00:00:41 <Tritonio> http://opensource.org/docs/osd
00:01:59 <pikhq> I'd call your license a semi-free license. . .
00:03:20 <pikhq> It's *legal*, but I *highly* dislike it.
00:04:17 <pikhq> I'm a fan of the GPL or LGPL for larger projects, and the BSD license for quick hacks.
00:04:40 <pikhq> (the BSD license is roughly equivalent to the MIT license)
00:05:49 <Tritonio> i know... what about the MIT licence? I mean what do you think about it?
00:06:08 <pikhq> Not my favorite license, merely because I'm a fan of copyleft.
00:06:42 <pikhq> I don't hate it, and I don't worship it, but I find it a fairly decent little license.
00:08:05 <Tritonio> why does gnu let people sell open source software?
00:08:15 <Tritonio> i mean what's the point of selling it.
00:08:44 <pikhq> First: GNU doesn't *do* open source software; they do free software.
00:09:04 <pikhq> Second: They consider the right to sell software just as important as the right to give it away for free.
00:09:54 <pikhq> Third: The Free Software Foundation, which runs the GNU Project, has some of their income from copies of GNU software.
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01:28:56 <RodgerTheGreat> can anybody think of an easy way to find/generate a list of a couple thousand of the most common words in the english language?
01:30:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I have an idea for an algorithm capable of automatically cracking substitution cyphers, but I'll need at least a small dictionary for it to be effective.
01:31:09 <oerjan> http://www.paulnoll.com/Books/Clear-English/English-3000-common-words.html
01:31:34 <RodgerTheGreat> my basic strategy is doing a letter-frequency analysis and coming up with a few dozen translation "guesses", and then ranking these based on how many english words they contain
01:32:16 <pikhq> Possible to get around, but that's true of any letter-frequency analysis.
01:32:22 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: I'll have to go through some contortions to get that in a convenient text file, but thanks!
01:32:43 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: of course. The goal is for it to work "most of the time"
01:33:41 <oerjan> there are other google hits for "common words english", but that was the longest on the first page
01:35:26 <SimonRC> the best way is to grab a block of text similar to what you're trying to analyse surely?
01:36:29 <oerjan> maybe simpler to extract: http://www.edict.com.hk/lexiconindex/frequencylists/words2000.htm
01:42:26 <RodgerTheGreat> what's the easiest commandline way to convert a text document to uppercase?
01:44:41 <oerjan> usual redirection, yes
01:46:19 <oerjan> oh, just stdin, you must use <dict.txt
01:48:33 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/files/dict.txt <- in case anyone else has a use for it
01:48:49 <oerjan> you could also use perl -ipe 'tr/a-z/A-Z/;' to do it to a file in place
01:50:13 <RodgerTheGreat> there. ~3000 words, all uppercase with no punctuation.
01:50:46 <RodgerTheGreat> that ought to be enough to get a reasonably accurate sampling
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13:09:47 <oklopol> but c++ pissed me off pretty bad :)
13:10:31 <oklopol> my fractals inspired me to make a game where tree-like fractals are grown
13:11:12 <oklopol> but i'd like to get a bit of natural selection in
13:11:35 <oklopol> basically you just buy random seeds, plant them and see what happens
13:11:48 <oklopol> you can then choose the seeds of the best trees you have
13:11:58 <oklopol> and they will somewhat resemble their parent
13:12:22 <oklopol> a tree supposedly grows for about 10 hours - 2 days :)
13:12:53 <oklopol> i'm thinking of calling it "seedfest"
13:13:55 <RodgerTheGreat> if C++ is frustrating you, have you considered writing it in Java?
13:16:52 <oklopol> i could use it in theory, i just don't know how you do graphics with it
13:19:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I am exceedingly skilled with 2D graphics, and I am fully familiar with Java's capabilities
13:19:19 <oklopol> 2d is exactly what i'm doing
13:19:28 <oklopol> and, real 2d, not just a 3d wannabe
13:19:39 <oklopol> like, two objects can't share a pixel
13:20:11 <oklopol> but light particles can jump over pixels to make it possible for interior branches to stay alive
13:21:02 <oklopol> i need some kind of a antialiasing for the branches
13:21:06 <RodgerTheGreat> doing things on the per-pixel level like that will require some tricky coding or it'll absolutely crawl
13:21:07 <oklopol> to make them grow smoothly
13:21:28 <oklopol> since everything consists of lines.
13:21:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I've never tried antialiasing, but I've done some basic blur filters, so I think I can handle it
13:21:53 <oklopol> and, it's not actually pixels, zooming and scaling is possible
13:21:58 <oklopol> it's just two lines can't cross.
13:22:30 <oklopol> i could just iterate pixels near branches and make a metaball-kinda line out of them
13:23:14 <oklopol> i need a bit of antialiasing, because i want them to grow in such a way that the growth can never be seen
13:23:36 <oklopol> so that even if you stare at it without blinking for 7 hours, you can't see a single movement
13:24:06 <oklopol> i've made a tree-growth simulator a few years ago
13:24:38 <oklopol> but it just drew lines as the trees grew, and you could clearly see it grow upwards one pixel at the time
13:24:46 <oklopol> no matter how slow a growth
13:26:35 <RodgerTheGreat> essentially, you just need to add a line segment one pixel long, do a very slow fade from 0,0,0 to 0,255,0 (or whatever), and then merge the line segments
13:29:08 <oklopol> you mean, draw many lines next to each othr?
13:30:37 <oklopol> i could do just that, plus end it in a half-circle
13:31:33 <RodgerTheGreat> are you more interested in making these look/grow like physical trees, or are you more inclined towards mathematical patterns?
13:31:57 <RodgerTheGreat> it could be interesting to model the effects of sunlight and plant growth hormones
13:32:16 <oklopol> i just want to see what happens
13:32:40 <oklopol> i'm not going for anything spesific
13:33:03 <oklopol> the fact lines can't cross will make the trees look pretty weird, i think
13:33:08 <RodgerTheGreat> on a side note, this is freaking awesome: http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2007/06/atari_flashback.php
13:33:14 <oklopol> and if they're too dense, branches start dying
13:33:21 <oklopol> because sunlight won't hit them
13:33:39 <RodgerTheGreat> so you're actually talking about something resembling a cellular automaton
13:34:15 <oklopol> why would that resemble a ca?
13:34:51 <RodgerTheGreat> it's the same sort of rule system- small parts of the plant grow only in relation to local forces
13:35:28 <oklopol> well, i just want something to happen other than just fractals to make any natural selection -ish make any difference :)
13:35:53 <oklopol> true, the concept of dense -> death, not dense enough -> death resembles a ca
13:36:18 <oklopol> but actually, it's more the fact that a simple system like a ca will resemble a complex system with that kinda behaviour
13:38:10 <oklopol> you can also cut the trees and poke them
13:38:28 <oklopol> because they're pretty easy to simulate
13:39:02 <oklopol> it'll just basically be a fun screensaver, because it's not really a game
13:39:20 <RodgerTheGreat> a little bit of physics, a little bit of a particle effect...
13:39:39 <oklopol> but 2d, and doesn't have to be that realistic
13:41:11 <oklopol> hmm, i'll continue now, or start from the beginning with java, if you tell me what to do :)
13:41:23 <oklopol> if i have to dl and install something, we're in trouble.
13:43:08 <oklopol> i use it, i don't know what sdk is
13:43:44 <oklopol> i've done about 200 java progs :)
13:44:13 <RodgerTheGreat> do you just want to learn how to make an applet or something?
13:44:13 <oklopol> i'm just very dense about anything other than programming
13:44:44 <oklopol> can applets be run without a browser? (:P)
13:45:11 <RodgerTheGreat> you need *either* a browser or the appletviewer application (part of the SDK)
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13:47:18 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: are there working java >> exe converters?
13:47:27 <oklopol> i mean, ones that actually work
13:47:42 <oklopol> i don't care about whitespace
13:48:03 <RodgerTheGreat> some people tell me GCJ works really well, but I don't particularly trust it
13:48:21 <oklopol> i kinda need to get an exe
13:48:44 <oklopol> there will pretty much be 1 player for my game :)
13:50:47 <oklopol> or make my own java -> exe
13:51:08 <oklopol> just an exe with a java vm inside it :P
13:52:07 <oklopol> i mean, that basically the exe will just-in-time install java.
13:52:16 <RodgerTheGreat> well, either way you do something like that, you might want to do this as a Java Application
13:52:35 <RodgerTheGreat> this makes graphics a bit more complex, but still entirely doable.
13:53:19 <oklopol> tbh i don't really care how i do it, the functionality is all that matters
13:53:26 <oklopol> and graphics matters a bit
13:53:41 <oklopol> perhaps the java applet is good enough
13:56:37 <oklopol> perhaps i should start, you did indeed give me the applet already :D
13:57:48 <RodgerTheGreat> the only thing you should need to know is that in the paint method, use the Graphics object you're provided
13:58:19 <RodgerTheGreat> look up the javadocs on Graphics() and you should be set
13:58:23 <oklopol> will i write a main somewhere? \:
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13:58:43 <oklopol> paint is called at every frame?
13:59:30 <oklopol> will it flash like crazy? :P
13:59:41 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CogEngine/Gears.htm <- this uses some external classes and things of mine, but it's a reasonable example
13:59:56 <oklopol> i guess an empty screen is never buffered, yeah
14:03:04 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: did you make that?
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14:03:45 <oklofok> well... could be any rodger!
14:05:20 <RodgerTheGreat> "javac whatever.java" and then "appletviewer whatever.java"
14:06:05 <RodgerTheGreat> appletviewer actually takes an HTML document with an <applet> tag in it as a parameter, but if you notice, I've cleverly placed one in a comment in the main source
14:10:06 <oklopol> applet not initialized... is this the stuff i should read myself?
14:11:30 <oklofok> it just says applet not initialized in the applet itself :D
14:11:45 <oklofok> Start: applet not initialized
14:12:53 <oklopol> appletviewer whatever.JAVA?
14:13:02 <oklopol> i compile it, then open the source?
14:13:56 <oklopol> well, i understood that a bit wrong
14:14:12 <oklopol> i changed the classes name, so i gotta change the code as well
14:14:18 <oklopol> but javac is needless then?
14:15:15 <oklopol> err... can i get that fullscreen?=
14:15:29 <oklopol> or at least the Applet menu out?
14:15:54 <RodgerTheGreat> if you run in-browser, there are no menus or status bars
14:16:24 <oklopol> well, i guess that doesn't matter
14:16:38 <oklopol> perhaps i should read and stop bugging you
14:17:07 <oklopol> can i adjust it in the code?
14:17:12 <oklopol> or did you just say i can?
14:17:40 <oklopol> can i make it unresizable?
14:18:46 <RodgerTheGreat> and there's probably a way to keep appletviewer from allowing it, too
14:18:57 <oklopol> i see, well i'll just start making it
14:19:10 <oklopol> if i figure the drawing functions
14:19:21 <RodgerTheGreat> Applets have a couple odd limitations you should know about and plan for
14:19:50 <RodgerTheGreat> primarily, applets are limited in their ability to do file I/O without a security check
14:20:33 <RodgerTheGreat> well, loading is pretty easy. Saving is another story.
14:20:36 <oklopol> i need file io... to that extent :)
14:21:28 <RodgerTheGreat> alright, then I suggest you play with Java Webstart and Java applications. However, applets are still an extremely good way to become familiar with Graphics
14:21:46 <oklopol> do graphics work the same way in all them?
14:22:07 <oklopol> i that how i draw, g.xxx()?
14:22:58 <oklopol> i'll make the trees draw themselves, so it doesn't really matter who tells them to draw, i can wrap that easily into any system if drawing works the same way
14:30:53 <oklopol> not many can get a programming tool work!
14:32:37 <oklopol> why does my code go into paint and not into update?
14:51:59 <oklopol> it's just this is a very verbose language...
14:52:11 <oklopol> every language has something i can't stand :)
14:52:30 <oklopol> oklotalk has the minor flaw of not existing.
14:53:06 <RodgerTheGreat> in Java, verbosity is not usually redundant, and exists to make sure things work how one expects them to
14:53:29 <oklopol> i guess, but doesn't change my view :)
14:53:33 <RodgerTheGreat> few languages are as consistent as Java with a comparable library
14:53:47 <oklopol> for(GrowNode i:gns)i.grow(); is safe?
14:54:03 <oklopol> i mean, is i mutable there
14:55:00 <RodgerTheGreat> if I recall correctly, builtin iterators pass by reference
14:55:32 <oklopol> there are some quirks... jsut don't remember what exactly :\
14:55:48 <oklopol> it's just i don't like making an index based iteration
14:55:51 <RodgerTheGreat> Java has none of C/C++'s bizarre copy/refer complexity
14:56:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I like making index-based iterations, because iterators imply overhead and obscure code
14:56:45 <oklopol> i don't care about obscurity
14:56:45 <RodgerTheGreat> it's also more predictable when you want to remove things from the list while iterating
14:57:12 <oklopol> i guess i'll do it with indices
14:57:17 <RodgerTheGreat> say I'm indexing through elements of a Vector or something
15:04:03 <oklopol> is there anything like c's atan2() in java?
15:04:23 <oklopol> for getting direction out of cartesian coordinates
15:04:43 <oklopol> not that i couldn't make it myself, i'm just being javaish :)
15:06:16 <oklopol> well, i guess Math.atan2() might be close yeah :P
15:06:24 <oklopol> just figured i have javadocs open
15:06:40 <oklopol> i'll never get used to googling :P
15:07:03 <oklopol> guess i will once i can use google from irc
15:07:14 <oklopol> or once okloOS is finished
15:07:26 <oklopol> i have a completely new system for networking
15:08:05 <oklopol> once i manage to make oklotalk, i can start worrying about setting up an operating system :D
15:09:12 <oklopol> heh, i didn't even need atan2 :DD
15:11:33 <oklopol> is it okay to do Foo bar=baz.getQiddy();bar.change();?
15:11:45 <oklopol> and not call setQiddy then
15:12:08 <oklopol> because i already effectively mutated whatever was returned from getQiddy
15:12:45 <oklopol> or should i add baz.setQiddy(bar); after those
15:14:03 <oklopol> so i mean, i access something by a getter... baz.getQiddy() here... then i mutate it, bar.change() because i stored it in bar. now i mutated the exact object getQiddy returned
15:14:37 <oklopol> so do i have to do baz.setQiddy(bar) even though it doesn't really do anything?
15:15:12 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'm being clear here but i can't be very objective about that of course \:
15:15:21 <RodgerTheGreat> if you get a reference to an object, and then modify things related to that reference, you don't have to "put the reference back"
15:15:59 <oklopol> i just thought it might be javaish to put it back
15:16:25 <oklopol> just doing >=1 comments per 200 lines of code might be javaish
15:16:47 <oklopol> well perhaps if i was payed for it
15:16:56 <RodgerTheGreat> when I properly Javadoc my code, it generally doubles in size
15:17:05 <oklopol> i like my code pretty and indecipherable
15:17:50 <oklopol> i'll prolly start doing that sooner or later
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16:06:31 <oklopol> haha, couldn't get it working
16:06:49 <oklopol> but i then realized i had changed the code in paint when first playing with it :D
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17:11:28 <oklopol> can't figure out how to make fading with g.drawLine :|
17:11:44 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it won't look good if i just put them next to each other...
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18:25:46 * Tritonio is still trying to make the license.
18:29:34 <lament> yeah, it's more fun than coding
18:50:12 <lament> somebody implemented an esolang in D? talk about esoteric
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21:01:19 <Tritonio_> what >exactly< the second paragraph of the MIT licence means?
21:10:56 <Tritonio_> could i replace the phrase "The above copyright notice and this permission notice" with "This license"
21:31:56 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: how the heck can i debug an applet? :P
21:32:21 <oklopol> i can't do any output unless i take Graphics everywhere and no other output can be done
21:32:31 <oklopol> guess i could use exceptions...
21:32:46 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: did you know i'm a lazy guy?
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21:53:59 <ihope> oklopol: I see you've managed to get #kilbot.
22:09:12 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: you can use System.out.println if you run appletviewer from the console
22:44:04 <SimonRC> Every once in a while, one comes across a product whose existance one had never previously expected: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjM1J_23QJo
22:44:39 <SimonRC> Though some of the gags in Space Balls should have been a giveaway.
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22:54:14 <GregorR-L> I made a sprite-based 3D engine in JavaScript :P
23:00:33 <GregorR-L> http://gregorr.homelinux.org/js3d/3d.html
23:02:14 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: it allows AOL users to reach you?
23:02:40 <GregorR-L> oklopol: Just move around, but it's the basis for a 3D engine
23:04:00 <oklopol> if you can, i didn't find the key
23:04:11 <oklopol> i mean, can you do anything 3d yet?
23:04:21 <SimonRC> oklopol: the arrow keys change your angle and move you back and forward
23:04:39 <SimonRC> thus you can walk round it you see it from different angles
23:04:42 <oklopol> i though they moved me sideways
23:04:45 <SimonRC> the rotation is very slow though
23:05:19 <GregorR-L> SimonRC: Is it slow as in low framerate, or just slow? I mean, it is pretty slow :P
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23:29:59 <SimonRC> you have to hold the button down for many seconds on my box to doa 360 degree turn
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23:33:16 <GregorR-L> SimonRC: Oh, right, that turning - yeah, that's slow :P
23:34:49 <SimonRC> Seriously, that is a sick and pointless abuse of Javascript.
23:35:04 <SimonRC> I think Google might be interested.
23:35:18 <GregorR-L> Only once I turn it into a WiiFPS :P
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