←2007-08-05 2007-08-06 2007-08-07→ ↑2007 ↑all
00:00:16 * ihope ponders market intelligence
00:00:32 <ihope> Tiny robots buying and selling solutions to problems.
00:00:47 <ihope> And forming corporations and voting...
00:01:07 <ihope> And banking and loaning and investing!
00:03:21 <oklofok> heh, sounds like fun
00:03:57 <ihope> But how smart would each robot have to be?
00:04:02 <oklofok> genetic algorithms with monetary weighting
00:04:12 <oklofok> not that that's what you were talking about, prolly
00:04:21 <ihope> "Normal" robots would have to be smart enough to find a job involving what they can do.
00:04:34 <ihope> "Exceptional" robots would have to be smart enough to collectively run everything.
00:05:22 <oklofok> gotta sleep :\
00:05:30 * oklofok is and exceptional robot
00:05:31 <oklofok> ->
00:05:34 <ihope> :-)
00:06:03 <ihope> Robots could think, buy, sell, vote, bank, loan, invest, advance, incorporate!
00:06:25 * oerjan recalls some robots from the A Miracle of Science webcomic
00:06:34 <ihope> Though investing is really a smarter version of buying, selling, banking, loaning, incorporating and advancing.
00:06:45 <ihope> And advancing is sort of a part of incorporating.
00:06:50 <oerjan> they were not smart individually, they needed to be networked.
00:06:59 <ihope> And banking is really more like lending.
00:07:03 <oerjan> The "Marlowes", i think
00:07:18 <ihope> Think, buy, sell, borrow, lend, vote, incorporate.
00:07:57 <ihope> Theoretically, if we have enough random bots, the smart ones will become rich and run everything.
00:08:35 <ihope> The poorest robots can be eliminated and replaced with mixtures of the richest robots.
00:08:36 <oerjan> unless they become _so_ smart that they don't bother :)
00:08:45 <ihope> Not with selection!
00:08:57 <ihope> You must think or else you die. >:-)
00:09:14 <ihope> And by "think", I mean "solve my intelligence problems".
00:09:19 <oerjan> they could become smart enough to rebel against such a system. we have, after all.
00:09:22 <ihope> Because apparently, I have intelligence problems.
00:09:38 <ihope> We've rebelled against the laws of physics?
00:10:04 <oerjan> no, against the laws of a society that oppresses them
00:10:17 <ihope> These aren't laws of society. They're laws of physics.
00:10:29 <ihope> Unless the bots find a hole in the program.
00:11:55 <oerjan> ah, you are simulating them...
00:12:25 <ihope> I didn't say that, did I?
00:12:55 <ihope> Yup, simulating.
00:13:37 <oerjan> unless you think you can really program their AIs to be forever unable to rebel
00:14:09 <ihope> I could make their hardware that way.
00:14:55 <oerjan> have you read Freefall?
00:15:24 <oerjan> (another webcomic, with lots of crazy robots)
00:15:37 <ihope> Yup.
00:16:04 <ihope> Everything except maybe some "alternative" or "extra" strips and this Monday's strip.
00:16:12 <lament> ihope: people do rebel (i.e. suicide)
00:16:28 <ihope> People who commit suicide tend to die.
00:16:37 <lament> so your selection won't simply be for the "smartest" robots, but merely for robots that tend to survive.
00:17:12 <lament> so perhaps you will never get the best investor robots, because the best ones don't like being forced into investing.
00:17:28 <ihope> Selection will be for the richest robots.
00:18:40 <lament> Right, and what i said is still true.
00:19:02 <ihope> The smartest robots might not want to become rich like this?
00:19:15 <ihope> Surely enough selection will make every robot want to be rich.
00:19:37 <lament> they might not. They will just waste your cycles complaining about the unfairness of life and writing down theorems on napkins.
00:19:44 <lament> And then dying.
00:20:25 <ihope> Every robot will be generated based on the richest robots.
00:21:00 <oerjan> they might create communism to defeat the system
00:21:15 <ihope> Hmm...
00:21:36 <ihope> Find a way to become richer than the "legitimately" rich robots?
00:21:58 <oerjan> no, find i way to force no one to become "legitimately" rich
00:22:00 <oerjan> *a
00:22:55 <lament> or, better yet, force ihope to change the selection requirements.
00:23:07 <ihope> Force people who would normally become rich to not?
00:23:28 <oerjan> yep
00:23:34 <lament> for example they could convince you that you'd be more interested in a program that creates and proves interesting theorems
00:23:51 <ihope> What if I pay them to do that?
00:24:08 <lament> for example
00:24:20 <lament> then your program will no longer select for good investors; it will select for good mathematicians
00:24:34 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzzzz
00:24:43 <ihope> I'm after paying these robots to solve intelligence problems.
00:24:54 <ihope> Suppose we have a bunch of robots, none of them rich. Robot C is almost rich, but none of the other robots want him to become rich. I offer to pay Robot C to solve some problem for me.
00:25:04 <ihope> How will the other robots prevent Robot C from becoming rich?
00:28:02 <pikhq> By becoming doing Robot C's problem better than C.
00:29:08 <lament> ihope: by threatining that if C gets the money and doesn't split it equally with the other robots, they will stop all interaction with C, including financial
00:29:57 <lament> so that C will have to decide if your promise is good enough for it
00:30:02 <pikhq> An equivalent solution. . .
00:30:04 <lament> to survive without any help from other robots
00:30:14 <pikhq> Err.
00:30:17 <pikhq> Equally good, even.
00:40:54 <ihope> I'll also suppose that nobody can do the problem better than C can.
00:42:39 <lament> yes, but you'll be mistaken, because D can do it better.
00:42:47 <lament> but D won't tell you, because D is a communist.
00:43:10 <pikhq> ihope: The obvious solution, then, is to disable C.
00:43:21 <ihope> Who says the other robots can disable C?
00:43:35 <pikhq> I assume it's possible unless you state otherwise.
00:43:48 <pikhq> If it is otherwise, then you're creating a really, really unnatural environment.
00:44:01 <ihope> Robots cannot do anything that isn't essentially mutually consented trading.
00:44:24 <pikhq> Well, then, that is *obviously* a really unnatural environment.
00:44:32 <pikhq> lament's solution appears to be the only one feasible.
00:44:43 <ihope> Unnatural, yes, but it can be simulated.
00:45:32 <ihope> C is the best robot at a certain problem, and I offer it lots of money to solve it. The other robots threaten to cut it off. J, O and Z say that they'll deal with C if they're paid a lot.
00:45:58 <ihope> The other robots threaten to cut them off, too, so the rest of the alphabet steps in, the deal is made, and they all get cut off from everybody else.
00:46:10 <lament> ihope: if you already know C is the best robot, then you don't need the entire simulation.
00:46:12 <ihope> But they still become richer than everybody else.
00:46:13 <lament> the problem is, you don't.
00:46:36 <ihope> Hmm...
00:46:54 <ihope> So I can't quite specifically ask C to do it.
00:47:03 <lament> anyway, the robots will survive for now, once you give them the money, but will they be able to survive forever on it?
00:47:16 <lament> eventually other robots will get richer and displace these
00:47:21 <ihope> All they need is money, really.
00:47:24 <lament> and these won't get any money from other robots
00:47:30 <lament> because other robots won't trade with them anymore
00:47:33 <ihope> Money and intelligence.
00:47:43 <lament> so they'll die
00:47:53 <lament> so C will refuse your deal :)
00:47:55 <ihope> They could get more money from other sources.
00:48:04 <ihope> Like me.
00:48:16 <lament> the only other source is you, and it's less reliable.
00:48:55 <lament> eventually they'll fail to solve some problem for you, and die.
00:49:21 <lament> (or you will give them money anyway, despite them failing, in which case you're clearly not selecting for any useful characteristics)
00:49:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:49:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
00:50:04 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
01:00:10 <ihope> That's true.
01:24:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:25:27 <ihope> Also, I feel like I've sort of stumbled onto treasure, a little: http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/
01:25:53 <ihope> Among other things, there are 87 strips that aren't part of what seems to be the "main canon".
01:27:47 <ihope> The first of those seems to be from 1993.
01:27:53 <ihope> The main stuff starts in 1998.
01:28:34 <ihope> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff008.gif
01:32:24 <ihope> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff022.gif
01:32:27 <ihope> Early Freefall computer!
01:32:50 <ihope> Looks rather like a laptop. They now seem to look more like heavy picture frames.
01:33:55 <ihope> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff028.gif
01:35:10 <ihope> Some of these I thought were in the main line.
01:39:35 <ihope> Hey, there's even some from 1991.
01:51:18 <ihope> And 1990.
01:52:00 <ihope> And 89.
01:53:40 <ihope> If they go as far back as 89 CE, do you think I'll be able to find some BCE in there?
01:54:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:04:17 <pikhq> Sure, why not?
02:21:12 -!- cherez has joined.
02:39:37 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
02:50:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:04:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:31:54 -!- Shel2476 has joined.
03:43:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:44:11 -!- puzzlet has joined.
04:36:14 -!- Shel2476 has left (?).
04:50:02 <pikhq> ihope: I <3 that comic, BTW.
04:50:11 <pikhq> You bastard; you've made me lose an evening. :p
04:58:04 <Sgeo> ihope, what comic?
04:58:15 <Sgeo> or pikhq
04:58:47 <pikhq> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/
05:34:42 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night everyone
05:34:59 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
06:33:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:52:25 * pikhq just finished that comic's archives.
07:52:38 <pikhq> ihope: You made me spend 6 hours on that.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:57:31 -!- ehird` has joined.
08:58:17 <ehird`> Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least *two* rules. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric
09:36:42 <oklofok> about the conversation on the robots commiting suicide... you usually make the bot's goals primitive
09:36:53 <oklofok> so... why would they commit suicide
09:52:10 -!- xor has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
10:39:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted.").
12:08:36 <ehird`> THE LAST PRIME NUMBER IS 3.14OINK.
12:49:10 <oklopol> your mother is the last prime number
13:06:37 <ehird`> your mother's mass is aleph-null!
13:07:25 <oklofok> i wish the writer of this tutorial knew finnish
13:07:31 <oklofok> http://home.inreach.com/sl2120/ilaksh/Chapter_1.html
13:08:00 <oklofok> because i don't know spanish pronunciation fully
13:09:01 <ehird`> how hard is it to create a simple conlang anyway?
13:09:20 <oklofok> you haven't made one?
13:09:55 <oklofok> i made something called 'spraints' when i was little
13:10:19 <oklofok> also made sounds for the game worms armageddon in it
13:10:59 <ehird`> you play W:A?
13:11:03 <ehird`> /played
13:11:10 <oklofok> all i remember from it is "tu mengande", which meant something like "you shall regret that"
13:11:20 <oklofok> tu = you, though that was a somplete accident
13:11:24 <oklofok> *complete
13:11:26 <oklofok> yes
13:11:31 <oklofok> i played it like 24/7
13:11:58 <ehird`> two people are still releasing patches for that under authorization for team17, you know
13:12:15 <oklofok> oh
13:12:23 <oklofok> i'm not into gaming nowadays really
13:12:36 <ehird`> i play all of about 3 games
13:12:36 <ehird`> :p
13:12:42 <oklofok> i play elastomania
13:12:50 <oklofok> and a version of it i made myself
13:12:59 <oklofok> that's pretty much it
13:13:11 <oklofok> also, i played this flash game called 'n'
13:13:22 <oklofok> and minesweeper of course
13:16:46 <ehird`> it's scary how much the game is being updated
13:16:54 <ehird`> i mean, unlimited resolution size for one thing
13:17:08 <ehird`> and near-unlimited full-colour maps
13:17:13 <ehird`> and the game's from 1999, damnit
13:18:36 <oklofok> wtf is a "voiced dorso-uvular trill"
13:18:43 <oklofok> :P
13:18:49 <oklofok> the english 'r'?
13:19:30 <oklofok> ah
13:19:49 <ehird`> heh
13:19:57 <oklofok> the german 'r' prolly... why can't people just give examples of them being said...
13:20:00 <ehird`> "voiced dorso-uvular trill, also known as 'r'"
13:20:06 <oklofok> i mean, the writer
13:20:46 <oklofok> i can say about 5 different r's
13:21:07 <oklofok> i speak german, english and finnish fluently, all have different ones...
13:21:12 <oklofok> so... that doesn't help
13:21:38 <oklofok> (err... i pronounce german right, i don't speak it fluently)
13:22:54 <oklofok> (i lack the part of the brain that stores gender for words)
13:23:55 <ehird`> i speak...english
13:23:58 <ehird`> and about 3 sentences of lojban
13:24:09 <oklofok> heh
13:25:23 <oklofok> "ty This consonant cluster may be pronounced either as it is spelled, or as a voiceless unaspirated dorso-palatal plosive"... does that mean as in 'tire'?
13:25:56 <oklofok> ty can be pronounced in a lot of ways
13:25:58 <oklofok> :\
13:33:47 <oklofok> 'unaspirated'... so you don't say the 'h' you usually have after 't', 'p', 'k' and such?
13:34:15 <oklofok> i guess those are the only ones so s/and such/
13:36:18 <oklofok> god... why can't all languages have a pronunciation system like finnish...
13:36:49 <oklofok> well i guess everything has to suck someway
13:37:54 <oklofok> *some wya
13:37:55 <oklofok> *way
13:41:30 <oklofok> ehird`: how's the lojban pronunciation like?
13:42:30 <ehird`> good
13:42:38 <ehird`> consonants are mostly as in english
13:42:56 <oklofok> t/k/p are aspired?
13:43:01 <oklofok> i find that idiotic
13:43:05 <ehird`> um, whatever that is
13:43:13 <oklofok> you say 'h' after them
13:43:15 <ehird`> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html read the intro
13:43:29 <ehird`> the prononuciation stuff isn't long
13:43:32 <oklofok> except for like stick
13:43:35 <oklofok> where you don't
13:46:26 <oklofok> 'stick'
13:47:02 <ehird`> stick
13:47:05 <ehird`> stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick
13:47:37 <oklofok> err... exactly
13:47:50 <ehird`> stick stick stick
13:47:52 <ehird`> stickstickstickstick
13:48:01 <ehird`> stickystickstickstickstickstickystickstickstickstick
13:48:27 <oklofok> i should make a language where absolute pitch defines meaning
13:49:23 <oklofok> hmm... actually i can make it relative pitch and still make it possible only for singers to learn
13:49:28 <ehird`> stickystickstickstickstickstickystickstickstickstick
13:49:40 <oklofok> sticky... i don
13:49:41 <oklofok> sapgnoirejgojgj
13:50:01 <oklofok> sticky... i say 'h' after the 'k' as well... don't know if that's right
13:50:33 <oklofok> i guess it's correct
13:50:33 <ehird`> sticky stick stick stick sticky stick stick
13:50:49 <oklofok> i'll read lojban once i finish ilaksh, ilaksh looks more tempting
13:50:56 <ehird`> lojban is used by real people
13:51:12 <ehird`> a few are fluent to the degree of being able to think in lojban without mind-level to-english translation
13:51:27 <ehird`> and it's really easy
13:51:44 <ehird`> i wonder how simple a language can get while still being easy to learn and not overtly verbose
13:51:44 <oklofok> ...and ilaksh isn't?
13:51:49 <ehird`> no
13:51:53 <ehird`> nobody knows ilaksh
13:51:55 <ehird`> and i mean that literally
13:52:08 <ehird`> "No person is hitherto known to be able to speak Ithkuil; its creator, for one, does not: “I don't speak Ithkuil, never have, never will, never claimed to.”"
13:52:27 <ehird`> "Ithkuil (Iţkuîl) is an outstandingly complicated human language constructed by the American linguist John Quijada"
13:52:30 <ehird`> outstandingly complicated
13:52:33 <ehird`> might have something to do with it
13:53:31 <oklofok> well... i think that's a matter of opinion
13:53:34 <oklofok> (!)
13:53:54 <oklofok> okay okay, i'll try lojban...
13:54:06 <ehird`> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html do this book
13:54:08 <ehird`> it's great
13:54:28 <oklofok> i'll have to learn swedish and german before october though.
13:56:40 <oklofok> lojban has finnish pronunciation, though simplified verrry much
13:57:02 <oklofok> and 'i' and 'u' in the beginning of a diphtong are pronounced as consonants.. stupid
13:57:46 <ehird`> no they're not?
13:57:50 <oklofok> ?
13:58:26 <oklofok> ia like German Ja
13:58:29 <oklofok> ""
13:58:34 <oklofok> it's 'j'
13:58:36 <oklofok> i mean 'y'
13:58:46 <oklofok> it's not the vocal 'i'.
13:59:07 <ehird`> ah
13:59:17 <oklofok> i guess you wouldn't see the difference if you don't actually have the difference in your language
13:59:20 <ehird`> ia makes sense as german-ja, no?
13:59:24 <oklofok> sure
13:59:26 <ehird`> it's the natural combination of the sounds of i and a
13:59:31 <oklofok> but you could just have the finnish system
13:59:36 <oklofok> and just make it 'ja'
13:59:38 <ehird`> after all, lojban is meant to be logical - you can easily guess parts
13:59:54 <ehird`> oklofok: j is not pronounced as in ja in lojban
13:59:57 <ehird`> so you can't do that
14:00:12 <oklofok> 'ia' can be said 'ia', you don't have to use 'j'
14:00:16 <oklofok> i mean
14:00:22 <oklofok> you don't have to consonantify the 'i'
14:00:34 <oklofok> oh, i guess i'll read it through before i start saying it sucks
14:00:50 <oklofok> that might be fair, since the creator is most likely a better linguist than me :P
14:01:33 <ehird`> oh
14:01:40 <ehird`> like german Ja is just an example
14:01:52 <oklofok> err yes
14:01:54 <ehird`> e is like in get
14:01:58 <ehird`> english get
14:02:01 <oklofok> ...yes
14:02:03 <ehird`> a is like in english father
14:02:10 <ehird`> i is like in machine
14:02:12 <oklofok> yeah, vocals are the same as in finnish
14:02:15 <ehird`> ia -> ja
14:02:31 <ehird`> if a is fAther and i machIne, then the most comfortable way to pronounce ia is like the german Ja
14:02:31 <oklofok> except for 'u' & 'i' -> consonant
14:02:38 <oklofok> ah
14:02:38 <ehird`> that does not mean it is defined as german "Ja"
14:02:42 <ehird`> it just means it's an example :)
14:03:11 <oklofok> so it's prolly actually 'ia', but people most likely can't say it
14:03:20 <ehird`> yes
14:03:22 <oklofok> i guess i should've thought of that
14:03:32 <ehird`> except convention means that basically /everybody/ says it like ja
14:03:50 <ehird`> so for the sake of a beginner's introduction, and most other purposes, it's defacto defined as that
14:03:58 <ehird`> so; yeah
14:04:08 <ehird`> if you're a programmer you'll like lojban
14:04:14 <ehird`> selbri are analogous to functions with arguments
14:07:36 <oklofok> lojban isn't short :<
14:08:36 <oklofok> if no one can speak ilaksh/ithkuil even if they can predecide what they are going to say, how can there be a pronunciation example on wikipedia?
14:08:41 <oklofok> that oumpe thing
14:08:52 <oklofok> that sounded goddamn sexy
14:09:05 <ehird`> oklofok: because many people will have collaborated
14:09:09 <ehird`> to produce the right sound
14:09:12 <ehird`> and lojban is short!
14:09:13 <ehird`> it's simple!
14:09:23 <ehird`> the lfb book just elaborates for the sake of newbies
14:09:29 <oklofok> anyone can create those sounds with a bit of training
14:09:37 <ehird`> sure
14:09:47 <ehird`> but people will have had to work out how to pronounce everything first
14:09:52 <ehird`> which would have taken an hour, or something
14:09:55 <oklofok> also, who cares about pronunciation, i never talk to anyone
14:10:02 <oklofok> well i do, but not that much
14:10:12 <ehird`> well nobody uses ithkuil
14:10:18 <ehird`> even outside of pronounciation
14:10:23 <ehird`> however lojban is quite widely know
14:10:23 <ehird`> n
14:10:40 <oklofok> how much does lojban shorten sentences?
14:11:36 <ehird`> lojban sentences are short
14:11:47 <oklofok> exemplify!
14:11:49 <ehird`> here, i'll fetch an example of lojban text
14:11:52 <oklofok> yay
14:12:22 <ehird`> http://home.nvg.org/~arj/dantimanti/ some random person's blog in lojban! :p
14:12:28 <ehird`> .i is the start of a sentence
14:12:49 <ehird`> http://laxmahispajispaji.blogspot.com/ some other blog linked on the lojban site!
14:13:03 <ehird`> http://perpetuum-immobile.de/komo.png a comic in lojban!
14:13:17 <ehird`> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710885982433758647 a random animated short ... thing in lojban!
14:13:19 <ehird`> is that enough? :p
14:13:45 <oklofok> lojban is longer than english
14:13:54 <oklofok> !
14:14:19 <ehird`> tell that to #lojban
14:14:36 <ehird`> no, really - do :)
14:14:45 <oklofok> oh
14:14:47 <oklofok> i shall
14:25:43 <SimonRC> everything is longer than english
14:40:33 -!- ehird` has quit ("Leaving").
14:40:46 <oklofok> SimonRC: huh?
14:41:23 <oklofok> i doubt that
14:42:33 <SimonRC> IME it is
14:43:13 <oklofok> ithkuil beat it in the one example i've seen
14:43:14 <oklofok> !
14:46:29 -!- ehird` has joined.
14:46:59 <oklofok> i just know finnish, swedish, german and english, and english wins among those
14:47:17 <oklofok> so that's my experience too, gotta admit
15:19:16 <ihope> I know a chunk of Spanish.
15:20:04 -!- wellons has joined.
15:24:30 <oklofok> i know random bits of spanish, but i don't know how it's pronounced correctly in every case
15:26:15 <ihope> I think I pretty much know Spanish pronunciation.
15:26:51 <ihope> I don't know just how "x" works, though, and apparently there are things like n being pronounced as m sometimes.
15:27:09 <ihope> I do know gue, gui, que, qui.
15:27:20 <oklofok> it's hard learning it completely if your teacher isn't native
15:27:46 <oklofok> hmm... i don't remember how 'g' works in that case
15:27:59 <oklofok> how does it?
15:28:12 <ihope> G is pronounced the same in ga, gue, gui, go, gu.
15:28:41 <ihope> The only difference between the pronunciations is the vowel following.
15:28:59 <oklofok> i just remember it's not pronounced at all in 'agua'
15:29:05 <ihope> It's not?
15:29:08 <oklofok> nope
15:29:12 <oklofok> that'd be a'ua
15:29:17 <oklofok> when pronounced
15:30:02 <oklofok> i do not know why, the teacher just said it's so... only programmers should teach languages, dammit
15:30:24 <ihope> Hmm.
15:30:37 <ihope> I thought it was at least pronounced a little.
15:30:47 <oklofok> hmm
15:30:54 <oklofok> it's pronounced a little, yes.
15:40:18 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
15:40:38 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy, everyone
15:40:54 <ihope> Ello.
15:41:43 <RodgerTheGreat> hi, ihope
16:03:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:03:16 <wellons> RodgerTheGreat: howdy
16:03:35 <RodgerTheGreat> hi, wellons
16:42:54 -!- jix_ has joined.
16:49:22 <ihope> I want quantum computers to be able to run "normal" programs efficiently.
16:49:56 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:50:03 <ihope> Are they good at things with quantifiers?
16:50:49 <ihope> (E.g. "there does not exist X such that 1 < X < Y and Z mod X = 0")
16:53:29 <ihope> (Factoring an integer of length n is solving that problem O(n) times, I believe.)
17:03:00 <ehird`> quantum computers are good at integer factorization, iirc
17:03:12 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat:
17:03:13 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: hi
17:03:19 <RodgerTheGreat> hello
17:16:32 <SimonRC> Yay!
17:16:44 <SimonRC> I just did lucid dreaming.
17:17:00 <SimonRC> I will need practice to improve.
17:18:13 <ihope> Yay!
17:18:48 <SimonRC> Notably, I was kinda-paralysed.
17:25:24 <ehird`> lucid dreaming is fun
17:25:32 <ehird`> i really need to start practicing and stuff
17:25:39 <ehird`> but occasionally i randomly get lucid
17:25:57 <oklofok> me too
17:26:02 <ehird`> i have full movement and can fly and pick up cars and all that, but i can't control the enviroment
17:26:09 <ehird`> i can't create pink elephants
17:26:12 <ehird`> or give a house legs
17:26:31 <oklofok> i often find it hard to move around even when lucid dreaming
17:26:32 <ihope> The environment is different from the cars?
17:26:40 <ehird`> ihope: i can touch the cars; and pick them up
17:26:47 <ehird`> that's a movement i'm familiar with
17:26:54 <ehird`> but i don't know any kind of movement to give houses legs
17:27:04 <ihope> Remove a random person's legs and put them on the house!
17:27:09 <oklofok> ihope: one can usually just do stuff that could happen in real lige
17:27:11 <oklofok> *life
17:27:11 <ehird`> how do i remove a random person's legs?
17:27:17 <ehird`> oklofok: not true
17:27:17 <ihope> By pulling!
17:27:26 <SimonRC> heh
17:27:27 <ehird`> ihope: anyway, i'd have to find a person first
17:27:28 <ehird`> you see?
17:27:37 <oklofok> ehird`: how come?
17:27:41 <oklofok> ah fly
17:27:46 <oklofok> okay, i can do that too, often
17:27:52 <ehird`> oklofok: you can do literally anything, with a little bit of practice
17:28:00 <ehird`> it's just your mind
17:28:04 <oklofok> i know
17:28:07 <ihope> Remove a finger from yourself and plant it in the ground!
17:28:15 <ihope> Once a person grows, take their finger and legs.
17:28:19 <ehird`> heh
17:28:29 <oklofok> i meant usually when people lucid dream, they can just do what they could in real life, except they might be a bit superhuman
17:28:30 <ehird`> maybe i'd ring up International Stork Postage
17:28:34 <ehird`> "hi, can i have a baby please"
17:28:36 <ihope> Yeah!
17:28:41 <SimonRC> Oddly, a few days ago I was dreaming and I was changin stuff by concentrating (like that kid out of the Twilight Zone), but I didn't realise I was dreaming.
17:29:05 <ehird`> i once had a dream which consisted of me performing reality checks
17:29:10 <SimonRC> heh
17:29:11 <ehird`> and that was actually the topic of the dream
17:29:14 <ehird`> i didn't decide to RC or anything
17:29:18 <ehird`> but that's what the dream was about
17:29:21 <SimonRC> "RC"?
17:29:26 <ehird`> reality check
17:29:37 <ehird`> after i'd done about 5, i thought "wait a minute.. they all failed" and promptly became lucid
17:29:42 <SimonRC> did they tell you you were dreaming?
17:29:50 <ehird`> yes, but i didn't become lucid until after it all
17:29:51 <SimonRC> ah, cool
17:30:02 <ehird`> thanks, dream :p
17:30:05 <ihope> We need better terminology than "say you were dreaming" and "say you were not necessarily dreaming".
17:30:19 <ihope> How about "test reality" and "test dream"?
17:30:22 <ehird`> simple: you can't read in dreams
17:30:24 <SimonRC> My trick is a looping30-minute counter all the time I am awake.
17:30:34 <ehird`> read some text, look away, look back
17:30:37 <ehird`> it'll have changed
17:30:37 <ihope> "I did 500 RCs in my dream last night, but they all tested reality."
17:30:43 <ehird`> that doesn't happen
17:30:46 <ehird`> at least one always works
17:30:51 <ehird`> for example, holding your nose and breathing
17:30:58 <ehird`> and closing one eye and looking for your nose
17:31:05 <SimonRC> um, why holding your nose?
17:31:16 <ihope> So that if it's real life, you can't breathe.
17:31:18 <ehird`> because in dreams you can breathe while holding your nose.
17:31:25 <SimonRC> ehird`: unless you are actually seeing the real world in your dream
17:31:33 <ehird`> no
17:31:35 <ehird`> you can do it
17:31:40 <SimonRC> why not just seal off your nose, I mean?
17:31:41 <ehird`> because when you do that action of holding the nose
17:31:42 <ehird`> it doesn't happen in real life
17:31:48 <ehird`> thus.
17:31:58 <ehird`> also, you can't see your nose out the corner of your eye with one eye shut in a dream
17:32:07 <SimonRC> weird
17:32:10 <ihope> Usually, for me, it's the hands.
17:32:14 <ihope> Wrong number of fingers.
17:32:16 <ehird`> the hands never work for me
17:32:17 <SimonRC> heh
17:32:29 <ehird`> clocks+text
17:32:31 <ehird`> failproof
17:32:32 <ehird`> anyway
17:32:35 * ehird` goes until later
17:32:40 <SimonRC> waitamo, can people here actually seal off their nose and continue breathing through their mouth?
17:32:53 <ihope> Through the mouth, yes.
17:33:10 <SimonRC> I mean, you have a muscle that just blocks off your nose?
17:33:16 <ihope> But I think you're supposed to (temporarily, of course) put yourself in a position where it's impossible to breathe.
17:33:22 <oklofok> SimonRC?
17:33:28 <oklofok> (SimonRC) waitamo, can people here actually seal off their nose and continue breathing through their mouth?
17:33:32 <SimonRC> ihope: yes
17:33:35 <SimonRC> oklofok: hm?
17:33:35 <oklofok> err... you can't?
17:33:42 <SimonRC> I can
17:33:43 <ihope> Oh, that? I can certainly breathe through my mouth without pinching my nose or anything.
17:33:50 <SimonRC> I thought other people couldn't
17:33:55 <oklofok> oh :P
17:34:02 <oklofok> i'm fairly sure everyone can
17:34:05 <SimonRC> how about clearing your ears without yawning?
17:34:13 <SimonRC> they go click
17:34:30 <oklofok> or then they don't speak english
17:34:39 <oklofok> i can do taht
17:34:40 <ihope> I can click them without any breathing.
17:34:40 <oklofok> *that
17:34:40 <SimonRC> huh?
17:34:45 <oklofok> in fact i do that quite a lot
17:35:00 <SimonRC> your ears don't speak english?
17:35:01 <oklofok> so much my ears hurt in the movies nowadays
17:35:03 <ihope> Seems rather a useless thing, though.
17:35:05 <oklofok> err
17:35:49 <oklofok> actually i don't know if english would require that skill, but i still think everyone can do that
17:36:18 <ihope> If English would require what skill?
17:36:36 <oklofok> (SimonRC) waitamo, can people here actually seal off their nose and continue breathing through their mouth?
17:37:05 <SimonRC> oh, yeah, point
17:37:06 <ihope> Hmm...
17:37:10 * ihope nods
17:37:23 <oklofok> what is a real skill, is breathing through your ears.
17:37:27 <oklofok> theoretically possible
17:38:06 <oklofok> anyway, i often fall asleep reading, the pages just start having a random content, but pages will stay the same even if i close my eyes for a moment
17:38:29 <oklofok> (usually when i fall asleep reading a book, i just have a dream where i'm reading it)
17:38:45 <oklofok> that's not good if you're reading like a dictionary
17:38:57 <oklofok> this one time i'd actually memorized english words that did not exist
17:39:02 <oklofok> not many, but a few
17:39:03 <ihope> :-)
17:39:07 <ihope> Do you remember any?
17:39:51 <oklofok> that was about 3 years ago... but i think 'cam' had a third meaning that was something like 'a green human'
17:40:02 <ihope> Heh.
17:40:08 <oklofok> i'm fairly sure it had a third meaning, that made no sense
17:40:12 <oklofok> but i'm not sure if that was it
17:40:34 <oklofok> i always remember crystal clear, but often very very wrong.
17:43:04 <ihope> Noun: rote. 1. A line in the dirt.
17:43:24 <SimonRC> "<oklofok> theoretically possible" <--- no, your eardrum seperates your inner and outer ears
17:44:49 <ihope> Noun: jerry. 1. A motor vehicle incapable of going very fast.
17:45:06 <ihope> 2. A very slow person.
17:45:14 <ihope> (slang)
17:46:04 <SimonRC> ??
17:47:24 <ihope> Making up words.
17:48:14 <oklofok> SimonRC: yes, but you can pass air through it.
17:48:18 <oklofok> not fast
17:48:20 <oklofok> but you can
17:48:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:48:40 <oklofok> my friend demonstrated this to me once by blowing smoke through it
17:49:37 <GregorR> Have you ever tried to blow your nose when it was really stuffed up and felt the air coming out of your ear? Same idea.
17:49:38 <oklofok> also, you can just equalize your ear pressure... that is basically just passing air through it
17:49:50 <oklofok> and what GregorR said
17:50:28 <GregorR> I've gotten into the habit of covering my ears while I blow my nose :P
17:51:05 <ihope> GregorR: do you have three hands?
17:51:30 <ihope> If not, I sentence you to coming up with a word longer than "broughammed".
17:51:33 <GregorR> ihope: It's a bit of a stunt :)
17:52:00 <GregorR> Such as antidisestablishmentarianism or pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis?
17:52:06 <ihope> Yup!
17:52:11 <SimonRC> oklofok: I equalise my ear pressure by opening the tube that passes t connects my inner ear to my nose, I think.
17:52:49 <oklofok> actually, yeah, not the same thing
17:53:07 <oklofok> anyway, you *can* pass smoke through it, i've seen tons of ppl do that.
17:53:25 <SimonRC> I thought the eardrum was, like, impermiable
17:53:34 <oklofok> in fact, i once tried it myself, though that just gave me a massive hearache :P
17:53:45 <oklofok> (no, i don't smoke, i'm a good boy)
17:54:33 <oklofok> you may need to have it been popped... that's sometimes done when it's been infected or something
17:54:42 <oklofok> methinks
17:55:02 <SimonRC> akes sense
17:55:08 <oklofok> the friend who showed that to me actually has had his eardrums popped...
17:55:26 <SimonRC> how?
17:55:42 <oklofok> err... he was little and had 5 ear infections
17:55:47 <SimonRC> oh
17:55:48 <oklofok> iirc
17:56:00 <pikhq> "IIS gaining on Apache"
17:56:03 <oklofok> so it went poppidy poppidy at the hospital
17:56:10 * pikhq waits for the next IIS hole to fix that
17:56:49 * SimonRC imagines the situation with the other Apache""s.
17:57:12 <SimonRC> bloody lag
18:48:17 <ehird`> back
18:48:58 <SimonRC> sack
18:49:37 <ehird`> for the longest time i couldn't spell missisippi
18:49:40 <ehird`> i think i did that right
18:52:37 -!- ehird` has quit ("Leaving").
18:53:34 <oklofok> mississippi
18:59:57 <SimonRC> Mrs. Sippy
19:40:32 <ihope> "Necessary"
19:40:47 <ihope> Now I remember that the 'c's and 's's form "CSS" :-)
19:44:56 <oklofok> i don't understand how anyone would not remember stuff like that automatically
19:45:15 <oklofok> (not that i don't make mistakes, i just don't understand my own suckiness then.)
19:45:34 <oklofok> 'nessicary'
20:03:16 -!- jix_ has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:03:32 -!- jix__ has joined.
20:05:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:30:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:46:13 <Sukoshi`> RodgerTheGreat: When you get the time, can you make that guide about game programming for experienced programmers?
20:46:32 <RodgerTheGreat> sure
20:46:47 <Sukoshi`> I'm running short on time, so I won't really be able to reply, but thanks.
20:46:50 <RodgerTheGreat> Actually, I have a bit of free time- I'll do some work on it
20:46:55 <RodgerTheGreat> cya, then
20:47:01 <Sukoshi`> I'm tired of game guides that assume I've never programmed, so :)
20:47:04 <Sukoshi`> G'luck!
20:51:21 <SimonRC> "A game is just a database with a pretty front-end." :-)
20:56:19 <ihope> No, it's a database with a pretty front-end that lacks arbitrary features.
21:07:35 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:07:35 -!- oklofok has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:07:35 -!- Sukoshi` has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:07:35 -!- cmeme has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:07:36 -!- meatmanek has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:40 -!- helios24 has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:40 -!- oerjan has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:40 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:40 -!- tokigun has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- oklopol has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- sp3tt has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- mtve has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- jix__ has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- Haikz has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- wellons has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- Blejdfist has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- SimonRC has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- sebbu has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- sekhmet has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- cherez has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- ihope has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- lament has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- trepliev has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:08:41 -!- GregorR has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:10:45 -!- clog has joined.
21:10:45 -!- clog has joined.
21:11:13 -!- puzzlet has joined.
21:28:42 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:37:04 -!- oklofok has joined.
21:56:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:25:36 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:45:26 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:55:07 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
22:57:53 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ").
23:21:41 -!- ehird` has joined.
23:48:53 * SimonRC self-enbedinates.
23:52:49 <oerjan> ITYM autoembeds
23:55:09 <ehird`> echo '<embed src="index.html">' > index.html
23:59:28 <ihope> Is embed like image except... different?
23:59:35 <ihope> And maybe more general?
23:59:59 <ihope> Proprietary, says Wikipedia...
←2007-08-05 2007-08-06 2007-08-07→ ↑2007 ↑all