00:00:28 <ihope> As for precedence, I think + should bind more tightly than |.
00:00:47 <ihope> They're both associative, so we don't need to pay attention to that.
00:01:06 <ihope> (At least, I think they are.)
00:01:29 <ihope> I'm guessing right-associativity would be faster in implementation.
00:01:40 <oklopol> well... kinda hard to say which they are,
00:02:38 <ihope> Also, I think brackets should bind even more tightly than +.
00:03:03 <ihope> a + b + c = a + (b + c)
00:03:15 <oklopol> yeah... but what's that mean when you're parsing?
00:03:45 <ihope> I guess it means that for a + b, you assume that a doesn't contain any "top-level" +.
00:03:58 <ihope> "Top-level" meaning not inside a grouping symbol of any sort.
00:06:55 <oklopol> i'im pretty sure that works
00:07:54 <oklopol> i got a bit stuck with fooCC returning "CA"+foo() first, but then realized A is "s", not "i"
00:08:59 <ihope> New version: http://pastebin.ca/679378
00:10:08 <ihope> Complete with multi-character regexes and working with weak alternation.
00:11:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I just got here- could someone briefly explain what that is?
00:12:11 <oklopol> {/``k/; a <- sk(); sk(); a} <<< isn't the a just discarded?
00:12:18 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: a parsing-based language
00:14:33 <oklopol> {/``k/; a <- sk(); sk(); a} <<< does this return a from the whole sk expression?
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00:16:30 <oklopol> i never thought it'd be that easy
00:16:48 <oklopol> perhaps because i didn't realize there were functions even though you mentioned them
00:17:54 <oklopol> ihope: what's the name of the lang?
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00:18:33 <oklopol> also, i think you could squeeze that program smaller
00:18:48 <oklopol> not that i'm necessarily up for the task...
00:20:17 <oklopol> *can't* pass parsers around
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00:24:23 <oklopol> oerjan: look it's ski! http://pastebin.ca/679378
00:25:19 <oklopol> i'm gonna go buy something to drink now, before shops are closed ->
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00:29:58 <oerjan> oklopol: it tries the _last_ option first? otherwise the structure reminds me of haskell's Parsec with monads (especially the <-'s)
00:32:31 <ihope> oerjan: what's this about last option first?
00:33:07 <oerjan> ihope: oklopol's paste
00:33:13 <ihope> And yes, it's sort of a subset of Parsec :-)
00:33:19 <ihope> oerjan: I wrote that program.
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00:33:51 <ihope> What's this about trying the last option first?
00:34:03 <oerjan> that's what you would have to do in parsec
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00:35:12 <oerjan> they're actually disjoint, i was confused by no ^$ or similar around k and s
00:35:32 <oerjan> but of course that's not needed for unlambda syntax
00:35:38 <ihope> In parsec, does string "bar" <|> string "baz" work properly, or say that it was expecting r after ba?
00:36:00 <oerjan> no, you need to put try around string "bar"
00:36:31 <oerjan> an option without try is not backtracked unless it consumes no input
00:37:46 <ihope> Here, /bar/ applied to "baz" doesn't consume input.
00:37:53 <oerjan> this allows parsec to prune many branches for efficiency, i believe
00:38:17 <ihope> Otherwise, it works the same way as Parsec when it comes to alternation, I think.
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00:58:02 <oklopol> i should've known that genius an idea must have come from haskell :)
00:58:13 <oklopol> especially when it's ihopes
00:58:37 <oklopol> uhhh energy, flow through me
00:59:02 <oklopol> some ed energy drink to make my night complete
00:59:27 <oklopol> it seems my friend's bot is still running on my network, so i can't take it offline...
00:59:46 <oklopol> i could do my germans, but BLARGH
00:59:47 <ihope> Does somebody happen to feel like naming, implementing and posting-on-the-wiki my language?
00:59:54 <ihope> (I probably should have thought that word order through better.)
01:00:44 <oklopol> perhaps i just idle and look at this channel?
01:01:36 * ihope pushes the Small Red Button
01:01:38 <oklopol> ihope: what's the reason for not having first-class parsers?
01:01:51 <ihope> oklopol: lack of necessity, I guess.
01:02:04 <ihope> Lack of necessity, possible ease of implementation.
01:02:14 <ihope> Does that actually make it any easier to implement?
01:02:48 <ihope> Ah, maybe it's about blocks.
01:03:17 <ihope> Does the block return the last parser, or run it and return what it returns?
01:03:27 <ihope> And if the latter, how *do* you return the last parser?
01:03:43 <oklopol> you have separate high-level operators
01:04:42 <oklopol> <> takes a string and returns the parser
01:04:46 <ihope> Ah, I see what you mean.
01:05:01 <ihope> What do you mean, takes a string and returns the parser?
01:05:22 <oklopol> because everythign does...
01:05:46 <ihope> What parser does it return?
01:06:12 <ihope> So <"/aaa/"> is /aaa/?
01:06:26 <oklopol> a=</[sk]/>; would help in making the parser
01:06:30 <ihope> Or </aaa/> returns /aaa/?
01:06:33 <oklopol> of course, that's very simple as it is
01:07:14 <ihope> Actually, I do sort of have some... regexes that aren't taken advantage of.
01:08:04 <ihope> http://pastebin.ca/679421
01:10:18 <ihope> Also, I'm not at all using the anchor $, which could be... you know, user as that anchor.
01:10:47 <ihope> /$/ matches only when there's nothing left of the string.
01:11:18 <ihope> Well, it's not required for Turing-completeness, but it'd be nice, I guess.
01:11:21 <oklopol> oh $ is the past-the-end character?
01:12:13 <ihope> /$/["foo"] = immediate fail
01:12:34 <oklopol> /asdf$/["asdf"] = "asdf", /asdf$/["asdffd"] = fail
01:12:50 <oklopol> so it's the past-the-end character
01:13:02 <oklopol> like, something implicitly in the end of every string
01:17:18 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke <<< god the third one is bad
01:17:54 <ihope> This file didn't get written.
01:19:31 <ihope> This time it got written, but it's full of ÿ.
01:20:38 <ihope> It's the output of a certain command.
01:21:17 <ihope> That time it got written properly.
01:24:33 <oklopol> A boy owned a dog that was uncommonly shaggy. Many people remarked upon its considerable shagginess. When the boy learned that there are contests for shaggy dogs, he entered his dog. The dog won first prize for shagginess in both the local and the regional competitions. The boy entered the dog in ever-larger contests, until finally he entered it in the world championship for shaggy dogs. When the judges had inspected all of the competing dogs, they remarke
01:25:50 <oklopol> i don't think it could get any funnier
01:25:54 <ihope> Of course, you can't say "ever-larger contests". You have to say all of them.
01:26:19 <oerjan> of course you can, he just did.
01:26:28 <oklopol> i couldn't tell that joke, it's just too funny
01:26:50 <oerjan> you're just putting us on with that truncation.
01:27:11 <ihope> I'll find the full version.
01:27:35 <oklopol> it's not funny when you say it out loud
01:27:49 <ihope> 'When the judges had inspected all of the competing dogs, they remarked about the boy's dog: "He's not so shaggy."'
01:29:21 <oklopol> oh my god these ppl have been flooding on my server...
01:29:41 <oklopol> like 3 hours it's just been emptying the buffer
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01:30:21 <oerjan> i now see why you have to say all of them.
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01:32:21 <oklopol> pretty weird out of all there people the scandinavians are here.
01:33:06 <oklopol> something to do.. something to do..
01:37:01 <oerjan> it is somewhat difficult to be transitive and symmetric (which it is) but not reflexive - the non-reflexive elements would have to be related to nothing.
01:37:16 <oerjan> Wong Chan-Nel strikes again.
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01:40:56 <ihope> Doesn't seem like an order.
01:42:01 <ihope> Oh, yeah, I see now.
01:42:15 <ihope> Yeah, not related to anything.
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02:17:00 <ihope> I thought you'd, like, died or something! :-P
02:17:38 <oerjan> old prophets never die! or something.
02:25:18 <ihope> Also, this is cool: http://1089059683/
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02:40:57 <oklopol> CakeProphet: what ihope said
02:41:10 <CakeProphet> ...the CakeProphet project was officially orphaned... so I'm stuck on an outdated revision.
02:41:22 <ihope> CakeProphet: do you intend on dying again any time soon?
02:42:47 <bsmntbombdood> the wall on which \ the prophets wrote \ is cracking \ at the seams
02:52:33 <oklopol> exactly what i was thinking
02:58:53 <ihope> Yeah, you were sort of missed.
03:08:01 <ihope> No, CakeProphet was mist.
03:08:10 <ihope> Never mind that "mist" means "garbage".
03:08:27 <oerjan> i thought it meant fog
03:09:27 <ihope> German slang term, I think.
03:09:53 <oerjan> then it needs to be capitalized by those who do such things
03:10:47 <oklopol> tree rewriting is much harder to codify than i thought...
03:10:48 <ihope> Blah, who actually capitalizes common nouns in German? :-P
03:11:09 <ihope> I don't think English would be much different if we did that here.
03:11:24 <ihope> I meant to capitalize all the common Nouns in that Sentence, but it didn't have any.
03:11:43 <oklopol> none germans awake, can't show ya, but they do use capitals
03:11:46 <ihope> So I did all of them in that one instead.
03:12:40 <ihope> Annoying that you only encounter Nouns when you're not trying to :-P
03:12:48 <ihope> Should I stop capitalizing them now?
03:13:13 <ihope> Hmm, I'll do it... vacuously! >:-)
03:14:37 <oklopol> Why Not Capitalize everything But Annoyingly Forget To capitalize Some Words?
03:15:30 <oklopol> that's what i generally do
03:17:17 <oklopol> I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY HAVE TO KINDS OF LETTERS
03:17:51 <oklopol> EVEN LESS I UNDERSTAND WHY TO HAVE ONE OF THE CASES BE NON UNISIZEY
03:18:02 <oklopol> a, y, l, WHAT'S THAT ABOUT
03:19:41 <oerjan> oklopol: um, to have as much variation as possible to make your visual apparatus pick things up easier?
03:19:49 <chton_> HoW aBoUt AlTeRnAtiNg?
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03:20:48 <oklopol> oerjan: purity over readability
03:21:06 <oklopol> ONE PEOPLE, ONE COLOR, ONE CASE
03:21:30 <Chton> bsmntbombdood: nOt A bAd IdEA
03:21:36 <pikhq> I have a Caps Lock. . .
03:21:37 <oklopol> well, having consonants bigger than vocals is okay
03:22:10 <pikhq> Hmm. I've got an Idea. Let's use the traditional Notion of capitalising all Nouns in English Sentences.
03:22:34 <oklopol> pikhq: let's just speak german
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03:22:38 <Chton> how about inventing an inbetween case?
03:23:02 <oklopol> urrrrrrrrr finnish german english swedish
03:23:18 <oklopol> and i understand spanish a bit
03:23:26 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It was a feature of English until, IIRC, the late 1700's, and I *think* is still used in German.
03:23:33 <oklopol> english and finnish pretty fluent.
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03:23:50 <oklopol> swedish and german i can have a conversation in
03:24:15 <Chton> scandinavian languages ftw
03:24:34 <oklopol> i have both swedish and german matriculation in a few weeks (end-of-high-school-test)
03:25:12 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: why do you ask?
03:26:10 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Hontou zya nai.
03:26:35 <pikhq> That was Japanese.
03:26:49 <pikhq> (romanised; my IME doesn't like my terminal)
03:26:51 <Chton> yes, and it's not friendly to curse pikhq
03:27:02 <pikhq> No, I'm merely a 4th-year student.
03:27:08 <pikhq> Chton: "Not true" is cursing?!?
03:27:22 <bsmntbombdood> i bet everyone in here that's not from the US or canada or the UK speaks more than one language
03:27:36 <Chton> i'd say that's a pretty solid bet
03:27:59 <oklopol> well, the native one and english are quite hard to evade...
03:28:21 <Chton> doubly so if you live in a country with 3 languages
03:28:38 <pikhq> Of course, when English is native, it's hard to evade English. ;)
03:28:59 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i don't speak german or swedish that fluently, but i do have a prety native accent in both!
03:29:17 <oklopol> in germany, they said i sounded like a native for a while
03:29:30 * oklopol starts bragging when it's tired, it seems
03:29:30 <pikhq> I look native until I speak in Germany. :p
03:30:46 <pikhq> And I also get the curious property of looking vaguely English, as well. . .
03:30:57 <pikhq> Damned America, making mutts of us all. :p
03:31:27 <Chton> only very very vaguely
03:31:48 <oerjan> almost, but not entirely unlike SUPER SEXY
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03:32:26 <Chton> <-- almost, but not enirely GOING TO SLEEP
03:35:36 <oklopol> yeah, we've all seen your pics
03:36:22 <oerjan> that old guy with the beard, right?
04:08:40 <oklopol> a tree rewriting quickie i'm doing in python
04:10:24 <oklopol> i'd like to make it not a language, but a python library
04:10:35 <oklopol> but currently i'm parsing the rule from strings, at least
04:10:40 <oklopol> i'm not sure what that is.
04:11:13 <bsmntbombdood> i mean like a function that takes a set of rules and a tree, and returns the rewritten tree
04:12:03 <oklopol> rules is also just a python list
04:12:45 <oklopol> [[[('r', 'k'), 'a', 'b'], 'a']]
04:13:22 <oklopol> but... that wouldn't work yet
04:13:28 <oklopol> so it's like that until it will.
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04:19:41 <oklofok> hmm, gimme something in unlambda again...
04:19:50 <oklofok> i'll try out my sk-interpreter
04:19:55 <oklofok> [[["s",a],b],c]:[[a,c],[b,c]]
04:21:18 <oklofok> actually, i was mainly going for a nice support for making the tree rewriting *rules*, but the actual tree rewriting turned out to be quite tricky
04:21:24 <oklofok> or then it's just all the tired.
04:22:23 <oklofok> i'm fairly sure that should work
04:27:41 <oklofok> [[["k","i"],"i"],"l"] -> "l"
04:27:52 <oklofok> hmm... something harder, with "s"?
04:28:04 <oklofok> please gimme, i'm all coded out
04:28:49 <oklofok> something that won't crash
04:29:01 <oklofok> guess i could check if it crashes
04:30:29 <oklofok> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp
04:30:43 <oklofok> can you give me something a bit more complicated, but not toooo much?
04:31:02 * oerjan needs to calculate it first
04:31:12 <oklofok> i don't understand how i don't have any sk code nearby, sk is basically all i do :D
04:31:56 <oklofok> and random python quickies
04:32:34 <oerjan> ````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki
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04:34:06 <oerjan> i think it should return `k`ki
04:34:52 <oklopol> hmm... that's a bit hard to manually convert for python...
04:35:15 <oerjan> wait... i made it too complicated
04:35:31 <oklopol> it's fine if you do the conversion :)
04:35:49 <oklopol> i could make a convertor, but that'd take longer than necessary, methinks
04:36:15 <oklopol> if you wanna keep convertors similar
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04:38:47 <oklopol> [[[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[[s,[[s,[k,s]]],k],[k,i]]],k],i]
04:38:55 <oklopol> and then strings out of those
04:39:37 <oklopol> >>> ul ````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki
04:39:48 <oerjan> i forgot all the shortcuts
04:39:59 <pikhq> I hate you and your SKI calculus.
04:40:27 <oklopol> ['k', [[[['s', [['s', ['k', 's']]], 'k'], ['k', 'i']], 'k'], 'i']]
04:40:31 <oerjan> now you can try `` ```s``s`kski``s``s`kski ki
04:41:11 <oerjan> that should be the same, i forgot some shortcuts the first time
04:42:24 <oklopol> ['k', ['k', 'i']] <<< kay, now worked
04:42:30 <oklopol> was most likely my error then...
04:42:35 <oklopol> #````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki
04:42:35 <oklopol> #[[[["s",[["s",["k","s"]],"k"]],[["s",[["s",["k","s"]]],"k"],["k","i"]]],"k"],"i"]
04:43:04 <oklopol> try converting that if you please
04:43:12 <oklopol> i don't feel like doing it again...
04:43:35 <oerjan> it contains the same subparts
04:44:11 * oerjan doesn't really feel like doing it either
04:45:46 <oerjan> try `` ```s``s`kski``s``s`kski ki instead, it's just the shortest version with a part doubled
04:45:57 <oklopol> [[[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[k,i]]],k],i]
04:47:07 <oklopol> ['k', ['k', 'i']] <<< yeas fucking omg ?!?
04:47:42 <oklopol> i don't need to try anything anymore, if one random program works, everything works :)
04:48:04 <oklopol> your first suggestion, indeed
04:48:25 <oklopol> `k`ki and then synonym replacementz?
04:49:47 <oklopol> hmm... if the "from" expression is more complex, it prolly fails... i'll try to implement "append"
04:50:13 <oerjan> ^f^x`$f`$f$x and then abstraction implementation
04:51:18 <ololobot> ``s``s`ks``s`kki``s``s`ks``s`kki`ki
04:51:48 <oerjan> that is with no shortcuts at all
04:52:15 <oklopol> it does absolutely no optimization
04:52:26 <oklopol> just the transformation described on the unlambda page
04:55:41 <oklopol> ['append', [[[[[[['nil']]]]]]], [[[['nil']]]]]
04:55:41 <oklopol> [[[[[[[[[[['nil']]]]]]]]]]]
04:55:52 <oklopol> i can't believe it's working that well
04:56:01 <oklopol> ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]]
04:56:14 <oklopol> that was like a 1 hour project
04:56:37 <oklopol> and that's better than scheme
04:56:44 <oklopol> i mean, better than my scheme.
04:57:14 <oklopol> >>> sch "this is so sucky, there aren't even strings yet."
04:59:07 <oklopol> hmm... can't think of anything else i can do with that in the 20 minutes i have left
04:59:16 <oklopol> guess i should start making that better.
05:01:02 <oklopol> have to make a syntax for specifying something macroish
05:01:20 <oklopol> like "only match top level"
05:08:57 <oklopol> basically, this is thue with trees
05:09:02 <oklopol> ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]]
05:09:02 <oklopol> ["append",[[[[[[["nil"]]]]]]],[[[["nil"]]]]]
05:13:22 <oklopol> ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]]
05:13:22 <oklopol> [append,[[[[[[[]]]]]]],[[[[]]]]]
05:13:43 <oklopol> i wasn't gonna put that here
05:14:09 <oklopol> oerjan: now i know how you feel
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05:25:33 <pikhq> I'd like to inform Sukoshi that it's been one *year* since the Esolang contest, and its still not been judged.
05:25:39 <pikhq> (hell, am I the only entrant?)
05:29:01 <oerjan> i am sure the contest is being conducted according to all relevant esolang traditions.
05:29:28 <oerjan> which, unfortunately, don't include actually completing the judging.
05:29:28 <pikhq> That's a bad sign. ;)
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07:01:28 <pikhq> It is now PEBBLEversary.
07:03:18 <pikhq> Also, #esoteric is getting some holidays. w00t.
07:05:11 <pikhq> I would like to thank the US government for giving me the day off to celebrate this momentous occasion.
07:06:07 <pikhq> I never said they did *nothing*, just that they do the wrong things. :p
07:36:19 <pikhq> I shall begin the festivities with the traditional PEBBLE sport: competitive sleeping.
07:41:51 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: You don't. It's not much of a competiton. :)
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10:23:44 <ehird`> #thelang didn't last long
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15:16:26 * ihope ponders instructions
15:17:11 <ihope> Hmm, a bit shift left/if instruction would be nice.
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17:02:47 <pikhq> It's PEBBLEversary.
17:05:17 * oerjan throws PEBBLES at everyone to celebrate
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17:08:16 <ehird`> write an article on how pebble works to celebrate
17:08:26 <ehird`> it'll help aspiring compile-to-bf language writers like me :p
17:13:42 <pikhq> It's in the PEBBLE tarball.
17:20:49 <ehird`> Well write a longer one and put it on the web
17:21:05 <pikhq> I call it "pebble.tcl"
17:21:19 <ehird`> I want a theoretical paper
17:27:35 <pikhq> Sorry, I'm lousy at theory.
17:27:56 <pikhq> I follow a "git 'er done" philosophy to coding ATM. :p
17:45:35 <ehird`> i just want info about pebble v_v
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18:00:09 <pikhq> I'm open for questions on this magnificent holiday.
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18:40:03 <ihope> Somebody translate http://pastebin.ca/679421 to C or something. :-P
18:41:28 <ihope> I haven't given it a name.
18:41:38 <ihope> Perhaps it could be called Redivider.
18:41:59 <ihope> Even though it has nothing to do with palindromes or redivision.
18:42:31 <bsmntbombdood> it can't be converted to C unless we know the semantics
18:43:12 <ihope> SK calculus. I think I'll come up with an interpreter in Haskell.
18:43:29 <ihope> (Because it's impossible to write an interpreter in any other language. :-P)
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18:59:50 <ihope> My. I'm having a weird urge to play Lincity.
19:00:11 <pikhq> I'm getting an urge to get good at Bos Wars.
19:00:30 <ihope> Ironic(al)ly enough, I only have it on my Windows machine.
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22:37:05 * ehird` is talking from xubuntu -- running on an intel iMac :)
22:37:10 <ehird`> wireless internet and all!
22:56:23 <SimonRC> Grow a Google reflex already.
22:56:54 <ehird`> SimonRC, alternatively, try and be less condescending and tell people instead of directing all queries to a website
22:57:09 <ehird`> i hear it's called "kindness"
22:57:49 <SimonRC> Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
22:57:59 <SimonRC> based on Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
22:58:26 <SimonRC> looks cool, but light on th CPU
22:58:49 <ehird`> cpus are for using, people =p
22:59:00 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds almost as much fun as my duck-duck-goose task scheduler.
22:59:16 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, exciting
22:59:20 <SimonRC> you actually implemented that?
22:59:20 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i'll tell EA games
22:59:35 <RodgerTheGreat> not nearly as exciting as the musical chairs version, although it has some minor issues
23:00:17 <RodgerTheGreat> implementing the part where all the processes get up and run around is a trick
23:00:36 <ehird`> integrate it with mpd or amarok or something
23:01:38 <SimonRC> I know, you could have all the processors in the machien randomly keep re-picking (but not running) processes, until an interupt stops them all and any processes having a CPU at the time run.
23:01:51 <SimonRC> which sucks if there is only 1 CPU
23:02:06 <ehird`> who wants to help out the planned implang-continuation :)
23:02:51 <ehird`> a very very simple conlang planned over irc
23:03:04 <ehird`> basically you join, look at the language it is now, and discuss it.
23:03:21 <ehird`> i started that retry of the idea a day or so ago with ihope
23:03:30 <RodgerTheGreat> there's also the possibility of a russian-roulette task manager (made all the more amusing if you have a CPU capable of barrel multitasking)
23:04:21 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: is this in any way associated with the Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory?
23:04:33 <ehird`> conlang = natural language
23:10:04 <SimonRC> surely conlang = constructed language?
23:10:52 <ehird`> anyway, you should join in :p
23:13:12 <ehird`> SimonRC: you could help kickstart it
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23:49:53 <ehird`> anyone else want to help out? ;)
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