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01:05:02 <pikhq> I fully intend, next year, to laugh at the undergrad CS students who don't know shit about coding.
01:05:13 <pikhq> Moreover, I plan to do it in Brainfuck.
01:07:09 <pikhq> Perhaps assisted with my friendly compiler. :)
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01:46:36 <lament> pikhq: it's impolite to laugh at people just because they don't know something they're not even supposed to know.
01:47:27 <pikhq> lament: I refuse to be polite, then.
01:48:04 <lament> ok, i'll laugh at you because you don't know Russian, then.
01:48:16 <lament> really, how can anybody be that stupid? :)
01:48:56 <pikhq> It'd only be silly if I went in as a Russian major.
01:49:04 <pikhq> And then claimed to be a god at Russian.
01:49:18 <pikhq> (like the people I intend to laugh at claim to be a god at coding)
01:49:33 <lament> the CS program assumes no knowledge of programming
01:50:04 <pikhq> And I assume that the mathematics program assumes no knowledge of math?
01:50:04 <lament> much unlike the math program
01:51:02 <pikhq> Inevitably, the ones who will stick around in such a program *already know a bit about programming*.
01:51:08 <lament> pikhq: that's not true.
01:51:26 <lament> lots of people learn programming while in the CS program.
01:52:36 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: be aware of the fact that virtually all introductory (read: required) CS courses specify a language for the completion of all assignments.
01:53:03 <bsmntbombdood> in a math program, you're expected to know the language of math, ie algebra
01:53:06 <lament> pikhq: in my university, there was an exam you could take to skip the first few courses.
01:53:18 <lament> bsmntbombdood: ...why?
01:53:30 <lament> pikhq: so people who already knew programming could take the exam, and others would take those courses.
01:53:33 <pikhq> Particularly when it is plausible for someone to know programming by age 8. . .
01:53:45 <RodgerTheGreat> if you get into an AI course or something and still want to use PEBBLE, be my guest. However, CS 1001 or whatever-the-hell-it's-called introductory programming is going to use either C++ or Java, period.
01:54:01 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: C++ at the college I want to go to.
01:54:06 <pikhq> Fortuitously, I *know* C++.
01:54:21 <pikhq> And I'd love to do one assignment in PEBBLE, for no good reason. :p
01:54:31 <lament> bsmntbombdood: note that the analogy is doubly broken because the CS program *also* expects you to know math, just like the math program.
01:54:47 <lament> bsmntbombdood: in fact, both programs expect you to know what you're taught in HS.
01:54:56 <ihope> Not that I know when I learned Pascal. That was a while ago.
01:55:01 <lament> bsmntbombdood: which involves a lot of math and no (mandatory) CS.
01:55:10 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: 1) try being a fucking grader, 2) those intro courses are *largely* about teaching sane coding style, formatting and commenting practice
01:55:12 <bsmntbombdood> lament: if you can't learn anything on your own, you're stupid
01:55:32 <lament> bsmntbombdood: there's a difference between "can" and "should"
01:55:34 <pikhq> Imagine you going in as an English major, and enter not knowing English. . .
01:55:57 <lament> pikhq: with languages *other* than English, that's exactly how it works.
01:56:06 <lament> You could enter not knowing any Spanish, and then become a Spanish major.
01:56:14 <pikhq> lament: I assume this is a school somewhere where English is spoken natively.
01:56:20 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: why is it valuable to have CS majors without practical coding experience? Theory is far less useful if nobody knows how to apply it in a useful fashion.
01:57:04 <lament> anyway, faculties can't assume that you know anything beyond high school stuff. Otherwise, nobody would go to said faculties.
01:57:26 <pikhq> lament: Programming courses for a computer science program should honestly be considered remedial courses. . .
01:57:28 <lament> so all faculties assume english, and all faculties assume math, and none of them assume programming.
01:57:41 <ihope> The subject "English" is a horrible spectrum ranging from literature to spelling.
01:57:51 <lament> pikhq: sure, just like basic spanish courses are "remedial" for a spanish major
01:57:57 <ihope> The two are pretty much unrelated.
01:57:58 <pikhq> And try to get high schools to actually match that.
01:58:28 <pikhq> ihope: For a degree in English, literature is usually what is being referred to. ;)
01:58:30 <lament> pikhq: well, *given* the high schools, universities are pretty much doing the best they can.
01:59:20 <pikhq> Given the high schools, I'm surprised people can even wipe their ass after graduating from high school.
01:59:46 <ihope> Is that supposed to be taught in schools at all?
01:59:47 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a depressing number of people who choose a college major without doing anything in advance of showing up for the first class to prepare themselves
02:00:13 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: I dunno, I think they teach it in some of the elementary school special ed classes
02:02:25 <RodgerTheGreat> if parents are incapable of teaching their children to dress themselves, eat, and defecate properly, I don't think they deserve the title "parent"
02:02:29 <lament> so yeah, to summarize, the math program assumes as much math knowledge as the CS program assumes CS knowledge -- everything you learned in high school.
02:02:58 <lament> You'd think the people going to math are pretty smart. Yet the program doesn't even assume they know calculus. Because not everybody learns calculus in high schools.
02:03:25 <RodgerTheGreat> which says more about high-schools than universities, really
02:03:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: you don't quite understand.
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02:03:50 <lament> bsmntbombdood: there's this thing called *the real world*, which is where both universities and high schools have to operate.
02:03:52 <RodgerTheGreat> but you need to remember- there are two reasons you go to college: to learn, or to prove what you know
02:04:21 <lament> bsmntbombdood: In this "real world", the universities can't do anything about the high schools and have to do their best given the situation.
02:04:23 <RodgerTheGreat> In my case, some of both. In some cases, more of the former
02:04:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: which is what they do.
02:05:07 <lament> You can't raise the bar above HS requirements because then almost nobody would attend.
02:05:20 <bsmntbombdood> universities are for the advancement of academia, not for making money
02:05:47 <lament> in this case, universities are for teaching, and teaching is what they do.
02:05:55 <pikhq> The high schools need to be revamped signifigantly. .
02:05:56 <bsmntbombdood> forcing people to know stuff they didn't get taught in high school would keep the idiots out
02:06:19 <ihope> Universities aren't out to make money?
02:06:21 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so where should they learn this stuff? By themselves?
02:06:35 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so, if you can learn it all by yourself
02:06:39 <lament> why go to university at all?
02:06:45 <pikhq> ihope: In *name*, they're largely public institutions.
02:07:07 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a fine balance to strike between punishing people for being lazy cockoffs in high-school and unfairly hurting the people that honestly did try yet went to crappy schools
02:08:23 <lament> bsmntbombdood: that's not the stated goal of universities (in the context of getting an undergrad degree). Perhaps a society like MENSA would serve you better.
02:09:15 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: wait... were you serious about the mensa thing?
02:10:28 <ihope> Hmm, Mensa. I think my mom says it's mostly about "Look at me, I'm smart enough to be in Mensa!"
02:10:32 <pikhq> MENSA is remarkable, in that it seems to be more a society of people smart enough to join, but not smart enough to willingly *not* join.
02:10:45 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: he wants to interact with smart people, no?
02:11:39 <RodgerTheGreat> well, he said smart people, but smart people isn't necessarily the same thing as pretentious assholes with high-IQs that are willing to pay membership dues to say so.
02:12:13 <lament> well, that's his problem :)
02:12:51 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Like I said: smart enough to join, not smart enough to *not* join. ;)
02:13:01 <RodgerTheGreat> in all honesty, I think quite a few of us here could get into MENSA if we wanted and yet... none of us are currently... how unusual...
02:13:26 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: yeah, I was just making the point in a different way
02:13:36 <pikhq> "Here's an IQ test I took. . . 8 years ago." ;)
02:13:48 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: 1 in 50 makes it in, iirc.
02:13:56 <gurami> Tell me how to make a really great cappuccino please?
02:14:08 <lament> gurami: the key ingredient is great espresso
02:14:15 <pikhq> Assuming an IQ test with some other standard deviation, it is officially 2 standard deriviations.
02:14:17 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: ah... dude, that would mean mensa "geniuses" are within one standard deviantion. WTF?
02:14:19 <lament> gurami: do you have a big, expensive espresso machine?
02:14:27 <bsmntbombdood> gurami: 1 part really great esspresso, 1 part milk, 1 part microfoam?
02:14:52 <lament> gurami: the other key thing is knowing how to foam milk
02:15:09 <gurami> That is difficult - I always end up with too little foam
02:15:21 <lament> gurami: http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/frothingguide
02:15:39 <gurami> reading something called the frothingguide will make this day complete
02:15:47 <lament> and in general, look at http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides
02:16:01 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Presumably because 2 SDs is 0.5% of the population?
02:16:56 <pikhq> Still not all *that* impressive.
02:17:25 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing against you, gurami, but is there any particular reason you decided this would be a good channel to ask about cappuccino?
02:17:41 <ihope> Is nobody here capable of spelling "deviation"? :-P
02:17:44 * pikhq is at about the point where IQ tests are incapable of accurately discerning meaningful values.
02:18:09 <gurami> Meh, I figure a room full of esoteric programmers would be pretty knowledgeable about caffeine delivery methods :)
02:18:11 <pikhq> ihope: How the hell did I enter an "r" in my second usage of "deviation"?
02:18:27 <pikhq> gurami: Coffee, and lots of it. ;p
02:18:37 <pikhq> Mountain Dew is also damned good.
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02:20:13 <ihope_> "Your IQ is at least this high", they said...
02:20:17 <gurami> :) I mean, i can understand an addiction to mountain dew. i just cant sympathize
02:21:11 <pikhq> Sometimes, I need something sugary.
02:21:32 <gurami> I totally call all cola "Coke". Pop must be preceded by Snap and Crackle.
02:21:51 <pikhq> I call all operating systems "Windows". :p
02:23:07 <gurami> Ok i call all soft drinks coke.
02:23:12 <gurami> i think its a southern thing.
02:23:53 <gurami> [http://popvssoda.com]
02:24:31 <ihope_> Except when I think the word "pop" sound silly, in which case... um...
02:24:53 <ihope_> (I seem to be becoming increasingly unable to put the "s" on the end of stuff.)
02:25:07 <pikhq> I do both "soda" and "pop". . .
02:25:43 <ihope_> (Why the singular/plural distinction, anyway? I don't like it.)
02:25:57 <ihope_> (Person can understand thing just fine without it, can't it?)
02:26:29 <ihope_> I generally use "soda" only for "fruit"-flavored drinks.
02:26:43 <gurami> here's a question, is someone who believes in the Pope's mission a "Popist"?
02:27:16 <ihope_> Maybe I believe in both Pope and pop.
02:28:24 <gurami> sorry i took the level of this conversation down a bunch
02:28:33 <gurami> im kinda bored and delirious
02:28:41 <RodgerTheGreat> pope pop! the new flavor sensation sweeping vatican city! "Holy christ on a stick it's good", says an anonymous dude.
02:29:49 <gurami> The new brown pope pop: Poopy Pope Pop!
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02:32:31 <pikhq> Easter-Flavored Pope Pop!
02:32:58 <pikhq> "Where is it? It can't have left the grave!"
02:33:16 <RodgerTheGreat> "It makes you feel like crawling out of hell and doing something with palm fronds!"
02:34:33 <pikhq> That'd be Good Friday Pope Pop, and that has cyanide. :p
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05:10:02 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, lies!
05:10:57 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes I wish we were a bit more like #Esoteric in the sense that we didn't have a big centralized set of servers providing all our stuff- #Esoteric's resources are distributed around to different people
05:11:15 <RodgerTheGreat> we have a lot of friction going on because we have a community half and a company half.
05:11:22 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, where ios this?
05:13:05 <RodgerTheGreat> a little pearl of wisdom here: shit gets complicated when you let it.
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07:42:54 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)c1(_a)s.?"12345 "(_o)o.?\]}
07:43:08 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)c<1>(_a)s.?"12345 "(_o)o.?\]}
07:43:26 <EgoBot> 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 123
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07:45:31 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)cc*<1>(_a)s.?="12345 "(_o)o.?\]}
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07:46:57 <immibis> !glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]}
07:47:13 <immibis> !daemon glasscat glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]}
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09:28:38 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:28:38 <EgoBotsClone> java.io.IOException: CreateProcess: "runglass "{M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}"" error=2
09:30:02 <immibis> the system cannot find the file specified.......
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09:34:18 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:34:19 <EgoBotsClone> java.io.IOException: CreateProcess: "pause > NUL" "C:\djgpp\glass-0.7\glass "{M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}"" error=2
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09:35:12 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:35:31 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:35:31 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:35:58 <immibis> what does "ntvdm.exe: error setting up the environment for the new application" mean exactly?
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09:40:05 <oklopol> "(RodgerTheGreat) in all honesty, I think quite a few of us here could get into MENSA if we wanted and yet... none of us are currently... how unusual..." how do you know? i almost went to the tests :P
09:46:07 <oklopol> i can't stand IQ tests, it's just about fast pattern matching
09:46:25 <oklopol> well, actually i can't stand them because of that for the simple reason that's what i'm particularly bad at ;)
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09:51:43 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:52:19 <immibis> what? error while setting up environment for the application!!!
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14:20:57 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: well, I'm kinda on the other end of the spectrum there
14:22:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm really, really good at the types of things on IQ tests (spatial thinking, pattern recognition, etc), and standardized tests in general, to the point that I have difficulty believing my results are anything but statistical anomalies
14:26:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the main problem is that IQ tests tend to place a tremendous amount of weight on some fairly specialized types of skills
14:27:29 <oklopol> i guess i get good scores too, but i feel stupid doing them, since i just get the trivial ones in the short time you have...
14:28:03 <oklopol> i guess everyone just gets the trivial stuff....
14:28:53 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm familiar with testing and scoring procedure (another reason my scores should be taken with a grain of salt) and most modern tests weight the question
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15:05:14 <bsmntbombdood> output brainfuck that, when executed, outputs the input?
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18:39:03 <oerjan> hat+goggles? bsmntbom1dood is designing mad scientist wear?
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18:39:34 <oklopol> hmm, bf_txtgen may need some optimizing to actually compress...
18:40:55 <bsmntbombdood> the hat is a tetrahedron made out of duck tape and cardboard
18:41:00 <oerjan> given that each character in a brainfuck program takes only 8 possible values, some sequences of which are redundant or impossible...
18:41:15 <oerjan> tetrahedron sounds pretty mad to me :D
18:42:05 <oerjan> but proper madness of course requires something better than cardboard. tinfoil perhaps?
18:42:07 <bsmntbombdood> the goggles are sort of square-piramids with the tips and bases cut off
18:42:35 <oklopol> oerjan: true, i'm not saying it doesn't compress anything
18:43:30 <oerjan> oklopol: basically you are immediately at at least a 3/8 handicap
18:44:00 <oerjan> however given that i've heard english text only has 1 bit per character information, there is still some wiggling room
18:44:08 <bsmntbombdood> well, you would only use 3 bits/instruction of course
18:45:32 <oklopol> 1 bit per character? darn, my conciseness-based conlang only does 75% compression compared to english :|
18:45:57 <oerjan> that figure may have been anecdotal though
18:46:16 <oklopol> indeed, sounds a bit of a coinsidence
18:46:52 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: In my crypto classes, I heard figures of at least 1.6
18:48:20 <oklopol> eh... that was kinda obvious, sorry :D
18:48:27 <RodgerTheGreat> have a look at the middle image here- http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/polaroids/polaroids.2.jpg
18:49:08 <RodgerTheGreat> what you see there is the original prototype interface for the Apple Lisa, the final version of which became the macintosh GUI.
18:50:44 <RodgerTheGreat> imagine what computers would be like today if softkey-driven keyboard based UIs had become dominant back in the day.
18:53:42 <RodgerTheGreat> that's not really the same thing, unless your "window manager" is mc
18:56:11 <Sgeo> Linux Mint 3.1 is out!
18:59:40 <oklopol> in case anyone happens to know how to get my own ip on ubuntu in python, i'd appreciate it
18:59:56 <oklopol> google only gives me getaddrinfo crap that only works on win
19:00:12 <Sgeo> Ask in #python ?
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19:43:20 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/hat_goggles.jpg
19:44:32 <oklopol> i gotta get me one of those
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19:47:13 * Sgeo can't wait to play with the new version of LM
19:47:36 * Sgeo is downloading it now
19:47:39 <oerjan> wait a minute, an actual, clear, part-of-face showing picture of bsmntbombdood? impossible :D
19:49:27 <SimonRC> have you seen the latest, greatest conspiracy theory?
19:49:57 <SimonRC> http://digg.com/videos/music/How_our_financial_system_really_works
19:50:47 <SimonRC> alas, the only way yet found to get a load of monkies to work hard is debt like that.
19:51:55 * SimonRC presses the ENHANCE button
19:54:10 <ehird`> that's against the laws of nature
19:54:14 <ehird`> call the nature police
19:56:21 * Sgeo keeps downloading LM
20:00:16 * oklopol is dissappointed no one misinterpreted him to refer to bsmntbombdood with his remark
20:00:57 <oklopol> "(oklopol) i gotta get me one of those"
20:04:38 <oklopol> really wore that to school?
20:05:00 <oklopol> i used to be a cook too... nowadays i don't bother going to school anymore :<
20:05:20 * oerjan thinks the top of bsmntbombdood's head must be _really_ ugly.
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20:06:16 * SimonRC points out a picture he drew (explanation to follow at some point in the future): http://users.durge.org/~sc/Kigdatsi/pics/Kig_20070922.png
20:06:17 <bsmntbombdood> yeah http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_3.jpg
20:06:20 <oerjan> or maybe it's just that americans have really weird fashion sense
20:07:20 <oerjan> aha, i didn't know you were in the picture
20:08:07 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:08:20 <oerjan> hm, maybe it's that "666" on his forehead he doesn't want to show, it's covered in both...
20:09:27 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think we've ever seen pics of you oerjan ...
20:12:20 <oerjan> i used to have a pass photo on my homepage but a friend said i looked like a Hitlerjugend so i took it away... i don't actually have any kind of digital camera
20:14:07 <oerjan> still in the directory though - http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~ but it's at least 10 years old
20:14:58 <ehird`> i can see the resemblence! .. no i can't
20:15:10 <oklopol> oerjan: that can't be you!
20:15:19 <ehird`> also, oerjan, i'm going to ignore that photo because my mental-image-o-tron does not percieve you as looking like that
20:15:24 <oerjan> it was a friend with a weird sense of humor :)
20:15:45 <oklopol> because of the reason ehird` said
20:15:51 <Sgeo> oerjan of FRC!
20:16:14 <oklopol> norwegians never pose for a pic without a massive cod in their hand!
20:16:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: what, you recognize the picture? O_O
20:16:38 <Sgeo> No, it's just that you are of the Fantasy Rules Comittee
20:17:34 * Sgeo used to love reading the archives
20:17:50 * Sgeo still does actually
20:18:02 <oerjan> i just thought if you were on FRC, you might actually have seen that picture when it was on my homepage :D
20:19:00 <oerjan> oklopol: i _hate_ fishing despite that both my grandfathers were fishermen and my father loves it
20:19:07 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you can't do shit in germany because of the whole nazi thing
20:19:24 <oerjan> more or less the same with skis, btw
20:19:49 <ehird`> oppression i think you mean
20:20:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i'll just ignore that and continue to think of you as a long-haired fishing-loving satan-worshipper!
20:21:36 * oklopol listens to a lot of death metal
20:21:59 <oklopol> i'm very bad with genres :)
20:22:08 <oerjan> just to completely ruin everything, i must mention that i love ABBA :D
20:22:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure what death metal is.
20:24:55 <oklopol> no one takes the lyrics seriously :P
20:25:32 <bsmntbombdood> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Gorgorothvid.jpg
20:26:32 <ehird`> Haikus are fun/but this is not/a haiku
20:29:36 <oklopol> i agree that is one ridiculous outfit, but i don't understand people who wear anything but black t-shirts anyway
20:29:45 <ehird`> Haikus are fun/but this is not/a haiku/haikus have no more than 3 lines
20:31:12 <oklopol> gorgasm is one of my favorite
20:31:33 <oklopol> cannibal corpse is a classic of course, but that's usually pretty dull melodically
20:37:26 <oklopol> was your reason for death metal sucking the fact the people who make it are idiots? :P
20:37:39 <oklopol> or do you have something against the actual music?
20:38:17 <oklopol> you must not have heard gorgasm, it's absolute beauty
20:38:38 <oklopol> hmm... can you give me an example band :P
20:38:44 <oklopol> i have no idea what that is
20:41:15 <oklopol> i haven't heard much black sabbath
20:44:15 <oklopol> hehe, this is some groovy rock 'n' roll ;)
20:45:19 <oklopol> do not turn my sarcasm around!
20:46:36 <oklopol> i didn't think anyone would
20:47:46 * oerjan beats oklopol with a stick
20:49:00 <oklopol> abba is better than sabbath
20:49:10 <oklopol> well, according to this one random song i heard.
20:49:38 * Sgeo wants to play some Fantasy Chess
20:50:50 <oklopol> abba, like most pop, occasionally has nice melodies, but uses too little of them per song
20:55:26 <oklopol> i may have, these ancient bands i've doomed to be bad for no apparent reason sometimes turn out to be pretty decent.
20:58:22 <oerjan> everything went downhill after Akhenaton's Sun Hymn, really
20:59:20 <oklopol> music gets better all the time
21:00:21 <oklopol> even pop nowadays sometimes sounds like music from time to time
21:06:38 <oerjan> it's probably just a side effect of having a tetrahedron on your head. watch out for weird time distortions.
21:16:49 <oklopol> when i woke up 3 hours ago, i actually felt like i could do something for a change
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22:28:20 <lament> taste in music is subjective, surprise!
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