00:38:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
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00:42:05 -!- rice has changed nick to ehird.
00:43:11 <ehird> I GOT THIS NICK BACK
00:43:36 <ehird> OK the only nick I need now is Z
00:43:44 <ehird> which I can have if the guy using it changes nicks (he doesn't own it)
00:43:55 <pikhq> Register it and ghost him.
00:44:13 <ehird> I can't.. he's online with it, duh
00:44:17 <ehird> It needs to be dropped.
00:44:25 <ehird> But: not identified.
00:44:29 <ehird> So it can be dropped.
00:45:20 <ehird> they appear to be either
00:45:47 <ehird> they're in #wikipedia-nl
01:05:03 <oklopol> i can try getting it while you sleep, sounds like a fun objective
01:16:56 <ehird> oklopol: ok, just go into #freenode, then /whois Z every now and then
01:17:03 <ehird> and ask for it to be transferred
01:17:06 <Asztal> there's no-one called X, but you'd probably be auto-klined for that ;)
01:17:09 <ehird> tell me the password
01:17:23 <ehird> oklopol: you will just steal it yourself won't you :P
01:22:12 <ehird> oklopol: i can tell!
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01:32:17 <adu> i'm esoteric
01:32:30 <ehird> are you an esoteric programmer.
01:32:44 <ehird> well from /whois you are a programmer
01:32:50 <adu> the last thing I wrote was in perl, so I guess not
01:32:52 <ehird> but... befunge? brainfuck? unlambda? underload? intercal?
01:33:08 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list pick one.
01:33:13 <adu> I wrote a Funge-98 interpreter in perl once...
01:33:45 <adu> I never got the AB-YZ importing quite right tho
01:33:46 <pikhq> Befunge-98 even counts as good taste. ;)
01:34:36 <adu> I really liked funge-space
01:35:00 <adu> it was almost like it was a multidimensional array indexed by a polynomial
01:35:15 <adu> I like polynomials
01:35:39 <adu> no worries about (1, 0) != (1, 0, 0)
01:38:31 <adu> is there such a thing as programmer burnout?
01:39:12 <faxathisia> Then you find something new and start again
01:39:22 <adu> where one feel the futility of typing any keys that are not going to bring humanity any closer to a future without typing?
01:41:37 <adu> for awhile I thought all data could be described by AttributedDefaultList's
01:41:57 <adu> faxathisia: whats new for you?
01:42:15 <adu> faxathisia: I mean it sounds like you burned-out, what did you find?
01:44:12 <faxathisia> adu, a few times.. lisp earlier I guess, type theory now
01:45:03 <adu> ya! Type Theory rocks!
01:45:55 <oklopol> ehird: i won't steal it, just as awesome if i know the owner as it is owning it
01:46:20 <oklopol> (unless there's money involved, in which case i'd have to know you more closely ;))
01:46:41 <ehird> one-letter nicks: the best way to gain popularity
01:47:02 <oklopol> i just find stuff like that inherently awesome.
01:47:25 <adu> oklopol: what?
01:47:34 -!- Asztal has changed nick to ^.
01:47:39 <oklopol> adu: short nicks in a big network
01:47:49 -!- ^ has changed nick to Asztal.
01:48:05 <oklopol> if i got "o", i'd prolly use that one
01:49:03 <oklopol> need to continue the book, kinda lame not finishing books in one go
01:50:04 <faxathisia> It's kind of eso .. anyway but the damn self intepreter doesn't work
01:50:36 <adu> I want to make a lang based on AttributedDefaultLists's
01:55:33 <adu> just FYI, what I imagine a AttributedDefaultList to be is similar to a hybrid between a python dict and list, and an XML element with those attributes and stuff, only the keys of the attributes are evaluated at runtime, and the values can only be obtained by "getting" the attribute. All elements of a AttributedDefaultList that are not key'ed members are excecuted in order.
01:56:46 <adu> so its possible to do something like this:
01:56:47 <adu> (if $a then $b else $c) := {True: $b; _: $c}[$a]
01:57:04 <adu> I don't think you'd even need functions at all...
01:57:36 <adu> just AttributedDefaultList's :)
01:59:32 <adu> I wonder if i should try and implement it
02:01:09 <ehird> z is droppable though.
02:01:42 -!- adu has changed nick to i.
02:01:49 -!- i has changed nick to adu.
02:05:09 <adu> faxathisia: do you understand the "{True: $b; _: $c}[$a]" part?
02:06:07 <adu> that would be the esolang, and "(if $a then $b else $c)" is just its everyday equivalent
02:11:00 <adu> hahahaha, I picked my favorite esolang!
02:11:44 <adu> is Xigxzg related to Zigzag?
02:11:50 <adu> http://esolangs.org/wiki/X-D
02:12:24 <ehird> (if $a then $b else $c) is {False: $c; _: $b}[$a]
02:12:33 <ehird> since, all non-False things are true in just about everything
02:13:05 <adu> ehird: ok, whatever, if I make the language you can use {False: $c; _: $b}[$a] however you want! that is the power of AttributedDefaultList's!
02:13:39 <adu> ehird: thank you for the technical correction
02:14:36 <faxathisia> Could you embed AttributedDefaultList's in some existing language?
02:16:22 <adu> its easy in python, just subclass both list and defaultdict, and test for int/str in the __getitem__ method
02:17:32 <adu> but that will evaluate the values, which is not right...
02:17:49 <adu> the values in (key:value) pairs must remain unevaluated...
02:18:12 <adu> I'll have to think about it
02:19:37 <adu> the int/str distinction will also imply that the final implemented would have to require at least two types
02:19:41 <ehird> adu: they're basically hash tables.
02:19:45 <ehird> which, if infinite, are functions.
02:19:49 <ehird> so: nothing really revolutionary
02:20:57 <adu> but can a language with only finite hash tables mimic functions?
02:21:19 <adu> I suppose thats what a turing machine is... n/m
02:21:43 <ehird> oklopol: z is still alive
02:22:13 <adu> I wish all hash tables looked the same.
02:22:44 <adu> like when you're editing a cron tab, or updating a customer database, or passing options to a commandline tool
02:22:48 <adu> too many formats
02:25:20 <oklopol> adu: at least i and ehird have invented that, and i'm fairly sure there are languages out there that have it already :)
02:25:42 <oklopol> in fact, the last days i've been thinking about optimizing a pattern-matchable hash-table
02:26:06 <oklopol> which is a generalization of a hash-table, and infinite hash-table, and a function
02:26:16 <adu> like a Haskell-like case statement?
02:26:40 <oklopol> i think a haskell-like LAMBDA might be better...
02:26:55 <adu> cuz that has case builtin
02:27:53 <oklopol> yeah, i assume you're bringing case in to get the pattern matching?
02:28:27 <adu> So it is you (and ehird) who invented my favorite concept!? Many thanks to you, and your ideas
02:28:45 <ehird> we came up with it independantly
02:28:47 <oklopol> it's one of my favorite concepts too
02:29:25 <ehird> ok, i'll go for now.
02:29:28 <ehird> oklopol: make sure to nab Z!
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02:30:56 <oklopol> also been thinking more about graphs a lot, i think those might be my favorite :P
02:31:19 <oklopol> ...oh btw, did i mention GRAPHICA yet in this conversation?
02:31:26 <adu> graphs are cool
02:31:56 <adu> I came up with a way to super-impose a graph-based filesystem ontop of unix
02:32:18 <adu> oklopol: I wrote a matrix row-reduction algorithm in Haskell once, I don't remember much... only the basics
02:32:36 <oklopol> well, you know how the data works in general
02:32:45 <oklopol> just mean the named node tree syntax
02:33:15 <oklopol> may not be correct haskell, but you get it, hopefully
02:33:55 <oklopol> basically, you have a bnf-like description of an object, where a left side leads into a right side which again contains modes that are branched to
02:34:04 <oklopol> say "wtf" if i'm not making sense
02:34:18 <oklopol> this only allows for trees
02:34:27 <oklopol> so, i was thinking, why not expand it a bit
02:34:36 <oklopol> in graphica, you can pass parameters to the nodes
02:34:49 <oklopol> and you have a namespace global to each graph object
02:35:01 <oklopol> now, here comes the interesting part
02:35:08 <oklopol> well, the part i found interesting enough to implement it
02:35:17 <oklopol> you can name nodes as you go
02:35:37 <oklopol> and if you happen to name a node with a name that's already been used
02:35:49 <oklopol> it is considered the same node as earlier
02:35:57 <oklopol> meaning you can carry stuff around and "loop back"
02:36:14 <oklopol> for finite graphs, i find it a very interesting way to create graphs
02:36:31 <oklopol> + refactor a bit to get only one "graphs" there
02:36:41 <oklopol> did you get it? i'd love to show code ;)
02:37:01 <adu> Graphica in {graphic design firm, Mathematica package, graffiti website}?
02:37:35 <oklopol> i guess it's a back...something from graphs + Mathematica
02:37:48 <oklopol> you mean something you've seen published?
02:38:07 <oklopol> i have only spoken about it here and on another chan, basically
02:38:56 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p632626363.txt examples!
02:39:07 <adu> oklopol: no, I was wondering which Graphica you were talking about
02:39:27 <oklopol> the one you haven't heard about, ever
02:39:57 <oklopol> the newer version has lists too, so those could be simplified a bit
02:40:21 <oklopol> :: names a node into the graph namespace
02:40:44 <oklopol> = is redirection of node creation
02:40:58 <oklopol> so you can do stuff like default parameters
02:41:07 <oklopol> without making an additional node.
02:41:58 <oklopol> tell me if you get any of that, it's always nice to get comments
02:45:23 <adu> I'm reading about 20 languages right now
02:45:46 <oklopol> i'm interpreting about two meanings right now
02:46:18 <adu> Theres this one programming language I wish I could remember what it was called
02:50:05 <adu> it was declarative
02:50:35 <adu> All I remember about it was that there was a presentation about it in which he started off with 3 built-in objects, copied them and made new objects
02:54:41 <adu> it was really cool
02:55:17 <adu> well, anyways, its not that important
02:55:29 <adu> I just wanted to show you, becasue I thought you might like it
02:56:46 <faxathisia> 3 built-in objects... t ::= v | t t | λv.t ?
02:57:59 <adu> no, they were things like Identity, Link, and Variable or something
03:08:00 <oklopol> let's make a language based on Nonsense, Nothing and Never
03:08:22 <adu> do any of them take arguments?
03:08:26 <oklopol> Never is obviously the looping construct
03:08:51 <oklopol> Nothing is the basic object
03:08:58 <oklopol> Nonsense is how you make structures
03:09:09 <oklopol> overall, it's a very weird language
03:09:15 <oklopol> i'll continue coding now ;)
03:10:03 <oklopol> me too, i'm just afraid i'm inventing another nopol
03:10:21 <oklopol> (nopol is a language based on no-operation)
03:11:03 <oklopol> it has a weird system of multiple interpreters of nop lists, each executing the next
03:11:54 <Asztal> Never could be some sort of constraints system
03:12:11 <oklopol> Nonsense is what makes it kinda weird ;)
03:12:22 <oklopol> although it is undoubtedly the most interesting sounding
03:12:51 <oklopol> perhaps this is *the language where a program states every program it is not*
03:12:57 <adu> oklopol: is nopol turing-complete?
03:13:13 <oklopol> adu: nopol, unfortunately, is far from ready
03:13:32 <oklopol> the concepts of it are very weird, i see no direct connection to any existing language
03:13:42 <oklopol> there are lists though, so probably.
03:15:15 <oklopol> (whereas in most languages, you can only unnest to a certain degree: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=[] -> [[]] -> [], in nopol, negative nesting lists are possible!)
03:15:33 <oklopol> where did that wikipedia article come from.
03:15:36 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=[]
03:15:57 <oklopol> i love these *intelligent* clients <3
03:22:20 <adu> I can't find it
03:22:43 <adu> it was something short like "clean" or "pure" or "small" or "codeless" or something
03:23:04 <oklopol> that's a haskell-like, iirc
03:30:22 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_(programming_language)
03:30:30 <oklopol> "based on graph rewriting"
03:30:48 <oklopol> i was fearing i'd bump into graph rewriting some day :<
03:34:23 <adu> I found it!
03:34:30 <adu> found it! found it! found it!
03:34:37 <adu> Its called 'subtext'
03:35:06 <adu> http://subtextual.org/
03:41:25 <adu> But anyways, we all know that graphs are representable as a set of triples (see W3C's RDF if you are not convinced), so the idea I had for superimposing a graph structure on a file system was to have a special file (or xattr on the parent dir) that contains a list of tripples (inode, arcName, inode) so that all files in that directory could be part of a graph (and still be within the directory that are in according to VFS).
03:42:15 <adu> thats my graph-on-VFS idea
03:42:29 <oklopol> heh, i actually "came up with" that exact thing today
03:42:35 <oklopol> the theoretical aspect of it
03:42:51 <oklopol> that you can simulate any graph using tuples of three
03:43:11 <adu> kinda like you can simulate finite/infinite lists with pairs ;)
03:43:52 <oklopol> pairs are triples in scheme
03:43:57 <oklopol> if you consider them graphically
03:44:08 <oklopol> it's just there's one "in" and two "outs"
03:44:45 <adu> oh, doubly-linked-lists
03:44:49 <oklopol> which means you can only go one direction inside a list, but a scheme list can represend any tree
03:45:15 <adu> right, all trees can be represented as binary trees
03:45:16 <oklopol> oh, right, i fail a bit here
03:45:28 <oklopol> you can actually point to a pair any times, of course
03:45:35 <oklopol> so makes no sense to call it a triple.
03:45:45 <oklopol> perhaps you could just call it a pair... :D
03:45:56 <adu> that makes sense :)
03:46:08 <adu> at first you were starting to convince me that 2 == 3
03:46:50 <oklopol> was just thinking... it's a bit different from triples as in "nodes with three connections", since with pairs it's "nodes with 2 connections out, and any number of connections in"
03:47:23 <oklopol> a pointer is a one-directional link to another node
03:47:28 <oklopol> and you have two of those links in a pair.
03:47:55 <oklopol> not sure what i'm trying to say here, was hoping i'd hit something profound, but didn't, and kept blabbering ;)
03:54:25 <adu> I think the 3 most important structures to have are Trees Tables and Graphs.
03:54:51 <adu> Since unix already has trees (VFS) and tables (CSV), the only thing left is to superimpose graphs...
03:55:03 <adu> thats why I tried to fit them together :)
03:56:00 <adu> well db's, and like /etc/fstab
03:56:31 <oklopol> well, databases are basically sets
03:57:11 <oklopol> well, everything should be reduced to graphs really
03:57:20 <adu> well, when you consider 'sort' all files are sets :)
03:57:58 <adu> oklopol: no you need tables too, otherwise you would have to make them anyways to ensure rectangularity
03:59:21 <adu> like {{1,2},{3,4}} is rectangular, but {{1}, {2, 3, 4}} is not
04:00:04 <oklopol> i thought you meant something like orthogonality
04:00:25 <adu> which when you consider types (which don't exist in UNIX text), then you can interpret them as DB tables as well, if all elements in a given column are of the same type
04:00:32 <oklopol> which i think has some meaning when it comes to databases.
04:00:38 <adu> like ZigZag-type orthogonality?
04:00:55 <oklopol> something about functional dependencies
04:01:12 <oklopol> the terminology is goddamn robust
04:01:15 <oklopol> everything means everything
04:01:32 <adu> lets write a manifesto about it! :)
04:02:03 <oklopol> let's make an esolang out of it!
04:02:04 <faxathisia> grrr.. I dont want to write a debugger
04:02:20 <oklopol> "everything is everything" is actually my official oklotalk phrase
04:02:47 <adu> I wonder if that would work
04:03:03 <oklopol> well, everything is an object & everything contains all => everything is everything
04:03:26 <oklopol> except i take it to ridiculous extent in some parts of the language.
04:03:51 <adu> I once came up with a model of the universe, only instead of basing things on "Unification" like how an electron and a positron combine to form a photon, but "Separation" as the fundamental action that breaks a photon into an electron and a positron
04:04:19 <oklopol> i don't think i understand enough physics.
04:04:41 <adu> I wonder if its possible to write a language based on Separation (breaking "Nothing" up), rather than Combination (putting Things together).
04:05:08 <adu> make sense?
04:05:29 <oklopol> it's not Nothing that's split
04:05:46 <oklopol> Nonsense is the *all combinations* object
04:06:11 <oklopol> ...and something really poetic
04:06:15 <adu> because when you break "Nothing" into pieces like for example along the "Bit" dimension, then we get two things from that separation("Bit" and "Not Bit"), and we all know that all computation can be represented by this :)
04:06:16 <oklopol> ...and there's the esolang!
04:07:09 <adu> or we could separate again Sep("Bit" along "Truth") = {"True", "False"}
04:07:36 <adu> it really doesn't matter which is which as long as you give each part of a separation a name
04:07:40 <oklopol> ...could there be Nonsense?
04:08:17 <adu> You could call things whatever you want
04:09:07 <adu> I call the root object "Unity", but you can call it "Nothing" they're equivalent when you're talking about the root of everything (which is the same as nothing if you haven't made that distinction yet)
04:09:57 <oklopol> can you recombine, or is there just some serious entanglement?
04:10:05 <oklopol> i prefer the latter, for it sounds less boring
04:10:15 <oklopol> although i don't exactly know what it would mean .
04:10:24 <adu> well, I think that is far down the road
04:10:54 <adu> but I think there is a way of deriving the concept of "Inverse function" and once you have that concept, then Combine = InverseFunction[Sep]
04:11:37 <adu> Separation is like a tree
04:11:52 <adu> depending on how far up the tree you are they may or may not be the same thing
04:12:26 <adu> but since you Can recombine after several separations, it would end up being more like a graph than a tree I think.
04:13:06 <oklopol> hmm, all i can think of is graphica
04:13:27 <oklopol> (i'm fairly incestous about my projects)
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04:15:54 <adu> anyways, i'm getting tired
04:16:08 <adu> maybe I'll be on this weekend, and we can talk about graphica again
04:16:29 <oklopol> i may have a new obsession then, this new thing seems quite interesting
04:17:35 <adu> what new thing?
04:17:59 <oklopol> not a programming language
04:18:04 <oklopol> just some graphical thingie
04:18:22 <oklopol> making a program for representing tree operations graphically
04:18:26 <oklopol> with happy bouncing balls!
04:19:20 <oklopol> an obsession can of course only be a programming language, but you never know what you invent when playing with stuff like this
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04:55:59 <faxathisia> You have read, To Mock A Mockingbird??
04:58:59 <Slereah> I only read two chapters so far.
05:00:03 <faxathisia> Did you write any program to solve the "Make X out of A B C" puzzles?
05:00:37 <Slereah> So far I did the puzzle by hand.
05:01:31 <faxathisia> I also wrote a program in my break but it wasn't complete
05:02:38 <oklopol> okay, how the fuck did i ever program in python... you can't do *anything* without first-class continuations
05:03:16 <faxathisia> I wonder that about anyone who writes in python :P
05:03:56 <faxathisia> It is an interesting program to write though..
05:04:10 <oklopol> well, generators are okay, it's just feels kinda stupid hacking something with them when you are just simulating call/cc in an awkward manner
05:04:27 <faxathisia> (because the complexity is grows so steep)
05:04:29 <Slereah> Good thing I don't know what a first class continuation is!
05:04:40 <Slereah> Otherwise, I might feel self conscious when coding
05:05:10 <oklopol> what i'm trying to do is: i have a sorting algo, a tree structure and a main loop
05:05:40 <oklopol> i should run the sorting function, and every time it changes the tree, the tree should return to the main loop, which would tell it when to return to the sorting algo again
05:05:58 <oklopol> you may realize why i'm having problems.
05:06:14 <oklopol> (or come up with a trivial solution, quickly, tell me)
05:06:55 <oklopol> the mutations of the tree should be shown on the screen, which is why the main loop.
05:07:19 <faxathisia> Yes, I would use call-with-current-continuation for that
05:08:06 <oklopol> seems impossible to do that, while separating 1. the algo 2. the main loop 3. the actual tree 4. the graphical tree with movements
05:08:40 <oklopol> ofc it's trivial to hack up some fucked up shit (if that's the correct term for it)
05:09:12 <oklopol> there would be no problem if i just altered the topmost tree
05:09:28 <oklopol> the problem is, i need to get subtrees, and traverse through them and all :\
05:09:39 <oklopol> so... the LazyList will become HUGGGGGGGGGGGGE
05:10:03 <oklopol> i'm pretty fantastilicious
05:11:59 <Slereah> I think the OISC on the Love Machine 9000 will be something like [space][ bunch of 1's][space][ bunch of 1's][space][ bunch of 1's]...
05:12:46 <Slereah> Possibly two symbols for describing input and outpub
05:15:26 <oklopol> INTERESTING FACT: 9000 is pronounced "nain tausönd" in finnish, and "nain" means "i fuck"
05:16:12 <oklopol> well, pretty much every english words is something naught in finnish
05:17:37 <oklopol> you have to put oklopol in partitive
05:19:43 <Slereah> The Love Machine 9 Oklopolia :o
05:19:58 <oklopol> actually, in that case, it's not "nain", it's "nai"
05:20:16 <Slereah> Also, Oklopolia has 3 o's, so it's good to replace 000
05:20:27 <oklopol> which happens to be lojban for a kind of "no"
05:21:35 <oklopol> "Slereah the Love Machine: 9 oklopolia" could definitely be a gay porn flick title though.
05:21:48 <oklopol> because then it's ...I-tive again
05:21:59 <oklopol> (I-tive is the form where "I" is the subject)
05:22:15 <Slereah> Well, Turing would be proud that his creation serves the purpose of gay sex even today.
05:23:02 <oklopol> call...cc...i.....need......asfdasdf
05:23:12 <Slereah> It always seems weird to me. Turing seems to be the only famous gay scientist without going back to antiquity.
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05:25:54 <oklopol> my opinion that completely differs from everything we know about psychology: homosexuality cannot be born with, all sexualities "grow on you" given enough exposure; the super geniuses are too busy thinking to build up a "deviance", where deviance is something different from the main stream sexuality
05:26:23 <oklopol> i stand firmly behind that ridiculous assertion!
05:26:33 <Slereah> So Turing saved his week ends for deviance building?
05:30:17 <oklopol> basically, i'd want to use call/cc to send a continuation to the sort function implicitly, so that it'd get passed to the tree functions, which would call/cc the continuation with their own continuation
05:30:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd guess that an entirely nature or an entirely nurture explanation for homosexuality is oversimplifying things. Homosexuality is associated with notably different brain chemistry (for the person's gender), so I'd guess there's an inherited propensity that's either repressed or reinforced based on the person's experiences
05:30:36 <oklopol> so it'd be Main -> Sort -> Tree -> Main -> Tree -> Sort -> Tree -> Main -> Tree etc
05:31:04 <RodgerTheGreat> Many diseases, conditions and other types of deviations work like this.
05:31:30 <oklopol> now solve my python problem!
05:31:43 <bsmntbombdood> i think it's helpful to think of sexual orientations and paraphilias as the same thing
05:32:21 <oklopol> yeah, doesn't feel so bad when you realize you have all of them
05:33:09 <oklopol> hmm, people are leaving for school
05:33:35 <bsmntbombdood> and of course (bi|pan)sexuality is the perfect state, with no paraphilias :P
05:33:40 <Slereah> I'm leaving in one hour and a half
05:33:54 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: depends what paraphilia means
05:34:19 <bsmntbombdood> i'm using paraphilia to mean an inability to become sexually aroused without a certain stimulus
05:34:47 <oklopol> but not as "*will* get stimulus also out of certain stimuli"
05:35:07 <oklopol> i think that's a more common definition, although i'd rather agree with yours
05:35:46 <oklopol> well, let's say can get aroused.
05:35:54 <bsmntbombdood> your standard gynephile certainly isn't aroused by all women
05:35:59 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: saying pansexuality is a perfect state is analagous to saying that an undifferentiated infant brain is a perfect state.
05:36:30 <bsmntbombdood> no, it's like saying a brain with no prejudices is the perfect state
05:36:31 <oklopol> or, a matter of opinion about sexuality
05:36:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I find "perfect" to be more useful in this case when defined as "closest to average"
05:37:00 <bsmntbombdood> perfect has to be defined as farther than the farthest from average...
05:37:30 <RodgerTheGreat> closest to average is equivalent to closest to the intended design, from an evolutionary standpoint.
05:37:32 <oklopol> everyone's perfect, have a medal and some candy!
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05:38:12 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: sure about that? perhaps closest to a local maximum, but i don't think that's necessarily perfect
05:38:20 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why "perfect" isn't a very appropriate term here- it brings with it many connotations that don't make any sense in this context
05:39:01 <oklopol> i think it was quite unambiguous, but i also think RodgerTheGreat is always right.
05:39:13 <oklopol> i don't see any problem with having contradictory opinions though.
05:39:35 <Slereah> But also you see problems with it!
05:39:58 <bsmntbombdood> for example, the perfect value for the number of legs in a human is of course the average, but the perfect value of facial-hotness is far above average
05:40:35 <Slereah> I like my faces with legs on them
05:41:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't have the paper to back myself up here, but some studies I've read suggest that the "ideal" or "perfect" face is in many ways, geometrically, an average of facial variability
05:42:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the perfect face can be geometrically defined in terms of the "Golden Ratio"
05:42:56 * oklopol makes a pun about the shower with the same name to lighten things up
05:43:14 <RodgerTheGreat> If we ignore population distribution of different features, the ideal body image is pretty close to an average, too
05:43:40 <RodgerTheGreat> somewhere between fat and skinny, between short and tall, etc
05:43:43 <bsmntbombdood> if a certain feature becomes common, it will cease to be used for sexual selection
05:44:32 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: I'm getting there- it's important to recognize that these averages can change over time, and so, accordingly, will this definition of "perfection"
05:45:10 <RodgerTheGreat> if everyone is within less than a standard deviation of "perfection" in a feature, for example, it will be naturally less valued
05:45:48 <bsmntbombdood> i was talking about an average attractiveness rating, and you were talking about the average distance betweens eyes, etc
05:48:12 <Slereah> Let's build the perfect people!
05:49:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think plastic surgery is nuanced enough for that just yet
05:49:49 <RodgerTheGreat> and really, wouldn't the availability of perfection cheapen it?
05:50:15 <Slereah> Well, I'll only do it for like a bajillion dollars
05:51:56 <RodgerTheGreat> The other thing to consider is that most people color their visions of perfection with their own preferences and the preferences that have been instilled in them by mass media, upbringing, etc. There does exist a single ideal, but everyone has their own deviating model for beauty. That's why it's entirely possible for two people to disagree about the attractiveness of someone, with both being correct
05:55:18 <RodgerTheGreat> as I was saying before, many of the words used here are pretty treacherous because they carry too many implications
05:57:30 <oklopol> can you think of a better pun from that?
05:57:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I was going to say "perfect", but that would've been pretty subtle
05:58:56 <oklopol> and on a related subject, i got my iterator working!
05:59:37 <oklopol> i'm not sure if it works if you have english as your native language
05:59:53 <oklopol> let's = let us, tried my best to interpret that as a direct order
06:00:09 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: unfortunately just something simple i'm doing in python
06:00:46 <oklopol> it's funny how functional languages have call/cc, and you actually *need* it most with imperative stuff :D
06:00:53 <oklopol> at least that's my experience
06:01:14 <oklopol> often need to do some kinda collaborative threading when doing computation and drawing at the same time
06:01:30 <oklopol> well, i guess that's the main case.
06:01:52 <lament> scheme is pretty imperative
06:04:40 <RodgerTheGreat> in my opinion, functional languages are pretty and clean looking, but are an *inherently* inefficient way of programming, because they don't work remotely like conventional hardware does. Magical perfect compilers that can optimize in every conceivable fashion could theoretically balance this, but Magical perfect compilers do not exist. I like my imperative languages.
06:05:08 <GregorR> I can't find a better right bracket in high Unicode that Firefox supports for punycode than 2046 (right square bracket with quill)
06:05:09 <RodgerTheGreat> for esolangs, they can be quite fun brain exercises, though
06:05:43 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i don't need efficiency though
06:06:02 <GregorR> If I buy http://,[.,].com, will anybody put content there? :p
06:06:18 <oklopol> well, it'd be 99bottles except for cats
06:06:43 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: why not? how i see it, is computers are so fast nothing can possibly be slow on them :-)
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06:07:23 <Slereah> oklopol:That's what I thought!
06:07:34 <Slereah> Until I ran some LazyBird program
06:07:41 <RodgerTheGreat> ow, ow. My brain is hurting. Everything I've ever learned about algorithms and programming fights this concept
06:08:04 <oklopol> okay, sorry, i'll try to be less mentally violent
06:08:23 <Slereah> ``m``s``bs``b`s``c``b``c`t`k0ki#``c``bc``c``bc``b`ci`k.xri``c``bb``sii``b``c``bc``b`bc``c``bc``b`bb``cb``b`bttkii``b`m``sbi``sb`m``sbi
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06:08:36 <Slereah> It takes minutes upon minutes to display!
06:09:33 <Slereah> It prints 20 *, then 19, then 18, and so on. The program stops after 1.
06:12:29 <oklopol> i love it when trivial stuff takes ages
06:12:43 <oklopol> you really feel you're giving your machine a task
06:12:47 <Slereah> It's pretty much... ((^x.xx)(^xy.(y is zero) (v)(y(print *)(xx predy)))n
06:13:11 <Slereah> Where v is the unlambda v.
06:13:20 <Slereah> (Except it's # in the code)
06:13:37 <oklopol> pretty much like that? so i'll just check what that does, get the general picture and guess the rest?
06:13:54 <oklopol> wait for a week, i'll look
06:14:17 <Slereah> I probably have the thing written in lambda-for-lazy-bird somewhere
06:15:38 <GregorR> Dern, ehird` isn't here to encourage me to buy ,].com :P
06:16:06 <GregorR> Will YOU put content there?
06:16:14 <oklopol> it'll be full of lolcats and cat's in different langs!
06:16:24 <Slereah> What kind of content do you want!
06:16:35 <oklopol> CATS MAYBE? DID I SUGGEST THAT YET?
06:16:53 <oklopol> i want a cat, they're awesome
06:17:25 <GregorR> I was thinking ... y'know ... stuff about BF :P
06:17:38 <Slereah> ``m^x^y``````s`o`k`k0`kky#```y.xri``xx```s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s`k`s`kkk`k``s`k`s`k`s`k`si``s`k`s`k`s``s`ksk``s`k`s`k`s`kk``s`k`s`kkk`k`kk`k`k`kiy^f^x`f`f`f`fx
06:17:44 <Slereah> Here's a vaguely lambda version
06:17:56 <Slereah> But it's probably not a working one
06:18:37 <oklopol> GregorR: ok then, brainfuck cat programs
06:18:53 <Slereah> Well, it will be a short website
06:18:59 * oklopol thinks his cat suggestion doesn't work as supposed
06:19:05 <Slereah> Hell, the content is in the adress!
06:19:44 <GregorR> It's the closest I can get to ] that works (at least in FFox)
06:20:46 <GregorR> oklopol: Get a better IRC client :P
06:21:00 <GregorR> Doesn't work in Konq, but Konq doesn't seem to support Punycode at all (this version)
06:21:30 <oklopol> i don't think i'm man enough
06:21:43 <Slereah> But... are you BAD ENOUGH A DUDE?
06:21:53 <Slereah> Are you TOO TOUGH FOR HELL TO CONTAIN?
06:22:05 <Slereah> When you will be, at last Hell will play fair.
06:23:16 <GregorR> Can somebody with Opera, IE or Safari go to ،⁆.com and see what happens?
06:27:45 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Have an alternate browser?
06:28:13 <GregorR> Even one other browser agreeing would be nice :P
06:28:47 <bsmntbombdood> he URL http://،⁆.com contains characters that are not valid in the location they are found.
06:29:33 <GregorR> Uhhh, it works fine for me in FFox
06:29:38 <GregorR> It must not have copied properly.
06:30:32 <bsmntbombdood> when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com"
06:31:18 <GregorR> I've already tested it in FFox, it works there ;P
06:33:14 <Slereah> Maybe in Imagination Land!
06:33:33 <GregorR> ... you both just confirmed that it works.
06:36:52 <Slereah> Solid state physics exam in one hour :(
06:37:17 <GregorR> You people and your physical universe.
06:38:59 <Slereah> Think of it as a gigantic game of Life!
06:41:31 <Slereah> Although tht typo makes it look stupid
06:41:59 <oklopol> (more like 100, but anyways)
06:42:39 * GregorR isn't doing anything winter term :P
06:43:00 <GregorR> Except for buying random brainfuck-themed web pages of course :P
06:43:07 <GregorR> (Or considering it anyway)
06:45:58 <Slereah> In a Kolmogorov machine, do the vertex contains symbols?
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06:54:41 <oklopol> slereah__: i don't think so
06:55:28 <oklopol> the esolang page description sounds awfully close to graphica...
06:56:00 <oklopol> in case that's what it's equivalent to, i consider it pretty advanced though.
06:56:18 <oklopol> (although i haven't yet implemented the rewriting part)
07:16:25 <GregorR> OK, if I bought this BF-themed domain name, nobody would put anything there.
07:17:28 <GregorR> I already have four domain names .... that's $40/yr 8-O
07:18:04 <oklopol> it's about being spontaneous
07:18:09 <GregorR> In that case, give me $5! :P
07:27:09 <GregorR> Opera can't handle it anyway :(
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08:06:54 <GregorR> Heh, I can get a C-ish domain :P
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11:00:34 <slereah__> Is there anything with an example of the execution of a Kogloglo machine?
11:00:45 <slereah__> The closest I can find is the wiki article with the pointer machines
11:01:23 <slereah__> But the Glook machine is apparently poorly documented on the interweb.
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14:09:54 <slereah__> So RodgerTheGreat, how tall are you?
14:12:09 <RodgerTheGreat> although I think you're using the wrong definition of "great" there
14:13:28 <RodgerTheGreat> "(the Great) a title denoting the most important person of the name. ex: Alexander the Great"
14:14:09 <RodgerTheGreat> lucky for me, "Rodger" isn't a tremendously common name, so I don't have as much competition as some people
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14:30:27 <ehird> who wants to work on the underload->c compiler!
14:35:15 <Slereah> And I do'nt know much of Underload
14:36:08 <ehird> underload is digestible in a few minutes
14:36:12 <ehird> also, the compiler isn't written in C
14:36:59 <Slereah> Yes, but you must translate it to C!
14:38:46 <ehird> Sure... but it's very simple :P
14:40:12 <Slereah> Well, the... second attempt at the Love Machine 9000 was a LV9->C compiler
14:40:22 <Slereah> But boy was I in for a disappointment!
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14:44:57 <ehird> Underload is simple.
15:13:34 <Slereah> I'm not very used to stacks
15:23:58 <ehird> i'll explain that to you:
15:24:06 <ehird> code [stackelement,stackelement,...,top]
15:24:32 <ehird> :aSS [:aSS] (...) just pushes what's in it to the stack, like a string
15:24:45 <ehird> aSS [:aSS,:aSS] : duplicates
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15:25:01 <ehird> SS [:aSS,(:aSS)] 'a' wraps the top string on the stack in parens.
15:25:18 <ehird> S [:aSS] we output the top, and pop it. (:aSS), that is
15:25:24 <ehird> [] we output the top, and pop it. :aSS, that is
15:25:29 <ehird> so: we outputted "(:aSS):aSS"
15:25:35 <ehird> which is our code, ergo we have a quine!
15:25:42 <ehird> Slereah: got that?
15:27:36 <ehird> Slereah: It's turing complete by way of ^
15:27:53 <ehird> i'll step you through (:^):^
15:28:09 <ehird> :^ [:^] we push the stuff in parens to the stack
15:28:18 <ehird> ^ [:^,:^] duplicate
15:28:34 <ehird> :^ [:^] pop an element off the stack, and place it after the current instruction
15:28:41 <ehird> ^ [:^,:^] duplicate
15:28:43 <ehird> :^ [:^] pop an element off the stack, and place it after the current instruction
15:29:32 <ehird> Slereah: now combined with 'a' to enclose the top element in parens, and * to concatentate the top two elements together, and you make kinda-self-modifying-stuff-thingies to do loops etc
15:31:04 <Slereah> Love the self interpreter.
15:37:22 <Slereah> Time for pen and paper programming.
15:37:36 <Slereah> On the table, unary OISC :O
15:39:29 <Slereah> If I substract a negative value, should it add?
15:46:57 <Slereah> I assume negative adress locations should be treated as errors?
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16:23:31 <Slereah> A Turing machine is a poor device for arithmetic.
16:42:47 <Slereah> It's mostly the travel on the tape to one adress to the other for substraction that bothers me
16:44:15 <Slereah> Hm. Now that I think of it, instead of copying the code on a second tape to avoid losing some stuff while working on it, I could just replace 1's with some symbol to mean that they've been used.
16:47:49 <RodgerTheGreat> yes. That's how we learned to use TMs in my formal models of computation class
16:48:01 <RodgerTheGreat> we actually worked exclusively with single-tape machines
16:49:18 <Slereah> I usually start big programs on two tapes.
16:49:29 <Slereah> And then try to reduce it to one.
16:50:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno if you're using an alternate notation, but I think single-tape is really the easiest to read
16:51:02 <Slereah> Well, Brainfuck on three tapes was really easy.
16:51:37 <Slereah> Unlike that one tape thingy! http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/BRAINFUCK%20INTERPRETER%20ON%20A%20ONE.htm
16:51:54 <Slereah> I have some half-working version, but I should finish it someday
16:59:32 <Slereah> On three tapes, I didn't even need markers, apart for the bracket-markers!
16:59:43 <Slereah> It was just code-memory-counter
17:07:16 <RodgerTheGreat> well, that's rather missing the point of a turing machine, eh?
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17:58:01 <Slereah> Idea : Objective programming language.
17:58:12 <Slereah> I've got to figure out what command A = A could be.
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18:18:43 <adu> I'm learning about factor
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18:22:35 <adu> oops wrong channel
18:22:53 <adu> SimonRC: has oklopol talked to you about "Graphica"?
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18:24:27 <oklopol> adu: sorry, i slept pretty much all day :)
18:24:56 <oklopol> when my friends start going to school, i lol at them and take 12 hours of sleep!
18:25:22 <Slereah> Are you sure it's because of that?
18:25:28 <Slereah> Maybe you have narcolepsia
18:25:44 <oklopol> i think it's just laziness
18:26:11 <oklopol> was fully awake at 12.00 (now 20:29), and 17:00 at least
18:26:28 <adu> oh hehe me2
18:26:41 <oklopol> but you know, "so... irc... or continue fucking chicks in my dreams"
18:26:46 <adu> oklopol: its snowing in DC, so I didn't goto work today
18:27:25 <Slereah> oklopol: Go on IRC, and have cybersex!
18:27:28 * adu doesn't feel like that was very revealing, since my domain name probably has ".dc." in it somewhere...
18:27:49 <oklopol> i once had cybersex on irc, not as fun as you'd think xD
18:28:07 <adu> I never had cybersex in IRC, only in AIM ;)
18:28:30 <oklopol> that's more fun, since you get vid
18:28:42 <Slereah> Man, I regret starting this topic.
18:29:35 <adu> oklopol: my favorite esolang!
18:30:01 <SimonRC> oklopol: bah, you and your dreams
18:30:27 <SimonRC> my favoirite schduling system
18:30:33 <adu> Haiku <- my favorite OS
18:30:39 <SimonRC> or management style, orwhatever
18:30:49 <SimonRC> ColorForth <- my favorite OS
18:31:08 <SimonRC> by Chuck "and application should be 2-4k" Moore
18:31:10 <Slereah> XP <- Really, I'm starting to regret switching to Linux
18:31:32 <adu> It would be BeOS if it wasn't disolved when Palm bought it, but Haiku is the closest thing to BeOS that still exists, so thats why it is my favorite
18:31:33 -!- oklopol has set topic: The channel of offtopic nonsense..
18:32:05 -!- SimonRC has set topic: The channel of esoteric programming and sometimes offtopic nonsense when we aren't discu.
18:32:05 <oklopol> adu: have you seen Emoticon, a similar lang
18:32:19 <adu> who said that?
18:32:20 -!- SimonRC has set topic: The channel of esoteric programming and sometimes offtopic nonsense when we aren't discussing esoteric programming.
18:32:23 <adu> anyone who regrets switching to Linux has something wrong in their head
18:32:46 <oklopol> yeah, like the fact windows worked better
18:32:49 <SimonRC> or rather, sound "systems"
18:33:10 <adu> when has Windows every worked better than linux?
18:33:13 <SimonRC> alsa and esd on one machine play together poorly
18:33:22 <adu> As far back as I remember linux has always worked better
18:33:30 <SimonRC> adu: when I want to use excel
18:33:32 <oklopol> adu: my windows worked better than my linux.
18:33:57 <oklopol> but, i've tried only one linux installation, so not that fair.
18:34:05 <adu> which one?
18:34:21 <adu> good choice!
18:34:27 <adu> which version?
18:34:43 <oklopol> but ther right word starting with F
18:36:39 <Slereah> adu: Problem is, nothing works
18:36:39 <oklopol> yesterday, my mouse started lagging suddenly, started taking longer and longer lag pauses, and finally stopped moving... only way to resolve was to press reset :D
18:37:19 <adu> Slereah: I agree, and Vista makes it even worse
18:37:32 <SimonRC> did you try killing and restarting X?
18:37:36 <Slereah> Actually, I was refering to Linux.
18:37:55 <Slereah> I'm probably doing it wrong, but I can't get most things to work.
18:38:12 <SimonRC> well, making things work is what commercial Linuxes are for
18:38:16 <oklopol> then, sometimes when i open vlc or a python program using pygame, the screen makes a loud clicking sounds and becomes a rainbow of screen fragments... basically the screen is divided into a thousand rectangles, which are scrambled around randomly
18:38:19 <SimonRC> and the big organised ones
18:38:33 <Slereah> Does Kubuntu qualify as commercial?
18:38:42 <oklopol> sometimes the machine just reboots automatically
18:39:02 <oklopol> and then, sometimes, the screen just goes black and there's an "X" in the middle
18:39:29 <oklopol> SimonRC: by pressing ctrl+alt+backspace? how did you do that again
18:39:42 <oklopol> also, restarting X == restarting the computer
18:40:37 <oklopol> if you don't count the different kinds of rebooting, then there's of course the 5 minute lag pauses every now and then :D
18:41:01 <oklopol> xchat did that all the time, but that happens for other stuff too
18:41:36 <oklopol> then there was this log i was supposed to check to see why it reboots... there's never anything there :D
18:42:33 <oklopol> most of this may be my fault, but that's a bit beside the point, since i didn't have problems with XP.
18:42:53 <oklopol> but i might try another distro before changing back
18:43:32 <adu> oklopol: can you "cat | tee | grep" in XP?
18:44:57 <adu> "cat file1 | tee file2 | cmd3"<CTCP>takes file1, coppies it to file2, then passes it onto cmd3
18:45:25 <adu> its really nice for saving intermediate results in long pipe-commands
18:46:16 <adu> like "sort Unsorted.txt | tee Sorted.txt | grep Keyword > SortedWithKeyword.txt"
18:46:30 <oklopol> i've never liked the idea of a sequential file; think oses should consider files an object.
18:46:51 <adu> there needs to less separation between models
18:47:37 <oklopol> yeah, that's my reason for not being that happy about linux' io features, i think it's still pretty primitive
18:47:47 <adu> I think all models should be part of a single model, where each model can be both restricted (take methods away), and exposed (add more methods)
18:48:18 <adu> my favorite examples are integers
18:48:38 <oklopol> Slereah: i'll first make oklotalk, then okloOS :)
18:48:59 <Slereah> What will the OSKLOSOS be like!
18:49:47 <adu> There are so many views and models of integers, there is the BoundedInteger model (which maps to a BitArray), then there is the BitArray model itself, then there is UnboundedInteger (which maps to a subset of the Reals, and BitArrays could be described by List<Bool> (where lists have even more methods, like sorting)... and so on
18:49:52 <oklopol> oklotalk's stdlib doesn't easily allow you to consider files as streams anyway, so i was thinking why not just make an underlying os that let's you store any kind of object as a file
18:50:21 <oklopol> adu: what do you mean "part of a single model"?
18:50:25 <adu> I think if you could combine the models different systems have for integers and bitarrays, then the metamodel that allows you to do that would have so many applications
18:50:43 <oklopol> like, that there would be a separation between the theory and th practise
18:51:00 <oklopol> you'd have a declarative definition for an integer, and different implementations?
18:51:06 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you mean
18:51:15 <adu> oklopol: ZODB does that
18:51:39 <adu> oklopol: are you familiar with OOP?
18:51:54 <adu> model == class
18:52:06 <adu> metamodel == metaclass
18:52:15 <adu> model == class == metaobject
18:52:27 <adu> metamodel == metaclass == meta-meta-object
18:52:45 <SimonRC> I am pretty sure object-base FSes have been done already
18:52:57 <adu> what I find the most odd is that OMG defines 4 levels, then says "there are no others"
18:53:02 <oklopol> probably, that doesn't make me want to make my own.
18:54:39 <adu> oklopol: ZODB is a library for Python in which all you have to do is subclass Persistant, and all you modifications to that object are stored in a DB
18:57:08 <adu> what I mean by "part of a single model" is that (char *), GString, QString, KString, Haskell's [Char], Python's str(), and perl scalars, should all be subclasses of a more general String class in some language that supports each of these languages as a module.
18:58:15 <adu> I know that sounds Java/.Net-ish, but it is where we are headed anyways, since so many people are doing it
19:00:08 <oklopol> yeah, everyting should be an oklobject
19:00:43 <Slereah> Oh oklopol, you and your oklo-everything!
19:01:35 <adu> but generally speaking, the tendancy is to start anew with a fresh taxonomy, and this is exactly why we have so many taxonomies
19:03:40 <oklopol> indeed. but conversions between types aren't exactly hard to do...
19:03:53 <oklopol> Universal Uniting Language
19:04:10 <oklopol> that specifies conversions between types
19:04:11 <adu> what I've been trying to do is find some way of "importing" current taxonomies under a single root, thus acheiving an ad-hoc version of a single model
19:04:11 <adu> anyways its something to think about :)
19:04:25 <adu> it is if you are converting between a MySQL database and an HTML form.
19:04:42 <adu> then its hard
19:05:27 <oklopol> indeed, luckily, i don't care about stuff like this, i just koed :)
19:05:41 <adu> what is "koed"?
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19:17:43 <SimonRC> If you tooke the best of all languages, you would have a language in which you could both (1)put IO operations anywhere without affecting the type of the function (as in C#) and (2)be able to prove that a function has no IO operations just be looking at its type
19:18:25 <SimonRC> also, it would be fully strict and fully lazy
19:19:08 <SimonRC> and it would have an OO system as powerful as CLISP's yet as simple as Smalltalk's
19:19:57 <SimonRC> it would have the dynamic capabilities of ruby with the static provability of epigram
19:20:17 <SimonRC> not having things is a feature too
19:20:31 <SimonRC> which means some things cannot be combined sensibly
19:20:58 <SimonRC> OTOH, many things can be sensibly combined
19:21:51 <SimonRC> Haskell doesn't have easily-used mixed-type lists
19:22:28 <SimonRC> and there is no way to attempt to cast types to typeclasses
19:22:46 <SimonRC> you can't ask "is this an instance of Ord?"
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19:25:50 -!- ehird has set topic: The channel of offtopic nonsense when we aren't discussing esoteric programming.
19:25:54 <ehird> fixed the topic for y'all
19:26:11 -!- Slereah has set topic: What is the title of this topic?.
19:48:37 <Slereah> what's the Kooglomooh book that contains a description of the Andrey machine?
19:51:18 <Slereah> Since the one I found is $309, I'd better make sure it's the one I want!
20:03:28 <ehird> TAOCP costs like 150 over here
20:04:46 <Slereah> Most science books are horribly expensive.
20:05:07 <Slereah> Probably to make up the fact that no one wants them
20:05:25 <ehird> I want The Art of Computer Programming! :(
20:05:45 <ehird> (btw 150 = about $987 nowadays.)
20:07:23 <Slereah> Man, evenAbebooks doesn't seem to have "On the definition of an algorithm"
20:13:36 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:25:06 <oklopol> SimonRC: not all my dreams are fun and joy though, just remembered another dream when in the basement: so, these two gay guys were having sex in my living room, and i told them to leave, because i had guests coming... they did start to leave, but i noticed the other one had dropped his glans, so i told him to take it with him... well, suddenly it disappeared, and i started looking for it, terrified that i'd not find it and a guest would
20:25:22 <oklopol> luckily, after i had looked for a while, he told me he'd eaten it
20:25:43 <oklopol> i hope you enjoyed that, i sure did!
20:25:48 <Slereah> Well, that was considerate of him.
20:26:15 <Slereah> Let's try to interpret that dream!
20:26:43 <Slereah> Repressed homosexuality, and you went to sleep on an empty stomach.
20:27:46 <Slereah> The guests representing your peers.
20:28:09 <Slereah> "Go secret gayness, and take your cocks with you!'
20:28:43 <oklopol> lucky i don't believe in that stuff
20:29:14 <Slereah> Otherwise, you'd have to buy tighter pants!
20:30:48 <Slereah> Which is why you shouldn't catch is!
20:31:31 <oklopol> can you be gay without aids?! :ooo this turned my world upside down!!
20:32:37 <Slereah> This is my story, all about how
20:32:48 <Slereah> My life got twisted turned upside down
20:33:06 <Slereah> And I'd like to take a minute just sit right there
20:33:10 <Slereah> I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-Air
20:34:41 <oklopol> now to implement a red-black tree and watch it wimble and womble!
20:40:26 <ehird> i really need to pick a language & stick with it
20:40:58 <Slereah> Pick a really horrible one that's neither practical or interesting.
20:44:42 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: poisoning yourself with alcohol agin?
20:45:07 <bsmntbombdood> should have about a gallon of vodka in 2 or so weeks
20:46:11 <oklopol> read http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?a=52 and http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?a=54 for a touching story about the perils of alcohol
20:48:16 <oklopol> didn't you read the topic :)
20:49:02 <oklopol> there exists also a third language
20:50:19 <bsmntbombdood> "Fuke tu! Ja no ee i last notte sleepet!" - "Fuck you! Yeah, last time i didn't sleep"
20:50:46 <oklopol> most of it is simplified english
20:50:57 <oklopol> although it has some quite different structures as well
20:51:50 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/s/$anasto.txt
20:52:08 <ehird> oklopol: that'll be very helpful to bsmntbombdood
20:52:34 <oklopol> how could i remember what language that's in :D
20:53:15 <oklopol> assumed it was english-zx3
20:56:49 <oklopol> perhaps you could open an alcohol store
21:05:41 <oklopol> sounds like a hard job! :D
21:07:31 <oklopol> i'll have to give it a bitta thought
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21:35:56 <Slereah> American Mathematical Society Translations: Series 2, Volume 29: 12 PAPERS ON LOGIC AND DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS
21:36:13 <Slereah> I'm having a hard time finding a description of it
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22:15:59 <ehird> make a precedentless infix syntax that does not require parens or special markers to disambiguate ANY expression
22:16:06 <ehird> you merely have to rearrange the equation
22:17:12 <oklopol> finefix was my attempt at that
22:17:22 <oklopol> but ofc you can't have it fully infix
22:17:28 <oklopol> without adding dummy values
22:17:32 <ehird> well yeah, of course the rules would be crazy
22:17:45 <ehird> 2+2+3 doesn't even have to do what you expect :P
22:17:49 <oklopol> it's easy to prove impossible.
22:17:50 <ehird> just something that is "operand operator operand"
22:18:01 <ehird> doesn't have to look like any regular infix
22:18:32 <ehird> finefix requires operator duplication
22:18:34 <ehird> which is not "operand operator operand"
22:18:36 <oklopol> uses postfix-like semantics for situations where you need other than left-to-right precedence
22:18:50 <oklopol> umm, as i said, that's trivial to prove impossible.
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22:19:49 <oklopol> i love assuming people leaving means "fuck you"
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22:28:34 <ehird`> automake requires ncurses *why*?
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22:32:35 <ehird`> i ought to make my magical-golf-site
22:32:53 <ehird`> it'd be like that golf site: shows source length, checks the output by running it in a sandbox, etc
22:32:58 <ehird`> but: other people could add challenges
22:33:02 <ehird`> and the source would be viewable
22:33:12 <ehird`> challenge #1: compact the source code of the site itself
22:39:51 <ehird`> ... nobody likes that idea :(
22:41:05 <timotiis> sorry, thinking about other things
22:46:20 <ehird`> oklopol: it exists but is down right now, and iti sn't as cool
22:46:25 <ehird`> you cant' add challenges or view the source
22:47:08 <oklopol> or, was that there, or your idea?
22:47:20 <oklopol> i know there are a lot of pages like that
22:55:29 <ehird`> challenge #1 would be cool
22:55:38 <ehird`> it would run a huge unit test suite on it,
22:55:45 <ehird`> and check the generated html, when parsed, is equivilent
22:55:53 <ehird`> if so: update the site to run on it immediately
22:55:59 <ehird`> ok maybe without the update the site immediately part :P
22:56:32 <oklopol> might be interesting to have a site that takes a year to generate.
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23:01:09 <ehird`> oklopol: of course i'd have to decide what language to write the site in
23:01:13 <ehird`> and i'm between languages right now
23:05:23 <ehird`> oklopol: just can't decide which i like most for practical things :)
23:08:53 <ehird`> oklopol: any suggestions?
23:09:38 <oklopol> i can suggest making AsmScript, and using that
23:10:14 <ehird`> i wsa looking for realistic ones
23:10:27 <oklopol> it has everything a web programmer needs, as easily memorizable short mnemonics, while being exTREMEly efficient!
23:10:40 <oklopol> yeah, well, that's not my specialty.
23:12:04 <ehird`> oklopol: not just web stuff
23:12:11 <ehird`> i just mean: generic, practical stuff
23:12:31 <ehird`> hacks generally on the smaller side but i don't want it to die in practicality if something i write grows.
23:12:52 <ehird`> oklopol: where's that oklotalk operator precedence thing again?
23:13:07 <oklopol> oklotalkspec in www.vjn.fi/mb
23:13:17 <oklopol> if you can figure the interface out :)
23:14:36 <ehird`> yes: the interface is what i was really looking for
23:14:38 <ehird`> it says written in python iirc
23:14:45 <ehird`> did you just use the cgi module? :P
23:14:50 <ehird`> hmm it doesn't say that
23:14:53 <ehird`> you must have said that
23:20:15 <ehird`> oklopol: "Loading very unacomplised. Super am sory :("
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23:46:33 <ehird`> is there a brainfuck compiler that does constant folding?
23:48:24 <ehird`> (also: yikes, Perl parsing is almost *certainly* turing-complete...)
23:48:35 <ehird`> Though successful in creating a Perl parser for document-related purposes, the PPI project determined that parsing Perl code as a document (retaining its integrity) and as executable code simultaneously was, in fact, not possible. Specifically the author claimed that, "parsing Perl suffers from the 'Halting Problem.'"
23:55:23 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: exactly
23:55:40 <ehird`> i've only seen you about 3-5 times actually lament
23:55:42 <ehird`> but not for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages
23:56:22 <lament> it's because i live in a city deep under the sea
23:56:39 <lament> once every thousand years or so, the city rises to the surface and wireless starts working
23:59:23 <ehird`> I thought you said you lived here