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00:27:32 <ehird> "... Unfortunately, Ossanna's troff was written in PDP-11 assembly language and produced output specifically for the CAT phototypesetter. He rewrote it in C, although it was now 7000 lines of uncommented code and still dependent on the CAT. As the CAT became less common, and was no longer supported by the manufacturer, the need to make it support other devices became a priority. However, before this could be done, Ossanna died. ..."
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00:44:17 <Sgeo> ..Where have I seen "Troff" before?
00:56:54 <GregorR> troff is the markup language used by man pages.
00:57:28 <GregorR> Or rather, roff is the markup and troff is the default implementation, or something like that.
01:08:19 <Sgeo> I remember seeing it mentioned in some For Dummies book
01:13:42 <pikhq> GregorR: The format used by man pages is actually only a set of macros in troff.
01:13:50 <pikhq> Rull-on troff gets even worse. ;)
01:31:34 * Sgeo is going to go to sleep soon, maybe I'll have a decent amount of sleep tonight!
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01:50:26 <Sgeo> G'night all. Here's hoping for remembered lucid dreams..
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05:05:49 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1204607128-Censored.png <- new cartoon guys!
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05:32:17 <pikhq> And yes, I do want to know. :p
05:32:48 <RodgerTheGreat> heheh. Glad to see you enjoyed it, pikhq. What do you think of the new look?
05:33:08 <pikhq> Your art looks *really* good inked and colored like that. :)
05:33:21 <pikhq> Not quite Dresden Codak level, but pretty good.
05:33:50 <RodgerTheGreat> well, naturally- I think he takes more than an hour and a half to do his, for one thing
05:33:51 <pikhq> Of course, DC is nearly a god of webcomicry, so. . .
05:34:05 <pikhq> I suspect as much, myself.
05:34:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking about buying/making a font of my handwriting for the speech bubbles and things, though
05:34:53 <pikhq> Comic Sans is 'Meh'.
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07:14:56 <oklokok> nothing more refreshing than a good 14 hours of sleep
07:17:43 <oklokok> "<ehird> get a client that knows what flooding is" <<< iirc, konversation warns when you're about to start a flood, but it does not do the actually useful part of slowing down the flood.
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07:21:44 <oklokok> i want to know too, make another cartoon with just that one square
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15:19:54 * AnMaster just got a SQL error on esolang wiki
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17:38:55 <AnMaster> anyone got an idea for some new language, turing tarpit style, but not just some variation of brainfuck or similar languages
17:39:33 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I am a tremendous fan of stack-based languages, and there are many unique and painful ways to do that in a minimalistic fashion
17:39:46 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, got any link so I can read up on that?
17:40:01 <RodgerTheGreat> providing only pancake-flips or something like that for deep stack manipulation could be fun
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17:40:19 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack-oriented_programming_language
17:41:12 <RodgerTheGreat> your code won't look anything like BF, and although there are already esolangs that are stack-oriented, there are a lot of new and different ideas you can explore
17:41:39 <RodgerTheGreat> or it could inspire you to create queue-oriented languages or a similar monstrosity
17:42:23 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, got any examples of existing stack based esoteric languages?
17:42:40 <ehird> .... thousands, really
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17:43:03 <AnMaster> ehird, err wait, befunge is 2D hm
17:43:17 <ehird> wonderful underload <3
17:43:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Funge-98
17:43:37 <ehird> for all values of N
17:43:40 <ehird> well, not negative
17:43:42 <ehird> and not 0 i don't think
17:43:46 <ehird> but 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,...
17:43:52 <slereah_> I'm not sure if it's TC, or even a good idea.
17:44:11 <slereah_> A language based on animal populations.
17:44:29 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, not sure how to make one, but sounds interesting
17:44:32 <ehird> AnMaster: integers
17:44:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I want a 4i-dimensional language ;P
17:44:54 <slereah_> With predation relations, reproduction rates and the like*
17:45:11 * ais523 is wondering what the original question was
17:45:15 <slereah_> It would be really easy to do Fibonacci!
17:45:26 <slereah_> Dimensions can't be imaginary.
17:45:29 <AnMaster> ais523, "<AnMaster> anyone got an idea for some new language, turing tarpit style, but not just some variation of brainfuck or similar languages * AnMaster wants to code something"
17:45:36 <AnMaster> ais523, that was the original question
17:45:58 <slereah_> There's plenty of theoretical machines that no one touched.
17:46:00 <AnMaster> but queue based language sounds very interesting idea *puts on list*
17:46:21 <ais523> (if I've spelt that correctly)
17:46:30 <ais523> that was a queue-based language
17:46:33 <ehird> A query language (Think SQL, but crazier) that works on stacks
17:46:33 <ais523> not sure whether it was TC
17:46:58 <AnMaster> would it be possible to make a queue based language TC?
17:47:12 <slereah_> I don't see why it wouldn't be possible!
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17:47:58 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'd still like that biblically-themed gimmick language we were tossing about a while back
17:48:53 <oerjan> * AnMaster just got a SQL error on esolang wiki
17:48:53 <ehird> you referenced that
17:49:01 <ehird> everyone gets those
17:49:01 <oerjan> it does that all the time
17:49:10 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: DO UNTO OTHERS
17:49:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I figured commandments would be like functions or assertions
17:49:34 <oklokok> AnMaster: it's possible, because when talking about computability, "queue-based" means absolutely nothing
17:49:43 <oklokok> possible to make a queue-based language tc that is
17:49:46 <slereah_> What would be the data structure?
17:50:31 <ehird> the SQL-stack should be called:
17:50:36 <slereah_> Using bodies as variables, and souls as value? :o
17:50:47 <oklokok> i was thinking about a language based on religions a while ago
17:50:47 <RodgerTheGreat> no reason you couldn't slip in parts of the torah and Koran, but I'm not sure it would be as instantly recognizable to most people
17:51:03 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: i think such a biblical language might be NSFW
17:51:44 <oerjan> the torah _is_ part of the christian bible too. the koran might be a more difficult matter.
17:51:55 <AnMaster> what about a language, where you had to define the source as the result of an equation in RPN, possibly the result should be interpreter in unary? The equation would have to involve complex numbers and a least amount of terms maybe
17:51:56 <slereah_> What, genociding all the variables for having the wrong value?
17:52:11 <ehird> oerjan: but jesus came along and fixed all that; really god was just misunderstood
17:52:16 <ehird> now look away from that evil one and look at this lovely new one
17:52:23 <RodgerTheGreat> AND THE LORD SAID UNTO NOAH, "GATHER YE SIX OF EVERY ENTRY IN THE 'ANIMALS' TABLE THAT ARE CLEAN AND STORE THEM IN THE ARK"
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17:52:47 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: wow, so my StackSQL is now in the biblical language?
17:52:56 <oklokok> AnMaster: i didn't get your idea
17:53:17 <ehird> AND THE LORD SAID UNTO NOA, "TABLE ANIMALS SIX EVERYENTRY CLEAN? IF ARK STORE THEN"
17:53:18 <AnMaster> oklokok, was random, doesn't work well I think
17:53:20 <RodgerTheGreat> AND THE LORD SAID UNTO NOAH, "SMITE NOT THE UNCLEAN ANIMALS FOR THEY ARE SACRED IN THE EYES OF THE LORD"
17:53:38 <ehird> dd if=/dev/god of=/dev/heaven
17:53:44 <ehird> (file not found: /dev/god)
17:53:50 <AnMaster> well I don't know much of the Bible, and even less of it in English so hm
17:54:11 <oklokok> AnMaster: if that's the game we're playing, then i have an idea too: a language where a stack and there's some complex numbers where the stack is defined in terms of arbitrary calculations on the range of its lists and all the multiprocessing
17:54:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd guess the language would probably include many synonyms for builtins and keywords to retain coherence
17:54:40 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, this reminds me of that shakespearlang
17:54:44 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: it would be 40% nop :p
17:54:51 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, that is, same basic idea
17:55:12 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, exactly- that's what makes it a gimmick language rather than high-concept
17:55:24 <Judofyr> what about a language which looks like shell commands?
17:55:34 <AnMaster> Judofyr, err, that's called shell
17:55:56 <AnMaster> Judofyr, ais523, I wrote an modular irc bot in bash btw: http://envbot.org
17:56:07 <Judofyr> yeah, but it shouldn't do what you expect
17:56:22 <AnMaster> Judofyr, oh cat = sudo rm -rf /?
17:56:33 <ehird> AnMaster: and we call know.
17:56:39 <ehird> its a waste of time too
17:56:45 <Judofyr> that wouldn't be a noob-safe language :P
17:56:46 <ehird> it would be cooler in zsh, anyway
17:57:04 <oklokok> the only thing i like more than telling people i know everything that has ever happened here when someone tells me something is to tell people what others already know.
17:57:28 <ehird> anyway, your project seems to be serious
17:57:32 <oklokok> also, english is clearly not suited for that complicated sentences
17:57:32 <ehird> therefore zsh would be the best choice
17:57:43 <AnMaster> ehird, how many servers got zsh on them?
17:57:51 <ais523> AnMaster: sudo rm -rf /? would delete all directories with one-character names in the root directory
17:57:58 <ehird> and if not its in 99% of pkg management systems
17:58:05 <ehird> zsh is the second-most popular shell from bash i'd say
17:58:08 <AnMaster> ais523, the question mark was not part of the question, it was a question mark
17:58:14 <ehird> and its programming language is highly superior
17:58:14 <AnMaster> ehird, while bash isn't portable, it is more portable than zsh normally
17:58:16 <ehird> it is very advanced
17:58:23 <ehird> AnMaster: still. zsh is a better choice
17:58:28 <ais523> ehird: maybe ash is the most popular, because that's used in most embedded systems
17:58:37 <ehird> ais523: i don't think AnMaster is targeting those
17:58:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm targeting standard shell servers, like those you can get for $5 or whatever it is
17:59:04 <ehird> AnMaster: those have zsh
17:59:28 <AnMaster> ehird, not last I checked on the one I got an account on, runs freebsd 6.2
17:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: then its a rarity
18:00:06 <AnMaster> anyway that wasn't the point of this discussion, feel free to fork, it's open source ;P
18:00:28 <ehird> it wouldnt be a fork
18:01:22 <AnMaster> now, why not make it work under either then (painful, as the common subset of extended functionality compared to POSIX isn't that large iirc)
18:02:07 <ais523> why not make it work under POSIX sh?
18:02:34 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting idea, but would be painful
18:04:20 <AnMaster> hm, if that "if an infinite number of monkies tyoe on an infinite number of typewriters for infinitly long we would get all the great works of Shakespear sooner or later is true", then that is true for any data
18:04:47 <AnMaster> meaning, it would sooner or later generate a brainfuck interpreter heh
18:04:51 <slereah_> Millions of monkeys on millions of typewriters!
18:04:55 <ehird> why is that suprising?
18:05:07 <ehird> it's such an obvious statement that only an idiot would argue against it
18:05:10 <AnMaster> ehird, but what if you could exploit it
18:05:20 <ehird> if you have a perfect random number generator on (0,1) [i.e. for bits]
18:05:23 <ehird> and run it infinitely
18:05:29 <ehird> of course it will generate everything
18:06:00 <slereah_> But then again, the only way to have a good program out of it would be to use a bigass if
18:06:07 <oerjan> the problem is that _finding_ something in the monkey output is even harder than writing it yourself in the first place
18:06:07 <slereah_> And it would be shorter to just use the if
18:06:09 <oklokok> please show me some statistics to support this.
18:06:14 <AnMaster> how likley is it that cat /dev/urandom will generate hamlet in ASCII, starting within 1 MB from stream start with fewer than three errors in it?
18:06:43 <ehird> oklokok: support one
18:06:46 <ehird> oklokok: support what
18:06:52 <ehird> AnMaster: /dev/urandom is not random
18:06:56 <slereah_> AnMaster: A string of length n is always 1/256^n
18:06:57 <oerjan> for example, there will be _many_ more instances of "To be or not to flaggle gnart gop" than of the entire Hamlet
18:07:08 <oklokok> AnMaster: that's trivial to calculate
18:07:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, true, /dev/random with a hardware based number generator
18:07:23 <ehird> oerjan: tell oklokok he is silly
18:07:30 <slereah_> Although it would be better to use the printable character set.
18:07:36 <ehird> of course if you have a truly random bit generator run through every possible combination infinitely that contains everything
18:07:45 <oklokok> oerjan: tell ehird i was joking
18:07:50 <ehird> Then a rng on (0,255)
18:08:09 <oerjan> oklokok: you are silly
18:08:09 <RodgerTheGreat> I like random number generators built from a radioactive sample and a detector array, sealed in a lead-lined box
18:08:15 <oerjan> ehird: oklokok was joking
18:08:23 <oklokok> perhaps the penis in my name makes me appear even stupider than i actually am
18:08:33 <oklokok> hmph, i already have oklopol in use
18:08:44 <ehird> let msg = "oerjan: tell oklokok to tell " ++ msg in msg
18:09:18 <oerjan> oklokok: tell let msg = "oerjan: tell oklokok to tell " ++ msg in msg
18:10:16 <oklokok> does the irp spec say it has lazy evaluation? i think that would be kinda funny.
18:10:18 <ehird> oerjan: that's wrong
18:10:25 <ehird> reduction example:
18:10:26 <ehird> let msg = "oerjan: tell oklokok to tell " ++ msg in msg
18:10:39 <ehird> oerjan: tell oklokok to tell oerjan: tell oklokok to tell oerjan: ...
18:10:46 <slereah_> oklokok: You write "Please do this function with x evaluation"
18:11:03 <ehird> Please evaluate the list in range 1,inf, strictly.
18:11:46 <oklokok> ehird: you too must be happy to know i actually begun writing an oklotalk interp
18:12:14 <ehird> give me a REPL, nao
18:12:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you know what oklotalk is?
18:12:22 <ehird> He won't be done for years!
18:12:28 <ehird> It's the biggest, most ambigious language that exists
18:12:38 <oerjan> let msg = "tell oerjan: tell oklokok to " ++ msg in "oklopol: " ++ msg
18:12:39 <oklokok> it does not have a parser yet, but it already evaluates *some* of the basic things
18:12:42 <slereah_> I know he's been talking about it for months, but I still don't know what it is!
18:13:00 <oklokok> the problem is oklotalk's pattern matching and it's parsing, which are the most complicated things, aren't even started yet
18:13:09 <AnMaster> oklokok, no esolang entry on it?
18:13:40 <AnMaster> slereah_, some extreme syntax thing
18:13:44 <oklokok> but i'll put it there, even though it's not entirely made for esopurposes
18:14:06 <ehird> slereah_: You don't want to know
18:14:09 <ehird> oklokok: Show him quicksort!
18:14:17 <oklokok> ehird: you probably guessed, but i'm only implementing a subset of it.
18:14:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot the magic word (not, xyzzy!)
18:14:26 <slereah_> But I don't know what they mean
18:14:28 <ehird> Show him quicksoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooort
18:15:14 <slereah_> Bible Code does not approve of evil codes
18:16:58 <oklokok> because if the lists contain lists, the addition will not put ._ automatically in a list
18:17:01 <ehird> Judofyr: Oklotalk rocks
18:17:19 <AnMaster> oklokok, really post a syntax desc
18:17:41 <ehird> AnMaster: it is not parsable by traditional parsers
18:17:48 <slereah_> Without the syntax, it's hard to get a sense of the evilness
18:17:51 <ehird> iirc it's even more malleble than perl
18:17:54 <oklokok> {L->{.L>}/:_+[._]+{.L<}/:_} <<< made portable + corrected an error
18:18:06 <ehird> AnMaster: its too ambigious+context sensitive+runtime-changable
18:18:14 <ais523> [(Quicksort in Overload)]
18:18:14 <ais523> (The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.)
18:18:14 <ais523> (~:L{gg(("<"")S:S'""Sn1~:A~D(:@~:@-@~zaa~g(A1a&)f)e@(:A@za*~D)e'*t.DDD?:^~'*t.DDD?:^@~a&*(">"")S:S'""Sn)f~!):^nSn
18:18:32 <ais523> somewhat longer than the oklotalk version
18:18:43 <ais523> that's the language that was eventually tarpitised into Overload
18:18:56 <AnMaster> ais523, can't find overload on esolang?
18:18:58 <oklokok> {L->'({.L>}/:_)+._+'${.L<}/:_} <<< added some more shit, but now i'm fairly sure it works :D
18:19:05 <ais523> but I keep getting stuck halfway through when trying to write the spec
18:19:13 <oklokok> it can be done shorter, i'm just a bit panicky doing this live :P
18:19:16 <ais523> AnMaster: that's because I've never actually managed to write the spec
18:19:34 <ais523> I can give you a buggy interpreter in C++ that you can reverse-engineer if you want to mess around with it, though
18:19:39 * slereah_ should write the Andrei Machine 9000's specs
18:19:46 <ais523> (that's only half-finished and abandoned because it became unmaintainable)
18:19:51 <AnMaster> there are binary and trinary esolangs right? so what about other n-nary
18:19:59 <ehird> ais523: you got a mix up :P
18:20:06 <ehird> who wants to write a turkey bomb impl :3
18:20:08 <ais523> TriINTERCAL works in bases 3-7
18:20:18 <AnMaster> ehird, not possible I think after looking at it
18:20:25 <AnMaster> slereah_, whoo, that would be fun
18:20:45 <oklokok> anyway, {.L>}/:_ is assumed to mean {.L>_}/:_ because it ends in an oper, which means: collect for tail of argument all elements that are greater than the head of the list
18:21:04 <ehird> AnMaster: um it is
18:21:14 <ehird> ais523 did a little bit writing a TURKEY BOMB interp beforehand
18:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is? turky bomb didn't specify most things about implementation it seemd?
18:21:36 <ehird> I vote that the interpreter should be called CHICKEN EXPLOSIVE
18:21:39 <ais523> AnMaster: what in particular seems impossible about it?
18:21:46 <ehird> AnMaster: half a bit is easy
18:21:49 <ehird> just use crazy padding
18:21:57 <oklokok> (i want to remind everyone once again oklotalk is *not* my official terse language! cise is :))
18:22:24 <ais523> Overload was meant to be mine, but that would require implementing a standard library
18:22:29 <ais523> (which would contain a sort function)
18:22:35 <AnMaster> ehird, the size of some objects too,
18:22:51 <oklokok> AnMaster: some languages have extendable syntax, you can use any base
18:22:54 <ais523> incidentally, the quicksort I pasted above also shows debug output
18:23:11 <AnMaster> oklokok, what about non-unsigned integers?
18:23:24 <oklokok> i should put some examples somewhere
18:23:25 <AnMaster> that is, something that isn't an unsigned integer
18:23:39 <slereah_> oklokok: Cise does not use the wiki, it be not on it :o
18:23:45 <oklokok> do you understand "extendable syntax"?
18:23:48 <ehird> ais523: OMG, hexl-mode in emacs lets you use your major mode. I just used nxml-mode with hexl-mode
18:23:59 <AnMaster> ehird, another thing: PUDDING size: Infinite. impossible to *implement*
18:24:05 <ehird> AnMaster: you mean Amiced?
18:24:13 <ehird> if so - just store it as a NEGATIVE_AMICED
18:24:25 <ais523> and store it in any PUDDINGs that don't contain the AMICED in question
18:24:26 <ehird> also, PUDDING could be done quite trivially in haskell. in C, you just make it the minimum to store its fields, and fake it
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18:25:50 <oerjan> ehird: the ide will be PARROT NUKE
18:26:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: OMG, hexl-mode in emacs lets you use your major mode. I just used nxml-mode with hexl-mode <ehird> that's zen <-- NICE!
18:26:34 <ehird> breaks if you add more text though i think
18:26:59 <ais523> can you syntax-highlight the hex?
18:26:59 <ehird> but nxml-mode thinks the hex is part of the file
18:27:01 <ehird> so messes up a bit
18:27:01 <oklokok> damn, cannot get Cise upped
18:27:08 <ehird> ais523: no but the right-hand doc is
18:27:16 <ehird> nxml-mode is horrid anway, its evil tricksy :)
18:27:30 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p411124234.txt <<< my official terse language.
18:27:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't work for hexl + shell mode here
18:27:45 <ehird> ais523: opinions on the name CHICKEN EXPLOSIVE? ;)
18:27:48 <ehird> AnMaster: shell-mode is too hacky
18:27:55 <ehird> M-x shell<RET>M-x hexl-mode
18:28:09 <AnMaster> ehird, no I mean shell script mode
18:28:14 <ais523> ehird: it doesn't trip off the tongue like TURKEY BOMB does
18:28:34 <ehird> you're right, AnMaster
18:29:31 <AnMaster> ehird, also doesn't work for lisp mode (as in *scratch* buffer
18:29:51 <oklokok> cise is only my current terse language though, i don't have such an intuitive way to see what's useful for the general graph, so cise pretty much just makes list operations terse
18:29:55 <ehird> iirc it's a minor mode
18:30:05 <oklokok> tried implementing a red-black tree on it... that was hell :D
18:30:11 <ehird> oklokok: cise spec?
18:30:34 <oklokok> you don't wanna parse cise...
18:30:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't even have nxml-mode here?
18:31:15 <oklokok> you have to parse at runtime in the general case, i think
18:31:16 <ehird> install it, AnMaster...
18:31:23 <ehird> it contains an xml parser written in elisp
18:31:24 <ehird> that's how it works
18:31:27 <ehird> and it validates on-the-fly
18:31:31 <ehird> and highlights errors exactly
18:31:33 <oklokok> because correct parsing relies on type checking
18:31:42 <oklokok> anyway, i'll go buy me some keb
18:32:09 <oklokok> i know you can, the real reason is i don't want you to implement my languages before me :D
18:32:45 <ehird> it is amazing for editing xml
18:32:48 <oklokok> the languages i'm in any way proud of, that is, you can implement yabc if you want... :P
18:32:48 <AnMaster> ehird, mixing the modes I mean
18:32:51 <ehird> but its inner workings, whaow :)
18:33:16 <ehird> AnMaster: that ' Invalid' thing is actually hacked in by nxml-mode
18:33:45 <AnMaster> ehird, also why the brainfuck is emacs-32 ignoring my .emacs file, at least this line: "(setq inhibit-startup-message t)"
18:34:08 <ehird> (setq inhibit-splash-screen t)
18:34:49 <ais523> I have emacs aliased in my bashrc to not show the splash screen
18:35:17 <ais523> alias emacs='emacs --no-splash'
18:36:01 <AnMaster> ais523, err, not really, because I use emacs as emacs-22, and emacs-23 as "whatever snapshot I currently use of that pre-release"
18:36:21 <ehird> oklokok: aww come on, i want to try cice
18:36:24 <ehird> so i can fail terribly
18:41:26 <ehird> uhh what was i going to say
18:42:01 <ais523> how am I meant to know?
18:42:21 <ehird> ais523: how's BURKEY TOMB for a name? :P
18:43:13 <ehird> kind of hard to pronounce
18:44:07 <ais523> and 'burkey' is easy to pronounce
18:44:44 <ehird> doesn't roll off the tounge, though
18:46:31 <ehird> ais523: An Implementation Of Turkey Bomb I Mean Jeez sounds good
18:46:55 <ais523> that's even harder to pronounce
18:49:16 <ehird> ais523: How about Tuberculosis
18:49:26 <oklokok> ehird: the failing terribly sounds like such an egoboost i might just make you a spec ;)
18:49:29 <AnMaster> ehird, err "Tuberculosis" is hard
18:49:46 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't get the joke
18:51:25 * slereah_ wrote a cat for the Andrei Machine :D
18:52:03 <slereah_> It's a Kolmogorov machine, but with an attempt at I/O
18:52:17 <slereah_> I'm not too sure it can do I/O at arbitrary points, but well.
18:52:57 <AnMaster> and what is a "Kolmogorov machine"?
18:53:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you are unable to google.
18:53:11 <ehird> AnMaster: this is serious. we must spoon-feed you information.
18:53:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried, found wikipedia page on person
18:53:30 <ehird> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_machine
18:53:41 <AnMaster> ehird, not in Swedish google :(
18:53:59 <ehird> don't use swedish google then
18:54:24 <slereah_> The cat would be 0-5,-;0,->0-5,-;0-2,->0-5,-;0-2-6-7-*2,->0-*2,-
18:54:57 <ehird> AnMaster: there's a button to go to US
18:55:08 <slereah_> Although 0,->0-5,- isn't really necessary, its only for the case where you input /000
18:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yep, and that redirects me back again straight away
18:55:28 <slereah_> Oh wait, forgot to add the actual output of the value
18:55:33 <ehird> AnMaster: google.com/ncr
18:55:45 <ehird> oklokok: ciseeeeeee :-D
18:56:12 <oklokok> if i do something coding-related, it'll prolly be about oklotalk
18:56:55 <ehird> oklokok: i just want the spec so i can badly fail to implement it
18:57:33 <ehird> just write a short one :p
18:57:36 <oklokok> i just have a list of currently known functions
18:58:04 <ais523> ehird: maybe I'll send you the Overload interp so far (the first one in C++ that's more advanced), so you can try to write your own saner version
18:58:37 <ehird> Judofyr: programming sofa skull?
18:58:50 <Judofyr> ehird: no, with Ruby on Rails
18:58:52 <oklokok> ehird's such and implementation whore!
18:59:00 <ehird> Judofyr: eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek
18:59:10 <Judofyr> the problem is that I have to go to school :(
18:59:12 <slereah_> 0-5-4,-;0-4,->0-5-4;0-*2|*2-4,->0-*2|*2,-;0-2-6-7-2-4,->0-5-4,-;0,->0-5,-;0-2,->0-5,-;0-2-6-7-*2,->0-*2,-
18:59:32 * Judofyr still has 3 years left with school :(
18:59:47 <ehird> Remind me that eso-std.org needs a qdb
19:00:17 <Judofyr> oklokok: hm... It's a little diffenrent here in Norway, so I don't know...
19:00:24 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: no you didn't :o
19:00:27 <slereah_> Graphs in ASCII are pretty uninspiring.
19:00:48 <oklokok> slereah_: no if they're made in graphica
19:00:49 <ais523> ehird (and anyone else interested): http://pastebin.ca/928017
19:01:04 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: no university for you?
19:01:52 <slereah_> oklokok: There seem to be plenty of programs with that name
19:03:06 <AnMaster> I'm pondering writing a befunge interpreter in bash, however, I'm not clear on one point, while the size of the playfield isn't limited in Befunge-98, is it "not limited in one dimension, but still limited in the other" or "totally unlimited"?
19:03:24 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:03:30 <ehird> ais523: you know i would prefer a spec
19:03:38 -!- oklokok has joined.
19:03:40 <ehird> AnMaster: It's Funge-98
19:03:40 * ais523 has two partially-complete specs
19:03:51 <ehird> And don't bother; there are about 20 implementations, only one passes the test suite
19:03:54 <ehird> and it was written over a yaer
19:04:02 <oklokok> can someone give me a link to the logs
19:04:03 <ehird> it is an extremely complex langugae
19:04:12 <oklokok> ...or just paste me the few lin
19:04:20 <ais523> oklokok: they're linked from the community portal on the wiki
19:04:36 <oklokok> i'm too lazy for something like that
19:04:38 <AnMaster> ehird, then the page http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge is wrong
19:04:45 <AnMaster> ehird, it states "Befunge-98 removes the fixed-size restriction on the playfield, and thus should be Turing-complete."
19:05:05 <ehird> AnMaster: uhhh, it is TC
19:05:15 <ehird> It is extremely difficult
19:05:27 <ehird> Since, you know, since it was released, *only one person has correctly implemented it*
19:05:41 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge#Computational_class
19:05:42 <ais523> ehird: http://pastebin.ca/928021 is the reasonably-full but vague and confusing spec
19:05:42 <ehird> So it took about a decade to be implemented correctly.
19:05:44 <slereah_> But maybe AnMaster is a master programmer!
19:05:59 <ehird> CCBI/Mycology's site seems to be down
19:06:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Even the *person who wrote most of the befunge98 spec didn't get it right*
19:06:11 <oklokok> does befunge have bignums?
19:06:32 <slereah_> Writing interpreters for 2D languages does not seem to qualify as fun.
19:06:43 <ehird> especially befunge98
19:06:48 <ehird> well, why am i saying that
19:06:52 <ehird> AnMaster: you hear that?
19:06:55 <ehird> you need to implement N dimensions
19:07:01 <ais523> ehird: http://pastebin.ca/928023 is the much clearer spec I got less than halfway through
19:07:04 <ehird> and, again, only one person has got Funge98 right, ever.
19:07:11 <ehird> And it took them a year, using D and the rich Tango library.
19:07:20 <ehird> Most of the people here, in Bash? Very little chance.
19:07:29 <AnMaster> well I won't do that then, however the original befunge maybe
19:07:31 <ais523> ehird: that person did manage to correct someone else's interp to get a lot more right
19:07:43 <ais523> and now there's a testsuite, you can continually keep on fixing your first error
19:07:45 <ehird> befunge-93 is trivial yeah
19:07:54 <ehird> i wouldnt attempt it in bash
19:08:17 <ais523> ehird: you have to go off and write an Overload interp now, now I've given you a reference interp and two specs
19:08:21 <oklokok> what's hard to implement about funge-98?
19:08:29 <ehird> ais523: yes yes ;)
19:08:32 <ais523> (not that any of them is perfect for understanding the language with)
19:08:33 <oklokok> is it just the n-dimensionality?
19:08:35 <ehird> oklokok: its very complex
19:08:43 <ehird> the most complex esolang existing for sure
19:08:51 <AnMaster> ok what about befunge-98--? ;D
19:09:52 <ais523> ehird: maybe recent INTERCAL dialects beat it for complexity
19:10:13 <AnMaster> with these restrictions I could do it in bash: 1) playfield resricted to two dimensions 2) restricted in width to some fixed amount 3) height not restricted
19:10:33 <AnMaster> then I could use some cleaver tricks with bash's one dimensional arrays
19:10:50 <ehird> the language itself is just too comple
19:10:53 <ehird> there is no way you could do it
19:10:55 <ais523> ehird: stop being such a pessimist
19:11:01 <AnMaster> ehird, so not even same instruction set
19:11:08 <ais523> there isn't anything all that difficult about it, it's just so extensive that it's easy to make a mistake
19:11:30 <AnMaster> I won't aim at making a fast implementation
19:11:39 <ehird> AnMaster: http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
19:11:45 <ehird> One look at that spec should send you running
19:13:06 <ehird> AnMaster: hehe, did that spec scare you?
19:13:28 <slereah_> What's the syntax to make a footnote on Esolang?
19:13:29 <AnMaster> would still be turing complete, by specifying that "height of play field is not limited"
19:13:41 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway section "Wrapping" did scare me
19:13:44 <ais523> slereah_: there isn't one
19:13:48 <ais523> because Cite isn't installed
19:14:00 <ais523> just use <sup> tags to put an asterisk or something similar
19:14:05 <ais523> and use it as a footnote marker
19:14:27 <ais523> as in <sup>this is in superscript</sup>
19:15:17 <ehird> ais523: opinions on Tuberculosis as a TB interp name?
19:15:58 <ais523> ehird: if you can somehow get in the tuber=potato thing, then I like it
19:16:51 <ehird> ais523: was that sentence even english?
19:17:09 <ais523> 'tuber=potato' maybe should have been in quotes
19:17:18 <ehird> what 'tuber=potato' thing
19:17:21 <ehird> (sorry, i'm dumb today)
19:17:50 <ais523> a potato is a sort of tuber
19:18:01 <oklokok> playfield can be limited too, and still it can be tc
19:18:05 <ais523> and the letters TUBER occur consecutively in Tuberculosis
19:18:12 <ais523> and potatos seem linked to TURKEY BOMB in some way
19:18:25 <oklokok> just have bignums, and you don't even need an infinite stack
19:18:32 <ais523> ehird: stop making random channels and forcing other people to join you there!
19:18:58 <ais523> besides, you aren't there
19:19:11 <ais523> either that, or it's a secret channel
19:19:23 <ehird> oklokok just joined
19:19:24 <ais523> so I can't tell if you're in it without joining it myself
19:20:31 <oklokok> "it all starts when a nulevule comes out of its nest"
19:20:32 <ehird> 3 people are in already
19:21:54 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
19:26:06 -!- Corun has joined.
19:29:11 <slereah_> Where can I find this Graphica?
19:29:30 <oerjan> must be the alzheimer again
19:29:41 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: i'm fairly sure i was being clear
19:29:47 <oklokok> slereah_: i have a spec somewhere
19:29:49 <oerjan> that's why he had to quit school, you see
19:29:57 <oklokok> wait a year or something, i'll get it
19:30:03 <slereah_> What, bsmntbombdood got pregnant?
19:30:11 <slereah_> And you had to drop out of high school?
19:30:31 <slereah_> Got any idea to draw some graphs?
19:30:48 <slereah_> I don't look forward to do them in gimp
19:30:53 * oerjan makes a note not to expect too much of slereah_'s medical knowledge
19:30:58 <ais523> slereah_: you could use GammaPlex if you wanted something esoteric
19:31:12 <ais523> oerjan: do you actually know for certain what gender bsmntbombdood is?
19:31:34 <oerjan> ais523: hm interesting question
19:31:59 <oerjan> there have been pictures of him
19:32:20 <oerjan> but certain, of course not
19:32:40 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt <<< and n-dimensional binary hypercube in case you missed it, slereah_
19:32:50 <oklokok> i cannot find the spec right now
19:33:00 <RodgerTheGreat> or depending on what you need to graph, I might be able to whip up some postscript, given time
19:33:38 <oklokok> i don't think R is for this kind of graphs
19:33:42 <slereah_> RodgerTheGreat: I really don't want to google R.
19:33:46 <oklokok> says something about statistics in there
19:34:02 <RodgerTheGreat> wait, do you mean like graph theory graphs, or statistics graphs?
19:34:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I recall reading about a python plugin for managing those though
19:34:32 <slereah_> I tried to use Gato, but I can't install it.
19:34:41 <slereah_> I miss some Python modules apparently
19:34:45 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: yeah, my graphica interp! :D
19:35:11 <oklokok> it doesn't manage 'em, just makes
19:37:41 <oklokok> isn't gato just for drawing graphs?
19:38:04 <slereah_> Though it would be a good start. I do need some pix to illustrate the article
19:38:27 <oklokok> well, for starters, why the hell would anyone make a language spesifically for the purpose of creating graphs
19:38:43 <oklokok> unless of course as a part of a graph drawing program or something
19:38:53 <ais523> oklokok: why the hell would anyone make an esolang anyway?
19:39:21 <ehird> Corun: Do you have that on highlight?
19:39:22 <oklokok> all i'm saying there's prolly no big, real, language for that.
19:39:37 <oklokok> real being something not made by me
19:40:01 <slereah_> I guess I can just whip up something with Python.
19:40:18 <RodgerTheGreat> Corun: you are now in charge of developing a "sexy" programming language. Strike fear into us all.
19:41:19 <ehird> that won't even COMPILE
19:41:23 <ehird> you mean: int main(void)
19:41:40 <ais523> ehird: void main() compiles but is UB
19:41:42 <RodgerTheGreat> heaven forbid we use simplified illustrations to present a joke
19:41:43 <slereah_> As far as I know, main() compiles on some compilers
19:41:48 <ais523> as in, you're not supposed to do it
19:42:05 <ais523> and main(){} is correct C89 (but not correct C99)
19:42:05 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: are you saying one cannot be pedantic on #esoteric?
19:42:29 <ehird> IS NOT LEGAL in a prototype
19:42:32 <ehird> it must be func(void)
19:42:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm simply voicing my irritation about it, as usual. I realize it's inevitable, oklokok
19:42:41 <ais523> yes, but you can use functions without prototypes
19:42:41 <ehird> void main() will NOT compile
19:42:49 <ais523> it will if you put braces after it
19:42:52 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: do realize i just said that because you said that some time ago.
19:43:02 <ais523> because that's a non-prototype declaration of "function taking unspecified args, returning void"
19:43:22 <oklokok> i think everyone should both be pedantic and be irritated about it
19:43:47 <ais523> but int is the default in C89, so you can leave off the int at the start
19:43:50 <RodgerTheGreat> although I am aware of making that statement, I believe I was being sarcastic. Not that it matters.
19:43:56 <ais523> (C99 doesn't have defaults, you have to state the data type)
19:44:02 <oerjan> oklokok: i hate it when you say that. btw CAPITALIZE YOUR SENTENCES
19:44:38 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: does not matter, no, but were you being sarcastic now or back then?
19:45:43 <oerjan> he wioll haven been sarcastic previously afterward
19:46:30 <oklokok> heh, anyway, i don't think you were being sarcastic back then, because you were accused of being pedantic, and that was your response... i just followed the pattern.
19:47:32 <oerjan> there is no pattern. our words make sense purely by trogg.
19:48:34 <ais523> oerjan: is that a HHGTTG verb?
19:48:42 <oklokok> what's a trogg, besides a person who tries to be a wog?
19:49:47 <oerjan> oklokok: it's what i typed when trying to type a random unpronouncable word. obviously i failed.
19:49:59 <oerjan> google gives some WoW link
19:50:49 <oklokok> every word with less than 10 characters has a sexual/drug-related meaning in urbandictionary.
19:52:35 <oerjan> hah, i was _not_ fooled into googling that. nope, never.
19:52:50 <slereah_> That's like 141167095653376 words :o
19:53:07 <oklokok> slereah_: that's modern english for ya
19:53:54 <oklokok> something like urbandictionary, but meanings are generated
19:54:25 <oerjan> jello looks _so_ like a random letter combination
19:54:31 <ehird> oklokok: i can trivially write that
19:54:37 <ehird> markov chain + urbandict DB dump = fun and laughter
19:54:56 <oklokok> well, that's an easy but sucky way to do it
19:55:08 <oklokok> you can probably make it correct english.
19:55:29 <ehird> most of urbandictionary is not correct english
19:56:23 <oklokok> okay, you can make everything actually have a meaning.
19:58:08 <oerjan> Ditto: A popular lottery in New Zealand
20:00:20 * ais523 checks Slashdot to confirm
20:03:14 <oklokok> ehird: because you're probably the second most interested in my oklotalk interp in the world: it currently does both static and dynamic scoping perfectly, i think, ran ``s``s`ks``s`kk``skk`k``skk on it
20:03:45 <oklokok> the dynamic scoping should work too, sk ofc doesn't tell anything about that.
20:03:52 <oklokok> you do not want to see it.
20:04:01 <slereah_> Hm. I wonder if it would be easy to run some combinators in the Andrei Machines.
20:04:35 <oklokok> for one, the interp is so slow you would cry.
20:05:17 <oklokok> not that it actually matters, but i'll only show it in priv, and don't want you to spread it.
20:06:49 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
20:11:28 -!- olsner has joined.
20:12:43 <slereah_> Does GIMP have a tool for basic shapes, or should I look for another program?
20:46:13 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
21:07:31 <oerjan> gnidllgnafnoopeepeepsnapfiongflipspIONG
21:07:56 <ehird> I was just wondering if you had any ideas how to represent a BI_IT and similar
21:08:14 <ehird> you can pad them to an integral number of bits but you'll have trouble finding reasonable data to put in them anyway
21:08:16 <oerjan> since i don't know what it _is_...
21:08:26 <ais523> half of a trit + two-thirds of a bit
21:08:39 <ais523> you can combine 6 of them to get a data type consisting of 4 bits and 3 trits
21:08:47 <ehird> oerjan: read TURKEY BOMB spec
21:09:27 <oerjan> well, a trit = ln 3 / ln 2 bits
21:09:33 <ehird> convenient link: http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html
21:11:14 <ais523> strange, I make it 1.5849625007211563 bits
21:11:15 <oerjan> so in one you can save a bit + a little more
21:11:28 <oerjan> (log 3/log 2)/2 + 2/3 ?
21:11:38 <ais523> oh, I just calculated log 3 / log 2
21:11:54 <ais523> agree with you on the size of a BI_IT
21:12:02 <ais523> the next two decimal places are 4 and 8, apparently
21:12:31 <ais523> hmm... is it usual for people to use ghci for quick calculations?
21:12:44 <oerjan> well i just used hugs :)
21:12:44 <ehird> haskell isn't known for being good at, well, arithmetic
21:13:01 <ehird> (I think this should be resolved with matlab. ;P)
21:13:05 <ais523> haskell is good at arithmetic
21:13:15 <ais523> it does bignums automatically
21:13:17 <oerjan> as long as you don't want weird functions
21:13:27 <ehird> bignums automatically is an idea from the 50s
21:13:38 <ais523> yes, but how many calculators actually do it?
21:14:06 <ais523> Windows Calculator, for instance
21:14:13 <ais523> or pretty much any handheld electronic calculator
21:14:40 <ehird> um, i meant ones on a compooter
21:15:04 <ais523> dc seems to do bignums, though
21:15:40 <ais523> Google calculator doesn't, instead rounding large numbers to floating-point
21:15:56 <oklopol> every language does bignums
21:16:15 <ehird> * (+ (/ (/ (log 3) (log 2)) 2) 2/3)
21:16:15 <ehird> in conclusion, oerjan is right
21:16:18 <ehird> what SBCL says goes :-P
21:16:18 <ais523> not all of them do by default, or easily
21:16:21 <oklopol> the problem is arbitrary precision reals
21:16:37 <ais523> from the syntax I guess it's a Lisp variant
21:16:37 <ehird> ais523: Steel Bank Common Lisp
21:16:48 <oklopol> ais523: not all, but most good ones.
21:16:49 <ehird> the best open-source Common Lisp implementation, IMO :)
21:17:09 <oklopol> if a language does not do them, it either sucks, or is some low-level wongomadol
21:17:20 <ehird> SBCL descended from CMUCL
21:17:28 <ehird> 'The name "Steel Bank Common Lisp" is a pun on Carnegie Mellon University Common Lisp from which SBCL forked: Andrew Carnegie made his fortune in the steel industry and Andrew Mellon was a successful banker.'
21:17:54 <oerjan> wongomadol: The capital of Southern Zambesi
21:18:09 <oklopol> oerjan: you sure know a lot :o
21:18:17 <oklopol> what would half a bit of information be?
21:18:39 <ehird> i can't enter those
21:18:46 <oklopol> would there be a possibility of the info being wrong or what...
21:18:53 <oklopol> i can't quite get on top of it
21:19:00 <ehird> Half a bit of info: ( to `
21:19:18 <ehird> 1 ` (imagine the ` is backwards)
21:19:29 <oerjan> half a bit of information is the amount of information in knowing that an event of probability 1/sqrt 2 occured.
21:20:06 <ehird> WHOLE BIT --- HALF BIT
21:20:14 <ehird> It's half of the digit.
21:20:35 <oklopol> sorry, was assuming it was an unlambda reference
21:21:28 <ehird> ais523: underlambda. do the tiers have a spec yet?
21:21:54 <oklopol> hmm, i need to think about this half-a-bit crap, you might be able to get something interesting out of it
21:22:05 <oklopol> turkey bomb has something like that?
21:22:36 <ehird> ais523: ESOification? :D
21:22:37 <ais523> although I'm planning to move S from 1 to 2a because it fits more logically there
21:22:55 <ais523> ehird: yes, eventually
21:22:56 <ais523> let me work out the size of a BI_IT using flonck first
21:23:03 <ehird> ais523: Can I make overlambda? :P
21:23:05 <ais523> I've got the output, now just need to translate it into decimal :)
21:23:22 <ehird> damn, we need Endeavour in here
21:23:25 <ehird> oh wait i didn't write it yet
21:24:47 <ais523> hmm... it gave me an output of 0.666666, which is obviously wrong
21:25:08 <ais523> ehird: an RPN floating-point calculator written in INTERCAL-72
21:25:56 <ehird> ais523: what would overlambda be, by the way? :P
21:26:20 <ehird> oklopol: Cise spec? :D
21:26:22 <ehird> I want to fail terribly!
21:27:14 <oklopol> tomorrow isn't until like 30 minutes
21:29:46 <ais523> hmm... there seems to be something wrong with flonck's implementation of ln
21:30:28 <ais523> ah, I was writing ln 20 / ln 30 by mistake
21:30:30 <ehird> oklopol: aww come on :(
21:30:33 <ais523> which is quite different
21:33:03 <ais523> I now get an answer of 7.35053
21:33:15 <ais523> hmm... flonck is really hard to use
21:33:26 <ais523> and floating-point output in Roman numerals is not very understandable either
21:34:00 <ais523> (6 decimal digits mantissa, one bit sign, and 1 base-5 and 1 base-10 digit for exponent)
21:34:02 <ehird> ais523: i need to write my calculator sometime
21:34:12 <ehird> it would be like a programming language but specialized for quick calculator stuff.
21:34:13 <ais523> (but written in Roman numerals)
21:34:20 <ehird> it would have infinite-precision floating-point numbers, too
21:34:39 <ehird> oh, and it would allow stuff like the google calc
21:34:44 <ehird> pseudo-english input
21:34:48 <ehird> e.g. '2*3 in binary'
21:35:16 <ais523> sorry, I thought I was in #irp for a moment
21:35:21 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?q=number+of+horns+on+a+unicorn+acre+in+tea+spoons+per+light+year
21:35:53 <ais523> they've been adding more silly units into it again, I see
21:36:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it was on reddit a while back
21:36:23 <ehird> ais523: it makes sense, actually
21:36:32 <ehird> 'number of horns on a unicorn' is admittedly a joke unit
21:36:46 <ehird> 'X per Y' will be handled automatically
21:36:50 <ehird> teaspoons will be in there for cooking
21:36:55 <ehird> light year for obvious reasons
21:37:00 <ais523> I was referring to the unicorn unit
21:37:05 <ehird> so, the only joke unit involved is 'number of horns on a unicorn'
21:38:12 <ais523> I wonder if they'd heard of the fortnight/furlong/firkin system of measurement?
21:39:04 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&hl=en&safe=off&q=1+furlong%2Ffortnight&btnG=Search
21:39:23 <ais523> hmm... why do you have safe=off in that URL?
21:39:50 <ehird> ais523: his prefs include it?
21:40:02 <ais523> ehird: if they do, that's somewhat revealing
21:40:13 <ais523> 'dunno' is probably the best response
21:40:23 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?q=number+of+horns+on+a+unicorn+baker%27s+dozens+answer+to+life%2C+the+universe%2C+and+everything+baker%27s+dozen+acres+in+tea+spoons+baker%27s+dozen+per+light+year
21:40:33 <ehird> ais523: safesearch is a pretty bad idea no matter what..
21:40:41 <ehird> esp. since it could filter out legit results
21:41:05 <ehird> also, i have no idea what anyone could do with the 'revealing' info that someone has turned off safesearch.
21:41:08 <ehird> perhaps blackmail them.
21:43:38 <ais523> this gets me wondering whether Google have been persuaded to write an antifilter
21:43:50 <ais523> which only returns results that safesearch would have filtered out
21:43:56 <ais523> some people might be interested in that too...
21:44:48 <ehird> ais523: a funny common lisp thing --
21:44:54 <ehird> the special form THE
21:45:03 <ehird> its a type hint to the compiler
21:45:13 <ehird> i.e. 'this will always be a TYPE, stop yer checks'
21:45:16 <ehird> why is it amusing?
21:45:26 <ehird> (the list '(1 2 3))
21:45:44 <ais523> can that be implemented with (macro)?
21:46:26 <ehird> ais523: of course not.
21:46:32 <ehird> it's an internal compiler thing
21:46:37 <ehird> it doesn't have to listen to it
21:46:45 <ehird> (the fixnum 928374892347982347923847239847238947234234)
21:46:50 <ehird> will, in most compilers, be ... not that
21:46:58 <ehird> it's best used in cases like
21:47:01 <ehird> (the fixnum (+ a b))
21:47:07 <ais523> (I'm still trying to argue my point about (macro) not fitting well in Lisp)
21:47:26 <ehird> ais523: if the compiler provides enough hooks you could define it with defmacro
21:47:53 <ehird> but whatever, you are wrong. it might not fit with what you want in a paren-filled language, but Lisp is all about macros. you're just saying 'i don't like macros', not 'macros are unlispish'
21:48:38 <SimonRC> there is a subset of this channel that should avoid reading today's xkcd...
21:49:04 <SimonRC> I know how to tell if you are int this subset ...
21:49:21 <SimonRC> but to tell you would cause exactly the problem that avoiding reading today's xkcd would cause
21:49:22 <ehird> oklopol: it's about losing the game
21:49:28 <lament> lisp is all about scaring the user away with 50-year-old conventions, fragmented community, half-crazy evangelists, weird syntax and an overall air of nuttyness
21:49:32 <ais523> ehird: I like them in some cases, but the rest of Lisp seems like the wrong language to put them in
21:49:48 <oerjan> there is a new xkcd today?
21:49:52 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?q=1+teaspoon+in+megaparsec+barns
21:49:56 <ais523> SimonRC: is it uncontroversial, well-sourced proof that the Game exists?
21:49:59 <ehird> oerjan: yes, it's about losing The Game
21:50:05 <ais523> because Wikipedia have been looking for that for a while
21:50:07 <SimonRC> ais523: it is a definition
21:50:28 <ehird> ais523: well, those people are idiots :)
21:50:33 <ais523> unfortunately, xkcd probably isn't a sufficiently reliable source
21:50:37 <ehird> The Game undisputably does exist and it's very popular
21:50:44 <ais523> ehird: yes, but can you /prove/ it
21:50:58 -!- Judofyr has quit.
21:51:00 <SimonRC> someone mentionned an origin on the XKCD forum thread
21:51:05 <SimonRC> or at least hinted at an origin
21:51:13 <ehird> ais523: you can't *prove* anything
21:51:15 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that your statement is true, but finding reliable sources has proven very difficult
21:51:29 <ehird> well, sure. the game is by definition entirely grassroots
21:51:35 <SimonRC> oh, and BTW, for any game, there exists another game with the winnign and losing conditions reversed
21:51:39 <ais523> ehird: use the Wikipedia definition of 'find that it's stated in at least two reliable sources independent of the source itself'
21:51:50 <ais523> SimonRC: yes, that game is actually played at a roleplaying group I help to run
21:51:50 <SimonRC> so there is a game that you win whenever you lose The Game
21:51:56 <SimonRC> assuming The GAme is a game
21:52:02 <ehird> SimonRC: I just won The Antigame!!!!!
21:52:13 <ehird> ais523: yeah, um, you're not going to find that
21:52:16 <ehird> it's a popular mind game
21:52:17 <ais523> except that the first person to remember the existence of the Anti-Game wins it, and announcing the fact causes everyone within earshot to lose
21:52:23 <SimonRC> now, I just need to go back in time and invert the "win" game before The Game gets invented
21:52:31 <ehird> it probably deserves a WP article
21:52:34 <ehird> but it isn't highly notable
21:53:12 * oerjan wonders what this is all about
21:53:25 <SimonRC> oerjan: see forum thread, post #1
21:53:35 <ais523> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Game_%28game%29_%286th_nomination%29
21:53:46 <ais523> (that URL was retyped, so I may have got it wrong)
21:53:53 <SimonRC> do not read more that the first few posts though, as there are some very evil posts in that thread
21:54:05 <ais523> but it took that many before it was deleted
21:54:06 <ehird> ubt it looks funny
21:54:11 <ehird> 'The Game (game)'?!
21:54:18 <ehird> The Game (non-game)
21:54:25 <SimonRC> actually, reading the whole thread didn;t harm me
21:54:34 <ehird> ais523: a ridiculous one
21:54:39 <SimonRC> it might make you lose a lot more over the next few weeks though
21:55:08 <ehird> ais523: Everyone starts playing the moment they learn of The Game's existance.
21:55:09 <ais523> many people playing think the third rule compels me to play, but as I'm not playing I'm not bound by it
21:55:09 <SimonRC> ais523: to be accurate, you don't obey the rules
21:55:12 <ehird> You do not have a choice.
21:55:24 <ais523> the rules compel people to believe that, but they are wrong
21:55:29 <ehird> That's not a rule. That's just The Game.
21:55:38 <ais523> because the rules don't bind people until they start playing
21:55:40 <ehird> By its definition, it is a game whose participation is required after learning of its existance.
21:55:46 <ehird> The rules are just by-notes.
21:55:54 <ais523> admittedly, once you start, it's theoretically impossible to stop without forgetting the rules
21:55:59 <SimonRC> ais523: please stop trying to climb throught the keyhole and just open the damn door.
21:56:08 <ais523> ehird: it's a game, not a law of physics
21:56:20 <SimonRC> the definition of winning the game is a definition in the mathematical sense
21:56:28 <oklopol> the game cannot escape that greater rule binding all games, just as a side-effect-less function in haskell simply *cannot have side-effects*, both are run in microcosms bounded on an upper level
21:56:31 <SimonRC> you are not compelled to obey the rules
21:56:35 <ais523> SimonRC: AFAIK it's impossible to win the original game
21:56:58 <ehird> oklopol: you are wrong
21:56:59 <ais523> ehird: what statement of mine did you just try to object to?
21:57:09 <ais523> ehird: oklopol was right
21:57:23 <ais523> except for unsafePerformIO, of course
21:57:26 <ehird> factorial n = if n == 0 then 1 else unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "SIDE-EFFECT") `seq` n * factorial (n-1)
21:57:39 <oklopol> okay, okay, you won this round
21:57:42 <ehird> OK unsafePerformIO isn't standard but every interpreter and compiler implements it
21:57:47 <oklopol> but i'm fairly sure i had a point, still
21:58:04 <ais523> I agree with oklopol's point even if the statement has factual problems
21:58:31 <SimonRC> the definition of playing the game is to have heard of it, BUT there is no compulsion in the general case to obey the rules just because something called "playing the game" is defined as what you are doing
21:58:40 <ehird> sudo the-game --daemonize
21:58:45 <ehird> No longer in its jail!
21:58:56 <ehird> OK, so we're all bound by it now since I just introduced you all to it by starting it as a root daemon.
21:58:59 <ehird> Now you all must play,
21:59:10 <ais523> root priveliges don't carry over IRC AFAIK
21:59:20 <ais523> if they did, it would be a massive security risk
21:59:26 <SimonRC> ... so, by the definition of the rules, I am playing the game, BUT i am not obeying the stated rules
21:59:26 <ais523> as well as being somewhat hard to implement
21:59:43 <ais523> the rules themselves have a factually incorrect view of reality
22:00:08 <ehird> ais523: that was on god@universe
22:00:13 <SimonRC> that is another idea too: the original statement of the rules had a major misprint in them
22:00:17 <ehird> my message was just informing you that i'd done it
22:00:25 <ehird> and to introduce you all to the game (which is now a new instance)
22:00:27 <ehird> thus, you are all playing it.
22:00:32 * ais523 chooses not to believe ehird
22:00:43 <SimonRC> summary: "I must obey the rules of The Game must I? Or else what?"
22:01:55 <ehird> well, let's just say god@universe has kill(1)
22:02:01 <ais523> or else I will hit you with an ellipsis
22:02:14 <SimonRC> I wonder if I can beat some of the posters on that thread for "suggestion that is most likely to make someone keep losing the game every 5 mins for the next week".
22:02:32 <ehird> SimonRC: The Game porn
22:02:37 <oklopol> that's the problem with laws, in most peoples' eyes, nothing can be forbidden, things can only have a punishment.
22:02:41 <ehird> that gives away free iphones
22:02:47 <ehird> loaded with the porn as the theme & homepage etc
22:03:03 <SimonRC> oklopol: well, things can help or hinder one's objectives
22:03:15 <ehird> oklopol: I'm quite handy with attaching gdb to a process and poking at memory...
22:03:19 <ehird> I will MAKE ais523 obey!
22:03:49 <ais523> SimonRC: an IRC nickname?
22:03:59 -!- ehird has changed nick to TheGamehird.
22:04:06 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to YouJustLostTheGa.
22:04:23 -!- YouJustLostTheGa has changed nick to SimonRC.
22:04:23 <ais523> YouJustLostTheGa: is there a limit on nickname length?
22:04:33 <SimonRC> hehehe, I just made about 1000 pweople lose
22:05:00 <oklopol> SimonRC: i don't see what you mean
22:05:06 <oklopol> ehird: i don't see what you mean
22:05:14 <ais523> presumably SimonRC was in more than one channel
22:05:27 * ais523 just tried to tab-complete the word 'presumably'
22:05:44 -!- TheGamehird has changed nick to UJustLostTheGame.
22:06:19 <ais523> UJustLostTheGame: also yes
22:06:26 <ais523> but I haven't really learnt to use it
22:06:37 <ais523> and it's very beginner-unfriendly
22:06:55 <ais523> even worse than Emacs in that respect
22:07:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:07:32 <UJustLostTheGame> is that you can use vi's moving commands to use it efficiently
22:07:55 <SimonRC> I think that comes to almost 1000 people simultaneously
22:08:18 <ais523> SimonRC: were you busy counting how many people were in all the channels you were in?
22:08:20 <SimonRC> but an admin must have read it, and they might be about to /wall
22:08:50 <ais523> what we need to do now is get [[The Game (game)]] as Wikipedia's front-page featured article
22:09:09 <ais523> but you'd need loads more sources for that to happen
22:09:14 <ais523> maybe Everything2 would be easier
22:09:19 <SimonRC> yea, about 800 people just saw my nick change
22:10:03 <ais523> you would so get in trouble for that
22:10:20 <ais523> just like a Wikipedia admin would get in trouble for putting it in the sitenotice
22:10:33 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:10:39 <ais523> (no, I'm not going to do that, no matter how hard you try to persuade me)
22:10:56 * SimonRC imagines the headlines: "Wolphram Prize Winner starts wave of Game-Losing"
22:11:18 * ais523 wonders how annoyed Wolfram Research would get at the misspelling
22:11:31 <SimonRC> ais523: you are that guy, right?
22:11:56 * SimonRC ponders bashing the time around when he changed his nick
22:12:12 <ais523> how often is #esoteric bashed, anyway?
22:12:17 <ais523> probably not often enough
22:12:43 <ais523> and bashing it would actually tie into the point of the thread, ironically
22:12:52 <ais523> (does IRC have threads?)
22:13:11 <SimonRC> UJustLostTheGame: I am in many channels
22:13:25 <ais523> all of which are apparently secret apart from this one, or on different networks
22:13:29 <SimonRC> #uncyclopedia #haskell and #nethack being the major contributors
22:14:18 <ais523> SimonRC is in #haskell
22:14:22 <ais523> I just nipped over there to check
22:14:32 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: it was deleted after 6 AfDs
22:14:39 <ais523> the previous 5 didn't get enough consensus to delete it
22:15:30 <ais523> where people debate about whether to delete an article
22:15:44 <UJustLostTheGame> eso-std.org should have an irc network, but that would fragment the community :-)
22:15:45 <ais523> normally it's clear-cut delete or keep (or sometimes merge, redirect or transwiki), but not in this case
22:16:11 <ais523> UJustLostTheGame: write a pair of bots that copy all conversation from each channel into the other
22:16:14 <SimonRC> As some wit said: "The human hand has 5 fingers [citation needed]"
22:16:23 <ais523> and UJustLostTheGame: yes, it is normally clear-cut how to close an AfD
22:16:37 <SimonRC> ais523: they can tie networks together
22:16:53 <ais523> apparently in some places there's a craze of people carrying around small adhesive [citation needed] signs to stick on adverts
22:17:19 <SimonRC> there was one such bot in the OTTD channel for a whiloe
22:17:35 <SimonRC> ais523: he waves it at a political speech
22:17:43 <SimonRC> Randal is going to get power-mad some day
22:17:52 <SimonRC> I mean, he just took on The Game
22:20:36 <SimonRC> All you need is one disgruntled Google employee (with access to the front-page image)...
22:20:48 <SimonRC> oh, wait, "disgruntled Google employee" is an oxymoron
22:21:03 <ais523> you could put it in the adverts at the bottom of Hotmail messages
22:21:14 <ais523> that would only require a disgruntled Microsoft employee, which is much more likely
22:21:52 <SimonRC> nah MS research isn't real MS
22:23:51 * SimonRC want's hot-swappable kernels
22:24:47 <SimonRC> ooh, maybe the front page of slashdot would be good...
22:25:09 <ais523> nah, most of the people there probably play it already
22:25:21 <ais523> hmm... what about making it pop up in a Windows Update dialog box?
22:26:28 <ais523> UJustLostTheGame: just store it using base-Fibonacci or some other self-delimiting number scheme
22:26:32 <ais523> then you don't need delimiting info
22:27:04 <SimonRC> but a decent philosophical analysis of The Game might make the front page of slashdot and digg...
22:27:54 <ais523> is savethegame.org still running?
22:30:51 -!- ais523 has quit ("what oerjan said").
22:31:35 <slereah_> Well, the first version of the Andrei Machine's specs is posted.
22:35:35 <SimonRC> UJustLostTheGame: look back up...
22:35:46 <SimonRC> "22:07:20 -!- oerjan [n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no] has quit ["Good night"]"
22:36:29 <slereah_> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Andrei_Machine_9000
22:37:15 <oklopol> slereah_: is 9000 your trademark?
22:38:12 <slereah_> It's based on the Gruntmeister 9000 in the Dilbert cartoon.
22:39:47 <SimonRC> oklopol: it's that one with the engineer with the wonky tie
22:40:06 <oklopol> i know *dilbert*, just not gruntmeister
22:40:18 <slereah_> It's from the animated series.
22:40:41 <oklopol> although dilbert actually has some weird-ass translation in finland, so i could well have not known that
22:40:44 <slereah_> There's a bunch of them centered around their next product, the Gruntmaster 6000.
22:41:24 <slereah_> Then one day, the competition announces a product of their own, the Gruntmeister 9000 :o
22:41:43 <oklopol> i liked 9000 better as your trademark
22:42:45 <oklopol> love machine 9000, andrew machine 9000, will we be seeing something *original* soon?
22:43:06 <oklopol> was lazy bird 9000 original in some way?
22:43:11 <slereah_> And the never finished Clockpunk!
22:43:19 <oklopol> that i've never even heard about
22:43:23 <slereah_> Also the soon to come Volterra.
22:43:32 <oklopol> that i've never even heard about
22:43:49 <slereah_> Although those two, I'm not sure if they're Turing complete, or even useful in some way
22:43:59 <slereah_> Volterra is based on animal populations as datas.
22:44:14 <slereah_> It's easiest program will be the Fibonacci!
22:45:02 <slereah_> Clock Punk uses clocks as datas.
22:45:15 <oklopol> you prolly get primitive-recursive functions out of volterra
22:45:16 <slereah_> It is painfully slow, inefficient and unportable.
22:45:34 <oklopol> if it's anything like i imagine
22:45:53 <slereah_> Well, I thought of it today, so I'm open to suggestion.
22:46:21 <oklopol> well, first of all you want "o" to be the basic "creature"
22:46:27 <slereah_> So far, you have to define the animals. Their original populations, reproduction rates, predation conversion.
22:46:56 <oklopol> parens someway separate populations
22:47:06 <oklopol> and populations fight when barriers crash
22:47:09 <slereah_> And then, once you haver that, you give a list of instructions
22:47:19 <oklopol> barriers crash when the population inside them gets too big
22:47:30 <oklopol> then the population gets smaller, and barriers can rebuild.
22:47:40 <oklopol> SimonRC: they will mature up, and start breeding
22:47:51 <oklopol> because they belong to the same initial population, they shall not fight
22:47:58 <slereah_> As the name implies, it's based on the Lotka-Volterra equation.
22:48:21 <slereah_> It's also on a discrete version of it.
22:48:54 <slereah_> You've got n populations. herbivores at the bottom, and then, n eats n-1
22:49:29 <slereah_> The herbivores have a reproduction rate. an individual gives birth to puppies and kittens or whatever.
22:49:30 <SimonRC> surely you can't even do list indexing in it?
22:49:50 <slereah_> The predators converts food into babies
22:50:02 <slereah_> Well, it's only an idea so far
22:50:25 <SimonRC> hmm, your clockpunk idea sounds fun actually: each variable increments every time an instruction is executed.
22:50:31 <slereah_> A stupid one, and actually similar to Clock Punk.
22:50:45 <SimonRC> a cat would need to compensate for the ticks taken between input and output for example
22:50:51 <slereah_> Both are time changing variables.
22:51:12 <slereah_> Yes. Clockpunk has huge problems for that
22:51:17 <oklopol> i don't really like the idea of numbers for volterra
22:51:28 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
22:51:38 <oklopol> but whatever moves your bowels
22:51:58 <slereah_> Clockpunk has an interpreter, of sort, if you want
22:52:18 <slereah_> It still lacks the conditional jump.
22:52:29 <slereah_> Or maybe not. Maybe it's just not complete
22:52:53 <slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Clockpunk.py
22:53:23 <slereah_> There's two symbols. - waits for one time period, * executes an instruction.
22:53:38 <slereah_> The instructions depend on the value of the clock, mod 8
22:53:59 <SimonRC> not like my idea quite then
22:54:45 <slereah_> It's actually a better idea, since you can use conditionals
22:54:59 <SimonRC> TBH I think keeping track of how long everything took would be quite hard enough
22:55:22 <slereah_> Plus, with multitasking, it might even be impossible!
22:55:28 <SimonRC> if one branch of an if takes longer than another, the compensation must differ
22:55:50 <SimonRC> but the clock ticks must be defined in the language
22:56:10 <slereah_> Well, if it is, it would just be a Turing machine where the cells increase at every step.
22:56:10 <SimonRC> this makes everything slow down proportional to space consumption
22:56:32 <SimonRC> very like a computer clock though
22:56:53 <slereah_> Isn't it just a regular clock inside?
22:57:07 <slereah_> (When I say regular, I mean a quartz cristal)
22:57:45 <SimonRC> ok, maybe like the x86 instruction counter then
23:02:17 * slereah_ was thinking of three variables for Volterra.
23:02:42 <slereah_> Bears do not attack wolves, but they can through the rule of cool
23:03:34 <oklopol> slereah_: also add some nopular birds
23:04:08 <oklopol> nopular == one that performs a nop
23:16:43 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving").
23:19:01 <slereah_> I'm not sure combinators would fit well in the context!
23:24:13 <oklopol> heh, right, lazy birds... birds just happened to be the most apparently nopular creature i could think of
23:26:36 <SimonRC> birds referring to the lambda-calculus-with-birds thing, right?
23:27:22 <oklopol> yeah, that's the reference i didn't get from what i said myself
23:37:33 <oklopol> hmm... i'm fairly sure i just invented directed acyclic graphs...
23:37:47 <oklopol> i hate living in this century
23:39:03 <oklopol> but at least this mathematics i'm doing with it just *has* to be new, because no one prolly investigated dags that much!
23:41:20 <oklopol> n = 3n in ascii, isn't it defined on that?
23:41:58 <oklopol> same goes for letters ofc, except letters are one-based
23:43:11 <SimonRC> A 1..10 scale in hex is one of the few places where an E is good
23:43:24 <SimonRC> A is not so good, and 7 rather sucks