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01:39:10 <pikhq> All in favor of me writing an OS?
01:40:12 <ehird> It's not exciting.
01:40:16 <pikhq> And where'd you get stuck?
01:40:26 <ehird> At the part where it became terminally boring.
01:40:36 <lament> so right at the start, then :)
01:41:04 <slereah_> I'm for it, as long as I'm not you.
01:41:23 <ehird> lament: And all the way through.
01:41:49 <pikhq> Esomic is quite tempting.
01:42:27 <pikhq> ATM, I'm just fiddling with basic routines for doing text mode without the BIOS.
01:44:35 <lament> pikhq: think: it's a LOT of fairly meaningless porting work.
01:45:04 <pikhq> lament: I think I noticed already.
01:45:21 <pikhq> I'm terminally bored, though. Might as well do *something* with that terminal boredom.
01:49:14 <lament> design a really cool non-esoteric programming language
01:49:29 <lament> a better lisp, perhaps :)
01:50:02 <lament> to qualify, it has to be better than anything else in existance.
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01:50:52 <slereah_> Non-esoteric? Doesn't that require a lot of instructions? :o
01:51:23 <slereah_> What's the shortest instruction set for a non-esoteric language that isn't machine code?
01:54:36 <lament> machine code languages probably have the biggest instruction sets
01:54:51 <pikhq> That depends: what do you consider an esolang? :p
01:54:53 <lament> also, what's an "instruction"? Any builtin?
01:55:21 <pikhq> If you consider Lambda calculus non-esoteric, then there you go.
01:55:55 <slereah_> Well, built in in the basic language I suppose.
01:56:04 <slereah_> Without the modules and whatnots.
01:57:02 <pikhq> Well, in *that* case. . .
01:59:37 <lament> lisp/scheme has very few
02:01:40 <lament> pikhq: do it! there aren't enough amazingly awesome languages.
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03:53:04 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: behold a doodle! http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1204661750-arch.png
03:55:03 <oklopol> well, my point was in no way anything. i should really start tagging my actually meaningful sentences somehow...
03:55:49 <pikhq> IRC with sentence tagging. Good idea?
03:55:55 <pikhq> (very Web 2.0, BTW.)
03:55:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I've finally figured out a design for the leg mechanics that I'm happy with.
03:57:28 <oklopol> why the fuck would i drink a couple of energy drinks at about midnight, when i want to wake up early
03:58:01 <pikhq> Because sleeping is bad for you.
03:58:02 <Sgeo> I guess I should work on PSOX safety and finish the filesystem domain, then it's a release of 1.0b1
03:58:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you working on PSOX compatible tools?
03:58:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, I'm working on a simple kernel.
03:58:41 <Sgeo> Will anyone notice 1.0b1?
03:59:10 <pikhq> ATM, it just proves that I'm running in 32 bit mode.
03:59:43 <pikhq> (by running a 32-bit ELF with a Multiboot header, of course)
04:04:16 -!- pikhq has set topic: Gygax: May you get a perfect 20 on your 'rest in peace' saving throw. | #awesome | esoteric as always.
04:12:07 <Sgeo> Multiboot header?
04:12:31 <pikhq> The GNU Multiboot specification. . .
04:12:53 <pikhq> It's a generic method for a bootloader to talk to an OS kernel and load it into memory.
04:13:05 <pikhq> Works pretty well for most any OS.
04:13:28 <pikhq> One kernel using it is Xen. ;)
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10:26:52 <AnMaster> well my befunge93 in bash is making progress (or rather, befunge93+, to make it turing complete, I allow infinite 2D playfield, limited width but not limited height)
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12:08:31 <slereah_> There's a buttload of exceptions to handle for a Fibonacci graph.
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16:54:23 <AnMaster> for befunge93, is the input line based? that is, should it read one char (like fgetc), or a whole line (like fgets)?
16:54:45 <AnMaster> sure it should pass one char at a time to the code, but should it cache the results until the user hits enter?
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18:45:28 <AnMaster> for befunge93, is the input line based? that is, should it read one char (like fgetc), or a whole line (like fgets)? sure it should pass one char at a time to the code, but should it cache the results until the user hits enter?
18:45:42 <AnMaster> so should it be buffered or not?
18:46:16 <AnMaster> err, how is that related to befunge?
18:52:04 <AnMaster> slereah_, btw my bashfunge is going well
18:52:26 <AnMaster> it isn't befunge98, but a superset of befunge93 that is turing complete
18:52:54 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/index.py/log/bashfunge/head
18:53:06 <AnMaster> still a few eval around, plan to fix that later
18:55:18 <ehird_> AnMaster: why do you like Bash?
18:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird_, because it makes people ask why I like bash
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19:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird_, how is tuberculosis going?
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19:02:22 <ehird_> olsner now likely thinks i literally have tuberculosis
19:03:00 <olsner> ehird_: ZOMG, YOU HAVE TUBERCULOSIS FOR REAL?
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19:35:32 <ehird_> '<Sgeo>pikhq, are you working on PSOX compatible tools?'
19:35:41 <ehird_> if not, get back to work! you must do as i say
19:36:43 <Sgeo> AWW NetAuthority is down
19:36:44 <Sgeo> http://www.netauthority.org/index.html
19:38:24 <ehird_> on the upside it links to cectic
19:45:14 * Sgeo reads through cectic
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20:24:15 <louzer> What is meant by wrapping constants on wikipedia?
20:24:47 <louzer> I mean I went to BF wiki and found non-wrapping and wrapping constants
20:25:49 <Judofyr> louzer: with wrapping means that if you increment 255, you'll get 0
20:26:08 <Judofyr> on some implementation it will just exit/crash the program
20:27:05 <oerjan> and some, strangely enough, have numbers bigger than 255...
20:27:30 <Judofyr> but most of the time, the wrapping-constants will work
20:27:31 <louzer> lets say I'm trying to print letter E. so if i use the wrapping code, and if I add 255 to the memory location after the byte with ascii E is formed.. the memory will become 0, crash or go higher?
20:28:47 <louzer> u know im starting to like BF
20:29:20 <oerjan> wrapping code may not give the ascii E to begin with
20:29:56 <louzer> I tried and it outputted E
20:29:56 <oerjan> (on a non-wrapping implementation)
20:30:17 <louzer> hmm is non-wrapping .. wrapping the property of the implemetnation?
20:30:58 <oerjan> the non-wrapping code should work on all implementations that can support all byte values at all
20:31:39 <oerjan> wrapping code may only work on those which wrap 255 to 0 and vice versa
20:32:15 <oerjan> but for output, some of the wrapping codes _may_ work otherwise, but be slower, on implementations which truncate output to the last 8 bits (i think egobfi does this)
20:33:10 <oerjan> in that case the actual value produced may differ in the other bits
20:33:37 <oerjan> this is because most of the special wrapping code is based on tricks from modulo 256 arithmetic
20:34:08 <louzer> i cant believe this thing is turing complete
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20:35:13 <louzer> if ur on mac os x what is the recommended bf interpreter
20:36:52 <Judofyr> louzer: most interpreter for Linux will work for Mac too
20:37:08 <louzer> Judofyr: ok will compile one then
20:37:43 <Judofyr> louzer: Or find one in Python/Java/Ruby etc.
20:38:02 <louzer> Judofyr: yeah.. or write one
20:40:23 <oerjan> i guess writing a brainfuck interpreter is the initiating rite for #esoteric, like writing a monad tutorial is for #haskell
20:40:43 <oerjan> i don't think i've done either, btw
20:41:00 <Judofyr> which language do you use?
20:41:33 <oerjan> mostly Haskell for what little programming i do nowadays
20:42:21 <Judofyr> oerjan: http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Short_examples/BF_interpreter :)
20:42:35 <oerjan> oh i know it has been done
20:42:53 <oerjan> it's just i never finished mine
20:43:26 <oerjan> i've mostly done unlambda interpreters instead
20:46:50 <oerjan> what the heck the wiki example uses an actual foreign array
20:49:32 <oerjan> when it's so easy to use a pair of lists for unbounded tape
20:49:50 <Judofyr> oerjan: it's a wiki, you can improve it :)
20:50:13 <oerjan> well it's supposedly a particular interpreter
21:22:20 <SimonRC> in the style of that J interpreter
21:24:18 <SimonRC> "V(tl)for(;;){w.p=*ip.p;(*w.p+2)();}}
21:24:37 <SimonRC> the top-leve loop, with extraneous "
21:24:39 <ehird_> truly, how c was meant to be
21:25:35 <SimonRC> it means: forever: let w be what the ip reg points to; call the function whose address is stored at w+2
21:25:43 <SimonRC> w is pointing to the current word, BTW
21:26:14 <ehird_> SimonRC: plz show full source
21:26:34 <SimonRC> the code for colon defs relies on w pointing to the current word, becuase it changes the ip to w[3]
21:27:33 <ehird_> SimonRC: I'm working on a concatenative functional language
21:27:41 <ehird_> but strongly-typed like Cat
21:27:50 <ehird_> but cooler - I hope to make it *purely functional* like Haskell
21:28:15 <ehird_> dip :: 'R 'a ('R -> 'S) -> 'S 'a
21:28:50 <ehird_> SimonRC: can't think of any fun examples to show you
21:30:02 <ehird_> SimonRC: but it means that a stack underflow can never happen
21:30:05 <ehird_> since it is always a type error
21:30:13 <ehird_> and is therefore caught at compile-time
21:30:31 <ehird_> SimonRC: now tell me how awesome that is :p
21:32:05 <SimonRC> sounds rather lie cat so far
21:32:43 <ehird_> because cat is not purely functional
21:33:06 <ehird_> does cat have type inferrence?
21:33:08 <SimonRC> OTOH, stacks do tend to put an ordering on instructions
21:33:12 <ehird_> it seems to but not for functions
21:33:20 <ehird_> you can reason about stacks functionally
21:33:31 <ehird_> a function is `stack -> stack`
21:33:36 <ehird_> but with more constraints on 'stack'
21:33:47 <ehird_> where 'R is the rest of the stack
21:33:58 <ehird_> and then ' ' instead of being the application operator like in Haskell is the compose operator
21:34:02 <AnMaster> ehird_, what language is that?
21:35:07 <AnMaster> also, what about TURKY BOMB, did you get anywhere with the interpreter?
21:35:13 <ehird_> but i will work on it soon
21:35:50 <AnMaster> ehird_, did you say I wouldn't be able to do befunge in bash? ;P
21:36:03 <AnMaster> it is befunge93, and quite a bit of befunge98
21:36:06 <ehird_> You are just doing Befunge-93 with one extension, which is trivial.
21:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird_, not one extension, I'm aiming at quite a few of them
21:36:42 <ehird_> until you get Fingerprints and Funge's topology rules..
21:36:54 <ehird_> how WOULD monads work?
21:36:56 <AnMaster> ehird_, I do have fingerprints, partly
21:37:00 <ehird_> functions can return multiple values
21:37:07 <ehird_> but i cannot express that in a type to wrap it in 'm'
21:37:51 <ehird_> bind :: 'R (m 'a) ('R 'a -> 'R (m 'b)) -> 'R (m 'b)
21:37:56 <ehird_> SimonRC: but that only handles one return value
21:43:20 <ehird_> oerjan: that wraps the whole stack in the monad
21:43:29 <ehird_> specifically, the stack gets reduced to one element
21:43:39 <ehird_> oerjan: but that can include stuff not involved in the monadic computation
21:43:41 * SimonRC wonders what the pre-processor would do with a macro called $
21:44:10 <ehird_> oerjan: so that's incorrect
21:44:11 <SimonRC> will it recognise it in constructs like foo$bar?
21:44:11 <ehird_> SimonRC: which pre-processor?
21:44:22 <ehird_> it uses c identifier rules#
21:44:45 <SimonRC> does that mean I can't have a macro called ^ either?
21:45:42 <ehird_> SimonRC: that is correct
21:45:55 <ehird_> $ is a valid macro nam
21:46:10 <ehird_> SimonRC: it uses C breaking rules, but dumbified
21:47:41 <ehird_> SimonRC: that won't break though
21:47:57 <SimonRC> indeed, but it still looks good, even with the spaces
21:48:11 <ehird_> SimonRC: can i see the interp? :D
21:49:18 <ehird_> SimonRC: hehe, HUMAN-LOOKING DEFINITIONS:
21:49:38 <ehird_> say-hi: "Hello, world!" print.
21:51:05 <ehird_> fact: ('R Int -> 'R Int) dup 0 = [1] [dup 1 - fact *] if.
21:51:14 <ehird_> but ofc you can leave out the typedef
21:55:38 <ehird_> SimonRC: what functions does your forth have?
21:55:56 <SimonRC> here are the binary operators, as defined in the source:
21:56:03 <SimonRC> B(ad,+) B(su,-) B(mu,*) B(di,/) B(an,&) B(or,|) B(xo,^)
21:56:36 <ehird_> SimonRC: ehm.. not traditional forth i take it...
21:56:49 <SimonRC> no, that is how they are defined in the C source
21:56:51 <ehird_> that is, 'if' isn't a word defined in forth in yours?
21:57:16 <ehird_> IMO most 'forths' out there that aren't actual real ANS Forth are more like 'regular stack languages'
21:57:37 <SimonRC> the secret of forth is factoring, simplicity, and smallness
21:57:47 <ehird_> SimonRC: jonesforth is the best example of what i'd consider "real forth"
21:57:55 <ehird_> i wouldn't call yours forth, probably :-)
21:58:08 <ehird_> well, I consider 'forth'ness to be an implementation attribute
21:58:12 <ehird_> not the external interface
22:00:11 <ehird_> SimonRC: it looks programmed at a too high level
22:04:19 * SimonRC wonders if there is a way to get macros to set up the initial dictionary
22:05:01 <SimonRC> heck, intialising is going to be really tough
22:05:10 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:06:26 <ehird_> SimonRC: forth is a lot easier in asm
22:07:07 <SimonRC> or in fact any language with a semi-decent macro system
22:12:14 <ehird_> SimonRC: I broked jonesforht
22:12:16 <ehird_> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
22:17:02 <ehird_> SimonRC: I wonder how small you can make a Fort
22:17:08 <ehird_> maybe a 100% ascii dos com one? :)
22:41:29 <SimonRC> ok, I have some untestted and indeed uncompiled code to show you
22:45:14 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
22:45:28 <SimonRC> yeah, my logger just told me that
22:46:26 <ehird_> SimonRC: soon, pb.eso-std.org
23:02:17 <ehird_> Atheist: I don't believe in God, yet I have morals. Theist: You don't need to believe... Theist: Think of it this way: if you didn't believe in the post office, you'd still get mail. Caption: Your mail unicorn would still fly by and teleport letters into your mailbox... Caption: No matter what you believed. Atheist: Uh... I don't think they use flying unicorns... Theist: Sheesh. Do you atheists believe in ANYTHING?
23:02:17 <ehird_> talk Talk about this comic in the forum.
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23:26:11 <Sgeo> I think I'll work on PSOX 1.0b1 on Friday
23:26:17 <Sgeo> And I'm adding in safety stuff
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23:28:12 <ehird> Sgeo: I would argue with you, but I'm too busy despairing about PSOX every time it's mentioned.
23:28:46 <Sgeo> It's internal safety against mistakes, not safety against malicious PSOX programs
23:36:29 <pikhq> So, basically, it's more about adding a command to enable certain unsafe commands, just to prevent some poor Brainfuck coder from hitting rm * rather than ls.
23:38:53 <ehird> pikhq: Are you satirizing it?
23:39:16 <pikhq> ehird: Just commenting ATM.
23:39:23 <pikhq> My satire is crueler.
23:39:43 <pikhq> So, basically, you're strapping a nuclear sub to a skateboard?
23:39:57 <ehird> pikhq: It's a nuclear sub with a little plastic cover over the torpedo buttons.
23:40:13 <ehird> Except that 'rm *' in PSOX would require a call to glob, etc.
23:40:18 <ehird> 'ls', significantly easier.
23:40:25 <ehird> And how on earth do you typo something like that?!
23:45:37 <ehird> welp, if you make something like that...
23:45:43 <ehird> you deserve the lesson!
23:45:50 <ehird> esp. if you're running it in a dir with important files