00:03:22 <pikhq> 2 more days until Shadowmoor prerelease. w00ts.
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02:08:39 <lament> you missed the Church half
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04:30:05 <calamari> EsoBot: sit there doing nothing useful
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04:31:55 <calamari> EsoBot: sit there doing nothing useful
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04:56:15 <calamari> I guess I'm not doing the thread right.. I should try fork instead
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05:01:57 <EsoBot> sh: beef: command not found
05:02:10 <EsoBot> [1;34mbin[0m [1;34mdev[0m [1;34metc[0m [1;34mhome[0m [1;34mlib[0m [1;34mproc[0m [1;34msbin[0m [1;34msys[0m [1;34mtmp[0m [1;34musr[0m
05:08:14 <calamari> guess I need to wait on it to time out
05:10:26 -!- EsoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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05:11:24 <calamari> EsoBot: export PS1="\s-\v\$\n"
05:11:26 <EsoBot> sh-3.2# export PS1="\s-\v\$\n"
05:12:47 <EsoBot> bin dev etc home lib proc sbin sys tmp usr
05:13:07 <calamari> I think it was better before.. hehe
05:13:46 <EsoBot> Python 2.4.2 (#3, Apr 13 2008, 20:46:27)
05:13:48 <EsoBot> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
05:14:23 <EsoBot> Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object.
05:15:04 <EsoBot> sh-3.2$export PS1="\s-\v\$ "
05:16:20 <calamari> EsoBot: ls -lF --color=never /etc
05:16:22 <EsoBot> sh-3.2$ ls -lF --color=never /etc
05:16:23 <EsoBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 10 Apr 15 05:15 group
05:16:24 <EsoBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 7 Apr 15 04:29 hostname
05:16:25 <EsoBot> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 1024 Apr 15 04:45 init.d/
05:16:26 <EsoBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 22 Apr 15 04:29 issue
05:16:27 <EsoBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1412 Apr 15 04:29 ld.so.cache
05:16:28 <EsoBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 330 Apr 15 04:29 mke2fs.conf
05:16:29 <EsoBot> drwxrwxrwx 6 root root 1024 Apr 15 04:29 network/
05:16:30 <EsoBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 44 Apr 15 05:15 passwd
05:16:49 <EsoBot> Filesystem Size Used Available Use% Mounted on
05:16:50 <EsoBot> rootfs 60.7M 11.1M 49.7M 18% /
05:16:51 <EsoBot> /dev/root 60.7M 11.1M 49.7M 18% /
05:16:52 <EsoBot> devshm 14.8M 0 14.8M 0% /dev/shm
05:17:21 <calamari> I need to convince it that my terminal is crap.. I wonder how I do that
05:17:45 <EsoBot> sh-3.2$ export TERM=dumb
05:17:54 <EsoBot> [1;34mbin[0m [1;34mdev[0m [1;34metc[0m [1;34mhome[0m [1;34mlib[0m [1;34mproc[0m [1;34msbin[0m [1;34msys[0m [1;34mtmp[0m [1;34musr[0m
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05:25:23 <EsoBot> sh: :q: command not found
05:25:32 <calamari> ahh I guess it did work then.. hehe
05:27:23 <calamari> EsoBot: export PS1='[\s-\v] \w\$ '
05:27:25 <EsoBot> sh-3.2# export PS1='[\s-\v] \w\$ '
05:27:36 <EsoBot> [sh-3.2] /home/root# ls -a
05:27:37 <EsoBot> [1;34m.[0m [1;34m..[0m
05:27:54 <EsoBot> [sh-3.2] /home/root# pwd
05:29:54 <calamari> btw, is this annoying the crap out of anyone?
05:30:15 <calamari> if it is, I can stop anytime :)
05:31:56 <calamari> if not, feel free to mess around with it
05:32:16 <calamari> there isn't a c compiler yet, unfortunately.. still working on that.. but you have python
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05:45:16 <calamari> I'm impressed by your self-restraint.. figured someone would have been rm -rf /'ing by now
05:49:36 <EsoBot> [sh-3.2] /home/root# echo ~
05:50:11 <EsoBot> [sh-3.2] /home/root# ls -a --color=never /
05:50:14 <EsoBot> .bash_history etc proc tmp
05:50:17 <pikhq> EsoBot: :(){ :|:& };:
05:50:19 <EsoBot> [sh-3.2] /home/root# :(){ :|:& };:
05:50:20 <EsoBot> sh: `:': not a valid identifier
05:50:35 <pikhq> Your shell is not a valid Bourne shell.
05:51:07 <pikhq> Can't be; that'd work if it were Bourne.
05:51:24 <pikhq> EsoBot: fork(){ fork|fork& };fork
05:51:26 <EsoBot> [sh-3.2] /home/root# fork(){ fork|fork& };fork
05:51:44 <pikhq> Can't you see it's forkbombed?
05:52:12 <pikhq> And with that, I'm done fucking it over.
05:54:06 <EsoBot> [sh-3.2] /home/root# sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:07 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:08 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:09 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:10 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:11 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:12 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:13 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:14 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:15 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:17 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:19 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:21 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:23 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:25 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:27 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:29 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:31 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:33 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:35 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:37 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:39 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:41 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:43 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:45 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:47 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:54:49 <EsoBot> sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
05:55:40 <calamari> it looks like the bot lost its shell
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05:56:51 <EsoBot> sh-3.2# cat /proc/meminfo
05:57:26 <EsoBot> VmallocTotal: 1007584 kB
05:57:30 <EsoBot> VmallocChunk: 1007584 kB
05:57:35 <calamari> I'm impressed tho.. usually a fork bomb like that locks the system hard.. guess they've been working on it
05:58:18 <EsoBot> sh-3.2# ls -lF /bin/sh
05:58:19 <EsoBot> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Apr 15 04:29 [1;36m/bin/sh[0m -> [1;32mbash[0m*
05:58:46 <calamari> EsoBot: ls -lF --color=never /bin/sh
05:58:48 <EsoBot> sh-3.2# ls -lF --color=never /bin/sh
05:58:49 <EsoBot> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Apr 15 04:29 /bin/sh -> bash*
05:59:29 <calamari> now maybe bash is just not bourne compatible enough :)
06:00:53 <GregorR> calamari: I added a site map ... JUST FOR YOU
06:01:06 <pikhq> Modern capabilities allow for users to only use so many processes.
06:01:09 <GregorR> (Even though what you were looking for at the time wasn't actually on my site :p )
06:01:49 <calamari> GregorR: turns out I didn't rip off your code.. sorry :(
06:02:18 <GregorR> You're ... apologizing for this. God I hate common politeness.
06:03:11 <calamari> lol.. maybe on the surface I was being polite
06:03:56 <calamari> but the sorry meant "sorry that your code was so bad it was easier just to write what I needed from scratch" .. that better? :)
06:04:59 <calamari> so now I need to learn how to use ed
06:05:56 <EsoBot> hello.py: No such file or directory
06:08:49 <EsoBot> "hello.py", 2 lines, 44 chars
06:09:09 <EsoBot> Really quit? chmod +x hello
06:09:37 <calamari> argh.. .. linux is just not designed with a line printer in mind
06:10:47 <EsoBot> sh-3.2# chmod +x hello.py
06:12:15 <calamari> maybe there is a stty command I need
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06:18:00 <calamari> GregorR: did you write a program for your sitemap?
06:23:45 <calamari> http://choosemyhat.com/ that's pretty funny
06:27:26 <calamari> GregorR: you need a baseball cap
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06:59:25 <calamari> cool, private message is working
07:00:41 <calamari> still needs to check for nick changes and such so be gentle :)
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09:57:31 <oklohot> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg <<< i only use these (yes, yes, i use smiling dudes for my sick sex games)
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15:06:04 <oklopol> esoteric-wise, oklotalk-- and nopol
15:06:24 <oklopol> coding-wise, those + seedfest again, if you remember that, gotten some of the evolution stuff to work
15:06:36 <oklopol> life-wise, those, plus some girl stuff
15:08:09 <RodgerTheGreat> Hm. An extremely stressful week is drawing to a close, and all I have to worry about is an Algorithms exam. I am looking forward to the weekend and sleep, and I've started drawing the tileset for a new game idea
15:08:24 <RodgerTheGreat> Also, I lost my sketchbook last week, which really sucks. :(
15:08:52 <oklopol> was it a *the* scetchbook?
15:09:34 <oklopol> what i mean is, was it like the scetchbook you've using your whole life, or jsut one of them
15:09:51 <oklopol> algorithms exam sounds easy
15:10:49 <oklopol> how many pieces of art are we talking? hundreds
15:11:05 <oklopol> wow, i need to leave in like 5 minutes :\
15:11:18 <oklopol> but answer both if you can'
15:11:51 <RodgerTheGreat> well, let me describe the professor- that'll give you a better idea. Three times this semester (so far), he's included homework problems that are in fact impossible. "Sorry about that, guys!"
15:12:28 <oklopol> would be awesome to do that on purpose
15:13:36 <oklopol> i would prolly be the kind of professor who always gives an on-topic question the humanity has yet to answer, and says "if you solve this, or make a good attempt to, you get an A"
15:13:44 <oklopol> well perhaps not the good attempt to
15:13:48 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I guess we learned from them but it tends to make homework less fun
15:13:51 <oklopol> but would be so awesome to do stuff like that
15:14:10 <RodgerTheGreat> you can never be sure if you're stuck because you're missing something or because it cannot be done
15:14:14 <oklopol> making people do impossible stuff without telling them it's impossible is cool in a different way
15:14:20 <oklopol> i would prolly not do that.
15:14:38 <oklopol> it's cool as in "lol what a freak you have as a professor"
15:15:22 <oklopol> one vague example is sufficient
15:16:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I think this exam covers brute force algorithms, divide-and-conquer and reduce-and-conquer
15:16:40 <RodgerTheGreat> there's potential for some pretty nasty stuff involving 2-4 trees as well
15:16:53 <oklopol> 2-4 tree is just a special case of b?
15:17:53 <oklopol> okay, perhaps i don't know it, avl isn't isomorphic
15:18:10 <oklopol> anyway, good luck, i'll leave for a while now!
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15:20:10 <ehird> oklohot, are you still dead
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15:30:55 <ehird> <calamari>EsoBot: sit there doing nothing useful04:30:05
15:30:55 <ehird> EsoBotQuit with message (Remote closed the connection).
15:33:44 <ehird> <oklohot>http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg <<< i only use these (yes, yes, i use smiling dudes for my sick sex games)
15:33:46 <ehird> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg
15:33:46 <ehird> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg
15:33:46 <ehird> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg
15:33:47 <ehird> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg
15:33:47 <ehird> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg
15:33:50 <ehird> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg
15:33:52 <ehird> http://content.cafepress.com/products/additional_photos/152_c6_1.jpg
15:33:57 <ehird> linking to anything which can lead to that picture is a trap
15:34:03 <ehird> i can't restrain myself
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16:24:36 <ehird> (uh oh, our regexp handlers are broken)
16:24:42 * ais523 has an urge to say hello to someone else at random
16:24:56 <ais523> that wasn't very randomly chosen, by the way
16:25:05 <ais523> maybe I should say hello to clog and cmeme too
16:25:09 <ais523> Hello, clog and cmeme!
16:25:18 <ehird> what is the diff. between clog and cmeme
16:25:26 <ais523> any other bots in here I've missed?
16:25:26 <ehird> cmeme = ircbrowse.com
16:25:34 <ehird> but doesn't ircbrowse.com read from ~ned??
16:25:43 <ais523> no, they log themselves, I think
16:26:00 <ehird> ais523, the reason I said was:
16:26:19 <ehird> These logs are purposely "raw" and are intended to be parsed/reformated/wrapped before viewing.
16:26:19 <ehird> Annoyances such as horizontal window scrolling are due to the poor choice of viewer.
16:26:19 <ehird> For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/.
16:26:19 <ehird> For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com.
16:26:23 <ehird> meme must have used to do it
16:26:48 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ --> .pr UPPER .pr STRING p=".pr UPPER .pr STRING p=?;print(p[:22]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[24:])";print(p[:22]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[24:]) --> this_is_an_oklotalk_quine.
16:26:51 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric --> .pr UPPER .pr STRING p=".pr UPPER .pr STRING p=?;print(p[:22]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[24:])";print(p[:22]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[24:]) --> this_is_an_oklotalk_quine.
16:26:54 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ --> .pr UPPER .pr STRING p=".pr UPPER .pr STRING p=?;print(p[:22]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[24:])";print(p[:22]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[24:]) --> this_is_an_oklotalk_quine.
16:26:58 <ais523> ehird: the "prettier" line doesn't say "of these logs", whereas the line above does
16:27:13 <ais523> so I reckon that they knew they were different logs all along
16:29:29 <ais523> incidentally, the topic is also a Kimian quine in INTERCAL-72
16:29:54 <ais523> but C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL will print out an error message, and line number, etc., too, as did at least the Princeton version of INTERCAl-72
16:30:52 <ehird> kimian quines are fun
16:31:10 <ehird> ais523, do you know gnome? my taskbar just moved to the side of the screen and it won't go bac
16:31:28 <ais523> ehird: I don't know it very well
16:31:47 <ais523> you can remove all your customisations by deleting the appropriate dot file, and I've had to do that before
16:32:25 <ais523> (when I accidentally renamed all the files in my home directory to lowercase, it hit Desktop too, and it changed the settings automatically in an attempt to work around this, leading to ~ becoming my desktop, which was really confusing)
16:33:02 <ehird> ais523, oh jeez, i had to grab the few pixels between the top of the window buttons and the top of the taskbar..
16:33:17 <ehird> Gnome: GUIs for genius retards
16:33:17 <ais523> you have the toolbar at the bottom?
16:33:33 <ais523> yes, bottom is good for a taskbar
16:33:43 <ehird> ais523, I prefer no taskbar
16:33:45 <ais523> that way you don't get them mixed up
16:33:57 * ais523 is used to using a taskbar
16:33:57 <ehird> I like the OS X way of almost entirely forgetting that 'app' and 'app instance' are seperate
16:34:18 <ais523> ehird: that's not very useful when you have three terminal windows open
16:34:22 <ehird> ais523, Hmm. I was too, but I adjusted to the Dock in a matter of days.
16:34:30 <ehird> And it's suprisingly useful! Click terminal, and they all appear.
16:34:38 <ehird> Right click Terminal, and choose the window.
16:34:54 <ehird> Also, Expose is win when you want a specific window.
16:36:25 <ais523> ehird: but that takes multiple clicks/keystrokes
16:36:33 <ais523> I have terminal windows I'm using, and ones I want to forget about
16:36:39 <ehird> ais523, I've always found it faster than hutning around the taskbar.
16:36:43 <ais523> sometimes I'll push the ones I want to forget about onto a second desktop
16:36:52 <ehird> Anyway, Expose is the best one for finding a specific window.
16:36:59 <ais523> my taskbar is rarely cluttered, normally there are no more than 4 there at once
16:37:11 <ehird> F9, you immediately or near-immediately recognize the window you need, and shoot over and click it.
16:37:14 <ais523> and I can use Compiz to do much the same thing if I find the need to do that
16:37:22 <ais523> it's alt-shift-up here
16:37:26 <ehird> ais523, You can also F9-tab to select specific applications.
16:37:30 <ehird> Also, Compiz stole it from OS X.
16:37:53 <ehird> On a side node, the PHP docs are gems.
16:37:59 <ehird> People posting functions to sort objects by key!
16:38:22 <ais523> alt-shift-up then use arrow keys sounds easier than the keystrokes you mention, though
16:38:46 <ehird> ais523, F9-arrows works
16:39:07 <ais523> that sounds better, but I actually have to reach up to F9
16:39:24 <ehird> ais523, you can rebind it
16:39:25 <ais523> and being an Emacs user I can find Alt and Shift pretty quickly with my left hand, but F9 with my left hand is just painful
16:39:32 <ehird> you can bind it to a screen corner
16:39:40 <ehird> But swerve-swerve-click is damn fast.
16:39:55 <ehird> Obviously if you use OS X you have to be fast with the mouse. It's not hard.
16:39:58 <ais523> rebindability is the best way to solve flame wars about keyboard layout :)
16:40:11 <ais523> ehird: I don't use a mouse most of the time, except for browsing the Internet
16:40:27 <ehird> ais523, Well then duhhh. Of course you don't think OS X is fast.
16:40:37 <ehird> Not rocket science.
16:40:48 <ais523> although I bought a new one today (I wanted a wired one so I wouldn't need batteries) and I have it connected to test that it works
16:41:00 <ehird> http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/arquake/ augmented reality quake
16:41:07 <ais523> I admire many things about OS X, but have no reason to spend the money to buy it
16:57:33 * ais523 has just thought of a new sort of CAPTCHA, which would manage to simultaneously be useless and annoying
16:57:42 <ais523> the website puts out a word in plaintext
16:57:55 <ais523> and the user has to make an image containing that word and upload it, which the server then has to be able to OCR
16:58:06 <ais523> easy to automate, painful for a human to do
17:01:35 <ehird> that's actually useful
17:01:45 <ehird> you could invert the result
17:01:49 <ehird> if they failed, then they're a human
17:01:53 <ehird> but ... a bot could just automatically fail
17:02:25 <ehird> ais523, I actually think good captchas can be fun
17:02:48 <ais523> the idea was prompted by the one on thedailywtf
17:02:53 <ehird> Like, solving a maths problem is irritating.
17:02:57 <ehird> What about in reverse?
17:03:03 <ehird> Show a regular CAPTCHA image of a number.
17:03:05 <ais523> they put one which is obviously unsolvable in Error'd
17:03:09 <ehird> And require a sum that rseults in that number.
17:03:17 <ehird> I guess, though, if you can crack the test that doesn't help.
17:03:24 <ehird> Something javascript-based with a fallback could be fun.
17:03:26 <ais523> ehird: the CAPTCHA on intercal.freeshell.org is interesting
17:03:27 <ehird> Like, a Simon Says.
17:03:32 <ehird> ais523, But irritating
17:04:00 <ais523> ehird: no, if you click the link to the explanation of mingle, then the CAPTCHA sum is used as the example in the documentation
17:05:43 <ehird> ais523, it's still irritating
17:07:25 <ais523> what, even with tabbed browsing?
17:23:14 <ehird> ais523, actually, a good captcha would be
17:23:18 <ehird> 'which of these jokes is funny?'
17:23:27 <ehird> because you could select exactly the kind of people who could view your website
17:23:29 <ehird> based on their sense of humour
17:23:33 <ais523> that would be a bad captcha simply because it would be too guessable
17:23:45 <ais523> it could be brute-forced pretty quickly unless there were too many jokes
17:23:48 <ehird> 1. <joke from garfield>
17:23:57 <ehird> 4. <joke in bad taste>
17:24:02 <ehird> 5. Watermelon!! hahaha
17:24:07 <ehird> only '4' is accepted
17:24:18 <ehird> or if you're garfield.com 1. i guess
17:24:33 <ais523> I did laugh out loud when you wrote 5, although i'd probably choose 3 if those are the only options you gave
17:24:50 <ehird> ais523, 3 would be instant admin status
17:24:54 <ais523> most likely I'd decide not to look at your website anyway, though, which is probably what you wanted
17:25:08 <ehird> There are only 2 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
17:25:14 <ehird> ^^ the reason for our sentience
17:25:42 <ais523> ehird: that is a joke really, because of the way it alludes to a well-known joke
17:26:06 <ais523> sort of like "Why did the chicken cross the road?" is clearly not a joke out of context
17:26:24 <ehird> ais523, it's an anti-joke
17:26:40 <ais523> I thought it was a joke based on all the spinoffs that came up
17:26:52 <ais523> e.g. "Why did the turkey cross the road? Because it was the chicken's day off."
17:27:23 <ehird> ais523, I mean -- my joke is
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17:28:18 <ehird> ais523, The officially sanctioned answer to any silly joke is 'lampposts'
17:29:04 <Judofyr> ehird: Can I have a look at your URL-routing thing you made? (What happened to Magic?)
17:29:25 <ehird> Judofyr, 1. If I can find the code 2. I started coding even less useful things
17:30:08 <ais523> [Sat Apr 5 2008] [16:09:22] <RodgerTheGreat> ais523: I have the best knock knock joke ever- say "knock knock"
17:30:16 <ais523> that's a great example of an antijoke
17:31:14 <ais523> although it seems to be a different sort of antijoke from ehird's
17:31:25 <ehird> ais523, Knock knock
17:34:50 <ehird> KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK
17:35:34 <ais523> we're not in right now, try coming back later
17:37:41 * ais523 looked up "Why did the chicken cross the road?" on Wikipedia, and found that there's a city with a law prohibiting chickens from crossing roads
17:38:28 <ais523> it doesn't say, and the reference given is to a paper book so I can't check
17:38:45 <ehird> ais523, there should be a city with laws mirroring mathematical laws
17:39:17 <ehird> 'An object must be equal to itself.
17:39:20 <ehird> with appropriate penalties
17:39:20 <Slereah> The mechanical nirvana of Mechanus?
17:39:36 <Slereah> Old school Modrons were mostly geometrical shapes.
17:40:14 <ais523> most modrons are geometrical shapes
17:40:20 <ais523> because the ones which aren't are really rare
17:42:04 <ais523> OTOH, I've never met a modron, so this is from second-hand knowledge
17:44:20 <Slereah> But well, now they aren't shapes anymore.
17:46:20 <ais523> did they used to be more abstract, then?
17:46:32 <ais523> the only version of the modron I'm used to is the one updated to 3.5
17:46:55 <ais523> hmm... modrons are one of the few species which could sensibly have a beta
17:48:27 <Slereah> Well, the second ed were literaly shapes.
17:48:34 <ehird> ais523, Monkeys, humans?
17:48:39 <ehird> Joking, of course.
17:48:51 <Slereah> Like tetraedrons with hands and an eye
17:48:55 <ais523> I meant a beta for the individual animals
17:49:07 <ais523> I can imagine modrons being upgraded over time
17:49:18 <Slereah> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Modron-Dungeons%2BDragons.png
17:50:02 <ehird> ais523, aren't all animals upgraded over time?
17:50:19 <ais523> you don't download new firmware into individual people
17:50:39 <ais523> animals don't evolve whilst alive from a physical point of view, usually, evolution happens from one generation to the next
17:50:53 <ais523> it is possible to make a decent argument for people evolving psychologically, though
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17:55:44 <pikhq> There is some form of 'evolution' that occurs while animals are alive (though it's not evolution in the strictest sense).
17:56:05 <pikhq> Behavior changes readily during an animals' life, assuming a sufficiently complex nervous system.
18:00:55 <ais523> what about the case of asexual bacteria? It's hard to tell when one bacterium dies, because they reproduce by splitting and you can't tell which bacterium is 'new' and which one's the 'original'
18:02:31 <pikhq> Arguably, that involves evolution whilst alive.
18:02:49 <pikhq> (because mutations *do* occur during mitosis)
18:04:44 <Slereah> Hell, if they're unicellular, even a mutation without reproduction might have effects :o
18:05:28 <lament> evolution is just a theory
18:06:36 <Slereah> Damn your creationism. When I was answering, a gobling bashed my skull in D:
18:06:52 <ehird> lament, ditto with gravity
18:06:54 <ehird> this is very useful
18:08:12 <lament> sure, gravity is just a theory
18:09:25 <lament> all it does is simplify some astronomical calculations
18:10:00 <Slereah> Well, it actually was checked at ground level
18:10:11 <Slereah> That's how the gravitational constant is known, too.
18:12:47 <lament> well, that things fall down is obvious
18:12:51 <lament> that's what "down" means
18:13:15 <lament> to claim that instead of "down", things fall to where gravity attracts them is just a silly theory
18:13:42 <lament> and to claim that this applies to planets is even sillier, because planets could well be just painted on their respective celestial spheres
18:14:46 <Slereah> The gravity experiments aren't down, actually.
18:14:57 <Slereah> Because when they were done, the mass of the earth wasn't known.
18:15:09 <Slereah> It's done with two balls (lulz).
18:20:54 <lament> there's so much room for experimental error there
18:21:07 <lament> perhaps the attraction between the two balls was actually due to strong force!
18:23:01 <Slereah> Only if the balls were touching. And it would be gay.
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18:27:27 <Slereah_> http://www.superdeluxe.com/sd/contentDetail.do?id=D81F2344BF5AC7BB1226B76293E824B4B47D9B9CAC09B7A0
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18:50:49 <ehird> I was going to rm -rf /
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18:53:49 <ehird> can't guess the pw
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21:43:49 <oerjan> speed of light seems slow today
21:45:28 * oerjan wonders what will happen to the internet(s) if we colonize Mars etc. with no FTL communication found
21:46:00 <kwertii> it'll be just like 1986 all over again :)
21:46:14 <kwertii> daily Usenet drops.. relay mail packets
21:48:20 <ehird> mars eternal september
21:48:23 <oerjan> might even have to send information by spaceship...
21:48:30 <ehird> it's not as annoying
21:48:34 <ehird> because it's incredibly slow
21:48:54 <oerjan> if there isn't enough EM bandwidth
21:48:57 <kwertii> we'll also have amazing data compression by then
21:49:19 <kwertii> you expect a Mars colony in the next 10 years?
21:49:38 <oerjan> i mean there _is_ a definite bound to compression
21:49:43 <ehird> 'Magical Reduce One Byte Compression' algorithm:
21:50:04 <ehird> Delete the last byte of the file. Recompile the decoder with a line for that byte.
21:50:12 <lament> so we can expect up to 20min lag one-way but only when the planets are in opposition
21:50:24 <lament> and only 4 minutes in the best case
21:50:32 <kwertii> it seems to me there's an excellent chance of some kind of information theoretical breakthrough between now and the Mars colony which will shift paradigms, etc. and allow for far greater compression
21:51:08 <lament> even 20-minute one-way lag would be quite acceptable, say, in #esoteric
21:51:09 <kwertii> quantum compression! "This is probably what your file looked like before..."
21:51:12 <ehird> kwertii, extm txt spk
21:52:09 <oerjan> kwertii: well true AI could compress anything that isn't _actually_ random i guess - but there would be some information that _is_ truly random
21:52:45 <kwertii> I read something interesting the other day, that "random" is always a negative definition.. .i.e. it doesn't mean there is no pattern, just that nobody has yet found a pattern
21:52:54 <oerjan> census data, say, hard to imagine that not having a large random component
21:53:57 <oerjan> although by then an entire census of humanity would probably be considered a tiny amount of information
21:54:22 <kwertii> and there's a strong chance of FTL communications too. quantum entanglement looks promising
21:54:44 <kwertii> (* on the timeframe we're talking about)
21:55:19 <oerjan> in the current theoretical setup, quantum entanglement _very_ carefully disallows FTL communication
21:55:34 <kwertii> no doubt some brilliant young PhD student will find a way around it in 50 years or so
21:55:49 <kwertii> it always happens, sooner or later.. paradigms crumble bit by bit
21:56:01 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem
21:56:24 <oerjan> probably, but only assuming the universe actually _does_ support FTL communication somehow
21:56:46 * ehird personally is skeptical
21:56:51 <ehird> i mean, FTL stuff would just be TOO good
21:56:59 <ehird> when has the universe ever been good and convenient for us?
21:57:00 <kwertii> and that is only assuming that 1) the universe is real, and 2) there is an objective reality, that 3) doesn't ever change its laws.. none of which have any compelling evidence IMO :)
21:57:17 <lament> sounds like arts bullshit
21:57:29 <ehird> kwertii, 1) the universe is actually a pea, 2) my arse 3) potato
21:58:01 <kwertii> ehird: best keep that theory to yourself, or they'll lock you up
21:58:10 <Slereah> There's plenty of FTL thingamabob
21:58:18 <Slereah> But they are kinda hard to implement
21:58:51 <kwertii> ehird: not saying you're necessarily wrong now...
22:01:15 <kwertii> lament: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation is already trying to find a way around that theorem. Given the generally poorly understood nature of the overall state of quantum mechanics, i'm sure that by the time the Mars colony is ready, they'll have found something (if not that specifically)
22:01:33 <ehird> kwertii, you're far too optimistic
22:01:51 <kwertii> maybe you just think the Mars colony will be ready long before I do :)
22:02:00 <ehird> kwertii, well, when do you think
22:02:55 <kwertii> 200 years, minimum, assuming we don't all kill ourselves in a nuclear war or fry ourselves by depleting the atmosphere before then
22:04:11 <ehird> 200 years isn't enough to change the laws of the universe
22:05:16 <kwertii> I'm not suggesting that the laws of the universe will be changed; just that the current understanding of those laws is imperfect and will be refined
22:05:23 <ehird> Slereah, http://qntm.org/?f16
22:05:57 <Slereah> kwertii : What you're saying is that you know that the laws will allow it
22:05:59 <ehird> best non-narrative joke fiction that fits on a screen. ever.
22:06:45 <kwertii> Slereah: no; if I knew that I would patent a FTL communications system tomorrow and become a zillionaire
22:07:02 <ehird> kwertii, that has some problems
22:07:06 <ehird> though the system is fucked enough
22:07:32 <kwertii> Slereah: Just saying it seems probable, given the history of science periodically doing "impossible" things by figuring out that the current view of the "laws" of the universe was actually incorrect in some way
22:07:35 <Slereah> kwertii : You could know, but not know how!
22:07:50 <Slereah> There's plenty of impossible things that are still impossible
22:08:08 <ehird> <Slereah> There's plenty of impossible things that are still impossible
22:08:12 <Slereah> Not even on a statistical point of view.
22:08:17 <kwertii> right, no guarantee. I just said that it's "probable"
22:08:31 <Slereah> On what did you construct that probability?
22:08:38 <Slereah> What is the set of success and failure?
22:08:44 <kwertii> the history of paradigm shifts in science and physics in particular
22:08:48 <oerjan> hm actually patenting an FTL communications system _now_ might be a bad idea - it will be many years until it becomes very useful, and the patent might expire
22:09:06 <pikhq> Unless you're in the NSA.
22:09:07 <oerjan> except for space probes maybe
22:09:11 <Slereah> That can't change the laws of physics, kwertii
22:09:27 <oerjan> um how does FTL communications help the NSA?
22:09:41 <pikhq> (NSA patents are filed under gag order; they only take effect the moment someone *else* tries patenting the same thing)
22:09:55 <kwertii> Slereah: I'm saying rather that our current idea of the laws of physics is actually incorrect in some unknown way
22:10:13 <kwertii> Slereah: just as Newton's idea of the laws of physics was subtly incorrect, as later demonstrated by Einstein and QM
22:10:53 <ehird> <pikhq> (NSA patents are filed under gag order; they only take effect the moment someone *else* tries patenting the same thing)
22:11:24 <Slereah> It does not matter if it is correct or not.
22:11:28 <pikhq> Land of the free, and the home of the military effected superior to the civil power.
22:11:38 <Slereah> If you do not know the correct version and its applications, you can't predict the results.
22:11:50 <ehird> pikhq, AMERICA WOOO
22:13:42 <oerjan> ehird: but once they take effect, is the expiry time from when they were originally filed or from when they take effect?
22:13:46 <kwertii> Slereah: I'm not personally going to find whatever the flaw is, but it seems likely that SOMEbody will in the next few hundred years.
22:13:50 <pikhq> From when they take effect.
22:13:54 <ehird> oerjan, No idea -- but it's retarded.
22:14:19 <Slereah> kwertii : Still. You don't know if it can be done :o
22:14:30 <pikhq> FTL communications?
22:14:37 <oerjan> ok if it had been the other way it would have been more reasonable
22:14:37 * pikhq grabs a couple of wormholes
22:14:48 <pikhq> I call it the 'Stargate'.
22:14:50 <kwertii> Slereah: No. I don't. I said only that it seems "probable" :)
22:14:58 <Slereah> Probable implies probability.
22:15:20 <Slereah> People remember impossible thing becoming possible
22:15:30 <Slereah> Not impossible thing remaining impossible
22:15:48 <Slereah> That's why they have such a sunny optimism.
22:16:18 <oerjan> sometimes possible things become impossible though
22:16:33 <Slereah> Like Faster than light travel :o
22:16:38 <kwertii> Slereah: look at the history of physics.. a succession of paradigms overtaking one another.. the religious/mythological paradigm, the Aristotelian paradigm, the Newtonian paradigm, the "modern" relativity/QM paradigm.. they don't last forever, and each time previously impossible things become possible. Also, the rate at which new paradigms emerge is accelerating.
22:16:55 <Slereah> kwertii : Actually, it works both ways
22:17:00 * oerjan recently saw a link about something called 'laserwort'
22:17:18 * pikhq prefers gloomy optimism and sunny pessimism. :p
22:17:33 <oerjan> um not quite the modern version
22:18:11 <oerjan> anyway it was a near-perfect contraceptive known to the ancient greeks and romans, and they were stupid enough to let it go _extinct_
22:18:36 <oerjan> out of greed, probably
22:20:16 <oerjan> ah it's on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium
22:20:40 <Slereah> Well, lasers as contraceptive seems a little bit over the top!
22:20:52 <ehird> oerjan, ABORTION IS WRONG</catholic>
22:21:05 <pikhq> EVERY SPERM IS SACRED!
22:21:24 <kwertii> Slereah: did anything previously possible become impossible during previous physics paradigm shifts? interesting question. Perhaps stories of "magic" are vague cultural memories of previously-possible things that became impossible when Aristotelian physics was imposed...
22:21:28 <ehird> I WANT TO MISQUOTE A VERSE
22:21:39 <oerjan> it died out before christianity got very important though
22:21:51 <ehird> We used to be able to do magic!
22:21:55 <ehird> Then they came and oppressed us.
22:22:17 <Slereah> kwertii : Well, FTL travel for one thing.
22:22:42 <Slereah> The speed of light meant nothing before the 20th century.
22:24:25 <Slereah> Well, it was the speed *of light*
22:24:35 <Slereah> But other than that, of no physical importance.
22:29:16 <ehird> exec -o fortune -a
22:29:18 <ehird> sh: fortune: command not found
22:30:44 <kwertii> ehird: yep. Damn Greeks with their damn "logic"...
22:30:52 <ehird> Destiny is a good thing to accept when it's going your way. When it isn't,
22:30:52 <ehird> don't call it destiny; call it injustice, treachery, or simple bad luck.
22:30:52 <ehird> -- Joseph Heller, "God Knows"
22:32:09 <kwertii> and Aristotle teaches us how magnets and fire have souls
22:32:11 <ehird> One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell by Dickens
22:33:45 <Slereah> "I have to agree. I've always been an anarcho-socialist. There should be no government, and it should pay for everything."
22:35:04 <ehird> Going into politics is as fatal to a gentleman as going into a bordello
22:35:04 <ehird> is fatal to a virgin.
22:35:04 <ehird> -- H. L. Mencken, "A Carnival of Buncombe"
22:37:00 <Slereah> By "recursive" I mean "defined by recursion."
22:38:15 <Slereah> You can't use tact with a Congressman! A Congressman is a hog! You must take a stick and hit him on the snout!
22:38:40 <Slereah> My ancestors were Puritans from England. They arrived here in 1648 in the hope of finding greater restrictions than were permissible under English law at that time.
22:43:37 <ehird> Slereah, If those aren't in the fortune databases in Debian, they should be
22:44:03 <pikhq> There's a few. One needs to install them.
22:44:13 <ehird> pikhq, I have them all installed, I think, sans language packs
22:44:27 <ehird> fortunes-mario fortunes-bofh-excuses fortunes fortune-off
22:44:36 <ehird> everything but debian-hints and language ones i think
22:45:30 <Slereah> If you are a good economist, a virtuous economist, you are reborn as a physicist. But if you are an evil, wicked economist, you are reborn as a sociologist.
22:45:30 <Slereah> --An Indian economist, quoted by Paul Krugman
23:12:17 <ehird> http://pyside.blogspot.com/2008/03/interesting-facts-about-linux-file.html
23:12:22 <ehird> linux refcounts files
23:12:28 <ehird> we need a cheney gc for files
23:12:34 <ehird> copies all live files over..
23:46:39 <ehird> Channel is dead, here is a fortune:
23:46:39 <ehird> "If religion cannot restrain evil, it cannot claim effective power for good."
23:48:49 <GregorR> "I'm pro-choice, because fetuses are delicious."
23:50:23 <lament> i'd give my arguments for pro-life but the FBI might start worrying
23:51:21 <ehird> pro-life, pro-choice
23:51:49 <ehird> lament, come on...
23:52:44 <oerjan> lament: i'm sure you have a modest proposal
23:53:21 <lament> modest and wholly virtuous
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23:55:18 <ehird> wait -- am i missing something here
23:55:44 <oerjan> ehird: we shall swiftly remedy that
23:56:00 <ehird> oerjan, I think everyone in here is part of a hugh in-joke and I am totally dumb.
23:56:15 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
23:56:31 <GregorR> I suppose a baby taken to term can feed more than a fetus, but fetuses are SO TASTY.
23:56:32 <pikhq> I love that essay.
23:56:58 <ehird> oerjan, Yes -- but the original message does not seem to tie in.
23:57:16 <ehird> Was it satirical as well?
23:57:29 <ehird> GregorR, Do not put the fetus in the mouth
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23:57:33 <lament> GregorR: but there's other things you can do with a baby!
23:57:41 <pikhq> ehird: Do not put the baby in the essay.
23:57:41 <ehird> I am totally retarded.
23:57:46 <ehird> But my brain has been offline for all of today!
23:57:54 <GregorR> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Mouth
23:58:02 <ehird> GregorR, that was my joke
23:58:47 <pikhq> I'm afraid he beat you to it.
23:58:56 <ehird> pikhq, I meant -- my joke was based on that he owns that site.
23:59:12 <GregorR> Incidentally, I haven't had any new submissions in a while >_>
23:59:25 <ehird> GregorR, Do not put the baby in the cron job
23:59:32 <pikhq> DO NOT PUT THE BABY IN THE DO NOT PUT THE BABY SITE.