00:00:03 <SimonRC> http://www.catonmat.net/download/model_view_controller_song.mp3 is shorter
00:04:17 <ehird> SimonRC: That guy is hilariously ridiculous
00:04:47 <ehird> "I dreamt of studying at MIT. I applied, but they rejected my application! I am angry and confused. They never told me the reason."
00:04:56 <ehird> My mother says I am a special flower! How can they reject my beautiful soul?!
00:05:43 <ehird> http://reddit.com/info/6fi7f/comments/c03p9s7
00:05:45 <ehird> http://reddit.com/info/6fi7f/comments/c03p9t0
00:36:20 <Sgeo> ehird, what is it?
00:36:46 <ehird> Sgeo: What is ... what
00:37:01 <Sgeo> the perl code in the comment that you commented on
00:37:22 <ehird> Sgeo: Not perl code at all.
00:37:36 <ehird> It was the typical '<line noise> This perl program does X! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!'
00:37:49 <Sgeo> oh, I was thinking maybe it's obfuscated destructive program
00:38:21 <Sgeo> Can Perl be obfuscated to look like that?
00:39:04 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes, see Acme::Eyedrops
00:41:41 <Sgeo> How does it work?
00:51:06 <ehird> Sgeo: It uses Perl's varioous single-symbol constants
00:51:12 <ehird> and regexps with eval
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01:29:19 <Slereah> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-mathematica-1090.html
01:29:28 <Slereah> It might not be the best looking language of the world
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01:45:09 <Slereah> A dude is telling me he thinks APL isn't TC.
01:52:26 <RodgerTheGreat> uhm... does he have a reason, like unbounded storage representation? I mean, it's logically complete and has flow control...
01:53:20 <RodgerTheGreat> he's probably going with the usual "OH, well computers are ALL finite state machines, so they can't be TC and APL runs on computers" bullshit, though
01:54:19 <RodgerTheGreat> and I think it's possible to make that mathematica program less ugly, although I don't have mathematica 6 on hand to experiment
02:27:57 <SimonRC> Hmm, 02:26 is bedtime for me.
02:28:06 <SimonRC> I shall leave you with this 1-line Factor module that takes 60sec to compile:
02:28:09 <SimonRC> IN: testing.values USING: assocs kernel sequences ; TUPLE: asdf ; INSTANCE: asdf sequence M: asdf length drop 0 ; M: asdf nth 2drop f ;
02:55:12 <Slereah> ^z^p^x^y`````z``tky`xxi``z``tky``sb``t0y```z``t0y``v`p``tkyi``v`p``tky``xx``v``tky`p``t0y
02:55:24 <Slereah> Writing Ackerman is maddening.
02:57:10 <Slereah> Riddle : How come a perfectly functionning program gives me indentation errors on the python shell
02:59:38 <Sgeo> http://youtube.com/watch?v=BRG5VNNUq_E
03:02:06 * Sgeo posted the link before watching the video
03:02:19 <Slereah> I'll just reboot to der Linux.
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03:08:19 <Slereah> `(``s``bb``bs``b`bs``s``bc``b`bs``c``bc``b`bc``c``bb``bc``cb`tk``siii``c``bs``cb`tk``b`sb`t0``c``bs``b`bb``b`bs``c``bb``bs``cb`t0``c``bc``b`bv``cb`tki``s``bb``bs``b`bv``cb`tk``b`c``bb``sii``b`s``bv`tk``cb`t0
03:13:11 <Slereah> Well, A(0,0) gives me two.
03:13:19 <Slereah> This isn't a smashing success.
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04:03:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm really enjoying me new copy of "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!"
04:06:02 <Slereah> I should buy that Feynman book about quantum gravity
04:06:16 <Slereah> But I have so much shit I still didn't finish, or at least read thoroughly.
04:06:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm about halfway through G.E.B., and it's nice to have something to break it up now and then
04:09:28 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.amazon.com/Godel-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208660957&sr=8-1
04:09:35 <lament> surely you're joking is a way better book than GEB.
04:09:54 <RodgerTheGreat> dude, seriously- if you don't own this book, buy a used copy for a couple bucks on amazon- it's awesome
04:10:28 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: it's a good book, but I don't think it's better than GEB. GEB is fascinating and enjoyable to read in ways that few books are
04:10:45 <lament> i thought geb was pretty lame :)
04:10:59 <lament> feynman is amazing though
04:11:04 <RodgerTheGreat> the whole thing is an intricate, thoughtful web of insight and brain teasers
04:11:10 <Slereah> Right now, I'm saving up for Science without numbers :o
04:11:21 <Slereah> It's out of print, so it's a whole lot of money
04:11:28 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: yes, but it's so cheezy and lame and the insight is not very deep!
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04:13:23 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: I disagree with you, sir, but this is a battle of opinions
04:13:48 <Slereah> Does that mean that in the end, the winner is me?
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04:36:48 <oklopol> however hard you win, i always win one harder
04:37:53 <Slereah> But if I chose infinity, we win by the same amount.
04:38:58 <Slereah> But aleph 0 + 1 = aleph 0 :o
04:39:04 <Slereah> It has the same cardinality!
04:39:57 <oklopol> this is where i'd pin you down and start beating you
04:40:32 <Slereah> I'm aroused by that statement.
04:40:48 <Slereah> I hope this means what I think it means!
04:41:47 <oklopol> yes. you're a sick pervert
04:42:33 <oklopol> eval makes obfuscation too easu
04:43:14 <oklopol> eval usually evaluates code in whatever language you're using
04:44:34 <RodgerTheGreat> what would be *really* interesting would be if eval evaluated code in language *different* from the one you're using that also had an eval statement
04:46:32 <oklopol> eval evaluates code in the language you're coding in
04:46:39 <oklopol> it takes a string, and evaluates it
04:47:06 <oklopol> if not for scoping and such, you could usually take a random line in a program, and replace with eval "origina line"
04:47:50 <RodgerTheGreat> but the advantage is that eval can often take a string, so you can execute new code chunks at runtime. Eval is a common feature of interpreted languages
04:47:58 <oklopol> in {eval program} program is a string, it is considered a program source, which is then interpreted as code
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06:33:38 <oklohot> Slereah: the version you linked was meant to be short, this is a bit more readable http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-mathematica-378.html
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10:39:27 <oklopol> okay sk seems to work in nopol now
10:39:27 <oklopol> s="<. <:> <. <::> <. <:::> <: <: <:> <:::>> <: <::> <:::>>>>>>"
10:39:27 <oklopol> koed=s("""<: <: <: s k> k> <.......>>""")
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10:39:51 <oklopol> there's a fun list rewriting system that provides scoping without closures
10:40:19 <oklopol> basically, when substitution happens at depth n, it is quoted n times
10:40:35 <oklopol> where depth is the number of functions open in the right side's substitution recursion
10:42:30 <oklopol> <. a b> is a "function", it has special semantics when it is returned from a substitution
10:42:38 <oklopol> application is substitution basically, tree-rewriting
10:43:22 <oklopol> means just pattern matching arg on a and returning b with substitutions done
10:43:42 <oklopol> perhaps i should get on the negative lists now :|
10:45:34 <oklopol> if pattern matching fails, pattern-based dispatching can be done by calling functions with disjoin patterns with the arg
10:45:57 <oklopol> arg will only match one, all others are identity
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10:59:31 <oklopol> haha, the quoting system actually seems to make it impossible to to dynamic scoping at all
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15:16:14 <Slereah> Lambda expressions are hard to debug.
15:22:35 <Slereah> And so is everything else.
15:47:34 <Slereah> Forgot to double the combinator D:
15:55:00 <oklopol> well if it's any consolation, my nopol interp worked on the first attempt
15:55:15 <oklopol> except for syntax errors and a few trivial ones
15:55:28 <oklopol> it's probably quite a consolation
15:56:22 <Slereah> Damn you and your awesome skills.
15:57:22 <oklopol> but kinda lambda calculus too
15:57:47 <oklopol> <. a b> is a lambda, kinda
15:58:03 <oklopol> it means pattern match on a, return b with substitutions done
15:58:20 <oklopol> <: a b> calls lambda a with param b
15:58:32 <oklopol> if a isn't a lambda, or pattern matching fails, b is just returned
15:58:39 <oklopol> otherwise the result of the lambda is returned
15:58:59 <oklopol> i'm implementing negative lists soon, after that it might even get interesting
15:59:33 <oklopol> i did do something kinda fun for scoping
16:00:06 <oklopol> i achieve static scoping by quoting stuff in the right side of a lambda as many times as it's contained in a function there
16:00:39 <oklopol> <:> and <::> are just considered names08:00:48 <oklopol> if you can see how that's k, i'll continue
16:00:55 <oklopol> otherwise i'll either explain more or stop
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16:02:39 <oklopol> whhhell, that was kinda rude :)
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16:32:50 <ehird> oklopol: oh finally.
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17:33:57 <ehird_> oklopol: you're finally here, you've been disappeared for days
17:34:51 <olsner> oklopol: interpreter worked on the first attempt, eh? which language is it written in?
17:35:47 <ehird_> olsner: the oklotalk-- one?
17:35:58 <ehird_> actually, always python
17:36:07 <olsner> "well if it's any consolation, my nopol interp worked on the first attempt"
17:37:36 <ehird_> <Slereah>A dude is telling me he thinks APL isn't TC.
17:38:09 <ehird_> <Slereah>Riddle : How come a perfectly functionning program gives me indentation errors on the python shell
17:38:14 <ehird_> You need extra newlines if you do:
17:38:28 <ehird_> you need a newline between the blocks
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17:42:48 <Slereah_> I put newlines everywhere, and still does not work D:
17:43:55 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Lazy%20Bird%207.py
17:44:07 <Slereah_> The first problem is apparently line 285
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17:45:53 <ehird_> Slereah_: put newlines after each def/while/etc
17:45:59 <ehird_> def/while: two newlines
17:46:06 <ehird_> Slereah_: And <> is deprecated. Use !=
17:46:12 <ehird_> and instead of sys.stdout.write...
17:46:44 <Slereah_> Because of the newline/space with the print
17:47:54 <Slereah_> No amount of newlines seems to fix the problem
17:48:08 <Slereah_> I'll just get another interpreter.
17:48:19 <ehird_> Slereah_: Don't get another interpreter. that's silly.
17:48:42 <ehird_> Slereah_: and then your block is just 'print help'
17:49:20 <Slereah_> Well, I don't have that problem on Linux :o
17:49:49 <Slereah_> Or on the regular Python interpreter.
17:50:32 <ehird_> Slereah_: What is the error?
17:51:21 <Slereah_> "Inconsistent indentation detected!"
17:51:34 <ehird_> Slereah_: You are indenting with both tabs and spaces.
17:51:45 <ehird_> Slereah_: And you are. Python says so.
17:52:17 <ehird_> Slereah_: Good! Don't use tabs.
17:53:08 <Slereah_> Wait, it seems to convert my tabs to spaces
17:53:13 <ehird_> Slereah_: Python convention sez use spaces.
17:53:27 <Slereah_> Is there a big convert tabs to space buttons?
17:53:41 <ehird_> Depends on your editor. :-)
17:54:16 <ehird_> fn = 'MYPYTHONFILE'; f = open('MYPYTHONFILE').read().replace('\t', ' '); open('MYPYTHONFILE','w').write(f)
17:54:41 <Slereah_> I'm in favor of using the magic button.
17:54:47 <ehird_> Slereah_: That's a magic button.
17:54:53 <ehird_> Just replace mypythonfile with the file na,e.
17:54:55 <oklopol> olsner: it was my nopol interp, worked on the first attempt if you don't count trivial errors, but there were quite a lot of them
17:55:38 <ehird_> fn = 'MYPYTHONFILE'; f = open(fn).read().replace('\t', ' '); open(fn,'w').write(f)
17:55:38 <oklopol> and yes, it was python ofc
17:55:42 <ehird_> Slereah_: Now you just have to change the fn one
17:59:20 <Slereah_> "Unindent does not match any outer indentation level"
17:59:58 <Slereah_> I guess I'll just redo the indentation myself.
18:00:35 <Slereah_> Also the help file, that will be done.
18:01:51 <ehird_> Slereah_: Try adding some more blank lines. ;)
18:02:00 <Slereah_> Although I do also have other organs.
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18:08:09 <ehird_> ihope.. you haven't been here in a while
18:08:22 <ihope> I ought to come here more often.
18:11:17 <ihope> Nomics, and searching for people willing to discuss them.
18:12:46 <ehird_> oklopol: that's a good esolang idea. codify nomics
18:13:11 <oklopol> ehird_: did you read about nopol?
18:13:12 <ihope> http://nomic.info/perlnomic/, you mean?
18:13:29 <oklopol> negative lists aren't implemented yet, but enough is for it to be lc complete
18:13:45 <ehird_> oklopol: yes, <ehird_> oklopol: dude
18:14:14 <ihope> From the Agora Nomic ruleset: "A nomic ruleset is a set of explicit rules that provides means for itself to be altered arbitrarily, including changes to those rules that govern rule changes."
18:14:35 <ehird_> and properly balanced stuff
18:14:43 <ehird_> go back to < >< <>< > <> >
18:14:48 <oklopol> proper balancing is for not yet having negative lists
18:15:01 <ehird_> it would be far more awesome
18:15:25 <oklopol> atm, : and . are used for tagging lists with a name
18:15:38 <ehird_> oklopol: kind of violates the conceptual purity though doesn't it
18:15:42 <ehird_> analyze my character set
18:15:46 <oklopol> but i guess you could replace that with an arbitrary tree as the first element
18:15:54 <ehird_> balancing themselves out
18:16:54 <ihope> ehird_: what do you mean when you say "NOT AN ESOLANG"?
18:17:07 <oklopol> well, i would like to do something "cleverer" than encoding lc into tree rewriting
18:17:13 <ehird_> also, ihope, does it enforce the rules?
18:17:15 <oklopol> but as that isn't all that easy
18:38:54 <oklopol> it's always hard for me not to have my langauge be tc right away
18:42:05 <oklopol> because how could i ever do something not everyone is completely satisfied with.
18:45:11 <oklopol> not all rewriting rules make sense with tagging
18:45:18 <oklopol> also negative lists forget all about them
18:45:40 <oklopol> so they aren't really all that beautiful in the same sense as the lists themselves, and the parsing rules
18:45:48 <oklopol> which are of course genious
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19:32:58 <ehird> oklopol: i just wrote an API for dictionaries in python
19:33:14 <ehird> it uses http://ninjawords.com/!
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19:46:25 <ehird> oklopol: not interested? ;)
19:51:16 <ehird> oklopol: oh well, here it is http://rafb.net/p/qYWaAg73.html
19:51:21 <ehird> you can use it from the command line
19:51:25 <ehird> 'python ninjawords.py hello world bar'
19:51:30 <ehird> >>> import ninjawords
19:51:39 <ehird> >>> ninjawords.define('hello', 'world', 'bar')
19:51:50 <ehird> ninjawords.define_one('foo') spares you the dictionary
19:52:03 <ehird> you can unicode()/str() words and entries
19:52:08 <ehird> and get the word name .word
19:52:10 <ehird> the entries .entries
19:52:15 <ehird> or the link to wiktionary if applicable .link
19:52:23 <ehird> the entries have .definition (the definition text)
19:52:27 <ehird> and .examples (None or the examples text)
19:53:10 <SimonRC> nice screen-scraping :rolleyes:
19:57:15 <ehird> nothing wrong with that, though
19:57:20 <ehird> ninjawords itself scrapes from wikiquote
19:58:18 <ehird> i just made the API less horrific
19:58:20 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/ShO6Qb79.html
19:58:26 <ehird> now define() doesn't return a silly dictionary
19:58:38 <ehird> define('hello','world','abc') => [defn of hello,defn of world,defn of abc]
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20:02:28 <Slereah_> [21:01] <Slereah_> I'm drinking some juice out of a Klein bottle.
20:02:28 <Slereah_> [21:01] <Slereah_> How awesome is this?
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20:11:03 <ihope> A nomic game over IRC could be interesting.
20:11:53 <ihope> We could make it quite fast-paced if we wanted to. Propose a rule change and five minutes later, it's either passed or failed.
20:17:57 <ihope> Anyone interested?
20:18:06 <ehird> Sounds interesting.
20:18:45 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/SxwM0e29.html ninjawords api v34348234
20:23:08 <pikhq> Don't remember a specific example ATM.
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21:31:52 <ehird> made the system allow >65336 bytes outputs (this is the limit of linux pipe) for this this challenge. thanks yshl for investigating.
21:31:55 <ehird> that challenge is mine
21:32:01 <ehird> i made shinh fix golf! yay
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23:13:17 * SimonRC goes to bed. ("Brazil thinks you're cute.")
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23:38:36 <ehird> SimonRC: Well, the USA thinks you're fat.
23:40:55 <oerjan> darn, then he must be enormous
23:41:18 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | Made of fluffy bell rings and envelope tings..
23:41:27 <ehird> No, I don't know what a ting is.
23:42:23 * oerjan thought that was a quote but it's not googlelicious