00:17:28 <ihope> Hmm, who's this inf-anf-oh?
00:20:12 <ehird> ihope: @join-er-ate it.
00:20:39 <inf-anf-oh> Number of players not an integer greater than one.
00:20:45 <inf-anf-oh> Starting game with players: ehird and ihope.
00:20:51 <ehird> ihope: It's infinite-D tic tac toe
00:21:02 <ehird> ihope: Basically, any finite length list of co-ords is cyclec.
00:21:10 <ehird> ihope: And you have two speshul syntaxes:
00:21:17 <ehird> <a b c> range with c as step
00:21:25 <ehird> 'for each thing named a in b'
00:21:45 <ehird> {5 1 5 2 5 3 .. 5 50 5 1}
00:22:08 <ehird> ihope: er, when I said tic tac toe
00:22:10 <ehird> I meant five in a row
00:23:11 <ihope> @move [a <1 50> [b <1 50> {a b}]]
00:23:40 <ehird> i'm not actually doing 5 in a row here
00:23:54 <ihope> I have no idea. :-P
00:25:02 <ehird> ihope: It's oklopol's btw.
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00:52:51 <ehird> UnrelatedToQaz: BECOME QAZ
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00:53:31 <UnrelatedToQaz> Shouldn't the title be something like "(international hub) for (esoteric (programming languages))"?
00:53:40 <ehird> UnrelatedToQaz: Probably.
00:53:48 <ehird> UnrelatedToQaz: Also, Qaz is used on one place: wikipedia
00:54:16 <ehird> UnrelatedToQaz: Are you the wikipedia qaz?
00:54:36 <ehird> UnrelatedToQaz: Apart from making a joke out of your nick.
00:55:19 -!- ehird has changed nick to tozogt.
00:55:29 <tozogt> UnrelatedToQaz: This magic nickname will help me get qaz!
00:55:35 <tozogt> (ehird has already claimed too many nicks in #freenode)
00:56:43 -!- tozogt has changed nick to Qaz.
00:57:10 <Qaz> HAHAHAHAAHAHHAHA
00:57:11 <Qaz> IT IS MINE
00:57:18 <Qaz> I WOULD USE THIS EVERYWHERE IF A WIKIPEDIA-FAG HADN'T TAKEN IT
00:57:31 <Qaz> UnrelatedToQaz: Yes, but it was registered.
00:58:12 <Qaz> ok, the wp guy is the _only_ guy using Qaz I can find
00:58:15 <Qaz> unfortunately, I kinda like WP.
00:58:19 <Qaz> so I can't use this nick everywhere
00:58:28 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has set topic: (international hub) for (esoteric (programming languages)) ^D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric ^D^D.
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01:06:14 <ehird> UnrelatedToQaz: dunno?
01:06:40 <UnrelatedToQaz> ehird: you're the one who changed the topic to show that this thread is unrelated to e
01:06:49 <ehird> UnrelatedToQaz: :)
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02:00:50 <ihope> Hmm. The phrase "international hub for esoteric programming languages" is really just the word "hub" with "international" and "for esoteric programming languages" tacked on. In the phrase "for esoteric programming languages", you have the indicator thingy, "for", followed by "esoteric programming languages", which is "esoteric" and "programming" tacked onto "languages".
02:00:57 * ihope congratulates himself
02:01:41 <ihope> If you were to reduce that phrase fully, you'd have "hub"; expand it a bit and you get "international hub for languages", then "international hub for programming languages", then "international hub for esoteric programming languages".
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02:13:08 <oklopol> (international ((esoteric (programming language)) hub)) is the whole description tree
02:13:19 <oklopol> (a b) is b, with a as a descriptor
02:13:39 <oklopol> you can always drop a, because (a b) is always, b, and a is just additional information.
03:03:53 <ihope> (international hub [for (esoteric (programming languages))])
03:05:36 <ihope> Or maybe better: hub [for (languages programming esoteric)] international
03:07:48 <ihope> [This (is [a sentence])]. [You (like do ([this sentence] [of mine]))]?
03:09:33 <oklopol> for is not important there
03:09:58 <oklopol> it is just another way to attach information to "international hub"
03:10:35 <oklopol> in this case just "international esoteric programming language hub" is unambiguous enough
03:11:06 <oklopol> and if it weren't, using that structure for a sentence with for is a bit too englishish to be a formalization
03:11:11 <ihope> But the "for" still exists.
03:11:25 <ihope> I'm not after formalization; I'm after description. Or something.
03:11:43 <oklopol> i thought you were breaking it down
03:11:53 <oklopol> "for" doesn't carry meaning there
03:12:27 <oklopol> (well technically it does, but not important here)
03:12:49 <ihope> I'm breaking it down, kind of detailing all the grammatical constructs. "For" is part of a grammatical construct.
03:13:26 <oklopol> (This (is [a sentence])]. [You (like do ([this sentence] [of mine]))] can you help me with the meanings of () and []?
03:15:15 <ihope> Well, () is just used for grouping things together into phrases. "Phrase1 phrase2" functions as phrase1 with phrase2 somehow modifying it. [Phrase1 phrase2] is some other construct that behaves as neither phrase1 nor phrase2; maybe phrase1 is always an "indicator word" like "for" and phrase2 is always something of meaning.
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06:39:02 <Slereah> Would you have any sort of idea as of why, with my reinstallation of windows and the NVIDIA pilot, I'm currently in 16 colors, without the possibility to go higher
06:39:27 <Slereah> I had more colors *before* installing the pilot, for some reason
06:41:30 <Slereah> I hate reinstalling windows.
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08:02:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, WHAT? was that highlight for?
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11:37:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: it was about playing inf-anf-oh
11:38:58 <oklopol> the great thing about this channel is i can explain anything as many times as i like :D
11:41:48 <oklopol> well you gotta join, don't you?
11:44:25 <oklopol> i'm not sure if anyone has given any thought to this at all, but as i've explained a few times, the row of 5 doesn't need to be actually adjacent pieces (so where for each element L of the distance vector L = 0 | L = -1 | L = 1), which constraint 2d5iar has
11:44:49 <oklopol> it is automatically "next to" infinity pieces
11:45:04 <oklopol> so i'm pretty sure the game is trivial.
11:45:23 <AnMaster> you mean scrabble or whatever it is called in English?
11:45:25 <oklopol> there is an infinite-dimensional space
11:45:44 <oklopol> and you can add "pieces", meaning you can color one of these points to your color each turn
11:45:55 <AnMaster> oh, tic-tac-toe or whatever that name is in English?
11:46:22 <oklopol> i think infinite dimensional 5iar might be analogous to 5iar played on the complex plane
11:46:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: tic-tac-toe, except infinite grid and 5 in a row instead of 3
11:46:57 <AnMaster> and can you overwrite other ppl?
11:47:25 <oklopol> othello has nothing to do with rows
11:47:39 <AnMaster> hm? true, you convert in lines iirc
11:47:53 <oklopol> well the surrounding rules have to do with rows
11:47:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway what about complex number plane what on earth has that got to do tic-tac-toe?
11:48:02 <oklopol> but the *goal* has nothing to do with rows
11:48:19 <AnMaster> (so esoteric involving complex numbers with a very simple game like that, hehehe)
11:49:15 <AnMaster> aye, a Cartesian coordinate system
11:49:42 <oklopol> and a 5-in-a-row is a 5-tuple (a,b,c,d,e) of pieces of your color where for some (n!=(0,0) and for each i in n: i is one of (-1,0,1)), a+4n = b+3n = c+2n = d+n = e
11:50:25 <oklopol> well 2d vector really, addition is mapped over axis ofc
11:50:50 <oklopol> are you asking the reason for the formalization?
11:51:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, well no this *is* #esoteric
11:51:10 <oklopol> the formalization is necessary
11:51:21 <oklopol> because now it's trivial to explain how to play on the real plane
11:51:42 <oklopol> you can insert a piece *anywhere* on the plane
11:52:29 <oklopol> and a 5-in-a-row is what it is in a normal 5iar, except n can be *any* 2-tuple
11:52:51 <oklopol> if (0,0) was allowed, you'd win on the first turn
11:53:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway what about (inf,inf)?
11:53:03 <oklopol> because (a,a,a,a,a) is a 5-in-a-row then
11:53:40 <oklopol> well, i did specify it's just *reals*
11:54:07 <oklopol> in reality, you have to have some "explanation scheme" for the reals you can actually use
11:54:14 <oklopol> because you cannot explain all reals
11:54:43 <AnMaster> anyway irrational numbers will be fun in this
11:55:13 <oklopol> that's a bit too restrictive
11:55:33 <oklopol> probably some clever number type, dunno
11:56:21 <oklopol> i think playing 5iar on a 1-d real range is less restrictive than my current infinite dimensional one, even if you just have cyclic stuff.
11:56:34 <AnMaster> A is Ackermann's function, G is Graham's number
11:57:36 <AnMaster> good luck making a program that can handle that
11:58:12 <AnMaster> float wouldn't work anyway, because you could always insert at smaller resolution than double or whatever can handle
11:58:58 <oklopol> if it has a way to calculate A and G, you can just store the calculation
11:59:14 <oklopol> if it doesn't, there's no way you insert that
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12:07:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, it would be a too huge number to write out in this universe
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12:11:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> A is Ackermann's function, G is Graham's number
12:11:54 <AnMaster> Slereah_, oklopol is planning(?) some kind of 5-in-a-row on the real number plane
12:15:21 <Slereah_> G alone is too big to write already.
12:21:47 <AnMaster> Slereah_, something like tic-tac-toe
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12:29:55 <Slereah_> Wouldn't a Tic Tac Toe on the real plane be infinitely long?
12:30:41 <Slereah_> Since you can't exhaust the way to put 5, in a row
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15:33:47 <ihope> Hmm, it's like a five-in-a-row in infinite-dimensional space, isn't it?
15:34:57 <Slereah_> The word "plane" would make you think not
15:35:59 <Slereah_> It would sound like "Put a cross anywhere on a map"
15:36:23 <Slereah_> And since you can't exhaust any row, it would be pretty easy to win. Or lose.
15:36:45 <Slereah_> But if it's in a discrete infinite dimensional space, who knows.
15:37:14 <Slereah_> It should also prolly be of finite extent, otherwise you fall into the same problem again
15:37:54 <Slereah_> Unless you need to have a row uninterrupted by the other guy
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15:54:26 <Slereah_> Would you like to make some cool money, ehird?
15:54:36 <ehird> Do you want help with php maila?
15:54:52 <ehird> (Oh lord, have we got _another_ #esoteric meme?)
15:55:00 <Slereah_> Where you will need to hack into a bakery, to get some cake.
15:55:13 <Slereah_> Well, it's not everyday we get a good laugh like this!
15:55:16 <ehird> Slereah_: I am very experience with hack.
15:55:25 <ehird> What is the specification?
15:55:40 <ais523> which bit of that is the new meme?
15:55:47 <ehird> ais523: all of it!
15:55:48 <ais523> Slereah_ and the delicious cake?
15:56:00 <ehird> ais523: mikemorg came in here asking for hackers to do 'buziness'
15:56:05 <ehird> ais523: he was from nigeria, apparently
15:56:10 <ehird> but yeah, he wanted me to hack a bank or something
15:56:17 <ehird> oh, and he kept asking for help with 'php maila'
15:56:24 <ehird> presumably an anonymous mailing script written in php.
15:56:27 <Slereah_> I don't want to be racist, but it's hard with all those Nigerian conmen.
15:58:10 <ehird> 07:33:47 <ihope> Hmm, it's like a five-in-a-row in infinite-dimensional space, isn't it?
15:59:50 <Slereah_> Is it on the real plane and all as advertised?
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16:05:05 <ehird> Factor is interesting
16:05:13 <ehird> esp. how well it does unicode
16:32:52 <ehird> ais523: #rootnomic? Can't /invite, I don't have ops.
17:04:30 <ehird> TODAY, CHILDREN: How to make python code make no sense at al
17:04:33 <ehird> True, False = False, True
17:07:07 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: in smalltalk you can do:
17:07:09 <ehird> true become: false
17:07:13 <ehird> and *every* true value becomes false
17:07:17 <ehird> the true object literally morphs into false
17:07:22 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: Then, it promptly crashes.
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17:07:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I like Intercal's "PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM ABSTAINING", but that's kindof a different idea
17:08:07 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: and reversible, too
17:09:06 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: no
17:09:11 <ehird> #t is a special reader form
17:09:16 <ais523> well, in INTERCAL, it's possible to write DO #2 <- #1
17:09:17 <ehird> besides it would be set!
17:09:38 <RodgerTheGreat> stdin::0: define: bad syntax at: #t in: (define #t #f)
17:09:39 <ais523> but C-INTERCAL requires a compiler switch to let you do that, it's in a sort of safe mode by default where you can't change constants
17:09:46 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: what scheme do you use?
17:10:24 <RodgerTheGreat> "Welcome to MzScheme v372 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2007 PLT Scheme Inc."
17:10:57 <ehird> I was thinking maybe guile or somethign else horrid
17:11:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I like the DrScheme package- it has a great OSX version, and I have it installed on my linux machine, too
17:18:55 * SimonRC listens to ais523's radio interview
17:19:17 <ais523> it wasn't all that interesting, really, but it wasn't a disaster
17:19:27 <ehird> SimonRC: oooh what
17:19:40 <ehird> also, what I focused #esoteric for - anyone here like http://www.pixelcomic.net/?
17:19:48 <ehird> it's very silly, it sounds like something i would write
17:19:53 <ais523> wow, I didn't realise that link was still available
17:19:54 <ehird> the uppercase starts to hurt your eyes after a while htough
17:20:23 <SimonRC> http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_7170000/newsid_7179500?redirect=7179544.stm&news=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&bbram=1&nbwm=1
17:20:36 <ehird> i bet it was a gripping interview
17:20:45 <ehird> 'so, you found the smallest turing machine in wolframs notation!'
17:20:57 <ehird> 'how do you think this will effect every day life?'
17:21:02 <ehird> 'um...er....uh...'
17:21:22 <SimonRC> I recall that the proof was a bit contraversial.
17:21:46 <ehird> SimonRC: it was, but, by about 3 people.
17:22:05 <SimonRC> they didn't like the required pre-processing
17:22:26 <ehird> yes. but they're silly
17:22:35 <ehird> anyway, how on earth do you make the wolfram proof a radio interview?
17:22:39 <ehird> i just can't see it
17:22:41 <ehird> [can't listen atm]
17:23:11 <SimonRC> ais523: BTW, how constructive is your proof?
17:23:48 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird`.
17:23:49 <ihope> I think it's about as constructive as they get; I'm not sure.
17:23:55 -!- ehird` has changed nick to ehird.
17:24:07 <ais523> SimonRC: very constructive
17:24:20 <ais523> only the construction is infinitely long
17:26:47 <SimonRC> I figured out the command finally
17:26:55 <ehird> SimonRC: you do know we have public logs
17:27:16 <SimonRC> ehird: yeah, but I have logs with 1-second accuracy *and* logs of the privmsgs
17:27:43 <SimonRC> accept or deny as you wish
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17:36:07 <ehird> Fucking hell SimonRC.
17:38:31 <SimonRC> oh, it seems to be auto-repeating
17:39:42 <ehird> FUCK YOU WITH A RAKE SIMONRC
17:39:57 <SimonRC> right, I think they should be gone now
17:40:48 * SimonRC guesses that dcc sends pop up a modal dialog for ehird.
17:41:53 <SimonRC> but I can only abort one send at a time
17:42:09 <SimonRC> and that immediately causes the following one to be started
17:44:31 <ais523> so, what happened? SimonRC dcc'd a lot of information to ehird and couldn't stop it?
17:47:58 <ehird> ASJHKJDFHAJLSDFHAKSDJFASDF
17:48:02 <ehird> MY MOUSE IS WORKING CRAP :\
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17:55:31 <SimonRC> what order are the bytes of a 4-byte x86 word?
17:55:50 <SimonRC> big-, little-, or middle-endian?
17:56:06 <SimonRC> for some reason I was suspecting that they were middle-
17:56:09 <ais523> I'm not completely certain, but I think that's right
17:56:24 <ais523> if you look at them with a debugger, though, they often look middle-endian
17:56:24 <SimonRC> I'm doing some low-level stuff
17:56:33 <ais523> because it tries to convert little-endian to big-endian for display
17:56:39 <ais523> but does it at the 32-bit level
18:25:25 <ehird> ais523: you use ubuntu, which is based on debian. so, is there an easy way to get ff3rc1?
18:25:28 <ehird> just wondering if you knew
18:25:39 <ais523> ehird: yes, wait for them to package it
18:25:52 <ehird> ais523: um, no. i'm on debian stable. You can see the problem here.
18:26:00 <ais523> ironically, at the time RC1 came out, the Ubuntu developers responsible were at a conference or something like that
18:26:13 <ais523> ehird: you'd have to grab a .deb and install it manually
18:26:19 <ehird> ais523: I can't find one :-P
18:26:25 <ais523> either that, or recompile from source in /usr/local
18:26:43 <ais523> and the reason you can't find one is because the responisble devs were at a conference
18:26:47 <ais523> no doubt they'll package it soon
18:27:24 <ehird> ais523: I can't use an ubuntu deb.
18:31:30 <ais523> what, not even an ubuntu source package?
18:31:44 <ais523> they should recompile on debian just as easily as they do on ubuntu
18:34:03 <ais523> ehird: BTW, what do you think of my latest Mad Scientist proposal?
18:34:13 <ais523> it looks really game-changing, but is actually a NOP
18:34:20 <ehird> ais523: it shouldn't, because they have different deps.
18:34:46 <ehird> ais523: and how is that a nop?
18:35:04 <ais523> ehird: it's impossible to define a win condition unless the rule doing so has a power of at least 2
18:35:08 <ais523> and I said this in the wrong channel
18:35:13 <ais523> I thought I was in #ircnomic
18:35:25 <ehird> ais523: oooooooooh
18:35:28 <ehird> get the monster rule to power 2!!!
18:35:31 <ehird> and get much winnies
18:36:16 <ais523> ehird: forcible move of thread to #ircnomic
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18:48:02 <ehird> We asked the oracle, “What would life be like without THE MONSTER?” ...and the oracle responded: “asdf”
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19:31:35 <Sgeo> http://www.2meta.com/april-fools/1991/Unix-C-Hoax.html
19:32:19 <ehird> that's like as old as 1991! ...wait
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23:07:28 <SimonRC> what part of "zzzzzzzzzzz" don't you understand?
23:07:44 <SimonRC> It means I'm going to bed.
23:07:51 <ais523> I'm slightly dubious on the eigthth too
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23:17:54 <ehird> ais523: personally the 7th made me suspicious
23:18:26 <ais523> why, is it really a different Unicode character disguised as a z?
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23:52:51 <ehird> ais523: perlnomic is a turtle
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