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00:31:01 <augur> but i dont know about the [] notation
00:31:07 <augur> maybe something else
00:31:17 <augur> like.. `a or something?
00:32:23 <augur> for the special keywords in the reactions
00:32:53 <oklopol> well they were the port syntax
00:33:06 <augur> well lets not call them ports, thats a weird name :P
00:33:08 <oklopol> i guess you could just have them in a preset var
00:33:38 <augur> what i think we should do is something like ` or @
00:33:49 <augur> @ is good because its for the arguments
00:34:32 <augur> ofcourse, destructuring: @[x,y] -> ![y,x]
00:35:12 <augur> so multiple return variables instead of just one
00:35:57 <oklopol> @ could just mean it's the upper level var
00:36:28 <oklopol> well yeah, the thingie outside the function body
00:36:42 <augur> ahm, i dont know if ![y,x] would work, but for inputs it'd work as pattern matching
00:37:54 <oklopol> this would be the 100% reactional way to do functions
00:38:03 <oklopol> but it doesn't let you add math support
00:38:40 <augur> sure, math support would be simple
00:38:55 <oklopol> (@ -> !) -> foo, where @ and ! are special vars with which you could do foo 5 == 5
00:39:12 <oklopol> because @ would be what foo is applied to, and ! the return
00:39:32 <oklopol> but, you could simultaneously do global changes with @ and ! accessing the upper level
00:39:36 <augur> eh well i think we'd need to go over this in a bit more detail
00:39:39 <augur> gimme a few for that
00:39:40 <oklopol> although you only need one char for that tbh
00:40:00 <oklopol> first of all we just need @, a var prefix meaning "upper context"
00:40:08 <oklopol> upper context -> upper context;
00:40:18 <oklopol> (inner context -> inner context) -> upper context;
00:42:07 <oklopol> that was just an explanation of inner / outer context
00:42:31 <oklopol> so, usually, inside a function body, all variables are local
00:42:40 <oklopol> @ takes them off the upper context
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00:46:24 <augur> ok so heres how i envision it, right
00:46:33 <augur> you define some function
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00:48:02 <augur> eh no.. sorry, now that im thinking about it i cant think of a way to do it without defining args seperate from other parts
00:48:21 <augur> i mean, with that, it's fine
00:49:07 <augur> foo = @(a,b,c): a+b+c -> !
00:49:42 <augur> but you'd need to do it that way because you need to be able to map input values to the function to their respective parts
00:49:53 <oklopol> foo = ([a,b,c] = @; a+b+c -> @) in my way
00:50:03 <oklopol> now you can use "foo [5,4,3]"
00:50:22 <augur> well [a,b,c] = @ wouldnt work but
00:50:59 <oklopol> except it's not pushed in the reaction list
00:51:02 <augur> ok then we can just do it like this
00:53:10 <augur> n*(fac n-1) -> ! )
00:53:16 <augur> hows that for the factorial?
00:53:52 <oklopol> except still, you can use the same char for both output and input
00:53:52 <augur> fac n -> blah being shorthand for (n -> fac) -> blah
00:54:13 <augur> should we do that? same char?
00:54:28 <oklopol> if we do, then we can do @var = upper var
00:54:38 <augur> what does that mean??
00:54:44 <augur> tusho: its language design!
00:54:52 <oklopol> augur: look-up from outside the function
00:55:00 <oklopol> tusho: i already did this morning
00:55:09 <oklopol> except the changes being made now
00:55:26 <oklopol> you can implement those before they're fully decided on!
00:56:26 <augur> i dont understand, what do you mean look-up from outside the function?
00:57:24 <augur> eh.. no. you mean the get to variables outside the body of the function??
00:57:36 <augur> no, its unnecessary. we can just use lexical scoping
00:57:41 <oklopol> well yeah, look-up from outside the function
00:58:10 <oklopol> because there's no way to declare a var
00:58:17 <augur> we dont need to declare
00:58:30 <augur> variables are just lexical scope
00:58:59 <oklopol> okay, so on right side, inner, on left side, upper?
00:59:35 <oklopol> func = (x -> x); <<< left = outer, right = inner
00:59:57 <augur> hm.. no i see your point actually
01:00:19 <augur> let me think about this for a second
01:00:21 <oklopol> it's mostly a problem when setting a bar
01:00:26 <augur> because scheme has lexical scope and doesnt have this issue. :P
01:00:31 <oklopol> you want to be able to set a var in both upper and inner
01:00:50 <oklopol> because upper is the pure, reactional way, which we're just making a syntactic convenience over with @
01:00:56 <tusho> augur: because it seperates definition and setting
01:00:58 <tusho> that's what you should do
01:01:01 <tusho> seperate definition and setting.
01:01:14 <oklopol> yeah, i did the =/-> separation with oklotalk
01:01:27 <oklopol> pretty much the same thing for this same scoping issue
01:01:31 <augur> if a variable is located in a higher environment, e.g. the environment the reaction was defined, then it refers to that variable
01:01:50 <oklopol> tusho: that's not what we should do
01:02:30 <oklopol> augur: yeah, so i suggest @ for outer, because it's not used much, and it's semantically nice if it exists with the @ syntax thing for defining "functions"
01:03:10 <oklopol> tusho: variables can be used before they're made, so definition/setting is hard to separate
01:03:19 <augur> foo 10 // error: y is undefined
01:03:22 <tusho> oklopol: thats' ok.
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01:03:57 <oklopol> augur: for look-up, that's okay, the issue is with setting
01:04:30 <augur> you want to set variables outside of scope that are not already defined?
01:04:37 <augur> i would say, not allowed. :)
01:04:58 <oklopol> but i don't want to set the outer scope variables that are already defined automatically in the inner scope
01:05:41 <augur> i disagree, i'd say it should. (3 -> x) is defined in the environment where x is also defined
01:05:54 <augur> so the x inside (3 -> x) should refer to the x in that environment
01:06:46 <oklopol> except *definitions* have scope
01:06:57 <augur> what do you mean definitions have scope?
01:07:13 <oklopol> if you declare a var in an inner scope, it doesn't exist in the outer one
01:07:48 <oklopol> if a variable is set, it's global in all inner scopes
01:07:56 <oklopol> that's essentially global.
01:08:05 <oklopol> all the same drawbacks afaict
01:08:08 <augur> give me code examples
01:08:12 <augur> i dont see what you mean
01:08:45 <oklopol> x will always refer to that x in any inner scope
01:09:07 <augur> foo = ( ... x ... )
01:09:29 <oklopol> why do you keep asking what an inner scope is?
01:09:44 <augur> because your use is kind of odd. :P
01:10:01 <augur> yes, that x is the original x
01:10:10 <augur> so inside foo, at this point, x == 5
01:10:18 <oklopol> "x will always refer to that x in any inner scope" is recursive in that you can have nested inner scopes
01:10:27 <oklopol> so you're polluting the namespace for all the inner dudes
01:10:42 <augur> its just lexical scope.
01:10:43 <oklopol> even though you rarely actually set upper scope vars
01:11:04 <oklopol> you usually just read them
01:11:18 <augur> sure, but theres no way really to get around that
01:11:45 <oklopol> but this is really just the def/set difference problem tusho mentioned ages ago, and i solved much before that
01:12:23 <oklopol> i should start doing my stuff
01:12:27 <tusho> oklopol: FIREFOX 3 IS AWESOME
01:12:36 <augur> you'd need to have @x in the definition of foo in order to access the higher x
01:12:45 <augur> which i think is silly
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01:15:30 <oklopol> anyway, so about the @ thing
01:15:33 <oklopol> func = (@ * 5 -> @); func arg -> res
01:15:37 <oklopol> inXXX = arg; func = (inXXX * 5 -> outXXX); res = outXXX;
01:15:53 <oklopol> basically, that functions are just syntax for these kinds of dummy vars
01:16:14 <oklopol> well, @inXXX / @outXXX is my suggestion, still
01:16:43 <oklopol> it's not like it takes more to type, and it's conceptually nice given that semantics for @
01:17:45 <oklopol> that is still not that pure, because you have to choose how to use the function @ creation
01:18:08 <oklopol> also, you just need one dummy now that i come to think of it
01:18:28 <oklopol> s/((out)|(in))XXX/dummyXXX
01:18:39 <oklopol> (XXX is some unique number)
01:19:02 <oklopol> i wonder if i'm online atm
01:19:49 <tusho> oklopol: yes you are
01:22:08 <oklopol> also if you have a line containing just "function" mean "merge function's reaction list with current scope's"
01:22:16 <augur> yeah, function syntax is just sugar for reaction creation using dummy variables
01:22:20 <oklopol> then you can use that for simultaneous reaction additions
01:23:12 <augur> oklopol, i suggest we provide further sugar, actually. i'd rather foo n = blah rather than foo = ( @ -> n ... blah )
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01:24:31 <oklopol> 5 -> x; (x - 1 -> x; x -> y) y -> output
01:24:37 <tusho> augur: oklopol, i suggest we provide further sugar, actually. i'd rather foo n = blah rather than foo = ( @ -> n ... blah )
01:25:35 <augur> well im going to have it in my implementation. :p
01:25:45 <oklopol> letting you *use* "func n" is pretty crucial, and essential for pureness considering we have mathematical functions already
01:26:14 <augur> well in okloreact you dont have to have it but i'm going to have it in my implementation. :p
01:26:16 <oklopol> defining it has no need to be... well haskell
01:27:00 <augur> haskell is just lisp with optional parens. :)
01:27:28 <augur> fac n? really just (fac n)
01:27:43 <augur> which looks exactly like (fac (fac n))
01:28:06 <tusho> especially re: currying
01:28:13 <tusho> (a b c) is not ((a b) c) in lisp
01:28:14 <augur> but i like to pretend i'm not ;)
01:28:22 <oklopol> tusho: don't assume stupidity, do like me and agree :|
01:28:31 <augur> i know, tusho, im being silly
01:28:33 <tusho> oklopol: I always assume stupidity. :D
01:28:52 <oklopol> tusho: indeed you do, and often you're right, but please try and save it for the noobs :D
01:29:00 <oklopol> well i guess augur is a bit of a noob
01:29:54 <augur> ::sucks oklopols pointed finger:: =d
01:30:20 <oklopol> ...right, i'm already nekkid
01:30:26 <augur> ::sits on oklopols lap::
01:30:36 <Slereah> What is this, Alan Turing's house?
01:30:45 <oklopol> oh god i'm so jacking off right now
01:30:53 <oklopol> what were we talking about?
01:31:33 <augur> oklopol is going to cum in my ass, do you have a problem with this slereah?
01:31:40 <oklopol> Slereah: this is alan turing's house for *two* reasons
01:31:59 <Slereah> Is the second that you're going to become an hero?
01:32:03 <oklopol> one of them is your mother
01:32:11 <oklopol> and they're having hot lesbian sex
01:32:31 <oklopol> augur: do gays like lesbian action?
01:33:58 <augur> oklopol: no. lol. why would we?
01:34:41 <oklopol> dunno, i like icecream but i don't have sex with it
01:34:46 <oklopol> well i try, but my cock get's numb
01:34:51 <tusho> it's hard to figure out who is actually gay in #esoteric.
01:34:59 <augur> tusho: everyone, duh.
01:35:13 <tusho> except, like, really.
01:35:47 <augur> slereah and i are gay, oklopol is bi
01:36:02 <augur> and if you cant handle that, we're going to have to rape you.
01:36:06 <tusho> oklopol: no, but it would help the conversations be less confusing
01:36:20 <augur> this is #esoteric and you want LESS confusion?
01:36:33 <tusho> oklopol just got PROFILED
01:36:51 <oklopol> well fuck my ass and call me britney, so i did!
01:37:23 <Slereah> "Relations between pure and applied mathematicians are based on trust and understanding. Namely, pure mathematicians do not trust applied mathematicians, and applied mathematicians do not understand pure mathematicians."
01:37:53 <tusho> oklopol: you fucked your ass and called you britney?
01:38:01 <Slereah> "Mathematicians stand on each other's shoulders while computer scientists stand on each other's toes. "
01:38:16 <Slereah> "It has been said that physicists stand on one another's shoulders. If this is the case, then programmers stand on one another's toes, and software engineers dig each other's graves. "
01:39:07 <augur> slereah: lol nice quote :)
01:39:28 <Slereah> http://www.math.utah.edu/~cherk/mathjokes.html
01:39:34 <augur> have you heard the one
01:39:43 <tusho> i'm going to convert that into fortune(1) format.
01:40:14 <augur> biologists like to pretend they're chemists, chemists like to pretend they're physicists, physicists like to pretend they're god, and god likes to pretend he's a mathematician
01:40:48 <Slereah> Yeah, it was in today's XKCD.
01:40:49 <tusho> biologists like to pretend they're chemists, chemists like to pretend they're physicists, physicists like to pretend they're dog, and dog likes to pretend he's a mathematician
01:40:57 <augur> well not quite that one, slereah
01:40:59 <tusho> Slereah: It's "xkcd".
01:41:02 <augur> tho this one is older
01:42:10 <augur> we should make reactoscheme
01:42:26 <augur> add reactions to scheme
01:42:32 <augur> have <- be a special form
01:44:31 <augur> (urin -> slereah's mouth)
01:44:49 <tusho> it tastes like urin
01:45:23 <oklopol> but prolly has a urin-e taste too
01:45:32 <augur> so, what are you guys's majors?
01:46:00 <oklopol> tusho: don't answer, it's depressing to hear
01:46:42 <augur> oklopol, have you watched any of the open course ware stuff from MIT?
01:46:48 <augur> or berkeley's equivalent?
01:47:04 <augur> slereah, have you read SICM?
01:47:46 <augur> structure and interpretation of classical mechanics
01:48:02 <Slereah> I get enough mechanics at school.
01:48:10 <augur> its lagrangian mechanics taught as tho it were a scheme lib.
01:48:26 <tusho> majors? bah! you ancient folk.
01:48:29 <augur> when i say "as tho" what i mean is you actually write a scheme lib. :p
01:48:55 <Slereah> Feh. I bet you can't even build a time machine with it.
01:49:07 <augur> its scheme, ofcourse you can
01:49:18 <augur> (define tm (time-machine))
01:49:19 <Slereah> You have to use the relativistic Lagrangian for that!
01:53:24 <oklopol> okay, after a long discussion in priv with tusho, we decided it would be best to try and crush your hopes and dreams by revealing he's 12, and already owns you at most things
01:54:09 <augur> ::pulls up in a van with blacked out windows::
01:54:12 <augur> hey kid, want some candy?
01:54:53 <augur> have you heard that vent chat where this little 11 year old is playing with some 20+s
01:55:17 <augur> some thing the WOWers use to voice chat
01:55:28 <augur> go onto youtube and search for ventrillo harassment
01:55:47 <oklopol> is it the one where he cries when his parents close the game?
01:55:48 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:48 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:49 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:52 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:53 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:55 <augur> IVE GOT BALLS OF STEEL
01:55:57 <Slereah> Do you enjoy gladiator movies?
01:56:08 <augur> Gladiator was a good movie
01:56:22 <Slereah> Ever been in a Turkish prison?
01:56:40 <augur> tusho can come to my turkish prison any time he wants
01:56:49 <tusho> that's some contrived innuendo there
01:57:06 <Slereah> What, you never saw the movie "Airplane"?
01:57:06 <augur> actually no, i really do have a turkish prison
01:57:15 <augur> Airplane, REALLY good movie
01:57:41 <augur> i should watch airplane again
01:57:44 <augur> i havent seen it in ages
01:58:09 <oklopol> why watch airplane when you can just wiggle your toes and watch them?
01:58:20 <augur> aww, oklopol is so cute
01:58:21 <tusho> oklopol: intriguing
01:58:31 <augur> ::glomps oklopol:: you're so cute
01:58:34 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:58:45 <oklopol> my toes are quite cute, i have to admit.
01:58:54 <augur> i demand pictures of oklofeet
01:59:05 <augur> and masturbation material.
01:59:06 <oklopol> augur: i hear you're a bottom, shouldn't you be more into the rugged manly type?
01:59:19 <augur> i am a bottom, but no.
01:59:33 <Slereah> oklopol : augur's taste in men is dorks, from what I can see
01:59:33 <augur> just cause i like cock in my ass doesnt mean i like the rugged manly type
02:01:29 <oklopol> i guess i'm being a bit black-and-white
02:02:04 <Slereah> What are you, a half-nigger?
02:02:49 <oklopol> tbh i'm a fucking polyhedron
02:02:51 <augur> i'd do a zebra. such a big hard cock... mmm
02:03:13 <oklopol> Slereah: are you saying i'm a dork, or is it just for the guys he actually gets?
02:03:15 <Slereah> This is turning into #isharia
02:03:26 <Slereah> Well, he showed me his dream boy
02:03:31 <Slereah> He looks like a total dork
02:03:32 <augur> oklopol: he's saying that since i find you hot, you must be a dork
02:04:08 <tusho> i'm totally out of the loop on #esoteric. everyone seems to come from one or two irc channels and I only know about one of them :p
02:04:16 <augur> from wikipedia: "USA slang for a quirky, silly and/or stupid, socially inept person, or one who is out of touch with contemporary trends"
02:04:28 <oklopol> tusho: i just know #eso ppl on freenode.
02:04:42 <oklopol> came here for this channel, i mainly just idle on my other chans
02:04:47 <augur> you've followed me to like four other rooks, oklopol, dont lie
02:04:54 <tusho> oklopol: well, it seems half of everyone here is from Sine
02:04:54 <augur> you're in #proglangdesign RIGHT THIS MINUTE
02:05:03 <tusho> and the other half is from some place called #isharia
02:05:07 <tusho> and the third half is random crap
02:05:09 <oklopol> oh, well ok, i guess #proglangdesign would be just as interesting given more content
02:05:22 <augur> yeah, #proglangdesign is slow :(
02:05:34 <oklopol> tusho: sgeo is from there, and has recruited ppl there
02:05:41 <tusho> oklopol: yeah I know
02:05:41 <Slereah> Well, SimonRC doesn't talk anymore
02:05:44 <tusho> i've been on sine a few times
02:05:47 <tusho> and SimonRC does so talk.
02:05:48 <augur> oklopol, i wanna create a parser for a language with movement. :O
02:05:59 <tusho> is here from #isharia too, I seem to recall him mentioning it at one point
02:06:26 <Slereah> We're like the three musketeers, except we're not four
02:06:53 <tusho> SimonRC was active like a few days ago.
02:07:10 <oklopol> but yeah, i've prolly been active actively for the longest now
02:07:14 <tusho> anyway, I had no idea about Sine until I saw a screenshot with it on sgeo's website which I was poking around
02:07:20 <tusho> and then someone told me the address a bit later
02:07:57 <oklopol> well i guess ihope and ais523 are active
02:08:19 <Dewi> wow, the people who wrote that wikipedia article on dorks are real dorks
02:08:32 <oklopol> because IHOPE IS 15 AND OWNS ALL YOU YOU IN MATH.
02:08:45 <tusho> and I'M 12 AND I OWN YOU ALL IN BEING ANNOYING.
02:09:17 <Slereah> tusho : Don't make me use my trolling gear
02:09:23 <tusho> Slereah: you always use it.
02:09:34 <tusho> is that even possible
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02:10:20 <augur> oklopol depresses me. :\
02:10:43 <augur> because you'd be a great boyfriend. :P
02:10:55 <oklopol> we'd be so great together!
02:10:59 <augur> i hate your girlfriend :(
02:11:06 <oklopol> we could code together all night and have sex on the side...
02:11:24 <tusho> ^^ the beginning of a long lasting relationship ^^
02:11:28 <oklopol> i guess i'm being a bit mean... or sexy?
02:14:05 <Slereah7> So tusho, what do you want to be when you grow up
02:14:17 <tusho> Slereah7: A PEDOPHILE!
02:14:30 <Slereah7> You can't, the market is full.
02:14:55 <tusho> All my hopes and dreams.
02:15:23 <oklopol> tusho: do what i did, take pictures of yourself now, so you can jack off to them when you're an incest-loving old gay pedophile
02:15:39 <tusho> oklopol: hey now that's a clever idea!
02:16:09 <Slereah7> Film yourself eating some feces, just in case you grow up to be into pedoscat
02:16:29 <tusho> no, I'll have perfected my photoshoop skills by then
02:17:18 <oklopol> i guess in case you turn out to be a pedocoprophiliac you might wanna put some feces in the freezer or smth.
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02:18:13 <oklopol> hmm, #esoteric-sex might be more feasible nowadays
02:18:18 <oklopol> used to be just me and bsmnt
02:18:58 <tusho> couldn't that just be
02:19:09 <tusho> which is, uh, the offtopic counterpart to #esoteric
02:19:11 <Slereah> Couldn't that just be #esoteric
02:19:13 <tusho> tho mostly only used for bawtz.
02:19:35 <oklopol> Slereah: well sure, except some might not enjoy the filth
02:19:45 <oklopol> wonder who these some are.
02:20:05 <tusho> oklopol: ais523 doesn't really like it
02:20:10 <tusho> that's why he leaves quite often
02:20:27 <oklopol> and prolly oerjie too, but he's a full-time idler anyways nowadays
02:21:31 <oklopol> tusho: has he actually said that?
02:21:46 <tusho> yes, in #ESO or somewhere
02:21:48 <oklopol> or just left when someone has been naughty?
02:23:41 <oklopol> i guess all irc channels have the same issue
02:23:57 <oklopol> except on bigger ones there is the occasional "stop, that's disgusting"
02:24:13 <tusho> well, it IS a bit of a problem here
02:24:15 <tusho> I mean, it's amusing
02:24:20 <tusho> but, you know, we could talk about esolangs sometime.
02:24:24 <tusho> and actually keep on topic.
02:25:19 <Slereah> Well, if you know priority symbols from before 1202, I could work them somewhere in Arithmetica!
02:25:36 <Slereah> Programming without parenthesis or PN is a pain in the ass.
02:25:47 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica
02:27:50 <Slereah> But that seems like troubles.
02:28:07 <Slereah> Of course, looking for mathematics from the third century is too, in a way
02:28:24 <augur> afk watching CS61C
02:28:52 <oklopol> Slereah: so it's basically a way to denote equations and shit?
02:28:53 <Slereah> Mathematics from the olden day was horrible to read
02:29:09 <Slereah> oklopol : Well, that's mostly what Arithmetica was
02:29:25 <augur> slereah: what if mathematics today is horrible to read compared to math from 4000 AD?
02:29:29 <Slereah> The first book to have mathematical notation, but it was mostly created for equations.
02:29:52 <Slereah> It's from Diophantus, the guy that gave his name to diophantine equations
02:30:15 <oklopol> i derived the way to solve those recently
02:30:35 <Slereah> You can't solve generally diophantine equations
02:30:48 <oklopol> err then i'm thinking of something else
02:31:29 <Slereah> I think it's just polynoms.
02:31:55 <Slereah> "In mathematics, a Diophantine equation is an indeterminate polynomial equation that allows the variables to be integers only."
02:32:29 <oklopol> i thought it was just the simple form that had the name
02:32:44 <Slereah> "In 1970, a novel result in mathematical logic known as Matiyasevich's theorem settled the problem negatively: in general Diophantine problems are unsolvable."
02:33:04 <oklopol> well they could've been solvable for integers
02:33:31 <oklopol> because there's not X-jection integer -> real
02:34:07 <Slereah> Well, it doesn't matter a lot
02:34:16 <Slereah> There's no constructive set of reals.
02:34:47 <Slereah> "Diophantine equivalents of undecidable proposition"
02:34:58 <oklopol> i'm justt saying the lack of that jection (supply correct term pls) means it's not a trivial result
02:36:40 <Slereah> "Thus there exists a statement about the solutions of a diophantine equation which is not decidable in our formal system."
02:36:52 <Slereah> Hm. Maybe the dude showed it was impossible in general
02:37:09 <Slereah> Of course, it would be true for all formal system
02:37:32 <Slereah> Well, not all mathematical problems have to be solved by formal systems
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02:53:45 <Slereah> I sometimes see that esolangs are used for educational purposes
02:53:50 <Slereah> But are there any examples?
02:56:28 <tusho> Slereah: not really.
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14:37:34 <Hiato> Anyone alive [that can help with regexps]?
14:38:51 <Hiato> yay, well essentially, if I want to pass only strings that don't contain two letters specified in an array, in immediate succession, what kind of logic must I use?
14:39:09 <Hiato> say the array is ['a','b','c']
14:39:23 <Hiato> I want adbec to pass, but abd to fail etc
14:39:57 <Hiato> I can only get as far as +{1,5}?
14:40:00 <Hiato> which is not right
14:40:04 <Hiato> PS: it's in python
14:42:10 <Hiato> as in, oklopol, I'm a total newcomer to it in Python, so don't expect me to be much help ;)
14:43:55 <oklopol> def check(l):return all(map(lambda(a,b):abs(ord(a)-ord(b))!=1,zip(l,l[1:])))
14:44:41 <Hiato> right, you get the following:
14:44:42 <Hiato> temp1 = ['abc','abd','adb']
14:44:42 <Hiato> for p in range(len(temp1)): if someOKLOPOLmagic: pop(temp1(p))
14:44:42 <Hiato> the condition being, you cannot have more than one of anything in tempt 2 together in anything in temp1
14:47:53 <Hiato> wait, the condition is way too complicated for a regexp
14:48:01 <Hiato> actually, nevermind
14:48:07 <Hiato> but thanks anyway :)
14:48:24 * Hiato sets out to do it procedurally
14:49:30 <oklopol> i have no idea what magid this is
14:49:53 <oklopol> but, it's possible i misunderstood what you needed
14:50:11 <oklopol> check tells you whether a string/list contains characters one apart from each other
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18:26:57 <tusho> speaking of which, this channel will be logged soon
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18:27:14 <lament> hopefully it already is, no?.. by clog?
18:28:04 <tusho> lament: but not in a convenient interface
18:28:18 <lament> there's irseek for that :)
18:28:27 <tusho> lament: I've already expressed my objections to irseek.
18:28:33 <tusho> Besides, mine will import all the logs clog did.
18:30:06 <tusho> lament: what on earth is the correct response to 'yarly' without 'orly' before it?
18:30:13 <tusho> 'orly' or 'nowai' or 'YOU GOT IT WRONG DAMNIT'
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18:54:55 <Slereah7> Which should be answered by "HABEEB IT!"
19:09:32 <oklopol> wtf @ http://dagobah.biz/flash/the_worlds_hardest_game.swf
19:11:06 <oklopol> bimonthly take-out-the-trash ->
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19:16:43 <Slereah7> oklopol : Try "I want to be the guy"
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19:33:19 <oklopol> is it the beta build i'm supposed to load?
19:33:28 <oklopol> http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/downloads.php tell me what to click
19:34:22 <tusho> oklopol: IWTBG Beta Build Frame Skip
19:34:29 <tusho> or if your machine is ANCIENT, Slomo (I use frame skip.)
19:34:41 <tusho> oklopol: Then, put it on the desktop or something and run it.
19:35:15 <tusho> And then, kill yourself without playing it.
19:36:41 <oklopol> i'm getting 4.5 kb/s, so may take a while before i can try that
19:36:59 <tusho> Click Here to Download Demo!
19:37:15 <tusho> it includes the first 3 bosses ... which take like weeks of determined practice to get to anyway
19:38:01 <Slereah7> I never got past the first screen.
19:38:23 <tusho> Slereah7: Just jump up the top.
19:38:26 <tusho> It's the easiest route.
19:39:21 <tusho> Slereah7: Double jump, dude.
19:39:24 <tusho> Press shift twice.
19:39:48 <tusho> Slereah7: You have to move to the right to actually land on something...
19:39:49 <Slereah7> I can't, you know, get enough on the right to reach the floor
19:40:02 <tusho> Slereah7: Um. Just keep trying. It's easy. I got it first time.
19:40:05 <Slereah7> I played enough Mario to know the drill!
19:40:05 <tusho> You're just being too clever.
19:41:19 <Slereah7> But I was killed by an apple :o
19:41:30 <tusho> Slereah7: You have to run into them, then away before they fall.
19:41:34 <tusho> And you have to jump over some of them.
19:41:38 <tusho> Also, they're giant cherries.
19:41:50 <Slereah7> I'll try as soon as I get back up
19:42:01 <tusho> It's not even hard.
19:42:33 <tusho> Slereah7: Watch a video of it on youtube.
19:42:50 <tusho> I know your problem.
19:42:57 <tusho> You should press jump when you reach your peak.
19:43:00 <tusho> Not straight after the first.
19:43:44 <tusho> Those are a bit infuriating.
19:43:57 <oklopol> judging by the youtube clip the first part is trivial
19:44:03 <tusho> oklopol: you'd think
19:44:16 <tusho> because you move fast
19:44:18 <tusho> it's hard to get precision
19:44:48 <tusho> oklopol: stop watching the youtube video, it'll spoil all the suprises
19:46:13 <tusho> that happens a lot
19:46:16 <tusho> you memorize the first part
19:46:23 <tusho> so its not that painful
19:46:45 <tusho> Slereah7: the thing is that this game is actually fun
19:46:49 <tusho> not in the 'whee this is fun' sense
19:46:59 <tusho> but in the 'HAHAHAHA YES I GOT PAST THIS PART YOU FUCKING GAME I ROCK SO FUCKING MUCH'
19:47:19 <Slereah7> A big problem is the shift key
19:47:29 <tusho> Slereah7: maybe you should try a gamepad
19:47:31 <Slereah7> If I press it 5 times in a row, I get some windows thingamabob
19:47:35 <tusho> Slereah7: that's easy
19:47:43 <tusho> and 'configure' on the stickykeys thing
19:47:47 <tusho> and deselect 'Use keycombination'
19:47:51 <oklopol> tusho: i watched just till the first part
19:47:53 <tusho> something similar to that
19:48:01 <oklopol> wanted to see what it looks like
19:48:11 * Hiato is still laughing about the 2:1 result
19:48:45 <tusho> hope you're playing on Medium
19:48:50 <tusho> those wuss points are invaluable
19:49:02 <tusho> and the bow-tie is funny
19:49:06 <oklopol> once you get to a save point, you've definitely achieved something? i mean, is it straightforward?
19:49:06 <Slereah7> I'm not stupid enough to do hard on my first game
19:49:20 <tusho> oklopol: anyway, just a note
19:49:24 <tusho> set the difficulty to Medium
19:49:26 <oklopol> is it possible to go the wrong way
19:49:27 <Slereah7> I think he means "Can I do something wrong"
19:49:36 <tusho> oklopol: no, you can't go wrong
19:49:39 <tusho> but there are multiple paths
19:49:46 <tusho> in particular, you beat one boss, then go back and do another
19:49:51 <tusho> (it's all one big map)
19:50:01 <tusho> oklopol: anyway, choose Medium - all the skills effect are the number of save points
19:50:03 <tusho> and you really need them
19:50:10 <tusho> (Well, Medium puts a pink bow-tie on your character for being a wuss.)
19:50:30 <oklopol> i'll try medium if hard is hard
19:50:41 <tusho> Medium is nigh-on impossible anyway
19:50:57 <tusho> oklopol: dude, right after the cherries (REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING) is a bit that'll take you like 50 tries to get right
19:51:02 <tusho> you don't wanna have to do the cherries every time
19:51:09 <tusho> there's a wuss point right after the cherries though
19:51:13 <tusho> i.e. only available on Medium
19:51:20 <Slereah7> I read that some games unlock the easy mode if you die enough
19:51:26 <tusho> in fact, the FAQ tells all new players to START ON MEDIUM DAMNIT
19:51:33 <Slereah7> But they put you in a tutu or something for being such a pansy.
19:51:46 <tusho> Slereah7: Well, look at the main character on medium.
19:51:52 <tusho> That pink thing isn't there on anythiing but medium. :P
19:52:06 <tusho> So, this game is one of them, except it's always unlocked
19:52:15 <Slereah7> Well, I cleared the falling cherries.
19:52:18 <tusho> Medium, Hard, Very Hard, Impossible
19:52:23 <tusho> Impossible has no save points at all - so it literally is.
19:52:24 <Slereah7> Now, how to jump on the platform...
19:52:30 <oklopol> well i would've started on impossible
19:52:45 <tusho> oklopol: Medium will rape you from the inside anyway
19:52:46 <Slereah7> Well, there's always some nutso who actually do the "impossible" levels and such
19:52:59 <tusho> Slereah7: Not on this game.
19:53:03 <tusho> Because, uh, the game is very big.
19:53:07 <Slereah7> Like that guy who managed to finish Postal 2 without killing anyone.
19:53:13 <tusho> And it has loads of one-pixel=OOP I DIED
19:53:21 <Slereah7> tusho : Believe me, you'll always find a nut.
19:53:27 <tusho> I mean, if you're really good. You'll die like 100 times on Medium.
19:53:52 <tusho> Slereah7: Shiet. You're right.
19:53:52 <tusho> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSqQ8Qjc9fs&feature=related
19:54:09 <tusho> But the person doing thati s a retard.
19:54:55 <tusho> Slereah7: I thought you said you cleared that.
19:55:04 <tusho> Oh, btw. To use a save/wuss point shoot it.
19:55:27 <Slereah7> I meant that I cleared the cherries that fall, you know
19:55:40 <tusho> well, it's not hard the second time
19:55:43 <tusho> just jump out of their way.
19:56:07 <Slereah7> The first one, I have like a 1cm wide platform
19:56:23 <tusho> Slereah7: Start to jump on to the next platform, then immediately press right to get back.
19:57:15 <Slereah7> I'm not sure I want to be the guy.
19:57:21 <tusho> Slereah7: It's a bit hard getting used to it.
19:57:27 <tusho> Die a few more times and it should become second nature. :P
19:57:47 <tusho> For the very last one.
19:57:54 <tusho> You just have to double jump on to the last platform
19:57:56 <Slereah7> I wonder if I can shoot the savepoint from here.
19:57:58 <tusho> And hold down left to do it.
19:58:14 <tusho> But yeah, the last one you just GTFO on to the next platform before it hits you.
19:59:20 <tusho> Slereah7: the last one under the platform just falls downwards.
19:59:34 <tusho> The second-last one (the one before the wuss point) you just have to jump and be fast enough
20:00:10 <tusho> Slereah7: that's ok
20:00:13 <tusho> the cherries are still gone
20:01:44 <tusho> Slereah7: Wusspoint or save point?
20:01:56 <tusho> But one is marked WUSS.
20:02:05 <tusho> Oh, btw. When you get beyond the clouds, don't go <-- to the left. Go ^ up with the EVIL SPIKY FALLDOWN
20:02:51 <Slereah7> Good thing the game over music isn't annoying.
20:03:01 <tusho> Slereah7: Was that sarcasm?
20:03:04 <tusho> Because you can turn off the moo-sic.
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20:05:16 <Slereah7> I jumped too far and landed on a spike :o
20:05:30 <tusho> You gotta save point though.
20:06:13 <tusho> GAH THIS BIT IS IMPOSSIBLE>
20:07:05 <Slereah7> How do I get from the cloud that goes up to the leftmost cloud?
20:07:20 <tusho> Slereah7: Well that's the challengy bit.
20:07:25 <tusho> I mean, you need to get off it, right?
20:07:30 <tusho> Well, where are your exits from that cloud?
20:07:46 <oklopol> indeed, just brute force itt.
20:07:55 <tusho> Slereah7: Spikes on the RIGHT?
20:08:03 <tusho> We're talking about the cloud that goes up.
20:08:06 <tusho> There's no spikes to the right of that.
20:08:10 <tusho> There's a way off the cloud.
20:08:19 <tusho> Slereah7: And you can change your direction mid-fall.
20:08:25 <Slereah7> That "way off" is less than one centimeter.
20:08:26 <tusho> Walk off the right edge of the cloud as it goes upwards.
20:08:31 <tusho> Then, immediately hold down left
20:08:36 <tusho> Double jump half-way there.
20:08:38 <tusho> Slereah7: No it's not.
20:08:39 <Slereah7> Sure, my character is ten pixels wide
20:08:41 <tusho> Do it as soon as you get onto it.
20:09:16 <Slereah7> I didn't even got the time to get to the middle of it :o
20:09:47 <tusho> Slereah7: Lemme show you an mspaint.
20:11:53 <tusho> Slereah7: Just a sce.
20:12:24 <tusho> Slereah7: K, here:
20:12:27 <tusho> http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08244/sdfdsf890.png
20:12:38 <tusho> Red line = where to go when you land on planet Goupcloud.
20:13:14 <Slereah7> The jump key isn't always very responsive :(
20:13:19 <tusho> Slereah7: No, actually...
20:13:27 <tusho> You can't double jump when you go below your peak
20:13:34 <tusho> WHen you get to the second -
20:13:37 <tusho> you can't double jump any more
20:14:01 <Slereah7> The descending cloud actually *flex* when I'm over it!
20:14:40 <Slereah7> It doesn't actually descend because of gravity or anything.
20:14:47 <Slereah7> This cloud has a mind of its own
20:15:01 <tusho> Slereah7: You mean the middle cloud?
20:15:09 <tusho> It makes as much sense as cherries falling upwards.
20:15:16 <Slereah7> If you're over it, but before you land, you can see it going down and up.
20:15:30 <Slereah7> Yes. The environment is very hostile.
20:15:50 <Slereah7> Oh course, if a guy with a pink bow jumped on my back, I would send him to his death
20:16:37 <tusho> I just got further than ever there
20:16:41 <tusho> Slereah7: I figure I shoudl warn you:
20:16:45 <tusho> You know the final cloud?
20:16:49 <tusho> You know the peice of land with the save point?
20:16:53 <tusho> Well, the landing you have on to that.
20:16:55 <tusho> When you land on to it.
20:17:01 <tusho> A huge spike thing comes down at you.
20:17:12 <tusho> What you should do: Jump on to it from the cloud, then jump on to the other peice of land on the left immediately.
20:17:17 <tusho> Once it's fallen down, jump onto it and go up.
20:18:05 <tusho> Oh man. I just got past the next screen but a spike came down frmo a cloud on to me.
20:22:34 <tusho> Slereah7: Which part are you up to?
20:22:38 <tusho> Because oh man. The next bit sucks.
20:22:44 <tusho> I'm almost up to the first boss, too.
20:24:29 <Slereah7> http://www.home-school.com/Articles/
20:25:00 <Slereah7> It seems they don't like computers much
20:25:16 <Slereah7> And from what I can see, that they never actually had to search for information
20:31:59 <oklopol> okay, it is pretty hard getting anywhere as shift doesn't always do the second jump
20:32:39 <oklopol> Slereah7: thanks good answer
20:32:47 <tusho> oklopol: anyway, read up
20:32:55 <tusho> by the point of the second -
20:32:57 <tusho> you can't double-jump
20:33:00 <tusho> you have to do it at the peak or earlier
20:33:04 <tusho> To word it in english:
20:33:10 <tusho> When you start _falling_ after your jump, you can't double jump.
20:33:26 <oklopol> but can you jump if you just fall?
20:33:38 <tusho> after you just fall you can do one more jump
20:33:42 <tusho> oklopol: what part are you at?
20:34:25 <tusho> oklopol: which path are you going
20:34:28 <tusho> upwards to the cherries?
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20:47:32 <Slereah7> "Just as in real education there is a point at which mathematics or chemistry or a foreign language aren't "fun" any more if you actually want to master them."
20:47:57 <Sgeo> Science involves too much reality for my taste :/
20:47:58 <pikhq> Math is very, very fun.
20:47:58 <tusho> Slereah7: I think you're trying to say 'fuck you home-school.com'.
20:48:18 <oklopol> i wish i were home schooled
20:48:27 <pikhq> (although I may have just not hit that point. Of course, if I hit that point, then it'd probably be in grad school. :p)
20:49:52 <pikhq> No, pi ~= 3. (though that is a poor estimate)
20:50:20 <oklopol> tusho: is there a trick to the room with the invisible blocks?
20:50:30 <tusho> oklopol: don't go that way
20:51:05 <oklopol> i know i possible, i did the second jump twice already, and the third is equal to that... but it'll take me a week.
20:52:04 <Sgeo> what game is this?
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20:52:23 <tusho> Sgeo: I Wanna Be The Guy: The Movie: The Game
20:53:14 <Slereah7> Imagine an old school platform game
20:53:21 <Slereah7> Now imagine it full of fake difficulty.
20:53:28 <tusho> Slereah7: And love.
20:54:51 <Slereah7> I almost was on the last cloud
20:57:46 <tusho> oklopol: when you go up and get got by the spikes
20:57:49 <tusho> i'm at the bit after the spikes
20:57:59 <tusho> where you're on a platform going left and right and have to avoid spikes by jumping over them
20:58:56 <Slereah7> "Evolution Theory Adds No Information to Science"
20:59:07 <Slereah7> This is what it all comes down to
20:59:50 <pikhq> You know, evolution was recently observed in an E. Coli population in a lab. . .
21:00:14 <pikhq> The E. Coli evolved the ability to metabolise citrate after a few thousand generations.
21:00:39 <tusho> pikhq: Uh. Isn't it like standard biology class stuff to evolve some bacteria?
21:00:48 <tusho> I think the creationists deny _macro-scale_ evolution.
21:00:53 <tusho> Not micro-scale. That would be even stupider.
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21:01:39 <Slereah7> They usually go something like "Well you don't see a dog born to a cat, do you!"
21:01:43 <pikhq> (the ability to metabolise citrate is a fairly complex ability; that ability is actually used to differentiate between a few different bacteria species)
21:02:19 <Slereah7> Because creationism is made for people who have no clue as to what science is.
21:03:05 <augur> slereah, i just realized. part of it is that people have a sort of built in platonism with regard to types
21:03:25 <augur> and so its hard for them to grasp that theres no such thing as A Dog in the first place
21:03:26 <pikhq> This recently observed thing is like a dog, over many generations, evolving the ability to chew cud.
21:04:07 <Slereah7> They usually refer to the biblical "kind".
21:04:09 <pikhq> How many dogs chew cud?
21:04:14 <Slereah7> Of course, they have no clue what a kind is.
21:04:31 <pikhq> It sure as hell ain't Canis lupus.
21:04:45 <Slereah7> Why is a wolf closer to a terrier than a fox.
21:04:49 <pikhq> Perhaps Canis ungulatus?
21:05:11 <augur> slereah: just because.
21:05:16 <pikhq> A terrier is Canis lupus domesticus. A wolf is Canis lupus <some other subspecies>.
21:05:33 <augur> canis lupus better-than-fucking-dogs-icus
21:06:21 <pikhq> Anyways, off I go.
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21:13:26 <Slereah7> I didn't even know you could fall!
21:13:30 <tusho> MORALE: DON'T DO THAT
21:15:01 <tusho> oklopol: I shut it down. But I'll start again
21:15:02 <oklopol> a bit annoying to wait for 5 minutes for tyson and then die as i have no idea what do to
21:15:26 <augur> SICP is so fucking awesome
21:15:28 <oklopol> he doesn't show he's hurt?
21:15:33 <tusho> oklopol: he goes ow.
21:16:55 <tusho> wtf where di my parallels winxp go
21:17:13 <oklopol> ok i think i hurt him a few times
21:18:03 <tusho> oklopol: yeah I'm not sure msyelf
21:20:39 <Slereah7> The problem with this game is, you don't have the time to make a mistake
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21:24:19 <oklopol> Slereah7: you're still at the beginning?
21:25:10 <oklopol> i managed to walk past him!
21:25:22 <Slereah7> "What You Should Know About Computer Models Jason Makansi tells us how to tell if a computer projection is likely to be accurate or wildly wrong."
21:25:44 <Slereah7> Also "Going to College at Home Paula Mann shows how you can do it."
21:27:08 <oklopol> okay, i know how to pass him now
21:27:14 <oklopol> but... i have no idea how to hurt him.
21:27:27 <tusho> oklopol: you shoot him in the right place
21:27:29 <tusho> at the right moment
21:27:58 <oklopol> yeah, but what might that be
21:28:07 <tusho> I FUCKED UP MY SAVE
21:28:12 <tusho> BY SAVING RIGHT WHERE THE LIGHTNING BOLT COMES DOWN
21:29:46 <oklopol> well till mike tyson it was pretty easy
21:29:57 <oklopol> and this is prolly easy too, just hard to figure out
21:31:43 <Slereah7> "The chief advantage of enrolling in Edison's Guided Study courses or using these books/programs (doing it on the cheap) over your children attending the local community college is that parents can watch videos with their children and point out what is wrong."
21:31:53 <Slereah7> I'm sure parents are qualified for such courses.
21:32:35 <Slereah7> Although I think it's mostly "EVOLUTION IS WRONG" whenever it comes up
21:32:37 <oklopol> especially with this goddamned wait
21:32:46 <oklopol> hopefully only takes three hits :|
21:34:26 <tusho> oklopol: ifuckinghatetheplatformyouhavetogoonbeforetheroombeforemiketyson
21:36:41 <tusho> oklopol: oh my god
21:36:43 <tusho> the stars kill you
21:37:03 <Slereah7> "Want to rescue people? Forget Final Fantasy 7 - join Civil Air Patrol. Kids as young as 11 can join and participate in real search and rescue."
21:37:10 <Slereah7> Yeah, that's much more exciting.
21:37:15 <oklopol> getting a bit tired, hard is okay, but i hate it when i have no idea what to do
21:37:28 <Slereah7> "Stuck on Doom and Quake? Maybe your teen needs to take a hunter safety course and learn what guns are really all about. "
21:37:38 <Slereah7> Can I hunt giant eyeballs and zombies?
21:37:44 <oklopol> well, i know how to get the first hit, but he comes at me totally differently the second time
21:37:47 <tusho> oklopol: Watch a video.
21:37:50 <tusho> It'll tell you how.
21:38:00 <tusho> Slereah7: correction, fuck you home-school.com
21:39:07 <Slereah7> A lot of the articles have nothing to do with home schooling
21:39:08 <oklopol> tusho: i found that extremely simple :)
21:39:12 <tusho> Fall down inthe room before mike tyson
21:39:13 <tusho> THAT MAKES NO SENSE
21:39:14 <Slereah7> It's just about evolution and global warming.
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21:40:56 <tusho> Slereah7: in the room before mike tyson
21:40:59 <tusho> how do you get on to the last bit
21:40:59 <Slereah7> You're nothing but... AN EPIC FAIL GUY
21:41:07 <tusho> because I can get up to the box that goes down
21:41:23 <tusho> oklopol: shoot what
21:42:16 <tusho> now for mike tyson
21:42:22 <oklopol> i may have come up with the way to kill that bitch
21:43:26 <tusho> how on earth do you do that
21:43:57 <oklopol> i just may know how it's done.
21:44:24 <tusho> Died for the second time.
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21:44:58 <oklopol> i can give you hints, but try for a while first
21:45:09 <SimonRC> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/third_edition/html/lexical.html#3.8
21:45:25 <tusho> SimonRC: which one
21:45:29 <tusho> "Two identifiers are the same only if they are identical, that is, have the same Unicode character for each letter or digit."
21:45:34 <tusho> if so that seems reasonable to me
21:45:51 <SimonRC> I am thinking from a malicious PoV
21:46:08 <SimonRC> suppose you have a variable called ....
21:46:41 <SimonRC> and you have another one that is the same but represented as an e and a combining acute mark...
21:47:02 <SimonRC> the Java spec says they must be different variables
21:47:15 <SimonRC> the unicode spec says they must look identical
21:47:42 <SimonRC> so you have seperate variables that are distinguished solely by something that you aren't supposed to be able to see
21:49:21 <tusho> oklopol: i got one hit on him
21:49:31 <SimonRC> just for fun, you can name everything e, with various accents.
21:49:37 <oklopol> yeah, that's as far as i get too :D
21:49:45 <tusho> oklopol: I fell down a hole he made
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21:49:55 <oklopol> the second time really is different, and i have no idea what to do.
21:50:00 <tusho> looked the same to me
21:50:03 <SimonRC> your text editor or other text tools might mangle the one representation into the other.
21:50:42 <SimonRC> well, turning two variables into one often affects the running of a program...
21:51:37 <SimonRC> I forgot to give people context beyond "making code hard to maintain"
21:51:39 <SimonRC> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/unmain.html
21:51:59 <tusho> yes, it's good for making obfuscated code
21:52:01 <tusho> but not _malicious_
21:52:26 <oklopol> he doesn't make holes before the first hit
21:52:26 <oklopol> i mean, using my technique
21:52:27 <tusho> SimonRC: firstly, the user would have to edit the source
21:52:42 <tusho> they would also have to use an editor that does that
21:52:45 <oklopol> tusho: moves faster the second time
21:52:51 <tusho> SimonRC: then, they'd have to compile it.
21:52:57 <tusho> without reading what it actually does.
21:53:06 <SimonRC> if I found that someone was relying on that bit of the spec in production code I would suspect them of trying to sabotage the company
21:53:06 <tusho> also, they'd have to not notice that you have two variable declarations for the same char.
21:53:11 <tusho> also, they'd have to not notice that you have two variable declarations for the same char.
21:53:53 <tusho> oklopol: wanna try a different route?
21:53:56 <tusho> there are two more
21:53:57 <SimonRC> suppose that the chance of a programmer's tools actually turning the one variable into the other are rather slim
21:54:05 <tusho> one of them is going V down on the first screen
21:54:14 <tusho> then, when the spike moves away
21:54:17 <tusho> jump up again and immediately drop
21:54:20 <tusho> the spike will go through
21:54:26 <tusho> and you jump up and walk through the wall
21:54:42 <SimonRC> oklopol: yes, if you are saying what I think you are
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21:55:22 <Slereah7> "Buy a copy of a baby naming book and youll never be at a loss for variable names. Fred is a wonderful name, and easy to type."
21:55:37 <Slereah7> "If you call your variables a, b, c, then it will be impossible to search for instances of them using a simple text editor."
21:56:00 <Slereah7> I don't want people maintaining my code :o
21:57:03 <Slereah7> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/TTT3.4.c
21:58:32 <Slereah7> "In naming functions and variables, make heavy use of abstract words like it, everything, data, handle, stuff, do, routine, perform and the digits e.g. routineX48, PerformDataFunction, DoIt, HandleStuff and do_args_method."
21:58:36 <oklopol> tusho: two hits, and i think i can get infinite hits now
21:58:47 <Slereah7> I am so going to do that for my next interpreter
21:59:04 <Slereah7> "Real men never define acronyms; they understand them genetically."
21:59:14 <tusho> oklopol: should I make an awesome game that's just as hard
21:59:43 <Slereah7> YOU HAVE TO CLICK A PIXEL-WIDE BUTTON IN THE NEXT SECOND
21:59:58 <Slereah7> OR YOU WILL DIE, AND YOUR SAVES WILL BE ERASED
22:00:15 <oklopol> less incredibly great timing, more fast reacting
22:00:38 <tusho> things that hone into you
22:00:41 <tusho> like, circle around you
22:00:47 <tusho> and you have to jump around to confuse them
22:01:23 <oklopol> i like the kind of thing where nothing is especially hard, but you have to keep moving all the time
22:01:33 <tusho> oklopol: yeah, mine'll be like that
22:01:45 <oklopol> not the kind this one is, that you get rest all the time, but the single tasks are impossible
22:02:37 <tusho> AIS523 IF YOU ARE LOGREADING
22:02:46 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_the_lucky_stiff <-- DELETING THIS PAGE IS A TOTALLY SHITTY IDEA.
22:02:54 <tusho> HE'S INCREDIBLY WELL KNOWN IN THE RUBY COMMUNITY (WHICH HAS LATELY GROWN HUGE).
22:03:02 <tusho> DON'T BE STUPID AND STOP THEM. K.
22:03:17 <tusho> (Easy ways to get in touch with wikipedia administrators #1, that is)
22:03:32 <tusho> oklopol: mine will have music generated to how you're playing
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22:06:13 <tusho> oklopol: what did you last hear
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22:06:53 <tusho> oklopol: that's the last thing then
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22:08:44 <Slereah7> "Hungarian Notation is the tactical nuclear weapon of source code obfuscation techniques; use it! "
22:08:54 <tusho> lament: Colloquy is stupid.
22:09:07 <tusho> But it handles SILC and some other protocols too, so maybe that's why.
22:09:12 <tusho> oklopol: ah, then no
22:09:26 <tusho> my game will literally randomly generate a soundtrack based on how you're moving
22:10:06 <oklopol> third time, it's even faster
22:10:28 <Slereah7> "If a maintenance programmer cant quote entire Monty Python movies from memory, he or she has no business being a programmer."
22:10:59 <tusho> oklopol: PAY ATTENTION TO ME
22:11:42 <oklopol> generating music is a great idea, and you should do it
22:12:26 <tusho> oklopol: AND I WILL!
22:13:23 <SimonRC> Slereah7: not much of an AI...
22:14:15 <SimonRC> 21:57:03 < Slereah7> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/TTT3.4.c
22:14:39 <SimonRC> the ascii codes for the messages are a bit gratuitous though
22:14:43 <SimonRC> tusho: read it and find out
22:14:51 <tusho> SimonRC: moar like: run it
22:15:00 <SimonRC> function g() is a big hint
22:15:13 <tusho> SimonRC: i don't think Slereah7 wrote that though
22:15:19 <SimonRC> if you don't get it after reading g, read h
22:15:47 <tusho> hah, I just beat the computer.
22:15:58 <Slereah7> SimonRC : The strings would give away the program!
22:16:08 <tusho> oh so he did write it
22:16:23 <tusho> SimonRC: a tic-tac-toe AI is so simple you can just write it as a transition table
22:16:29 <tusho> and include it right there in the source
22:16:47 <tusho> "_____________O____"
22:16:53 <tusho> is empty board -> put in middle
22:17:18 <Slereah7> Although I could have done more obfuscated, I suppose
22:17:31 <tusho> lament: hah, yeah, you could write a tic-tac-toe in thue pretty easily!
22:17:41 <Slereah7> Like filling the arrays with any numbers, then do arithmetics on them or whatever
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22:17:54 <Slereah7> Also, note : there is a goto in there.
22:18:02 <Slereah7> People don't use enough goto in C.
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22:18:23 <oklofok> tusho: getting back from the tyson room is harder than tyson.
22:18:33 <lament> definitely "not enough" is the expression i was thinking of.
22:18:41 <tusho> lament: it's obfuscated code.
22:19:02 <Slereah7> : Pepper the code with comments like /* add 1 to i */ however, never document wooly stuff like the overall purpose of the package or method.
22:19:27 <tusho> you know what c needs
22:19:29 <tusho> intra-procedure gotos
22:19:37 <tusho> x(){A:goto B;}y(){B:goto A;}
22:19:43 <tusho> especially if they don't actually change the call stack
22:20:14 <oklofok> the jump from the save point to the falling piece is next to impossible
22:20:14 <tusho> x(int i){return i+1;A:return i*2;}y(int j){int i=x(j);goto A;}
22:20:27 <tusho> which is equiv. to:
22:20:41 <tusho> y(int i){return (i+1)*2}
22:21:30 <SimonRC> I have seen beter than that in Forth...
22:21:53 <tusho> SimonRC: but it's more fun if you have a regular c program that just goto's to some other procedure
22:21:58 <Slereah7> : Discourage any attempt to use external maintenance contractors by peppering your code with insulting references to other leading software companies, especially anyone who might be contracted to do the work.
22:22:05 <SimonRC> I have seen a legitimately-used jump from run-time into compile-time
22:22:38 <SimonRC> : foo create ... begin ... does> ... again ... ;
22:22:59 <oklofok> tusho: i stopped, getting a bit late
22:23:07 <oklofok> but you prolly stopped ages ago
22:23:09 <SimonRC> it creates words that create words that ... and so on forever
22:29:34 <Slereah7> In those worlds, the terser your code and the more bizarre the way it works, the more you are revered.
22:30:14 <SimonRC> well, I am currently doing stuff with colorForth
22:30:24 <SimonRC> that really really emphasizes simplicity
22:31:59 <Slereah7> In C, the effects of pre/post decrement code such as
22:31:59 <Slereah7> are not defined by the language spec. Every compiler is free to evaluate in a different order. This makes them doubly deadly.
22:33:12 <SimonRC> suppose a compiler keeps track of what to increment and decrement by setting flags on its data about variables...
22:33:26 <SimonRC> a++ + a++ could plausibly just increment a once
22:33:37 <tusho> SimonRC: in gcc, a++ + a++ DOES only increment once I think
22:34:19 <SimonRC> but then, in old GCCs, any #pragma would cause the compiler to start nethack
22:34:25 <oklofok> i could easily believe an implementation that increments twice.
22:34:38 <Slereah7> "Use the fuzziest, vaguest most general terminology you can come up with, especially for variable names. handle is a great example a handle to what? processData is a great method name. Was there ever a method written that could not be so described? It cleverly hides any clue to what it does behind a cloud of ambiguity."
22:34:48 <tusho> it started towers of hanoi in emacs
22:35:13 <SimonRC> I recall it had some fallbacks too
22:35:44 <Slereah7> "Leaving bugs in your programs gives the maintenance programmer who comes along later something interesting to do. A well done bug should leave absolutely no clue as to when it was introduced or where. The laziest way to accomplish this is simply never to test your code."
22:35:57 <Slereah7> This man was probably not loved much in his company.
22:36:39 <SimonRC> but how would people know that the bugs were his?
22:38:32 <Slereah7> Computer languages are gradually evolving to become more fool proof. Using state of the art languages is unmanly. Insist on using the oldest language you can get away with, octal machine language if you can (Like Hans und Frans, I am no girlie man; I am so virile I used to code by plugging gold tipped wires into a plugboard of IBM unit record equipment (punch cards), or by poking holes in paper tape with a hand punch), failing t
22:39:21 <Slereah7> "Sprinkle your code with bits of inline assembler just for fun. Almost no one understands assembler anymore. Even a few lines of it can stop a maintenance programmer cold."
22:40:54 <Slereah7> I don't know most functions or whatever
22:41:17 <Slereah7> "Be never vigilant of the next Y2K. If you ever spot something that could sneak up on a fixed deadline and destroy all life in the western hemisphere then do not openly discuss it until we are under the critical 4 year event window of panic and opportunity."
22:42:02 <oklofok> Slereah7: you don't know most functions?
22:42:07 <oklofok> manuals / make them yourself
22:42:23 <Slereah7> "Rest assured that we all see the threat too. Sleep sound at night knowing that long after youve been forced into early retirement you will be begged to come back at a logarithmically increased hourly rate!"
22:42:25 <oklofok> i program almost exclusively python, and i haven't read the standard functions lies
22:42:58 <Slereah7> Beside computation/output/input, I don't know much.
22:43:19 <Slereah7> I'm terrible at file handling, and more complicated things, I do not know
22:43:40 <oklofok> file handling is done like the api tells you to
22:49:18 <oklofok> Slereah7: well giyf, but application programming interface
22:51:47 <Slereah7> Is it reasonable to google "api"?
22:52:09 <Slereah7> But googling TLA isn't always.
22:52:40 <Slereah7> "You dont need great skill to write unmaintainable code. Just leap in and start coding. Keep in mind that management still measures productivity in lines of code even if you have to delete most of it later."
22:53:20 <tusho> Slereah7: Google 'python manual'
22:53:22 <tusho> Read the section on files.
22:54:14 <Slereah7> But sometimes, I just have no idea what it is talking about.
22:54:30 <tusho> Slereah7: Then read it again.
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23:00:48 <Slereah7> "There is another way of interpreting this essay, as a terrorist manual."
23:02:06 <Slereah7> "There are millions of ways to insidiously corrupt data and program source. America is a sitting duck for a patient terrorist with a small bank account and a copy of this essay."
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