00:00:02 <someguy> lament banned him for some reason
00:00:38 <GregorR> <tusho> KICKBAN ME DAMNIT LAMENT
00:01:07 <someguy> is that a reason to actually kickban him? i think not
00:03:42 <oklopol> looks like tusho finally went too far
00:03:58 <someguy> AnMaster: same irc bouncy thingy
00:04:02 <oklopol> yeah, that's weird, isn't it illegal to have the same name for two kids?
00:04:16 <AnMaster> someguy, he used n=tusho though
00:04:26 <someguy> AnMaster: i guess he overrid the default then
00:04:32 <someguy> which apparently is ehird, I guess
00:04:45 <AnMaster> someguy, so you aren't as computer literate as he is?
00:05:10 <someguy> AnMaster: you could say that, you could also say I'm very lazy
00:05:24 <AnMaster> I'd call ehird pretty lazy too
00:05:43 <AnMaster> what with him prefering python to C and such
00:06:14 <AnMaster> someguy, please tell him that you think cfunge is very nice
00:06:26 <someguy> AnMaster: he probably reads logs, you know
00:06:50 <lament> someguy: you realize that as soon as i unban him, he would come back and ask to be banned again?
00:07:02 <AnMaster> you know he *could* log on with a different nick
00:07:06 <someguy> lament: oh come on, he's not that silly
00:07:46 <AnMaster> * lament sets modes [#esoteric +b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*]
00:08:08 <someguy> why should he have to? just unban him jeez
00:08:54 <someguy> lament: just unban my brother
00:08:55 <AnMaster> lament, "all"? you mean me too?
00:09:00 <lament> No. You're all nuts except oklopol.
00:09:21 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*.
00:09:45 -!- tusho has joined.
00:09:47 <Slereah> AnMaster : Becayse you're dangling between my legs.
00:10:02 <Slereah> tusho : This means exactly what you think it means.
00:10:21 <Slereah> You will not silence the truth, AnMaster
00:10:44 -!- someguy has quit ("bye").
00:11:07 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't think my brother is interested in esolangs
00:11:12 <tusho> (Regardless of how much he exists, which is none.)
00:11:32 * tusho watches lament ban him for GROSS IMPERSONATION
00:11:39 <AnMaster> lament, well I could help sharing the burden of being an op if you want
00:12:19 <lament> tusho: here's a better idea
00:12:21 -!- lament has set channel mode: +o tusho.
00:12:25 <lament> there, now you can ban yourself
00:12:31 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o lament.
00:12:32 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +b lament!*@*.
00:12:37 <AnMaster> (and yes I'm op in other places, even oper on a network, so I know how irritating all those "could I be an op/oper please" questions are!)
00:13:02 <tusho> AnMaster: am i DOING IT WRONG, though?
00:13:17 <oklopol> lament's brother lameguy is gonna be so pissed.
00:13:23 <tusho> AnMaster: i was banning a disruptive character who bans people without warning. duh.
00:13:48 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol.
00:13:55 <tusho> let's start a new era of #esoteric, oklopol
00:14:02 <tusho> one free from the draconian constraints of lament!
00:14:14 <Slereah> A CHAN THAT WILL LAST A THOUSAND YEAR!
00:14:34 <tusho> oklopol: are you with me?? huh??
00:14:35 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol.
00:14:46 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o Slereah.
00:15:22 <tusho> well. this is cool.
00:15:33 <tusho> AnMaster: you'll unban lam
00:15:36 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol.
00:15:45 <Slereah> Just give ops to everyone, it will be faster.
00:15:49 <tusho> AnMaster: you wanted me to
00:15:54 <tusho> Slereah: nah, i prefer exclusive cabals
00:16:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I wanted him to unban you too
00:16:40 <AnMaster> in fact I'm on my own side, the side of freedom and unbanning
00:16:58 <tusho> AnMaster: we don't stand for that side here
00:17:04 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +b AnMaster!*@*.
00:17:14 <tusho> what a fitting way to go out.
00:17:17 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -b AnMaster!*@*.
00:17:23 <Slereah> What if I banned everyone?
00:17:27 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o Slereah.
00:17:30 <tusho> good luck with that
00:17:40 <AnMaster> tusho, please I ask you to unban lament
00:17:44 * tusho considers writing a bot that ops just him when he joins and putting it in here, then opping it
00:18:05 <AnMaster> tusho, there are ways to get around it using chanserv to ask you to unban yourself
00:18:14 <AnMaster> I don't know if lament got that access
00:18:14 <tusho> yeah but he's not using them
00:18:52 <AnMaster> lament if you are reading the logs run:
00:19:00 <tusho> AnMaster: i doubt he cares
00:19:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: i doubt he doesn't know
00:19:29 <oklopol> he was one of the founders here
00:19:40 <oklopol> so i'm pretty sure he knows some shit about freenode
00:20:42 <Slereah> Can we drop the whole mod thing and just discuss stupid languages?
00:21:20 -!- oppiebot has joined.
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00:21:27 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho_.
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00:21:51 -!- oppiebot has set channel mode: +o tusho.
00:21:58 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
00:22:00 <Slereah> Fun fact : Concurency notation and BNF notation do not go well together.
00:22:01 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho.
00:22:15 <tusho> ok, now all we need is oppiebot to keep its connection
00:22:20 <tusho> we need one op at all times
00:22:20 <augur> tusho, does it work for your ip only or just your nick?
00:22:25 <tusho> to restore oppiebot's stuff
00:22:34 <tusho> augur: err, my nick... nice exploit there
00:22:38 <Slereah> For instance, concurent process are defined by P ::= [...] | P1 | P2 | [...]
00:22:59 <tusho> augur: how do I check services identification?
00:23:01 <augur> slereah: im not really sure BNF is meant to model processes...
00:23:08 <augur> tusho: no fucking clue. i dontknow shit about irc.
00:23:16 <Slereah> No, but it is meant to describe syntax
00:23:20 <Slereah> And processes have a syntax
00:23:29 <augur> eh.. processes i wouldnt say have syntax
00:23:41 <augur> only code has syntax
00:23:59 <Slereah> The pi book get around this by making the BNF | longer than the concurrency |
00:24:05 <augur> no, pi calculus is a language that represents a model :P
00:24:11 <Slereah> But at a glance, it's not obvious
00:24:21 <Slereah> Oh stop nitpicking, you cockgoblin.
00:24:27 <augur> but theres a difference!
00:24:38 <augur> the map is not the territory!
00:24:49 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:24:54 -!- oppiebot has joined.
00:24:57 <Slereah> But in a book, they use notations, augur
00:25:02 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol.
00:25:02 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oplopol.
00:25:08 -!- oplopol has changed nick to oklopol.
00:25:08 <Slereah> They can't put abstract concepts in a book.
00:25:13 <tusho> once i get this working
00:25:21 <augur> thats just weird, slereah.
00:25:42 <augur> BNFs shouldnt define processes, only languages
00:25:53 -!- tusho has changed nick to dasf.
00:25:55 <Slereah> And it defines the language to express processes
00:26:00 -!- augur has changed nick to tusho_.
00:26:00 -!- tusho has joined.
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00:26:25 <Slereah> It's not actually pi calculus in the chapter I'm reading, it's the more restricted "concurent processes"
00:26:26 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
00:26:33 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to augur.
00:26:37 <augur> so it works then tusho?
00:27:21 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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00:27:26 <oklopol> parents decided to buy me about $800 worth of books as a present
00:27:49 -!- tusho has joined.
00:27:55 -!- tusho has left (?).
00:28:00 <Slereah> Are you going to buy a hundred cheap books, or eight expensive ones?
00:28:06 -!- tusho has joined.
00:28:12 <tusho> i wish to fuck things in the ass
00:28:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -b lament!*@*.
00:28:14 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
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00:28:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
00:28:30 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o dasf.
00:28:39 <dasf> i just wrote that bot for nothing!
00:28:39 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
00:28:53 <lament> what did you write it in?
00:28:54 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:29:06 <dasf> lament: python, you like python right?
00:29:11 <augur> lol. dasf, you shouldn't de-opped the bot :P
00:29:19 <lament> right, i won't ban you then :)
00:29:21 <dasf> how will you recover from my emotional damage lament?
00:29:27 <dasf> augur: darn, that was the bug then
00:29:37 <lament> dasf: the question is when, not how
00:29:45 <dasf> lament: when, then
00:29:55 <dasf> fuck you lament
00:30:05 <dasf> fuck you even more, lament
00:30:24 <dasf> lament: how about opping me so i can ban myself for such gross conduct
00:30:48 <lament> after last time, i think i learned not to trust you with ops
00:30:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o dasf.
00:31:00 <dasf> lament: i was posessed by demons last time
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00:33:41 <Slereah> Tusho, stop being the scourge of the earth.
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00:36:55 <tusho> no, augur, it means dickwad
00:37:10 <augur> its too pretty a name to mean dickward
00:37:25 <tusho> i was lying through my teeth
00:38:24 <oklopol> if urbandictionary doesn't know it, it doesn't exist
00:38:37 -!- oppiebot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:38:46 <oklopol> well, that is what i've always assumed
00:38:48 <augur> ::grabs slereahs tusho::
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00:40:44 <Slereah> It is somehow incredible that it does not feature man on man sodomy, but it's still a good movie.
00:40:56 -!- tusho has left (?).
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00:41:29 <tusho> oklopol: I like your new esolang
00:42:01 <augur> whats oklopols new esolang?
00:42:56 <augur> its not oklopols, its both of ours :P
00:43:15 <augur> its oklopol and my's babeh
00:43:22 <augur> im not sure which of us is the mother tho
00:43:31 <augur> oklopol, did i make you preggorz, or did you make me preggorz?
00:44:03 <tusho> obviously it is magical
00:44:07 <Slereah> I think you came up with the idea.
00:44:31 <augur> i came up with a lot of it, especially syntax, and oklopol provides vast insight
00:44:51 <Slereah> Then let me give you some advice.
00:44:54 <augur> so i spooged esocum into oklopol and he got preggorz?
00:44:59 <Slereah> The same I give for every new esolang.
00:45:07 <augur> its not an esolang either :P
00:45:11 <Slereah> Make an instruction that will play the Super Mario theme.
00:45:21 <tusho> apart from your crappy implementation of it
00:45:24 <augur> slereah: BRILLIANT. MUST HAVE.
00:45:44 <Slereah> Fact : My first esolang was capable of playing the Super Mario theme.
00:45:57 <Slereah> Although I only made a program for the Monkey Island theme
00:46:50 <augur> tusho: what about the language do you like?
00:47:08 <tusho> augur: i could make a silly game with it easily
00:47:23 <augur> what sort of game? :P
00:47:48 <Slereah> "Everytime an esolang is a brainfuck derivative, take a shot"
00:47:59 <tusho> a silly jumpy thingy.
00:48:14 <oklopol> tusho: reactance is mine and augur's, like straw and ob preferable, for exclusive liking of my esolangs
00:48:24 <oklopol> ob is the one i use for the obt game
00:48:26 <augur> slereah: i dont think there are any other reactive esolangs
00:48:43 <tusho> augur: you just admitted it's an esolang
00:48:49 <augur> oklopol, slereah has decided that it was you who got preggorz with reactance
00:48:58 <Slereah> For every original esolang, drink the whole bottle
00:49:00 <augur> tusho: you wont let it go so i might as well.
00:49:11 <augur> slereah: woo, i guess we get drunk tonight :o
00:49:22 <oklopol> augur: weren't you the butt receiver type exclusively?
00:49:31 <augur> yeah but not according to slereah
00:49:40 -!- ihope has joined.
00:49:48 <oklopol> ihope: ;DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
00:50:02 <ihope> Yay, I'm liked :-)
00:50:40 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o oklopol.
00:51:00 <ihope> If I mention rootnomic, I imagine I'll get banned. :-P
00:51:02 -!- tusho has set channel mode: +o ihope.
00:51:12 -!- ihope has set channel mode: -oo oppiebot tusho.
00:51:12 <tusho> if oppiebot leaves
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00:51:30 -!- tusho has set channel mode: -o oklopol.
00:52:04 <augur> anyone ever heard aza raskin talk?
00:52:13 <augur> he sounds like a kid trying to be a grownup
00:52:16 <augur> its fucking annoying
00:52:29 <tusho> whatever. the stuff he does is cool
00:52:30 <augur> because theres a huge difference between a kid trying to sound mature, and actually BEING mature
00:52:42 <augur> i agree, his stuff is great, but his manner of speech is annoying
00:53:11 <augur> im actually going to be incorporating a lot of humane interface ideas into something im working on
00:54:09 <Slereah> I'm too skinny to have a flabby butt.
00:54:13 <tusho> lololololololololol
00:54:20 <tusho> i didn't actually think of that when i chose this name
00:54:34 <tusho> i just picked something nice looking that didn't get anything much on google
00:54:44 <tusho> augur: oh, i was pronouncing it tuh-show
00:58:22 <augur> http://xkcd.com/437/
01:01:11 <augur> tusho, have you watched SICP yet?
01:01:52 <Slereah> Because it is full of urine
01:02:00 <augur> your moms full of urine
01:03:33 <augur> tusho, do you have the full syntax and evaluation model for reactance?
01:03:59 <augur> you -> #reactance and ill provide
01:04:53 <augur> so you can start writing your game. :P
01:05:22 <augur> ok, but itll clutter the place. :P
01:06:13 <augur> ok so: assignments like var = expression
01:06:20 <augur> sets var to the current value of expression
01:06:56 <augur> var := expression creates a new variable var in the current frame if one doesnt exist
01:07:04 <augur> sort of like schemes define
01:07:36 <augur> exp -> var is a reaction
01:07:42 <lament> did you choose := because it looks like cock and balls?
01:07:54 <augur> no, we chose := because it was a simple modification of =
01:08:07 <tusho> exp -> var is a reaction ok
01:08:24 <augur> any time one of the variables in exp changes its value, var is immediately updated
01:08:30 <augur> if we says x*x -> y
01:08:38 <augur> y is immediately updated to 25
01:08:48 <augur> y <- x*x is equivalent
01:09:07 <augur> :-> and <-: make new scopes for their target variables
01:09:26 <augur> x = y is to x := y what y -> x is to y :-> x
01:09:49 <augur> you also have conditional reactions like x > 5 ? x -> y : x -> z
01:10:21 <augur> which says that if x is greater then y, all changes of x's value goes into y
01:10:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:10:25 <augur> otherwise they go into z
01:10:30 <tusho> what about functiony thingies
01:10:36 <augur> well just wait for those :p
01:10:40 <tusho> mouse(x,y) -> cursor(x,y)
01:10:46 <augur> oh, those arent functiony things
01:10:55 <augur> ok so for that you have to understand shorthands
01:11:21 <augur> similarly, x,y -> z,w is short for
01:11:37 <tusho> i'm familiar with that syntax
01:11:43 <augur> so doing something like
01:11:51 <augur> mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x,y)
01:12:01 <tusho> mouse.x -> thing.x
01:12:07 <augur> mouse.y -> thing.y
01:12:20 <tusho> mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x/2,y/2)
01:12:22 <augur> so we allow this sort of paralleling to be deep within paranthesizing
01:12:30 <tusho> that makes you have to move the mouse twice to get one move of the thing
01:12:37 <augur> foo.(a,bar.(b,c)) is valid, for instance
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01:13:05 <augur> that would be a declarative statement, and we dont know if we're going to have declarativity
01:13:14 <augur> the targets of reactions can only be variables
01:13:32 <augur> if you want thing to move half as far as mouse
01:13:38 <tusho> augur: have declarativity
01:13:42 <augur> mouse.(x,y)/2 -> thing.(x,y)
01:13:44 <tusho> mouse.(x,y) -> thing.(x/2,y/2) = my dream
01:13:47 <Slereah_> Fun fact : The pi book talks of reaction :o
01:13:54 <Slereah_> Although I doubt it's the same.
01:14:00 <augur> sure, but that wouldnt do what you said anyway, tusho :p
01:14:49 <augur> damnit, i have to go in five minutes
01:14:49 <tusho> how could i, say, make 'enemy' always move away from 'player'
01:14:53 <augur> let me finish with this :P
01:14:55 <tusho> given (enemy,player).(x,y)
01:15:06 <augur> so functions are just lambdas
01:15:24 <augur> you do @ -> argnames
01:15:47 <augur> that says "put the passed args into a, b, c"
01:15:54 <tusho> augur: that's like perl
01:15:58 <tusho> specifically, perl's @_ array
01:16:06 <augur> to output, you do val -> @
01:16:16 <augur> so a lambda that adds might be
01:16:36 <augur> you can also ofcourse do @ = ...
01:16:40 <tusho> augur: needs moar sugar
01:16:48 <augur> to apply a lambda, you do
01:16:56 <augur> : lambda arg1 arg2 ...
01:17:06 <augur> i actually want to sugar it like
01:17:22 <augur> i dont know if oklopol is in agreement tho
01:17:30 <tusho> augur: my sugar is more awesome
01:17:33 <augur> ok so heres how function application works tho
01:17:38 <tusho> anyway answer my q. :P
01:17:55 <augur> you said "given ..."
01:18:02 <augur> there was a line above it
01:18:51 <augur> move away like if player moves towards enemy, enemy moves in the same direction, maintaining distance?
01:18:57 <augur> you'd do some magic. :p
01:19:07 <augur> ok so function application can apply in reactions too
01:19:12 <tusho> augur: I just mean,
01:19:17 <augur> says if a ever changes, put :foo a into b
01:19:18 <tusho> the enemy's x and ys are always away from the player
01:19:20 <tusho> what reaction is that?
01:19:26 <augur> itd be slightly more complicated
01:19:30 <tusho> player.(x,y) -> enemy.(x+1,y+1)?
01:20:03 <augur> any reaction like that will maintain a constant relative position
01:20:21 <augur> which means if player goes away from enemy, enemy follows
01:20:34 <augur> if player moves sideways, the so does enemy
01:20:38 <tusho> here's a way to fix that
01:20:42 <tusho> give a history of the same reactions
01:20:54 <tusho> so that you could find the players direction by the previous trigger of that reaction
01:21:05 <augur> we're not entirely sure how thats going to look
01:21:09 <augur> but something like
01:21:13 <tusho> specifically, if player's x is one more than the previous time, then make your x less
01:21:25 <tusho> what's it got to do with delays augur
01:21:28 <augur> or maybe x{-5} -> y
01:21:40 <tusho> nothing to do with delays
01:21:56 <tusho> you could see the player.x and player.y
01:22:00 <tusho> from the last time it was triggered
01:22:06 <tusho> and thus, depending on how it's changed
01:22:09 <tusho> determine their direciton
01:22:11 <augur> thats just delay one change
01:22:21 <tusho> augur: how do you get the last value, then?
01:22:24 <tusho> you need the topmost value and the second topmost
01:22:30 <augur> tho yes, having x{t} would be more convenient
01:22:31 <tusho> and in other cases often more
01:22:34 <augur> we've not worked it all out yet
01:22:59 <augur> also, we need some way of doing just change-detection i think.
01:23:03 <oklopol> for "moving away from", you need to access old state.
01:23:04 <augur> i need to get going
01:23:30 <tusho> oklopol: that's what I said
01:23:30 <augur> oklopol, explain how function calls behave, as reaction instantiation
01:24:06 <augur> an dont fuck it up, otherwise i'll poke you. :P
01:24:11 <tusho> oklopol: and explain how to access old state for left expr!
01:24:23 <augur> you cant access values for whole expressions
01:25:28 <oklopol> tusho: that's not defined yet, at all.
01:25:38 <oklopol> i mean, except for delayed stuff
01:25:38 <tusho> oklopol: well, give me a random idea
01:26:04 <augur> we're maybe using delays, or we're using x{t}
01:26:10 <tusho> neither makes any sense to me, augur
01:26:22 <augur> x{-5 ms} would be the value of x 5ms ago
01:26:32 <augur> x{-5} would be the value of x 5 changes ago
01:26:37 <augur> x{-1} would be the last value
01:26:44 <augur> x{0} is the current value
01:27:16 <augur> which is semantically identical to a delay.
01:27:59 <oklopol> #enemy.(x,y) + (player.(x,y) - %player.(x,y)) -> enemy.(x,y), where # and % are random prefixes, # means "do not trigger on change on this expression" and % means "access the result before change in expression's result"
01:28:18 <oklopol> i failed there, because now it'd move the same way as player
01:28:41 <oklopol> and, this doesn't work, because tuples aren't data, i don't know how to make vecotrs
01:29:49 <oklopol> # was needed there to avoid infloop, % is when you need derivative of change
01:29:56 <oklopol> well, not derivative of change
01:30:05 <oklopol> that's a second order derivative
01:30:12 <oklopol> anyway, that was very random, hope you liked it.
01:31:52 <oklopol> btw, even more random idea: ZNYOGFYU is a mnemonic for doing exactly that.
01:34:34 <oklopol> move enemy away from player
01:37:22 <tusho> oklopol: how is it a mnemonic
01:41:36 <Slereah_> I wonder, is the variable bounding necessary in pi calculus?
01:43:10 <oklopol> Slereah_: ask again when i feel like thinking :P
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01:44:47 <Slereah_> So far it looks like local variable naming
01:45:37 <Slereah_> I hope there's an example where it can't just be replaced by renaming variables
01:47:04 <ihope> We're not talking about a calculus programming language, are we?
01:49:56 <oklopol> Slereah_: yeah, that would be a bit stupid
01:50:03 <oklopol> but, i know at least that the scope can change
01:50:20 <oklopol> it can extend if you send its value out of the inner scope
01:50:34 <oklopol> or something like that, i don't really remember that well
02:47:39 <augur> i see oklopol didnt explain function application
02:47:56 <augur> also, oklopol, your notation sucks. its too limited. :P
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02:58:54 <augur> oklopol, i like the idea of # as a way of pushing values to time-of-definition or some such
02:59:43 <augur> #(y+2)*#(y+2) + 3*z -> w
03:00:20 <augur> tho im providing let sugar in my implementation so.. :P
03:00:36 <augur> let x = y+2 in x(x + 3*z -> w
03:00:58 <augur> or x*x + 3*z where x = y+2
03:04:38 <Slereah_> Apparently, every process has a standard form like n (a,b,c,...) (P|Q|R|S|T|...)
03:04:49 <Slereah_> What is your use, variable bounding!
03:06:54 <augur> maybe we DO need to meet up, so i can teach you proper english :P
03:06:59 <Slereah_> As said, so far it looks like local variable declaration.
03:07:30 <Slereah_> I'll sit in your lap and you can teach me how to use my tongue.
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03:46:20 <augur> bondage is either slavery or sex.
03:47:47 <Slereah_> So little man, do you have any idea if variable binding is actually indispensible in pi?
03:49:58 <augur> i have no understanding of pi calc
03:50:25 <Slereah_> Well, imagine a bunch of dudes if you will.
03:50:42 <Slereah_> One of this man is named Alice (it's better not to think why)
03:51:16 <Slereah_> Now, imagine that they have some sort of communication channel.
03:51:46 <Slereah_> This is the essence of pi calculus.
03:52:07 <Slereah_> The calculus is a bunch of messages exchanged between the dudes.
03:52:37 <Slereah_> It has the following thingies :
03:52:53 <Slereah_> If you have two processes, P and Q.
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04:23:04 <Slereah_> A pi calculus example in the book is a mobile phone system
04:23:14 <Slereah_> For some reason, there's a biscuit truck in the schematics
04:26:47 <augur> dude, biscuit truck
04:26:51 <augur> ofcourse, it all makes sense
04:27:28 <Slereah_> Apparently, each vehicle has a mobile phone in it
04:27:37 <Slereah_> and I suppose that biscuit trucks need mobile phones
04:27:45 <augur> atleast one mobile phone
04:28:06 <lament> there's a natural isomorphism between mobile phones and bisquit trucks
04:29:32 <Slereah_> It's sort of a recurring theme, somehow
04:29:50 <Slereah_> One of the first example of communicating system was a vending machine, with tea and coffee.
04:30:09 <lament> coffee is all about communication
04:30:29 <Slereah_> For you see, if you input two pence in the machine
04:31:02 <Slereah_> It was used for an important point about determinism in communicating systems.
04:32:41 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/biskit.jpg
04:42:27 <Slereah_> Maybe I should fit the biscuit truck somewhere in Limp
05:30:50 <Slereah_> "We begin with the monadic version of the calculus"
05:30:55 <Slereah_> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:31:11 <Slereah_> I hope that's not what I think.
05:31:29 <Slereah_> It's apparently monadic in the old sense of the word though.
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12:13:50 <oklopol> augur: also, oklopol, your notation sucks. its too limited. :P <<< how so?
12:30:01 <oklopol> Slereah_: that normal form does suggest variable bondage is futile
12:31:35 <oklopol> Slereah_: is the pi just for fun or do you have like a course or smth?
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14:52:18 <tusho> ais523: well, I didn't have my irc client focused
14:52:29 <ais523> so it was a case of who happened to focus first
14:52:30 <tusho> ais523: does it notice you whenever I join?
14:52:42 <tusho> i should set that up
14:52:49 <ais523> it notices me whenever ehird joins
14:53:40 <tusho> ais523: I wonder if I tell it to highlight ais523, it'll highlight your joins too
14:53:50 <tusho> really, though, I need it to auto-focus whenever I log on and you're there
14:53:56 <ais523> heh, mine highlights server joins
14:54:00 <ais523> not just channel joins
14:54:11 -!- oklopol has changed nick to hiall.
14:54:20 <ais523> so I can get ready while waiting for you to connect
14:54:28 <tusho> ais523: hiall is oklopol
14:54:29 <hiall> i'm so gonna own you at greeting now.
14:54:36 <ais523> tusho: I know, I just saw the nick change
14:54:41 -!- hiall has changed nick to oklopol.
14:54:44 <tusho> ah, i thought you saw it as a join
14:54:50 <tusho> i.e. it looked like a join thing but you didn't actually read it
14:54:53 <ais523> nah, they look different to me
14:55:02 <ais523> *** oklopol is now known as hiall
14:55:09 <ais523> --> tusho has joined this channel
14:55:25 <tusho> colloquy's default style is pretty retarded
14:55:29 <tusho> it makes all stuff like that gray and in the middle
14:55:32 <ais523> anyway, I have to reboot, I'll bbiab
14:55:33 <tusho> also, it calls things 'chat rooms'
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14:55:58 <tusho> 18:57:01 <augur> tushotushotusho
14:56:02 <tusho> did you not notice i was not in the room
14:57:01 <tusho> 20:19:46 --- mode: ChanServ set -o oppiebot
14:57:04 <tusho> very disappointed.
14:57:28 <oklopol> everyone knows you're a logmongler
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15:00:26 <tusho> haha, this opera fanboy idiot is sending me private messages on reddit
15:00:37 <tusho> first he replied to someone complaining opera was not free software, with
15:00:40 <tusho> 'Of course the world's best browser is free!! Has been for years :)'
15:00:45 <ais523> tusho: anyway, the private back was to say back before you could wb me
15:00:50 <tusho> i pointed out that he should look up 'free software'
15:00:56 <tusho> then he private messaged me
15:01:00 <tusho> 'What did you mean by opera not being free? Link?'
15:01:07 <ais523> I did it in the region of time between me joining the server and me autojoining the channels
15:01:08 <tusho> I replied again telling him to look up free software
15:01:15 <tusho> and he's replied with this lovely ditty:
15:01:16 <ais523> tusho: maybe you should say FLOSS, it's less ambiguous
15:01:18 <tusho> [[Opera was initially paid software, but then became free a few years ago.
15:01:18 <tusho> http://www.download.com/Opera/3000-2356_4-10005498.html http://www.opera.com/free/
15:01:18 <tusho> note the word FREE.
15:01:18 <tusho> Shame there are ignorants like you around, especially on reddit, who blindly blurt out the stupidest thing on their minds that they can't be bothered to substantiate.
15:01:19 <tusho> So, you're either deluded or a retard. Now, YOU FAIL.
15:01:20 <tusho> Don't bother answering.]]
15:01:30 <tusho> So I'm either 12, mentally retarded ... or deluded. :-P
15:02:54 <tusho> I specifically replied
15:02:58 <tusho> 'go look up free software'
15:03:02 <tusho> if you google free software, you get relevant results
15:03:06 <tusho> he obviously didn't and replied blindly
15:03:08 <tusho> thus, I have no sympathy
15:03:10 <ais523> you probably get irrelevant results too
15:03:24 <tusho> ais523: first result - FSF
15:03:32 <tusho> then a few results on, the wikipedia definition and FSF's definition
15:03:54 <tusho> perhaps i should have tried 'open source'
15:04:06 <tusho> but then he'd yell at me for being a FANATICAL DELUDED RETARD WHO CAN'T APRPECIATE THE MOST AWESOME POWER OF OPERA
15:04:33 <ais523> Opera does have some good features, but they tend to be copied by Firefox extensions
15:04:50 <tusho> opera's rendering engine used to be far superior, though
15:05:09 <ais523> well, Firefox's is excellent, but Opera's being even better makes sense
15:05:26 <tusho> ais523: _used_ to be better
15:05:41 <tusho> a lot of Opera's marketshare comes from their mobile browsers, anyway
15:05:44 <tusho> they're the de-facto standard
15:05:55 <ais523> yes, FF would have trouble running on a mobile phone
15:07:57 <tusho> Lawl, that email-spamming social network site that was on reddit a while ago just emailed me.
15:08:02 <tusho> 'Please respond or your friend will think you said no :('
15:08:11 <tusho> HOW SAD :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9999999999
15:08:23 <ais523> an interesting chain message variant
15:08:40 <tusho> ais523: it asks for your email password
15:08:43 <tusho> and invites everyone on your list
15:08:52 <tusho> by 'respond' they mean 'click the register button'
15:08:58 <tusho> and 'add this person as your friend'
15:09:00 <ais523> especially for non-webmail clients
15:09:08 <ais523> and I don't have an address list
15:09:10 <tusho> ais523: it only supports a few, iirc
15:09:20 <tusho> and i think it just does it to anyone you have ever emailed
15:09:22 <tusho> or recieved email from
15:09:24 <ais523> I just use reply, or remember addresses, or look in my sent items
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15:09:39 <tusho> gmail automatically maintains my address book
15:09:43 <tusho> if i email people a lot they go higher up in it
15:09:47 <tusho> rarely emailed people drop off it
15:11:04 <oklopol> i only answer, i never send emails otherwise.
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16:00:20 <tusho> Woohoo! It's quite likely that sweden will get its own firewall of china.
16:01:33 <tusho> ais523: http://swartz.typepad.com/texplorer/2008/06/mayday-mayday-internet-wall-of-china---around-sweden.html
16:02:31 <tusho> Not 'quite likely'
16:02:34 <tusho> [[Good thing that this is on reddit, but the law was passed yesterday... :(]]
16:04:02 <oklopol> 100% of finnish traffic goes through 'em
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16:04:30 <ais523> looks like Tor may end up getting a lot more use over in Sweden, then
16:09:01 <ais523> http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/spoon-business/spoon-business-200806/msg00123.html
16:09:01 <ais523> that retroactivity's so confused that it doesn't even make sense in Feather
16:09:01 <ais523> normally I'd post that to #ircnomic, but really, some things deserve to be in #esoteric
16:13:28 <tusho> ais523: could you express it in feather, though?
16:13:48 <ais523> tusho: a retroactive Feather change has to be legal in the situation that was retroactively changed from
16:13:57 <tusho> ais523: what would happen if you wrote that, then?
16:13:58 <ais523> so a change can change the situation to make it have been illegal
16:14:23 <ais523> tusho: nothing, it would be inexpressible, assuming that CANNOT in B Nomic == inexpressible in Feather
16:15:18 <tusho> ais523: so it would be a syntax error?
16:15:27 <tusho> what if you made it not one
16:15:39 <tusho> oh, and is a feather compiler possible? :P
16:15:46 <ais523> tusho: the change has to be legal in the version of the program's occurence that happened
16:16:07 <ais523> so you can retroactively make what you just did illegal, but not do something illegal that retroactively makes itself legal
16:16:17 <ais523> the other way leads to paradoxes very quickly
16:16:32 <ais523> oh, and a Feather compiler would have to bundle an interp
16:16:41 <ais523> because the interp is retroactively modifiable
16:16:45 <ais523> and therefore has to exist
16:17:11 <ais523> e.g. you can get the source code for a Feather interp by first retroactively modifying the language to expose the source code of all functions, and then looking at it
16:18:16 <tusho> opTypeNames is not defined wtf.
16:20:09 <tusho> GMAIL NOTIFIER STOP WELCOMING ME TO AGORA-BUSINESS
16:20:13 <tusho> THAT WAS SENT LIKE YEARS AGO
16:20:19 * tusho marks everything read
16:20:36 <tusho> 'All 3352 conversations in All Mail are selected. Clear selection'
16:20:45 <tusho> I only got this email in 2007
16:20:50 <AnMaster> tusho, haven't checked email a lot?
16:21:16 <tusho> AnMaster: No, I just ignore a lot of stuff
16:27:19 <tusho> ais523: eval() doesn't inject into global scope. bah.
16:27:22 <tusho> I guess I need window.eval
16:31:12 <tusho> ais523: I think we need #feather, because js2cps is a pretty big thingy
16:31:15 <tusho> and I find myself flooding about it a lot
16:31:28 <ais523> tusho: #feather already exists
16:31:33 <ais523> about some other project with the same name
16:32:07 <tusho> ais523: you could retroactively create it
16:32:20 <ais523> tusho: not valid under Freenode's current rules, sorry
16:32:51 <tusho> ais523: write an ircd in feather
16:33:02 <tusho> alternatively, #rehtaef because it reverses time
16:33:09 <ais523> tusho: ugh, Feather hates IO
16:33:13 <ais523> and it doesn't reverse time
16:33:21 <ais523> it just jumps back to a point in the past and does things differently
16:33:28 <ais523> which effects the future evolution of the program
16:33:30 <tusho> ais523: it occurs to me that Feathejs is like the ideal implementation of feather
16:33:36 <tusho> JS in a browser can do even less than squeak
16:33:42 <tusho> it's the most closed world of them all
16:33:56 <ais523> incidentally, Ubuntu sorts Squeak under "Education"
16:34:05 <ais523> rather than "Development" like other programming languages
16:34:22 <tusho> ais523: squeak is commonly used as an educational tool
16:34:29 <tusho> it should be under both, really
16:34:36 <ais523> well, it can't really be used for development
16:34:41 <ais523> because it only develops itself
16:34:42 <tusho> ais523: yes it can
16:34:48 <tusho> people deploy squeak-based apps all the time
16:34:54 <tusho> especially seaside apps
16:34:59 <ais523> tusho: well, you'd have to distribute Squeak with the app, and it's massive
16:35:08 <tusho> you just distribute the image
16:35:16 <tusho> or if you're targetting people without squeak
16:35:24 <tusho> but you can minimize the actual executable
16:35:28 <tusho> and not include the standard image
16:35:44 * tusho tries to come up with a channel name that illustrates feather's retroactivity
16:36:03 <ais523> tusho: what about we talk about it on irc.eso-std.org?
16:36:18 <tusho> ais523: hm. it's an open programming language project though
16:36:30 <ais523> yes, but then we wouldn't need a channel name...
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16:36:48 <tusho> ais523: #feather-lang
16:36:53 <tusho> (to keep with #ruby-lang)
16:38:20 <tusho> ais523: irc.eso-std.org#canada?
16:38:36 <ais523> tusho: OK, let me join it
16:41:31 <jix> what's feather?
16:41:45 <ais523> jix: programming language
16:41:50 <ais523> originally loosely based on Smalltalk
16:41:55 <ais523> but ended up getting features of Haskell too
16:41:57 <tusho> jix: it lets you change time, retroactively
16:42:00 <ais523> its main feature is retroactive changes
16:42:01 <tusho> that's all you need to know
16:42:09 <ais523> where you can alter the value an object had at some point in the past
16:42:16 <ais523> that's the only way objects can be modified
16:42:45 <ais523> also, the language is completely reflective
16:42:58 <ais523> you can even modify the parser retroactively, and have your program parsed differently as a result
16:43:05 <ais523> initially, it's object-oriented, but you can change that
16:43:16 <ais523> I'm also making a functional version, protoFeather
16:43:25 <tusho> jix: 'uhm' is right
16:43:31 <ais523> which is designed be a lang that can retroactively change itself so it was object-oriented all along
16:43:32 <tusho> if you don't understand it, that's unsuprising )
16:43:40 <ais523> and thus become Feather
16:43:51 <tusho> ais523: feathejs should implement protoFeather
16:43:54 <tusho> but by default load a Feather image
16:43:56 <jix> but if you change the parser retroactively to not understand the program that changed it in the first place..
16:43:59 <jix> you get a paradoxon
16:44:05 <ais523> jix: then you get a syntax error
16:44:06 <tusho> jix: you'd get an error
16:44:18 <ais523> because the program no longer conforms to the syntax of the language
16:44:26 <tusho> ais523: does it handle the grandfather paradox?
16:44:30 <tusho> make the parent of an object never have existed
16:44:40 <ais523> then the object itself no longer exists either
16:44:50 <tusho> ais523: it's sci-fi time travel!
16:44:50 <ais523> the change made itself illegal
16:44:51 <jix> ok so make it change the syntax so that the program itself wouldn't have changed the syntax but still is valid syntax
16:44:53 <ais523> but that direction was fine
16:45:01 <ais523> jix: that's fine, then the program just does something else
16:45:14 <ais523> retroactive changes have to be consistent only in one direction
16:45:15 <jix> ais523: what would be the defined behaviour of such a case
16:45:25 <ais523> jix: the change is made as described by the old program
16:45:43 <ais523> the new program is incapable of making that change again, because it means something else
16:45:50 <ais523> in fact, you have to do that sort of thing to avoid timeloops
16:46:17 <ais523> where you make a retroactive change, and the resulting program tries to make the same change, and so on forever
16:46:23 <ais523> when that happens the interp goes into an infinite loop
16:46:26 <ais523> which is not particularly useful
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16:50:10 <jix> hmm what would be if the program is only run if the retroactivly change requested does change something acutally
16:50:38 <ais523> jix: finding ways to do that is one major part of my effort in Feather
16:50:51 <ais523> the issue is that functions can't be compared, at least not in general
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16:52:07 <ais523> anyway, adding a new method or property to an object seems to be a safe retroactive change to make
16:52:13 <ais523> because it's possible to tell if it was there
16:52:20 <ais523> changing an existing method is harder, though
16:58:40 <tusho> www.google.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again.
16:58:49 <jix> hmm nomic seems to be an interesting game...
16:59:06 <tusho> heh, how did jix find nomic?
16:59:14 <ais523> it manages to get itself into worse situations than esolangs, normally
16:59:15 <jix> tusho: uhm
16:59:20 <jix> someone posted a link
16:59:25 <ais523> tusho: probably he followed the link I posted
16:59:46 <tusho> though we still need comex to go there
17:00:00 <ais523> tusho: I can't find how to set a redirect at all
17:00:04 <ais523> it probably needs oper intervention
17:00:11 <tusho> ais523: No, I doubt it.
17:00:13 <tusho> I'll ask #freenode
17:00:55 <tusho> UdontKnow: set guard on, and set mlock +if #destination
17:01:00 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird.
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17:03:01 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird.
17:03:32 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho.
17:03:44 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird.
17:04:05 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho.
17:37:46 <tusho> GO AWAY. I WISH I HAD NEVER SAID HI
17:37:54 <tusho> YOU BROKE OUR ... SACRED BOND
17:38:00 <ais523> tusho: why can't Slereah_say RABBIT?
17:38:06 <Slereah_> tusho does not appreciate fine music.
17:38:10 <tusho> ais523: WE WERE SAYING HI TO HIM IN THE EXACTLY SAME WAY
17:38:13 <tusho> HE BROKE THAT SPECIAL BOND
17:38:26 <ais523> tusho: well, saying hi to yourself's a little stupid
17:38:34 <Slereah_> http://www.4chan.org/flash/?file=megaloop/megaloop3.swf&title=Megaloop+v3.0
17:38:36 <tusho> ais523: HE SHOULD HAVE KEPT IS DAMN MOUTH SHUT
17:39:10 <Slereah_> 18th button, then click on the big flashing button :o
17:39:54 <ais523> Slereah_: description? I choose not to look at things made in Flash
17:39:59 <ais523> and in fact don't have Flash installed
17:40:12 <Slereah_> It's said song, that contains the rabbit thing
17:40:24 <Slereah_> Actually "rub it", but in the context, it is moar rabbit.
17:41:29 <Slereah_> Context : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/Rub%20it.jpg
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17:51:36 <ais523> sorry, dodgy connection...
17:52:48 <Slereah_> It seems pi calculus is full of non-determinism :o
17:59:08 <oklopol> how far along the book did that occur to you? :P
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18:00:02 <Slereah_> Well, in the chapter that's actually about pi calculus
18:00:27 <Slereah_> I thought they would drop the + operator, since it's not in most pi calculus conventions
18:04:13 <Slereah_> Apparently, with the replication operator, you can't have a standard form
18:05:12 <Slereah_> n(a,b,c,d,...) (M1|M2|M3|...|Q1!|Q2!|Q3!|...)
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18:27:35 <Slereah_> I think I found an occurence where n can't be replaced :o
18:29:29 <Slereah_> It needs a fresh supply of local variables to not get confused with any of the ones it already sent.
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19:04:12 <tusho> Cool. Thunks were invented in 1961 for ALGOL 60.
19:12:47 <Slereah_> "The word thunk has at least three related meanings in computer science."
19:13:07 <Slereah_> Oh, delayed computation apparently
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19:25:47 <augur> a procedure of no arguments
19:27:23 <augur> wanna learn about how reactance handles function calls?
19:27:34 <ais523> augur: yes please, it could be useful for my degree
19:28:02 <Slereah_> ais523 is going for a degree in reactionism
19:28:37 <ais523> but VHDL is quite promininent in it
19:28:55 <augur> well i dont know if this is how VHDL does things, so dont rely on this :p
19:29:11 <ais523> I may end up having to reimplement it or something silly like that, that's how projects often go
19:29:48 <augur> so this is how functions work
19:29:56 <augur> suppose you have a simple function
19:30:32 <augur> when you apply it like x = :foo 1 2
19:30:58 <augur> those () should be {} sorry :p
19:31:06 <ais523> @ is function inputs/outputs, right?
19:31:14 <augur> sort of. youll see.
19:31:19 <tusho> ais523: @ is perl's @_, except if you write to it you return it.
19:31:31 <augur> the evaluator looks up foo, and finds that it's a 'lambda'
19:31:32 <ais523> I've been listening in #reactivity a while ago
19:31:46 <tusho> that channel doesn't exist
19:31:49 <augur> really, it finds that it's a sequence of sets and reactions
19:32:17 <augur> it then executes the sequence of sets and reactions in order
19:32:23 <augur> when it comes across something like @ -> ...
19:32:31 <ais523> maybe it was #reactance
19:32:34 <ais523> but it was a temp channel anyway
19:32:38 <ais523> so probably no longer exists
19:32:42 <augur> it says, ok, let me look at the arguments that were passed in
19:32:45 <augur> what are those arguments?
19:32:46 <tusho> ais523: wasn't temp
19:32:51 <tusho> augur has tried to stuff me in there twice
19:33:04 <ais523> augur: still listening
19:33:07 <augur> so it says, sure, @ == 1,2
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19:33:18 <augur> well if @ == 1,2, and @ -> a,b
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19:33:30 <augur> which is just a normal parallel reaction
19:34:02 <augur> so the evaluator creates these two reactions, 1 -> a, 2 -> b
19:34:31 <augur> and then it turns to a+b -> @
19:34:52 <augur> and it says, ok i need to now establish a reaction between a+b and whatever variable is on the output
19:34:59 <augur> but, uh oh, theres no variable on the output
19:35:05 <augur> i said x = :foo 1 2
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19:35:38 <ais523> what does that = mean?
19:35:40 <augur> even if i had said :foo 1 2 -> x there wouldnt be a variable that the APPLICATION is outputing to
19:35:53 <ais523> I mean, in the context of your lang
19:36:15 <augur> what the evaluator does, then, is when it evaluates something like x = :foo 1 2
19:36:22 <augur> it replaces :foo 1 2 with a dummy variable
19:36:39 <augur> and when it builds/executes the body of the function
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19:36:48 <augur> it replaces -> @ with -> that_dummy_variable
19:37:26 <ais523> ah, so it's pass-by-name
19:37:30 <ais523> but for results as well as arguments
19:37:39 <augur> if we were doing something like 1,2,3 -> @, it would replace :foo 1 2 with three dummy variables
19:38:03 <augur> so its sort of like a return value
19:38:09 <augur> so what function calls REALLY do
19:38:13 <augur> is they build new reactions
19:38:19 <augur> using dummy variables and so on
19:38:53 <augur> if you want, you can imagine this like this:
19:39:06 <augur> step 1: evaluate ":foo x y -> z"
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19:39:45 <augur> step 2: instantiate the body of foo somewhere, create @ -> a,b and a+b -> @
19:39:51 <augur> replace @ with x,y
19:40:13 <augur> step 4: replace @ with dummy
19:40:33 <augur> and repace :foo x y with dummy in :foo x y -> z
19:40:41 <augur> so now all we have is
19:40:55 <ais523> that's pass-by-name, basically
19:41:11 <augur> which is a trivial reaction set
19:41:28 <ais523> I think that's what VHDL does
19:41:36 <ais523> except it needs all input and output ports to be named explicitly
19:41:41 <ais523> so the syntax is a lot more unwieldy
19:42:12 <augur> well, we're considering having some requirement on formals to the lambda
19:42:24 <augur> my preference is { @: a b c ... }
19:42:32 <augur> instead of { @ -> a, b, c ... }
19:43:25 <ais523> well, as long as you don't have to define a separate prototype first
19:43:31 <ais523> using keywords like BEGIN ENTITY
19:43:38 <augur> a separate prototype?
19:43:49 <ais523> augur: you define prototypes for functions first
19:43:53 <ais523> then one or more implementations for them
19:44:24 <ais523> well, to define a 'function'
19:44:41 <ais523> you first put a block of code that states all the arguments it takes, and all the return values, and their types
19:44:46 <ais523> then, separately, you put the code for the function
19:44:55 <ais523> I'm talking about VHDL
19:45:05 <augur> yeah, i know. no we have nothing like that
19:45:12 <augur> in this, you just define what the reactions look like
19:45:18 <ais523> yes, that's a lot simpler
19:45:25 <ais523> I was talking about how VHDL is ridiculously verbose
19:45:36 <augur> functions are literally nothing more than shorthands for big reaction-creation sequences
19:46:06 <augur> all the dummy variables are unnamed, btw. they exist only in the mind of the evaluator or something like that, so theres no naming conflict
19:46:10 <tusho> by the way, I had a great esolang idea a while ago
19:46:16 <tusho> an esoteric language geared to creating electronic music
19:46:30 <augur> we do have lexical scoping
19:46:43 <augur> so these variables used in reactions exist in frames of environments
19:46:59 <augur> so this is where we get to your question about what = does
19:47:08 <augur> when the evaluator comes to a =
19:47:28 <augur> it looks at the value of the right hand side _at the time of evaluation_
19:47:35 <augur> and puts that value into the variable on the left
19:47:43 <augur> its not a reaction
19:47:57 <augur> x = y*y sets x to 47
19:48:13 <augur> <- and -> on the other hand establish a reaction
19:48:28 <augur> x <- y*y makes x 49
19:48:33 <augur> but if y changes, so does x
19:48:55 <augur> because theres lexical scope, if x doesnt exist in the environment, it creates x
19:49:25 <augur> in the evaluation frame
19:49:38 <augur> which is the global frame if you're in the main body of a reactance program
19:49:49 <augur> on the other hand, if you use := you say by default "create x in the current eval frame"
19:50:02 <augur> if you're in the global frame, no difference from =
19:50:09 <augur> if you're in a sequence
19:50:13 <augur> e.g. anything like { ... }
19:50:33 <augur> well, when you apply a function, you set up a new frame and extent the definition environment with that frame
19:51:06 <augur> so if := is in that sequence, it sets up a new variable in the frame created when applying the function
19:51:12 <augur> just like (define ... ) in lisp
19:51:23 <augur> :-> and <-: do the same for reactions
19:51:45 <augur> if the variable already exists in the frame, then thats an error.
19:52:37 <augur> does that make sense?
19:53:56 <ais523> augur: let me read it first
19:54:56 <ais523> what determines when = is evaluated?
19:55:09 <ais523> oh, you can do things like x -> y = 5
19:55:18 <ais523> so that y changes to 5 whenever x changes?
19:55:22 <ais523> that should be x -> (y = 5)
20:10:34 <augur> you cant do x -> (y = 5)
20:10:47 <ais523> in that case I don't think I understand
20:10:51 <ais523> when evaluation happens
20:10:51 <augur> you can do x -> {y = 5} tho
20:11:00 <ais523> oh, a simple syntax difference?
20:11:06 <augur> big semantic difference
20:11:10 <augur> y = 5 is just an assignment
20:11:16 <augur> _just_ an assigmnet
20:11:40 <augur> you can do it whenever you want in a series of = or -> statements
20:11:50 <augur> just like you can in, say, c
20:11:58 <augur> think of it basically like that
20:12:24 <ais523> so the program runs in sequence?
20:12:26 <augur> .. has to be a variable, or a bunch of variables
20:12:32 <ais523> in reactive langs, it's normally hard to tell when things happen
20:12:36 <augur> it establishes reactions in sequence
20:13:32 <augur> if we eliminated =, then you'd never see the sequentiality
20:13:47 <augur> and it could be eliminated entirely
20:14:00 <ais523> so x <- y actually assigns a reaction to x
20:14:05 <ais523> which makes it change value whenever y changes?
20:14:08 <augur> x <- y is identical to y -> x
20:14:19 <ais523> but before that command was called, x had no value
20:14:19 <ais523> but you never notice that
20:14:19 <augur> yeah, whenever y changes, x is updated as well
20:14:30 <augur> unless you had x -> @
20:14:32 <ais523> so if I write x <- y; z = x
20:14:36 <ais523> does that make z react to x
20:14:40 <ais523> or does = just copy x's value
20:14:49 <augur> no, = are not reactions
20:14:58 <augur> = is just a one time "whats the value _at this moment_" sort of thing
20:14:59 <ais523> but x has a reaction there
20:15:08 <ais523> so = looks at x's value, but not any reactions it has
20:15:14 <augur> right, and since y has no value, neither does x, and neither does z
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20:15:59 <ais523> tusho: where did you go?
20:16:31 <augur> ais does that make sense?
20:16:57 <ais523> and when y's assigned a value, x will change but z won't
20:17:04 <ais523> because it got a copy of x's value, but not its reactions
20:17:11 <ais523> what if I write x <- y; x <- z
20:17:13 <augur> doing z = x is sort of like
20:17:15 <ais523> does x get both reactions?
20:17:21 <augur> the evaluator gets to z = x
20:17:29 <augur> and then instead says
20:17:38 <augur> z <- that_constant_that_x_was_equal_to
20:17:50 <ais523> and { } can be used to get the evaluator to run after initial program load
20:17:58 <ais523> by making a block that's evaluated in reaction to something
20:18:06 <augur> x only has one reaction
20:18:13 <augur> the first one is destroyed.
20:18:37 <ais523> that's very different from VHDL
20:18:44 <ais523> in fact it's the first major difference I've seen
20:18:48 <augur> tho that might be interesting to look into
20:18:59 <augur> ill note it, thank you.
20:19:05 <oklofok> it seems reactance has changed a lot since my days
20:19:13 <augur> no it hasnt oklofok :P
20:19:22 <augur> you just never paid attention in the first place
20:19:24 <oklofok> y->x;z->x didn't use to eliminate y->x
20:19:29 <augur> {} just enclose sequences
20:19:35 <augur> yes it did, oklofok
20:19:38 <ais523> sequences being the operative word here
20:19:42 <ais523> so that they can be evaluated, in sequence
20:19:50 <augur> well yes, oklofok :P
20:20:01 <ais523> including specifying what reaction causes them to happen
20:20:11 <augur> sequences are just a bunch of reactions
20:20:17 <ais523> augur: oklofok: you two remind me of me and ehird
20:20:24 <ais523> bickering about this sort of language detail
20:20:26 <oklofok> ais523: also me and ehird.
20:20:38 <augur> so when you do something like
20:20:47 <augur> what you do is store the sequence in the variable foo
20:20:50 <oklofok> also ehird and X for any value of X
20:20:52 <tusho> GregorR: Rule 1 of #esoteric: Your language does not need a channel, unless it's Feather.
20:20:59 <augur> sequences have inputs and outputs, as you saw: @ -> ... and ... -> @
20:21:05 <augur> so functions are really just sequences
20:21:10 <GregorR> tusho: It's not a language, nor is it that esoteric.
20:21:14 <oklofok> my languages are so awesome i could have seven channels for each
20:21:18 <tusho> JSMIPS is totally esoteric, GregorR.
20:21:22 <augur> the whole program could infact be considered one giant {}
20:21:25 <tusho> oklofok: You CAN! :D
20:21:36 <augur> MIPS by itself is esoteric.
20:21:40 * ais523 is laughing continuously
20:21:50 <augur> does that make sense, ais?
20:21:55 <oklofok> ais523: who made you laugh?
20:21:59 <augur> {} is just sequence syntax
20:22:03 <ais523> oklofok: the whole discussion
20:22:13 <oklofok> okay, aws just wondering if it was my second point.
20:22:16 <tusho> let's argue about whom argues with whom
20:22:17 <ais523> but starting when two people joined #jsmips when GregorR asked someone else to
20:22:28 <augur> so when you do x -> { y = 5 } what you're doing is saying the value of x is the input to the sequence { y = 5 }
20:22:36 <augur> which is just the same as applying that sequence to x
20:22:48 <augur> or if it was a named sequence
20:23:19 <augur> tusho: about _who_ argues with whom
20:23:31 <tusho> shut up augur, you know i'm mentally retarded ;)
20:23:47 <ais523> tusho: you started it this time
20:23:50 <augur> i can tell you precisely why it's _who_ anyway
20:23:53 <tusho> ais523: actually, I was joking
20:23:57 <augur> ais: does all that make sense?
20:24:02 <ais523> tusho: yes, but it may not come across that way
20:24:09 <tusho> ais523: did last time I joked about it
20:24:29 <augur> if you have any questions, dont ask oklopol. he's confused.
20:24:50 <oklofok> i'm not confused, i'm just bicurious!
20:25:50 <augur> no, you're a faggot is what you are
20:26:27 <augur> ok im off to pick up my glasses and go install Leopard on my aunts computer
20:51:59 <ais523> wow, they just released a new version of Subversion, with some actual new features
20:52:05 <ais523> that doesn't happen very often
20:52:17 <tusho> ais523: and shouldn't, they still think it has a market segment...
20:52:30 <tusho> ais523: it shouldn't
20:52:41 <ais523> tusho: think small projects with a few people, and a centralised server
20:52:52 <tusho> DVCS' still have major advantages in that case
20:53:06 <ais523> tusho: well, in this case, we didn't want branching at all anywhere
20:53:09 <tusho> ais523: also, a subversion dev has stated that the market for svn is now 'medium-sized projects'
20:53:16 <tusho> which is crap as DVCS' work well on them
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21:06:39 <ais523> (sorry, tried to say that earlier but my Internet connection malfunctioned)
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21:09:19 <ais523> heh, oerjan comes out in cyan
21:09:27 <ais523> my client invents colours for everyone's nicks
21:09:34 <ais523> presumably based on some username-based algorithm
21:09:48 <ais523> Slereah_ is a sort of slightly bluish green
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21:14:32 <ais523> I have a dodgy Internet connection
21:14:44 <oklofok> ais523: who clever is the nick invention?
21:14:58 <ais523> well, your nick is a rather nice shade of purple
21:15:06 <ais523> and I didn't invent the nick thing
21:15:10 <oklofok> always manages to choose the same color for almost same nicks?
21:15:12 <ais523> probably many clients have it
21:15:18 <ais523> oklofok: no, very different for almost same nicks
21:15:26 <ais523> presumably so you can tell them apart
21:21:59 <ais523> hm... tusho's almost the same colour as Slereah_
21:22:34 <ais523> in terms of nick colour
21:23:23 <tusho> ais523: probably because Slereah_ and tusho are far apart nickwise
21:24:08 <Slereah_> He's right under me alphabetically
21:24:28 <ais523> well, most of the letters are different
21:24:41 <ais523> wow, I'm not sure if I can tell the colours for you two apart
21:26:09 <tusho> ais523: http://live.gnome.org/Vala this is crazy
21:26:15 <tusho> it's a compiler that compiles to C-GObject
21:26:21 <tusho> and has things like lambdas
21:26:26 <tusho> and non-null types
21:26:29 <tusho> and generics, and type inferrence
21:27:22 <ais523> so it's designed to be a sane interface to what they have already?
21:31:06 <tusho> ais523: pretty much
21:31:16 <tusho> it's like all of C#'s functional&weird features plus the gobject type system
21:31:22 <tusho> but still ... gobject is grossly horrible
21:31:25 <tusho> so why build something so nice on top of it
21:31:36 <ais523> tusho: well, it's TC, right?
21:31:48 <ais523> besides, why did you ask that question in #esoteric?
21:31:55 <tusho> because GObject is esoteric
21:31:58 <tusho> and there's nowhere else to ask it
21:32:02 <ais523> "X is grossly horrible, so why build something so nice on top of it"
21:32:10 <ais523> that question's rhetorical in #esoteric
21:32:15 <tusho> for something serious
21:32:43 <tusho> ais523: how do I find out which channels I own?
21:33:27 <ais523> I'm not sure if you can
21:33:37 <ais523> try asking in #freenode
21:33:53 * ais523 is confused that tusho seems to think that ais523 is a ChanServ expert
21:34:21 <Slereah_> If you are not, you have OUTLIVED YOUR USEFULNESS!
21:34:39 * ais523 ducks behind a filing cabinet
21:34:53 <Slereah_> I find your lack of chanserv expertise disturbing.
21:35:01 * ais523 quickly leafs through their #esoteric handbook for the bit on protecting oneself from an angry Slereah_
21:35:16 * ais523 gets out some delicious cake to use as a distraction
21:36:32 <ais523> oerjan: ssh, don't tell Slereah_ that!
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21:49:17 <tusho> ais523: well I just had to do it .. I'm making a language that is a thin, slightly eso layer over c
21:51:08 <tusho> ais523: you'll be interested because it'll probably be prototype based
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21:59:01 <oklofok> i'm going to make a language based on your mother
22:00:49 <tusho> ais523: behold. http://pastebin.ca/1051458
22:03:38 <tusho> ais523: most awful thing ever or what
22:04:14 <ais523> Java looks worse, for instance
22:05:59 <tusho> ais523: but awful in how it'll translate to c
22:15:27 <ais523> here, let me take an argument I had with tusho over to #esoteric
22:15:38 <ais523> is it a good idea to provide version control information in multiple formats?
22:15:43 <ais523> say, in both git and darcs foramt
22:15:51 <tusho> ais523: that is so not what yousaid
22:15:52 <ais523> I think it is, tusho thinks it isn't
22:15:57 <tusho> and let's not inflame #esoteric
22:16:06 <ais523> tusho: no, I didn't say it like taht
22:16:15 <ais523> but that's what I think it's most important to resolve
22:16:25 <ais523> lets see what the others have to say
22:16:38 <ais523> come on, denizens of #esoteric!
22:16:46 <tusho> ais523: like 3 people here use version control.
22:17:00 <tusho> GregorR, probably lament
22:17:04 <ais523> this channel is full of programmers
22:17:09 <tusho> ais523: unconventional ones
22:17:11 <ais523> most of whom will have used version control at some time
22:17:13 <tusho> oklopol doesn't use any
22:17:27 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat has an irrational hatred and prefers his 'vcs' which consists of a php script that lists zip files and lets you upload them
22:17:35 <ais523> tusho: well, if e did, e'd appreciate having version control info in multiple format
22:17:36 <tusho> dunno about oerjan, SimonRC
22:17:41 <jix> i wouldn't want to maintain a multiple vcs setup
22:17:53 <ais523> jix: but it makes more sense as a user from a website
22:17:55 <tusho> jix: especially since the differences in how they treat things, right?
22:17:59 <ais523> I'm offering to maintain it myself
22:17:59 <tusho> it wouldn't convert well
22:18:07 <ais523> tusho: it does convert well, I tested
22:18:16 <jix> well if some are read only it would work i guess
22:18:20 <tusho> oh dear, we pinged RodgerTheGreat
22:18:26 <ais523> jix: that's it, all but one are read only
22:18:35 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: well you DID say that you hate them all except your zip uploader.
22:18:44 <tusho> i can get the logs if you want...
22:18:50 <ais523> well, provide RodgerTheGreatZipUploader as a format too
22:18:54 <ais523> for people who like doing it like that
22:18:57 <jix> but then i don't really see the use... you could use some webinterface that enables downloads of revisions as tar.bz2 and everyone is happy
22:19:08 <jix> downloads of that and patches or something
22:19:21 <RodgerTheGreat> and the point I originally made was that I think they're usually overkill and poorly designed
22:19:22 <jix> i'd prefer that over loads of different vcs
22:19:22 <ais523> jix: yes, that's how VCS converters work
22:19:38 <jix> ais523: yeah but just offer the bz2s and patches and the vcs you use
22:19:43 <jix> that should be enough for everyone!
22:19:43 <GregorR> I used to think version control systems were overkill.
22:19:55 <tusho> jix: it's because ais523, although accepting that git would work totally fine and would be equal to darcs, wants to use darcs to develop even though ESO has some infrastructure [with more to come] built around git
22:19:57 <GregorR> Then I made a big change to a file that I couldn't easily revert.
22:19:58 <tusho> e.g. the online repo viewer
22:20:01 <ais523> jix: well, the issue here is that I'm using a different VCS for my projects than tusho is for eirs
22:20:07 <tusho> ais523: that's untrue
22:20:09 <tusho> s/tusho/the rest of ESO/
22:20:16 <tusho> and the point is that we have infrastructure, with more to come, utilizing it
22:20:19 <ais523> tusho: the rest of ESO is you
22:20:21 <tusho> also, you've even said that git would work fine
22:20:23 <tusho> ais523: yes, but not forever
22:20:32 <ais523> tusho: what if the rest of ESO wants to use darcs?
22:20:43 <tusho> ais523: that's not what I said
22:20:46 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: I am also somewhat curious as to why you've gone out of your way to criticize my opinions so many times recently for essentially no reason.
22:20:51 <jix> i don't like darcs
22:20:52 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: I haven't.
22:20:55 <tusho> It was relevant to the discussion.
22:20:58 <jix> and i don't like git either
22:21:02 <tusho> ais523: ESO has infrastructure, with more to come (important note) based on git.
22:21:12 <tusho> Therefore, ESO is likely to use git more and more and not other VCS'.
22:21:14 <ais523> tusho: there are two things based on git, because you chose to use it
22:21:20 <ais523> for two projects you started
22:21:32 <tusho> ais523: you misunderstand 'infrastructure'
22:21:34 <GregorR> jix: I'm not a big fan of decentralized revision control in general, but I still Mercurial because it's soooooooo easy to set up on a server X-D
22:21:37 <tusho> infrastructure = code browser, etc
22:21:45 <jix> GregorR: i use bazaar
22:21:48 <ais523> and I'm willing to convert my projects to git to work in your browser
22:22:00 <tusho> but that conversion does not work foolproof, ais523
22:22:03 <jix> GregorR: because switching from svn to it was the most easiest switch imho and it's soooo easy to setup
22:22:07 <tusho> and since you have acknowlegded that git would work fine
22:22:11 <tusho> you could just... you know. use it
22:22:14 <ais523> tusho: well, it only needs to work for the things that the browser shows
22:22:19 <tusho> or, you could just forfeit the code browser like earlier
22:22:27 <jix> but i have no problem of using different vcs for different projects
22:22:31 <ais523> which is revisions, commits and patches
22:22:36 <ais523> I don't see how they could fail to convert
22:22:37 <tusho> ais523: I am not happy with the duplication of the storage.
22:22:45 <tusho> When it gets more revisions that will be a problem.
22:22:50 <jix> so if i work on a project that uses GIT i'd use git too
22:22:59 <tusho> And I don't want C-INTERCAL taking up a lot of space just because you don't want to use git for no reason...
22:23:14 <ais523> tusho: it's hardly likely to take up a lot of space
22:23:34 <tusho> Darcs is not the most space-efficient VCS, ais523.
22:23:44 <jix> uh and darcs vs git i'd vote for git because darcs dependencies aren't nice
22:23:48 <ais523> so a git conversion won't take up much more
22:24:16 <jix> like compiling ghc isn't fun
22:24:25 <ais523> jix: well, I have ghc already
22:24:33 <tusho> jix: he has this brilliant idea of automatically converting darcs to git for the code browser & similar
22:24:36 <tusho> and doing this routinely to keep it up to date
22:24:42 <tusho> instead of using git (which he has acknowledged would be fine)
22:25:04 <jix> well if it makes no differences for anyone but him why shouldn't he do that
22:25:04 <ais523> tusho: but annoying for someone like me, who likes the darcs interface but not the git interface
22:25:20 <jix> ais523: you could write some small shellscript wrapper for that couldn't you?
22:25:24 <tusho> ais523: maybe you could spend some time with it?
22:25:27 <tusho> I bet you'd come out more efficient.
22:25:46 <ais523> jix: yes, I'm thinking about it
22:25:59 <jix> which imho would be a better solution that duplicating the repo
22:26:17 * jix is too tired to write...
22:26:24 <ais523> tusho: well, I'm reasonably efficient as is, and going much faster wouldn't give me time to review my changes
22:26:31 <ais523> as is, I've caught quite a few errors at commit-time
22:26:41 <tusho> ais523: Well, if you can get an equal speed with git and all these advantages...
22:26:52 <tusho> If you wish, though, write that shell wrapper.
22:26:56 <tusho> I'm sure lots of people would find it useful, actually.
22:29:15 <Slereah> What do you think of this so far : http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Limp
22:30:53 <tusho> Slereah: It rox my box.
22:31:11 <ais523> tusho: I can't figure out how to use git commit --interactive at all
22:31:16 <ais523> and that's the main reason I use darcs
22:31:21 <tusho> ais523: You could ask #git.
22:31:28 <tusho> Or the mailing list.
22:31:38 <Slereah> I think I'm going to have problems differenciating names from function values
22:31:38 <ais523> tusho: if I ask them how to make git work exactly like darcs, most likely they'll say "use darcs"
22:31:45 <ais523> whichis a sensible reply in the circumstances
22:31:50 <tusho> ais523: I doubt it.
22:31:50 <Slereah> I'll have to do something moar rigorous for it.
22:31:56 <tusho> Just ask them how to efficiently use git commit --interactive.
22:32:00 <tusho> That's your real question.
22:32:14 <tusho> It's just hidden in the layer of 'darcs thingy is efficient', 'I want git commit --interactive to be as efficient'
22:32:25 <tusho> Which does not equate to 'I want it to work exactly like darcs', which would be a bad phrasing of it.
22:33:25 <ais523> tusho: it's fundamentally different
22:33:31 <ais523> darcs separates patches for showing them
22:33:43 <tusho> ais523: Ask them how to do a similar workflow.
22:33:47 <ais523> so you can't commit a change to a file but not an unrelated change elsewhere in that file
22:33:57 <ais523> also you have to commit a diff before you can look at it
22:34:01 <tusho> *ahem* I don't know why ais523 thinks I'm a git-workflow expert.
22:34:02 <ais523> well, tentative-commit it
22:34:16 <ais523> I'm just explaining why using git would be against my interests
22:34:23 <ais523> can I not just use darcs as an interface to it?
22:34:56 <ais523> Slereah: I'm not sure I understand it
22:35:24 <tusho> ais523: It wouldn't be against your interests! Just ask #git, jeez.
22:35:37 <tusho> (And don't say "tusho told me to come in here and ask you how to make git exactly like darcs". Because that's silly.)
22:35:45 <ais523> what else should I say?
22:36:03 <Slereah> ais523 : What do you not understandy?
22:36:12 <tusho> ais523: I'm used to 'darcs record'. How can I use 'git commit --interactive' for a similar workflow?
22:36:30 <ais523> Slereah: the whole thing, my head isn't getting around it for some reason
22:36:58 <Slereah> Not even the recursive-lisp-lambda part? :o
22:37:13 <ais523> I think I'm having trouble parsing the syntax in my head
22:37:17 <ais523> possibly because I'm tired
22:38:07 <tusho> ais523: I just told you how to ask them. :P
22:38:11 <ais523> tusho: well, I've copy/pasted that question to #git
22:38:21 <ais523> and nobody's replied so far
22:38:31 <tusho> ais523: and if they suggest pointers to a different workflow, listen to them.. open mind and all that
22:38:41 <Slereah> Well, the syntax for processes is P ::= 0 | x<y>.P | x[y].P | (n x)P | (P|P) | !P
22:38:42 <ais523> yes, well actually they're just ignoring me
22:40:30 <tusho> ais523: no they're not
22:40:39 <tusho> guess what, irc channels are idle most of the time :|
22:40:49 <tusho> and people only answer questions they can
22:40:55 <ais523> #git asn't when I arrived
22:44:51 -!- ihope_ has joined.
22:44:57 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
22:47:42 -!- Phenax has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:47:50 -!- Phenax has joined.
22:52:51 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes "interfunge"?
22:52:56 <ais523> AnMaster: again not at all, so far
22:53:02 <ais523> I've been too busy arguing with tusho
22:53:06 <ais523> for the last month or so
22:53:24 <tusho> AnMaster: considering we're the two members of ESO
22:53:25 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I enjoy the arguments
22:53:26 <tusho> that might not be so productive
22:53:32 <tusho> (and the two main people on Canada)
22:53:37 <ais523> I admit that /ignore tusho would make me a lot more productive at many things, though
22:53:38 <AnMaster> ais523, tell him to shut up then?
22:53:45 <tusho> AnMaster: i could say the same!
22:54:00 <ais523> hey, I didn't say the arguments were tusho's fault!
22:54:12 <tusho> yes you did! fuck you ais523!
22:54:16 <tusho> i hope you die in a fire!
22:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: that might work, but then how would I convince tusho of what I wanted to convince them of?
22:56:17 <ais523> AnMaster: no, just singular they
22:56:37 <ais523> AnMaster: use of the word they to refer to one object
22:56:41 <ais523> to avoid having to state a gender
22:56:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that isn't correct English afaik?
22:56:55 <ais523> AnMaster: even Shakespeare used the word themself
22:56:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: It _will_ be
22:57:02 <ais523> despite knowing the gender of the person in question
22:57:09 <tusho> let's all use spivak
22:57:12 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, but this isn't old English
22:57:15 <tusho> AnMaster, though, I don't think e might like that
22:57:27 <tusho> It might get em enflamed.
22:57:36 <ais523> AnMaster: use of the word e as the singular of they
22:57:42 <tusho> And e'll lose eir mind!
22:59:03 <ihope> "They" is correct English grammar. If anybody tells you otherwise, they're right.
22:59:15 <ais523> ihope: s/right/wrong/?
22:59:22 <ais523> you just contradicted yourself
23:00:14 <olsner> maybe you mean "they's right"?
23:00:37 <ais523> wow, double-single-quote, I don't use that often
23:00:52 -!- Ilari has joined.
23:01:33 <AnMaster> ais523, double single quote exist?
23:01:39 <ais523> some langs use it, I think
23:01:50 <ais523> e.g. TexInfo uses it for directed closing double-quotes
23:01:52 <AnMaster> hard to keep apart from double quote...
23:01:59 <ais523> you write `` for a directed opening double-quote
23:02:05 <AnMaster> I mean in hard written text '' == "
23:02:15 <ais523> Ilari: tusho tells me that you recognised my quit message as INTERCAL
23:02:32 <ais523> as a double-quoted ' == '
23:02:33 <AnMaster> ais523, they look different in my font
23:02:51 <ais523> Ilari: any idea what it does?
23:03:07 <tusho> anyway, ais523, get back into #git so they can hit you with the force of a thousand reasoned arguments :-P
23:03:15 <Ilari> ais523: Nope. I haven't studied Intercal very much.
23:03:21 <ais523> tusho: I got a very satisfactory answer from #git, thanks
23:03:39 <tusho> wait, didn't you say it supports your workflow anyway?
23:03:58 <tusho> does that mean you'll be using git?
23:04:18 <tusho> ignore AnMaster, as he is a complete liar.
23:04:18 <ais523> AnMaster: that seems to be the other main alternative, after reading up on this online
23:04:26 <ais523> apart from git and darcs
23:04:30 <tusho> besides, the only reason git is on the table is because ESO are utilizing it already
23:04:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well darcs is good too
23:04:39 <tusho> ais523: anyway, is it time to do my victory dance?
23:04:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm using darcs at the moment, tusho's trying to convince me to use git
23:04:55 <ais523> whereas I just want to get on and write INTERCAL compilers...
23:04:57 <tusho> ais523: and you just found out it supports your workflow fine...
23:05:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd recommend "keep darcs" then
23:05:12 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but he can't use the ESO code browser then
23:05:17 <tusho> without his awful convert-to-git-regularly hack
23:05:28 <tusho> anyway, /me dances the victory dance.
23:05:30 <AnMaster> tusho, why would he want that code browser
23:05:37 <tusho> AnMaster: because he said he did
23:05:46 <tusho> and wrote an awful hack to get it working
23:05:49 <ais523> AnMaster: trac handles darcs?
23:05:50 <tusho> and trac is awful, awful
23:06:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I *think* there may be a plugin for it
23:06:08 <tusho> ais523: i thought you said that git was designed for your workflow, anyway
23:06:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I know there is a plugin for bzr in trac, and iirc one for mercurial
23:06:42 <ais523> tusho: yes, its designed for lots of other workflows too
23:06:51 <tusho> ais523: and that's good - think of all the other contributors
23:07:01 <tusho> if you've found that out, can't we just get on with it and live in esogitty harmony
23:07:08 <ais523> tusho: well, why can't we serve to them in both git and darcs?
23:07:10 <AnMaster> ais523, and mercurial got a VERY GOOD code browser
23:07:17 <tusho> not this again, we've already argued about this
23:07:19 <ais523> AnMaster: try telling tusho that
23:07:27 <tusho> AnMaster: mercurial does not support ais523's darcs-esque workflow in any way
23:07:29 <ais523> e's the one who installed the browsers
23:07:31 <tusho> and I know, having used it for ages
23:07:47 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't there a good code browser for darcs too?
23:07:49 <ais523> tusho: the main issue is you wanting to have a list of all the repos on the front page
23:08:05 <ais523> otherwise having different browsers for different formats would be fine
23:08:05 <tusho> that's utterly untrue
23:08:09 <tusho> that's utterly untrue
23:08:14 <AnMaster> ais523, a quick google: http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/
23:08:21 <tusho> and this belongs in #ESO
23:08:23 <ais523> tusho: there's no other good reason to have /everything/ in git format
23:08:27 <tusho> and this belongs in #ESO
23:08:35 <ais523> tusho: but then AnMaster couldn't join in the argument
23:08:38 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:08:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that is what he wants!
23:08:47 <tusho> ais523: his part consists of endlessly repeating 'use mercurial'...
23:08:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so I agree lets keep it here
23:09:09 <AnMaster> tusho, http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/
23:09:29 <tusho> AnMaster: yay! now I can use the shitty trac with darcs!
23:09:32 <tusho> that solves all the world's problems
23:09:50 <AnMaster> ais523, note I haven't tried that trac plugin so no idea if it is good
23:09:55 <AnMaster> ais523, but maybe worth a truy
23:10:10 <tusho> i thought you were discussing this in #ESO
23:10:13 <ais523> ...so I voice AnMaster in #ESO, and tusho leaves in protest?
23:10:21 <AnMaster> tusho, no since you parted there
23:10:28 <tusho> it was an opt-out of an argument going nowhere
23:10:32 <tusho> which I'm not interested in following
23:11:41 <ais523> hmm... trac's got a bit spiffier since I last used it
23:11:47 <ais523> last year, on a major University project
23:11:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah trac 0.11 is quite good
23:12:03 <AnMaster> compared with the previous one
23:12:08 <ais523> and it was pretty good even then
23:12:11 <AnMaster> iirc 0.11 is still in beta though
23:12:11 <tusho> i could go on about all the hidden gotchas and failures of trac
23:12:16 <ais523> although tusho seems not to like it for some reason
23:12:21 <ais523> tusho: go on, you might convince me
23:12:23 <tusho> but I won't, because I opt-outed of that argument
23:12:32 <ais523> tusho: well, then you won't convince me
23:12:37 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
23:12:39 <ais523> if you don't provide arguments
23:12:46 <tusho> ais523: i didn't have any hope of convincing you in the first place
23:12:51 <AnMaster> lament, care to kickban tusho again? ;)
23:13:10 <ais523> can someone other than tusho explain what happened then?
23:13:12 <tusho> yes, because I have flagrantly disturbed the channel
23:13:19 <ais523> I've heard the story from them, but it may be biased
23:13:28 <tusho> and deserve a kickban from not wanting to participate in this
23:13:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:13:50 <tusho> anyway, I requested the kickban as a joke
23:13:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well trac can be a bit hard to setup I agree, and it is a "all in one solution" which means it isn't the best at any of the tasks
23:13:58 <tusho> oh, and Phenax was the one who was legitimately going to be kickbanned
23:14:07 <tusho> because he talks like this:
23:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, for example the trac bug tracker is quite bad compared with, say, mantis
23:14:32 <ais523> AnMaster: it reminded me of bugzilla a lot
23:14:33 <AnMaster> but it integrate well into the other parts
23:14:46 <Phenax> im too fucking badass to get kickbanned motherfuckas!
23:14:46 <tusho> AnMaster: c-intercal already has a bug tracker, for what it's worth
23:14:57 <ais523> both Debian and Ubuntu set one up
23:15:05 <ais523> I think they do it as a matter of course
23:15:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I may write an ebuild for c-intercal
23:15:31 <ais523> nobody's tried to use Ubuntu's but me, though
23:15:34 <tusho> 15:24:49 <Phenax> one tyme my profesor did dat 2 and i was like holy shat i got like 4 routersa that are MIPS
23:15:34 <tusho> 15:30:20 <Phenax> augur: im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class
23:15:35 <tusho> 15:30:26 <Phenax> campus securiy canna b liek waddat
23:15:35 <tusho> 15:31:15 <Phenax> BUT I ALSO WANT TO FUCKIHN BURP IN MY PROFESSORS FACE AND IT NEEDS TO SMELL LIEK ENERGY
23:15:35 <tusho> 15:34:30 <Phenax> randall is betta dan spinelli olol
23:15:38 <lament> Phenax: are you at all interested in esoteric languages, or only in talking like a gangsta?
23:16:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ebuild = gentoo package (or rather building instructions)
23:16:17 <ais523> trac is missing good dependency support on bugs
23:16:22 <ais523> AnMaster: interesting idea
23:16:31 <ais523> there was an RPM at one point, but it's unmaintained
23:16:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yes agreed about the bugs dependency, there is a plugin for it
23:16:44 <AnMaster> not sure if 0.11 got it by default
23:16:51 <ais523> and apparently Debian got an earlier version running on the Hurd
23:16:53 <AnMaster> ais523, an ebuild should be rather simple
23:16:54 <tusho> ais523: anyway, if you found out that git supports your workflow fine, ESO already has some stuff working on git and it's all fine, can't we just stop talking about this and get on with things?
23:16:57 <tusho> just a random idea
23:17:01 <tusho> it's very unproductive, this
23:17:11 <AnMaster> isn't is basically ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install
23:17:15 <ais523> tusho: maybe I want to do something other than ESO
23:17:20 <AnMaster> ais523, or is there any other steps?
23:17:34 <ais523> there shouldn't be if everything goes to plan
23:17:39 <tusho> it was just an extra reason to use it
23:17:43 <tusho> (along with its large adoption)
23:17:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what about cflags? does a general sane CFLAGS="-O2 -march=<something> -pipe" work for it?
23:18:08 <ais523> although I think the Makefile specifies its own cflags in some cases
23:18:12 <ais523> oh, I think -j might fail
23:18:19 <ais523> I may have to look into that
23:18:25 <AnMaster> ais523, should be quite simple to write an ebuild
23:18:36 <AnMaster> need some MAKEOPTS filtering maybe
23:18:38 <ais523> AnMaster: do you use gentoo?
23:19:03 <ais523> well, I'm pretty sure it works on the BSDs now
23:19:08 <AnMaster> also used to use slackware, don't do atm
23:19:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well bsd I use for servers...
23:19:22 <ais523> apparently it didn't work on Cygwin the last time someone tried
23:19:25 <AnMaster> not going to try c-intercal there
23:19:46 <ais523> AnMaster: well, unless you have INTERCAL programs running on the servers and need to compile the libraries for OpenBSD/FreeBSD
23:19:57 <ais523> but I think the Cygwin person was using it wrong
23:20:01 <ais523> or got the build process wrong
23:20:10 <ais523> anyway I've torn out and replaced the build process since
23:20:15 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: well, unless you have INTERCAL programs running on the servers and need to compile the libraries for OpenBSD/FreeBSD <-- I don't...
23:20:41 <ais523> AnMaster: if INTERCAL takes off, maybe some day you will need to run INTERCAL programs on your servers
23:20:51 <tusho> takes off since 197X? :P
23:21:05 <ais523> tusho: well, it got a lot more active in the early 1990s
23:21:11 <ais523> when someone actually wrote a modern compiler for it
23:21:14 <tusho> ais523: that's called "the internet"
23:21:18 <ais523> and now its control structure is almost nice
23:21:33 <ais523> its just expressions and string-handling that need help
23:21:58 <tusho> ais523: and its syntax.
23:22:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the official url to c-intercal?
23:22:09 <tusho> AnMaster: has none
23:22:14 <tusho> intercal.freeshell.org hosts the downloads
23:22:22 <ais523> AnMaster: release versions: http://intercal.freeshell.org/download
23:22:26 <tusho> maybe c-intercal.eso-std.org will show something at one point, though :-P
23:22:35 <AnMaster> ais523, that mirror have been down sometimes
23:22:49 <ais523> development version: currently http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal
23:22:53 <tusho> that links to elliotthird.org
23:23:05 <ais523> although your mirror of it's missing
23:23:06 <tusho> ais523: and soon to be http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal.git right? ;)) </flamebait, please please ignore>
23:23:14 <tusho> elliotthird.org is zip for now
23:23:25 <ais523> ah, you put it back up
23:23:37 <tusho> it just goes to eso-std.org
23:23:39 <ais523> tusho: yes, you can have that URL fine, let me just set up a cronjob...
23:25:51 <tusho> that is more fitting
23:32:16 <ais523> tusho: you killed the conversation
23:32:37 <ais523> AnMaster: intercal.freeshell.org's mirrored itself, btw
23:33:19 <ais523> at least, the files to download are
23:33:24 <ais523> not sure about the page that links to them
23:34:54 <ais523> http://packages.debian.org/sid/hurd-i386/intercal/download <-- seriously, what a ridiculous thing to do
23:35:03 * ais523 doubts anyone tries to run Intercal under Hurd
23:37:07 <tusho> it's automatic ais523 ...
23:37:09 * AnMaster doubts anyone tries to run Hurd
23:37:23 <ais523> but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous
23:37:41 <ais523> at least, when Hurd finally takes off and overtakes Linux, people will be able to run INTERCAL programs on it!
23:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, would dev-util fit for c-intercal?
23:38:43 <ais523> c-intercal's a compiler and debugger
23:38:52 <ais523> so it should be in the same package category as gcc, probably
23:39:00 <ais523> in terms of what it does, not in terms of importance
23:39:12 <AnMaster> which is reserved for system packages
23:39:16 <ais523> ok, so less important, but the same sort of thing
23:39:19 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway: http://rafb.net/p/G6tQAh69.html
23:39:21 <ais523> dev-util seems about right
23:39:56 <ais523> dev-util doesn't look like it contains compilers
23:40:10 <ais523> just development utilities that aren't compilers or interps
23:40:14 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/PHuaTE63.html
23:40:16 <ais523> but maybe I just don't recognise any there
23:40:45 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/JISgdH87.html
23:41:25 <ais523> ah, that looks more like it
23:41:47 <ais523> presumably convickt would go in dev-util
23:41:57 <ais523> but make install installs both ick and convickt at the moment
23:42:00 <AnMaster> how was the version number now again?
23:42:06 <AnMaster> iirc there was something complex there
23:42:40 <AnMaster> well that means I will have to actually call it 28.0 in portage I guess
23:42:42 <ais523> so 0.28 = 28.0 in a normal system
23:42:51 <ais523> or 28:0.28 is what Debian call it
23:42:52 <AnMaster> or the package manager will freak out
23:43:00 <ais523> they dupe the most significant part to the start
23:43:07 <AnMaster> as : is reserved for something else
23:43:14 <ais523> AnMaster: epoch number?
23:43:21 <ais523> that's what it means in Debian
23:43:26 <ais523> otherwise, 28.0.28 I guess
23:43:32 <AnMaster> as you can install different ones side by side
23:44:15 <ais523> well, I think it's unlikely that people would simultaneously install two versions of C-INTERCAL
23:44:32 <AnMaster> well portage would barf on a version containing ;
23:44:49 <ais523> so it sorts properly, and also looks right
23:45:35 <AnMaster> portage uses - to separate package name and version
23:45:39 <ais523> it's just 'intercal' to debian
23:45:46 <ais523> but that's just biased
23:45:57 <ais523> clc_intercal deserves a say, too
23:46:06 <ais523> or you could call it ick after the binary, but that's probably a bad idea
23:46:58 <AnMaster> ais523, care to give me a one line package description?
23:47:17 <ais523> C-INTERCAL - INTERCAL to binary (via C) compiler
23:47:19 <AnMaster> "The GNU Compiler Collection. Includes C/C++, java compilers, pie+ssp extensions, Haj Ten Brugge runtime bounds checking" is about max lenght
23:47:50 <ais523> intercal.freeshell.org
23:48:29 <AnMaster> "http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz"
23:48:37 <AnMaster> it would make my life easier :P
23:48:39 <ais523> 8.3 filenames and all that
23:52:10 <AnMaster> KEYWORDS="~alpha ~amd64 ~ia64 ~ppc ~ppc64 ~sparc ~x86 ~x86-fbsd"
23:52:18 <AnMaster> or what platforms does it work on?
23:52:21 <ais523> well, it should work on all platforms
23:52:27 <ais523> thanks in part to your debugging
23:52:34 <ais523> oh, int has to be at least 32 bit
23:52:39 <ais523> but everything does that nowadays
23:52:46 <ais523> AnMaster: nearly all of it's GPL2
23:52:51 <ais523> apart from the documentation's GFDL
23:52:53 <AnMaster> ais523, well what one should I put there
23:52:58 <ais523> and the skeleton files are PD
23:53:25 <ais523> and development headers like stdio.h
23:53:33 <ais523> presumably Gentoo will have those already
23:53:47 <ais523> or it couldn't build it
23:53:53 <ais523> but if you can build it, you can run it, I think
23:54:00 <AnMaster> it *could* have another compiler
23:54:12 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL can run on other compilers, technically
23:54:16 <ais523> but that hasn't been tested for years
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23:54:26 <ais523> and some advanced features require gcc
23:54:50 <AnMaster> >>> Creating Manifest for /usr/local/portage/generic-overlay/dev-lang/c_intercal
23:55:18 <ais523> I have to leave in a couple of minutes
23:55:19 <AnMaster> >>> Unpacking ick-0-28.tgz to /var/tmp/portage/dev-lang/c_intercal-28.0.28/work
23:55:47 <ais523> that's configure, 8.3ised
23:55:48 <AnMaster> that really really makes it complex
23:55:59 <ais523> AnMaster: just add a symlink from configure
23:56:11 -!- edwardk has joined.
23:57:18 <AnMaster> well I'm asking in #gentoo-dev-help now
23:57:42 -!- tusho has quit.
23:57:51 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> hi I need some help with a package that call it's configure for "config.sh" due to dos compatibility (yes!)
23:57:51 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> how do you tell econf about that?
23:58:20 <ais523> but I'll see how it went tommorow, probably
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