00:00:31 <oklofok> i've nothing against cannibalism, but i don't feel like alcohol right now
00:00:38 <augur> sippin on gin and (boy) juice?
00:01:28 -!- oklofok has set topic: The coolest ever international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
00:01:36 <tusho> oklofok: i don't think that's what he meant by man juice
00:02:17 <oklofok> i don't think that was what i meant with cannibalism.
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00:11:22 <tusho> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=23897&start=40
00:11:24 <tusho> akanotu is demented
00:11:34 <tusho> especially dogs in text adventure games
00:11:37 <tusho> and especially dogs in IRP text adventure games
00:45:28 <GregorR> tusho: Hrm, with your autofocus, I can't select text >_>
00:46:15 <tusho> GregorR: Hm. I could add a 'LET ME SELECT TEXT' button.
00:46:18 <tusho> I'll do that tomorrow. :P
00:46:41 <GregorR> Or, more generally, a focus/defocus button.
00:47:16 <GregorR> And a small program could be written for the shell that uses your FFI to cause it to defocus :P
00:47:19 <GregorR> So you can just type "defocus"
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01:09:15 <GregorR> That's called "telling a story"
01:09:37 <RodgerTheGreat> "would someone please act as the interface for a game of epic adventure, puzzle solving and low cunning?"
01:11:13 <lament> Hello RodgerTheGreat, welcome to Lamentia! You are standing on top of a very tall pillar in the middle of the ocean. The pillar is about a meter in diameter. You feel dizzy.
01:11:57 <lament> Huge waves crash against the sides of the pillar, making it shake a little.
01:13:07 <oklofok> You see a bunch of killer robots flying towards you.
01:13:11 <lament> Your hands are empty. You are wearing some rags.
01:13:26 <oklofok> you can play oklonia later
01:15:16 <RodgerTheGreat> (if he says "that's not easy unless your eyes are prehensile", I'll know he's an infocom adventure)
01:16:26 <lament> You are old and physically frail. Your long hair and beard are a complete mess. The rags you are wearing are old, soiled and nearly falling apart.
01:16:48 <lament> An enormous wave crashes into the pillar, sending spray into your face.
01:18:08 <lament> The pillar you are standing on is made of nondescript gray rock and rises about 20 meters above the ocean surface. Its sides have been smoothed by the action of the waves.
01:19:53 <lament> To the west, you can barely make out the dark line of the shore and the rising black spires of a castle. To all other directions, you see only the restless ocean.
01:20:46 <lament> It suddenly starts raining hydrochloric acid. You feel your skin starting to dissolve.
01:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> (hm. I wonder if this is like the intro to planetfall where I just have to pass the time until something happens)
01:21:35 <oklofok> it seems you guessed right :)
01:21:36 <lament> Some of your dissolved skin turns into a blob of green goo, a blob of red goo and a blob of brown goo.
01:21:43 <lament> Suicide is not the answer.
01:23:05 <lament> This green goo tastes delicious! Your hands melt away.
01:24:20 <lament> I don't know how to use that.
01:26:36 <lament> You thoroughly mix the red goo with the brown goo. As you're doing it, suddenly the mixture explodes! Your feet are blown away and you fall onto the pillar.
01:26:43 <lament> (Your score just went up 10 points.)
01:27:53 <lament> You are old and physically frail. Your long hair and beard are a complete mess. The rags you are wearing are old, soiled and nearly falling apart. You have no hands. You have no feet. Your skin has dissolved.
01:29:53 <lament> The ocean: You can't take that.
01:29:59 <lament> The castle: You can't take that.
01:30:06 <lament> The pillar: You can't take that.
01:30:19 <lament> The big red button: You have no hands!
01:31:44 <lament> Using your face, you push the big red button. The pillar starts slowly sinking vertically into the ocean.
01:31:51 <lament> (Your score just went up 25 points.)
01:33:08 <lament> You wait a little. As the pillar descends, you notice sharks impatiently circling it under the waves.
01:34:11 <oklofok> hasn't the rest of his body dissolved?
01:34:26 <lament> no, still two more turns before that happens
01:37:16 <augur> stop distracting oklo! >_<
01:38:53 <GregorR> Hahaha, I should write an adventure game in which you die no matter what, but you "win" if you manage to stave off death longer :P
01:39:22 <lament> As you pronounce the magical word, you're enveloped in a cloud of orange smoke and your surroundings change...Segmentation fault
01:39:25 <oklofok> the problem with adventure games is they're preprogrammed
01:39:43 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: took you forever :P
01:40:09 <lament> I'm hopelessly unimaginative
01:40:15 <lament> (also have to go home soon)
01:40:30 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
01:42:26 <RodgerTheGreat> it's more fun if different people are the player every time
01:42:56 <lament> if the "interpreter" is even remotely mean, that would end very quickly and painfully
01:43:06 <lament> different people trying to be the player, i mean
01:44:09 <lament> have you played Rematch?
01:44:58 <lament> try it, the cool thing about it is that it's 1 turn long
01:45:19 <lament> so it's one of the few adventure games that i actually managed to complete
01:46:11 <lament> http://www.wurb.com/if/game/1114
01:46:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I finished WHIPLASH (I think that was the name), and managed to get the "good" ending
01:47:44 <RodgerTheGreat> One game I set aside halfway through finishing was "Babel", and I should really go back and try to complete it
01:49:10 <oklofok> i don't like playing games if the levels are crafted by humans
01:49:31 <oklofok> i guess it should be the other way
01:50:06 <lament> same as music - why listen to music unless it's written by a human?
01:50:19 <oklofok> actually, it's probably the fact i'm exploring something another person may also have explored
01:50:28 <oklofok> so i'm not gonna find anything no one has ever foudn
01:52:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I remember when I played my first few text-adventure games, and it was absolutely enthralling
01:52:26 <Dewi> oklofok: hmm... in guild wars there are a few things you can find out in the middle of nowhere, with no advantage to finding them - strange fortresses with tough monsters guarding nothing at all, the corpses of a beast and a carriage lying in the snow...
01:52:32 <Phenax> I KNO RITE.. NETHACK FTW!1
01:52:42 <RodgerTheGreat> At the time my main computer was a used 386 laptop hooked up to a CRT so I could have color
01:52:56 <Dewi> oklofok: I'm sure lots of people find them, but I like that the designers occasionally find time to add pointless detail that relatively few players are ever likely to see
01:53:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I had dialup, and the only things I could play on my computer were things I could download via 56k modem and transfer to my computer on a floppy from the family computer
01:53:28 <oklofok> Dewi: i'd still prefer it if i knew it had been automatically generated
01:53:45 <Dewi> oklofok: yeah, that's just strange :)
01:53:47 <RodgerTheGreat> from this, I discovered text adventure games and the game that defined nearly 2 years of my life on the computer- ZZT.
01:53:57 <oklofok> perhaps it has something to do with my wanting to explore outer space civilizations and shit
01:54:11 <Phenax> i plaed everquest on dialup
01:54:15 <lament> i played ZZT for like five minutes total
01:54:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I still have a little archive of my favorite ZZT games
01:54:38 <Dewi> oklofok: doesn't it bother you that... it's essentially disposable? roll the dice again and its gone?
01:55:02 <Dewi> RodgerTheGreat: we used to push that little engine as far as it could go
01:55:13 <oklofok> and they exist in that they can be generated with the same seed
01:55:35 <Dewi> RodgerTheGreat: hmm. don't think so
01:55:51 <Dewi> that might be more familiar
01:55:58 <Dewi> I think I mainly played ones by the guy who wrote ZZT
01:55:59 <oklofok> Dewi: i think the disposability is what i enjoy, the fact it's an infinite source of new worlds
01:56:04 <Dewi> but we also wrote lots of our own little games
01:56:22 <Dewi> RodgerTheGreat: nice
01:56:44 <oklofok> though Dewi was Deewiant at first
01:56:54 <oklofok> but i now see he's the character from that monkey island game
01:57:13 <Dewi> oklofok: stupid information theory. The difference between information and entropy is... sometimes just a subjective opinion
01:57:33 <oklofok> what are you referring to, there?
01:57:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think I'll ever forget chrono wars- I had a terrible case of strep throat, and I spent a thursday, friday, and a weekend in my room with loads of water, tons of cough drops, and all 13 games. I played them back-to-back and it was an incredible experience
01:58:28 <Dewi> oklofok: well, the moment you compress or encrypt data it looks more or less like random noise
01:58:58 <RodgerTheGreat> oklofok: have you tried Noctis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noctis
01:59:21 <oklofok> Dewi: sure, but i don't get the reference, still :P
01:59:34 <Dewi> oklofok: the structure is there, but very well hidden
01:59:34 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: i haven't, and it's 4 am, so i'm not gonna try right now
02:00:20 <RodgerTheGreat> don't let the fact that it runs at 320x240 turn you off- it's gorgeous: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Noctis_Screenshot.png
02:00:40 <Dewi> oklofok: just Information Theory
02:01:29 <RodgerTheGreat> Noctis was created by the same guy that's working on Linoleum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleum_%28programming_language%29
02:01:29 <Dewi> oklofok: as used in the study of crypto, and data transmission, among other things
02:01:32 <oklofok> Dewi: it's the level creation algorithm that is the interesting part
02:02:15 <Dewi> oklofok: I suddenly remember civilization, it would generate your world at the start
02:02:50 <oklofok> but i didn't like the game
02:02:55 <Dewi> oklofok: as kids we developed these odd rituals to try to generate "good" worlds
02:03:12 <Dewi> oklofok: like a friend would insist that he tried hitting "F1" repeatedly and he got this awesome world
02:03:34 <Dewi> oklofok: early 90s computer games are magic to me
02:03:44 <oklofok> heh, you're probably the oldest on the channel
02:04:08 <Dewi> oklofok: I'm a stowaway
02:04:17 <Dewi> oklofok: don't tell anyone
02:04:17 <lament> heh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Linoleum_(programming_language)
02:05:18 <lament> oerjan is my grandfather
02:05:49 <oklofok> oh, right, lament, how old are you?
02:06:53 <Dewi> oklofok: because my birthday is right at the end of the year, I've spent most of my life associating with people older than me, I am accustomed to being the youngest person in any group of people
02:06:59 <Dewi> oklofok: being the oldest is scary
02:07:36 <Dewi> oklofok: but getting old sucks, everyone I know (including me) is so boring now, so I think I'm going to have to start being that creepy older person who hangs around
02:08:10 <lament> Dewi: it's never too late!
02:08:20 <Dewi> oklofok: so... hi! Let me know if you need anything from the liquor store, kids!
02:08:36 <Dewi> (are you guys american? did I localize that properly?)
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02:09:50 <oklofok> also, all the kids are asleep already
02:09:59 <Dewi> oklofok: hmm, localizing for you is particularly tough. Would you say you speak UK standard english?
02:10:18 <Dewi> (I'm sure USA thinks it has a standard english also...)
02:10:30 <oklofok> i'd say i try to speak american english, but am not that good at keeping it pure.
02:10:53 <Dewi> oklofok: would "liquor store" be the natural rendering for you?
02:11:35 <oklofok> yeah, i can't recall any other way to say it.
02:11:40 <Dewi> here in australia they are "bottle shops" for some reason
02:12:00 <Dewi> in the UK they are "off-licenses"
02:12:22 <oklofok> ah, i think i've heard off-licence
02:13:27 <oklofok> i guess the correct localization is viinakauppa
02:13:58 <Dewi> what is the kauppa part?
02:14:16 <Dewi> from wine, vino
02:14:31 <oklofok> viina is the stronger stuff
02:14:56 <Dewi> or still grape-based
02:15:08 <oklofok> well not "oh, right", i just assumed "liquor" would suffifr
02:15:31 <Dewi> oklofok: I am into esolangs both outside computers and in computers, but I'm not actually very good
02:15:51 <Dewi> oklofok: human languages
02:16:10 <oklofok> "esoteric human languages" would probably be conlangs
02:16:22 <Dewi> oklofok: the word 'liquor' doesn't exist here
02:16:47 <Dewi> oklofok: other than through american imperialism, obviously
02:17:36 <Dewi> oklofok: well, I don't know much about conlangs. I don't really like them
02:17:50 <Dewi> oklofok: part of the beauty of languages for me is how little control we have over their development
02:17:52 <oklofok> we actually have likööri in finnish, which obviously comes from liquor, since it's pronounced almost the same, but it means a different drink
02:17:53 <augur> conlangs arent necessarily esoteric, oklofok. :P
02:18:03 <oklofok> not that i actually know what it is, exactly
02:18:14 <augur> ithkuil is definitely esoteric tho
02:18:29 <oklofok> augur: no, but i assumed he meant that
02:18:44 <Dewi> oklofok: but you're in finland! :)
02:18:56 <Dewi> oklofok: like us Australians you are meant to drink a lot, I think :P
02:19:56 <oklofok> i'm a nerd, like chilling at home ircing and coding
02:20:26 <Dewi> oklofok: how old are you?
02:20:27 <oklofok> but as i'm in a band (well technically two), i need to drink occasionally
02:20:46 <Dewi> oklofok: still plenty of time to develop a drinking problem
02:20:51 <augur> oklofok: i thought that was the finnish way
02:20:57 <augur> being a nerd and coding
02:21:09 <augur> i mean, you guys have nokia and linux
02:21:14 <oklofok> i guess we're evenly partitioned into drunks and knurds
02:21:49 <oklofok> i think the correct term for the drunk/nerd partitioning is knurd
02:21:55 <oklofok> as that's where it originated, afaik
02:22:26 <augur> i just call those people Diggnation fans but whatever
02:22:28 <oklofok> i know the guy who composed the old beepy nokia tunes
02:22:30 <Dewi> oklofok: in australia engineers particularly have a reputation for drinking heavily
02:22:35 <oklofok> at least a great part of them
02:22:42 <Dewi> oklofok: as a software engineer, I get to be a nerd and also drink
02:22:57 <augur> Dewi: do you watch Diggnation?
02:23:15 <oklofok> well, i like coding when i'm drunk, i might drink more if i was less poor
02:23:36 <augur> coding drunk is dangerous
02:23:59 <oklofok> this one guy told about his experience coding high
02:24:04 <oklofok> don't know what he was high one
02:24:18 <oklofok> but the end result was a hello world with 50 lines of comments
02:24:28 <augur> im gonna be in eurolandia in two weeks, btw.
02:24:47 <augur> dude 50-500 comments? hahaha
02:25:01 <augur> well, atleast he documented well :)
02:25:03 <oklofok> well, i recall 50, but i'm not sure, and 500 would've been more funny
02:25:38 <augur> all my helloworlds have atleast 20 lines of documentation
02:25:44 * Dewi has to get drunk to write perl sometimes
02:26:07 <Dewi> when I'm sober perl and PHP make me too angry :P
02:26:25 <augur> and when you're drink you beat them?
02:26:26 <Dewi> but also, perl written while drunk definitely won't work
02:26:32 <augur> "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO! ::SMACK::"
02:26:45 <augur> perl written sober probably won't work either.
02:26:55 <Dewi> augur: well exactly
02:27:27 <augur> if you go into #haskell, they have a bot that will answer questions about haskell
02:27:35 <augur> theres special syntax for questions
02:27:45 <augur> and the answer to any question is "Yes! Haskell can do that!"
02:28:19 <augur> 'question Can haskell code written while I'm drunk still run?
02:28:22 * Dewi did a haskell subject once
02:28:25 <augur> Yes! Haskell can do that!
02:28:29 <augur> only thats not the syntax :p
02:28:30 <Dewi> I went into the final exam thinking I knew haskell
02:28:36 <Dewi> but found out I didn't know it at all
02:28:42 <augur> haskell is cool, but fucking confusing
02:28:44 <Dewi> luckily it was an open-book test and I managed to learn a lot
02:31:29 <oklofok> they make a few senses occasionally
02:36:17 <oklofok> quick poll: what's your favorite amount of dimensions?
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02:43:30 <RodgerTheGreat> someone please suggest a male name that starts with T or TY
02:44:41 <oklofok> granted, it's silly, but quick polls are awesome.
02:45:39 <oklofok> going to answer or agreed with my opinion on polls in general?
02:45:48 <oklofok> well, acknowledged my opinion
02:48:45 <oklofok> then probably 4d, i like how you can almost visualize it, but it kinda stays mysterious still.
02:48:59 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, shit I didn't realize what the question was. I like 2d.
02:49:33 <RodgerTheGreat> 2d what I usually draw in and what I use to make games
02:50:03 <oklofok> same here, and i'm thinking if i ever get to first-person shooters or similar in my games, i'll do them in 4d.
02:51:41 <oklofok> it was a quick visual basic project with forced perspective
02:52:08 <oklofok> well not *that* quick, like 4 hours
02:53:22 <RodgerTheGreat> do text based games count as 1d? http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/ICEBreaker/
02:53:54 <oklofok> i'd say they don't really have a dimension, they are usually more general graphs
02:55:35 <oklofok> there's no inherent maximum amount of paths you can take from a certain activity cell, so there's no dimension
02:56:30 <oklofok> i like to think of n-dimensional thingies as graphs where nodes are connected to adjacent nodes
02:57:11 <oklofok> so, if a node has the position vector [a1, a2... an], it's connected to all [b1, b2... bn] where H(A, B) == 1, where H is the hamming distance function
02:57:24 <oklofok> and why am i being so mathematicianish all of the sudden
02:59:22 <oklofok> (god it's hard not to mention graphica now)
03:24:54 <RodgerTheGreat> mathematica is a kickass piece of software, I just wish the educational discount made it affordable. :/
03:25:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd pay somewhere in the $100-150 range for a copy, but they want $699 last I checked, which I just can't afford
03:27:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I think Graphica would be neater if they included the expression to generate each of the graphs next to it
03:42:07 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: graphica is my graph language
03:42:31 <augur> oklofok, go to sleep!
03:42:46 <augur> or whatever it was you were supposed to do
03:42:57 <oklofok> http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=185 <<< did this
03:43:02 <oklofok> well, yeah, but sleep time
03:43:23 <augur> i decided that elses arent necessary but beneficial for computation, so..
03:44:01 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt <<< RodgerTheGreat: in case you haven't seen this, n-dimensional binary hypercube in graphica
03:44:23 <oklofok> which is why i paste it every now and then in hope that someone tries to figure out how it works :P
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04:26:44 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks. Anything in particular you like or find interesting?
04:27:08 <ihope> I suddenly wonder what would happen if I supplied text and ideas and such and you supplied images and such and such.
04:27:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I have the script for this project pretty much nailed down, though (for issue 1 at least)
04:30:50 <ihope> Well, the "elementary, my dear static" and Dr. T with the chipmunk thing on his nose are nice.
04:31:22 <ihope> Flowers for Algernon! Brave New World! Heck, Lord of the Flies... all with protagonists rejected by society.
04:32:26 <ihope> Order of the Stick makes heavy use of dramatic irony. I'm pondering a character that's rejected by society for a reason obvious to everyone but him, then.
04:32:35 <RodgerTheGreat> and this story will contain at least some of the usual "outsiders making a stand" pathos
04:36:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm going for Dr. T as a tortured, bitter character on the brink of becoming a super villain, and Static-Cling Girl as a more optimistic character, somewhat ashamed of her abilities but generally good at making the best of a lousy situation
04:37:22 <ihope> Ashamed of her abilities but good at making the best of a lousy situation. That's a good one. Dr. T sounds like a Charlie Brown character, except more bitter and evil, of course.
04:38:39 <ihope> Do the characters try to prevent Dr. T from going over the edge?
04:39:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Generally I want to paint a transition from being frustrated that they're different to being proud of what they can do
04:39:34 <ihope> Why's Dr. T tortured?
04:39:51 <RodgerTheGreat> because he's been considered a freak for his whole life?
04:40:17 <ihope> Considered a freak because he's a tyrannosaur?
04:40:58 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kinda like X-men- they're mutants, or genetic throwbacks or something. I don't go into detail on that
04:40:58 <ihope> Does it end with the two characters eventually deciding to share a cup of coffee? :-P
04:41:16 <RodgerTheGreat> not end, but I was going to have part of a scene involve that
04:41:58 <ihope> Sounds interesting. And it would be reasonable to expect that the first strip introduces these guys and their personalities exactly as you've described them to me.
04:43:15 <ihope> "Hi, I'm Dr. T! I'm a tortured, bitter character on the brink of becoming a super villain!" "And I'm Static-Cling Girl, a more optimistic character, somewhat ashamed of my abilities but generally good at making the best of a lousy situation!" "I've been considered a freak for my whole life, and I'm really short! We're mutants, or genetic throwbacks or something! I don't go into detail on...
04:43:16 <ihope> ...that!" Except a little less blunt, I'm sure :-)
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04:45:28 <ihope> Yes, this does sound interesting. I'll be on tomorrow; I would like to read this.
04:45:37 <ihope> And it's about time for me to go to sleep, I think.
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09:27:31 <deveah> teh internets r fukkt today
09:28:38 <deveah> i have like the most cool internet speed - 0.2 kb/s yay!
09:32:39 <deveah> actually it's 385.9 kb/s
09:34:43 <GregorR> Use your tiny bit of Internet to use the Bourne shell in your browser: http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
09:47:13 <deveah> what happens when you download from FTP with 386 kb/s but google takes 8 minutes to load?
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12:18:08 <RodgerTheGreat> damn, this is neat: http://argonempire.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2463958
12:33:28 <GregorR> Anybody live in/near Prague?
12:36:12 <GregorR> ... there's some other Prague?
12:41:24 <RodgerTheGreat> damn, dude- I thought everybody knew about secondary prague. I've been there like 3.8 times.
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14:57:51 <oklofok> so, i'm about to have a little monologue now
14:58:21 <oklofok> making this game, as i briefly mentioned earlier, where you program a bot that solves certain puzzles
14:58:28 <oklofok> so i'm making the language now
14:58:47 <oklofok> all my projects are usually language design in disguise
14:58:50 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p633241111.txt
14:59:15 <oklofok> here's all i have on paper yet, most of it is in my head
14:59:49 <oklofok> i have sort of mnemonics, a lot of "functions" with fairly complex semantics, that you can use to build conditions
15:00:04 <oklofok> that's really all there is to it
15:00:18 <oklofok> but that should be the code for a bot that tries to keep in the middle of a platform
15:01:12 <oklofok> there will probably be some kind of higher level symmetry construct later on, so you only need one statement for that
15:02:26 <oklofok> my idea is to make a massive amount of these mnemonics, the problem with making ai's for moving around is usually the constructs you would use when talking to a human are fairly complex, and not that precise
15:03:06 <oklofok> so i'll try to preprogram mnemonics for all kinds of complex concepts there are to moving around in a 2d level
15:05:28 <oklofok> oh, that was it, you can talk again
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15:07:12 <oklofok> ais523: if you read the backlog from a few minutes back, comments!
15:08:54 <ais523> oklofok: did you see the ICFP competition to write an AI for an ants game?
15:09:13 <ais523> basically, you had to write the AI in a Turing-machine-like lang
15:09:24 <ais523> that would have been basically impossible to write by han
15:09:43 <ais523> so the competition was effectively "write a good AI, and a compiler from a language of your choice into our language"
15:10:49 <ais523> http://alliance.seas.upenn.edu/~plclub/cgi-bin/contest/
15:11:05 * ais523 is annoyed that they can't use single-click/middle-click to copy and paste on Windows
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15:12:34 <ais523> maybe when the next ICFP is announced, we should enter a #esoteric team
15:12:52 <ais523> maybe two, actually, if both me and ehird were on the same team we'd use up the entire 72 hours arguing
15:14:01 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p261313163.txt <<< added subconditions, so you can do states implicitly
15:14:18 <ais523> one thing I like about the ICFP is that they never ever specify what lang to use
15:14:28 <ais523> normally they give a description of a lang they've invented for the purpose
15:14:32 <ais523> and tell you to write a compiler or interp for it
15:15:56 <oklofok> i'm trying to design the ai to be fun to program once you learn the mnemonics
15:16:31 <oklofok> do you find the solutions intuitive?
15:16:57 <oklofok> i would love to explain them, of course.
15:17:24 <oklofok> (more like, i'm begging for you to give me an excuse to explain them ;))
15:17:49 <ais523> but explain them anyway
15:18:05 <oklofok> always just triggers "always"
15:18:19 <oklofok> it can't be used but to set stuff, really, so it can be optimized away
15:18:20 <ais523> is it a reactive lang?
15:18:38 <ais523> yes, I was going to suggest event-based
15:18:43 <ais523> like most windowing models
15:18:44 <oklofok> made it long before i even heard of reactive programming
15:18:51 <ais523> that seems to be closest to what you're doing
15:19:12 <oklofok> except the conditions are very clever
15:19:25 <oklofok> you can basically do declarative programming with them
15:19:52 <oklofok> except there's not that much ways to do math, because i'm trying to keep that out altogether
15:20:05 <oklofok> you should be able to make a clever ai without knowing what vectors are
15:20:49 <oklofok> all the triggerings happen inside a bot, a bot is kind of a class, later you can add "objects", and their triggers will work internally to just them
15:20:57 <oklofok> but currently, all you have to know is there are globals
15:21:21 <oklofok> global variables, which actually are just members of the implicit outer class bot, like mov
15:21:44 <oklofok> ah, i haven't explained the structure of the bot
15:22:20 <oklofok> well, the bot is a square-shaped guy with the bottom (well, one of the faces) having wheels
15:22:38 <oklofok> so if you haven't fallen or anything, you can move around
15:22:47 <ais523> can it get knocked over
15:22:50 <ais523> so the wheels are on one side?
15:22:59 <ais523> and could it still move then?
15:23:12 <oklofok> nope, you'd be stuck with just wheels
15:23:35 <oklofok> you have two jets, on both bottom corners of your bot, facing down
15:23:42 <oklofok> well, you can't really get up with them either
15:23:52 <oklofok> i kinda wanted people to have to be careful
15:23:58 <ais523> no, because you'd knock yourself over in the wrong direction
15:24:10 <ais523> can you steer when levitating?
15:24:24 <oklofok> so you can fly pretty freely.
15:24:36 <ais523> presumably you fall down if neither are operating
15:24:41 <ais523> but what happens if only one is operating?
15:24:57 <oklofok> normal gravity, euclidian coordinate system, newtonian physics
15:25:18 <ais523> wow, that's a complicated simulation
15:25:36 <oklofok> jets just add a force to a corner
15:25:42 <oklofok> and collisions add an impact
15:26:08 <oklofok> both are easy to do, especially as the bot is the only moving object
15:28:10 <oklofok> ais523: code for left jet being on: add_impact(corner_where_jet_is, unit(corner_where_jet_is - corner_upwards_of_that) * jet_power)
15:28:22 <oklofok> not left, just code for a jet being on
15:28:34 <ais523> well, it still seems kind-of ridiculously complicated for a simple game
15:28:43 <ais523> will the final version still be ascii art?
15:28:43 <oklofok> add_impact(point_to_add_impact_to, vector)
15:29:40 <oklofok> with a "real number" coordinate system, i can get non determinism much more subtly
15:29:58 <oklofok> which is good, because i can gradually make levels less and less preprogrammable
15:31:10 <oklofok> you see, i want it to be a bit about adjusting the jumps so you hit just the right spot, especially in the beginning
15:31:29 <oklofok> and later, you start using your cam to get the details on the fly, and make the bot adjust its own movement
15:32:44 <oklofok> i was partly inspired by "i wanna be the guy", in some cases you have to have incredible timing and precision
15:32:58 <oklofok> unfortunately i just like the part where i find out the right sequence of movements
15:33:05 <ais523> games which you need to write an AI to play are interesting
15:33:23 <oklofok> yeah, but i'm going for interactiveness here
15:33:35 <oklofok> perhaps many games do, i don't really play that much
15:33:48 <ais523> I've written an AI for several games just for fun
15:33:55 <ais523> also I wrote one for Nibbles because the old one was awful
15:34:01 <ais523> and it's been accepted into Gnome now
15:34:28 <oklofok> you should make a list of your accomplishments
15:34:41 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL is the main esolangy one
15:34:55 <ais523> although Underload gained a bit of a following, and still has one to some extent
15:35:24 <oklofok> i like pretty much all your langs
15:35:41 <ais523> well, I try to make sure they're good-quality before releasing them
15:35:55 <ais523> often I'll try to write an interp
15:36:01 <ais523> especially for the crazier ideas
15:36:13 <ais523> because having an interp helps to establish the boundaries of what's possible
15:36:31 <ais523> for instance, I'll definitely need a Feather interp before I figure out what the spec should be
15:36:34 <ais523> because retroactivity is confusing
15:37:47 <oklofok> when you first talked about feather, i had no idea what the use was for the retroactivity, then later half-invented it myself, when trying to solve the same problem :P
15:38:01 <oklofok> half-invented, because i realized what i was doing was what feather was doing
15:38:25 <ais523> yes, inheritance in classless OO langs can be tricky
15:38:30 <ais523> it has other advantages too
15:38:35 <ais523> all variables are immutable once created
15:38:47 <ais523> meaning there's no need to distinguish between pass-by-reference and pass-by-value
15:39:37 <oklofok> i was thinking about pushing and popping state for safe mutability last night
15:39:50 <ais523> safe mutability's an interesting problem
15:39:59 <ais523> here's one way to do an assignment that I thought of:
15:40:15 <ais523> allocate an unused flag in a global monad
15:40:23 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/straw.txt <<< straw is oop, _func is a member function that changes state, func doesn't change state, but copies
15:40:33 <oklofok> you can define all functions as either, and use them as either
15:40:43 <ais523> retroactively modify the thing you're assigning to have its previous value while that flag's false, and its new value while that flag's true
15:41:31 <ais523> change the flag's state when the command in question is re-evaluated
15:41:51 <ais523> the monad is needed to provide modifiable global state
15:42:01 <ais523> but the great thing about Feather is that it can be retrofitted onto the language
15:42:24 <ais523> by changing the syntax so that all functions get an extra argument and return it or a new version of it, transparently to the user
15:42:35 <ais523> most langs with eval have it so that code can be constructed dynamically
15:42:41 <ais523> Feather has eval so that you can modify it!
15:43:38 <ais523> the ironic thing is that you can modify eval (or at least, the Parser object), and the program is reparsed with the new parser and retroactively rerun from scratch
15:43:59 <ais523> and I /think/ that can be done without introducing an infinite loop
15:44:02 <oklofok> ais523: did you look at straw, and get my _func/func semantics? you might find that interesting
15:44:58 <oklofok> i've tried to think of ways to have a language where there's a simple parsing construct, and every time you parse, you run the program, which changes the syntax, and you parse again
15:45:03 <ais523> I'm not sure I understand straw.txt
15:45:12 <ais523> oklofok: you can do that in Feather
15:45:15 <oklofok> well, the language may be a bit confusing
15:45:21 <oklofok> ais523: yes, but a turing tarpit based on that
15:45:37 <ais523> well, I'm trying to make the base of Feather as tarpitty as possible
15:45:40 <oklofok> ais523: straw.txt is a piece of code written in straw
15:45:44 <ais523> not in this case because I like tarpits
15:45:54 <oklofok> Int is a simple integer class
15:46:02 <ais523> but so that it's possible to alter the very fundamentals of the language without missing anything
15:46:09 <ais523> because everything's based on just a few primitives
15:46:34 <oklofok> initialization, pred is the pointer to the predecessor, you just copy the predecessor of what you're making the integer out of
15:46:59 <ais523> ah, so that you can do after-the-fact inheritance?
15:47:26 <oklofok> i have no inheritance yet, currently it's just about the mutation thing
15:47:26 <ais523> i.e. instantiate an object from a class, modify the class, the object modifies too
15:47:39 <ais523> or instantiate an object from an object if you don't have classes
15:47:46 <oklofok> i don't have anything like that, it's meant to be a pretty static language
15:48:00 <oklofok> the intresting part is this
15:48:16 <oklofok> you can see this changes the state
15:48:32 <oklofok> it assigns the current integer into pred, adding one to the object
15:48:46 <oklofok> (actually should make a copy)
15:49:09 <ais523> does assignment work like in C or like in Prolog?
15:49:18 <ais523> if it works like in Prolog, you never ened copies
15:49:34 <oklofok> and it prints a+1, but a doesn't change
15:49:43 <ais523> ah, how does that work?
15:49:59 <oklofok> but, if you define the function as
15:50:17 <oklofok> but use it as func, it copies the state first, then mutates, then returns
15:50:23 <ais523> it's almost like ._ is an operator
15:50:49 <oklofok> not exactly, it's more like there are always an immutable and a mutable version of a function
15:50:59 <oklofok> _func does the mutation, func doesn't
15:51:13 <oklofok> you get a compile time error for doing mutation in a func
15:51:37 <oklofok> but, pred = this doesn't get an infinite chain, this will be the old state
15:52:27 <oklofok> all this isn't all that interesting yet, of course, but it means you can do things functionally, without actually reallocating things, when i add the push/pop state semantics
15:52:37 <oklofok> like, you can immutably set list!!5 = 3
15:52:43 <oklofok> but what it in fact does is
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15:53:18 * tusho ponders a script to automatically greet ais523
15:53:32 <ais523> tusho: I already started writing a script to automatically greet you
15:54:20 <tusho> ais523: by the way
15:54:20 <tusho> http://colloquy.info/extras/details.php?file=50
15:54:25 <tusho> someone write an s/// corrector ...
15:55:01 <ais523> could it handle the sort of s///s that I do
15:55:14 <ais523> I generally use far too many regex features
15:55:25 <ais523> and if it does, does it allow me to embed arbitrary Perl in my typo corrections?
15:55:30 <ais523> I can think of all sorts of evil uses for that
15:55:38 <ais523> unfortunately, Perl thought of that
15:55:54 <tusho> set cmdLine to "echo \"" & theText & "\" | /usr/bin/perl -e '($s=<>)=~" & theRegex & ";print $s'"
15:56:11 <ais523> and you can't interpolate Perl in a regex if the ?{} or ??{} that embeds it isn't a literal in your program somewhere
15:56:37 <ais523> I can type stuff in, and it is a literal in the program
15:56:47 <tusho> ais523: it only works for your messages.
15:56:50 <ais523> so there's a huge Perl injection hole right there
15:56:55 <ais523> oh, your own messages?
15:56:59 <tusho> and it sends off a correction
15:57:03 <tusho> that is, it says something like
15:57:06 <tusho> correction (s///): new line
15:57:20 <ais523> pity, I was hoping it would correct other people's statements if they did a s///
15:57:31 <ais523> so it would be possible to inject Perl into other people's IRC clients
15:57:39 <tusho> ais523: well, even if it did the perl would just run on your machine...
15:57:51 <tusho> no it hooks into the input field
15:58:50 <tusho> ais523: wtf, root wants to repeal partnerships
15:58:54 <tusho> what a load of shit
15:59:19 <ais523> tusho: well, given what a mess they've made
15:59:24 <tusho> ais523: move convo
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19:44:10 <Slereah_> Is the "coolest" related to the fact that it is "the only one"?
19:47:25 -!- tusho has set topic: The foremost international hub for enterprise esoteric programming language design, development and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
19:54:54 <GregorR> tusho: I still need mipses D-8
19:55:03 <GregorR> tusho: For pids, for signals.
19:55:24 <tusho> GregorR: No, you don't.
19:55:36 <tusho> You can do it nicely, I'm sure. :P
19:55:45 <tusho> GregorR: Anyway, get gcc working, damnit
19:55:54 <GregorR> pids in a conventional UNIX system /is/ just an array of processes.
19:56:12 <tusho> GregorR: Anyway, get gcc working, damnit
19:57:55 <tusho> GregorR: On this machine.
19:59:15 <GregorR> Yes, I know to what you refer.
19:59:33 <tusho> gregorr p3 71.237.179.105 19:57 - sh
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20:05:19 <tusho> gregorr p3 71.237.179.105 19:57 5 botnet
20:05:54 <GregorR> Hm, it's supposed to block itself from the process list. Do you have a kernel with that vulnerability fixed?
20:06:23 <tusho> GregorR: Naturally. It's OS X.
20:06:35 * tusho watches GregorR recoil at the non-freeity
20:06:47 <GregorR> It's taking advantage of a vulnerability in OS X's also-F/OSS kernel.
20:08:21 <tusho> GregorR: Installed?
20:08:25 <tusho> (In /opt/jsmips, that is.)
20:09:04 * tusho promptly revokes your access
20:09:21 <tusho> GregorR: I love my welcome.
20:09:43 <GregorR> So anyway, adding mipses back.
20:13:51 <tusho> GregorR: As long as you get backspace and delete working. :-P
20:14:33 <tusho> 07:12:52 <ais523> maybe two, actually, if both me and ehird were on the same team we'd use up the entire 72 hours arguing
20:14:41 <tusho> don't you have to be there in person?
20:14:48 <tusho> that would be weird
20:15:57 <tusho> oklopol: your lang is cool
20:16:00 <tusho> I wanna play that game
20:16:07 <tusho> oklopol: make it use a level format so we can make our own
20:17:25 <tusho> btw oklopol http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/straw.txt what is that
20:17:50 <augur_> dont encourage oklopol
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20:19:58 <tusho> GregorR: delete&backspace
20:20:25 <GregorR> Not in the immediate future, no.
20:20:37 <GregorR> Not until termios in general is working.
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20:21:08 <tusho> Get signals working the
20:21:25 <tusho> GregorR: btw, your development speed is amazing
20:21:31 <tusho> you made me realise how slow I am :-)
20:21:42 <tusho> I write like 10 lines and go and browse the net and irc for half an hour
20:22:14 <GregorR> I've got signals half-implemented from last night.
20:22:23 <GregorR> I half-implemented them then realized I was using .num as .pid :P
20:22:33 <GregorR> And went DAMN IT DAMN IT DAMN IT
20:23:39 <tusho> GregorR: What's wrong with that?
20:23:59 <GregorR> It had already been removed :P
20:27:10 <tusho> GregorR: so just re-add mips
20:27:15 <tusho> and no rewriting needed
20:27:20 <GregorR> I did, I was just telling you that :P
20:27:41 <GregorR> I took that as an excuse to go to sleep, since it was 3AM :P
20:31:19 <oklopol> tusho: straw is a language of mine
20:31:25 <tusho> oklopol: i kinda like it
20:31:29 <tusho> but remove the explicit type declarations
20:32:11 <oklopol> those are *usually* omittable
20:32:43 <oklopol> but, nulls can be any type, and currently i want all variables' types to be deducable from their first use
20:32:43 <oerjan> oklopol is a straw man
20:32:52 <oklopol> but i may remove that obligation
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20:54:21 <tusho> oklopol: zonky doodles
20:54:28 <tusho> you'll thank me later
20:55:10 <oklopol> well, null is simply an atom.
20:55:24 <oklopol> because i didn't have any data types when i started making the integer class
20:55:45 <tusho> oklopol: remove null
20:55:47 <tusho> you will thank me later
20:56:05 <oklopol> so... i should build integers out of... nothing?
20:56:13 <oklopol> anyway, what's wrong with null?
20:56:29 <tusho> oklopol: null is the source of so many bugs when you didn't expect a null but get one anyway and try and operate on it
20:56:35 <tusho> the dances required to avoid it bloat code needlessly
20:56:42 <tusho> oklopol: and you should build integers like this
20:56:53 <tusho> class NonZero < Int;
20:57:09 <tusho> but you can take the successor of Ints
20:57:12 <tusho> and they hold 'Int pred'
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20:57:19 <tusho> which obviously can point to either a zero or a non-zero
20:57:41 <tusho> this also means that the 'null of integers' (0) is distinguished from other nulls and has a good type (specifically, Int)
20:57:43 <oklopol> there's no inheritance yet, but otherwise, yeah, that's better.
20:57:59 <tusho> yeah, I haven't seen a use of null that couldn't be replaced by something better like that
20:59:48 <oklopol> i return Nones all the time in python
20:59:55 <oklopol> and i don't ever have bugs
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21:00:11 <oklopol> you are right in that it's ugly, and never necessary.
21:01:10 <tusho> oklopol: yeah, it's mostly when you get more subtle stuff
21:01:15 <tusho> like, two classes interacting with each other
21:01:29 <tusho> and also the culture of python often means you end up checking for Nones as a matter of practice
21:03:34 <oklopol> straw is a really weird language anyway, although you cannot see it from that example
21:03:43 <oklopol> but as you can probably guess as i'm the one making it
21:03:52 <oklopol> but i'm not currently working on it, so you'll have twait
21:04:05 <oklopol> but i'll remove atoms, i was going to anyway, once i get integers
21:04:30 <tusho> oklopol: and then you can remove type declarations! yay
21:04:43 <oklopol> the current version already has strings, because parsing can be somewhat changed on the fly
21:04:50 <oklopol> so integers are kind of a must :P
21:05:23 <tusho> oklopol: can you make the default syntax not so javay
21:05:39 <tusho> oklopol: crazy idea,
21:05:45 <oklopol> what would you want to change?
21:05:50 <tusho> i think it might look a lot nicer
21:06:11 <tusho> just replace } with ;
21:06:46 <tusho> ret this.inc().add( a.pred );;
21:06:57 <tusho> it's like indentation syntax, but with no indentation requirements
21:07:59 <oklopol> you cannot change the actual syntax, so default syntax is a misleading term, btw
21:08:07 <oklopol> you can change the syntax of literals, mostly
21:08:16 <tusho> oklopol: well, whatever
21:08:19 <tusho> just do what I said :-P
21:08:38 <oklopol> well, tbh i like the java way :P
21:09:04 <oklopol> well, the usual way is what i would call it
21:09:21 <oerjan> "i love the java jive and it loves me..."
21:10:03 <Slereah_> What about the Brainfuck Boogie?
21:10:10 <tusho> oklopol: but look what you can do with my syntax
21:10:10 <tusho> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p612113313.txt
21:10:50 <oklopol> well i gotta say that's pretty cool
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21:12:14 <tusho> oklopol: I love this bit
21:13:16 <oklopol> tusho: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p614236522.txt in case you want to see the third level
21:13:31 <oklopol> i'm not sure if i'll actually have that simple levels
21:13:34 <tusho> oklopol: i assume there will be boss fights
21:13:37 <tusho> and there should be
21:13:39 <tusho> to get used to the language
21:13:47 <tusho> e.g. you could introduce a bit of the language at each one
21:13:52 <tusho> a 'tutorial sector' as such
21:13:58 <oklopol> well yeah, first levels are just about moving around
21:13:58 <tusho> oklopol: and allow user created levels
21:14:06 <tusho> i'll make a jump 'n shoot game with it
21:14:20 <oklopol> after flying, some timing & flow control
21:14:45 <oklopol> and after that, you start to generalize, because levels become non preprogrammable
21:15:11 <oklopol> like enemies, you can't just decide exactly what to do, because they move a bit randomly
21:15:14 <tusho> oklopol: I will make a game that has loads of evil robots floating about and honing in on your dude
21:15:16 <oklopol> you have wheels, and two jets
21:15:20 <tusho> and you fall down if they shoot you
21:15:23 <tusho> and there's platforms and stuff
21:15:25 <tusho> and you have to get to the top
21:15:44 <oklopol> did you read the code examples?
21:16:13 <tusho> oh, and I'll write a boss at the end
21:16:15 <oklopol> i'm not trying to make the language usable for the average dude, but it should be somewhat intuitive and nice to someone with programming experience
21:16:17 <tusho> that seperates into like 50 robots
21:16:19 <tusho> and goes back together
21:17:20 <oklopol> as a separate game or a user created level? :P
21:18:19 <oklopol> anyway, comments on/questions about the language, in case you have something on your mind
21:18:54 <oklopol> although it's not the language that worries me, it's the fact i'm not sure how impacts should be inflicted, and i'm not really the kinda guy who doesn't invent that stuff himself
21:19:31 <oklopol> wish i'd listened @ physics lessons
21:20:23 <oklopol> i actually stormed out of the mechanics class when the teacher started talking about radians and told us they were "a bit harder than degrees, so you should always convert them to degrees"
21:20:42 <tusho> oklopol: as a created level in the game
21:20:54 <oklopol> and committing to the act is just important enough for me not to take the whole course.
21:21:24 <oklopol> i'm not sure how i'll do levels, should i perhaps allow you to use python for that? i'm probably implementing this in python anyway
21:21:47 <tusho> oklopol: write your own language for it, but let you write python too
21:21:50 <oklopol> opinions, i mean, i may end up inventing another language for that too, otherwise.
21:21:51 <tusho> in case they get too complex
21:22:25 <tusho> oklopol: oh, and I'm about to start publishing a blag on code that I write and stuff and you should totally read it just sayin'.
21:22:34 <oklopol> well, perhaps a simple map editor, for moving pieces, predesigned enemies and stuff like that, and python modules for stuff like bosses
21:23:39 <oklopol> uhh the language is so awesome
21:23:51 <oklopol> i need to write down the stuff i invented on the way to the shop...
21:24:20 <oklopol> i have "phases", in case you've read the paste
21:24:35 <oklopol> then only events of that phase apply
21:25:00 <oklopol> but, you may have a hierarchy of phases, where a set of phases kinda inherit a phase
21:25:10 <oklopol> which means you can have a kinda ordered behavior
21:25:19 <oklopol> still have a rule for not running off a cliff
21:25:29 <oklopol> which is always on, on the bottom
21:27:12 <oklopol> so, you could for instance make something like a "safe mode module", which you just import, and it'll keep you from running into spikes and shit :-)
21:27:36 <oklopol> not that anyone will actually write something like that, but i like the thought
21:32:35 <tusho> oklopol: oh jeez I just came up with the best design for my blahhg
21:32:40 <tusho> why didn't I think of that before
21:33:33 <tusho> oklopol: it's very awesome
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21:58:24 <tusho> oklopol: decide something about my blahhhg for me.
21:58:36 <tusho> should it generate static files for posts and stuff or should it generate them on request.
21:58:45 <tusho> one's easier (generate on request) the other's better (static) :-P
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22:33:57 <AnMaster> generate on request but cache them?
22:37:04 <tusho> well obviously I'd cache it AnMaster
22:39:10 <tusho> oklopol: roll the dice yourself then
22:46:11 <augur> oklopol: you'd so hate the sugar i've made :)
22:46:42 <tusho> oklopol: should i align my blaagh to the left, right or center
22:46:46 <tusho> (REALLY IMPORTANT)
22:46:53 <tusho> of course not totally left or right
22:46:56 <tusho> a large margin would be there
22:47:04 <tusho> <---------------------------- like this much
22:47:36 <augur> so tusho, i've got a bunch a WHOLE bunch of sugar that effectively covers up this:
22:48:16 <oklopol> augur: i promise i will hate it
22:48:26 <augur> :{ <condition> ? @ = <value 1> : @ = <value 2> }
22:49:03 <augur> or for multiple multiple conditions,
22:49:35 <augur> :{<cond1> ? @ = <value 1>
22:49:35 <augur> <cond 2> ? @ = <value 2>
22:49:38 <augur> true ? @ = <value 3> }
22:49:56 <oklopol> well you haven't really changed anything
22:50:03 <oklopol> so i'm afraid i have to let you down
22:50:21 <tusho> augur: too many @s dude
22:50:39 <tusho> :{ <cond> ? <val1> : <val2> } <-- nicer
22:51:32 <augur> no, thats what it's sugar for
22:51:50 <augur> if ... then ... else ...
22:51:53 <augur> and a bunch of other stuff
22:52:15 <oklopol> ah well of course i hate that
22:52:40 <augur> oklopol, tusho doesnt know the details of the language so he doesnt know what :{ ... } is or why its necessary
22:52:49 <tusho> it occurs to me, augur, that you're trying to disguise its reactiveness
22:52:55 <tusho> in functional-esque sugar
22:53:07 <augur> no, im trying to make it easy to code things that aren't reactive in nature.
22:53:40 <augur> i mean, if you need to _set_ a variable locally to something conditionally, then it makes absolutely no sense to use reactions explicitly
22:53:49 <augur> thats just unnecessary garbage getting in the wayf
22:54:00 <tusho> augur: refactor the code to be reactive, then
22:54:16 <tusho> most problems can fit into paradigm P
22:54:24 <tusho> nicer than if there was a sugar for using paradigm X in paradigm P and coding in X
22:54:25 <augur> im not saying it CANT fit into the paradigm
22:54:45 <tusho> augur: almost never is there a case where it wouldn't be better to refactor
22:54:46 <augur> im just saying that some things are easier to do without having to think about the paradigm in question
22:55:20 <augur> deciding temporary values is not something that needs to be refactored to fit into the paradigm
22:55:31 <augur> because all it is is shit work, its nothing fundamental to the code
22:56:20 <augur> sure, you could write a thunk lambda and call it with conditional reactions, but that tells you nothing more than anything else does
22:57:33 <augur> furthermore, if you have two large blocks of code with different collections of reactions in them, each mutually exclusive, then its silly to have big lists of reactions all with the same conditions on them
22:57:51 <augur> that would look stupid.
22:58:49 <tusho> augur: if..end, ugh
22:58:56 <tusho> at least support {..}
22:58:57 <tusho> or indentation syntax
22:59:45 <oklopol> (straw has them, but it's not a pure language anyway)
23:00:12 <tusho> augur: i don't, fix your language.
23:00:29 <augur> tusho: i think i'll stick with your previous suggestion and do what makes sense to me :)
23:00:40 <tusho> augur: i think i'll kill you in your sleep
23:00:49 <augur> dont make me rape you.
23:01:44 <olsner> augur: mind you, you're speaking of raping a 12 year old
23:01:55 <augur> olsner: don't bring up tusho's age.
23:01:58 <augur> he doesn't like it.
23:02:02 <augur> on the other hand: THATS THE HUMOR.
23:02:12 <tusho> augur: actually, no, I don't mind it
23:02:26 <tusho> unless you're using it to explain how my arguments suck
23:02:35 <olsner> otoh, it would be much funnier if he *did* mind
23:02:35 <tusho> (with an alternate explanation of me being mentally retarded)
23:04:26 <olsner> hey, you're in #esoteric, you've got to be mentally *something*
23:04:51 <augur> i think we're all mentally superior to people who dont make programmig languages.
23:05:10 <augur> and maybe a little mentally fucked since we make weird ones.
23:05:23 <tusho> olsner: completely bonkers, yes -- but after the third time augur says 'if i didn't know you were 12 i'd guess, either that or you're mentally retarded' it gets kinda tiring
23:05:43 <augur> actually i said that only once, tusho
23:05:44 <tusho> augur: that's pretty pretentious, i assume you were joking about the superiority thing though
23:05:50 <tusho> and no, I can dig it up twice in the logs if you like
23:05:54 <olsner> hmm... boring for you, an in-joke for everyone else :P
23:06:19 <augur> pretentious? program language designers > all
23:06:26 <tusho> olsner: an 'in-joke' for augur, I don't mind other jokes about my age. actually, I recall ais523 complaining to him about it a few days ago too
23:06:51 <augur> ais complaining to me?
23:06:57 <tusho> augur: pretty sure, yes
23:06:57 <augur> sure, after you brought up your age and he thought i did.
23:07:01 <augur> which is telling, i think.
23:07:43 <tusho> augur: Actually, he complained to me about mentioning it first in private.
23:07:50 <tusho> And you'll notice I haven't since then.
23:08:02 <augur> i mean, look where this conversation is and i didnt even bring it up!
23:08:06 <augur> im not talking about it any more
23:08:07 <tusho> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.06.15 <-- first use
23:08:07 <tusho> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.06.17 <-- second use and ais523's complaint
23:08:23 <tusho> now, on a totally different topic..
23:10:51 <augur> i still dont think that having if...else statements is impure
23:10:56 <augur> its just a convenience
23:11:06 <augur> and theres a difference.
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23:12:15 <oklopol> ais523 clearly complained to augur, and didn't misunderstand anything
23:12:32 <augur> oklopol, he complained to me and did misunderstand. :P
23:12:53 <oklopol> he may have misunderstood, but i assure you it did not affect the result
23:12:58 <tusho> augur: considering he complained to me in private for bringing it up immediately after, I doubt it
23:13:03 <tusho> let's shut up about my age, k.
23:13:39 <tusho> I am in a quantum superposition of being aged 12 and being mentally retarded.
23:13:40 <augur> really tho, they're just conveniences
23:14:02 <tusho> (Hmm. 'Collapse my wave function, baby')
23:14:03 <augur> like i said, x = :{ ... } is just as good as x = if ... then ...
23:14:24 <augur> but if ... then ... us much easier to understand
23:14:40 <augur> and the latter will be preprocessed into the former
23:14:54 <augur> remember, my implementation isn't supposed to be (as) esoteric as oklopols.
23:15:07 <augur> im trying to make mine semi usable :P
23:16:11 <tusho> is there an icon in unicode for 'home
23:16:20 <oklopol> tusho: well, which are you?
23:16:28 <oklopol> and remember, we're not bringing up Age.
23:16:36 <tusho> oklopol: dunno, you're the one who observed me
23:17:24 <augur> guys guys guys, there is no way to determine how wave functions collapse, you can only observe the collapse and see what comes out
23:17:36 <augur> also, tusho you stole my fursona. :|
23:18:03 <tusho> [insert boilerplate furry joke]
23:19:15 <tusho> ⌘ place of interest sign!
23:19:20 <tusho> and also apple computer logo.
23:19:59 <tusho> "⌘ tusho in 2008, 2009"
23:20:14 <tusho> where the place of interest sign links to /, tusho to /about, and 2008 & 2009 to /in/year
23:20:29 <tusho> augur: i needed another year to test the look of it
23:20:37 <augur> i'd figure more in 2014 when you're legal but whatever
23:20:52 <augur> er.. the look of..what?
23:20:53 <tusho> augur: as i've said before, if I move to japan i'll be legal in august
23:21:00 <tusho> and that's my anti-blaahhg-header.
23:21:10 <tusho> oklopol: ... did you actually look that up?
23:21:12 <oklopol> for boys it's 16-18 or something
23:21:19 <tusho> if so, darn, I'll have to get a sex change operation first
23:21:20 <oklopol> i've checked legal ages of all countries
23:21:21 <augur> yeah but im not interesting in guys your age either so :P
23:21:35 <tusho> augur: apart from raping them illegally, right?
23:21:58 <tusho> purity > rape > sex
23:22:04 <augur> ofcourse. you were asking for it, dressing like that
23:22:05 <oklopol> i'm starting to doubt these inequaliries.
23:22:13 <oklopol> tusho: well when you put it that way
23:22:39 <augur> inequalities can always be trusted.
23:22:54 <augur> also, i like that you can implement < >= and <= in terms of just >
23:23:12 <tusho> are you playing with gregor's thing?
23:23:28 <augur> wow, i didnt even think of that
23:23:33 <augur> tusho, dont be such a faggot
23:23:41 <augur> im watching 61C at berkeley
23:23:44 <tusho> augur: i thought you were the gay one
23:23:45 <Phenax> SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADUPPPP!!!
23:24:09 <augur> 61C is berkeley's cpu hardware course
23:24:19 <augur> and the professors teaching the class using the MIPS design
23:24:36 <augur> which has only slt
23:24:49 <Phenax> one tyme my profesor did dat 2 and i was like holy shat i got like 4 routersa that are MIPS
23:24:55 <augur> it has no > >= or <= operators
23:25:01 <Phenax> routers are chippest mips boxes
23:25:03 <tusho> Phenax is in #loveclub
23:25:06 <tusho> best channel name ever
23:25:30 <augur> love club = a club for lovers?
23:25:42 <tusho> augur: a club (that you hit things with) for the purposes of love
23:25:43 <augur> = your club for loving?
23:25:51 <augur> tusho: gotta make sure, man
23:26:01 <Phenax> we're all lovers i nthe channel we have giant orgies and shit
23:26:18 <augur> sure you're not talking about #esoteric/#linguistics/#isharia/...
23:26:38 <Phenax> if u all dont mind 20 cox and no vagoo we can have an orgy
23:27:08 <tusho> well we're back to our usual topic i see
23:27:20 <augur> or as oklopol would say
23:27:23 <augur> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:27:32 <tusho> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:27:44 <Phenax> wats the best energy drink
23:27:49 <Phenax> preferably 16 oz less dan 2 dolla
23:28:03 <augur> bawls isnt reeeaaally an energy drink but its tasty
23:28:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:28:17 <Phenax> i dont like knowing my money is prolly majority paying for the bottle, lol
23:28:32 <lament> you scared oerjan away :(
23:28:38 <Phenax> my friend has liek 500 bawls bottles in his room
23:28:42 <Phenax> he has an epic collection
23:28:54 <Phenax> i dont really care how it tastes]
23:29:02 <Phenax> i go to class with like 2-3 hours of sleep every day
23:29:08 <Phenax> and need to wake up easily
23:29:08 <lament> augur lieks to sux bawls
23:29:16 <augur> thats all you care about
23:29:17 <Phenax> without using speed or cocaine
23:29:22 <tusho> lament: you beat me
23:29:36 <lament> just like i beat your mom last night!
23:29:37 <augur> lament, that'd be funny if it weren't so very very true
23:29:43 <Phenax> well i kinjda care about the taste but i mostly care about the waking me up part
23:29:49 <tusho> Phenax: your usage of language disturbs me ('less dan 2 dolla')
23:29:52 <augur> phenax: if thats what you're looking for, just get caffeine pills.
23:29:52 <Phenax> even if it only wakes me up for an hour or two and then crashes meh
23:29:53 <lament> augur: nah, it's still funny.
23:30:04 <augur> i agree with tusho
23:30:20 <Phenax> augur: im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class
23:30:26 <Phenax> campus securiy canna b liek waddat
23:30:37 <augur> just dissolve the pills in your beverage of choice before hand.
23:30:47 <Phenax> ill disovle them in an energy drink lawl
23:30:49 <oklopol> Phenax: blend caffeine pills into a delicious wake-up goo
23:30:50 <augur> it's cheaper than getting a drink.
23:31:15 <Phenax> BUT I ALSO WANT TO FUCKIHN BURP IN MY PROFESSORS FACE AND IT NEEDS TO SMELL LIEK ENERGY
23:31:31 <augur> i suggest power thirst then
23:31:41 <oklopol> well, you will probably diarrhea on him with that goo?
23:31:50 <tusho> Phenax: your english makes me want to stab you.
23:31:54 <Phenax> no wai den hed mar kme down
23:31:55 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs
23:32:02 <tusho> {im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class} <-- FUCKING KILL
23:32:20 <tusho> augur: total ripoff of the brawndo ads
23:32:37 <tusho> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04
23:32:48 <Phenax> i dun wan be a kenya cuz den i b black n shiz
23:33:00 <augur> KENYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:33:28 <augur> ok so firstly tusho
23:33:34 <augur> powerthirst is older
23:33:42 <tusho> augur: no, that was just when it was posted
23:33:45 <tusho> brawndo is from a movie.
23:34:16 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy sez google
23:34:24 <tusho> 2006, sez wikipedia
23:34:30 <Phenax> randall is betta dan spinelli olol
23:34:59 <augur> Despite the small release and lack of promotion, Idiocracy has grown to have a strong following. In 2007, Omni Consumer Products [15] (named after the fictitious RoboCop corporation) and Redux Beverages introduced a real Brawndo energy drink.[16] It is marketed online with a tongue-in-cheek YouTube advertisement featuring the voice of comedian Mark Little, inspired by one of his sketches called "Powerthirst."[17]
23:35:12 <tusho> augur: oh, okay then
23:35:18 <augur> IN YOUR FACE TUSHO. UNF.
23:35:21 <tusho> it just looked like a ripoff
23:35:30 <augur> well its the other way around
23:35:36 <augur> the brawndo ad was the ripoff
23:35:41 <augur> or, more accurately
23:35:50 <augur> its a redux by the same comedian
23:36:17 <augur> http://www.districtlines.com/Picnicface
23:36:22 <GregorR> tusho: I got rudimentary signals working.
23:36:31 <GregorR> Oops, forgot to commit the new newlib patch >_>
23:36:31 <Phenax> hey duz any1 remember dat scotish helicopta from dat 1 tv sho fo kids?????
23:36:36 <augur> im going to make a 400 babies t-shirt
23:36:48 <tusho> lament: make Phenax go away
23:37:00 <Phenax> dont h8 da playa h8 da game son
23:37:21 <Phenax> h8in on me cuz u innit got no skillz wat
23:37:44 <Phenax> it was j j the jet plain
23:38:45 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:41:07 <augur> hey lets all block phenax
23:41:36 <tusho> augur: he had stopped there
23:41:57 <augur> BUT THINK OF THE FUTURE
23:42:11 <Phenax> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooOOOooooooOOOOOooooOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoooooOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoooOOOOOooooOOOOoooooOOOOOoooooOOOOOOoooooOOOOoooooOOOOoooooOOOOOOooooooOOOooooooOOOOOooooOOOOOOoooOOOOOooooOO
23:42:57 <tusho> hey Phenax let's have gay sex in /msg
23:43:42 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mycelium
23:43:56 <augur> a mushroom based esolang?
23:43:59 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
23:44:12 -!- tusho has joined.
23:44:27 <AnMaster> augur, nah, but inspired by befunge
23:44:35 <AnMaster> I guess the name too is inspired
23:49:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
23:49:16 <lament> tusho: what's a good hostmask?
23:49:47 <lament> it's a dynamic ip anyway isn't it
23:50:02 <Phenax> this is just a server that my irc client is on
23:50:07 <tusho> lament: Phenax!n=Phenax?
23:50:12 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out).
23:50:14 <tusho> Phenax: your english just improved markedly
23:50:20 <tusho> have you got multiple personality disorder?
23:50:48 <oklopol> lament: kick me while you have +o!
23:50:55 <oklopol> i get my kicks out of that
23:51:03 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:51:08 <tusho> kickban, lament, plz
23:51:14 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:51:22 <tusho> KICKBAN ME DAMNIT LAMENT
23:51:25 <tusho> oklopol: NO! KICKBAN!
23:51:30 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*.
23:51:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:53:12 <oklopol> lament: i don't think he wanted a permanent ban :P
23:53:43 <lament> well, we'll never know
23:54:16 <AnMaster> lament, please please unban it
23:54:48 <lament> AnMaster: tusho says, NO.
23:55:01 <augur> no, tusho is ehird.
23:55:03 <lament> he also says that people who want to unban him are idiots.
23:55:03 <oklopol> someone had to be the martyr
23:55:23 <oklopol> so people like Phenax would know what the consequences are for messing around
23:55:41 -!- someguy has joined.
23:55:49 <Phenax> SWEET!@ IO MESSED AROUND N HE GOT BAN :>>>>>
23:55:53 <someguy> you guys just banned my brother?
23:56:10 <oklopol> someguy: big/little brother?
23:56:19 <someguy> oklopol: i'm like 23, I lose count
23:56:28 <AnMaster> lament, you *could* have kickbanned Phenax
23:56:43 <lament> AnMaster: that actually seems like a good idea.
23:56:46 <someguy> lament: unban my brother you dickwad
23:56:52 <AnMaster> http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/
23:57:00 <augur> ehird pretending to be his own brother
23:57:15 <oklopol> lament: yeah motherfucker unban him or i'll kill you and your kids
23:57:24 <someguy> he just told me over /msg, actually
23:57:31 <augur> AINT YOU GOT PHUDE IN BRITAINLAND
23:57:56 <lament> someguy: you're in the same house yet you talk on IRC?
23:58:09 <someguy> lament: like we'd MOVE between ROOMS
23:58:34 <oklopol> i often talk to my gf via irc while sitting next to her
23:58:40 <oklopol> who wants to talk when you can type
23:59:06 <someguy> lament: unban my brother would you
23:59:16 <GregorR> echo hi | ( read x ; echo $x ) works now 8-D
23:59:21 <someguy> lament: because it's midnight, duh.
23:59:39 <GregorR> tusho: Gee, you logged off ...
23:59:58 <someguy> GregorR: tusho is my brother