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00:45:55 <ihope> So, nonlinear acoustics.
00:52:39 <ihope> Wait, it's all about waves changing shape slightly as they propagate?
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01:46:19 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/dc.html // first program working on jsmips that wasn't written as a test for jsmips :)
01:46:44 <ihope> Okololoponokonololo!
01:46:44 <augur> oklolove, we need to formalize the syntax for the language
01:47:36 <ihope> Lot's tro to olomonoto oll vowols oxcopt for o. :-P
01:48:02 <ihope> Soo, yoo'ro gottong tho hong of ot.
01:48:15 <ihope> Goo, thot soonds dorto. :-P
01:48:48 <ihope> "Tho hong of ot". Interesting :-P
01:48:51 <ihope> Or we could just eliminate H, as I'm so fond of doing.
01:49:19 <ihope> Of course, doing so would mean we couldn't say "the" very often.
01:49:22 <lament> augur: the world is not big enough for both of us. Prepare to die.
01:49:27 <ihope> Names don't count, you see. :-)
01:50:10 <augur> we could team up and take the world over, and then conquer the universe. o.o
01:50:11 <ihope> And we need to resort to stuff like "doing so" instead of "that".
01:50:16 <augur> all while having lots of gaysex,
01:51:22 <ihope> And we'd need to find lots of synonyms for everything, like some example I devised but forgot.
01:52:05 <ihope> It's difficult to find synonyms for stuff like "thought up", I suppose.
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04:31:30 <GregorR> Well, I got dc working ...
04:31:36 <GregorR> What should my next goal be?
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04:54:33 <GregorR> UNIX dc, the "desk calculator"
04:54:49 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/dc.html
04:56:30 <augur> whats with the enormorray?
04:56:59 <GregorR> ELF is /the/ binary format.
04:57:49 <GregorR> I don't know of any way to make that array smaller :P
04:58:10 <GregorR> Well, I guess I could compress it.
04:58:21 <GregorR> But then I'd need to write a decompresser in JavaScript :P
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06:04:24 <calamari> hi Gregor.. have I annoyed you thoroughly with dumb plant requests?
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06:38:40 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
06:39:17 <GregorR> Why yes, that IS the Bourne shell.
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08:07:21 <olsner> signalstack(2) failed with: Not supported?
08:09:06 <puzzlet> running something on jsmips?
08:11:12 <olsner> yes, the bourne shell linked to above
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08:28:23 <augur> you need to add in normal interfacing, instead of that text box at the bottom
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10:02:42 <GregorR> augur: The text box is just where the input is caught, so you can have other things on the page without it interfering.
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15:54:10 <tusho> GregorR: HOW COULD YOU GET SH WORKING WITHOUT ME
16:01:42 <tusho> GregorR: btw, your read mechanism sucks
16:01:45 <tusho> mind if I make it non-sucky
16:06:34 <tusho> GregorR's MIPS cpu simulator ... in javascript
16:06:42 <tusho> he's got the bourne sh(1) working
16:06:55 <tusho> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
16:09:52 <deveah> start you goddamn freaking javashit machine!1!1!1!1sigaltstack(2) failed with: N
16:14:15 <tusho> deveah: java != javascript
16:14:38 <tusho> deveah: Also, use firefox 3 or a webkit nightly.
16:14:43 <tusho> It starts up in less than a second.
16:15:01 <deveah> i use Opera and I'm not gonna change it
16:16:10 <tusho> deveah: Enjoy your piss poor javascript speed.
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16:32:55 <oklopol> i thought i'd never see the day we have two ".*eah"'s on #esoteric.
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16:33:20 <oklopol> it's like looking in a mirror!
16:34:03 <oklopol> sorry, i don't feel like contaminating my nick with lesser vocals :<
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16:38:39 <tusho> I think this is one of the few days I
16:38:43 <tusho> 've been online for like an hour before you
16:38:57 <ais523> tusho: actually, I was online about half an hour ago but forgot to log onto IRC
16:38:57 <deveah> "deveah" comes from the pronounciation of my initials
16:39:35 <tusho> first came here yesterday
16:39:51 <ais523> tusho: what with regulars changing their usernames, it's sometimes hard to tell
16:40:03 <tusho> ais523: i think you over-estimate how much that happens
16:40:09 <tusho> oklopol->oklofok is the only regular one
16:40:16 <tusho> and the only recent permanent one was mine
16:40:17 <ais523> tusho: well, you changed permanently recently
16:40:26 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure there was one before that too
16:40:29 <ais523> but I can't remember who
16:40:44 <tusho> ais523: Slereah_ used to be ANantes, or something
16:40:53 <tusho> oh, and I maintain that AAAAAAue4njxuz was someone having a laugh
16:40:55 <deveah> tusho, what was your last nick?
16:40:57 <tusho> that hasn't restarted their machine yet
16:44:13 <oklopol> deveah: so you do brainfuck?
16:44:41 <oklopol> it's the standard question
16:44:45 <deveah> but i like the language
16:44:59 <tusho> oklopol: and if you answer 'yes' you have to name 3 other esolangs
16:44:59 <ais523> well, it's the standard way people find this channel
16:45:05 <tusho> if you can't bzzzt! boom! bang! gone.
16:45:15 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of Brainfuck, myself.
16:45:17 <deveah> i'm working on an esolang based on OISC
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16:45:33 <ais523> deveah: ah, that's an interesting way to start
16:45:36 <tusho> ais523: GregorR got the bourne shell working in JSMIPS
16:45:36 <pikhq> Of course, having written PEBBLE, that's a bit of a necessity.
16:45:47 <pikhq> tusho: He did? Jebus.
16:45:48 <tusho> http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html (Yes, you WILL need to use Firefox, and Firefox 3 at that)
16:45:56 <pikhq> GregorR: You're far too clever for your own good.
16:45:59 <tusho> Anything less than firefox 3 or a webkit nightly = YOUR MACHINE SHALL CRASH AND BURN
16:46:05 <deveah> Let's take three integers:
16:46:06 <deveah> If A and B are either registers, either given integers and C is register, the
16:46:06 <deveah> value in register C is either equal to A + B (if C is a type I register), or A * B (if C is a type II register).
16:46:06 <deveah> If C is not a register, and is a given value, if A = B (either register or given
16:46:06 <deveah> value), then jump to position C.
16:46:08 <deveah> If C is an input register ($0 for everything, gets asc of chars), and A is a register,
16:46:10 <deveah> A's value is changed to the user input.
16:46:11 <tusho> ais523: RC2 or above?
16:46:12 <deveah> If C is an output register ($3 for chars, $4 for integers), and A is a register,
16:46:13 <tusho> deveah: stop flooding
16:46:14 <deveah> A's value is outputted.
16:46:16 <deveah> Normal registers start with !; special registers start with $.
16:46:18 <deveah> 0 0 0 ends the program
16:46:21 <ais523> so, it doesn't work properly on Linux
16:46:26 <deveah> it's the Purice theory
16:46:27 <tusho> ais523: upgrade then ;)
16:46:30 <tusho> the ubuntu repos have it
16:46:36 <tusho> deveah: use a pastebin in future
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16:47:27 <deveah> isn't my theory clear enough?
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16:48:37 <pikhq> tusho: It works on Konqueror.
16:48:56 <ais523> connection troubles again
16:49:00 <ais523> tusho: paste the link again, so I have it?
16:49:07 <ais523> either that or I'd have to check logs, and I don't want to
16:49:09 <tusho> pikhq: but s l o w l y
16:49:14 <tusho> ais523: http://www.codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
16:49:22 <ais523> tusho: I don't have rc2
16:49:24 <deveah> everybody, join #something!
16:49:25 <pikhq> No, it works at a decent speed, actually.
16:49:30 <ais523> Ubuntu are slow at packaging Firefox, for some reason
16:49:33 <tusho> ais523: there's an ubuntu repo for it
16:49:45 <pikhq> Of course, then again, I'm on a horrendously overspec'ed workstation ATM.
16:49:58 <tusho> ais523: About to install a mediawiki on rutain FWIW
16:50:19 <ais523> tusho: wrong channel and you misspelt it
16:50:29 <tusho> but it's not for ESO ais523
16:50:33 <ais523> anyway, enabling JavaScript seems to help...
16:50:36 <ais523> tusho: what is it for?
16:50:42 <ais523> are you mirroring Esolang, for instance?
16:50:44 <deveah> I see tusho was the most easy to influence here
16:50:52 <tusho> ais523: a game of nomic I started on the xkcd forums; someone asked me to set up a wiki for it
16:51:27 * pikhq bows before Greogr
16:51:29 <tusho> ais523: This entails setting up postgresql.
16:51:39 <ais523> tusho: because you hate MySQL, presumably
16:51:53 <ais523> but it works on both, so there's no problem
16:51:55 <tusho> ais523: PostgreSQL has features such as 'maintains integrity'
16:51:58 <tusho> Suprising, I know.
16:52:04 <ais523> tusho: well, so does MySQL-InnoDB
16:52:09 <ais523> which is what Wikimedia uses
16:52:12 <tusho> ais523: No, sorry. :3
16:52:19 <tusho> But not really. Also it lacks like half of SQL.
16:52:32 <ais523> MySQL has features such as "doesn't need to rebuild the database just because the engine ran out of internal sequence numbers"
16:52:39 <ais523> but despite that, I like both of them
16:52:49 <tusho> ais523: are you talking about a postgresql from 1993 or something.
16:53:05 <ais523> tusho: I'm just repeating flames, I don't know much about it really
16:53:26 <oklopol> deveah: sounds like it would work, but you're cheating :)
16:53:42 <oklopol> deveah: in case my almost-disconnect prevented this from getting through: sounds like it would work, but you're cheating :)
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16:55:12 <tusho> ais523: hm, that's odd
16:55:15 <tusho> probably a missing syscall
16:55:21 <deveah> oklopol - i'm the cheater type - if the game i'm playing has no cheats, i take a debugger and hack it
16:55:41 <tusho> Translation into english:
16:55:49 <tusho> <deveah> I suck at games, so I cheat.
16:56:06 <tusho> Works in nomic I guess
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16:56:14 <deveah> oklopol - i'm the cheater type - if the game i'm playing has no cheats, i take a debugger and hack it
16:56:25 <ais523> tusho: actually, I both like playing games honestly, and trying to mess with them to see what I can do
16:56:37 <ais523> I went and programmed stone-paper-scissors in Age of Mythology once
16:56:42 <tusho> ais523: as do I; but he said he just plays cheats
16:56:44 <ais523> and noughts and crosses in Neverwinter Nights
16:57:07 * ais523 tries to program noughts-and-crosses in just about everything
16:57:09 <tusho> I bet you could embed just about anything in Go
16:57:11 <ais523> to determine whether it's possible
16:57:18 <tusho> ais523: Program it in Go.
16:57:33 <ais523> actually, I was wondering if it would be possible to create a TC Sudoku-based esolang
16:57:38 <deveah> nonono, in NOT A PROGRAM
16:57:44 <ais523> you'd need to have some way to extend the board
16:57:48 <oklopol> deveah: just saying it's not a very pure oisc, but yeah, cheating is good
16:58:38 <deveah> it's kinda inspired by oisc
16:59:07 <deveah> XMISC - eXtended MonoInstruction Computer\
17:00:15 <Slereah_> How can you extend one instruction?
17:00:19 <deveah> i copied from OISC, added X and changed O to M...
17:01:16 <deveah> Slereah_: it's basically a single instruction, and I added more things to it
17:01:29 <deveah> did i spell 'basically' correct?
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17:04:08 <tusho> augur: ELF is the linux executable format
17:04:18 <tusho> literally, that is /usr/bin/dc, converted to an array
17:04:22 <oklopol> EXTENDED MONoinSTruction computER
17:05:07 <tusho> you should totally monsterify the winning rule next
17:05:09 <tusho> so that we can win by monster
17:05:20 <ais523> tusho: I have to monsterify rules at random
17:05:32 <deveah> anyone wanna play Scorched Earth?
17:05:33 <tusho> ais523: you can PRETEND
17:05:39 <oklopol> i was thinking a programming game where you program the rules a bot uses to mov
17:06:13 <oklopol> somewhat non deterministic levels, so you can't just time all moves exactly
17:06:45 <tusho> I like scorched earth.
17:06:48 <tusho> I've played the original
17:07:22 <tusho> lol@register doesn't work
17:08:09 <sekhmet> scorched3d is where it's at
17:08:29 <deveah> c'mon, before the login timeout
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17:09:07 <deveah> oklofok, http://scorch2000.com ?
17:09:16 <tusho> deveah: just go damnit
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17:11:39 <ais523> connection trouble again
17:19:50 <deveah> tusho suicided 2 times
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17:21:51 <tusho> ais523: BTW, I have lots of ideas for feathejs
17:21:57 <ais523> FF3 Download Day starts at 6PM, by the way
17:22:05 <ais523> I may download it just to help them set the record
17:22:13 <ais523> and put a copy on my USB stick
17:22:30 <deveah> i know what firefox is
17:22:32 <ais523> they're trying to set a record for downloads
17:22:45 <deveah> Vulpe-Inflacarata in Romanian
17:22:46 <ais523> and I like record-breaking attempts
17:22:57 <ais523> and also the silliness of asking people to DDOS you
17:22:58 <tusho> Vulpe-Inflacarata? That's a long name.
17:23:21 <deveah> well it's = to Fox on Fire, which is close to Firefox
17:23:30 <tusho> deveah: It's called Firefox everywhere.
17:23:39 <tusho> Also, Firefox is a species.
17:23:42 <tusho> Specifically, the red panda.
17:26:20 <pikhq> They're not trying to break a record, though. . .
17:26:38 <pikhq> The record they set today will be the bar everyone else must try to break.
17:27:11 <ais523> pikhq: I'm not sure I can think of any software that would have a chance of breaking it in the near future
17:27:25 <ais523> most applications that are more popular than Firefox can't be downloaded freely
17:27:39 <ais523> probably OO.o has the best chance other than Firefox
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18:00:52 <ais523> heh, unsurprisingly, spreadfirefox.com is down
18:01:16 <pikhq> Holy crap. A few *seconds*?
18:02:12 <ais523> pikhq: I assumed that as they were asking people to DDOS their servers, they would have been able to handle it
18:03:31 <ais523> that's the first time I've got a connection interrupted warning, anyway
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18:14:34 <augur> omg im turning into oklopol
18:14:39 <ais523> and sorry for my connection troubles...
18:14:47 <augur> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:15:33 <ais523> augur: wireless connection to a dodgy router
18:15:37 <ais523> which I don't have control over
18:17:04 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:19:36 * oerjan wonders what those :: characters are about
18:19:45 <augur> ::rapes oklopols dead body::
18:19:54 <ais523> oerjan: I think they're making words into emoticons
18:19:57 <ais523> or actions, in this case
18:20:02 <augur> yeah, its roughly like that
18:20:27 <oerjan> what's wrong with * now? :/
18:20:35 <augur> nothing, it's just two different styles
18:20:40 <oklopol> don't ask me, i just copy.
18:20:45 <augur> i use :: for actions, * for sounds.
18:21:03 <deveah> or "<- does something"
18:21:26 <augur> i only use <- to actually point to my name
18:21:36 <augur> so like if someone asked "does anyone know ...?"
18:21:57 <augur> "whats your email address?" "<--- @ yahoo.com"
18:22:47 <augur> tho i'll use -> to mean "go to" or something
18:23:04 <augur> e.g. "you -> google" to mean "google it" or something
18:25:27 <pikhq> http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.0/linux-i686/en-US/firefox-3.0.tar.bz2
18:29:39 <augur> why do you link us directly to this?
18:30:09 <pikhq> Because the various sites linking to that are down.
18:30:22 <pikhq> As in, "went down the instant Firefox 3 came out".
18:30:23 <augur> well its crap on mac
18:30:34 <deveah> there's a minikitten in front of the block
18:30:53 <augur> it doesnt use native UI elements, it substitutes fake native ones
18:30:56 <augur> which looks ridiculous
18:31:06 <augur> and breaks the aesthetics
18:31:14 <pikhq> Firefox 3 uses native UI elements. . .
18:32:05 <pikhq> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2008/05/14/firefox-3-themes/
18:32:17 <augur> it does no such thing on mac.
18:32:52 <pikhq> Firefox 2 sure didn't.
18:33:09 <ais523> pikhq: link to the Windows version?
18:33:12 <ais523> although I'm on Linux, I think having the Windows version could be handy
18:33:14 <ais523> I'll get FF3 itself via the repos later
18:33:36 <pikhq> augur: http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2008/05/14/firefox-3-themes/ Read that and tell me again?
18:34:00 <augur> they are not using native UI elements in their webpages, nor universally in their app UI.
18:34:28 <augur> http://www.sanneblad.se/johan/?p=180
18:35:03 <ais523> augur: they use native UI elements when there was one that did what they wanted
18:35:09 <ais523> so they use gtk-stuff in Linux
18:35:22 <ais523> augur: only for some of the elements
18:35:26 <augur> explain this: http://www.sanneblad.se/johan/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/listbox-firefox.png
18:35:37 <ais523> for the other ones, and on other platforms, they got some graphic designers to design UI elements that looked native
18:35:45 <augur> the explanation for that is they reinvented the wheel for no reason.
18:36:31 <pikhq> I want to know what build of Firefox 3 that was.
18:36:46 <pikhq> And who the fuck missed that if that's in Firefox 3.0.
18:37:10 <augur> dude, mozilla recreates UI elements for no reason, and always has
18:37:21 <augur> they're absolutely retarded.
18:37:23 <lament> actually they probably do have a reason.
18:37:41 <lament> it probably has something to do with ease of portability
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18:37:43 <augur> drop down menus are fucking special, there's no reason to recreate them.
18:37:49 <augur> ease or portability?
18:37:57 <lament> drop down menus are subtly different on all platforms.
18:38:05 <augur> you mean the portability of having to completely recode your UI elements for THREE DIFFERENT OSes?
18:38:16 <lament> yes, it's probably better than using native elements
18:38:26 <lament> which would be even _more_ of a pain
18:38:34 <augur> you're creating three completely different fucking browsers as it is
18:38:42 <lament> have you worked with UI much?
18:39:10 <lament> they're not three different browsers, they're the same browser with three different looks
18:39:16 <lament> as opposed to three actually different browsers
18:39:22 <lament> which you would get if you used native elements
18:39:22 <augur> lament, they run on three very different operating systems
18:39:46 <lament> not a reason not to try to keep them as close to each other as possible
18:39:52 <augur> so unless they found some magic way to run windows code on mac and linux, or the reverse, they're different browsers.
18:40:31 <pikhq> They have the exact same source code.
18:41:07 <augur> so the whole thing is written in C/++ with some magic ground up way of building UI elements
18:41:09 <augur> which is retarded.
18:42:26 <pikhq> Which is better than being written in C/C++ with some magic ground up way of drawing UI elements using the native GUI toolkit while using the same functions to actually get each widget. . .
18:42:38 <pikhq> (have you ever done cross-platform coding?)
18:43:07 <augur> ofcourse its better than doing that, which is why no sane person would do it that way
18:43:20 <pikhq> So, what the hell *do* you suggest?
18:43:45 <augur> you'd abstract out the core features that you want to be truly identical across the platforms, namely the JS engine, the HTML engine, etc. and THAT would be the same
18:43:56 <augur> and everything else would be build out of native items like you'd expect.
18:44:07 <pikhq> And each GUI would be a completely different code base?
18:44:19 <lament> that sounds much harder and much more painful to maintain than the way it's currently done
18:44:25 <pikhq> In other words, you suggest coding in triplicate.
18:44:25 <augur> no, they wouldnt produce a code base for the GUI at all
18:44:34 <augur> no, no coding "in triplicate"
18:44:48 <pikhq> Ah. So, you'd have them only produce a code base for Gecko?!?
18:44:55 <pikhq> WTF is wrong with you?
18:45:14 <augur> whatever, pikhq. it's clear you have no idea how much less work it would actually involve.
18:45:46 <pikhq> Ask the Camino project how well they're doing.
18:45:49 <augur> open up the code for some UI elements some time. its not a few lines of code, its hundreds of lines of code for each UI element.
18:45:51 <pikhq> And imagine two more such projects.
18:46:19 <augur> i cant speak for the poor management that they have doing this thing cross platform.
18:46:38 <pikhq> Cross-platform coding is poor management?!?
18:46:41 <oklopol> wish i cared the least bit so i had something to say!
18:46:46 <augur> thats not what i said pikhq
18:47:17 <augur> good job, pikhq. now were done, since you can't communicate.
18:47:17 <pikhq> I'll grant that at this point, it's fairly stupid to be drawing their own UI elements, though. . .
18:47:29 <augur> heh. and so now you agree with me completely?
18:47:31 <pikhq> Honestly, everything should just be rendering via Qt 4 now.
18:47:40 <augur> you're ridiculous.
18:48:07 <lament> this is pretty much universal
18:48:16 <lament> very very rarely does this not hold
18:48:16 * pikhq just wants to see Qt/Gtk.
18:48:30 <ais523> pikhq: what, both merged together
18:48:44 <augur> portability is fine when you don't destroy the usability of the application
18:48:48 <pikhq> ais523: No, Qt rendering via Gtk.
18:49:05 <augur> lament, are you a fan of Java?
18:49:06 <pikhq> Just like Qt/OS X renders via Cocoa, and Qt/Windows renders via Win32.
18:49:13 <lament> firefox is unusable? The most successful open source project on the desktop? hello?
18:49:17 <augur> OS X does not render via Cocoa.
18:49:26 <pikhq> augur: Qt on OS X does.
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18:49:41 <lament> augur: I'm not a fan of Java, but not because of its portability.
18:49:56 <lament> It's just a sucky language
18:50:09 <lament> I'm a fan of Python, though :)
18:50:31 <augur> pikhq: when you say render via Cocoa, what do you mean?
18:50:43 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there's a Qt/Pi
18:50:52 <pikhq> It uses Cocoa to draw its widgets.
18:51:13 <augur> thats not quite "rendering"
18:51:26 <pikhq> Sorry; I used the wrong term.
18:51:40 <augur> i thought you meant to render the video.
18:51:52 <pikhq> Which is kinda stupid.
18:52:58 <augur> anyway, i cant really understand why they'd need to build their own UI elements. the effort is just too great, it's incomprehensible.
18:53:15 <pikhq> Cocoa doesn't render things; it draws stuff using Quartz.
18:53:25 <augur> i know, thats why i was confused by what you were saying :)
18:55:47 <pikhq> Anyways, yeah; Firefox 3 really ought to use either Qt or wxWidgets to draw native widgets, IMO. . .
18:57:00 <augur> it should just use XUL to better form.
18:57:43 <augur> it would be relatively simple to build a layout builder that takes XUL and builds a properly laid out UI from that
18:58:04 <augur> max a hundred lines of code to do that on a mac.
18:58:14 <augur> which is less code than they'd need to build a drop down menu.
18:58:29 <augur> and they'd get the whole UI out of it.
18:58:58 <augur> i think they make a good render engine and a good JS engine, but their painfully slow and stupid in some regards.
18:59:17 <augur> brendan eich also works for them, and he's a moron.
18:59:23 <pikhq> Which is great and all, except that XUL is designed to really be interpreted, rather than compiled. . .
18:59:37 <augur> which is irrelevant, since their whole UI is XUL.
18:59:50 <augur> in terms of layout.
19:00:06 <pikhq> XUL is very, very heavily linked with Javascript.
19:00:33 <augur> anyway, lets talk about esolangs
19:00:40 <augur> lets not talk about firefox
19:00:56 <augur> oklopol, we need to formalize the grammar for our language
19:01:49 <oklopol> i have to code my game today
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19:04:34 <tusho> i don't think augur has actually programmed a cross-platform app
19:04:45 <tusho> he seems to like a lot of 'WEB2.0 JAVASCRIPT ZOMGZ', though
19:04:45 <augur> i dont think tusho's hit puberty.
19:04:55 <ais523> I've programmed cross-platform apps
19:04:58 <ais523> by mistake, in some cases
19:05:10 <ais523> as in, I aimed for one platform but it worked on all the others too
19:05:14 <ais523> with only minor tweaks
19:06:20 <lament> i think the reason it happened is because you weren't trying to use native widgets everywhere
19:06:49 <ais523> lament: yes, it's either been a webapp or a CLI program in each case
19:07:20 <ais523> although in some cases when I've deliberately tried to write a portable program I've used Allegro for graphics rendering
19:07:27 <ais523> which is cross-platform nowadays
19:07:34 <ais523> at least, I've got it to work on both Linux and Windows
19:08:46 <lament> that's not cross-platform :)
19:09:08 <ais523> lament: it works on other platforms too, in theory
19:09:13 <ais523> but I've never had a chance to test
19:09:28 <ais523> but as the Linux version uses X11, it should work fine on a Mac and on BSD
19:09:42 <tusho> x11 is a seperate app on macs
19:09:53 <tusho> a sure-fire way to anger mac users, too, since it's not very nice to use
19:10:00 <lament> yeah, it's not very nice at all
19:10:03 <ais523> so it's not cross-platform in the works natively sense
19:10:24 <lament> first you have to start it up, which takes forever
19:10:25 <ais523> but then, I actually generated DOS and Linux versions
19:10:30 <ais523> so it isn't nice to use on Windows either
19:10:37 <augur> X11 on a mac is painful :(
19:10:37 <lament> and then, you have X-style ugly windows mingling together with pretty OS X windows
19:10:40 <ais523> because you have to go via NTVDM
19:10:51 <ais523> which is not only painful, but also less reliable than X11 on a mac is
19:10:53 <lament> with a menu in the window instead of at the top of the screen
19:13:22 <augur> copy and paste doesnt work between X11 and the normal system
19:13:29 <augur> which kind of sucks
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19:14:41 <augur> standard UI element behavior is different
19:15:06 <lament> i don't think X11 sucks on OS X
19:15:09 <lament> i think X11 sucks in general
19:15:19 <lament> it's just that on linux there actually isn't a better alternative
19:15:26 <lament> which is a horrible shame
19:15:33 <lament> unless you count KDE and such
19:15:40 <pikhq> lament: X11 on Linux sucks less than everywhere else.
19:15:40 <augur> its called GNUStep :)
19:15:43 <lament> ('such' being 'gnome')
19:15:49 <pikhq> augur: GNUstep runs on X11.
19:16:08 <augur> ugh. those crazy linuxers.
19:16:13 <augur> cant even port openstep correctly
19:16:25 <pikhq> There's nothing better than X11 available.
19:16:40 <pikhq> And won't be until X.org gets around to doing X12.
19:16:43 <lament> it's one of the big problems with linux as far as i'm concerned
19:16:52 <lament> the lack of a sane graphical environment
19:17:17 <lament> (where 'sane' involves a lot of centralized control and standardization)
19:17:17 <pikhq> It's actually getting better. . .
19:17:31 <pikhq> Which is amazing, really. . .
19:17:40 <lament> well, can't really get any worse :)
19:18:49 <pikhq> Well, actually, it can.
19:21:02 <pikhq> Although that would inspire someone to create the world's greatest graphical environment. . .
19:21:24 <lament> destroying X would be nice :)
19:22:39 <pikhq> Probably end up using something entirely OpenGL based.
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19:23:34 <pikhq> tusho: X12 would be a complete redesign of the X protocol.
19:24:01 <pikhq> (will be, rather; IIRC, that's currently in the planning stages)
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19:24:25 <lament> you absolutely must have standardized widgets
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19:24:37 <lament> X11 is great but it solves the wrong problem
19:25:00 <pikhq> By that token, only OS X has reached sanity.
19:25:06 <pikhq> (which is obviously true. ;p)
19:25:45 <lament> X11 is about relaying graphics over networks and managing multiple processes displaying on one buffer
19:25:46 <pikhq> Well, at least having two sets of widgets is a hell of a lot saner than what X11 used to deal with.
19:25:56 <tusho> OS X hasn't _quite_ reached insanity.
19:26:05 <pikhq> Per-application widget sets = *shudder*
19:26:05 <tusho> They did, but then Apple got a sort of lets-make-our-own-widgets fetish.
19:26:10 <tusho> Dunno if it's any better in Leopard, probably is.
19:26:19 <tusho> Still; a lot better than linux.
19:26:39 <pikhq> tusho: Linux at least now offers only GTK versus Qt.
19:27:00 <pikhq> Instead of its former GTK versus Qt versus Motif versus Tk versus custom widgets.
19:27:02 <tusho> pikhq: There's tons of apps using other widget sets.
19:27:07 <tusho> Tk is very popular for python people, for instance.
19:27:19 <pikhq> tusho: And they should die.
19:27:49 <pikhq> (Tk really, really badly needs to just draw via GTK or Qt. . .)
19:28:05 <tusho> and then hopefully gtk will die
19:28:08 <pikhq> At least it doesn't look like freaking Motif any more.
19:28:10 <tusho> since qt works on other platforms natively
19:28:21 <tusho> of course qt has a fucked license
19:29:00 <pikhq> What's so fucked about it?
19:29:26 * Hiato realises it's now officially download day
19:29:43 <tusho> pikhq: commercial use
19:29:47 <tusho> they require you to use a seperate license
19:29:57 <tusho> pikhq: plus, it's under the gpl anyway
19:30:05 <tusho> and that SUCKS for libraries
19:30:14 <tusho> unless you have a borg-esque mentality of who should use what license
19:30:16 <tusho> which GPL users tend to...
19:30:19 <pikhq> Though that's not for commercial use, but rather for non-free use.
19:30:27 <tusho> I'd be happy if a license said:
19:30:34 <tusho> instead of "YOU MUST MAKE DERIVATIVES UNDER THE GPL"
19:30:39 <pikhq> (you can have commercial free software and non-commercial non-free software, after all)
19:30:42 <tusho> it said "YOU MUST MAKE DERIVATIVES IN A FSF APPROVED LICENSE"
19:30:48 <tusho> though I guess that offers a path to non-free
19:30:50 <ais523> tusho: well, Stallman recommends people licence libraries under GPL specifically to stop non-GPL code using them, but I know you disagree with them on that
19:30:51 <tusho> ->mit/bsd->non-free
19:31:02 <tusho> ais523: nobody sane listens to him on that at least.
19:31:15 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, that only applies to libraries which do something unique.
19:31:22 <pikhq> (such as GNU readline)
19:31:47 <pikhq> For a library that does something common, he recommends the LGPL.
19:32:05 <ais523> I accept the correction
19:32:11 <ais523> but is readline really unique?
19:32:17 <pikhq> It was at the time.
19:32:19 <ais523> DOSkey does much the same thing, after all
19:32:30 <ais523> which shows that Microsoft, at least, are capable of reimplementing it
19:32:40 <ais523> except they didn't release that as a library
19:32:43 <ais523> so nobody else can use it
19:36:05 <tusho> augur: $ git clone http://code.eso-std.org/feathejs.git
19:36:07 <tusho> and open index.html
19:36:16 * tusho watches augur squeam over jQuery use
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19:50:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I just want to say, this piet program is brilliant: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/piet_pi_big.png
19:50:44 <tusho> ais523: creator of piet's
19:50:48 <tusho> david morgan-marr, I believe
19:50:54 <tusho> also creator of Irregular Webcomic!
19:51:00 <ais523> it works the same way as that IOCCC-winning pi program
19:51:03 <ais523> which mesaured its own area
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20:32:52 <augur> what am i supposed to look at now tusho?
20:33:35 <tusho> narcissus uses loads of firefoxy extensions
20:33:40 <tusho> which kinda sucks, but meh
20:33:46 <ais523> tusho: you didn't give em a link
20:34:00 <augur> oh, git, yes i see
20:34:17 <augur> i dont use git and im not going to waste my time getting it so i can look at a page i dont care about :P
20:34:38 <tusho> augur uses his awesome javascript vcs he coded IN JAVASCRIPT
20:34:42 <tusho> it doesn't use jquery
20:35:01 <augur> so tusho, when are you going to hit puberty and, you know, grow up
20:35:24 <lament> augur can't wait for tusho to hit puberty
20:35:24 <tusho> augur: sheesh, take a joke
20:35:40 <augur> jokes are supposed to be funny, not display your stupidity.
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20:36:03 <tusho> augur: well then I guess I should have said something like lament
20:40:23 <augur> oh thats weird looking but.. interesting
20:40:32 <tusho> augur: haha, what is
20:40:42 <tusho> it parses the JS you give it
20:40:45 <augur> void AddOne (int x)
20:40:58 <tusho> augur: odd procedure..
20:41:01 <tusho> it doesn't return anything
20:41:04 <tusho> just over-writes a global
20:41:09 <augur> it also doesnt work
20:41:23 <augur> because x isnt a global :)
20:41:39 <pikhq> That odd use of braces makes me half-think it's Plof.
20:41:57 <augur> its just C, it's just an odd use of braces.
20:42:10 <pikhq> {x = x+1;} is perfectly valid Plof, though kinda pointless.
20:42:47 <augur> i've never seen someone write a one like function like that before
20:43:05 <tusho> I should write plof->jf
20:43:12 <augur> which makes me want to make a language where you have to wrap each line of body in {}
20:43:13 <pikhq> tusho: Gregor already did.
20:43:21 <pikhq> It's called jsplof.
20:43:22 <tusho> pikhq: does it let you interface with js?
20:43:33 <pikhq> I think so; I never played with that much.
20:43:44 <pikhq> I tended to use dplof and cplof.
20:44:03 <pikhq> It's a language by Gregor.
20:44:13 <augur> yeah i got that :P
20:44:16 <pikhq> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.pdf
20:44:33 <tusho> pikhq: that would have been better if plof3.pdf was actually a plof interpreter
20:44:43 <tusho> i mean, that actually ran when you open the pdf
20:44:50 <pikhq> Jeeze, that spec is incomplete. . .
20:45:16 <pikhq> And it doesn't give any decent examples of the Plof User Language.
20:46:11 * pikhq needs to hop back on the Plof bandwagon
20:46:38 <GregorR> tusho: You could implement signals in jsmips! :P
20:46:53 <GregorR> pikhq: That's because the Plof User Language is incomplete :P
20:46:54 <tusho> GregorR: get forking working
20:46:58 <tusho> echo `echo a` fails in sh
20:47:08 <ais523> tusho: heh, I tried that exact command too
20:47:13 <augur> ive decided on a new fursona
20:47:15 <GregorR> tusho: I already did get forking working, that fails because of waitpid which in turn fails because it has no signals.
20:47:15 <ais523> but I think it fails because it can't create a pipe
20:47:17 <augur> well, fake fursona
20:47:18 <tusho> ais523: I got it from you
20:47:22 <augur> but ive decided on a new fursona
20:47:34 <tusho> augur: how wonderful...
20:48:04 <augur> ive decided that my fursona is...
20:48:09 <augur> an uncollapsed probability wave
20:48:31 <augur> agh!!! ::collapses::
20:48:36 <pikhq> augur: Allow me to just give you the coolest feature of Plof: its syntax is defined in Plof.
20:48:51 <ais523> pikhq: well, C-INTERCAL's syntax is defined only in C-INTERCAL
20:48:59 <pikhq> http://www.codu.org/cgi-bin/ploftrac.cgi/browser/core/pul/pul.plof
20:49:03 <GregorR> My fursona (whatever-tf that is) will be Anne Uncollapsed Probability Wave
20:49:03 <augur> you can define many languages in themselves :P
20:49:08 <ais523> the distribution ships with a precompiled C-INTERCAL program just so you can start it off
20:49:26 <augur> gregor: are you from upstate new york?
20:49:36 <tusho> augur: no, not just defined in itself
20:49:40 <tusho> the actual plof you run is defined in itself
20:49:41 <pikhq> augur: The syntax is defined at runtime.
20:49:49 * tusho watches RodgerTheGreat come and say "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! JUST LIKE FEATHER!"
20:49:58 <augur> hm. gregor, why did you say "anne"?
20:50:20 <pikhq> pul.plof is actually executed before your Plof program, in order to define the Plof syntax.
20:50:37 <augur> how do you define plof syntax after running plof? i dont see how this is possible.
20:50:55 <GregorR> augur: A very minimalistic syntax is defined in bytecode.
20:50:57 <augur> oh well thats cheating isnt it
20:51:02 <GregorR> augur: Then the syntax builds upon itself.
20:51:27 <GregorR> augur: Because Anne is a name and "fursona" sounds like "persona", so I was making a "persona" based on "an uncollapsed probability wave" :P
20:51:33 <augur> so really plof is embedded in the bytecode
20:51:46 <ais523> well, there's a Perl version of CLC-INTERCAL's syntax, but it was compiled from CLC-INTERCAL
20:51:55 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: heh
20:52:06 <ais523> bootstrapping an /interpreter/ from itself seems impossible without a compiler or an interpreter written in a different lang somewhere along the line
20:52:11 <augur> gregor: oh i see. well, i figured upstate new york because upstates pronounce "an" like "anne".
20:52:12 <ais523> even machine code is interpreted by the hardware
20:52:30 <tusho> unless it's feather
20:52:31 <augur> infact, upstaters pronounce "anne" and "ian" the same.
20:53:03 <RodgerTheGreat> oh yes, I seem to recall being in a discussion about something similar earlier on
20:54:03 <RodgerTheGreat> and I still think that, outside extreme edge-cases and tricky bullshit it's a completely ridiculous concept to actually implement
20:54:24 <tusho> #esoteric is NOTHING to do with extreme edge-cases and tricky bullshit.
20:54:26 <augur> tusho, have i told you about the reactive programming language oklopol and i are designing?
20:54:47 <augur> can i get your opinion on what the cfg should be for it?
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20:58:17 <ais523> augur: you didn't tell me, can you explain?
20:58:31 <augur> er.. the language?
20:59:35 <augur> well, its sort of the reverse of functional programming. where in functional languages you define functions defined in terms of other functions, etc, and then get the value of one function by calling the inner functions and doing stuff with their return values
21:00:31 <augur> with a reactive language you instead set up reactions.
21:00:42 <augur> so consider what happens if you have some function f() = g() + h()
21:01:19 <augur> if g() is not a pure function, when will you see the changes in the values of g()? only when you call it.
21:01:34 <augur> so if g() is time dependent, you only see its value when you call g(), or in this case f().
21:02:05 <augur> but with a reactive language, the moment g's value changes, this change cascades down through all the things defined in terms of it
21:02:16 <augur> so we might instead say something like, g+h -> f
21:02:23 <ais523> well, in fact, exactly like VHDL
21:02:24 <augur> so that if you later say g = 5
21:02:32 <augur> f is automatically different now
21:02:37 <GregorR> Well, VHDL is reactive by the nature of the problem it's solving :P
21:02:55 <augur> this doesnt make any real difference unless you're doing IO stuff, really
21:02:56 <ais523> VHDL is more verbose than COBOL, it seems
21:03:02 <ais523> at least for short programs
21:03:13 <augur> because if you never output, then f can be lazy and it becomes functional
21:03:14 <ais523> and it uses reactivity to order the statements, which is interesting
21:03:30 <augur> but for instance, consider the task of making some box follow the mouse on the screen
21:03:46 <ais523> yes, reactive langs would be good at that
21:03:52 <ais523> VHDL would be if it had a GUI
21:03:56 <augur> how would you do this functionally? or imperatively? you'd need to constantly poll the mouse and send that to some handler or whatever
21:04:11 <tusho> ais523: there are reactive haskell gui libraries
21:04:16 <tusho> they're pretty common
21:04:20 <augur> but with the language okl and i are designing, it would be just:
21:04:27 <augur> mouse.(x,y) -> box.(x,y)
21:04:27 <tusho> augur: see: Fudgets
21:04:36 <augur> that single statement is all you'd need.
21:04:58 <augur> well really its two statements in compressed form but close enough ;)
21:05:52 <augur> oh, and we have "functions" sort of
21:06:09 <augur> but really, functions are just temporarily constructed reactions
21:06:39 <augur> we also have time delays
21:07:02 <augur> so for instance if you wanted the box to follow the mouse 100 milliseconds behind the mouse
21:07:12 <augur> delay 100 mouse.(x,y) -> box.(x,y)
21:07:27 <ais523> augur: VHDL does that too
21:07:51 <ais523> mouse[x] <- mouse[y] after 100000ns
21:08:32 <augur> oh, and ive decided on the ability for variables to hold multiple values
21:08:41 <augur> not collections of values, but rather multiple values simultaneously
21:08:56 <oklopol> ais523: that's one weird piece of code you have there
21:09:26 <augur> come to #reactance
21:09:33 <augur> i want to go over the grammar real quick
21:09:45 <ais523> oklopol: that's genuine VHDL, almost
21:09:51 <ais523> except that I invented syntax for structures
21:10:02 <tusho> augur: your language doesn't need a channel
21:10:08 <tusho> (first law of #esoteric; learned it the hard way)
21:10:10 <ais523> mouse_x <- mouse_y after 100000ns would be real VHDL
21:10:25 <augur> tusho: i dont care.
21:10:27 <ais523> wait, that would be weird
21:10:35 <ais523> imagine moving the mouse with that code...
21:12:18 <tusho> ais523: diagonal mouse movement FTW
21:12:28 <ais523> tusho: it's not even that
21:12:37 <tusho> well yeah cause of the delay
21:16:21 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
21:16:50 -!- tusho has joined.
21:23:39 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:33:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:33:49 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:34:01 <tusho> you have to go back to Z
21:34:20 <Hiato> arg, do I get to roll again?
21:38:06 <Hiato> that's a tough one..... I'll go with: y
21:40:41 <Hiato> what about taking it backwards, FU?
21:40:58 <Hiato> that's 20 points baby
21:41:01 <oerjan> it's not a badge, it's a badger
21:41:13 <oklopol> okay, you ppl are good at this
21:41:15 <Hiato> but a combo bonus for me and oerjan cause his name starts with an o
21:41:21 <Hiato> and doesn't have a k in it
21:42:02 <oerjan> ok let's take an easier opening: W
21:42:48 <Hiato> oooh, you've got me there... man, pass, oklopol?
21:43:41 * Hiato is impressed with the use of uppercase letters *frantically pages through the rulebook only to discover it doesn't exist after carefully examining the index*
21:44:09 <ais523> are you playing Calvinball?
21:44:19 <oklopol> yeah, i think the rulebook should be rewritten to have, you know, existance
21:44:20 <oerjan> sheesh, only the opening letter is upper case, as you can see above
21:44:28 <Hiato> it's CalvinAlphaBall
21:44:43 -!- pikhq has left (?).
21:45:02 <ais523> yes, I know Hiato tried that earlier
21:45:15 <Hiato> oklopl, an advisable feature, perhaps. Later revisions then
21:46:01 <oerjan> oklopol: but existence would detract from its most important property, rewritability
21:46:23 <Hiato> so which letter would that be then, oerjan?
21:47:02 <Hiato> fine, you know what. Desperate times and measure and idioms: z
21:47:04 <oerjan> he can't? and here i had such a nice followup
21:47:27 <Hiato> that's right oerjan, clearly in violation of Rule:Rule
21:47:31 <ais523> don't go putting a z after r
21:47:36 <ais523> that was refuted years ago
21:47:51 <Hiato> when? I must have been sick that day...
21:48:19 <oerjan> that's a violation of the p-nand-q rule
21:48:45 <Hiato> http://p-nand-q.com for the h
21:49:22 * Hiato is puzzled as to how oklopol keeps winning --- hax
21:49:52 <Hiato> AHAHAHAHA, oerjan, my dear fellow, look what I have: d
21:50:04 <ais523> Hiato: ah, that's good
21:50:10 <Hiato> for Domination, Damnation, Darn It No More Words and such
21:50:17 <ais523> somehow I think oklopol will have trouble avoiding playing y next turn
21:50:22 <ais523> especially as I now play a
21:50:32 <Hiato> I tend to agree, but he could opt for a q
21:50:41 <ais523> I'd like to see him try
21:50:46 <Hiato> all eyes on oklopol
21:51:16 <oerjan> now THAT was a surprise move
21:51:20 <ais523> well, then, d and I win
21:51:26 <Hiato> heh, shame... poor fellow, did not see my z coming
21:51:28 <ais523> oerjan: clearly not, he let me win
21:51:33 <oklopol> i knew ais523 would see right through it
21:51:44 <Hiato> ais523, you cannot ignore it
21:51:49 <oklopol> well, actually, for a moment i thought you might not see it
21:51:55 <ais523> Hiato: yes, I know you get a big advantage in the next game
21:51:57 <ais523> but I wanted to win one
21:52:37 <Hiato> listen, I think that what oklopol did was... amazing, don't get me wrong, but perhaps he took ais523's arsenal of t's for granted there
21:53:38 <oklopol> that may just have happened
21:53:48 <oklopol> i like to be a bit more deep than you'd think at the first glance
21:54:05 <Hiato> so now in terms of balancing, is it +100 to asi523 for having numbers whose product are no greater then the length of a bunch of bananas if frequently played in place of oerjan's g
21:55:51 <ais523> Hiato: no, only +80k, it's a Tarnished Chain
21:56:25 <Hiato> oh, yeah, that rulebook is getting mighty heavy
21:57:41 <oklopol> well, don't forget Rule on Page, technically i still have the lead with less than 70 points.
21:58:10 <Hiato> oh my, asi523.... dare I say it, he's right according to Rule:Rule on Page:Number... oh dear
21:58:34 <ais523> Hiato: well, -5 for getting my name wrong
21:58:42 <ais523> yes, I know that's an optional rule, but...
21:58:53 <oklopol> of course, but that's not important at this level.
21:58:59 <Hiato> yay, I win :) My clever ploy has worked. Thank you oklopol :P
21:59:10 <Hiato> or is it a draw with 5:3 to him?
21:59:11 <ais523> oklopol: yes, but it's the principle of it
21:59:12 <oklopol> shit, how did that happen :|
21:59:12 <tusho> (I had a Z left from before)
21:59:34 <Hiato> it's photoshopped!
21:59:36 <ais523> r and I bar tusho for 3 turns
21:59:41 <tusho> ais523: one second too late
22:00:00 <tusho> hmm, I have a nomicy idea
22:00:03 <Hiato> I institute: The one-two to closey rule!
22:00:07 <tusho> we start playing a game much like mornington crescent
22:00:13 <tusho> but each time we reference a rule we write it down
22:00:15 <tusho> and build up a real ruleset
22:00:44 <Hiato> .... we have a ..real ruleset here, it just doesn't.... am... exist
22:00:48 <tusho> #nomicton-crescent if anyone wants to try it
22:01:07 <oerjan> this is a meaning of the word "real" with which i was not previously familiar
22:01:30 <tusho> maybe I didnt' explain it properly
22:01:34 <tusho> do you want to restate it, ais523? :-P
22:02:14 <ais523> tusho: see Mornington Nomic
22:02:23 <ais523> they actually worked out a Mornington Crescent ruleset like that
22:02:36 <ais523> which was a fair and balanced and interesting game
22:02:55 <tusho> ais523: oh well. want to shamelessly copy it over IRC? Then join #nomicton-crescent :-P
22:02:59 * oerjan predicts the usual fun-serious-dead cycle
22:03:13 <tusho> oerjan: Canada went the other way
22:03:14 <Hiato> cycle being a word of note
22:03:30 <oklopol> fun - serious - ORGY - three dead in stabbing incident
22:03:31 <tusho> a bit of serious, tons of fun, dead.
22:03:32 <oerjan> tusho: Canada started out dead?
22:04:06 <lament> fun-serious-dead, that's exactly what happened to esoteric languages
22:04:28 <ais523> I still try to maintain C-INTERCAL
22:05:06 <ais523> and things like Feather are just fun
22:05:51 <tusho> lament: when was the last time you talked about esolangs in here? :P
22:06:19 <tusho> lament: were they dead when you first entered?
22:06:33 <ais523> well, I think we should talk about esolangs here more often
22:06:44 <ais523> there's one being designed in #reactance as I speak
22:06:54 <ais523> in a paradigm that I'd forgotten existed
22:07:04 <tusho> ais523: augur continually claims 'ITS NOT ESOTERIC!121212'
22:07:14 <tusho> which is why he doesn't like talking about it in #esoteric, too
22:07:25 <oklopol> tusho: yeah, but don't forget i'm constantly pointing him to that direction ;)
22:07:31 <oklopol> but yeah, shame he's like that
22:07:40 <tusho> people can't appreciate a good esolang!
22:07:46 <oklopol> languages shouldn't try to make sense
22:07:55 <tusho> reactive programming is pretty effing esoteric in itself
22:08:01 <ais523> tusho: VHDL is far from esoteric
22:08:08 <ais523> it's one of the longest-surviving langs around
22:08:11 <tusho> ais523: you sure about that?
22:08:18 <ais523> and is used by many serious companies
22:08:24 <tusho> vhdl is very esoteric, ais523
22:08:30 <ais523> that kind-of de-esotericises a language in most people's view
22:08:37 <ais523> just like Perl and Haskell can't be considered esoteric
22:08:53 <augur> its not that its NOT esoteric, its that im trying to prevent it from being esoteric
22:09:08 <tusho> a totally non-esoteric language does not exist
22:09:21 <Hiato> Hello, I must be going, sleep dawns another day (and just so everyone knows, my last move was a q)
22:09:24 <tusho> ais523: asm is pretty esoteric
22:09:28 <ais523> although allegedly that's more esoteric than other langs
22:09:43 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
22:09:46 <augur> tusho: because i want it to be somewhat usable :P
22:09:59 <augur> im all for reactive languages that are esoteric, but im not making this to be esoteric
22:10:00 <tusho> augur: Esoteric means not somewhat usable?
22:10:05 <tusho> augur doesn't know the definition of esolangs
22:10:06 <tusho> that makes another one
22:10:13 <ais523> there can be langs that are both esoteric and usable
22:10:20 <ais523> admittedly I can't think of any right now
22:10:25 <augur> i guess, but none that i've see :)
22:10:35 <ais523> Thutu's usable in wimpmode
22:10:52 <ais523> that is, when it's been extended to have arithmetic
22:10:55 <augur> anyway, the idea is that the language is supposed to be user friendly and somewhat intuitive
22:11:05 <tusho> lol@user friendly and somewhat intuitive
22:11:12 <tusho> way to dig yourself into the whole of "sucks" like that
22:11:39 <tusho> aiming for those as goals dooms your language to be terrible pretty much
22:12:04 <augur> really? cause i rather think ruby succeeds at those and is quite popular
22:12:19 <augur> but oh, thats right, tusho, you're full of shit. :P
22:12:26 <tusho> augur: matz didn't aim for those, actually
22:12:33 <tusho> it's not that reaching those goals makes your language suck
22:12:34 <tusho> it's aiming for them
22:12:47 <augur> actually matz did :)
22:12:49 <oklopol> tusho's just not that user-friendly, i'd hardly call him a shit-full-of-guy
22:12:57 <augur> but you'd only know that if you'd read up on ruby at all
22:12:58 <oklopol> especially as that is one retarded word.
22:13:00 <tusho> augur: wrong, he aimed specifically for something that _he_ liked
22:13:01 <augur> rather than talking out your ass.
22:13:07 <tusho> Principle of matz' least suprise.
22:13:19 <augur> something matz likes = user friendly
22:13:25 <augur> since his intended user base was Matz.
22:13:30 <tusho> augur: that was coincidental then
22:13:41 <tusho> it just so happens that what was unsuprising to him was unsuprising to everyone else
22:13:46 <tusho> but aiming for 'unsuprising in general' fails
22:14:06 <augur> you're completely unhelpful, yet again.
22:14:22 <tusho> i was offering constructive criticism
22:14:29 <tusho> but if i'm that unhelpful /ignore is over there
22:14:41 <augur> unhelpful != annoying.
22:15:34 <tusho> yeah, after all I'm only 12 right augur? :P
22:16:45 <oklopol> hey, it was me calling you both kids
22:17:30 <augur> tusho doesnt bother to actually read messages, oklopol, he just likes to construct fantasies in his head and then talk to them
22:17:45 <augur> kids have imaginary friends, why not imaginary irc pals?
22:18:13 <lament> just turn your imaginary friend 90% and he'll become real
22:18:27 <lament> (where's the degrees sign on the keyboard?)
22:18:37 <tusho> augur: you know if you didn't know my age you might actually have to think of a valid argument
22:18:46 <lament> is that degrees? What's with the line under the 0
22:19:00 <augur> if i didnt know your age i'd think you were 12.
22:19:04 <lament> ª is not the degrees sign, it's the masculine ordinal sign
22:19:05 <augur> or mentally retarded.
22:19:30 <lament> that symbol shouldn't be used in English at all
22:19:38 <tusho> augur: yeah, um, go fuck yourself.
22:19:46 <ais523> augur: please, the joke's getting old
22:19:54 <ais523> you're turning #esoteric into a flame channel, almost
22:20:00 <ais523> augur: well, if not a joke, a statement
22:20:04 <ais523> you've made your point once
22:20:13 <augur> sorry, do what now?
22:20:15 <ais523> repeating it endlessly seems to serve no purpose other than to annoy tusho
22:20:17 <augur> i didnt bring up tusho's age.
22:20:29 <ais523> well, I'll tell him not to either
22:21:05 <ais523> lament: that's not fair
22:21:16 <tusho> ais523: i found that funny, actually
22:21:19 <ais523> and it would have been funnier without the third line
22:21:20 <augur> wasnt there someone else who was 13 or something too?
22:21:29 <tusho> augur: yeah, deveah
22:21:29 <oklopol> there was a guy who was 10
22:21:49 <oerjan> i'm not even born yet...
22:21:54 <augur> when the fuck did kids start getting into esolangs?
22:21:54 <tusho> augur: he was a bit spammy
22:21:58 <tusho> for large values of a bit
22:22:04 <tusho> and, err, his ideas didn't make much sense
22:22:08 <tusho> last time he came in here he was alright though
22:22:39 <oklopol> well, for spam, try immibis
22:22:51 <augur> man, now we've got 12 year olds critiquing 10 year olds. tusho do you wear a suit and hang out at water coolers talking about 401ks?
22:22:54 <lament> oerjan: you're old enough to have a name with a letter than doesn't even exist anymore
22:22:57 <oklopol> i never got his age out of him, even though i had a lot of private chats with him
22:22:58 <augur> tusho you should, it'd be adorable.
22:23:19 <augur> oerjans name has a letter that doesnt exisT??
22:23:22 <oklopol> lament: how did you get so funny?
22:23:33 <tusho> augur: perhaps I should spell it out for you; referencing my age constantly is neither funny nor relevant and does not further your argument in any way
22:23:35 <ais523> well, my name also contains a letter that doesn't exist
22:23:41 <tusho> to refine it further, shut the hell up about my age.
22:23:42 <ais523> but because the letter doesn't exist, I can't tell you what it is
22:23:47 <ais523> or even write down my name or say it properly
22:23:57 <oerjan> lament: well i suppose if i had been greenlandic...
22:23:59 <lament> oklopol: I did a funny degree at university.
22:24:00 <ais523> thus I just call myself ais523
22:24:07 <oklopol> lament: where do they offer that?
22:24:34 <oklopol> augur: a bit of an inside joke, oerjan is norwegian
22:24:44 <oklopol> lament: you see?!?? i'm even ruining jokes :|
22:24:53 <oklopol> as if not creating them wasn't enough
22:25:16 <oerjan> augur: lament was joking
22:25:31 <augur> completely confusing joke.
22:25:33 <tusho> well at least we have narrowed down augur's sense of humour
22:25:38 <tusho> it's NOT british ;)
22:25:50 <augur> i dont even see how that'd be british humor
22:25:57 <tusho> i didn't say that, actually
22:25:57 <augur> british humor is intelligent humor
22:26:20 <ais523> actually, it's british humour
22:26:28 <ais523> and is lament British?
22:26:30 <augur> i dont see how it was even a joke :(
22:27:13 <augur> canada is secretly russia
22:27:18 <tusho> (he had a nationality change operation)
22:27:19 <augur> soviet canuckistan!
22:27:35 <augur> where's the nationality? thats next to the pancreas isnt it?
22:28:18 <tusho> augur: yeah, it's very delicate
22:28:29 <augur> thats what i figured it was. i didnt think norwegian had œ
22:28:33 <tusho> sometimes it's too big; which is common in the USA
22:28:43 <oerjan> probably the langerhand isles [sp?]
22:28:43 <augur> i had my nationality removed a while back.
22:29:02 <tusho> i had my body removed recently; i'm a computer program
22:29:19 <oklopol> i don't actually believe the people on irc are real
22:29:33 <oklopol> sometimes i wonder whether i am real myself
22:29:51 <augur> it feels so.. swedish
22:30:00 <augur> oklopol, you're not real.
22:30:17 <oklopol> augur: coming from a bot running in my head, that's not entirely plausable
22:30:33 <augur> oh, so im a bot in your head?
22:30:42 <augur> you have bots in your head that lust are you?
22:30:56 <augur> kind of narcissistic i'd say
22:31:11 <lament> I'm a bot in your brain.
22:31:16 <augur> so rodger the great has bots who have bots that want one another?
22:31:26 <augur> rodger, why are you fantasizing about gay robot sex?
22:31:29 <RodgerTheGreat> augur: reminds me of a saying- "The human mind is only capable of creating illusions"
22:31:30 <oklopol> hmm, that sounds more probably
22:31:31 <oerjan> ah the langerhans isles are _in_ the pancreas
22:32:09 <augur> ørjan, you're from norway?
22:32:24 <RodgerTheGreat> augur: I can't explain that any better than I can explain why I'm fantasizing about robots questioning themselves fantasizing about robots fantasizing about having robot sex
22:32:30 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523|sl.
22:33:11 <tusho> I'm a bot in my mind.
22:34:32 <augur> anyone here danish?
22:35:00 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourHeadASplode
22:35:11 <oerjan> (warning, addictive link)
22:35:54 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: you can't, like, OWN a mind, man- it's there for EVERYBODY...
22:36:59 <augur> there was some show where the guy tried to make some other guys head explode through psychic powers
22:37:14 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
22:37:17 <GregorR> tusho: I think your FFI interface for jsmips should have handles instead of pointers, so it doesn't need to associate memory addresses with JS objects somehow.
22:37:36 <tusho> GregorR: I like turtles.
22:37:51 <tusho> GregorR: Btw, make the font size 12px.
22:37:54 <tusho> It looks a lot nicer.
22:38:04 <tusho> Oh, and once you've done that, make it 80x24.
22:38:07 <GregorR> tusho: I made it 10 because I preferred it to 12 :P
22:38:09 <tusho> (as in the div is actually that large)
22:38:12 <tusho> Then it'll be nicer.
22:38:15 <tusho> GregorR: Well I like to be able to read.
22:38:26 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Why thank you :P
22:38:32 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Have you seen the Bourne shell? ^^
22:38:45 <ais523|sl> it doesn't do a lot without a filesystem, though
22:39:16 <ais523|sl> I'll be really impressed if you can get Linux running in a JS emulator
22:39:34 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
22:39:45 <ais523|sl> GregorR: ah, it does OSy stuff as well as just emulate the processor?
22:40:16 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Yeah, all the syscalls are handled in JS.
22:40:33 <tusho> GregorR: When will linux run?
22:40:36 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Right now that's just read/write/fork/pipe and a few other things.
22:40:46 <GregorR> tusho: Never, it doesn't emulate hardware.
22:40:50 <GregorR> ais523|sl: Well, just not /yet/.
22:41:06 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: it runs sh
22:41:11 <ais523|sl> GregorR: well, in theory, you could get qemu running
22:41:26 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: http://codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
22:41:27 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: I rewrote it more efficiently.
22:41:31 <tusho> DISCLAIMER: use firefox 3 for fucks sake!
22:41:38 <GregorR> It runs fine on FF2 *shrugs*
22:41:46 <GregorR> Hell, it runs fine albeit slowly on Konq.
22:41:51 <tusho> GregorR: Well ff3 was just released officially today so :P
22:41:54 <tusho> And it's a lot faster.
22:41:56 <tusho> As in actually usable.
22:41:57 <RodgerTheGreat> you rewrote the entire bourne shell in MIPS, or did you use GCC and target the MIPS instruction set?
22:42:04 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: gcc
22:42:09 <tusho> he's been using gcc since he started
22:42:13 <tusho> GregorR: Can I non-suckify read()?
22:43:26 <tusho> GregorR: Not making it use a stupid textarea.
22:43:39 <GregorR> Oh, not-suckify Stdin you mean.
22:43:45 <tusho> Oh, and can you make a compile.sh that does sh?
22:43:49 <GregorR> I don't want to rely on focusing on a div.
22:43:56 <tusho> GregorR: It won't.
22:44:04 <GregorR> tusho: Then how do you want it to work?
22:44:09 <tusho> But it will take over the page, because jesus, expecting this to run on another page will just slow down this development horribly.
22:44:19 <tusho> and cripple it unneccessarily for something that will never, ever happen
22:44:29 <tusho> (someone actually using it on a custom page that requires it to be unobtrusive)
22:44:38 <GregorR> tusho: I added the textbox to /de/focus the start button.
22:44:47 <tusho> GregorR: What do you mean?
22:45:05 <GregorR> tusho: If you have the start button focused and you hit 'enter' to send a key to the shell, you'll start a new MIPS.
22:45:15 <tusho> GregorR: Duh, I can fix that trivially
22:45:20 <GregorR> tusho: And I can't tell it to focus on something that isn't a form field in a way that'll work on every browser.
22:45:36 <tusho> GregorR: I can make it work and not have an ugly text-field
22:45:40 <tusho> and actually support backspace, etc.
22:46:14 <GregorR> I'd love to see the stupid text-box replaced, but more than that I'd like to know for myself what the alternative is :P
22:46:31 <ais523|sl> GregorR: I'm sure there's some way to capture keypresses in JS
22:46:40 <ais523|sl> but they can have effects on the rest of the window
22:46:58 <GregorR> ais523|sl: That's what I am doing, I'm catching them in a text box so they /don't/ have an effect on the rest of the window :)
22:47:02 <tusho> I can get it working
22:47:04 <GregorR> Incidentally, Opera seems to have a crazy-fast JavaScript that runs it pretty well too.
22:47:11 <GregorR> tusho: Feel free, I'm just wondering how ;)
22:47:24 <tusho> just let me wrte this :P
22:47:32 <GregorR> OK, letting you write, we'll just speculate until you push :P
22:49:25 <tusho> GregorR: Now how do I compile.sh sh?
22:53:53 <lament> http://amorphia-apparel.com/design/bought/
22:54:47 <augur> i do my own silk screening
22:56:25 <GregorR> tusho: Just compile it with make CC=... AR=... RANLIB=..., then follow the instructions in compile.sh after the compilation part.
22:57:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
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23:00:03 <tusho> GregorR: gettin' closer
23:00:12 <tusho> it works without displaying, now for things like backspace
23:00:43 <tusho> GregorR: heh your problem is only listening to the ascii range
23:01:01 <ais523|sl> ah, my internet connection borked then fixed itself
23:01:03 <ais523|sl> and I got the last two minutes-worth of messages all at once
23:01:03 <GregorR> I was too lazy to properly handle everything else :P
23:01:09 -!- ais523|sl has left (?).
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23:01:26 <tusho> GregorR: well, what do we need to handle...
23:01:36 <tusho> 0del, 8backspace, ^Hbackspace
23:01:37 <ais523|sl> something strange is up with my Internet connection
23:01:56 <ais523|sl> did I leave any channel but #esoteric?
23:02:18 <tusho> ais523|sl: less than a second
23:02:24 <tusho> and just this place
23:02:28 <tusho> but you had your quit message
23:02:29 <ais523|sl> ah, that would be my /cycle kicking in, then
23:03:49 <tusho> ais523|sl: is ^H = 8?
23:05:18 <tusho> ais523|sl: what about ^?
23:07:45 <GregorR> Idonno, but I speculate that if you look at an ASCII chart, it'll be that many after A :P
23:08:49 <tusho> 0 = del, 8 & 177 = backspace
23:08:52 <GregorR> Never mind, that'd be -1 :P
23:08:52 <tusho> what else should we handle?
23:09:49 <tusho> GregorR: I'm not coding tab handling.
23:09:52 <tusho> I'll do the rest, though.
23:09:59 <tusho> ais523|sl: What else do we need to handle, you know this kinda stuff
23:10:04 <GregorR> Because that'll tab through elements in the page.
23:10:23 <tusho> GregorR: Oh, no, I definately catch tab already.
23:10:27 <tusho> We just need to handle it
23:10:35 <tusho> Yes, arrow keys too.
23:10:40 <tusho> GregorR: But don't we just send arrow keys off to the application?
23:10:43 <ais523|sl> well, they'll be trapped in the edit box
23:10:44 <tusho> If so, then we do that already.
23:10:51 <GregorR> tusho: Yeah, same with tab though.
23:11:15 <tusho> GregorR: No. Tab should display as spaces up to the first column divisible by zero.
23:11:26 <tusho> (Or if that's the current one, then the next one.)
23:11:40 <tusho> Applications only catch tab if they put the console into raw mode or similar, I believe
23:12:22 <GregorR> tusho: It's always going to go to the app, even if it's also displayed, but that's two separate problems.
23:12:48 <tusho> Isn't that a problem?
23:12:58 <tusho> I tell you what. I'll just push the current focusy thing I have.
23:13:02 <tusho> Then you handle the extra keys. :P
23:13:40 <tusho> 'sh compile.sh' and admire my awesomeity
23:13:52 <tusho> Wow, you tested it already?
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23:15:56 <GregorR> tusho: No, I was just "rock-on"-ing to the push :P
23:16:10 <GregorR> tusho: I don't know if I like the onblur auto-refocus, that means you can't stop it with the keyboard.
23:16:14 <tusho> Oh, and I changed the font size because I hate you.
23:16:26 <tusho> GregorR: Well if you could stop it with the keyboard we couldn't use tab or similar.
23:16:32 <tusho> I think having to move the mouse slightly is worth it ;)
23:16:46 <GregorR> That's an excellent point :P
23:16:49 <tusho> I mean, if we don't trap everything it'll be a pain to actually USE it.
23:16:54 <tusho> Especially if we get a GUI at one point :-P
23:17:03 <GregorR> Let's focus on the immediate future :P
23:17:37 <tusho> GregorR: It's lovely and zippy, isn't it?
23:18:09 <ais523|sl> you should so implement X11 in JSMIPS
23:18:24 <tusho> ais523|sl: we will
23:18:37 <tusho> we'll implement a <canvas> gfx card driver
23:19:03 <GregorR> That particular "we" is aaaaaaaaall tusho :P
23:19:21 <tusho> ais523|sl: Imagine never having to endure SunOS!
23:19:27 <tusho> Just fullscreen your browser and enjoy KDE in MolassOS!
23:19:32 <GregorR> I was thinking about SDL-over-canvas, I'm pretty sure there are X11-over-SDLs.
23:20:00 <tusho> MolassOS: We'll get back to you.
23:20:04 <GregorR> And SDL doesn't have all the other assumptions that come with X11.
23:20:08 -!- ais523|sl has changed nick to ais523.
23:21:45 <tusho> GregorR: did you like that :-P
23:22:29 <GregorR> If we write MollasOS, that has to be the motto :P
23:23:02 <tusho> GregorR: MolassOS is JSMIPS' OS :P
23:23:33 <GregorR> Well, MollasOS would be the fully-GUI'd ridiculously-over-the-top version.
23:23:50 <GregorR> And I keep spelling "molasses" as "mollases"
23:25:12 <tusho> GregorR: The first graphical program we run should be a simulation of paint drying.
23:25:49 <GregorR> Or grass growing: We could simulate the process as fast as we can manage, and it'd still grow slower than real grass!
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23:28:15 <GregorR> So anyway, I guess it's time for signals D-8
23:28:31 <GregorR> Unfortunately, I haven't used signals in so long, I barely know how they work when implemented properly :P
23:29:26 <lament> does your grass growing simulation involve protein folding?
23:31:23 <tusho> GregorR: Can you rebuild your sh with my version?
23:33:09 <ais523> incidental fun fact: if in fortran you pass a number to a function, and the function then assigns to its argument, you alter that number everywhere in your code
23:33:30 <tusho> ais523: like forte?
23:33:40 <ais523> tusho: not quite the same
23:33:48 <ais523> it only affects literal occurences of that number, like C-INTERCAL
23:33:53 <tusho> Hehehehehehehehe: http://www.reddit.com/info/6nr83/comments/c04dznr
23:33:56 <ais523> not that number when it's the result of an expression, like Forte
23:34:09 <ais523> still, passing constants by reference and assigning to them?
23:34:26 <lament> more esoteric than most esolangs
23:34:33 <tusho> lament: which are dead
23:34:42 <ais523> tusho: there's a Windows version of Wine
23:34:47 <ais523> so you don't need cygwin
23:34:51 <tusho> ais523: yes, but it's still hilarious
23:35:17 <ais523> somehow I think esolangs will be around as long as programming languages are
23:35:18 <GregorR> tusho: Sure - I forgot to mention, I had to change and update the cross-compiler building process because GCC is annoying :( :( :(
23:35:33 <tusho> GregorR: I just picked my brains out with a fork!
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23:35:50 <tusho> GregorR: Say, want shell access to do it for me? :P
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23:37:26 <GregorR> tusho: I accepted last time, but not under the condition that I do some bizarre pledge :P
23:37:53 <tusho> GregorR: Check /msg's.
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23:51:58 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
23:54:49 <augur> btw, for you kids that havent seen it
23:54:51 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTK0kFXJjd0
23:55:02 <tusho> augur: was that targeted at me
23:55:16 <augur> actually it was targeted at everyone
23:55:21 <augur> i call everyone "kids"
23:55:26 <augur> especially if they're older than me
23:56:53 <GregorR> Hm, GCC just compiled cfganal.c
23:57:32 <olsner> yes, that file has "anal" in its name
23:57:36 <augur> a cfg for analsex?
23:57:42 <tusho> presumably it just means anal about errors
23:57:44 <tusho> i.e. complains often
23:57:54 <olsner> it's short for control-flow-graph analysis
23:58:08 <tusho> then it's just extremely strict control flow graph analysis
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23:58:27 <tusho> YOU'RE LIKE OKLOPOL
23:58:36 <GregorR> Yeah, well okloFOK YOU TOO
23:59:02 <oklofok> where the fuck can i get something to drink at 2 am
23:59:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:59:51 <GregorR> But rather than rum-n-coke.