00:03:10 <psygnisfive> itd be interesting to try and develop something like relativity but that affects histories instead of simultaneity
00:05:01 <oerjan> the Everett interpretation is a little bit like that i think
00:05:18 <Ilari> Doesn't TOE (assuming it is eventually discovered) provode answers to things like wheither FTL travel is possible and wheither time travel is possible?
00:05:27 <oerjan> many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics
00:06:08 <psygnisfive> i dont think multiple-worlds QM is the time-equivalent of Relativity's affects on simultaneity
00:06:22 <tusho> {Based on theoretical holographic principle arguments from the 1990s, many physicists believe that 11-dimensional M-theory, which is described in many sectors by matrix string theory, in many other sectors by perturbative string theory is the complete theory of everything. Other physicists disagree.}
00:06:41 <tusho> that was so obviously put there by a string theorist
00:06:44 <tusho> you'd think they'd try harder
00:07:26 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder if it is possible to combine that E8 theory with Z2 grading (supersymmetry)...
00:07:43 <oerjan> "many physicists" seems to be begging for the weasel word template...
00:07:50 <tusho> oerjan: you betcha
00:07:56 <tusho> also, that exceptionally simple theory of everything
00:07:58 <tusho> is apparently bulshit
00:08:08 <tusho> read about it somewhere, apparently it's mainly just a load of buzzwords
00:09:53 <Ilari> The main techincal problem seems to be that it can't represent fermions. On the other hand, supersymmetry operator converts between fermions and bosons....
00:11:02 <Ilari> It also has the weirdness that pretty much all previous theories combined strong force first and then gravity. Apparently that E8 thing first combines gravity and then strong force.
00:12:25 <Ilari> (That's why GUT is theory of strong force, weak force and electromagnetism)....
00:14:01 <oerjan> the old kaluza-klein theory unifies gravity and electromagnetism, but then it's not a quantum theory
00:14:01 <Ilari> In classical model naming, TOE combines GUT with gravity (and is the final theory).
00:14:30 <Ilari> OTOH, there are theories that involve forces beyound the four currently known...
00:15:00 <oerjan> hm wait this web page claims klein
00:15:12 <oerjan> 's part _was_ quantum: http://www.matter-antimatter.com/kaluza-klein_theory.htm
00:16:56 <Ilari> Yeah. Figuring way to merge GR and QM is not trivial. Many attemps have been made, each running into nonsensical stuff (infinities).
00:17:25 <tusho> what's wrong with infinities?
00:17:43 <psygnisfive> theres no such thing as an infinite probability :(
00:18:34 <oerjan> (apparently that web page is affiliated with some people attempting to fix this and probably give their own TOE?)
00:18:35 <Ilari> And even if one doesn't run into infinities, one gets stuff like 10^120 times too large value for some constant (vacuum negative energy density).
00:18:48 <Slereah_> Well, infinities are no good in a universe which doesn't explode and all.
00:19:28 <psygnisfive> maybe the infinite probabilities means it happens in _all_ alternate universes. o.o
00:19:45 <Slereah_> Probabilities are [0;1], psygnisfive.
00:19:54 <Slereah_> Outside, they're non-sensical.
00:20:18 <psygnisfive> simply divide probability/#universes and you get the probability in your universe
00:20:31 <tusho> what, /infinity? :P
00:20:33 <Slereah_> Yes, but the two probabilities are disjoint.
00:20:41 <Slereah_> Or, if they're not, they're not two
00:21:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: i think my summary is, don't write a TOE :P
00:21:44 <Slereah_> Let physicists do their jobs, dude.
00:21:48 <Ilari> infinity/infinity is not well-defined.
00:21:56 <Slereah_> And they will not talk of linguistic :o
00:22:15 <psygnisfive> i used to be a physics major, you know. then my school screwed me over and i had to switch majors
00:24:04 <tusho> 'Toe' - english translation is the correct theory of everything
00:24:09 <tusho> now all we have to do is publish a paper in that language consisting of 'Toe'
00:24:14 <tusho> and we'll be heroes
00:24:24 <Ilari> infinity/infinity can be made to be anything between 0 and infinity by suitable choice of infinities...
00:24:49 <Slereah_> Like for instance, the KJV translation? :o
00:25:35 <Slereah_> "'Toe' - english translation is the correct theory of everything"
00:26:39 <Slereah_> I recently had the idea of a general relativity based particle automaton*
00:26:50 <Slereah_> But then, I realized it would be horrible to write
00:32:32 <Ilari> Hmm... Is there esolangs (besides that unary coding of NULL) that can be proven to be turing-complete, but have all nontrivial programs so large that they can't be written in practice?
00:33:15 <tusho> That primes language.
00:33:18 <tusho> Programs are primes.
00:33:21 <Slereah_> Well, any esolang which requires an infinite input, for a start
00:33:30 <tusho> To write a program, you have to write a program, then encode it into a prime by bruteforcing primes.
00:33:33 <tusho> Slereah_: Not sure.
00:33:35 <tusho> It's on the esowiki.
00:33:45 <tusho> Malbolge is close, too.
00:34:13 <Slereah_> Here's an hello world encoding :D
00:35:44 <oerjan> the rule 110 automaton of Wolfram's gives some huge programs too, i think
00:36:40 <oerjan> (although someone did improve the unary encoding of a TM to a polynomial one)
00:38:04 <tusho> what about ais523's wolfram thing
00:43:12 <oerjan> now we'll have to invent that.
00:45:07 <oerjan> the smallest indecent cardinal
00:45:42 <Ilari> One funky thing is what is aleph_1? Question if aleph_1 equals beth_1 (size of reals) is undecidable from basic (accepted) set-theoretic assumptions...
00:46:24 <tusho> oerjan: we need to define cardinal sins, then
00:46:25 <Slereah_> Aleph 1 is the smallest cardinal higher than aleph 0.
00:46:42 <Slereah_> Cardinal sins already exists, tusho
00:46:43 <tusho> so ... the sine function with cardinals
00:47:10 <tusho> Hey, you're right.
00:47:30 <oerjan> aleph 1 is the cardinal of the first uncountable ordinal, which is again fairly concretely the _set_ of countable well-ordering classes
00:47:34 <tusho> We need to use cardinal sins to define aleph_NAUGHT{Y}
00:47:54 <oerjan> something involving altar boys, presumably.
00:50:47 <psygnisfive> something completely bafflingly different yet brilliantly sensible
00:50:49 * oerjan notes that google gives a hit for aleph-naughty. "Infinite to the power of infinite wishes"
00:50:54 <tusho> psygnisfive: no we need to define aleph_NAUGHT{Y} using the cardinal sin function with altar boys
00:52:05 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%22The_most_important_thing_in_the_programming_language_is_the_name._A_language_will_not_succeed_without_a_good_name._I_have_recently_invented_a_very_good_name_and_now_I_am_looking_for_a_suitable_language.%22
00:52:16 <oerjan> i think this conversation may be illegal in some US states.
00:52:35 <psygnisfive> i think this conversation may be illegal in some USA's.*
00:52:56 <psygnisfive> i still want to make my language that uses natural-language-like syntactic structures.
00:53:13 <oerjan> psygnisfive: have you looked at Perligata?
00:53:19 <Ilari> So crazy that it lacks anything even seeming like instruction pointer? :-)
00:53:44 <psygnisfive> challenge: DESIGN AN ALIEN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE.
00:54:33 <oerjan> psygnisfive: also, maybe ORK
00:55:26 <oerjan> perligata is latin-based though, more about inflections than syntax
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00:55:58 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ORK
00:56:29 <psygnisfive> see, i dont want programming IN natural language, or anything that looks like natural language necessarily
00:56:31 <oerjan> that's the one enforced english syntax language that comes to mind
00:56:38 <psygnisfive> i just want to use concepts from natural language syntax.
00:57:50 <oerjan> to loop, loops, looped, has looped
00:58:29 <AnMaster> A(A(g_64, g_64), A(g_64, g_64)) == ?
00:58:52 <oerjan> ERROR OUT OF SPACETIME
00:59:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Slereah_: oerjan is actually correct
00:59:47 <AnMaster> read up on Graham's number and Ackermann's function
01:00:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, out of space time by how much?
01:00:21 <oerjan> ERROR OUT OF SPACETIME
01:00:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, how many iterations of that question until you are not out of spacetime?
01:00:54 <Slereah_> Technically, using Planck units to define units of space time, the entire universe is way under 10^150 units of spacetime
01:00:55 <oerjan> still ERROR OUT OF SPACETIME, possibly
01:01:43 <olsner> so, how long until we have 10^150 bits on a hard drive?
01:02:00 <Slereah_> As soon as you can fit the universe into it
01:02:34 <oerjan> i believe the holographic hypothesis limits memory to the surface area of the hard drive
01:02:58 <Slereah_> The actual Ackermann function is more complicated
01:03:14 <Slereah_> But the two variable version is common
01:04:27 <tusho> <oerjan> i think this conversation may be illegal in some US states.
01:05:23 <psygnisfive> is it illegal to joke about raping someone who's significantly underage in a context where its obviously a joke?
01:05:55 <oerjan> everyone knows the US law system has no sense of humor
01:05:58 <psygnisfive> more importantly, in the presence of, and being said to, the person fictionally being raped?
01:06:19 <tusho> psygnisfive: i think it would be more clear-cut if I wasn't 12 :-P
01:06:25 <tusho> does freenode do coppa?
01:06:28 <tusho> if so then I shouldn't be here in the first place
01:06:40 <tusho> although that law allows it if you fax in a permission form
01:06:46 <tusho> signed by your parents...
01:07:01 <tusho> AnMaster: paranoid shit
01:07:03 <psygnisfive> i can fax your parents a permission slip and if you and your parents sign it i can rape you?
01:07:07 <ihope> Children's Online Privacy Protection Act.
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - By registering your nickname with Nickserv you agree that you
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - are 13 years of age, or older. For more information about the
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - Children's Online Privacy Protection Act please see their
01:07:13 <oerjan> 00:32 - website at (http://www.coppa.org).
01:07:24 <tusho> ok, well, I'm actually 37
01:07:27 <tusho> I'm just lying that I'm 123
01:07:31 <tusho> that's my official opinion
01:07:35 <tusho> back to the topic of raping me
01:07:43 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:07:44 <ihope> If you're under 13, no Internet for you! Except that's a big exaggeration. You're just not allowed to provide certain information.
01:07:50 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Let's all rape Tusho! :D.
01:08:02 <tusho> ihope: COPPA is universally ignored except by a few annoying people/
01:08:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, where are the logs
01:08:06 * tusho feels raped by ihope
01:08:08 <oerjan> psygnisfive: hey hey, no leaving out the channel logs
01:08:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, WHERE ARE THE CHANNEL LOGS!?
01:08:27 -!- tusho has set topic: HTTP COLON SLASH SLASH TUNES DOT ORG SLASH TILDE NEF SLASH LOGS SLASH ESOTERIC.
01:08:44 <tusho> you have to type to get them
01:08:56 <tusho> i'm not just going to GIVE AWAY the log url
01:09:06 <psygnisfive> colon slash slash is what happens when you have sex without lube
01:09:19 <psygnisfive> colon slash slash tunes is music you listen to while having sex without lube.
01:09:58 <tusho> http colon slash slash tunes is music about the web you listen to while having sex without lube
01:10:04 -!- cherez has joined.
01:10:14 <tusho> who will continue?!
01:10:43 <psygnisfive> STEP UP AND CLAIM YOUR PRIZE AS NUMBER ONE STUPID INTERPRETATION OF THE TOPIC INVENTOR PERSON
01:10:55 <psygnisfive> FIRST TO COMPLETE THE WHOLE TOPIC GETS TO RAPE TUSHO
01:10:57 <tusho> just add the next two words
01:11:45 <tusho> http colon slash slash tunes dot is the hole you get in your brain when you listen to music about the web you listen to while having sex without lube
01:11:46 <psygnisfive> i mean, look at how hes dressed, all slutty like that like
01:11:54 -!- ihope has set topic: PUBLIC LOGS: HTTP COLON SLASH SLASH TUNES DOT ORG SLASH TILDE NEF SLASH LOGS SLASH ESOTERIC.
01:12:10 <psygnisfive> tusho, you are not one step closer to raping yourself.
01:12:14 <ihope> Was I supposed to accidentally type "PUBIC LOGS"?
01:12:22 <tusho> psygnisfive: you add 'dot' then
01:12:39 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: PUBIC LOGS: HTTP COLON SLASH SLASH TUNES DOT ORG SLASH TILDE NEF SLASH LOGS SLASH ESOTERIC.
01:13:35 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: PUBLIC LOGS: HEICH TEE TEE PEE COLON SLASH SLASH TEE YOU EN EE ES DOT OH AR GEE SLASH TILDE EN EE EF SLASH EL OH GEE ES SLASH EE ES OH TEE EE AR AI CEE.
01:14:32 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: PEE YOU BEE EL AI CEE EL OH GEE ES: HEICH TEE TEE PEE COLON SLASH SLASH TEE YOU EN EE ES DOT OH AR GEE SLASH TILDE EN EE EF SLASH EL OH GEE ES SLASH EE ES OH TEE EE AR AI CEE.
01:15:00 <tusho> PEE YOU BEE EYE CEE EL OH GEE ESS COLON HEICH EE EYE CEE HEIGH TEE EE EE TEE EE EE PEE EE EE CEE OH EL OH EN ESS EL AYE ESS HEICH ...
01:15:10 <tusho> psygnisfive beat me
01:15:22 <tusho> I was spelling out the spelling out after the colon too
01:15:42 <ihope> What are heich and heigh?
01:16:02 <oerjan> i would like to make a public statement about the topic: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYEEEEEH!!!!!!!
01:16:25 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: AAAAAAAAAAAYEEEEHHH!!!!!!!!!.
01:16:31 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: PEE YOU BEE EL AI CEE EL OH GEE ES: HEICH TEE TEE PEE COLON SLASH SLASH TEE YOU EN EE ES DOT OH AR GEE SLASH TILDE EN EE EF SLASH EL OH GEE ES SLASH EE ES OH TEE EE AR AI CEE.
01:16:36 <ihope> PUBICLOGS:*EIC*TEETEEPEECOLONSLIS*... yeah.
01:16:37 -!- tusho has set topic: Welcome to Qrrbrbirlbel.
01:17:34 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: double you ee el cee oh em ee tee oh queue arrrrrrrrr! bee arr bee eye arr el bee ee el.
01:17:41 -!- tusho has set topic: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
01:17:54 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: EFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
01:18:29 <tusho> you need EFF * number of Fs
01:18:46 -!- tusho has set topic: EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF EFF.
01:19:04 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: ee eff eff ee eff eff ee eff eff.
01:19:10 -!- tusho has set topic: EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF EE EFF EFF.
01:19:15 <tusho> let's stop iterating this
01:19:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: Warning: Topical cyclone. Please seek cover..
01:19:35 <ihope> 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110
01:19:39 <ihope> Or something like that, anyway.
01:20:08 -!- tusho has set topic: Http:// TUNES.ORG cyclone. Please /~nef/ cover. Logs/esoteric.
01:21:52 <tusho> ay eye tee cee aitch ee ee ee el ee el oh aitch
01:22:32 <ihope> ee el el o. ee ee space ee el space ee el o. ee ee space ee ee space es pee ay cee ee space . . .
01:22:43 * oerjan predicts convergence of this substitution sequence
01:23:08 <tusho> omit the spaces :(
01:23:09 <ihope> I think by convergence, you mean turning into ais523's Turing tape thingy.
01:23:10 <tusho> just spell out the letters
01:23:18 <tusho> i'll redo if you want
01:23:28 <oerjan> no i mean convergence to an infinitely long fixpoint sequence
01:23:32 <ihope> ee el el o. ee ee ee el ee el o. ee ee ee ee ee ee ee el ee ee ee el o.
01:23:53 <psygnisfive> ay bee cee dee ee eff(!) gee aitch(!) eye(!) jay kay el(!) em(!) en(!) oh pee queue you(!) arr(!) es(!) tee you(!) vee double you(!) eks(!) why(!) zee
01:23:56 <tusho> ay why ee why ee tee ee ee cee ee ee ay eye tee cee aitch ee ee ee ee ee ee ee el ee ee ee el oh aitch ay eye tee cee aitch
01:23:59 <tusho> (ihope's was wrong. I fixed it.)
01:24:01 <ihope> In this case, I guess that would be ee ee ee ee ee ee ee...
01:24:10 <ihope> If you're using Haskell or something.
01:24:10 <tusho> psygnisfive: continue from mine
01:24:27 <oerjan> hm right ee is trivial
01:24:44 <oerjan> and all of course eventually get periodic
01:24:49 <tusho> someone continue from mine :(
01:25:03 <psygnisfive> eff, aitch, eye, el, em, en, arr, es, and eks are all non-self starting
01:25:15 <psygnisfive> but they each start with self starting ones
01:26:21 <psygnisfive> well, not fixed points, but they eventually devolve into containing the same stuff over and over
01:26:33 <oerjan> the limit is a fixpoint
01:26:51 <tusho> ay why double-you aitch why ee ee double-you aitch why ee ee tee ee ee ee ee ee ee cee ee ee ee ee ee ee ay why ee why ee tee ee ee cee ee ee ay eye tee cee aitch ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee
01:27:26 <tusho> i'ma write a JS thing that lets you type in something
01:27:30 <tusho> and it morphs into the new versions
01:27:47 <psygnisfive> tusho it takes two seconds, dont be such a pussy.
01:27:54 <tusho> dude it's 1:30am and I'm going
01:28:34 <ihope> morph =... your two-second time limit has expired. Please insert coin to proceed.
01:29:24 <oerjan> i'd say ihope's hebrew is really going downhill there
01:30:03 <ihope> The only other Hebrew things I remember are "ma is what?" and "you want I should".
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03:12:57 <Slereah_> http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Rob/superjerk-is-a-jerk.png
03:19:17 <Slereah_> Captain N is just a dreadful show.
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03:55:18 <psygnisfive> im doing visualizations of alphabet look and speak?
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04:08:45 <psygnisfive> anyone know of a good technique for turning exponential growth into polynomial growth? :\
04:12:07 <ihope> Take the logarithm?
04:12:46 <oerjan> pad the input with zeros
04:16:53 <oerjan> switching input from binary to unary would also work
04:23:38 <ihope> Hmm. I was reading about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller, a Supreme Court case restricting gun laws.
04:24:13 <ihope> There's a section titled "Henderson's dissent"; at first, I thought it said "Handguns for dissent".
04:24:29 <ihope> "I don't like how the government's running things." *BLAM*
04:25:54 * oerjan thought that was the amendment's _intended_ use ;)
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05:50:18 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/alphabeticalseesay.xhtml
06:00:21 <psygnisfive> a -> ay -> ay why -> ay why double you aitch why -> ...
06:00:49 <psygnisfive> each letter from a-z is replaced by a colored bar
06:00:58 <psygnisfive> graphed twice, once left aligned, once right aligned
06:01:21 <psygnisfive> its completely trivial in its left expansion
06:01:41 <psygnisfive> its always the same from row to row, plus some.
06:01:51 <psygnisfive> while the right expansion is almost always the same from row to row
06:01:59 <psygnisfive> with the same parts growing on the right each time
06:02:14 <psygnisfive> some are self similar in that say, but not from the left edge
06:02:34 <Slereah_> I apparently have pictures of myself where I'm naked, and a minor
06:03:03 <psygnisfive> also, it is technically illegal in the US, yes.
06:22:39 <Slereah_> I'm also watching the "Colour of Magick" movie
06:22:50 <Slereah_> It's not a book that lends itself well for movies, though
06:28:46 <Slereah_> Also, Two Flower does not look very asian
06:35:03 <Slereah_> And now he's speaking English D:
06:35:16 <Slereah_> I guess having him speak in goobledigook the whole movie would be annoying
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07:29:27 <psygnisfive> the alphabetical look-tell is a fractal :o
07:34:14 <psygnisfive> its hard to see with only the 6 iterations there
07:34:58 <psygnisfive> but with "a", from 2/9 to 4/9 is the same as from 7/9 to 9/9
07:35:33 <psygnisfive> and in the middle there are some similarities too, too, which expand outward
07:35:47 <psygnisfive> or consider y, which is part of the cause of the fractalness
07:36:30 <Slereah_> Well, I suppose that it's because most letters contains themselves in their pronounciations.
07:37:06 <psygnisfive> because no letter contains itself more then once, except e
07:37:54 <Slereah_> So is fractality for any string?
07:38:39 <psygnisfive> anything like bee or el will not be fractal
07:39:25 <psygnisfive> so a h i j k o q r u w x y are all fractal
07:41:12 <psygnisfive> the names for letters contain themselves or other letters that contain the letter, or are fractal.
07:41:21 <psygnisfive> the whole thing just explodes out into self similarity
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07:50:39 <psygnisfive> unless the language prints by default, and it prints strings as surrounded by quotes
07:50:50 <psygnisfive> in which case all strings are quines in that language
07:51:14 <Slereah_> Because I have no epsilons on my keyboard.
07:51:59 <Slereah_> epsilon represents the empty string
07:52:00 <psygnisfive> because you'd need to print the string containing the symbol e
07:52:13 <Slereah_> As you might know, IRC doesn't accept empty input.
07:52:40 <psygnisfive> i went through a whole semester of formal semantics
07:52:59 <psygnisfive> the first month was nothing but object language vs metalanguage
07:53:11 <Slereah_> Well, it's metalanguage, you cock
07:53:48 <psygnisfive> a grammar that has a symbol for the empty string can itself be specified with another grammar, but that other grammar treats the symbol for the empty string as just any other terminal symbol
07:54:44 <Slereah_> Except metalanguage, you turdburglar.
07:55:40 <psygnisfive> like i said, it IS possible that you could do that
07:55:51 <Slereah_> The fact that I was not suggesting putting two quotes in the program but nothing.
07:56:04 <psygnisfive> "" would indeed be valid IF the language by default printed bare strings surrounded by quotes.
07:56:56 <psygnisfive> but that suffers from the same problem as ""
07:57:22 <psygnisfive> but in this case, it just prints nothingness
07:57:49 <psygnisfive> and all programs print nothingness, since any instance of nothingness is printed
07:57:56 <psygnisfive> which means you print an infinite number of times
07:58:09 <psygnisfive> which means that technically its not a quine
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08:00:37 <Slereah_> So it might be an infinity of nothing.
08:00:55 <Slereah_> So it's a quine, and a repeating quine :o
08:01:11 <psygnisfive> but if it prints each empty string once then it prints an infinite number of empty strings
08:01:27 <psygnisfive> which i guess is technically what the source is
08:01:54 <Slereah_> Are you going to askv what's the sound of one hand clapping now?
08:02:22 <psygnisfive> no, because clapping is defined as involving two hands and thus the question is based on false premises and has no answer.
08:02:38 <psygnisfive> anyone who knows anything about zen understands that thats the point of those koans.
08:03:20 <Slereah_> Then why are you asking stupid things about the empty string.
08:03:22 <psygnisfive> they're meant to reveal the pointlessness of asking such questions because wanting answers is yet another attachment
08:03:37 <psygnisfive> im asking these questions because we're not in a zen monastery! >O
08:05:16 <psygnisfive> IT IS NEITHER THE WIND NOR THE FLAG THAT IS MOVING.
08:05:42 <Slereah_> But the universe around it? D:
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09:04:26 <oklopol> it's the eyes that are moving
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09:43:14 <oklopol> psygnisfive: no, for some reason nnscript decided to start cutting off my backlog at random.
09:43:31 <oklopol> is the extent of what i see
09:44:50 <oklopol> this is such a windows client, pretty nice to use, and pretty, but you never know when some random option suddenly enables, and everything changes for the worse.
09:44:51 <psygnisfive> it produces multiple iterations of the "replace each letter with its name"
09:45:03 <oklopol> http://wellnowwhat.net/alphabeticalseesay.xhtml
09:45:47 <psygnisfive> a => ay => ay why => ay why double you aitch why
09:46:36 <psygnisfive> but instead of displaying each iteration like that
09:47:02 <psygnisfive> i chose to display each iteration by stripping white space and displaying each character as a colored vertical bar
09:47:17 <oklopol> i've never seen those phonetically written forms of english letters
09:47:35 <oklopol> not phonetically... dunno what the word is
09:47:47 <oklopol> well kinda phonetically, anyway, the names for the chars
09:47:47 <psygnisfive> named letters for english are rare and sketchy
09:48:03 <oklopol> yeah, that is probably why i haven't found them.
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09:48:46 <psygnisfive> the colors correspond to one of the 26 letters
09:49:20 <oklopol> well sure, sure, but others expand more interestingly
09:49:42 <psygnisfive> there are two versions of the iterations, as you can see
09:50:10 <oklopol> i wouldn't call that a fractal
09:50:35 <psygnisfive> notice how with the left edges aligned its clear that the nth+1 iteration is just the nth iteration, followed by a bunch of stuff
09:51:00 <psygnisfive> now notice that when you align the right edges, the nth+1 iteration is a bunch of stuff followed by most of the right half of the nth iteration
09:51:15 <psygnisfive> so the right edge is ALMOST the same behavior as the left edge
09:51:38 <psygnisfive> specifically, the right 2/9 of the nth+1 is the right 2/3 of the nth
09:52:19 <psygnisfive> for "a" the ratio is about 3 to 1 between the nth+1 and nth iteration in length
09:52:22 <oklopol> umm, you concatenate that part there, or it just happens to be there?
09:53:07 <psygnisfive> ay why double you aitch why dee oh you bee el ee why oh you ay eye tee cee aitch double you aitch why
09:53:39 <psygnisfive> "double you aitch why" is in the beginning
09:54:05 <oklopol> yeah so you can nest the middle?
09:54:38 <psygnisfive> plus ANOTHER "double you aitch why" at the end
09:55:00 <psygnisfive> plus the "y" from expanding the "a" you get from expanding "aitch"
09:55:31 <psygnisfive> a -> ay, y -> why, w -> double you, h -> aitch
09:56:22 <psygnisfive> if you expand "a" far enough you actually find that it contains a whole copy of itself
09:56:32 <psygnisfive> indeed, its not hard to see why even from the first step
09:56:32 <oklopol> yeah, nice, but i still wouldn't call it a fractal unless you let me explore the infinite sequence :P
09:56:50 <oklopol> hmm, a whole copy of itself?
09:57:08 <psygnisfive> if we expand "a" to some arbitrary depth N
09:57:20 <psygnisfive> we're going to have atleast 1 "a" in that expansion
09:57:38 <psygnisfive> if we expand another N times, that "a" expands to the first sequence
09:57:43 <oklopol> just didn't know what you meant
09:57:51 <psygnisfive> but theres actually more than one "a" after enough expansions
09:58:07 <psygnisfive> so you can zoom in on the thing and hey presto, theres another copy of the thing.
09:59:10 <psygnisfive> but what i find really interesting is that for "a" and other similar expansions
09:59:31 <oklopol> if for all mappings x -> y in a look-and-say sequence, y contains x, you can make it a fractal by dividing each character into three pieces, one for the character x in the expanded y, and two for the parts on its left and right side
09:59:43 <psygnisfive> while the other edge produces n+1 == some stuff then most of n
10:00:08 <psygnisfive> the whole of n creates a whole subpart of n+1 on one side
10:01:05 <psygnisfive> not because it actually does that ofcourse, it just expands each letter
10:01:11 <psygnisfive> and the initial condition set up the recursion
10:01:26 <psygnisfive> you can see it plainly in "a" from step two
10:01:48 <psygnisfive> we get two "y"s from one, and we'll continue to product this over and over
10:02:39 <oklopol> tell me when the fractal can be viewed
10:03:07 <psygnisfive> its already partially viewable by the fact that parts of the nth iteration are the same as other parts
10:03:39 <psygnisfive> and the fact that the n+1th iteration is the whole nth iteration copied nearly twice and put together with a bit more means that each iteration increases the self similarity
10:04:05 <psygnisfive> tho because its one dimensional and complicated, its kind of hard to see the full fractal nature
10:06:15 <AnMaster> This is a test of whenever tusho reads logs.
10:10:38 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it has a fractal nature, i just think you're not viewing it fractally enough
10:11:33 <oklopol> i mean, the sequence 1, 11, 1111, 11111111, 1111111111111111 has a fractal nature, but i wouldn't call it a fractal written like that
11:24:51 <Slereah_> I wonder where the w<hole "Science!" thing came out
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15:56:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: damn your thing is lame, I'm gonna write mine now just because it sucks so much
16:01:33 <tusho> 23:56:56 <Slereah_> You...
16:01:33 <tusho> 23:56:57 <Slereah_> You...
16:01:34 <tusho> 23:57:03 <Slereah_> Ah, yes.
16:01:34 <tusho> 23:57:06 <Slereah_> Double nigger.
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16:06:14 <tusho> make a third version
16:06:17 <tusho> with it aligned to the center
16:06:21 <tusho> i bet it'll be pretty
16:08:06 <AnMaster> tusho, all of it? or just grepping for your name?
16:09:06 <tusho> no, just 4-7 minutes when I logon
16:37:18 <tusho> didn't notice you there
16:37:22 <tusho> I was too busy saying hi to oklopol
16:38:09 <oklopol> i occasionally start an infinite loop by hying myself in pm.
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17:35:11 <ihope> So, a sonic computer.
17:36:56 <ihope> Sonic computing would require overcoming the superposition principle, as otherwise signals couldn't interact at all.
17:37:51 <ihope> I think the key element in a sonic computer would be a bistable. Perhaps something whose resonant frequency changes with the amplitude at which it's vibrating.
17:39:00 <ihope> If you play 440Hz at such an element while its resonant frequency is 300Hz, not much will happen. If you increase the amplitude of your 440Hz wave enough, the resonant frequency will "catch", becoming close to 440Hz, and at the same time making the amplitude much higher.
17:39:57 <ihope> If you decrease the amplitude of the incoming wave back to where it was before, the element may still be resonating, making its own amplitude of vibration higher than it was originally, in turn making its resonant frequency such that it does indeed resonate.
17:55:18 <AnMaster> ihope, so how would you program it?
17:57:03 <ihope> Well, each of these elements would work as one bit of data storage. The "power line" would play a constant frequency at a constant amplitude, and these would power the elements. I guess when the elements are resonating with the power, their "output amplitude", whatever that is, will be higher than when they're not.
17:58:30 <AnMaster> ihope, so how would you turn just one element off?
17:58:45 <tusho> I wonder if <meta http-equiv='X-UA-Compatible' value='IE=5'> works...
17:58:50 <tusho> If so, that's deliciously evil and I'm doing it.
17:58:51 <ihope> Play the opposite of the power wave into just that one element.
17:58:55 <tusho> The IE8 users will feel PAIN!
17:59:29 <ihope> To turn just that element on, play the power wave into that element, in addition to the power it normally receives.
17:59:45 <AnMaster> ihope, so a lot of speakers or?
17:59:55 <tusho> AnMaster: X-UA-Compatible is a Bad Idea. Basically, Microsoft don't like having a standards-compliant rendering engine that actually works by default. So they have a great idea for IE8: put it into emulate-an-older-and-even-more-broken-rendering-engine mode by default!
18:00:03 <tusho> X-UA-Compatible lets you choose WHICH version of the engine it will use.
18:00:13 <tusho> It's designed for making it use the slightly-better engine, that is IE=8
18:00:22 <tusho> But IE 5 is just good enough at HTML & CSS to totally break my page.
18:00:22 <AnMaster> ihope, also how would you *fetch* a bit?
18:00:35 <AnMaster> tusho, does the site work in lynx?
18:00:50 <ihope> Not a bunch of speakers, just one thingy that produces a constant wave, the power wave. And some mechanical switches for input, I guess.
18:00:53 <tusho> semantic markup, styling with css to taste
18:01:05 <AnMaster> ihope, and how do the cpu work?
18:01:08 <tusho> Though. AnMaster, stop using lynx. Lynx is a terrible browser that ignores most standards and indeed just plain fails e.g. at tables.
18:01:13 <tusho> Use elinks or w3m. Think of the kittens.
18:01:23 <AnMaster> tusho, but it can handle shorttags!
18:01:35 <ihope> Fetching a bit would consist of attaching another tube to it so the waves it's producing can go somewhere else.
18:01:35 <tusho> AnMaster: I think w3m probably can.
18:02:02 <AnMaster> ihope, and how would addition work? or CPU
18:02:05 <ihope> Computation would consist of putting two waves together and putting the result in another register.
18:02:19 <tusho> AnMaster: well, i guess you'll have to give up shorttags
18:02:57 <tusho> I guess you're low-specced.
18:03:06 <AnMaster> tusho, well no, but I prefer to use my ram for other stuff
18:04:15 <ihope> You'd have high waves and low waves of various phases, and you can combine them to make superpositions, and then you can take those superpositions and stuff them through registers to get something that's not a superposition but either a high or a low.
18:04:59 <ihope> Or something in between if you do it exactly right; ideally, every state of the registers that's between high and low will be an unstable equilibrium.
18:05:15 <ihope> Well, unstable, anyway; they don't actually have to be equilibria, do they?
18:05:59 <tusho> AnMaster: fun fact - my site will contain no <div>s, <span>s, class=""s or id=""s
18:06:07 <AnMaster> ihope, how could the machine fetch the program from it's own memory?
18:06:14 <tusho> because HTML5 provides a wealth of semantic elements which act exactly like <div>s or <span>s which have semantic meaning
18:06:17 <tusho> so I can just style them
18:06:22 <tusho> AnMaster: that's a class=""
18:06:27 <tusho> <nav> - navigation
18:06:28 <tusho> <article> - article
18:06:30 <tusho> <section> - section
18:06:38 <tusho> <header>, <footer>, ...
18:06:42 <ihope> AnMaster: the program would be stored in the registers somehow, I guess.
18:06:43 <AnMaster> but does browsers handle html5?
18:07:05 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, a lot of them will just ignore the "invalid" tags
18:07:07 <AnMaster> ihope, what about main memory?
18:07:10 <tusho> and still let you style them
18:07:23 <tusho> AnMaster: http://rails.intertwingly.net/blog/ has no div,span,class,id
18:07:29 <tusho> works in just about everything
18:07:39 <ihope> Registers are memory.
18:07:57 <AnMaster> ihope, you need a LOT of registers then
18:07:58 <tusho> and yes it works in ly nx
18:08:32 <AnMaster> tusho, http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Frails.intertwingly.net%2Fblog%2F
18:08:42 <tusho> AnMaster: Duh. That is an HTML 4.01 checker.
18:08:51 <tusho> HTML 5 isn't actually formally published; but most of it is stable.
18:09:12 <tusho> (It won't be actually formally published until, like, 321023146545 AD, but browsers have supported it for years now.)
18:09:32 <AnMaster> is there any validator for it then?
18:09:40 <tusho> AnMaster: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Frails.intertwingly.net%2Fblog%2F
18:09:47 <tusho> beta, but works fine
18:09:55 <AnMaster> Info: The Content-Type was application/xhtml+xml. Using the XML parser (not resolving external entities).
18:10:06 <tusho> AnMaster: what about it?
18:10:14 <tusho> HTML5 has two serializations
18:10:25 <tusho> the actual language is identical
18:10:32 <tusho> but e.g. sam ruby uses it so he can embed svg and mathml
18:10:34 <tusho> which are xml languages
18:10:47 <tusho> nothing odd about it
18:12:17 <AnMaster> trac-bzr for 0.11 really rocks
18:12:29 <AnMaster> http://envbot.org/trac/browser
18:13:07 <AnMaster> http://67.202.82.26/trac/browser
18:16:55 <ihope> Also, I want a linear or nonlinear programming language.
18:17:01 <ihope> Doesn't really matter which.
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18:21:13 <ihope> You know what linear programming and nonlinear programming are?
18:21:29 <AnMaster> ihope, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean
18:21:47 <ihope> I don't know what such a language would consist of.
18:22:04 <AnMaster> well can you decribe what you mean with those terms?
18:22:40 <AnMaster> ihope, maybe give an example of a linear and a non-linear langauge?
18:23:12 <ihope> I know that there's such a thing as linear programming, and such a thing as a programming language. I have no idea what a linear programming language would be, but it sounds cool.
18:23:38 <AnMaster> ihope, would C be linear or non-linear?
18:24:05 <ihope> I don't think C has anything to do with linear or nonlinear programming language.
18:24:19 <AnMaster> and I got no idea what those are
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18:52:39 <tusho> psygnisfive: do my suggestion!
18:52:44 <tusho> make a center-aligned one
18:52:47 <tusho> i bet it'd be nice
18:54:04 <psygnisfive> center aligning without stretching is worthless
18:54:13 <psygnisfive> and stretching them to be the same width is also worthless
18:54:29 <tusho> psygnisfive: well just put it up 'cause I wanna see it
18:54:42 <tusho> i have some other silly ideas too
18:54:43 <psygnisfive> but you cant see the self similarities as easily
18:56:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: put it up or i'll never let you rape me again
18:57:03 <tusho> i'm glad rape is a good motivator
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19:01:50 <tusho> psygnisfive: let us control how many generations it shows? pweeze? :D
19:02:12 <psygnisfive> er.. sure, but i warn you, each generation takes a shitload of time more than the last to display.
19:02:33 <tusho> 'cause, idea for awesome thing:
19:02:52 <tusho> pick an X number of generations so that the generated center one is square
19:02:57 <tusho> do (X/2) generations
19:03:05 <tusho> and put it on top of its vertically-reversed self
19:09:16 <psygnisfive> the center one doesnt show up because the vertical bands are getting too small to see.
19:11:00 <tusho> :::((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((99999999999
19:11:45 <tusho> psygnisfive: ok then
19:11:55 <tusho> say we have the first generation
19:12:07 <tusho> find the first character in it
19:12:15 <tusho> find the first occurance of it in the second generation
19:12:20 <tusho> and align the two up
19:12:24 <tusho> repeat for all future generations
19:12:55 <psygnisfive> thatd show the fractal nature of the thing more clearly, i suppose.
19:13:21 <psygnisfive> doing this in JavaScript and HTML is really slow tho. i'd need something more like flash and i dont have flash.
19:13:34 <psygnisfive> hell, i dont even know of flash would work
19:14:40 <tusho> and you can learn it in like 5 minutes.
19:14:42 <tusho> maybe not 5 minutes
19:15:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: what are your colours?
19:16:00 <tusho> and i'll do something
19:17:22 <tusho> psygnisfive: what, <canvas>?
19:17:35 <psygnisfive> dont worry. give me a few to make it work.
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19:29:11 <tusho> psygnisfive: progress? :P
19:29:18 <tusho> ooh something changed
19:29:23 <tusho> I can tell by the sores
19:29:28 <tusho> the sores changed.
19:29:31 <psygnisfive> yes, its working fine, im trying to figure out something interesting. silence. :P
19:29:44 <tusho> psygnisfive: i hope you know the sores are open.
19:29:50 * tusho stops making bad puns
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19:47:00 <tusho> make 'e' go to 'ii'
19:47:08 <tusho> it won't ee-explode
19:47:35 <augur> firefox keeps fucking caching the whole goddamned page and loading the cache
19:47:42 <augur> so i cant make changes and check them in FF
19:47:46 <augur> stupid fucking piece of shit browser
19:47:58 <augur> SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY
19:48:11 <tusho> one extra press on yer keyboard
19:48:44 <tusho> it ignores the generation count thuough.
19:49:08 <tusho> it does 'e' totally wrongly
20:05:32 <augur> did i tell you i was done?
20:08:03 <augur> look at it now, fine.
20:08:29 <tusho> augur: is lacking in my idea
20:08:56 <augur> im not lacking in your idea
20:08:58 <tusho> (my aligning idea)
20:09:11 <augur> the center aligning?
20:09:15 <augur> im working on it. patients.
20:09:15 <tusho> to align generation B with previous generation A:
20:09:32 <tusho> Pick the first character of A. Find the first occurance of B. Move A to align with the first occurance in B.
20:09:37 <tusho> (Or the other way around, whatever.)
20:09:43 <augur> oh. thats much more complicated.
20:10:32 <tusho> augur: but it'd show the fractal nature.
20:10:39 <tusho> and it'd be pretty
20:10:48 <augur> why dont YOU do it then? :P
20:11:08 <tusho> because i am not as awesome as you
20:11:11 <tusho> and i wouldn't make it as awesomely
20:13:07 <tusho> augur: did that sucking up work
20:13:32 <tusho> don't you like the fractal nature
20:18:22 <augur> check out the center alignment :)
20:18:38 <tusho> augur: that's not mine
20:18:43 <tusho> i would have thought it'd look different
20:19:02 <tusho> is the bottom one mine
20:19:11 <augur> no, the bottom one is just center alignment.
20:19:22 <tusho> is e -> ii better than e -> ee?
20:19:25 <tusho> just repeating sucks
20:19:43 <augur> i like the just repeating tho because it adds large spots that behave as delimiters, which grow
20:19:47 <tusho> after 10 generations it breaks
20:19:50 <tusho> (for 'how are you today')
20:19:54 <tusho> it just stays the same
20:20:08 <augur> the width of the canvas is 1000px
20:20:12 <tusho> augur: ok, terrible idea -
20:20:18 <augur> it only draws 1000 px of the image
20:20:18 <tusho> what happens if you make the replacements list:
20:20:27 <tusho> that'll never grow
20:20:38 <augur> sure gimme a second
20:28:32 <tusho> augur: i'd really like to see that <.<
20:44:44 <tusho> augur: dude just let me specify them without the :
20:45:06 <augur> but then what if you want to add other letters?
20:45:06 <tusho> o, and slight bug-report: the middle one. the 6th row is darker than the others
20:45:17 <augur> yeah i know the middle one is wonky.
20:45:29 <tusho> then will you do my idea
20:46:15 <augur> actually im making it better in the long run.
20:46:20 <augur> your idea is hard to do, tusho.
20:47:40 <tusho> a:za,b:yb,c:xc,d:wd,e:ve,f:uf,g:tg,h:sh,i:ri,j:qj,k:pk,l:ol,m:nm,n:mn,o:lo,p:kp,q:jq,r:ir,s:hs,t:gt,u:fu,v:ev,w:dw,x:cx,y:by,z:az
20:47:59 <tusho> especially with the centered one
20:48:15 <tusho> and especially with the alphabetic
20:48:39 <tusho> with the centered one and the alphabet, it kinda fades into oblivion
20:50:06 <tusho> augur: can you do multiple chars on the LHS
20:50:50 <tusho> that would be cool
20:51:02 <augur> maybe in the next revision
20:53:05 <oklopol> yay then i can run my ski in it
20:53:40 <tusho> oklopol: that was my thought
20:53:43 <tusho> damn now I have to do that
20:54:41 <tusho> augur: really nice one
20:54:41 <tusho> a:zz,b:yy,c:xx,d:ww,e:vv,f:uu,g:tt,h:ss,i:rr,j:qq,k:pp,l:oo,m:nn,n:mm,o:ll,p:kk,q:jj,r:ii,s:hh,t:gg,u:ff,v:ee,w:dd,x:cc,y:bb,z:aa
20:55:14 <oklopol> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/thue.txt is the ski, just do s/\n/,/ and s/::=/:/
20:56:14 <ihope> I wonder if there's an easy way to calculate e using Thue.
20:56:34 * ihope settles for calculating phi
20:57:54 <oklopol> ihope: muture is kind of a linear programming language
20:58:17 <ihope> Does it involve linear programming?
20:58:39 <oklopol> i'm not sure what that is, just max-/minimizing linear functions?
20:59:16 <oklopol> muture has << and >> for "find such values for variables that result of expression min-/maximizes"
20:59:43 <oklopol> it's a simple functional language with those two declarative constructs
21:00:15 <tusho> oklopol: let's make a language based on string unrewriting
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21:01:06 <oklopol> tusho: sounds good. it is like thue, except A::=B does *not* rewrite occurrances of A to B.
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21:01:17 <ihope> Shut up, freenode.
21:01:19 <tusho> we want turing completeness, though!
21:02:09 <oklopol> ...wouldn't *un*turing completeness be enough?
21:02:23 <ihope> A sample of Thue phi: bababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbababbababbabbababbaba
21:02:28 <ihope> bbabbababbabbababbabab
21:02:38 <tusho> bababababa bababababababababababbababa
21:04:18 <oklopol> perhaps do fib and then unary division?
21:04:54 <oklopol> fibonacci should be trivial, and unary division should be just as trivial
21:05:01 <oklopol> so really it should be a bit too easy for you
21:05:02 <ihope> This phi isn't good enough?
21:05:39 <ihope> Divide the number of bs by the number of as. You should get phi.
21:05:48 * ihope writes a Thue program that outputs 3.333...
21:05:51 <ihope> Really quite easy.
21:06:44 <ihope> <3::=3<*3*; *3*3::=3*3*; *3*>::=3>
21:06:50 <ihope> Which is, of course, not the best way of doing it.
21:07:01 <ihope> It'd be easier to just say * ::= 3*.
21:07:25 * ihope ponders a binary-to-ternary conversion
21:07:37 <tusho> you can use wildcards in thue replacements?!
21:07:39 <tusho> all makes sense now ...
21:07:49 <ihope> * isn't a wildcard, it's just a character.
21:07:56 <tusho> that's fucking clever.
21:08:06 <ihope> Thanks, I guess. :-)
21:08:08 <oklopol> ihope: what is that started on?
21:08:44 <ihope> If you replaced the <3> with <12345>, it would give you 3.123451234512345..., except it doesn't know about 1, 2, 4 and 5.
21:08:51 <tusho> that doesn't output it.
21:09:06 <oklopol> ihope: i don't get it, you just create an infinite sequence of 3's?
21:09:21 <tusho> ihope: dude he's asking how you did phi
21:10:05 <oklopol> you obfuscated, failed or... are weird?
21:11:41 <ihope> I made it more general. Except it still only works with 3s, so that's really less general than one would hope.
21:11:58 <ihope> Easily extensible to include 4s as well!
21:12:05 <augur> a:zz,... is boring...
21:12:19 <oklopol> you mean, generate and infinite sequence of certain characters?
21:13:02 <ihope> I guess it turns out I am weird after all.
21:13:29 <oklopol> i can't really read yours, but i suck at reading code anyway
21:14:21 <oklopol> asdf, games are so boring to code
21:14:34 <oklopol> no instant gratification, unlike with, say, parsers and interps :o
21:14:58 <tusho> oklopol: our next languages should make game programming awesome
21:15:10 * ihope ponders how possible it is to convert binary into ternary in Thue
21:15:30 <augur> ihope: its 100% possible
21:15:42 <oklopol> tusho: i'm actually designing something like that already, but i'm designing about a hundred languages so no surprise prolly
21:15:43 <ihope> Indeed. It may not be easy, though.
21:15:50 <augur> oh it aint easy i can guarantee that
21:16:03 <tusho> oklopol: yes but we would be together
21:16:04 <ihope> How inefficient. :-)
21:16:07 <tusho> so I would kind of push my idea
21:16:09 <augur> pps'es are painfully hard to use
21:16:10 <tusho> and you'd push yours
21:16:14 <tusho> and we'd blend into one
21:16:41 <oklopol> tusho: yes, yes, let's push each others' and explode
21:16:51 <tusho> that DID come out wrong
21:17:21 * oklopol thinks about base conversion in thue now, ihope better not do it first.
21:17:48 <ihope> "What's 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 in binary?" "Just a sec..." *writes down 2,000,000,000,000,000,000 zeros*
21:18:08 <augur> thats not correct :(
21:18:39 <oklopol> oh, right, it's actually pretty easy
21:19:01 <ihope> I'm converting the part after the decimal, by the way.
21:19:01 <augur> ihope cant convert to base 2 :D
21:19:15 <ihope> Just taking my time, I'm sure. :-)
21:19:19 <augur> the part after the decimal onverts easilly
21:19:34 <ihope> Besides, I'm actually thinking of a rather different thing.
21:20:07 <ihope> With two support, I intend to slap augur.
21:20:24 <tusho> Teh Cltohed Mna supports.
21:20:34 <ihope> Tec Cltohed Mna can't support.
21:20:38 <augur> only oklopol gets to slap me.
21:20:41 <oklopol> ihope: just do "tripart | head rest" -> "tripart <doubledigits> <carry> head <add> | rest", roughly
21:20:46 <tusho> ihope: Yes he can.
21:20:50 <oklopol> and iterate until "head rest" = ""
21:20:51 <tusho> This is #esotericgora
21:21:05 <ihope> You mean #esoteragora.
21:21:16 <oklopol> <> are rpn function turtles that do the operation to what's to the left of them
21:21:36 <oklopol> <add> is just <inc> or <nop> depending on the binary digit in question
21:21:48 <ihope> That can't be right. It's too easy.
21:22:06 <oklopol> thue can be used pretty modularly
21:22:37 <oklopol> you have to do quite a bit of tricks, so don't expect it to take less than an hour
21:22:50 <ihope> Hmm, that works pretty nicely.
21:22:54 <oklopol> trinary | binary, and start with "" | "binpart"
21:22:59 <ihope> I'm trying to do it differently, though.
21:23:11 <ihope> Carrying all your state with you, rather than spitting it out behind you.
21:23:33 <oklopol> well i like my solution in that it doesn't force determinism
21:23:50 <oklopol> but yeah, that's basically the same, i just wanted something easily explainable
21:24:24 <oklopol> damn i hate it when there's something i'm supposed to do, i can't do anything fun, but i won't do the boring thing i have to do anyway
21:24:36 * ihope walks across the Michigan border, then gets charged for littering by discarding Michigan rather than disposing of it in the proper receptacles
21:25:00 <ihope> Indeed, that's how it goes.
21:26:23 <oklopol> ihope: also, "tripart | head rest" -> "head | tripart <doubledigits> <carry> head <add> | rest" it's just about not losing your head
21:26:27 <ihope> The ratio of each Fibonacci number to the preceding one approaches phi as the Fibonacci numbers approach infinity. 1 + phi = phi^2.
21:26:37 <ihope> And phi = (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
21:26:42 <oklopol> i don't see fibs in the sequence
21:27:00 <ihope> The abbababbabbababbababbabbababbabbabab sequence?
21:27:17 * ihope runs that through a text-to-speech
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21:28:03 <ihope> a represents 1, b represents phi. When everything is multiplied by phi (> or < passes through), 1 becomes phi (a becomes b) and phi becomes phi^2 = 1 + phi (b becomes ab).
21:28:46 <ihope> Hmm, this might be able to represent arbitrary algebraic integers...
21:29:08 <tusho> augur: what ahppened
21:29:33 <oklopol> ihope: and you start with ab?
21:31:28 <tusho> what did you change augur
21:31:40 <augur> the drawing mechanism. i abstracted out a drawing function.
21:31:56 <augur> it makes the drawing correct every time.
21:32:06 <ihope> >a::=b>, >b::=ab>, actually, and the same when the pointer's moving in the other direction, with reversers on each side.
21:32:10 <augur> unlike before, with the error on the 6+nth iteration
21:32:31 <oklopol> i was on a conceptually higher level
21:33:49 <ihope> Hmm. This corresponds to the equations a = k*b, b = k*(a+b), I think...
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22:25:22 <augur> check it out now :D
22:33:09 * SimonRC realises that "Funk's Yo' Brother" may not be well known in ForeignLand
22:33:51 -!- RedDak has joined.
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22:35:25 <olsner> "funk's yo' brother"? to me it's always sounded more like "my funk's so brava", where I assumed "brava" was some slang I just didn't know
22:35:31 <oklopol> i don't know stuff that's known in XLand for any value of X.
22:36:01 <olsner> if you're referring to the line of that song, whatever song it is
22:36:39 <olsner> you probably know better than me though :)
22:37:07 <SimonRC> "The Funk Soul Brother, Check It Out Now
22:37:08 <SimonRC> The Funk Soul Brother, Right About Now"
22:37:30 <olsner> the funk soul brother? that makes no sense
22:37:36 <oklopol> imo says it pretty clearly
22:38:33 <oklopol> SimonRC: anyway, i'll go with cheese
22:40:34 <oklopol> heh, this is probably the most boring song ever.
22:41:25 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFfBr_u5nw0
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22:52:27 <ihope> My. There's a sound file in a web page, I click play, it plays about 1/5 of the way through, then it stops, and about 10 seconds later, it starts back up again, but now it's 4/5 of the way through.
22:53:51 <tusho> centered one is still bugged
22:53:53 <tusho> some lines are shaded out
22:54:15 <tusho> the first,second,third,fifth,sixth
22:54:25 <augur> oh, no, theyre just blurry
22:54:39 <tusho> augur: will you do my idea now
22:54:42 <tusho> since I bet that was harder
22:54:48 <augur> its too hard to do your idea.
22:54:56 <tusho> i'll even write it out in pseudocode if you want
22:55:04 <tusho> if i do that will you do it
22:55:04 <ihope> So, a = k*b and b = k*(a + b).
22:55:08 <augur> i dont even remember your idea :D
22:55:37 <ihope> Then k = a/b = 1/phi.
22:56:19 <ihope> Then we just need to differentiate something.
22:56:32 <augur> oklopol, the vertical versions actually let you see some of the fractal nature
22:56:47 <tusho> augur: but mine would too
22:56:55 <tusho> pseudocode and you do it
22:58:35 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/alphabeticalseesay.xhtml
22:58:48 <tusho> augur: one letter is one pixel, right?
22:59:10 <tusho> The previous generation is P.
22:59:10 <tusho> The just-calculated generation is G.
22:59:11 <tusho> Find the first occurance of C in G. The position at which it is found is Z.
22:59:11 <tusho> Put G at Z pixels in from the start of P.
22:59:13 <tusho> (This could also be done reversed or whatever.)
23:00:29 <augur> you mean g pixels to the left of the start of p.
23:01:19 <augur> tusho, i want you to draw this out visually so you can see what its going to do
23:01:25 <augur> because i dont think itll do what you think itll do
23:01:33 <tusho> you mean g pixels to the left of the start of p.
23:01:54 <augur> well then you're not showing the fractal nature.
23:02:07 <tusho> do it g pixels to the left of the start of p
23:02:18 <tusho> so I don't know how you can have "g pixels"
23:02:46 <tusho> augur: C is a character
23:02:52 <augur> i cant stand your pseudocode, it sucks.
23:02:53 <tusho> z pixels in left of the start of p
23:02:55 <tusho> that's what I meant
23:04:27 <augur> no i think what would show the fractal nature even better is if each time i expand a letter, inside an expansion of itself, i darken the sub expansion
23:04:47 <augur> but let me figure out how im going to do that because itll be tricky
23:07:13 <augur> this is gonna involve a significant change. i hate you. >.<
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23:21:52 <tusho> how's it going augur
23:22:26 * ihope ponders what you're supposed to differentiate in a = k*b, b = k*(a + b), k = a/b = 1/phi
23:22:51 <ihope> You want a/b = 1/phi to be a stable equilibrium, so it's kind of the derivative of a/b with respect to a/b.
23:23:04 <ihope> Except it's the derivative of the a/b on the right with respect to the a/b on the left.
23:24:06 <ihope> Or is it the other way around?
23:24:35 * oerjan wonders what the problem is since there is no derivation mentioned that he can see
23:25:48 <tusho> problemtive awesome
23:26:00 * oerjan slaps oklopol with a troutive
23:27:08 <oerjan> a = k*b, b = k*(a + b) implies b = k*(k*b + b) or k*k + k = 1
23:28:35 <tusho> what is this awful MATHEMATICS doing in #esoteric
23:28:50 <tusho> augur: HOWISITGOINGNOW
23:29:04 <oklopol> oerjan: that was weirdly put
23:29:21 <oklopol> you could say b = 0 or k^2 + k - 1 = 0
23:29:59 <oerjan> the "or" really means, "so"
23:30:08 <tusho> what colour should my links be
23:30:28 <tusho> oerjan: i think css3 has something for that
23:30:37 <tusho> but if it does it certainly isn't implemented by anything
23:30:45 <augur> dont make me rape you tusho
23:30:48 <tusho> [that there was a Web Designer Joke]
23:30:50 <tusho> [they're very bad.]
23:32:14 <oerjan> i assume k = 1/phi is one of the solutions to k^2 + k - 1 = 0, cannot be bothered to check
23:33:01 <oerjan> ihope: in any case, i don't see any need for differentiating
23:33:01 <tusho> so anyone have any real, solid, distinct colours representable by six hex digits?
23:33:07 <tusho> as interpreted as rgb values.
23:34:41 <tusho> and 007700 = a rather bland green
23:34:45 <ihope> oerjan: well, every step, f(B) becomes f(A) and f(A) + f(B) becomes f(B).
23:34:49 <oerjan> ah you mean not polkadot
23:35:00 <tusho> oerjan: Links can only be one colour. :P
23:35:07 <ihope> Then the idea is to show that B/A = phi is a stable equilibrium.
23:35:09 <tusho> I could do some kind of horrific JS hack
23:35:14 <oerjan> ihope: um so = is _assignment_?
23:36:02 <ihope> oerjan: pretend I never said anything except my last two messages.
23:36:19 <oerjan> ihope: i see. this is a property of matrices with positive entries
23:36:42 <oerjan> they have a unique positive eigenvalue with eigenvector (up to scale)
23:36:55 <ihope> What's this one? [[1,1][0,1]]^n?
23:37:25 * oerjan doesn't remember the name of the theorem
23:37:51 <oerjan> however, solving for eigenvectors and changing base is one way i think
23:38:31 <oerjan> some M^n should have strictly positive entries
23:38:52 <oerjan> although M itself can have zeroes
23:39:05 <ihope> Hmm. Square it and you get [[1,2][0,1]], multiply that by the original and you get [[1,3][0,1]]... something like that.
23:39:27 <oerjan> ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perron%E2%80%93Frobenius_theorem
23:39:52 <oerjan> oh right it's triangular
23:40:14 <oerjan> that messes it up, the zero never disappears
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23:41:06 <oerjan> oh there is a version for matrices with zeros later
23:42:03 <tusho> oerjan: what do you think about #4444AA, then?
23:45:49 <oerjan> er, bright is not the right word
23:47:16 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:47:33 <tusho> oerjan: http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08266/picture5214.png
23:47:43 <tusho> (ignore the rather odd filler text)
23:48:40 <tusho> (i intend to write something about the Universal Edit Button which explains the title/subtitle, then I just started writing crap to fill up)
23:48:49 <tusho> (better than lorem ipsum)
23:49:22 <oerjan> you know that is not far from my default link color i think
23:50:31 <oklopol> a bit brighter than my default
23:51:04 <oklopol> well, not sure what the exact difference is, all i know is yours looks happier.
23:51:25 <oerjan> (noting that i never have changed the default. i do like blue after all.)
23:52:10 <tusho> isn't the default pure blue?
23:52:36 <tusho> if so, isn't it a bit darker?
23:53:05 <oklopol> tusho: happier. all i know.
23:53:13 <tusho> oklopol: and more subtle, right
23:53:21 <tusho> flows better with the text?
23:54:00 * SimonRC would recommend leaving it to the web browser.
23:54:13 <SimonRC> assuming you are keeping that black-on-white look
23:54:18 <tusho> SimonRC: #0000FF is horrible
23:54:26 <tusho> it doesn't flow with text properly at all
23:54:31 <tusho> and is way too harhs
23:54:47 <tusho> also, browser's typography generally sucks hard and makes stuff hard to read
23:54:50 <tusho> so I overrid a lot of that too
23:55:19 <tusho> and it's not a "black-on-white" look really, just a whitespace-driven look
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23:58:28 <oerjan> augur: incidentally you probably can use the Perron-Frobenius theorem to calculate the limit letter frequencies of your alphabetical look-and-say sequence
23:58:51 <oerjan> the one i pointed ihope to for his problem
23:59:28 <oerjan> it works for all sorts of substitution-like things