00:00:17 <tusho> oerjan: does it work for any thue program?
00:00:45 <oerjan> well _simultaneous_ substitutions
00:00:53 <oerjan> every letter to some word
00:01:29 <oerjan> also, the atoms in Conway's numerical look-and-say can be handled this way too
00:01:46 <oerjan> to get frequencies and the "cosmological constant"
00:02:37 <tusho> 123456789 111213141516171819 31121113111411151116111711181119
00:04:18 <oerjan> er, "Conway's constant"
00:04:33 <pikhq> Conway's constant?!?
00:05:02 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_and_say_sequence
00:05:35 <tusho> 22 22 22 22 22 22 22
00:05:50 <tusho> # No digits other than 1, 2, and 3 ever appear in the sequence, unless the seed number contains such a digit or a run of more than three of the same digit.
00:06:13 <oerjan> that's the constant for the limit of growth, which is also the eigenvalue from the PF sequence
00:06:28 <tusho> oklopol: thoroughly
00:06:46 <oerjan> no it is _not_ trivial
00:06:47 <tusho> "This sequence is also referred to as containing Langford numbers." <-- are they like langford basilisks? :P
00:06:53 <tusho> oerjan: ok, well it sounded it
00:07:06 <oerjan> i had to correct someone on the talk page for that once
00:07:21 <oerjan> well it is _nearly_ trivial, but not quite
00:07:27 <oklopol> tusho is even worse a trivializer than i am
00:07:55 <oerjan> the point is that you could imagine getting there after several iterations
00:07:56 <tusho> whoa, it's the first section on the talk page
00:09:32 <tusho> 1111111111 101 111011 311021 1321101211 1113122110111221
00:09:34 <tusho> look and say is fun
00:09:57 <oklopol> is 10 base carrying an official part of it btw?
00:10:36 <oerjan> oklopol: sort of. all bases >= 4 behave nearly identical after the first few steps
00:10:42 <tusho> what about bases < 4?
00:11:02 <oerjan> they are somewhat different, i found
00:11:30 <oerjan> you don't get digit 3 popping up
00:11:50 <tusho> oerjan: unary look and say is boring
00:11:57 <tusho> 1 11 1111 11111111
00:12:39 <tusho> because 11 is '11' 1s
00:12:41 <oklopol> isn't unary carry N -> 1(N-1)?
00:13:04 <oerjan> even more boring. yay!
00:13:46 <oerjan> i _think_ Conway did all bases in the original paper but i haven't checked
00:14:22 <tusho> 111021101221101221
00:14:30 <tusho> not that interesting, yeah.
00:14:51 <oklopol> tusho: forgot the unary carry.
00:15:04 <tusho> I was doing base 2 there
00:15:41 <oklopol> it's not the same as unary
00:16:02 <tusho> if we consider '0's eyeballs, it kind of grows a new eyeball every now and then
00:16:43 <oerjan> i expect the base 2 and 3 cases to have similar theorems as the >= 4 ones, just different
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00:17:17 <oerjan> i don't recall if i thought it through all the way when pondering it
00:17:33 <tusho> oerjan: what about odd bases
00:17:36 <tusho> like base i and stuff
00:17:41 <oerjan> also, one more variation: you could say the digit _first_, then the number of digits
00:17:50 <oklopol> tusho: you don't get any i's there
00:18:09 <edwardk> haven't wandered over this way in a while, thought I'd swing by =)
00:18:19 <oerjan> tusho: you could of course generalize completely and code each length as an arbitrary word
00:18:28 <oklopol> oerjan: that's only different if you have carry
00:18:58 <oklopol> edwardk: what's the news on your uncomputable superlanguage?
00:19:06 <oerjan> i mean an arbitrary function from lengths to strings
00:19:13 <oklopol> did you add another construct only oerjan can understand?
00:20:11 <tusho> oerjan: i still like the idea of a base -2i look and say
00:20:29 <edwardk> oklopol: heh, well, hrmm. i don't remember if we talked about nuel or kata
00:20:38 <edwardk> if it was nuel i shelved it pretty much completely
00:20:41 <tusho> oerjan: i don't know base -2i
00:20:55 <edwardk> if it was kata i'm hacking away quite furiously ;)
00:21:23 <edwardk> oklopol: kata = nuel without types, but i temporarily cut the theorem proving bits while i work on the main language
00:21:56 <edwardk> otoh, i still get some of the benefits because i can check a lot of the pattern matching at compile time
00:22:12 <oerjan> i vaguely recall thinking something like, if the strings representing lengths don't grow more than logarithmically (as -2i also wouldn't) then there will be a bound on what digits eventually appear
00:22:22 <edwardk> oklopol: and yeah there are plenty of oerjanly constructs in it ;)
00:22:49 <tusho> edwardk: is it oklo though
00:22:55 <tusho> and is it o and oko
00:22:58 <tusho> if not, oklopol doesn't want to know
00:23:04 <tusho> especially if it's easy to use
00:23:39 <edwardk> heh, well it does have a built-in sugar for working with comonads, and you have to do IO using the codensity monad of a free monad of IO actions, so its definitely esoteric ;)
00:23:43 <tusho> (and by 'oklopol' we are referring to the collective pronoun of 'the disciples of the oko religion')
00:23:56 <tusho> oklopol: here, let's demonstrate our faith to the oko
00:24:45 <oklopol> but i'm afraid i still lack some crucial theory when it comes to category theory.
00:24:57 <tusho> oklopol: IT'S OKO TOWER TIME DAMNIT
00:25:11 <edwardk> oklopol: heh i've blogged a ton of category theory bits on the topic over the last few months
00:25:14 <tusho> that was a lame tower
00:25:33 <tusho> let's do it properly
00:25:57 <oklopol> (i know i was gonna switch to linux, but you know, i'm lazy.)
00:26:17 * oerjan wonders how oklofok and oklokok differ from oklopol, grammatically
00:26:32 <oerjan> they are obviously closely related
00:26:53 <oerjan> oklopol: in the context of <tusho> (and by 'oklopol' we are referring to the collective pronoun of 'the disciples of the oko religion')
00:27:01 <tusho> they're obvciously lmlads
00:27:23 <tusho> oerjan: ah, oklofok refers to the innate oko _nature_ all oklopol have within us
00:27:35 <tusho> that is, it still refers to the disciples, but shifted to refer to the innate oko nature of them
00:27:39 <tusho> (which is themself)
00:27:59 <tusho> oklokok is the same, but with the string of anti-oko instead of the innate oko nature
00:28:04 <tusho> (of course, oko is defined by the string of anti-oko)
00:28:52 * tusho scared off edwardk
00:29:05 <tusho> are you prejudiced against our religion edwardk?!~?~?~?~?~?!~!@
00:29:05 <oerjan> ah it all makes sense now. if i don't think too hard, anyway.
00:29:43 <oklopol> i'm sure he was a little scared on by that, rather
00:29:47 <edwardk> was sitting here trying to figure out how to merge a couple of ways to thinking about coroutines and if i'd get any benefit out of thw windows fiber api
00:29:49 * oerjan didn't know about the anti-oko before
00:29:53 <tusho> oerjan: it's kind of like zen except we mock zen for being stupid
00:29:58 <augur> ill be back in an hour
00:30:04 <augur> dont worry, im close to being finished :p
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00:31:02 <oerjan> windows has fibers? it appears to be more advanced than i previously had been aware
00:31:27 <edwardk> oerjan: yeah actually they've got arguably a better fiber api than the posix makecontext/swapcontext crap
00:31:57 <edwardk> its not all that complicated to use either, sql server runs on top of it
00:32:19 * oerjan of course is assuming fiber has the usual mathematical meaning, since he doesn't even know the compsci one. just so you're warned.
00:32:44 <edwardk> a fiber is a lightweight cooperative thread
00:32:56 <edwardk> you swap fibers cooperatively, its like switching stacks
00:34:28 <edwardk> basically since kata is pretty much designed to be more or less bare metal speed where it can for a language with so little type info, permitting fibers and async io as a useful default practice would drive the right behavior in the APIs
00:34:54 <edwardk> most languages just kinda throw a thin veneer over the basic blocking posix crap and call it a day
00:35:21 <edwardk> er designed to be as close to bare metal speed
00:36:47 <edwardk> basically trying to figure out how to hand around fibers in a type-safe manner at the moment or if i shouldn't bother to add them to my cognitive overhead
00:37:22 <edwardk> one can argue that they add no value if the rest of your language is designed right
00:38:27 <tusho> edwardk: We like kittens.
00:39:28 <oerjan> no! evil subversive monster felines!
00:40:10 <edwardk> oklopol: http://comonad.com/reader/2008/kan-extensions/ explains the codensity stuff i mentioned earlier, but if you don't do haskell it might cause your brain to segfault
00:43:35 <oklopol> i don't do haskell, i just know some of it.
00:43:51 <oerjan> for an example of their evil, see from the bottom of http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=9816
00:48:38 <tusho> oerjan: I liked tha
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01:36:44 <augur> tusho: its hard to see the fractals :(
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04:50:07 <Slereah_> Man it's hard to find a good version of Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye.
04:50:19 <Slereah_> Either it's sung mediocrely, or it's incomplete.
04:50:41 <Slereah_> I found one that almost was perfect, but the last verse is missing.
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06:00:19 <augur> OH DOCTOR WHOOOOOO ARE YOU
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08:49:10 <Slereah_> Well, better than Gregor Dead, I suppose.
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09:34:32 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hello, my new version (0.1.0) is finished :-) it produces smaller BF code http://paste.pocoo.org/show/78109/
10:08:15 <oklopol> "Hello World" is saved as "[H][E][L][O][W][R][D]" what?
10:14:18 <oklopol> well i have no idea what you meant by that
10:15:08 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you can type "hello world" or you can type H = 1 e = 2 l = 3 o = 4 --> 12334 --> hello
10:20:44 <oklopol> okay, what's the algo, i can't really get that just by reading.
10:21:31 <oklopol> first of all, it's a function from texts to brainfuck codes that output that text?
10:23:39 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i calculate the BF equivalent of the character an save it in my dictionary
10:24:05 <oklopol> and you just stack those one after another in a string?
10:24:24 <KingOfKarlsruhe> if the character in the dictionary: goto position else: save it on the end of the dictionary
10:24:53 <oklopol> so if that char is output twice, it rewinds to last use?
10:25:27 <oklopol> so it nubs the whole string on the tape
10:26:16 <KingOfKarlsruhe> yes on the tape i have [H][E][L][O][W][R][D] and i use the ">", "<" to print the rest
10:26:23 <oklopol> okay, that was how i assumed it worked
10:26:33 <oklopol> now, that's very inefficient
10:27:59 <oklopol> what you want to do is create as little "base characters" as possible, and when printing char X, navigate to closest char in ascii value, make it X, and output
10:35:52 <KingOfKarlsruhe> heheh my next version produce smaller code than this version :)
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10:50:46 <oklopol> i should make a bf generation program
10:50:59 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: let's compete
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11:15:54 <oklopol> ++++++++++[->+++>++++>+++++++>++++++++++<<<<]++.+.+++++++..+++.++++.++.++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.+.
11:25:46 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]---.----.+++++++..+++.-.++.-..+++.------.--------.+.
11:26:04 <oklopol> i could just have read it and realized i don't have the <>'s
11:26:58 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]<<<---.<----.+++++++..+++.>>-.>++.<<<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>>>+.
11:27:28 <oklopol> perhaps i have to write a bf
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11:35:01 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++[->++>+++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<]>>>---.>----.+++++++..+++.<<-.<++.>>>>-.<.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
11:35:32 <oklopol> can someone run egobot or something?
11:36:29 <oklopol> +++++++++++++++++[->+>++>++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<]>>>++++.>-.+++++++..+++.<<--.>>>.<.+++.------.--------.<<+.<-------. is "Hello world!"
11:36:38 <oklopol> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.-
11:37:24 <oklopol> perhaps i'll try adding some heuristic
11:40:41 <oklopol> actually, nm, don't really feel like it
11:41:21 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: can i see some of your results so i can try to beat your original naive one?
11:43:31 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p433226444.txt
11:44:09 <oklopol> there's the a trivial heuristic of not letting base values grow too near each other.
11:44:15 <oklopol> but i didn't even make that one
11:48:33 <oklopol> That's brainfuck in mine: +++++++++++++++++[->++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<]>>>-.>++.-------.>---.<<<<+++++.>>>>-.<<<<-------.>--.>>>-.<.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.
11:48:38 <KingOfKarlsruhe> output : Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia
11:51:58 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p122223663.txt
11:52:37 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you calculate from all letters the middle-value and then you add ' - ' or '+'
11:53:03 <oklopol> middle-value? average you mean?
11:53:29 <oklopol> well, tusho calls okopython, i write it a bit differently from others
11:55:13 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i feel so bad ^^ i worked 3 days on my solution and your code is smaller and better wahhhh
11:55:56 <oklopol> on this channel, the older you are, the more you get owned, it seems
11:56:25 <oklopol> but really i've coded so much python i don't really have to give it any thought
11:56:54 <oklopol> i don't really decide on an algo, i just open a text file and wait for about an hour for the code to be ready
11:57:05 <oklopol> it's python that does all the work
11:57:55 <oklopol> i'm a bit of a python-enthusiast
11:58:37 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oklopol: i am new on coding ... my first code was at December 07
11:59:09 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: anyway, i separated basemultiplier + basenumbers -> code, and then just iterated through possible basemultipliers and found the heuristically best list of basenumbers
11:59:19 <oklopol> and checked what produces the shortest code
12:00:16 <oklopol> well it's been used before, i didn't really invent it
12:00:29 <oklopol> although i'm 90% sure i'd've invented it if i hadn't seen it
12:01:57 <oklopol> algorithm is the correct form btw
12:03:42 <oklopol> but with my way to create the actual output from the base list, i don't get the results of wikipedia even with the base list they use
12:03:45 <KingOfKarlsruhe> you have a char like "C" then you so ord() so you habe the char-value... then you have 67 and do 67 * '+'.. then you divide it for the best factors
12:04:19 <oklopol> to get the base number for a certain base number
12:04:27 <oklopol> to get the base numbers for a certain base multiplier
12:04:50 <oklopol> c.add(int(round(float(ord(i))/b)))
12:04:54 <oklopol> this finds the base numbers
12:05:02 <oklopol> nnscript fucks up the indentation
12:06:09 <oklopol> [72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 44, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33]
12:06:16 <oklopol> this is the map(ord,...) for it
12:06:46 <oklopol> it would create the sorted set set([30,40,70,100])
12:06:54 <oklopol> set([30,40,70,100,110]), actually
12:07:14 <oklopol> for base 100, it would create set([0,100])
12:08:12 <oklopol> for base 17, there'd be 34 for the value 33, and 51 for 44, etx
12:09:16 <oklopol> for each character in the string to be generated, it takes the closest integer multiple of the basemultiplier
12:10:39 <oklopol> so sorted(set([int(round(float(i)/base)) for i in s]))
12:11:07 <oklopol> base is the base multiplier
12:11:36 <oklopol> also it generates the list of numbers before multiplying with the base number, not the actual multiplied numbers
12:11:53 <oklopol> i try all base multipliers
12:12:00 <oklopol> and check which produces shortest code
12:12:11 <oklopol> return least(len,[txt2bf_(s,b,findc(s,b)) for b in xrange(3,40)])[1]
12:12:18 <oklopol> the xrange is the base numbers i try
12:13:55 <oklopol> anyway, i'd prolly have done all this genetically, but as EgoBot already has such a bfgen, i couldnt
12:14:27 <oklopol> i usually go for genetics, and let things sort themselves out
12:15:49 <oklopol> oh btw, don't use the bf, it doesn't actually work for anything but this
12:16:20 <oklopol> didn't wanna type the 50 more characters, too much work-o
12:19:49 <KingOfKarlsruhe> this code i much higher than my brain... i learn very much from your solution.. thanks
12:20:08 <oklopol> hey, i couldn't read yours either :P
12:20:34 <oklopol> i need declarative explanations for functions
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13:39:11 <oklopol> guess a few, take the best, guess a few close to the good ones, iterate
13:40:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, do you use some automated software to do this?
13:40:48 <AnMaster> iirc there are frameworks for genetic programmin
13:40:50 <oklopol> well whatever you mean, i use python
13:40:58 <oklopol> well sure, but i usually write the 5 lines myself
13:41:38 <oklopol> it doesn't have sets without importing a module, that's an instantsetback
13:41:50 <oklopol> *instant setback, although still a weird word choice
13:42:08 <oklopol> it doesn't have lists at all, that really renders it completely useless for fun programming
13:42:31 <AnMaster> anyway you got hashes by libraries
13:43:34 <oklopol> i assumed you meant a hash value
13:43:43 <oklopol> sure you do get those from libs
13:43:49 <AnMaster> also you can write faster programs in C than in any interpreted language
13:44:13 <oklopol> i don't like downloading libs
13:44:23 <oklopol> anyway, i have time to wait for my slow programs to finish
13:44:39 <oklopol> doesn't really matter to me whether it's a microsecond or a millisecond
13:44:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, when python can be compiled to native machine code I may change opinion
13:45:10 <oklopol> i simply can't tell the difference
13:45:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, the day python can be used to write a kernel...
13:55:19 <oklopol> kernels aren't all that interesting
13:56:04 <oklopol> anyway, i've done tons of C/C++
13:56:33 <oklopol> but nowadays i just prefer to do my daily coding in non-esolangs
13:58:48 <oklopol> and before you can answer my malicious joke
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15:46:16 <Slereah_> Heh. I think I saw sum phishing :D
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17:42:36 <tusho> 03:55:56 <oklopol> on this channel, the older you are, the more you get owned, it seems
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17:43:32 <tusho> KingOfKarlsruhe: and yeah, oklopol's code often does tons of crazy stuff in a tiny amount of space
17:43:59 <tusho> i mean, the last function there is even a BF interpreter
17:44:04 <tusho> although it only handles one set of nested brackets
17:44:07 <tusho> so it's not turing complete
17:45:25 <tusho> 05:45:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, the day python can be used to write a kernel...
17:45:30 <tusho> is the day when you can use python to write a kernel
17:48:39 <AnMaster> is the day I will use python maybe
17:48:56 <KingOfKarlsruhe> tusho: oklopol geniality is aweosome ! i need 3 hours to understand _what_ this code do
17:49:17 <AnMaster> btw anyone know a good non-intrusive cd player for linux? console
17:49:45 <tusho> AnMaster: why does every language have to be able to be usable for kernel writing to use it?
17:49:48 <AnMaster> I can't do the normal for file in *.ogg; do ogg123 "$file"; done
17:50:01 <tusho> why does that matter if you're not writing a kernel?
17:50:18 <tusho> AnMaster: bash can't write a kernel
17:50:33 * AnMaster ponders making a bash -> C compiler
17:50:48 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, hm can it play CDs?
17:51:02 <tusho> AnMaster: what do you think of my blog design http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08266/picture5214.png
17:51:11 <tusho> (warning: picture is drunk on design simplicity)
17:51:17 <tusho> (and meaningless filler text)
17:51:48 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe a small title (<h1>) at the top?
17:52:07 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: congrats if you get it, not many have even tried to read my code.
17:52:27 <tusho> AnMaster: considered it, not sure if it's really necessary though, the little introductory paragraph is pretty simple and explicit
17:52:31 <tusho> plus what would I put there?
17:52:35 <tusho> <h1>tusho.org</h1>?
17:52:38 <tusho> because that's self-evident
17:52:45 <AnMaster> tusho, oh if you got no better name...
17:52:59 <tusho> well, i'd like to call it copenhagen because that's a nice name
17:53:03 <tusho> but copenhagen.org is obviously taken
17:53:26 <tusho> and points to a site much uglier than mine may I add
17:55:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i wish I could control the spacing of sentences through css
17:55:27 <tusho> i'd like to make the space a bit wider
17:55:35 <tusho> and I certainly don't want to do that's just hideous
17:55:43 <tusho> alas, that would be css meddling with i18n
17:55:45 <tusho> to define 'sentence'
17:55:47 <tusho> so it won't happen
17:56:05 <AnMaster> tusho, if you want typesetting try LaTeX
17:56:13 <AnMaster> also sure you can't do it in CSS?
17:56:24 <tusho> it isn't much of a problem though
17:56:33 <tusho> since I'm used to reading sentences seperated by one space
17:56:47 <tusho> (certainly, two spaces is just as silly as one. It's not about how many spaces there are, it's about the actual spacing.)
18:00:29 <tusho> AnMaster: http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08260/picture6487.png here's what it looks like without css
18:00:38 <tusho> (note, I added the '3.0' to the license and removed subtitles just now, so that's not due to css being off)
18:00:55 <AnMaster> tusho, why are the titles links?
18:01:01 <tusho> AnMaster: links to the entries
18:01:05 <AnMaster> that bit look a bit uggly, but apart from that: nice
18:01:19 <tusho> it's quite common to click on a title to get to a post page
18:01:28 <tusho> of course, the blueness isn't that appealing, so it's styled away
18:01:34 <tusho> i think wordpress was the first one to link the titles
18:01:37 <tusho> but it's quite common now
18:01:41 <tusho> and anyway I click titles all the time
18:02:03 <tusho> oh, and it rocks in lynx/elinks/w3m
18:26:28 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, yay cplay can do it
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19:56:05 <augur> heyo. hows it goin? :D
19:56:40 <augur> omg tusho did you see doctor who last night?!
19:57:24 <augur> watching television is the most lazy thing you can do
19:57:48 <augur> coding requires that you type
19:58:07 <augur> holy fucking shit it was crazy
19:58:15 <tusho> wow, I just kind of transfer my glob into the text file
19:58:35 <augur> i'd transfer your glob if you know what i mean
19:59:28 <augur> (read that in the voice of ainsley harriot)
19:59:58 <augur> lament, did YOU watch doctor who?
20:01:05 <augur> you can't spell "lament" without "lame"
20:01:22 <augur> BOTH OF YOU GO WATCH IT RIGHT NOW
20:13:29 <AnMaster> there is no doctor who on any of the tv channels I got here in Sweden
20:14:08 <augur> surfthechannel.com
20:14:12 <augur> its all the TV i need :P
20:16:51 <tusho> AnMaster: tell me a good way to distribute streamed video content that works cross-browser and cross-platform
20:17:12 <AnMaster> tusho, can't you stream ogg-theora?
20:17:24 <tusho> AnMaster: cross-browser and cross-platform
20:17:33 <tusho> and something that people actually have installed
20:17:42 <tusho> AnMaster: because they can't allow downloads easily
20:17:46 <tusho> they have to go through barriers
20:17:51 <tusho> to stay legal (if that site even is legal)
20:17:54 <tusho> (if it's not, then meh)
20:17:58 <tusho> (a web interface is convenient)
20:18:16 <tusho> but legality requires putting up Big Pointless Barriers
20:20:27 <AnMaster> http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/
20:20:55 <augur> arrakis is in estonia?
20:21:04 <tusho> AnMaster: that's not the point
20:21:23 <tusho> legal content distributors, by law, are mostly only allowed to be legal by the bigcorps if they put up some barriers to download
20:21:23 <augur> arrakis is a planet
20:21:26 <AnMaster> augur, I just checked the homepage url of the ebuild
20:21:32 <tusho> so that Average Joe or Slightly More Than Average Joe can't download them
20:21:35 <augur> way to show your scifi ignorane
20:22:31 <augur> BUT I STILL KNOW WHAT ARRAKIS IS
20:22:40 <augur> because im not LAME like YOU
20:24:34 <tusho> hi deewiant, you're yellow
20:24:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is TURT hard to implement?
20:25:01 <AnMaster> your code seems rather complex
20:25:05 <Deewiant> you might have to think about it a bit though
20:25:51 <Deewiant> but yeah, because there's the thing about when to draw and when not to
20:26:12 <Deewiant> can't remember all the commands but I remember getting something wrong a few times :-P
20:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does mycology test it well or?
20:26:43 <AnMaster> well what does test it well then?
20:27:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you got to have wrote your own test programs?
20:27:04 <Deewiant> haven't run into any TURT programs :-P
20:27:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well how do you know you got them wrong then?
20:27:24 <Deewiant> trust me, it was hard enough to finish that ;-)
20:27:43 <Deewiant> I can reason about programs without having to run them :-P
20:27:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well what about that TURT quine?
20:28:20 <Deewiant> news to me, or I've forgotten it
20:28:33 <tusho> http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tquine.php
20:28:54 <tusho> that domain is available at http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/
20:29:12 <Deewiant> and the thing with befunge programs on the net is that you have to read them through and think about it to know whether it's correct, you can't trust implementations :-P
20:29:22 <tusho> {# Wondering what the deal is with the domain name? Head over to my befunge pages to find out.}
20:29:32 <tusho> is on the crazy one
20:29:41 <tusho> and 'Out of cheese?', linking to phlamethrower on the crzy one,
20:29:47 <tusho> changes to 'Got egnufeB?'
20:29:49 <tusho> linking to the crazy one
20:30:05 <AnMaster> tusho, why "out of cheese" though
20:34:07 <tusho> cool, my stylesheet fits in ten lines
20:34:56 <Deewiant> you ran it through CSSTidy? :-P
20:35:32 <Deewiant> ah no, that puts everything on one line
20:37:23 <tusho> Deewiant: well, a tidier
20:37:26 <tusho> but it's still pretty readable
20:37:32 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058380
20:38:37 <tusho> Deewiant: i'd organize it a bit different
20:38:40 <Deewiant> actually I think CSSTidy is fairly configurable, that's just max compression
20:38:40 <tusho> but that's pretty nice
20:39:16 <Deewiant> and well, that can't be compressed any more without removing a few spaces and line breaks :-)
20:39:40 <tusho> Deewiant: yes, I was commenting rather on its simplicity
20:39:47 <tusho> as it's still readable like that
21:00:07 <SimonRC> also, oerjan made me start reading another webcomic, damn him
21:04:27 -!- tusho has set topic: THISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICDONOTREADTHESIGNONTHEBUSTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLICTHISTOPICISNOTCYCLIC.
21:05:21 -!- SimonRC has set topic: NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP.
21:05:36 <SimonRC> in honour of an old ELER strip
21:05:41 -!- tusho has set topic: overflowdisabledreadaboutitsothatitwillbeacyclicloop.
21:05:47 <tusho> SimonRC: ha, i thought of that strip
21:05:51 <tusho> then i was like 'nahh.. nobody reads eler'
21:06:11 <tusho> lord, it still hasn't been updated
21:06:31 <SimonRC> also, I found the world's best communication protocol: the port jump
21:06:59 <SimonRC> read word from memory-mapped port; don't increment IP, execute, repeat
21:08:35 <SimonRC> SEAforth chips have this capability
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21:12:39 <tusho> but isn't that a bit insecure
21:13:20 <SimonRC> you may as well worry about your RAM comspiring against your processor
21:13:27 <tusho> i have nightmares about it
21:19:27 <SimonRC> even better, the code for "n times: [ read port, write port ]" fits in one instruction word
21:19:48 <tusho> SimonRC: kigforth goes how
21:20:44 <SimonRC> tusho: haven't touched it for months
21:21:12 <SimonRC> (... such techniques are used to initially load the programs into the 24 processors)
21:21:17 <tusho> SimonRC: you should
21:27:54 <SimonRC> whoa, that chip I was talking about...
21:28:09 <SimonRC> all 24 processors fit into an 8*8mm chip
21:29:08 <SimonRC> Alas they have so little memory
21:30:20 <tusho> SimonRC: i wonder what a decent functional-ly forth with some oop stuff would look like
21:30:24 <tusho> either lovely or horrible i guess
21:31:05 <SimonRC> they have irc on this net at #concatenative
21:31:21 <tusho> i know about factor
21:31:25 <tusho> but it's kind of not what I was thinking of
21:32:29 <SimonRC> Forth tries to be close to the machine and powerful rather than abstract and powerful.
21:33:20 <tusho> i'm thinking kind of like forth blended with joy
21:33:26 <tusho> with an angle neither have -
21:33:33 <tusho> _practical_ abstractions
21:33:39 <tusho> e.g. some elements of oop
21:36:01 * tusho writes an example of some sort
21:40:37 <tusho> SimonRC: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1058441
21:40:47 <tusho> the interesting thing there is that it's basically as syntaxless as forth. {...} is a lambda
21:41:23 <tusho> AnMaster: just invented it
21:41:39 <AnMaster> tusho, don't get the : double ... line though
21:41:46 <tusho> AnMaster: function definition
21:42:04 <tusho> it's a concatenative (aka stack based) languages
21:42:07 <AnMaster> tusho, what does that function do?
21:42:10 <tusho> so { 2 * } doubles
21:42:27 <tusho> it is remarkably readable for a concatenative language though :-P
21:42:35 <tusho> AnMaster: that's the definer.
21:42:48 <AnMaster> I would call it object orientated
21:43:04 <tusho> AnMaster: but that's not actually integral to the language
21:43:08 <tusho> it could be implemented as a library
21:43:12 <tusho> and probably would be
21:44:33 <tusho> AnMaster: i just invented it right now to show that example to SimonRC
21:44:38 <tusho> so you can probably guess that it's unnamed
21:45:11 <tusho> i would anyway, if only to see you maybe write a program in something that isn't c or bash :)
21:45:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I have coded in pascal and apple script before
21:45:47 <SimonRC> tusho: do you know how Forth programs are compiled?
21:45:55 <tusho> i've read jonesforth a few times
21:46:35 <tusho> SimonRC: do you like my little language?
21:46:40 <tusho> in it, class: etc are just words, of course
21:46:41 <SimonRC> alas, I get DNS errors for pastebin.ca
21:46:47 <tusho> i'll paste elsewhere
21:47:00 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/0V40Bd52.txt
21:47:23 <AnMaster> tusho, well what do you think of C#, Pascal (Delphi style) and apple script
21:47:41 <tusho> c# has some nice functional things, better than java certainly
21:47:48 <tusho> pascal, well, it's alright :) tex and all
21:48:00 <tusho> apple script, I Can't Believe It's Not English! Wait yes I can
21:50:35 <SimonRC> personally, I would extends using this syntax:
21:51:08 <SimonRC> things with no superclass just use 0 or object as the parent
21:51:22 <tusho> SimonRC: my way allows for MI, though :-P
21:51:26 <tusho> anyway, if you don't like it
21:51:28 <tusho> write your own oop lib
21:51:35 <tusho> those features are totally orthogonal to the language
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21:51:39 <tusho> not built in at all
21:51:51 <SimonRC> I have seen simple OO for forth done in literally 1 screen of code
21:52:26 <tusho> SimonRC: yes, but my language is different in paradigm :)
21:52:35 <tusho> there is one thing I can't figure out though, how to use methods and functions named the same
21:52:43 <tusho> if I want a function named 'foo' but I have a method named foo
21:52:44 <SimonRC> my language is a paradigm too!
21:53:02 <tusho> and the instance is on the class wth the method named foo
21:53:26 <SimonRC> surely classes should be words that leave some speical address on the stack
21:53:45 <SimonRC> and anything that consumes a class consumes the speciall address of the class from the stack?
21:53:57 <tusho> SimonRC: You are thinking too low-level. :-P
21:54:15 <tusho> my language isn't very forthy
22:00:37 <tusho> SimonRC: how minimal do you think I can make my bootstrap language?
22:00:45 <tusho> hopefully, I want to make it like the lambda calculus of functional concatenative langs
22:02:47 <SimonRC> you could make lambda-abstractions and application the primitives?
22:03:01 <SimonRC> using de bruijn indexes of course
22:03:07 <tusho> SimonRC: hmm, example?
22:03:29 <SimonRC> actually, I am not quite sure how that would work
22:04:20 <SimonRC> the most primitive bootstrapping you could get away with is a "read word into memory" and an "execute"
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23:17:14 <GregorR> 26 hours on planes and in airports = ROCK ON
23:19:54 <GregorR> 26 hours on planes and in airports AFTER being awake for 24 hours = ROCK ON++
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23:47:46 <tusho> cctoide: GregorR: Socks!
23:59:23 <tusho> cctoide: GregorR: 'SOCK EMPORIUM'