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09:01:39 <oklopol> also, i wouldn't say it's bad to require openid, not that hard to sign up for
09:02:30 <oklopol> (especially if the alternative is to require one to register on your blog separately :P)
09:03:46 <oklopol> why didn't that bitch actually link to the blogger.
09:04:17 <oklopol> linked earlier, perhaps i need to logsearch
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09:20:20 <TheBlunderbuss> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/04/229213
09:20:24 <AnMaster> I don't think we can take a slashdotish storm
09:20:53 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, yes I have seen the article yesterday
09:20:56 <TheBlunderbuss> Article about spoof language. Comments containing brainfsck and whitespace. ##brainfuck mentions this channel in the topic *shrug*
09:21:12 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, yes this is about all esoteric languages
09:21:21 <AnMaster> from intercal to befunge and everything else too :)
09:21:57 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, I myself like befunge
09:22:08 <TheBlunderbuss> I like the idea though - some with the whole sort of romantic, industrial sense of trying to keep compiler size down. 240 bytes, shit.
09:22:19 * AnMaster has coded a fast interpreter for it (don't slashdot or digg it or anything, the server can't take that!)
09:24:26 <Slereah_> I don't want to be slashdotted.
09:24:33 <Slereah_> If I get slashdotted, I'll scream.
09:24:39 <TheBlunderbuss> "Befunge ... [invented] with the goal of being as difficult to compile as possible. "
09:25:20 <AnMaster> and yes it was invented with that in mind
09:25:37 <AnMaster> I think it could be possible to JIT it though
09:25:43 <AnMaster> but I lack the knowledge to do that
09:26:22 <TheBlunderbuss> These languages are like they're lifted from science fiction. Ohh I'll have a good time telling my buddy about these :)
09:26:30 <AnMaster> like java does with it's bytecode and such
09:27:00 <Slereah_> Nah, they're lifted from incredibly stupid ideas
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09:27:28 <Slereah_> "Hey guys, let's make a language based on that obscure computing model"
09:27:43 <Slereah_> "Hey dudes, let's make a language based on a stupid theme"
09:28:03 <deveah> well it's 11:27 for me
09:28:07 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, check taxi on the esolang wiki
09:28:40 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I find Taxi to be one of the best theme languages
09:28:51 <deveah> where's ma brotha when you need him?
09:28:57 <TheBlunderbuss> And also http://esolangs.org/wiki/X-D a language based on emoticons :D
09:29:26 <Slereah_> Check out Rube, too, it's quite awesome
09:29:54 <AnMaster> oh yes the "warehouse paradigm"
09:31:32 <Slereah_> Also check out NTCM and Lazy Birds, which are awesome because they're mine </totally non-biased>
09:31:44 <deveah> you know, altrough programmers are usually hardcore, i find you guys pretty "calm"
09:32:35 <AnMaster> Slereah_, ntcm does look interesting
09:32:39 <deveah> verbally violent and capable of doing programming shit noone thought it would be possible
09:32:59 <AnMaster> Slereah_, multiple memory segments basically
09:33:35 <Slereah_> Well, I actually did it because I couldn't understand parts of Turing's article
09:33:51 <Slereah_> Plus, the challenge is to not use the multiple tapes!
09:34:00 <Slereah_> Since everything can be done on one.
09:34:22 <AnMaster> Slereah_, yes but why did you make it then?
09:34:26 <Slereah_> There's actually features that aren't discussed on the page because they don't work so well or they're OS-specific.
09:34:40 <Slereah_> Well, I wanted it to be complete.
09:35:05 <AnMaster> you could just do brainfuck + 2 commands to move up/down between the tapes
09:35:13 <Slereah_> Yeah. The Love Machine 9000 (as is its real name) has a musical command.
09:35:28 <Slereah_> Brainfuck is actually not at all a Turing machine.
09:35:45 <Slereah_> You can write notes on the tape, and the interpreter would read them with the PC speaker
09:35:58 <Slereah_> But in my interpreter, it uses winsound, so it doesn't work on Linux
09:36:01 <AnMaster> Slereah_, eh read with pc speaker?
09:36:16 <AnMaster> sure they logically work the same
09:36:24 <AnMaster> but you can't listen to the pc speaker afaik
09:36:24 <Slereah_> It reads the notes on the tape
09:36:31 <Slereah_> Then plays them on the PC Speaker
09:36:48 <Slereah_> and then you enjoy the fine music
09:36:59 <AnMaster> Slereah_, so how is it a programming language?
09:37:03 <Slereah_> winsound is windows specific (It's a python library)
09:37:10 <AnMaster> you mean the notes have side effects?
09:37:33 <Slereah_> Nah. I just put them there to play the Monkey Island theme on a Turing machine
09:37:40 <Slereah_> I still have the program somewhere.
09:38:33 <Slereah_> Another feature that isn't on the wiki is the 2D option.
09:38:43 <Slereah_> I never could get it to work right.
09:39:18 <Slereah_> I do'nt even know what that is
09:39:32 <AnMaster> POSIX as in FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris and so on
09:40:19 <AnMaster> Slereah_, describes stuff like what libc functions should exist, how sockets should work, how the shell should work and so on
09:40:21 <Slereah_> Here's a picture of the 2D version : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello.png
09:40:40 <Slereah_> I was never able to get it to work correctly
09:40:43 <AnMaster> Slereah_, what does UPP mean there?
09:41:27 <AnMaster> Slereah_, why the extra P as I don't think that is Swedish?
09:41:30 <Slereah_> Almost every instruction is 2 letters long, AnMaster.
09:41:42 <AnMaster> Slereah_, it looks like 3 letters in that screenshot
09:42:56 <Slereah_> Here it is without spaces : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello2.png
09:43:55 <AnMaster> Slereah_, why is there an odd line on it?
09:44:15 <Slereah_> That's the print screen of Linux.
09:44:26 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl too
09:44:34 <Slereah_> The mouse cursor leaves a trail for some reason
09:44:43 <AnMaster> Slereah_, oh, never seen that on Linux
09:45:11 <AnMaster> Slereah_, what terminal are you using?
09:45:21 <AnMaster> I don't see it in either xterm or konsole
09:45:29 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, that is the joke... duh :P
09:46:19 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I asked what terminal, not what distro btw
09:46:33 <Slereah_> Well I don't know what it means
09:46:39 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, well perl has in some parts an esoteric syntax
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09:46:51 <AnMaster> Slereah_, well does it say xterm?
09:47:21 <AnMaster> ah, well I guess what TheBlunderbuss suggested
09:47:23 <Slereah_> I can't check, because I can't access it no more.
09:49:07 <Slereah_> It's not like I can go back on it!
09:51:41 <TheBlunderbuss> Yeah, because my compiz suggestion doesn't hold water if you weren't using that version, where it's on by default. It wreaks all kinds of havok on Wine
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09:56:48 <Slereah_> I'd like to redo the dual booting thing, but my hard drive seems brokin D:
09:58:31 <Slereah_> But esolangs can also be done using computation theory!
09:59:06 <TheBlunderbuss> Kinda like a composer who doesn't know how a piano works
09:59:12 <Slereah_> As with the current project : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
10:00:04 <Slereah_> Nothing in my languages use more than computational models and some sort of I/O.
10:00:21 <Slereah_> It can still be a bitch to program though.
10:02:58 <Slereah_> I only tried one themed language.It is horrible D:
10:02:59 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica
10:04:36 <Slereah_> I never could find a way to express priority
10:05:00 <Slereah_> There's no grouping symbol in western mathematics until the 12th century
10:06:19 <Slereah_> It was actually a bar over the grouped symbols first.
10:06:27 <Slereah_> Parenthesis are... 15th century?
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10:07:03 <Slereah_> "Parentheses ( ) are "found in rare instances as early as the sixteenth century" (Cajori vol. 1, page 390)."
10:08:26 <Slereah_> Before the Renaissance, western mathematics was pretty shitty on the notation side.
10:08:50 <Slereah_> And before the Arithmetica, there were pretty much no notations at all.
10:09:15 <AnMaster> Slereah_, you don't need (), you could use RPN
10:10:22 <jamesstanley> Some site said 'Brainfuck is a minimalistic but almost Turing-complete programming language'
10:10:43 <AnMaster> jamesstanley, of course no actual implementation is turing complete
10:10:51 <AnMaster> as computers doesn't have infinite memory
10:10:59 <AnMaster> you need infinite memory to be turing complete
10:11:06 <AnMaster> which the language itself allows
10:11:37 <Slereah_> It can be rough on most computers.
10:11:47 <AnMaster> jamesstanley, any implementation, like any computer, will be a bounded-storage machine
10:11:56 <AnMaster> and yes you need infinite time too
10:12:05 <jamesstanley> I thought it was reasonable to call something turing-complete without that, that's all
10:12:22 <AnMaster> jamesstanley, but yes brainfuck is Turing complete
10:12:36 <Slereah_> I once tried to make a language that had infinite memory without infinite storage.
10:12:48 <Slereah_> But this was met with failure.
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10:14:09 <Slereah_> Really, when I read those articles on theoretical machines better than Turing machines, I can't help but think that you first need to do somethig really TC D:
10:14:39 <RobHu> What is the name of the esoteric language that consists of coming on IRC and specifying your program (in this channel I think) ?
10:16:12 <Slereah_> It used to be here, but then got annoying.
10:17:58 <Slereah_> Self interpreters are also quite easy.
10:18:06 <RobHu> This search all started when someone sent me a link to the Brainfuck interpreter someone recently released that is written in LOLcode
10:18:29 <Slereah_> There's Brainfuck interpreters in a bajillio languages
10:18:47 <Slereah_> Yeah, IRP isn't popular anymore
10:19:02 <Slereah_> Brainfuck is usually the first language implemented on a new esolang
10:19:51 <Slereah_> Then you've got nuts like Oerjan who implements Unlambda on INTERCAL D:
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10:30:10 <Slereah_> But remember the noblest quine of all : the cheating quine.
10:30:36 <TheBlunderbuss> the one that merely prints a file containing the source?
10:30:54 <Slereah_> There are a number of ways to cheat.
10:31:09 <Slereah_> You can just use a language that can literaly prints the source code, yes
10:31:20 <Slereah_> The empty string is also a quine in many languages
10:31:43 <Slereah_> And the most cheating quine I've ever seen is the kind where you use error messages.
10:32:57 <Slereah_> You write "Command not recognized" as your program, and the interpreter outputs that.
10:33:42 <Slereah_> They have a special name, but I forgot
10:33:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: meh, evidently rafb only holds pastes for a day... you wouldn't happen to have any CCBI-breaking TURT code still around?
10:34:51 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/GxNjSm13.html
10:34:54 <Deewiant> I could use the quine but it's a bit too big :-)
10:35:09 <Deewiant> and have you gotten it to work yet?
10:35:19 <Slereah_> http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_kim.txt
10:35:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, haven't had time to test
10:37:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, currently configuring 2.6.25 kernel
10:42:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, note that I expect there are bugs in my TURT too
10:42:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I will be away next week so
10:42:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, please point out any bugs today :)
10:43:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes I know bg color is broken in both ccbi and cfunge
10:43:27 <Deewiant> not "broken", just "forgot to implement it" :-P
10:43:31 <TheBlunderbuss> What separates a 2 command language from just binary? Is it because the language is mathematical, and a binary is machine code?
10:43:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, svg doesn't support it
10:43:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that doesn't fill it all
10:44:04 <Slereah_> TheBlunderbuss : Binary is a way to code it.
10:44:17 <Slereah_> 1 and 0 don't have any meaning by themselves
10:44:21 <AnMaster> TheBlunderbuss, why not use ternary?
10:44:42 <AnMaster> Slereah_, you could encode it as graycode too
10:45:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess the same size as the viewbox
10:45:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I think having transparent image is cool
10:45:42 <Slereah_> TheBlunderbuss : In Brainfuck, + alone makes sense.
10:45:59 <Slereah_> in some binary encoding, 1 alone doesn't mean anything.
10:46:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually an idea would be to make that the default I guess
10:46:19 <Slereah_> Well, the computer is just a way to implement it.
10:46:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and only if someone used the N instruction then draw the rectangle
10:46:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I already did it like that :-)
10:47:05 <TheBlunderbuss> In order to give the computer instruction, it needs binary, right?
10:47:27 <Slereah_> You can build computers without binary.
10:47:43 <Slereah_> hell, back in the days, computing models were meant to be used by people.
10:47:45 <TheBlunderbuss> How do you go from a language to something the computer can understand?
10:47:55 <Slereah_> The computer was a dude that had a pen and some paper
10:48:28 <TheBlunderbuss> A bunch of dudes, for more complex algorithms. "Jane, you take all even numbers, and subtract five. Billy you take Janes numbers and..."
10:48:53 <Slereah_> Plenty of algorithms are used by dudes!
10:49:11 <Slereah_> But computing models weren't meant to actually compute
10:49:28 <Slereah_> They were just theoretical bases to think on what it means to compute
10:49:50 <Slereah_> Also, as you might now, not all computers are binary.
10:50:00 <TheBlunderbuss> Brainfuck needs a compiler. So what does it compile to?
10:50:12 <Slereah_> Well, machine code in most cases.
10:50:30 <Slereah_> Binary. But this is implementation specific.
10:51:12 <Slereah_> You could build for instance a mechanical machine for Brainfuck.
10:51:14 <TheBlunderbuss> A single command in the language could compile into a huge block of 1's and 0's, yes?
10:51:34 <Slereah_> Depends. With BF, you can go by with 3.
10:51:44 <Slereah_> Or 2, if you use reduced versions.
10:52:00 <TheBlunderbuss> Because someone asked me "if you have a 2-command language, why not just use binary?"
10:52:24 <Slereah_> Well, you can. But 2 commands doesn't mean 2 symbols very often.
10:52:43 <Slereah_> I'm not sure there's actually any 2 commands - 2 symbols languages.
10:53:04 <Slereah_> Because there's the dreaded END OF FILE
10:53:36 <Slereah_> Even if you manage to trim it down to two nullary commands, you'll need end of file with 2 commands.
10:53:58 <Slereah_> Lazy K gets by with 3 symbols - 2 functions and no need for end of file
10:54:38 <Slereah_> Iota has 1 functions - 2 symbols and no need for EOF, but I feel it's a little cheaty.
10:57:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok now cfunge got it too
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11:31:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the turt quine almost works
11:31:36 <AnMaster> odd horizontal lines on top of everything
11:32:38 <Deewiant> I'm in the process of patching Tango so that my code compiles ^_^
11:32:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the TURT quine work for you?
11:33:04 <Deewiant> given that my code doesn't compile
11:33:06 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/hjXLXn25.html
11:33:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however that got odd horizontal lines
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11:33:23 <AnMaster> I think the code doesn't end the path when it should
11:33:34 <AnMaster> have to figure out a test case for it
11:33:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try to watch it, though it is huge
11:34:35 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/zRq0yD49.html WARNING 256 KB
11:35:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is cfunge output
11:35:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I got no idea if that is on fingerprint side or not
11:37:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, current output look more like hieroglyphs heh
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12:19:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: okay, starting to look at your befunge finally...
12:20:08 <Deewiant> first of all, you clear the background to color = 18 and then don't set a pen colour
12:20:40 <Deewiant> so if the default pen colour is black (a reasonable assumption, though undefined) one can't really see much of anything there. :-P
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12:59:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes agree, fixed version a sec
12:59:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/9bpxzO20.html
12:59:38 <AnMaster> I did that myself some hours ago
13:01:15 <AnMaster> then the line saying "green tint" should say "blue tint"
13:03:00 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/Gs1Ywl27.html
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13:16:38 <AnMaster> hrrm how to rewrite this as non-recursive: http://rafb.net/p/G3hrFO24.html
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13:26:28 <AnMaster> Slereah_, static means local to file
13:43:30 <Slereah_> But I am utterly terrible at guessing D:
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14:38:09 <Deewiant> the quine does indeed seem to result in a bunch of lines
14:40:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice you fixed it, now you are conforming again (more or less)
14:41:03 <Deewiant> and the output in general is incorrect, the letters don't look like in the example
14:41:04 <AnMaster> as for the lines, not sure of the cause, I guess either the quine assumes a off by one error in paths, or we do?
14:42:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there may be other bugs of course
14:42:34 <AnMaster> for example my test program doesn't test everything that is possible to test
14:42:46 <Deewiant> but as long as there aren't, we're good. ;-)
14:43:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect there may be an error when doing "draw a line, pen up, *one* B or F instruction, pen down, print"
14:43:06 <oklopol> you noobs, my programs never have bugs
14:43:06 <Deewiant> of course not, SOCK for instance would run for an hour if you tried to test every combination
14:44:31 <AnMaster> it was something I noted and need to write a proper test for
14:45:16 <AnMaster> anyway I think I fixed that bug myself
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14:58:39 <pikhq> Sweet. INTERCAL on /.
15:02:10 <pikhq> Someone new I can shove Dimensifuck on, perhaps? :p
15:02:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haha, fixed that bug and now the quine looks even worse
15:02:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what was the issue with that bug
15:03:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so tell me about it to save me some work :D
15:03:11 <Deewiant> if (penDown || (pic.path && pic.path.penDown)) {
15:03:19 <Deewiant> I thought that the latter part of the || was redundant
15:03:33 <Deewiant> so evidently it wasn't redundant
15:03:44 <Deewiant> "TRUT"4(n0H1Pf1+:*::**1-Naa*F0PaF1PI@
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15:04:10 <Deewiant> now I need to figure out why it isn't redundant
15:04:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, interesting tell me when you find out, our code is quite similar
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15:14:45 <Deewiant> muah, everything works now, quine included
15:17:39 <Deewiant> although the quine is a bit buggy, as I suspected
15:17:47 <Deewiant> because !Befunge doesn't implement the dots
15:18:03 <Deewiant> so the correct result of the quine looks quite dotty
15:18:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but yeah, the logic regarding addPath() in move() is wrong
15:19:06 <Deewiant> the correct way to do it is to remove the latter part of the || mentioned above
15:19:20 <Deewiant> and then add the following at the beginning of move()
15:19:22 <Deewiant> a7+3*5*N 0C 11x> ; Clear with blue. Set pen to black ;
15:19:22 <Deewiant> 0H 1P 11x> ; Set direction, pen down. ;
15:19:22 <Deewiant> 52*1-F 0P 2F 1P 53*1-F 11x> ; Draw first line with a gap in it. ;
15:19:35 <Deewiant> if (penDown && movedWithoutDraw)
15:20:06 <Deewiant> that's the needed fix to make everything work
15:22:22 <Deewiant> which part did you not get :-P
15:22:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this below the line:
15:22:36 <AnMaster> "// a -> ... -> z is equivalent to a -> z if not drawing"
15:23:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, penDown == pic.penDown or turt.penDown?
15:23:29 <Deewiant> 2008-07-05 17:03:10 ( Deewiant) IIif (penDown || (pic.path && pic.path.penDown)) {
15:23:33 <Deewiant> 2008-07-05 17:19:05 ( Deewiant) the correct way to do it is to remove the latter part of the || mentioned above
15:27:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh mycology got an error
15:27:23 <AnMaster> it sets background color to 0x1
15:27:38 <pikhq> kmain[flimble, booble, babble]
15:27:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so yes it shows two circles in mycology's test of TURT
15:28:01 <AnMaster> however.. they are not visible
15:28:16 <Deewiant> in fact, I was going to ask you
15:28:25 <Deewiant> do you feel like writing a proper mycology test for TURT
15:28:44 <Deewiant> don't worry about making it tight enough to fit where it needs to, I can do that
15:29:42 <Deewiant> since I know you're averse to writing compact Befunge ;-)
15:29:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes maybe, however probably at end of next week, I'm going to Norway in a few days and no computer or internet
15:30:09 <pikhq> AnMaster, you should totally meet Oerjan while you're there.
15:30:38 <pikhq> Don't remember where he is in Norway.
15:30:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if (penDown && movedWithoutDraw) <-- that breaks
15:31:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try my test case I made before
15:31:58 <AnMaster> it goes wrong when first changing color
15:32:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or do you mean in addition to current test case
15:33:23 <Deewiant> for the mycology thing? I'd rather it be replaced completely
15:33:41 <Deewiant> for all the rest? CCBI now works on all inputs I've tried, including your test case, the quine, and my little one-liner
15:34:38 <AnMaster> can you just post your move function in your D code?
15:34:50 <AnMaster> because I think I misinterpreted it
15:34:53 <Deewiant> you only need to do two changes, what's so hard >_<
15:34:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that it doesn't work
15:35:14 <Deewiant> at the very beginning of move()
15:35:15 <pikhq> I think Oerjan is in Trondheim, actually.
15:35:19 <pikhq> (He'll have to confirm that)
15:35:25 <Deewiant> if (penDown && movedWithoutDraw)
15:35:29 <Deewiant> before everything else, that is
15:35:37 <Deewiant> then, leave everything else as is
15:35:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh not to replace the similar lines just below "// a -> ... -> z is equivalent to a -> z if not drawing"?
15:35:46 <Deewiant> so that it's only if (penDown)
15:36:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: parse failed; invalid sentence
15:38:17 <Deewiant> of course it does, I did it ;-)
15:39:49 <Deewiant> with the difference that this time I actually thought it through instead of just writing code ;-P
15:40:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway it is hard to properly test TURT
15:40:29 <Deewiant> of course one can't test all possibilities
15:40:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you couldn't test all the bugs of the original code in one run
15:40:39 <Deewiant> but you can do a lot better than what mycology currently does :-)
15:41:22 <Deewiant> (and if not, it doesn't necessarily matter)
15:41:23 <AnMaster> no as one of them in your original code needed to happen at the end (the missing dot) while another in my code only happened if there was no dot at the end
15:42:11 <Deewiant> yeah, one can't test every single case
15:42:26 <Deewiant> just try to be reasonably exhaustive
15:43:14 <Deewiant> draw something, then clear it, then draw some more (intersecting paths, stuff like making sure that a->b->c means that the color at b is the color of b->c), put a couple of dots
15:43:24 <Deewiant> and query the heading/position reasonably often to see if it's correct
15:43:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway you already do some tests of what the current functions return, I wouldn't replace that bit, I would just after that start with N to clear and draw some test picture
15:43:42 <AnMaster> to test that they draw correctly
15:44:06 <AnMaster> I did get a BAD for return value from querypen
15:44:14 <Deewiant> IIRC the current thing tests only how many values are popped
15:44:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it tests that querypen returns what is expected
15:44:32 <Deewiant> it could even be that it depends on some defaults
15:44:39 <Deewiant> i.e. does the pen start up/down
15:44:45 <Deewiant> what's the pen colour by default
15:44:59 <Deewiant> and it probably used to start down? ;-)
15:45:10 <Deewiant> but yeah, stuff like that shouldn't be tested
15:45:15 <AnMaster> no I put a ! too much in a place
15:45:23 <AnMaster> so I think it was just pure wrong
15:45:35 <AnMaster> I returned opposite state compared to actual pen state
15:46:05 <Deewiant> but anyhoo, that's something that probably shouldn't be BAD with the current tests
15:46:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway if it is supposed to be able to drive a real turtle bot (as the specs suggests) I don't see how it can handle pen color, or even clear instruction
15:46:14 <AnMaster> also what is the display instruction supposed to do?
15:46:26 <Deewiant> just like CCBI ignores the display instruction ;-)
15:46:37 <AnMaster> well what is display *supposed* to do=
15:46:40 <Deewiant> it's supposed to display the picture
15:46:54 <Deewiant> but I'm not going to link an SVG viewer into CCBI
15:48:59 <Deewiant> of course that's not necessary
15:49:04 <Deewiant> since it's only lines and dots
15:49:14 <Deewiant> it would probably be fairly simple to draw it in OpenGL, say
15:49:22 <Deewiant> but I can't be bothered, and hence CCBI just ignores it
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15:50:29 <Deewiant> yes, it says "if possible" or something like that
15:50:48 <AnMaster> it doesn't say "if possible" for pen colour or clear iirc
15:51:01 <AnMaster> yet it says "used to drive a real turtle bot"
15:51:16 <Deewiant> it could be used to drive a real turtle bot
15:51:23 <Deewiant> just don't have the bot move until it gets I
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15:51:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you clear and then run I again?
15:51:49 <Deewiant> and as for pen colour, beats me, I haven't even seen a turtle bot that can draw something :-)
15:52:03 <AnMaster> I guess it want interpreter to pause with a message like: "Please change the pen to a green one with 1% red tint in" or "Please replace paper with a slightly yellowish one"
15:53:43 <AnMaster> of course after that it would say "press any key to continue"
15:53:57 <AnMaster> "no not the any key, I mean you can choose a key on your own"
15:55:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway if you remove the dots from the quine output then the image gets a lot smaller (from 254K to 134K)
15:55:46 <AnMaster> though I would never use that font myself anywhere
15:56:23 <AnMaster> svg is really quite a space wasting format
15:56:37 <Deewiant> gzipping it probably saves much
15:56:42 <Deewiant> and really, it depends on the situation
15:56:56 <Deewiant> <rect x="0" y="0" width="12345" height="12345"/>
15:57:15 <Deewiant> put that in a bitmap and watch it grow :-)
15:57:44 <AnMaster> can browsers view gzipped ones
16:06:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you dare open this http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/tquine_result.svg ?
16:06:12 <AnMaster> it is edited to remove the dots
16:06:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, firefox fails at displaying it
16:06:29 <Deewiant> I checked it myself without the dots locally
16:06:36 <Deewiant> and firefox displayed it fine here :-)
16:06:42 <Deewiant> didn't check that one of yours though
16:06:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it display my link though
16:07:43 <AnMaster> and so does konqueror if you are prepared to wait
16:07:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does my image differ from yours? scale?
16:08:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same, and firefox only displays dots from my test code
16:08:31 <AnMaster> while inkscape displays lines too
16:08:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no I think firefox is
16:08:58 <AnMaster> let me save resave it in inkscape
16:09:00 <Deewiant> it's possible that the "miter-join" or whatever is messing it up
16:09:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that just tells corner style
16:09:13 <Deewiant> or then the "width" and "height" specifiers, what's up with those
16:09:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, but if it doesn't support it then boom, no?
16:09:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it handles it as inkscape does that one by default
16:10:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway the width/height were added by first resave in inkscape to remove the dots
16:10:33 <AnMaster> and it fails from a full resave in inkscape too
16:10:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does the source differ from yours in the image file?
16:11:01 <AnMaster> because that is only difference I can think of
16:11:09 <Deewiant> what source differ from what in what
16:11:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't have your last version with fixed TURT after all
16:12:34 <Deewiant> stroke-linejoin is present in yours, not in mine
16:12:42 <Deewiant> I don't have id, width, height
16:13:19 <Deewiant> I don't use style="", I use attributes directly
16:13:28 <Deewiant> fill="none" instead of style="fill:none"
16:15:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway changing that didn't help either
16:15:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the viewbox or the numbers differ?
16:18:05 <Deewiant> viewBox="-0.0002 -0.0002 0.0833 0.0244"
16:18:17 <Deewiant> viewBox="-.0011 -.0011 .0851 .0262"
16:18:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is interesting.
16:19:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however the image generated is correct in inkscape and konqueror
16:19:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the numbers for the path also differ btw?
16:19:49 <AnMaster> my guess why they differ, long double vs. double
16:19:50 <Deewiant> I'm not going to go through the whole path >_<
16:20:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok look at the first 10 numbers or so?
16:20:11 <AnMaster> just to see if the differ in either place
16:20:18 <Deewiant> the first line looks similar to me
16:22:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, using long double a few numbers change in the last decimal near the middle, nothing that could cause that much difference
16:22:44 <Deewiant> one thing is, do you use padding or not
16:23:02 <Deewiant> because that's a difference of 10 right there
16:23:17 <AnMaster> while you only use it if it is small iirc
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16:23:40 <AnMaster> anyway that padding translates to 0.0010
16:23:42 <Deewiant> it only matters if the image is small
16:23:46 <AnMaster> anyway that padding translates to 0.00010
16:24:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and the path formatting looks the same for my program?
16:24:36 <AnMaster> I mean, M and L in the same places?
16:24:48 <Deewiant> the first and the last line looked similar to me
16:24:52 <AnMaster> because "create new path segment" was one bug I fixed
16:25:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right, however, not exactly the same numbers in them?
16:25:32 <Deewiant> similar == I can't tell the difference
16:25:44 <Deewiant> but looking at a line with 200 numbers doesn't mean they're the same
16:25:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well upload your pic then
16:26:32 <Deewiant> due to whitespace differences and such
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16:27:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes kompare can be set to ignore whitespace differences
16:27:40 <Deewiant> whatever, I'll upload it in a minute
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16:28:08 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, I noticed...
16:28:17 <tusho> but it's a safe bet just to get it typed and hit enter
16:28:20 <tusho> otherwise i'd have to check
16:28:22 <tusho> and therefore never win
16:28:24 <AnMaster> tusho, again it took about 30 seconds from when you connected :/
16:28:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm how is the constant PI defined in D?
16:28:37 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, that's my client
16:28:42 <tusho> still, we have a good way of measuring it now
16:28:45 <AnMaster> I guess depending on how exact it is...
16:28:48 <tusho> our clients log, to the second, when we press enter
16:29:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 3.14159265358979323846 for M_PI here (defined in /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/math.h)
16:30:06 <tusho> psht, my M_PI contains every digit
16:30:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also does casts of floats to ints in D round or truncate?
16:31:15 <Deewiant> const real PI = 0x1.921fb54442d1846ap+1L;
16:31:20 <tusho> 01:32:39 <deveah> verbally violent and capable of doing programming shit noone thought it would be possible
16:31:24 <tusho> this is called 'elitist irc assholes'
16:31:27 <Deewiant> I'm going to upload, post a link, and then go eat
16:31:29 <tusho> and they can't program worth shit
16:31:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh that one is slightly crazy
16:32:26 <tusho> Deewiant: question
16:32:30 <tusho> why do finnish people put ->
16:32:33 <tusho> after their 'bye' messages
16:32:37 <tusho> oklopol does it too
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16:34:43 <tusho> 01:36:44 <TheBlunderbuss> Slereah_: doesn't work on Linux !? :O
16:34:52 <tusho> i could probably guess you came from slashdot if I hadn't read it earlier
16:35:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I notice you do floating point now?
16:38:09 <oklopol> tusho: because it's the superior way to say you're gone
16:38:26 <tusho> oklopol: but why only fins
16:38:47 <oklopol> didn't know it was only finns
16:39:05 <oklopol> i guess we're the superior race then?
16:40:42 <Deewiant> I was going to say something like that
16:41:28 <Deewiant> but yeah, it's quick and to the point, if you put "->" somewhere it means the next thing you do after pressing enter is leave
16:42:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: where do you see that?
16:42:19 <AnMaster> M2e-4,0 L2e-4,2e-4 M4e-4,0 L4e-4,2e-4 M.0014,1e-4 L.001,1e-4 L.0012,1e-4 L.0012,7e-4 M.0018,3e-4 L.0021,6e-4
16:42:28 <Deewiant> and where does that imply floating point
16:42:30 <AnMaster> doesn't look like fixed point at all
16:42:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh so why is it formatted like that then?
16:42:49 <Deewiant> because I format it manually so that it takes minimal space
16:43:29 <Deewiant> be warned, though: firefox has an open bug that scientific notation doesn't work
16:44:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I think whatever makes cfunge output fail in firefox is also a firefox bug
16:44:36 <AnMaster> same happens for the paths in my simple test case
16:44:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it works in konqueror, safari, opera, inkscape
16:45:12 <AnMaster> or something thing that, could be .15 I guess
16:45:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and still don't see it?
16:45:41 <Deewiant> well, your simple test case worked fine
16:45:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well ccbi tquine crashes firefox
16:45:56 <Deewiant> yes, that's because of the scientific notation
16:46:40 <Deewiant> and just turning off the scientific notation makes it work fine :-)
16:47:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway if you select to ever update the mycology results page remember that firefox should not be used to check cfunge, instead use inkscape or such
16:47:20 <AnMaster> or any of the other browsers I mentioned
16:48:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you said you had no doctype? in the file you uploaded there is a doctype
16:48:53 <AnMaster> "<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">"
16:49:14 <Deewiant> you really don't need to inform me about these things, I do know you know :-)
16:49:29 <AnMaster> to make the validator warning shut up?
16:49:59 <Deewiant> I just checked the SVG spec and it seemed that doctype is used
16:51:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the correct doctype for tiny then?
16:52:10 <Deewiant> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVGMobile-20030114/#sec-conformance
16:52:32 <AnMaster> ah wait tiny doesn't support style sheets
16:52:40 <AnMaster> oh well I will change to use full
16:53:29 <AnMaster> "Error Line 12, Column 12: there is no attribute "style".
16:53:29 <AnMaster> <path style="fill:none;stroke:#000000;stroke-width:0.00005px;stroke-linecap:roun"
16:53:59 <Deewiant> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVGMobile-20030114/#sec-styind
16:54:09 <Deewiant> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVGMobile-20030114/#sec-styling
16:54:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it says it isn't valid for <path>
17:01:42 <Deewiant> one could save potentially a lot of space by using a class="p" instead of repeating stroke-width &c. in every <path>
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17:02:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I would need to define the class in a <style> or?
17:03:18 <Deewiant> but I'm wondering if it's worth it to move away from Tiny for that
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17:03:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you gain with tiny?
17:03:44 -!- Judofyr has joined.
17:04:00 <Deewiant> the ability to display the images on cell phones :-P
17:04:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I doubt one could display the tquine output anyway
17:04:29 <AnMaster> konq can do it after several seconds
17:07:59 <AnMaster> <style type="text/css" media="all">
17:07:59 <AnMaster> path {fill:none;stroke-width:0.00005px;stroke-linecap:round;stroke-linejoin:miter}
17:08:28 <Deewiant> and I'm not sure about the media
17:08:48 <AnMaster> tusho, genx doesn't know how a svg is built
17:08:55 <AnMaster> tusho, so that won't help at all for this
17:09:13 <tusho> AnMaster: genx knows how xml is built
17:09:19 <Slereah_> One of the old style negation symbol looks in between ~ and the infinity symbol
17:09:53 <tusho> Deewiant: yeah, genx is basically that for c
17:14:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your N doesn't reset min/max does it?
17:14:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes for a new drawing
17:29:38 <Slereah_> But for some reason, used in the "smallest x such that F(x) = 0"
17:30:37 <Slereah_> Maybe smallest x such that it is true!
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17:41:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/9973/safariqi5.png
17:41:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, from someone on another channel
17:45:04 <tusho> lol@safari on windowds
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17:46:13 <AnMaster> point is that firefox is wrong
17:46:31 <olsner> opera seems to render it like safari
17:46:34 <tusho> apple software sucks on iwndows
17:46:35 <AnMaster> so someone should file a bug, but I don't plan to try to make a minimal test case
17:46:46 <AnMaster> olsner, reference rending at http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/tquine_result.png
17:46:48 <Deewiant> or firefox is right and all the others have better error-correcting heuristics ;-)
17:47:01 <tusho> Deewiant: that seems likely, actually
17:47:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that *is* a posibility, however w3c validator likes it
17:47:11 <Deewiant> it's been known to happen (though I can't think of an example offhand)
17:47:43 <AnMaster> tusho, also opening it and then resaving it in inkscape doesn't help
17:47:56 <AnMaster> tusho, meaning inkscape also cause invalid svg image?
17:47:58 <olsner> AnMaster: what is it btw?
17:48:03 <Deewiant> the validator isn't the be-all and end-all
17:48:04 <AnMaster> http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tquine.php
17:48:05 <tusho> olsner: befunge98 quine
17:48:34 * tusho installs opera for the sake of completenes
17:49:05 <olsner> opera is the only browser you need :D
17:49:23 <tusho> olsner: i'm quite happy with ff3 :)
17:49:30 <tusho> (on os x opera's integration kinda sucks too)
17:49:44 <tusho> e.g. like how it looks nothing like any other program
17:50:26 <tusho> its rendering is dog slow
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18:01:41 <AnMaster> / SVGT limits all numbers to -32767.9999 - 32767.9999, not -32768 - 32767
18:01:41 <AnMaster> / that limits our width to 32767.9999, hence the min and max values
18:01:52 <AnMaster> err the irc client ate the first /
18:02:15 <AnMaster> shouldn't -32767.9999 - 32767.9999 = 2* 32767.9999
18:02:59 <Deewiant> and what range does SVGT limit all numbers to
18:03:17 <Deewiant> and is 65535.9998 in that range
18:03:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still that seems quite odd
18:03:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about normal svg
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18:04:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well cfunge use full svg now, but 99% of the non-print logic is shared
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18:19:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wrote a bit of a test case that prints some undef then renders my test rending
18:19:58 <AnMaster> is there anything obvious missing from my test apart from some checks that pen state and such return right?
18:20:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/UxjZH195.html
18:20:32 <Deewiant> a crossing line over it might be nice
18:20:56 <Deewiant> (I don't think either of ours can handle that case)
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18:21:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well my dot is as wide as a line so it won't be visible
18:21:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well in my case color overwrites, it doesn't mix
18:21:38 <Deewiant> and make sure they are different colours
18:21:44 <Deewiant> ideally have every element a different colour
18:22:36 <AnMaster> anyway it is impossible to test all cases, like "does the last drewn line show up" if you finishes with drawing a dot
18:22:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and ccbi had some problems with the last line segment before iirc
18:23:19 <AnMaster> and it was followed by a print command
18:23:23 <Deewiant> "before" doesn't interest me anymore
18:23:30 <Deewiant> this has been rewritten so much that it doesn't apply
18:23:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'd like to see your code, have you uploaded it yet?
18:24:10 <AnMaster> cfunge uses a public repo, bazaar style rather than cathedral ;P
18:24:31 <Deewiant> and besides, I haven't checked anything into the repo
18:24:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hrrm about line and point
18:25:02 <AnMaster> it will end up with circle last
18:25:10 <AnMaster> as they were all drewn at the end
18:25:11 <tusho> <AnMaster> cfunge uses a public repo, bazaar style rather than cathedral ;P
18:25:14 <tusho> Eric S. Raymond detected.
18:25:17 <tusho> Please evacuate the building.
18:26:01 <tusho> I do my sarcasm without markers.
18:26:17 <AnMaster> blergh that viloates RFC sqrt(-1)
18:28:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you still draw all circles last?
18:28:25 <AnMaster> well I can't see how do do it in same order at all
18:28:46 <AnMaster> well maybe keeping a chain of events and then processing them in that order
18:29:16 <tusho> AnMaster: apparently ~ is a popular sarcasm marker
18:29:23 <tusho> Marking sarcasm makes it even more funny.~
18:29:34 <tusho> AnMaster: Apparently it's called the 'snark'.
18:29:40 <tusho> What a great idea.~
18:29:54 <tusho> I'd end up having to attach it to all my messages. ~.
18:30:29 <AnMaster> well I think that using ~ for marking sarcasm is to help the dumb~
18:30:47 <AnMaster> even I could detect you were doing sarcasm above with "<tusho> Eric S. Raymond detected."
18:31:01 <AnMaster> pretending to not have noticed it
18:31:13 <tusho> AnMaster: nice try
18:31:18 <oklopol> you guys are fucking retards.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
18:31:29 <tusho> oklopol: that just looks like...
18:31:39 <AnMaster> tusho, does two ~ cancel each other?
18:31:49 <tusho> AnMaster: I know everything about the snark~
18:32:07 <AnMaster> well o wise tusho, tell me then!
18:33:28 <Deewiant> whee, the quine is down to 217911 bytes
18:34:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are working on the quine?
18:34:38 <Deewiant> s/quine/SVG created by running CCBI on the quine/
18:35:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what did you change?
18:35:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about svg line length, is that for svg tiny only or?
18:35:45 <Deewiant> Unless stated otherwise for a particular attribute or property, the range for a <integer> encompasses (at a minimum) -2147483648 to 2147483647.
18:36:19 <Deewiant> 2008-07-05 20:03:52 ( AnMaster) Deewiant, what about normal svg
18:36:19 <Deewiant> 2008-07-05 20:03:55 ( AnMaster) where are the limits then?
18:36:59 <Deewiant> Unless stated otherwise for a particular attribute or property, a <number> has the capacity for at least a single-precision floating point number (see [ICC32]) and has a range (at a minimum) of -3.4e+38F to +3.4e+38F.
18:42:05 <oklopol> why isn't egobot here anymore
18:48:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not sure if you already done this, but you can make colors shorter
18:48:33 <AnMaster> instead of #ffffff you can just do: #fff
18:48:47 <AnMaster> if both chars are the same in all groups you can do like that
18:49:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but not something I will waste sleep over :P
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18:50:22 * pikhq finds himself surprised. . .
18:50:32 <pikhq> I'm not used to diners having yerba mate.
18:51:10 <pikhq> It's a caffeinated beverage. . . Fairly common in South America, barely even *known* in North America.
18:52:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: way ahead of you there :-) 217902 bytes now, I guess that's sufficient
18:52:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I won't try to do that myself
18:53:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have selected "full" anyway
18:53:13 <ihope_> What a wonderful invention.~
18:53:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, and not known in Sweden at all
18:53:41 <pikhq> Insanely fucking good.
18:53:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, caffeine? a drug in other words
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19:08:25 <Deewiant> man, I knew SVG was a bad idea
19:08:35 <Deewiant> inkscape is using 870 megabytes of memory :-/
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19:12:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? inkscape manages my image here, but it doesn't like it
19:13:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway you could just render it to png then ;P
19:13:59 <Deewiant> I probably will change this to use PNG if it's not too big a fuss, actually
19:14:16 <Deewiant> only reason I used SVG was because it was easy
19:14:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think you should offer options then
19:14:30 <Deewiant> now that I have a working SVG impl
19:14:32 <AnMaster> and if you do png you need to compress it *well*
19:14:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see optipng and such
19:14:41 <Deewiant> anyhoo, try http://iki.fi/deewiant/CCBI_TURT.svg again
19:14:56 <tusho> Broked my firefox.
19:14:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I suspect it'd use less space than the SVG regardless. :-P
19:15:12 <Deewiant> tusho: yes, firefox crashes on that.
19:15:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends, as you said yourself before, once you do a huge rect in the bg...
19:15:45 <Deewiant> yes, but that's rare in the end
19:15:52 <Deewiant> can your inkscape open that SVG?
19:15:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also you can scale it!
19:16:19 <Deewiant> doesn't help if you can't open it. :-P
19:17:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so did it crash your comp?
19:17:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it caused inkscape to lock up, which my image doesn't, I guess you got some error in it, because ccbi-pre-fix also cause inkscape to lock up
19:18:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the cfunge rendered image cause no lockups
19:18:28 <Deewiant> yeah, so how does it differ from yours
19:19:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well first, you do stuff like M2e-4
19:19:19 <AnMaster> I set it for all path elements
19:19:30 <AnMaster> p{fill:none;stroke-width:1e-4px;stroke-linecap:round;stroke-linejoin:round}
19:19:30 <Deewiant> do you have classes for circles
19:19:37 <AnMaster> .p{fill:none;stroke-width:1e-4px;stroke-linecap:round;stroke-linejoin:round}
19:19:41 <AnMaster> path{fill:none;stroke-width:1e-4px;stroke-linecap:round;stroke-linejoin:round}
19:19:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you forgot the . in front to indicate this is a class
19:20:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and no I don't use a class for circles
19:20:11 <Deewiant> does it make a difference regarding loading, tho
19:20:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no idea, why don't you try yourself?
19:20:37 <Deewiant> because you're the one with the ulimit :-P
19:20:39 <AnMaster> <title>TURT picture generated by the Conforming Concurrent Befunge-98 Interpreter</title>
19:20:55 <Deewiant> you don't have to give me the output of diff here
19:21:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no difference in loading though
19:21:07 <Deewiant> only mention it if you think it makes a difference
19:21:39 <AnMaster> I waited 10 seconds before closing
19:21:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I also removed all circles before it didn't help
19:22:04 <AnMaster> so the path alone is enough to fuck it up
19:24:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does pass xmllint
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19:24:32 <AnMaster> too lazy to check w3c's validator
19:25:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do less indention than you
19:25:38 <AnMaster> <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" version="1.1" baseProfile="full" width="32.0000" height="12.0000" viewBox="-0.0001 -0.0006 0.0032 0.0012">
19:25:38 <AnMaster> <defs><style type="text/css"><![CDATA[path{fill:none;stroke-width:0.00005px;stroke-linecap:round;stroke-linejoin:miter}]]></style></defs>
19:25:57 <AnMaster> yes I now correctly set width and height
19:26:03 <Deewiant> like said, I use tango's XML generator
19:26:09 <AnMaster> I'm not sure why I have to multiply it by 10000
19:26:19 <AnMaster> but only when I do that do I get the correct size in inkscape
19:27:10 <Deewiant> using scientific notation -> ram usage boom
19:27:25 <Deewiant> is this a bug in every single SVG viewer out there? :-P
19:27:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess it is harder to parse?
19:27:54 <Deewiant> not so hard that it takes 100* more memory
19:28:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway you have solved your problem then
19:28:35 <AnMaster> now report this as a bug to inkscape ppl
19:28:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, certainly konqueror doesn't like scientific notation either
19:29:15 * AnMaster watch the spinning K as it tries to preview the image
19:29:45 <AnMaster> while the cfunge one takes maybe 10 seconds to create a preview from (yes konq 3.5.9 sucks at svg, it has problems with open/closed paths too)
19:31:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for the 255 line length limit , are you aware of that inkscape never puts a linebreak in a path?
19:31:43 <Deewiant> the spec says that some viewers have or may have restrictions so it's best to keep to 255 byte lines
19:31:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh be sure to use LF not CRLF even on windows, that will save a few bytes
19:31:56 <Deewiant> (rather, 10-path-node lines, but it's the same thing)
19:32:07 <Deewiant> nah, I stick to my platform :-)
19:32:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the file I wgeted from you was LF not CRLF
19:32:45 <Deewiant> yes, I know, I figured that if you checked the filesize you'd say I was wrong
19:32:52 <Deewiant> and that would have been because the filesize I quoted was LF
19:33:08 <Deewiant> but instead you come complaining to me that it's LF not CRLF, so that didn't work out too well
19:33:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well if that is what you quote, then that is what you shall use too
19:33:33 <Deewiant> of course I quoted the optimal filesize :-P
19:33:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm not complaining it is LF, I like it
19:34:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw you use 10 bit floats right?
19:35:04 <AnMaster> well cfunge now use 16-bit ones
19:35:14 <AnMaster> I changed to long double, on amd64 that use sse
19:35:34 <Deewiant> anyhoo, like said, real is the max the platform supports
19:35:39 <Deewiant> so it's just a compiler issue henceforth
19:35:54 <AnMaster> long double is in C99 so I can use it
19:36:05 <AnMaster> it is not part of C89 though iirc
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19:46:31 * ihope_ gives Slereah_ a tall sandwich
19:47:37 <Slereah_> But can you give me advices on how to recover data from a hard dive, which does notwork?
19:48:03 <ihope_> Well, now he has chewing room.
19:48:09 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I assume you got daily, or at least weekly backup?
19:48:23 <AnMaster> Slereah_, but first, is it a *hardware* error
19:48:30 <tusho> <AnMaster> Slereah_, I assume you got daily, or at least weekly backup?
19:48:49 <tusho> AnMaster: Expert tape backuper
19:48:50 <Slereah_> It says that I can't access the HD.
19:48:51 <AnMaster> Slereah_, boot from a good linux live cd
19:49:00 <tusho> FUN FACT: Most people don't do backups.
19:49:06 <AnMaster> Slereah_, checked with smart tools?
19:49:09 <Slereah_> It does not detect the HD either
19:49:24 <AnMaster> Slereah_, doesn't detect, what do you mean?
19:49:28 <tusho> AnMaster: It's hard to get the space.
19:49:29 <Slereah_> I barely know how to use Linux, I don't know what the fuck that means
19:49:47 <AnMaster> tusho, tapes got high density and aren't very expensive
19:50:08 <AnMaster> I need a total of 10 tapes that I change about once a year to new unused ones
19:50:15 <Slereah_> That's what the error message tells me when I try to open it.
19:50:16 <tusho> AnMaster: Backing up to a tape is totally trivial rite guyz
19:50:34 <Slereah_> Also some sort of message involving parameters.
19:50:36 <AnMaster> Slereah_, so ls /dev/hdb or whatever it is
19:51:07 <AnMaster> where hdx is the harddrive with issues
19:51:18 <AnMaster> boot from a livecd that has smartmontools
19:51:23 <AnMaster> Slereah_, want a link to a good one?
19:51:26 <Slereah_> Well, if your solution is Linux, we'll discuss that again on an occasion where I'm on the liveCD
19:51:46 <AnMaster> Slereah_, http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page
19:51:52 <AnMaster> Slereah_, and I can't give any windows help
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19:52:17 <AnMaster> Slereah_, why not boot to a livecd like that
19:52:47 <AnMaster> Slereah_, why not now, if you wanted help
19:53:03 <AnMaster> you don't care for the harddrive?
19:53:12 <AnMaster> Slereah_, until then please unplug the disk in that case
19:53:29 <AnMaster> to prevent further damage from the disk spinning if it is a hardware failure
19:54:02 <AnMaster> Slereah_, because if the disk is dying, well you don't have until "tomorrow" sometimes
19:54:12 <Slereah_> It's been down for months, AnMaster.
19:54:40 <AnMaster> Slereah_, well then it is likely too late already
19:55:27 <Slereah_> There are many Star Trek episodes at stake here, AnMaster.
19:55:58 <AnMaster> Slereah_, well I'm serious but you are not
19:57:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: BTW, re: SVG and doctypes and doctype-based validation: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/48562
19:57:35 <AnMaster> "Your browser is not accepting our cookies. To view this page, please set your browser preferences to accept cookies. (Code 0) "
19:58:29 <Slereah_> Well, I tried to save the HD many times.
19:58:39 <Slereah_> It's actually why I installed Linux in the first place.
19:58:42 <AnMaster> Slereah_, and I asked you two commands which you refused to run
19:59:12 <AnMaster> Slereah_, so reboot to a livecd if you want my help, I will not be here tomorrow mostly
19:59:26 <AnMaster> and next week I will be in Norway without computer or internet
20:01:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well give me xml schema then?
20:02:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also that was in 2005, and the w3c validator now have specific support for svg
20:02:20 <AnMaster> not saying it is perfect, but it is better than back then
20:07:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I checked by hand that my output is as well formed as yours
20:07:28 <AnMaster> apart from not using e notation
20:09:14 <Deewiant> Deewiant: what was interesting was rather that SVG developers consider that the doctype is useless
20:09:34 <Deewiant> of course, what we generate is so simple that it hardly matters either way
20:09:47 <Deewiant> I just thought it was interesting in general, not trying to bash you or anything
20:12:18 <Deewiant> but yeah, yay, TURT is finally done for ever now
20:12:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what fingerprint's next for you
20:15:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe SOCK, don't know
20:15:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, currently I'm in bug fixes only before next release
20:15:56 <AnMaster> unless I fork to a branch and trunk (have only done feature branches so far)
20:16:27 <Deewiant> one excuse that I haven't updated the mycology results page is that you still haven't released a version which is done so far as (mycology-tested) fingerprints are concerned ;-)
20:16:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well some I won't implement, and some I may implement later
20:17:12 <AnMaster> but yes I plan a mostly stable release in the near future
20:17:14 <Deewiant> yeah, so one excuse for me is your "may implement later" part
20:17:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what? you could just update it next year
20:17:37 <Deewiant> yeah, I said it's an excuse, not a good reason :-P
20:17:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I got other open source projects to
20:17:50 <AnMaster> like implement new socket engine for crossfire
20:17:56 <AnMaster> which is what I will do after this release
20:18:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the first mmorpg, first line of code written back in 1992
20:18:25 <AnMaster> I'm a developer on it since a few months
20:19:01 <Deewiant> I beg to differ on "the first"
20:19:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really? what one was before?
20:19:39 <Deewiant> if you count MUDs, the first were in the late 70s I think
20:19:43 <AnMaster> MMORPG, certainly not the first RPG or the first MMO game, but could you give an example of a older MMORPG
20:19:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a MUD isn't a MMORPG
20:20:04 <Deewiant> but like said, even if you don't think so, LORD
20:21:05 <Deewiant> if you need a modem to play it counts as online.
20:21:06 <Slereah_> I will now reboot to der Linux.
20:21:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well crossfire is the first graphical MMORPG then
20:21:54 <tusho> AnMaster: that's not a huge achivement
20:22:44 <Deewiant> Neverwinter Nights was earlier
20:23:07 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)
20:23:29 <Deewiant> crossfire may be the first /graphical and open-source/ one though
20:23:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it was certainly an early one
20:23:48 <tusho> Deewiant: ah yes neverwinter nights
20:23:59 <tusho> Deewiant: lol, though
20:24:03 <tusho> the first graphical, open-source MMORPG!
20:24:06 <tusho> what an amazing accomplishment!
20:24:13 <tusho> that's totally not highly specific!
20:24:41 <Deewiant> like cfunge, the first C99 Befunge-98 interpreter ;-)
20:24:45 <AnMaster> tusho, certainly nethack wasn't the first rouge, yet wouldn't you call it a game with a long and deep history
20:24:59 <tusho> Deewiant: AnMaster is full of new ideas
20:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, according you your mycology page the first conforming befunge98 one in C
20:25:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or the second conforming one at all
20:25:30 <tusho> We all know compilers have impeccable C99 support
20:25:47 <AnMaster> tusho, it should be possible to convert it to c89, tell me when you are done
20:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that can be replaced with malloced buffers
20:26:38 <AnMaster> same for variable sized arrays at end of structs (which I do use)
20:26:41 <Deewiant> so you do? hmm, that's an exploit waiting to happen
20:27:04 <Deewiant> the stack only has so much size, namely
20:27:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed, which is why I no longer use it
20:27:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, while variable sized struct is perfectly ok on the heap
20:28:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for VLAs on the stack, there are certain safe contexts for it, when you know the range
20:29:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but no I don't use it at all I think
20:29:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do use a few *static* buffers on the heap though
20:29:43 <AnMaster> where I read a file in chunks of 1024 bytes for example
20:30:35 <tusho> AnMaster: have you fuzz-tested cfunge?
20:30:54 <AnMaster> tusho, the script is in the cfunge bzr repo
20:31:14 <tusho> it's a befunge interpreter
20:31:17 <AnMaster> tusho, I found quite a few bugs that way
20:31:40 <tusho> I like how AnMaster's befunge interpreter uses more hyper-optimizing POSIX functions than extremely popular (& in need of speed) languages like Python or Ruby.
20:31:46 <tusho> It's deliciously ridiculous.
20:31:57 <Deewiant> I forget, did you only find bugs that caused segfaults or others as well
20:32:03 <AnMaster> tusho, yes you just didn't see the "~"
20:32:11 <AnMaster> I think it is in the spirit of the language
20:32:30 <Deewiant> tusho: the difference is, Guido and Matz know where the optimizations apply and where they don't, and where they're just pointless.
20:32:45 <tusho> (It's a hyper-optimized ++)
20:33:00 <tusho> Deewiant @repeat ++
20:33:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well segfaults and valgrind errors, and once iirc a bug happened to happen as well in the same function
20:33:19 <AnMaster> but yes in general only segfaults and valgrind errors
20:33:46 <tusho> <tusho> > var $ "Deewiant" ++ cycle "++"
20:33:46 <tusho> <lambdabot> Deewiant++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...
20:33:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but of course they help other stuff too, like when 5kt caused errors, or when 2k@ did
20:34:02 <Deewiant> tusho: yes, I am on #haskell. :-)
20:34:14 <tusho> yes but I wanted AnMaster to see
20:34:50 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I have been thinking of porting it to quantum computers for additional speed.
20:34:55 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you think of that?
20:36:26 <AnMaster> anyway a quantum fingerprint could be interesting
20:36:48 <Deewiant> use MPI so that you can run multiple threads on multiple machines
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20:38:30 <AnMaster> Slereah-, try the one I suggested
20:38:38 <AnMaster> Slereah-, http://www.sysresccd.org/
20:38:45 <tusho> AnMaster: Dirty as in LITERALLY DIRT.
20:39:11 <AnMaster> Slereah-, but if he is burning a new anyway
20:39:45 <tusho> Deewiant: Dude, shapr.
20:39:49 <tusho> Dude, he's addicted to dude.
20:39:51 <tusho> Dude, he hates spam.
20:40:33 <Slereah-> AnMaster : Once I boot that CD, what do I do?
20:40:41 <AnMaster> Slereah-, same commands as before
20:40:42 <tusho> Slereah-: Come here.
20:40:46 <Slereah-> Because from the look of it, I won't have the interwebs with it
20:40:55 <Slereah-> Is there interbutts on that CDN
20:40:57 <AnMaster> tusho, no idea if it got irc client
20:41:11 <AnMaster> tusho, could Slereah- manage that?
20:41:24 <tusho> Slereah-: Get a pen and paper.
20:41:34 <AnMaster> http://www.sysresccd.org/Detailed-packages-list
20:41:45 <tusho> '/server irc.freenode.net'
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20:42:06 <AnMaster> Slereah-, if you use wlan you could have issues
20:42:07 <tusho> (In a kommunistline, of course.)
20:42:32 <AnMaster> Slereah-, "better connect to ethernet" issues
20:42:43 <AnMaster> as in wlan may not work out of box
20:42:52 <AnMaster> that is way more likely to work
20:43:14 <Slereah-> I don't understand a word of it.
20:43:36 <AnMaster> Slereah-, do you use wireless network?
20:43:57 <AnMaster> Slereah-, try using cable network instead
20:44:26 <AnMaster> Slereah-, wireless network may have issues with drivers that would require some linux knowledge to solve
20:44:32 <Slereah-> What, you want me to find a giant cable and somehow plug it in the Livebox in the next room?
20:44:55 <Slereah-> It's not because I like it that I'm on wireless.
20:45:19 <AnMaster> Slereah-, well if internet doesn't work, anyway why not just boot directly to an ubuntu install or such
20:45:24 <AnMaster> then from there connect to irc
20:45:47 <tusho> Slereah-: Dude. Livebox.
20:45:49 <tusho> I have one of those.
20:45:49 <AnMaster> Slereah-, then I can tell you what packages to install and what to run and such
20:45:51 <tusho> Shittiest router ever.
20:46:19 <Slereah-> AnMaster, are you suggesting using a LiveCD or reinstalling Linux?
20:46:29 <AnMaster> Slereah-, you don't have linux any longer?
20:46:40 <AnMaster> I suggest installing ubuntu or kubuntu
20:46:40 <Slereah-> As explained before, I still have it
20:46:52 <Slereah-> But during the last windows reinstalling
20:47:00 <Slereah-> It removed the dual booting I had installed
20:47:08 <AnMaster> tusho, you help him to reinstall dual boot!
20:47:17 <AnMaster> I can only do it by hand with grub
20:47:20 <Slereah-> When I tried to put it back on, with the hard drive stuff, I had a giant ass error.
20:47:41 <Slereah-> I can't work on my partitions anymore for some reason
20:48:04 <Slereah-> Plus, it's the main hard drive.
20:48:06 <AnMaster> Slereah-, just reinstall ubuntu or something then
20:48:09 <Slereah-> So it's probably not a good sign
20:48:36 <Slereah-> (This is why I'm anxious to get that new computer)
20:48:43 <AnMaster> Slereah-, it may work with wireless
20:48:59 <Slereah-> Well, Linux does work with wireless.
20:49:01 <AnMaster> Slereah-, if it doesn,t get a long ethernet cable I guess
20:49:11 <AnMaster> Slereah-, yes it does, but it is sometimes not trivial to get working
20:49:27 <AnMaster> Slereah-, it depend on what livecd and such too
20:50:06 <AnMaster> Slereah-, systemrescuecd will need you to activate it yourself from command line I suspect
20:50:15 <AnMaster> something I don't know how, as I don't use wireless myself
20:50:40 <AnMaster> Slereah-, get kubuntu or whatever working again
20:50:55 <AnMaster> Slereah-, trying to recover from inside windows will *NOT* work
20:51:17 <Slereah-> I don't want to lose my datas on windows by reinstalling Linux.
20:51:30 <AnMaster> Slereah-, anyway if it is only star trek movies, why not just torrent them
20:52:10 <AnMaster> torrenting copyrighted material is illegal
20:54:05 <AnMaster> well I'm just a bit careful, "Note that I didn't suggest that" style
20:55:28 <tusho> AnMaster: you're liek the anti-fuck man i'm haf
20:55:53 <AnMaster> Slereah-, the 4chan Partyvan who?
20:56:06 <tusho> "yeah, I was on drugs when I wrote that" "I may or may not have been under the influence of halluciogenic effects when I wrote that message. Note that I don't support the use of drugs in any way or form"
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20:56:15 <Slereah-> Don't you know the partyvan AnMaster?
20:56:31 <AnMaster> Slereah-, no but I know you ruined the "knock knock" joke
20:56:51 <AnMaster> (which IMO is a rather bad joke anyway)
20:57:24 <Slereah-> YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER FORGET D:
20:57:31 <tusho> HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
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20:57:59 <tusho> AnMaster: the only funny knock knock jokes are the irregular ones
20:58:05 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-knock_joke
20:58:13 <AnMaster> tusho, well I think this one was macabre
20:58:23 <tusho> Because people DIED.
20:58:30 <tusho> They DIED and therefore you can NEVER joke about it.
20:58:39 <tusho> It's INSULTING to the people who don't have MINDS any more.
20:58:55 <AnMaster> tusho, not saying that, but how would you feel about joking about if your father died or so?
20:59:07 <AnMaster> well you may not be 12, but you sometimes do act like it
20:59:07 <tusho> AnMaster: It was in 2-thousand-and-fucking-1.
20:59:16 <oklopol> how would that make the joke less funny?
20:59:21 <Slereah-> Actually, my dad often jokes about his cancer :o
20:59:24 <tusho> If it was September 12st, you could get away with 'TOO SOON'
20:59:37 <AnMaster> Slereah-, anyway what did you want?
20:59:50 <tusho> Anyone have a joke about hitler and jews? AnMaster will die of shock.
21:00:20 <tusho> Slereah-: I don't know how did he die.
21:00:22 <tusho> oklopol: Who's there.
21:00:25 <AnMaster> tusho, I will find it bad taste
21:00:34 <oklopol> tusho: hitler killed a lot of jews
21:00:48 <tusho> Slereah-: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
21:00:51 <tusho> oklopol: HAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
21:01:11 <Slereah-> But I had no time to find an awesome one.
21:02:12 <tusho> oklopol: You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I've done for you ... what did I do wrong? Why have you done this to me? My life is worthless. I spend every day crying until I can't cry any more. I am going to fucking kill myself. Then this will all be over.
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21:02:35 <oklopol> tusho: You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I've done for you ... what did I do wrong? Why have you done this to me? My life is worthless. I spend every day crying until I can't cry any more. I am going to fucking kill myself. Then this will all be over. who?
21:02:57 <AnMaster> Slereah-, anyway what did you want really?
21:03:07 <tusho> You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I've done for you ... what did I do wrong? Why have you done this to me? My life is worthless. I spend every day crying until I can't cry any more. I am going to fucking kill myself. Then this will all be over my shepard!
21:03:08 <Slereah-> What do you mean by this, AnMaster
21:03:45 <AnMaster> Slereah-, I assume you did the highlight above for some other reason that just a knock knock joke...
21:03:48 <tusho> oklopol: yeah I know
21:04:27 <Slereah-> Well, the partyvan means, on internet grounds, the FBI.
21:04:39 <Slereah-> It was a joke to refer to your mention of illegal download
21:04:51 <AnMaster> Slereah-, I see, well I don't go on 4chan
21:05:23 <AnMaster> Slereah-, yes, it's sad freenode doesn't offer ssl
21:06:12 <AnMaster> Slereah-, offers encrypted connection
21:06:39 <AnMaster> Slereah-, first hit is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Sockets_Layer here
21:07:03 <Slereah-> Then again, you answered in 30 seconds.
21:07:09 <Slereah-> So it probably was quicker to ask.
21:07:21 <AnMaster> well that is the wrong attitude
21:07:51 <tusho> It's the wrong attitude, mister Slereah-!
21:07:53 <tusho> You'd better behave.
21:07:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and yet, you always ask me things about D that you could easily look up from the spec. :-)
21:08:04 <ihope_> You fucking ruined my life. God, why did you cheat on me? After all I'--wait, what?
21:08:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well nobody is perfect
21:09:40 <Slereah-> (I also by the way don't understand why you mention ssl here)
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21:35:35 <ihope_> tusho: should I refrain from mentioning rootnomic entirely, or just from pestering you about it?
21:36:03 <tusho> ihope_: Pestering.
21:36:11 <tusho> And mentioning it just to make me work on it.
21:47:35 <Slereah-> Not enough disk space to burn the CD
21:52:49 <AnMaster> Slereah-, free up some diskspace
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21:54:58 <Slereah-> I can round up enough free space, but that usually mean uninstalling adobe reader and such
22:01:51 <Slereah-> I leave you with this : http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/guest5/scottmale42.png
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