00:00:40 <ihope> It'll output 12, I believe.
00:00:55 <tusho> ihope: I mean the prorgam
00:04:07 <oklopol> i haven't met a nontrivial level yet
00:04:17 <oklopol> but i'm not at the hard ones yet, so shouldn't be surprising
00:05:00 <tusho> oklopol: I need halp with 7
00:07:18 <tusho> but I get a pime taradox
00:07:22 <tusho> because the other makes him too low
00:07:25 <tusho> to get back to the pod with a jump
00:07:28 <tusho> and I can't jump off fast enough
00:10:53 <oklopol> psygnisfive: didn't you say you've beaten them all?
00:11:18 <oklopol> 01:47… psygnisfive: all levels
00:11:25 <oklopol> you were talking about the timeing
00:12:02 <oklopol> you just go up&right to the button
00:12:17 <oklopol> and another guy is high on the leftmost rising thingie
00:12:30 <oklopol> and jumps on the see-saw to whip another one in the air
00:12:45 <psygnisfive> yeah but i cant get the seesaw to push me high enough
00:13:10 <oklopol> you need to have the leftmost lift as high as it goes
00:13:28 <oklopol> and the guy on it will jump about as high as you dropped onto it from
00:16:35 <ihope> Oh, wow. That walkthrough video for level 7 makes it look really difficult. :-)
00:16:51 <tusho> I haven't used the walkthroughs
00:17:24 <tusho> oklopol: click 'walkthrough'
00:18:31 <oklopol> actually, what this game needs is a speed-up key
00:18:50 <oklopol> ironically it's the only button left out
00:20:56 <oklopol> also, about interactivity, you could let the player have as many copies as he likes, and let him choose what player to move, and how much
00:21:02 <oklopol> and you could do this as long as you'd like
00:21:04 <tusho> how do i get to the thing I need
00:21:11 <oklopol> i mean, you could do in any order
00:21:33 <oklopol> you were just doing 19, can the levels be skipped? :P
00:22:55 <tusho> how do you get to the chip
00:25:30 <tusho> i need halp oklopol
00:25:39 <oklopol> i only like figuring things out "from the inside", meaning i don't actually have to react with the world when solving.
00:26:19 <oklopol> tusho: there are just two things your first guy can do
00:26:28 <oklopol> can you figure those out? only one is non trivial
00:26:33 <oklopol> psygnisfive: passed or are there?
00:26:38 <tusho> use the box to go to the button and press it.
00:27:04 <oklopol> the next guy jumps to the forwarder and beats the level
00:27:16 <oklopol> you have to *think* two guys at once, even when just moving one
00:27:50 <tusho> oklopol: i can't get the datachip I need, dude
00:29:51 <tusho> its too high oklopol
00:29:59 <tusho> even jumping from a bawx
00:30:07 <oklopol> jump from something higher
00:30:15 <oklopol> how do you get a box higher?
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00:30:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: when you get 22, help me @ it
00:31:19 <oklopol> i can't get up if i get down
00:31:31 <oklopol> so atm, i have to figure out how to pass that without going down.
00:32:06 <tusho> oklopol: how do you get a box higher?
00:32:54 <oklopol> aha, you can stand on the bomb
00:33:12 <oklopol> games should tell all this data, i hate not knowing what to do.
00:33:41 <tusho> oklopol: even jumping off a lifted box
00:34:19 <oklopol> the box is on top of a guy
00:34:23 <oklopol> how do you get a guy higher?
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00:36:01 <oklopol> lvl 22 needs two guys, psygnisfive
00:36:10 <oklopol> and you don't need patience
00:36:18 <oklopol> you need to know you can jump onto the bomb :<
00:41:17 <oklopol> @ 25, again, i simply don't know a way to get back up if i fall down, and if i don't, i can't do anything.
00:41:34 <oklopol> http://scarybuggames.com/2008/05/chronotron/
00:41:39 <oklopol> a trivial time travel game
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00:42:03 <tusho> i need help with level 11, oklopol
00:43:22 <oklopol> psygnisfive: only if you know boxes fall after a few seconds when you stand on the button.
00:43:46 <psygnisfive> the first thing i did was stand on the button a few seconds. lol
00:44:06 <oklopol> i stand on it until i know what it does
00:44:35 <oklopol> tusho: well, you need to get the block down
00:44:46 <oklopol> actually not sure if you do
00:45:08 <oklopol> and jump down, prolly need to have the box
00:45:17 <oklopol> and another guy is on the other side of the see-saw
00:45:55 <oklopol> psygnisfive: anyway, if you happen to stand on the button for more than two seconds, the level is trivial, otherwise it's trivially impossible
00:46:36 <oklopol> once i found out about the boxes
00:50:21 <tusho> I pime taradox'd 12.
00:50:26 <tusho> Well, they all got back.
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00:53:07 <oklopol> every level is so fucking trivial :<
00:57:19 <oklopol> except i tried a different thing first
00:59:17 <oklopol> let's just say stealing is never the answer
01:01:12 <oklopol> damn this game, need to stand still for half a minute just to realize you've been standing in the wrong spot
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01:14:05 <oklopol> it was trivial once the glitch didn't happen
01:15:45 <oklopol> hmph, i accidentally took another guy in, when i was trying to enter the exit
01:15:55 <oklopol> and the glitch started happening again :)
01:18:24 <oklopol> perhaps it was the way i was doing it
01:18:43 <oklopol> the box, when falling on a door, usually stays in the air
01:18:56 <oklopol> and waits for the block to pass from under it
01:19:08 <oklopol> about every fourth try, it didn't happen
01:19:21 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure nondeterminism is a bug in a game like this
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01:19:49 <oklopol> wonder if these require some thought
01:21:44 <psygnisfive> 28 pisses me off because the floor only sometimes catches the block
01:22:40 <oklopol> 29 could easily be the first level of this game
01:22:53 <oklopol> it's so straight-forward i'm not even sure what i did
01:28:56 <oklopol> okay, 30 seems to be a bit hard.
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01:29:30 <psygnisfive> i cant get past it due to that fucking bug
01:33:08 <oklopol> okay, 30 is trivial, but it misleads you.
01:36:15 <psygnisfive> also, i think the gam engine has trouble with paradoxes
01:36:27 <tusho> it doesn't actually time travel
01:36:30 <tusho> it just does some sanity checks
01:36:34 <tusho> 'that guy should really be in there by now'
01:36:41 <tusho> '(skips forward simulation 10 days) bah, he's still not in'
01:36:46 <tusho> 'HAY U GOT PIME TARADOX'
01:40:11 <oklopol> okay, it seems the "impossible" puzzles are hard mainly because they're fucking misleading.
01:40:42 <oklopol> "oh did we forget to mention this thing you've seen 100 times and which kills you, works differently in this level?"
01:44:03 <psygnisfive> its like that insane modification of super mario brothers
01:44:10 <psygnisfive> where all the places you need to jump have invisible blocks
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02:00:36 <oklopol> okay, 32 is genuinely hard.
02:04:27 <oklopol> okay, it was actually simple
02:04:34 <oklopol> but it definitely wasn't trivial
02:20:59 <oklopol> could even be called a level.
02:32:31 <oklopol> a few of the last ones required about a minute of though even after knowing everything about the triggers
02:33:01 <oklopol> but the think/do ratio of that game is so small i wouldn't really recommend it for anything but a monkey
02:33:24 <oklopol> cuz monkeys like doing repetitive things?
02:34:14 <oklopol> i don't have time for that, it's half past 4
02:35:42 <oklopol> i thought 33 was rather nice and clean
02:36:04 <oklopol> it's like hippity-hop-hoppity
02:36:25 <oklopol> wonder if you could get something to eat at this a.m.
02:36:45 <oklopol> there's a place near here that's supposedly open till 5
02:36:51 <oklopol> it says that on their door
02:37:02 <oklopol> but i've tried 3 times now, and they've always been closed all night
02:37:13 <oklopol> perhaps i should try once more
02:39:37 <oerjan> at least here the fast food places often have open longer during weekends
02:40:50 <oerjan> of course 7/11 is _always_ open, and has some food
02:46:23 <pikhq> "Thank you, come again".
02:57:33 <oerjan> time travel does tend to do that
02:57:59 <psygnisfive> i literally spent the last 5 or 6 hours on it
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03:07:40 <ihope> I'm glad I got bored before finishing level 7. :-P
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06:38:25 <GregorR> <oerjan> of course 7/11 is _always_ open, and has some food
06:38:29 <GregorR> Depends on your definition of "food"
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13:25:51 <oklopol> my befunge interp isn't working :<
13:26:28 <oklopol> mostly because i didn't test the intermediate versions, but implemented all at once, and am now testing a bigger program right away
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14:23:13 <AnMaster> <oklopol> mostly because i didn't test the intermediate versions, but implemented all at once, and am now testing a bigger program right away
14:24:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, I guess you should check out an earlier revision, fix any errors in it, then port those fixes forward
14:24:51 <AnMaster> then go back and do the same a bit later
14:28:26 <augur> hey dont call oklopol dumb! >|
14:28:56 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't use a VCS, i may be dumb, but i'm not a loser.
14:29:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, well not using a vcs is loosing
14:29:58 * AnMaster would go as far as calling oklopol a moron for not using something like mercurial, bzr, darcs, svn, cvs or even git
14:30:24 <oklopol> well do go, i don't give that many shits :D
14:31:11 <oklopol> i've never not been able to track an error, and i've never installed a vcs
14:31:26 <oklopol> with python, i don't make errors really, so even less use for a vcs
14:32:41 <oklopol> and no matter how useful it is to use a vcs, a true coder does not use one imo.
14:33:12 <oklopol> i like to write my program, and a boolean output of success
14:33:18 <oklopol> i like to write my program, and debug with a boolean output of success
14:34:39 <oklopol> also a good enough reason for me not to use a vcs is people saying i should, fuck those idiots
14:43:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, you MUST NOT use a vcs
14:58:00 <augur> ::murders anmaster::
15:00:35 <oklopol> he's very protective of me
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16:35:17 <tusho> oklopol: how did you survive that
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17:25:52 <augur> you killed oklopol!
17:26:03 <augur> ::pounces oklopolor::
17:55:15 <augur> oklopol are you a fur?
17:55:17 <augur> you should be a fur
18:00:30 <oklopolor> and now, I assumed you were talking to me, although perhaps that wasn't the case
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18:37:10 <tusho> odd to see you arrive so late
18:37:35 <ais523> for both the fact I'm here late, and the fact I'm here on Sunday
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18:44:18 <tusho> http://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/Labo/Dale.Miller/lolli/lolli_seq.gif This is the logo of a language called 'Lolli'.
18:44:22 <tusho> That must be intentional.
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18:55:45 <tusho> Say, I should get around to properly rewriting that Underload compiler
18:56:04 <ais523> incidentally, I'm thinking about a new lang which is a cross between Underload and Befunge
18:56:21 <ais523> although I won't discuss it much further until after the ICFP contest
19:00:09 <augur> no real interesting paradigms huh? :(
19:00:20 <ais523> you didn't like SMETANA?
19:01:09 <ais523> what about Flip? I don't know much about it but it's got a pretty interesting paradigm
19:02:06 <tusho> i don't think augur actually likes esolangs.
19:02:15 <ihope> How durst thou disturb my slumber?
19:02:23 <ais523> I don't think OscarMeyr likes my INTERCAL style either...
19:02:43 <tusho> ais523: i informed him that too many more PLEASEs would make it not compile
19:03:02 <augur> tusho: i wasnt asking about esolangs when i asked about interesting paradigms
19:03:15 <augur> not that i like these either
19:03:17 <tusho> augur: guess what, all the new and interesting paradigms are generally esoteric
19:03:21 <ais523> augur: new paradigms generally end up in esolangs first
19:03:27 <augur> sure but these are uninteresting. :P
19:03:31 <ais523> augur: have you seen J?
19:03:46 <ais523> that's not very esoteric, and an unusualish paradigm
19:04:16 <ais523> also Mathematica takes its paradigm to extreme levels, although other langs use bits of it, I don't really like Mathematica though
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19:04:49 <augur> j can be a bit hard to read but
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19:18:14 <tusho> Oh, MacVim is nice.
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19:22:22 <tusho> ais523: Any snappy name for the UL->C compiler?
19:22:40 <ais523> not that I can think of right now
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20:06:57 <tusho> ais523: Is your ICFP entry open source?
20:06:59 <tusho> That'd be something.
20:07:09 <ais523> tusho: it will be after the contest ends
20:07:13 <tusho> it'd totally change the contest climate if everything was open source
20:07:19 <tusho> for the better i think
20:08:14 <tusho> people would continually build upon each others work
20:08:22 <tusho> and then people would take someone's derivation back and merge it in, etc
20:08:31 <tusho> and loads of fun stuff
20:08:42 <ais523> tusho: you mean source published during the contest?
20:13:35 <tusho> ais523: someone made a whole website about spectateswamp
20:13:36 <tusho> http://www.spectateswamp.com/
20:13:46 <ais523> tusho: yes, I came across that before you
20:13:57 <tusho> totally over the top, and I like that
20:14:14 <ais523> two whole websites, in fact
20:15:11 <ais523> from memory, http://thestupidestmanintheuniverse.com, but I never visited it partly because I thought the name was a bit unfair
20:15:23 <ais523> SpectateSwamp is at least intelligent enough to write VB, after all
20:15:43 <tusho> ais523: i don't see any incompatibility ;)
20:15:57 <tusho> probably: http://thestupidestmanonearth.com/
20:16:07 <tusho> http://www.thestupidestmanonearth.com/
20:16:08 <tusho> it's the same site
20:16:41 <ais523> I can't believe that someone actually went to the trouble of buying that name simply to spread anti-SSDS FUD, though...
20:17:00 <tusho> I think it's great :p. But, ssds?
20:17:40 <ais523> tusho: SpectateSwamp's Desktop Search
20:17:50 <ais523> the program that started the whole thread in the first place
20:17:52 <tusho> ah, is that the video thing
20:18:19 <ais523> it's like a video player + grep with a more confusing interface
20:25:32 <tusho> ais523: SS' biography is epic
20:25:33 <tusho> { Swampie's future plans are detailed and well established in his mind. Basing his belief on an ancient and little-used calender system, it is Mr Pederson's conviction that the world is due to end in 2012. Whilst a belief in the world ending imminently would have crushed lesser men, Spectate thinks that due to his self-proclaimed 'Shaman' status and 'magic' stones, he can and will literally 'dance the problem away'. Whether he will be able to do so is yet t
20:30:08 <SimonRC> ah, the swampthing from TDWTF forums
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20:30:36 <SimonRC> <plug>thedailywtf.com is funny! visit it!</plug>
20:32:16 <tusho> it's not that funny any more.
20:32:28 <ais523> tusho: it is often funny, I find
20:32:31 <ais523> I still read every article
20:32:40 <ais523> and MfD has improved to the point it's occasionally slightly amusing
20:33:30 <SimonRC> the mutilations of it are funnier
20:33:47 <SimonRC> a former employer of mine were on there once
20:34:12 <tusho> ais523: mfd ... amusing?
20:34:23 <tusho> ok, someone kill ais523, or he'll start imitating mfd in the future
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20:34:27 <ais523> they replaced it with something utterly unlike the previous one
20:34:30 <ais523> but yes, the imitations are better
20:34:32 <tusho> and you don't want to know what happens when he does that
20:34:43 <SimonRC> mfd 2.0, now with artistic ability!
20:35:17 <ais523> the only sort of art I do is the output of mathematical algorithms
20:35:17 <SimonRC> so how would he imitate it?
20:35:31 <ais523> and esolangs of course, they're art too
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20:37:36 <ais523> or evening from my point of view
20:37:55 <SimonRC> I had some kind fof esolang dream
20:38:58 <SimonRC> all I can remember was that the first action any non-trivial program had to take was to get the hastable of all variables and stuff it into a macro quick, before it disappeared
20:39:10 <SimonRC> and that doesn't really make sense
20:39:22 <ais523> it might do in a rewriting lang
20:39:49 <tusho> INTERCAL-produced music, I hope
20:39:55 <tusho> about INTERCAL, and sounding like INTERCAL
20:39:56 <ais523> no, I write music for fun
20:39:56 <oklopol> i like the "quick, before before it disappears" idea :P
20:40:21 <tusho> SimonRC: that's great
20:40:29 <ais523> oklopol: there is a before before it disappears, that's where you get ready to delete it in the time before it disappears
20:41:27 <tusho> ais523: hmph, I just wrote a 46 line underload parser
20:41:34 <tusho> that's a bit better than what we got before ...
20:41:44 <tusho> and pretty trivially
20:41:48 <ais523> oh, it does other things than parsing
20:42:00 <ais523> I thought 46 was a bit excessive given that Underload and Brainfuck are equally easy to parse
20:42:17 <tusho> http://paste.lisp.org/display/63637
20:43:26 <SimonRC> (maybe a lang with a really enthusiastic garbage collector?)
20:43:41 <SimonRC> (one must keep two references to everything around to prevent collection)
20:43:46 <ais523> SimonRC: maybe a lang where all objects needed at least 2 references to them to prevent collection
20:43:56 <tusho> just 'two references' seems kinda sucky
20:44:01 <ais523> it must be a good idea in that case
20:44:01 <tusho> it should be relative to how many references to everything there are
20:44:09 <tusho> so you had to continually try and add more references
20:44:13 <ais523> tusho: maybe a number of references proportional to the object's value and complexity
20:44:14 <tusho> or it'd come and get you
20:44:20 <ais523> so a large hashtable would need, say ten
20:44:23 <tusho> ais523: yes, but you shouldn't just be able to get it right then leave it
20:44:27 <ais523> in addition to all the internal references it had
20:44:27 <SimonRC> maybe there must be a reference on the heap, and stack ones don't count
20:44:30 <tusho> you should have to stay wary over time
20:44:34 <ais523> tusho: most objects grow over time
20:44:40 <ais523> at least, most big objects
20:45:02 <ais523> but people would end up creating a web of objects each of which referenced everything else and also each other
20:45:04 <tusho> ais523: like the parser?
20:45:07 <ais523> and use malloc-like functions to manage memory
20:45:09 <tusho> i tried to make it as haskelly as possible
20:45:35 <ais523> and that is just a parser, and it would take 45 lines to parse Brainfuck the same way...
20:45:42 * tusho writes a deparse :: [AST] -> String
20:45:50 <tusho> ais523: yes, but remember our other haskell one
20:45:55 <tusho> the parser was hideous and going on 100 lines
20:46:40 <ais523> anyway, when I get round to speccing it, I think you'll like Shove (my Befunge-Underload hybrid)
20:46:51 <ais523> it's the first lang in which I've ever used INTERCAL quotes to make things easier
20:47:16 <ais523> undirected quotes help a lot in two dimensions, what happens if you hit a paren from underneath, for instance?
20:47:39 <ais523> you can just use '" and "' as ( and ) respectively to simulate parens
20:49:50 <tusho> What's insane, is to bury textual information in video files. - SpectateSwap
20:49:54 <tusho> isn't that what he reccomends?
20:51:29 <ais523> AnMaster: if you're actually there, I'm in a situation where I could actually benefit from the C speed tricks of yours tusho doesn't like
20:51:41 <ais523> I'm already using register and inline where appropriate, anything else I should do?
20:51:55 <ais523> s/actually// (the first one)
20:51:58 <tusho> ais523: i like it when justified
20:52:09 <tusho> i don't like it when it's a befunge compiler more optimised than python and ruby
20:52:12 <ais523> like ICFP in a realtime-performance problem, yes
20:52:16 <ais523> and s/compiler/interpreter/
20:52:23 <tusho> (deewiant's quote on this was good, it was basically: guido and matz know when the optimisations actually _apply_)
20:52:31 <ais523> ick is a Befunge 'compiler' but it just bundles an interpreter
20:52:38 <ais523> tusho: I like the Rules of Optimisation
20:52:41 <ais523> First rule: Don't do it.
20:52:46 <ais523> Second rule: Don't do it /yet/.
20:53:08 <ais523> The third rule is: Don't do it until you've figured out, by testing, what bit actually needs optimising
20:53:16 <ais523> but that one isn't as funny, although still just as important
20:53:22 <tusho> Foruth rule: Don't do it.
20:54:34 <tusho> ais523: it occurs to me that the only actual hard bit (to write) about compiling underload is the 'unrolling'
20:54:59 <ais523> of course a parser in C does that for you, more or less, with the pointers
20:55:09 <tusho> oklopol: basically
20:55:36 <SimonRC> maybe, if one can do some sort of dataflow analysis on underload, quoted things can be turned into actual control structures
20:55:46 <tusho> by replacing nested structures
20:55:48 <tusho> with references to another
20:56:06 <tusho> you use this because you can't get proper nested functions in c
20:56:12 <tusho> so you compile each unrolled element seperately
20:56:59 <tusho> it's pretty hard to write neatly in source
20:57:03 <tusho> i think I can do it, though :p
20:57:19 <tusho> each unrolled element is called a blimp, btw
20:57:48 <SimonRC> yes, lol at the "blimp" terminology
20:58:09 <ais523> tusho: Underload will compile into Shove too, I think
20:58:11 <tusho> it was a spur of the moment thing!
20:58:33 * tusho wonders how to open a file in the same directory as the current one in vim easily
21:03:18 <tusho> SimonRC: vim doesn't change dir to the dir of your current file
21:03:21 <tusho> that'd be confusing with tabs
21:14:39 <tusho> ais523: ([[Enclose],[Enclose,Blimp 0,Enclose]],[Enclose,Blimp 1,Enclose])
21:14:47 <tusho> technically it's right.
21:14:50 <tusho> but it's the wrong way around.
21:16:06 <ais523> you can work with that, though?
21:17:15 <tusho> ais523: yes, but I like nice numbering, so i'll tweak
21:17:18 <tusho> also - (10,000 lines of Visual Basic code in One routine)
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21:48:53 <SimonRC> Co-incidentally, there was an article on rgrd that mentionned how the most fun amature games in a certain BASIC dialect tended to be 10000 lines in one routine.
21:50:19 <oerjan> <GregorR> Depends on your definition of "food"
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21:50:57 <oerjan> i'm speaking of the norwegian part of 7-eleven here. it may be different elsewhere
21:52:11 <oerjan> (the scandinavian parts are licensed to a company (Reitan group) based here in trondheim)
21:52:14 <tusho> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tusho&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a tusho's are appearing
21:52:23 <tusho> (yahoo answers, something called 'piczo')
21:52:27 <tusho> better start registering places
21:54:12 <oerjan> (although this does not seem to include finland afaict)
21:56:47 <oerjan> GregorR: ^^^ slight followup to yesterday
22:01:35 <tusho> ais523: can I randomly prod you about wikipedia administrative matters, I keep seeing drama whenever I click to a meta-page from a page without any real explanation of what actually happened
22:01:44 <tusho> you're a wp administrator so obviously ominipotent
22:01:48 <ais523> tusho: ok, but in a query or another channel
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22:07:07 <GregorR> oerjan: Suffice to say that 7/11 is not a place you go for food in the US ... sure, they advertise food, and they sell antacids so you can eat their food, but it's not a happy experience.
22:08:32 <tusho> Deranged in-denial spammer from #haskell has conversation. http://rafb.net/p/10WLBR49.txt
22:10:25 <oerjan> a place like that would probably not be able to survive in norway. we're so rich no one can sell cheap lousy food here :D
22:10:37 <tusho> GregorR: More batshit insane:
22:10:38 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/xgGJRI55.txt
22:15:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: if you're actually there, I'm in a situation where I could actually benefit from the C speed tricks of yours tusho doesn't like
22:15:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the ICFP
22:15:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> I'm already using register and inline where appropriate, anything else I should do?
22:15:22 <ais523> it's full of realtime stuff
22:15:30 <AnMaster> I believe the compiler is better at that
22:15:30 <tusho> AnMaster: it's a realtime program
22:15:31 <tusho> literally realtime
22:15:36 <tusho> he needs all the speed he can get
22:15:40 <ais523> I only use it for quick throwaway variables, anyway I think gcc ignores it
22:15:54 <ais523> because it's better at figuring it than me
22:15:59 <ais523> who knows, maybe it actually is
22:16:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well what are you trying to do? if you want hard real time you need an OS supporting it
22:16:27 <ais523> AnMaster: it has to run on Linux
22:16:38 <ais523> and I'm trying to do lots of simulations in realtime so I can pick the best one
22:16:53 <AnMaster> and with what compile time options
22:17:01 <ais523> AnMaster: I choose the compile time options
22:17:08 <ais523> right now I'm just using -O3 though
22:17:12 <AnMaster> what about getting better nice level?
22:17:43 <ais523> AnMaster: can't be root
22:17:53 <ais523> and profile feedback sounds good, I can't remember how to do it though
22:18:18 * oerjan thinks someone needs to add a filter to the esolangs wiki for those latest spams
22:18:28 <ais523> I can't do it, I'm only an admin
22:18:43 <ais523> I can alter the site JS but that won't help against bot spammers, as they'll just ignore it
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22:18:50 <AnMaster> -O3 -fprofile-generate -combine -fwhole-program -fno-ident -fvisibility=hidden -funsafe-loop-optimizations -funsafe-math-optimizations
22:19:16 <ais523> not under gprof, just by itself?
22:19:18 <AnMaster> -O3 -fprofile-use -freorder-functions -combine -fwhole-program -fno-ident -fvisibility=hidden -funsafe-loop-optimizations -funsafe-math-optimizations
22:19:26 <ais523> also -combine is pointless because I only have one input file
22:19:44 <AnMaster> ais523, this may be worth a try
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22:20:04 <AnMaster> ais523, if you need real time, do you know what CPU?
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22:20:21 <ais523> AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2700+
22:20:22 <AnMaster> because if you got something fancy you will want inline asm for prefetching data and such
22:20:37 <tusho> ais523: you don't know what cpu the final will be run on
22:20:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I couldn't trust myself to write inline asm safely, not having an Athlon myself to test on
22:20:54 <tusho> qemu can emulate an athlon
22:21:03 <AnMaster> ais523, well you want to know what sort of SSE it support
22:21:03 <ais523> probably but I'm not risking inline asm
22:21:18 <ais523> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 mmx fxsr sse syscall mmxext 3dnowext 3dnow up ts
22:21:23 <ais523> from the info provided by the organisers
22:22:02 <AnMaster> -march=athlon-xp -msse -mfpmath=sse,387
22:22:03 <tusho> ais523: if you win this, you'll be the official #Esoterician With Money again
22:22:22 <AnMaster> I'm not sure if -mfpmath=sse,387 or -mfpmath=sse will be fastest on that thing
22:22:23 <oerjan> tusho: wait, did he stop being it?
22:22:32 <ais523> I've already decided that I daren't mess about with -march
22:22:40 <tusho> ais523: do you still have the wolfram prize money?
22:22:45 <AnMaster> ais523, you want the correct -march for the target
22:22:45 <ais523> simply because if I get it wrong the program dumps core and I'm disqualified
22:22:49 <ais523> tusho: I'm using it to live off
22:22:54 <tusho> ais523: thought so
22:23:18 <tusho> AnMaster: he can't touch the final server
22:23:24 <tusho> it's the ICFP contest
22:23:29 <tusho> he has to test it on his machine
22:23:32 <tusho> then it's run on their servers
22:23:38 <tusho> and if it breaks, zzt, disqualified
22:24:15 <ais523> ah, that means tune for that, but still work on other x86s?
22:24:22 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed that is the case
22:24:40 <tusho> also, ais523, you can ask in #icfpcontest
22:24:44 <tusho> i'm sure they can tell you about the machinaes
22:24:45 <AnMaster> ais523, you probably want -march=i686, because if they use a 486 or 386 they should go to hell anyway ;P
22:25:52 <tusho> Ooh! A new installation of Batshit Insane coming up! I'm sure GregorR will love this one!
22:25:58 <AnMaster> ais523, also what gcc version?
22:26:15 <ais523> AnMaster: I can use whatever compiler I like
22:26:19 <ais523> I have to submit the binary
22:26:26 <ais523> either that or I can submit sources and a compile script
22:26:33 <ais523> and compile it on their servers, which will have gcc
22:26:36 <ais523> but compiling here seems safer
22:26:41 <AnMaster> ais523, binary then so you can select *version* of gcc
22:26:50 <ais523> which version do you suggest
22:26:57 <AnMaster> ais523, however profiling will depend on target
22:27:03 <AnMaster> so maybe compile script is better
22:27:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I couldn't profile then run over there
22:27:24 <ais523> because the first run will be the official one...
22:27:50 <AnMaster> well any profiling is likely to help somewhat
22:28:05 <AnMaster> as for gcc version, I guess a recent one
22:28:29 <AnMaster> I still admit I use gcc 4.1.2 here :P
22:29:17 <AnMaster> ais523, also you want to try -Wunreachable-code
22:29:29 <AnMaster> -Wunused-function -Wunused-label -Wunused-value -Wunused-variable
22:29:36 <AnMaster> to find anything you don't use
22:29:44 <ais523> will that speed up the program?
22:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, however, be warned that -Wunreachable-code can give false positives
22:29:57 <AnMaster> ais523, it will point out dead code
22:30:06 <AnMaster> so you can remove it (if it isn't a false positive)
22:30:15 <ais523> well, I have if(0) deliberately
22:30:19 <ais523> to keep out debug code
22:30:23 <ais523> I think it'll be optimised away
22:30:24 <AnMaster> ais523, also, move test conditions outside loops
22:30:40 <ais523> yes, I know that trick, I'll have to see where I can use it
22:30:45 <ais523> and I do use #ifdef in most places
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22:31:04 <AnMaster> ais523, if you know your least x86 CPU, consider using SSE if you can
22:31:40 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/flight/ESOE-2008-07-12/ <-- btw I guess no one here is interested in that
22:31:55 <ais523> AnMaster: http://smlnj.org/icfp08-contest/task.html
22:33:27 * ais523 generates some profiling ingo
22:34:02 <ais523> I'm doing the task by simulating possibilities faster than realtime
22:34:04 <ais523> to see which one's best
22:34:18 <ais523> thus the need for speed
22:34:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well what is real time here
22:34:32 <ais523> AnMaster: the speed at which the rover and the Martians move
22:34:49 <ais523> not really because there are delays involved
22:34:54 <ais523> although a faster CPU will be better
22:34:58 <ais523> but theirs isn't very good
22:35:04 <ais523> neither is mine, really
22:35:09 <AnMaster> ais523, also I guess inline x86 asm wouldn't be popular here, if NASA really plans to reuse it
22:35:11 <ais523> but mine's better than theirs
22:35:16 <ais523> AnMaster: I think that bit's a joke
22:37:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: scroll a bit and see the martians... :P
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22:38:05 <tusho> GregorR: THE NEXT INSTALLATION!!!!!!
22:38:05 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/oAmySM83.txt
22:38:10 <tusho> And hilariously awful.
22:38:36 <ais523> rover.c:138: warning: no coverage for function ‘projectstep’ found
22:38:57 <ais523> AnMaster: why didn't the profiling work? Do you have any ideas?
22:39:03 <ais523> do I have to run under a profiler?
22:39:21 <ais523> AnMaster: with the command line you gave for profiling
22:39:29 <AnMaster> ais523, and no if you did it the way I said (NOT -pg, that is another type of profiling) it should work
22:39:31 <ais523> I have a no coverage warning for all my functions
22:39:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume you used the line I said...?
22:40:04 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/vkcFS963.html
22:40:13 <AnMaster> that is what I use for speed runs of cfunge
22:41:04 <AnMaster> it is not in the repo because I don't support anyone using it
22:41:52 <ais523> unsafe-loop-optimizations? Seriously? I checked the unsafe-math-optimizations to make sure they were safe in the context of my program, but loop optimizations, did you check all the loops in your program by hand for safety?
22:42:11 <oerjan> good. we cannot have anything insane in #esoteric. no sir!
22:42:56 <AnMaster> "did you check all the loops in your program by hand for safety?" <-- yes
22:43:06 <tusho> <AnMaster> "did you check all the loops in your program by hand for safety?" <-- yes
22:43:08 <tusho> Ladies and gentlemen.
22:43:12 <ais523> actually, I was planning to do the same in my program
22:43:15 <ais523> so tusho can laugh at me too
22:43:23 <tusho> Crazy person who has no idea what is appropriate for optimization.
22:43:29 <tusho> ais523: No, you need realtime performance.
22:43:40 <AnMaster> tusho, what about real time befunge
22:43:45 <tusho> Not even Ruby, the slowest of the slow, would be reasonable like that.
22:43:45 <ais523> what are the rules? no infinite loops with a nonconstant condition is one of them
22:43:48 <tusho> AnMaster: It does not exist.
22:43:48 <AnMaster> a planned extension in the future
22:43:55 <tusho> It should not exist.
22:44:01 <AnMaster> tusho, for use in nuclear reactors!
22:44:03 <tusho> Why? Because it is a pointless and ridiculous idea that nobody will ever toy with.
22:44:03 <ais523> actually, there's nothing intriniscally slow about Befunge
22:44:29 <AnMaster> <ais523> what are the rules? no infinite loops with a nonconstant condition is one of them <-- well see the -Wunsafe..., that will tell you
22:45:20 <tusho> GregorR: oh lord, it continues
22:45:25 <tusho> he has a pretty shitty personality.
22:45:28 <ais523> incidentally, I googled the error message I got
22:45:36 <ais523> and found nothing but the gcc source code, and patches to it
22:45:53 <ais523> the no coverage found error
22:46:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well my script works for cfunge, I checked
22:46:26 <tusho> THE FINAL INSTALLATION
22:46:27 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/Eou8W588.txt
22:46:35 <ais523> personally, I don't see anything wrong with optimising Befunge for speed
22:46:40 <ais523> actually, it's an interesting challenge
22:46:43 <ais523> sort of like golfing an esolang
22:46:46 <ais523> but for speed not size
22:46:57 <tusho> except he's serious about it, ais523
22:47:12 <tusho> or if he's not, he's very good at hiding that fact and prolonging it for as long as possible
22:47:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> but for speed not size <-- thanks for defending me!
22:47:40 <ais523> tusho: why do you think there's a -F option in C-INTERCAL?
22:47:56 <tusho> ais523: but that's funny
22:48:12 <AnMaster> tusho, well I find posix_fallocate quite fun! ;P
22:48:17 <tusho> oh, and the first person to point out the wonderful irony at the top of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Smith_Jones wins a cookie
22:48:18 <ais523> well, ok, -F was mostly a joke, but you have to admit that INTERCAL wins on many benchmarks now
22:49:05 <ais523> tusho: I don't have to point out the irony, you did
22:49:16 <AnMaster> static inline int tusho_fadvise(int fd, off_t offset, off_t len, int advice) { posix_fallocate(fd, offset, len, advice); }
22:49:20 <tusho> well yes, but you have to specify what it is, ais523
22:49:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what does -F do now again?
22:49:52 <ais523> tusho: the same thing that happened to Esperanza, except that it's a project to prevent that happening in the first place
22:50:18 <tusho> ais523: actually, it's the box and the line directly below it
22:50:18 <ais523> AnMaster: verifies that the program is deterministic and takes no input, runs it to see what happens, records the output and generates a program that contains all the output and just cats it out
22:50:24 <tusho> {a principled scientist}
22:50:28 <tusho> {join the wikiproject Homeopathy}
22:50:55 <ais523> tusho: I thought the irony was setting up a bureaucratic process to complain about bureaucratic processes
22:50:59 <ais523> or did you miss that one?
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22:51:16 <tusho> and I chuckled a bit
22:51:24 <tusho> but I grinned madly when I saw the next sentence
22:54:02 <ais523> I'm annoyed, both AnMaster and Google say that it should work fine, but gcc is saying that it isn't and won't tell me why not
22:54:21 <AnMaster> ais523, try that script on the cfunge sources
22:54:23 <tusho> --fexplain-yourself
22:54:28 <tusho> AnMaster: he doesn't have time for that!
22:54:48 <ais523> AnMaster: what does -fno-ident do, by the way?
22:54:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it should work out of box
22:54:54 <tusho> he needs to refine, refine, optimize, optimize
22:55:01 <AnMaster> ais523, just remove some pointless metadata
22:55:20 <AnMaster> ais523, about what gcc version was used
22:55:38 <AnMaster> that gcc puts in a .comment section in the binary
22:55:58 <ais523> ah, I forgot the -O3 on the original compile...
22:56:22 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw you also want -Wl,-O1,--hash-style=both,--as-needed,-z,combreloc
22:56:35 <ais523> optimize the /linker/?
22:56:40 <ais523> but I'm only linking one file
22:56:44 <AnMaster> "both" instead of "gnu" because the target may not support the both style
22:57:16 <tusho> AnMaster, you scare me
22:57:30 <ais523> maybe I should generate a lookup table for sin and cos at the start of the program
22:57:43 <tusho> or just hardcode it
22:57:45 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "both" instead of "gnu" because the target may not support the both style <-- "may not support the gnu style" was what I meant
22:57:47 <ais523> because all angles are only accurate to 1/10 degree
22:57:50 <ais523> so that's only 2600 angles to check
22:57:57 <tusho> ais523: hardcoding it = huuuuuuuuuge file, but still
22:58:24 <tusho> #include "tables.c"
22:58:31 <tusho> then it's easier to edit
22:58:33 <ais523> tusho: yes, that's the trick
22:58:40 <ais523> and I've put lookup tables into programs before
22:58:40 <tusho> yeah, give that a go
22:58:54 <AnMaster> including C files, nice one, but oh so devilous
22:58:55 <ais523> once spent 9 hours debugging a program where I'd accidentally written the first half of the lookup table twice
22:58:58 <ais523> rather than the whole table
22:59:17 <ais523> AnMaster: you are /so/ getting a mention in the README for this...
22:59:19 <AnMaster> ais523, auto generate lookup table
22:59:28 <ais523> I'll write a script to generate it
22:59:46 * tusho is mentioned in the readme too
22:59:56 <AnMaster> ais523, BE SURE TO NOT USE A PENTIUM WITH THE FDIV BUG!
23:00:13 <tusho> what did you do AnMaster
23:00:25 <AnMaster> I thought he had an old computer
23:00:35 <tusho> ais523: oh, yeah, forgot
23:00:39 <ais523> I installed sdate yesterday
23:00:45 <ais523> Evolution seems not to like it, though
23:00:58 <lament> the september that never ended until usenet got shut down?
23:01:02 <ais523> AnMaster: sdate wraps libc to return dates in September 1993
23:01:07 <tusho> lament: it hasn't been shut down.
23:01:12 <tusho> besides, it's the internet as a whole
23:01:23 <ais523> but many programs barf on getting a day of month greater than 31
23:01:38 <AnMaster> <ais523> but many programs barf on getting a day of month greater than 31 <-- well not odd
23:01:42 <tusho> AnMaster: sept 1993 was when aol gave its users usenet accses
23:02:01 <tusho> the regular september influx of newbies never ended
23:02:05 <tusho> because AOL had them in abundance
23:02:09 <AnMaster> tusho, I know.........................................
23:02:21 <tusho> ...........................................................
23:02:25 <tusho> ...........................................................................................................................................
23:02:50 <ais523> another problem is that the number of newbies reached a critical mass, and so people stayed as being newbies rather than becoming more sensible over time
23:02:57 <lament> in fact, everybody born after sept. 1993 is automatically a moron
23:03:06 <tusho> lament: you just indirectly insulted me
23:03:21 <ais523> lament: I think the problem is that although some newbies are good, you get a lot of bad ones too
23:03:34 <ais523> I was a sufficiently good newbie on comp.lang.c that nobody complained much when I posted
23:03:48 <ais523> and if you see the amount of complaining about trivialities that happens there, that's quite an impressive achievement
23:03:53 <tusho> isn't comp.lang.c very elitist?
23:04:00 <ais523> tusho: not exactly, but it's very pernickety
23:04:07 <tusho> i've read it a bit
23:04:09 <ais523> you have to do things exactly right or all the regulars complain
23:04:12 <tusho> people just sweat over everything
23:04:19 <ais523> so it gives off the impression of being elitist
23:04:21 <tusho> AHA!! But seciton 3.348979c8qw79127398237498234798234 of the standard says YOU CAN'T CALL IT THAT
23:04:26 <tusho> I am refusing to help you. Goodbye.
23:04:44 <lament> ##C is just the same way.
23:04:57 <ais523> incidentally, I asked for help to see if a bit of C-INTERCAL was legal, they helped me improve it a lot and asked why on earth I was trying to do what I was doing
23:04:59 <tusho> because it's realtime communication
23:05:00 <ais523> and I said it was in the spec
23:05:04 <ais523> and they said weird spec
23:05:06 <tusho> so they don't bother detailing exactly what you got wrong
23:05:10 <lament> for fun, you can always go to ##C and suggest that arrays and pointers are the same.
23:05:25 <tusho> lament: oo, think i'll do that
23:05:40 <ais523> tusho: are you really going to?
23:05:44 <tusho> ais523: i just did
23:05:50 <tusho> <tusho> arrays and pointers are the same right?
23:06:09 * ais523 waits to see how quickly tusho's kickbanned as an obvious troll
23:06:10 <lament> asking it was probably bad, should have somehow stated it
23:06:20 <lament> asking is not trollish enough
23:06:20 <tusho> lament: i'm going to say that now
23:06:27 <tusho> it was a rhetorical question
23:06:31 <AnMaster> <lament> for fun, you can always go to ##C and suggest that arrays and pointers are the same.
23:06:41 <lament> AnMaster: say it there.
23:06:45 <lament> AnMaster: go to ##C and defend tusho.
23:06:50 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, on the machine level they have different lengths
23:07:00 <ais523> a pointer is 4 bytes long on x86, most arrays are longer
23:07:08 <ais523> but you normally deal with pointers to the array's element
23:08:57 <lament> <Auris-> tusho, C is about details. if you cannot keep them in mind, you will fail.
23:09:00 <lament> that's the crux of the issue
23:09:02 <ais523> yep, it sounds just like comp.lang.c to me, but I rather like comp.lang.c
23:09:14 <lament> it explains both the behaviour of comp.lang.c and of ##C
23:09:18 <tusho> ais523: feel glad that poppavic isn't there
23:09:25 <tusho> poppavic is the only being worse than a markov chain
23:09:28 <lament> unless you're really anal, you'll just fail at writing C
23:09:35 <lament> that's why they're anal
23:09:46 <tusho> ais523: you ruin all my fun
23:09:57 <lament> poppavic is probably banned
23:10:01 <ais523> after you left: <dkasak> Coward.
23:10:14 <tusho> ais523: well, at least I trolled him
23:10:16 <tusho> lament: seriously?
23:12:51 <AnMaster> <lament> unless you're really anal, you'll just fail at writing C
23:13:04 <tusho> AnMaster: C, not AnMasterC
23:13:17 * AnMaster slaps tusho with a super-large, super-smelly, decaying digitally-enhanced reinforced IRC-grade trout
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23:16:39 <tusho> oerjan: this channel is pg-13.
23:17:01 * oerjan lies on the floor, screaming with laughter
23:17:32 <tusho> well I'm glad I can make someone laugh
23:17:56 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out).
23:18:31 <oerjan> also, http://www.darthsanddroids.net/
23:21:40 <ais523> AnMaster: thanks for the advice, it's really helped, I actually just got 3/5 on a version of the spiral map where all the obstacles were 3 times as large and I've never got anywhere near that at all
23:21:45 <ais523> the extra performance helped it find better paths
23:24:18 <ais523> although it bounced off things a lot
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23:25:46 <lament> are you winning with intercal?
23:25:54 <ais523> lament: no, I'm using C
23:26:03 <tusho> ais523: you promised to include some intercal
23:26:07 <ais523> this contest requires pretty much all the thing that INTERCAL is bad at
23:26:18 <tusho> all the more reason to use it
23:26:24 <ais523> tusho: I didn't promise, I just thought it would be nice to use it for something
23:26:37 <ais523> but if you write me a JSON library in INTERCAL, I'll use it to generate some maps
23:26:51 <tusho> if you write me a string lib
23:26:57 <ais523> ugh, that'll take weeks
23:27:02 <ais523> INTERCAL really does need a decent string lib
23:27:08 <ais523> and I have weeks but not now
23:27:15 <ais523> that seems like a decent summer holiday project
23:27:27 <ais523> ideally it would work with both C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL string handling rules
23:27:52 <tusho> ais523: Ideally, it would be a C{,LC}-INTERCAL polyglot, that when run, would generate a C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL version to stdout
23:27:59 <tusho> the opposite of what you ran it on
23:28:02 <tusho> so run it on C-INTERCAL for CLC
23:28:39 <lament> can't you at least pick some other, saner language
23:28:40 <ais523> there are several ways to tell between them
23:28:59 <tusho> lament: he'd have to use cfunge
23:29:03 <ais523> ignorret is different on all three INTERCAL compilers I can find nowadays
23:29:19 <ais523> and the syntax differs between CLC-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL by default
23:29:23 <ais523> also language features can be tested
23:29:34 <tusho> ais523: When run on J-INTERCAL it should output "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHA" and exit.
23:29:36 <ais523> e.g. computed come from to rule out J-INTERCAL, lectures to rule out C-INTERCAL
23:31:57 <ais523> tusho: when run on J-INTERCAL it should output itself in Java bytecode
23:32:23 <tusho> ais523: ... and the bytecode version, when run with J-INTERCAL, should output that and exit
23:32:41 <ais523> you mean it shouldn't contain DO anywhere?
23:32:52 <tusho> that="AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHA
23:33:07 <ais523> a Java bytecode/INTERCAL quine is probably impossible, though
23:33:14 <ais523> maybe I should implement reverse comments in something
23:33:23 <ais523> a comment syntax "comment backward to the beginning of the program"
23:33:29 <ais523> so you can write whatever you like before it
23:33:36 <ais523> the last one in the program would be honoured
23:33:51 <ais523> thanks everyone for the help
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23:49:16 <tusho> oklopol: augur: another fun game:
23:49:20 <tusho> http://www.jeffwu.net/games/ngame.swf
23:49:28 <tusho> hmm, that one's distorted
23:49:29 <tusho> http://www.addictinggames.com/ngame.html
23:58:18 <tusho> Slereah2: This IS addictive.
23:59:40 <tusho> I did a huge leap from one side to the other
23:59:43 <tusho> cause I had 4 seconds left
23:59:45 <tusho> and had to get to the door
23:59:49 <tusho> but splatted onthe ground