00:00:06 <tusho> well, well thank you
00:01:03 <tusho> i hope my dramatic music is sufficient
00:01:12 <augur> shes an independent 3rd party
00:02:06 <tusho> I CAN SPEAK FINNISH NOW
00:02:23 <tusho> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDddddddddd
00:03:01 <tusho> you're abandoning meeeeeeeeeeeeee
00:03:50 <tusho> i am the best finnish speaker ever
00:04:11 <augur> omg that was ridiculous
00:04:13 <tusho> augur: upload that
00:04:37 <augur> god wtf was that XD
00:05:01 <tusho> welcome to skype call testing service
00:05:04 <oklopol> tusho: i think the joke got old :P
00:05:13 <tusho> skype test call is kinda shy
00:06:06 <tusho> don't hold my call
00:07:07 <tusho> ill show you an empty chair augur
00:07:14 <tusho> just accept that call
00:10:42 <augur> i think tusho is a little girl
00:10:57 <lament> could you please stop raping her
00:11:22 <augur> i did not! youre going to have to do it again
00:12:12 <tusho> is that proof enough
00:12:16 <tusho> get ready to take a screenshot for anmaster!
00:12:20 <augur> unfortunately yes :(
00:12:48 <tusho> screenshot acquired?
00:12:52 <augur> oh do it again wont you
00:12:55 <tusho> see, that was a video filter.
00:12:57 <tusho> it's like an audio filter.
00:13:00 <tusho> but it makes you look younger.
00:13:06 <augur> and of the opposite gender
00:13:24 <augur> you look like this south african lesbian i know
00:13:57 <tusho> well if you didn't get a screenshot then you suck
00:14:07 <tusho> but i hope I have proved beyond monadical doubt
00:14:09 <tusho> that i am in fact 12
00:14:19 <tusho> however it looks like i have to prove i'm male now
00:14:22 <augur> either that or you're a woman with a glandular problem
00:14:35 <tusho> oklopol: i'm sure augur has it.
00:14:35 <augur> oh theres VIDEO oklopol
00:14:46 -!- Corun has joined.
00:14:51 <augur> i did take screen shots
00:14:55 <tusho> you can't just go taking videos of our cybersex augur
00:14:58 <augur> one every 30th of a second
00:15:08 <tusho> you have to ask my permission first!
00:15:27 * tusho eagerly awaits video
00:15:32 <oklopol> did you actually see tusho talk about monads or something?
00:15:42 <augur> ill show you the video dont worry
00:15:48 <tusho> is that all the calls for toda
00:15:56 <augur> i didnt capture him speaking, unfortunately, but i saw him speaking
00:16:17 <oklopol> well i don't think you have any reason to lie, so i'll believe that
00:17:14 <augur> tusho you're way too girly for a guy
00:17:22 <augur> and its not the hair
00:17:26 <augur> YOU LOOK LIKE A WOMAN
00:17:35 <tusho> that was because my headphones were pulling my hair back
00:17:42 <tusho> no i fucking don't :q
00:18:08 <augur> i feel weird talking to this 12 year old boy who looks like he belongs in a lesbian outfit
00:18:10 <augur> I FEEL WEIRD TUSHO
00:18:21 <tusho> i am not female. nor am I a lesbian.
00:18:26 <tusho> being a lesbian requires me to be female. I am not female.
00:18:57 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%201.mov
00:18:58 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%202.mov
00:19:15 * tusho watches the feature film
00:19:19 <augur> in sparta the guys fucked one another.
00:19:35 <tusho> i should have PREPARED
00:19:39 <augur> not horrible as-a-girl
00:19:45 <augur> you just look like a girl
00:19:53 <augur> you look like an attractive lesbian
00:19:57 <augur> which is frightening
00:20:08 <tusho> i can't bear to watch it
00:20:14 <tusho> I do not normally look like that
00:20:24 <augur> you look like a girl!
00:20:30 <tusho> we've established that
00:20:43 <augur> if you were actually a girl itd be fine but youre a guy and its weird x.x
00:20:46 <tusho> ok, it looks best near the very end
00:20:50 <tusho> i don't look like a girl then
00:21:12 <tusho> do you think that'll convince anmaster
00:21:27 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x | HEY ANMASTER: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%201.mov and http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%202.mov.
00:21:36 <augur> youre a very girly boy, tusho.
00:21:56 <augur> when you go through puberty you might end up being quite attractive tho.
00:22:12 <augur> but right now, WAY too girly.
00:22:14 <tusho> anyway, i don't normally look like that
00:22:27 <augur> well then we'll talk again next time you look like a man
00:22:46 <augur> now i cant insult you
00:22:51 <augur> you're too adorable to insult
00:22:54 <augur> i fucking hate you
00:22:56 <tusho> oklopol: what is your opinion on the matter
00:23:03 <tusho> augur: you just broke your rule two messages after stating it
00:23:21 <augur> i did no suck thing.
00:23:22 <tusho> augur: now i cant insult you
00:23:25 <tusho> augur: i fucking hate you
00:23:29 <oklopol> male == hasPenis, female == !male
00:23:35 <augur> saying i hate you isnt an insult. :P
00:23:39 <tusho> oklopol: do you believe i'm 12
00:24:05 <oklopol> well yeah, i've always believed that
00:24:08 <GregorR> Saying you hate someone is an insult if they respect your opinion.
00:24:11 <oklopol> because i don't really care whether you are
00:24:19 <augur> tusho doesnt respect my opinion, be serious
00:24:28 <tusho> GregorR: Do YOU believe i'm 12? And male? :P
00:24:34 <tusho> (Evidence: In topic.)
00:24:38 <GregorR> tusho: I have no reason not to *shrugs*
00:24:39 <oklopol> augur: i did no suck thing. <<< you suck things all the time
00:24:52 <tusho> augur: i need a leigon to fight AM
00:24:53 <augur> those videos are not evidence you're a male. not by far. :P
00:25:05 <tusho> near the end of part 2
00:25:10 <oklopol> i've been told i'd make a pretty girl
00:25:22 <augur> you're just pretty, oklopol.
00:25:26 <GregorR> augur: Any further evidence that could be provided would suffice for child porn ;P
00:25:48 <oklopol> The international child porn hub, also some esoteric programming.
00:25:52 <augur> its only child porn if you believe hes 12
00:26:06 <augur> who thinks tusho's really a 29 year old woman? ::raises hand:
00:26:25 <tusho> I AM A 12 YEAR OLD MALE YOU IDIOT
00:26:29 <augur> you look like my friend karma
00:26:39 <augur> those are videos of tusho
00:26:42 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: proof that I am 12.
00:26:45 <augur> pretending to be a young male.
00:26:49 <tusho> or female, if you listen to augur
00:26:56 <oklopol> i'm pondering about taking a tour to meet all the active people here.
00:27:00 <tusho> fuck you bsmntbombdood
00:27:05 <oklopol> although i may steer clear of augur :P
00:27:19 <augur> well you'd have to bring your girlfriend if we meet up, oklopol.
00:27:27 <augur> she wouldnt want us fucking unless she could watch.
00:27:34 <augur> it'd be totally unfair to her.
00:27:42 <oklopol> i don't think she'd mind either way
00:27:43 <bsmntbombdood> don't bring your girlfriend if we meet up, oklopol
00:27:59 <augur> you wouldn't want grammar either
00:28:32 <augur> oklopol, you sound way too archetypally northern european.
00:28:36 <GregorR> Do they make speakers hi-fidelity enough to play sound at roughly 500MhZ?
00:28:46 <tusho> GregorR: depends. If I'm 12 and male, yes.
00:28:51 <augur> but you'd never hear it.
00:29:06 <augur> and theyre not real speakers.
00:29:16 <augur> not like.. magnet and cone speakers
00:29:24 <tusho> augur: leave those videos up by the way
00:29:25 <augur> they'd be some crazy custom plasma speaker or something
00:29:26 <tusho> AnMaster must see.
00:29:32 <augur> oh those videos arent going anywhere
00:29:34 <GregorR> augur: But if you play a sine wave at 44540 Hz, then record it with your computer, a perfect middle A will come out even though you couldn't hear anything with your human ears :)
00:29:47 <tusho> augur: what purpose do you have for them?! :P
00:29:51 <GregorR> (Record it at 44100 that is)
00:30:01 <GregorR> augur: Nope, just insufficient sample rate and bad timing :P
00:30:08 <augur> oh i see. yes, well thats sampling issues.
00:30:18 <augur> nyquist frequency is relevant here, im sure.
00:30:37 <tusho> reencode them as ogg
00:30:40 <tusho> otherwise AnMaster won't watch them
00:30:49 <augur> i dont know if i can
00:33:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:33:04 -!- augur has joined.
00:36:35 -!- seveninchbread has joined.
00:36:52 <augur> seveninchbread, is "bread" a euphemism for penis?
00:39:00 <augur> why do i have audio of someone paddling through a lake? x.x
00:40:12 -!- seveninchbread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
00:40:22 <augur> i lost my data a while back and now all my music is garbage :(
00:40:52 <CakeProphet> so congratulations for being manipullable.
00:41:40 <tusho> anyway. augur. i am one-two 12 years old. i am m-a-l-e male. now accept that :p
00:41:41 <augur> im speaking english words and you're understanding them. congratulations for being manipulable.
00:41:53 <augur> ITS TOO WEIRD, TUSHO
00:43:17 <augur> i dont know what any of this music is but a lot of it is really good :(
00:43:27 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x | HEY ANMASTER: http://vjn.cc/tusho1 and http://vjn.cc/tusho2.
00:44:16 <augur> how the fuck do you loose all meta data on a song, thats ridiculous. >_<
00:44:37 <tusho> use musicbrainz picard
00:44:40 <tusho> it tags it from an audio hash
00:44:56 <oklopol> when did they change "lose" to "loose"?
00:45:01 <augur> ok ill use it and if it doesnt work will you admit you're a 29 year old woman?
00:45:11 <augur> WHEN I SAID IT DID, OKLOPOL.
00:45:14 <augur> IM THE LINGUIST HERE, NOT YOU
00:45:24 <tusho> augur: use the foosic tagger?
00:45:26 <tusho> there's tons of options
00:45:38 <oklopol> well i thought it might've been a few days ago, since AnMaster used it twice
00:45:54 <augur> its a common misspelling which will probably become standard soon
00:46:04 <oklopol> i also "corrected" him twice, although i now realize it must've changed while i wasn't looking.
00:46:29 <tusho> oklopol: AnMaster isn't very good at english
00:46:43 <tusho> befunge 98 got some X
00:47:37 <oklopol> if i feel the need to correct someone's "loose", he can't suck *that* much
00:47:55 <augur> but he definitely fucks too much
00:48:04 <augur> kegels. gotta do kegels.
00:48:10 <augur> otherwise you gape! :(
00:48:15 <augur> and im not into that.
00:48:16 <oklopol> hf, just remember to flush
00:48:29 <augur> tusho has a skype smiley to help you visualize it
00:48:42 <tusho> what, the goatse hands?
00:49:19 <augur> i wanna do a podcast. we should do a podcast. it can be about esolangs.
00:49:30 <oklopol> perhaps i should code eodermdrome, this has been fun but very pointless :)
00:50:05 <augur> and anyone else who wants to join.
00:50:07 <tusho> augur and tusho talk about esolangs while oklopol & lilja laugh in the background
00:50:23 <oklopol> augur talks about esolangs, while we laugh, and tusho screams
00:50:27 <tusho> oklopol's girlfriend i think?
00:50:45 <oklopol> lilja is my other persona i use over a voice filter
00:51:10 <augur> is that your girlfriend?
00:51:30 <augur> omg i love this song :(
00:54:01 <oklopol> i need an eodermdrome program
00:55:14 <tusho> augur: we should hack on a language implementation while talking about it over skype some time, i'd just spend all the time replacing the file with NOMADS
00:55:21 <tusho> and you'd spend it laughing and prodding me about scheme
00:55:40 <augur> id prod you about being a girl is what i'd prod you about
00:56:12 <augur> whyd you have to ruin it tusho
00:56:18 <augur> now i cant joke about raping you :(
00:56:57 <augur> music brainz is also giving me either no matches or a million matches
00:59:30 <oklopol> ais523: i think it's a non trivial task to do graph -> eodermdrome.
01:03:36 <pikhq> (or: no, Def-BF ain't happening tonight)
01:04:28 <lilja> I'm just oklopol's pet chipmunk
01:04:39 <lilja> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
01:09:21 * tusho watches iphone upgrade
01:11:18 <lilja> but hey, augur, you had a really nice voice
01:11:23 <lilja> and way of talking
01:11:26 <oklopol> if anyone feels like playing, this should work now http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316213521.txt
01:11:47 <oklopol> i didn't make the io yet, as i'm not entirely sure how to unparse shit, and i kinda want that next
01:11:57 <oklopol> ais prolly has some clue about that
01:11:57 <augur> i sounded like a complete poof
01:12:10 <augur> mainly cause i am a complete poof
01:12:25 <lilja> oh well, then poofs sound nice
01:12:33 <oklopol> CakeProphet: ais523's graph rewriting language
01:13:05 <oklopol> i got interested in it as a possible extension for kinda graph lambdas for graphica
01:13:36 <tusho> augur: let's talk about SCHEME
01:13:42 <oklopol> but i doubt i'll do that even if he lets me use it
01:14:04 <augur> i figured you'd get angry at scheme and have lots to say
01:14:31 <augur> <tusho> GRAR SCHEME GRR SGLASGJ SHITTY UNDERPOWERED TOO MINIMAL GRR RARG
01:14:32 <tusho> you envisioned...................
01:14:41 <tusho> when have I ever said that
01:14:58 <oklopol> doesn't tusho like scheme?
01:15:05 <augur> the other day when you kids were talking about scheme and lisp
01:15:12 <augur> you were all hardcore anti scheme
01:15:12 <tusho> just for writing actual apps it's a bit on the minimal side
01:15:23 <oklopol> i must've been otherwheres then
01:16:03 <oklopol> ANTISCHEME, WHERE THE PARENS ARE BACKWARDS AND LISTS ARE FUCKING NEGATIVE
01:16:18 <augur> WHAT IS A NEGATIVE FUCKING LIST
01:16:21 <augur> you dont even know yourself
01:16:48 <augur> oklopol your girlfriend is going all :D on me
01:16:52 <tusho> augur: it's a list that instead of being wrapped inwards like nested list
01:16:52 <oklopol> that's one way to do negative lists
01:16:54 <tusho> is wrapped outwards
01:17:02 <augur> im going to start confusing her for you and then im gonna be hitting on your girlfriend :( :( :(
01:17:18 <augur> that doesnt make any sense
01:17:24 <augur> no i dont like girls! :(
01:17:25 <tusho> augur: yes it does
01:17:49 <tusho> see? it sort of folds out
01:18:00 <augur> that makes no sense :P
01:18:02 <oklopol> well the level before (a b c) is trivial
01:18:09 <oklopol> you will just expand whatever it's inside of
01:18:34 <oklopol> you can match that on a list to get a certain amount of elements from the middle of it
01:19:21 <CakeProphet> oklopol I would have guessed a negative list
01:19:30 <oklopol> it's the negative lists that are complicated
01:19:31 <CakeProphet> contained everything else besides what it was defined with
01:19:47 <oklopol> right now, my nopol semantics aren't really all that pretty
01:19:51 <tusho> iphone update sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:19:57 <augur> cakeprophet: how would that work?
01:20:01 <CakeProphet> which... isn't really possible to implement--yeah
01:20:09 <oklopol> for instance ([...]) != [(...)], where ()=positive, []=negative
01:20:16 <CakeProphet> and do not necessarily need to be iterated over.
01:20:17 <augur> like.. test membership is just like normal but negated?
01:20:21 <oklopol> even though both should obviously be a zero depth ...
01:20:34 <augur> )a b c( is the negative list containing everthing but a, b, and c
01:20:35 <oklopol> CakeProphet: it's not negative length
01:20:52 <augur> so (member 'a ')a b c() returns false?
01:21:00 <oklopol> also no, negative != infinite's complement
01:21:06 <augur> e.g. (member 'a ')a b c() == (not (member 'a '(a b c)))
01:21:14 <oklopol> well you can define it like that, if you wanna
01:21:30 <oklopol> but i'd prefer a set that has kinda antielements.
01:21:36 <augur> this is bordering on the closed universe issue with prolog
01:21:40 <oklopol> but anyway, this is not about a negative length, it's negative depth
01:21:52 <oklopol> which kinda escapes the tree form in very, very weird ways
01:21:55 <augur> oklopol, you and your negatives.
01:22:17 <oklopol> so basically, if you have a negative list inside your positive list, the negative list will actually kinda pop up.
01:22:19 <CakeProphet> but in a negative list it has a depth of... -2?
01:22:28 <oklopol> and the rest will be inside it
01:22:33 <CakeProphet> ........that's a very cool, confusing concept.
01:23:12 <augur> its nonsensical is what it is!
01:23:14 <oklopol> CakeProphet: yes, and i'm not sure how it should be done, nopol has it, but it's not all that pretty yes
01:23:19 <augur> oklopol loves to do these crazy things
01:23:22 <CakeProphet> so you can effect outside data by defining data within a negated list that's inside a list of the opposite polarity?
01:23:25 <augur> dont let him make you nuts
01:23:41 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt <<< map function with a negative list
01:23:56 <augur> youre both mad! >_<
01:24:29 <oklopol> i'm going to explain, the gist at least
01:24:54 <oklopol> basically, map does (1,2,3...n) -> (f 1,f 2,f 3...f n), right
01:25:32 <oklopol> now what we do, is take a function, and do (f (1,2,3...n)), after which we lift the list given to f by two steps
01:25:42 <oklopol> so we first get (f 1 2 3 4... n)
01:25:54 <oklopol> where [] is a negative list
01:26:01 <oklopol> a negative list is a sick thing.
01:26:15 <oklopol> if the negative list has depth -1
01:26:26 <oklopol> then it will kinda rise above one level of normal list surrounding it
01:26:34 <oklopol> in this case it will rise above the (f ...) thing
01:26:52 <augur> CAKE PROPHET IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE
01:26:53 <oklopol> and it will iterate through its elements, making a copy of the whole list surrounding it, for each of its elements
01:26:57 <augur> even oklopol doesnt understand it
01:27:07 <augur> oi! oklopol! PMs! read them!
01:27:08 <oklopol> CakeProphet: oh, no, it's not like that
01:27:57 <oklopol> after doing the negative -> positive transformation
01:28:21 <oklopol> as you can see, (f ...) was done for each elem in the list
01:28:32 <CakeProphet> so... for notational purposes... if (f ...) is a function call... [1,2,3,...] is a positive list... and <1,2,3...> is a negative list
01:28:54 <oklopol> well sure, except it doesn't actually differentiate between a list and a function call
01:29:04 <oklopol> well it kinda does, but not conceptually
01:29:09 <augur> this is lisp right oklopol?
01:29:21 <augur> CRAZY FINNISH LISP
01:29:33 <oklopol> lisp doesn't differentiate between a list and a function call?
01:29:54 <oklopol> that's a list in nopol, because 1 can't be called
01:30:07 <augur> and NEGATIVE LISTS
01:30:14 <oklopol> except in practise it's closer to lisp, but irrelevant here
01:30:24 <augur> (1 2 3 4) should not be a list in lisp
01:30:27 <augur> it should be an error
01:30:53 <augur> you know its true!
01:31:01 <augur> '(1 2 3 4) is a list
01:31:05 <oklopol> CakeProphet: it's purely functional
01:31:06 <augur> (list 1 2 3 4) is a list
01:31:11 <oklopol> except for negative list rewriting
01:31:13 <augur> but (1 2 3 4) is an application that fails
01:31:17 <oklopol> which is not, but close to it
01:31:33 <augur> but its not a list
01:31:43 <CakeProphet> oklopol: hmmm... so what was not purely functional in my description? I've never fully grasps pure functionalness completely.
01:31:49 <oklopol> okay you got me i didn't know that
01:32:07 <augur> language metalanguage oklopol. language metalanguage. :P
01:32:19 <oklopol> CakeProphet: basically, that there is just one tree specifying the program state at a given time, in this case
01:32:29 <oklopol> no variables, no streams, just a tree
01:32:41 <CakeProphet> oklopol: so... like brainfuck has an array... this will have a tree?
01:33:25 <oklopol> but unlike brainfuck, there is no pointer that moves around
01:33:34 <oklopol> there is just state, and rules for rewriting parts of it
01:34:08 <CakeProphet> to help me understand the rewriting (I've /never/ grasped graph rewriting)
01:34:17 <CakeProphet> ...that's like uh... damnit what's it called.
01:34:26 <oklopol> graph rewriting is more complex than tree rewriting
01:34:33 <CakeProphet> the string-rewiriting language that I should know instantly.
01:35:09 <CakeProphet> in terms of how you describe things... as rewrite rules.
01:35:21 <augur> string rewriting is simple
01:35:26 <augur> i dont know how to do graph rewriting
01:35:29 <oklopol> okay let's consider an example
01:36:07 <CakeProphet> -updates his hideous and outdated picture on frappr-
01:36:16 <oklopol> CakeProphet: let's say you have the initial state [append, [1, [2, [3, []]], [2, [3, [4, []]]]]
01:36:40 <oklopol> [append [1 [2 [3 []]] [2 [3 [4 []]]]] if you prefer without commas
01:36:45 <augur> what does that even do, oklopol. lol
01:36:53 <oklopol> augur: it does absolutely nothing
01:36:59 <oklopol> this is a tree with numbers and atoms.
01:37:15 <oklopol> now, we can make a purely syntactic rewrite rule
01:37:17 <augur> ok so its a boring binary tree.
01:38:29 <oklopol> [append A []] => A; [append [A B] C] => [append B [A C]]
01:38:37 <oklopol> now here we have two rewrite rules
01:38:49 <oklopol> which will actually not work, sorry.
01:39:15 <oklopol> [append A []] => A; [append A [B C]] => [append [B A] C]
01:39:25 <CakeProphet> and is substitued as the A in the second expression
01:39:33 <oklopol> this will actually be kinda bugged, as the latter list will reverse
01:40:01 <oklopol> we're just doing a global rule, each time there is some append in the program state, we can rewrite it using these rules.
01:40:02 <CakeProphet> hmmm... the first rule won't match anything will it?
01:40:14 <oklopol> it will match only if the latter list is empty
01:40:24 <CakeProphet> there is not empty node after an anything-node after append
01:40:25 <oklopol> in which case the branch will be rewritten as just the list A
01:40:34 <augur> it matches 4 [] no?
01:40:39 <oklopol> it will not match right away, CakeProphet
01:40:52 <oklopol> the second rule would match exactly 3 times, then the first one would match once
01:41:04 <oklopol> the evolution of the program state tree would be something like
01:41:24 <oklopol> [append, [1, [2, [3, []]], [2, [3, [4, []]]]] => [append, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]], [3, [4, []]]]
01:41:37 <oklopol> => [append, [3, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]]], [4, []]]
01:41:45 <augur> it'd transform [1 [2 [3 [4 []]]]] into [[[[[] 1] 2] 3] 4] right?
01:41:54 <oklopol> => [append, [4, [3, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]]]], []]
01:42:01 <oklopol> and now the first rule would match
01:42:09 <oklopol> and the result would be [4, [3, [2, [1, [2, [3, []]]]]]
01:42:26 <augur> are you sure oklopol? i dont think thats what would result.
01:42:40 <augur> atleast not with the second 2 and 3
01:42:49 <oklopol> augur: why would it transform a list into its reverse?
01:42:57 <oklopol> there are only rules for lists that start with append
01:43:02 <augur> well i didnt trace it out in my head but
01:43:23 <augur> A [B C] => [B A] C which is a reordering of the nesting from right to left
01:43:30 <oklopol> you can do curried functional programming with first-class functions just by doing simple tree rewrite rules
01:43:55 <oklopol> the left side of the second rule
01:44:14 <oklopol> B will match head, C will match tail
01:44:35 <augur> your notation is confusing anyway
01:44:35 <oklopol> CakeProphet: you don't calle
01:44:54 <oklopol> [A B] is a list of two elems, A and B
01:45:03 <oklopol> [A B C] is a list of three elems, A, B and C
01:45:07 <oklopol> what's confusing about that?
01:45:27 <oklopol> but anyway, i think augur just sucks ass, as he's gay ;)))))
01:45:30 <augur> it doesnt help to discuss further
01:45:51 <CakeProphet> yeah... I'd ditch the commas... not needed in this notation really.
01:46:17 <oklopol> CakeProphet: so, functions don't get called, it's just if you have something with a "function name" as the first element and something as it's arguments, the rewrite rule will trigger
01:47:54 <oklopol> well i explained them before, already, a list of negative depth -N will rise N levels upwards, and it will multiply that whole list N times, and put each of its elements where the negative list used to be
01:47:59 <oklopol> and collect these in a list
01:48:11 <oklopol> so for [...] a positive list and <...> a negative list
01:48:39 <oklopol> here, k l m is the negative list [a b [d e <<k l m>> f g] c [h i j]]
01:48:48 <oklopol> no let's see how to evaluate that
01:48:56 <oklopol> first, we separate the negative list's contents
01:49:18 <oklopol> we get the list [k l m] and the list "lambda" [a b [d e * f g] c [h i j]]
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01:49:32 <oklopol> we then just put each of k, l and m where the * is
01:49:49 <oklopol> [[a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]]
01:50:00 <oklopol> if you get that, you should get my negative list semantics
01:50:33 <CakeProphet> but I am not going to be able to think about it sanely.
01:50:39 <oklopol> the list is -2 in depth, so if we had something around the original, like [X Y Z [a b [d e <<k l m>> f g] c [h i j]] W P R]
01:50:57 <oklopol> [X Y Z [a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]] W P R]
01:51:13 <CakeProphet> <oklopol>[[a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]]
01:51:57 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p564464542.txt
01:52:38 <oklopol> but actually [X Y Z [[a b [d e k f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e l f g] c [h i j]] [a b [d e m f g] c [h i j]]] W P R] was the latter, i had a small error
01:53:09 <oklopol> then it'd just be expanded into the list [d e k l m f g]
01:53:24 <CakeProphet> how do you represent a depth 0 negative list?
01:53:40 <oklopol> [a b [d e |k l m| f g] c [h i j]] ==> [a b [d e k l m f g] c [h i j]]
01:53:49 <oklopol> i represented with |...| here
01:54:12 <oklopol> because [<...>] != <[...]>, sadly
01:54:25 <oklopol> and neither is the 0-depth list i think.
01:54:32 <oklopol> i need to hone this concept a bit, still
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01:55:04 <CakeProphet> in the way it evaluates into positive depth lists.
01:55:16 <oklopol> [a b [d e <k l m> f g] c [h i j]] ==> [a b [[d e k f g] [d e l f g] [d e m f g]] c [h i j]]
01:56:03 <oklopol> the negative list makes a list lambda, that is, a list stub that is given some value to fill in a place
01:56:19 <oklopol> you get this stub, or the lambda, by removing the negative list, and replacing with *
01:56:33 <oklopol> you then just "call" the stub for all elems of the negative list
01:56:44 <CakeProphet> so for each duplicate of the original list
01:56:55 <CakeProphet> you fill in a * with just /one/ value from the negative list
01:57:28 <oklopol> yes. except the "original list" here means whatever list is N levels up from the negative one, where N is the negative depth
01:57:45 <oklopol> well try reading the actual notation :P
01:58:08 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure how that could be useful computationally yet, but it makes sense now.
01:58:19 <oklopol> well you can basically do mapping with it.
01:59:20 <oklopol> yep. it's just it can rise over multiple levels, and a decent implementation would do this with iterators or something, so you could do pretty sick mapping tricks
02:00:01 <oklopol> if i had something like a "strong list"
02:00:07 <oklopol> let's mark that with {...}
02:00:18 <oklopol> and i had a kinda strong negative list
02:00:30 <oklopol> let's mark that with... err... \.../
02:00:51 <oklopol> now, we could have some code, say a function, within a strong list
02:01:04 <oklopol> strong lists, both positive and negative ones, work just like the normal ones
02:01:22 <oklopol> a strong negative will go upwards its depth in strong positive lists
02:01:30 <oklopol> so you don't have to calculate how deep you are
02:01:40 <oklopol> you can just surround where you wanna jump out of with a strong list
02:02:05 <oklopol> like {... [... [... \.../ ...] [...] ...] ...}
02:02:08 <CakeProphet> strong list isn't really a good description... I think.
02:02:18 <oklopol> here, the \.../ would jump @ the {...} level
02:02:38 <oklopol> well let's call them thick or something
02:03:20 <oklopol> now, what i didn't actually go through about negative lists, is that they're a bit cleverer than i said earlier
02:03:20 <CakeProphet> (I'm seriously surprised this is all making sense)
02:03:36 <oklopol> [a b <g h i> c d <j k> e f]
02:03:48 <oklopol> now, we have two negatives that both map the upper list
02:04:11 <oklopol> in this case, the mappings happen at the same time, and we get the cartesian product on one mapping level.
02:04:20 <oklopol> in case cartesian product is a weird term, just ignore it
02:05:07 <oklopol> [a b <g h i> c d <j k> e f] ==> [[a b g c d j e f] [a b g c d k e f] [a b h c d j e f] [a b h c d k e f] [a b i c d j e f] [a b i c d k e f]]
02:06:20 <CakeProphet> I get that there's 3*2 duplicates of the positive list surrounding the negatives.
02:06:23 <oklopol> this is not what my current nopol interpreter would do, and there are no thick lists yet, this is all just to show you another possible use, which you might see in a while
02:06:43 <oklopol> and we are doing all possible substitutions from the two lists
02:07:03 <CakeProphet> if you were to describe the substitutes as pairs
02:07:24 <oklopol> we take the lists <g h i> and <j k>, and we take the list lambda [a b #1 c d #2 e f]
02:07:57 <oklopol> then we take all the possible pairs formed by the elements of <g h i> and <j k>
02:08:02 <oklopol> exactly the ones you just listed
02:08:14 <oklopol> except the latter ones would be evaluated first
02:08:23 <oklopol> yes, but let's see how that works out for thick lists
02:08:43 <CakeProphet> you could probably do some neat computations using that implementation.
02:09:03 <oklopol> we can have an arbitrary list inside {...}, containing all kinds of stuff
02:09:09 <oklopol> and, some thick negative lists.
02:09:23 <oklopol> now, can you see how we can do declarative programming with this model?
02:10:09 <oklopol> let's say we have {(== (+ \4 5 6/ \2 3 4/) 6)}
02:10:28 <oklopol> now, 4 5 6 and 2 3 4 would be extracted from inside the thick upper list
02:11:06 <oklopol> so we take the cartesian product of \4 5 6/ and \2 3 4/, and put the pairs, one by one, into {(== (+ #1 #2) 6)}
02:11:23 <oklopol> as this effectively becomes a list of all the possible combinations
02:11:40 <oklopol> we can easily just traverse this thick list until we find a "true" value
02:12:04 <oklopol> in fact, that would produce the list {true false false false false false false false false}
02:12:44 <oklopol> well it's somewhat like amb.
02:12:53 <oklopol> but this is a bit higher level
02:13:07 <oklopol> amb is a function that takes some list of args
02:13:33 <oklopol> and it returns, conceptually, such an arg that nowhere later in the program amb will be called without arguments
02:13:33 <CakeProphet> does the language you currently have declare builtin rewrite rules, or does it assume nothing initially?
02:13:59 <oklopol> it has some rewrite rules, and it actually has quite pretty lambdas and stuff like that
02:14:32 <CakeProphet> if it started off with no functions defined... just for the possibility of being like a typical tree-rewriting esolang
02:14:50 <CakeProphet> and then have a way to, dare I say, import in function defintions...
02:14:57 <oklopol> well sure, at least if i let you make thicker lists, it would own
02:14:58 <CakeProphet> so that you have some builtins in various files.
02:15:18 <oklopol> i guess you could define the concept of lambda yourself
02:15:36 <oklopol> but, i'll be sleeping now, perhaps more lessons about my languages later :P
02:15:56 <CakeProphet> I didn't even pay attention to which brackets I was using.
02:16:29 <CakeProphet> I shall ponder on all of this. it's pretty ridiculously genius.
02:39:59 <CakeProphet> it's nice to actually see esolangs that can explore an utterly new concept and retain practicality (i.e. not a tarball)
02:47:01 <CakeProphet> a - before a single capital letter matches negative lists only... so you could have.
02:47:50 <CakeProphet> but it would be nice to have a neg function defined somehow.
02:48:12 <CakeProphet> that would non-recursively flip the polarity of a list.
02:48:32 <CakeProphet> which would be useful if you had a list that you didn't want to negative-immediately.
02:55:07 <CakeProphet> and then absneg... which does the opposite of abs
03:15:23 <augur> hey! whered tuulia go? >|
03:31:43 <augur> wheres EVERYONE gone?!
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09:52:50 <CakeProphet> after seeing the later levels of those youtube clips
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10:21:30 <tusho> AnMaster: i have definitive proof
10:21:39 <tusho> http://vjn.cc/tusho1
10:21:41 <tusho> http://vjn.cc/tusho2
10:21:47 <tusho> quicktime mov, so propietary but what the hell
10:21:48 <tusho> you can convert it
10:21:59 <tusho> think there's a FOSS decoder for it too
10:22:08 <AnMaster> I think xine or mplayer can do it
10:22:23 <AnMaster> "Tusho is a girl part 1.mov"!?
10:22:37 <tusho> augur thinks I look like a girl
10:23:23 <tusho> i do actually kind of look like a girl
10:23:25 <tusho> until near the end
10:23:29 <tusho> :\ I don't normally look like that.
10:24:22 <tusho> he did record sound
10:24:23 <tusho> I just didn't speak
10:24:48 <tusho> AnMaster: of course, it's obviously a video filter :p
10:24:57 <tusho> or incredibly skilled makeup application
10:25:00 <AnMaster> ok tusho I admit it, you are a 12 year old girl :P
10:25:07 <tusho> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
10:25:22 <tusho> its my headphones that make me look like that
10:25:31 <tusho> i put them on crappily
10:25:53 <AnMaster> tusho, or as there was no proof it was you in fact, no talking about monads or so on, could be your little sister ;)
10:26:04 <AnMaster> well I do think you are a 12 year old girl now
10:26:32 <tusho> i put my headphones on crappily so I looked like a girl.
10:26:36 <tusho> i do not normally look like a girl.
10:26:48 <AnMaster> well what about the long hair</sexist>
10:27:20 <AnMaster> anyway, I certainly didn't know about monads when I was 12...
10:27:52 <AnMaster> you act like you are quite a few years older than 12.
10:28:35 <AnMaster> tusho, but I'm convinced you are a girl now. ;P
10:28:57 <AnMaster> young one, maybe not 12, hard to say, more like 13-14
10:29:01 * tusho searches for birth certificate
10:29:06 <tusho> "AH BUT YOU COULD HAVE HAD A SEX CHANGE"
10:29:23 <tusho> i was mimicking the quality of your arguments
10:29:43 <AnMaster> tusho, well augur also thought you were a girl I assume?
10:29:58 <tusho> well yeah but. i'm not.
10:30:14 <tusho> besides, a 12 year old male talking about monads in #esoteric is improbable enough
10:30:19 <tusho> think of the Internet Female Factor added on to that
10:30:24 <tusho> i'd have to be jesus
10:30:54 <AnMaster> <tusho> besides, a 12 year old male talking about monads in #esoteric is improbable enough
10:31:07 <puzzlet> that's what you claim youself to be?
10:31:08 <fizzie> I've been mistakenly thought of being a girl occasionally, too. Both based on physical appearance and because of the IRC nickname, neither of which I think are very girly.
10:31:12 <AnMaster> it is like 0.00000000000000000000000001% probability
10:31:18 <tusho> AnMaster: yes well, I believe i've proved beyond reasonable doubt the -first- part
10:31:21 <AnMaster> no one is going to believe you
10:31:22 <tusho> it's the gender we're arguing over now :p
10:32:08 <tusho> AnMaster: so wait, i'm not a crazy person who spins a huge story about being 12, so therefore i'm obviously a crazy person who spins a huge story about being male? :)
10:32:36 <fizzie> I guess "obviously crazy" is a given here.
10:32:52 <AnMaster> <tusho> besides, a 12 year old male talking about monads in #esoteric is improbable enough
10:33:30 <tusho> uhh, i spent way too much time on the computer and the interwebs since 1997-1998 and 1998-1999 respectively? :)
10:33:42 <tusho> besides, even if I can't explain it, i've given sufficient evidence
10:33:51 <tusho> apart from the 'male' part, evidently
10:33:55 <AnMaster> your parents let you use internet freely?
10:34:07 <tusho> AnMaster: can't really remember
10:34:13 <tusho> i have a vague recollection of the interwebs, but not beyond that
10:35:02 <fizzie> Raised by the internets.
10:35:22 <tusho> fizzie: I'd be a lot more fscked up if -that- were true :-)
10:40:19 <tusho> AnMaster: obviously it's good camerawork and a voice filter, right
10:42:50 <fizzie> The generic term for any digital manipulation.
10:43:24 <AnMaster> I admit you are a 12-13 year old female
10:43:26 <tusho> fizzie: i don't think i could photoshop video in realtime
10:43:31 <tusho> I am awesome, but not that awesome.
10:43:38 <tusho> And shut the hell up AnMaster, I'm of the male gender.
10:44:21 <fizzie> "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
10:45:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, stop being a sexist to poor tusho
10:45:25 <AnMaster> it can't be easy being female on irc
10:45:35 <AnMaster> what with all us male sexists around
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10:49:05 <tusho> I like that modified quit message
10:50:07 <AnMaster> tusho, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_culture#In_Popular_Culture
10:50:33 <tusho> AnMaster: reverted vandalism
10:50:54 <tusho> that section was just added a few minutes ago, AnMaster
10:50:59 <tusho> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Popular_culture&action=history
10:51:17 <AnMaster> tusho, it was there a few hours ago
10:51:30 <tusho> shrug - it's only been there for three revisions of changing it
10:51:32 <tusho> it has no citations
10:52:03 <AnMaster> 68.112.185.178 (that's not me), obviously had
10:53:09 <tusho> AnMaster: do you think we should have copious amounts of humour in an encyclopedia?
10:53:23 <tusho> what if britannica had 'Infinity' saying 'see Infinity'
10:53:31 <tusho> would you consider that a quality encyclopedia entry?
10:53:42 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wood#In_Popular_Culture_.28see_http:.2F.2Fxkcd.com.2F446.2F.29
10:53:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Popular_culture#Popular_Culture_in_Popular_Culture
10:54:01 <tusho> 1. Needs citations
10:54:06 <tusho> 2. The article does not need that section.
10:54:07 <AnMaster> "For my money, it's not necessarily an Encyclopaedic sort of thing to leave out the jokes. Didn't Denis Diderot cross-list the Eucharist with Cannibalism in one of his editions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.118.228 (talk) 22:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
10:54:07 <AnMaster> I was reading through a C++ dictionary this morning to find "recursion n.: See recursion." Some idea, I suppose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.203.186 (talk) 18:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
10:54:07 <AnMaster> * I wonder how many people died of starvation after getting stuck in that loop. — BRIAN0918"
10:54:08 <tusho> It's a silly joke.
10:54:21 <AnMaster> from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wood
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12:56:52 <Slereah__> But the margin is too small to write it down!
13:00:14 <olsner> Slereah__: quick! grab a new piece of paper and write it all down
13:00:31 <olsner> at least, get around to doing that before you die :P
13:02:11 <Slereah__> Meh. I'll do it when I'm terminally ill.
13:02:38 <AnMaster> fermats last theorem or what was it where the margin was too small?
13:03:48 <Slereah__> "I'll just let people spend three hundred years looking for it"
13:12:05 <olsner> he's been laughing in the afterlife for 300 years :D easily worth it!
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13:19:32 <Deewiant> I think it's most likely that his proof was flawed
13:20:05 <Deewiant> given that the only solid proofs we have now are based on maths that didn't exist at the time
13:45:22 <tusho> Deewiant: yeah, it was probably really trivial
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14:34:06 <oklopol> 11:52… CakeProphet: after seeing the later levels of those youtube clips
14:34:07 <oklopol> 11:52… CakeProphet: stage 1 looks relatively easy.
14:38:57 <oklopol> tusho: the time i read logs
14:39:05 <oklopol> although i didn't start then
14:41:26 <pikhq> For the record: The Orange Box? Totally awesome.
14:41:53 * pikhq tends to buy games months after they come out. (obviously)
14:43:24 <pikhq> tusho: Due to apathy + small budget.
14:43:28 <tusho> pikhq: The Orange Box came out more than months ago.
14:43:46 <pikhq> Probably been about a year now.
14:44:14 <pikhq> Also, it doesn't help that I didn't even play Half-Life until recently. . .
14:44:28 <pikhq> Meaning that, until recently, I didn't give a flying fuck about Valve.
14:51:06 <oklopol> what's this box you're referring to?
14:52:44 <oklopol> i don't get why portal gets so much credit for being original and shit
14:52:53 <oklopol> everyone invents the game when learning about portal culling
14:53:51 <pikhq> I give Portal credit for being a wonderful implementation of the idea.
14:54:04 <Deewiant> but yeah, there was Narbacular Drop and Prey before it
14:54:17 <Deewiant> and yeah, Portal is the best implementation. :-)
14:54:22 <oklopol> pikhq: well in my opinion the flash version looked nicer :P
14:54:37 <pikhq> Valve actually hired the guys who wrote Narbacular Drop for Portal. . .
14:55:04 <pikhq> I've also enjoyed Half-Life 2 immensely so far.
14:55:19 <pikhq> Though "so far" doesn't cover much, since I just got the crowbar.
14:55:28 <oklopol> well that one i won't even bother touching
14:55:43 <oklopol> unless someone actually points out something interesting about it
14:55:54 <pikhq> Play Half-Life 1, and you'll get it.
14:55:57 <oklopol> i doubt it differs much from wolfenstein, which sucked ass
14:56:23 <oklopol> depends on when it came out
14:56:47 <oklopol> then i most likely have played it
14:56:52 <pikhq> "Doubt it differs much from Wolfenstein"?
14:57:05 <oklopol> well you move around and shoot people
14:57:19 <oklopol> there's no cool gravity tricks or portals or anything :O
14:57:36 <Deewiant> gravity tricks do not a game make
14:57:44 <oklopol> i rarely enjoy games for anything but an esoteric movement or possibility to built shit
14:58:19 <pikhq> Half-Life is loved not for it being a FPS, but for it being one with an insanely good story. . .
14:58:35 <pikhq> (and generally being realistic)
14:58:39 <oklopol> well yeah, that instantly makes it sound boring
14:58:55 <Deewiant> half-life 2 has the best overall gameplay of all FPSs I've played, I think
14:59:08 <pikhq> Deewiant: I'd say its story is part of what makes the gameplay so damned wonderful.
14:59:11 <Deewiant> though that of course means that it's rather linear
14:59:17 <oklopol> fps is not an interesting paradigm tho, imo, so that doesn't say much
15:02:37 <pikhq> It seems that Half-Life is the greatest FPS.
15:02:51 <pikhq> At least, according to reviews. . .
15:03:18 <pikhq> And personal experience.
15:06:22 <Deewiant> for single player, yes, probably.
15:06:30 <Deewiant> the series as a whole, at least.
15:08:07 <pikhq> Given that Half-Life's 'multiplayer mode' entails another game on the same engine, I'd say Half-Life has no chance of being the best multiplayer FPS. :p
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15:09:38 <ais523> [15:09] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 20 seconds.
15:09:46 <ais523> but I understand why you wouldn't have seen my reply
15:09:48 <tusho> I shall check the logs
15:09:55 <ais523> tusho: I think they'll show you winning
15:10:00 <ais523> given how bad that ping time was
15:10:02 <tusho> ais523: and you can check yours
15:10:06 <tusho> they log when you type
15:10:55 <ais523> [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:09:04] <ais523> hi tusho
15:11:01 <ais523> [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:09:22] <tusho> hi ais523
15:11:09 <ais523> [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:09:24] <tusho> OH YEAH
15:11:16 <ais523> that should be enough to calculate the relative clock skew
15:11:25 <ais523> wow, we're taking this /far/ too seriously...
15:13:05 <tusho> <envelope><sender self="yes" hostmask="tusho@91.105.112.94">tusho</sender><message id="PZ2T7Q30LU1" received="2008-07-18 15:09:26 +0100">hi <span class="member">ais523</span> </message><message id="I2HKCR30LU1" received="2008-07-18 15:09:27 +0100">OH YEAH</message></envelope><envelope><sender hostmask="n=ais523@gb01-fap04.bham.ac.uk">ais523</sender><message id="LG7DKW30LU1" received="2008-07-18 15:09:32 +0100" highlight="yes">hi <span class="highlight member
15:13:11 <tusho> terrible log forma
15:13:15 <ais523> tusho: it logs in XML?
15:13:17 <tusho> but i'm sure you can work it out
15:13:26 <tusho> 'cause it does things like linkify people names
15:13:34 <tusho> it's a right-clickable thing.
15:14:13 <ais523> according to your logs, you said hi ais523 four seconds after I received your hi
15:14:32 <tusho> of course, your clock is wrong
15:14:59 <oklopol> ais523: do you have an idea for the graph->eoderm unparsing??
15:15:20 <ais523> well, if we consider the OH YEAH to have arrived instantly, the clock difference is 3 seconds, so you lost by quite a way
15:15:25 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:15:35 <tusho> ais523: i'm fairly sure I won, i think it's clock skew
15:15:37 <tusho> definitely not 3 seconds anyway
15:15:52 <ais523> tusho: well, your messages are coming pretty instantly at the moment
15:16:00 <tusho> ais523: but you were lagging -then-
15:16:15 <ais523> but we'll still have the same relative clock skew
15:16:15 <oklopol> i'll come back when you've solved this
15:16:37 <tusho> i think our clients and ntp servers are too different to try and attempt this ais523
15:16:45 <tusho> but I was focused in the input box about to type to pikhq when you entered
15:16:49 <tusho> and i noticed immediately and started typing
15:17:14 <ais523> tusho: I just sent you a ctcp-time, that'll put bounds on the clock skew between us
15:17:17 <ais523> let me look at it in the logs
15:17:26 <tusho> it'll be offset by a bit, ais523
15:18:01 <ais523> tusho: you have to have replied between the time I sent the CTCP and the time I received it
15:18:08 <ais523> so that will put /bounds/ on the lag
15:18:18 <ais523> [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:16:45] CTCP Sending CTCP-time request to tusho.
15:18:18 <ais523> [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:16:45] <tusho> but I was focused in the input box about to type to pikhq when you entered
15:18:18 <ais523> [Fri Jul 18 2008] [15:16:46] CTCP Received CTCP-time reply from tusho: 2008-07-18 15:16:50 +0100
15:18:27 <ais523> IOW, the lag is either 4 or 5 seconds
15:18:52 <ais523> probably me joining the channel didn't reach your end until after I'd already typed hi, due to network lag
15:19:26 <tusho> ais523: i know that we don't count network lag, but shouldn't it be -relative to when we actually know we're there-
15:19:36 <ais523> tusho: yes, but then it's basically impossible to adjudicate
15:19:36 <tusho> so network lag in 'actually having any chance' vs 'delaying our messages'
15:19:40 <ais523> shall we just give up on this game now?
15:19:48 <tusho> ais523: tunes.org has objective logs
15:19:52 <tusho> for the purpose of 'join time'
15:20:14 <oklopol> people, you do realize this is a trivial problem
15:20:33 <oklopol> assuming you compete about reaction time
15:20:53 <ais523> oklopol: what solution do you suggest, given that competing at all is a bit silly and all this has got out of hand?
15:21:35 <oklopol> ais523: well i guess in this exact situation i'd say you call it a draw and you answer my eodermdrome question :P
15:22:15 <ais523> oklopol: well, the problem is that of finding a path that passes through all edges of the graph
15:22:24 <ais523> and I'm not sure that that's trivial to do, mathematically
15:22:44 <oklopol> i'm thinking, probably trivial to get a solution, but np to get the best one?
15:22:56 <oklopol> i'd go for evolutive here.
15:23:10 <oklopol> except it seems like there could be something simple and static for the approximation
15:23:51 <oklopol> it's just i hadn't actually given it any thought, and the python code didn't write itself, so i figured perhaps it's not *that* trivial
15:24:22 <oklopol> i still haven't given it any thought, just thought you might, as you suggested the unparsing
15:24:40 <oklopol> the graph can never disconnect with the drop protection rule
15:25:22 <oklopol> actually i don't think that's the case
15:25:50 <oklopol> well actually i don't not think that.
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15:26:33 <oklopol> ah, i think i have the "proof"
15:27:01 <oklopol> to get the one component to split
15:27:30 <oklopol> you'd have to find a node that needs to be dropped in order to split it
15:27:42 <oklopol> to actually get rid of that, you have to match it, that's for sure
15:28:05 <oklopol> but, you can only match on something that will be dropped if you have all the connections explicitly on the left side
15:28:36 <oklopol> and, because the right side is always one interconnected component, there is no way you can drop the node without making a connection between the components on both its sides
15:30:08 <oklopol> except i'll make a stupid parsing at first, since i'm lazy
15:30:27 <ais523> oklopol: that's it, I think
15:30:38 <oklopol> just whitespace splitted, so basically (...) can't contain whitespace, otherwise the same
15:31:11 <oklopol> i need to make oklotalk... i simply cannot use regexps
15:31:16 <oklopol> they're just so goddamn ugly.
15:31:26 <oklopol> i mean, when used as a dsl
15:32:19 <oklopol> that is, because you can't generalize for arbitrary sequences
15:32:38 <ais523> are you trying to persuade me to get back to writing Cyclexa again?
15:33:07 <oklopol> does cyclexa let you use it for other than string data?
15:34:20 <ais523> but it's really designed for string handling
15:34:24 <oklopol> basically, that you could use an arbitrary iterable data structure given some bijection between the objects contained in it and strings.
15:34:34 <ais523> Cyclexa's TC, after all
15:34:41 <ais523> the question is just how good it is at doing certain things
15:34:45 <oklopol> which you could of course do with any regexp motor, it's just... ugly.
15:36:13 <oklopol> i've been thinking about the arbitrary complex graph -> basic graph thingie... you could basically write tree rewriting code and compile to eodermdrome
15:36:33 <oklopol> assuming it's not too hard to do the unparsing thing
15:36:52 <oklopol> also, it's kinda nontrivial to get more elements than the alphabet contains
15:37:16 <oklopol> with string rewriting you can just start using longer strings as atoms, and make sure there will be no matching on only a part of them
15:37:34 <oklopol> but here, you will have to use danglers to differentiate between shit
15:37:41 <oklopol> actually, i think it's even worse
15:37:53 <oklopol> because you simply cannot have more than |alphabet| nodes at first.
15:38:03 <oklopol> so you need to have rules for the expansion
15:38:13 <oklopol> so i guess the compilation will not happen, actually :P
15:42:36 <tusho> oklopol: i'm going to make a thing like that portal flash game, but without restrictions. like you can shoot a portal onto itself
15:43:01 <Deewiant> shooting a portal through a portal? that worked in narbacular drop
15:43:13 <Deewiant> and made moving around a bit too easy IMO
15:43:14 <tusho> did you just kind of fall into it
15:43:17 <tusho> and never come back
15:43:31 <tusho> i mean, let's work it out
15:43:35 <tusho> you've shot the first one
15:43:39 <tusho> so you can stand on it, it's not active
15:43:41 <tusho> then you shoot the second on it
15:43:44 <tusho> so it's on top of it
15:43:51 <tusho> so, if you go through it
15:43:56 <tusho> you'll just go through an infinite tunnel of portals
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15:44:13 <Deewiant> well what would happen is you'd bob up and down there
15:44:32 <tusho> Deewiant: no, think about it
15:44:35 <tusho> you land on the second one
15:44:40 <tusho> which goes to the first one, to the second
15:44:43 <tusho> but they're right on top of each other
15:44:49 <tusho> so it's like an infinite tube of portals
15:44:55 <Deewiant> unless you see portals are twodirectional
15:45:08 <Deewiant> i.e. if you have a portal in midair
15:45:11 <tusho> you bob up and down when they're -close-
15:45:12 <Deewiant> you could walk into it from both directions
15:45:42 <Deewiant> but if they're on top of each other, the way I see it is you fall into the one that's on top and come out the other, repeat.
15:45:51 <Deewiant> of course if they intersect you're fucked. :-P
15:46:40 <tusho> Deewiant: my game will be 2d
15:46:44 <tusho> so i'm not sure how that changes things
15:47:21 <tusho> i mean, i'm just going to implement portal as
15:47:23 <Deewiant> at least, I can't think of anything. :-P
15:47:31 <tusho> collision { player.x = dest.x; player.y = dest.y; player.dir = dest.dir }
15:48:50 <Deewiant> yeah, and that should work fine.
15:49:09 <tusho> Deewiant: won't I have to handle accelleration though
15:49:18 <tusho> as far as I can see
15:49:30 <oklopol> you need to add the difference of the directions of the portals to the direction of the player
15:49:44 <tusho> oklopol: well, the player.dir = dest.dir was kind of an abbreviation
15:50:12 <Deewiant> why wouldn't exactly that work?
15:50:13 <oklopol> but no you don't handle acceleration
15:50:42 <oklopol> acceleration can be considered something that never changes smoothly, but is always set to specific value right away
15:51:09 <oklopol> let's say you want to shoot something through a portal
15:51:17 <oklopol> any bullet will just shoot towards the normal
15:51:22 <oklopol> that would be so much fun.
15:52:02 <oklopol> same for the player, but you won't see it as directly
15:52:41 <oklopol> (as you don't control player movement in advance, but as you go)
15:53:08 <oklopol> btw. about esoteric movement, wanna hear a game idea of mine?
15:53:24 <oklopol> 2d game, there's this elliptical thing, representing you
15:53:58 <oklopol> you have two sides, the blue one, and the red one, these are the focal points
15:54:29 <oklopol> two for the blue one, two for the red one
15:54:38 <oklopol> and you can set their kinda magnetism value
15:54:51 <oklopol> pressing the blue-up key makes your blue side lift up
15:55:01 <oklopol> and the blue-down makes it press against the floor
15:55:21 <tusho> there's things attracted to only red
15:55:24 <oklopol> "up" and "down" relatively, as gravity would be separate, and these would always press against the nearest wall
15:55:24 <tusho> and things only to blue
15:55:27 <tusho> and you have to use them to navigate?
15:55:31 <oklopol> so you could run up a wall or something.
15:55:33 <tusho> by getting the magnetism just right
15:55:42 <oklopol> well yes, those exist in latter levels
15:55:56 <oklopol> also things you can't press against, only lift upwards from
15:56:14 <oklopol> anyway, basically, you could float a bit by pressing both ups
15:56:24 <oklopol> and keep still by pressing both downs
15:56:26 <tusho> oklopol: why make it in later levels? it'd be more fun with just liftmagblue dropmagblue and the same for red
15:56:35 <tusho> and you have to adjust red to fly up to the first red-attractor thing
15:56:39 <tusho> (but not too much or you'll crack)
15:56:43 <tusho> and then adjust it for the blue
15:56:44 <oklopol> tusho: i imagine just moving around will be incredibly fun.
15:56:45 <tusho> and there could be like hazards
15:56:48 <tusho> so you'd have to do it fast enough
15:57:20 <oklopol> tusho: the magnets aren't that strong, you have to get rotation to start moving
15:57:32 <oklopol> i don't want a flying game, i want incredibly hard movement :P
15:57:35 <tusho> oklopol: just make it start off a level rotating
15:57:42 <tusho> and bashing into things slows it down
15:57:46 <tusho> but if you move in the right way
15:57:52 <tusho> and therefore speed up
15:58:04 <tusho> if you go to a standstill, well, you've fucked up :)
15:58:06 <oklopol> you can get spin by yourself
15:58:12 <tusho> oklopol: yeah, i'm just saying
15:58:34 <oklopol> well i do know how much you like your ideas :P
15:58:44 <tusho> oklopol: doesn't it sound fun though.
15:58:53 <tusho> swish and spin and get the magnets right to snap on to a safe part
15:58:58 <tusho> to avoid flying obstacles
15:59:04 <tusho> then adjust it a bit to get the blue to the side
15:59:08 <tusho> you start spinning to it
15:59:14 <tusho> and adjust it just before you reach the end
15:59:17 <oklopol> so you need to master the movement
15:59:32 <tusho> oklopol: mine would just need you to get a 'feel' of the guy
15:59:44 <tusho> then you could just do it almost effortlessly :p
15:59:49 <tusho> well, not really, the challenges would get harder
16:00:00 <tusho> ooh, there could be magnets which act as switches when you hit them
16:00:27 <oklopol> well i'd prefer the harder levels to be about getting your jumps right, and jumping at all, learning to go up walls and stuff like that
16:00:44 <tusho> oklopol: see, i think those would actually be a lot less fun
16:00:53 <tusho> i think if you strip it down to my idea (which is pretty minimal) it'd be nice
16:00:56 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Success).
16:00:58 <tusho> only four keys to handle
16:01:02 <tusho> but loads of possibilities
16:01:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:01:48 <oklopol> blah. i wan't it to be about mastering the physics
16:01:54 <tusho> thats what mine would be about!
16:01:58 <oklopol> anyway, you can do anything with the ellipse
16:02:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:02:03 <tusho> it'd just be purely that, instead of rotating manually and stuff
16:02:05 <oklopol> that was the point of the idea
16:02:13 <oklopol> i don't care that much about the actual gameplay :P
16:02:26 <tusho> oklopol: mine would be about mastering the physics but it'd actually be fun
16:02:53 <oklopol> deterministic challenge = fun
16:03:08 <oklopol> doesn't matter what you have, as long as it's about skill, and it's possible to pass
16:03:16 <tusho> oklopol: see, that's what mine is
16:03:21 <tusho> it's just a distilled version of your idea
16:03:32 <tusho> taking out the half that i don't really think is fun, and expanding on the bit I think is more fun and challenging
16:03:35 <oklopol> well i'm not sure what your exact idea was, just seemed like you were awfully fond with flying about aimlessly :D
16:04:08 <tusho> oklopol: shall i kinda like, dictate a puzzle and how you'd solve it
16:05:05 <oklopol> i'm not going for the puzzle approach, so i guess that's a difference
16:05:24 <oklopol> puzzles are boring, you shouldn't mix fun movement with problem solving.
16:05:40 <tusho> oklopol: it isn't a mix
16:05:49 <tusho> it's that the fun movement actually ties in with the problem solving
16:05:59 <oklopol> sure sure, dictate the puzzle
16:06:02 <tusho> so, oklopol, invision a black screen in your mind
16:06:09 <tusho> you have this capsule guy (====) kind of like a pill
16:06:13 <tusho> <--left half is blue
16:06:16 <tusho> right half is red-->
16:06:24 <tusho> so, you start off the level
16:06:34 <tusho> and it's on the floor, flipping liek this
16:06:51 <tusho> and, there's this red thing at the top
16:06:59 <tusho> so, you hold the 'increase red' key
16:07:07 <tusho> and when it flips near, it goes into the air
16:07:07 <oklopol> ah, you don't have gravity
16:07:15 <tusho> but your magnetism is more powerful than it
16:07:21 <tusho> that's the fun bit
16:07:26 <tusho> you need to be latching on to a magnet
16:07:26 <oklopol> so it will be falling down right away?
16:07:34 <tusho> anyway, it spirals to the red thing
16:07:37 <tusho> and snaps on to it
16:07:39 <tusho> because it's a magnet
16:07:46 <tusho> so, there's another blue one to the right --->
16:07:52 <tusho> you've just bounced off the red one
16:07:55 <tusho> but you're floating around it
16:07:57 <tusho> because your red is up
16:08:01 <tusho> so you put it down and crank the blue up
16:08:06 <tusho> and you spiral on to the other one, which bounces you down
16:08:12 <tusho> kind of like jumping through magnets
16:08:23 <tusho> anyway there'd be like flying obstacles
16:08:31 <tusho> and whenever you hit somethign you'd slow down your spinning
16:08:37 <tusho> stop spinning or crack because you bashed something too hard = game over
16:08:47 <tusho> and you have to get to the level exit or whatever through that
16:09:17 <tusho> oklopol: i think it'd be fun
16:09:50 <oklopol> well if collisions and movement on the floor isn't that essential, that's trivial to do
16:10:05 <tusho> oklopol: isn't that essential?
16:10:08 <tusho> that's the most part
16:10:17 <oklopol> oh, i thought it was mostly about flying about
16:10:18 <tusho> when you've bashed off a magnet, you can like bounce on the floor
16:10:21 <tusho> and then move to another one
16:10:25 <tusho> the gravity is there
16:10:27 <tusho> but it's more floaty
16:10:31 <tusho> and your magnetism is strong
16:10:37 <tusho> so, like, if you've just dropped down your X
16:10:40 <tusho> and you were near an X magnet
16:10:43 <tusho> you could bounce on the floor
16:10:47 <tusho> and then that'd put you close enough to a Y magnet
16:10:50 <tusho> so that you could up the Y and float to it
16:11:04 <tusho> the actual game mechanics are trivial but it lets you do loads of stuff
16:11:23 <oklopol> i guess you just like a different kind of level than i, that sounds a bit trivial and boring to me
16:11:49 <oklopol> err, the actual game mechanics with collisions and all are not trivial
16:12:04 <tusho> oklopol: well, what's not fun about mine?
16:12:06 <oklopol> well dunno, perhaps it's all trivial to you
16:12:06 <tusho> you have to master the movement
16:12:11 <tusho> and do some flying and avoiding
16:12:14 <tusho> using your leet movement skillz
16:12:28 <oklopol> tusho: well the only difference is you want to fly about, and i want to move around
16:12:39 <tusho> mine doesn't spend all the time flying around
16:12:53 <tusho> it's just what happens with slightly floaty gravity and when you're magnetizerating on to stuff
16:12:58 <oklopol> well okay, i'll believe it's the exact same idea as mine then, okay.
16:13:50 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps i should add gravity balls to bounca
16:14:10 <oklopol> basically static balls you can fall towards
16:14:17 <oklopol> with the normal gravity switch
16:14:29 <tusho> oklopol: i'd love to play this game of yours mind
16:14:51 <oklopol> tusho: have you played bounca?
16:15:12 <tusho> http://www.gamegarage.co.uk/puzzle-games/bounce/
16:16:25 <tusho> http://www.gamegarage.co.uk/puzzle-games/bounce/ looks fun though :P
16:16:27 <tusho> oklopol: is it windows only
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16:20:32 <oklopol> just press space, no other keys
16:26:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, you want larger font on that website
16:27:02 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
16:27:09 <tusho> its totally readable
16:27:27 <AnMaster> 1) light grey text on dark grey
16:27:34 <AnMaster> tusho, want a screenshot then?
16:27:41 <tusho> and it's not that contrsced
16:31:57 <AnMaster> tusho, http://omploader.org/vbTUw
16:32:15 <tusho> your fonts are broken :)
16:32:53 <tusho> your screenshot is different
16:33:05 <tusho> its far bigger for me
16:33:13 <AnMaster> default monospace: bitstream vera sans mono 16 pt
16:33:37 <AnMaster> default sans serif: helvetica 16 pt
16:33:48 <AnMaster> default serif: times new roman 16 pt
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16:34:32 <tusho> AnMaster: your browser is broken then.
16:34:49 <AnMaster> yes I know it is broken, we just all just use konq
16:34:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I say the website is broken
16:35:05 <AnMaster> and oklopol see http://omploader.org/vbTUw
16:35:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why aren't you on 3.x
16:35:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because an usable theme doesn't yet exist for it
16:35:52 <AnMaster> and it isn't stable on stable gentoo yet
16:36:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, one that looks like the default theme of firefox 1.5
16:36:11 <Deewiant> stable gentoo seems more and more like stable debian :-P
16:36:27 <AnMaster> nah we don't use iceweasle crap
16:36:38 <tusho> AnMaster: enjoy your non-free
16:36:40 <pikhq> I follow stable Gentoo with certain packages from unstable. . .
16:36:43 <Deewiant> rather, in that updates are teh slow
16:36:59 <tusho> AnMaster: firefox's artwork is non-free.
16:37:04 <pikhq> tusho: I don't use Firefox, so I needn't care.
16:37:06 <tusho> so, debian used their own replacement artwork.
16:37:12 <tusho> then, mozilla contacted them
16:37:17 <tusho> and yelled at them until they changed the name from Firefox
16:37:30 <tusho> because, apparently, Firefox can only be called that if it contains non-free artwork.
16:37:41 <tusho> so, uh, joke's on you, thought you were using a free browser.
16:37:43 <AnMaster> which is why I prefer konq when I can
16:37:53 <ais523> tusho: the browser's entirely free, it just has a non-free name
16:37:53 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes I know the reason
16:37:54 <pikhq> I'm surprised Debian's not bothered to just use GNU Iceweasel.
16:38:01 <AnMaster> ais523, hi didn't see you join
16:38:06 <tusho> ais523: the browser includes the name, take a look at its source.
16:38:10 <pikhq> Hrm. They did a name change.
16:38:13 <pikhq> Make that GNU Icecat.
16:38:26 <tusho> pikhq: EARTHFERRET
16:38:28 <ais523> it'll be done by the next release, don't worry
16:38:38 <ais523> I did pull the latest version of cfunge to test against, though
16:38:49 <ais523> presumably all I need to do is change the fingerprint version and handprint override?
16:38:51 -!- olsner has quit.
16:38:58 <tusho> oklopol: bouncer play GO
16:39:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I did send some mail about it iirc
16:39:09 <augur> youre like the token girl esolanger
16:39:09 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, you did
16:39:11 <augur> only you're not a girl
16:39:33 <tusho> hitting space does nothing
16:40:09 <pikhq> Basically, GNU Icecat = Mozilla Firefox - nonfree artwork - the nonfree Talkback program - plugin finder service (which recommends nonfree software) + no web bugs + warn on URL redirection.
16:40:10 <augur> deewiant: the video of him where he looks like a girl.
16:40:12 <tusho> Deewiant: the crusade of Convince AnMaster That I Am Actually 12 And Not Just a Pathological Liar
16:40:17 <tusho> i gave voice evidence
16:40:30 <tusho> etc. so it ended up me having to do a voice conference over skype.
16:40:42 <tusho> augur (the recorder) and AnMaster then claimed that I was 12, but female. :p
16:40:50 <AnMaster> yes and she proved she is 12 indeed
16:40:52 <tusho> i don't normally look like I did.
16:40:53 <ais523> pikhq: warn on URL redirection?
16:41:04 <AnMaster> she also revealed herself as a female
16:41:07 <augur> i dont think you're actually female but you look like one.
16:41:12 <tusho> AnMaster: oh shut the fuck up
16:41:19 <pikhq> ais523: "Other sites rewrite the host name in links redirecting the user to another site, mainly to "spy" on clicks. When this behavior is detected, IceCat shows a message alerting the user."
16:41:56 <ais523> AnMaster: no, like Google, where they redirect all the links in the results via themselves
16:42:02 <ais523> to see which ones are being clicked on
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16:42:10 <AnMaster> well I use customizegoogle plugin
16:42:35 <tusho> AnMaster: in case they sell your search clicks to the government?
16:42:36 <AnMaster> also I believe some custom privoxy rules could do it as well
16:42:45 <tusho> and they, uh, arrest you for ... using google? :p
16:42:48 <AnMaster> tusho, because I don't like being tracked
16:43:03 <tusho> they use it to improve the search results, AnMaster
16:43:04 <AnMaster> privoxy is good to remove ads and crap
16:43:11 <tusho> /shrug I don't care if people see what I click through searches.
16:43:17 <tusho> i prefer an optimized google
16:43:24 <tusho> how do you play this
16:43:32 <Deewiant> removing the redirection optimizes since it links directly instead of through google ;-)
16:43:48 <tusho> Deewiant: few ms for click of search result VS time spent finding link
16:44:21 <Deewiant> few ms running some client-side javascript versus doing an extra HTTP request
16:45:28 <tusho> Deewiant: google uses the link tracking to change the ranks of things for searches
16:46:05 <Deewiant> oh, so you think it'll make a difference in your future searches?
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17:00:45 <oklopol> tusho: how do you play bounca?
17:00:48 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
17:00:53 <tusho> that's what i'd like to know
17:01:01 <tusho> and there's a green thing
17:01:03 <tusho> but I just go vertical
17:01:04 <augur> lemme see this game?
17:01:20 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
17:01:49 <tusho> if I put it in edit mode
17:01:53 <tusho> and bounce off them
17:01:53 <oklopol> AnMaster: i doubt anyone in vjn cares whether the page works for people who are not part of vjn.
17:03:10 <oklopol> tusho: holding space disables gravity
17:03:15 <tusho> that doesn't help.
17:03:18 <oklopol> or the other way around, i don't remember
17:03:43 <tusho> oklopol: the default level is unusable
17:03:44 <tusho> is what i'm saying
17:05:26 <oklopol> actually, seems that may be an old version
17:06:59 <augur> give me a link >_<
17:07:08 <oklopol> hmm, right, there is some very weird timer bug @ bounca
17:07:09 <augur> and dont ignore me >_<
17:07:17 <oklopol> vjn.fi, just follow the games link
17:07:20 <augur> and whats your real name
17:08:36 <augur> oklopol, how do i make this work? :D
17:08:48 <oklopol> well you need python + pygame
17:08:51 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:09:05 <oklopol> we're a group with a random name
17:14:56 <oklopol> basically, i store start_time once as the time when the game starts, and i'm drawing "%4.1f"%(time.clock()-self.start_time) each cycle
17:15:02 <oklopol> how does that go wrong i wonder
17:18:06 <oklopol> takes about 8.5 seconds for the ball to reach the triangle on the bottom
17:20:12 <oklopol> augur: why would you wanna know my real nme?
17:20:23 <augur> cause i like knowing peoples real names.
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17:20:46 <oklopol> oh, that version online is actually very, very old :o
17:20:59 <oklopol> and it runs much faster than the version i have
17:25:00 <oklopol> tusho: just change line 373 to clock.tick(15)
17:25:04 <augur> your boyfriend is difficult :P
17:25:44 <oklopol> there may be some other changes too, i should upload the new level
17:26:28 <augur> so guys, are we gonna make a podcast? :o
17:28:38 <oklopol> tusho: CHANGE THAT LINE AND IT SHOULD BE PLAYABLE
17:28:43 <tusho> i fucked up the level
17:29:23 <oklopol> well yeah we have a dl limit on vjn.fi, you can't ever download the original again
17:30:05 <oklopol> it's not even ip based, it just knows.
17:31:07 * ais523 starts to spec up Eodermdrome
17:31:12 <ais523> oklopol: I'll let you see it once I'm finished
17:31:59 <tusho> augur: im ready for podcasting whenever you are.
17:32:08 <augur> well i dont know what we'll talk about XD
17:32:10 <tusho> we should totally improvise it.
17:32:15 <augur> no we shouldnt lol
17:32:25 <tusho> augur: yes, we can just have long bouts of silence when we think of stuff to talk about
17:32:28 <tusho> and edit it out in the final version
17:32:42 <tusho> i hate strict regimes! stalin!
17:32:59 <tusho> i'll record this time
17:33:25 <augur> maybe we dont even need to just talk about esolangs.
17:33:35 <augur> since this whole room is only like 10% esolangs XD
17:33:41 <tusho> as long as the subject is esoteric
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17:33:46 <tusho> that's the one thing #esoteric always is
17:33:55 <augur> yeah you're esoteric alright
17:34:19 <oklopol> ais523: well i think i know all about it, but yeah, would be nice
17:34:24 <tusho> oklopol: you'd better be ready to talk too.
17:34:34 <Sgeo> Ready for what?
17:34:34 <oklopol> also, could you make something that outputs somethign interesting?
17:34:43 <tusho> Sgeo: me, oklopol and augur are doing a podcast
17:34:44 <tusho> about esolangs, and, uh.
17:34:48 <ais523> oklopol: I'll try, it's a little hard to program in but I'll try to come up with a good example
17:34:48 <oklopol> i have output now, and input as long as it's given as a string
17:35:04 <tusho> augur: oh, you're ready? good! i'm glad!
17:35:05 <tusho> i'll call you then!
17:35:13 <augur> and ill deny it :P
17:35:30 <tusho> augur: jeez, what are you doing, planning a 55-page long program schedule?
17:36:16 <augur> i i just want some topics before we do anything
17:36:26 <tusho> oklopol's crazy game ideas
17:36:31 <tusho> esowiki -> random article -> discuss
17:36:36 <tusho> and finally, NOMADS
17:36:37 <augur> i dont know about his game ideas but ok
17:36:52 <oklopol> hey, i agreed to nothing! :D
17:37:12 <augur> you dont have to agree to anything
17:37:23 <tusho> yeah, we'll just prod oklopol into actually talking.
17:38:31 <oklopol> well i can have a skype call xor talk.
17:39:24 <tusho> and talk when we need to ask something or whatever.
17:39:28 <tusho> without it going into the podcast
17:39:42 <oklopol> i need to go to the shop now :)
17:40:33 <oklopol> may even take too long for you to be able to wait
17:40:44 <oklopol> what a sad coincidence will that be :<
17:40:52 <tusho> oklopol: like that'll happen
17:42:49 <oklopol> ais523: are you getting anywhere?
17:43:06 <ais523> but I've only just started
17:43:18 <oklopol> yeah, i'm just a bit impatient.
17:43:27 <oklopol> i'll try something trivial first
17:44:12 <oklopol> run("a a (moi) a","ukkometso",3)
17:44:29 <oklopol> 3 is the amount of rewrites
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17:50:35 <augur> holy mother of god installing pygame is taking forever
18:04:50 <ais523> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
18:04:57 <ais523> now I just have to write an example...
18:08:07 <Sgeo> tusho, ##nomic isn't just for rootnomic players
18:08:24 <Sgeo> Why did you leave?
18:08:34 <tusho> i wasn't intersted with the discussion
18:09:00 <Sgeo> I have 12 tabs open. I'm only interested in the discussion in 3
18:24:58 <lament> Yes! You should never leave any channels you enter!
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18:26:32 <tusho> Deewiant: i just saw a reddit comment by you
18:32:02 <oklopol> also it *is* trivial to make the unparsing
18:32:07 <ais523> also, I'm considering having non-comma punctuation marks cancel out the whitespace surrounding thwm
18:32:17 <ais523> so you can have more natural-looking programs
18:32:25 <oklopol> basically, you start with a boolean array for each connection
18:32:54 <oklopol> so you could have periods after sentences and such?
18:33:05 <ais523> Deewiant: whoops, s/\$/?/
18:33:11 <ais523> oklopol: yes, that's it
18:33:38 <ais523> Deewiant: that isn't a syntax error
18:33:44 <ais523> \$ matches a literal $
18:33:50 <ais523> and replacements use literal ?
18:34:21 <oklopol> ais523: so, a false corresponding to each connection
18:34:31 <oklopol> representing whether that connection already exists in the string
18:34:37 <oklopol> then you just decide one random node
18:35:14 <oklopol> and you start moving completely randomly, each time when you move, you just append the character representing the node, and you tag the corresponding boolean to true
18:35:20 <oklopol> when all booleans are true, you're done
18:35:49 <ais523> oklopol: that works, but may produce pretty long output
18:35:49 <oklopol> also i think you can do this deterministically by going through connections one by one, and only backtracking when all is exhausted in a node
18:36:05 <oklopol> ais523: yes, but that's the incredibly trivial stupid way.
18:36:22 <oklopol> i think my latter explanation works with a similar, recursive approach
18:36:48 <oklopol> i think it's not np, actually, but actually very simple
18:36:58 <oklopol> but i would need to try on paper
18:39:54 <oklopol> well everything with graphs is of course either O(v+e) or np-complete :)
18:40:48 <oklopol> not of course, but i think that generic a structure just somehow is always either trivial to compute something about, or instantly allows the structure to kill all possibility to optimize
18:41:21 <ais523> maybe finding the shortest answer is np-complete
18:41:50 <oklopol> well it prolly is, but i think the difference will not be huge for a simple approach
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19:09:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, with that http://www.vjn.fi/r/ thing, how do you link a https url?
19:27:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: probably not possible if it prepends http://.
19:41:09 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:48:40 <tusho> AnMaster: here's how you do it
19:48:55 <tusho> 1. write a php script that redirects you to the uri given in get
19:49:00 <tusho> so like /script.php?url=http://google.com
19:49:05 <tusho> 2. make the vjn.cc redirect to that
19:55:48 <Hiato> oklopol, have you read my latest creation's spec?
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20:18:58 <tusho> oklopol: what game should I make
20:20:54 <Deewiant> been made a couple dozen times over
20:25:22 <tusho> pikhq: I was thinking kinda simpler.
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20:50:40 <tusho> it's called PSOX and it's terrible, awful
20:51:00 <tusho> of course he never got around to actually adding guis...
20:51:30 <Sgeo> If anyone expressed interest, I would
20:51:47 <tusho> Sgeo: they don't, because psox and the idea behind it is terrible :|
20:52:11 <Sgeo> pikhq wrote a wget thing for PSOX/BF
20:52:45 <pikhq> CakeProphet: That would be Def-BF. . .
20:53:02 <pikhq> Which is taking me so long to bother writing, it's almost as vaporware-esque as PSOX. :p
20:53:07 <tusho> Def-BF isn't really that interseting.
20:53:08 <Sgeo> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk
20:53:15 <pikhq> tusho: It's fun, though.
20:53:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, PSOX is not vaporware!
20:53:16 <tusho> brainfuck is Done.
20:53:22 <tusho> Sgeo: hahahahahahaha
20:53:26 <tusho> oh, you're a great comedian Sgeo
20:53:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: It was once.
20:53:35 <tusho> has anyone else seen the 'easter egg' in psox
20:53:44 <pikhq> And now, it functions, but only barely.
20:53:57 <Sgeo> I'd work on it if anyone cared..
20:53:58 <tusho> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/changeset/95
20:54:05 <pikhq> It'd perhaps be better-used if I were still in my PEBBLE-using mode.
20:57:34 <CakeProphet> to have something that allowed BF to be used to make like... a big application.
20:59:41 <CakeProphet> ....the only way I could see BF being used to program an entire game... or a server... etc.
21:00:23 <CakeProphet> each of them roughly equivalent to a data structure.
21:00:34 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, it would be theoretically possible with PSOX.. oh, you mean reasonably..
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21:02:34 <CakeProphet> I should get around to writing a good bugSophia operator
21:04:12 <CakeProphet> the most visually awesome cat program ever.
21:06:23 <Deewiant> hmm, that paste didn't quite succeed O_o
21:06:42 <Deewiant> but somehow there's an additional "<v" in the first line
21:07:10 <CakeProphet> bugSophia is kind of like those befunge-with-tracks languages... except it splits into like four billion threads of execution
21:09:28 <CakeProphet> in fact... I will start working on the interpreter today.
21:09:42 <oklopol> sophia has a bug nowadays?
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21:10:39 <CakeProphet> and would destroy the whole you-can-time-the-steps-each-thread-takes-because-they-all-increment-at-the-same-time
21:12:15 <oklopol> well i hear oses generally set their thread limit at somewhere near three billion
21:12:26 <oklopol> so sophia just misses that train
21:13:19 <CakeProphet> Hello, World would spawn... -counts- 14 threads.
21:16:33 <oklopol> i recall you talking a lot about sophia, used to be about coroutines iirc
21:29:12 <tusho> sofia was smalltalky
21:39:13 <CakeProphet> this has existed for severral years now at least.
21:39:26 <CakeProphet> I don't remember where the original spec is though... somewhere in one of my notebooks
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21:40:10 <CakeProphet> ...it might be awesome... but it's probably nothing as conceptually awesome as the negative lists thing.
21:40:52 <AnMaster> I asked ais about your age before he left:
21:40:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> e claimed to be 12, and I believe em
21:40:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> although e's awfully good at programming for a 12-year-old
21:40:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> e tends to be typically temperamental at times
21:41:27 <tusho> but not the believe to be 12 thing?
21:41:35 <tusho> i guess those videos are of my little brother, right :)
21:46:23 <tusho> AnMaster: and you seriously believe this
21:46:32 <AnMaster> anyway yes I do kind of believe you
21:46:57 <AnMaster> and for gender: well lets say I like seeing how irritated you get from it
21:47:49 <CakeProphet> this conversation is full of fail and is now about trains.
21:47:56 <tusho> CakeProphet: Your face is full of fail.
21:53:00 -!- Corun has joined.
22:07:58 <tusho> CakeProphet: For your face.
22:08:02 <tusho> Which is so full of fail it can't hold itself.
22:09:02 <CakeProphet> in this channel: kids trying to get attention and slightly older kids who.... don't care.
22:10:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
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22:13:43 <tusho> CakeProphet: actually, AnMaster has continually argued about my age since forever
22:20:44 <lament> heh trains are even cooler
22:21:30 <CakeProphet> Unicode characters are streams... and you can define what they contain in a declarative language at the top (memory streams, file streams, memory streams initialized with data from a URL, sockets, whatever)
22:22:15 <Deewiant> I see Unicode trains streaming across a declarative programscape
22:22:23 <Deewiant> hmm, maybe I should go to bed...
22:22:42 <CakeProphet> and then . blocking-reads from a stream next to it... , nonblocking write
22:23:03 <CakeProphet> and then there was some blocking writes that I don't... remember. ' and : maybe
22:26:29 <CakeProphet> when a thread encounters a + is basically creates three copies of itself that travel down all the possible paths.
22:26:53 <CakeProphet> same with | and - it makes only one two copies.
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23:02:06 <tusho> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/lumpbucket/zntzntznt.png <-- mandatory fun day edits = win
23:03:39 <tusho> http://reverend.healeys.net/pictures/mfdlisp.png LMAO
23:28:32 <oklopol> anyway CakeProphet: spec it!
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