00:00:08 <tusho> psygnisfive: i beg to differ
00:00:35 <tusho> psygnisfive: it started last month and has 16 members, most of which are active
00:00:41 <tusho> and it gets a healthy stream of visits each day
00:00:47 <tusho> and more members come in every few days
00:00:52 <tusho> and I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
00:01:00 <tusho> and no tentacles would be involved.
00:01:09 -!- nice_ka has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe.
00:01:45 <psygnisfive> ehird/nomads doesnt work as a un/pw combination!
00:02:05 <tusho> that would be tusho, anyway
00:02:08 <tusho> but nomads isn't my password :p
00:02:17 <tusho> damn, and I was just about to tell you my password
00:02:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: Secret, that's what.
00:02:45 <tusho> Well, the domain isn't secret.
00:02:51 <tusho> Access beyond the login page is.
00:05:50 <tusho> Well, access can't be "secret", more _the thing behind the login page_ is secret
00:05:55 <tusho> and can only be gained through access
00:06:59 <tusho> I wonder if anyone has 'password' as their password.
00:07:14 <tusho> That'd probably be ban-worthy. (Except not really. I'd just change it.)
00:07:20 <tusho> (And slap them if I ever meet them in person.)
00:07:44 <psygnisfive> besides hosting pictures of your pedobate self?
00:08:10 <tusho> Well, the only thing I can tell you is what you already know.
00:08:13 <tusho> Everything on the login page. :P
00:08:25 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/milkweasal/1
00:08:34 <tusho> if you don't laugh at each and every one of them you're mentally damaged
00:08:56 <tusho> p.s. yes I know it's spelt weasel
00:09:01 <tusho> weasals are the exact opposite of weasels.
00:09:24 <tusho> also, if you don't find some of them funny, say "glass plate" then look at it again
00:09:27 <tusho> you should burst into flames.
00:09:58 <tusho> psygnisfive: Then you must be mentally damaged! :p
00:10:13 <tusho> we should lock you up
00:10:20 <tusho> maybe you'll laugh at #3
00:10:24 <tusho> it is hilarious after all
00:11:40 <tusho> that's what rodger said (see #4)
00:11:44 <tusho> I bought a comic license
00:11:54 <tusho> it costs £5,000,000 and it lets you call one thing you own a comic
00:12:03 <tusho> plus it's pretty hilarious so there
00:12:54 <tusho> i see a slight pattern in this
00:13:24 <tusho> psygnisfive: open terminal, open -a Dock?
00:13:38 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes you can
00:13:42 <tusho> desktop -> harddrive
00:13:47 <tusho> -> applications -> utilities -> terminal
00:13:52 <psygnisfive> i cant get to the harddrive since its not on my desktop
00:13:59 <psygnisfive> but i do have a way to get to the terminal, i remembered
00:14:06 <tusho> psygnisfive: or click desktop, cmd-n
00:14:25 <tusho> psygnisfive: it doesn't need to be
00:14:28 <tusho> desktop focuses finder
00:14:31 <tusho> cmd-n in finder opens hd
00:14:57 <tusho> oh, and if you really want to know what TR is, then the login page should be helpful
00:15:58 <tusho> just look at the damn login page
00:16:57 <tusho> psygnisfive: are you blind or something
00:17:19 <psygnisfive> i am! its just a login form and some copyright stuff
00:17:31 <tusho> so examine both parts
00:17:49 <psygnisfive> "Lussumo Vanilla, Swell, and People Copyright © 2001-2006"
00:18:01 <tusho> there's a link, dude. :P
00:18:29 <tusho> it's the forum package TR uses, it's a private forum with an alglamation of people from various places over the web
00:18:43 <tusho> (though a custom rewrite is coming soon because the current software is fucking us around.)
00:18:54 <psygnisfive> ok so its a forum, thats not the question :P
00:19:01 <tusho> ok, what is the question then
00:19:30 <tusho> discussing/sharing ideas. creations. amusing things. random crap.
00:19:56 <tusho> all that was actually a total lie
00:19:59 <tusho> when you log into tentaclerapture
00:20:02 <tusho> you see ... nomads
00:20:04 <psygnisfive> roaming outside the well built up and mapped territory of cyberspace
00:20:12 <tusho> you see the very essence of nomads - themselves
00:20:32 * oerjan wonders if you can be a cybernomad without your body ever moving
00:20:47 <psygnisfive> oerjan: cyberspace is a realm of ideas, of mind, pure thought and meme
00:21:31 <tusho> porn is arguably a meme
00:22:13 <psygnisfive> oh so i have this rather large, 17 inch long gigantic dildo and last night, to my delight, i found a video on xtube of a guy taking the ENTIRE length
00:22:51 <tusho> we ... really needed to know that
00:23:01 <tusho> oerjan: i think now you give us a terrible pun
00:23:03 <tusho> to break the silence
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00:23:42 <oklopol> you have 16 active users on a page with your comics?
00:23:45 <psygnisfive> tusho, i want you to help me come up with ideas.
00:23:59 <tusho> oklopol: no I just dump the comics on the same domain
00:24:09 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/ is the real dealie
00:24:13 <tusho> well, the login page that you see isn't.
00:24:15 <oklopol> also you fuckers talked so fast logs went past the screen and i have to open logreader again
00:24:27 <psygnisfive> the entire website is about that log in page
00:24:36 <psygnisfive> the log in page is a sort of social nexus for discussion
00:24:38 <oerjan> tusho: the silence is already broken, so i cannot fix it. er, wait.
00:24:38 <pikhq> #esoteric: the kink channel?
00:24:45 <psygnisfive> people go to the login page and discuss things
00:24:55 <tusho> psygnisfive: with telepathy, yes
00:24:58 <tusho> it's powered by nomads
00:25:53 <psygnisfive> its a telepathic link, unfortunately. i cant give one to you unless you're a cybernomad.
00:25:54 <tusho> psygnisfive: to what, the video or TR
00:25:58 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/ <- TR
00:26:04 <tusho> i have no fucking idea, ask psy <- video
00:26:19 <psygnisfive> i dont even know what hes asking for a link to
00:26:32 <tusho> [00:22:15] <psygnisfive> oh so i have this rather large, 17 inch long gigantic dildo and last night, to my delight, i found a video on xtube of a guy taking the ENTIRE length
00:26:55 <oklopol> also tusho would make a cute girl, but then again so would many boys his age
00:27:04 <psygnisfive> http://video.xtube.com/watch.php?v_user_id=liltex&cv=0&idx=5&v=Joc0v-G419-&cl=fB3Bi-G419-&from=&ver=3&ccaa=1&qid=&qidx=&qnum=&video_type=0
00:27:12 <oklopol> he's more boy than girl still, imo
00:27:44 <dogface> psygnisfive: what do you mean by "taking"?
00:27:46 * tusho moves #esoteric -> #porn
00:27:57 * tusho moves #porn -> #gayporn
00:28:02 <psygnisfive> taking, as in, he inserts the whole 13+ insertable inches in his ass.
00:28:47 <tusho> dogface: were you imagining him, like, picking it up
00:28:54 <tusho> as opposed to only picking a few inches of it up
00:28:55 <pikhq> tusho: It's not gay, it's for those who like men. (you never know; there could be a girl into guys with dildos)
00:28:56 <psygnisfive> its pretty impressive, to have that whole thing inside you
00:29:08 <psygnisfive> i HAVE seen guys get fisted up to the shoulder
00:29:20 <tusho> pikhq: But the only people talking about the video are gay/bi guys. :P
00:29:22 <pikhq> That's got to do some damage.
00:29:27 <pikhq> tusho: Ah. Well, then.
00:29:38 <tusho> psygnisfive: Mmm. I love rearranging internal organs.
00:29:45 <pikhq> Actually, I'm straight, and going "... That's a fucking huge dildo."
00:30:06 <psygnisfive> lots of straight guys enjoy getting dildos.
00:30:07 <dogface> How easy is it to rearrange the internal organs?
00:30:10 <pikhq> So: impressed, yes. Turned on, not really.
00:30:20 <oklopol> awesome vid, but not really much sexier than someone swallowing a teapot
00:30:21 <psygnisfive> what gets you off sexually can be complicated with relation to notions like sexuality
00:30:26 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Said guys are probably not turned on by images of other guys getting dildos. :p
00:30:43 <tusho> pikhq: hahahaha i'd love to watch a series of porn reviews done in the style of regular movie criticism
00:30:55 <pikhq> That would be brilliant.
00:30:55 <tusho> that'd be hilarious
00:30:58 <psygnisfive> an interesting fetish some straight guys have is "forced homosexuality"
00:31:11 <psygnisfive> but they like it when a dominatrix forces them to have sex with a guy
00:31:24 <psygnisfive> because its that whole humiliation/degredation/submission thing
00:31:37 <tusho> People have probably gotten off to SWAP.AVI.
00:31:41 <dogface> Easy enough that the abdomen is not completely rigid, removing the appendix doesn't leave a hole in you, and the stomach is not filled with air when empty. And we can breathe.
00:31:46 <tusho> (The thought of that both highly amuses me and highly disturbs me.)
00:31:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/horrible-saga-swapavi.php
00:32:38 <dogface> Not easy enough that--oh, never mind.
00:32:44 <tusho> psygnisfive: A member of the something awful forums says he's found a brazillian service where you can requset porn videos to be made.
00:32:58 <tusho> They compile a final description of what they want, which is hilariously over-the-top because they don't believe the poster.
00:33:00 <pikhq> Oh my dear *lord*.
00:33:06 <tusho> Finally, he solicits donations and ... no return. He is banned.
00:33:13 <tusho> The link to SWAP.avi is posted.
00:33:42 <tusho> psygnisfive: It involves something awful memes at the start, too.
00:33:45 <tusho> That's pretty absurd.
00:34:00 <psygnisfive> someone should make an exhibit out of it, it'd be awesome
00:34:06 <oklopol> less talking, more linking
00:34:31 <tusho> http://i.somethingawful.com//sasbi/2006/12/elpintogrande/swap8.jpg <- Image You Should Not View Ever #8.
00:34:52 <psygnisfive> looks like a scene from 2 Girls 1 Cup, reprise
00:34:54 <dogface> Computers are not so flexible. Then again, they must be rigid so that their lungs don't collapse, causing death by hyperthermia.
00:35:00 <tusho> psygnisfive: googling found me this torrent
00:35:04 <tusho> http://btjunkie.org/torrent/SWAP-AVI-Metis-scat-swapping-film-from-MFX-Video/43240c2c564970d6f180381ba38634f872fcb2e6480c
00:35:10 -!- moozilla has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.37 - www.nbs-irc.net -").
00:35:13 <oklopol> that's actually from a vid from the 2girls1cup page
00:35:17 <psygnisfive> the link has a time-ordered scene breakdown
00:35:30 <tusho> oklopol: no it's not
00:35:34 <oklopol> seen the original too, it's like an hour long film
00:35:47 <oklopol> but it's linked on the page
00:36:05 <oklopol> there were 3 short vids at some point
00:36:31 <tusho> http://www.swapavi.com/swap.avi
00:36:33 <tusho> non-torrent version
00:36:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Konversation terminated!").
00:36:41 <tusho> can't be the full thing
00:36:45 <pikhq> I refuse to watch it.
00:36:50 <psygnisfive> so im guessing the porn-on-request place is real
00:37:08 <tusho> pikhq: not the full thing anyway, I imagine
00:37:10 <dogface> I guess if we had no bones, we wouldn't be as able to breathe, but computers tend to use more energy than we do, meaning they have to eliminate more heat, plus their circulatory systems don't reach the surface.
00:37:13 <tusho> the full thing is like 100mb
00:37:15 <tusho> (or was it 500, whatever)
00:37:20 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Disturbing, but cool.
00:37:25 <pikhq> dogface: Porn involving shit.
00:37:32 <tusho> I was about to reply
00:37:36 <tusho> but pikhq said it best
00:37:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Just about had enough").
00:38:01 <oklopol> tusho: i only got like the first 5 seconds.
00:38:26 -!- moozilla has joined.
00:38:27 * tusho imagines swap.avi being reviewed in serious, somber film-critic style
00:39:21 <dogface> Make porn based on anagrams of "dagflox".
00:39:28 <oklopol> i've seen the opening, but i think mfx has used it on many films
00:39:34 <oklopol> so hard to say what that is
00:39:51 <oklopol> (the beginning of linked swap.avi)
00:40:06 <psygnisfive> we should make a review podcast like that.
00:40:13 <tusho> psygnisfive: no, it'd have to be a video review
00:40:15 <tusho> for the formal attire
00:40:28 <tusho> also, I do not sound like a film critic
00:40:31 <tusho> and I look like a film critic even less
00:40:35 <psygnisfive> it cant be a podcast where you see the video itself
00:40:37 <oklopol> shouldn't be hard to turn into porn
00:40:45 <psygnisfive> it has to be something where you cant tell what we're reviewing
00:40:52 <dogface> oklopol: you can't make porn without dog flax.
00:41:01 <psygnisfive> you listen for 15 minutes and it could be a review of _anything_
00:41:01 <tusho> psygnisfive: aww, it'd prefer it to be really damn obvious
00:41:08 <tusho> like, it starts with the start of the porn
00:41:10 <psygnisfive> but then it gets progressively more.. fucked up sounding
00:41:17 <tusho> then moves out so that you can see the screen and the reviewer
00:41:25 <tusho> and he gives a somber, serious, in-depth, critical analysis of it
00:41:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | if you consider _really_ severe dyslexia retarded... (so bad that you cannot even say if your spell checker's suggestions are correct).
00:41:37 <oklopol> there was that one essay on 2girls1cup
00:41:40 <tusho> and then it cuts to after the film
00:41:46 <tusho> and gives his final thoughts
00:41:47 <oklopol> teacher's comments were priceless
00:41:49 <tusho> and then it's over
00:41:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | they're all kept with the distribution to avoid line number clashes.
00:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | parse_ski. unless that has nothing to do with SKI calculus.
00:42:01 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 22..
00:42:38 <oklopol> i recognize two of those 4
00:45:34 <tusho> "And we see here the stylistic device very much associated with the minimalistic work of Johnson - notice the bare, sparse feel yet fluidity of the movement and its inherent interlinking with the intensely minimalistic - some would even claim missing - musical score." - a friend after hearing of this "somber, serious, film critic-style review of porn" idea
00:46:37 <oklopol> yeah johnson has a tiny cock
00:46:46 <oklopol> i think i'll work on fugue now
00:53:04 <tusho> is that 'be right back because of faggots'
00:55:28 -!- tusho has quit ("Leaving...").
01:18:58 <fizzie> That seems curiously urgent.
01:19:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:21:26 <oklopol> 'be right back because of faggots' can mean either "i leave, but i'll return later cuz i like ya faggots", or "i leave for a while, since there are hot faggies here"
01:22:18 <oklopol> really the latter only because be right back is only the expanding of brb, otherwise just the latter
01:25:20 <fizzie> Maybe s/latter/former/g to replace all instances.
01:26:01 <fizzie> And I guess more often "brb foo" is "will be right back; going away because of foo".
01:27:34 <psygnisfive> no i think "brb, foo" has that interpretation more so
01:27:57 <fizzie> Dunno, I think I've seen stuff like "brb food".
01:28:27 <fizzie> Unless you're thinking of other people on channel as food, I'm not ruling that out.
01:28:50 <oklopol> my point was exactly that once you expand it, you can interpret it as either
01:28:53 <psygnisfive> however now we're talking about the selectional requirements of "brb"
01:29:20 <oklopol> i've already seen one of your crazy syntax trees!
01:29:31 <psygnisfive> did i show you the Generative Semantics one?
01:29:42 <fizzie> I somehow read that as "and i need oklopol porn". I think it's because I just reviewed what you were talking about while I slept for a bit there.
01:30:19 <oklopol> psygnisfive: you were arguing about english grammar
01:30:26 <oklopol> don't remember the exact context
01:30:37 <oklopol> you addressed me in pm later about some comment of mine
01:30:42 <psygnisfive> can i show you something from some research done in the late 60s early 70s?
01:31:00 <oklopol> (i showed an error in your thinking, and you showed me how i sucked ass like there's no tomorrow)
01:31:16 <oklopol> (well no really i don't remember.)
01:31:28 <psygnisfive> back then, there were some students of chomsky's that broke away from mainstream syntax of the time to form their own school of thought on syntax
01:32:01 <psygnisfive> namely, they wanted to account for all cases of synonymy by supposing certain things
01:32:23 <psygnisfive> end up having amazingly complex structures
01:32:37 <psygnisfive> infact, that sentence, by their theories, has 8, EIGHT, subsentences.
01:33:02 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/lolgs.png
01:33:24 <psygnisfive> but the structure would be the same none the less.
01:33:54 <fizzie> "it that it that it that Floyd DO it that Floyd CAUSE it that it that it that the glass broken BE INCHOATIVE HAPPEN PAST TO YOU". Hehe.
01:33:54 <psygnisfive> suffice it to say, generative semantics didnt last long and wasn't ever taken seriously
01:34:20 <fizzie> Oh, I missed the "I DECLARE" part at the beginning somehow.
01:35:52 <psygnisfive> oklopol, we'll go over the syntax stuff when i get back
01:36:16 <psygnisfive> well ill talk to you tomorrow baout it then
01:37:48 <fizzie> For tusho's log-reading purposes: I think the gnome-vfs access might well be from Epiphany, that gnome web browser. I think for consistency it uses the gnome-vfs functions for all URLs.
01:38:07 <oklopol> perhaps i should leave him a message too
01:38:17 <oklopol> tusho: hi i think i'll drink some water now
01:40:05 -!- fizzie has quit ("switching hostname back").
01:40:12 -!- fizzie has joined.
01:40:39 <fizzie> (fungot doesn't like my commands if they do not come with this particular nick!user@host prefix.)
01:42:48 <oklopol> does it die given an infloop?
01:43:00 <fizzie> It shouln't, if you mean the ^bf command.
01:43:30 <fizzie> It prints that and stops after executing 10k bf instructions.
01:43:57 <oklopol> well it printed that, and i asked kingofkarlsruhe if he printed that, or it was a timeout
01:44:20 <oklopol> lier! i prolly just misunderstood, but anyway
01:44:46 <fizzie> Well, it could've been him.
01:45:30 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++>+++>++++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>-.<++...>>>+.++++++.-.<<.>+.---------.<.>>.<+++.++++.--------.<.<------.>>>-.<----.>++++++.------.<<.>------------------------.<<+.>+.
01:45:30 <fungot> ...out of time (says I)!
01:45:58 <oklopol> see? it adds some random shit in the end
01:47:47 <fizzie> Must go to do the sleeping thing, there's a semi-early train trip tomorrow. (Or at least prepare-to-go-to-sleep thing, then I'll come back to do a minor alteration to fungot.)
01:51:19 -!- Figs has joined.
01:51:43 <fungot> ............................. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
01:52:22 <Figs> ^bf >++++++++++[<++++>-]<.
01:52:35 <Figs> ^bf >++++++++++[<++++>-]<.+.+.
01:53:17 <Figs> did you see my evil invention yesterday?
01:53:19 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/t2kLGX37.html
01:53:24 <pikhq> I get the feeling *someone* has created an Egobot replacement. :D
01:53:32 <Figs> Well, it's the *start* of an evil invention, at least...
01:53:40 <Figs> not sure what to do with it next
01:54:58 <fizzie> pikhq; If you hadn't noticed, fungot is written in Funge-98 with the SOCK fingerprint, so it's implementation-wise suitable for this channel too.
01:55:26 <pikhq> That's *brilliant*.
01:55:47 <pikhq> I mean, really: I love you.
01:56:06 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
01:56:45 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt has them sources, although it lacks the separate "loader" part, and is not the completely latest version.
02:03:05 -!- fungot has quit ("relocated ^reload so that it handles changes in the IRC code").
02:03:18 -!- fungot has joined.
02:04:20 <fizzie> Now to check if I broke it.
02:04:39 <fizzie> Heh, I did, in fact, break it.
02:04:52 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:05:14 <fizzie> That was a bit less impressive than I was hoping for. Next time I'll test first and deploy later.
02:06:25 <fizzie> Right, there's a 0 missing.
02:06:46 <oklopol> are you just summing 0..n until it's more than 100?
02:07:05 <Figs> z[n] is a variable length array
02:07:33 <Figs> You should get 0, 1 1, 2 2 2, 3 3 3 3, 4 4 4 4 4, ...
02:07:38 <oklopol> yeah, and you fill it, including the element after the last element, with n
02:08:12 <Figs> I wrote it at like 1 am or whatever :P
02:08:35 <Figs> -Wall -pedantic didn't catch it, and I didn't notice ;P
02:09:19 <oklopol> it was a blinking red zone in my eyes
02:09:58 <oklopol> but right for some reason i read z[k]=n-1; as z[k]=n..;
02:10:13 <oklopol> that still wouldn't work like i described
02:11:58 <Figs> I wrote it at like 1 am, so *shrug*; the big idea was to use a label called While that takes a parameter that's ignored, a disguised free {} block within main, and a resized variable length array
02:12:06 -!- fungot has joined.
02:13:05 <fizzie> I think that just generated no output. And ^reload is not accepted from anyone else than me. Makes sense, since only I can change the code.
02:13:39 <fizzie> The +[<] loop stops after one iteration, since the next cell is zero.
02:13:50 <Figs> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
02:14:30 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++++++++++[.]
02:14:31 <fungot> nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ...
02:14:42 <fizzie> There's an output length limit of 15*15 characters.
02:15:06 <oklopol> fizzie: how come you program befunge better than most people code mainstream languages?
02:15:28 <Figs> ^bf >++++++++++++++++++++[<++++++++++++++++++++>-].
02:15:35 <pikhq> Because most people code mainstream languages suckily.
02:15:36 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]+++++++++++++>++++++++++[.<.---.+++>]
02:15:37 <fungot> n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n.. ...
02:16:13 <oklopol> fizzie: what does 15*15 mean?
02:16:21 <fizzie> Oh, and characters [0,30] or so are filtered to ., otherwise tusho would just use it to output "\r\nJOIN #ubuntu\r\nPRIVMSG #ubuntu :arrr thar any gays here?" again.
02:16:24 <oklopol> if you convert 13 and 10 to .
02:17:04 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, so you actually *recall* our insanity. :D
02:17:20 <oklopol> even i recall that, it was like yesterday
02:17:59 <Figs> ^bf ----------.
02:18:04 <fizzie> I didn't want to bother with it interpreting newlines and writing the "PRIVMSG #chan :" prefix multiple times. Although I guess I could have.
02:18:14 <pikhq> oklopol: I wasn't on then.
02:18:24 <pikhq> Also, we've done the same to Egobot in the distant past.
02:18:35 <fizzie> Cells are one byte wide and wrap-around; the array is also only 1000 cells wide.
02:18:37 <pikhq> I think it was ehird/tusho that started it, actually.
02:18:53 <oklopol> pikhq: it's been done to every bot, of course :)
02:19:03 <oklopol> but that gay ubuntu thing was a few days ago
02:19:07 <pikhq> oklopol: Every bot with customisable output, of course.
02:19:43 <Figs> ^bf +[+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>]
02:19:43 <oklopol> fizzie: so... what does "15*15" mean? :D
02:19:45 <fungot> fungot had a free-for-all ^raw for an hour or so, but... now it's nick!user@host-limited to me.
02:20:14 <Figs> I'm not trying to do anything useful :P
02:20:29 <oklopol> well that just incs a cell twice and ends
02:20:40 <oklopol> it definitely looks like you tried to make an infloop :D
02:20:48 <oklopol> but guess you fooled me :P
02:20:56 <oklopol> okay, i'll try sleeping again.asfpok ->
02:21:00 <fizzie> oklopol; 225, I think. "ff*" was the largest number I could get with three characters, although I guess I could have used a funge-space cell and something "99g"-like.
02:21:50 <Figs> ^bf I'm a little teapot, short and stout!
02:21:56 <fizzie> It's there around row 99: ff*`#^_
02:22:15 <fizzie> ^bf +[,.]!it does input like this
02:22:15 <fungot> it does input like this.
02:22:49 <Figs> ^bf +[,.]!\r\n:D
02:24:37 <Figs> ^bf >[,>]<[.<]!olleH
02:24:54 <Figs> maybe I do suck at BF today :P
02:25:03 <Figs> ^bf >+[,>]<[.<]!olleH
02:26:15 <fungot> ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
02:28:16 <fizzie> (The dot is that '1' cell there, didn't bother to fix it.)
02:29:40 <Figs> I really am out of it today.
02:29:59 <Figs> haha, wtf was I thinking ,> :|
02:40:21 <fizzie> (Did not change much, just made ^bf replies work right if done in privmsg to the bot. It used to reply to the privmsg target, since it worked on channels. Now if the target doesn't begin with #, it instead uses the 'nick' from the nick!user@host prefix.)
02:43:01 <fizzie> That was really simple, just a
02:43:01 <fizzie> >06g'#-!#v_ 04g!#^_ 1>:4g:!#v_'!-#v_v
02:43:04 <fizzie> v < P60 G41 $$<0 p4\ 0<
02:43:20 <fizzie> (Although for some reason the copy-paste had lots of spaces there.)
02:43:29 <fizzie> Easier to write than copy-paste correctly.
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02:50:05 <Figs> hey oklopol, did you ever get around to playing my song...?
02:52:11 <fizzie> Hah, I broke ^reload with that change, since it 0s the ! in the prefix. The stupefity.
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03:02:56 <fizzie> 05am is a good time to go to sleep. ->
03:07:44 <dogface> I wonder how long it took me to realize that sharks are fish.
03:08:14 <Figs> I'm gonna head off
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03:45:19 <psygnisfive> http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=631847#631847
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08:43:40 <asiekierka> I'm gonna remove all my old, already spammed and linked a lot forums, maybe that'll make 500's a little rarer.
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09:36:53 <oklofok> and computers whether things will al end as they should
09:37:29 <oklofok> al? names should be capitalized!
09:38:02 <oklofok> Well, the truth is that P cannot possibly be,
09:38:02 <oklofok> because if you wrote it and gave it to me,
09:38:02 <oklofok> I could use it to set up a logical bind
09:38:02 <oklofok> that would shatter your reason and scramble your mind.
09:43:21 <oklofok> as a summary, computers process information faster than humans... and that's all, because they don't think...
10:03:21 <oklofok> i don't really get that wanking around humans being fundamentally better than computers @ solving impossible problems, religious people should not comment on mathematical issues
10:24:35 <oklofok> and no, i'm not madder than usually
10:31:25 <AnMaster> <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/lulz/photo2.jpg
10:31:25 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> you still look like a girl but ok.
10:32:41 <AnMaster> your face could be either gender
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11:02:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: FSPACEBOUNDS: is the max relative to the min, like in y?
11:03:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: not said in the PDF...
11:04:52 <Deewiant> IMHO it makes more sense for it to be absolute
11:05:24 <Deewiant> I guess the reason it's relative in funge is that it's tricky to do the subtractions with only the stack, if you need relative (for i for instance)
11:05:44 <Deewiant> but here we're not assuming that the frontend is written in funge...
11:07:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'll make it absolute
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11:15:43 <asiekierka> I have an unfinished implementation of bfIRC
11:28:04 <asiekierka> BFirc is my little modification of BF to add irc functionalities
11:28:14 <asiekierka> my friend, darktemplar, implemented it
11:28:22 <oklofok> okay, and how are you going to add them?
11:28:38 <asiekierka> basically, , is changed and output data is saved to a buffer, and a new command is there
11:29:24 <oklofok> i would skip the buffer; can you take input from keyboard anymore?
11:29:50 <asiekierka> I basically made it to see if i can beat fungot and make an IRCbot in BF.
11:30:00 <oklofok> well you do know you don't actually have to change the language at all, you can just pipe its IO to irc?
11:30:33 <oklofok> right, you don't know anything about irc
11:30:53 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
11:31:31 <oklopol> the irc spec is quite long, and you will never be able to read it; i suggest googling a "irc bot python", and reading
11:32:04 <asiekierka> http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py
11:32:37 <asiekierka> and the second is the username to which to output
11:32:50 <asiekierka> he doesn't know how to do a channel-wide yet. :P
11:33:08 <oklopol> ah okay, that uses some external module
11:33:14 <oklopol> sorry, it probably will help you
11:33:36 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
11:33:46 <asiekierka> it outputs/interfaces with a single user
11:34:12 <oklopol> well i can't help with irclib, but for raw irc connections that's a simple substitution of the channel name for the recipient
11:34:31 <oklopol> to send a message to esoteric, you just write PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my fun message.
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11:36:12 <oklopol> congrats i got helloworlded by your botter
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11:52:44 <asiekierka> I found a newbie's IRC connection library
11:54:48 <asiekierka> Vortex needs ICS. Vortex is an IRC connection library that's way too easy to use for it to be real.
11:55:59 <asiekierka> 2 MB. I must wait for 10 mins for it to d/l
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11:57:47 <dark_templar> grab it at http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py
11:58:25 <dark_templar> But I still don't know how you wanna faciliate input
11:58:45 <asiekierka> , will take the latest message from the channel
11:59:12 <dark_templar> so I should append all messages put on the chat to the input buffer?
11:59:52 <asiekierka> if i say "road", you overwrite poop with road
12:00:02 <asiekierka> if i say "lowl", you overwrite road with lowl
12:00:25 <dark_templar> unless you want me to swap the half-processed input buffer with new one
12:00:34 <dark_templar> it grabs a character from input stream when requested
12:00:58 <dark_templar> Though guys watch out; quite a lot of Polish comments there
12:01:01 <asiekierka> I thought it'll copy the whole message from the input stream
12:01:14 <asiekierka> and i take the latest input msg (let's say poop
12:04:25 <dark_templar> besides, what does (null) evaluate to? Sounds quite Lisp-ish.
12:05:44 <asiekierka> Even if this means not staying in the 8-command limit
12:05:59 <dark_templar> you could employ the line-break #10 for that instead of #0
12:06:49 <asiekierka> Why? It'll fix the programs using #13#10
12:07:01 <asiekierka> and will still allow programs using #10 to work
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12:08:42 <dark_templar> Oh. Found the mistake. It grabs both 10 and 13 and newline
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12:09:58 <asiekierka> Actually, this method should now make all the BF programs compatible with BFirc.
12:10:10 <dark_templar> So 'fuck anything that's <32 and 10 as newline' ?
12:10:29 <dark_templar> I could display the unprintables as /x<numer> if you wish
12:10:52 <asiekierka> Nope. You could make it a parameter in source code if you want so much though.
12:11:14 <asiekierka> Ignore everything that's <32 (IRC disallows it) except 10, which is a newline, as in, output the buffer on IRC and go ahead with execution.
12:11:31 <asiekierka> and clean the buffer before continuing execution
12:13:02 <asiekierka> Now i'm going to force-feed a BF interpreter to it. xD.
12:13:29 <dark_templar> just write a suitable BF program to use a chatbot and invent some way input'd work
12:13:33 <asiekierka> Also, one question. does "," wait for a character if it doesn't get one?
12:14:35 <asiekierka> ',' should just output the latest char from the input buffer.
12:14:37 <dark_templar> you wanna some @ commands that checks the buffer?
12:15:23 <asiekierka> I think there's one more thing you should add, in source code.
12:15:38 <asiekierka> It should only copy msg's starting with a specific character
12:15:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: index for SSET and SGET, is 0 the top or the bottom?
12:16:49 <asiekierka> That should also be a source-toggleable option.
12:17:01 <asiekierka> Why? Some people will make a bf chatterbot (!@#$%^!@#$%^) possibly
12:17:56 <asiekierka> So we should have 2 source-toggleable options.
12:18:14 <asiekierka> 1) Between outputting characters <32 as /x(number) and blocking them (except newline)
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12:18:37 <asiekierka> and 2) between accepting commands only starting with a specific char and erasing the char, and accepting everything.
12:18:42 <dark_templar> It pretty had to do some sort of 'cat' with input.
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12:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the point of cross references if no one follows them :P
12:21:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, because just about every instruction says that
12:21:15 -!- makebot has joined.
12:21:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: since it's a PDF without links, browsing back and forth every time is a pain
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12:21:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it have links, at least it does here
12:21:59 <AnMaster> ok a mistake that they are black
12:21:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ah, UI fail then, they look no different from the rest of the text :-P
12:22:34 <dark_templar> write me some program that takes 10 characters, outputs them with a #10
12:22:54 <asiekierka> I will make a program that takes 1 character and outputs it with a #10
12:23:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so colour them or something :-P
12:23:54 <dark_templar> http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py grab it with working output
12:24:24 <asiekierka> So i can make it detect a specific char?
12:24:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: better, thanks, but could have a bit more contrast, dark blue vs. black isn't that great
12:25:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is rather bright blue on my screen
12:25:15 <AnMaster> maybe you should color calibrate your monitor?
12:25:38 <dark_templar> grab it again, I added the <32 output ignore thing
12:26:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: when zoomed in 200% it's not obvious at a glance, at least to me
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12:28:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: maybe I'm just blind :-P raising blue from 122 to 192 makes it clearer to me
12:29:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh? I didn't upload the source file yet so how?
12:29:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: image editing programs exist :-P
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12:30:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I got a rather good monitor, maybe that is the cause
12:30:45 <AnMaster> if you want I can try it on a even better monitor
12:30:45 <dark_templar> I made the process not terminate itself on purpose, cuz sometimes it failed to sent messages
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12:31:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Samsung SyncMaster 940B is the other monitor
12:31:20 <asiekierka> Anyone seeing me try to run Lost Kingdom on this, #esoteric-blah
12:31:30 * AnMaster turns it on and goes to fiddle with nvidia-settings
12:31:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can show you a screenshot
12:32:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that would look correct on mine
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12:32:40 <dark_templar> Oh, the online bank pwned itself, I can't reset the limits on my card...
12:33:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: who said that anything looks incorrect, I'm just saying that it could use more contrast :-P
12:33:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: iki.fi/deewiant/asdf.png
12:33:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, on my screen that has a lot of contrast :/
12:33:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "5.1 on page 10" could be clearer to me
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12:34:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: on the more zoomed out ones in the lower window it's clear enough but zoomed in that far I didn't immediately notice that those aren't black
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12:37:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hehe, actually I can even get an optical illusion out of this: staring at the 5 long enough it looks completely black after a few seconds :-)
12:37:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I notice it both zoomed and non-zoomed on my monitors
12:37:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and nop that doesn't work for me
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12:37:01 <dark_templar> I could append a linefeed on each of the stuff appearing in chats!
12:37:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what color temperature do you have
12:37:01 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p131415515.txt i call it stackoverbotter because python doesn't have tail recursion :P
12:37:01 <oklopol> let's add my bf interpreter there
12:37:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well one screen only says "warm/normal/cool", set to normal, that is the least good monitor
12:37:42 <AnMaster> trying to find it in the menu system of the other monitor now
12:37:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: doesn't sound like a good monitor if it can't even tell you what temperature you have ;-)
12:38:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I said the least good
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12:38:13 <AnMaster> which is consumer crap but actually works well
12:38:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the other one got a crappy menu system
12:38:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so it isn't that good either ;-)
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12:39:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from this menu system it is good
12:39:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so, in total, it isn't good. ;-)
12:41:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but there will probably be some API to specify output as a string or something..
12:42:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and well the cheaper monitor looks the same
12:42:18 <Deewiant> but yeah, that doesn't make much of a difference
12:42:28 <AnMaster> consumer crap but looks as good
12:42:34 <AnMaster> so I guess it is the same then too
12:42:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so it's more likely the problem is in my background lighting, eyes, or brain. :-)
12:43:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, background lighting here is outside daylight as reflected from a typical red Swedish house
12:43:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so have you tried increasing the blue to 192 and seeing if that makes ig ugly for you
12:43:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway since it is afternoon, no direct sun
12:44:57 <AnMaster> \definecolor{theblue} {rgb}{0.02,0.04,0.48}
12:45:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 192 in the range 0-255
12:45:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't be arsed to convert
12:45:53 <Deewiant> do you have brightness set to 300% or something? ;-P
12:46:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 100% on the cheaper monitor
12:46:36 <AnMaster> they match pretty closely then
12:46:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how about underlining or bolding or italicizing links or something
12:46:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no idea how to do that
12:47:10 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/MUTMR695.html
12:47:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: \underline, \textbf, \textit
12:47:30 <AnMaster> it is the hyperref package that does it
12:48:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: set colorlinks to false? or was that what it was before?
12:48:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would make them black
12:49:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: was that what it was before.
12:49:03 <AnMaster> before it was set as black by mistake
12:49:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just set it to false
12:49:12 <AnMaster> as in not "theblue" but =black
12:49:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that should put a frame around them
12:49:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, underlines are uggly
12:49:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which is also good because they are not printed then
12:49:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the frame is even worse IMO
12:49:42 <AnMaster> also who the heck would print this!?
12:49:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: .......................
12:49:57 <Deewiant> why the hell is it a PDF if it's only for on-screen viewing
12:50:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I didn't think anyone would be crazy enough to implement it, yet alone print it :P
12:50:38 <Deewiant> if you don't care about printing and stuff like that then make it into HTML
12:50:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can try to make it a different blue then
12:50:52 <Deewiant> if you do care, set colorlinks=false and use the frames :-P
12:51:00 <Deewiant> there are no other options here
12:51:09 <Deewiant> if it's a PDF it should be printer-friendly
12:51:12 <Deewiant> because that's the whole point
12:51:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I will try to use the same blue as wikipedia use in it's links
12:52:24 <asiekierka> http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py - yay, BFirc is finally done and fixed.
12:52:34 <Deewiant> I disagree in that since this is a PDF you shouldn't be colouring stuff that only matters when viewed in a PDF viewer
12:53:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those frames disrupt the flow of the text, make it hard to read
12:53:36 <AnMaster> I might as well drop the clickability
12:53:42 <AnMaster> would at least make you stop complain
12:54:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why do you want to use a PDF?
12:54:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fine, now you want me to upload it as *.dvi I assume?
12:55:08 <oklopol> god this is hard, i'm basically copypasting code, and it's simply impossible to the the parens right
12:55:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, html is a language I hate to write in
12:55:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so don't write HTML, use markdown or restructuredText or whatever
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12:56:45 <AnMaster> typographically, the web pages rendered by a browser is a horror
12:56:46 <Deewiant> firstly, how is it worse than LaTeX which is just as bad as HTML in that you can't see the content for the markup
12:56:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did I ever say that?
12:57:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, that's what I said
12:57:16 <Deewiant> LaTeX is as bad as HTML in that respect
12:57:21 <AnMaster> I didn't say that was a problem with html
12:57:28 <AnMaster> so I fail to see the relevance of it
12:57:34 <Deewiant> so what is your problem with HTML
12:58:04 <dark_templar> 1) save webpages as Pascal programs 2) execute them at runtime 3) let them write the webpage with Graph module
12:58:49 <Deewiant> and as far as HTML typography, if you hate it then view it in PDF yourself
12:59:07 <Deewiant> others don't care, I'd rather have a plaintext file than a PDF in this case since there's zero advantage to having it be a PDF
12:59:15 <asiekierka> Evil Idea of the day: A legal TV signal broadcast station :)
12:59:32 <Deewiant> just write it in markdown/whatever, and generate HTML and PDF from that
13:00:00 <asiekierka> How can i do a legal TV signal broadcasting station?
13:00:07 <Deewiant> you get your pretty ligatures and others get something that's easy to work with
13:01:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/why-not-pdf.html
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13:06:27 <oklopol> &%#bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++.!!!lol
13:06:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that paper is outdated, "xpdf 0.91 crashes;". well last version of xpdf seems to be 3.02, 0.91 was many years ago
13:06:53 <AnMaster> I don't think anyone use it today
13:06:59 <AnMaster> so you shall have your postscript variant
13:07:12 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p134611352.txt
13:07:22 <oklopol> absolutely no checking for malicious thingies
13:08:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that wasn't the point, the arguments are still valid
13:09:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: mostly the one on-screen reading
13:09:10 <oklopol> that irc bot is exactly why i hate purely functional programming
13:09:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: i.e. the point is the content, not the formatting
13:10:21 <oklopol> hmm what next, i've kinda exceeded my uselessness limit already
13:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, show me a browser that can properly do formatting then?
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13:10:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with correct optically right margins, ie, microtypography
13:11:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Textformatting.svg
13:11:54 <AnMaster> decide which is easiest to read
13:12:51 <AnMaster> I find the left one easier to read
13:13:16 <Deewiant> I was almost going to say the right one is easier but decided they're about the same
13:13:17 <AnMaster> I find bad typography really really disturbing when reading
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13:13:54 <Deewiant> I just read the text and ignore what it looks like :-P
13:13:59 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:14:07 <Deewiant> (of course I'm exaggerating but you get my point)
13:14:51 -!- dark_templar has joined.
13:15:00 <Deewiant> I do notice stuff like ligatures, but I don't think they affect readability
13:15:09 <Deewiant> sure, the text on the left looks a lot nicer
13:15:20 <Deewiant> but I think it's just as readable as the one on the right
13:15:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I disagree there
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13:16:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: do you want me to take over the protocol spec? I can produce HTML for myself and a nice PDF for you :-P
13:17:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I intend to try to find a working color
13:17:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I was serious though, I'd rather even write it myself since I'm actually implementing it now
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13:21:02 <oklopol> i should make a compiler from python to purely functional python
13:24:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but do you feel like you still want to work on it? I can take it off your back
13:24:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you intend to do with it?
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13:25:20 <Deewiant> the biggest changes would probably be the stuff I talked about in the e-mail I sent you a while back
13:25:46 <Deewiant> mostly simplifying it: make pre-run and stopped the same state, join breakpoints and events
13:25:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, email? my email haven't been working the last week
13:26:00 <Deewiant> maybe add some stuff (like the missing stack stack stuff)
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13:26:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it was the one where you complained that I used "--"
13:27:21 <AnMaster> well I can send you the lyx file
13:27:24 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/ - when i watch that thing with an orange portal, my mind alternates between it being outside and inside at once
13:28:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: sure, but I can always even write it from scratch myself, the main point here is that I'd rather not have us both writing the same thing independently :-)
13:29:04 <oklopol> let's all write it independently and kick the ones that are slow
13:29:45 <oklopol> that's the one thing i can do
13:30:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, yeah draft 2 is already written by me, like draft 1
13:30:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I feel that the official name should be the long: Funge protocol for interpreter tracing and debugging
13:30:32 <Deewiant> wasn't draft 2 just a few spelling corrections
13:30:34 <AnMaster> maybe you could make it even longer
13:30:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah it was a bit more iirc
13:30:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why not just "Foo: the Funge protocol for..."
13:30:57 <Deewiant> so there's a short official name "Foo"
13:31:14 <Deewiant> and you can just say "this interpreter is Foo compatible" or whatever
13:32:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, .tar.lzma or tar.bz2?
13:32:19 <AnMaster> which format to you prefer for the files
13:33:29 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/funge-frontend-protocol.tar.lzma
13:33:46 <AnMaster> if not just ask and I'll redo as .bz2
13:35:45 <Deewiant> why not just use 7-zip, it uses the same algorithm and you don't need to have a tar in between :-P
13:36:46 <AnMaster> would have to learn a new program
13:37:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same interface as bzip2 and gzip
13:38:18 <Deewiant> the windows one has a very unique interface :-P
13:38:26 <oklopol> it's not about time of finishing, but about the time taken to write it
13:38:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't use windows
13:38:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why not tar -cjf in the first place
13:38:38 <oklopol> anyawy, i didn't even know what you were talking about, assumed a program
13:38:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would produce bzip2
13:38:41 <asiekierka> I'm going to make another IRCmod of a language, possibly
13:38:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fine if that is what you wan
13:39:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes exactly, so my point is why prefer typing a separate command to just adding a char :-)
13:39:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but this way I saved 381 bytes ;)!
13:39:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but you used up 140KB storing the uncompressed version before you put it through lzma
13:39:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can reclaim that after
13:40:04 <Deewiant> yes, after, but in the meanwhile your hard drive is now that much closer to failure ;-)
13:40:21 <Deewiant> and I find it a good habit anyway since if you're on a drive with low disk space that can matter
13:40:30 <AnMaster> tar -cf - mydir | lzma --best -c - > mycompressed-file
13:41:03 <Deewiant> and now you have to look up flags again since you only know it's "something like it" ;-)
13:41:20 <Deewiant> and yeah, but like said, I find it a good habit since you can get that low
13:41:28 <Deewiant> or if you're on a network drive or whatever
13:42:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heck I bet I could even pipe it into ssh to make the compressed archive only show up on the server
13:42:42 <AnMaster> but I'm almost sure it is possible
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14:08:52 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: there's a bug in your X in 3DSP
14:09:08 <Deewiant> or at least in your test for it
14:10:15 <Deewiant> I don't know, but the answer the test wants is wrong
14:10:33 <MikeRiley> and what do you believe the answer should be???
14:10:33 <Deewiant> neither matrix*vector or vector*matrix gives the result the test expects
14:10:57 <Deewiant> one moment, I will check using Mathematica to make sure it's right ;-)
14:12:27 <oklopol> does all mycology test fingerprints?
14:13:16 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: using premultiplication which I guess is what you want (i.e. matrix*vector) it should be 5.50897 1.98446 7.98205
14:13:31 <Deewiant> the other way around it is 1.11603 7.66506 10.326
14:13:51 <ais523> oklopol: it doesn't test some fingerprints, for instance I don't think anyone but me dared write a test program for IFFI
14:14:06 <ais523> Intercal-like Foreign Function Interface
14:14:16 <ais523> which I spent a month or so writing, to combine C-INTERCAL and cfunge
14:14:39 <MikeRiley> deewiant: your results appear to be missing the translation operation...
14:14:42 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: oh, and what the hell is MVRS, it looks scary and TRDS-like in its feralness :-P
14:14:45 <ais523> in theory it could work without an INTERCAL implementation, for instance you could connect two IFFI-enabled Funge interps with it in theory
14:14:57 <ais523> but in practice the only implementation anyone did was C-INTERCAL <-> cfunge
14:15:09 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: I'm just using the "transform matrix on concatenating with Z" you give at the end of the file
14:15:17 <MikeRiley> will explain MVRS in a moment,,,want to make sure the 3DSP is right..
14:15:19 <Deewiant> and multiplying it with (1 2 3 1)
14:15:36 <MikeRiley> understood deewiant,,,,but the calculation i am using may not be exactly the same....
14:15:53 <MikeRiley> checking it right now with calculcations i got from a book an doing 3d graphics...
14:15:54 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: CCBI gives what Mathematica gives
14:16:55 <MikeRiley> which is (1 2 3) less than my results,,,,,which is minus the translation operation...
14:17:44 <Deewiant> and in any case, I get GOOD for all the tests before that (except N which assumes something about rounding)
14:17:58 <MikeRiley> yes, n does not assume rounding,,,
14:18:15 <MikeRiley> mine shows good,,,,but rounding could make it show bad...
14:18:20 <Deewiant> well your test gives BAD because it expects 0.444 or something when I get 0.445
14:18:39 <Deewiant> and 0.445 is actually closer to the correct result which is 0.4448 or so ;-)
14:18:54 <MikeRiley> which precision were you calculating with??
14:19:28 <Deewiant> I use floats but I the compiler may increase the precision if it thinks it's a good idea
14:19:29 <MikeRiley> i will probably modify that test a bit in order to fix possible rounding issues...
14:19:58 <MikeRiley> i thought at the time that rounding issues may cause a problem..
14:20:14 <Deewiant> i.e. if I do float x = y * z then the compiler might choose to calculate y*z as long double before making it float
14:20:18 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 is using double for all those calculations...
14:20:58 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: looking at your source for X, Vector_Matrix_Mul looks wrong
14:21:26 <MikeRiley> and the more i think about it,,, which used that for a specific task...
14:21:27 <Deewiant> the last ones added should be b.c[3][0] and [3][1] etc instead of [0][3] [1][3]
14:21:33 <MikeRiley> mainly reorient an object,,,and then move it...
14:21:41 <MikeRiley> so probably not the best formula to use...
14:22:21 <MikeRiley> you have a wrong version....here is what is in vector.c:
14:22:40 <MikeRiley> struct VECTOR3 Vector_Matrix_Mul(struct VECTOR3 a,struct MATRIX b)
14:22:40 <MikeRiley> Result.x=a.x*b.c[0][0]+a.y*b.c[1][0]+a.z*b.c[2][0]+b.c[0][3];
14:22:40 <MikeRiley> Result.y=a.x*b.c[0][1]+a.y*b.c[1][1]+a.z*b.c[2][1]+b.c[1][3];
14:22:41 <MikeRiley> Result.z=a.x*b.c[0][2]+a.y*b.c[1][2]+a.z*b.c[2][2]+b.c[2][3];
14:22:55 <Deewiant> a.x*b.c[0][0]+a.y*b.c[1][0]+a.z*b.c[2][0]+b.c[0][3];
14:22:57 <MikeRiley> the version on the website does not have the fixed code...
14:23:04 <Deewiant> why [0][0] [1][0] [2][0] [0][3]
14:23:09 <Deewiant> why is the last one in a different order
14:23:58 <MikeRiley> a translation matrix for (1 2 3) would look like:
14:24:23 <Deewiant> fine, but in any case that formula should be consistent
14:24:25 <MikeRiley> again,,,this came from a book i have...
14:24:50 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: that formula gives incorrect results, Result is neither a*b nor b*a
14:24:52 <MikeRiley> they may have done things differently...
14:25:27 <Deewiant> if your storage is like that then I think flipping the others' order may help
14:25:32 <MikeRiley> do not know what their intention was....but my code comes up with their results....
14:25:36 <Deewiant> because it has to be consistent
14:25:40 <MikeRiley> they may have been doing somethign a bit different...
14:26:48 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: what do you get from multiplying {{1, 2, 3, 0}, {1, 2, 3, 0}, {1, 2, 3, 0}, {1, 2, 3, 1}} with {{1,2,3,1}}
14:27:10 <MikeRiley> i will look deeper into it,,,,look for some different formulas...
14:27:30 <MikeRiley> again,,,the intent of this book may have been slightly different than what you are expecting....
14:27:31 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you can look on wikipedia for the formula for multiplying two matrices together...
14:27:39 <Deewiant> the intent should and does not matter
14:27:43 <MikeRiley> i know the formulat for multiplying two matrices...
14:27:47 <Deewiant> the fact is, that code does not multiply a vector by a matrix
14:28:12 <MikeRiley> intent does matter,,,if this book was using the matrices in a different way,,,it would matter about the formula they used....
14:28:17 <MikeRiley> either that,,,,or the book has it wrong...
14:28:51 <Deewiant> intent can't matter, multiplying two matrices together is a very well defined operation, if they do it differently it's not matrix multiplication
14:29:02 <Deewiant> the book may have a mistake indeed
14:29:11 <Deewiant> or you miscopied it, which I also think is a possibility
14:29:14 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,the book could have mistake in it...
14:29:23 <MikeRiley> i am looking at the book right now....matches my formulas...
14:29:38 <Deewiant> have you tried changing the order of those from [1][0] to [0][1]?
14:29:44 <MikeRiley> no miscopy....but definitely possible the book has them wrong
14:29:47 <Deewiant> maybe the formulas match but your storage order differs
14:30:05 <MikeRiley> no,,,using all the matrix/vector functions from this book....
14:30:16 <MikeRiley> and my results match the results from the book,,,,,
14:30:28 <MikeRiley> so my code matches the book,,,,but the book may be wrong...
14:30:43 <MikeRiley> the example from the book is the example in the 3DSP test...
14:30:53 <MikeRiley> that is how i knew the results to test...
14:31:04 <Deewiant> like said, I posted above the two possible results of that multiplication
14:31:08 <Deewiant> depending on which order it's done in
14:31:12 <Deewiant> and what the test expects is neither
14:31:38 <MikeRiley> i will look deeper into it....chances are the book i have is wrong....
14:33:16 <MikeRiley> anyhow...will get it straightened out and redo the test program to have correct results....
14:35:13 <MikeRiley> MVRS is a support fingerprint for a new feature in Rc/Funge-98 V2,,,,essentially concurrent concurrent funge...
14:35:22 <ais523> concurrent concurrent funge?
14:35:30 <MikeRiley> V2 can run multiple funges at once....
14:35:42 <pikhq> That's fiendish. :)
14:35:43 <MikeRiley> MVRS allows for data copy between funges,,,,
14:35:55 <MikeRiley> as well as the ability of an IP to travel to another funge...
14:36:04 <ais523> even C-INTERCAL can only have one Funge linked in at a time right now
14:36:27 <Deewiant> I was afraid it would be something like that :-p
14:36:34 <MikeRiley> V2 can now run an unlimited (well limited by memory) number of virtual machines...
14:36:41 <ais523> MikeRiley: can they have different numbers of dimensions?
14:37:03 <MikeRiley> also,,,one can be running funge/98 while another is running funge/93 or or funge/108
14:37:23 <MikeRiley> one can be running befunge while another is running unefunge or trefunge...
14:37:36 <ais523> MikeRiley: can any of them run programs other than funges?
14:37:56 <MikeRiley> i suppose it is possible,,,,but only funges are defined...
14:38:04 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: are they synchronized? i.e. all at the same tick (forgetting about TRDS)
14:38:20 <MikeRiley> there is a note in the manual concerning TRDS
14:38:31 <ais523> although I suppose that if you have the ability to redefine commands other than A-Z, you could easily write something in Funge that changed a Funge interpreter into a Brainfuck interpreter by redefining []+-,.<>
14:38:31 <Deewiant> unfortunately there is no manual about it online
14:38:36 <MikeRiley> each universe is its own...TRDS only effects the universe it is running in...and no others....
14:38:47 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: but still, doesn't answer my question, are they synchronized
14:39:09 <MikeRiley> as far as tick count....they are not synchronized if you use TRDS
14:39:29 <Deewiant> that makes it a bit easier to reason about :-)
14:39:38 <MikeRiley> jumping backwards in TRDS would change the tick count for only universe where somethign went backwards...
14:40:09 <MikeRiley> the code that executes this,,,,,loops over each VM,,,,which in each VM there is code that loops over each IP....
14:40:28 <MikeRiley> so once all the IPs in one VM have run,,,,then the next one will execute all of its IPs, etc...
14:41:03 <MikeRiley> the spec for MVRS is still in change...but here is what there is of it so far:
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> B (0gnirts flags--) - Big-Bang, create another universe
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> C ( -- n) - Number of existing universes
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> F (0gnirts Vd Vs Vsz) - Copy funge-space from another universe
14:41:06 <MikeRiley> G (0gnirts Vp Vd) - Go to another universe
14:41:08 <MikeRiley> J (0gnirts --) - Jump to new universe
14:41:10 <MikeRiley> N ( -- 0gnirts) - Get name of current universe
14:41:12 <MikeRiley> P (0gnirts Vd Vs Vsz) - Copy funge-space to another universe
14:41:14 <MikeRiley> F source vector must be x,y,z even if source universe is unefunge or befunge
14:41:16 <MikeRiley> F size vector is based upon current universe
14:41:20 <MikeRiley> Any command specifying a universe will reflect if the universe does
14:41:22 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so hmm, they are still executed discretely?
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14:41:45 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you should really consider pastebins or something
14:41:54 <MikeRiley> they are not independently executed...so they are cycle synced...
14:42:22 <ais523> MikeRiley: instead of putting a lot of text into the channel, you put it into a pastebin and link to the pastebin
14:42:23 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: i.e. places on the 'Net where you can paste stuff, as opposed to pasting to IRC :-)
14:42:34 <tusho> that was scripted ais523
14:42:36 <tusho> MikeRiley: stop flooding
14:42:38 <tusho> MikeRiley: pastebin.ca
14:42:40 <tusho> so that you don't flood the channel
14:42:50 <ais523> I happened to be reading what MikeRiley was saying at the time
14:42:53 <ais523> and just typed it when I saw you log in
14:43:04 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so hmm, if you do F in universe B then universe A has already executed and you'll get this tick's universe A instead of last tick's?
14:43:52 <MikeRiley> however the universe looks at the time F is executed
14:44:00 <Deewiant> or is it defined to be in the reverse order like IPs
14:44:18 <ais523> re the topic: someone should write an API to get the entire backlog of #esoteric as a string or something
14:44:38 <ais523> probably optbot, it seems to claim there would be
14:44:59 <MikeRiley> the code for F is simple....merly do a funge-space copy....however the source exists at the time of execution is what you get...
14:45:21 <MikeRiley> does not matter what cycle any universe might be in...
14:49:06 <MikeRiley> i put a copy of the V2 source on my site if you want to see what i am doing. http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2.tgz
14:50:11 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you should fix the MIME types on your site
14:50:22 <Deewiant> that is most definitely not text/html :-P
14:50:42 <MikeRiley> at least i do not think i do....let me look....
14:51:58 <MikeRiley> looking now to see if i can change the mime types...
14:52:00 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: they do advertise "Customizable MIME Types"
14:52:39 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,looking.....not finding it so far....
14:53:08 <Deewiant> well I don't know about their user interface but it /should/ be there and if you can't find it, complain to them :-P
14:53:45 <MikeRiley> might have to.....been through half the stuff there,,,and so far no mime types
14:54:37 <Deewiant> hmm, looks like MVRS is going to force me to rewrite my interpreter :-)
14:55:09 <ais523> Deewiant: do you still aim to implement every fingerprint ever?
14:55:23 <MikeRiley> but at the same time,,,will now allow me to replace my mini-funge with a much more powerful one...
14:55:33 <Deewiant> ais523: I never did, so don't hold your breath on IFFI ;-)
14:55:52 <Deewiant> ais523: WIND and FING were the two that I consciously decided not to, earlier
14:56:07 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 probably supports more fingerprints than anything,,,but sill not all of them that exist...
14:56:19 <MikeRiley> and FNGR deewiant??? eheheeheheheh
14:56:33 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: did I confuse FING and FNGR?
14:56:51 <Deewiant> alright, so WIND and FNGR then
14:57:57 <MikeRiley> well,,,if ipower supports customizable mime types...they are not on my control panel anywhere....
14:58:13 <MikeRiley> and probably all the SysV IPC ones as well deewiant???
14:58:21 <ais523> I feel so proud, I managed to make a fingerprint that everyone's scared of implementing
14:58:44 <tusho> there should be an EVAL fingerprint
14:58:46 <tusho> that's my contribution
14:58:53 <ais523> tusho: that evaluates what?
14:58:59 <tusho> ais523: befunge-98
14:59:09 <ais523> tusho: couldn't you just use a goto?
14:59:10 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: yes, I won't implement any non-portable ones
14:59:23 <Deewiant> ais523: are the docs for it somewhere
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14:59:58 <ais523> Deewiant: yes they are, I'll compile them for you though because I think they're only in source form on the Internet atm
15:00:03 <ais523> I'll put compiled documentation up for you
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15:00:36 <MikeRiley> what would EVAL do???? that cannot already be done???
15:00:49 <tusho> MikeRiley: not sure
15:00:54 <tusho> different dimensions
15:00:58 <tusho> you could execute trefunge in befunge
15:01:06 <tusho> by passing ( code 3 ) to the eval command
15:01:11 <MikeRiley> MVRS in a way could let you do that...
15:01:21 <tusho> as well as unefunge in befunge, etc with ( code 1 )
15:01:38 <MikeRiley> interesting idea...just wonder if it really has any use...
15:02:00 <tusho> MikeRiley: Do most funge things have a use? :)
15:02:11 <tusho> could use it for fungot
15:02:17 <tusho> (as an ^eval command only he could use)
15:02:18 <MikeRiley> well....no....except keep people like us busy messing with it!!!! eheheheeheheheheheh
15:02:27 <tusho> but then you could just do a goto in that case
15:02:32 <tusho> still, the different-dimensions thing is nice
15:02:48 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/doc/html/guplsbpq.htm#The-IFFI-Fingerprint
15:05:18 <ais523> the joys of distributed version control, I can compile the documentation directly in the repository and it doesn't break anything
15:08:18 <Deewiant> ais523: that's some deep funge-intercal entanglement going on there :-P
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15:08:42 <ais523> the Funge program can even change the syntax of the INTERCAL program by adding new commands
15:12:17 <tusho> Suggested name for bridges of this sort: Esolang intercourse.
15:14:53 <tusho> Yes, that flows better. (<-- Man, that wasn't even intentional)
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15:15:11 <MikeRiley> deewiant,, do you know what your final transform matrix looks like??? want to see if yours and mine are the same now...
15:15:55 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: everything up to what X expects after the call are the same as what the test expects
15:17:33 <MikeRiley> this is the final one,,,after all the rotations ahave been multiplied in...
15:18:10 <Deewiant> so it looks like you changed from column vectors to row vectors
15:18:25 <MikeRiley> only thing i changed wat the translation matrix...
15:19:25 <MikeRiley> i changed the code that generates translation matrices...
15:20:08 <MikeRiley> new code creates them as above....old code made these:
15:20:35 <MikeRiley> no other code has changed at this point...
15:21:10 <MikeRiley> and changed vector_matrix_mul to this:
15:21:14 <MikeRiley> Result.x=a.x*b.c[0][0]+a.y*b.c[1][0]+a.z*b.c[2][0]+b.c[3][0];
15:21:14 <MikeRiley> Result.y=a.x*b.c[0][1]+a.y*b.c[1][1]+a.z*b.c[2][1]+b.c[3][1];
15:21:14 <MikeRiley> Result.z=a.x*b.c[0][2]+a.y*b.c[1][2]+a.z*b.c[2][2]+b.c[3][2];
15:23:06 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so now T says the matrix is wrong in that test... :-P
15:24:02 <MikeRiley> need to fix teh matrix comparison on the final matrix...then will upload new test
15:24:26 <MikeRiley> also fixed the tst for S * T which would have been wrong as well
15:25:55 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: fixed it manually by replacing @s, and yes that is the same matrix as I get
15:26:07 <Deewiant> the result after X is [11.02, 3.97, 15.96, 1.00]
15:27:20 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,,let me fix the test...then will see the final on X
15:29:08 <MikeRiley> 11.017948806286 3.968910902739 11.017948806286
15:31:24 <Deewiant> {{11.014}, {3.97}, {15.961}, {1.}}
15:31:28 <Deewiant> {{0.116, 5.665, 7.323, 34.422}}
15:32:13 <MikeRiley> first 2 look good.....wonder what is up with z.....
15:32:15 <Deewiant> I just use the same routine for matrix-matrix and matrix-vector multiplication, much simpler :-)
15:32:54 <MikeRiley> mine just eliminates the loops....but should still produce the same result....in theory....
15:33:21 <MikeRiley> if you have the same final transform matrix as i do....hmmmmm
15:33:39 <Deewiant> for mathematica I just used the matrix you pasted earlier, verbatim
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15:34:32 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,then i would expect your result is teh correct one....wonder why only my z is off....curious....
15:36:47 <MikeRiley> type!!!!! stupid me!!!! eheheheheheheheehhe here is what i get now:
15:36:49 <MikeRiley> 11.017948806286 3.968910902739 15.964100480080
15:37:17 <Deewiant> of course it was one, but what was it :-)
15:37:30 <MikeRiley> in my printf i was outputing a.x instead of a.z!!! eheheeheheheheheheheheh
15:37:45 <MikeRiley> plugging final numbers into the test....
15:41:51 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,test works now with new numbers...
15:46:57 <Deewiant> N and X fail for CCBI due to precision issues, otherwise all good
15:47:16 <Deewiant> (this is why Mycology only gives UNDEFs for FPSP and FPDP!)
15:48:36 <MikeRiley> intersting tho that it matrix checks right,,,since those are all fp as well...
15:50:01 <MikeRiley> and it checks for me since i used the output of my calculations to produce the test comparison...
15:50:38 <MikeRiley> might change things to undef and then print the results and what the results should be...
15:50:58 <MikeRiley> or else multiply the results by 1000 and take the integer and compare to that...
15:51:14 <MikeRiley> measuring to 3 digits should be precise enough??? and prevent rounding erorrs
15:51:41 <Deewiant> yeah, that should work as well
15:51:49 <Deewiant> just 1 digit is probably good enough also...
15:52:07 <MikeRiley> probably....if a calc is wrong, it is liable to be way wrong
15:52:27 <MikeRiley> just like my previous X!!! eheheheheh
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16:51:36 <asiekierka> Ok, upped Screeble #23. http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles
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18:41:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | : probably isn't well explained..
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19:04:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I will not be reachable tomorrow btw
19:05:45 <Deewiant> (I won't remember tomorrow anyway so if I have something to ask I'll ask it in any case :-P)
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20:01:46 <fizzie> Deewiant; We (or at least I) will then mercilessly mock you for your forgetfulness.
20:02:01 <Deewiant> so I better not ask anything then ;-)
20:03:10 <fizzie> Mission: accomplished.
20:05:19 -!- tusho has joined.
20:11:30 <fizzie> For some reason I am sorely tempted to utter something like "Hello, little girly man." but that would be just pointless; can't resist mentioning it this way, though.
20:17:26 <tusho> i don't even look female ;.;
20:23:53 <fizzie> There was that one video; it's the only picturological thing of you I have seen.
20:24:18 <AnMaster> WikiLinux - The Free Linux distro that anyone can edit
20:24:18 <fizzie> AnMaster; Not the nude pics again.
20:25:15 <tusho> fizzie: http://tentaclerapture.com/lulz/photo2.jpg
20:26:53 <tusho> fizzie: please don't say photo2.jpg looks like a girl too
20:27:40 <oklopol> ya i'm so gonna wank @ that!
20:27:50 <fizzie> Are you _absolutely_ sure about your gender?
20:27:56 <tusho> fizzie: Quite thoroughly.
20:27:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm here now, in case you need me, btw.
20:28:02 <tusho> Unless I just grew a penis somehow.
20:28:16 <tusho> Uh, that was a bundled statement.
20:28:22 <tusho> {Unless I just grew a penis somehow and I'm also gay}
20:28:49 <tusho> oklopol: If I was female then I'd have had to grow a penis somehow
20:28:51 <tusho> and I'd also be gay
20:28:55 <oklopol> genders are so complicated
20:29:21 <oklopol> well for some reason i thought of the penis as a gender switch
20:29:43 <tusho> Gender is seperate from sex.
20:29:52 <tusho> Then I replied to [20:27:50] <fizzie> Are you _absolutely_ sure about your gender? wrongly.
20:30:03 <tusho> Although I am sure of both my gender and sex (they're both male.)
20:30:04 <oklopol> i don't believe in complicated things, actually, penis will from now on be my definition of male
20:30:25 <tusho> oklopol: so eunuchs are genderless?
20:31:02 <oklopol> gender doesn't have meaning to me, as anything but a physical detail of the body
20:31:54 <oklopol> gender isn't mental, you have a physical sex and a sexual preference.
20:32:10 <tusho> why do you think people have sex changes?
20:32:14 <tusho> their gender is A, their sex is B.
20:32:25 <oklopol> they prefer a set of genitals better than the other
20:32:35 <tusho> that's sexual orientation
20:32:53 <oklopol> you're complicating things for no reason
20:33:11 <tusho> you're just being completely insensitive to a huge range of people
20:34:31 <oklopol> all i'm saying is the separation of gender and sex is meaningless to me, for all intents and purposes.
20:35:33 <oklopol> i can live with "some people wanna be physically female/male, most people are one or the other, physically, and most people like one of the two sexes better than the other"
20:35:49 <oklopol> but i don't believe in gender
20:36:09 <AnMaster> there should be an unicode symbol for "there are too many unicode symbols"
20:36:15 <tusho> oklopol: it's a good thing not believing in something doesn't make it not exist
20:36:16 <oklopol> "being completely insensitive" doesn't really mean anything to me either.
20:36:35 <tusho> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
20:36:51 <oklopol> tusho: anyway, this is one of those issues where you say something exists without actually defining it; you may be right, but things without definition are nothing to me.
20:37:06 <tusho> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
20:37:07 <oklopol> this has happened about a million times, i simply see the world differently than humans
20:37:10 <tusho> there's your definition
20:37:29 <oklopol> gender = preferred set of genitals
20:37:57 <tusho> did you even fucking read
20:38:21 <tusho> Gender refers to the differences between men and women. Encyclopædia Britannica notes that gender identity is "an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex."[1] Although gender is commonly used interchangeably with sex, within the social sciences it often refers to specifically social differences, known as gender roles in the biological sciences.
20:38:33 <tusho> People whose gender identity feels incongruent with their physical bodies may call themselves transgender or genderqueer.
20:38:44 <fizzie> I think the point to note here is "commonly used interchangeably with sex".
20:38:56 <fizzie> And "within the social sciences" is not necessarily the case here.
20:39:07 <oklopol> i know the distinction, and was going by it
20:39:25 <tusho> fizzie: Would you refer to a transsexual as their sex or their gender?
20:39:31 <tusho> I should hope the latter.
20:39:32 <oklopol> anyway, "gender roles" don't mean anything to me
20:39:56 <oklopol> not that i care, why the fuck can't you let me disagree?
20:40:08 <oklopol> this is so uninteresting i can't breathe.
20:40:34 <tusho> disagreeing on facts is rather unreasonable
20:41:02 <oklopol> well i'm not gonna argue anymore, for all intents and purposes we agree completely.
20:41:23 <tusho> you "don't believe" in gender
20:41:50 <oklopol> i don't believe it's a useful property to list on a human
20:42:18 <oklopol> "not believing" doesn't really mean anything to me, i've already explained what i meant
20:42:42 <oklopol> anyway, really, this is stupid
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20:43:44 <dogface> People don't have gender, words have gender.
20:44:24 <dogface> "Cara" is feminine, "sacapuntas" is masculine, "carro" is masculine, "pluma" is feminine...
20:44:31 <fizzie> Well, my particular viewpoint here is that in casual conversation I ought to be able to say either "sex" or "gender" and assume that a single answer ("male" or "female") will suffice for most; and in more complicated cases the answer will then include both "sex" and "gender", whatever those are.
20:44:32 <tusho> dogface: people and words have gender
20:44:40 <fizzie> Our words do not have gender. :/
20:44:44 <tusho> fizzie: Correct. :P
20:44:45 <dogface> "dogface" is neither, because it's in English.
20:45:13 <tusho> fizzie: So say someone said that their sex was male but their gender was female. Would you refer to them as "he" or "she"?
20:45:15 <oklopol> fizzie: that hasn't been the issue at any point of this conversation
20:45:20 <tusho> I would hope "she".
20:45:48 <MikeRiley> interesting topic for this channel!!
20:46:03 <MikeRiley> /me wonders what he came into the middle of....
20:46:06 <dogface> Semantic debates are evil.
20:46:08 <tusho> MikeRiley: this is #esoteric, what did you expect
20:46:13 <oklopol> indeed, i don't think we've ever had a conversation this useless
20:46:22 <tusho> anyway, i've asked fizzie that question twice, i'll ask it until he answers and then I'll stop discussing this
20:46:38 <oklopol> fizzie: answer what he hopes, fast :P
20:46:49 <tusho> MikeRiley: [20:45:12] <tusho> fizzie: So say someone said that their sex was male but their gender was female. Would you refer to them as "he" or "she"?
20:47:18 <dogface> I'd ask them which they'd prefer I refer to them as.
20:47:35 <tusho> dogface: The whole point of them identifying their gender as female would be that they consider themselves female.
20:47:37 <MikeRiley> if they considered their gender to be female,,,then she is the appropriate pronoun...
20:48:28 <MikeRiley> or if they are bi-gendered, then whatever gender they present as is the appropriate one to call them...
20:48:43 <dogface> tusho: what if they independently decide that "gender" is physical, "sex" is imagined?
20:48:52 <dogface> Or if I have no idea what they're talking about?
20:48:56 <tusho> dogface: then they'd just be shuffling terms for no reason :P
20:48:59 <tusho> and presumably you could ask
20:49:00 <MikeRiley> gender is how you feel about yourself...sex is your plumbing....
20:49:01 <tusho> I'll stop talking now
20:49:05 <tusho> fizzie can reply to me in /msg
20:49:24 <MikeRiley> how you view yourself that should be...
20:49:48 <fizzie> Sorry, WLAN troubleshooting here; that has a rather larger priority than the poinless sex/gender stuff.
20:49:57 <tusho> so, more important topics. Like befunge. :P
20:50:21 <oklopol> i haven't worked on my languages for ages :<
20:50:32 <oklopol> sleepy all the time, can't get anything done really
20:50:32 <MikeRiley> i find both topics fascinating,,,,but expect more topics like befunge than sex/gender/tg ones...
20:50:42 <dogface> oklopol: learning to speak various natural languages?
20:51:05 <oklopol> dogface: well sure, but i was talking about my esolangs
20:51:21 <oklopol> i'm slowly learning them all, of course, at various paces :D
20:51:43 <tusho> MikeRiley: #esoteric being on topic has been a bit of an anomaly lately
20:52:06 <oklopol> yeah it's great the channel name is so permitting
20:52:49 * dogface directs everybody in the world into #esoteric-blah
20:52:57 <tusho> dogface: that's for botfloods
20:53:00 <tusho> not general discussion
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20:55:38 <oklopol> hmm, wonder how long stackoverbotter has time left :P
20:55:56 <oklopol> what's the default stack size in python?
20:56:36 <oklopol> how the fuck is it still online
20:59:54 <tusho> what is stackoverbotter
20:59:56 <oklopol> anyone wanna count the lines since stackoverbotter joined
21:00:05 <tusho> stackoverbotter: hmm hi
21:00:11 <oklopol> it's a purely functional, in the unlambda sense, irc bot
21:00:12 <tusho> replies lolz when you talk to it?
21:00:42 <tusho> oklopol: link to src?
21:00:44 <oklopol> coded it in python, the bf interpreter i did ages ago, but it was quite hard to get in
21:00:49 <tusho> stackoverbotter: bf 2
21:01:54 <fizzie> Is a bot that doesn't run brainfuck really a bot, anyway? It seems to be a requirement.
21:02:11 <tusho> It's just a robot.
21:02:11 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p315114666.txt
21:02:19 <tusho> Brainfuck is hard to do short text generation in, though.
21:02:22 <tusho> So it makes it into a bot.
21:02:27 <tusho> So that the code is shorter.
21:02:33 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, a bot is something that connects, joins, pongs, and runs brainfuck.
21:02:44 <oklopol> and possibly something more
21:02:53 <fizzie> My fungot doesn't join unless I "^raw JOIN #esoteric" it.
21:03:05 <oklopol> well raw can be substituted for that i guess
21:03:18 -!- stackoverbotter has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:04:06 <oklopol> actually disabling it, while making it mandatory to have input, is kinda... cool
21:04:44 -!- stackoverbotter has joined.
21:04:49 <stackoverbotter> usho!n=tusho@91.105.80.203 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::&%#bf ,[.,]!hi
21:05:06 <oklopol> !!! because it was shorter to write
21:05:26 <oklopol> !!! was shorter to code than !, because ! is in the identor
21:05:47 -!- stackoverbotter has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:06:03 <oklopol> you have to be careful around it ;)
21:06:12 <tusho> oklopol: i should write a bot in haskell
21:06:18 <oklopol> it's just i don't really have an ide for python
21:06:19 <tusho> so that I can claim that writing a purely functional bot is trivil
21:06:30 <oklopol> but it sucks for something like that
21:06:38 -!- stackoverbotter has joined.
21:06:43 <oklopol> stop killing it, i wanna see the stack overflow :P
21:07:15 <tusho> stackoverbotter: stack
21:07:21 <tusho> bring it to #esoteric-blah
21:07:39 <oklopol> tusho: it's really just hard because there's no closures, and my way to code is first to write, then to debug.
21:07:52 <tusho> oklopol: python has closures..
21:07:55 <tusho> its lambdas are closures
21:08:00 <tusho> it doesnt have statements in lambdas though
21:08:04 <tusho> now #esoteric-blah
21:08:06 <oklopol> while this should clearly be done by first writing it in pieces, then copypasting
21:09:00 <oklopol> i meant you cannot do stuff like lambda a:lambda b:a, but you definitely can, at least that exact thinmg
21:09:35 <oklopol> well anyway, that's one of the things that are not allowed for purely functional okopython
21:09:40 -!- stackoverbotter has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:09:50 <oklopol> i could just have used bf for tat
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21:11:49 <tusho> [21:11:15] <tusho> oklopol: make a bot that replies to "lolz" with "stackoverbotter: hi"
21:11:54 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:11:57 <tusho> [21:11:15] <tusho> oklopol: make a bot that replies to "lolz" with "stackoverbotter: hi"
21:12:04 <tusho> [21:11:15] <tusho> oklopol: make a bot that replies to "lolz" with "stackoverbotter: hi"
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21:27:17 <fizzie> No functional changes, just made it a bit easier to add commands that do replies.
21:29:10 <oklopol> it should say "i like them too, but i liked them before they were cool"
21:29:22 <oklopol> perhaps cool, that makes less sense
21:29:53 <oklopol> EVERYONE PITCH IN, WE NEED TO MAKE FIZZIE'S BOT MASSIVE AND USELESS
21:30:41 <tusho> fizzie: add an addcmd function
21:30:46 <oklopol> hmm, can trds recall events from before it was loaded??
21:30:53 <tusho> ^addcmd cmdname brainfuckprogram
21:30:59 <tusho> fizzie: it gets its arguments as input
21:31:02 <oklopol> yeah, automatically allocates space for the code
21:31:04 <tusho> and output goes to the channel
21:31:07 <oklopol> noooo it needs to be funge :)
21:31:09 <tusho> ^addcmd echo ,[.,]
21:31:11 <tusho> and you can then do
21:31:55 <oklopol> you could probably use a separate Z-level for each added command, and use threading to get around "safely" in the code
21:32:40 <fizzie> oklopol; It would need some more extensions. Plain concurrent-funge doesn't help, since when the "main IP" does the IRC read, it blocks all other IPs from executing.
21:32:57 <fizzie> Also with funge-space writing possibilities, I don't think it's very easy to do it safely.
21:33:26 <oklopol> well true, perhaps there should be a safe-thread fingerprint
21:33:45 <oklopol> MikeRiley: would probably require a considerable structural change
21:34:14 <oklopol> MikeRiley: make his ircbot let you write befunge modules
21:34:16 <fizzie> I'd rather use some sort of scheme that doesn't mean running at full CPU utilization. This thing makes a horrible noise if you make it shift to the higher cpufreq levels.
21:34:53 <oklopol> perhaps give it less processor time
21:34:54 <MikeRiley> and i take it one ip may block on a read while others still need to be running??
21:35:12 <fizzie> Yes. I think there was some talk about a fingerprint that would help in this.
21:35:34 <oklopol> anyway i think my fingerprint will be for safe threads
21:35:37 <MikeRiley> well,,,SCKE gives you a way to see if a socket read would block or not...
21:36:00 <oklopol> because i decided i'd make a fingerprint, i think, a few days ago
21:36:17 <fizzie> Still not sure I'm comfortable with running code in the same interpreter as the IRC bot. It needs some more thinking first. The brainfuck-based command adding would be easier.
21:36:34 <oklopol> would it suffice to let the user specify what commands are safe to run?
21:36:42 <oklopol> and perhaps some additional limitations on p and g
21:36:47 <fizzie> Anyway, busy with other stuff now, can't really participate in the enlightening debate.
21:54:55 <tusho> *IRC> unparse $ Prefixed (UserPrefix "tusho" "n=tusho" "foobar") (PRIVMSG (Channel "#esoteric") "Hello, world!") ":tusho!n=tusho@foobar PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world!"
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21:57:53 <oklopol> tusho: that looks like a good star
21:58:10 <tusho> unfortunately I have to specialcase every parser
21:58:15 <tusho> as I can't dynamically get PRIVMSG, etc
21:58:18 <tusho> I might just use Network.IRC
21:58:23 <tusho> even though using strings for command names is less cool
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22:34:29 <tusho> oklopol: rate the okoness of this code: http://hpaste.org/9693#a1
22:34:43 <tusho> it echoes all messages in the channels it's in, or that it's /msg'd
22:34:50 <fizzie> fungot would turn ":tusho!n=tusho@foobar PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world!" to funge-space stored cells so that (0,4) = 1 (indicating that there was a prefix), (1-x,4) = "tusho!n=tusho@foobar\0", (0,5) = 2 (number of arguments), (1-x,5) = "PRIVMSG\0", (0-x,6) = "#esoteric\0", (0-x,7) = "Hello, world!\0".
22:35:53 <fizzie> If you manage to get an IRC message with >100 arguments, it starts to overwrite code with them, actually. The spec promises that there are always <=15 arguments, but an evil IRC server could do the nasty.
22:36:03 <fizzie> (And going away again.)
22:38:33 <oklopol> tusho: it looks a quite oko, and very weird
22:38:42 <tusho> oklopol: but readable, right?
22:38:53 <tusho> i think it's pretty easy to comprehend
22:38:54 <oklopol> somewhat, i'm not sure what arg does
22:39:10 <tusho> oklopol: arg takes a function and passes the next argument of the command to it
22:39:45 <tusho> oklopol: part of Control.Alternate
22:39:49 <tusho> basically, "if this fails, try this"
22:40:16 <oklopol> figured would imply i asked for fun
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22:46:35 <tusho> oklopol: readable oko? :O
22:48:07 <oklopol> oerjan: nice to see you, we're on cleaner topics today
22:50:09 <fizzie> I wouldn't call my befunge stuff "clean", but on the other hand we're not particularly "on it" either.
22:55:43 <oklopol> well i wouldn't call my python bot that clean either, and i don't think we've been on anything else for a while
22:56:11 <oklopol> well gender issues, but that was very clean
22:56:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you have to *tell* me the issue before I can solve it, unless you want me to make shit up..
22:57:28 <oerjan> hey, that's relevant! maybe.
22:57:46 <oklopol> optbot: the issue was gender, if i understand your question
22:57:46 <optbot> oklopol: and a dot a bit above the vertical line
22:57:56 <oklopol> and i don't think you can really solve it :D
22:58:29 <oklopol> optbot: that definitely has nothing to do with anything
22:58:29 <optbot> oklopol: Once before, Google cut back my site from 89,000,000 to
22:58:48 <oklopol> err, to what, optbot? wasn't that clear enough
22:58:49 <optbot> oklopol: i mean open it
22:59:05 <oklopol> right they opened it, scrambled its brain, and usercount dropped?
22:59:22 <oklopol> damn, i forgot he needs to hear his name all the time.
22:59:28 <oklopol> what a self-centered bastard
22:59:35 <oerjan> mmm, scrambled brains...
23:00:27 <dogface> optbot: Hello. I am dogface. How can I help you?
23:00:27 <optbot> dogface: uhm chose 3 of them
23:01:19 <optbot> dogface: at the same time
23:01:29 <oklopol> optbot: how does that make you feel?
23:01:29 <optbot> oklopol: CamelCase is very lame though :P
23:01:34 <dogface> optbot: What resemblance do you see?
23:01:51 <oklopol> optbot: what's a trinary bee?
23:01:52 <optbot> oklopol: its so cheesy XD
23:02:05 <optbot> dogface: I noticed that English has a missing grammar construct.
23:02:29 <dogface> optbot: Can you elaborate on that?
23:02:30 <oerjan> wow, google corrects it to ternary bee, which has one hit
23:02:57 <optbot> dogface: I thought that C did no abstraction on that. . .
23:03:04 <oklopol> english needs more brainfuck, we can all agree on that!
23:03:15 <dogface> optbot: Can you elaborate on that?
23:03:16 <optbot> dogface: I don't know if lament is part of the committee, or just waiting for a coup d'etat.
23:03:33 <dogface> optbot: Do you wish that lament is part of the committee or just waiting for a coup detat?
23:12:08 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: some water
23:12:15 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: same thing.
23:13:00 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: * Pepperoni wonders how a Pez Pizza would taste.
23:14:08 <oerjan> optbot: what does Pez Pizza wonder?
23:14:08 <optbot> oerjan: yes... in some way or another...
23:18:01 <oklopol> heh, for a second i thought KingOfKarlsruhe and oerjan were having the weirdest conversation ever
23:18:46 <tusho> let's all talk like optbot for a bit
23:18:51 <tusho> (without the mandatory name addressing)
23:19:53 <tusho> oklopol: i don't think it'd work unless you had a good algorithm
23:21:34 <oklopol> actually dancing links is not that efficient for that
23:24:29 <oklopol> it's giving the same error still
23:25:53 <tusho> *Main> decodeAndHandle "PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\r\n"
23:25:53 <tusho> [Message Nothing "PRIVMSG" ["#esoteric","hi"]]
23:26:04 <tusho> nice, readable, working code!
23:27:53 <oklopol> what's that Nothing there?
23:27:58 <tusho> oklopol: no message prefix
23:28:10 <oklopol> and once again, guessed is better
23:28:16 <tusho> *Main> decodeAndHandle ":tusho!n=tusho@serv PRIVMSG a :hi\r\n"
23:28:17 <tusho> [Message Nothing "PRIVMSG" ["tusho","hi"]]
23:28:20 <tusho> aaaand bot messages work too!
23:28:24 <tusho> all I have to do now is plug it into the network
23:28:31 <oklopol> also why the fuck do i need to tell people i would've guessed right :P
23:30:20 <fungot> Should I do that "^bfcmd echo ,[.,] after which ^echo foo is processed as ^bf ,[.,]!foo" thing?
23:30:54 <fungot> I don't feel like puzzling the *funge execution stuff out just yet.
23:30:57 <oklopol> fungot: you can't, bots can't code
23:31:11 <fungot> Well, should I have fizzie do that?
23:31:39 <fizzie> Well, it could be the fun, and provide some much-needed interactivimotity.
23:31:56 <oklopol> can you elaborate on interactivimotity
23:32:10 <fizzie> Getting you people to use fungot for something.
23:34:27 <tusho> fizzie: it'd be nice to be able to do it as a uri
23:34:39 <tusho> ^bfcmduri echo http://foo.com/my_underload_interp
23:36:56 <fizzie> Well, I may add that support at some point. I wonder how good RC/Funge-98 is with fungespace resource usage, though, if I allocate a single line of tens of thousands of cells (not long for a brainfuck program, I guess).
23:38:17 <tusho> oklopol: http://hpaste.org/9694
23:38:21 <tusho> I just need to add networkability
23:39:11 <tusho> oklopol: think it's readable
23:43:10 <oklopol> tusho: it's readable, less weird than your original
23:43:17 <oklopol> i'm not sure about its okoness
23:43:19 <tusho> less weird? howso? :P
23:43:23 <tusho> it's not all that different
23:43:36 <oklopol> but it has more stuff, so the weird doesn't stand out!
23:43:48 <oklopol> also it wasn't that weird after i knew what stuff meant, ofc.
23:44:25 <tusho> oklopol: i think it's kind of okoy in that it's kind of a bizzare model (the hugely nested lambda thing) that allows you to write really short, but comprehendable code
23:51:25 <fizzie> Huh, RC/Funge-98 segfaulted.
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