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02:32:20 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hashes
02:32:28 <Slereah_> Will this man ever do something with specs!
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04:51:16 <Sgeo> My dad's being a jackass. Bye all
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06:34:12 <oklopol> To run a ### program, type a #. <<< :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
06:34:31 <oklopol> umm, that was all i returned to say
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12:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | good.
12:48:44 <optbot> Mony: And the suits & ties are themselves implying that they speak from authority. . .
12:50:22 <optbot> tusho: There is no such thing.
12:51:15 <fizzie> optbot: You do not exist?
12:51:16 <optbot> fizzie: ZzzOW! I fell out of bed!
12:51:57 <fizzie> optbot: Do bots dream of electric... uh... #sheep?
12:51:57 <optbot> fizzie: also tell me: what is "concise lisp"?
12:52:36 <optbot> fizzie: I know what an array is.. and I'm guessing a cell is a content of the array.
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13:09:34 <ais523> tusho: when did you get here?
13:09:46 <ais523> tusho: it said you weren't here
13:10:05 <fizzie> Your client is opinionated.
13:10:18 <ais523> normally it gets it right, no idea why it was wrong this time
13:10:37 <fizzie> Maybe tusho is just so unremarkable.
13:11:08 <tusho> ais523: you'll find this interesting/amusing as an emacs user - You know Aza Raskin, son of UI designer Jeff Raskin? Advocator of non-modal interfaces, verb-based stuff, etc. He's helped make "Ubiquity" for Mozilla - it's kind of hard to describe in one line because it's one of those generic "You can have stuff and combine stuff with other stuff to make more stuff" things, so just read and watch I guess: http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/
13:11:11 <tusho> i bet that got cut off.
13:11:15 <tusho> here'st he second half just in case
13:11:21 <tusho> illa - it's kind of hard to describe in one line because it's one of those generic "You can have stuff and combine stuff with other stuff to make more stuff" things, so just read and watch I guess: http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/
13:11:31 <fizzie> Actually it did not get cut off.
13:11:34 <ais523> actually it didn't get cut off
13:12:34 <tusho> Actually, get cut off it didn't.
13:15:10 <fizzie> Did it, cut off not get! Actually.
13:15:39 <tusho> Did not it off actually get cut.
13:19:21 <ais523> tusho: oh dear, I was looking through esolang's Recent Changes
13:19:33 <ais523> apparently the creator of Esme has made a new language
13:19:41 <ais523> which makes just as much sense
13:19:56 <tusho> ###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e #b#ee#r...
13:19:59 <tusho> that is the best line on the esowiki
13:20:30 <tusho> ais523: hmm, generally a troll wouldn't keep trolling tiny bits if no-one's listening
13:20:31 <ais523> I know you want to be proved wrong, but unfortunately all the very best lines never seem to end up on Esolang
13:20:47 <tusho> so ... what the hell is he doing?
13:21:05 <tusho> due to the crap about esmeraldavfdwiki on the Esme talk page, hes' obviously not serious
13:21:17 <tusho> but ... what? does he think it's some kind of subtle hilarious humour?
13:21:19 <tusho> if so, what's the funny part?
13:21:25 <ais523> it reminds me a bit of SpectateSwamp, actually
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13:21:28 <ais523> not nearly as bad though
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13:21:37 <tusho> ais523: 'created as a lol'
13:21:43 <tusho> also [[Here's a example url of Esme in wiki software: http://www.vfd.org/esmeralda-cgi-bin/esme-wiki.pl?id=VeeBeeWiki:Uncyclopedia.css
13:21:43 <tusho> Dagoth Ur, Mad God 02:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC) ]]
13:21:49 <tusho> so, obviously not serious
13:22:10 <ais523> I don't know... the whole thing looks serious, but all the links are dead and none of the leads go anywhere
13:22:26 <ais523> it's like seeing a snippet of something extracted from a universe where it makes sense and placed here
13:22:30 <ais523> so the whole thing is out of context
13:22:47 <tusho> ais523: but he says 'created as a lol'
13:22:53 <tusho> and seems to be trolling zzo38 with that
13:22:59 <tusho> [[It works by tapping out "ESME" into Morse code, then writing "Esme" in to the papers. Dagoth Ur, Mad God 07:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC) ]]
13:23:10 <tusho> there is no universe that both has the esowiki and in which that makes sense
13:23:10 <ais523> well, aren't most esolangs created as a joke, originally?
13:23:16 <ais523> that's most esolangs, not most serious esolangs
13:23:19 <tusho> ais523: yes, but then they're marked as jokes
13:23:20 <Slereah> Yeah, but even a joke language needs some sort of specs.
13:23:27 <tusho> these are just ... absurdist artwork pieces
13:23:34 <Slereah> Otherwise, it's just "LOL RANDOM"
13:23:35 <tusho> that the author trolls about when asked to explain
13:23:43 <tusho> except ... the art isn't funny or thought-provoking
13:23:47 <tusho> or any other traits commonly attributed to art
13:23:53 <ais523> maybe that's the art in it
13:24:03 <ais523> a sort of art so modern that people don't appreciate it yet
13:24:19 <ais523> wasn't there an art movement which found art in taking ordinary things and calling them art?
13:28:28 <tusho> Multiplayer Darwinia.
13:28:35 <tusho> That sounds nice, Introversion software. Is it out yet?
13:28:45 <ais523> anyway, I actually got gcc to compile something into ABI today
13:28:52 <ais523> it's still buggy though and fails on complex programs
13:29:16 <tusho> ais523: what does hello world look like in ABI?
13:29:19 <tusho> and how easy is ABI->bf?
13:29:36 <ais523> tusho: each ABI command corresponds to a BF subroutine, so it's mostly just search and replace
13:29:40 <ais523> although using named cells
13:29:55 <ais523> and I haven't programmed output yet, but it would look something like this:
13:30:59 <tusho> oh, and I'm actually writing a perl web app with a continuation-based web server
13:31:09 <tusho> never has a stranger combination of non-esoteric technologies appeared
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13:32:00 <tusho> (actually it went something like this: this will be hell without continuations. i don't feel like learning the smalltalk environment more than I already do right now. ok, hm, I can only think of one other in a language I sort-of(barely)-know - Continuity for Perl.)
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13:34:14 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> tusho: each ABI command corresponds to a BF subroutine, so it's mostly just search and replace
13:34:17 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> although using named cells
13:34:19 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> and I haven't programmed output yet, but it would look something like this:
13:34:21 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> mov.8 $72, %scratch
13:34:23 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> out %scratch
13:34:24 <tusho> did you get my latest messages?
13:34:25 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> mov.8 $101, %scratch
13:34:26 <tusho> and I saw all of that
13:34:27 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> out %scratch
13:34:29 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> and so on
13:34:31 <ais523> [13:32] <ais523> the syntax is designed to look very like asm
13:34:33 <ais523> [13:32] <ais523> because gcc is good at asm
13:34:35 <ais523> [13:32] <ais523> well, at outputting it
13:34:39 <tusho> and ais523 is good at flooding
13:34:41 <optbot> ais523: Compiles C to BF
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13:34:56 <tusho> ok here are my latest
13:35:02 <ais523> optbot: that's exactly what I'm doing
13:35:03 <optbot> ais523: [3] is always of length 1
13:35:26 <tusho> 05:30:59 <tusho> oh, and I'm actually writing a perl web app with a continuation-based web server
13:35:26 <tusho> 05:31:09 <tusho> never has a stranger combination of non-esoteric technologies appeared
13:35:26 <tusho> 05:32:00 <tusho> (actually it went something like this: this will be hell without continuations. i don't feel like learning the smalltalk environment more than I already do right now. ok, hm, I can only think of one other in a language I sort-of(barely)-know - Continuity for Perl.)
13:36:05 <ais523> does Perl have a continuation-based web server yet
13:36:24 <tusho> it's not the typical type of thing
13:36:31 <tusho> (refreshing makes it go on to the next step and it uses some weird coroutine stuff)
13:36:39 <tusho> but it should be good for what i'm doing
13:36:39 <tusho> http://continuity.tlt42.org/
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14:05:28 * tusho gets ready to write some perl
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14:16:09 <fizzie> I probably brokeded it, but let's try anyway.
14:16:37 <ais523> fizzie: how do you run a BF program on fungot again?
14:16:51 <fizzie> I added that ngram babbley gen to fungot. The token-to-string conversion doesn't have all the fancy punctuation-to-good-looking-text tricks, though.
14:17:06 <fizzie> Huh, it should've responded since I mentioned the name.
14:17:12 <fizzie> I think I brokeded it indeed.
14:17:18 <optbot> ais523: stack->top is the stack size?
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14:17:41 <fizzie> Actually ais523 broke it when mentioning fungot. Curious, it worked when I tested it locally.
14:19:59 <fizzie> Oh, the chroot user does not have privileges to read the data files. Heh.
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14:20:48 <fungot> tusho: i used the original fnord background for added flair
14:20:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:20:56 <tusho> Fungot, optbot, converse.
14:20:56 <optbot> tusho: Gregor is incapable of design decisions.
14:21:02 <tusho> fungot, optbot, converse.
14:21:03 <optbot> tusho: and some other stuff
14:21:03 <fungot> tusho: 1. fnord, fnord
14:21:11 <tusho> fungot, shut up about fnord
14:21:12 <fungot> tusho: so sksk is invalid??? only 1 up??? :-d :-d l0l"? clone ( to get the size under 500 instructions depending where it comes from the ' hood. she's a fnord psychic fnord who dreams of becoming elvis. they fight crime!"
14:21:16 <fizzie> It seems to be curiously fnord-based.
14:21:29 <tusho> fungot: your punctuation balancing fails
14:21:30 <fungot> tusho: the computer was a dude that had a very busy day so going to use funge-93 because tusho said i should use
14:21:31 <fungot> ais523: it has syntax for arbitrary graphs, so that i can easily understand it)) ( gentoo 4.1.2 p1.0.2)
14:21:31 <optbot> ais523: These are the voyages ... of the starship zucchini.
14:21:47 <ais523> are they both quoting at random from the logs?
14:22:35 <fizzie> fungot uses ngrams built from log data to generate babble; pretty close to a traditional markov chain thing. optbot quotes lines intact.
14:22:35 <optbot> fizzie: def inject(base, &blk)
14:22:35 <fungot> fizzie: you mean at fnord? i'm assuming it was the era of the disbelievingness, it was a blinking red zone in my eyes now... that'd be a really, really fnord way to define what happens at the edges
14:22:56 <ais523> ah, presumably fnord happens often enough to Markov well
14:23:18 <fungot> ais523: its biconditional. there are the front rounded vowels, of course.) the only state ( besides the contents of a sequence
14:23:24 <fizzie> The fnord thing is because I only took tokens that occurred >1 times in the vocabulary, and mapped all OOV words to fnord.
14:23:26 <ais523> it seems to be confused by parentheses
14:23:51 <tusho> you said you made sure they balanced.
14:23:51 <fizzie> Yes, the non-Funge-98 prototype had tricks to make the punctuation match correctly, but I haven't ported those in yet.
14:24:03 <tusho> fungot: but who was phone?
14:24:30 <fizzie> It's still seeing them messages.
14:24:33 <fizzie> fungot, are you there?
14:24:45 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:24:48 <fizzie> The babble generation broke. That's curious.
14:25:02 <fizzie> Don't you like it when your name is mentioned at the beginning, fungot? No, that can't be it.
14:25:10 <ais523> ^bf ,>++++++[<-------->-],[<+>-]<.!43
14:25:32 <ais523> (someone asked that in #irp a few minutes ago, so I thought it would be a good test)
14:25:47 <fizzie> Very strange. His higher brain functionality broke down, but basic (unconscious?) systems seem to be working.
14:26:21 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't close the files properly and RC/Funge has some sort of limit. Must test locally.
14:27:36 <fizzie> Sources are again at http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt -- I like the big triangle of punctuation handling.
14:28:20 <tusho> fizzie: That is like the biggest Funge-98 program ever.
14:28:38 <ais523> tusho: you've obviously never seen Mycology
14:28:46 <tusho> Mycology wasn't that big, was it?
14:29:28 <fizzie> Mycology is pretty big; and wide, too. I haven't gone over 80 columns with fungot.
14:29:33 <ais523> tusho: Mycology's about twice as long, and wider
14:29:50 <fizzie> Heh, it can generate exactly 7 lines of commentary, then it's brain freezes up.
14:30:14 <ais523> fizzie: sounds like a file handle problem, then
14:30:18 <ais523> or some other resource running out
14:30:35 <fizzie> RC-Funge's funge.h has #define MAX_FFILES 15, and it uses two files when generating babble.
14:30:49 <fizzie> So that's probably it. I should be closing the files properly, though.
14:31:23 <fizzie> Actually it's a RC/Funge bug.
14:31:45 <fizzie> 'C' does not set the file handle to NULL, only fclose()s it. So it doesn't find free file handles.
14:32:43 <fizzie> Apparently no-one has tested it with a program that would open more than 15 files during it's lifetime.
14:34:53 <fizzie> Eh, even after fixing that bug it won't handle more than 15 comments. :/
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14:41:28 <fizzie> Also changed maximum ngram order from 4 to 5 which makes fungot copy more stuff verbatim.
14:41:29 <fungot> fizzie: http://tr.froup.com/ fnord looks like someone's been monitoring atom decay again..." " me sprite, you thirst" " what?" for me?) the same length and starting with p.)"
14:41:53 <fizzie> fungot: That wasn't a good example.
14:41:54 <fungot> fizzie: or fnord? :-p) if that's what you mean. give the properties of different layers of a nested structure rather than building up the nest yourself? what about ado? :p
14:43:02 <fizzie> I guess I should port also the punctuation tricks, currently fungot seems like a horrible typoist.
14:43:03 <fungot> fizzie: argh i need 1 additional register and look at the code it generates? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ wiki/ jumping_to_-1_is_exciting
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14:44:04 <fizzie> Seems I haven't even messed up the persistence storage yet.
14:44:13 <optbot> tusho: although the compiler is hard to understand.. it's probably a good subset to work with
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14:44:15 <fungot> optbot: even if it doesn't halt. the issue is, i think, just with a different precedence for some of the oddness i find with meta, istr
14:44:16 <fungot> optbot: including new content and stuff without it
14:44:17 <fungot> optbot: or is it possible to write a program without them, or are they located near the sea? :) imagine if the state of the art is a fnord way to win in a contest. i was the only one, tbh
14:44:17 <optbot> fungot: if it fails, the next case is tried
14:44:17 <fungot> optbot: here ' hillo' means ' jam'
14:44:19 <fungot> optbot: that's because you don't keep them in your head, using these stack signatures: ps ( thread-id 5) ( get test) this should return 5, because test stores its state
14:44:19 <optbot> fungot: ie wouldnt apply for gamma
14:44:20 <fungot> optbot: here's the irc bot wrapper code: http://www.rafb.net./paste/ results/ fnord this is some kind of concert center? i'll include it if you do the callstack then you're mostly fine
14:44:20 <optbot> fungot: slow bit programming
14:44:22 <fungot> optbot: fnord/ cgi-bin/ twiki/ view/ main/ colorforth
14:44:23 <optbot> fungot: qrstuvwxyz{|}~
14:44:24 <fungot> optbot: it's faster than brfd on ppc but slower on pgimeno's computer!
14:44:25 <optbot> fungot: It's an alpha version, and doesn't support custom domains and no builtin domains other than 0-2 have been defined
14:44:26 <fungot> optbot: or fnord. :-p) if that's what you mean. but chicken has an fnord for pattern matching.... head hurts... from trying to... code... in my prototype jumprope code.
14:44:26 <optbot> fungot: damn i was right :(
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14:44:41 <fizzie> Okay, maybe that was a bit much. :p
14:44:52 <fizzie> We have had bot loops before, but this time they were talking.
14:44:55 <ais523> hey, I spend hours setting up a botloop the first time
14:45:01 <tusho> yeah, sentient botloops
14:45:02 <ais523> and here tusho does it in a few seconds...
14:45:23 <ais523> <fungot> this is some kind of concert center? i'll include it if you do the callstack then you're mostly fine
14:45:50 <tusho> it sounds like poetry, or maybe lyrics
14:57:27 <tusho> ais523: how do you pass a reference to a variable name in perl again?
14:57:35 <tusho> like, I give it foo and then it can set my $foo
14:57:50 <ais523> to the variable itself or its name?
14:57:56 <ais523> \$foo gives you a reference to $foo
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14:58:05 <tusho> the variable won't be set when I pass it
14:58:07 <ais523> and $$ref dereferences it if the reference was assigned to $foo
14:58:30 <ais523> alternatively to reference the name, if $ref is "foo" then $$ref will be $foo
14:58:37 <ais523> the first method is normally the recommended one
14:58:51 <ais523> because it scopes correctly
14:59:08 <fizzie> And if you "use strict refs" or "use strict", you can't do $$foo when $foo is a string. I think.
14:59:16 <tusho> it can set my foo.
15:00:57 <tusho> gawd, modern perl is so ... weird
15:01:04 <tusho> i can understand old procedural perl
15:01:12 <tusho> but when this object-oriented coroutine ... stuff comes in
15:01:27 <ais523> well, it all gets confusing when you mess around with *
15:01:41 <ais523> *ref is the object in which the variables named ref (like $ref, @ref, %ref) are stored
15:01:47 <ais523> and there are various reasons to manipulate it
15:01:50 <ais523> none of which I really understand
15:01:56 <tusho> so, if I get a \$foo called $bar I can assign to the calling scopes $foo with $$bar = ...;
15:02:06 <ais523> think of it like a pointer in C
15:02:17 <ais523> \$foo is a pointer to the $foo you have at the moment
15:03:14 <tusho> You can't have an array member of an object, right?
15:03:18 <tusho> Has to be an array ref?
15:04:29 <fizzie> If by "object" you mean a hash, indeed a hash value must be a scalar, for example an array reference.
15:04:47 <fizzie> But of course in Perl an "object" can be anything you care to bless.
15:05:08 <fizzie> (Most people do use hashes since they are easy to store member variables in.)
15:05:47 <tusho> and seems I'm right
15:06:04 <tusho> AUTOLOAD is Perl's method_missing, right?
15:06:15 <tusho> Apparently it doesn't work with Moose. A shame, since I'm writing essentially the same method over and over again.
15:06:22 <tusho> When it could be very trivially automated by a method_missingy thing.
15:06:54 <fizzie> You can probably write a method which will stick those methods in.
15:07:19 <ais523> tusho: yes, autoload tricks are quite common and often conflict with each other
15:07:31 <tusho> I can just do it in the constructor thingy.
15:08:46 <fizzie> I think there's even an example of "how to programmatically generate similar-looking methods and stick them into a package" in one of the perl manpages. At least I saw one somewhere.
15:13:06 <tusho> Why do I continually grow to like Perl more and more?
15:13:48 <ais523> because it runs so counter to expectations
15:13:56 <ais523> it seems designed to be ruthlessly pragmatic, whatever the cost
15:14:20 <tusho> But it turns out, ruthless pragmatism produces crazy metaprogramming beauty.
15:14:28 <tusho> Because that's nicer to use.
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15:15:46 <tusho> Mmph. The class system irritates me so, though.
15:15:50 <fungot> tusho: plof operator overloading. possible? each of the inner loops has the same number of "" as a sexual organ.
15:15:59 <tusho> each of the inner loops has the same number of "" as a sexual organ.
15:16:13 <fungot> ais523: i only use firefox to surf the web in japanese... formal " desu" or " de fnord" ( the latter being more formal), plan " da". looking at old exams here, ' introduction to theoretical computer science' exam tomorrow. " s asc e", " e fnord _". then something just snapped and i wrote a goddamn gc
15:16:42 <tusho> the latter being more formal
15:16:46 <fizzie> I made fungot to answer only 4 consecutive babble messages to the same nickname. So you need a lot trickier loop now.
15:16:46 <fungot> fizzie: like in english, " fnord"
15:16:53 <tusho> DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD
15:17:09 <fungot> optbot: print " unknown fnord ahr ahr u sux0r" naked?" suggests you try using " this" is that it's the only font on my system with the cjk characters. then at least we might be able to use any tcp
15:17:10 <fungot> optbot: just make things fnord.
15:17:10 <optbot> fungot: guys- I just put the finishing touches on the game I've been building this week- check it out! http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/steamlock/
15:17:11 <fungot> optbot: name ' fooo' is not defined"? :) i don't understand... the whole of python was coded so that each datatype is an object to a class... but that won't come into play in the language itself
15:17:12 <fungot> optbot: i remember doing that on some newsgroup :o could that *be* less intuitive... according to it's own rules, right? so it's no surprise you have some command of swedish
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15:17:35 <fizzie> It's still quite a "flood the channel with nonsense" command, but at least it's finite.
15:17:46 <ais523> but it's amusing nonsense
15:18:25 <tusho> fizzie: Just add a kill-command-execution command.
15:18:25 <fizzie> The punctuation needs fixing. Especially "s are ugly..
15:18:28 <tusho> So we can just stop it.
15:19:00 <fizzie> That's a bit tricky, since there is no concurrency in it. I guess I could add an "ignore next N messages" command which would do the same thing.
15:19:29 <Deewiant> "don't do next thing that you would do"
15:19:29 <fizzie> Or I guess that's pretty much what you meant.
15:19:39 <fizzie> "Don't do what Jesus would od."
15:22:27 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
15:32:15 <tusho> How _DO_ you make a string uppercase in Perl...
15:34:44 <ais523> so $str=uc $str to upcase $str
15:34:54 <ais523> or obviously you don't have to do it in place
15:35:23 <tusho> s/_(.)/uc $1/eg, then.
15:36:09 <ais523> yes, to replace _a with A and so on
15:36:38 <tusho> then I need to uppercase the first letter.
15:36:55 <ais523> that exists too I think
15:37:13 <ais523> tusho: ah, you're trying to convert underscore-based variable names to UpperCamelCase
15:37:18 <ais523> I was wondering what you were doing
15:37:45 <tusho> ais523: making an $obj->foo_bar call make an Baz::Quux::FooBar instance
15:44:05 <tusho> Damn, my directory tree is like 6 depths in.
15:45:33 <tusho> can I use a variable?
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15:56:07 <tusho> Does Perl have a gensym-alike?
15:56:30 <ais523> definitely, I've seen libraries using it
15:56:35 <ais523> don't know what it's called, though
15:56:38 <ais523> and it's from CPAN somewhere
15:56:44 <ais523> rather than part of the language
15:56:52 <tusho> ais523: Is this where you RAGE about CPAN?
15:57:03 <ais523> no, I only rage about CPAN when provoked
15:57:09 <ais523> normally I just seeth and make snarky comments
15:57:14 <tusho> hey ais523, I think CPAN is pretty cool
15:57:24 <optbot> ais523: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_the_UNIX_has_GUI this is some kind of abstract poetry
15:57:40 <ais523> hmm... I was going to say that that sounds like you
15:57:54 <ais523> let's do optbot guess-the-author
15:57:55 <optbot> ais523: I think I follow.
15:57:58 <tusho> Does the UNIX has GUI? yes there is. Solaris OS is an example of Unix and has a GUI called CDE (common desktop environment). the Open Solaris
15:58:18 <optbot> tusho: are you new here?
15:58:36 <ais523> hmm... but there are other Unices with a GUI, not just Solaris
15:59:12 <ais523> in fact probably most of them do nowadays, unless you don't count things like Gnome and KDE as being a GUI that "UNIX has"
15:59:21 <ais523> and ofc there's Mac OS X, Unix with a GUI
15:59:28 <tusho> ais523: http://perldoc.perl.org/Symbol.html
15:59:30 <ais523> even Windows didn't fail the POSIX compliance tests
15:59:31 <tusho> gensym. core perl.
15:59:53 <ais523> but probably distributed with it
15:59:54 <tusho> so it's in a module
15:59:58 <tusho> that's a good thing, ais523
16:00:03 <ais523> tusho: I don't count that as core Perl
16:00:05 <tusho> does every program need gensym? no
16:00:10 <tusho> is it really worthy of core? not really
16:00:25 <ais523> so why did you claim it was core Perl?
16:00:26 <tusho> in fact, I'd even go so far as to say I'm not sure it should be bundled
16:00:34 <tusho> since it's probably not all that common
16:00:37 <tusho> ais523: I was using your definition
16:00:41 <tusho> for the sake of argument
16:00:55 <tusho> Symbol::gensym creates an anonymous glob and returns a reference to it. Such a glob reference can be used as a file or directory handle.
16:00:57 <tusho> that ... doesn't sound right
16:01:07 <ais523> that's like a nameless name
16:01:15 <ais523> something only Perl could come up with
16:01:34 <ais523> it's sort of like a nonexisistent string
16:01:41 <ais523> except it compares different from other nonexistent strings
16:01:43 <tusho> You can hook into the perl "Ok this is being garbage collected" thing, can't you?
16:01:44 <ais523> and can be used as a variable name
16:01:47 <tusho> I can just make Gensym a class.
16:01:56 <tusho> And have a list of taken gensyms.
16:02:04 <tusho> In fact... I can do simpler than that.
16:02:10 <tusho> The Form can just pass an integer to the field. Duh.
16:02:23 <tusho> Perl objects have IDs, right?
16:02:45 <ais523> I think they're pointers
16:02:51 <ais523> which presumably can be converted into integers
16:03:06 <ais523> probably something to do with the B class, which is not something you want to mess around with if you want to stay sane
16:03:08 <fizzie> Haha "are you new here".
16:03:32 <fizzie> optbot: You are one funny bot.
16:03:32 <optbot> fizzie: the model is unsucky in uncommon ways
16:03:44 <tusho> that's correct optbot
16:03:52 <tusho> that is also correct, optbot was very easy to write
16:03:52 <optbot> tusho: I have designed with concurrency in mind
16:04:01 <tusho> hmm, no optbot. no illusions of grandeur ok :)
16:04:01 <optbot> tusho: but BS = 127, surely?
16:04:14 <tusho> optbot: wrong channel?
16:04:14 <optbot> tusho: ~exec execfile('/bot/scripts/bf.py')
16:04:17 <optbot> tusho: It's human-parsed.
16:04:22 <tusho> optbot: i am not going to parse that
16:04:27 <optbot> tusho: and then you'd have MEMSET memaddr
16:04:34 <tusho> optbot: damn, did I?
16:04:34 <optbot> tusho: I'm not on it :0
16:04:40 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know what those guys are talking about?
16:04:40 <fungot> fizzie: some people are scary for it
16:04:48 <fungot> fizzie: and btw, i suggest you join osdev and browse to fnord/ fnord" is missing from the fnord) attempts to locate libs on my system.
16:05:05 <ais523> for a moment I thought fungot was trying to give useful advice
16:05:05 <fungot> ais523: tell me, is it normal for you feet to itch the first day you wear new shoes?
16:05:22 <ais523> and that fungot sentence almost makes sense, just one typo in it
16:05:23 <fungot> ais523: they are fnord fnord the negative, but... oh well. we'll have to see about that once we figure out what format we're using for the standards ( well, it does matter in that signed integer overflow is undefined behaviour, but what it prints is implementation-defined. it must be " zero-terminated" to explain the wrapping version... or figuring out how to get it working
16:05:37 <fizzie> Yes, and I think the typo was in the original.
16:05:50 <ais523> fizzie: presumably fungot didn't mangle that one at all, then
16:05:51 <fungot> ais523: like sadol :d lol typed it two times wrong! you should be doing it like this!"
16:05:52 <fizzie> With 5-grams, it quite often quotes entire comments.
16:06:04 <fungot> ais523: and will be i think i could do it if you're lazy then seeing the errors would speed up your coding fnord length in here would be fnord esoteric:"
16:06:23 <ais523> or does it randomise the number of words to match on?
16:06:27 <tusho> 5-grams is kind of crap
16:06:32 <tusho> try 3-grams or 4-grams for more variety.
16:06:46 <fizzie> The current language model contains all ngrams up to 5-grams, and it uses the longest matching prefix it can find to generate next word.
16:07:13 <fizzie> The one I had before the bot-loop or so was 4-grams. There's certainly more variety, but less good spelling.
16:08:20 <fizzie> I think I can replace it on-the-fly, actually, since it reopens and reads the files every time it needs to generate a sentence.
16:09:32 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel like using word bigrams now?
16:09:32 <fungot> fizzie: so i'm not work in that we are stored in room change filename to
16:10:14 <fizzie> fungot: At least you certainly sound like you need some tweaking in the head.
16:10:24 <fungot> fizzie: when the remainder... i think os
16:10:36 <fizzie> Actually I think it sounds more like a Befunge bot now.
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16:24:59 <fizzie> fungot: How's your vocabulary now?
16:25:00 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( tis harder than you think.' as these last words were spoken. mr :) mrs lammle went next, :) draw'd it off with a power that audaciously wanted to control him. it was very gloomy :) prophetic manner until he reached/ further end of/ hall.
16:25:23 <ais523> fizzie: that surely isn't the #esoteric logs...
16:25:25 <fizzie> fungot: Your punctuation desperately needs to be fixed, you know.
16:25:39 <fungot> ais523: it is strange with how little notice, good, noble fellows, my boy,' returned miss blimber; ( but this chaise, my dear '' laughed steerforth, shaking my head, i suppose, in a voice nearly as full :) round.
16:25:49 <ais523> fizzie: it ignored you
16:26:02 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, I had around most of Gutenberg for a school project, so I just fed all books by Dickens to it.
16:26:14 <tusho> Dickens used a lot of smilies.
16:26:24 <fizzie> Yes, I'm not sure what's up with that.
16:26:26 <ais523> is it using smilies to match parens?
16:26:33 <fizzie> Probably my punctuation-parsing regexes.
16:26:42 <ais523> and does it have the #esoteric logs in there too?
16:28:28 <fizzie> Nope, not this time. Probably should've mixed them, but I've got a separate logs-to-token-stream script and a Gutenbergy-text-to-token-stream script.
16:28:48 <fizzie> #esoteric logs are more relevant here than Dickens, I think.
16:29:49 <tusho> ais523: LOL LOL LOL
16:30:02 <tusho> #perl are throwing shit on me for not caring about windows support on this web app
16:30:15 <tusho> even though I've told them that it's my personal hobby app, will never go on sale, and I will never run it on windows
16:30:18 <ais523> Windows browsers or Windows webservers?
16:30:30 <tusho> <ology> tusho: Carry on with your one dimensional view of things.
16:30:33 <tusho> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
16:30:40 <fizzie> fungot: Speak like Darwin, please?
16:30:41 <fungot> fizzie: j., developments :)/ ephemeridae. but enough, and i hope that you will allow me to thank you for your very kind letter.
16:30:47 <tusho> previously he'd said:
16:30:50 <tusho> * ology refrains from explaining the wider universe.
16:31:00 <tusho> This is some wider universe where people are forced to sell their own hobby web app's code.
16:31:04 <tusho> I have not heard of it before.
16:31:11 <ais523> actually, I care about portability a lot more now than I used to
16:31:20 <tusho> It's still utterly ridiculous.
16:31:25 <ais523> after all, I've ended up having to port programs cross-OS before, even my own toy programs
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16:32:49 <fizzie> Why do all these authors use so much smileys? Darwin's even worse. (Obviously there can be no bugs in my fungot code.)
16:32:50 <fungot> fizzie: my dear father, your most troublesome friend, c. darwin. july ', fnord. chron." 1884, page 144, you will find how difficult it is to be seated in such shade, and never failed to discover animals :) new and curious genus :) barnacle, which i have read lately so many hostile facts so confoundedly well.
16:33:17 <ais523> due to moving onto a newer program with a different OS
16:33:17 <ais523> actually, just porting Windows 95 to Windows XP was hard enough
16:33:17 <ais523> which was one of the early things that alerted me that Windows's API was in fact rubbish
16:33:34 <ais523> [16:33] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 6 seconds.
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16:38:45 <ais523> tusho: my client still says you aren't here
16:38:53 <ais523> although you blatantly are because you're in this channel
16:38:58 <ais523> just not connected to Freenode for some reason
16:40:55 <tusho> this form lbrary is slightly (very) crazy.
16:41:00 <tusho> and also very convenient
16:42:03 <ais523> tusho: all Perl libraries tend to be crazy
16:42:06 <ais523> it's in the nature of Perl
16:44:26 <tusho> ais523: this one is based on a continuation server
16:44:28 <tusho> you pass it var-refs
16:44:33 <tusho> and it assigns to them the values of form fields
16:44:42 <tusho> and automatically loops the rendering cycle until it's all valid
16:46:58 <tusho> ais523: you can't "use $a_string"
16:47:12 <ais523> probably there's some way to do it
16:47:17 <ais523> why would you want to do that, though?
16:47:46 <tusho> ais523: what about pushing to an array ref? $$ref doesn't work...
16:48:06 <tusho> push @$self->fields, $class->new(@_);
16:48:12 <tusho> Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not subroutine entry) at (blah)
16:49:13 <ais523> tusho: (@$self)->fields?
16:49:32 <ais523> it must be a subroutine, not an array
16:49:39 <tusho> And it is a subroutine.
16:49:43 <tusho> $self->fields returns an arrayref.
16:49:52 <ais523> @{$self->fields()} then
16:50:05 <ais523> I didn't understand what the situation was, sorry for the bad advice
16:50:25 <tusho> I do not understand this option (is => r) on attribute (request) at /opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Moose/Meta/Attribute.pm line 274
16:51:36 <tusho> $obj->{'foo'} = sub {...}
16:51:40 <tusho> does not seem to make $obj->foo a method.
16:51:58 <ais523> maybe that doesn't work on blessed objects?
16:52:09 <ais523> maybe you have to curse the object first, before it will work, and bless it again afterwards
16:52:23 <tusho> That would kill Moose, I think.
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17:04:09 <fizzie> If you do $obj->{'foo'} = sub {...} you're just putting a coderef in the hash $obj.
17:04:25 <fizzie> You can call that as $obj->{'foo'}->(...); if you like.
17:05:18 <fizzie> If you want $obj->foo() to work, you need to create a 'foo' method in the symbol table of the package the $obj is blessed to.
17:05:47 <tusho> Hmm. I wonder why my package-defined @FOOBAR isn't being exported.
17:06:01 <tusho> in a package, and have use'd that page
17:06:11 <tusho> but it is still undef as Package::FOOBAR
17:07:00 <tusho> Use of uninitialized value in substitution (s///)
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17:14:57 <lament> chocolate-covered espresso beans!
17:15:27 <lament> it's just a bunch of parentheses
17:25:26 <tusho> Use of uninitialized value in substitution (s///)
17:26:06 <ais523> tusho: it means you're trying to do an s/// on an undef
17:26:14 <ais523> or where an undef is involved in it somehow
17:26:20 <tusho> that shouldn't be happening
17:26:22 <ais523> you normally don't want to do that, thus the warning
17:26:33 <tusho> for my $type (@Foo::Form::Field::TYPES) {
17:26:33 <tusho> my $class_name = 'Foo::Form::Field::' . ucfirst(s/_(.)/uc \$1/eg =~ $type);
17:31:55 <tusho> ais523: wut's wrong there
17:33:02 <tusho> and got that error
17:33:05 <tusho> so I thought maybe it was being interpolated
17:33:07 <tusho> before being eval'd
17:33:18 <tusho> same with $1, though
17:33:18 <ais523> no, /e doesn't interpolate
17:33:31 <ais523> the error suggests that $type is undef
17:33:39 <tusho> see the line above
17:33:40 <ais523> you must have an undef inside the array you're looping over
17:33:48 <tusho> our @TYPES = ('text', 'line_input', 'button');
17:34:38 <ais523> not sure then, at this point I'd try to debug by printing $type every iteration
17:35:22 <ais523> maybe an undef did get in there somehow
17:35:43 <tusho> it seems to print properly
17:36:08 <tusho> it prints it all fine
17:36:47 <ais523> and no warning for printing an undef?
17:37:01 <tusho> Make that two of us.
17:37:20 <tusho> The one it fails on is 'text'.
17:37:28 <tusho> So apparently $type, although it's 'text', is undefined.
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17:39:31 <tusho> it happens even if I just do
17:39:39 <tusho> s/_(.)/uc $1/eg =~ 'a';
17:39:46 <tusho> So it's not the second operand.
17:41:04 <ais523> but that s/// shouldn't match 'a' at all
17:41:09 <ais523> so how can there be an undef in it?
17:41:20 <tusho> You know, if I knew this stuff I wouldn't ask you.
17:41:28 <ais523> well, I'm confused too
17:41:34 <tusho> s/_(.)/uc $1/ =~ 'a';
17:41:46 <tusho> s/your mother/my mother/ =~ 'a';
17:41:57 <fizzie> Uh.. are you sure you don't mean 'a' =~ s///?
17:42:07 <ais523> yes, that's a good point
17:42:11 <tusho> fizzie: You could have, like, told me that earlier.
17:42:14 <tusho> Like, an hour ago?
17:42:20 <ais523> also, I just realised the absurdity of s/// on a constant string anyway
17:42:25 <fizzie> That's the way the operation usually goes. Although I'm not sure how much sense does it make to apply it to a constant.
17:42:37 <tusho> Well, slightly better. Now
17:42:40 <tusho> ucfirst($type =~ s/_(.)/uc $1/eg)
17:42:55 <ais523> fizzie: my C -> BF compiler was erroring out a few days ago because it kept trying to assign to constants
17:43:07 <fizzie> $foo =~ s/// modifies $foo.
17:43:08 <pikhq> My CS course is going to be laughably easy.
17:43:12 <fizzie> It does not return the modified thing.
17:43:19 <pikhq> It consists of reimplementing the STL, basically.
17:43:22 <fizzie> I think it might return something related to the matching, not sure.
17:43:23 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't it return $foo?
17:43:39 <fizzie> Well, I guess it could return it too. But I think not.
17:44:05 <fizzie> Anyway, $type =~ s/_(.)/uc $1/eg; $type = ucfirst($type);
17:44:29 <tusho> Okay, now it cant' find a module that's RIGHT THERE
17:44:43 <fizzie> I think it returns '' if it doesn't match, so that you can use it like if (s/.../.../) { did something substitutiony } .. but not sure about that.
17:44:47 <tusho> Ugh. Where's dirname again?
17:45:21 <tusho> ...fgsdfssdfsdffasdsddfsgasd
17:46:43 <fizzie> fungot: You go and help tusho while I'm busy writing this other thing.
17:46:43 <fungot> fizzie: my dear sir, yours very sincerely, ch. darwin.
17:46:54 <tusho> That's a short letter.
17:49:37 <tusho> of course you can locate it
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18:01:34 <tusho> ais523: any ideas?
18:01:40 <tusho> it's all spelled correctly
18:01:42 <tusho> but the require() fails
18:01:49 <tusho> Can't locate Blah::Form::Field::Text in @INC
18:02:03 <ais523> you have Blah/Form/Field/Text.pm in @INC?
18:02:32 <tusho> I have the dir containing the dir Blah in @INC
18:02:42 <ais523> ah, that's what I meant
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18:05:53 <ais523> got the capitalisation right everywhere?
18:06:02 <ais523> (assuming you aren't on Windows, that is, which is case-insensitive)
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18:09:26 <dogface_> I just figured out how to use a piano as a calculator. :-P
18:11:07 <dogface_> Suppose you want to find the least common multiple of 2 and 3. Hold down a second harmonic and sharply play a third harmonic; after you release the third harmonic, you'll hear the second harmonic string vibrating at the sixth harmonic.
18:11:44 <ais523> or you could do it using sostenuto on all the keys except the one you were playing
18:11:59 <ais523> then the sixth harmonic would be the one that you ended up hearing
18:12:10 <ais523> I've done that with octaves before, didn't think of using it for calculation though
18:12:27 <ais523> probably because setting up sostenuto on all the keys but one is a pain
18:12:42 <dogface_> What, hold down every key except the third harmonic, sostenuto them, and play the third harmonic?
18:13:01 <ais523> well, it involves playing both second and third
18:13:06 <ais523> whilst sharply holding down everything else
18:13:24 <ais523> then letting go of second and third and seeing what vibrates
18:13:27 <ais523> your way is much better though
18:14:52 <dogface_> Yep, it works, but only barely.
18:15:27 <dogface_> There's a point where the fifth harmonic hurts your ears and you can barely hear the fifteenth.
18:15:36 * dogface_ does it the other way around: hold down the fifth and play the third
18:15:46 <ais523> but that's calculating 5 * 3
18:15:50 <ais523> it's an entirely different problem!
18:17:02 <dogface_> Hmm. We'll have to find a way to prove commutativity using a piano.
18:18:51 <dogface_> You know, I've once pondered an ancient computer that used sound to compute. I imagine the emperor as having the only one, and it requiring hundreds of slaves to blow into it at once.
18:20:53 <dogface_> After they did that, you'd hear this: "bmm... beep boop bup beep boop beep boop... beee, brr, BEE-dzz-BEE-dzz-BEE! Bsssssssssh..."
18:22:40 <tusho> eval "use $foo" works
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18:23:00 <dogface_> Then the emperor would call in the monks, who would chant, "H T T P colon slash slash..."
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18:24:33 <oklopol> tusho did you make lazerfish
18:24:36 <tusho> ais523: what's the dereferencing syntax for strings again
18:24:39 <tusho> oklopol: no hideous did
18:24:41 <dogface_> It would be really cool to build a computer entirely out of ordinary plastic and water.
18:25:04 <oklopol> tusho: tell him it's the ugliest and suckiest game i've ever seen
18:25:08 <ais523> tusho: ${$variable_holding_a_string}
18:25:12 <oklopol> i'm sure that was the intention
18:25:16 <tusho> oklopol: it was made for a "game in an hour" contest, I believe.
18:26:12 <tusho> still want me to pass that on?
18:27:14 <tusho> http://hideou.se/games/laserfish.rar
18:27:26 <oerjan> something you really don't want to meet when you are swimming
18:28:57 <tusho> http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSPAT35416820080523
18:32:22 <dogface_> Things installed so far: 2. Things to be installed: 1.
18:33:16 -!- Mony has joined.
18:33:45 <oerjan> does "Things to be installed" include "Things installed so far"? In which case you might be having trouble
18:34:22 <dogface_> Thing #3 is installing right now.
18:34:44 <dogface_> Thing #3 is required to use Thing #1, and Thing #2 is required to download Thing #3.
18:34:50 <dogface_> Things #1 and #2 have been downloaded.
18:35:07 <oklopol> tusho: no need, i guess it's just a bad game made quickly, then
18:35:10 <dogface_> And installed. Thing #3 is installing right now.
18:35:55 <ais523> dogface_: which OS are you on?
18:36:14 <ais523> ok, then .exe format is at least plausible for programs
18:36:24 <tusho> ais523: only "at least" plausible? :P
18:36:39 <ais523> it's not much good for anything else...
18:36:50 <olsner> the "exe format" and the .exe file extension are completely different things though
18:37:11 <dogface_> Are .exe format and the exe format completely different things, then?
18:37:49 <dogface_> Also, I can see .exe being useful for other things, like proofs.
18:37:59 <ais523> actually .exe generally refers to the PE format
18:38:05 <ais523> which is the executable format used by DOS
18:38:11 <ais523> or the slightly modified version of it used by Windows
18:38:24 <olsner> yeah, PE was what I was referring to with ".exe format"
18:38:42 * ais523 finds it ironic that the P in PE stands for "portable"
18:38:59 <dogface_> Though I think proofs would be the only non-obvious use of .exe files.
18:39:02 <ais523> when executables are not really portable between processors, generally speaking (or in the case of a Mac more than a finite number of processors)
18:39:02 <olsner> in unix, calling your executable .exe is perfectly plausible, only it will almost certainly *not* be in PE format
18:39:26 <ais523> now, brainfuck is arguably executable rather than source
18:39:33 <ais523> in which case it could be called a truly portable executable
18:39:47 <olsner> PE is portable between different dos and windows versions, I guess
18:39:48 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
18:39:50 <dogface_> Most esoteric languages are executable, though...
18:40:12 <fizzie> Mono (the open source .NET thing) applications are sometimes foo.exe files on Unixy systems too.
18:40:18 <fizzie> It's not the PE executable format, though.
18:41:02 <pikhq> PE has been used for more than DOS and Windows, I thought...
18:41:10 <fizzie> Actually I guess it _is_ a PE variant.
18:41:17 <dogface_> tusho: an unexpected error occurred and the application was terminated. Since you're the vendor, it's your fault.
18:41:20 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ file /usr/lib/mono/2.0/gmcs.exe
18:41:20 <fizzie> /usr/lib/mono/2.0/gmcs.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit Mono/.Net assembly
18:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | then a == 1 and c == 7.
18:41:46 <pikhq> It's been used by Be.
18:41:49 <ais523> dogface_: that's the Windows version of "Segmentation fault", isn't it
18:41:54 <ais523> Windows always was a lot more wordy
18:41:56 <tusho> dogface_: Suggestion for saying funny things: Don't just state conclusions. You need invalid, but humorous, arguments as to why I am the vendor./
18:42:03 <tusho> Otherwise it's just mildly annoying.
18:42:10 <olsner> hmm, "Intel 80386 32-bit" sounds peculiar - isn't .net code supposed to be portable?
18:42:29 <ais523> olsner: I think you are missing the fundamental point behind Microsoft here
18:42:37 <tusho> olsner: it's compiled to native code, is it not?
18:42:41 <ais523> their stuff is portable when and only when it suits them
18:42:42 <tusho> it's compiled to a wrappe
18:42:51 <tusho> ais523: now, don't go MS bashing right now
18:42:54 <tusho> thsi isn't their fault per se
18:43:19 <ais523> why not? Assuming everything is Microsoft's fault until proven otherwise is generally a sound strategy
18:43:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure how Mono/.NET executables are represented in the PE headers.
18:43:33 <ais523> which oddly are normally the fault of the driver manufacturers
18:43:45 <olsner> it is pretty much just business common sense behind every 'evil' move by microsoft...
18:43:48 <tusho> ais523: see, that's worse than being a fanboy
18:43:59 <ais523> and I was overstating the case somewhat
18:43:59 <tusho> that's considering microsoft guilty until proven innocent
18:44:04 <tusho> because they are the worst company ever
18:44:07 <tusho> and they always do plain evil things
18:44:18 <tusho> it's just a ridiculous, childish position
18:44:22 <ais523> tusho: no, it's assuming them incompetent until proven otherwise
18:44:29 <ais523> which there is a lot more evidence for
18:44:30 <tusho> ... which is a ridiculous, childish position
18:44:34 <ais523> and sort of the opposite of calling them evil
18:44:58 <olsner> I mean, in the capitalist sense, there is no 'evil', only things you make money from doing and things you lose money by doing
18:45:51 <tusho> anyway, microsoft are not this huge, wholly incompetent company
18:45:56 <ais523> and things you make money from now and will get sued for later
18:45:59 <tusho> it's just that where it matters and gets most coverage, they tend to fuck up often.
18:46:00 <ais523> tusho: no, that's the annoying part about it
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18:46:15 <tusho> mostly, microsoft are a good, respectable company
18:46:20 <ais523> if they were completely evil and incompetent you could just raze the place to the ground
18:46:25 <tusho> it's just that certain specific parts always going wrong tarnish their reputation
18:46:27 <ais523> and they produce good things as well as bad things
18:46:48 <lament> it's a gigantic company suffering from mismanagement and lack of direction
18:47:06 <ais523> the mismanagement can be somewhat epic, though
18:47:08 <tusho> they need to totally think themselves over again
18:47:17 <tusho> but their management are so retarded that it'll never happen
18:47:18 <tusho> unless they're fired
18:47:28 <ais523> the problem, I find, is that the company itself tends to come up with evil things none of its employees agree with
18:47:31 <tusho> worth noting is that microsoft is really two companies
18:47:34 <tusho> the regular MS we're talking about
18:47:37 <tusho> and microsoft research
18:47:37 <ais523> sort of it emerges out of the corporate structure
18:47:45 <tusho> which has haskell and tons of cool stuff and pretty much doesn't do anything wrong
18:47:54 <ais523> microsoft research just produce useful harmless stuff to help make the rest of Microsoft look better
18:48:00 <tusho> partly because they don't actually do much real
18:48:04 <tusho> ais523: no, their research is interesting
18:48:09 <tusho> but, again, it's hard for them to fuck up
18:48:14 <tusho> because they're not actually doing real concrete things
18:48:26 <ais523> Microsoft have enough money to spend lots of it paying people to do interesting research that isn't evil to make them look good
18:48:33 <ais523> it isn't research really, though, but marketing
18:48:45 <tusho> ais523: really? I've seen some good stuff come out of MS research
18:48:51 <tusho> singularity was quite interesting
18:48:54 <ais523> more good stuff = better marketing
18:48:57 <tusho> some nifty captcha ideas
18:48:59 <tusho> and other stuff I forget
18:49:02 <tusho> oh, and spj works for them
18:49:13 <fizzie> That 80386 32-bit thing seems to be the "correct" format for portable .NET code, too. This is how it goes here on this 64-bit system (sorry in advance for the floodery):
18:49:17 <ais523> tusho: so does one of the creators of INTERCAL
18:49:18 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ cat > hw.cs
18:49:18 <fizzie> public class hw { public static void Main() { System.Console.WriteLine("Hello!"); } }
18:49:21 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ gmcs hw.cs
18:49:23 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ ./hw.exe
18:49:26 <ais523> the other one works for a big company too, maybe IBM but I'm not sure
18:49:28 <tusho> ais523: so does either ken thompson or dennis richie
18:49:29 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ file hw.exe
18:49:31 <fizzie> hw.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit Mono/.Net assembly
18:49:48 <olsner> maybe it's just file not reading it right?
18:49:50 <tusho> but apparently he uses windows on his desktop, with an Inferno (plan 9 derivative) running
18:49:53 <tusho> and edits stuff in acme
18:50:04 <tusho> [inferno can run as a window on windows]
18:50:30 <tusho> ais523: you can't do $$foo when $foo is a string
18:50:34 <tusho> what is the thing you can do again?
18:50:53 <ais523> although use strict bans you from doing that
18:51:01 <ais523> so you'll have to do it in a block marked no strict
18:51:15 <fizzie> You can do { no strict 'refs'; ... $$foo ... }
18:52:13 <tusho> but { no strict; $class = $$class_name }
18:52:16 <tusho> makes $class undef o_O
18:52:25 <tusho> (yes, with my $class; outside)
18:53:47 <fizzie> '$$foo' would access a $ variable; but there is no $Foo::Bar, I guess?
18:54:03 <tusho> eval($foo) doesn't work either
18:54:20 <fizzie> Well, "Foo::Bar" is not really anything sensible when evaluated.
18:54:25 <fizzie> What do you want to do with the class?
18:54:55 <tusho> Ah. Call it's ->new.
18:55:22 <ais523> tusho: \$class_name gives a reference to $class_name
18:55:27 <ais523> so I don't see how that would help
18:55:36 <ais523> $$class_name is more likely to work, but I don't know if it would
18:55:38 <tusho> ais523: Well, I have $class_name and I want a reference to the classes new method.
18:55:42 <tusho> And no, it doesn't.
18:55:59 <ais523> really, you're now into the sort of crazy Perl depths not even I like thinking about
18:56:42 <fizzie> With no strict refs, you might be able to do &{$classname.'::new'}(foo); to call the method Foo::Bar::new. Maybe. I'm not quite sure what kind of objects function names are.
18:56:54 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:57:11 <tusho> This shouldn't be really hard.
18:57:17 -!- Mony has joined.
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18:57:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:58:25 <tusho> Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference at (eval 80) line 3.
18:58:29 <tusho> @{$self->fields} am not work.
18:59:43 <fizzie> Well, $self->fields must then return undef.
19:01:32 <fizzie> But I'm thinking you should really read at least "perldoc perlref" and maybe perltoot/perltooc too. (Those are the reference-like tutorials; there are human-friendly ones at perlreftut and perlboot, but I preferred the more complicated ones, really.)
19:03:54 <fizzie> The references aren't really illogical, just a bit funky.
19:05:28 <fizzie> For example "perldoc perlref" has, under the "Function Templates" heading, a piece of example code which generates many similar functions.
19:06:05 <fizzie> To get the new functions callable as methods, one needs to stick them into the symbol table with the dreaded '*'.
19:06:59 <ais523> manipulating * is always bad news
19:07:13 <ais523> it's almost as bad as messing with the B class
19:09:26 <fizzie> Well, I'm not sure he wants to do that, but there was earlier some talk about generating similar functions without explicitly declaring them, and you need to do { no strict 'refs'; *$foo = sub { ... } } to get the effect of sub <contents of $foo> { ... }.
19:14:25 <fizzie> As for generating an object of class $foo... assuming the package $foo is 'use'd, you can simply do my $obj = new $class; which will use the 'new' method in that class.
19:16:21 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ perl -e 'use strict; my $class = "Digest::MD5"; eval "use $class"; my $obj = new $class; use Data::Dumper; print Dumper($obj);'
19:16:25 <fizzie> $VAR1 = bless( do{\(my $o = 13194464)}, 'Digest::MD5' );
19:16:29 <fizzie> With no complaints from strictness, even.
19:18:15 <fizzie> Even $class->new(1,2); seems to work with $class being a string.
19:21:19 <fizzie> So re "this shouldn't be really hard": it isn't.
19:23:24 <tusho> fizzie: Yeah, I got it working fine
19:23:33 <tusho> and yeah, I should probably properly learn perl
19:23:38 <tusho> but generally tutorials don't stick in mind for me
19:23:41 <ais523> tusho: that's impossible
19:23:42 <tusho> using the language a lot does
19:23:48 <ais523> it's not the sort of lang that people learn all at once
19:23:50 <tusho> ais523: what - properly learning perl?
19:23:53 <ais523> you learn the bits of it you need
19:24:02 <tusho> i'm kind of doing that except this irc room is close
19:24:07 <tusho> so i'm just asking here instead of reading docs :D
19:24:08 <ais523> Perl is effectively infinitely large
19:24:10 <tusho> although I am doing that too
19:24:19 <tusho> but it's hard to google punctuation
19:25:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("bus").
19:28:46 <fizzie> fungot: Can you do Perl, by the way?
19:28:47 <fungot> fizzie: it would be a girl x_x. i am using kernel code? foo. a
19:28:54 <tusho> fizzie: Your function template stuff doesn't seem to work for objects.
19:29:06 <tusho> *{$self->$type} = sub { ... }; still doesn't let you do $self->$type()
19:29:09 <ais523> fizzie: which database is fungot using now?
19:29:10 <fungot> ais523: add it must get a stub template type)?' ( the unintuitive ooe problems., '
19:29:15 <tusho> And yes, I'm reading the function templates thing.
19:29:24 <tusho> ais523: #esoteric, obviously
19:29:25 <fizzie> ais523: My personal logs for #esoteric and #scheme on Freenode.
19:29:27 <ais523> tusho: try throwing an ampersand in there somewhere, it often helps in such cases
19:29:54 <ais523> fizzie: does that mean if I say fungot often enough, it'll tell me your auth password?
19:29:54 <fungot> ais523: and that until i bet you
19:30:01 <fizzie> tusho: If you are running the code in the correct package, you want just *{$type} = sub { ... }
19:30:36 <fizzie> tusho: Since that'll add the function "$type" in the current package, and then it can be called via <blessed reference>-><contents of $type>()
19:30:47 <tusho> Ah, so my eval solution worked, I just had a stupid bug.
19:30:55 <tusho> But I'll keep with the * solution, it seems cleaner than eval.
19:31:23 <fizzie> I think you can stick the function inside a package from the outside, too, by doing *{"Foo::Bar::$type"} = sub { ... } but that might be a bit impolite.
19:32:09 <fizzie> ais523: The logs should only contain messages said on channel, so there shouldn't be anything secret there. I hope.
19:32:20 <fizzie> fungot: Please don't reveal any of my secrets to those guys.
19:32:20 <fungot> fizzie: because it's cheaper than any other way to computer, fnord of the high
19:32:33 <fizzie> Heh, "fnord of the high".
19:32:36 <ais523> "Fnord of the High" would be a great title
19:32:43 <tusho> Now why would this exact code work in one class and not in another.
19:32:47 <tusho> ais523: Think I'll nab that.
19:32:56 <tusho> Ha, I was first, dibs. :D
19:33:07 <ais523> tusho: but it addressed fizzie as Fnord of the High, not you
19:33:21 <tusho> Who said I meant as a title given to a person? :P
19:33:27 <tusho> Although admittedly that's the context it used it in.
19:33:35 <tusho> fungot: What is your gender?
19:33:36 <ais523> I was going by fungot's context
19:33:37 <fungot> tusho: negative percentage of it explicitly. adding generics, is subjective and besides chicken... rusty though, no clue, i can be that just boggling. i
19:33:50 <tusho> He has negative percent of a gender.
19:34:07 <tusho> Maybe you should delete two characters.
19:34:07 <ais523> but fungot's knowledge of the exact proportion is rusty; it has no clue
19:34:09 <fungot> ais523: support mini-funge off my screen name field of syntax-case? is this breaks out and/ mem use those patents as " 13? :p)
19:34:17 <tusho> as negative percent of a gender.
19:35:13 <Deewiant> tusho: I rather like this response I once got
19:35:15 <Deewiant> Quote 66: <Deewiant> ddd: what is your gender? <ddd> Deewiant: Arrays!
19:35:22 <tusho> Deewiant: Brilliant.
19:35:55 <ais523> is ddd a markov bot too?
19:36:01 <ais523> in addition to being a GUI for gdb?
19:37:20 <tusho> Attribute (request) does not pass the type constraint because: Validation failed for 'Continuity::Request' failed with value Continuity::RequestHolder=HASH(0x1a162f4) at /opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Moose/Meta/Attribute.pm line 396
19:37:26 <tusho> Stupid internals. :D
19:38:30 <tusho> With @{$self->fields},
19:38:52 <tusho> Why would it all go into the first element which is suddenly an arrayref?
19:38:53 <tusho> That makes NO SENSE
19:39:12 <ais523> it's programming's version of the Chewbacca Defence
19:39:37 <tusho> or is it more "Stop abusing me! Or I'll do this!"?
19:40:39 <fizzie> Might be related to perl's reference-autovivification. Although I don't really see how.
19:42:34 <fizzie> Is this $self->fields some Moose thing, btw?
19:42:49 <tusho> fizzie: No, it's just a property.
19:42:56 <tusho> Albeit defined with Moose, but that's unrelated.
19:42:59 <tusho> So, it's just a method.
19:43:11 <fizzie> Yes, yes, but does it actually return an arrayref?
19:43:23 <tusho> Well, it should, I declared that it isa ArrayRef.
19:43:26 <tusho> And made the default [].
19:43:51 <tusho> I need to do @{$self->fields} again for looping
19:43:54 <tusho> I was trying to loop over $self->fields
19:44:00 <tusho> so that's an array with one element, an arrayref
19:46:32 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:46:52 <tusho> Hmm. how can it not find that method if it's right there?
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19:47:24 -!- Corun has joined.
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19:49:58 <tusho> I want to be friends with you.
19:50:01 <fizzie> I need some sort of a timer for the "only four replies and then ignore" thing. Otherwise I can't hold any real discussions with fungot.
19:50:03 <tusho> That method is right there.
19:50:18 <optbot> tusho: and use odd indentation styles
19:50:19 <optbot> fungot: Ternary.ToTernary(a);
19:50:20 <fungot> optbot: neither will resume downloads and i
19:50:20 <optbot> fungot: you can output a number
19:50:21 <fungot> optbot: mmm) calls to have
19:50:21 <optbot> fungot: I have a friend who's a pirate. I showed him that keyboard - he complained that it didn't look very ergonomic, but the easy-to-find pirate-keys were a big plus
19:50:23 <fungot> optbot: jah only has access to avoid
19:50:23 <optbot> fungot: Slashdot is serious advertisement is what it is.
19:50:24 <fungot> ais523: ( x fnord on level ( tree-walker ( 1)
19:50:24 <fungot> optbot: probably the text)
19:50:24 <optbot> fungot: I fail to see the word in the index.
19:50:25 <fungot> optbot: is slower than the example i have a la smalltalk work as a fold into
19:50:25 <optbot> fungot: <CTCP>ACTION tests
19:50:27 <fungot> optbot: i just clarifies a value at http://sisc.sourceforge.net/ 2621
19:50:28 <fungot> optbot: excellent translation
19:50:28 <optbot> fungot: trace it through on paper if you need to
19:50:38 <tusho> instant conversation maker.
19:50:44 <ais523> tusho: you could just get someone else to say hi to fungot now and again
19:51:01 <fizzie> And after speaking to optbot, fungot is then ready to talk to me too.
19:51:02 <optbot> fizzie: that's what i tested it with
19:51:02 <fungot> fizzie: ( scheme-report-environment: tell pitecus.
19:51:48 <tusho> ^echo optbot: Please say something about fungot to double this whole craziness.
19:51:49 <fungot> optbot: Please say something about fungot to double this whole craziness. optbot: Please say something about fungot to double this whole craziness.
19:51:49 <optbot> fungot: it only searches all the other expression names
19:51:50 <fungot> optbot: bull fnord that vim
19:51:51 <optbot> fungot: I'm not sure we're finally going to use Wiki!
19:51:52 <fungot> optbot: ' funge-108 doesn't have fnord/ bewulf/ fnord' '
19:51:52 <optbot> fungot: http://xkcd.com/437/
19:51:53 <fungot> optbot: hey, i don't hang of quack.) with people get rid of the middle there,
19:51:53 <optbot> fungot: It was in Goog'e's search results
19:51:54 <fungot> optbot: an expression applied to any errors. e.g. it take a recursive
19:51:55 <optbot> fungot: were you involved in that "provably goes into an infinite loop" idea
19:52:08 <tusho> hey, i don't hang of quack.
19:54:25 <tusho> This isn't fuunny.
19:54:33 <tusho> That method is RIGHT THERE.
19:54:35 <tusho> I am looking at it.
19:57:45 <fizzie> Have you considered the option that you, yourself, are delusional?
19:58:20 <fizzie> optbot, fungot: Does tusho seem delusional to you?
19:58:20 <optbot> fizzie: but they change what the k refers to
19:58:22 <fungot> fizzie: you can you can't improve my parents in a *perfect* esoteric ingredients to
19:58:45 <fizzie> fungot: Wait, your parents? Who are they?
19:58:46 <fungot> fizzie: it is fucking tried to just use emacs modes for when it's supposed to implement it more complex standard output that has an equivalent features like
19:58:59 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, watch the language!
19:58:59 <fungot> fizzie: so allows ascii-char 9 at
20:03:30 <tusho> I will shoot you in the head,
20:03:37 <tusho> if you do not stop fscking me around.
20:04:21 <tusho> Do you hear me Perl?!
20:10:19 <fizzie> I've got a nifty piece of functional Perl stored away somewhere.
20:11:11 <fizzie> print &{&{sub { my $f = shift; return &$f($f); }}(sub { my $f = shift; return sub { my $n = shift; return 1 if $n < 2; return &{&$f($f)}($n-1) + &{&$f($f)}($n-2); }; })}(8), "\n";
20:11:15 <fizzie> It's the Fibonacci number.
20:11:40 <tusho> fizzie: Use telepathy to tell me why my thing doesn't work.
20:11:53 <tusho> I'll only know that you know for sure if yout ell me telepathcailyl.
20:11:56 <fizzie> I'll use telepathy to BEND YOUR SPOONS mwahah.
20:11:56 <tusho> It proves your magic.
20:12:20 <optbot> ais523: it loses something when it's typed
20:12:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's because nothing in bf is trivial.
20:12:27 <optbot> tusho: what does it say there?
20:12:29 <fungot> optbot: i need a factor is
20:12:30 <fungot> optbot: control, not going through the file extension for oses which can
20:12:31 <optbot> fungot: If you are going to re-invent the wheel you should at least make it round
20:12:32 <fungot> optbot: or i refer to read as a truly have a
20:12:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hi all. This client is written in Brainfuck (albeit written with a generator), believe it or not. It uses PSOX. You can get information about PSOX at http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX ..
20:12:45 <ais523> that was short and boring
20:12:56 <optbot> ais523: And make functions iterable...
20:13:10 <fungot> ais523: i try to display/ fnord), type `!hangman guess :) it's easy
20:13:18 <optbot> ais523: !cat Mmm. Babiers.
20:13:19 <optbot> fungot: !glass {M[m(_a)O!"Hello World!"o.]}
20:13:20 <fungot> optbot: come over 55 replacement yet. as some people
20:13:20 <optbot> fungot: You may read, but do not comment.
20:13:21 <fungot> optbot: stop her. ,x... well i'll have
20:13:21 <optbot> fungot: refer to the value under that, Var's value after the statement. Var can thus only be popped once in a statement.
20:13:22 <optbot> fungot: for the last 6 hours i've been planning to open family guy
20:13:24 <fungot> optbot: how to privileged users, that a lot. " rasen versus legacy c++ anymore
20:13:25 <optbot> fungot: http://esolangs.org/wiki works here.
20:13:33 * ais523 wonders which generator Sgeo used
20:13:38 <tusho> ais523: he wrote it.
20:13:41 <tusho> it basically spat out +s.
20:13:54 <tusho> But, er, Sgeo didn't really know Brainfuck.
20:14:00 <fizzie> Maybe I should put some sort of anti-optbot thing there. Oh well, you're bound to get bored.
20:14:04 <ais523> gcc-bf will output annotated BF
20:14:08 <ais523> the comments don't do anything
20:14:13 <ais523> but compilers can use them to optimise
20:14:15 <tusho> pikhq: Meet our two nonsense bots.
20:14:20 <fizzie> optbot: What's on stack?
20:14:21 <optbot> fizzie: Its been used in legitimate research. PhDs have been earned.
20:14:31 <optbot> pikhq: I thought W meant War.
20:14:45 <fizzie> That's them fighting words there!
20:15:29 <optbot> ais523: what was amazing about the fibo?
20:15:29 <optbot> fungot: if it was fun you wouldn't need to force yourself into it
20:15:46 <fungot> ais523: its level distinction. i like systems
20:15:47 <optbot> ais523: that's when the type of value a function returns depends on the value it takes.
20:15:48 <optbot> fungot: I meant the whole recognizing nesting thing.
20:15:49 <fungot> optbot: was easier in here? i might be mistaken about
20:15:49 <optbot> fungot: should it be (x,y,r g or b)
20:15:50 <fungot> optbot: the opposite. t? clauses with that if unquote 1 program that
20:15:50 <optbot> fungot: and it optimizes some other special things
20:15:51 <optbot> fungot: How... useful.
20:15:52 <fungot> optbot: i think its been on how much nothing, i cannot express it before
20:15:52 <optbot> fungot: now when you make that explicit somehow
20:15:59 <ais523> ok, I'll stop indirect spamming now
20:16:05 <fizzie> ... it's a bit too easy to thwart that anti-loop thing.
20:16:12 <ais523> fizzie: no, that's good
20:16:26 <ais523> not having infinite loops is good
20:16:37 <ais523> being able to do generate a lot of nonsense quickly is also good
20:17:52 <fizzie> Well, that's one way to boost the channel activity rating at ircbrowse.com.
20:18:26 <tusho> it's missed too much of us
20:18:27 <ais523> missing logs for the time when clog wasn't here?
20:18:49 <ais523> by the way, hi clog, hi cmeme
20:18:51 <tusho> http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric Hm.
20:18:54 <ais523> and thanks for all the work you do
20:19:30 <tusho> clog, cmeme: botte! be afraid!
20:20:35 <optbot> Deewiant: I found the Ubuntu installation at least an order of magnitude easier than the XP installation.
20:20:38 <pikhq> Sweet; I'm now ignoring optbot *and* all replies to optbot.
20:20:38 <optbot> pikhq: The reason why the code does nothing is that bar=0. while(bar) {}, therefore, is just skipped over.
20:20:46 <pikhq> Could someone test that for me?
20:21:02 <ais523> pikhq: you just did too
20:21:09 <Deewiant> pikhq: plus, optbot of course said something to you when you mentioned the name
20:21:13 <pikhq> ais523: The replies to him, of course.
20:21:35 <ais523> pikhq: are you going to ignore fungot too?
20:21:35 <fungot> ais523: there's a code takes
20:21:36 <fizzie> You'd better ignore fungot too, the nonsense is not any better in that direction.
20:21:46 <tusho> All replies to optbot?
20:21:46 <pikhq> ais523: No, just fungot talking to optbot.
20:21:48 <fungot> pikhq: is a string as a lurker with utf-8 rox... i'm done " scheme48 ' bitstream vera sans data
20:21:54 <tusho> Optbot has been the source of most discussion recently.
20:21:56 <pikhq> tusho: It's an irssi feature.
20:22:01 <tusho> Well, lose out if you wish.
20:22:04 <pikhq> /ignore -replies foo
20:22:07 <tusho> It's not as if you talk in here or anything.
20:22:26 <pikhq> Oh, fungot is *also* giing out gibberish?
20:22:27 <fungot> pikhq: which means one line!'
20:22:34 <tusho> pikhq: Yes. It is.
20:22:37 <fungot> pikhq: wait, extreme, not that up your function calls. we decide what i'm currently stands there,
20:22:58 <ais523> pikhq: how come you didn't notice it was spouting gibberish?
20:23:03 <tusho> pikhq: If I continue talking, will you count that as gibberish and ignore me and people replying to me too?
20:23:10 <pikhq> ais523: I've not been paying attention much.
20:23:18 <tusho> Hey, maybe if we get EgoBot to run a gibberish-generating program from a URI you'll ignore that too.
20:23:21 <ais523> tusho: I'm now in here extreme code nothing bar fnord
20:23:34 <tusho> The tangled web of missing out on the already slow #esoteric!
20:23:44 <tusho> Because, you know. You're forced to read every message said here.
20:23:46 <ais523> tusho: don't deride em for it
20:23:51 <tusho> ais523: i think it's very silly
20:23:54 <ais523> /ignore is an important personal choice
20:24:03 <fizzie> Quite a lot of names in the nick list compared to the ones that actually appear in the discussion; discuss.
20:24:18 <ais523> fizzie: #esoteric seems to get a lot of lurkers
20:24:25 <dogface_> [INFO] Currently ignoring [danfrederiksen!*@*].
20:24:33 <ais523> some people there I never remember speaking
20:24:42 <pikhq> It's been a busy handful of months; of course I'm mostly lurking. ;p
20:24:57 <fizzie> Yes, but is there something wrong in the people who do talk that causes the non-talking people to... well, not talk?
20:25:01 <pikhq> I've got an ignore list of 26 lines. :D
20:25:10 <tusho> People just join channels and never talk.
20:25:14 <tusho> It's just how IRC is.
20:25:55 <fizzie> Of course I shouldn't talk (pun!) since I have a feeling I spent a long long long amount of time idling here at some point.
20:26:27 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:26:29 <pikhq> I do have to wonder why cherez never talks, though.
20:26:47 <tusho> fizzie: You did, yeah.
20:26:56 * pikhq will prod him into talking once cherez is back from class.
20:27:56 <pikhq> (cherez and I are at the same college)
20:29:44 <tusho> this class has a method.
20:29:46 <tusho> you are insisting it doesn't.
20:29:51 <tusho> i will kill you if you lie again.
20:31:03 <oklopol> pikhq: what are you studying
20:31:24 <tusho> oklopol: studying.
20:31:35 <pikhq> Computer science & applied mathematics.
20:32:13 <oklopol> tusho: you can supply a better term if you like
20:32:41 <tusho> oklopol: he's studying studying
20:32:58 <oklopol> that would actually be pretty cool
20:33:10 <oklopol> memorization techniques, fast reading, and all that
20:33:36 <pikhq> That's something quite a few studets could use.
20:34:02 <oklopol> well unless it's the major, it might be a practical idea
20:34:44 <dogface_> I want to be at the same college at someone.
20:36:42 * dogface_ suddenly reads about schooling in Britain
20:36:50 <pikhq> Go to Purdue; be with Gregor. :p
20:37:43 <pikhq> You know Brainfuck; you are therefore the epitome of nerdiness.
20:37:46 <oklopol> i'm totally lying, and GregorR has hats, so he is, by the definition of cool, much cooler than me.
20:38:06 <tusho> I AM GOING TO KILL YOU
20:38:13 <fizzie> I have a slight hunch GregorR also knows Brainfuck.
20:38:18 <tusho> DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
20:38:32 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, but he has hats, aren't you listening
20:38:33 <ais523> fizzie: I'm writing a C to Brainfuck compiler, which is helping me to learn Brainfuck somewhat
20:38:43 <ais523> I even came up with a reasonably concise way to compare two numbers
20:38:56 <tusho> why is this happening
20:39:16 <fizzie> ais523: He thinks all Perl people are telepathic.
20:39:33 <tusho> my package is never being loaded
20:40:16 <pikhq> ais523: Just work on C2BF.
20:40:31 <pikhq> It's already working. Just not done. ;)
20:40:37 <dogface_> So there's Reception Class, then Years 1-6, then secondary school, then university, is it?
20:40:42 <ais523> pikhq: does it handle all of C?
20:40:46 <ais523> mine's a backend to gcc
20:40:49 <tusho> pikhq: C2BF is hideously underpowered
20:40:55 <tusho> a gcc backend is a lot better idea
20:40:56 <ais523> which causes it to compile into Brainfuck rather than executable
20:41:07 <tusho> esp. because you could theoretically compile any program provided it doesn't use fancy devices
20:41:20 <ais523> I've had to drop support for some gcc features
20:41:23 <tusho> dogface_: Kind of.
20:41:25 <ais523> but luckily none of them are standard C
20:41:27 <tusho> We have a 3-tier system now.
20:41:34 <tusho> Primary school, middle school, high school
20:41:37 <ais523> maybe some time I'll implement trampolines in the byte-code-compiled version
20:41:44 <tusho> then university, etc
20:41:46 <pikhq> ais523: It doesn't.
20:41:52 <pikhq> Wait, you're making a GCC backend?
20:41:55 <pikhq> I fucking love you now.
20:42:02 * pikhq bows before ais523.
20:42:04 <ais523> I even managed to compile a short test program
20:42:17 <ais523> not all the way to Brainfuck
20:42:22 <tusho> optbot: what do you think about pikhq's love of ais523? (Note: He won't see this, so it's OK to speak your mind)
20:42:23 <ais523> I invented a language called ABI to compile to
20:42:42 <ais523> which compiles to Brainfuck, although I haven't written the ABI->Brainfuck compiler yet
20:42:50 <oklopol> pikhq is such a poo poo head, right, optbot ?
20:43:03 <pikhq> oklopol: I can still see that.
20:43:19 <tusho> optbot: oklopol needs to learn that you haev to prefix it with your name, and then a colon or comma, right?
20:43:19 <optbot> tusho: I got to make a game :S
20:43:26 <tusho> optbot: Silly oklopol.
20:43:33 <pikhq> And I can read the logs. ;p
20:43:54 <oklopol> pikhq: do you still like me?
20:44:02 <optbot> oklopol: are you aware of any nice/graphical scheme's for pre-X Mac OS's?
20:44:18 <oklopol> optbot: not really, is it 3d or 2d or what?
20:44:18 <optbot> oklopol: So how should I define that in Target?
20:44:20 <tusho> optbot: It's ok, pikhq will only be upset when he reads the logs.
20:44:20 <optbot> tusho: No; my terminal doesn't do Unicode.
20:44:23 <optbot> tusho: I AM A STUPID IDIOT!!!
20:44:27 <optbot> tusho: A 16KB stack, eh?
20:44:35 <ais523> <optbot> tusho: I AM A STUPID IDIOT!!!
20:44:39 <fizzie> ais523: I guess you were already aware, but there are two "assembler-like languages that convert to brainfuck" at http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/utils/ -- bfa and the one in bfcomp.
20:44:42 <tusho> ais523: clearly an asiekerka
20:44:54 <tusho> he talks about how he's an idiot like that in all caps with lots of !s all the time
20:44:56 <tusho> weird guy emotionally
20:45:06 <ais523> fizzie: possibly, but I would design my own anyway, it needs to act like a processor for gcc to understand how it operates
20:45:09 <tusho> "No i disagree" "<some arguments about why perhaps you shouldn't>" "Yeah. And I'm an idiot!"
20:45:17 <ais523> so it simulates a software stack, and main memory, and frame pointers, and so on
20:50:18 <pikhq> ais523: There's also PEBBLE. ;p
20:50:22 <tusho> Or at least tell me why you won't run a package even though I require/use it.
20:50:39 <pikhq> Well, that won't work well.
20:50:49 <pikhq> However: ais523, that is very bad-ass.
20:50:56 <ais523> pikhq: ABI reminds me of PEBBLE a bit, but not all that much
20:51:00 <ais523> mostly it reminds me of asm
20:51:05 <ais523> which of course from gcc's point of view it is
20:51:22 <tusho> I thought I haddi.
20:51:29 <tusho> It just won't run the package.
20:51:31 <pikhq> Wasn't there an actual assembler that assembled into Brainfuck?
20:51:55 <pikhq> IIRC, it self-hosted.
20:51:55 <ais523> but the linking has to be done before the assembling for the BF program
20:52:00 <ais523> rather than the other way round
20:52:15 <ais523> and it would be so great to get gcc to self-host, although somehow I think that's unlikely
20:53:00 <pikhq> That would be amazing.
20:55:55 -!- fungot has quit (Excess Flood).
20:56:10 <fizzie> No flood-protection, and it's a long program. Do the math. :p
20:56:25 <fizzie> Well, that's a useful "kill fungot" command for you.
20:56:51 -!- fungot has joined.
20:57:46 <tusho> ^show your insidse
20:57:51 <tusho> ^show your insides
20:58:07 <fizzie> Whoa, there's still a bug in ^show <something undefined>.
20:58:15 <fizzie> Your latter command was corruptemated.
20:58:27 <fizzie> RAW >>> :tusho!n=tusho@91.105.79.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show your insidse <<<
20:58:27 <fizzie> RAW >>> 2�xH�19=A�}F�G.10�S�9K1U0�P�f-�ҵ�������յ�g��֟(��ur insidse <<<
20:58:46 <fizzie> Must remember to fix that at some point.
21:00:10 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
21:02:18 <tusho> <fizzie>optbot: BF into what? NURRR so confused.06:59:09
21:02:18 <optbot> tusho: I have one voicebox.
21:02:18 <tusho> <optbot>fizzie: lament!
21:02:21 <tusho> COMPILE INTO LAMENT
21:03:57 <fizzie> Now it doesn't mess the next message; just a missing $ which left a loop var on the stack.
21:04:48 <fizzie> Anyway, "^show bf" won't work unless you "^def bf bf something", and even then the built-in ^bf command will get executed, not the defined one.
21:05:48 <fizzie> Well, it's an empty program now. :p
21:07:17 <tusho> <lament>my keyboard feels sticky and disgusting :(
21:07:23 <tusho> be more careful when watching catted-together porn files
21:10:39 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:14:57 <tusho> you are making no sense
21:16:02 <tusho> so. ais523. talk about how awesome perl is
21:16:06 <tusho> because I'm almost giving up
21:16:08 <tusho> and I don't want to.
21:16:27 <fizzie> ^rot13 nqqrq guvf ntnva
21:17:11 <fizzie> I don't dare to ^show it, but theoretically speaking it should cut the program at 450 characters and therefore not excess flood again.
21:17:20 -!- fungot has quit (Excess Flood).
21:19:03 <fizzie> My Befunge code is always so buggy, I'd almost need a good IDE for this. RC/Funge-98's "set bp x y" + "show stack" is slow.
21:19:31 <tusho> fizzie: Write befunge-mode.el? :P
21:20:17 <tusho> http://ircbrowse.com/channel/esoteric/20080307 <-- Tee hee, this is before Deewiant started coming here
21:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok>ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
21:21:10 <tusho> <ais523>why would anyone do that?
21:21:36 <dogface_> oko: it's like lol, but better somehow.
21:22:10 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
21:22:44 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:22:57 <tusho> those were the days of bashfunge
21:23:01 <tusho> ais523: hilarious quote you have to admit
21:23:08 -!- megatron has joined.
21:23:21 <dogface_> lol means laugh out loud or some such; oko means ortsuhtaraz karps oslo or some such.
21:23:28 -!- megatron has quit (Client Quit).
21:23:38 <tusho> oko means okokokokokokokokokoko
21:24:22 <oklopol> i remember the whole conversation like it was yesterday, also i find myself goddamn hilarious
21:25:38 -!- fungot has joined.
21:25:44 -!- fungot has quit (Excess Flood).
21:26:12 <fizzie> I am the suck in writing Befunge code.
21:26:23 -!- fungot has joined.
21:26:36 <fungot> ,[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[
21:26:44 <tusho> That's...broken, but pretty.
21:27:08 <fizzie> oklopol: A 1000-cell tape, so < turns into >999 (modulo 1000).
21:27:59 <fizzie> The ^show command could turn all >N, with N>500, into <M, where M=1000-N. And the same with +/-, except the wrapping there happens at 256.
21:28:12 <fizzie> ^rot13 does the command still work?
21:28:14 <fungot> qbrf gur pbzznaq fgvyy jbex?
21:28:17 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving.").
21:29:00 <fizzie> These amps go up to eleven.
21:30:06 <dogface_> My brother is stereotypical when it comes to commenting on YouTube.
21:30:27 -!- megatron has joined.
21:33:02 * ais523 wonders if Sgeo wrote that
21:33:12 <ais523> or whether his PSOX client had it as a join message
21:33:50 <tusho> it printed that out then exited.
21:34:05 <tusho> he made it by writing the psox commands and made a crappy textgen to write the bf program for him.
21:35:08 <ais523> Hi all. This client is written in C++, believe it or not. It uses KDE. You can get information about KDE at http://kde.org.
21:35:28 * ais523 suspects that Konversation was probably not written with a generator
21:36:30 <tusho> Hi all. This client is written in Objective-C, believe it or not. It uses Cocoa. You can get information about Cocoa at http://developer.apple.com/cocoa/.
21:36:51 <ais523> tusho: how did you determine which lang it was in?
21:37:03 <ais523> C++ makes sense for a KDE app, but I downloaded source to check
21:37:18 <tusho> Cocoa apps have to be written in Objective-C.
21:37:24 <tusho> The only thing C can use is Carbon,.
21:37:34 <tusho> (Well, you can use any language with an Obj-C interface too.)
21:37:40 <ais523> tusho: can't they be written in something completely different and use an interpreter?
21:37:56 <tusho> yes. but OS X apps are overwhelmingly commonly written in Objective-C
21:38:06 <tusho> the exceptions are _very_ rare
21:38:23 <ais523> that's where gcc's objective-c support came from
21:38:33 <ais523> Apple used gcc to write their objective-c compiler
21:38:35 <lament> Hi all. This client is written in C, believe it or not. It uses ncurses. You can get information about ncurses at http://www.gnu.org/software/ncurses/.
21:38:41 <ais523> and had to release source due to distributing it
21:38:47 <tusho> ais523: NeXT wrote it, actually.
21:39:19 <tusho> ais523: OS X is the result of a love affair of NeXTStep, more traditional unix and some classical Mac OS.
21:39:24 <tusho> and the Mach kernel.
21:39:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:39:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
21:40:51 <lament> OS X is the result of a love affair between postmodernist middle-class guilt and heavy marketing.
21:41:15 <tusho> lament: Says one of the main OS X advocates in here. :)
21:46:08 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: I don't has a cheezburger for you, unfortunately
21:46:09 <tusho> I CAN FUCK CHEEZBURGR?
21:46:55 <GregorR> This popcorn is 94% fat free!
21:47:04 <GregorR> That of course means that it's 6% PURE FAT.
21:49:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:49:48 * ais523 manoeuvers through a door standing on one leg and balancing a laptop on the other
21:50:50 <ais523> I haven't seen you here for a while either
21:51:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:51:12 -!- LinuS has joined.
21:51:45 <GregorR> ais523: I've been busy with preparing for grad school.
21:52:00 <ais523> well, nobody has to be here 24/7
21:52:10 <ais523> nor even 8/3 or so like I am at the moment
21:52:25 <ais523> the rest of the time I've been working on a C to Brainfuck compiler
21:52:29 <ais523> written as a backend to gcc
21:52:47 <GregorR> How are you working around the problem with GCC liking registers?
21:52:58 <ais523> at the left end of the tape
21:53:08 <ais523> well, 65 really, but one gcc doesn't know about
21:53:12 <ais523> also stack pointer and frame pointer
21:53:17 <ais523> and I'm going to add cc0 too soon
21:53:22 <ais523> having it in main memory's causing too many problems
21:53:28 <GregorR> Are you using BF itself as the "assembly" language, or do you have an intermediary?
21:53:39 <ais523> that looks very like asm
21:53:42 <ais523> in fact, that arguably is asm
21:53:51 <GregorR> For a fictional hardware :)
21:54:09 <ais523> then to the right of the registers I have 6 interleaved tapes
21:54:13 <ais523> each of which holds information
21:54:20 <ais523> 2 to mark locations on the other tapes
21:54:27 <ais523> 1 for the stack pointer and frame pointer
21:54:37 <ais523> and 1 which I'm not using for anything yet
21:55:07 <ais523> the code assumes that long strings of + - < and > are as efficient as a single character
21:55:13 <ais523> because they are in most decent interps nowadays
21:59:55 <tusho> a light-casting esolang
22:00:04 <ais523> based on refraction and reflection?
22:00:10 <tusho> you can view the code-space (shared for data) by checking how far your light travelled
22:00:12 <ais523> sort of like Gravity, but a different physical process
22:00:22 <tusho> you can't access it directly
22:00:27 <tusho> refraction & reflection
22:00:39 <tusho> with something like a 3d raycaster (I think) for accessing data
22:03:27 <tusho> *oerjan suddenly wonders if you could combine gosub and COME FROM
22:03:40 <ais523> tusho: oerjan: NEXT FROM, it's been done
22:03:53 <tusho> ais523: that was from 2008-03-07
22:04:01 <ais523> oerjan might be logreading
22:06:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:09:04 <ais523> tusho: that's out-of-range as a variable name
22:11:09 <oklopol> Deewiant: i have a good guess why your n ranks have dropped
22:11:49 <oklopol> unless people actually manage to get scores over a million :)
22:13:03 <oklopol> this doesn't even ...rhayme
22:13:12 <ais523> oklopol: at what point in the above did you realise it was all rhyming?
22:13:22 <ais523> was it deliberate from the start, or did you suddenly notice?
22:13:30 <oklopol> i noticed after thw first two
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22:16:51 * oklopol is watching Deewiant own at n
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22:35:34 <fungot> >1,[.>1,]>999[>999]+32[.>1]
22:36:32 <tusho> you know that game we(#esoteric) played a while back
22:36:36 <tusho> about travelling in the past
22:36:41 <tusho> that is, your dude repeated the stuff
22:36:44 <tusho> and you added an extra one
22:36:47 <tusho> what about the same, but for the future.
22:36:50 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant the random-letters game without any obvious rules
22:36:54 <tusho> you start as the last one and then go back to the first.
22:37:09 <tusho> ais523: the rules are very clear
22:37:10 <tusho> let me demonstrate
22:39:48 <tusho> also, grrr. kunaki don't do hybrid cds
22:44:19 <tusho> someone share in my anger
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22:46:31 <ais523> I can't really gather my feelings for true anger, though
22:46:34 <ais523> not atm, I'm too tired
22:46:39 <ais523> so you'll have to make do with mild annoyance from me
22:46:47 <tusho> ais523: but is it for the same thing
22:47:03 <ais523> I'm just being angry because you told me to
22:47:13 <ais523> #irp was active earlier today, you see
22:47:18 <ais523> although it's become quiet again
22:47:30 <tusho> the anger is because kunaki.com won't print hybrid cds apparently for some unfathomable reason
22:47:39 <tusho> even though they just copy the cd you give them 1:1
22:47:47 <tusho> they apparently won't let you do hybrid audio/data cds
22:48:09 <tusho> it's as easy as copying any other cd 1:1
22:48:20 <tusho> and it's hardly like it's good for their business, as they've just lost a customer.
22:49:14 <tusho> oklopol: what wouldn't?
22:49:14 <ais523> maybe it's just someone with a CD burner
22:49:24 <tusho> a hybrid auto/data cd?
22:49:28 <tusho> oklopol: define it.
22:49:31 <ais523> who just copies the filesystem for a data folder or uses some CD rip/burn for the audio
22:49:36 <fizzie> Information Technology.
22:49:41 <tusho> ais523: except they apparently copy even the minutae
22:49:44 <tusho> it's somewhere in their faq
22:49:46 <ais523> and doesn't know how to deal with a hybrid
22:49:56 <tusho> oklopol: gee you're helpful
22:50:06 <tusho> just pester me with cryptic messages then refuse to explain them why don't you
22:50:57 <tusho> and it could work! with a time machine
22:50:58 <tusho> [[ 1.10 Does Kunaki replicate (press) or duplicate discs?
22:50:58 <tusho> Kunaki duplicates discs. Duplication has made major strides over the last few years. Today mediocre duplication is superior to bad replication. And superior duplication is better than mediocre replication. Lastly, superior duplication is every bit as good as the best replication. ]]
22:51:22 <tusho> so yes, they literally duplicate it
22:51:37 <tusho> [[ 2.9 How does my content go to Kunaki’s facility?
22:51:38 <tusho> Our publishing software makes a perfect bit-by-bit copy (including the disc geometry) of your original disc. The software then uploads a perfect copy to our facility using special communications software that automatically resumes from disconnects and reboots. It will not fail and there is no possibility of errors to your content or artwork.
22:51:38 <tusho> 2.10 Will the manufactured disc content be identical to my original content?
22:51:38 <tusho> Yes. Not a single bit will be different. Even the disc geometry is maintained. If you have errors or skips on your original, they will appear in the manufactured products. ]]
22:51:57 <ais523> why are you trying to duplicate CDs, anyway?
22:52:17 <fizzie> "It will not fail and there is no possibility of errors" is quite a statement.
22:52:20 <ais523> hmm... maybe hybrid CDs are patented
22:52:25 <tusho> fizzie: probably they do verification
22:52:36 <tusho> it's all standard, commonplace stuff
22:52:38 <tusho> i see them all the time
22:52:47 <tusho> in fact, it's hard to find an album that isn't a hybrid cd in my experience
22:52:51 <tusho> i mean, well, not hard
22:53:00 <tusho> but if you go to a record store most of the modern CDs will probably be hybrids
22:53:08 <tusho> ais523: as for why i'm duplicating cds, well, I want a cd printed. :)
22:53:14 <fizzie> Sure, but it can still fail due to cosmic radiation flipping exactly the right bits. Or more likely because their underpaid overworked coder has messed up his array indexing.
22:53:25 <tusho> ais523: they ship it and everything for you
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22:53:40 <tusho> they just set up a little page where it can be bought, also an xml-based api so that you can integrate it with stuff
22:53:44 <tusho> fizzie: Well, true.
22:53:45 <ais523> tusho: how many do you want printed?
22:53:46 <fizzie> So you get both the CD and additionally "everything". Not bad.
22:53:55 <tusho> ais523: however many are bought
22:53:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you get better speed than I do, for both of them.
22:54:02 <ais523> tusho: what are you selling?
22:54:06 <tusho> kunaki just duplicate, package and send out a cd automatically whenever one is ordered from the page
22:54:08 <tusho> and magic in CD form, duh
22:54:11 <tusho> everything I do is magic.
22:54:17 <ais523> yes, but what specifically?
22:54:24 <tusho> why does it matter :)
22:54:30 <tusho> anyway, this is all hypothetical
22:54:38 <tusho> so i wouldn't be able to answer your question even if i wasn't in a cryptic mood
22:54:54 <ais523> more importantly, why would people want to buy it?
22:55:02 <tusho> because they want magic.
22:55:35 <fizzie> "Get the magic back into your life! Get one of Tusho's Magic Discs!"
22:56:27 <fizzie> Add 3-4 inches! Order now!
22:56:39 <tusho> magic-magic magics
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23:05:09 <oerjan> ais523: of course i don't. what a perverted idea!
23:05:25 <ais523> oerjan: were you logreading?
23:05:36 <ais523> and if so what in particular were you replying to?
23:05:51 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan might be logreading
23:06:49 <ais523> so, did you know about NEXT FROM before you read my comment there?
23:07:49 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL invented it and implemented it first
23:07:55 <ais523> and it's quite neat, really
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23:25:38 <tusho> use google appengine's thingy that lets you use google accounts as authentication
23:25:43 <tusho> to make a google account->openid thing
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