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00:11:52 <tusho> the writer of the Worse is Better essay doesn't actually agree with it
00:12:04 <tusho> http://dreamsongs.com/Files/worse-is-worse.pdf
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01:21:29 <pikhq> "Worse is Better" is little more than old-style UNIX's modus operandi.
01:21:42 <pikhq> It's not necessarily a good way to write software, it's just a way to get it done quick, dirty, and cheap.
01:22:01 <pikhq> Arguably, nobody has figured that out yet.
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02:45:41 <dogface> Well, it hasn't been one of the things on my mind.
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02:46:30 <dogface> I've been thinking about teaching a piano to sing, teaching a chatbot to count IQ points, teaching myself to memorize...
02:47:05 <dogface> Teaching a piano to sing is the most interesting-sounding one because I didn't have to say "teaching".
02:50:08 <oerjan> boring. try teaching a chatbot to sing, teaching a piano to memorize, and teaching yourself to count IQ points
02:51:01 <oerjan> also, the chickens are restless.
02:53:32 <dogface> Chatbots cannot sing, pianos cannot memorize, and me counting IQ points would just be silly.
02:54:11 <dogface> Much more interesting: teach a chatbot to memorize, myself to sing, and a piano to count IQ points. All very easy, except that last one.
02:54:35 <oerjan> that _would_ depend btw.
02:54:53 <oerjan> you could be tone deaf.
02:56:44 <dogface> I have absolute pitch but unfortunately am kind of tone deaf, yes.
02:57:26 <dogface> Yeah, never mind. I can sing the way my brother cannot.
03:01:56 <dogface> Or I could have Aftran do it.
03:10:32 <dogface> oerjan, will you make a grammar (BNF-like, maybe) of English syntax so psygnisfive will be appeased?
03:10:49 <psygnisfive> this is totally not the point, dogface! >_<
03:11:21 <dogface> What's the point, then? To compare oklopol's idea of English syntax to mine?
03:11:24 <psygnisfive> by even suggesting a BNF like grammar you've tainted oerjan
03:11:46 <dogface> oklopol, make it BNF-like, maybe.
03:12:11 <dogface> Now both the control and the... non-control are equally tainted again.
03:12:19 <psygnisfive> the point was that no assumptions about the grammar should be introduced, it can take whatever form you need
03:12:46 <psygnisfive> tho oklopol's already using BNF so it doesnt matter
03:13:03 <oerjan> the grammar is of a transcendent essence - incomprehensible by human reason
03:14:00 <dogface> Why do you want this done, by the way?
03:14:23 <psygnisfive> i want to see what sort of ideas non-linguists come up with
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03:14:37 <dogface> Aftran's not qualified, then.
03:14:45 <Sgeo> dogface, for what?
03:14:56 <psygnisfive> sort of a metaexperiment to see if the current body of linguistics research is too tradition steeped or not
03:14:58 <dogface> <psygnisfive> i want to see what sort of ideas non-linguists come up with
03:15:41 <psygnisfive> i mean, you guys are already tainted in your knowledge of formal grammars
03:16:08 <psygnisfive> ive already seen some distinctly mainline linguistics type ideas from you guys
03:16:17 <dogface> Well, I'd make it mostly BNF, except that conjunction and matching of pronouns make it wacko.
03:16:25 <psygnisfive> whereas this other person im sort of poking and prodding is coming up with less mainstream ideas
03:16:42 <psygnisfive> dogface: but thats the fun part! itll be very difficult for you to make it BNF
03:17:01 <psygnisfive> there are numerous apparently non-BNF behaviors
03:17:35 <dogface> <X> ::= <X> "and" <X>, where X is any type of phrase at all.
03:17:56 <psygnisfive> but there are other things that aren't so trivial
03:18:19 <dogface> "Where" is a phrase. "Is" is a phrase. "Any" is a phrase. "Type" is a phrase. "Of" is a phrase. "Phrase" is a phrase. "At" is a phrase. "All" is a phrase.
03:18:47 <dogface> I think calculus is necessary.
03:19:01 <dogface> Hey, I'm being serious, here. :-)
03:19:13 <dogface> Calculus is useful in Haskell programming, after all.
03:20:40 <dogface> Differentiate <X> ::= <X> "and" <X>, and you get 1 ::= <X> "and" 1 | 1 "and" <X>.
03:21:31 <dogface> I'm sure that's useful somehow.
03:22:29 <dogface> How dare you deny the utility of things I say I'm sure are useful.
03:22:43 <dogface> Though I only say I'm sure when I'm not sure, as you're all aware.
03:22:54 <psygnisfive> you're not even trying you're just being random :(
03:22:59 <dogface> I'm pondering how to apply this calculus stuff to it.
03:23:50 <dogface> I don't want you to require me to do it.
03:24:02 <psygnisfive> you're not required, but you said you would
03:24:27 <dogface> England requires that every man will do his duty?
03:53:51 <dogface> I don't want you to expect me to do it.
03:54:04 <psygnisfive> i expect you to do it only if you say you'll do it.
03:54:59 <dogface> I don't say I'll do it, then.
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08:00:08 <fizzie> Added yet another channel to the fungot mix, but as it has only 12M of logs (compared to 35M of #esoteric and 72M of #scheme) it probably won't show much.
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08:02:01 <fizzie> Oh, orwell.freenode.net had bumped fungot off, also.
08:02:02 <fungot> fizzie: no fnord headers like in c++... so you get the idea. i have a graph of the number of possible matches excluded at each node, and you wanted to do
08:03:19 <fizzie> If fungot ends up speaking Finnish a bit, it's because of that third channel. I'm not certain it has been quite unilingual all the time.
08:03:20 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 is good, ffi may not matter.' that was based on... xml! i like my new cat moving in here. completely different thing than replacing, namely, the word itself does not specify which functions are not first class, yes, might well be faster than others i guess
08:03:52 <fizzie> That's one messed-up bot right there.
08:25:52 <oklopol> psygnisfive: can you share with me the non-mainstream ideas?
08:26:00 <fizzie> I think it was someone else's cat; we didn't get a cat until later.
08:26:08 <oklopol> or with us, same thing from my perspective ofc
08:27:06 <psygnisfive> ::hug:: just message me any ideas youve had
08:27:32 <oklopol> also i'm doing some night watchmanship this weekend
08:27:44 <oklopol> so i might have some nightly time to waste for you
08:28:57 <oklopol> perhaps i should ignore all messages with ::xx::'s from psygnisfive, would make our conversations a whole lot less gay :P
08:29:29 <oklopol> don't worry, i don't ignore
08:30:02 <oklopol> night; ignoring is like pressing the "i never want to do the update" button when you don't wanna do an update
08:30:10 <oklopol> what if i wanna do it in 10 years?
08:30:25 <lament> a goodnight french kiss eh
08:30:27 <oklopol> thus, i must press "ask again later".
08:30:53 <lament> you can always unignore in 10 years
08:31:11 <oklopol> well true, i guess that's a bit different
08:31:45 <oklopol> perhaps i just wanna feel loved or something, like, subconsciously
08:33:18 <oklopol> can't you sleep unless we shut up?
08:33:30 <oklopol> i can't, but i'm a fucking retard
08:33:53 <oklopol> well, i'm off to university in a few minutes
08:33:56 <psygnisfive> if you dont stop talking i see the text move!
08:34:35 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, say something before psygnisfive falls asleep.
08:34:36 <fungot> fizzie: fnord windows. that's always tricky. i could actually make progress on my bf 2 glypho compiler last night :) fnord/ fnord/ fnord generic dispatch system, which is an improvement of the scheme community is clearly fragmented with respect to srfi mailing lists... it had to do our project things occasionally.
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08:35:06 <oklopol> what's this thing fungot has for fnords
08:35:07 <fungot> oklopol: it gives the rest to be a priest; while doing that, but it ends up being even more annoying. the ones which come with perl, sometimes without so much as readability
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08:35:47 <fizzie> oklopol: Didn't I mention? All out-of-vocabulary words (words that occurred only once in the logs) get mapped to token 0 ('UNK') which fungot expands as "fnord".
08:35:47 <fungot> fizzie: i also have mit-scheme installed, although i don't claim t is useful yet.
08:35:57 <oklopol> after fjord, they just started making up impossible-to-pronounce words without meaning, methinks
08:36:14 <fizzie> And fnord is a Discordianism term.
08:36:29 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, how did you manage to install mit-scheme in your little chroot jail?
08:36:30 <fungot> fizzie: this just has ' smbsh' but it's still not easy yet though, unless you'd call scheme's lambda procedure calls ' scheme's object system. ( by ' fusably atomically,' i mean as a complement, not a complete object serialization specification; it's pretty useless without it. :p it was supposed to be
08:36:31 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
08:36:53 <fizzie> Wikipedia "Fnord", then; the article seems accurate enough.
08:37:10 <fizzie> There's also a web server, but that's not why I picked it.
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14:17:25 * SimonRC is suffering from internet fail, and will remain gone.
14:21:13 <oklopol> SimonRC: what does that mean?
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15:49:12 <Slereah_> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fetishes.png
15:49:17 <Slereah_> This is relevant to my interests.
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18:38:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | could be a leak in my code too, forgetting to clear the results at some point..
18:41:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | found the problem.07:40:00.
18:46:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | conkeror was much less than i expected.
18:47:29 <ais523> heh, optbot set the topic three times but was only shouted at twice
18:47:29 <optbot> ais523: you can't find the shortest program in the general case
18:48:12 <Deewiant> it either does it randomly or somebody knows how to tell it via query
18:48:24 <ais523> Deewiant: it does it every six hours, I think
18:48:31 <ais523> it was just fortuitous timing I expect
18:48:42 <fungot> ais523: that it provides a structured combinator-based interface as well. it doesn't happen by default, doesn't like the fnord approach. 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
18:48:56 <ais523> fungot: what's with all the zeros?
18:48:57 <fungot> ais523: it's a little sampler of every tract. how come my dr scheme does not work here... unbound variable: the. notation ( can't find that thingie with google/ googlism. i'll gripe if it's an object with a finalizer needs to be
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21:01:10 <fizzie> fungot: Where did you get those zeros?
21:01:10 <fungot> fizzie: i am a toy by both definitions expressions if used in excess where unnecessary, perhaps. not that i'd want to use multiple shifts resets in one place
21:01:28 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, you are a toy.
21:01:28 <ais523> fizzie: I assume fungot got them in something posted to a channel
21:01:29 <fungot> fizzie: homo sapiens, last i checked
21:01:29 <fungot> ais523: you're lucky, break everything! i mean the set of srfis array slices subarray copying) 2.) define a condition type is created
21:01:46 <ais523> fizzie: it actually gave you an intelligible and relevant reply...
21:02:46 <fizzie> Yes, that's a surprise.
21:03:19 <ais523> optbot does that a lot more often
21:03:42 <fizzie> Yes, I know. optbot's brain works better, fungot's a bit addled.
21:03:43 <fungot> fizzie: it's not a running computation, since there are bfi programs it should be spelled " unnescessary". every recursive call to fact occurs in the _argument_ position for the 70% of the time at some point, sharing might prove useful
21:04:11 <ais523> what fungot says normally almost makes sense without quite getting there
21:04:12 <fungot> ais523: you got cut off at ' because there is nothing implicit. to we pass a pair around, and they can tinker with it. i have a working password to the unix shell and file i/ o with monads!!! chicken installs an scheme-r5rs in /usr/ sbin/ named doesn't segfault but waits infinitely at fnord,
21:05:25 <fizzie> I don't think it's a good idea to install scheme-r5rs in /usr/sbin/named.
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21:16:02 <ais523> fizzie: yep, probably not
21:16:13 <ais523> although it probably wouldn't bork a system, it would just be utterly pointless
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22:15:47 <ais523> I just saw this on comp.lang.c:
22:15:50 <ais523> Writing a conforming C
22:15:50 <ais523> > implementation, even one that's not useful, is a sufficiently large
22:15:50 <ais523> > task that nobody has the time to do it as a joke.
22:16:01 <ais523> that just reminded me of #esoteric so much
22:17:02 <ais523> well, arguably I'm doing something like that, but it's based on gcc and so doesn't count
22:17:15 <ais523> gcc for the conformance with C, brainfuck for the weirdness
22:21:16 <Slereah_> What Linux distro would you advise?
22:21:38 <Slereah_> One that is simple to handle for a stupid man like me
22:22:05 <ais523> Slereah_: Ubuntu if you don't want to do much learning of Linux
22:22:46 <lament> ubuntu but remember to install real vim!
22:23:07 <ais523> lament: well it doesn't have full-featured vim or any emacs by default, but installing new programs is trivial
22:23:20 <ais523> Applications | Add/Remove via the GUI, or sudo apt-get via the command line
22:23:23 <ais523> depending on which you prefer to use
22:23:45 <Slereah_> What's the differences between the different Ubuntus?
22:23:48 <lament> i got very confused for a while because 'vim' launches something that looks exactly like vim but doesn't understand anything
22:23:50 <ais523> Slereah_: window manager
22:24:01 <ais523> Ubuntu uses Gnome, Kubuntu uses KDE
22:24:09 <fizzie> They're call desktop environments when there's more stuff than just your basic wm. :p
22:24:19 <fizzie> And Xubuntu does xfce. Those are I guess the most mainstream ones.
22:24:29 <ais523> Slereah_: you can install both at once if you like, I have both Ubuntu and Kubuntu mixed on here
22:24:45 <ais523> and can log into either Gnome or KDE, although I usually use Gnome
22:24:49 <ais523> this is a KDE IRC client, though
22:25:50 <fizzie> I've got evilwm in this OS X laptop, and awesome as the wm for my workstation, so I'm probably not the best person to ask for advice in this regard.
22:26:39 <fizzie> fungot, optbot: What Linux distributions do you guys like?
22:26:40 <optbot> fizzie: I don't know about the system egobot needs
22:26:40 <fungot> fizzie: the lang i described above? data module is discussed in sicp. i don't really know about anyone's schedule here.
22:27:19 <fizzie> optbot: Uh, I don't think running egobot is that much of a criterion here.
22:27:20 <optbot> fizzie: just a moment...
22:30:59 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: happens often :\
22:31:48 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Klingon?
22:31:59 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: the design philosophy is creating a language that can be compiled pretty easily and that is designed so that programming errors are either hard to make or easy for the compiler to catch
22:33:51 <fungot> ais523: that is cfunge output fail in firefox is also a popular motivational speaker. get my opinion without explanation as i'm getting shiny after chandler comment :)
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23:00:09 <fungot> ais523: fnord/ wine/ wine/ fnord/ thue/ doc/ mzc/ mzc-z-h-2.htmlnode_chap_2 gc while the program is?, which takes considerable time from scheme48 hacking.
23:00:25 <ais523> fungot: that's some directory path...
23:00:26 <fungot> ais523: since it isn't supported... in non-r5rs systems, then they're all subject to godel numbering, which means morning, or typically good morning, catfive.
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