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03:14:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there's so much room for experimental error there.
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05:00:08 <immibis> anyone know how to set the storage offset in funge 93?
05:01:19 <immibis> "In Funge-98, each IP has an additional vector property called the storage offset. Initially this vector is the set to the origin. As such, it works to emulate Befunge-93. The arguments to g and p are the same, but instead of pointing to absolute locations in Funge-Space, they reference a cell relative to the storage offset. "
05:01:50 <lament> befunge-93 does not have a storage offset
05:02:06 <lament> so as long as the offset is 0 in funge-98, it works just like befunge-93
05:07:38 <Asztal> { can set it, but not to an arbitrary value
05:09:20 <Asztal> (there was also a dynamic fingerprint spec from Jeffrey Lee that allowed setting the haunted IP's storage offset, but I don't think that spec is implemented)
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06:41:33 <fizzie> 0{<y><x>02-u0} sets the storage offset.
06:42:47 <fizzie> Uh, with a $$ afterwards to get rid of the actual storage offset.
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12:51:37 <optbot> oklocod: really? It looks nice?
12:51:47 <oklocod> that's why i like you, optbot
12:52:04 <oklocod> well yes, it's pretty tiny
12:52:09 <oklocod> but it's not all about the size, oklocod
12:52:12 <optbot> oklocod: I like your new website, but the articles are all missing. I remember reading about ESO OS, and now...?
12:52:29 <oklocod> optbot: you must be confusing me with someone else
12:52:30 <optbot> oklocod: Get all the latest offers on chocolate bar accessories!
12:54:48 <optbot> GregorR: And besides...
12:54:56 <optbot> GregorR: I don't think I should really include the VARG() variations
12:55:08 <GregorR> optbot: You have no intelligence at all, do you?
12:55:09 <optbot> GregorR: i don't think it's bread
13:01:15 <fizzie> optbot: Your HEAD is full of BREAD.
13:01:16 <optbot> fizzie: (I'd really like to pick up keigo a bit, though. . . That looks interesting, moderately difficult, yet worthwhile)
13:08:45 <oklocod> GregorR: language design job where what tell all that is not secret
13:09:04 <oklocod> hope that made as much sense it was intended to make.
13:09:39 <GregorR> If it was intended to make no sense whatsoever, then it did.
13:09:55 <oklocod> you're a professional language designer nowadays, huh?
13:10:14 <GregorR> No, I'm a grad student, but that does mean that I'm paid to do language research, yeah.
13:11:00 <oklocod> will you tell more details
13:11:16 <oklocod> like, what are you researching, or just something general you can't put it into words
13:11:45 <GregorR> Oh. Well, I'm a first year first semester, so whatever I fall into, but right now I'm working on a team designing an extensible language
13:12:36 <oklocod> that may be enough to silence my curiosity for now
13:13:13 <GregorR> Well, it's a joint research project with IBM so I may not be able to say more.
13:15:09 <oklocod> it's just i liked plof :-P
13:15:32 <oklocod> by that i meant, i'm interested in what you cook up.
13:15:55 <GregorR> Well, I'm sure I'll be in here bragging about any publications, but that probably won't happen 'til next year or so :P
13:17:15 <oklocod> btw, if ibm's involved, i'm pretty sure you'd know if you weren't allowed to say anything
13:17:43 <oklocod> and by that i don't mean "come on, tell me more", just general wonderingnessment.
13:18:31 <oklocod> i mean, google made me swear not to tell even though i'm basically just clicking "spam/not spam" buttons for them.
13:59:26 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
14:28:21 <optbot> oklopol: Strangely the "%d" gets replaced by nothing whatsoever.
14:28:27 <psygnisfive> someone recently started a thread on that "why did you bring that book ..." sentence up
14:29:01 <oklopol> that wasn't me, and i haven't seen tha
14:29:12 <oklopol> but i've been randomly browsing zbb
14:29:35 <psygnisfive> ill tell you how i think movement parsing should go, just not now
15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | h or H - say "Hello World".
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16:41:45 <AnMaster> hm idea for another fingerprint: Fungespace Query Language
16:42:23 <GregorR> Slereah_: Why is your ident "jewbutt"?
16:42:55 <AnMaster> also I got a good idea for how to *represent* semaphores in ATHR
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16:43:58 <AnMaster> since it uses a library-metaphor for mutexes, just making the library have several copies of the same book in stock
16:44:07 <AnMaster> however implementing this would be complex for me
16:44:27 <AnMaster> in fact I need to write my own lock server then, and that would need to handle distributed stuff
16:44:59 <AnMaster> oh another problem: Funge-Space bounds updates
16:49:06 * ehird thinks about natural language parsing
16:49:46 <ehird> i'm sure i could parse "the karma of the person who said 'indeed'"
16:49:50 <ehird> AnMaster: fungespace
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16:49:59 <ehird> "karma of person who said 'indeed'"
16:50:04 <ehird> -> "karma of (person said "indeed")"
16:50:25 <ehird> -> select ?person, ?karma where { ?person :said "indeed" . ?person :karma ?karma . }
16:50:28 <ehird> surely i could parse that,
16:50:28 <asiekierka> But i planned to make a Taxi-like languagwe
16:50:54 <ehird> karma of (person said "indeed")
16:50:54 <asiekierka> basically, there's a set of buses running different trails (which you set at the beginning of the program), max buses amount is 10.
16:51:07 <ehird> v1 = person said "indeed"
16:51:10 <ehird> v2 = karma of person
16:51:14 <asiekierka> And you can set commands to a different bus, but you can't move something from one bus to another, you must use a standing point
16:51:14 <oklopol> ehird: why is "person" the referent in (person said "indeed"), and not, say, "indeed"?
16:51:19 <ehird> ?person said "indeed"
16:51:39 <ehird> select ?person, ?karma where { ?person :said "indeed" . ?person :karma ?karma . }
16:51:43 <ehird> oklopol: because "indeed" is a quoted string.
16:51:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Fungespace Query Language
16:52:05 <ehird> oklopol: well, what do you mean
16:52:14 <ehird> asiekierka: Trying to parse restricted English into SPARQL.
16:52:18 <oklopol> the person said "indeed", which is a funny word
16:52:29 <oklopol> (person said "indeed") is a funny word
16:52:38 <AnMaster> ehird, hm did I miss something had you on ignore still there
16:52:48 <oklopol> but here, "indeed" is the referent
16:52:50 <ehird> oklopol: the karma of the person who said "indeed"
16:53:00 <ehird> oklopol: phrase it in the other interpretation, i'll tell you how it parses down
16:53:24 <oklopol> phrase what in the other interpretation
16:53:36 <ehird> oklopol: the "karma of indeed" thing
16:53:39 <asiekierka> I wonder whether should i make an ircREGbotXY
16:53:43 <ehird> phrase it in the full english
16:53:47 <ehird> the karma of the person who said "indeD"
16:53:49 <AnMaster> "X > 2 & X < 5 & (Y > 5 | Y < 3)"
16:53:53 <AnMaster> 0"X > 2 & X < 5 & (Y > 5 | Y < 3)"S
16:54:03 <AnMaster> though it would actually be reversed
16:54:06 <oklopol> the karma of the "indeed" said by a person
16:54:41 <ehird> oklopol: -> karma of ("indeed" said by person)
16:55:18 <oklopol> ehird: so the *position* inside the parens was what made "person" the referent
16:55:20 <AnMaster> 0"(& (> X 2) (< X 5) (| (> Y 5) (< Y 3)))"S
16:55:26 <ehird> oklopol: uhh, yeah...
16:55:43 <oklopol> nevertheless, i have no idea what you're talking about :P
16:56:09 <ehird> oklopol: i'm trying to make it so that you'll be able to:
16:56:14 <ehird> botte, what is the karma of the person who said "indeed"?
16:56:19 <ehird> and it'll reply like
16:56:26 <ehird> <botte> person=ehird, karma=-454
16:56:30 <ehird> <botte> person=oklopol, karma=3478234234
16:56:30 <AnMaster> 0"(& (> X 2) (< X 5) (| (> Y 5) (< Y 3)))"S to return a list of (top of stack first) Count,X,Y,Value,X,Y,Value
16:56:36 <ehird> <botte> person=botte, karma=STACK OVERFLOW
16:56:45 <AnMaster> so total cell count 3 * Count + 1 (for count itself)
16:56:50 <ehird> oklopol: "said", here, refers to a complete line, actually
16:57:03 <AnMaster> ah wait, that wouldn't work for more than trefunge
16:57:09 <ehird> asiekierka: So low it overflow. :P
16:57:26 <oklopol> what is the karma of the person for whom it's true that e happened to say "indeed" at some point
16:57:31 <asiekierka> So low it overflows, for the good of water flows.
16:57:46 <asiekierka> Uh... That didn't make any sense, but it RHYMES!
16:59:10 <asiekierka> Except if we modify either regular expressions or add a command.
16:59:22 <ehird> <oklopol> what is the karma of the person for whom it's true that e happened to say "indeed" at some point
16:59:27 <ehird> at this point botte says "go fuck yourself".
17:00:42 <oklopol> my INTERNET IS NOT working :<
17:00:50 <ehird> oklopol: you could just say "what's the karma of the person who said 'indeed'"
17:01:20 <asiekierka> RWLR -> RLWR... Read Left, Write Right... hmm...
17:02:30 <asiekierka> An useless language. ^ - input a char, put it in the current cell, and move left. If you're at 0, move to the end of the cell memory. AND v - Write the current cell, and move right. If you're at the end of the cell memory, move to 0. THIS IS USELESS!!!
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17:03:30 <oklopol> asiekierka: yeah sounds pretty useless
17:03:30 <ehird> oklopol: here is my current stoopid parser thingy
17:03:31 <ehird> ('the ?', lambda x: x),
17:03:31 <ehird> ('? of ?', lambda x, y: Of(x, y)),
17:04:59 <oklopol> ehird: "? of ?" is pretty useful :P
17:05:05 <ehird> oklopol: whaddya mean :-p
17:05:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm what happened to ais523? Got any idea why the bouncer isn't connected?
17:05:31 <ehird> AnMaster: FOR FUCKS SAKE AIS523 IS NOT YOUR PERSONAL IRC-BUDDY
17:05:37 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo
17:05:38 <ehird> IF THE BOUNCER ISN'T CONNECTED THAT'S BECAUSE HE'S DOING SOMETHING ELSE, OKAY?
17:05:49 <ehird> oklopol: what about it
17:05:50 <AnMaster> ehird, when did I claim he was?
17:05:52 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[>[.>]<[<]>]
17:05:54 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:05:55 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:06:06 <ehird> AnMaster: When you implied that ais523 doing something than being on irc is a total anomaly.
17:06:25 <ehird> oklopol: 'a of b and c of d' would be:
17:06:32 <AnMaster> ehird, usually the bouncer is still connected. But that wasn't the case
17:06:39 <ehird> oklopol: And(Of(a,b), Of(c,d))
17:06:48 <asiekierka> ^ctcp rocks ... I SEE NEW COMMANDS WERE ADDED.
17:06:50 <oklopol> ehird: and why exactly would it be that?
17:06:51 <ehird> AnMaster: because he /parted here when psygnisfive was talking about sex.
17:06:53 <fungot> olololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololo ...
17:06:55 <ehird> oklopol: why wouldn't it be?
17:07:00 <fungot> siekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierka ...
17:07:28 <oklopol> ehird: because it could just as well be
17:07:36 <ehird> oklopol: could just as well be what
17:07:55 <ehird> oklopol: that's why there's precedence
17:08:02 <fizzie> Oh, I added cho and choo (they used to be called echochohoo and echo_cho_ho_o) back today.
17:08:26 <ehird> oklopol: stuff higher up the parser list gets chosen first.
17:08:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ATHR will have issues for y, basically the bounds will be async updated.
17:09:08 <oklopol> "higher up the parser list"
17:09:12 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
17:09:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, I personally don't really care much what 'y' says.
17:09:16 <ehird> ('the ?', lambda x: x),
17:09:22 <ehird> stuff coming first gets changed first.
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17:09:52 <asiekierka> there's a space between _ and $ though
17:10:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, well issue is that you have to select at command line if you want ATHR support, there is no way to not make this utterly slow or async, And since async when ATHR isn't loaded would mess up with mycology... Well.
17:10:45 <ehird> AnMaster: s/well issue/the issue/
17:11:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I got an idea for semaphores: The library may have more than one copy of some books in stock.
17:11:34 <ehird> AnMaster: s/got/have/
17:11:57 <oklopol> actually that could be a literal "got"
17:11:57 <asiekierka> It has control flow by... walls. Somehow
17:12:08 <oklopol> say you got the idea yesterday or something
17:12:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, a 2D language where the IP reflects according to the law of physics?
17:12:47 <AnMaster> you need some way to make it have a non-trivial speed, direction and so on
17:12:50 <ehird> oklopol: 'i thought of an idea'
17:13:08 <oklopol> "befunge on reals", does that sound enough like "ruby on rails" to be a pun?
17:13:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and all cells it intersects with on the way... Well those it will execute the instruction in
17:13:35 <AnMaster> even if that isn't what you thought it is a nice idea
17:14:11 <asiekierka> DOBELA - DOt-Based Esoteric LAnguage, a proposed name
17:14:13 <oklopol> ehird: "got" is fine, your mother and your face
17:14:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh naming something cat is a bad idea, since that is the tool used dump files to the terminal on *nix. Like type in cmd.exe (if you use windows)
17:14:41 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> A cat program looks like:
17:14:48 <ehird> AnMaster: ... idiot
17:14:56 <ehird> he implemented cat in that language
17:15:14 <asiekierka> The example in rafb is a oversized version of "cat", just to show all of it's features :)
17:15:16 <oklopol> AnMaster: pretty common esolang terminology
17:15:35 <oklopol> i knew what a cat program was before knowing the util
17:15:50 <asiekierka> And dots rotate when HITTING a wall, of course.
17:15:58 <asiekierka> And my language calls bits "dots". Huh, weird.
17:16:08 <asiekierka> Though they do look like dots, but that's another problem
17:16:11 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I think you need mirrors
17:16:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well "90 degrees" hm :/
17:16:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what if dots collide?
17:17:06 <asiekierka> Uh... Well, thanks for telling me that, i think they start moving in a reverse direction
17:17:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I think 0 and 1 colliding should destroy each other
17:17:34 <AnMaster> like the particle and the anti-particle
17:17:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 1 and 1 or 0 and 0 I'm not sure about
17:18:03 <AnMaster> so maybe you want to follow electromagnetic rules?
17:18:12 <AnMaster> so 1 and 1 attach to each other creating a wall?
17:18:32 <asiekierka> 0 and 1 colliding will destroy each other
17:18:33 <AnMaster> 0 and 0 would also create a wall that way
17:18:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no doesn't work if they destroy each other
17:19:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no I think the wall should be between those cells :D
17:19:53 <asiekierka> Because it'll be like: , . | , . OR , . | ,.
17:20:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also those the wall need a charge. So if you have a 2x0 and it it with an 1 you get a 0 particle going in the opposite direction of the 1
17:21:32 <asiekierka> So if they collide . . it's created inbetween
17:21:35 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not in either cell, just between
17:22:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you are using integer coordinates?
17:22:45 <AnMaster> ok anyway this made me get an idea for another language
17:22:56 <AnMaster> basically your instruction pointer is a photon
17:23:17 <AnMaster> it will bounce on all walls as if they were mirrors
17:23:40 <AnMaster> the space is filled with some instructions
17:23:52 <AnMaster> so each instruction that it illuminates,,, is executed
17:24:12 <AnMaster> it will allow non-trivial angles for bouncing
17:24:23 <AnMaster> so it needs a proper intersection test
17:24:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what do you think of this idea?
17:24:50 <asiekierka> but i didn't have physics at school YET
17:25:12 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/GKrMDk84.html - DOBILA (sorry for the misspell) docs v.2
17:25:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, the input angle to the normal is the same as the output angle, except at the opposite side
17:25:54 <asiekierka> So i added an instruction, EXCEPTIONS and the uncommented example
17:26:05 <asiekierka> To see how it'd look like in a normal text file
17:26:13 <asiekierka> Oh, and any other chars are ignored, treated like space.
17:26:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there is an alignment error in your paste
17:27:00 <AnMaster> "$ - Takes up dots. When it gets 8 of dots, it outputs chars based on them, in FIFO."
17:27:08 <AnMaster> this implies each $ is separate
17:27:22 <AnMaster> but then the example isn't cat
17:27:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also in the commented example you got a timing issue
17:27:48 <AnMaster> the 1 and 0 wouldn't reach their $ at the same time
17:27:55 <AnMaster> since the path is longer for 1
17:29:14 <asiekierka> The only example i wouldn't "explain", and leave it for the interpreters, is that how _ outputs dots
17:29:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, another idea: have = accelerate the dots to double its current speed if particle enter horizontally, and have it decelerate to half the speed if the dots enter vertically
17:29:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, how do you do flow control?
17:30:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, since that is trivially non-turing complete
17:30:27 <AnMaster> well you need 1) flow control and 2) storage I think
17:30:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, how can you store one in a "variable" to retrieve it later?
17:31:05 <asiekierka> I could make a command to retrieve a dot from the FIFO
17:31:18 <AnMaster> wouldn't help as the fifo is limited in size
17:31:53 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway all you can do with # is to sort dots.
17:32:55 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ideas that may help: 1) something to flip a 0 to a 1 and vice versa. 2) have some sort of wall that when it is hit from one direction changes the way 0 and 1 reflects (for left/right)
17:33:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also for .. note they only destroy each other if traveling in opposite directions
17:33:58 <AnMaster> or you can't have two directly after each other traveling same way
17:34:03 <AnMaster> or one traveling up and the other down
17:34:26 <asiekierka> And i'm removing "_". Its behavior was too confusing.
17:34:32 <AnMaster> you could get input really fast
17:36:01 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway you need something so that one 1 or 0 can affect another one, like | if hit from above then it will make everything that hits it horizontally go down, if it is hit from below it will everything that hits it horizontally go up
17:36:18 <AnMaster> to allow a loop that you could retrieve data from
17:37:41 <asiekierka> to be transported to the other transporter
17:37:49 <asiekierka> Otherwise, it's ignored, except if \ hit from south
17:38:08 <AnMaster> well, I leave it up to you to make it TC :)
17:38:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, the | I suggested would be able to create a loop
17:39:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I think infinite space could work for that
17:39:28 <AnMaster> assuming the infinite space wraps around
17:40:09 <AnMaster> but anyway, you could use a group of walls to create a storage loop for tos
17:40:37 <asiekierka> When ^ is hit west or east - behavior left!
17:40:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, How would you generate a dot?
17:41:13 <asiekierka> I also have an idea how to make ^ more useful
17:41:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also you removed _ but it is still in the example
17:42:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway two dots that are next to each other shouldn't cause a collision unless their paths are intersecting
17:42:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, as for "The infinite space wraps around." I don't think that actually works
17:43:01 <AnMaster> it wouldn't be implementable for dots for a start
17:43:29 <asiekierka> ^ can stop/start the ones/zeros generators
17:43:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you only need one of ; and :
17:43:49 <AnMaster> since you could use = to convert them
17:44:12 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also does = make the dots pass through it ?
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17:44:55 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/ApA5d942.html - so you can catch on
17:45:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well I'm far from sure if that is tc or not any longer at least
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17:45:31 <AnMaster> I bet ais523 could help you better
17:47:08 <asiekierka> also, in |, i meant Dots, when hitting | north/south, are destroyed.
17:47:47 <AnMaster> The least point and greatest point as reported by y may also be asynchronously
17:47:47 <AnMaster> updated. This may be true even if no threads have been created. If that is the
17:47:47 <AnMaster> case, the implementation should offer a command line option for supporting ATHR
17:47:47 <AnMaster> (async updates), and a sync update mode (using ATHR results in undefined
17:48:02 <AnMaster> that is the only way I can resolve that issue in
17:48:49 <ais523> asiekierka: how do you plan to do infinite storage?
17:49:03 <ais523> as far as I can see, the FIFO holds infinite data
17:49:07 <ais523> but there's no way to find out what it is
17:49:10 <ais523> apart from telling the user
17:49:34 <asiekierka> you can't output from the FIFO without I/O... yet
17:50:11 <AnMaster> everything else worked fine so far, but this is really a blocker for me, how to update bounds for funge space so it works for other stuff.
17:50:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm currently trying to process demands from 5 people at once
17:50:39 <ais523> and catch up on about 120 emails
17:50:46 <AnMaster> async works fine, but will change stuff even if ATHR isn't loaded
17:51:41 <ais523> AnMaster: least and greatest point on y is a very non-Befungy thing for me
17:51:49 <ais523> to me, Fungespace is conceptually infinite
17:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yet they are in the core spec, mycology tests it.
17:52:09 <ais523> the fact that practically it's finite and dynamically updated is not really relevant
17:52:21 <Deewiant> ais523: it's so that you can use o to dump the non-empty part of funge-space
17:52:22 <ais523> even the Funge-98 spec says that space needn't be dynamically updated, although it usually is
17:52:45 <asiekierka> in ZERO/ONE dots, i meant rotates instead of moves
17:53:24 <ais523> asiekierka: my answer now is probably, but I'd have to give it more thought
17:53:31 <ais523> it seems reasonable that you could use the FIFO as a Minsky machine
17:53:45 <ais523> and use a different part of your playfield as a finite-state machine to control it
17:53:55 <ais523> but I'd have to implement it to be sure
17:54:15 <asiekierka> But i don't know programming THIS WELL to make one
17:55:02 <asiekierka> Newscaster: IMPORTANT NEWS! Asiekierka died from a heart attack after reading that he codes his interpreter, but he doesn't know dynamic programming! Causer yet unknown.
17:55:17 <asiekierka> I don't know dynamic variables very well
17:55:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still I assume you think async updated bounds in y is a bad thing when ATHR isn't loaded?
17:55:36 <asiekierka> Each dot holding an X/Y register, and the rotation counter
17:55:55 <AnMaster> actually it is a bad thing anyway... hm
17:55:56 <asiekierka> With the generators, it could possibly PWN your memory.
17:56:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, yeah, of course. Something giving wrong results unpredictably is generally not a good thing :-P
17:56:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from bounds everything worked well so far
17:56:49 * AnMaster needs to consider bounds some more
17:56:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so you've been lucky :-P
17:57:09 <Deewiant> unless you can prove it never happens, your program is incorrect
17:57:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well pretty well, usual amount of typo bugs and such of course.
17:57:22 <AnMaster> anyway I could make it sync and slower
17:59:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and you want either a hash array or a tree structure
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17:59:48 <AnMaster> and of course : could fill memory
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18:00:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some sort of compare and exchange would work for bounds, except that is non-trivial in erlang
18:00:34 <AnMaster> asiekierka: <AnMaster> asiekierka, and you want either a hash array or a tree structure <AnMaster> and of course : could fill memory
18:00:40 <AnMaster> : filling memory is a user fault
18:00:58 <AnMaster> You'd want some way to discard bits if you don't already have it
18:01:00 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA - Working on the Wiki thread
18:01:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and you want to rate limit : to every other cell
18:01:32 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what if you want to destroy without outputting to fifo?
18:02:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ais523: Another idea I had for another fingerprint: Fungespace Query Language
18:03:40 <AnMaster> "(& (> $1 2) (< $1 5) (| (> $2 5) (< $2 3)))" Using $1 and $2 instead of x/y for reasons for n-funge for n > 3
18:04:02 <AnMaster> also the value v would mean "value of cell is"
18:04:43 <AnMaster> return a list of (top of stack first) Count,X,Y,...,Value,X,Y,...,Value
18:04:51 <AnMaster> where ... are any more dimensions needed
18:05:07 <AnMaster> Count,...Y,X,Value,...Y,X,Value
18:07:35 <AnMaster> Hm, I wonder how insanely slow using a full blown database for fungespace would be
18:09:09 <asiekierka> What are the categories DOBELA could be assigned to?
18:10:27 <asiekierka> Stack-based, Unknown computational class, Two-dimensional languages, Unimplemented...
18:11:32 <asiekierka> Queue-based, Unknown computational class, Two-dimensional languages, Unimplemented
18:11:45 <ais523> it's queue-based and 2D
18:12:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, nor does RUBE does it?
18:12:23 <ais523> AnMaster: cellular automata don't have FIFOs
18:13:01 <ais523> yes, Category:Languages
18:13:18 <asiekierka> Since i made it... uh... today, right?
18:13:54 <asiekierka> I think i should make a hello world, but it's... Too easy!
18:14:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I had an idea for another language, it could be 2D or 3D and would use a particle, say a photon or something else, that bounced on the perfect mirror walls, and either you would need to trace it's path, seeing what instructions in the room it intersected with to find out what instructions were executed
18:14:17 <asiekierka> By default, they move... east, or south?
18:14:25 <AnMaster> ais523, flow control by flippable mirrors
18:14:31 <ais523> AnMaster: seen BackFlip?
18:14:41 <AnMaster> ais523, it will allow non-trivial paths
18:15:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also you would have to consider refraction index of the materials
18:15:10 <asiekierka> Also, as generators make dots that move east
18:15:19 <AnMaster> ais523, however the photon wouldn't be absorbed
18:15:44 <asiekierka> Because it's meand to be useful, actually
18:16:00 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think of this idea?
18:16:02 <asiekierka> That's how you make a Hello, World in my language
18:16:18 <ais523> AnMaster: relatively interesting
18:16:24 <ais523> I'm kind of distracted atm, though
18:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, it could also be made to have several photons, and have lamps and such
18:16:31 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523|busy.
18:16:58 <AnMaster> however asiekierka didn't seem to find it interesting at all, which is odd
18:18:12 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, further I think instructions should be possible to place at non-integer coordinates, same for walls, flippable mirrors and such
18:18:44 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, yes, but that uses different parts of physics
18:18:50 <AnMaster> I'm unsure how to actually handle the infinite memory
18:19:18 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, since I want this photon language to be TC
18:21:02 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, I think declaring everything as some sort of list of tuples, or maybe in S-Expressions are the only sane way
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18:22:27 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA
18:22:52 <AnMaster> (additem-direction Type X Y Z DirX DirY DirZ)
18:23:14 <AnMaster> (additem-volume Type minX minY minZ maxX maxY maxZ)
18:23:21 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, maybe something like that?
18:23:28 <AnMaster> and possible extra parameters in some other way
18:24:21 <AnMaster> probably just specific (lamp '(x y z) '(x y z) '(r b g) intensity)
18:24:32 <AnMaster> probably in photons per second or such
18:25:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, patterns would be like regex ones I suspect
18:25:34 <oklopol> asiekierka: computation cannot add new dots
18:25:53 <oklopol> you will just have the dots you had initially, or less.
18:26:03 <oklopol> you need to add some breeding rules
18:26:06 <asiekierka> and switch whether you do it and you don't
18:26:14 <AnMaster> : - Generates ones east by default.
18:26:18 <asiekierka> And you can also use = or switch whenever it's zero or one
18:26:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, generate one dots to the east
18:26:55 <AnMaster> I said it should have a rate of every other turn
18:27:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, since .. is defined as #
18:27:11 <oklopol> this whole things is fully static
18:27:17 <oklopol> i cannot see any computation
18:27:24 <asiekierka> :. then : . then :. . then : . . then :. . .
18:27:28 <oklopol> there's no changing the environment
18:27:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, ais523 suggested it may be possible to simulate minsky in it
18:27:39 <oklopol> there's just a few dots going in circles
18:28:13 <AnMaster> right you fixed that then ais523|busy
18:28:13 <asiekierka> I think that may mean it is self-modifying
18:28:14 <ais523|busy> if it isn't TC, it's due to lack of working flow control
18:28:48 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, If I make Photon I need your help I bet working out what is needed
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18:29:27 <oklopol> | has a state which can be changed by hitting it from a certain direction?
18:29:38 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA
18:29:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, I suggested that one as a way to be able to redirect
18:30:41 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 1) implement a interpreter for it 2) implement a TC complete language in it
18:30:42 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:31:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway what did you think of my Photon language?
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18:31:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 1) implement a interpreter for it 2) implement a TC complete language in it
18:31:56 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well that is your own problem
18:32:05 <AnMaster> you can't expect someone else to do it for you
18:32:37 <AnMaster> like befunge and this Photon language idea I had
18:33:35 <ehird> asiekierka: are you unable to code?
18:33:55 <asiekierka> i just don't know enough programming to do it
18:34:39 <ehird> So, you are unable to code.
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18:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you represent the angle of an object in a 3D space. Say a lamp with a position (x, y, z) but what should be used for the angle it is pointing towards?
18:42:44 <ehird> In degrees or radians or something.
18:43:03 <AnMaster> polar coordinates or something sounds familiar
18:43:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh? I'm sorry but my 3D maths are kind of rusty (ie, never existed) :(
18:43:50 <oklopol> a vector that points to where ever the object is headed
18:44:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, would that be same as normalised vector?
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18:44:31 <AnMaster> just trying to refresh memory there, since that sounds familiar
18:45:28 <oklopol> normalization is just making the length 1
18:45:53 <oklopol> in any-dimensional vectors
18:47:18 <AnMaster> for rate of lamps that emit single photons and have a perfect exit direction (no spread)
18:47:21 <AnMaster> -- Parameters Coordinates, Direction, Wavelength, nanoseconds between each photon
18:47:21 <AnMaster> (lamp '(x y z) '(x y z) wavelength time)
18:47:41 <ehird> AnMaster: um, make your parameters self-describing
18:47:52 <ehird> coords direction wave-length (not sure for the last one)
18:47:55 <AnMaster> ehird, that was just an example, would have numbers there
18:48:30 <AnMaster> it is either that or some sort of tuples
18:49:02 <AnMaster> numbers are either integers or double (at least)
18:49:20 <AnMaster> ehird, so either scheme-ish S-Expressions
18:49:55 <AnMaster> ehird, you add objects, flow control by mirrors that flip when photons hit them
18:50:21 <AnMaster> refraction index should be correctly handled for objects too
18:50:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I think this language could be fairly interesting, and ais523|busy said as much above
18:52:20 <oklopol> can you go over the elements that do the actual computation?
18:52:26 <oklopol> something about flippable mirrors
18:52:36 <oklopol> i think i heard something like that
18:52:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, well flipped by photons
18:52:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, and yes I plan to break the laws of physics if I have to to make it tc
18:53:02 <AnMaster> because the plan is to make it tc
18:53:07 <AnMaster> far from all the details are worked out
18:53:10 <oklopol> a photon hits a certain kind of mirror, and it will rotate?
18:53:32 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, well I think this one should be computable if you do ray-tracing
18:53:34 <oklopol> okay, that sounds like computation, but it also sounds unprogrammable
18:53:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean to act on photons?
18:54:33 <AnMaster> since that would make it a LOT harder to implement, if not even unimplementable
18:54:45 <oklopol> yes not to mention it would be pointless
18:55:07 <Deewiant> gravity should act on the objects but not the photons ;-P
18:55:20 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, anyway I plan to make it tc and possible to implement, even if messily hard to program in and messily hard to implement
18:55:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: no real reason, just my gut talking
18:55:31 <Deewiant> the photons will catch up until the program's been running so long they're moving at light speed
18:55:47 <AnMaster> "The photons travel at the speed of light (for the given material). Since this
18:55:47 <AnMaster> is too fast to be able to simulate in real time for current computers running
18:55:47 <AnMaster> the simulation at a slower speed is allowed."
18:55:52 <AnMaster> from the draft I'm *trying to write*
18:56:01 <ais523|busy> I wonder if it will be easier or harder to implement than Feather
18:56:35 <ais523|busy> anyway, I think I've figured out how to prevent Feather going into an infinite loop (as opposed to arbitrary loop) when it parses the parser with itself
18:56:55 <ais523|busy> make the parser property of an object be the parser it was parsed with
18:57:11 <ehird> ais523|busy: uh, just make it parse the parser with the previous parser
18:57:15 <ais523|busy> basically, it's a loop that runs a finite number of times
18:57:16 <ehird> then parse the parser with the current parser
18:57:20 <ehird> until oldparser == newparser
18:57:27 <ehird> (i.e. reparse until the parsing stabalizes)
18:57:29 <AnMaster> anyway, lamps (single photons at a given rate, with possibly a max count), surfaces (perfect mirrors or perfect absorbers), flippable mirrors, and volumes (transparent, with a given refraction index)
18:57:30 <ais523|busy> but you can retroactively change how many times it ran
18:57:51 <ais523|busy> thus it's effectively an infinite loop that runs in finite time, if you ever find that it didn't run far enough you change your mind about how far it ran
18:58:00 <ais523|busy> ehird: oldparser will never == newparser, probably
18:58:28 <ehird> ais523|busy: i doubt it
18:58:32 <ehird> ais523|busy: if you just add some new syntax, but don't use it in the parser, then it'll work immediately
18:58:44 <ehird> if you make it parse a certain construct differently
18:58:49 <ehird> but include a backwards compatibility clause
18:58:52 <ehird> it'll immediately stabalize
18:58:56 <ehird> then remove the backwards-compat clause
18:59:00 <ehird> and since its running on the new parser, it'll work.
18:59:51 <ais523|busy> ehird: how do you compare functions for equality, again?
19:00:06 <ehird> you compare the parsetree.
19:00:28 <ais523|busy> it's a function which maps strings to functions
19:00:39 <ehird> ais523|busy: well, just do a dumb compare then
19:00:41 <ehird> for exact equality
19:01:19 <ehird> i want to add a mega super syntax to the parser
19:01:25 <ehird> i add it, but i also use it in the parser at the same time
19:01:35 <ehird> i write the expanded form in a guard checkign for the old parser version
19:01:45 <ehird> so it runs, uses the expanded form, runs it again, oh, now it uses the non-expanded shortcut
19:01:50 <ehird> and then next time its stable
19:01:54 <ehird> so then you can remove the backwards-compat guard
19:01:59 <ehird> and it'll work immediately
19:03:29 <oklopol> i've been there occasionally
19:03:59 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, Deewiant, oklopol: http://rafb.net/p/jap3S630.html
19:04:09 <AnMaster> comments and suggestions please
19:04:51 <AnMaster> I probably want some form of stdout too, but possibly no stdin
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19:06:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Make the format something like this:
19:06:56 <ehird> [ lamp location: (X,Y,Z) direction: (X,Y,Z) wavelength: Foo time: Foo count: Foo ]
19:06:58 <AnMaster> (also there shouldn't be a , after time in the s-expression example, that was a typo
19:07:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that is hard to parse, ideally I want something prefix based
19:07:25 <ais523|busy> lamp(vector(X,Y,Z),direction(X,Y,Z),Foo,Foo,Foo)
19:07:25 <ehird> ais523|busy: Kind of a blend of lisp/smalltalk/n3/prolog.
19:07:27 <oklopol> THERE IS A THING CALLED LAMP
19:07:32 <oklopol> IT HAS THIS THING CALLED LOCATION
19:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: That is not hard to parse.
19:07:38 <oklopol> WHICH IS AS FOLLOWS: (x, y, z)
19:07:39 <ehird> first node is the type of thing
19:07:42 <ehird> the rest of KEY: VALUE
19:07:52 <ehird> it's just s-expressions with labels.
19:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, so lets make that proper
19:08:17 <ais523|busy> ehird: Prolog is sexp too, but it uses comma not space and the first element is outside the parens
19:08:21 <oklopol> heh, was scared for a sec there
19:08:29 <oklopol> thought it was asiekierka suggesting the prolog
19:08:43 <ehird> ais523|busy: Hi. I know prolog.
19:09:04 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, so lets make that proper
19:09:07 <AnMaster> ehird, (lamp (list (list location (list X Y Z))
19:09:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because that is pig ugly and pointless
19:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so is your format IMO :)
19:09:34 <ehird> [<type> <key>: <value> <key>: <value>]
19:09:39 <ehird> Simple. Readable. Easily indentable
19:09:59 <ehird> direction: (X,Y,Z)
19:10:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you could just shut up instead?
19:10:57 <AnMaster> or you could contribute to the language
19:11:09 <ehird> Or I could talk about things unrelated to that language in #esoteric.
19:11:09 <AnMaster> or you could just ignore me I guess and go on talking format
19:11:27 <AnMaster> what other objects are needed to make it tc
19:11:27 <ehird> Well, if I wanted to help you with your language before I certainly don't know.
19:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well as I said, lets just leave format till later? ok?
19:12:28 <ehird> You're implying that I want an indepth discussion about it as opposed to merely glancing at it and having one opinion.
19:12:31 <AnMaster> I have no intention to offend you, nor anyone else.
19:13:02 <ehird> What are you even talking about?
19:13:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed offended at that I wanted to leave file format for later?
19:16:40 * ais523|busy wonders about what punctuation and capitalisation for hello world programs is most important
19:17:14 <ehird> grammatically correct, elegant, etc
19:17:20 <ais523|busy> and "Hello World!" is the other one I see from time to time
19:17:24 <AnMaster> ehird, the , there seems odd to me
19:17:35 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's valid
19:17:46 <AnMaster> well what does it mean exactly there
19:17:51 <ais523|busy> AnMaster: when talking to someone, often you put their name at the end of the sentence, with a comma
19:18:09 <ais523|busy> if I met ehird in RL, the English equivalent would be
19:18:31 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, you could start with the name too in English, couldn't you?
19:18:32 <ehird> ais523|busy: Addressing me as ehird IRL would be a bit weird.
19:18:34 <ehird> Especially as it's not easy to pronounce.
19:19:28 <AnMaster> Possible yes, not that easy though
19:19:58 <ehird> ais523|busy: "Elliott" is quicker to say than "ehird", actually.
19:19:59 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, xwrt is even shorter, is it easier?
19:20:39 <ais523|busy> ehird: ehird is just pronounced as "e heard", or that's how I pronounce it mentally
19:21:03 <ais523|busy> maybe I've got good at it from thinking it so often
19:21:07 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, saying a lone "e" isn't all that easy
19:21:25 <ehird> ais523|busy: i generally don't think your name as it takes ages to pronounce
19:21:32 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, not in front of h
19:21:35 <ais523|busy> heh, I think it even though it takes ages to pronounce
19:21:37 <ehird> IRL I'd probably word sentences to avoid mentioning a name at all.
19:21:58 <ehird> ^^ POLITICALLY RELEVANT JOKE ^^
19:22:08 <ais523|busy> heh, ais523 takes even longer to pronounce then AnMaster
19:22:22 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, my nick isn't meant to pronounce
19:22:38 <oklopol> i'm called oklopol irl too
19:22:42 <ais523|busy> but I've grown to like it for all sorts of purposes
19:22:48 <ais523|busy> oklopol: are you called oklofok and oklocod too?
19:22:49 <ehird> Whatever do you mean, ay eye ess five two three pipe busy?
19:22:51 <oklopol> also with my irl name of course
19:22:57 <oklopol> and also occasionally veli lasol
19:23:07 <ehird> oklopol: how do you pronounce oklopol, "ock lo pohl"?
19:23:18 <ais523|busy> AnMaster: I think it's faster to pronounce than ais523, but harder
19:23:32 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, I think it is impossible
19:23:39 <ais523|busy> ehird: I pronounce it like that but with a short o at the end
19:23:40 <ehird> AnMaster: not hard
19:23:41 <oklopol> finnish is pronounced as it's written, characters are pronounced as in lojban
19:23:57 <ais523|busy> oklôpol, where the accent indicates a long vowel
19:24:11 <oklopol> ah well "poll" is how it's pronounced
19:24:19 <ehird> oklopol: depends how you pronounce poll
19:24:23 <ehird> oklopol: just record the pronounciation
19:24:24 <oklopol> except the "p" is not aspirated
19:24:42 <AnMaster> I could pronounce oklopol easily
19:25:03 <oklopol> "b" is a non-aspirated, voiced "p", in english
19:25:17 <ehird> oklopol: record a pronounciation
19:25:20 <ais523|busy> so it's a case of consonants differing slightly between languages
19:25:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is *easy* to pronounce "oklopol" in Swedish
19:25:30 <AnMaster> probably not what you want though
19:25:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but you may pronounce it wrong, as "o" can also be "u"
19:25:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah I wouldn't do it like that
19:25:58 <oklopol> yeah then it's probably correct
19:28:58 <oklopol> ais523|busy: also the emphasis is on OKlopol
19:29:03 * ais523|busy tries to think up other ways to pronounce oklopol
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19:32:35 <ais523> an argument about how to pronounce "oklopol"
19:32:46 <ais523> and AnMaster starting off a new lang
19:32:54 <asiekierka> Can anyone please think whether DOBELA is TC
19:33:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm preparing another draft
19:33:51 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you call a cube based on a non-square rectangle in English?
19:34:11 <AnMaster> not all sides need to be the same
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19:34:43 <ais523> if you mean a shape made from 6 rectangles
19:34:44 <fizzie> Also called "rectangular prism".
19:35:22 <ais523> if you have 6 parallelograms, so it's tilted, you get a parallelepiped
19:35:30 <ais523> which isn't a very commonly used word, but it's great fun to say
19:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, should I give refraction index or speed of light?
19:37:06 <ais523> probably refraction index
19:37:10 <fizzie> Heh: "As of 2005, no example of a perfect cuboid had been found and no one had proven that it cannot exist. Exhaustive computer searches have proven that the smallest edge of the perfect box is at least 4.3 billion."
19:37:39 <fizzie> There certainly seem to be a lot of things that are not yet known. Those mathematicians ought to start getting things done.
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19:38:08 <Asztal> yeah, they should get around to finding those odd perfect numbers too
19:38:14 <fizzie> A perfect cuboid is one where the edges, face dianogals and the space diagonal are all integers.
19:38:28 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/fkwcwc/eclipple.mp3 A 3 in one deal. Correct followed by incorrect pronounciations of "oklopol" and "ehird", followed by the incorruptable "ais523".
19:38:31 <ehird> oklopol: is my pronouncuation of oklopol right
19:38:53 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? I plan to make sure that it calculates for the different refraction you get depending the wavelength of the photon
19:40:00 <ehird> AnMaster: my intentionally-bad pronounciation of oklopol
19:40:30 <ais523> ehird: are you female, or are my headphones broken?
19:40:35 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/cZIzpE66.html
19:40:43 <ehird> ais523: i'm a 13-year-old with an abnormally high voice.
19:40:49 <fizzie> "If it looks like a girl, sounds like a girl, ..."
19:40:53 <ehird> your headphones may or may not be broken.
19:41:01 <oklopol> ehird: the first one is about right
19:41:08 <fizzie> And quacks like a duck. (Disclaimer: didn't listen to it yet.)
19:41:10 <ehird> oklopol: 'about' right? :-P
19:41:34 <Asztal> he said the middle o was a long vowel, IIRC
19:42:08 <Asztal> ok, someone else said :)
19:42:11 <oklopol> why would a short o be long?
19:42:35 <oklopol> it's how a finnish child would say oklopol
19:42:43 <ehird> i am a finnish child!
19:42:49 <AnMaster> ~/tmp/oklopol.raw: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 8 bit, mono 8000 Hz
19:42:52 <ehird> fizzie: You said something about quacking? http://filebin.ca/tkdpj/quack.mp3
19:42:55 <AnMaster> do you think you can play that?
19:42:59 <Deewiant> sounds like "okhlopoll" or something
19:43:06 <ehird> AnMaster: You could just use lame(1) to give an mp3, you know.
19:43:07 <oklopol> didn't notice it because of the l
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19:43:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm pretty sure i can
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19:44:23 <ehird> fizzie: Though that quack isn't very...quacky.
19:44:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Make a wav first, then.
19:44:56 <ehird> lame has an option for raw input
19:45:17 <ehird> [[Sampling rate and
19:45:17 <ehird> mono/stereo/jstereo must be specified on the command line.]]
19:45:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: "joint stereo".
19:45:43 <ehird> Deewiant: joint stereo
19:45:47 <ehird> the newer versiony thing of stereo
19:46:00 <ehird> AnMaster: ok. lame -r -s 8 -m j foo.raw foo.mp3 for further reference
19:46:15 <AnMaster> ehird, noise too, that was one I tested
19:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: your voice is weird
19:46:42 <AnMaster> so bad quality of recording too
19:46:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that page crashed my firefox
19:46:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's cheating. :p (For the high frequency part, there's no real stereo, just a single channel + panning.)
19:47:13 <ehird> fizzie: iirc, it actually produces better quality
19:47:18 <ehird> and smaller filesizes
19:47:26 <fizzie> Better quality for the same bitrate, maybe.
19:47:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, says the person who was astonished that I wasn't going to make my site work in IE..
19:47:44 <Deewiant> ahh, AnMaster sounds so swedish :-D
19:47:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it doesn't crash my firefox 2
19:48:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: stress on the first syllable
19:48:03 <AnMaster> so no clue why it crashes your
19:48:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for me firefox 2 opens a download dialog
19:48:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you need to stress the first syllable
19:48:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what do I stress now?
19:49:03 <AnMaster> well if I stress the first one, it would sound English
19:49:06 <Deewiant> and then your o's just sound all swedish but I guess that can't be helped :-P
19:49:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in finnish, all words have the stress on the first syllable
19:49:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I could say it in English I guess
19:50:08 <oklopol> AnMaster: in english the vowels would be completely wrong
19:50:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vdXZk <-- in English
19:50:32 * AnMaster wonders if ehird thinks that sound less strange
19:50:47 <ehird> AnMaster: oklopol uses windows.
19:50:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well I guess he could save it to disk
19:51:06 <ehird> AnMaster: And then how do you propose he opens it?
19:51:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, englishy o's, I was going to say that next
19:51:15 <AnMaster> ehird, there is vlc or mplayer iirc
19:51:22 <oklopol> vlc should be able to play it
19:51:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: the sound is really quiet
19:51:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really? sounded fine here
19:51:58 <Asztal> I used media player classic, that seemed to work.
19:52:10 <asiekierka> How's DOBELA? And how do YOU spell DOBELA
19:52:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: like said, replay gain put +16 decibels, and that's just analysing the sound
19:52:53 <ehird> asiekierka: he spells it DOBELA
19:52:56 <Deewiant> asiekierka: you probably meant something other than 'spell'
19:53:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, I can replay it just fine at a moderate volume in my headset
19:53:20 <fizzie> It is very quiet, yes. If you open it in audacity, the amplitude peaks go to something like 0.07, in the range [-1, 1].
19:53:23 <oklopol> just skip the aspiration and that's fine
19:53:49 <AnMaster> fizzie well... No clue about that
19:53:58 <ehird> My voice is very high: http://filebin.ca/rbccv/aaaaaa.mp3
19:53:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I don't, since I'm working on Photon
19:54:15 <AnMaster> ehird, "high volume" or "high pitch", or both?
19:54:25 <Deewiant> asiekierka: do-be-la where "be" is not pronounced like the english "be"
19:54:26 <asiekierka> oklopol: Just like me, but proper-englishfied, and i focus on "BEE"
19:54:40 <oklopol> ehird: that was awesome :)
19:54:42 <asiekierka> i pronounce it like "be" is pronounced like "bee"
19:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I got a very low pitched voice
19:54:49 <Deewiant> asiekierka: "be" as in "bet" here
19:55:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I think near low C iirc.
19:55:21 <ehird> all i know is that my throat hurts now
19:55:21 <AnMaster> but that was a few years ago, I almost reached it
19:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird, was that from encyclopedia btw?
19:55:58 <ehird> AnMaster: no... i made it
19:56:02 <ehird> with a microphone and audacity
19:56:13 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's because that's what i said
19:56:19 <ehird> i said "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
19:56:31 <oklopol> err wasn't it more like aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
19:56:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ah I thought you used uncyclopedia as a script for that performance ;P
19:57:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm maybe I should stress the *last* syllable
19:57:41 <fizzie> I pronounce it like "doobela" in Finnish; that would be something like "doo" as in the word "door", then "be" as in the word "bed", and then the "la" as in... uh, "last".
19:57:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: err, no, don't do that. ;-P
19:57:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not? It sounds fun
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19:58:17 <Deewiant> fizzie: american "last" is not that "la"
19:58:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, you can do whatever you want of course!
19:58:26 <ehird> oklopol: i am a mutant: http://filebin.ca/stzadm/aaaaaeriueuriuear.mp3
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19:58:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're right, I just couldn't figure out a good example there.
19:58:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about your nick?
19:59:03 <Deewiant> like "deviant", pronouncing "v" as "w" if you wish.
19:59:13 <ehird> oddly, http://filebin.ca/stzadm/aaaaaeriueuriuear.mp3 gets louder the lower my voice is
19:59:20 <ais523> yes, I pronounce it as "deviant" but with w not v
19:59:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay, it's closer that way. I was trying to think of words that I'd start with a "la"-like sound, but the only things that came to mind were "lament" and "lart".
20:00:36 <Deewiant> asiekierka: no, that's again wrong. :-P
20:01:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried to adjust sound levels.
20:01:20 <ais523> "fizzie" is easy to pronounce, I think
20:01:28 <ais523> I wonder if I pronounce it the same way as other people
20:01:35 <Deewiant> unless it's meant to be pronounced finnish-ly
20:01:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vdXZl
20:01:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about that for your nick?
20:01:59 <fizzie> ais523: People who use that name for me in real life just shorten it to "fiz"; like "fizz" but with a shorter buzz at the end.
20:02:18 <AnMaster> and yes I need to speak low to not disturb other ppl
20:02:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: replaygain gives only +10 dB now. :-)
20:02:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, that's what replay gain is for.
20:03:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as for pronounciation, I'm not really hearing the "i" but I guess it's fine
20:03:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah there is an option "mic boost +20 db"?
20:03:38 <Deewiant> that, and undo what you did previously to increase it
20:03:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "turning recording level from 90% to 100% for channel mic"
20:04:00 <asiekierka> Hmm. So, as it turns out, DOBELA is left alone. Until someone makes an interpreter of something for it. And comparison is going to be a neato task. See you, and I hope the challenge of DOBELA TC-proving may be solved
20:04:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ugh I just get a LOT of loud noise now
20:04:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so bring it to 85% and do the boost thing.
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20:04:32 <ehird> GASP! INTERPRETERS DO NOT WRITE THEMSELVES
20:05:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and yes, most people I've heard to say "fizzie" have done it pretty finnish-ly, when not abbreviating it. Like "fitsie", not "fisi".
20:05:32 <AnMaster> Omploaded 'fizzie.ogg' to http://omploader.org/vdXZm
20:05:47 <Deewiant> fizzie: oh, finnish "z" too, didn't even realize that one :-)
20:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, he should write it himself, as I suggested before
20:06:01 <ehird> AnMaster: he can't
20:06:04 <ehird> as he just admitted he can't program
20:06:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: +7 dB from replay gain now
20:06:13 <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
20:06:17 <ehird> so it wont' be written
20:06:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when I play it back it got lots and lots of noise
20:07:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: most albums these days get -10 dB from replay gain
20:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, how was my attempt at your nick btw?
20:07:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I don't really have a preferred pronunciation for it.
20:07:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: see "loudness war" at wikipedia if you're interested
20:07:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ugh. Well I change my headset volume as needed :p
20:07:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess I'll have to fetch my headphones and check.
20:08:06 <AnMaster> anyway can't record more now without disturbing ppl
20:08:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also if you want I could do your nick in Swedish instead (but not right now)
20:09:01 <AnMaster> deeeviant (stressing the second syllable)
20:09:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'll reiterate: "err, don't do that." :-P
20:09:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not? got anything against Swedish?
20:09:21 <Deewiant> hmm, swedish pronunciation in my mind would stress the last syllable
20:09:57 <AnMaster> you could get a horribly strong "eeee" in some dialects
20:10:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, you're not the only one who says it like that. It's not the "finnishy" way of doing it, but as far as I'm concerned there isn't a specific correct way anyway.
20:10:27 <AnMaster> Stockholmsa for example I think
20:11:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, Well in Swedish it would have been like s, and no "buzzing z" (no idea about the correcting English word there, would be "tonande z" in Swedish)
20:11:17 <AnMaster> except we don't have that sound
20:14:22 <fizzie> The most Finnishy way has a rather peculiar 'z', it's that "ts" sound. Maybe Deewiant can describe it better.
20:14:56 <fizzie> My wife uses something close to how you'd probably say "fis" when talking with her relatives.
20:15:03 <fizzie> (My own relatives just use the real name.)
20:15:05 <ais523> fizzie: German prononuces z like that too
20:15:46 <Deewiant> it's z in IPA for what it's worth
20:16:33 <fizzie> IPA 'z' is "zoo", "rose"; so maybe not.
20:16:34 <Deewiant> no, it's not, it's t͡s or something
20:17:09 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_affricate
20:17:12 <Asztal> wikipedia said simply ts
20:18:29 <fizzie> Aw, the ts-ligature thing looks funnier than just "ts with an arc above".
20:22:07 <Deewiant> hmm, nobody's pronounced Asztal yet
20:23:39 <Asztal> the 'a' is the Hungarian a, which is like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Open_back_rounded_vowel.ogg
20:23:59 <Asztal> the stress is on the first syllable, and sz is pronounce like english s :)
20:24:40 <Asztal> as for the L, I think it's probably more like the Finnish one
20:24:54 <fizzie> "English s" really depends on whatever is around it; is it the IPA 's', like in "see" or "city" or "pass"?
20:25:42 <Asztal> I should have known better than to use English as a reference...
20:26:04 <Asztal> 'it sounds kind of like "ough"'
20:26:48 <Deewiant> hmm, that ɒ is one weird (but cool) sound
20:28:03 <Deewiant> found in hungarian, persian, afrikaans and some random languages + the only correct way of pronouncing english
20:31:01 <fizzie> For some reason the term "received pronunciation" always makes me think it wants to say "English pronunciation as received from God", or something. Where does the name come from, anyway?
20:32:01 <ais523> political correctness, I think
20:32:52 <Deewiant> fizzie: The word received conveys its original meaning of accepted or approved – as in "received wisdom".[3]
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21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | In Python.... x = not x returns the opposite boolean value.... so infinity would have to have some sort of boolean value..
21:14:44 <oerjan> oh Dobela is an acronym, i thought it would be some polish word... is it that too?
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23:19:35 <oklopol> (oerjan: i think it's your turn...)
23:19:48 <oerjan> but i don't get what md is
23:21:01 <ais523> mendelevium is a chemical, isnt' it?
23:21:02 <oklopol> the next one in turn tries to find a category the thing said is an element of
23:21:12 <oklopol> and finds the "next element" in that category
23:21:17 <oklopol> or just another element if there's no order
23:21:38 <oerjan> i was confused. i thought you were saying md _was_ a game
23:27:55 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah, that was quite an obvious one
23:28:13 <ais523> also, everyone knows that oko comes after o
23:28:28 <oerjan> ais523: only in one category
23:28:38 <ais523> oko is a language too...
23:29:04 <oklopol> oko is an abbreviation for a finnish bank
23:29:42 <oerjan> well, ook would be even more disturbing
23:30:02 <oklopol> phd would've been a bit hard to continue
23:30:20 <oerjan> but then so is oilskin coat
23:30:48 <oerjan> i couldn't think of any other 2-letter doctorates without cheating
23:31:44 <oerjan> hm i should have said mc instead of mac. then we could have had car, cdr, ...
23:35:13 <oerjan> just ask O'Sullivan over there
23:42:23 <oerjan> hm is there a game named "Lost"? probably.
23:42:37 <ehird> based on the lost franchise
23:42:40 <ehird> saw it in a store a while ago
23:42:46 <ehird> nearly killed myself >:(
23:43:12 <oerjan> the question is, does it have a way to win? :D
23:43:44 <ehird> oerjan: its a board game i think
23:43:48 <oerjan> that does seem sort of against the spirit
23:43:51 <ehird> but you want a game called The Game
23:43:54 <ehird> not a game called Lost
23:44:07 <oerjan> there was a video game as the first google hit
23:44:29 <oerjan> no, no, i was thinking: Lost, the game
23:44:38 <oerjan> where the comma is strictly optional
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23:52:11 <oklopol> 01:27:21 ais523: oilskin coat
23:52:20 <oklopol> everything is much clearer now.
23:53:14 <oerjan> it all makes sense if you trust the little green man
23:54:40 <oklopol> hmm, could you also say "green little man"?
23:55:25 <oklopol> somehow, that doesn't sound bad even though adjectives usually wanna be the last attributes
23:55:47 <oerjan> er they are both adjectives
23:56:06 <oklopol> actually probably because "X-ey little man" is quite common
23:56:30 <oerjan> don't tell him he's X-ey. he could get angry.
23:56:36 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, but, for instance the canonical example, "red big balloon" is definitely wrong
23:58:18 <oklopol> sometimes adjectives just need to be in a certain order, determined by Magic
23:59:24 <oklopol> you know, the magic science is indisguishable from until psygnisfive tells us why that happens