00:00:03 <psygnisfive> actually there are certain well defined orderings for adjectives that seem to hold across languages. :)
00:00:20 <oklopol> indeed, it's "iso punainen pallo" in finnish too
00:00:21 <oerjan> that seems unlikely. after all psygnisfive is not green. afaik.
00:00:48 <oklopol> you can probably deduce punainen:fi means red and iso:fi means big
00:01:28 <oerjan> i guess the romance distinction between adjectives that go before and after the noun follow the same pattern?
00:01:52 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what are the orderings?
00:02:35 <psygnisfive> actually, romance adjectives that precede the noun are very rare, are restricted to certain classes of adjectives, and the readings you get from putting them before the noun are not the same as the ones from after the noun
00:03:02 <oerjan> i thought big and little were pretty rare too
00:03:02 <psygnisfive> e.g. in italian, "un uomini grande" (or whatever the exact words are), means "a large man"
00:03:19 <psygnisfive> but "un grande uomini" means "a great man/man of great character"
00:03:31 <psygnisfive> as for the ordering, i cant give them to you off the top of my head
00:03:32 <oklopol> oerjan: it's the color that does it, not the size
00:06:39 <oerjan> hm possibly little placed after other adjectives has a slightly different meaning too
00:08:50 <oklopol> i sense sort of a diminutive connotation
00:09:16 <psygnisfive> yes. the standard, non-interesting ordering is mostly the same across languages
00:09:38 <psygnisfive> for instance if you have two large books, one red and one blue
00:12:04 <oklopol> is that a sad face with a funny nose or a funny nose with a sad smile?
00:12:35 <oerjan> psygnisfive has a very strange beard
00:12:42 <oerjan> or some serious drooling
00:13:35 <oerjan> never typoe in a canoe
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00:15:05 <oerjan> avoid silly metaphors like the plague
00:15:28 <oerjan> and don't exaggerate even if your life depends on it
00:16:56 <oklopol> also avoid silly syntactic ambiguities like the plague
00:19:38 <oerjan> especially if you don't have a barn fell
00:20:06 <lament> the horse that raced past the barn fell fell?
00:22:32 <oerjan> i think people who claim fell can only be a verb have something to hide
00:34:55 <lament> my opinion of them just fell
00:35:56 <lament> psygnisfive: stop insulting my mother
00:36:05 <oklopol> ^choo fellfellfellfellfell
00:36:05 <fungot> fellfellfellfellfell ellfellfellfellfell llfellfellfellfell lfellfellfellfell fellfellfellfell ellfellfellfell llfellfellfell lfellfellfell fellfellfell ellfellfell llfellfell lfellfell fellfell ellfell llfe ...
00:36:43 <fungot> oklopolklopollopolopolpololl
00:37:14 <lament> what determines whether there're spaces or not?
00:37:35 <fungot> chatanooga hatanooga atanooga tanooga anooga nooga ooga oga ga a
00:41:24 <oklopol> oerjan: it's really annoying when you play with the bots for so many screenfulls.....
00:41:54 <fungot> choo choooohoo choooooo chooooo choooo choooochoooohoooooooooooooo
00:42:16 * oerjan swats oklopot with a kettle
00:42:46 <fungot> ``s`kk `s`kk s`kk `kk kk k
00:43:06 <fungot> `````s`kk ````s`kk ```s`kk ``s`kk `s`kk s`kk `kk kk k
00:43:41 <fungot> unlambdanlambdalambdaambdambdabdadaa
00:43:52 <oklopol> is unlambdanlambdalambdaambdambdabdadaa tc?
00:44:29 <psygnisfive> its turingcompleteuringcompleteringcompleteingcompletengcompletegcompleteompletempletepleteleteetetee
00:45:06 <fungot> turing complete uring complete ring complete ing complete ng complete g complete complete complete omplete mplete plete lete ete te e
00:45:21 <oerjan> also ^cho on a well-formed unlambda expression (longer than a single letter) cannot work i think
00:45:42 <oerjan> but maybe if you start with something that has more `
00:45:50 <oklopol> oerjan: but what if the expression itself isn't well-wormed?
00:46:13 <oklopol> you weren't talking about worms
00:46:43 <oerjan> i suggest fe worm a committee to investigate
00:48:16 <oklopol> you can probably like, compile unlambda progs to unlaambdanlamb..., but somehow making it ignore the nlambdalambdaambda... part
00:50:30 <oklopol> so say you have something like ```sii``sii
00:50:52 <oklopol> could you somehow en-cho that so that it just runs that actual program
00:51:04 <fungot> ```sii``sii``sii``sii`sii``siisii``siiii``siii``sii``sii`siisiiiii
00:52:16 <oerjan> well apart from those interpreters that ignore extra parts of the file (or treat it as program input)
00:52:44 <oerjan> (which is easy since unlambda is LR(0))
00:55:27 <oerjan> oh and have anyone found actual real words produced by ^cho
00:56:05 <oerjan> because you don't need to look at next character to know how things parse so far
00:56:13 <lament> but it's not much of a word
00:56:31 <lament> pazazz actually has nearly 100K google hits
00:56:49 <lament> it's a clothing company
00:58:47 <oklopol> i was thinking posess, which was almost possess
00:58:55 <oklopol> so that was both pointless and a failure
01:03:09 <lament> there's quite a few three-letter words which work
01:03:45 <lament> unfortunately, i'm afraid bazazz and pazazz are the only ones in my dictionary otherwise
01:03:48 <lament> (that are full matches)
01:04:01 <oerjan> hmph this one has only pazazz
01:04:13 <oklopol> well check 1234234344 too, just to be sure
01:04:29 <oerjan> i checked '\(.\)\(.\)\1\2\2$'
01:04:37 <fungot> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:04:54 <oerjan> that includes everything relevant + some noise
01:05:13 <lament> oerjan: i checked those things for length of chain of 1 to 5
01:05:45 <oklopol> that's a bit harder to search
01:06:24 <oklopol> well not really harder, but if you're using regexps for this, it's prolly impossible
01:07:09 <oerjan> words such that every tail is also a word?
01:07:21 <oklopol> put that way, it's quite simple
01:07:44 <oklopol> because that's equal to words such that the tail is also such a word
01:08:40 <oklopol> so just one lookup per word, and a flag for each
01:12:53 <fungot> wrestable restable estable stable table able ble le e
01:13:31 <lament> it's some abbreviation
01:14:11 <lament> i can try without cutoff
01:15:18 <fungot> suprising uprising prising rising ising sing ing ng g
01:16:49 <lament> considering i got this from a "spell checker word list"...
01:17:43 <lament> it certainly doesn't seem real...
01:18:18 <oerjan> dictionary.com claims it doesn't exist
01:19:04 <oerjan> as does merriam-webster
01:19:12 <lament> is it what they make isinglass from? :)
01:19:13 <Asztal> dictionary.com says ising is a word (but shows the entry for vocalize, oddly)
01:19:33 <lament> Ising is a last name...
01:19:42 <oklopol> i can do a search on the some 150 dictionaries lingobot has, tomorrow
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01:19:47 <lament> wikipedia alone has 226 typos of suprising
01:19:53 <oklopol> suprising is a last name too
01:20:09 <lament> there's more than a million hits for suprising
01:20:13 <oklopol> that doesn't exactly make suprising a word
01:20:41 <oklopol> okay i'm officially too tired now.
01:20:54 <oerjan> well if we consider how many of those were using faulty linux dictionaries...
01:21:09 <oerjan> no wonder it is spreading
01:21:38 * oerjan should officially go to bed too
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04:19:05 <lament> ^cho Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
04:19:06 <fungot> Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...
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04:48:01 <Sgeo> ^cho Is this just an echo thing?
04:48:01 <fungot> Is this just an echo thing?s this just an echo thing? this just an echo thing?this just an echo thing?his just an echo thing?is just an echo thing?s just an echo thing? just an echo thing?just an echo thing? ...
04:48:19 <Sgeo> ^cho Not quite
04:48:19 <fungot> Not quiteot quitet quite quitequiteuiteitetee
04:48:35 <Sgeo> ^cho ababababa
04:48:35 <fungot> ababababababababaababababababaababababaababaa
04:49:12 <fungot> This is lame.his is lame.is is lame.s is lame. is lame.is lame.s lame. lame.lame.ame.me.e..
04:53:03 <ab5tract> ^cho fungot is a crazy woromboist
04:53:03 <fungot> fungot is a crazy woromboistungot is a crazy woromboistngot is a crazy woromboistgot is a crazy woromboistot is a crazy woromboistt is a crazy woromboist is a crazy woromboistis a crazy woromboists a crazy w ...
04:53:32 <ab5tract> fungot doesnt respond to saying its own name :(
04:53:33 <fungot> ab5tract: that's a ver absic interface to mod_lisp...
04:54:17 <fungot> Üņìçôđé ŗūĺzņìçôđé ŗūĺzņìçôđé ŗūĺzìçôđé ŗūĺzìçôđé ŗūĺzçôđé ŗūĺzçôđé ŗūĺzôđé ŗūĺzôđé ŗūĺzđé ŗūĺzđé ŗūĺzé ŗūĺzé ŗūĺ ...
04:55:36 <fungot> ab5tract: by ted fnord: fnord fnord tiksi fnord fnord
05:44:14 <ab5tract> fungot: not as impressive as you seem?
05:44:15 <fungot> ab5tract: that's only a warning.
05:44:22 <fungot> ab5tract: luxy i cant wait to see fahrenheit 911 when it comes to names
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06:14:56 <asiekierka> <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
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12:14:14 <ehird> asiekierka: <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
12:14:16 <ehird> [12:13] asiekierka: *AHEM*
12:14:18 <ehird> [12:13] asiekierka: that was NOT funny
12:14:20 <ehird> that's ok, it wasn't a joke.
12:28:14 <fizzie> Heh, the people from the local computer science students' club/association/thing sent this postcard from the annual Saint Petersburg train-trip: http://flickr.com/photos/oiva/2920226756/
12:30:11 <fizzie> And it managed to get all the way back here to the computer science building; the full address would be "Konemiehentie 2, 02150 Espoo". Admittedly the crossword puzzle is _very_ simple (if you speak Finnish, that is), but it's still rather neat that they did deliver it at all.
12:30:37 <ehird> Hm. Where is my ircnomic bot?
12:30:41 <ehird> That is the question
12:31:28 <fizzie> I wouldn't be too surprised if it had included the postal number (the local post office is probably pretty used to receiving cards like that) but that one only has "Finland", which I guess means some sort of central post office person has had to puzzle out the correct address.
12:33:38 <fizzie> oklopol: "hammas", I think.
12:33:49 <fizzie> (Teeth, for non-Finnish people.)
12:33:53 <oklopol> 14:30:58 @Nailor: http://flickr.com/photos/oiva/2920226756/
12:34:20 <fizzie> That, and the earlier "ikkuna" (window) were the hardest ones.
12:34:26 <fizzie> Heh, it goes around and around.
12:34:27 <oklopol> well not the university's, the... what's the smaller thing :-)
12:34:45 <oklopol> did that originate from you?
12:34:58 <oklopol> oh, hammas, i was thinking huuli[s]
12:35:25 <fizzie> No; but I got the link from the person whose flicker account it is, so my copy was just a second-generation one.
12:35:36 <fizzie> Not that there seems to be much degradation in the URL.
12:36:02 <ehird> i'm not sure what i'm meant to get about that card
12:36:05 <fizzie> Or is it a first-generation copy when it's directly from the original? Not sure.
12:36:19 <ehird> nomicbot seems to be dead
12:36:22 <oklopol> ehird: the address is given as a crossword puzzle
12:36:37 <ehird> oklopol: haha, that is great
12:37:01 <ehird> next up: NP-complet address calculation
12:37:13 <fizzie> The post office person hadn't actually filled the address in the crossword, though, just there on the empty address lines.
12:38:05 <fizzie> And the "kiinnostaa"/"ei kiinnosta" checkboxes ("interesting"/"not interesting") also went unmarked. I guess they have some sort of policy not to write in people's postcards. :p
12:38:47 <ehird> np complete addresses would own
12:39:08 <oklopol> yes, except they would just return the card
12:39:30 <oklopol> "anyone knows them algos here?" "nah" "oki ima send this back"
12:39:36 <ehird> well, uh, if i sent out a postcard addressed with a crossword i'd expect it to be returned
12:40:03 <oklopol> well, i can pretty much just read that without thinking, apart from the last clue
12:40:23 <oklopol> which wasn't really needed
12:40:43 <fizzie> Yes, as far as crossword puzzles go that was a really simple one.
12:40:51 <ehird> It'd help if I knew finnish, of course.
12:41:12 <ehird> but yeah, if i sent out anything remotely like that it'dd just be returned
12:41:14 <oklopol> all crossword puzzles with a "solution row" are trivial
12:41:22 <fizzie> It's just "cat" (the word 'miau' is the finnish version of 'meow'), "apple", "nose", "snail", "man", "window", "no", "tooth".
12:41:31 <oklopol> well, the puzzle part is trivial
12:42:05 <oklopol> the picture decrypting may not be
12:49:53 <oklopol> perhaps i should do some work on noprob today
12:50:04 <oklopol> i think i've finally wrapped my head around the probabilities
12:51:42 <oklopol> the implementation will, though, list the entire truth table all the time, because probabilities become a bit tricky otherwise, and i have no idea how to do problotures yet, because i'm not sure how to list the *whole* truth table *lazily*
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13:33:04 <AnMaster> "True if the given string or variable's value is lexicographically less (or greater, or equal) than the string on the right."
13:33:16 <AnMaster> would that imply case sensitive or case insensitive
13:37:52 <AnMaster> hrrm a test shows it is case sensitive
13:38:14 * AnMaster looks for an insensitive string compare in cmake...
13:40:32 <fizzie> You can always string(TOLOWER in out) them both. Not very pretty.
13:46:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, breaks since string may not be set
13:46:45 <AnMaster> I'm trying to compare the build type
13:47:00 <AnMaster> but other than that I already coded the something like that
13:47:15 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to handle " STRING no output variable specified"
13:47:36 <AnMaster> since string only takes a string, not a variable
13:48:24 <AnMaster> hm quoting it too seems to work
13:50:36 <oklopol> i've never understood why people keep making the same simple mistakes
13:50:57 <oklopol> the reason is probably they don't give a shit
13:51:04 <oklopol> but it's still confuzzling
13:51:15 <AnMaster> well I try to, it is just due to bad habit
13:52:03 <oklopol> bad habit is fine methinks.
13:52:14 <oklopol> but not the best way to put it
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14:33:30 <M0ny> hi AnMaster and ais523
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15:07:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hate how, no matter what concept of programming you follow, there's always a nasty corner :P.
15:08:07 <oerjan> clearly we need a concept of soft, fuzzy programming
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15:19:57 <ais523> asiekierka: joining, and then saying you hate ehird before he's even said anything?
15:20:11 <oklopol> ais523: response to what he said in the log
15:20:19 <asiekierka> <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
15:20:27 <ais523> ah, I remember that now
15:20:39 <ais523> but different people have different ideas of which esoprograms are interesting
15:20:40 <asiekierka> Also, i know how to use the tunes.org logs, if you didn't know
15:20:57 <ais523> normally when I respond to logs I give some clue that that's what I'm doing
15:21:34 <oklopol> don't take too much offense, ehird doesn't really watch what he says, and he to hate things
15:22:11 <thutubot> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...too much output!
15:22:41 <oklopol> how do you program unlambda? do you compile lc->ski->ul?`
15:22:51 <ais523> that's the usual method
15:22:59 <ais523> also, I interpret ul as referring to Underload, normally
15:23:04 <oklopol> what i'm asking is do you do that
15:23:10 <oklopol> err yes, i meant underload
15:23:22 <ais523> oh, Underload programming is pretty different
15:23:35 <ais523> normally I program directly in the Underload, I have quite an idea of how it works by now
15:23:51 <oklopol> because i can't do it, it's pretty cool
15:24:03 <ais523> although I have an optimising ski compiler that can compile ``sii into :^, :^ is probably intuitively easier to understand
15:24:12 <oerjan> underload might be close to Joy than unlambda, maybe?
15:24:16 <ais523> and there are tricks that work in Underload but not LC
15:24:42 <ais523> for instance, my divide-by-10 code works by using the stack
15:24:53 <ais523> and each stack element pops the 9 below it
15:25:03 <ais523> and then executes the one below
15:25:24 <ais523> I can't even think of a way to express that sort of thing in a non-concatenative lang, except by bundling a concatenative interpreter
15:25:59 <oklopol> i don't get how that works
15:26:11 <asiekierka> Anyway, I may write some other esolangs
15:26:29 <asiekierka> Actually, DOBELA itself could be called DOBELA_mini
15:26:33 <oklopol> asiekierka: when he comes online, he will definitely give you another reason to hate him, it's his thing
15:26:39 <oerjan> asiekierka: you didn't notice my question whether DOBELA means anything in polish?
15:26:56 <ais523> +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
15:26:58 <thutubot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output!
15:26:59 <asiekierka> It stands for DOt-Based Esoteric LAnguage, read the wiki entry
15:27:25 <oerjan> but it could still have a meaningful acronym
15:27:42 <oklopol> i wonder if you could make something like a boolean circuit out of that
15:28:11 <oerjan> it's an african name, if google speaks truely
15:28:22 <ais523> asiekierka: of DOBELA, presumably
15:28:41 <ais523> does DOBELA have any way to remove # signs once they've been created?
15:28:48 <ais523> if it doesn't, control flow might be quite hard
15:28:58 <oklopol> ais523: computation can only be done using | afaik
15:29:13 <asiekierka> Also, you can stop the generator thing
15:29:45 <ais523> asiekierka: it's much easier to program with locals than globals, if you've only got globals like the generator then proving TCness is much harder, whether it's TC or not
15:30:12 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^
15:30:29 <oklopol> ais523: locals and globals in what sense?
15:30:34 <asiekierka> ais523: Uh, yes, i could make it that if a generator is hit north, it changes it's state (on/off) and when hit south, it's type (zeros/ones)
15:30:37 <ais523> oklopol: things local to part of a program
15:30:39 <thutubot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 8 ...too much output!
15:30:47 <ais523> the problem is that controlling generators is a global thing
15:30:48 <asiekierka> But setting the global one overrides everything
15:31:00 <oerjan> asiekierka: i noticed some holes in the spec, say what happens with multi-dot collisions
15:31:18 <oerjan> 3 or more dots colliding
15:31:19 <oklopol> ais523: oh i didn't notice anything global
15:31:58 <asiekierka> but i'll set the generators to be local too, just in case
15:32:22 <oerjan> and also for collisions in other directions than horizontal
15:32:39 <asiekierka> In vertical, pretty much the same happens
15:32:40 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^:*( )S~:^):^
15:33:08 <asiekierka> And multi-dot collisions? Pretty much it's a very rare exception
15:33:11 <thutubot> 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ...too much output!
15:33:20 <asiekierka> But it's possible that one dot collides with a dot that collides with another dot
15:33:21 <ais523> ugh, it wasn't meant to do that
15:33:26 <oklopol> asiekierka: the problem is, if you control local things with global switches, it's hard to get sensible computation, as you cannot really be modular when all parts of your program are changing the same global state for their own purposes
15:33:44 <asiekierka> you can control local things with both now
15:33:50 <asiekierka> But global overrides local IF YOU USE IT
15:34:05 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^
15:34:20 <ais523> spotted the bug, I was doing x squared rather than x times 2
15:34:21 <asiekierka> Wall/dot collisions are weird, but that was the main point of dobela
15:34:32 <oklopol> asiekierka: how do you do a local change?
15:34:44 <thutubot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much memory used!
15:34:58 <oklopol> also i don't see what difference it makes whether dots are 1 or 0 really
15:35:04 <asiekierka> as in, dot collides with a dot that collides with a dot
15:35:11 <oklopol> i think. i can't really tell how hard that is :P
15:35:16 <ais523> oklopol: not really, multiplication's easy in Underload, it's easier than addition anyway
15:35:19 <asiekierka> Then we scan the board from north-west to south-east, left-right, up-down
15:35:30 <ais523> not as easy as exponentiation though
15:35:35 <oklopol> ais523: each me a bit, will ya?
15:35:36 <asiekierka> First the topleftmost dot's collision is done
15:35:57 <ais523> oklopol: 5 would be (::::****)
15:36:15 <asiekierka> oklopol: 0 and 1 difference is mainly output, and rotation direction
15:36:17 <ais523> (x)~^S is just code to output a number in unary
15:36:26 <asiekierka> As generators output every other cycle
15:36:38 <ais523> basically, in the number scheme I normally use, 0 is !()
15:36:43 <asiekierka> You could use some tricks to output every 4th cycle north, and every 4th south
15:36:49 <ais523> :* is 2, ::** is 3, :::*** is 4, and so on
15:37:05 <ais523> basically, 0 makes no copies of its argument
15:37:10 <oklopol> let me try to make addition
15:37:11 <ais523> by popping it and replacing it with a null string
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15:38:24 <oklopol> say you have numbers a and b, (x)(a)^(b)^ will do ((x*a)*b), except that's multiplication
15:38:57 <ais523> oklopol: yes, concatenation is exponeniation
15:38:59 <oklopol> asiekierka: i guessed that
15:39:09 <oklopol> ais523: but but, i don't see why :o
15:39:31 <oklopol> if you've concatenated things
15:39:34 <ais523> which concatenation does depends on where the parens ar
15:40:34 <ais523> asiekierka: try refreshing, if it still doesn't work there's a problem
15:40:51 <ais523> oklopol: well, 2 means "make 2 copies", and 3 means "make 3 copies"
15:40:56 <oklopol> ais523: so (::::****:::***) would be 64?
15:41:04 <ais523> so if you do 2 then 3, you make 2 copies of the top of the stack, then 3 copies of the top of that
15:41:13 <ais523> and no, (::::***:::***) is 5*4 is 20
15:41:23 <oklopol> so concatenation is multiplication
15:41:25 <ais523> whereas (::::***):::*** is 5^4 which is 625
15:41:50 <ais523> +ul (::::****:::***)(x)~^S
15:41:56 <ais523> +ul (::::****):::***(x)~^S
15:41:57 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
15:42:01 <oklopol> does this actually make * multiplication and ^ exponentiation?
15:42:14 <ais523> why do you think I chose those symbols?
15:42:21 <oklopol> ais523: that's incredibly awesome
15:42:50 * ais523 notes that there's a bug in thutubot's ...too much output! message
15:43:00 <ais523> in that sometimes it ends up clipped off because there's too much output
15:43:27 <ais523> anyway, to increment a number you put : at the start and * at the end
15:43:45 <oklopol> addition is done like that too?
15:43:47 <ais523> and to add two numbers, you increment the first a number of times equal to the second
15:44:26 <ais523> well, say you have 3 beneath 5 on the stack
15:44:34 <ais523> and you do ((:)~*(*)*)~^^
15:44:43 <ais523> you're pushing the code for increment on the stack
15:44:47 <ais523> then swapping it below the 5
15:44:55 <ais523> evalling the 5 with ^ makes 5 copies of increment
15:45:06 <ais523> then evalling the 5 copies of increment with ^ adds 5 to the number below
15:45:13 <ais523> so you end up with 8 on the stack
15:46:35 <ais523> that's the most common way to loop a fixed number of times in Underload, too
15:46:50 <oklopol> anything you could give me as homework? i wanna try to do something simple
15:47:07 <asiekierka> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/DOBELA - Some fixes
15:47:26 <ais523> try to write an infinite loop which outputs something each time round the loop, that's nice and simple
15:47:27 <asiekierka> (wow, i actually did 10 revisions? Nope, 9, but one was a double-version fix since it changed a little too much)
15:48:04 <ais523> hmm... probably the Ackermann function is simple to write in Underload too, I've never tried though
15:48:36 <asiekierka> I wonder if you can calculate PI in underload... hmm...
15:49:03 <oklopol> ais523: sounds simple, /me tries
15:50:10 <oklopol> ah, i think i see the way to do recursion
15:50:29 <ais523> I generally do recursion by giving the function to itself as its first argument
15:50:30 <oklopol> just like you'd do it in python without globals, just give the lambda itself as param
15:50:45 <oklopol> that's exactly what i was going to say, and said
15:51:22 <asiekierka> I wonder if DOBELA is low-level, high-level or middle-level
15:51:43 <ais523> oklopol: x isn't a real command
15:51:47 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
15:52:16 <ais523> oklopol: that looks right, yes
15:52:26 <ais523> maybe I should say "look, no lambdas!"
15:52:36 <ais523> but Underload is only a functional lang sometimes
15:52:48 <ais523> programming in it normally ends up functionallish in practice, though
15:52:53 <oklopol> well i wasn't really thinking functionally there
15:52:54 <oerjan> asiekierka: the only usable infinite memory is the FIFO, right? so it might need to be programmed like a tag system
15:53:13 <ais523> that's an imperative Underload program, if you just take (...:^):^ as meaning "infinite while loop"
15:53:29 <ais523> oerjan: ah, tag system would work even better than Minsky machine
15:53:33 <ais523> I approve of that idea
15:53:45 <ais523> probably either regular tag or cyclic tag would work
15:53:48 <ais523> not sure which would be easier
15:54:44 <asiekierka> Hmm, so, do you think DOBELA is TC now
15:55:05 <asiekierka> If hit south, makes everything moving west/east go down,
15:55:05 <asiekierka> if hit north, makes everything moving west/east go up.
15:55:19 <oerjan> asiekierka: it's at least pretty close
15:55:34 <ais523> I think that's enough, probably
15:55:44 <ais523> you could set up a cyclic tag input without problem, I think
15:55:53 <ais523> use a large vertical loop
15:56:03 <ais523> as in, a loop which is up and down next to each other
15:56:20 <ais523> at the bottom, you use # to route 0 and 1 in different directions, and make them hit the top or bottom of a | appropriately
15:56:27 <ais523> this doesn't affect the loop as it's vertical
15:56:42 <ais523> and you can easily use a generator to clone the original output, making a loop that way
15:56:48 <ais523> then you have a separate loop via the global FIFO
15:57:04 <ais523> that is the cyclic tag system's working string
15:57:31 <ais523> so yes, TC I think, the only possible reason that wouldn't work is due to it being impossible to set up the timing correctly, and I don't think that's the case
15:57:51 <asiekierka> which can be every 4th cycle if you don't care about the dot content
15:57:59 <oklopol> btw, a fun fact about noprob: even though you can write the program line by line, so that every line has one specific purpose, like setting a variable to 1%7 (my high precedence operator for division in notation), you can actually take all the triples in the program, and just scramble them anyway you like
15:58:05 <oklopol> except for the problotures
15:58:10 <asiekierka> every 4th cycle left, every 4th cycle starting from the 2nd one right
15:58:14 <oklopol> but you can scramble them internally too
15:59:17 <oklopol> this is a trivial consequence of the fact it's basically just 3-sat, of course, but it's still quite interesting how the execution will be sequential no matter what order you type things in
15:59:30 <asiekierka> So it's not TC maybe, but at least very, VERY close
15:59:53 <asiekierka> The board size is theoretically infinite
15:59:58 <oklopol> yeah, you should add a dash more computation
16:00:20 <oklopol> add a counter, and a command to increment it, that probably gives us about a percent more
16:00:44 <oerjan> asiekierka: the problem with the board size is i don't think you have any way to grow the board contents indefinitely in a way that you can use
16:01:43 <oerjan> you don't need that for making a tag system though
16:01:56 <asiekierka> and is a tag system enough for TC-ness?
16:02:20 <asiekierka> So can we assume it's 100% TC, 99% TC, or not TC at all
16:02:30 <ais523> tag systems are enough
16:02:53 <asiekierka> Which i'll fix by adding the 10th command
16:03:01 <asiekierka> how many commands can you have max for a turing tarpit?
16:03:10 <ais523> no more than necessary
16:03:25 <ais523> but in practice, tarpits seem to work out at about 8 or 9
16:04:24 <oklopol> 3-sat solving language, which i would very much like to be coding right now.
16:04:32 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't really think of DOBELA as a tarpit
16:04:39 <ais523> compare it to Black, for instance, which only has 1 command
16:05:05 <asiekierka> But it's based on AnMaster's idea. I created my wall/dot idea, he added some ideas, then went on to work on Proton
16:05:50 <oklopol> having AnMaster around doesn't automatically make things tarpits :P
16:05:59 <oklopol> quite the opposite, i'd wager
16:06:17 <asiekierka> without him, collisions would be vastly different
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16:10:52 <asiekierka> So, well, is my language at least a little interesting
16:11:32 <AnMaster> pseudo physics, since the model isn't accurate ;P
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16:12:15 <asiekierka> So, is my language at least a little interesting? - if you didn't hear
16:15:10 <Slereah_> I find it a weird thing to say
16:16:36 <oerjan> Slereah_: momentum, of course. duh.
16:17:01 <Slereah_> I was thinking rotating on itself
16:17:20 <oerjan> "and you call yourself a physicist"
16:17:37 <Slereah_> Well, when something hits a wall, it won't rotate 90
16:17:59 <oerjan> clearly this world has different symmetries :D
16:18:01 <Slereah_> Unless you do something other than horizontal/vertical
16:18:45 <oerjan> i'm thinking noether's theorem here
16:19:43 * oerjan makes a note: physics trolling, Slereah_. linguistics trolling, psygnisfive.
16:21:12 <asiekierka> it'll rotate 90s a wall, it won't rotate 90
16:21:32 <asiekierka> Check Cat (commented) to see how it works
16:22:06 <asiekierka> Also, who said this world has... PHYSICS!?
16:25:15 <Asztal> maybe walls are actually weird magnetic... things
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16:26:39 <asiekierka> We can just say dots are "living beings"
16:26:56 <asiekierka> that consist of a microprocessor, a lamp, and wheels
16:27:04 <oerjan> hm and dots are either electrons or positrons.
16:27:28 <oerjan> but those things that convert between matter and antimatter then are a bit scary
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16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:17:53] <oerjan> clearly this world has different symmetries :D
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:17:53] <Slereah_> Unless you do something other than horizontal/vertical
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:18:09] <Slereah_> It's not a symetry problem
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:18:14] <Slereah_> It's conservation of momentum
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:18:34] <Slereah_> Which is a sort of symetry, but well
16:28:30 * oerjan adds: just about any trolling, asiekierka.
16:29:04 <Asztal> or maybe they just have a lot of sidespin
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16:29:14 <ehird> *oerjan adds: just about any trolling, asiekierka.
16:29:16 * asiekierka notes: calling everyone a troller, oerjan.
16:29:34 <oerjan> asiekierka: no no, a victim for _my_ trolling. sheesh.
16:30:24 <asiekierka> But i'll try to cook up an eXplanation
16:30:44 <oerjan> Slereah_: didn't get that last one. you may wish to check tunes as a lot was said
16:30:44 <Slereah_> asiekierka : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Argh/1221655091974.jpg
16:31:11 <Slereah_> I'll check as soon as my FUCKING INTERNET WORKS >:V
16:31:26 <oerjan> asiekierka: also, yes =
16:32:00 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:32:04 <Slereah> [17:30:40] <Slereah_> Is that trolly enough? :o
16:32:05 <Slereah> [17:31:02] <Slereah_> I'll check as soon as my FUCKING INTERNET WORKS >:V
16:32:07 <Slereah> [17:31:29] * Disconnected*
16:32:20 <oerjan> asiekierka: just as long as it doesn't involve smurfs. FOR MERCY'S SAKE, NO SMURFS
16:32:53 <asiekierka> Basically, we can call this 2D world a "processing being".
16:32:53 <asiekierka> Dots are "data holders", they hold data and move it based on instructions. Walls are instructions for dots. An input outputter is connected to a wire transmitting data.
16:32:53 <asiekierka> Outputting things are also connected to a wire, they transmit data. Flippers change the data dots hold. Generators are weird, they materialize dots.
16:32:53 <asiekierka> The west/east control flower is an instruction holder. The FIFO controller is connected to a wire, and this manages the "RAM".
16:33:36 <fizzie> In the Wikipedia dump I got for fungot-teaching, there are 2385413 talk pages, containing a total of 4820550212 characters of Wiki-markup.
16:33:37 <fungot> fizzie: i think java's nice. not innovative, but nice idea
16:33:45 <asiekierka> There's a generic controller too, controlling the FIFO and generators. It's also connected to a wire
16:33:48 * oerjan notes that his reverse psychology failed.
16:34:07 <fizzie> fungot: Do you want me to reimplement you with Java, huh? Wouldn't that be pointless?
16:34:08 <fungot> fizzie: anyway using y is not something i have thought about a cons of two lists
16:34:50 <oerjan> asiekierka: wires are _so_ last century
16:35:13 <asiekierka> But this is the processor of a motherboard, the code
16:35:26 <asiekierka> And the controller is connected to... something
16:52:10 <asiekierka> I'm wondering whether to change something in DOBELA
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16:53:17 <asiekierka> Slereah, Slereah- and Slereah_: BATTLE TIME!
16:54:07 <oerjan> NOTE: when fighting your own clone, make sure it's not really yourself from the past. that could be messy.
16:54:37 <ais523> also, if it's yourself from the future, make sure not to lose
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16:55:38 <Slereah-> asiekierka can attest to that!
16:56:04 <oerjan> psygnisfive: sheesh, you too? WHY MUST EVERYONE MUSINDERSTAND ME!
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16:56:36 <oerjan> ais523: it has tripped up other esolangers before, such as David Morgan-Mar
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17:00:00 <oerjan> the worsester of them all!
17:00:10 -!- asiekiekka has changed nick to asiekierka.
17:00:29 <oerjan> and here i thought you were bruising up on your finnish
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17:31:01 <GregorR> oerjan: Don't you mean "The Worcestershire of them all!"
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17:42:01 <lament> That's what they all say
17:42:11 <Slereah-> Yeah, but when I think of Underload
17:42:14 <ais523_|direct> a originally comes from Lisp car, but the connection is so tortuous and unusual that it's unlikely to be obvious to people
17:43:06 <fizzie> Underload: puts the ass back into (:aSS):aSS.
17:43:12 * ais523_|direct thinks that maybe ehird shouldn't reboot servers arbitrarily without warning the other people using them...
17:43:37 <oerjan> oklopol: at least there is one...
17:44:28 <oerjan> GregorR: i think advertising Worcester sauce has got to be a challenge
17:45:24 <oklopol> ais523_|direct: your intuition about 100% probabilities was perhaps right
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17:45:59 <oklopol> i have no idea why that should set C to true with 100% probability
17:46:10 <oklopol> but it should, so that the operation would be symmetric
17:46:36 <oklopol> because A = .B ^ 1 will set A to 1%2
17:46:45 <oklopol> .A = .B ^ C should set C to 1
17:47:09 <oklopol> (.A and those are variables that are always true with 1%2 probability)
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17:49:45 <oklopol> A = .B ^ 1 will clearly do A = 1%2, because the truth table's true entries, with the constraint that C is true, are A=0,B=0,C=1; A=1,B=1,C=1, so A is equivalent to .B
17:49:57 <oklopol> which will just mean A = 1%2, after .B goes out of scope
17:50:25 <oklopol> but, i'm not actually sure that *is* a symmetric relation, well, actually i'm pretty sure it isn't.
17:51:56 <oklopol> so, basically, i'm not sure there's any way to "decrement" a variable, if we're representing number n as 1%2^n
17:52:12 <oklopol> just a way to add them together
17:52:46 <oklopol> it seems i still have some trouble seen how all this satting even works with probabilities
17:53:09 <oklopol> perhaps i should just try evaluating them, and see whether the whole operation even *makes sense*
17:53:17 <oklopol> because clearly my intuition fails me here
17:54:08 <oklopol> more generally, A = B ^ C, where B and C are known, multiplies together the probabilities of B and C, and makes A that; clear from both the semantics of probabilities, and the truth table
17:54:34 <oklopol> issue is this is not reversible, for some reason oerjan can probably tell me if i highlight him
17:54:59 <oklopol> do you get my point at all?
17:55:18 <oerjan> i don't understand the basics
17:55:37 <ais523_|direct> oklopol: the problem is that if something has less than 100% probability, there's nothing you can OR it with to make 100% except 1
17:55:50 <ais523_|direct> and if you do that it doesn't depend on the initial variable
17:56:10 <oklopol> ais523_|direct: yeah but you don't have to just evaluate boolean expressions
17:56:10 <ais523_|direct> detecting if something had exactly 50% probability would work I think, except that that really makes no obvious sense as an operation
17:56:33 * oerjan assumes ais523_|direct understands this better than him
17:56:39 <oklopol> SAT is about "making the expression true" by making anything anything that hasn't been initialized yet
17:57:12 <ais523_|direct> btw, ais523_|direct is the account you /query me on if you don't want ehird to be able to spy
17:58:31 <oklopol> so, intuitively, it seems that because A = B ^ C, where we don't know A, makes A the product of B and C, you'd think if you do A = B ^ C, where you don't know C, C would be made something that, when multiplied by B, becomes A
17:58:37 <oklopol> ais523_|direct: yes i'm aware of that
17:59:11 <asiekierka> oklopol, ais523_|direct, oerjan: What are you talking about? I was busy for a while
17:59:24 <oerjan> oklopol: i am somewhat dubious on this, doesn't this assume that B and C are independent?
17:59:30 <ais523_|direct> oklopol: that's what a reverse assignment is in INTERCAL
18:00:03 <oklopol> oerjan: all .X's are independent, and 0.5 initially
18:00:17 <oklopol> if i'm considering something a value, i'm also assuming it's independent of the things i'm doing calculations with
18:00:21 <oerjan> if there was another equation involving both of them, and some fourth variable...
18:00:49 <oerjan> that's not what i meant
18:00:52 <oklopol> oerjan: what's your point? i mean, in this case, there *isn't*
18:01:00 <oklopol> i'm sure you have a point, i just don't get it
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18:01:31 <oklopol> asiekierka: they don't exist yet
18:03:58 <oklopol> the problem is roughly that A = B ^ C, where C isn't set, doesn't find some value of C that when multiplied by B becomes A, because we're not actually doing multiplication, it's just the and happens to perform it for independent variables
18:04:05 <oklopol> there are other ways to satisfy that.
18:05:02 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:05:10 <oklopol> asiekierka: noprob is about 3-sat
18:05:18 <oklopol> but i'm talking about the wimpmode here
18:05:35 <asiekierka> Hm. If i knew what 3-sat is, i MAY have found it interesting
18:05:36 <oklopol> the wimpmode is about satisfying boolean expressions with probabilities
18:06:22 <oklopol> good point, we should continue the conversation there
18:08:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:08:50 <oklopol> asiekierka: just thinking out loud.
18:09:25 <oerjan> that was _not_ meant to be a channel name
18:09:32 <oklopol> oerjan: i know, it was a joke.
18:10:06 <oklopol> i remember your teachings.
18:10:43 <oklopol> oerjan: but, what was your point about the independence?
18:10:50 <GregorR> oerjan: Buy Worshr... Worchrshrshr ... buy the sauce you can't pronounce! (Clip of bottle slammed on a table)
18:11:12 <asiekierka> I wonder if 0 and ENTER count as 2 commands
18:11:58 <oerjan> oklopol: i thought you were assuming you could use ^ for multiplication even if they weren't. but i see you have thought about it.
18:12:25 <oklopol> well yeah i'm just considering the simple case where they are independent
18:12:31 <asiekierka> Oklopol: Can you give out Underload lessons for me, too?
18:12:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:13:05 <oklopol> asiekierka: it was ais523_|direct who showed *me* things about unlambda, not the other way
18:13:07 -!- ehird has joined.
18:13:32 <oerjan> underload is _not_ unlambda
18:13:44 -!- ais523_|direct has left (?).
18:13:55 <oklopol> WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES
18:14:02 <oklopol> WHAT A BUNCH OF STINKING IDIOTS
18:14:11 <oerjan> BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY THINK IN TWO-LETTER WORDS
18:14:24 <asiekierka> oklopol: I don't use unlambda, so well, duh
18:14:34 <ehird> BECAUSE THEY WEAR CAPES
18:14:36 <ehird> YOU RUINED MY RHYME
18:14:42 <ehird> ASIEKIERKA: PLEASE USE CAPS IN FUTURE
18:14:47 <oklopol> oerjan: when they are *not* independent, it's more complicated, of course, but getting something trivial like this to work might be helpful before that.
18:15:02 <oklopol> asiekierka: i meant underload.
18:15:17 <asiekierka> OKAY, EHIRD, BUT EVERY WORD AFTER THIS IN CAPS IS MADE BY A CRYBABY AND SUCKS
18:15:25 <oerjan> oklopol: the quantum collapsed in the right direction this time
18:15:42 <oerjan> asiekierka: YOU'RE MEAN
18:15:46 <ehird> asiekierka: rules only take effect if they're in the topic
18:15:56 <ehird> <asiekierka> And so
18:15:59 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hate how, no matter what concept of programming you follow, there's always a nasty corner :P | you can't use caps.
18:16:18 <oerjan> optbot, why hast thou forsaken us!
18:16:19 <ais523> ehird: you have to restart it manually
18:16:27 -!- optbot has joined.
18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with the most significant bit of the result being the AND of the most and least significant bits.
18:16:42 <ais523> neither optbot nor thutubot is in the startup scripts
18:16:42 <optbot> ais523: that's the idea
18:16:47 <ais523> oklopol: yes, and I said it, almost certainly
18:16:47 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with the most significant bit of the result being the AND of the most and least significant bits | type in caps or die | who changes the topic is a crybaby, except asiekierka.
18:16:53 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The definition for obscenity is fairly loose..
18:17:15 <oklopol> optbot is a baby, technically, as are most bots
18:17:15 <optbot> oklopol: DDoS Condition detected!
18:17:40 <asiekierka> optbot: you're a crybaby now, are you happy
18:17:40 <optbot> asiekierka: every argument to EVERYTHING is a thunk
18:18:07 <asiekierka> ais523: Could you please teach me underload? I know the commands, how to output text but not anything else
18:18:12 <oerjan> haskell haskell haskell
18:18:21 <ais523> there's a lot of demand for learning underload atm, it seems
18:18:26 <ais523> asiekierka: do you know how to do an infinite loop
18:18:31 <ais523> maybe I should get oklopol to teach you that
18:18:42 <ais523> do you know why that works?
18:18:51 <oerjan> ais523: but he'll just ask asiekierka to ask you, and then... oh no
18:19:04 <ais523> what about a finite loop?
18:19:11 <ais523> how would you print 64 copies of x, for instance?
18:19:26 <asiekierka> Hmm, i don't know lambda/underload calculations yet
18:19:41 <ais523> +ul ((x)S):*:*:*:*:*:*^
18:19:41 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:20:01 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):* ((x)S) ~^
18:20:06 <ais523> +ul (::::****):*((x)S)~^
18:20:15 <ais523> +ul (::::****):*((x)S)~^^
18:20:33 <ais523> and you aren't allowed whitespace in Underload, probably I should change that at some point though
18:20:45 <oklopol> oh, because just applying the number
18:20:55 <ais523> no, it just gives lots of copies of the code to print
18:21:03 <ais523> then you need a second ^ to actually run it
18:21:23 <ais523> oerjan: that isn't applying a number
18:21:36 <ais523> +ul ((Not even here?)S)(:*)^
18:21:43 <ais523> and as you can see nothing happened
18:21:43 <oklopol> ais523: he meant whitespace
18:21:46 <ais523> +ul ((Not even here?)S)(:*)^^
18:21:57 <ais523> oh, you're allowed whitespace if you don't try to run it
18:22:29 * ais523 wonders why there's a colon in that error message
18:22:57 <ais523> it means the : command was trying to run on an empty stack
18:23:30 <asiekierka> I must check what was the discarding command, again
18:23:47 <ais523> discards the top stack element
18:24:32 <ais523> relatively hard, but not too long
18:24:41 <ais523> the trick is to start with the nonexistent number !!()()
18:24:51 <ais523> and sorry, I spoiled slightly too quickly
18:24:56 <ais523> but I won't give away the rest
18:25:04 <ais523> +ul (:*(Looping... )S):^
18:25:10 <ais523> +ul (:*(Looping... )S^):^
18:25:14 <ais523> +ul (:(Looping... )S^):^
18:25:15 <thutubot> Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... ...too much output!
18:25:16 <oklopol> ais523: spoiling is actually one of your things when it comes to teaching
18:25:42 <asiekierka> You don't concatenate, because it overflows the stack, but it still works.
18:26:02 <ais523> asiekierka: what's the * for?
18:26:10 <ais523> it's not at all obvious what you're trying to concatenat
18:27:10 <asiekierka> It duplicates at the beginning to have what to duplicate from
18:28:16 <asiekierka> Now, tell me how do you use numbers in Underload, please.
18:29:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
18:29:34 <oerjan> +ul ()(:~(*)*:( )*S~^):^
18:29:35 <thutubot> :~(*)*:( )*S~^* :~(*)*:( )*S~^** :~(*)*:( )*S~^*** :~(*)*:( )*S~^**** :~(*)*:( )*S~^***** :~(*)*:( )*S~^****** :~(*)*:( )*S~^******* :~(*)*:( )*S~^******** ...too much output!
18:29:55 <ehird> that is some nice output
18:30:21 <oerjan> +ul ()(~(*)*:( )*S~:^):^
18:30:22 <thutubot> * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ...too much output!
18:30:31 <ais523> ugh, connection dropped
18:30:39 <asiekierka> Now, tell me how do you use numbers in Underload, please.
18:30:39 <ais523> do I have to check logs, or will someone tell me what it was?
18:30:43 <ais523> ah, a nice simple increment loop
18:30:45 <ais523> presumably that was oklopol?
18:30:48 <asiekierka> and oerjan did +ul ()(:~(*)*:( )*S~^):^
18:31:10 <asiekierka> i did know this, but couldn't recall it... quite
18:31:18 <ais523> basically, 0 means "make 0 copies of the TOS"
18:31:23 <ais523> 1 means "make 1 copy of the TOS"
18:31:26 <ais523> 2 means "make 2 copies of the TOS"
18:33:44 <oerjan> why not, it's definitely on topic
18:34:48 <oerjan> +ul (*)(~:*:( )*S~:^):^
18:34:49 <thutubot> ** **** ******** **************** ******************************** **************************************************************** ...too much output!
18:35:32 <ais523> oerjan: what were you trying to do?
18:35:46 <oerjan> powers of two, but missed the initial *
18:36:45 <oerjan> +ul (*)(~:( )*S:*~:^):^
18:36:46 <thutubot> * ** **** ******** **************** ******************************** **************************************************************** ...too much output!
18:39:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:39:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:40:35 <ais523> asiekierka: that'll need an output command somewhere
18:42:58 <oerjan> +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
18:42:59 <thutubot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output!
18:43:09 <ais523> oerjan: didn't you just copy that from the wiki?
18:43:50 <oerjan> sometimes copying gets the final newline even when it doesn't look that way
18:46:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
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18:53:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:58:02 <ais523> oerjan: implementing an increment?
18:59:50 -!- olsner has joined.
19:02:55 <ais523> +ul (:*)(~(:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S~:^):^
19:02:56 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
19:03:03 <ais523> +ul (:*)(~(:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S(/)S~:^):^
19:03:03 <thutubot> xxx/xxxx/xxxxx/xxxxxx/xxxxxxx/xxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
19:03:39 <ais523> the problem with what you were doing is that the copy of the function ended up on top of your counter
19:03:46 <ais523> so I added a couple of ~
19:03:56 <ais523> to put the copy of the function below the counter during the body of the loop
19:04:01 <ais523> and back on top again to reloop at the end
19:04:05 <ais523> so missed it by 2 chars
19:04:23 <asiekierka> So i'm beginning grasping underload, it seems
19:05:17 <ais523> ok, I'll shut up for a bit
19:07:43 <asiekierka> Ok, that's adding 3 with 2, but it's 3+1 then
19:08:25 <ais523> asiekierka: ::: is not a number
19:08:39 <ais523> you've split the ::: from the ***?
19:09:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:09:41 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)()~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!)~^(x)~^^
19:10:06 <oklopol> and no help or i shall swat
19:10:25 <oklopol> (i haven't been figuring it out this long, was watching friends)
19:10:42 <oerjan> do your friends approve of your watching?
19:13:10 <asiekierka> +ul (::**)(:::)~*(***)*(this stops the editing part)!(:)~*(*)*(x)~^S
19:13:53 <asiekierka> Does anyone need help with grasping it?
19:13:59 <ais523> I think I know how it works
19:14:01 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)()~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!)~***(x)~^^
19:14:31 <asiekierka> +ul (::**)(:::)~*(***)*(:)~*(*)*(x)~^S
19:14:32 <ais523> asiekierka: yes, that's used for comments
19:14:41 <ehird> asiekierka: ais523 invented underload
19:14:45 <ais523> also it's common to use commented-out newlines
19:15:26 <asiekierka> Now i see why you know every thing about it
19:16:03 <asiekierka> I only hate one thing about Underload: It isn't sufficent to make an IRCbot!
19:16:38 <oklopol> okay i officially suck at this. i actually had a large semantical error in that prog.
19:16:48 <oklopol> but, i have it now, except not yet on code
19:17:02 <asiekierka> You should make underload, but with input
19:17:17 <asiekierka> But you don't have ways to process in... too much complication!
19:17:27 <asiekierka> But you don't have ways to process inp ...too much complication!
19:18:29 <asiekierka> ::::::****** ::** :* ::::**** ::** !() ::::::::******** ::** ::::**** :*
19:18:45 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*(xS)~^^
19:19:20 <asiekierka> Error: Unrecognized Command in the debugger
19:19:41 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*((x)S)~^^
19:20:07 <asiekierka> since it basically does nothing in something
19:20:12 <ais523> btw, I also wrote both the debugger, and Thutubot
19:20:42 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*S
19:21:01 <asiekierka> ais523, i'm making a new religion, just for you
19:21:07 <ais523> oklopol: in other words, 5, just like your input was
19:21:19 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*S
19:21:29 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*(x)~^S
19:22:11 * oerjan swats asiekierka back to the ground ----###
19:22:28 <asiekierka> +ul (not like it'd execute, but hey)S----###
19:22:28 <thutubot> not like it'd execute, but hey
19:22:57 <oklopol> asiekierka: considering how much i've played with esolangs, it would've been quite weird if you had beaten me imo
19:23:00 <ais523> oklopol: is that 5-1 you just did?
19:23:16 <oerjan> +ul (<CTCP>ACTION tests something<CTCP>)S
19:23:23 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^(x)~^S
19:23:54 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:23:56 <ais523> asiekierka: QUIT isn't a CTCP
19:24:00 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:24:26 <ais523> +ul (<CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>)S
19:24:32 <oklopol> asiekierka: oh, right, that actually is possible :P
19:24:36 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:24:45 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:25:01 <oklopol> subtraction, although that's not really a feat
19:25:04 <ais523> I think you officially win that contest
19:25:38 <ais523> now, the way I did divmod in my base-10 program was utterly different from that
19:26:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Now bus").
19:27:09 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:27:50 <oklopol> according to the log, took me about 15 minutes to get it
19:27:52 <asiekierka> BONUS POINTS: calculate it your subtraction method
19:27:56 <oklopol> but i wasn't really trying that hard
19:28:43 <asiekierka> I wonder if you can code something in DOBELA
19:29:12 <oklopol> all i can think atm is noprob
19:29:23 <oklopol> and how fucking annoyingly ironic the name is
19:29:45 <ais523> asiekierka: what about me?
19:29:58 <asiekierka> what about you? can you code something in DOBELA
19:30:34 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:30:56 * oklopol wants someone to tell him the truth about noprob
19:31:57 <asiekierka> noprob(lem with making this hard as hell)?
19:33:32 <asiekierka> Hm. I don't know if my esolang can calculate the Fibonacci sequence _easily_
19:33:51 <oklopol> fibs in underload, let's try that
19:34:41 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)(x)~^S
19:34:45 <asiekierka> You basically have an addition loop (I did it) only different
19:34:47 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S
19:34:59 <oklopol> asiekierka: you think i care whether it was done? :D
19:35:46 <ais523> well, you did increment in a loop
19:35:48 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)(:::***)(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^(x)~^S
19:35:49 <ais523> which isn't quite the same thing
19:36:01 <asiekierka> You can modify the increment value, that's one
19:36:18 <ais523> only if you split the : from the *, which is possible but non-trivial
19:36:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:37:52 <ais523> n is represented by n-1 :s and n-1 *s
19:38:07 <ais523> then use n to multiply up a : and a *
19:38:17 <ais523> just like it's used to multiply up xs in the standard unary output routine
19:39:20 <asiekierka> only because no-one cares about DOBELA programs
19:39:30 <oklopol> asiekierka: no one cares about most of things.
19:40:40 <oklopol> if you really care whether people care about everything you do, i suggest you either become famous, or find a good psychiatrist
19:40:40 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if I care about most of things
19:40:45 <ais523> it probably depends on what things are
19:40:57 <asiekierka> Oklopol: Nope, but this is my first esolang
19:41:08 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:41:16 <oklopol> asiekierka: well there's been more discussion than on many languages.
19:41:22 <ais523> ehird doesn't seem to believe that random people stop me in the street and say hello
19:41:25 <ais523> but it happened this morning
19:41:52 <oklopol> asiekierka: people have read the spec, and talked about it
19:42:16 <oklopol> but for instance, i doubt anyone even knows what my contribution to the wiki is
19:43:04 <ehird> asiekierka: are you religious? if so, you just called yourself a liar
19:43:13 * ehird disappears in a puff of logic.
19:44:07 * asiekierka takes a spell book and makes ehird reappear
19:46:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:48:02 * asiekierka adds (in) before "famous" in ais523's entry
19:49:25 -!- GiveMeMony has joined.
19:52:52 <ais523> just not saying things
19:53:02 <ais523> e's active in at least one other Freenode channel
19:53:21 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:54:57 <oklopol> ais523: a <r> is ending execution, and stack is "<r> <1> <2> (TOS)", is there any way to get <r> up from there?
19:55:07 <oklopol> asiekierka: channels can be +s'd
19:55:07 <ais523> asiekierka: there are a lot of secret channels on Freenode
19:55:14 <ais523> because channels are secret by default
19:55:15 <oklopol> didn't you read the rfc ;)
19:55:19 <ais523> and most people never bother to change that
19:55:28 <ais523> oklopol: yes, there is
19:55:37 <ais523> a~a will change <1> <2> into (<2>)(<1>)
19:55:44 <ais523> then * will give you ((<2>)(<1>))
19:55:51 <ais523> you can swap that stack element below <r>
19:56:01 <ais523> and later on, ^ will split (<2>)(<1>) back into <2> <1>
19:58:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:58:44 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:59:12 <oklopol> the idea is just to lift them in the string, in which case you can append them to either end
20:00:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:01:02 <ais523> oklopol: that sounds vaguely like how it's done, yes
20:01:03 -!- GiveMeMony has changed nick to M0ny.
20:01:32 <oklopol> <r> <1> <2> should be turned to <r> <1> <2> <r>
20:01:42 <oklopol> i first lift 1 and 2 into a string
20:02:35 <oklopol> then, i can either duplicate or append
20:02:39 <oklopol> the problem is i cannot do both
20:02:48 <oklopol> because if i append, i lose <re>
20:03:06 <oklopol> and if i duplicate, i lose the ability to use (<1> <2>)
20:03:09 <ais523> ah, there is a solution, let me try to remember what it is
20:03:51 <oklopol> remembering is inelegant when it comes to programming, mister :D
20:03:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:04:12 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:04:38 <oklopol> ais523: (<1> <2>) <re> (~^)+<re>
20:04:56 <oklopol> the solution is you can modify the thing you recurse to
20:05:08 <ais523> ah yes, that's what it is
20:05:23 <ais523> I've done that loads of times before, for some reason I forgot about it though
20:05:34 <ais523> and you probably mean something other than + there
20:06:09 <oklopol> +ul (this is param 1)(this is param 2)(:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:06:10 <thutubot> this is param 2this is param 1 ...: out of stack!
20:06:22 <oklopol> +ul (:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(this is param 1)(this is param 2)(:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:06:23 <thutubot> this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1 ...too much output!
20:11:39 <oklopol> +ul (:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:11:40 <thutubot> baababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output!
20:11:52 <oklopol> +ul (:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:11:53 <thutubot> b aababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output!
20:12:05 <oklopol> +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:12:06 <thutubot> b a ab aba abaab abaababa abaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababa abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output!
20:12:13 <ais523> asiekierka: floods the channel, I think
20:12:15 <fizzie> It makes a sheep-like sound.
20:12:29 <ais523> fibonnaci, but with two different characters
20:12:42 <oklopol> asiekierka: clearer code that way
20:13:17 <oklopol> because i cannot name the addition block, i would have to have that in the code, or somewhere in the stack, both would make it fairly cluttery
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20:13:52 <oklopol> not that that matters, just thought in this case it's sufficient to make it work conceptually
20:15:54 <oklopol> +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:16:00 <asiekierka> +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(a)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:16:01 <thutubot> a a aa aaa aaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...too much output!
20:16:06 <oklopol> +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:16:43 <oklopol> i didn't actually have any intermediate form, so it's not completely trivial to change the concatenation function
20:16:51 <oklopol> i can't actually *read* underload.
20:17:07 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo
20:17:21 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
20:17:21 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[>[.>]<[<]>]
20:17:25 <oklopol> +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:17:40 <oklopol> +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:17:42 <thutubot> x x xx xxx xxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
20:18:05 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo
20:18:11 <ais523> fungot seems lagged atm
20:18:11 <fungot> ais523: that's the point
20:18:14 <ais523> try not bothering it for a while
20:18:34 <asiekierka> +ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:18:34 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:18:34 <fungot> +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:18:35 <thutubot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:19:10 <asiekierka> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:10 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:11 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:11 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
20:19:11 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
20:19:46 <asiekierka> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:46 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:47 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:47 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:47 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:48 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:48 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:48 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:48 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:49 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
20:19:49 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
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20:20:20 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (:*) ...: out of stack!
20:20:20 <fungot> +ul (:*) ...: out of stack!
20:22:12 <asiekierka> CONTEST: Write an infinite loop between fungot and thutubot!
20:22:12 <fungot> asiekierka: stalin and larceny used some weird syntax error in it, but the
20:22:21 <ais523> asiekierka: I've done that before
20:22:31 <ais523> in fact, I did a multi-bot infinite loop
20:22:38 <ais523> fungot, thutubot and CO2Bot looped
20:22:39 <fungot> ais523: lots of editors have fully rebindable keys around. i just have to pick *some* ordering for the indices anyway
20:22:45 <ais523> and optbot said something every time round
20:22:45 <optbot> ais523: Look at that incredible string at the end.
20:22:56 <fungot> asiekierka: thanks for the advice. thank you very much
20:22:56 <optbot> asiekierka: That's what my "java" is, but apparently the problem was the .class was compiled with sun-jdk-javac.
20:23:27 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't like infinite loops because someone has to stop them
20:23:44 <ais523> which means quitting thutubot, normally
20:23:49 <ais523> and then I'd have to restart it, which is a pain
20:23:50 <asiekierka> You can just stop execution on thutubotter
20:24:00 <ais523> it's on a different server
20:24:05 <oklopol> i like competitions, i wish someone who was good at esolangs challenged me occasionally.
20:24:19 <ais523> oklopol: maybe I should have an esolang contest with you sometime
20:24:24 <ais523> not right now, though, I'm busy
20:24:39 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> do fungot&optbot&thutubot
20:24:39 <optbot> asiekierka: I know. I read it. I'm a Perl enthusiast, sorry.
20:24:39 <fungot> asiekierka: a checkpoint image, basically.
20:25:05 <oklopol> i'm fairly busy too, millions of pages to read
20:25:09 <optbot> asiekierka: the program would then be first => print "Hello world!"
20:25:10 <optbot> fungot: (Python is pretty crappy too)
20:25:10 <fungot> optbot: and opencroquet too. you probably simply want to use
20:25:10 <optbot> fungot: they're obviously completely different; one is about numbers, and the other is about numbers /and/ symbols
20:25:11 <fungot> optbot: considering how one keeps seeing it in places if it will be
20:25:11 <optbot> fungot: !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>++++++<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.>+++.<<.+++.------.--------.>+.
20:25:11 <fungot> optbot: there's a second complete set of modern apis and features that toys like python will have the money
20:25:13 <fungot> optbot: mit has ridiculously long hostnames, even respectable people; the part before
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20:25:44 <fungot> asiekierka: i find that my thingy is too slow to me
20:35:14 <fizzie> To get a smaller Wikipedia talk-page sample for fungot training, I decided to take every talk page whose title's crc32 checksum is divisible by 256.
20:35:15 <fungot> fizzie: poof! there go my weekends :)
20:35:37 <ais523> wow... that was really insightful in context
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20:36:12 <fizzie> The first five pages it picked up were 'Aland Islands', 'Ark of the Covenant', 'Commutator', 'Distilling' and 'Feminist Spirituality'.
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20:37:11 <fizzie> Commutator is the only page out of those five that I remember having visited. (And that was very recently.)
20:38:23 <fizzie> I need to do something to the MediaWiki markup before using those dumped-out pages, though.
20:39:31 <fizzie> Assuming the pages whose crc&0xff==0 are a representative sample, I should get something like 20 megs of wiki-text out of it. That's a nice little breakfast for fungot.
20:39:32 <fungot> fizzie: you could have
20:44:45 <asiekierka> fizzie: I must make a bot having all of Wikipedia
20:46:02 <fizzie> http://download.wikimedia.org/ -- though it's a bit big.
20:46:14 <fizzie> Around 8 gigabytes as a bzip2'd XML-dump.
20:46:43 <fizzie> Okay, the archive without user and talk pages is a bit smaller.
20:47:23 <asiekierka> I'm implementing it into a robot-like thing
20:47:30 <asiekierka> hooking up a CPU, an old speech synthesis thing
20:47:41 <asiekierka> To make the worst conversation robot EVER.
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20:50:09 <asiekierka> even with the 08-07-28 version, 7,3GB?
20:51:15 <asiekierka> Ouch, my robot thing will really need a fast hard drive
20:52:06 <asiekierka> Or is there a small conversation-oriented database for bots&such
20:52:08 <fizzie> 64 bits is very much enough to work as offsets into a 7.3-gigabyte file. Although it's 7.3 gigs compressed.
20:52:20 <fizzie> In any case, if you just want the articles, it's only 3.9 gigabytes.
20:53:24 <asiekierka> is there a special conversation database for bots?
20:54:12 <fizzie> If you mean just generic text that can be picked from, I've tried quite a lot of sources in fungot, but so far nothing has worked as well as just IRC logs.
20:54:13 <fungot> fizzie: many thread systems in scheme somewhere? at least it's more interesting make-foo in pure-fp :)
20:54:54 <asiekierka> that would give about the same amount as wikipedia's talk pages
20:55:02 <fizzie> I don't have a handy usenet archive, but I guess selected groups might work reasonably well.
20:55:29 <fizzie> I tried using a thousand transcribed ten-minute telephone conversations, but that wasn't terribly interesting.
20:55:48 <asiekierka> but you can't download the whole Usen---
20:55:57 <asiekierka> Google has the whole usenet mirrored... OR DO THEY
20:56:28 <fizzie> And if you feed the bot books (I've tried a couple of authors) it just speaks like it's reading a book, not like it's speaking.
20:57:06 <fizzie> I am quite certain this "1/256th of Wikipedia talk pages" experiment will be utterly uninteresting too, but who knows.
20:58:39 <fizzie> That's not really a new idea.
20:59:01 <fizzie> Er, it's just fungot. Completely homegrown, completely without any trace of intelligence.
20:59:13 <fizzie> See, even the bot admits it.
21:01:52 <fizzie> I've probably explained most of fungot's insides on the channel -- the stuff's in the logs, but it's not very interesting.
21:01:56 <ehird> It's written in befunge.
21:02:40 <fizzie> To be completely honest, most of the hard work in the babbling is done with boring "real" programming languages.
21:05:34 <fizzie> Heh, it just dumped out "Creation science/Archive 8". I don't envy the bot who's going to have to read all that.
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21:51:51 <AnMaster> ais523, As a native speaker, what would you call it when you wonder if a library can order a book they don't have in stock?
21:51:59 <AnMaster> I'm planning this for semaphores in ATHR
21:52:19 <ais523> is the common name for when you ask one library to borrow from another
21:52:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, what if they don't get it from another, but order it from a publisher, say if it is a new one?
21:52:50 <AnMaster> "interlibrary loan" could work too, and probably be better
21:52:57 <ais523> I don't know if there's a single word, you'd be requesting them to order a book, pretty much
21:53:05 <ais523> and I don't think if that abbreviates to one word
21:53:25 <AnMaster> however you will need to set it an advance, to set how many books there are in stock, before using that book
21:53:32 <AnMaster> so I need some good name for that
21:54:53 <AnMaster> also I think I solved the problem of funge space update, not sure how effective it is hm
21:56:01 <fizzie> You can ask the library to make a purchase order for the book. Although usually it's not the customer of the library who can specify how many books they will stock on their shelves. :p
21:57:03 <AnMaster> * Each thread keeps its own copy of bounds. * On write outside current bounds (for a thread), send an async update bounds message to all other threads, and to funge-space thread.
21:57:04 <fizzie> Actually the title of the form us normal people can fill is "acquisition suggestion form".
21:57:35 <fizzie> http://lib.tkk.fi/en/services/remote/wwwforms/acquisition_suggestion.html -- doesn't seem to contain a field for "amount of books", though.
21:58:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, well having several books in stock would be a neat way to integrate semaphores with it
21:58:54 <AnMaster> Slereah, in the library mutex paradigm
21:59:14 <AnMaster> a mutex is called a book, you borrow it to lock it, return it to unlock it
21:59:36 <AnMaster> which is a funge fingerprint for *async* threads
21:59:44 <AnMaster> which I'm speccing and implementing
22:02:09 <fizzie> Well, I think it's reasonable if the metaphorical semantics of your instructions are "ask the library to get N copies of book K"; after all, if there's an out-of-money, I mean, out-of-memory situation they might not concede your request.
22:02:25 <fizzie> You can probably pick the exact words depending on what sort of characters you have still free.
22:05:32 <fizzie> ADEHJKLMOUVXYZ, then... well, O for 'order books' is one possibility. Or that A for 'Acquisition request/suggestion' like they seem to be calling it in our University library.
22:39:24 <AnMaster> night, will work on it tomorrow (I hope)
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23:02:07 <oerjan> if things start too loose, it's probably obscene
23:04:17 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: i hate you
23:04:24 <oerjan> i'm cursed, i tell you, cursed
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