00:08:29 <oerjan> <oklopol> about the putting the actual befunge unlambda on the bot, isn't there a fingerprint for some kinda procedures?
00:08:58 <oerjan> gah, here i was about to get excited, until i remembered everyone is confusing unlambda and underload...
00:14:57 <oklopol> i really deserve a kickban for that.
00:15:17 <oklopol> really what the fuck is so hard about it
00:15:40 <oklopol> underload is this stack-based language
00:15:47 <oklopol> hi, have you ever considered trying underload
00:15:57 <oklopol> underload is so much cooler than drugs
00:16:12 <oklopol> in soviet russia, the load is under you
00:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the rest are the same.
00:16:34 <oerjan> +ul ((underload is)S:^):^
00:16:35 <thutubot> underload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload is ...too much output!
00:17:01 <oerjan> +ul ((underload is )S:^):^ there was a typo
00:17:02 <thutubot> underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is ...too much output!
00:17:35 <oklopol> btw. almost wrote one of my underloads as unlambda when writing those sentences
00:18:03 <oerjan> there is really only one way to atone for this, you know.
00:18:18 <oerjan> you must write a fully-functional unlambda interpreter in befunge.
00:19:04 <oklopol> ski i can do no prob; unlambda may require some though
00:19:28 <pikhq> Liberty has died further.
00:19:50 <pikhq> US *border patrol* can now perform searches and seizures on anyone within 100 miles of the US border.
00:20:14 <pikhq> That covers the vast majority of the US population...
00:21:07 <oklopol> i wonder when pirate bay starts considering founding "the planet of freedom" on mars or something
00:22:19 <pikhq> Covers fully 2/3 of the US population, actually.
00:24:01 * oerjan vaguely recall something about the USA having a constitution that people are fond of throwing against such things
00:26:22 <GregorR> Nah, our current president has convinced enough of us to give it up that that doesn't happen much anymore.
00:28:11 <pikhq> Our current President is on record as saying that the Constitution is a 'god-damned piece of paper'.
00:28:35 * oerjan wonders if he meant the first word literally
00:28:41 <GregorR> Sounds like something a gold-standard idiot would say (about different paper :P )
00:30:15 * oerjan suddenly realized "gold-standard" was _not_ a metaphor
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06:10:01 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNQLmHKlmiE
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11:06:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think mycouser got a bug with odd input for char input
11:06:23 <AnMaster> echo -e '2\0241\n2\n11\nto be or not to be\n' | ./cfunge ../mycology/mycouser.b98
11:06:34 <AnMaster> Please input a character: UNDEF: got 161 '¡39 0 '' which is hopefully correct.
11:08:55 <AnMaster> actually hm I don't have last mycology
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14:16:53 <ehird> Anyone know if there's a way to have a permanent folder in /tmp? I'd like /tmp/downloads to always be there but clean itself when /tmp does.
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15:43:19 <AnMaster> "Can't test o in linear text mode: i ignores spaces, no way to know from within standard Funge-98 whether they are output to file."
15:43:48 <ais523> then you have to handle all the possible newline conventions
15:44:01 <AnMaster> if there are spaces, it won't overwrite, if there aren't it will overwrite
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15:47:53 <oklopol> 0235753287575320235753287535320
15:48:12 <ais523> hmm... what are you doing?
15:48:24 <ais523> also, lol at the topic
15:48:37 <ais523> just an IRC-lol that makes no noise in real life
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15:51:03 <oklopol> i'm a bit tired, played world of goo all night
15:51:20 <oklopol> (i did finish the game, so it was time well used)
15:51:47 <oklopol> and no that's not a synonym for something perverted, it's a game
15:52:14 <oklopol> basically you build things out of these balls of goo
15:52:24 <oklopol> and now i feel like what i type is falling.
15:52:45 <oklopol> to the right, because there's more weights there
15:53:32 <oklopol> i really have a problem with my s's.
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17:04:52 <AnMaster> what the heck is a typed memory object.
17:06:11 <AnMaster> posix_typed_mem_open manages to totally fail at explain what they are and what they are meant for
17:10:59 * oerjan sees a reference to an IEEE standard
17:12:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap03.html#tag_03_418
17:13:19 <oerjan> it's not immensely clear though
17:16:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes "fail", but I read what I had written as "posix_typed_mem_open manpage totally" instead of what I really wrote "posix_typed_mem_open manages to totally"
17:16:40 <AnMaster> then fails would have been correct
17:17:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, however I still got no clue what the typed memory * stuff is
17:17:51 <oerjan> it's part of the Advanced Realtime group of options, whatever that is
17:19:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes I know what those are, there is some useful stuff in that group, for example very exact clocks and such
17:19:27 <AnMaster> ah wait that one is just Realtime, not Advanced
17:21:40 <oerjan> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/xsh_chap02_08.html#tag_02_08_03_04
17:23:18 <oerjan> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/xrat/xsh_chap02.html#tag_03_02_08_15
17:23:52 <oerjan> the last one actually gives some clue i think
17:25:09 <oerjan> it seems to refer to _physical_ memory types
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17:53:22 * AnMaster ponders multithreaded brainfuck
17:54:22 <AnMaster> no idea how to provide synchronisation in a way that fits with the language
17:54:43 <AnMaster> ehird, yes the name is good, but it would be shared memory
17:54:52 <ehird> I'm saying it already exists.
17:54:54 <ehird> And it's called Brainfork.
17:54:55 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird's trying to point out that it already exists
17:54:58 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfork
18:00:31 <oerjan> when the _web archive_ is borken too, it's time to take a break
18:09:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, it certainly times out here
18:10:03 <AnMaster> maybe google's cached version of the web archive version? :D
18:10:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, however I wonder how to do synchronisation in brainfork...
18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but below it?.
18:22:36 <ehird> [[Intelligence agencies, using intelligent software, can screen the contents of e-mail with relative ease]].
18:22:43 <ehird> Dumb agencies need not apply as they only have dumb software.
18:26:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: i assume the tape is shared. moving the pointer to the right in one thread wouldn't make sense otherwise. although the phrasing is a bit weird.
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18:27:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I would implement it as: shared thread, + and - atomic, each thread got it's own pointer
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19:16:13 <oerjan> +ul (o)(~:S(ok)*~:^):^
19:16:14 <thutubot> oookookokookokokookokokokookokokokokookokokokokokookokokokokokokookokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokok ...too much output!
19:16:41 <oerjan> +ul ( o)(~:S(ko)*~:^):^
19:16:42 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
19:17:13 <oklopol> better to be scared to half to death than to death half scared be to
19:17:49 * oerjan assumes that makes sense in finnish, or something
19:18:09 <oklopol> nah that was an american dad quote, sometimes i like to copypaste what i hear on channels.
19:32:34 <AnMaster> about that POSIX for DOS thing (DJGPP or whatever it was) someone said it didn't support fork(), well I think POSIX kind of forbids that. "{CHILD_MAX} precludes the possibility of a "toy implementation", where there would only be one process." (quote from rationale for adding pid_t)
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19:46:25 <ehird> AnMaster: he is not there.
19:46:41 <ehird> fork() just always fails on djgpp
19:46:42 <AnMaster> ehird, right, I had checked /whois, it didn't say away
19:46:48 <ehird> CHILD_MAX is 1, presumably.
19:46:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Tough shit.
19:47:00 <AnMaster> Maximum number of simultaneous processes per real user ID.
19:47:00 <AnMaster> Minimum Acceptable Value: {_POSIX_CHILD_MAX}
19:47:08 <AnMaster> Maximum number of simultaneous processes per real user ID.
19:47:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Embedded systems will break that rule, anyway.
19:47:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well I'm just quoting standards
19:47:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Standards are irrelevant.
19:48:07 <ehird> Anything involving the real world.
19:48:51 <AnMaster> there is a good reason for standards, and if there were no standards no program would be portable, ever
19:49:06 <ehird> Weird. See, people write portable things without standards all the time.
19:49:14 <ehird> It's called testing on multiple platforms and you have to do it anyway.
19:49:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so if C wasn't portable, and only existed for one platform, you would need to write polygots to get it working on multiple platforms
19:50:10 <ehird> C once didn't have a standard.
19:50:17 <ehird> People still wrote perfectly fine programs for it.
19:50:27 <AnMaster> agreed, but it got one after a while. Which helped a lot
19:51:41 <oklopol> if you print a standard out on chocolate bars, you can eat it
19:52:36 <ehird> oklopol: True, true
19:52:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, highly relevant, except you need a standard chocolate bar format for printing
19:52:56 <oklopol> AnMaster: well sure if you want to do some serious metaeating
19:52:57 <AnMaster> I mean should be... Y4 (for Yum)
19:53:02 <ehird> AnMaster: The point is that nobody actually gives half of a damn if DJGPP disobeys the standard by - gasp - giving the correct value.
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19:58:03 <ehird> What is the command printing out the unix timestamp?
19:58:07 <ehird> I cannot think of it for the life of me
19:59:16 <ehird> You'd think it'd be easier. huh.
19:59:33 <AnMaster> ehird, note that %s is a commonly supported non-standard extension iirc
19:59:41 <AnMaster> POSIX date may not have such a command ;P
19:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Aren't standards wonderful, mmhm?
20:00:25 <ehird> 122496122070678410976191059206867952173936457386
20:00:28 <ehird> What a nice nonce!
20:00:28 <AnMaster> in fact on a DeathPOSIX 9000 you would need to write a C program using time() to do it
20:00:49 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't look like a current date...
20:00:50 <ehird> Now to rewrite that in php. Fleargh.
20:00:58 <ehird> AnMaster: It's timestamp + large amount of random data.
20:01:02 <ehird> Well, 16 bytesworth.
20:01:09 <ehird> And to justify the php thing: i have no choice, relaly
20:01:10 <AnMaster> what do you plan to use it for?
20:01:19 <ehird> I'm modifying the phpMyID openid server to use pgp for authentication
20:01:23 <ehird> and using the firegpg extension to do it
20:01:28 <ehird> so it'll automatically sign the nonce that comes back
20:01:30 <ehird> thus proving I'm me.
20:02:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it's just like ssh authentication
20:02:25 <ehird> server gives a nonce, browser auto-signs the nonce, server checks signing is correct, voila
20:02:37 <ehird> Ofc, it's still protected by a passphrase.
20:02:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think php got functions for both time stamp and random, but I got no clue how good that prng is
20:02:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm just going to read from /dev/random.
20:11:32 * Sgeo gasps at http://pixelcomic.net/287.php
20:11:47 <AnMaster> "Those employing applications written in high-level languages, such as C, Ada, or FORTRAN." (http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/xrat/port.html)
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21:28:28 <SimonRC> Sgeo: what's to gasp at? it looks all blurry to me
21:29:16 <Sgeo> The fact that there was an update
21:32:18 <SimonRC> I have known some of my comics go longer than that between updates
21:33:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use cfunge release or last bzr?
21:33:52 <AnMaster> Only I'm planning a new release within a few days and I would need someone to test it on OS X
21:33:57 <SimonRC> Argon Zark once went for over a year in the middle of a fast-paced action scene
21:34:24 <AnMaster> SimonRC, what comic are you talking about?
21:36:05 <SimonRC> since it started in 1997 it has managed a grand total of 77 updates
21:36:42 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I usually read well updated ones
21:36:56 * AnMaster tries to remember for how long userfriendly have gone without an update
21:37:10 <AnMaster> I think once or twice the *daily* comic have been late due to server issues
21:37:31 <AnMaster> irregular webcomic seems very very regular too
21:37:45 <AnMaster> xkcd is regular, so is darth and droids
21:37:55 <AnMaster> and those are all the webcomics I read
21:38:03 <fizzie> "Last" bzr, where "last" in this case means revno: 441, timestamp: Sun 2008-10-19 18:29:41 +0200.
21:38:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, care to try out the very last?
21:38:24 <AnMaster> there have been some changes that could cause issues
21:38:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, please also report warnings, not just errors :)
21:39:02 <AnMaster> (I know about a few warings in genx, but other than that there shouldn't be any assuming you aren't on gcc 4.2.x when you may get inline ones too)
21:39:08 <SimonRC> the total to beat though is Doctor Fun, the first comic on the web (as distinct from the first web comic), which went for 10 years exactly with no misseed updates
21:39:27 <AnMaster> oh and possible one about "possible infinite loop cannot be optimised"
21:39:31 <SimonRC> (I recommend the archives' content: like Gary Larsson without the incomprehensible ones
21:39:38 <fizzie> How "within a few days" you want? I'd be using the OS X laptop on Monday next. I guess I could theoretically speaking set it up here, but I'm not sure I have electricity outlets comfortably reachable from this table.
21:39:51 <SimonRC> I do *not* recomment the archives' form.
21:40:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, I was thinking tomorrow evening or maybe Monday evening
21:40:33 <fizzie> Well, I could check the laptop still works, haven't booted it up lately. Maybe I'll try it now.
21:40:34 <SimonRC> Sorry about the typing, Im' on a really crap connection here
21:41:14 <ehird> gpg authentication with phpmyid
21:41:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, somehow I bet ehird won't help me checking if cfunge works on OS X
21:41:27 <AnMaster> otherwise I would have asked him of course
21:41:41 <SimonRC> (probably bst to start browsing here, I think: http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/)
21:41:54 <AnMaster> SimonRC, what is that comic about?
21:42:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I would help if I could compile it, which I imagine I can't..
21:42:32 <ehird> Tarball link please
21:42:45 <ehird> last updated 06, iirc.
21:43:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well tarball, point is trying current bzr version, but I could export it to a tarball, will take a minute or two to fix
21:43:23 <ehird> Thanks. I don't have bzr on here
21:43:25 <ehird> (as nobody uses it :P)
21:43:48 <ehird> Btw. Anyone who wants to test: When you click 'Login' at http://elliott.hird.name.eso-std.org/id/, it should just say 'login failed'. Does it?
21:44:16 <AnMaster> Omploaded 'cfunge_r455.tar.bz2' to http://omploader.org/vdjly
21:44:30 <ehird> LOL ... PHP6 is using a backslash as namespace seperator
21:44:59 <AnMaster> those are like the common ones
21:45:04 <ehird> and because the php team is a bunch of bumbling retards.
21:45:06 <AnMaster> even / would work better than \
21:45:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope they don't get such a silly idea as prefixing it with [A-Z]:\ though.... I guess no one would be that mad
21:46:03 <ehird> C:\Namespaces\NATURAL MAPPING\
21:46:26 <ehird> Well, that's pretty close to RDF (triples of URIs; base of the entire semantic web) and XML
21:46:32 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, C:\ would be a too silly idea, no one outside this channel would think of such an idea
21:46:40 <ehird> @prefix foaf: <http://xmlns.com/foaf/1.0/>
21:46:48 <ehird> <http://elliott.hird.name/> a foaf:Person .
21:46:52 <ehird> there, foaf:Person is shorthand for...
21:46:58 <ehird> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/1.0/Person>
21:47:10 <ehird> the analogy only works, though, if php code consists of multiple file paths
21:47:16 <ehird> ... which I wouldn't be surprised at. :D
21:47:49 <ehird> AnMaster: It compiled.
21:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway cfunge should be easy to compile on OS X, some time ago I had access to a mac and even noted it worked when generating xcode project
21:48:01 <ehird> Bunch of pedantic warnings, but that's just your code.
21:48:07 <ehird> $ cmake .; make did it
21:48:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well care to pastebin warnings?
21:48:16 <ehird> didn't even read the readme :P
21:48:22 <ehird> AnMaster: stuff like
21:48:23 <ehird> [[/Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c: In function ‘finger_STRN_itoa’:
21:48:26 <ehird> [[/Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c: In function ‘finger_STRN_itoa’:
21:48:26 <ehird> /Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c:242: warning: ISO C does not support the ‘q’ printf length modifier]]
21:48:42 <ehird> in fact, those are all the warnings apart from in genx
21:48:58 <AnMaster> stringbuffer_append_printf(sb, "%" FUNGECELLPRI, n);
21:49:15 <ehird> FUNGECELLPRI = "q", i assume.
21:49:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll put a #warning in there to see
21:49:54 <Deewiant> which makes it "qd", probably.
21:50:00 <ehird> Deewiant: ah, there.
21:50:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but PRId64 is defined by standard
21:50:22 <fizzie> Yes, I also only get that 'q' printf length modifier.
21:50:24 <AnMaster> so the implementation use a non-standard value for it
21:50:33 <ehird> % ./cfunge examples/hello-concurrent1.b98
21:50:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, funny thing is, OS X is warning about it's own headers
21:50:51 <AnMaster> since PRId64 comes from the system header inttypes.h
21:50:56 <ehird> it's warning because you specified a shitload of overly-pedantic compiler options.
21:50:58 <Deewiant> the funny thing is that C has no module system
21:51:06 <Deewiant> so you can't know where the "q" came from.
21:51:12 <ehird> [[./cfunge examples/pi2.bf 1.29s user 0.01s system 97% cpu 1.325 total]]
21:51:18 <Deewiant> I'm sure GCC is full of hacks to figure stuff like that out.
21:51:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the pre-processor could trace it
21:51:42 <Deewiant> that's not what the pre-processor is meant to do
21:52:35 <fizzie> There's a comment in inttypes.h where it defines the 'q': "these could be -- "ll" -- but that doesn't work on 10.2, and these do".
21:52:45 <AnMaster> also I have tested on freebsd 6.3 and Linux 2.6.(25|27)
21:53:07 <ehird> Okay, so now I just need to: 1. Buy elliott.hird.name 2. write a FOAF document 3. ??? 4. Prophet
21:55:13 <AnMaster> why .name? I thought no one used that
21:55:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Quite a few people do; the nice thing is that it gives me elliott@hird.name
21:55:43 <ehird> I'm not actually going to use it for my -site-, just as a little identity thingy.
21:55:55 <AnMaster> err, how do you get one from the hird one?
21:56:04 <ehird> AnMaster: .name registrations are mostly at the third-level
21:56:12 <ehird> SURNAME.name for all common surnames is taken
21:56:24 <ehird> and you can get NAME.SURNAME.name unrestricted, which also gives you NAME@SURNAME.name
21:56:34 <ehird> Ofc, you can get fdfgdfgdf.name, but not, say, smith.name.
21:56:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Why for english ones only?
21:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Try it, foo.name will resolve if it's reserved ;-P
21:57:10 <AnMaster> hah my surname doesn't resolve
21:57:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I wouldn't say it's a common surname. :Lp
21:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't that uncommon in Sweden
21:57:46 <ehird> Quick, buy it and resell subdomains on it for insane prices!
21:57:48 <fizzie> They seem to have mx0[1-5].nic.name doing the emails for those surname-level names.
21:58:04 <ehird> fizzie: You just give them a forward address, I think.
21:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well not that common either
21:58:15 <ehird> So if my sitey-type-thingy is foobarbaz.org, then i'll just forward it to ehird@foobarbaz.org.
21:58:26 <ehird> You can send email from it too
21:58:32 <ehird> So I guess it's kind of a proxy-servy-thingy.
21:58:39 <ehird> You still use your mail server, but it goes through theres.
21:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, the telephone search thingy lists 1000 hits (max 1000 hits shown)
21:59:08 <fizzie> Heh, kallasjoki.name doesn't resolve either. There's approximately ten of us in Finland, and approximately zero elsewhere.
21:59:24 <ehird> fizzie: Well, considering everywhere else is Finland, that's a bit redundant.
22:00:29 <ehird> It's amazing how little I had to change to get phpmyid to use pgp authentication.
22:00:46 <ehird> I don't think I ended up touching anything outside of the one function.
22:01:13 <fizzie> According to the freely available statistics service thing (last updated 20.10.), there's 10 people (5 male, 5 female) who currently have the surname "Kallasjoki", "less than five" (it doesn't show the exact number in that case) who used to have it but changed, and 7 who are deceased.
22:01:29 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:01:29 <ehird> fizzie: Just a tiny single family, then? :-P
22:02:24 <fizzie> ehird: Well, it wasn't very many generations away when a predecessor decided to change it to "Kallasjoki" from "Kakkinen", which.. uh, is not a very good name.
22:02:40 <AnMaster> There is even a street named after someone else with my surname in this town, sadly it includes the first name too, so I can't easily claim it was named after me ;)
22:02:43 <fizzie> Given that fi:kakka is approximately en:poop.
22:02:54 <fizzie> (And the -nen is a common diminutive suffix.)
22:03:13 <fizzie> Yes, something like that.
22:03:18 <ehird> Best surname ever.
22:03:25 <ehird> elliott.littlepoopy.nae
22:04:06 <fizzie> Also it's one letter away from being "kakkainen", which would have almost exactly the meaning "poopy", in the "covered with poop" sense.
22:04:34 <fizzie> There's a lot of people in the Lieksa graveyard with "Kakkinen" etched on their headstones.
22:04:39 <AnMaster> hm was it ehird who suggested avoiding fork() to make it easier to port to windows?
22:05:11 <ehird> Me or Deewiant, likely.
22:05:21 <fizzie> (Actually the statistics thing says a total of 992 "Kakkinen"s in Finland -- 400 deceased, 386 former names, 206 current.)
22:05:22 <AnMaster> I have the solution to the issue.
22:05:32 <AnMaster> int posix_spawn(pid_t *restrict pid, const char *restrict path,
22:05:32 <AnMaster> const posix_spawn_file_actions_t *file_actions,
22:05:32 <AnMaster> const posix_spawnattr_t *restrict attrp,
22:05:32 <AnMaster> char *const argv[restrict], char *const envp[restrict]);
22:06:06 <AnMaster> however it is optional in POSIX
22:06:14 <AnMaster> so I would need fork() as a fallback
22:06:45 <AnMaster> and yes I need something that can mess with fds to set up pipes on fd 3 and fd 4 for the child
22:07:05 <AnMaster> so either pipe() fork() and dup2() or pipe() and posix_spawn()
22:07:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Just put an ifdef in for windows, srsly. :p
22:07:37 <ehird> You'll have to learn like one winapi function.
22:08:01 <AnMaster> likely that will exist on windows anyway
22:08:04 <ehird> Yes. Just learn CreateProcessExtraUltra2000Deluxe, I mean, it's just one function.
22:08:17 <ehird> no, Ex was part of Extr
22:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I'm happily awaiting patch since I got nothing to test it on.
22:09:14 <ehird> Just install VirtualBox or something.
22:09:48 <ehird> (Unless you feel guilt in ripping off a few precious dollars microsoft.)
22:10:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Getting the 'from' in the right place.
22:10:21 <AnMaster> no you wrapped from several times
22:10:32 <ehird> proportional font <.<
22:11:08 <ehird> SimonRC: Old fart!
22:11:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you first "^ from" was under the "a" in "of a few"
22:11:57 <AnMaster> the next one was way after the )
22:12:33 <AnMaster> SimonRC, you use a proper font for irc?
22:12:50 <ehird> Excuse me for preferring to keep my eyes happy with proper font spacing and metrics. :p
22:13:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you are pardoned if you don't do it again ;P
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22:15:00 <fizzie> Re "Kakkinen", from what I've heard, *that* name came as a Finnishization of an old name "Gagge" -- I'm not quite sure of the spelling or meaning. I seem to recall someone saying it meant a "round, sort of a barrel-shaped person", but I can't seem to Google©®™ any good references.
22:15:53 <AnMaster> assuming it may have been from Swedish
22:16:03 <fizzie> Yes, most of the names around here are.
22:16:15 <fizzie> Could be "Kagge" for all I know.
22:16:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, which means stomach, often in the reference to round and oversized
22:17:12 <fizzie> Oh, okay. That sounds very likely.
22:17:57 <fizzie> English etymology dictionary for the word 'keg' gives "Swed. kagge, Norweg. kagge, a keg, a round mass or heap. Prob. named from its roundness."
22:18:23 <ehird> Little Poopy Stomach
22:18:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, however in modern usage it is used about fat stomach
22:18:48 <AnMaster> I think it may actually refer to a round container in older usage
22:19:02 <fizzie> I can understand them changing the name from "a fat guy" to something else, but I *really* can't fathom why change it to "a poopy guy".
22:19:04 <AnMaster> however it is not a word I use actively
22:19:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, as I said in older usage it may actually mean a round container, for liquid iirc
22:19:55 <AnMaster> and since you can get fat from that, I guess that is why it changed meaning
22:20:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for "poopy" it may have meant something else back then
22:20:37 <ehird> little fat poopy guy
22:20:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, the story I told was that the name was given to some ancestor of us in a Swedish army or other, and based on the physical resemblance to a keg, in the "barrel of liquid" sense.
22:20:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no you can't use several meanings at once
22:21:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes i can
22:21:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, well would be fat then I guess ;P
22:21:11 * SimonRC never notivced the similarity of English cack and keg before now.
22:21:39 <fizzie> I don't have any good reference materials for Finnish language, I don't know how recent the "kakka" thing is.
22:21:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you manage "kk"?
22:22:34 <fizzie> Finnish is full of double-consonants. I'm not good at all in explaining pronunciation, though.
22:23:00 <AnMaster> I mean Swedish use double consonants to make the vowel in front short, but we use ck not kk
22:24:04 <fizzie> Well, laterals ('L') are easy to elongate.
22:24:13 <AnMaster> since (also) is "också", not "ochså"
22:24:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, um? We never make the consonants long
22:24:37 <AnMaster> we make the vowels in front short
22:25:09 <AnMaster> I guess this means it is LR(2) or so in that aspect
22:25:10 <fizzie> Wikipedia "Gemination" article says you do: "In some languages, e.g. -- Swedish -- consonant length and vowel length depend on each other. That is, a short vowel within a stressed syllable always precedes a long consonant or a consonant cluster, whereas a long vowel must be followed by a short consonant."
22:25:33 <fizzie> Finnish and Japanese are mentioned in the third paragraph.
22:25:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, hrrm. Do they give any examples?
22:26:26 <fizzie> Basically it's pronounced by simply making the pause longer.
22:26:32 <fizzie> For stop-style consonants.
22:26:58 <fizzie> The others ('rr', 'nn' and such) are of course trivial.
22:27:33 <AnMaster> what ones would be "stop style"?
22:28:38 <AnMaster> damn don't have any Swedish /usr/share/dict/* here and can't think of any example
22:28:44 <AnMaster> also kk never happens it is ck
22:29:33 <fizzie> And based on some Wikipedia reading, the nasal consonats are also called "stops", but those don't really count.
22:30:18 <fizzie> In any case, Finnish makes the consonant/vowel-length variation mean completely different words. Wikipedia gives the example taka "back", takka "fireplace", taakka "burden".
22:30:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean tt would cause a long pause after it?
22:30:58 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA").
22:31:01 <fizzie> No, the pause before the actual sound burst of 't' is elongated.
22:31:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is no pause on either side of any t (except after the word)
22:31:59 <fizzie> There is a pause *in* 't'. The vocal tract is closed there, then opened which produces the actual t-like sound.
22:32:11 <fizzie> Just record it and look at it in Audacity if you don't believe me. :p
22:32:31 <fizzie> I guess it's called "hold" and not "pause", but anyway.
22:32:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't check right now due to ppl sleeping in the next room and thin walls
22:34:11 -!- peek_you has joined.
22:35:58 <fizzie> In any case, the hold-time before the tongue (in case of "t") is released is made longer.
22:39:56 <fizzie> There's actually a Wikipedia English example -- in English gemination seems to occur mostly just across words -- for geminated 'k': "black coat", which is pronounced [blæˈkːoʊt]. So there's a single geminated 'k' sound, not two distinct 'k's.
22:55:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:55:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have any idea how to list open fds for a process? from inside gdb preferred
22:58:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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22:58:33 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal.
23:00:23 -!- kwertii has joined.
23:02:55 <ehird> AnMaster: heres how .name works -
23:03:00 <ehird> when you buy a.b.name, b.name is then reserved.
23:03:06 <ehird> so hird.name is reserved from someone.hird.name
23:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird, can you register b.name directly?
23:04:29 <ehird> (then people can't register a.b.name, obviously)
23:05:49 <ehird> but elliott.hird.name is appealing to me mostly for the elliott@hird.name tie-in
23:10:15 <ehird> http://www.getfirepow.com/ are all these "MAKE MONEY SOFTWARE COOL" sites made with the same software...?
23:10:24 <ehird> They all look identical
23:13:15 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum...").
23:14:25 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, if I had my surname I could get whatever@thatname.name
23:14:37 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, you could
23:14:43 <ehird> but i can't get hird.name :-P
23:15:06 <ehird> due to someone else buying <foo>.hird.name
23:15:08 <ehird> come to think of it
23:15:11 <ehird> it might have been me
23:15:15 <ehird> as i used to own elliott.hird.name
23:16:00 <AnMaster> ehird, how expensive are .name?
23:16:15 <ehird> same cost as most domains, though sometimes a little more expensive
23:16:35 <AnMaster> well I don't know the normal cost
23:16:51 <AnMaster> (how do you pay for them since you are too young to have a credit card hm?)
23:16:52 <ehird> AnMaster: hmm, about 79 kronor a year, i think
23:16:55 <ehird> though i might have got that wrong
23:17:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well if you had pasted it in Euro or whatever I could have converted
23:17:19 <ehird> AnMaster: i converted with google :-P
23:17:27 <ehird> also, in the uk there's this silly cardy thingy for people 13 and over
23:17:34 <fizzie> AnMaster: Usually just "ls -l /proc/pid/fd/" is enough on Linux.
23:17:48 <ehird> it's called a "cash card". which, iirc, makes withdraws fail if you don't have enough money on it
23:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, there is? Strange, I got my card around when I got 18
23:17:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not a proper credit card
23:18:22 <AnMaster> ehird, also I have mine fail if I lack money on my account, no credit when I don't have stuff
23:18:46 <ehird> before that - actually i don't recall if my registrar supports those cardy things atm, been a while since i registered a domain - i used the "parental overlord registers + i pay back in cash" method
23:19:26 <AnMaster> actually my card is only valid in the cash machines, not for shopping with
23:19:51 <ehird> thinking about it, i believe i've only ever made one transaction with that card since i got it in august
23:20:11 <ehird> (buying an album from http://warpmart.com/, I think)
23:20:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure, openbsd's /proc probably doesn't expose that info. It's somewhere in the kernel's data structures, obviously; it's been so long since my openbsd days that I don't really remember what sort of tools there were for digging it.
23:20:50 <fizzie> Also, "lsof" has a "for this pid" mode, and I think it does openbsd too.
23:20:56 * AnMaster still remember the looks he got when he paid for a 4 digit camera using 3 digit paper money.
23:21:06 * Sgeo checks out the Intellichat thingy
23:21:13 <AnMaster> though that was before I turned 18
23:21:37 <ehird> i look way younger
23:21:45 <ehird> i'm about as tall as a 8-9 year old
23:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't recall.
23:22:24 <GregorR> People guess that I'm around 22.
23:22:39 <ehird> haha, the php \ namespace separator won over: **, ^^, %%, :>, :), and ::: .
23:22:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with :: ?
23:22:50 <ehird> :> i like the smilies :)
23:22:58 <ehird> AnMaster: it's used for ClassName::STATIC_VAR, I think
23:23:16 <ehird> string concatenation (inherited from perl)
23:23:25 <fizzie> Still, C++ does :: for ClassName::STATIC_VAR and has no problems using additional "foo::"s for namespaces.
23:23:29 <ehird> AnMaster: $obj->meth
23:23:40 <ehird> fizzie: except php is, as i said, run by a bunch of bumbling retards
23:23:50 <ehird> they probably can't make the parser do that
23:23:54 <ehird> AnMaster: func_name()
23:24:40 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't have func-name and 1 - 2 without insane parsing shit
23:24:45 <ehird> dylan did it, so does xslt
23:24:53 <GregorR> <ehird> i'm about as tall as a 8-9 year old
23:24:57 <AnMaster> ehird, err you can have - in function names in many languages
23:25:05 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure scheme got it, oh wait yeah right
23:25:06 <ehird> AnMaster: not the same languages with infix mathematics.
23:26:34 <AnMaster> I thought // was commend in php?
23:27:01 <oerjan> hm wasn't there some language that used ' as a separator?
23:27:02 <ehird> @function(errors,will,be,silently,ignored)
23:27:16 <ehird> AnMaster: its because:
23:27:25 <ehird> will yell to the browser the error
23:27:28 <ehird> and there's no exception structure
23:27:44 <ehird> ¤ is not on most keyboards
23:28:17 <ehird> AnMaster: a ? b : c
23:29:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what oerjan said about ' above
23:29:14 <ehird> 'string without interpolation'
23:29:43 <AnMaster> I only knew what interpolation was for images...
23:30:07 <ehird> a, b, c; works I think
23:30:28 <ehird> bit | masks & fuck_yeah
23:31:12 * SimonRC wishes Javaa had a good syntax for saying "If this argument to the method is null, don't call the method but just result in null".
23:31:16 <ehird> AnMaster: a > b && b < c
23:31:27 <SimonRC> Being able to do that for the dispatch object would be a good start even
23:31:36 <ehird> AnMaster: php's parser is shitty, ad-hoc and is not context sensitive.
23:31:40 <ehird> it cannot do that, i believe.
23:31:45 <ehird> namespace><foobar><Abc
23:31:49 <ehird> is ... impossible to read
23:31:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you could make >< one token with higher priority than >
23:32:10 <ehird> AnMaster: you think it has a proper lexer?
23:32:14 <ehird> it's a big mass of ad-hoc c
23:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd assume lex/yacc but I guess I were wrong
23:32:56 <ehird> I'm going now, anyway. Bye.
23:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, but if it sees a + then?
23:33:36 <AnMaster> does it think that can't be ++ ?
23:34:33 <fizzie> oerjan: Perl supports both :: and ', but the latter one is rather rarely used. One of the perldoc pages says which language ' comes from, but I can't find it. There was some sort of sentece about "I'll use :: so C++ programmers can pretend they know what's going on -- I could've used ' so that <foo> programmers ..."
23:35:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, but perl got an amazing parser, it has to or it couldn't handle that language
23:35:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I'd use a single :
23:35:30 <SimonRC> fizzie: I have a nagging feeling that ' is from ADA
23:36:02 <fizzie> That was my recollection too, but couldn't be sure.
23:36:10 <SimonRC> (then there is the great ML-family-vs-Miranda-family debate: : for cons and :: for type annotation, or ice-versa)
23:36:58 <SimonRC> AnMaster: the first one is reminiscent of one of those small crazy languages, like Io or such
23:37:04 <fizzie> "[Using :: instead of '] also makes C++ programmers feel like they know what's going on--as opposed to using the single quote as separator, which was there to make Ada programmers feel like they knew what was going on."
23:37:18 <AnMaster> I took the : syntax from Erlang actually
23:37:43 <oerjan> probably got it from Prolog?
23:37:59 <AnMaster> what lang is Io? I heard the name before
23:38:07 <AnMaster> more and more recently in fact
23:38:11 <oerjan> there are two languages by that name
23:38:36 <oerjan> the small, crazy and nearly esoteric one that few remember
23:38:52 <oerjan> and some object-oriented fancy thing
23:39:06 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(programming_language) is the only one on wikipedia
23:39:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, so which one did SimonRC mean?
23:39:21 <AnMaster> and can you tell me about the small crazy one
23:39:26 * SimonRC tries to remember if Io is the one with omnipresent backtracking
23:39:33 <SimonRC> like the list monad being everywhere
23:39:46 <oerjan> SimonRC: no that's Icon
23:40:28 <AnMaster> tell me about the Io one that is small and crazy
23:40:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: there's a link from the new IO to the old one iirc
23:41:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, not on their front page at least
23:42:14 <AnMaster> http://iolanguage.com/issues/browse.cgi
23:42:25 <oerjan> their page seems to have changed a lot
23:43:04 <SimonRC> Ah, no Io is the smalltalk with the source code attitude of LISP
23:43:24 <SimonRC> i.e. source code is a directly-accesible tree of objects that is trivil to manipulate
23:43:36 <oerjan> SimonRC: not the crazy one then
23:43:51 <oerjan> the _really_ crazy one, that is
23:43:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, anything useful on http://web.archive.org/web/20060613184339/www.iolanguage.com/about/ ?
23:45:32 <oerjan> both the links in there are to wayback
23:45:54 <oerjan> er wait i'm reading _in_ wayback
23:47:18 <oerjan> Amalthea was from the esolang community iirc
23:47:44 <oerjan> or from the older mailing list
23:48:48 <oerjan> http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/amalthea.html
23:51:00 <AnMaster> probably should try to learn that language one day
23:51:29 <AnMaster> I wonder if it suggests using CamlCase...
23:52:11 <oerjan> i don't quite remember
23:52:21 <AnMaster> would be rather funny if it did
23:54:10 <AnMaster> two ;; for ending statements!?
23:54:37 <oerjan> in ocaml? yeah it's ugly
23:54:49 <AnMaster> well ok, I don't want to learn it
23:55:07 <AnMaster> ugly syntax, but nice idea/implementation
23:55:19 <oerjan> there's an improved syntax using its preprocessor iirc
23:56:48 <oerjan> F# the .NET language is based on ocaml and i vaguely recall (from discussions) that it has an improved syntax too
23:56:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
23:58:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, F# is horrible, I checked it out a bit ago (just checked examples on wikipedia page)