00:00:07 * oerjan remembers there were fresh apples around
00:00:47 <AnMaster> haskell got a kind of messy syntax too, but F# is way worse
00:01:00 <AnMaster> and yes I realise this may upset some people her
00:01:05 <Asztal> I prefer Haskell's syntax so far
00:01:28 <oerjan> from my landlady's garden
00:01:43 <AnMaster> Asztal, scheme syntax is way more elegant
00:02:04 <AnMaster> isn't there some liskell or something?
00:02:10 <Asztal> elegant, yes, easy on the eyes, not really
00:03:14 * oerjan swats AnMaster for insulting haskell syntax ----###
00:03:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I still do it, I think the entire ML family of languages got a horrible syntax
00:04:36 <oerjan> haskell's syntax is quite different from ML. it belongs to that Miranda family mentioned above
00:05:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, well Haskell is ugly too
00:05:49 <SimonRC> nah, Haskell's got a reasonable syntax
00:06:16 * SimonRC thinks up a C-like syntax for Haskell
00:06:27 * AnMaster prefers prolog like or scheme like
00:06:37 <AnMaster> C is ok but prolog style or lisp are better
00:06:49 <SimonRC> AnMaster: but it's all superficial; there isn't anthing horrible underneath
00:07:22 <AnMaster> what about those ugly ` everywhere?
00:07:42 <AnMaster> hamming = 1 : map (2*) hamming `merge` map (3*) hamming `merge` map (5*) hamming <-- example from wikipedia
00:07:42 <SimonRC> depends on how you're using it
00:07:53 <oerjan> those are superficial too
00:07:53 <AnMaster> seen them used in lots of Haskell code
00:08:31 <SimonRC> they are the syntax for making infix operators out of ordinary functions
00:08:39 <oerjan> it's not a dead key in US keyboard i think
00:08:41 <SimonRC> since when was ` a dead key
00:08:53 <AnMaster> SimonRC, on my keyboard ` is Shift-' Space
00:09:05 <AnMaster> they don't care about i18n then ;P
00:09:40 <SimonRC> you could, like, not use infix functions with text names then
00:09:55 <SimonRC> suggest a better notation?
00:09:55 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I prefer scheme, there are no strange ones
00:10:10 <AnMaster> so that is not very i18n friendly either
00:10:21 <AnMaster> scheme seems to be very i18n friendly
00:10:27 <SimonRC> you could write the above without te backquotes in LISP style instead
00:10:52 <AnMaster> SimonRC, still to much syntax sugar
00:10:54 <oerjan> hamming = 1 : merge (merge (map (2*) hamming) (map (3*) hamming)) (map (5*) hamming)
00:10:59 <AnMaster> better have one way to write everything
00:11:08 <oerjan> the infix merge really helps in that case
00:11:37 <SimonRC> currying is very nice, even though you could use lambda
00:11:57 <AnMaster> Lisp is the solution to every problem :P
00:12:03 <SimonRC> AnMaster: haskell doesn't use lists as source code in the same way
00:12:07 <Asztal> I think it definitely makes things more readable in the case of things like `isPrefixOf` and maybe `fmap`
00:12:13 <AnMaster> SimonRC, that is another downside
00:12:31 <AnMaster> I like i18n friendly languages
00:12:32 <Asztal> only for you with your dead keys :)
00:12:43 <SimonRC> but the price of lists as source code is lists as source code
00:12:53 <oerjan> scheme has ` too, remember
00:12:55 <AnMaster> Asztal, and Finnish, and Norwegian (iirc) and Danish and so on
00:12:56 <Asztal> I just use AltGr for those
00:13:05 <AnMaster> Asztal, and lots and lots of non US/UK users
00:13:21 <SimonRC> if you have a function with two arguments, you need a way to seperate the arguments and a way to specify what the function is
00:13:26 <SimonRC> an infix operator does both at once
00:13:29 <Asztal> yes, there's even a UK keyboard which has ` as a dead key
00:13:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, ok scheme has ` in macros, but I don't use scheme macros a lot since they are messy
00:14:03 <oerjan> ` is not just for macros
00:14:06 <SimonRC> AnMaster: you can avoid ` in Haskell too if you like
00:14:15 <oerjan> it's useful for building lists with lots of fixed parts
00:14:26 <SimonRC> but in LISP-likes, you must seperate the operands with space, which is not as distinctive as an operator
00:14:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm ok, never used it outside macros
00:14:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oh... darn, (a (5)) isn't considered a special form since what is evaluated and what is not is decided at the beginning of the eval-function....
00:14:32 <fizzie> There is also not much use for quasiquote/unquote if you use syntax-rules macros or some-such; just in defmacro-like "raw code transformers" things.
00:14:58 <AnMaster> SimonRC, look in C-like language I write foo(bar, quux) so that is , space
00:15:57 <AnMaster> but I normally avoid all macros
00:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You have to use hacks to make CSS do the right things in different browsers..
00:16:39 <fizzie> Personally I've made undead (zombified?) the two dead keys (acute+grave-accent and umlaut+tilde+hat) the Finnish (and I guess Swedish too) keymap has, since I type ^, ~ and ` a lot more often than accented characters.
00:17:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, would seriously confuse the random other users of this computer :/
00:17:41 <fizzie> It's just in my personal xkb configuration.
00:17:50 <fizzie> Although this computer doesn't have any other users either.
00:18:17 <AnMaster> and how would you use the dead key ones when you need them
00:19:00 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure; there are some xkb layout-switcher thingies that put a small icon in the system tray for that.
00:19:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, would this be in .xmodmaprc ?
00:20:46 <fizzie> There's a xkb "variant" of at least the fi keymap called "nodeadkeys". Seems like I've put it into xorg.conf here, but the same effect should be achievable by just arranging for "setxkbmap fi nodeadkeys" to be executed somehow.
00:21:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do sometimes use dead keys so
00:21:42 <fizzie> Well, you could configure some keyboard shortcuts to fiddle with the mapping. That of course depends on the desktop environment in use.
00:21:55 <fizzie> I use awesome on this box, which is pretty rare, I guess.
00:24:01 <fizzie> Well, in KDE I'm pretty sure you can just use the configuramation places to configure a per-user keyboard layout setting.
00:24:15 <fizzie> It would be pretty strange if it wasn't a per-user thing.
00:24:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, It messes with my xmodmap
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03:14:20 * Sgeo can't believe oerjan doesn't know who Warrigal is
03:14:21 <ihope> The skull on my desk is from the same family as the warrigal.
03:14:32 <ihope> How would oerjan know who Warrigal is?
03:15:14 <Sgeo> oerjan, can't you at least figure it out?
03:15:43 <oerjan> i found definitions, but no proper names
03:15:43 <ihope> I asked for a canine skull, and got a vulpine skull. Still canid, though.
03:16:45 <ihope> Presumably, either Sgeo or Warrigal arrived soon before Sgeo said "hi Warrigal".
03:17:20 <oerjan> there is no Warrigal here
03:17:50 <ihope> Well, his nick isn't Warrigal.
03:18:37 <oerjan> ihope: so you were foxed?
03:19:27 <ihope> I wonder how easy it is to get the skull of a warrigal.
03:19:29 <oerjan> (We apologize for the delay in our pun service)
03:20:03 <ihope> Warrigals are "vulnerable", according to the IUCN Red List, according to Wikipedia.
03:21:02 <ihope> I guess they can be trapped and poisoned in some areas.
03:23:40 <ihope> So probably not more than a couple hundred dollars.
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03:37:26 <ihope> Fox skulls on eBay are pretty cheap, it seems. I wonder if shipping can be $30 for a $20 item.
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03:38:12 <Slereah> Why are you looking for fox skulls
03:40:01 <ihope> Just wondering how much they cost, really. My fantasies include buying a dingo skull (none of those on eBay) and... I dunno.
03:43:03 <Slereah> I hope you're not buying those for anything immoral.
03:47:28 <ihope> What immoral things could you do with a skull, apart from scaring people?
03:49:23 <Slereah> ihope : Are you willing to see NSFW pictures as an answer
03:50:43 <Slereah> Then, you will never know :o
03:51:21 <ihope> Unless grinding it into a powder, dissolving the powder in acid, and sprinkling the mixture on flowers is NSFW.
03:57:18 <ihope> My cat is now sniffing the skull intently and licking it a little. The lower jaw's going to fall out from under it if she keeps touching it like that.
03:57:37 <ihope> I guess it still smells like either a fox head or glue.
03:58:44 <oerjan> how do you know if a cat is hallucinating anyhow?
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03:59:13 <Slereah> If it meows about giant mice
03:59:52 <ihope> If it's responding to absent stimuli, it's hallucinating?
04:00:59 <ihope> It's more likely that it smells of glue than that she's hallucinating that it smells of glue.
04:01:06 <Slereah> Cats always respond to inexistant stimuli
04:01:54 <oerjan> i mean, maybe she's getting high on it
04:03:15 <ihope> Any glue on it is at least a few days old, perhaps many years old.
04:03:57 <oerjan> oh well. go make a lolcat picture or something.
04:04:04 * ihope offers her the foramen magnum, that being where the brain went
04:04:29 <ihope> I think it mostly smells like me.
06:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Not sure what ACPI is, though. heard the term, but I don't know what it is. I'm silly,.
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06:49:34 <oklopol> hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii :)
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07:17:27 <Asztal> hmm... F#'s syntax really is annoying
07:28:50 <oklopol> err is it a functional language?
07:45:21 <psygnisfive> wait no sorry i was thinking of another language
07:52:48 -!- mental has changed nick to lament.
07:53:57 <oklopol> why don't i have a cool anagram
07:54:36 <oklopol> if i was oclopock, i could have "cockpool"
07:54:57 <oklopol> lockpool is easier, but that makes no sense
07:58:07 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklokok.
07:59:03 <Asztal> oh, how boring, I have... aszalt, meaning dried/parched/desiccated :)
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08:02:10 <oklokok> hehe, my irl name has the anagram "i loves all"
08:02:33 <Jiminy_Cricket> the name "daniel stanley" has the best anagram: "needs it anally"
08:05:45 <psygnisfive> your last name is an anagram of either sole or sola
08:07:29 <oklokok> psygnisfive: well i said that partle because i knew you'd start wondering about my name (assuming it's not in my whois, i haven't checked)
08:09:25 <psygnisfive> i should know, if im gonna be your slaveboy
08:10:19 <lament> my name is nothing special, but my phone number is FETUS-71
08:10:28 <lament> ( http://dialabc.com/words/search/ )
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08:17:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
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08:24:48 <oklokok> (haha i'm also "loli slave")
08:27:59 <oklokok> the anagram engine didn't know the term "loli" for some reason
08:28:19 <oklokok> me too, i should ask them to add it
08:31:41 <oklokok> My original loli slave amputee story
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09:46:36 <AnMaster> Asztal, F#? Pronounced as F-blunt right?
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10:22:56 <fizzie> I made some befunge-commentation javascript: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html
10:22:57 <fungot> fizzie: i cannot assume good faith and leave it. peace. user:deeceevoicedeeceevoice 15:20, 23 nov 2004 ( utc) fnord
10:23:37 <fizzie> Haven't added much comments, but you can see the format in http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt -- all that is parsed with client-side javascript to make that thing. You should be able to click on the regions and see the comment text.
10:23:37 <fungot> fizzie: negative liberty means freedom from interference. classical liberalism is the opposite of social conservatism. ' ' google" and ' ' must" be added to the article.
10:23:54 <fizzie> And it probably only works in FF3, because I suck at cross-browser-stuff and that's what I used to write it.
10:28:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can view comments in ff2
10:29:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, in konq 3.5.x the green and blue aren't transparent
10:29:40 <AnMaster> so you can't see what it comments
10:29:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, also is it suppoed to not be scrollable?
10:30:41 <fizzie> Do you have one or two scrollbars in there?
10:31:09 <fizzie> Yeah, actually in FF3 too; I broke the height calculation when I added some padding in the top panel.
10:31:15 <AnMaster> in konq one goes away when I resize, in ff2 it doesn't
10:31:38 <AnMaster> scroll wheel still doesn't work in either
10:32:36 <fizzie> In here the scroll wheel works if the mouse is in the scrollable region. The top comment-display-area is supposed to stay fixed, and only the code part should scroll. But I have apparently broken it.
10:33:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, it also scrolls sideways in ff and konq
10:33:56 <fizzie> Well, I removed the padding now. In FF3 it now works correctly.
10:34:00 <AnMaster> considering the code "box" is less than 1/3rd
10:34:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, works in ff2, still no scrollwheel working in konq
10:35:01 <fizzie> I was in the middle of trying to think of something to say there when I noticed the scrolling issues.
10:35:07 <fizzie> So I just wrote something and saved.
10:35:35 <fizzie> Maybe konq does scrollwheel-scrolling only for the page, and not for separate elements of the page.
10:35:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, possible, but I think it works in text boxes and such
10:36:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, if focus is in a text box I can scroll it
10:36:42 <AnMaster> so I need to click in the text box once
10:36:53 <AnMaster> can't scroll your page even when I click in it
10:36:59 * AnMaster checked on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit
10:37:15 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's just a <div>, not a form element which could really have the focus.
10:37:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway since the green areas are opaque in konq it isn't very usable there
10:37:51 <AnMaster> since I can't see what they comment
10:38:16 <fizzie> Yeah. Those should get the transparency from a dynamically created CSS rule for the corresponding class, which has "opacity: 0.2;" in them.
10:38:26 <fizzie> Since the colors get set correctly, I think the CSS rule generation at least works.
10:38:38 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't do CSS3 "opacity", although that sounds a bit strange.
10:38:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh you claim to be xhtml 1.1?
10:38:42 <AnMaster> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fzem.fi%2F~fis%2Ffungot.html
10:38:42 <fungot> AnMaster: according to fnord, the land neighbouring roman gaul. it is meant to work. apparently, they never got fnord 22:54, 29 december 2006 ( utc
10:38:58 <fizzie> Yes, I just copied the page from some earlier one.
10:39:04 <fizzie> Haven't had time to check for validity yet.
10:40:31 <fizzie> Should probably move the javascript part to a separate file anyway.
10:41:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use PERL btw? If yes my local copy have some changes, it uses fcntl to set "close on exec" flag for SOCK fds
10:45:48 <fizzie> Okay, down to two errors now. Funny that it doesn't let me use xsi:schemaLocation there -- the <html> start tag looks very much like the example one in http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/conformance.html#strict
10:46:42 <fizzie> Yeah, I get the same error from the validator if I copy-paste the "example of an HMTL 1.1 document" there to a page and try validating that.
10:47:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I can't load the example. firefox says www.w3.org timed out
10:49:21 <fizzie> Strange; it does speak to me.
10:49:41 <AnMaster> seems firefox is stupid and use same round robin dns entry every time
10:50:15 <fizzie> Also strange that it doesn't allow the "id" attribute in the 'style' node; it is listed in the allowed attributes in the xhtml-modularization document. Oh-well.
10:52:03 <AnMaster> curl -H "Host: www.w3.org" http://128.30.52.38/TR/xhtml11/conformance.html | less works
10:53:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that comment app generic enough to be useful for other programs?
10:53:37 <AnMaster> does it offer some web interface to edit comments?
10:53:57 <fizzie> No, of course not; that's a lot more work.
10:54:25 <fizzie> I don't see why it shouldn't work for other programs, though.
10:54:56 <fizzie> Well, those would get the side-scrollbar, which might mess up the height calculation somewhat.
10:55:27 <fizzie> That's probably relatively simple to fix, though. It's just that my CSS-fu is weak.
10:55:33 <AnMaster> well mycology isn't as wide as my monitor
10:55:57 <fizzie> 1920x1200 here, but I have only about 60 % of it allocated to the browser.
10:56:37 <fizzie> Re the opacity in konq, I could trivially fix that by duplicating the underlying text -- then it wouldn't need transparency at all, actually.
10:57:39 <AnMaster> may be messy in other browsers if you get offset wrong
10:57:39 <fizzie> Maybe I'll think about doing it that way.
10:57:55 <AnMaster> + selecting text is harder then
10:58:12 <fizzie> It could already be a bit messy if the borders go wrong, and at least ff3 makes text-selecting feel difficult even currently.
10:58:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, selecting text works very well in ff2
10:58:47 <AnMaster> even within the middle of a green block
10:59:02 <fizzie> Even a selection that spans a block boundary?
10:59:26 <fizzie> In FF3 it keeps selecting the spaces that are in the block if I try to select there.
10:59:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you start inside a block yes
10:59:42 <AnMaster> if you start outside it wraps around the other way
10:59:44 <SimonRC> what is this " http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html Things
10:59:46 <fungot> SimonRC: this guy seriously looks like an old fnord o'brien. maybe this is because every friday and saturday night mainstream media portrays sex workers as the easy target for violence on dull cop shows." totally unnecessary. fnord ( user talk:ironangelalicetalk) 01:59, 4 august 2007 ( utc)
11:00:10 <fizzie> Well, that's what I get if I start in the middle of the box and try to make the selection go out of it.
11:00:19 <fungot> SimonRC: if it's accurate, i am unsure about the " only to find nothing of the validity of the definition which is appropriate in this page refer to the character if this were better it would belong at national anthem --user:wetmanwetman 05:31, 15 july 2007 ( utc)
11:00:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, works fine for level 1 boxes
11:01:05 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it is a befunge comment viewer
11:01:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw for me ; ; work fine
11:01:18 <fizzie> It's not that strange if you consider the implementation: it's currently done by sticking another "white-space: pre;" div positioned on top of the code text, filled with spaces but with the commented area spaces in suitable <span> tags.
11:01:21 <AnMaster> since my funge coding style is very linear
11:01:34 <AnMaster> so I end up using 11x> at the end of each line
11:01:54 <AnMaster> followed by comments past column 75 or so
11:02:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes copying the selected text doesn't actually work
11:03:24 <fizzie> I was thinking about doing it by generating separate (empty) div-rectangles that were just positioned on top of the commented areas, but couldn't figure out a very clean way to specify a constant width for characters (without making those separate boxes too).
11:04:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, I require that using the function to increase text size should work ;P
11:04:57 <fizzie> I guess I could've used <span> tags in the source text, and then some javascript to position the comment-marker-divs using those spans as markers.
11:06:52 <fizzie> At least with FF3 the text-size-changing mostly works, although occasionally I get some white or darker-green horizontal lines inside blocks, from overlapping or gaps between the per-line <span>s.
11:06:58 <AnMaster> hm what would that be in HQL? ON EVENT CLICKING ON ELEMENT span DO INVOKE JAVASCRIPT FUNCTION "CommentClicked" WITH ATTRIBUTE id OF THIS ELEMENT AS PARAMETER
11:08:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is there are but of white space between every row even in the green commented blocks
11:08:18 <AnMaster> but there is some white space between each line
11:08:25 <fizzie> Oh, there is? There's not in FF3.
11:10:17 <fizzie> It's a bit tricky positioning. I use "line-height: 14px; font-size: 12px;" and then there's one pixel of bottom-padding in the comment colors. It seems to work correcly in ff3 (if I add more padding I get darker-green lines, indicating overlap) but not everywhere, I guess.
11:10:39 <AnMaster> well this is a case of underlap rather
11:12:08 <fizzie> Yes, I get "underlapping" too if try without the padding.
11:12:58 <fizzie> I think I can guess what it looks like. It probably gets fixed if I add one-pixel top-padding too to rows with no top border, but that causes overlapping in ff3.
11:13:15 <fizzie> Maybe the "span markers on the code layer and javascript-positioned empty divs on top" would be more robust, as then I could use the exact position of the next-line box for height.
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12:01:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vdmJ5
12:02:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, no idea why there is unclickable green inside the blue frame
12:11:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems green areas are no longer clickable at all
12:13:18 <AnMaster> the two lowest green areas are clickable
12:14:04 <AnMaster> blue yellow and red areas are all clickable
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12:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so... in the case where the two factors are as big as possible.
12:37:42 <fizzie> There should be green inside the blue, that's by design; but right, the clicking thing might be a problem.
12:38:28 <fizzie> I think it's the spaces on the second layer (those blue/yellow/red ones) are occluding the green things.
12:39:41 <fizzie> I'll probably redo that with the "absolutely positioned divs with javascript" thing at some point, that way the clickability should be simply based on the ordering of the div boxes.
12:39:57 <fizzie> The "green inside blue" is by design.
12:40:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the green not being clickable elsewhere either?
12:40:52 <AnMaster> the reload green can't be clicked for example
12:41:10 <fizzie> That's strange; that one shouldn't have problems.
12:41:31 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the second layer box that's occluding it, not the actual spaces.
12:41:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, nor the main one for loading fingerprints
12:41:59 <fizzie> Yeah, you can click the right side of the reload box, at least in FF3.
12:42:26 <AnMaster> but the one for loading fingerprints you can't click at all
12:42:28 <fizzie> The width of the second layer comes from that red box, so you can click anything that's more to the right.
12:42:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's odd. How comes you could click it when it was blue or yellow?
12:43:05 <fizzie> Red, blue, yellow are all on the second layer.
12:43:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well before the red existed you could click green anywhere, even when there was blue
12:43:59 <AnMaster> anyway that kind of breaks a lot if it breaks in ff3 too so you'd want to fix it
12:44:16 <fizzie> Yeah, I'll try with the div-box approach, just not right now.
12:46:07 <AnMaster> $ bzr ci -m 'Add comments to TOYS for what the function actually does, not just based on official function names.' <-- TOYS have so strange function names
12:46:30 <AnMaster> yeah I know they are intercal ones and so on
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12:47:10 <ehird> dayum, all the clocks have gone back
12:47:22 <ehird> you know what's annoying
12:47:31 <ehird> what's annoying is having clocks that automatically change
12:47:33 <ehird> and clocks that don't.
12:49:13 <AnMaster> what is even more annoying is radio-synced clocks that didn't update because of weak signal in the bedroom
12:49:28 <AnMaster> you have to move them somewhere else to get them to update
12:49:47 <ehird> well, right now I know that british time right now = GMT, which is more or less = UTC
12:49:51 <ehird> (apart from some leap second crap)
12:50:08 <AnMaster> ehird, Sweden went from CEST to CET during this night
12:50:43 <ehird> in britain, (BST = GMT+1) -> GMT
12:51:20 <AnMaster> ehird, do uou have the issue with radio-updated clocks that didn't sync too?
12:51:29 <ehird> not sure, i wouldn't really know :-P
12:51:42 <ehird> but most of the clocks haven't gone back.
12:52:01 <ehird> i know that the clock on this computer is right due to ntp.
12:52:19 <AnMaster> my alarm clock can't get signal in my bedroom, have to put it in the window of another room
12:52:30 <AnMaster> computer clocks of course use ntp here
12:52:58 <ehird> i wish os x does what windows did/does; when the clock changes due to daylight savings it gave you an alert box telling you so
12:53:10 <ehird> which is nicer than just changing it without telling you.
12:53:19 <AnMaster> ehird, huh? Why? It was mentioned in the news paper yesterday iirc
12:53:41 <ehird> that's relevant if you regularly read a newspaper :-P
12:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do spend on average 20 minutes every day reading the newspaper
12:54:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, I'm in England, we don't exactly have a large selection of decent newspapers to choose from.
12:55:19 <AnMaster> we have local paper and one country-wide one. The country wide one usually have better quality, but the local one is useful for local news (duh).
12:55:52 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't there one called "Guardian" or so in UK? Heard someone said it was good
12:56:01 <oklocod> why would anyone read the news, it's a bunch of quidditch.
12:56:28 <ehird> AnMaster: There are a few decent newspapers. However, they all have sites with their articles on and I'm a cheap technophile. :-P
12:56:52 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I see no need for computer to tell me time have changed
12:57:14 <ehird> well I was disoriented when I saw it saying 11:57 when I had just looked at a clock saying 12:57
12:57:29 <ehird> (It was actually just 11:00 or so, that's the time now.)
12:58:13 <AnMaster> ehird it always tell me what timezone anyway:
12:58:37 <ehird> "Sun 11:58" is all I get in the corner, I could change it but that's all I generally ever need to know.
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12:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you don't check it from terminal?
12:58:55 <ehird> Wonder if I can get it to say YYYY-MM-DD.
12:59:08 <ehird> AnMaster: It's easier to shoot my eyes to the corner of the screen than switch to a terminal and type "date\n".
12:59:26 <ehird> LOL you can get it to speak out the time on the hour
12:59:27 <ehird> with text to speech
12:59:31 <ehird> how uselessly amusing
13:00:38 <pikhq> ehird: But not by much. :p
13:00:40 <ehird> Haha, you can get it to blink the : in MM:SS.
13:00:54 <ehird> pikhq: I check the time often enough for it to be significant.
13:01:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Not even the Long Now people go that far. :-P
13:01:07 <ehird> (They use 5 digits.)
13:01:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Now_Foundation
13:02:15 <AnMaster> Well then... "Ultra-long life, now 10 times longer"
13:02:34 <ehird> AnMaster: That would be a very boring life. :p
13:02:51 <AnMaster> ehird, nah life is too short already, too much to do
13:03:10 <fizzie> I've got a HH:MM in my screen stats-line nowadays.
13:03:20 <ehird> I wouldn't want to live for 800 or so years.
13:05:02 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/screen.png
13:06:36 <fizzie> (And the timestamps are off a bit right now, I do not need to be notified about that.)
13:09:27 <ehird> Gratuitous Large Screenshot with Gratuitous Blurring of IM Contacts: http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/picture-1770.png (Note that the colours are probably a bit off due to stupid gamma correction crap in png and psd and blaaaaaaaah)
13:09:45 <ehird> (But it's probably not noticable.)
13:12:43 <ehird> (And yes, that is Firefox, just with a nicer theme than the OS X default.)
13:13:14 <fizzie> I could take a full-screen screenshot of this too, but since the window manager is awesome -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awesome_(window_manager) -- it would be probably approximately as interesting as that screenshot that's already in Wikipedia.
13:15:16 <ehird> fizzie: No love for xmonad? :_p
13:16:37 <fizzie> I pretty much picked a random tiling wm.
13:17:01 <ehird> xmonad is written in haskell and has an X monad.
13:17:08 <ehird> and a fibonacci-spiral tiling mode
13:17:23 <fizzie> Well, awesome has a fibonacci-spiral tiling mode stolen from xmonad, I think. :p
13:18:16 <ehird> Huh: [[# The .name Registry may stop forwarding of messages that are larger than 20 MB in size.]]
13:18:21 <ehird> (This is some unreliable document from 2004, though.)
13:18:30 <ehird> And it's not like I send attachments anyway.
13:26:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, now the fungot page is even worse in konq
13:26:14 <fungot> AnMaster: i would like to suggest reverting article back and discuss future changes. by the portuguese in british india.
13:26:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah, two obsolete browsers.
13:26:49 <AnMaster> y offset yes, but x is still at 0 for every of them
13:27:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it's under construction now.
13:27:17 <fizzie> I'll let you know if I want someone to test it.
13:27:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't mean they aren't obsolete.
13:27:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and there is a tiny green overlap now in ff2
13:27:31 <ehird> AnMaster: <fizzie> I'll let you know if I want someone to test it.
13:27:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yes? It got here toe same second as I send my line
13:28:07 <AnMaster> I was already pressing enter by then
13:28:10 <ehird> It got here a second before. :p
13:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well here it didn't, and you can't assume such things about other ppl's connection
13:29:19 <ehird> Assuming that your message would come first is also an assumption that may be incorrect.
13:30:16 <AnMaster> I never assumed anything about anyone's connection except that lag is less than 30 seconds
13:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, so what did you mean with your last comment (<ehird> Assuming that your message would come first is also an assumption that may be incorrect.) ?
13:31:24 <ehird> If I were to say that IRC was unordered, thus having no ordering assumptions, I could not follow any conversations.
13:32:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you can know that two messages are in relative order to each other the way your server saw it. You can at most get an offset of one message in any given convo I think.
13:33:01 <AnMaster> you can't see a response by A on a message from B that you haven't yet seen
13:33:39 <AnMaster> this is due to the spanning tree protocol. Should a mesh network be used instead it would not however be valid
13:34:15 <AnMaster> also two messages from the same sender always arrive in relative order
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14:28:20 <ehird> So how do you people generate passwords.
14:29:14 <ehird> Yeah, but I don't have your brain, I can't remember dsfjkshdfiury7834687ryfhf.
14:29:20 <ehird> And my current password is le suck.
14:29:48 <oklocod> well i generate only like 8-10 char passwords usually
14:43:01 <fizzie> Okay, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html is now built with divs positioned with messy messy javascript, and therefore should be clickable in all the right places. There's still (in ff3) some empty spaces between lines that need fixing, and it's quite useless if the browser doesn't support css3 "opacity".
14:43:01 <fungot> fizzie: the content of the societies in question ( fnord kind of race riot seattle produced was different, and that it can be added to the actual memo, is a synonym of ' country' in the fnord
14:45:22 <fizzie> Should indicate the clicked block somehow, also.
14:45:46 <ehird> fizzie: how do YOU generate your passwords
14:45:57 <ehird> oklocod: commented fungot
14:45:58 <fungot> ehird: please note that it's not intentional, i have also posted a picture on this link: fnord
14:46:00 <ehird> click on the blockies
14:46:17 <ehird> fizzie: make the clicked block darker background
14:46:31 <ehird> also make them a wee darker on hover over, so it's more obvious how to use it?
14:47:17 <oklocod> ehird: i know it's commented fungot, but what i was wondering was if that was the output of a program made for commenting befunge
14:47:18 <fungot> oklocod: the polygamists tract is word-for-word from a tract tony alamo wrote. the fnord is a useful reframe option from the behaviour to the intent for the behaviour). likewise you can have " homo sapiens" redirect to " human" and mg and i can see that there is a very widely used in britain. fnord wang yu: version 2 05:12, 30 may 2006 ( utc
14:47:38 <oklocod> okay, then i've missed something i wouldn't have wanted to miss
14:47:43 <oklocod> should start reading the logs.
14:47:50 <fizzie> Well, sort-of, if you call the javascript thing a program. There's no real editor to make those comments, though.
14:48:09 <fizzie> oklocod: It just uses a manually written file -- http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt -- to outputize it.
14:48:09 <fungot> fizzie: what do y'all think? -user:silencesilence 21:31, 28 january 2008 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip !--autosigned by sinebot--
14:48:29 <oklocod> well okay that's much less interesting
14:48:40 <ehird> it's still befunge commented
14:48:44 <ehird> just you write it in a weird format
14:49:05 <ehird> i can't imagine you'd want an actual interface oklocod :
14:49:07 <fizzie> I'll try to make the hoverization at some point. It's just that the nonrectangular blobs are built out of many divs, so I can't just stick .hl:hover { opacity: 0.4; } in there, otherwise it only darkens one part of it.
14:49:22 <ehird> fizzie: Your system kind of sucks. :D
14:49:33 <ehird> give each comment block an id in the class
14:49:41 <ehird> then .comment-34:hover .hl
14:50:21 <oklocod> ehird: i was very interested in seeing a befunge ide
14:50:28 <ehird> i'm gonna write one
14:50:40 <oklocod> i'm gonna write everything sometime.
14:51:04 <oklocod> my goal is to make the perfect programming language, then program everything with it
14:51:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure that will work; most of the things I've tried have still applied the :hover style only to the single specific div that the mouse is actually hovering above.
14:51:25 <fizzie> All the comment blocks have unique CSS classes, though, so I can do it with a bit of javascript which changes the class opacity.
14:52:29 <fizzie> Anyway, there's those ugly inter-line gaps to worry about too.
14:53:34 <ehird> fizzie: border-bottom: 3px solid greeeeeeeen
14:53:52 <ehird> i use .foo:hover .bar often
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14:55:33 <fizzie> But that's just "bar"-classed elements that are children of a "foo"-classed div that is being hovered on, isn't it?
14:57:20 <ehird> fizzie: then just .uniqclassthing:hover will work
14:57:33 <ehird> i was thinking <div><div/>+</div> structure
14:58:13 <fizzie> I think I tried that, but it still only changed the opacity of the single div of that class that I was hovering on. (Which is what I think it should be doing, too.)
14:58:33 <ehird> fizzie: you can't express that, no
14:58:46 <fizzie> I could put those separate divs inside a shared parent, but I can't put the parent anywhere visible (so that it would notice the cursor hovering) because it'd be a rectangular blob and block anything below it.
14:59:09 <ehird> now how do you generate passphrases?
14:59:23 <ehird> div { opacity: 0 }
14:59:27 <ehird> div .hl { opacity: 1; }
14:59:38 <ehird> div { background: rgba(0,0,0,0); }
14:59:47 <ehird> (s/div/therightclass/ ofc)
15:00:29 <fizzie> I don't think it will: if it's "visible enough" so that it notices the cursor hovering above it, it feels like it'd also be visible enough to block elements under it from receiving clicks. Although I haven't tried all possible combinations.
15:00:36 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just javascriptize a bit, it might be simpler.
15:00:51 <fizzie> Oh, and passwords; I just use pwgen and then agonize about someone backdooring it.
15:01:39 <ehird> what sort of passwords does it generate?
15:02:02 <fizzie> There's some flags. I usually use the "use really random and symbols too" options.
15:02:26 <ehird> fizzie: and how do you memorize them? I'm beginning to think I just have a shite brain :p
15:03:16 <fizzie> I tend to remember them pretty easily if they are passwords I actually need to use. The others (like random websites and such) I keep on an encrypted volume in a simple text file.
15:04:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> So how do you people generate passwords. <-- bash script that filters non printable chars from /dev/urandom
15:04:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, that's very nice, and I do that, but then I have to store it somewhere or I forget it in 5 minutes.
15:05:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah I keychain program is useful for random sites
15:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but then you have to pick a master password.
15:05:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and that I don't plan to tell anything about to anyone
15:06:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Then I'm not sure why you responded to my question as my question was how do you generate memorable passcodes
15:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well the question didn't include the word "memorable"
15:07:08 <ehird> Obviously I could have guessed "store them all in a keychain randomly generated".
15:07:17 <ehird> That's not rocket science. Generating a human-consumable password is.
15:07:44 <ehird> I could probably remember a password with symbols in it, but randomly mixed case would likely trip me up.
15:07:49 <AnMaster> login, keychain and gpg key have non-totally-random ones (and so does a few other). Long ones.
15:08:08 <ehird> I'm considering DiceWare.
15:08:25 <ehird> http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html
15:08:30 <ehird> I've seen some reccomendations for it.
15:10:08 <ehird> essentially i'm planning on consolodating everything into what is essentially a keychain
15:11:39 <ehird> The model: i have an ssh & gpg key with the same passcode (only different seperate you can't use one for the other...) - which is memorable but complex, and if someone gets a hold of my machine and that passcode i'm basically fucked (neither of which are likely, unless i pick a really stupid password and go dancing around with this machine in public.). Then I have a file on rutian encrypted with my gpg private key.
15:11:57 <ehird> And that file includes long, randomly-generated, unmemorable passwords.
15:12:01 <ehird> Which I use for sites.
15:12:09 <ehird> In fact, I don't even need it on rutian.
15:12:12 <ehird> I'll just do that.
15:12:18 <ehird> And then some Firefox+FireGPG+Greasemonkey automation
15:12:29 <ehird> so that I can just hit 'login' and enter my gpg passcode if i haven't already that firefox session
15:12:49 <ehird> So, a single point of failure (computer+passcode), but an incredibly unlikely one.
15:12:51 <AnMaster> ehird, aren't there good existing alternatives?
15:12:53 <ehird> And also convenient.
15:13:17 <AnMaster> I'm sure there are ones for OS X too
15:13:23 <ehird> AnMaster: OS X has a built-in keychain.
15:13:42 <ehird> But you're missing the point absolutely.
15:13:50 <ehird> The point is that it's tied to my gpg key.
15:14:04 <AnMaster> and why exactly do you want that?
15:14:16 <ehird> my gpg key & my ssh key and the applications thereof - I trust their security to the highest degree, and I can easily manage them both.
15:14:26 <ehird> It is only natural to build it on top of that.
15:14:37 <ehird> It's also more portable than the Keychain, ofc.
15:14:47 <ehird> Although I'd never actually put it on another machine, naturally.
15:15:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Why wouldn't i?
15:16:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Then why did you say it in the first place?
15:16:11 <ehird> Oh, let me guess - it was a jab at my OS X usage?
15:17:05 <fizzie> Okay, the fungot.html page has opacity-setting on hoverization and clickation.
15:17:06 <fungot> fizzie: map you are mentioning is official ( if we are going to contribute to an encyclopedia entry. right now it just reads like an essay rather than an encyclopedia article about science. fnord used science to justify their work to themselves from an ethical perspective by instigating a course at kings ( london) entitled ' the social impact of the fnord
15:17:32 <fizzie> I'd go to the lectures if our university had a course called "the social impact of the fnord".
15:17:33 <ehird> fizzie: The rollover change is alsmost unnoticable on green blocks
15:17:50 <fizzie> Yes, I may rethink the colors themselves at some point.
15:18:07 <ehird> Very nice, though.
15:18:13 <fizzie> Currently it's opacity 0.15 by default, 0.25 when hovering and 0.5 when selected.
15:18:17 <ehird> fizzie: I'd suggest not having to click, though, actually.
15:18:38 <ehird> I'd also make the comment appear from the side, and pop out a line to it from the block, but that's just me.
15:18:52 <ehird> Like a pseudo-speechbubble, kinda.
15:19:25 <fizzie> Mm. Well, I may change it so that it puts the comment up there already without clicking, unless some other block is selected.
15:19:40 <ehird> That seems reasonable.
15:22:03 <fizzie> I should comment the rest of fungot too, but it's such a mess. Those green-block-style "this region of code does approximately what" parts are easy, though.
15:22:04 <fungot> fizzie: an anon made some pov edits to the article, and the ones that went up for trial. also there are gsp+, etc...) for our stuff, also try:
15:22:35 <ehird> fizzie: I'd also remove the pointer cursor, it kind of flickers a bit sometimes so you could just trash it.
15:24:23 <fizzie> Yes, with the hover-coloring it's maybe not necessary.
15:26:02 <ehird> I think I'll try diceware.
15:26:24 <ehird> You know what? Passwords are stupid. When can I get a brain implant?
15:47:15 <ehird> I wonder what's wrong with using /dev/random with diceware .
15:52:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, "firefox a script is being run for too long..."
15:52:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, also the clickable areas are too faint
15:52:54 <AnMaster> they are almost white on this monitor
15:54:04 <ehird> AnMaster: your browser is broken, then
15:54:12 <ehird> presumably it messes up opacity
15:54:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no this is not a state-of-the-art monitor
15:54:42 <ehird> Nowhere near white.
15:55:07 <AnMaster> ehird, on another monitor yes, I just checked, but not on this consumer TFT from 2003
15:55:52 <AnMaster> did that shrug mean you don't care about people that can't afford the most modern and high-end stuff?
15:56:01 <ehird> Don't be ridiculous.
15:56:10 <ehird> You're talking about a f*cking HTML page commenting brainfuck code.
15:56:13 <ehird> s/brainfuck/befunge/
15:56:39 <ehird> even if you can't see the background, the borders are easy to see.
15:57:11 <ehird> adjust contrast or something then
15:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't help in either direction
15:57:39 <ehird> Are you sure you're not looking at a piece of paper?
16:00:04 <fizzie> I'll add configurable opacity-sliders and color-select-o-trons later. :p
16:04:38 <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YxdlYFCp5Ic wow
16:04:40 <ehird> yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes wow.
16:04:48 <fizzie> Have to prepare some food now.
16:13:30 <ihope> Suddenly, I wonder how many "mean geometric figure, stupid geometric figure" webcomics there are.
16:13:54 <ihope> I know of three, if you consider a stick figure a geometric figure. (You don't.)
16:16:46 <fizzie> Yet another fungot babble-generation source experiment: 1200 transcriptions of Penny Arcade comics. (I'm not any huge fan, but since they were in a wiki...) The data-set is very very small, let's see how it works.
16:16:46 <fungot> fizzie: they just fnord the rest of my life.
16:17:10 <fizzie> fungot: Who's this "they"?
16:17:30 <fizzie> Oh, might be ignoring me.
16:17:34 <fungot> ehird: fnord fnord, fnord internet fraud division. i understand that we said you would have dsl last week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell asleep.
16:17:44 <ehird> fungot: You're not being very unique.
16:17:44 <fungot> ehird: on a scale of one to ten. you fnord' birds or people? we should probably fnord fnord.
16:18:15 <fizzie> So little material most unknown words are fnords. I could actually remove that vocabulary filtering for this.
16:18:49 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's a bit boring since it just quotes stuff, there's not enough material to interestingly combine things.
16:19:28 <ehird> fizzie: Feed it the #esoteric logs, grepped for only fungot lines.
16:19:28 <fungot> ehird: dots: the dots can be thought of as fnord owned fnord.
16:28:18 <AnMaster> that would probably be a too small dataset I guess
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16:39:55 <AnMaster> "The O_CLOEXEC flag is not specified in POSIX.1-2001, but is specified in POSIX.1-2001."
16:40:34 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell they meant "2008 draft" for the latter
16:41:56 * ehird writes a diceware program
16:43:33 <AnMaster> netcat6 got a bluetooth useflag now!? wtf
16:43:42 <ehird> [[I have an electronic dice throw generator. Should I use it?
16:43:42 <ehird> No! Unless you know how the electronics generate the randomness and can evaluate its strength, stick to old-fashioned real dice.]]
16:43:45 <AnMaster> well I don't have any bluetooth stuff on this computer *turns it off*
16:44:05 <ehird> AnMaster: /dev/random should be secure enough L:P
16:44:08 <AnMaster> but the dice shouldn't be weighted
16:44:09 <ehird> although apparently on os x it uses yarrow
16:44:24 <AnMaster> don't remember how secure that one is
16:44:29 <ehird> yarrow is pretty darn secure
16:44:36 <ehird> bruce schneier co-made it :P
16:44:42 <ehird> it is pseudorandom, however
16:44:49 <ehird> but it claims to be cryptographically secure
16:44:53 <ehird> and, well, bruce schneier is probably right.
16:45:36 <AnMaster> I'm too paranoid to trust even him
16:45:50 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you trust the dice makers
16:46:10 <ehird> how do you know your fingers don't have a computer chip in them
16:46:16 <ehird> logging every movement they make to the governmet
16:46:51 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know that?
16:47:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't. I said I trust *no one*
16:47:31 <ehird> AnMaster: then you should stop doing everything because you can't even begin to guess at any possible consequences
16:47:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes which is why you have to do a risk analysis
16:48:15 <AnMaster> there is no way I can know for certain
16:48:24 <AnMaster> though it may or may not be more or less likely
16:48:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd say for a risk analysis: Yarrow, designed by renowned cryptographer Bruce Schneier, and used by several things including every OS X system to generate the cryptographically secure /dev/random source...
16:48:51 <AnMaster> how can we even know that we aren't alone? Imagining whatever we see, hear and feel?
16:48:52 <ehird> I'd say that's pretty safe to trust.
16:49:04 <AnMaster> isn't there some philosophical name for that
16:49:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's bullshit.
16:49:24 <AnMaster> true. But is there actually any way to *prove*
16:49:32 <ehird> You can't "prove" anything.
16:49:34 <ehird> That has nothing to do with trust.
16:50:39 <oklocod> yeah there's no way to prove anything
16:50:48 <oklocod> and, most likely, nothing is true
16:51:39 * ehird gets ready to make a diceware password
16:51:49 <ihope> Suppose nothing is true. In this case, it is not true that nothing is true. This is a contradiction. Therefore, something is true.
16:52:22 <oklocod> ihope: and you think you can get me to believe there isn't an error in that proof?
16:52:26 <ehird> I think I will use the same method for remembering this password as I did my last one.
16:52:35 <ehird> Have a text to speech program read it out to me repeatedly for ages.
16:52:45 <ehird> Doing that, I memorized my current password within minutes.
16:52:53 <oklocod> ehird: how about making a memory peg and never forgetting it?
16:53:03 <oklocod> yeah guess that works just as well
16:53:04 <ehird> However: I _am_ going to store this in a 000-permissioned file, and also keep a piece of paper with it.
16:53:16 <ehird> Yes, someone can break into my house and get access to it, but, you know.
16:53:22 <ehird> It's something I really don't want to lose.
16:53:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you have any backups of your passwords anywhere?
16:53:35 <ihope> oklocod: yes, I think I can get you to believe there isn't an error in that proof.
16:53:41 <ehird> Think of the most important ones; how valuable are they? Could you risk losing them?
16:53:59 <oklocod> for one thing, i already know it's false, so you'll need some work to convince me
16:54:00 <ehird> it might be worth keeping a physical-paper printout of them somewhere secret.
16:54:06 <oklocod> you know, because everything is false
16:54:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean the master ones? Yes I got a safe
16:54:22 <AnMaster> revoke stuff for gpg keys and such
16:54:28 <ehird> I don't have a safe, but I don't expect my house to be broken in to any time until I can get one :P
16:54:34 <ihope> oklocod: if everything is false, you're lying to me and I should stop listening.
16:54:49 <oklocod> ihope: what's the use? you're lying to yourself anyway :)
16:55:06 <ihope> oklocod: only if you're right. :-)
16:55:19 * ehird grabs a silly toy dice.
16:55:51 <oklocod> what i'm saying is complete bullshit
16:56:43 <ihope> Glad that's settled, then.
16:56:56 <ehird> this is an awful lot of work for protecting a few forum accounts.
16:56:59 <ehird> Still, it's more convenient in the end.
16:57:01 <ehird> I just remember a few words.
16:58:11 * ehird gets plan: Put paper with passphrase in plain view and file with it in in plain view until completely memorized. Then, eliminate.
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16:59:08 <ihope> My passwords are all generated by a simple algorithm.
16:59:17 <ihope> Hopefully, nobody knows what that algorithm is.
16:59:31 <ihope> I kind of give hints every once in a while. I should stop doing that.
17:01:02 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while...").
17:04:20 <ehird> okay. roll here goes.
17:04:52 <ihope> Does that mean I can say "ROLL 6"?
17:04:55 <AnMaster> fun POSIX.1-2008 was finished one month ago, I guess too early to start using it though ;P
17:05:08 <AnMaster> and don't seem very useful for what I'm doing currently
17:05:13 <ehird> A six word passphrase sems reasonable.
17:05:18 <ehird> 77.5 bits of entropy.
17:05:34 <ehird> AnMaster: I do not need the same password in 2050.
17:05:37 <ehird> I will likely change password regularly.
17:05:42 <ehird> (You can change your GPG key password, right?)
17:06:08 <ehird> [[# Five words are only breakable by an organization with a large budget. ]] <- I do not think the government wants to spend a few months pooling tons of computers together to break my password.
17:06:10 <ehird> Just a hunch, though.
17:06:18 <ehird> They'd also, of course, have to know I'd used diceware.
17:06:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh they know now, *points to clog*
17:06:49 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sure they trawl through logs of this channel daily.
17:06:54 <ehird> So yes, five words, maaaaaaybe six.
17:07:54 <ehird> AnMaster: [[Of course, if you are worried about an organization that can break a seven word passphrase in order to read your e-mail, there are a number of other issues you should be concerned with -- such as how well you pay the team of armed guards that are protecting your computer 24 hours a day.]]
17:08:25 <AnMaster> ehird, hah yes, but computers are getting faster every year
17:08:37 <AnMaster> so in a few years small organizations may be able to do it
17:08:45 <SimonRC> how good are botnets at tackling such things?
17:09:04 <ehird> AnMaster: If I change my password once every year or two that should not be a problem.
17:09:07 <ehird> As I can increase the size then.
17:09:23 <ehird> Five words should do nicely.
17:09:50 <ehird> I have 3 tiny toy dice things made of wood, going to cycle between them.
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17:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, you should check if they give even distribution too
17:11:37 <ehird> They're not weighted or anything.
17:11:43 <ehird> Probably not evenly distributed, but since I'm using 3 separate ones that should not matter.
17:12:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not saying they are weighted, but they could be slightly dented, or have uneven density or be just badly made
17:12:46 <ehird> Yes, but since I'm cycling between 3 that should not affect the overall outcome.
17:13:03 <AnMaster> unless they have a bias in total
17:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, if you are paranoid enough to make a distributed dice thrower. you have to be paranoid enough for this
17:13:54 <ehird> I wasn't paranoid for that; it was just novelty.
17:14:12 <ehird> Still, _any_ five word passphrase is gonna be pretty much unbreakable for the purposes of my personal password.
17:14:36 <ehird> Grr. It'd help if I had a bigger surface than my computer desk >:P
17:14:49 <AnMaster> well my desk is big but that won't help...
17:15:01 <ehird> AnMaster please roll my dice for me ;P
17:15:17 <AnMaster> ok.... 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
17:15:18 <ehird> AnMaster: The carpet probably wouldn't work too well for that
17:15:36 <ehird> actually i need 25 rolls :P
17:15:37 * SimonRC makes the obligatory Dilbert and Xkcd references
17:16:13 <ehird> STOP FALLING ON TO MY KEYBOARD
17:17:15 <ehird> Well, they did. Now they go for the floor.
17:17:22 <ehird> i only have 5 rolls XD
17:17:34 <AnMaster> 3643214155546564222446366462253162632346435125441234213666516265355442131635412233312211613454326236616444516663352612634122155211423522143451633264164361464
17:18:03 <AnMaster> but I won't know what subset you select that way
17:18:22 <ehird> the dice keep hitting the cable.
17:18:40 <ehird> no, the cable goes in to the monitor, imac remember :-P
17:18:54 <AnMaster> I didn't know what sort of mac you had
17:19:50 <ehird> I keep thinking "Huh, this is producing the same numbers all the time" until I realise that there's only 6 possibilities XD
17:20:24 <SimonRC> he should roll a d256 instead
17:20:34 <AnMaster> SimonRC, that wouldn't be possible
17:20:38 <ehird> AnMaster: should be
17:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird, each side would be too small
17:20:52 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but it should be possible
17:20:54 <AnMaster> it would effectively be a ball
17:22:19 <AnMaster> ah that gives timing information
17:22:32 <ehird> yeah, it lets you know that i suck at rolling dice
17:24:19 * SimonRC offers ehird a big cube of 1000d6
17:24:33 <SimonRC> I has seen suck things on sale
17:24:48 <SimonRC> (or was it a cuboid of 100d6?)
17:24:59 <ehird> yay one word to go
17:25:30 <ihope> That depends on whether it was 10x10x10 or 4x5x5.
17:31:31 <fizzie> There are d100s generally available.
17:31:34 <fizzie> They look like a golf ball.
17:32:02 <fizzie> I would assume you *could* make a d256, which would just be something like a tennis-ball-sized golf ball.
17:32:35 <ehird> Yay, password chosen
17:32:57 -!- Corun has joined.
17:32:58 <ehird> Now to memorize it.
17:33:01 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Zocchihedron2.jpg has a picture.
17:33:04 <ehird> I like it, though. It's pretty: hunter2
17:35:48 <ehird> Haha, april fools idea: A password-generating algorithm that has many steps but guarantees a completely secure, completely memorable password
17:35:53 <ehird> if you follow the steps, you get hunter2 every time
17:39:53 <ehird> Great. Password chosen. Now to change my gpg key to use it.
17:40:41 <SimonRC> why can't gpg and ssh keys be the same?
17:41:09 <SimonRC> I thought the math behind them was the same anyway.
17:42:49 <ehird> SimonRC: That's exactly what I wanted.
17:42:53 <ehird> It is the same system, yes.
17:43:00 <ehird> I'm just going to use the same passphrase for both.
17:43:54 <ehird> [[Changing one's pass phrase often is desirable -- it isn't if you don't
17:43:54 <ehird> change your key at the same time]]
17:43:57 <ehird> I'll make a new key then.
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17:47:32 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you use it
17:47:39 <AnMaster> for login you wouldn't need to change key
17:47:43 <ehird> Well, it wasn't anywhere but here and rutian.
17:47:46 <ehird> But there, new key generated.
17:48:04 * ehird realises huge stupid flaw in his login system
17:48:08 <AnMaster> well my public ssh key(s) are in lots of places
17:48:10 <ehird> it lets anyone trusted by the gpg system on rutian log in as me
17:49:10 <AnMaster> hm it seems POSIX.1-2008 adds several previously GNU specific functions
17:49:29 <AnMaster> I mean in 2001 revision GNU was mostly ignored
17:49:46 <AnMaster> I guess Linux is more mainstream these days
17:51:57 <ehird> yay i've almost memorized my password without even trying ^_^
17:52:22 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Asztal, F#? Pronounced as F-blunt right?
17:52:54 <ehird> SimonRC: 77.5 bits of entropy, I believe.
17:52:58 <SimonRC> no, F# is pronounced "OCaML.NET"
17:53:05 <ehird> http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html
17:53:55 <ehird> also, OCaml is spelled OCaml
17:57:59 <oerjan> oklocod: based on psygnisfive's analysis
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18:03:31 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> your last name is an anagram of either sole or sola
18:03:50 <oerjan> sent my guess in private :D
18:04:47 <lament> guess my phone number instead :P
18:04:57 <oerjan> sure, but there was one that sprung nearly immediately to mind
18:05:26 <oerjan> (maybe he's told it before though. or maybe it's completely wrong.)
18:06:15 <psygnisfive> slVV seems unlikly, as does lsVV and VVsl and VVls
18:06:27 <oerjan> i'm not saying in public but a finnish name list made at least the first name very likely
18:06:53 <oerjan> and my guess has google hits, including facebook
18:07:19 <psygnisfive> i just forget if its written with an a or an e
18:08:01 <oerjan> the name list only had the e version
18:08:41 <oerjan> ok the other also exists
18:09:01 <ehird> policy: New gpg key & new ssh key & new password for both every jan 1st
18:09:03 <ehird> that seems reasonable
18:09:15 <psygnisfive> sola or salo or osla or aslo or also or olsa or...
18:12:10 * SimonRC wonders what this net obsession with hiding one's name is for
18:13:03 <oklocod> oerjan: yeah, you got it right
18:13:26 <oklocod> i *have* told it here, it's not exactly a secret
18:13:43 <oerjan> ok that may have been in my memory somewhere then
18:14:00 <oerjan> yeah i would keep it secret too if psygnisfive was stalking me ;D
18:14:08 <ehird> Okay, so I need to write a FOAF file thingy, then I have to write the firefox thingy that logs me in to sites from the gpg-encrypted random-pass file then elliott.hird.name has to be bought.
18:14:11 <ehird> Then I shall be happy.
18:14:12 * SimonRC recalls that Oklo is where the 2000000000-year-old nuclear reactor is
18:14:44 <psygnisfive> you mean that natural reactor somewhere in ghana?
18:14:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor
18:15:02 <oklocod> "sl" is a bit unfinnishy too
18:15:32 <psygnisfive> SimonRC: I AM A LINGUIST. DO NOT TREAD IN PLACES YOU DO NOT BELONG.
18:15:39 <oklocod> SimonRC: not that many here are hiding their name; and i'm not either, in general
18:15:54 <oerjan> oklocod: when psygnisfive listed those, i though "Olsa" sounded a bit finnish but the only hits were someone babbling in turkish
18:15:56 <oklocod> it's just i happened to tell the anagram, and i knew psygnisfive would die to know it
18:16:00 <lament> i'm hiding my name. it's too hideous for human eyes
18:16:06 <psygnisfive> ok so if sl is unfinnishy that rules out all the slVV, VslV, and VVsl versions. not like the last one wasnt unpredictably bad
18:16:10 <oklocod> olsa sounds a bit like swedish maybe
18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you awake?.
18:16:29 <oerjan> oklocod: sola would be norwegian
18:16:38 <oklocod> oerjan: sola is a finnish word
18:17:02 <oklocod> it means like a... very small canyon, fizzie or someone can translate, i don't feel like googling
18:17:27 <psygnisfive> ok so its not slVV, VslV, and VVsl, nor VVls, VlsV, nor lsVV, so those rule out all but
18:17:32 <oklocod> so psygnisfive: why can't the last name have an i?
18:18:29 <oklocod> you *know* my first name okay
18:18:44 <oklocod> that might explain why you haven't considered vola or something :P
18:18:54 <oklocod> yeah maybe you should stalk her instead?
18:19:13 <oklocod> hmm i wonder if that yogurt is still good for eating
18:19:38 <ehird> ->' is this a pictorial representation of your penis?
18:19:38 <psygnisfive> but your cock is the size of an apostrophe?
18:20:08 <psygnisfive> ehird: you're not as fast as me, when it comes to fawning over penises.
18:20:12 <lament> '. <- my cock, next to the Earth
18:21:00 <psygnisfive> lament: i find it hard to believe that you could've found enough food to grow a penis that large, especially given that human tissue is about 75% water, and that would have more water than is on and in the earth
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18:21:35 <lament> it was always like that
18:21:39 <SimonRC> watch is psygnisfive applies logic inappropriately
18:22:00 <SimonRC> poor lament; for he can have no sex life
18:22:04 <oklocod> 19:19:01 ehird: ->' is this a pictorial representation of your penis?
18:22:04 <oklocod> 19:19:02 psygnisfive: but your cock is the size of an apostrophe?
18:22:05 <oerjan> psygnisfive: hey hey don't be so negative. here we have the solution to all the world's water shortages
18:22:05 <psygnisfive> SimonRC, your sense of humor sucks. you should watch big bang theory.
18:22:24 <ehird> actually SimonRC's sense of humour is better than psygnisfive's
18:22:29 <lament> my sex life is limited, i only know one woman who's big enough
18:23:29 <oerjan> psygnisfive: indeed that _would_ be a big bang
18:23:40 <psygnisfive> no theres this tv show called big bang theory
18:24:03 <psygnisfive> vaguely similar to The IT Crowd, but not british
18:24:25 <psygnisfive> half the jokes should make absolutely no sense if you dont have a basic knowledge of the argument of grand unified theories
18:24:45 <ihope> My mom loves that show.
18:24:46 <oerjan> as long as you don't have to understand the math
18:24:47 <oklocod> oerjan: psygnisfive: indeed that _would_ be a big bang <<< oerjan: so, usually you part, now you're making sex jokes? i'm assuming you're oerjan's nephew or something
18:24:53 <lament> we should uh join our forces?
18:24:53 * ihope waits for someone to say "YOUR MOM loves that show"
18:25:11 <psygnisfive> one of the characters, sheldon, has this tendency to not realize jokes are jokes
18:25:17 <oerjan> i don't have siblings, so no nephews
18:25:20 <psygnisfive> and instead tries to explain the illogical facets of the set up
18:25:36 <oklocod> oerjan: prolly not, because you're about 9 years old
18:25:52 <oerjan> oklocod: well my dad thinks so sometimes
18:26:08 <psygnisfive> oklopol: he could be like that one british woman whos family had a generation size of like 13 years
18:26:57 <oerjan> just because i'm 38, doesn't mean i've actually grown up
18:28:21 <oerjan> oklocod: i don't mind sex jokes as long as they're not too graphic
18:28:45 <ehird> oerjan: quick make a pun on that
18:29:04 <oklocod> oerjan: yeah i see, i guess it's a generation thing, i don't see anything as "too graphic" really
18:29:05 <SimonRC> well, sometimes it is fun to apply logic in silly places...
18:30:01 <psygnisfive> oerjan: three guys walk into a sex club, the size queen goes to the fisting area and gets his ass stretched real wide, the ...
18:30:44 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: then makes a website about it?
18:30:50 <psygnisfive> i was just gonna end it with the masochist enjoying pain so much he denies himself the pleasure of receiving it
18:31:41 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: sorry I meant: "... then he makes a website about it"?
18:32:02 <SimonRC> i.e. the notorious goatse.cx
18:32:32 <SimonRC> I was trying to think how to continue the story, that is all :-)
18:33:45 <oerjan> so what is the rule that says, if it exists then there are jokes about it?
18:34:23 <SimonRC> related to rule 34 I suppose
18:34:57 <oerjan> i know that one already
18:37:14 <psygnisfive> and capitalization is wholly unnecessary; i agree with bauhaus on this matter
18:37:21 <oerjan> SimonRC: from the "youre" my guess is psygnisfive simply doesn't use the apostrophe key
18:37:36 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes, but english is ugly in just about every aspect
18:37:41 <SimonRC> oerjan: yes. I was gently ridiculing her.
18:37:43 <ehird> you might as well invent your own language and talk to us in it here
18:37:48 <psygnisfive> oerjan: actually youll notice that i havent used it since he said APOSTROPHE a second time :)
18:38:03 <psygnisfive> ehird: english is quite pretty, dont be a horrible person. :|
18:38:05 <ehird> psygnisfive: if you want to talk to us in english, talk to us in _english_
18:38:36 <ehird> and then we'd all ignore you, probably.
18:39:22 <oerjan> 18:22 psygnisfive> oklopol: you're closer to him then.
18:39:28 <oerjan> that's the last i could find
18:39:36 <oerjan> long before the second APOSTROPHE
18:40:15 <psygnisfive> i instinctually did go to type the apostrophe in you're and such but intentionally suppressed it
18:40:39 <ehird> yeah, you show him.
18:41:05 <SimonRC> psygnisfive is taking that more seriously than I expected
18:41:30 <psygnisfive> simonrc: thats what you get for trying to be humorous :D
18:41:42 <oerjan> SimonRC: psygnisfive takes _everything_ more seriously than one expects :D
18:41:50 <psygnisfive> wiiyzyweenywaajö' #wïïjod zyweenywaybaï̇ #mwejaysïwaẏh
18:42:22 <oerjan> that's some long vowels
18:42:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: does that actually mean anything
18:42:57 <psygnisfive> its a transliteration of a sentence im basing the sound of the language on.
18:43:15 <psygnisfive> a quote from farscape. it means something like "we just wanted to get a closer look, but the wormhole pulled us in"
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18:43:48 <oklocod> 19:38… ehird: and then we'd all ignore you, probably.
18:44:11 <oklocod> the only reason i haven't learned lojban yet is no one i know knows it
18:44:34 <ehird> psygnisfive: make a reocrding
18:44:34 <psygnisfive> initially people think it sounds like backwards english but it actually doesnt
18:44:50 <oklocod> a few have said they will, but people simply don't have the stamina for something that useless
18:45:45 <oklocod> oh, i think the sound is one of its best parts
18:45:47 <psygnisfive> i hate the way spanish sounds and i can still explain an ipod warranty and return policy
18:45:49 <ehird> um lojban sounds awesome
18:45:54 <ehird> spanish sounds awful
18:46:12 <ehird> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710885982433758647 <-- stupid little cartoon thing that is only redeemed by AWESOME LOJBAN SOUND
18:46:21 <ehird> it makes anything good
18:46:31 <ehird> they should call lojban awesomeban.
18:46:52 <psygnisfive> ehird: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/Farscape_linguistics/Sebacean-[0-6].wav
18:47:01 <psygnisfive> where [0-6] is a proper range, not part of the file name
18:48:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: fix the links
18:48:24 <psygnisfive> it sounds nothing like their official descriptions of the way the language sounds
18:49:16 * SimonRC goes to listen to Dr Who on BBC 7.
18:49:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: how do you make that click "hck" sound >_<
18:50:26 <psygnisfive> i can tell you how to start, and then guide you through getting closer to the correct way of doing it
18:50:55 <psygnisfive> guess you wont be learning sebacean then, HUH
18:51:19 <oklocod> is it an existing consonant or one of your own?
18:53:18 <psygnisfive> ESPECIALLY for sexual purposes. i mean, honestly, who would fuck a retriever? weirdos.
18:53:22 <oklocod> this one is lying right next to me, farting, and silently judging me as i'm making funny consonants up.
18:53:34 <oklocod> well yeah, that's a good point
18:54:07 <oerjan> happiness is a warm puppy
18:55:15 <psygnisfive> if you're into abusing beastiality i can give you a delightfully cruel fantasy :o
18:55:31 <oklocod> you and your silly anecdotes
18:56:04 <psygnisfive> also: http://community.livejournal.com/ftmvanity/876303.html#cutid1 <3
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18:57:43 <oklocod> is the point that he's cute, was did that have to do with bestiality?
18:58:12 <oklocod> yeah the comments somewhat gave that away
18:59:05 <oklocod> lol, if i think he's a girl, he indeed does looks somewhat cute
19:00:16 <oklocod> and the lower part of the face
19:00:17 <psygnisfive> nah. ive seen lots of guys that look similar
19:04:16 <oklocod> "you know what's so wrong about gayness? if there's two guys, who has the vagina?" "yeah, you gotta have a vagina" "vaginas are great, wish i had one"
19:04:21 <oklocod> (another american dad quote)
19:05:05 <psygnisfive> primarily because a stereotype (not untrue) about straight guys is that they always wanna fuck a chick in the ass
19:05:20 <psygnisfive> so that comment sounds more like an intentional homophobic joke than anything else
19:05:41 <ehird> oh noes the joke is homophobic
19:05:54 <psygnisfive> its one thing if its monty python homophobic
19:06:13 <ehird> ah. so only famous comedians can be homophobia
19:06:29 <psygnisfive> just like only good comedians can be racist
19:06:39 <oklocod> the joke is the first guys say vaginas are great for banging, last guy joins in, and says (without stealing focus), that he's like to *have* a vagina
19:06:45 <oklocod> at least that's what i laughed at.
19:07:12 <psygnisfive> straight american guys want to be hot chicks.
19:07:23 <psygnisfive> its a fairly well established but rarely spoken about fact.
19:08:02 <oklocod> well anyway, who said that was even a joke
19:08:13 <oklocod> i don't watch ad for it's humor value
19:08:13 <psygnisfive> straight american men are so afraid of being perceived as homosexual that they actual want to BE women. they only like having cocks because cocks are used to fuck women.
19:09:29 <oklocod> and while what you say may be true (and afaik all things are true), i don't think that makes the joke bad.
19:09:45 <oklocod> i like all jokes that aren't based on a punchline or a pun
19:10:00 <oklocod> and i like some jokes based on misunderstandings
19:10:21 <psygnisfive> see, i didnt even see the misunderstanding
19:10:31 <psygnisfive> im not even sure if there was one. i suppose it depends on what followed
19:10:36 <oklocod> i don't consider that a misunderstanding
19:12:49 <oklocod> the joke is, liking vaginas is something that, in the pseudoworld where i live and where that joke works, is a manly thing; if you like a vagina, you're manly; once it goes over a certain point, you become the opposite of manly, because you suddenly want to be a woman
19:13:12 <oklocod> at least that's how i see it, what do i know.
19:13:23 <psygnisfive> that pseudoworld is called american straight mandom.
19:13:34 <psygnisfive> hence why i didnt see the joke, what with the show being about precisely that
19:13:41 <oklocod> yeah, i believe that's what ad is all about.
19:14:25 <oerjan> "I wish I was a girly, just like my dear Pa-Pa!"
19:14:46 <psygnisfive> but the irony is that straight men in america often want to fuck chicks in the ass. sometimes more than in the pussy.
19:14:59 <oklocod> psygnisfive: that's irrelevant
19:15:25 <oklocod> if there's a world in which the joke is funny, and a world i can picture in my head, the joke is inherently funny.
19:15:35 <psygnisfive> if straight men prefer ass, then its very relevant indeed!
19:15:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: Do you think you could talk about something other than sex just once in #esoteric?
19:16:05 <oklocod> this was partly my fault too
19:16:07 <psygnisfive> ehird: i'd love to, but noone seems to be interested in actually esoteric programming concepts. all i see is rehashing old ideas.
19:16:25 <oklocod> psygnisfive: so have i talked to you about noprob?
19:16:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: Well, how would you know? You never try.
19:17:06 <psygnisfive> ehird: i do! but then i stopped because you were all like "blah blah blah talking about brainfuck is edgy and esoteric grr"
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19:17:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: no we weren't, but besides, what is wrong with brainfuck?
19:17:42 <oerjan> It's _so_ last century :D
19:17:42 <oklocod> the rehashing of old ideas is that most genuinely mathematically interesting stuff is rare in all fields where amateurs make the content
19:17:43 <psygnisfive> nothings wrong with brainfuck, its just like talking about latin and then claiming you're esoteric
19:17:54 <ehird> except latin used to be used seriously.
19:18:11 <oklocod> *because somewhere in there
19:18:15 <ehird> oerjan: last century? :-D
19:18:17 <oerjan> Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur
19:18:19 <ehird> ye olde brainfucke
19:18:46 <psygnisfive> contrary to popular believe, "ye" in such constructions is not said with a y sound
19:19:13 <ehird> "ye olde brainfucke" is not exactly circa-1900 english.
19:19:34 <oklocod> psygnisfive: do you know 3-sat
19:20:14 <oklocod> well it's just about having your boolean expressions in CNF in clauses of size 3
19:20:47 <oklocod> for instance (A | b | C) ^ (B | c | d)
19:20:57 <oklocod> but you could have more of those toplevel (* | * | *)'s
19:21:10 <oklocod> A-Z are just boolean variables
19:21:14 <psygnisfive> oklopol, i want to formulate a lambda-like model of functions.
19:21:17 <oklocod> a-z are just their negations
19:21:36 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:21:41 <ehird> oklocod: he's ignoring your idea
19:21:43 <ehird> and talking about his own.
19:22:14 <oerjan> is something wrong with fungot?
19:22:14 <fungot> oerjan: i've only worn this shirt for three years, man! you have a whip? why do you know what? those were all from me.
19:22:27 <oklocod> did you mean "a lambda-like model of functions thats not about lambdas"?
19:22:36 <oklocod> why would my 3-sat language be about lambdas
19:22:37 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:22:43 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2
19:23:14 <oklocod> that was a bit confusing, sorry
19:23:18 <fungot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ...
19:23:21 <oklocod> i always forget people can't see what i think
19:23:44 <oerjan> fizzie: the ^bf command isn't working alone anymore
19:23:52 <oklocod> psygnisfive: clauses are of size 3
19:24:04 <oklocod> because that's the definition of 3-sat
19:24:25 <oklocod> well, 3-sat is an np-complete problem where you try to find the values for these vars so that the overall result is true
19:24:35 <oklocod> you can convert all boolean circuits to this form
19:24:54 <oklocod> it's just for tarpitty notation's sake that the actual language is in 3-sat form
19:25:01 <oklocod> so you don't have to use any whitespace
19:25:21 <oklocod> i augmented 3-sat with probabilities
19:25:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:26:00 <oklocod> you have these special variabels that are true with a 50% probability
19:26:15 <oklocod> you can use them to create any probability you like on a variable
19:26:23 <psygnisfive> well you could use lukasiewicz notation for all your functions and get rid of white space
19:26:25 <oklocod> (this is the only way to represent numbers)
19:26:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: there aren't any functions.
19:26:46 <ehird> psygnisfive: um, I think perhaps you're missing out on all the good esolang ideas because you don't understand any of them
19:26:55 <oklocod> there are problotures for expressing infinite expressions tail-recursively
19:27:10 <psygnisfive> lukasiewicz notation is harder to comprehend, ehird.
19:27:26 <oklocod> psygnisfive: i doubt lukasiewicz notation can beat just *skipping all marking for functions altogether*
19:27:52 <oklocod> if it can, then okay, lukasiewicz beat me.
19:27:59 <oklocod> psygnisfive: the |'a and ^'s
19:28:07 <oklocod> you just said those are the functions
19:28:10 <oklocod> and i said there are no functions
19:28:16 <oklocod> of course i mean what you meant
19:28:17 <psygnisfive> yes, i didnt know what you meant by markings.
19:28:30 <psygnisfive> it doesnt skip those but it DOES skip the parens. :)
19:28:39 <oklocod> err yeah i don't need those either
19:29:10 <fizzie> Oh? I must've screwed it up when doing the ^ul command.
19:29:21 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:29:36 <oklocod> psygnisfive: that'd be abcdef in my notation
19:29:41 <oklocod> i was just explaining what 3-sat is
19:29:46 <oklocod> i haven't talked about my notation
19:29:46 <oerjan> fizzie: also i'm not sure whether that ^ul is the builtin or the bf version
19:29:56 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
19:30:00 <psygnisfive> adjacency is both disjunction and conjunction?
19:30:02 <fizzie> That's the builtin, actually.
19:30:07 <oerjan> ehird: that proves nothing
19:30:11 <fizzie> It just shows the old bf version.
19:30:14 <oklocod> every third is a disjunction to be exact
19:30:28 <fizzie> ^ul (fooo bar baz quux):*:*S
19:30:28 <fungot> fooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quux
19:30:31 <oklocod> conj conj disj conj conj dis
19:30:34 <fizzie> You can tell from the speed.
19:30:58 <fizzie> But the 'bf' command won't work because the 'ul' command is in the way. Heh.
19:31:18 <psygnisfive> but then it CANT be abcdef in your notation
19:31:24 <oklocod> but i don't see why you'd care for the syntax, *that* the esolang communite definitely has enough creative ideas for
19:31:50 <oklocod> psygnisfive: yeah also you have to put the parens there
19:32:23 <psygnisfive> the point is that the former is not the same as the latter
19:32:37 <psygnisfive> and if every third adjacency is disjunction
19:32:40 <fungot> test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test t
19:32:51 <oklocod> psygnisfive: that's just because i'm confusing conjunction and disjunction
19:33:07 <psygnisfive> and disunction has higher scope than conjunction i take it
19:33:10 <oklocod> i pair things up in my head, sometimes i happen to pair two very related things
19:33:46 <fizzie> Hmm, output length limits are still missing from the built-in ul interp.
19:33:50 <psygnisfive> everything is by threes, alternatingly up the hierarchy
19:34:01 <psygnisfive> so that all disjunctions are in conjunctions, and vice versa, if they're in anything at all
19:34:36 <oklocod> that's just 3-sat, and a trivial way to express it concisely
19:34:54 <oklocod> that's not the interesting part :P
19:35:15 <psygnisfive> lukasiewicz notation is sort of like combinatory notation but it has no parens at all since it doesnt let you combine operators
19:35:29 <psygnisfive> oklopol, im a syntactician, i like novel syntax.
19:35:53 <oklocod> isn't the whole esolang wiki full of syntax ideas?
19:36:07 <oklocod> i thought the issue is most are based on the same few concepts
19:36:27 <psygnisfive> C = implication, A = or, K = and, E = biconditional, N = negation
19:37:00 <psygnisfive> ok so lukes notation is, everything is binary except N
19:37:19 <psygnisfive> but it ends up being completely incomprehensible
19:38:52 <psygnisfive> where adjaceny is and, and where and has higher precedence than or
19:39:59 <oklocod> (i've invented it once too)
19:40:37 <oklocod> (it was for this language, long before i knew about esolangs or polish notation, a language for this router game i was planning, basically you'd program the protocols for sending packets around a large network)
19:40:37 <psygnisfive> i like it. its nice and algebraically usable, but requires that you sit down and think about it
19:40:56 <psygnisfive> ok, youll need to tell me more about 3sat later. im off to shower then get food. <3
19:41:04 <oklocod> 3-sat is a trivial concept :P
19:41:23 <oklocod> has nothing to do with me, just inspired me
19:41:29 <psygnisfive> and instead require everything be in sheffer stroke
19:41:40 <oklocod> psygnisfive: ^ and | have nothing to do with noprob
19:41:58 <psygnisfive> sheffer-stroke-only would make it ridiculously verbose
19:42:02 <oklocod> i don't modify it, i've extended it
19:42:08 <oklocod> i guess that's modification
19:42:13 <oklocod> but the dog is farting again
19:44:18 <oklocod> i'm thinking of adding a second construct to noprob :<
19:44:34 <oklocod> branch-less-than, basically
19:45:42 <oklocod> because after the "reversible multiplication" idea died of stupidity, i haven't had a way to actually do any visible computation in a pure way
19:46:09 <oklocod> i will basically either have to add that, or a branch-if-less-than-50%.....
19:47:16 <oklocod> anyway, this would allow for using the probabilities for something other than purely storing integers n as (1/2^n) probabilities
19:47:24 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:48:08 <oklocod> well, no because, it follows trivially, that once you have a way to compare things, and do calculations with them, you have numbers
19:49:08 <oklocod> ...and that was the because
19:50:44 <oklocod> hmm.... the language doesn't really have an ordering, on any level in the parse tree, that is, on any sequence of expressions, you can always shuffle the code in any way you like
19:52:15 <oklocod> i think i'll read a bit, i'm just getting a coding spark, and i can't code because i have to read, and i go back to irc
19:57:04 <fizzie> Actually the current data-set, even though it's so tiny, works surprisingly well: http://zem.fi/~fis/botconv.txt
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19:58:46 <fungot> ehird: no! in fact, that is precisely what you may not say! and brian and i are going to fnord. what was hidden within? unstoppable fnord! fnord.
19:58:59 <ehird> oh i thought you meant
19:59:21 <fizzie> No, it's still the penny-arcade thing. I can try the fungot loop too, though.
19:59:21 <fungot> fizzie: why did that samurai fnord his own life for the life of the international playboy. mark each mommy with a flag or whatever they use over there.
20:00:26 <fungot> psygnisfive: to: fnord fnord. eleven year-olds can't go. doom 3 comes out tomorrow. you'll just plug it in! where you going, tough guy? don't think i want it! no, the full version would destroy you. trust me, buddy?
20:00:42 <ehird> fizzie: feed it rap lyrics
20:00:49 <psygnisfive> this is what #esoteric has done to me. its made me expect randomness from IRC
20:00:50 <ehird> yo niggas fnord fnord fnord
20:02:06 <fizzie> If you have a big pile of rap lyrics, sure. I had to crawl those Penny Arcade transcripts from pennyarcade.wikia.com, too; people are very bad in making interesting text data available in some simple way.
20:02:53 <ehird> fizzie: http://lyricwiki.org/Main_Page
20:02:59 -!- Linus` has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi.").
20:03:03 <ehird> http://lyricwiki.org/Category:Genre/Rap
20:03:15 <ehird> only 125 categorized
20:03:22 <ehird> http://lyricwiki.org/Category:Genre/Computer_Science_Gangsta_Rap
20:04:23 <fizzie> "System.print(), goddamn I'm fly. (Don't forget the semicolons too)"
20:04:38 <fizzie> I guess fungot might make a good rapper.
20:04:38 <fungot> fizzie: welcome to fnord, bitch. you just don't want to talk about sandwiches? i can't do this anymore. jesus, look at these brain numbers. they're off the fnord and hope prey falls into its mouth. exhibit a is a fnord.
20:05:01 <ehird> http://lyricwiki.org/Monzy:So_Much_Drama_In_The_PhD i love thius
20:05:03 <fizzie> Yes, he's got a suitably dirty mouth, too.
20:05:10 <SimonRC> # You are likely / to be eatenbyagrue / If this predicament / seems particularly cruel / ... #
20:06:41 * SimonRC can't recall that guy's name
20:06:44 <fizzie> Meh, that lyricwiki would be nicely crawlable (since all the interesting data seems to have <lyric> tags around it) if they'd just have a list of songs instead of listing artists and then making arbitrary links to songs.
20:06:50 <ehird> fizzie: they have an api.
20:09:32 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:09:57 <fizzie> Oh, that should be pretty easy; I just need to give it a list of artists and then I can fetch all those songs.
20:10:18 -!- Corun_ has joined.
20:13:28 <oklocod> 21:04… fizzie: I guess fungot might make a good rapper.
20:13:28 <oklocod> 21:04… fungot: fizzie: welcome to fnord, bitch.
20:13:29 <fungot> oklocod: christmas 2003. i'm up. i'm seeing some shit.
20:13:29 <fungot> oklocod: yeah, i've got something planned for next month that'll really frost your... oh, that's right he had two fnord and two fnord
20:16:18 <fizzie> I'll look at the lyrics thing later, not today; but it might still be a nice experience. Now if fungot could just compose some music too, to go with the lyrics...
20:16:18 <fungot> fizzie: okay. is it for you?
20:16:30 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, you can? No, it'd be for the whole channel!
20:16:30 <fungot> fizzie: gurgle... fnord! fnord... that's... that's not mine! fnord?
20:17:08 <oerjan> i've heard worse lyrics
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20:22:47 -!- Corun__ has joined.
20:28:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
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20:36:53 <AnMaster> fungot, what language model are you on?
20:36:53 <fungot> AnMaster: so, it's your job to decide who gets what!
20:37:01 <fungot> AnMaster: pure hell, fnord by yourself and an army of robots whose behavior you control. is that downtown? i was hoping i could get your aim or something, we could...
20:37:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the language model?
20:37:37 <fizzie> Penny Arcade comic strips.
20:37:50 <AnMaster> isn't it kind of strange iirc?
20:38:10 <AnMaster> hey didn't xkcd make a parody on it once?
20:38:23 <fizzie> Just about anyone has, I guess.
20:38:28 <fizzie> xkcd might've done it too.
20:38:59 <fizzie> Oh, yes, it was that which went a bit fanficcy.
20:39:34 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction
20:40:16 <fizzie> Anyway, Penny Arcade strip transcriptions were in pennyarcade.wikia.com, so I just crawled them and ran. Well, not literally.
20:40:52 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about this particular data set?
20:40:52 <fungot> fizzie: i know his very heart. the one thing his dark soul fnord for. but fnord it would damn us both. you will fnord to death.
20:41:16 <fizzie> 1200 comic strips is not very much material, so there's quite a lot of occurs-only-once words, therefore it's so fnordy.
20:42:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm wonder if uf is transcribed
20:42:41 <AnMaster> sadly that would be totally impossible even over a small subset
20:43:25 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel any better now that you don't have the token filtering enabled?
20:43:25 <fungot> fizzie: alright... " gabe." oh. hmmm. it says here nihilistic is doing the coding and artwork. i'd make stuff up to.
20:43:57 <fizzie> It also quotes quite a lot verbatim, because of the small amount of material. Still, it is amusing every now and then.
20:44:07 <fizzie> fungot: Try saying something more original, please.
20:44:07 <fungot> fizzie: didn't you try the uninstaller? but daily radar said it sucked! i'm going to introduce myself, and then you'd be all " pow!" and he said, you've got to remember that he does whatever a spider can. he can spin a web and that web can be any size. criminals are also no problem, as he catches them just like flies.
20:44:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think this is worse than the EU one
20:44:27 <fizzie> A matter of taste, I think.
20:44:47 <fizzie> Did you check that conversation -- http://zem.fi/~fis/botconv.txt -- I had with it? Very coherent.
20:44:51 <AnMaster> if that was a verbatim quote it makes no sense
20:44:55 <Asztal> I tried pride and prejudice... it was quite odd
20:45:44 <Asztal> hmm, I have red dwarf 1 to 4 if you want it
20:46:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is this one too http://xkcd.com/50/
20:46:55 <fizzie> Yes, PA's so popular it's been referenced by quite a lot of other webcomics.
20:47:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't understand why it is popular
20:47:37 <fizzie> I don't see why not; and the topic material is a popular one.
20:47:41 <AnMaster> I mean xkcd, uf, irregular and darth and droids sure, possibly also ctrl-alt-del (don't like it personally)
20:47:42 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of them gamers around.
20:48:21 <AnMaster> I guess the ones I read show I'm no traditional gamer (uf, xkcd, irregular webcomic, darth and droids)
20:48:31 <fizzie> Actually quite many people would say the same about UF, and even though I still read it out of habit, I don't think I've been very amused by it in a long time.
20:48:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, I found today's one quite fun
20:50:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what ones do you read?
20:50:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uh, quite a pile. Around 40 or so.
20:50:47 <ehird> UF is really boring
20:50:49 <ehird> it's like 3 jokes.
20:50:55 <ehird> and half-baked storylines.
20:51:21 <ehird> I'm quite a fan of http://buttersafe.com/.
20:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't say it is that bad
20:51:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Also a very wide variety. I'm not going to start naming names; most of them would probably be too embarrassing to admit reading of.
20:52:22 <ehird> fizzie: My Little Pony: Comic edition.
20:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, explosm or whatever that horrible one is called could also be in that collection that is "too embarrassing"
20:52:58 <ehird> Cyanide & Happiness is occasionally funny.
20:53:13 <ehird> The fans are generally really annoying though
20:53:21 <AnMaster> well I don't click links to it any longer because it is crap 99% of the time
20:54:07 <ehird> AnMaster: What's wrong with "offensive" humour?
20:54:28 <ehird> Admittedly, most of the time C&H's humour is merely bland and not actually funny.
20:54:49 <AnMaster> I find irregular webcomic to be very high quality usually. Plus the annotations can be quite educating.
20:55:22 <ehird> iwc goes over my head a lot :(
20:55:30 <ehird> perhaps i just don't read enough backstory
20:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, never read the whole archive?
20:55:41 <fizzie> If I had to pick few, I rather liked Ozy and Millie (although that one's ending real soon, and it's so... "normal"); PhD Comics (since I might end up as a grad student later); unspeakable vault (of doom) (even though it's not very pretty, and not very fun if you haven't read Lovecraft at all)...
20:55:47 <fizzie> Oh, and Partially Clips, of course.
20:55:47 <ehird> AnMaster: That would take a while.
20:55:51 * AnMaster has for all the comics he read, including uf
20:56:22 <AnMaster> thought that was back when there was only like 5 years for uf, not like 10 years or whatever it is now.
20:57:16 <fizzie> I read through the UF archives in.. let's see, 2001? It was something like four years then.
20:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, also I managed iwc archive in about 3 days in total, this summer
20:57:55 <fizzie> Partially Clips uses a single clip-art picture for all three frames, and still manages to be funny.
20:58:37 <fizzie> On the other hand, Dinosaur Comics uses the *same* image every day, and still is sometimes funny too.
20:58:52 <ehird> I love dinosaur comics
20:59:40 <ehird> Yes, I'm sure we've all seen the xkcd parodies.
21:00:07 * AnMaster don't find dinosaur comics funny really
21:00:26 <ehird> (How many years have I been pointing out the 3 basic mistakes you make repeatedly? :p)
21:01:19 <AnMaster> ehird, no I didn't claim it made sense
21:01:41 <oklocod> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:01:42 <ehird> also, xkcd isn't very funny recently.
21:02:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I like the last one quite
21:02:55 <ehird> I mean, really. It isn't.
21:03:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't explain humor
21:03:22 <ehird> You can if you're trying to explain why something is funny.
21:03:31 <ehird> Sure, it ruins it, but if it wasn't ever funny in the first place...
21:03:49 <AnMaster> http://xkcd.com/489/ <-- what about that one?
21:03:51 <Asztal> http://www.insaneabode.com/roboterotica/jokesexplained/manwalksintoabar.html <- or does it?
21:04:34 <AnMaster> Asztal, see http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained.php however for why that particular one may be an exception
21:05:00 <AnMaster> since it uses the same tactic on the jokes explained as jokes explained uses on jokes
21:05:12 <ehird> AnMaster: explanations have to be sufficiently formal to be funny
21:05:16 <ehird> yours fails that criteria
21:05:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't try to make one
21:06:03 <ehird> <AnMaster> since it uses the same tactic on the jokes explained as jokes explained uses on jokes
21:06:14 <ehird> If that wasn't intended to be a joke in the same vein then you merely have a bad grasp of humour
21:06:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that was an example of "how not to do"
21:06:31 <ehird> AnMaster: no, THAT line is an example of "covering your ass"
21:07:11 <AnMaster> ehird, but really I didn't plan to try to make an extra level joke
21:07:39 <AnMaster> I could do it, just would take a bit. And I would have had to had that as a goal
21:08:43 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:08:59 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-564-10-24 <-- hehe btw
21:09:47 -!- jix has joined.
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21:21:27 <ehird> AnMaster: they just randomly generate those don't they.
21:22:33 <AnMaster> ehird, same every time you access a date
21:22:47 <AnMaster> I read it was some "fractal algorithm" somewhere
21:22:59 <ehird> hash(date), probably
21:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well also they seem to often reuse what the other person said
21:24:26 <AnMaster> so I guess some deterministic algorithm of some sort that uses hash(date) as seed. but not totally random, taking whatever has been said in the previous dialog box in consideration
21:24:57 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/ haha, the current is great
21:25:30 <ehird> AnMaster: but that's an awesome mission statement!
21:25:55 <AnMaster> "The webcomic that will revolutionise your web experience." "The webcomic that could use more publicity."
21:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so what one did you mean
21:26:18 <fizzie> I think e's referring to the "Citole: a kind of fiddle" mission statement.
21:26:22 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2008-10-26
21:26:37 <AnMaster> well Citole? I got no clue what that is
21:26:54 <fizzie> There's a definition right in there.
21:27:04 <ehird> Used like "ribibe", as a jealous lover his mistress.
21:27:34 <AnMaster> ehird, showing again humor is subjective
21:29:31 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:30:01 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/4Uiqwe81.html <-- that may interest you
21:34:00 <SimonRC> the comic for 22 Sept 654354701 BC is actually mildly amusing: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=654354701&epoch=bc&month=09&day=22
21:34:32 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1433-04-13
21:35:41 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it was from "hall of fame"
21:36:03 <AnMaster> all in http://www.mezzacotta.net/halloffame.php make sense or are funny, or at least a lot of ppl think so
21:36:11 <SimonRC> I wonder if they bias the randomiser to ones that haven't been rated much yet
21:36:25 <fizzie> And everything in there makes more sense than fungot. :p
21:36:25 <fungot> fizzie: why, blizzard? soulless dragon demands to knooooow! everything in the store that day, in that line, that i have gone totally batshit fucking loco.
21:36:28 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/bestbakes.php
21:37:05 <fizzie> I don't have time for the lyrics-testing right now.
21:37:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, irc or wikipedia are the best ones so far
21:37:53 <AnMaster> SimonRC, http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-5679392-11-17
21:38:41 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1&epoch=ad&month=01&day=01
21:43:43 <fizzie> Well, it's not surprising that IRC works best for IRC; and personally I don't like the Wikipedia one much, although it is mildly amusing the way it keeps on talking about fair use policy and other Wikipedianisms.
21:46:14 <ehird> SimonRC: language model for fungot
21:46:14 <fungot> ehird: i can't let these guys know how much i...
21:46:22 <ehird> fizzie: feed in agora mailing list archives
21:46:37 <ehird> fizzie: it'll start using spivak pronouns and ending human titles with or instead of er
21:46:39 <fizzie> SimonRC: I used the raw wiki-markup from 1/256th of all Wikipedia talk pages, with no filtering whatsoever.
21:46:48 <ehird> and use Gratuitously Capitalialized Words
21:47:07 <oklocod> fizzie: have you considered simply taking a few random words from what the fungot-highlighter said, and making it search for something containing as many of those as possible?
21:47:08 <fungot> oklocod: i love kingdom hearts. please use it.
21:47:34 <oklocod> except if it's in befunge, then i guess that may be a bit slow
21:48:10 <fizzie> oklocod: Yes, that is sort of an issue. The "use the original input as the context at the beginning" would be easier, but even that needs conversion from text into tokens.
21:48:56 <fizzie> ehird: The archives are only available to mailing list members, I think.
21:49:14 <fizzie> Although there's those other sites; proposals and such.
21:50:13 <ehird> fizzie: I can give you them.
21:50:17 <ehird> (Being a member, of course.)
21:50:59 <fizzie> Okay, fungot's now running on a model built from the current_flr.txt ruleset.
21:51:00 <fungot> fizzie: the vote collector is the assessor. the default officeholder can become a party to the
21:51:39 <fizzie> Line-wrapping makes the "sensible places to stop text generation" part a bit wonky; should've rewrapped them a bit.
21:52:01 <fungot> ehird: first-class player as eir mentor ( and has not named a
21:52:23 <ehird> fizzie: Bayes (mine and comex's (the rulekeepor) automated player) does basically the same thing
21:52:31 <ehird> it has a markov chain of previous proposals and makes proposals based on them
21:52:34 <ehird> but we don't use it as people got annoyed
21:52:56 <comex> good luck making a proposal that actually makes sense
21:53:43 <fungot> comex: the parties to the contract. otherwise, the outcome is failed quorum, regardless of spectral proximity. each color of ribbon is a currency.
21:53:54 <fizzie> I rewrapped that text, so fungot should now not stop in the middle like that.
21:53:55 <fungot> fizzie: 16 january 2008 amended(49) by proposal 5122 ( zefram), 7 june 2008 amended(1) by proposal 5090 ( zefram), 1 march 2008
21:54:07 <SimonRC> does fungot listen to what you say to it?
21:54:08 <fizzie> There's that not-rule-text stuff, though.
21:54:08 <fungot> SimonRC: history: created by proposal 2783 ( chuck), jan. 20 2000 amended(2) by proposal 5408 ( root),
21:54:13 <fizzie> SimonRC: No, not at all.
21:54:18 <fungot> comex: the ambassador is a low-priority office, responsible for managing judicial activity. the cotc's report includes the greatest orderly id number, then its name
21:54:31 <SimonRC> it could otherwise sometimes respond relevantly
21:54:31 <ehird> fizzie: give it the slr
21:54:33 <comex> it would actually do something
21:54:38 <ehird> comex: it's verbatim.
21:54:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh this one is quite like a slightly sillier version of the EU-parliament one
21:54:58 <comex> ehird: what is fungot exactly?
21:54:58 <fungot> comex: in a timely fashion" and " as soon as possible as the conditions authorizing em to make the award as soon as possible after receiving a cantus cygneus, detailing eir grievances and expressing eir reproach for those who e feels have treated em so badly.
21:55:05 <ehird> comex: irc bot written in befunge
21:55:12 <ehird> fizzie: link him to the code?
21:55:29 <AnMaster> comex, it got a talk generator too
21:55:42 <fizzie> comex: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html if your browser is compatible with my messy javascript.
21:55:42 <fungot> fizzie: rule 2153/ 1 ( power=1) scams to fix scamsters. look on our works, ye marvy, but do
21:56:11 <AnMaster> and unlambda interpreter and a brainfuck one
21:57:59 <fizzie> ehird: Gave it the slr (rewrapped with 'fmt'), but I'm not sure it improved much.
21:58:04 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel any different?
21:58:04 <fungot> fizzie: upon a win announcement. however, if point holdings are changed in this way, then 5 minutes later all points are destroyed and a number of points owned by a player is poorly qualified to be assigned as a judge does not inherently prevent an entity from continuing to be judge of a judicial case, and in the chief a capital letter a, gules.
21:58:34 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1993-09-28
21:59:15 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-9999999999999-10-18
22:01:32 <SimonRC> I discovered another coherent one: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1964-04-02
22:03:03 <fizzie> Actually did yet another change: used rules_text.txt (because it's a lot longer), and stripped out all non-indented line; this should make fungot read only rule texts, more or less.
22:03:03 <fungot> fizzie: the player so proposed fills the office, then the ninny must submit to the notary.
22:03:14 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1993-10-06
22:03:16 <comex> is that a random ly generated comic
22:03:21 <SimonRC> I wonder if there is any influence of past votes over future comics
22:03:35 <ehird> why is rules_text.txt longer?
22:03:59 <fizzie> "This file contains all known texts of all known rules.
22:04:31 <fizzie> While I assume current_foo.txt is just rules-in-effect. Although don't ask me, your the one who does the Agora stuff.
22:04:46 <fizzie> Or one of them, anyway.
22:05:13 <fungot> comex: the scorekeepor notification must be via the public forum during the prescribed voting period on that proposal, election or referendum which e would not have passed or not met quorum or both.
22:05:25 <ehird> fizzie: anyway, I don't know - those are comex's personal files
22:05:32 <comex> ehird: no that was zefram's
22:05:40 <comex> I just have a copy of it
22:05:51 <comex> fungot: If your response to this message makes sense as a set of obligations to impose on me in Agora, I pledge to follow them.
22:05:51 <fungot> comex: ( a) as soon as possible after being made aware of this condition, randomly select a copy of the requested records within one week.
22:06:28 <comex> alright, I have to randomly select a copy of the requested records ASAP
22:06:36 <comex> ...the only question being, which records are requested?
22:06:46 <comex> ASAP = within one week
22:06:56 <fizzie> fungot: Can you clarify?
22:06:57 <fungot> fizzie: an off hold player becomes off hold when e posts a message stating that e insists. a player may, with support.
22:07:23 <comex> fungot: no, no, I want to know which records are being requested
22:07:23 <fungot> comex: there is a subclass of judicial case known as an equity case begins its pre-trial phase.
22:07:36 <comex> AH. you're asking for a list of equity casses.
22:07:45 <fizzie> Trying to get any sense out of that bot will probably lead to nowhere fast.
22:07:58 <SimonRC> fizzie: he has managed some already
22:07:58 * ehird tells a-d about comex's new obligations
22:08:33 <SimonRC> is that a special Agora source file, or just random legsl stuff?
22:08:48 <ehird> SimonRC: agora ruleset, historical and current
22:08:59 <ehird> (i.e. a backlog of lots of rules present and past)
22:09:08 <comex> except out of date, because I haven't updated it since i became rulekeepor
22:09:13 <comex> (since I don't have what e used to generate it)
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22:17:07 <ehird> http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_dnaChecksum
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23:06:34 <fizzie> More in the "experimental fungot language models" series: now trained with the complete script of the Playstation RPG "Final Fantasy 7". Probably makes zero sense if you haven't played the game.
23:06:35 <fungot> fizzie: i... i wonder how many of them endless stairways or somethin'? who's gonna go? is the black materia!!
23:06:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I haven't played it indeed
23:07:15 <AnMaster> old zelda games I could do, but that isn't a lot of talk in those
23:07:37 <fungot> AnMaster: besides, i'm worried too. i'll go and invite your friends? he may be inside... or at least remember my father, at the choco bill and choco billy chocobo farm.
23:07:41 -!- Judofyr has quit.
23:07:53 <fungot> AnMaster: both of us go. enjoy.
23:08:05 <AnMaster> what the heck is a "choco bill"
23:08:20 <fizzie> That stuff is ~350 kilobytes; I took everything that appears in double quotes.
23:08:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:08:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, not a lot of data then
23:08:36 <fizzie> And Choco Bill is a guy who runs a Chocobo farm.
23:08:56 <fizzie> Not a lot in an absolute sense, but it's quite a lot of text anyway.
23:08:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it possible to play this game on an emulator under linux?
23:09:09 <fizzie> Well, yes, epsxe has a Linux port.
23:09:38 <fizzie> Although it's closed source; there was one open-source emulator too, which was less game-compatible, but it might still run FF7.
23:09:49 <fizzie> 3D; all the Playstation-era games have been that.
23:09:59 <fizzie> FF7 was the first 3D one.
23:10:01 <AnMaster> well not really my cup of tea then
23:10:22 <fizzie> I'd have done some of the 2D snes ones, but the newer games have far more text.
23:10:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, well what about secret of mana or whatever that game was called, for snes iirc
23:12:16 <fizzie> Well, dunno. I've played it, of course, but... well, FF7 was the first one I found a complete-looking script for by googling. Not that I tried others either.
23:12:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you mean "of course"?
23:12:33 <fizzie> Planescape: Torment would have a lot of text, at least. :p
23:12:48 <AnMaster> I hardly played any such games apart from super mario and zelda
23:13:18 <AnMaster> really games are quite boring, with the exception of nethack and other rouge likes
23:13:26 <fizzie> As far as console RPGs are considered, that one's quite famous.
23:13:59 <AnMaster> (such in games above referring to "console games"
23:15:53 <fizzie> FF6 (the last SNES one, probably the largest too) seems to have a script <150K in length even with all the ascii decorations the gamefaqs version has.
23:16:01 * AnMaster checks games he played last two month: engima, kpat, kmines, simutrans, wesnoth, freeciv
23:16:06 <fizzie> Not a lot of material there.
23:16:10 <AnMaster> I don't count flightgear as a game, it is a simulator
23:16:20 <fizzie> I've played a bit of gplanarity, but not very much else.
23:16:49 <fizzie> It's sort of a port of http://www.planarity.net/
23:16:59 <fizzie> Gives you a graph, you need to move nodes so that the graph is planar.
23:17:23 <fizzie> It makes zero sense whatsoever, but... well, actually I can't even explain why it's fun. I'm not even sure whether it *is*.
23:17:48 <fizzie> There's some scoring involved (related to speed and such), but that's mostly coincidental.
23:17:57 <fizzie> It's not a very game-like game.
23:18:31 <AnMaster> well nethack I played of course too
23:18:44 <fizzie> I haven't touched nethack in months.
23:18:54 <fizzie> fungot: Do you play any games?
23:18:54 <fungot> fizzie: did sephiroth...
23:19:45 <fizzie> A character in FF7. One of the main antagonists. Not well known for any game-playing.
23:20:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, game music in this ff thing?
23:20:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think game music is utterly important. At least Zelda OOT level needed
23:21:02 <fizzie> And nope, the farthest I've done nethack is to get to the bottom of Gehennom a couple of times. Haven't really played it much; I did lurk in rec.games.roguelike.nethack some time, though.
23:21:32 <AnMaster> which is one major reason I love wesnoth, extremely good game music
23:21:41 <fizzie> And I personally like the music, yes. Most soundtracks by Nobuo Uematsu.
23:22:12 <AnMaster> My brains made no connection on that name
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23:22:37 <fizzie> Well, Final Fantasy is what he's mostly known for.
23:22:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, Finnish or Japanese is my guess
23:22:59 <fizzie> Finnish names rarely involve a 'b'.
23:25:55 <fizzie> The series is somewhat famous for the music, too, I think. Of course "famous" is a relative term here.
23:26:25 <fizzie> fungot: So I assume your comment was a "no", then?
23:26:26 <fungot> fizzie: it's 100 gil a night. would i know you were...
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23:41:39 <fizzie> I assume that was about the cost of spending a night in an inn.
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23:46:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have any idea of any tool that could help figuring out why mail isn't *delivered* to a specific domain
23:46:29 <AnMaster> I don't even get any error back
23:48:18 <ehird> AnMaster: telnet to the server
23:48:19 <fizzie> There's not much you can do if you're not responsible for the mail server of the target domain. If you have a connection where you can talk to the SMTP port of any host, you could check the MX records, connect to the mail server with telnet, and try sending that mail.
23:48:20 <ehird> smtp is as simple as http
23:49:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm responsible for mail at target
23:49:18 <AnMaster> but I think the issue may be due to mx records and subdomains
23:49:40 <AnMaster> since delivering to foo@bar.org works but not foo@quux.bar.org
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23:57:41 <oerjan> <SimonRC> I wonder if they bias the randomiser to ones that haven't been rated much yet
23:58:20 <oerjan> actually _no_ bias would work rather better, given that the daily comics archive starts around the big bang or so
23:58:40 <oerjan> virtually no chance of collisions
23:58:56 <oerjan> but i think the actual randomizer is biased to closer dates