00:00:04 <fizzie> If you can find a place to buy it from that's open.
00:00:25 <lament> that's half the piano keyboard
00:00:37 <fizzie> It's low in the sense that it's "not high".
00:00:44 <lament> (which is tuned logarithmically)
00:00:54 <lament> nobody ever tunes things linearly
00:00:59 <oklo> well i may agree with the incredibly low or high ones being out of the log scale
00:01:29 <oklo> i recall making basic programs that played linear scale near there
00:01:44 <oklo> it definitely didn't sound like it was linear
00:01:51 <oklo> and i didn't know shit about music then
00:02:05 <fizzie> They just gave people a comparison tone, and asked them to adjust another one to be half as high.
00:02:27 <fizzie> Non-musicians, I would guess.
00:03:18 <oklo> well maybe musicians who don't know shit about frequencies
00:04:06 <oklo> but wtf, "half as high", i'm not sure that'd make any sense to me if i didn't know that meant an octave.
00:04:56 <oklo> i'd probably think it's impossible because you can get as low as you want
00:05:10 <fizzie> Alternatively people were asked to divide a frequency range to "equally large" regions.
00:05:21 <oklo> i might be content with approximating half of one interval
00:05:39 <fizzie> It's so very difficult to live outside the campus area; all papers are "buy this article for $19 since you don't have a subscription".
00:05:50 <fizzie> Should set up the proxying stuff some day.
00:07:28 <fizzie> There seems to be an ICASSP paper from 1999 whose abstract says they "investicate the often made remark that there are two regions to the Mel scale, the first region (" but then it cuts off and the full text is only available for a fee.
00:08:04 <oklo> well that's prolly the gist of it.
00:08:40 <fizzie> "We show that there is no evidence, based on the experimental data points, that there are two qualitatively different regions or that the lower region is linear and upper region logarithmetic."
00:08:47 <fizzie> (Started a browser with X forwarding.)
00:08:58 <fizzie> Heh, it's a very widely distributed rumour, then.
00:09:57 <oklo> nothing like that fits my intuition the least bit, and i know nothing about sound; would say that's a pretty weird rumour.
00:10:14 <fizzie> Apparently the points aren't exactly logarithmic either, and it's mostly just a matter of how do you want to approximate it.
00:11:08 <oklo> how did you get the rest of it?
00:12:24 <fizzie> I started a browser at one of the computers inside the campus, used their IEEEXplore submission to get the full text.
00:12:55 <oklo> that's some serious hacking right there
00:13:30 <fizzie> Basically seems like they've taken the data points from the original Mel paper (from the 1940s) and noticed that since there's a whole pile of curves that fit the points, you can't really say much more than that it's not linear, it's not logarithmic, and it can be numerically approximated with various functions.
00:14:24 <fizzie> This is a lot of discussion to be having for slide #3, since the whole presentation has something like 17 of 'em. :p
00:14:48 <oklo> yeah i'm sure the presentation was like this too
00:15:01 <oklo> really i'd forgotten context loooong ago
00:15:22 <fizzie> Actually it went really fast; we were running a bit late at that point, so I skipped most of the boring parts.
00:15:36 <olsner> how does this 'mel' scale correlate with the greenwood function btw?
00:16:40 <fizzie> Not sure; that's of course the physiological justification for it. That "position in the ear" thing is a logarithmic approximation too, right?
00:18:07 <olsner> yeah, greenwood is log (1 + f / a) / k, just with different constants
00:19:22 <fizzie> What happens after the cochlea is probably far less understood than the "just a simple matter of physics" part.
00:21:03 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of speech recognition research that's been motivated by "it seems as if humans do it sort of like this, a bit, maybe"; it's a bit of a buzzword nowadays.
00:21:45 <fizzie> Personally I think half of those people just want any convenient excuse to go stick electrodes into brains.
00:22:19 <olsner> heh, it's a convenient idea that by just mapping the raw data onto what's been measured from sensory organs you'll get something profound and/or easily analyzable
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00:28:56 <oklo> hmm. now i kinda wanna go buy some coke. but i'd have to do it.
00:28:59 <oklo> fizzie: fungot
00:29:29 <oklo> *please, fungot
00:30:28 <ehird> oklo: the drink or the drug
00:30:58 <oklo> this time i'll leave it for guesswork
00:31:06 <ehird> oklo: i assume the latter, for "do it"
00:31:21 <oklo> ehird: assume what you wish, big boy
00:31:36 <oklo> (for reference, your nick is longer than mine)
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00:31:55 <ehird> oklopol: rename yourself to ok
00:31:57 <oklopol> and god it smells like pee here
00:32:12 <oklopol> the dog pees everywhere, and i don't wanna sweep it up all the time
00:32:29 <oklopol> that's another thing i'd have to do for it to happen
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00:34:19 <oklopol> first of all, i need to check if you've tampered with ^bool
00:34:28 <oklopol> so don't mind my small-scale flood here.
00:34:42 <fizzie> I was just at Tampere, it's very likely that I've been tampering.
00:34:50 <oklopol> should i go buy some cokers?
00:35:14 <ehird> oklopol: which kind of coke, i ask again
00:36:17 <ehird> due to his unresponsiveness I shall assume that oklopol will return on cocaine.
00:36:22 <oklopol> hmph, the dog was sleeping so sweetly, and now i'm gonna leave and she'll be waiting for me face squeezed against the wall :<
00:36:33 <ehird> he might be buying that
00:37:12 <oklopol> that does take some of the fun away, i have a lot of compassion for lesser creatures
00:37:37 <oklopol> LIKE DOGS, BOTS, POLITICIANS AND WOMEN
00:41:05 <ehird> you can have 0.4 marriage, he said.
00:41:35 <fizzie> I is the sleep now; night.
02:28:29 <oklopol> i think i should be a sleep too, now
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07:15:55 <psygnisfive> theres a wonderful proof by dewdney of the nonexistance of a TM that solves the halting problem
07:17:13 <Slereah> Turing's proof is pretty meh.
07:19:17 <Slereah> Lemme check, I don't remember too good
07:19:29 <Slereah> First of all, it's not about the halting problem
07:19:39 <Slereah> Because his original specs was not halting.
07:20:27 <Slereah> He had two types of symbols. Symbols of the first kind (usually numbers), that are part of the final result
07:20:44 <Slereah> And symbols of the second kind, which are... not. They're markers and such.
07:20:57 <psygnisfive> ok well heres dewneys Devilmachine example
07:21:22 <Slereah> A circular machine writes down a finite amount of symbols of the first kind, a circle-free machine does not.
07:21:37 <Slereah> The halting problem is hence how to know if the machine is circular.
07:21:42 <psygnisfive> suppose that we have a mean H, that can decide whether or not a machine T will halt on some input i
07:21:57 <Slereah> Are you going to feed H in H?
07:22:00 <psygnisfive> you do this by giving H a description dT of the machine T
07:22:15 <psygnisfive> (no, not H, another machine derived from it, hold on :P)
07:22:45 <psygnisfive> so if T halts on i, H goes into 1 and halts
07:22:53 <psygnisfive> if T doesn't halt on i, H goes into 0 and halts
07:23:31 <Slereah> Yeah yeah, I know the oracle machine
07:23:36 <Slereah> Now make with the proof :o
07:23:50 <psygnisfive> now suppose we derive a second machine, DM, build from H
07:24:12 <psygnisfive> such that it has one input, a machine description, which becomes dT and i
07:24:27 <psygnisfive> for the version of H that is wrapped up inside of DM
07:25:01 <psygnisfive> and now suppose we also change 1 so that when DM transitions to 1, it unconditionally transitions back to 1, looping around on forever
07:25:40 <psygnisfive> if DM halts on dDM, then it'll go into state one, and thus it'll loop forever
07:25:58 <Slereah> I think I lost you at H that is wrapped up inside of DM
07:26:58 <psygnisfive> by adding a "copier" onto its inputs, so that the copier takes dT and duplicates it, putting it as the dT and i of the inner version of H
07:27:37 <psygnisfive> its just a machine that is exactly like H, only dT and i are always identical
07:28:02 <psygnisfive> and you also add an infinite loop to state 1
07:28:11 <Slereah> Wait, what is the dT in question?
07:28:21 <Slereah> What machine does it describe
07:28:36 <psygnisfive> psygnisfive: you do this by giving H a description dT of the machine T
07:28:46 <psygnisfive> given some machine description, and an input i
07:28:53 <psygnisfive> it determines if the described machine halts on i
07:28:54 <Slereah> Why are you talking to yourself
07:29:15 <Slereah> What IRC program are you using?
07:29:43 <Slereah> 'cause they usually have <psygnisfive>
07:30:21 <psygnisfive> asking, will DM halt on its own description?
07:30:30 <psygnisfive> if H says yes then this is what happens in DM:
07:30:54 <psygnisfive> DM takes dDM as input, and because it has an inner copy of H, the inner copy of H should ALSO say yes
07:31:20 <psygnisfive> but DM has an infinite loop on state 1, so DM cannot halt on its own input, if H says it will
07:31:35 <Slereah> I think that's pretty much Turing's proof.
07:31:40 <psygnisfive> so maybe H will say no, DM wont halt on its own input
07:32:00 <psygnisfive> if thats the case H will go into 0, meaning so will DM, and 0 is a halting state for DM
07:32:20 <psygnisfive> so either way, H is wrong, and this machine, DM is possible if H is possible
07:32:29 <psygnisfive> thus since DM is not possible, H is not possible
07:33:26 <Slereah> But I think it's the proof of Turing, apart from the letters.
07:33:53 <psygnisfive> all i know is, in class the professor had multicolored chalk
07:34:12 <Slereah> It's a machine D, that when given the standard description of a machine M, test if M is circular, and mark the SD with u, otherwise with S.
07:34:29 <psygnisfive> and the diagram for DM was purple and orange and green and there were all sorts of swirlies here and there representing arbitrary input and stuff
07:34:42 <psygnisfive> so it looked psychedelic and demonic and appropriate for a machine named the Devil Machine
07:35:51 <Slereah> I think I see where theproof is different
07:36:08 <Slereah> Turing applied it directly to the problem of the extension of the computable numbers.
07:45:30 <Slereah> Also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard_Liberation_Front
07:45:37 <Slereah> I'm afraid I must declare holy war on you
07:57:14 <Slereah> Do you like disembodied beards?
07:57:24 <Slereah> Like Le Chuck's beard in Monkey Island 2
07:58:42 <psygnisfive> i have to say, im not impressed by the 2001 beard of the year
07:58:51 <Slereah> What if I sort of shaved my balls, except on the bottom
07:58:56 <Slereah> So that they have a little beard.
07:59:17 <Slereah> Then I can put on a face with a marker
07:59:43 <Slereah> I would slap you with my penis.
07:59:59 <psygnisfive> its an interesting thing that people wish facial hair have no chance in american politics on a large scal
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08:00:33 <Slereah> What about ABRAHAM LINCOLN
08:00:55 <psygnisfive> i think roosevelt was the last bearded president
08:01:17 <Slereah> Didn't he have a moustache.
08:01:25 <Slereah> I'm pretty sure Obama has a ball beard though.
08:04:20 <Slereah> There's too much presidents with the same name.
08:04:37 <psygnisfive> theres only two pairs of same-named presidents in american history :P
08:04:42 <Slereah> Good thing Hillary wasn't elected
08:05:18 <psygnisfive> the bushes, the roosevelts, and the .. other guys from the beginning
08:05:41 <Slereah> John Adams and... Quincy Adams?
08:05:56 <Slereah> I mostly know my US Presidents from the Animaniacs song.
08:06:40 <Slereah> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvy0wRLD5s8
08:08:05 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Andrew_jackson_head.gif
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13:48:01 <oklopol> i don't know if psygnisfive's is turing's proof, but that's the common one, except there's usually less wrapping and descriptions.
13:51:46 <ehird> http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL I love the "Is that what you want?" line. rms is and always has been a fear-mongering person who cannot handle people with other views on commercial software. His position on the linking is totally ridiculous ... he could probably claim that every program on my system must be licensed under the GPL with that.
13:52:05 <ehird> I wish I was cynical enough to call his sudden change of heart mind control. :-p
13:53:06 <oklopol> i don't understand how you people can keep track of pop culture so well, i have no idea what rms means
13:53:16 <ehird> richard m stallman, creator of the gnu project and gpl.
13:53:24 <ais523> Richard Stallman is hardly pop culture...
13:53:36 <ehird> note: last two may be personal opinion
13:54:05 <oklopol> well i know stallman, i'm not *that* much out of the looper
13:54:13 <ehird> quick, forget stuff
13:54:42 <oklopol> well as ais523 said, as long as it's not pop pop culture, it's okay, it's just not not okay if i *don't* know.
13:55:33 <oklopol> what's that kind of a mistake called?
13:56:05 <oklopol> i use terms that show something implicitly, and the implicit parts have inconsistency
13:56:21 <ehird> !(pop pop culture) =>
13:56:21 <ehird> & ((not know) => OK)
13:56:59 <oklopol> (OK ((not (pop pop culture)) => (not know))
13:57:12 <oklopol> (OK ((not (pop pop culture)) => (not know)))
13:57:26 <ehird> (OK (not (pop pop culture))
13:57:36 <ehird> (OK (not know (not (pop pop culture))))
13:57:42 <ehird> that's what you said
13:57:48 <oklopol> no no that's not right, i was just copypasting yours :P
13:57:53 <oklopol> let's try predicate logic.
13:58:48 <oklopol> (forall X)(okay(pop_pop_culture(X) ^ know(X)))
13:59:59 <ais523> where ^ equals AND, or XOR?
14:00:09 <oklopol> "as long as it's not pop pop culture, it's okay, and it's not not okay if i *don't* know." (forall X)(okay(pop_pop_culture(X) ^ know(X))), then emphasis on (not (not (okay(pop ... know(X)))))
14:00:25 <ehird> ais523: and, it's predicate logic
14:00:37 <ehird> oklopol: that's wrong
14:00:44 <oklopol> well no wonder that looks wrong :)
14:00:45 <ehird> it's okay if (it's pop pop culture and I know it)
14:01:00 <ehird> soo you need an extra not there
14:01:01 <oklopol> yeah my predicate logic thing has a copypaste error
14:01:09 <ehird> (forall X)(okay(not(pop_pop_culture(X)) ^ know(X)))
14:01:23 <oklopol> i meant the more popular pop culture
14:01:38 <oklopol> i then quickly forgot what that meant and started getting confused
14:02:07 <oklopol> now let us start over having learned from these past mistakes
14:03:52 <oklopol> "as long as it's not pop pop culture, it's okay, and it's not not okay if i *don't* know." (forall X)(okay((((not pop_culture(X)) ^ (pop_pop_culture(X))) ^ (know(X)))))
14:04:30 <oklopol> the second sentence is just gravy, and the first and in the predicate logic is linguistically a "but"
14:04:56 <oklopol> and once again i have the two pop cultures the wrong way around :P
14:05:10 <oklopol> i conjecture i cannot achieve consistensy in terminology
14:06:06 <oklopol> but yeah if you swap those, it should be fine
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16:12:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm currently working on conditional fingerprints
16:12:59 <ais523> what do you mean by that
16:13:05 <ais523> fingerprints which are included in some builds not others
16:13:14 <AnMaster> basically: A fancy name for adding an #if around the fingerprint
16:13:19 <AnMaster> so it can depend on checks in cmake
16:13:30 <AnMaster> if we don't have ncurses skip TERM
16:14:11 <AnMaster> also my fingerprint managing scripts are looking about as messy as ick's old main() now.
16:14:30 <AnMaster> including a ad-hoc "generate fingerprint list for man page"-mode
16:15:02 <AnMaster> I should probably split out the common code (parse *.spec files) into a separate file
16:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm a question that I suspect you may know the answer to:
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16:29:06 <AnMaster> what if you have a C file that is empty?
16:29:14 <AnMaster> apart from possible whitespace
16:29:42 <ais523> all files have to have at least one declaration in
16:30:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, then what if the C file isn't empty, but everything is in an #if ... #endif that evaluate to false
16:30:09 <AnMaster> logically it would be empty after the pre-processor then
16:30:29 <ais523> write int foo; and it becomes legal
16:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc complains for truly empty files but not ones that are empty due to everything being iffed out
16:31:29 <ais523> an extension, but an obvious one
16:31:33 <AnMaster> ah I know a better way to solve it, include the global header before, it contains some typedefs
16:32:14 <ais523> I can't remember the exact wording
16:32:21 <ais523> comp.lang.c are good for this sort of thing, I find
16:32:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, I'll take a look at the C99 spec. I guess.
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16:40:55 <AnMaster> ais523, hm from now on I fear that libick_ecto_b98.a won't compile without adding a few HAVE_*. At least HAVE_random, HAVE_srandom and HAVE_clock_gettime
16:41:15 <AnMaster> so I should probably try to get the script integrated with your build system
16:41:17 <ais523> hmm... maybe we can write fallback libraries
16:41:43 <ais523> if srandom isn't there
16:41:46 <ais523> provide our own version
16:42:00 <AnMaster> and for clock_gettime() I fall back to gettimeofday()
16:42:32 <AnMaster> Since I try to be POSIX.1-2001 + _POSIX_MAPPED_FILES + strdup
16:42:46 <AnMaster> strdup and srandom/random are XSI
16:43:21 <AnMaster> (which is a superset of POSIX, XSI is required for a system to be Unix however, see SUSv3)
16:43:43 <AnMaster> oh and all those except srandom/random are mandatory in POSIX.1-2008
16:44:11 <AnMaster> but that will be at least a few years before I start depending on the 2008 edition
16:47:33 <AnMaster> btw, IFFI will not need an update for the conditional fingerprint bit due to both versions 1.2 and 1.3 of the fingerprint spec format are supported atm, since 1.3 only added an optional line (%condition:...)
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16:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, in English, if you put a whole sentence within parentheses do you put the . before or after the ) ?
16:56:30 <AnMaster> such as (This is a whole sentence). or (This is a whole sentence.)
16:56:45 <ais523> well, the . is inside the parens
16:57:05 <ais523> the basic rule is that the sentence needs to be punctuated correctly if you remove everything inside the parens
16:58:10 <AnMaster> hrrm, what bash version do you have? (echo $BASH_VERSION)
16:58:57 <AnMaster> I had to change the version needed for gen_fprint_list. Well I could rewrite it to avoid that construct but it would be a bit more work.
16:59:46 <AnMaster> before it needed 3.1 or later, but now it needs 3.2.10 or later (due to a known bug in earlier versions)
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17:20:20 <ehird> <Rodney> nigga (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 44 points, fell into a pit
17:20:24 <ehird> Insert obvious joke.
17:22:26 <ehird> black people can't do anything? :P
17:26:31 <oklopol> i should get me something to eat don't you think
17:26:48 <fizzie> You seem to be always getting things; first coke, now something to eat.
17:26:50 <ais523> eat a floating eye corpse
17:27:20 <oklopol> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=3262169
17:27:31 <fizzie> But beware, you might feel a strange mental acuity.
17:28:18 <ehird> oklopol: so what kind of coke was ita gain?
17:28:20 <ehird> you never admitted.
17:28:58 <ehird> 'cuz this is #esoteric.
17:29:02 <ehird> my logic is flawless
17:29:16 <oklopol> if it's the drug kinda, then i'm admitting i'm a criminal, if it's the boring kind, that's just a boring confession.
17:29:31 <oklopol> in addition to which, this keeps the mystery up, and mysteries are nice
17:30:21 <Asztal> I cracked my copy of linux genuine advantage
17:30:30 <oklopol> are you criminal in ways that aren't accepted by the public?
17:30:35 <AnMaster> ais523, eating dragons is fun too
17:30:37 <ais523> Asztal: I never downloaded it, it seemed the best way to me
17:30:44 <ais523> ehird: it exists, look it up
17:30:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a program
17:31:01 <ais523> someone made as a joke
17:31:10 <ehird> exactly, it's a joke
17:31:11 <ais523> it works the same way as WGA
17:31:13 <ehird> that's not AnMaster territory.
17:31:16 <ais523> just you can uninstall it
17:31:21 <ais523> as one of the many ways to get around it
17:31:26 <ais523> it's also easily hacked
17:31:29 <ais523> especially as it's open source
17:31:40 <ehird> http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/source/
17:32:09 <ehird> <oklopol> are you criminal in ways that aren't accepted by the public? <-- prolly
17:32:30 <oklopol> piracy is accepted by most people
17:32:43 <ehird> depends on the definition of people :P
17:33:09 <oklopol> okay finnish people and ircers from other countries.
17:33:12 <ais523> the even funnier thing about LGA is you actually have to pay them money to get it to work properly
17:33:18 <ais523> or else change the name of the server, I gues
17:36:15 <oklopol> but fizzie, you are right, i am a getophiliac. may i should get help... or more like find it, might be more helpful.
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17:38:05 <ais523> unfortunately, they had to explain it was a joke in the FAQ
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17:38:20 <ais523> along with giving a crack to remove it themselves, just in case someone had tried to run it and got locked out
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17:49:04 <ehird> I want a computer that sucks at power saving.
17:49:10 <ehird> [[ http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7f07k/its_so_cold_that_i_have_to_compile_ghc_to_heat/ ]
17:49:20 <ais523> you could just put a busyloop in the background
17:49:22 <ais523> it comes to the same thing
17:49:33 <ehird> nope, this computer is never hote
17:49:46 <ehird> it's stone cold on the outside, unless i'm using like all of the two cores
17:49:50 <ais523> this one doesn't seem to get hot, but warms the desk underneath it
17:49:54 <ehird> in which case there's minimal heat coming out of the fan
17:50:00 <ais523> and two cores? just put two busyloops in the background
17:50:02 <ehird> on the bottom of the monitor
17:50:10 <ehird> which is the cpu too...
17:52:42 <ehird> $ perl -e 'fork; 1 while 1'
17:52:45 <ehird> ^ i notice nothing.
17:52:51 <ehird> well, things are lagging a bit.
17:52:55 <ehird> but still freezing.
17:53:09 <ais523> ehird: write it as fork, 1 while 1, that would be a lot more fun
17:53:30 <ais523> because the fork is inside the while loop
17:53:43 <ehird> { fork, 1 } while (1)
17:59:25 <ehird> but ais523's is more subtle
18:00:12 <nooga> subtle forkbomb yea
18:00:56 -!- Corun has joined.
18:01:09 <Asztal> there's an intel tool (TAT, I think) which can really raise the temperatures
18:01:25 <ais523> there's powertop too, which can really lower them
18:02:06 <GregorR> Then there's flamethrowers, which are more effective than TAT or prime95.
18:02:08 <ehird> http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf
18:02:32 <nooga> think about a coal basin
18:03:36 * GregorR thinks intently about a coal basin.
18:04:34 -!- Azstal has joined.
18:05:03 <Azstal> I'm starting to think this motherboard isn't as unscathed as I thought it was... :(
18:05:30 <nooga> i am cold, without an eye, ill and bored
18:06:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:06:41 <nooga> srop thinking about coal basin;
18:06:45 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
18:06:51 * ehird srops thinking about coal basin
18:07:21 <nooga> stop thinking about coal basin;
18:08:03 * GregorR waits intently for the rest of that sentence.
18:08:16 <oklopol> srop waiting and do soemthing!
18:08:42 <GregorR> http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg
18:08:58 <nooga> i waited for an error message :C
18:09:16 <nooga> or rather error massage
18:09:39 <nooga> typos happen, when you have only one eye active
18:09:47 <ais523> what happened to the other?
18:11:15 <nooga> it was deactivated and corrupted by rubbish flying with wind
18:11:24 <nooga> glass, to be precise
18:16:30 <nooga> the transistor placement algo is still driving me mad
18:16:43 <nooga> i'm too stupid to figure it out correctly
18:16:53 <nooga> and then i explode with anger
18:33:28 <AnMaster> ais523, slight change to cftoec.sh to be able to support last cfunge revision. pushed that change to same place as before
18:34:17 <AnMaster> no clue if you can merge that patch out of order
18:39:26 <oklopol> ehird: that's a pretty stupid game
18:39:33 <GregorR> ehird: I'M NOT TWITCHY ENOUGH FOR LEVEL 24
18:39:51 <oklopol> ehird: it's trivial and uninteresting
18:40:04 <ehird> oklopol: no its fun
18:40:19 <GregorR> oklopol: Clearly you've played precisely level 1 and went BLEH DIS SUX LAWL
18:40:33 <ehird> Yeah on further levels it gets interesting
18:40:36 <ehird> e.g. the flip-level orbs
18:40:45 <ehird> and the water+lava+flip combinations
18:40:52 <oklopol> GregorR: i played seven levels through
18:41:22 <GregorR> ehird: Calling them "orbs" is a bit of a misnomer :P
18:41:30 <oklopol> but that's simply a boring concept, if there's seriously something interesting or hard in the puzzles somewhere, i can retry.
18:41:42 <oklopol> but the problem with puzzles is, they are usually trivial.
18:41:48 <ehird> oklopol: it's fun and hard to get it fast enough
18:41:51 <ehird> and it gets mor einteresting
18:42:18 <oklopol> there's not much room for improvement, it's just micro-optimization
18:42:33 <ehird> Shut up until you play it properly :P
18:44:31 <fizzie> I played that thing up to level 42, but then I gotzted bored.
18:45:40 <ehird> left, right, space
18:45:42 <ehird> that's all you get
18:45:53 <fizzie> You can do 'down' in water.
18:45:55 <oklopol> well that's a bit retarded
18:46:00 <ehird> oklopol: no, it's not
18:46:14 <fizzie> And you can abort in the middle of the level, yes. If that's what you mean with "kill".
18:46:18 <oklopol> it's not very fun to wait for four minutes to die.
18:46:23 <ehird> i thought you meant
18:46:33 <fizzie> It's the "pause" key, but I forgot already which one.
18:46:38 <fizzie> Then you can select 'continue' or 'end'.
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18:47:56 <GregorR> puzzlet is a small puzzle, he should be able to clear this right up.
18:49:57 <GregorR> I love the cheesy 8-bit music btw.
18:51:09 <ehird> stage 15 is ... trivial
18:51:45 <fizzie> They all up to 15 were pretty much trivial.
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18:52:30 <fizzie> Since you're all talking about it, I'd probably go a few levels further, but it already forgot where I were, and I don't feel like replaying all those.
18:52:35 <ehird> GregorR: I restarted.
18:52:43 <oklopol> lol i actually died at level 14
18:53:05 <fizzie> It could have some sort of passwordy thingie. Or maybe it has, who knows.
18:53:13 <fizzie> So I could continue where I left off.
18:54:37 <ehird> click on the comments
18:54:40 <ehird> it has a list of all the cods
18:55:05 <oklopol> okay 16 had a teensy bit of innovation
18:56:04 <fizzie> It wasn't that bad. Especially since the \-slope was just "keep -> pressed".
18:57:21 <GregorR> That's what I tried the first time and I hit a wall.
18:57:25 <GregorR> I just tried it again and it worked.
18:57:38 <oklopol> okay 17 was harder than the whole game put together
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19:00:29 <ehird> how do you do it???
19:00:57 <fizzie> And 24 had a time of 1; that was easier.
19:01:30 <fizzie> The 0 time is not completely instaneous, but I think it needs a "jump to the roof and bounce" type of thing, it's not fast enough to fall down.
19:03:05 <GregorR> Level 36 is difficult ... but that's just because the precise timing of the tall lava blocks is not my cup o' pigs snot.
19:05:02 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/level46.png
19:05:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have the patience for this one.
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19:09:37 <oklopol> the only hard things i've seen sofar have been one-pixel slots where you need to have absolute precision.
19:09:44 <oklopol> that's not a very interesting type of hard.
19:10:33 <fizzie> oklopol: Did you look at that lvl46 screenshot? that seems to be exactly what this is. Although the comments part say something undecipherable.
19:11:44 <fizzie> You can run past it, the guy doesn't have time to fall down.
19:12:13 <oklopol> well yeah that looks pretty hard.
19:12:17 <fizzie> It's just a single jump plus -> key pressed to the end of the level.
19:12:44 <oklopol> but if the movement is this simplified, i definitely don't want puzzles that rely on having mastered it.
19:13:07 <oklopol> well okay that's the kind of puzzle i can live with
19:13:27 <oklopol> a good puzzle is about having learned the game mechanics and being able to exploit that
19:14:54 <fizzie> This was the only such one so far. :p
19:15:41 <oklopol> GregorR: yeah 34 was pretty evil, i needed two attempts.
19:15:59 <oklopol> because i accidentally hit space after climbing the wall
19:16:38 <oklopol> GregorR: where are you now?
19:20:05 <oklopol> i might be fine with 37 being the first level of the game with 150 sec less time.
19:21:58 <fizzie> These are getting more annyoing; didn't like 51, 52 at all.
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19:26:54 <oklopol> well i didn't like the game in the first place
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19:27:35 <oklopol> in 42 you can't see the guy when jumping up on the pillars, that's probably the hardest part of the game sofar
19:28:04 <oklopol> most levels i haven't really even hard time to look at, i just press a few buttons and they're done
19:28:39 <oklopol> also a serious complication is having space as the jump key, i instinctively go to shift
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19:34:37 <oklopol> fizzie: 45 can be done, right?
19:36:07 <oklopol> i probably spend more time in the menu than in the game
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19:48:02 <oklopol> fizzie: where are you now?
19:48:40 <fizzie> 64. I suck at this stuff; and this one is annoyingly complicated too.
19:51:52 <GregorR> OK, level 41 was bizarrely easy.
19:52:18 <oklopol> okay 54 was goddamn annoying
19:52:41 <oklopol> GregorR: 4X was bizarrely easy
19:53:02 <GregorR> The music for 42 is unnecessarily dark.
20:00:20 <GregorR> Offscreen jumping makes Gregor angry.
20:06:20 <oklopol> GregorR: yeah i complained about that too
20:06:28 <oklopol> but that's pretty much the hardest part of 4X
20:06:39 <fizzie> oklopol: 66. I is slow.
20:08:31 <fizzie> Okay, 67; 66 was fast.
20:15:20 <fizzie> I keep messing the final jumps all the time.
20:19:12 <oklopol> i keep failing the trivial fall-and-evade-evil-lava part in 62
20:23:01 <fizzie> I keep dying in this 69 even though it's not really difficult.
20:27:59 <fizzie> I've even gotten all those dots, just not in the same run.
20:28:46 <fizzie> I think I'm getting tired.
20:30:52 <fizzie> I think stage 70 is special, since it's got 999 time.
20:33:00 <GregorR> I would just like to say that this game has the most realistic physics engine I've ever seen.
20:37:01 <fizzie> Okay, ran out of time in the 999-"second" thing. Out of the 2744 dots, had 226 left-over.
20:37:41 <ehird> i got yall addicted
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20:45:19 <fizzie> Heh, heh; this time I got 71 left-over dots of the 2744. I'm not sure I can finish this level; it's boring.
20:45:54 <ehird> fizzie: can you check the code?
20:46:00 <ehird> (at the bottom of the level select)
20:53:49 <ehird> oklopol: you still playin'?
20:54:14 <fizzie> #71 is again one of those 1-second things.
20:55:40 <fizzie> Just jump up-left so that you bounce to the blue dot faster than just falling down.
20:55:55 <ehird> ... 24 is the holocaust
20:56:24 <fizzie> And for the record, 71 is pretty close to 45 except that the right side is lava so you need to first safely touch the bottom, then move right under it.
20:57:03 <fizzie> Gah, 72 is another one-seconder.
20:57:50 <fizzie> It starts on top of lave, you need to immediately move one pixel right; that column has a two-pixel space, then one pixel of lava and the blue one is above that, and roof immediately on top so you usually can't hit it.
20:57:58 <oklopol> ehird: GregorR got me addicted.
20:58:12 <ehird> oklopol: but i linked to it first.
20:58:52 <fizzie> What, no! 73 is yet another one-seconder, this time with two blue dots. These are getting boring.
20:58:56 <oklopol> ehird: yeah, so? it was indirect
20:59:51 <fizzie> And 74 is a two-seconder.
20:59:57 <fizzie> With three dots. Hate.
21:01:21 <fizzie> And 75 is a zero-seconder. Heh, heh. They should stop with these and soon.
21:02:01 <ehird> fizzie: the game hates you
21:02:03 <fizzie> (With a red dot thing.)
21:03:00 <ehird> they should put all of them together
21:03:03 <ehird> into one massive level
21:03:13 <oklopol> the game hates *me*, fizzie has a lead of 13 levels now :<
21:03:21 <oklopol> i did go to the shop in between tho
21:03:37 <fizzie> oklopol: You'll catch fast when you get to these one-seconders. Although I can't seem to get this 77 done.
21:04:02 <fizzie> My guy is always just rising upwards to the blue dot when it runs out of time.
21:05:12 <ehird> fizzie: bounce off a wall?
21:05:33 <fizzie> 78 is a two-seconder again.
21:06:05 <fizzie> Where you have to navigate a S-shaped path with quite a lot of lava around.
21:06:13 <GregorR> I obviously have to jump, but it won't let me.
21:06:33 <fizzie> 45 didn't take half as many attempts as the latter 0-seconder. For me, anyway.
21:06:55 <GregorR> GEE SUDDENLY THAT WAS EASY
21:07:32 <ehird> I decree stage 50 to be argh
21:08:11 <fizzie> 50 wasn't that bad, although I dislike all the water-jumpery ones.
21:08:27 <GregorR> 46 needs twitchy timing, doesn't it ;P
21:08:50 <fizzie> You just need to land the first opening, then you can keep -> pressed.
21:08:58 <ehird> that one is hilarious
21:09:39 <fizzie> That's why the call it a puzzle.
21:09:40 <GregorR> I didn't realize you could get any distance over a pit without jumping.
21:10:03 <fizzie> Hey, it's got that realistic physics.
21:10:10 <fizzie> Sure you can just run over pits.
21:13:38 <fizzie> Or 12, but the two first are eaten immediately.
21:13:50 <fizzie> It's a 3x4 box full of dots.
21:14:41 <fizzie> 80 is another 2-seconder, with a green flipper. That one has the code 246-810.
21:15:32 <fizzie> This one is very very annoying, because the flipping animation takes so long.
21:16:20 <GregorR> The water levels were always my least favorite in Super Mario :P
21:17:53 <fizzie> I think my progess will stop at this 80; I've been doing these 0-2-second levels by simply iterating a gazillion times, but this one has the forced flipping animation in the beginning, and I don't have the patience to watch that.
21:19:07 <fizzie> 50 isn't so bad, because the later water tiles don't really work like water.
21:21:41 <fizzie> Okay, I'll let oklopol to do the ones after #80, because he's better with the whole "obsessing over things" part. This flipping animation is just too annoying.
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21:33:59 <oklopol> 68 is fun, like 4 minutes of triviality, then a hard part where i always die :P
21:34:14 <oklopol> granted, the ending is just the beginning backwards, but i have more pressure.
21:34:53 <fizzie> What was 68, the one with the four "towers" to climb?
21:36:21 <fizzie> 22:15:11 < fizzie> I keep messing the final jumps all the time.
21:37:08 <fizzie> The silly "zero to two" second sequence starts at 71, you'll hit it soon.
21:37:34 <fizzie> But I took ages and ages to do 69.
21:37:43 <ehird> Hey, who wants to watch a program play nethack?
21:37:52 <ehird> Telnet to nethack.alt.org, select watch, and find ehirdtaeb/
21:38:28 <fizzie> I think a Nethack AI was one in the list of "proposed programming projects" in our Prolog course.
21:38:39 <ehird> This one is 30,000 lines of Perl.
21:38:45 <ehird> Apparently the people working on it are good at nethack. :P
21:40:05 <fizzie> Ooh, stage 81 has 55 seconds.
21:40:18 <fizzie> A welcome break from the monotonicity of it all.
21:41:53 <oklopol> well i've gotten half-way through
21:41:56 <fizzie> I started with it, because it was the hardest one.
21:42:02 <fizzie> I did it very very very carefully.
21:42:20 <oklopol> fourth isn't too hard, second i haven't tried but looks easy, first one can't be failed
21:42:36 <oklopol> except i probably will fail it when i get to it after the three others, because i get all shaky
21:42:52 <fizzie> You can jump upwards if you're standing right on the edge (it'll push the guy sidewards a bit), so the only difficult bit is getting the "entering the notch" part done without hitting lava.
21:43:37 <fizzie> This #82 has water that doesn't slow the dropping speed at all. Otherwise it works just like regular water.
21:43:55 <ehird> DIED AT THE END OF 68
21:44:38 <ehird> fizzie: code of 82?
21:45:14 <fizzie> 863-506, although it's not that far from 80.
21:48:01 <fizzie> I did have to try it multiple times; the fast-dropping water was a bit tricky.
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21:51:49 <fizzie> I dislike time-limited ones most of all, and these all have quite a little bit of time.
21:52:03 <oklopol> i still haven't passed the third pipe, even.
21:52:33 <oklopol> i still often fail the first jump, and there are 8 of them.
21:53:04 <fizzie> I don't think ehird's done 69 either? Go do it, it's fun.
21:53:55 <fizzie> The one with the four pipes to climb; much like an earlier one but with lllava.
21:54:01 <oklopol> this is quite a lot of work just to be able to tell people this game sucks without having to take crap about not having tried the fun levels.
21:54:17 <ehird> oklopol: but you like them
21:55:08 <oklopol> i like what? yeah i've liked a few levels more than the rest
21:55:17 <oklopol> but one level of fantasticcontraption > this whole game sofar
21:55:23 <fizzie> The "STAGE X" title screen and background seem to be changing from green towards red... maybe that can be used to deduce the amount of levels.
21:56:19 <fizzie> I can't seem to get this #85 done in the allocated time.
21:56:27 <oklopol> i can deduce it's either 100 or 256 without any info!
22:02:15 <fizzie> Have I mentioned I don't like time limits? #87 would be pretty easy if I had time to be careful, but I don't.
22:03:34 <oklopol> okay i know how to do 69 now
22:06:28 <fizzie> It wasn't that difficult; I think my third or fourth real attempt worked.
22:06:39 <fizzie> Friggin grngrgnrgr #88. All these later ones have strict time limits.
22:15:56 <fizzie> At least 89 didn't have a bad time limit. 90 again has.
22:18:22 <fizzie> These have the sort of time limits that when climbing up a ledge, you need to bounce off immediately; if you actually stop and stand on the ledge, you run out of time.
22:20:13 <fizzie> Maybe I should actually stop. I was already going to stop at #80.
22:21:15 <oklopol> well okay i needed three attempts.
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22:21:35 <oklopol> if the level is that long, and still you die of not having enough time
22:21:59 <fizzie> Also: #90, I just don't seem to have enough time here.
22:23:01 <fizzie> Oh, that's how it works.
22:23:30 <fizzie> Still not enough, but closer.
22:28:13 <fizzie> And the one single time I seem to be having enough time, I mess up the last jump.
22:31:02 <fizzie> Heh, I was about one pixel above the last blue block, and falling towards it, when I ran out of time.
22:31:26 <fizzie> Okay, I leave levels from #90 on for oklopol to solve. :p
22:31:45 <oklopol> was pretty easy when i did jumping with my right hand
22:31:57 <oklopol> seems it's a biiiiit faster than leftie
22:32:04 <fizzie> Since I'll otherwise lose it somewhere, code for #90 is 883-674.
22:32:45 <oklopol> if i don't get that far level by level, i will stop playing
22:33:22 <fizzie> Whoops, I got #90 done accidentally.
22:33:37 <fizzie> There was a better (and obvious) speed-optimilization there.
22:34:09 <fizzie> #91 doesn't look any better, though.
22:36:29 <fizzie> I completely suck at anything involving water, and #91... well, see for yourselves: http://zem.fi/~fis/level91.png
22:37:34 <fizzie> It's not easy for me, anyway.
22:37:58 <fizzie> Incidentally, I assume the fact that those "seconds" count down at a rate that's something like 2/second is universal and not just a Flash bug here?
22:38:22 <fizzie> Just wanted to confirm.
22:39:06 <oklopol> NO WONDER YOU'RE SO FAR AHEAD YOU'RE CHEATING
22:39:39 <fizzie> Uh... it it actually impossible to enter the number 9 in that code-input screen? It seems to produce just a 0.
22:39:51 <fizzie> So I can't get back to #91 here. :/
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22:40:28 <ehird> other people say the same
22:41:57 <fizzie> It's just the number that doesn't work; you can still enter it with cursor keys.
22:43:56 <oklopol> i mean, you have to jump, and then move both right and left very quickly
22:43:59 <fizzie> Okay, #91 was actually easy, just like ehird said. But #92... well, it's a maze.
22:44:07 <oklopol> now, the jump usually doesn't work
22:44:13 <oklopol> because, well, it's a tight fit
22:44:14 <fizzie> Yes, that is what you have to do.
22:44:36 <oklopol> so i just can't get myself automated on the lower part.
22:45:51 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/level92.png -- now, it might even be not that bad (haven't checked how tight that time limit is), but it looks *boring*.
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22:52:00 <fizzie> Yes, it is a time limit thing. I got 49/55 on my first attempt, where I didn't do any long detours. I assume you need to do things like bounce from the upper wall downwards to fall faster.
22:52:31 <oklopol> that's pretty straightforward
22:52:46 <fizzie> Sure, but I still run out of time.
22:52:54 <fizzie> It's not hard to find the route, no.
22:53:22 <oklopol> you did say the only hard thing is time
22:53:39 <oklopol> well, if i ever get that far, i'll see for myself
22:54:45 <oklopol> is there somekinda trick or am i just slow?
22:55:22 <fizzie> What's impossible about it?
22:56:04 <oklopol> i miscalculated a distance.
22:56:18 <fizzie> You mean you didn't jump from the second stair out from the lava?
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23:03:03 <fizzie> This time in #92 only the two last dots were left uncollected. But I'm getting seriously bored with it.
23:05:28 <GregorR> Finished stage 50 with 0 time left :P
23:08:09 <fizzie> Heh, same two dots left-over; I need some shortcuts. Will stop here.
23:08:37 <fizzie> (I did make a couple of mistakes on the way, so I'm sure it's doable.
23:14:59 <oklopol> GregorR: that happens a lot in 8X.
23:16:40 -!- Corun has joined.
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23:20:03 <fizzie> oklopol: How's it going?
23:22:16 <fizzie> Right. Well, like ehird said, that one was easy.
23:22:29 <ehird> "so if you're not finding it easy, YOU SUCK"
23:23:11 <fizzie> Although I almost ran out of time because I took the upward slope so carefully, and then had a lot of trouble climbing up the other pipe, due to not having done that sort of thing a lot in the previous levels.
23:23:21 <fizzie> I think I had two seconds left when I hit that last dot.
23:25:09 <fizzie> I would like to know how to do 92 significantly faster than what I've been doing, though.
23:25:50 <oklopol> heh, i just failed @ jumping to the last dot
23:26:16 <fizzie> I got that done on my first try, even though I was so sure I'll mess it up.
23:29:04 <oklopol> for me it's usually first try or fifteenth time...
23:29:47 <ehird> you're all ADDDDDDDDDICCCCCCTEDDDDDDDDD
23:30:26 <Corun> Right between my sound machine
23:30:47 <Corun> On a cloud of sound I drift in the night
23:30:56 <Corun> Any place it goes is right.
23:31:06 <Corun> Goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here.
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23:39:48 <fizzie> Got all, with 12 seconds time left.
23:39:55 <fizzie> Practice helped, it seems.
23:40:09 <fizzie> The next one looks very complicated; not sure how difficult it really is.
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23:43:20 <fizzie> Well, it isn't very difficult up to the final part, but that one's tricky because I sucks.
23:43:55 <fizzie> 036-096; too sleepy to continue, so recording the password hear.
23:45:15 <fizzie> The final part is completely lava, and in the end there's a "room" which has two ~8-pixel rows of blue dots surrounded by a two-pixel lava border; I suck at picking up the blue dots before the red dot effect wears off.
23:50:16 <fizzie> Here is a related picture: http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/05/09/teh-floor-iz-lava1/
23:51:18 <fizzie> Incidentally, before you guys revealed to me that it's lava, I thought the yellow-orange squares were "electricity", since the flashing screen looked like "got zapped" to me.
23:54:24 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah i thought of it as electric fence
23:54:39 <oklopol> i just tend to adapt my terminology, and ehird mentioned lava
23:54:53 <ehird> its probably an electric fence
23:55:02 <ehird> yellow-orange thing in games that kills on impact
23:55:27 <oklopol> i closered the game now, so i hope these "codes" actually work.
23:55:45 * oklopol dances a slight dance for finally catching fizzie
23:55:59 <oklopol> unfortunately i'll probably not be able to play tomorrow
23:56:10 -!- Mony has quit ("Join the Damnation now !").