00:00:26 <oklokok> i haven't actually read about it, nor do i know anything about it.
00:00:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:00:49 <oklokok> except that it's some kinda natural correspondence between theorems and programs' types and such somethings yes.
00:00:57 <oklokok> warrie: sure, except not right now... :P
00:01:10 <warrie> I'll tell you later, then?
00:01:38 <warrie> Tell me when you want me to tell you, I guess.
00:01:54 <ehird> warrie: businession list for b nomic
00:02:09 <oklokok> sure. will probably ask in pm unless you have some moral oblication to that.
00:02:15 <ehird> do you make up a new name every time
00:02:19 <warrie> ehird: you finally noticed. I've had it set that way for years. :-)
00:02:38 <warrie> "You finally noticed" meaning "you're the first one to notice".
00:02:40 <ehird> warrie: I remember when you registered to "discussion list for B Nomic <spoon-business@nomic.net>"
00:02:52 <ehird> i remember being really confused.
00:03:15 <warrie> That's because Gmail filled in "discussion list for B Nomic" <spoon-discuss@nomic.net>, and I replaced the "discuss" with "business".
00:03:26 <ehird> warrie: set a-b as "business list for B Nomic"
00:03:28 <warrie> Since that seemed to cause confusion, I also replaced the other "discuss" with "business".
00:03:29 <ehird> and s-b as "Agora Business"
00:04:45 <warrie> a-b is "B Nomic list for Agora", s-b is "B Nomic list for Spoon", a-d is "discussion list for Agora", and s-d is "discussion list for Spoon".
00:04:45 <ehird> let's write game of life in paintfuck
00:04:54 <ehird> warrie: no, that's easily spottable
00:04:58 <ehird> make it so that people are confused
00:05:04 <ehird> a-b = discussion list for B Nomic
00:05:07 <ehird> a-d = business list for B Nomic
00:05:10 <ehird> s-b = Agora Discussion
00:05:14 <ehird> s-d = Agora Business
00:05:34 <ehird> oklokok: game of life can't be hard right?
00:06:39 <warrie> I'm sure Game of Life wouldn't be hard.
00:06:43 <warrie> It might be tedious, but not hard.
00:07:02 <warrie> I just realized that many puzzles are hard to do non-tediously.
00:09:25 <warrie> *[[e]*[*n]*[*w]*[s*]*] is still running, by the way. I know exactly what it's going to do for about the next 2^40 steps, which is annoying, because I'd rather tell it than wait that long. Someone update that interpreter to let me alter memory by clicking on it.
00:10:22 <ehird> warrie: Use pgimenos
00:10:28 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
00:10:33 <ehird> You can give it step count etc
00:10:36 <ehird> but for animation it's slow
00:10:38 <ehird> so use the flash one
00:11:23 <ehird> write a program that puts the memory in the right state
00:11:25 <ehird> then use the program
00:14:09 <ehird> warrie: Doesn't it just sit there after a while?
00:15:16 <ehird> *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[s*]*] <- Machine-esque behaviour.
00:15:27 <warrie> With pgimenos I can't click it to edit memory?
00:15:39 <ehird> But you can set N = 100,000
00:15:42 <ehird> and press run/continue a lot
00:15:51 <ehird> Or, you could write a program to set the memory to how it should be from the c urrent state
00:15:53 <ehird> then run your program
00:16:07 <ehird> *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[s*]*] sure does seem to have a plan.
00:16:47 <ehird> Huh, it's getting rid of its bars.
00:17:07 <ehird> Haha it's like it's building a house
00:17:12 <ehird> warrie: Watch *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[s*]*] in the flash interp
00:19:12 <ehird> You know, I think it might be turing comelpt
00:19:17 <ehird> It looks it after a while.
00:19:32 <ehird> It moves about lines and bashes them into things then weaves and unweaves stuff transforming it over time.
00:21:54 <ehird> It's funny how one basic program structure, only changing the placing of *s and the ordering of the items
00:21:57 <ehird> can produce so many combinations
00:21:59 <ehird> many of which look TC
00:22:29 <ehird> *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[*s]*]
00:23:33 <jayCampbell> Eliot Hird on Solving the Halting Problem Using Visual Approximations of Turing Completeness
00:23:43 <ehird> jayCampbell: lol wat
00:26:40 <warrie> jayCampbell was just being modest, ehird.
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00:27:05 <ehird> *[[e]*[n]*[w*]*[*s]*]
00:27:11 <ehird> Seems interesting, at least.
00:27:14 <ehird> Pretty, certainly.
00:34:15 <ehird> *[[e*e*]*[n*]*[ww*]*[*s]*] it's prodding at memory :O
00:34:30 <ehird> using an increasing-height stick XD
00:36:22 <GreaseMonkey> GregorR: for JSMIPS, i recommend that you allow it to idle a little; firefox gave me the "unresponsive script" warning 4 times when i was loading vim. also, when do you think you'll have write support working?
00:36:43 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: write works ... it writes to memory ^^
00:36:44 <ehird> setTimeout(function () { this.step() }, 0)
00:36:50 <ehird> i know because i wrote that line :\
00:37:15 <GreaseMonkey> then what's the problem with the "Operation not supported" thing in vim?
00:37:27 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: Non-existent on my system :P
00:37:51 <GregorR> What? What are you talking about?
00:38:11 <GregorR> Where do you see this message?
00:38:38 <GregorR> What is the ACTUAL MESSAGE PRODUCED
00:39:11 <GreaseMonkey> it was number 296, something about seeking in a swap file, and operation not supported.
00:39:47 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: Y'know, I fixed the copy/paste problem ... you can copy and paste.
00:40:19 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: Your compute is slow, isn't it :P
00:40:41 <GregorR> It takes ~30 seconds here.
00:40:57 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Wow that's awful
00:40:58 <GregorR> Lemme guess, Firefox 1? :P
00:41:08 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Upgrade you moron.
00:41:16 <warrie> Why are we loading vim in 30 seconds?
00:41:23 <ehird> There's absolutely no reason to use ff2.
00:41:24 <GregorR> Firefox 3 has much faster JS support.
00:41:35 <GregorR> warrie: http://codu.org/jsmips/
00:41:35 <ehird> Apart from irrational and unfounded hatred of the awesomebar
00:41:50 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: I'm aware :P
00:42:16 <GreaseMonkey> i do happen to have firefox 3 as well, but that's a windows version, and i've been lazy
00:42:52 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: welp, upgrade or suffer.
00:43:42 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: You're so hardcore, you compile everything from source!
00:43:52 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, but so's your face.
00:43:55 * GregorR is working on Nethack now.
00:44:00 <GregorR> Nethack = best use of JSMIPS EVAR
00:44:25 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: I wish I could be as cool as you! Compiling everything! Oh! You're so 1337! What do you mean, pointless? Unf unf unf unf.
00:44:28 <warrie> I prefer worthwhile things, like trying to get permission to do something I'm allowed to do anyway.
00:44:29 <Sgeo> I think Firebug doesn't work as well with Firefox 3 :(
00:44:47 <Asztal> get w3m running so we can run jsmips in it
00:44:57 <GreaseMonkey> also, when i say that it takes 5 minutes to load, that's how long it takes to get to the first screen
00:45:00 <ehird> the main devs use ff3.
00:45:16 <Asztal> it even works fine with the 3.1 nightlies too
00:45:51 <GreaseMonkey> 296: Seek error in swap file: Operation not supported
00:47:56 <GreaseMonkey> there's a few keystrokes you may want to convert
00:48:45 <ehird> i did the fancy input code
00:50:06 <GreaseMonkey> should i do that while copying across all the freebsd 7.1-BETA2 files?
00:51:30 <oklokok> in fact you can prove by induction that all numbers are numbers
00:52:44 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: use a fcking binary >_<
00:52:52 <oklokok> GreaseMonkey: that's circular logic......
00:52:53 <GregorR> ehird: I fancied up the input code more.
00:52:59 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: And?
00:53:08 <ehird> Do you have to be a retard to use FreeBSD?
00:53:10 <GregorR> ehird: Previously it only accepted ASCII, now it does control codes etc (the software just doesn't interpret them usefully ;) )
00:53:15 <ehird> Are you required to compile all your own binaries?
00:53:17 <ehird> For no good reason?
00:53:30 <GreaseMonkey> ehird: unless you want to get them from packages
00:53:37 <ehird> And why wouldn't you.
00:53:41 <GreaseMonkey> in which case you'd yell at me for getting old crap
00:53:43 <oklokok> stop making sense, it's very late and you should be saying random nonsense like meeeeeee
00:53:51 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Woo! FreeBSD!
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00:54:12 <GregorR> oklokok: The air was religion with suppressed excitement!
00:54:31 <GreaseMonkey> also, you don't get binaries for linux unless you get them from your "vendor"
00:54:42 <oklokok> yes GregorR how about a nice bowl of eggs on top of that ;)
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00:55:13 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: so why does your 'vendor' suck
00:55:50 <GreaseMonkey> ehird: my "vendor" supplies me with very fresh ports scripts, and all i have to do is fetch them
00:55:52 <Asztal> I can't get man to work without consuming massive amounts of RAM :(
00:56:07 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: and spend 6345345 hours compiling them for no game
00:56:11 <ehird> your vendor sucks.
00:57:03 <GregorR> For anybody who didn't get my reference, you need to watch this: http://brothersmcleod.co.uk/films/watch/23
00:57:19 <GreaseMonkey> if you love binaries, then get your sad ass back on windows.
00:58:48 <GreaseMonkey> also, if you've used freebsd before, their newest scheduler works really really well
01:00:39 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Go back to windows! Binaries are not acceptable because... because I say so!
01:01:22 <GreaseMonkey> ehird: windows is not acceptable because it's an underpackaged antifeatured flaming pile of dogshit
01:01:36 <ehird> Yes, you've explained why Windows is not acceptable.
01:01:42 <ehird> Now explain why binaries aren't. Without changing the subject.
01:01:46 <ehird> Which you've done about 3 times already.
01:02:33 <GreaseMonkey> well, if someone gives you a binary, and you don't have the right libc, it shits itself.
01:02:47 <ehird> I thought your vendor was meant to do it?
01:02:49 <GreaseMonkey> whereas if someone gives you the source, you can actually get it to link correctly
01:02:52 <ehird> You know, just like your vendor has to maintain your portfiles.
01:03:20 <GreaseMonkey> your vendor actually ensures that the binaries you get actually work on your system.
01:03:48 <ehird> You're saying your vendor doesn't test its portfiles? Neato. Sounds stable. I'm going now.
01:04:17 <GregorR> Can we stop with the OS/distro wars already, yeesh
01:04:31 <Asztal> *[[e*s*]*[n*w*]*[e*n]*[*s*w]*]
01:04:43 <GregorR> Asztal: That made my brain hurt :P
01:05:13 <Asztal> thankfully I'm not trying to make actual programs in it, just pretty patterns
01:06:06 <oklokok> it's pretty trivial to program in
01:07:01 <GreaseMonkey> there's a couple of BF extensions i like: "if true", and "while false".
01:07:16 <GreaseMonkey> although that shouldn't be so hard to fix up in a 1-bit version.
01:08:46 <GreaseMonkey> although in a 1-bit version, "while false" is pretty pointless.
01:10:31 <GreaseMonkey> befunge is probably one of the most practical esolangs
01:10:58 <GreaseMonkey> but befunge-93 is still pretty practical, if you remove the board size limit
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01:54:37 <pgimeno> got it working: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton.pfk
01:56:40 <pgimeno> needs 128x128 to see the repeated pattern at work
02:09:50 <GregorR> For some reason loading a 2MB file temporarily takes 2GB of memory X_X
02:15:16 <GregorR> It takes up 2GB just in the process of DOWNLOADING it, before I've processed it at all. It's just storing a base64-enc'd string at that piont.
02:17:32 <GreaseMonkey> yay, i have two native versions of firefox now \o/
02:17:42 <GreaseMonkey> and when i switch between them, it acts like i've upgraded
02:24:14 <GreaseMonkey> and here, it takes up roughly 200MB to look at it
02:25:19 <GreaseMonkey> about 200MB to look, when cached it'd take up about 100MB
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02:26:04 <cathyal> anyone whose good with functional programming languages
02:26:51 <GreaseMonkey> anyways: 296: Seek error in swap file write: Not supported
02:26:52 <GreaseMonkey> 303: Unable to open swap file for "[No Name]", recovery impossible
02:29:16 <GreaseMonkey> i've worked with perl, python, php, lua, javascript
02:29:35 <GreaseMonkey> and then there's C, various types of ASM, various types of BASIC
02:30:04 <GregorR> I'm familiar with functional languages.
02:30:56 <pikhq> Now is the time for a new-kernel-reboot. See ya in 2.6.26-land.
02:34:45 <GreaseMonkey> FreeBSD roflcopter.mshome 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #3: Sun Oct 19 10:56:35 NZDT 2008 root@roflcopter.mshome:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386
02:35:36 <GreaseMonkey> crap, i'm going to have to recompile my graphics drivers
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02:41:00 <GreaseMonkey> FreeBSD roflcopter.mshome 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #4: Sat Nov 29 16:08:06 NZDT 2008 ben@roflcopter.mshome:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386
02:41:15 <GreaseMonkey> ...i'm gutted it's still called 7.1-PRERELEASE
02:41:21 <GreaseMonkey> but i can tell you, it's definitely an upgrade
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03:18:44 <pgimeno> jayCampbell: mind if I delete the JayCampbell page from the main articles? the right name should be your full name anyway...
03:22:03 <jayCampbell> please do, my User:JayCampbell page is what i'm using now
03:22:14 <jayCampbell> i tried to delete JayCampbell but wasn't allowed
03:29:15 <pgimeno> do you want me to delete the user talk page as well?
03:55:37 <jayCampbell> got an interpreter running for http://esolangs.org/wiki/WALP
03:56:05 <jayCampbell> using unix-clear-as-poor-mans-video-redisplay
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04:21:41 <psygnisf_> you know how some languages are lazy in evaluating conditional bodies?
04:22:25 <psygnisf_> i suppose. i know some do, i dont know about all, but ok
04:22:40 <psygnisf_> are there any languages that dont even /parse/ until they need to?
04:25:29 <jayCampbell> you /can/ do that several ways in any reflective language
04:25:43 <jayCampbell> i can't think of a production language that's lazy parse
04:39:47 <MizardX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ThaM <-- when poping from an empty stack, should the program crash or give a constant (i.e. zero)?
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05:07:52 <psygnisf_> as long as the constant can't be normal data
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05:37:46 <GregorR> My newest discovery: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang
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06:13:44 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | o rly HABEEB IT.
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06:28:00 <oerjan> <oklokok> well, oerjan probably reads at least the highlight parts of logs, so, oerjan, see above
06:29:00 <oerjan> also, i haven't read any books on curry-howard. i just sort of absorb it through osmosis. maybe.
06:29:53 * oerjan realizes he is probably the only one awake
06:30:09 <oerjan> sunday mornings are like that.
06:32:20 <jayCampbell> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/walp.rb
06:32:42 <oerjan> hey, can one not get a moment's peace in this channel?
06:33:05 <oerjan> bursting in like a herd of buffalo...
06:33:29 <Slereah_> We can't just leave you by yourself
06:33:38 <oerjan> true, that could be dangerous
07:18:16 <oerjan> <jayCampbell> i can't think of a production language that's lazy parse
07:18:26 <oerjan> seems rather counterproductive :D
07:19:25 <oerjan> also, INTERCAL may be lazy parse, parse errors don't apply unless the command is actually run
07:19:45 <oerjan> although the compilers obviously parse in advance anyway
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07:22:27 <oerjan> <GregorR> My newest discovery: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang
07:23:02 <oerjan> the programming language with a half-life
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07:38:30 <jayCampbell> how do you tell if a 2d language is turing complete
07:39:12 <jayCampbell> trying to figure out what else could be emulated in walp
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08:38:31 <MizardX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ThaM <-- made an interpreter :)
08:54:16 <MizardX> ... and of cource a bf interpreter in thaM, http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p352643611.txt ... though values values in the cells are unlimited
08:54:59 <jayCampbell> i did this today http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/walp.rb but don't know how to tell if it's turing complete
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08:56:41 <jayCampbell> only one variable with a 255 max value, but with an expanded grid i can't rule out the possibility
09:00:05 <MizardX> How would you represent the infinite tape?
09:02:04 <jayCampbell> i might be able to simulate Very Large Numbers with branching and pool resets
09:02:40 <jayCampbell> i'm only mucking with this crap bastard of a befunge derivative because it was unimplemented
09:06:00 <jayCampbell> i'm going to implement jumpfuck or weave tomorrow
09:11:19 <MizardX> Hmm... In Weave, when operating on the global array; Does each thread have it's own memory pointer? If so, is that different from the pointer to the local array?
09:13:48 <MizardX> If I had to choose, I'd go with 'yes' on both questions.
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09:52:00 <Slereah_> Does any of you know his Mathematica?
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10:47:15 <lostgeek> no.. I think I found the right place ;)
10:47:55 <lostgeek> someone on the PaintF*** thread mentioned this channel
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10:50:25 <Slereah_> So what brings you to our fine channel?
10:50:37 <Slereah_> Are you seeking to purchase some weed?
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10:51:23 <whtspc> I can't get your application starting
10:52:21 <lostgeek> I'll add some nice buttons to use it without the command line later
11:00:02 <whtspc> Ok sorry got it working
11:00:36 <lostgeek> could be faster. but this way I could even make it interactive so that you can add commands while it is running :)
11:01:09 <lostgeek> I'm seeking for a matching ']โ everytime I find a '[โ
11:01:14 <whtspc> I like to watch while it's running, so it doesn't have to be too fast
11:02:07 <whtspc> I do it the other way round
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11:02:55 <lostgeek> when I find a '[' I add the pointer to a stack
11:03:15 <lostgeek> and if I need to jump out of the loop I seek the matching ']'
11:03:44 <lostgeek> I don't remember my code well, when I was coding at 2 am ;)
11:10:00 <whtspc> It's very nice I hope you continue development
11:10:11 <whtspc> It would be cool to have input grid
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12:07:44 <pgimeno> don't know if some people missed this... http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton.pfk
12:14:17 <lostgeek> mh... doesn't work with my interpreter...
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12:22:37 <pgimeno> I've prepared an uncommented version, I'll put it in the wiki
12:23:36 <pgimeno> what are "atomic statements"?
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12:27:39 <whtspc> atomic statements: someone called them that: [*] will always make current cell 0
12:28:31 <whtspc> I don't know the programmers term for it
12:28:46 <whtspc> [*]* makes current cell 1
12:29:17 <pgimeno> well, these are just common language constructions, I don't think it's necessary to mention them
12:29:26 <pgimeno> mind if I erase that part?
12:31:04 <pgimeno> is the announcement time in the wiki in CET?
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12:32:12 <whtspc> November 30, 2008, 04:31:31 AM there at the moment
12:32:13 <lostgeek> new release: http://lostgeek.de/doku.php/en/geekness/paintfuck/interpreter
12:32:30 <lostgeek> oh.. maybe I should include an jar file *g*
12:32:53 <whtspc> don't know what time that is
12:46:17 <whtspc> great lostgeek, love generating at pixel-level
12:47:44 <lostgeek> don't know if there are libraries for that
12:48:06 <lostgeek> do we have a weather bot in this channel? need to know if its raining :D
12:48:17 <pgimeno> I'm hesitating whether to include Paintfuck in the 2D languages. I'd say it's not. Opinions?
12:48:25 <whtspc> any movie-format will do mpg, avi :)
12:49:08 <lostgeek> *stands up and opens the window*
12:49:39 <whtspc> the language itself isn't 2d
12:50:03 <whtspc> the language makes creating 2d only easier
12:50:07 <pgimeno> oklokok: do you have an userpage in the wiki?
12:50:49 <lostgeek> it's a language with a 2d data storage. the language itself isn't 2d
12:51:51 <pgimeno> whtspc: mind to give a real name?
12:52:38 <whtspc> but it's Wouter Visser
12:53:17 <lostgeek> GIFCanvas is a small Javatm package (9.6 KB uncompressed) to display Animated GIF89a images.
12:53:43 <lostgeek> now I need one to create them :)
13:15:36 <whtspc> pgimeno: nice, I still need to learn alot :) thanks
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13:25:57 <lostgeek> now I need one to create them :)
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13:53:09 <ehird> a disturbing amount of traffic here due to paintfuck :p
13:54:59 <pgimeno> wow, http://arxiv.org/abs/nlin/0306022v1
13:56:49 * ehird clicks. but if it's something amazing and on arxiv it's probably bullshit?
13:57:29 <ehird> that was proved in 2000
14:00:39 <ehird> http://www.project-euh.com/pong/?
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14:07:09 <SimonRC> ehird: that doesn't work :-(
14:07:21 <SimonRC> the objects don't actually move
14:07:38 <ehird> SimonRC: adjust your browse
14:07:44 <ehird> it's stopping scripts resize/move windows
14:07:50 <ehird> it'll be somewhere in your settings
14:12:37 <ehird> pgimeno: that langton...
14:12:56 <ehird> you know all paintfuck needs?
14:13:03 <ehird> , from brainfuck to get a key from the keyboard.
14:13:11 <ehird> pong, except playable
14:13:18 <ehird> where you're actually playing on the program's memory
14:14:13 <pgimeno> I'm just touched by His Noodly Appendage
14:14:29 <ehird> the fsm approves of langton's ant
14:14:34 <ehird> pgimeno: i don't see it tracking state
14:14:40 <ehird> is it in the actual "head"
14:14:42 <ehird> i.e. too quick to see it
14:14:59 <ehird> it actually runs fast.
14:15:16 <ehird> i wish it was a bti shorter though, it would seem like this should be "easy" in paintfuck
14:15:36 <pgimeno> the east check is consuming, I'm writing a fixed version
14:15:53 <pgimeno> but I have a requirement for this version that will make it longer
14:16:15 <pgimeno> that all 4 subcells of cells are filled, not just the NW subcell
14:16:28 <ehird> pgimeno: ah, are there spaces between them?
14:16:38 <ehird> if you're storing state in the head, surely you could make them just one cell
14:16:48 <ehird> because only the head needs state
14:17:39 <pgimeno> I need 4 cells for state for performance... maybe I can shorten it to 2...
14:18:07 <ehird> pgimeno: yes, but you only need state in the head
14:18:13 <ehird> the actual trail can be just one-cell, can't it?
14:18:30 <SimonRC> wait, is this langton's ant in PF?
14:18:34 <pgimeno> yes but where do you do calculations?
14:18:39 <ehird> SimonRC: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton.pfk
14:18:41 <ehird> pgimeno: at the head
14:18:50 <ehird> have a 4-cell head that walks around, and leaves a trail of one-squares
14:18:56 <pgimeno> ehird: and how do you do calculations without messing the state?
14:19:17 <ehird> pgimeno: leave a blank cell(s) in the head for calculation
14:19:25 <SimonRC> why does the state need to be on-grid?
14:19:27 <pgimeno> ehird: you're welcome to design such
14:19:28 <ehird> then one langton square = one square
14:19:31 <ehird> SimonRC: memory = grid
14:19:47 <ehird> SimonRC: depends on interp
14:19:49 <pgimeno> SimonRC: I didn't see any way to keep it in the program flux
14:19:58 <ehird> anything from 100x100 to 1000x1000 i guess
14:20:32 <ehird> it's an interesting thing because you have to design your prorgams so that they 'think' in their output
14:20:38 <ehird> effectively OCRing it each iteration
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14:26:08 <pgimeno> <SimonRC> how much state is there? <- if you mean in Langton's ant then it's just 2 bits of information
14:26:51 <pgimeno> namely the last move's direction
14:27:23 <ehird> pgimeno: i think that would work with a grid like this:
14:28:12 <ehird> yab x,y = last dir, z = pointer, a,b = calc space
14:28:25 <ehird> and one-square trail, i'd have to think about it :P
14:30:29 <pgimeno> I just could think of creating a blank row or column at the head's position for extra storage and calculation and scroll the rest as the head is moved, but that would take forever
14:30:51 <ehird> it already takes forever
14:48:00 <SimonRC> If TDWTF goes downhill noticeably in the future, we could pick this article as the Shark-Jumping moment: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/nice_num,-mean_programmer.aspx
14:48:35 <SimonRC> a nicely-written C function gets a whole front-page article to itself
14:49:10 <SimonRC> it formats numbers by "using goofy modulus math".
14:49:41 <ehird> SimonRC: hey, you copied a reddit headline
14:50:00 <ehird> also, the daily wtf jumped the shark like years ago
14:50:17 <ehird> SimonRC: reddit had a story a few adys ago about it basically saying the same thing
14:50:35 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7g8qf/nice_code_stupid_submitter_in_which_thedailywtf/
14:50:55 <ehird> reddit is pretty old.
14:51:04 <ehird> early 2005 sorta thing.
14:51:41 * ehird reminisces of the days before lolcats game, when the front page looked approximately like "Lisp calvin and hobbes haskell"
14:52:05 * ehird would reminisce of the days when it was written in lisp [they moved to python] but wasn't around for that.
14:57:25 <SimonRC> and 2005 is, like, late medieval in computer years
14:57:56 <SimonRC> hmm, that sounds a bit off actually
14:58:20 <ehird> i think reddit appeared just before the web two point ohhhh boom
14:58:59 <olsner> it's funny that the dailywtf article mentions all that is sensible with the function, while missing the actual bugs, like what happens to LONG_MIN and what happens if long happens to be 64-bit
14:59:51 <olsner> or maybe they've just successfully trolled a *lot* of people without them noticing
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15:01:36 <ehird> the guy who does the code snippets these days seems to know ruby and java and naught else
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15:11:01 <pgimeno> ok, this is how it SHOULD have been done (three at a time): http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/nice_num.txt
15:11:29 <pgimeno> That *would* be a WTF candidate.
15:11:46 <ehird> DISCLAIMER: JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE
15:11:56 <ehird> pgimeno: beautiful!
15:13:04 <pgimeno> that of assigning an external buffer is lame, when you can return the local buffer :P
15:14:16 <pgimeno> the for condition should be n > buf + 1
15:14:45 <olsner> hey, that buffer is stack-allocated! surely that doesn't work :P
15:14:48 <ehird> pgimeno: i think it's entirely a bug :P
15:16:10 <pgimeno> olsner: I don't pretend it to work, I was joking :P
15:16:30 * SimonRC seems to recall one of the Schildt books recommending returning a pointer to a local array at one point, because it was likely to be ok in that situation.
15:17:04 <SimonRC> pgimeno: yeah, well he's Schildt
15:17:43 <ehird> [[In addition to his work as a computer scientist, Schildt is the original multi-keyboardist for the progressive rock band Starcastle, appearing on all of the group's albums, most of which were produced from 1976-1978]]
15:18:52 <SimonRC> olsner: yeah, as long as you use it immediately after the function returns it probabl woon't have been overwritten, is the reasoning I think
15:28:54 <ehird> http://music.sympatico.msn.ca/newsandfeatures/contentposting_ontherecord?newsitemid=1fa0a490-9979-4671-be6a-652113d8724d&feedname=MusicNewsBlog&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=False
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15:30:17 <ehird> your interp is fast.
15:30:34 <ehird> and java too but oh well
15:30:57 <ehird> couldn't flip() be:
15:31:09 <ehird> grid[gridPointer[0]][gridPointer[1]] = ~grid[gridPointer[0]][gridPointer[1]];
15:31:15 <ehird> and ... not be in a method?
15:31:19 <ehird> it'd be faster, probably?
15:31:38 <lostgeek> don't think that it's much faster and flip() is better to read
15:31:45 <ehird> this is a perfect oppertunity for me to make a lightning fast interp
15:31:58 <ehird> using the HI TECH display mechanism of "VT-100"
15:32:04 <lostgeek> and I'm planning a >2-ary version of brainfuck :)
15:33:21 <ehird> lostgeek: suggestion - add a textbox like the other interps
15:33:26 <ehird> it just kind of "fits" with the lang
15:33:36 * ehird 's interp won't have one due to lazy, but yours uses a proper gui lib and stuff so
15:34:01 <lostgeek> I never saw the other interpreter
15:34:19 <ehird> or pain.exe or whatever
15:34:28 <ehird> grid[gridPointer[0]][gridPointer[1]]
15:34:31 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
15:34:40 <ehird> lostgeek: i'm on a mac too
15:34:44 <ehird> that's why i used the .swf
15:34:53 <ehird> http://willhostforfood.com/access.php?fileid=43044
15:35:04 <ehird> and the pgimeno one is in JS
15:35:26 <lostgeek> yeah. next version will have something like that
15:35:57 <lostgeek> but I _hate_ swing so maybe it'll take a while ;)
15:36:28 <ehird> why are you even using java :-P
15:36:45 <lostgeek> java is cool and multiplatform
15:36:56 <ehird> there are plenty of cool & multiplatform languages
15:37:02 <ehird> like...every scripting one. :-P
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15:52:52 * ehird is writing an interp in c
15:53:07 <whtspc> Lostgeek: I find the difference in animation speed between 0 and 1 kinda big, but I'm not allowed to use broken numbers? 0.5?
15:53:22 <lostgeek> yeah I know... thats a problem
15:54:17 <whtspc> If you know then it's ok, just some constructive criticism :)
15:54:17 <lostgeek> 0 is rushing as fast as possible. 1 ist waiting 1 ms between every command
15:54:37 <lostgeek> yeah. but the problem is, that I don't know how to "fix" it
15:55:27 <ehird> lostgeek: can't, really
15:55:33 <ehird> 1ms sleep is not 1ms sleep
15:55:36 <ehird> unless you're on a RTOS...
15:55:51 <ehird> you're sleeping like, 10x that, minimum i'd guess :-P
15:56:42 <pgimeno> ehird: non-RT OSes should be able to wait the specified # of ms in average
15:57:02 <ehird> pgimeno: to 1ms precision?
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15:57:23 <pgimeno> like: wait either 0 or <minimum> ms
15:59:58 <pgimeno> my pf interpreter runs 7.5 instructions per iteration in average
16:00:22 <pgimeno> (in? on? my english sucks as these)
16:02:28 <whtspc> btw there's again a new interpreter: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.msg112462#msg112462
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16:03:49 <pgimeno> I was thinking about making one in Lazarus but I was Laz-y
16:05:55 <pgimeno> I don't feel like learning SDL just for writing an interpreter, or is there any other graphics library that makes it simple to write graphic apps?
16:06:05 <ehird> think i've written my interp
16:06:13 <ehird> 116 lines of c hopefully
16:07:00 * pgimeno ponders writing a curses version
16:07:14 <ehird> just the vt-100 cursor codes
16:07:49 <pgimeno> lostgeek: sorry, "in C" was implied :)
16:09:00 <lostgeek> It's funny how you can keep a bunch of ner^W geeks busy ;)
16:10:27 <SimonRC> the irssi windowing system is insane
16:10:38 <pgimeno> I missed this in an esolang recently, everything was too serious and intrincated just for the sake of being serious and intrincated
16:11:18 <pgimeno> no humour, no niceness features
16:14:08 <pgimeno> GregorR: mind if I move "Schrodilang" to "Schr๖dilang" and add a redirection in the former, or is that the proper name?
16:14:33 <whtspc> I'll write a wii-interpreter
16:15:21 <whtspc> flash is the only language I know well
16:16:35 <SimonRC> are there any incremental C compilers?
16:17:01 <SimonRC> you can write an test a program bit by bit like at a python prompt?
16:17:54 <ehird> what was the whiteout again:
16:18:03 <ehird> SimonRC: there's a c repl
16:21:17 <whtspc> ehird: yes, but it seems to end up in infinite loop somehow
16:21:29 <ehird> whtspc: how is that surprising?
16:22:08 <whtspc> ok it's not surprising, but it makes the piece of code useless
16:23:54 <ehird> pgimeno: whiteout.
16:23:56 <ehird> only our interp does white=bg
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16:29:04 <SimonRC> hmm, there is no ability to define functions in that
16:30:26 <ehird> it's a brainfuck derivative
16:31:11 <SimonRC> actually, I might be worng there...
16:34:25 <SimonRC> but that type of thing isn't what I was thinking of as an "incremental C compiler"
16:34:45 <SimonRC> I was thinking something like a traditional Forth
16:34:52 <ehird> c isn't conductive to that.
16:36:16 <SimonRC> correction: because I could, if I could be bothered
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17:09:54 <Slereah> it's Brittany here. We only get rain.
17:09:56 <jayCampbell> question, in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Weave, should <> move each thread's pointer on both the thread's and master's tape, or just one depending on '~' ?
17:10:14 <jayCampbell> the latter seems more useful, but the former is probably what was meant i think
17:18:29 <ehird> Um, *[e*]* should halt in paintfuck, right?
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17:21:01 <lostgeek> is there a version of langtons ant withhout the comments?
17:22:37 <ehird> just strip the comments
17:23:34 <lostgeek> i made an code window with highlighting of the current command
17:24:42 <lostgeek> and at a speed of 20 it takes like 5 seconds to scroll through the comments
17:26:04 <ehird> lostgeek: parse the program before executing it.
17:26:10 <pgimeno> GregorR: mind if I move "Schrodilang" to "Schr๖dilang" and add a redirection in the former, or is that the proper name?
17:26:17 <ehird> as a bonus loops are faster
17:26:43 <GregorR> pgimeno: My records indicate that there was no umlaut on that 'o' :P
17:26:53 <lostgeek> ehird: but I wanted to make the code changable on the fly
17:27:13 <pgimeno> lostgeek: look in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Paintfuck
17:39:06 <lostgeek> try this: http://files.lostgeek.de/Geekness/PaintFuck/Release/PaintFuck-0.2a.tar.gz
17:39:20 <lostgeek> my code window is mostly done :)
17:39:43 <decipher> can we edit the wiki to add more links for paintfuck interpreters?
17:40:55 <lostgeek> I think we should make an own section. There _surely_ will be more interpreters
17:41:31 <decipher> yeah i agree, i have coded 2 interpreters, one in C++ and the other one in obfuscated C
17:41:59 <lostgeek> we should code a brainfuck interpreter for paintfuck!
17:42:15 <ehird> but convertable via a program
17:42:22 <ehird> being that it's essentially brainfuck -> smallfuck
17:42:57 <decipher> ehird: i guess he meant an interpreter written in brainfuck for paintfuck
17:43:17 <ehird> well you could do that, armed with the vt-100 cursor codes.
17:43:32 <ehird> it'd probably be more tedious than hard
17:43:32 <decipher> :) that would be something cool to try
17:43:37 <ehird> jayCampbell: naw, my interp uses the vt-100 terminal codes
17:43:51 <ehird> use a small font :P
17:44:15 <jayCampbell> i wish i could remember where to find that CPU written in Life gliders
17:45:22 <jayCampbell> threaded brainfuck, do its tapes move together
17:48:12 <MizardX> Well... It is unspecified, so either way is ok. Personally I'd go with that each thread has two pointers each; on for the local tape, and one for the global tape.
17:50:59 <lostgeek> what about threaded paintfuck with two pointers
17:51:31 <ehird> wn*[[[n*]*s*s[w*]*e*e[s*]*n*n[e*]*w*w] <-- who wants to make my spiral not mess up when it reaches the center
17:56:27 <ehird> jayCampbell: it's a square spiral.
17:56:49 <ehird> *[[n]*[*e]*[s*]*[*w]*] i wish i knew what this was doing
17:58:17 <MizardX> ehird: wn*[[n*]*s*s[w*]*e*e[s*]*n*n[e*]*w*wn*]* fixed
17:59:03 <oklokok> pgimeno: i don't know whether i have a usepage. i'm a bit afraid of wikis
17:59:11 <ehird> MizardX: you win 50 internets!
18:00:25 <jayCampbell> <ehird> *[[n]*[*e]*[s*]*[*w]*] i wish i knew what this was doing
18:00:32 <ehird> it looked interesting
18:02:35 <jayCampbell> because it runs in circles it mimicks something like a 2,2 cellular rule
18:02:54 <pgimeno> oklokok: ok, I've leave just your nick in the Paintfuck page
18:03:32 <ehird> pgimeno: his main nick is oklopol
18:04:51 <jayCampbell> i could see using something like that critter as a second stage, after setting up a board for it to run around
18:05:23 <ehird> it doesn't do that for me
18:05:27 <ehird> try it on the official interp
18:05:37 <ehird> *[[[n*w]n*[s*e]e*]*]
18:05:42 <ehird> looks like a cellular automata
18:05:59 <oklokok> ehird: if you make a reasonably fast paintfuck interp, i can make a pong.
18:06:07 <ehird> oklokok: use the exe one
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18:07:06 <jayCampbell> that stream of bits when it settles into a repeat pattern is interesting
18:07:07 <lostgeek> oklokok: if you make a multithreaded interpreter, with keyboard input...
18:07:26 <ehird> i.e. two ais playing pong against each other
18:07:46 <oklokok> pgimeno: put my nick there as "oklopol"
18:07:50 <oklokok> that's my most official one.
18:07:51 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
18:08:05 <oklopol> ehird told you. not really a surprise but anyway
18:08:30 <oklopol> lostgeek: why multithreaded?
18:09:01 <oklopol> well i was thinking player + ai, but whatever
18:09:16 <oerjan> <jayCampbell> i might be able to simulate Very Large Numbers with branching and pool resets
18:09:25 <oerjan> you'd need an infinite program
18:09:29 <ehird> oklopol: it has no input
18:10:08 <lostgeek> well I haven't had the chance to actually program something bigger in paintfuck yet...
18:10:12 <lostgeek> I was only writing the interpreter
18:10:21 <lostgeek> so I don't really know what you would have to do for that
18:11:20 <jayCampbell> this one shows how to build the spaceship from Contact *[[[n*w]n*[s*e]e*]*]
18:11:41 <oklopol> ehird: i guess i could have it take the seed from the first line.
18:11:56 <ehird> oklopol: just make it play a predictable game
18:11:57 <oklopol> but really it'd be just stupid to make one for an interp that slow
18:12:04 <ehird> it's not very slow
18:12:24 <ehird> oklopol: if it's too slow use http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php or the java one or the c one
18:12:44 <oklopol> well, i guess it's the perfect speed for actually seeing the logic that moves that paddles + ball
18:12:49 <oerjan> <Slereah_> Are you seeking to purchase some weed?
18:13:03 <ehird> oklopol: just keep the ai simple enough :P
18:13:05 <oerjan> i wish i could say that was out of the ordinary here
18:13:08 <Slereah> oerjan, do you spend all day reading the logs?
18:13:25 <Slereah> Also do you want some weed
18:13:40 <ehird> *[[[n*w]n*[s*w]se*]*]
18:16:37 <oerjan> <pgimeno> is the announcement time in the wiki in CET?
18:16:54 <oerjan> you can set your timezone in the preferences.
18:17:10 <ehird> its part of the page source
18:17:15 <ehird> Original Paintfuck announcement (2008-11-22 14:28:50 UTC)
18:17:51 <oerjan> although i've occasionally find that annoying when i want to add an unsigned template
18:17:58 <oerjan> since i have to convert manually
18:19:15 * oerjan flaps his ears to fly, then drops a rock on ehird
18:26:17 <ehird> can it e shorter? :D
18:26:50 <pgimeno> oerjan: that was not the issue, sorry, I meant the time that whtspc mentioned as the creation time for the Paintfuck article
18:27:11 <pgimeno> *for Paintfuck in the article
18:28:10 <pgimeno> *announcement time (sorry, too much langton lately)
18:31:14 <ehird> oklopol: how goes the pong
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18:36:48 <lostgeek> mh. I somehow managed to crash my book
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18:58:24 <oklopol> ehird: did i say i was going to do it now?
18:58:47 <ehird> oklopol: it was implied
18:58:55 <ehird> oklopol: but srsly do it <.<
19:33:00 <ehird> *[[*e]*[*n]*[*w]*[s*]*]
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19:44:23 <oklopol> buttt i have others to do!
19:45:37 * oerjan decides not to make a butt joke anyhow.
19:47:04 <ehird> it will be awesome
19:47:42 <ehird> oklopol: as a bonus you don't have to handle losses
19:47:47 <ehird> when the ball goes through one end
19:47:51 <ehird> it automatically starts again from the other
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20:05:40 <lostgeek> I think my interp is reaching the point where I need to rethink the code and comment :)
20:05:54 <oerjan> ehird: we don't all have a letter all to ourself, you know
20:06:13 <ehird> two-charactetr prefixes should be unique!!!
20:06:53 <lostgeek> so I need to change my nick to lastgeek? *g*
20:07:05 <ehird> lostgeek: change it to zy3jkanfka
20:07:06 <oerjan> lostgeek: won't help for long
20:07:08 <ehird> that's pretty uniqu
20:07:17 <oerjan> where is lament anyway.
20:08:16 <oerjan> lostgeek: you could try lustgeek though
20:08:46 <lostgeek> anyway.. has someone made a 99 bottles of beer in paintfuck yet? :)
20:09:09 <ehird> i'm gonna write a counter
20:09:10 <oerjan> there seems to be that slight lack of ascii output...
20:09:17 <ehird> oerjan: draw the text
20:09:22 <olsner> you should build it as a program that paints 99 beer bottles, then unpaints them one after one
20:09:34 <olsner> while scrolling the lyrics :P
20:10:51 <oerjan> i guess it's only a matter of determination
20:11:36 <lostgeek> i think with procedures it would be much easier
20:11:59 <ehird> keep the minimalist aesthetic and orthogonality
20:12:04 <ehird> *[[s*en]s*nw[w]es]
20:12:25 <oerjan> drawing a fixed letter is trivial, just tedious
20:12:28 <ehird> basically copy, add one, then reset back to position 0
20:13:51 <oerjan> hm doing the arithmetic directly on the drawn digits would be sorta cool
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20:14:30 <oerjan> oh i know! a program that does manual arithmetic :D
20:17:57 <ehird> is that even possible?
20:18:10 <decipher> a scroller is possible and has been done
20:18:14 <ehird> i.e. it copies every square above it one down, then moves itself one down, then repeats
20:18:16 <ehird> no matter what is above
20:18:32 <ehird> then, it can scroll forever
20:19:51 <decipher> *s*s*s*s*e*e*n*n*sse*e*n*n*n*n*ee
20:19:51 <decipher> *s*s*s*s*nne*e*e*enn*s*s*s*s*ee
20:19:51 <decipher> [n*n*n*n*e*e*e*e*ssw*w*w*ss*e*e*e*ee]
20:20:09 <ehird> pastie.org in future plz :p
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20:21:00 <ehird> decipher: i swa that, but
20:21:07 <ehird> can it handle arbitrary stuff?
20:21:23 <ehird> can it be done vertically? that is, it copies everything above a line downwards
20:22:03 <lostgeek> if you copy the code from the slider for the scale (1-10 px per field)
20:22:10 <lostgeek> and use it for the speed (0-5000)
20:22:14 <lostgeek> and forget to change the variables
20:22:31 <lostgeek> with 1500 px x 1500px per field
20:22:45 <lostgeek> so you get a window of 300000 x 300000 px
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20:30:01 <pgimeno> Non-commented version of Langton's Ant with 2x2 NOT-HOLLOW cells: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck-langton-nothollow.pfk
20:30:36 <pgimeno> that one is slower because it has to do many copy and reset operations
20:30:55 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nothollow.pfk
20:31:58 <ehird> pgimeno: can you add an option to yur interp to start at 0,0
20:32:36 <ehird> my copier does work
20:33:04 <ehird> but it copies anything at all right
20:33:08 <ehird> with no special confi
20:34:25 <ehird> decipher: lostgeek: pgimeno: http://pastie.org/327245 my generic copier
20:34:37 <ehird> see the comments for instructions :-P
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20:52:13 <ehird> nobody wants to try my copier? :P
20:53:18 <ehird> just [[*n*]w[w]*se*[*s*]w[w]*ne*], with the precondition that it's at the one-up-from-bottommost leftmost cell, there is a white line running all across the top and bottom, and the drawing is in the middle
20:53:30 <lostgeek> sorry. need to add comments to my program...
20:53:42 <lostgeek> got 521 lines of code... and 4 lines of comment
20:53:42 <Sgeo> What language is this/
20:54:18 <ehird> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
20:54:22 <ehird> i'm not sure my copier works for multiple lines
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20:56:37 <ehird> i'm not sure if it's working slowly or breaking on multiple lines, haha
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21:24:23 <pgimeno> new improved version of my interpreter
21:26:49 <comex> http://www.dyalog.com/dfnsdws/n_kt.htm
21:26:54 <comex> I can't believe that isn't an esolang
21:26:56 <pgimeno> and origin option (per ehird's request))
21:29:46 <ehird> write game of life in it
21:30:29 <pgimeno> ehird: again, not possible without extra storage e.g. 2x2
21:30:35 <ehird> pgimeno: yeah and? :D
21:31:25 <ehird> pgimeno: here's how i imagine it working:
21:31:37 <ehird> since you have to traverse the WHOLE grid, have a checkerboard separated by a lot
21:31:41 <ehird> so that you can always walk the whole gri
21:31:51 <ehird> then, each actual square is 2x2 or so so that it stands out from the checkerboard
21:32:05 <ehird> and the head has to track the four neighbours and probably a few more stuff to carry around
21:32:08 <ehird> so I guess 4x4 or so
21:32:17 <ehird> so the gaps in the checkerboard have to fit a 4x4 head
21:34:24 <pgimeno> in my view, 2x2 is enought
21:35:03 <pgimeno> von Neumann machine would probably be far easier
21:35:44 <ehird> pgimeno: 2x2 head?
21:35:56 <ehird> you have to track the on/off state of -4 neighbouring cells- to calculate one cell
21:36:13 <ehird> pgimeno: and you still need a space for calculation, and an always-on head
21:36:20 <ehird> how do you propose to do that
21:37:00 <pgimeno> ehird: that's not a problem in my view, e.g. in Langton I use two cells for computation, not just one
21:37:05 <pgimeno> you can use as many as you need
21:37:34 <pgimeno> as long as you remember your actual head's position, that is
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21:37:58 <pgimeno> but still, life is too complicated (which is true in two senses)
21:38:18 <ehird> game of life is pretty trivial tbh
21:38:27 <ehird> just... not quite so in paintfuck
21:38:29 <ehird> it shouldn't be much harder than langton
21:38:36 <ehird> langton is 2 bits to store direction
21:38:43 <ehird> gol is 4 bits for neighbours
21:39:07 <pgimeno> in life you need to check each of 8 neighbours and count them, counting is not so easy in pf
21:39:33 <oklopol> that's just how you might implement it in a normal language.
21:40:08 <ehird> you could probably do like 2 bits
21:40:14 <ehird> and flip them to patterns for alive/dead on each hit
21:40:46 <oklopol> you can just have two cells per gol cell and do all the computation elsewhere on the board.
21:41:18 <oklopol> and even if you want to do everything in-place, 4 is enough
21:41:23 <ehird> do the calculation in the head
21:42:09 <oklopol> pgimeno: dunno if i have the time
21:42:15 <ehird> oklopol: you're never busy
21:42:19 <ehird> of course you have the time
21:42:30 <oklopol> anyway i'm pretty sure you can do it with just two cells per gol cell, without using any additional external memory.
21:42:31 <ehird> you just don't want to
21:42:56 <oklopol> i think the code size will get exponential then
21:43:34 <ehird> oklopol: you have to track the state of 8 things
21:43:38 <oklopol> why not just use the whole array for gol
21:43:57 <oklopol> those are on the map already
21:44:23 <ehird> you need to carry the 8 bits
21:44:27 <ehird> so you can count the number
21:44:28 <ehird> to calculat the new state
21:44:44 <oklopol> i can do it without calculating anything.
21:45:06 <oklopol> i can just do like i did in my 50000 line tode solution and explicitly list all the cases :)
21:45:31 <oklopol> basically using program state as the counter
21:45:49 <oklopol> it's not actually that much slower, assuming the code is parsed
21:46:07 <oklopol> well, probably the fastest way to do it
21:46:27 <ehird> oklopol: that's kind of cheating
21:46:27 <oklopol> but, i still need to solve the problem of changing the board on the fly.
21:46:44 <ehird> paintfuck can do it without that
21:46:50 <ehird> so i think it should be done "properly"
21:47:38 <oklopol> anyway size 4 cells are probably nicer if only for esthetics.
21:49:06 <oklopol> hmm... wonder how proper proper should be
21:49:21 <oklopol> maybe i should see what you can do with 4.
21:49:49 <oklopol> can someone link the swf or the exor
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21:50:43 <ehird> oklopol: willhostforfood.com/files3/7766096/pain.rar
21:50:51 <oklopol> i assumed i'd never touch it again so i removed it
21:51:00 <oklopol> but you peckers keep talking about it, so that's hardly possible
21:51:04 <oerjan> oklopol: for changing the board on the fly, use an extra line that moves and keeps a copy of the old state of one other line
21:51:37 <oklopol> oerjan: yes something like that might work.
21:51:39 <ehird> oklopol: paintfuck is pretty interesting you gotta admit
21:51:43 <ehird> compareed to some other new langs
21:52:03 <oklopol> it's okay. noprob would be more interesting if i managed to finish it
21:52:29 <pgimeno> Fredkin was the name, I didn't remember it O:) Fredkin should be easy to write in pf.
21:52:37 <oklopol> now i'm thinking removing probabilities and somehow trying to make linked lists out of variable dependencies... :)
21:53:10 <oklopol> ehird: what other new langs btw?
21:53:21 <ehird> oklopol: Esme!!ESMEESMESME!!!11
21:53:45 <oklopol> i don't remember what esme is, just that it was somehow stupid
21:53:58 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
21:55:06 <ehird> oklopol: i added that
21:55:13 <ehird> and the citation needed
21:55:33 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hashes
21:55:38 <ehird> A new lang of his (Slereah )
21:55:45 <oklopol> so i prolly don't know what that is because it doesn't say on the wiki.
21:55:57 <ehird> oklopol: that is all the description we have
21:55:58 * oerjan thought he added citation needed. or maybe that was for another language.
21:56:53 <ehird> i added it, you changed it
21:57:05 <oerjan> oh i just included the template
21:57:28 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esme&diff=next&oldid=12506
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21:59:33 <pgimeno> [ot] http://finitenature.com/interference/plugin/index.html <- nice java applet
22:00:13 <ehird> pgimeno: nothing is offtopic in #esoteric
22:01:57 <oerjan> hm trying to track that VeeBeeWiki mention leads to a nonexisting web page or something
22:03:30 <ehird> pgimeno: why wrong? :P
22:03:33 <ehird> oerjan: he made it up
22:05:57 <oerjan> http://wikiscrolls.org/
22:06:36 <ehird> veebeewiki = Visual Basic wiki
22:06:38 <oerjan> might be just a name collision :/
22:06:46 <ehird> most likely name collision
22:07:33 <ehird> not in web archive
22:08:03 <ehird> Wikiscrolls was merged with the Elderscrolls Wikia in March 2008
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22:08:35 <pgimeno> ehird: too many offtopics can make people abandon the chan, preferably the snr should be kept high
22:08:48 <oerjan> hm wait the Mad God actually mentions it elsewhere: http://www.frheritage.org.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?id=User_talk:Dagoth_Ur%2C_Mad_God&revision=23
22:09:30 <ehird> pgimeno: way past that stage
22:09:34 <oklopol> pgimeno: there are quite a lot of regulars here.
22:09:45 <ehird> most everyone here is a regular
22:09:50 <ehird> and the topics swerve wildly
22:10:04 <oklopol> but yeah everyone likes ontopic stuff, ofc
22:10:28 <oerjan> oklopol: not me! those esolangs are too damn hard.
22:10:53 <oerjan> i come here only for the sex talk.
22:11:06 <ehird> oerjan: on that site... jesus christ
22:11:12 <Asztal> I come here because I'm lonely ;_;
22:11:16 <ehird> he comes to someone else's wiki, shits over it, and asks for adminship to shit over it more
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22:22:54 <oerjan> ah he was banned from Elderscrolls
22:23:49 <ehird> somehow i am unsurprised
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22:31:01 <ehird> pgimeno: darn, i have a faster copier but it mangles the ceiling and floor
22:31:06 <ehird> and i'm not sure how to make it detect it
22:31:11 <ehird> to go onto the next line
22:38:20 <jayCampbell> i had to put a bunch of NOPs in hello.b to make it overlap
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22:39:48 <jayCampbell> so yeah, weave has a shared tape plus a tape per thread
22:40:55 <jayCampbell> i think it's more functional than brainfork, and it was unimplemente
22:44:31 <ehird> i golfed my checkerboarder:
22:50:21 <ehird> really short chequerboard
22:50:34 <Asztal> Have you considered using <canvas> for this javascript one?
22:52:27 <ehird> Asztal: oh good idea
22:52:38 <ehird> jayCampbell: but that's exactly the same :P
22:53:06 <ehird> jayCampbell: no i knew
22:53:58 <ehird> pgimeno: <canvas> google it :P
22:54:05 <Asztal> pgimeno: well, I was thinking that it would save you having a 64x64 <table>. Surely that can't be great for performance :)
22:54:16 <ehird> yeah it also sucks for larger sizes
22:54:28 <ehird> jayCampbell: that is also the same.
22:55:03 <Asztal> also (in Firefox, at least) you can copy the image to the clipboard as a data:url, which would be cool :D
22:55:23 <pgimeno> Asztal: I'm sure, I just haven't heard of canvas before
22:55:36 <ehird> pgimeno: gooooooogle
22:55:45 <ehird> pgimeno: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Canvas_tutorial
22:55:51 <ehird> & https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Drawing_Graphics_with_Canvas
22:56:02 <ehird> its non-standard but supported by just about everything that isn't IE
22:56:14 <ehird> Most of this content (but not the documentation on drawWindow) has been rolled into the more expansive Canvas tutorial, this page should probably be redirected there as it's now redundant.
22:56:17 <ehird> disregard the second link
22:57:02 <ehird> pgimeno: mozilla + opera + safari
22:57:08 <ehird> and it's in the upcoming HTML5 spec
22:57:16 <ehird> so, um, as cross-platform as it matters
22:57:24 <ehird> only the insane people here (like oklopol and oerjan) use IE :P
22:57:27 <ehird> jayCampbell: occasionally
22:58:06 <ehird> he only comes every now and then
22:58:32 <jayCampbell> like can we ditch the '!' separator since there's already ';' and '!' means bf-input these days
22:58:44 <oerjan> busy expanding his cake religion, i assume
23:00:32 <oklopol> because firefox is now the default
23:01:43 <oklopol> i'm almost thinking i should've debugged the gol during coding... :P
23:01:56 <oklopol> and i'm pretty sure there are about 30 errors :P
23:02:22 <Asztal> there's a firefox addon for doing 3D stuff with <canvas> and openGL... so I made fractals with it. Maybe I should have made a piet interpreter on the GPU.
23:02:38 <ehird> oklopol: does it look pretty?
23:02:42 <ehird> i.e. can you make out the grid
23:03:07 <oklopol> it stores current and previous row now.
23:03:14 <oklopol> so it could be prettier i guess.
23:03:50 <oklopol> mind you i don't know what it looks like, i haven't run it once :D
23:03:55 <ehird> you can still see the whole grid
23:04:14 <ehird> oklopol: the GoL 2d grid
23:04:19 <ehird> you can still see all of it right
23:04:28 <oklopol> wellllllll, the grid is made of 2x2 squares
23:04:42 <ehird> is the noise from the processing enough to make it hard to see?
23:04:48 <oklopol> and the top right is the current val, bottom left is the last one
23:05:04 <oklopol> i don't know :) but there's only noise at the current spot.
23:05:33 <ehird> oklopol: how long until it works :P
23:06:03 <oklopol> i've currently counter the neighbors
23:06:48 <oklopol> now i just need to store the negations of the counter's contents, and do a few if's
23:07:43 <oklopol> this is all pretty trivial really, it's just, well, it either works or not, i don't have a step-by-stepper :)
23:07:57 <oklopol> (i know one exists, but that's only a last resort)
23:08:00 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
23:16:03 <pgimeno> that canvas thing looks promising, I guess that the getElementById thing is quite time consuming in this program
23:18:10 <Asztal> if you don't use canvas, you should at least cache the getElementById calls.
23:19:52 <jayCampbell> hm, with a couple lines i could put brainfork's forker into weaver
23:32:58 <oklopol> there weren't 30 errors, there were 3
23:33:16 <oklopol> unless you count the one that was in all the copypaste.... then it was more like 20 :D
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23:44:49 <ehird> how goes the game of lief
23:44:54 <ehird> is it ready for release
23:47:31 <oklopol> which is kinda stupid concerning how long i've been on it
23:47:57 <ehird> oklopol: then will you do pong
23:48:08 <oklopol> can't promise you can see the actual evolution from this... but that's probably not that important...... :D
23:48:21 <ehird> oklopol: can you watch a glider?
23:48:23 <oklopol> the problem is the last round's valuez
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23:59:55 <ehird> oklopol: IS IT DONE