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00:08:42 <ehird> pgimeno: i'm gonna make a counter that outputs in binary
00:10:03 <ehird> which is kinda hard.
00:11:32 <pgimeno> ehird: do you mean dec-to-bin?
00:12:09 <ehird> a counter that goes like this
00:12:12 <ehird> ....................
00:12:14 <ehird> ...................*
00:12:17 <ehird> ..................*.
00:12:18 <ehird> ..................**
00:12:22 <ehird> .................*..
00:12:24 <ehird> .................*.*
00:12:27 <ehird> .................**.
00:12:28 <ehird> .................***
00:12:39 <ehird> isn't that already done?
00:12:50 <pgimeno> it is but you can try for yourself
00:13:09 <pgimeno> that's why I asked if you were going to implement a dec-to-bin
00:16:21 <pgimeno> it would be funny to see division&remainder code...
00:16:43 <pgimeno> actually just multiply-by-ten
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00:18:18 <pgimeno> anyway, I might either implement Fredkin's automaton or just give up on
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00:20:02 <oklopol> yeah maybe someone should make underpaint next.
00:20:13 <ehird> pgimeno: why? :( it's fun
00:20:35 <pgimeno> ehird: it takes too many resources
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00:21:15 <pgimeno> I mean in brain CPU %, not in computer CPU %
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01:27:42 <jayCampbell> have a kitchen sink i can cram into this thing?
01:35:02 <oklopol> you can't have a sink without a source
01:35:08 <oklopol> except if it's a circulation
01:35:17 <oklopol> but even then it's not satisfiable
01:35:40 <oklopol> hehe, ackermann as type templates as a c++ exercise
01:36:45 <oklopol> wait, no it's not that, i'm dissappointed :<
01:37:51 <MizardX> C++ templates have a limited stack depth. Was it 7, 17, 27 or 127...? I can't remember.
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01:39:09 <MizardX> But if you implement your own stack with e.g. a linked list, you could stay within the stack limit.
01:39:11 <oklopol> i'd go with 16, but anyway
01:39:28 <oklopol> (if it was 16, i would probably remember it, though)
01:39:39 <oklopol> yes, sure, but that's so cheating
01:40:17 <Asztal> Yeah, I think it's 17, but nobody actually enforces it, it's usually much higher.
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01:47:25 <Asztal> although in C++'s case, things are already difficult enough for implementors :)
01:48:07 <oklopol> MizardX: i definitely do not like any kinds of exceptions.
01:48:15 <oklopol> exceptions are exceptional, i only case about the general
01:48:38 <oklopol> (there are exceptions to that, but oerjan would probably emerge from somewhere and make a pun)
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02:43:21 <GregorR> strcpy works perfectly. Except when it's run by nethack, which magically makes it not work.
02:46:27 <Asztal> what does it do instead?
02:47:21 <GregorR> With random chunks of the strings fegged up.
03:36:48 <jayCampbell> certain programs could monitor certain spots
03:36:59 <jayCampbell> analogous to /etc/service port assignments
03:37:28 <jayCampbell> so any other thread could load subroutines on deman
03:37:50 <jayCampbell> nobody wants this, why am i compelled to connect this to an irc bot?
04:04:56 <GregorR> Aha! Figured out the problem with strcpy on nethack!
04:05:06 <GregorR> Now I just need to figure out the solution X-P
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04:23:09 <GregorR> Shall I pick a character's racÿ, role, genþer and aliîmet foz(yoÿ [ÿnq]þ
04:23:12 <GregorR> Well that's just not right.
04:26:39 <Asztal> ÿþîÿÿþ are all close to 255 (in unicode, anyway)
04:27:14 <Asztal> not to mention, how did alignment lose a character?
04:40:39 <GregorR> What's even stranger is that neither that string nor the (presumable) original string appear anywhere in the nethack dir D-8
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05:03:00 <GregorR> Note to self: MIPS' swl and swr instructions are SO EFFING CONFUSING
05:28:25 <GregorR> DAMN YOU MIPS UNALIGNED MEMORY ACCESS INSTRUCTIONS
05:40:08 <GregorR> Nethack writes out its data in the host's endian format X_X
05:40:16 <GregorR> Erm, the COMPILING host that is.
05:40:20 <GregorR> I have to compile this on a big-endian machine.
05:48:34 <Asztal> time to get gcc working on mips :D
05:50:55 * GregorR is debootstrapping a mips system now 8-D
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07:38:55 <oerjan> oklopol: generally speaking exceptions are exceptional, except in exceptional cases where the general case does not hold
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08:13:11 <jayCampbell> did the world even know it needed a brainfuck with embedded ruby interpreter?
08:14:15 <jayCampbell> debug breakpoint dumps are soooo last century
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08:23:06 <jayCampbell> >+++++++++++++++++++++++ # ruby print "hi "
08:23:06 <jayCampbell> ++++++++++++++++++++++++ # ruby print "there\n"
08:23:06 <jayCampbell> ++++++++++++++++++++++++< # ruby7 puts "tape size: #{thread[:tape].size}"
08:24:30 <jayCampbell> in all seriousness, please, someone stop me
08:39:14 * oklopol realizes he's already taken the best courses @ uni, will be a downslope in funnity from this point on :<
08:40:41 <oklopol> hmm right, there's math department...
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10:45:49 <MizardX> oklopol: Me too. Sad feeling.
11:23:22 <Slereah_> I get quantum electrodynamic next year :D
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12:08:02 <MizardX> Slereah_: You'll get there...
12:09:10 <Slereah_> I mean, I don't really have classes after next year.
12:09:17 <Slereah_> After that it's my thesis and shit
12:21:32 <warrie> I don't want to study anything in particular at college.
12:24:05 <warrie> The stereotypical make-a-lot-of-money profession seems to be a lawyer.
12:27:33 <Slereah_> Can you be a lawyer with a degree in nothing-in-particular?
12:30:25 <warrie> You go to college, get a degree in nothing-in-particular, and take that to law school.
12:31:27 <Slereah_> Oh, so you need a degree for a degree?
12:31:50 <Slereah_> I'm glad I'm getting physics :o
12:31:54 <warrie> Something like that, yeah.
12:32:08 <warrie> Did you even look at law or medicine?
12:32:29 <Slereah_> I wanted to do that shit since I was 9!
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13:12:07 <pgimeno> GregorR: so your cross-compiler doesn't deal with big-endianess? that's weird
13:12:25 <GregorR> pgimeno: Nononono, that's not the problem at all.
13:12:45 <pgimeno> oh, that's what I understood
13:12:53 <GregorR> pgimeno: The problem is that it generates data files using a program for the compiling system.
13:13:16 <pgimeno> oh, so you need to generate the data files in the emulator, right?
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14:10:04 <oklopol> Slereah_: I wanted to do that shit since I was 9! <<< i decided i wanted to be a programmer when i was 5
14:10:40 <oklopol> although i guess i've slowly inclined towards math / theoretical algorithmics since, but probably only because i didn't know much about things back then.
14:27:11 <MizardX> I think I got interested in programming around 7-8 years old. A friend showed some graphics in QBasic. Could have been earlier, but I don't remember much from that time.
14:43:47 <ehird> Around 8 for me I think, maybe a little earlier or later.
14:43:51 <ehird> I got my first computer at 3. :-P
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14:46:55 <ehird> fucking tab complete
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16:15:25 <ehird> most newbz don't come here, is he a newb?
16:15:33 <ehird> i see no User:Mattwescott
16:15:35 <ehird> on the esolang wiki
16:16:15 <pgimeno> ehird: I saw it on Special:Recentchanges
16:16:31 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges I don't.
16:16:44 <pgimeno> err, misspelled: User:Mattwestcott
16:16:57 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nil a joke language. neat.
16:17:50 <pgimeno> just too easy the humour, but the interpreter is a bit more elaborate than that
16:18:24 <ehird> umm, true(1) is not very elaborate
16:18:31 <ehird> unless you mean GNU true :-P
16:18:49 <pgimeno> no, I mean the JS interpreter
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18:26:19 <AnMaster> cc1: out of memory allocating 33554432 bytes after a total of 20123648 bytes
18:26:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what were you doing?
18:27:00 <ais523> to make gcc run out of memory so dramatically?
18:27:04 <AnMaster> ais523, trying to compile lost kingdom
18:27:14 <AnMaster> since I do the "turn into polynom" bit now
18:27:20 <AnMaster> ( ulimit -v $((1024 * 800)); gcc -O0 -o LostKng LostKng.c; )
18:27:20 <AnMaster> cc1: out of memory allocating 134217728 bytes after a total of 20148224 bytes
18:27:35 <AnMaster> maybe splitting it into multiple methods would work
18:27:53 <AnMaster> but that would be tricky due to loops and such
18:27:54 <ais523> AnMaster: do the same trick I did for OIL, split the function into separate functions in separate source files, then compile them separately
18:28:15 <ais523> I learnt that tip from the Debian developers who were trying to port C-INTERCAL, apparently it's happened to them before on other projects
18:28:18 <GregorR> I fixed the problem referred to in the topic btw :P
18:28:31 <AnMaster> ais523, not easy since it would most of the time need to split across two different while loops
18:28:40 <ais523> AnMaster: split the loop into a separate function
18:28:48 <ais523> and have it called by the other one
18:28:51 <AnMaster> ais523, need to know how big it is
18:28:56 <AnMaster> which I don't most of the time
18:29:01 <ais523> AnMaster: good thing computers are good at counting, then
18:29:15 <ais523> you're generating the code, no reason you can't count lines in your generated code
18:29:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah need to run O(n) search on every tree or something
18:29:31 <ais523> AnMaster: that's in the compile, it's O(n), do you really care?
18:29:45 <ais523> or are you trying to make the compiler insanely fast too
18:29:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is currently rather fast
18:30:06 <GregorR> Actually, that would be O(n^2) as there are O(n) many nodes, each of which may contain O(n) many nodes.
18:30:26 <GregorR> (Assuming you have to do the search for O(n) many nodes)
18:30:26 <ais523> GregorR: no, just maintain a stack of subtotals and you can do it in one pass
18:30:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, each [ cause a subtree
18:30:45 <AnMaster> that is the internal format at that point
18:30:48 <ais523> you can use the totals for the lower levels when calculating the totals from the upper levels
18:30:51 <GregorR> ais523: But doing it the stupid naïve way is more fun D-8
18:31:23 <AnMaster> I guess that I could create some kind of weight count in a pass after the optimizer
18:31:39 <AnMaster> and add yet another field to the nodes
18:31:56 <ais523> AnMaster: you're saying this as if it's a bad thing
18:32:12 <AnMaster> ais523, since each node is 88 bytes on x86_64 it isn't totally small
18:32:19 <AnMaster> I do use union tricks and so on already yes
18:32:43 <AnMaster> ais523, why would I need loop specific data for > or > specific data for loops?
18:32:43 <ais523> extreme memory optimisation in the compiler isn't going to gain you anything in execution speed
18:32:58 <AnMaster> ais523, true, I just don't want to run out in the compiler either
18:32:59 <ais523> AnMaster: you don't, not using union tricks therefore makes it easier to debug
18:33:18 <ais523> AnMaster: your compiler's already more memory-efficient than gcc
18:33:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't had any such bugs yet at least.
18:33:24 <ais523> therefore making it more memory-efficient is irrelevant
18:33:35 <ais523> as you're going to be using more memory later in the process anyway
18:34:06 <AnMaster> ais523, true, but the issue is that likely the libc won't give the now freed ram back
18:34:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it will when the program ends!
18:34:32 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I can system() to invoke cc, like ick does
18:36:29 <AnMaster> also I need to add a generic reorder pass that can move stuff around, current code can only do that in simple balanced loops
18:36:46 <AnMaster> how does one turn this into a polynomial:
18:37:11 <AnMaster> my current code only handles a +1/-1 atm
18:37:14 <ais523> AnMaster: if it's even, that's +1.5x. If it's odd, infinite loop
18:37:26 <ais523> you need to condition on each possible value of the input modulo the number of -s
18:37:52 <AnMaster> easier said than done with current design
18:38:05 <AnMaster> I wouldn't be surprised if gcc was cleaner than this
18:38:14 <AnMaster> on the other hand I never coded anything like this before
18:38:25 <oerjan> usually only one value will _not_ be an infinite loop, i think...
18:38:51 <AnMaster> ais523, consider: +++[>+++<--]
18:38:56 <ais523> oerjan: no, it's just evenness/divisibility by 4/divisibility by 8, etc
18:39:09 <ais523> as 256 is a power of 2
18:39:14 <ais523> AnMaster: that will wrap forevor
18:39:19 <oerjan> ais523: one modulus value, i mean
18:39:43 <ais523> oerjan: if the modulus is odd, then it'll wrap n times and then finish
18:39:53 <ais523> due to odd numbers not dividing into 256
18:40:02 <fungot> AnMaster: not at all, don't let the bed bugs byte)." what kinda procedure could that be because of extensions too.
18:40:08 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:40:44 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:40:48 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:41:06 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe you got it to ouptut a space
18:41:14 <ais523> who knows, you might have hit exactly the right number of +
18:41:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I tried with two values
18:41:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ^bf +++[>+++<--] ++++++.
18:41:27 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:41:32 <oerjan> ais523: odd modulus is thus uninteresting
18:41:38 <ais523> AnMaster: the first one is an infiniloop
18:41:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and the two last ones?
18:42:54 <AnMaster> ais523, in any case this should really be done with something like oil for bf, it is a pain to write it in C
18:43:14 <AnMaster> also nested loops mess it up a lot
18:43:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: the Brainfuck Constants page on the wiki contains many examples of such loops
18:43:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes nested loops are important I know
18:43:59 <AnMaster> the issue is, they don't yet work
18:44:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i wasn't responding to your comment
18:44:17 <AnMaster> for example if the nested loop change the index, not very easy to detect always
18:44:32 <oerjan> i was speaking about the loops you tested above
18:45:09 <oerjan> [>+++etc<---etc] loops
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18:46:29 <oerjan> i imagine unbalanced loops are almost impossible to optimize unless you have meta-information about memory contents
18:47:10 <ais523> oerjan: yes, I have a crazy plan to deduce the meta-information
18:55:15 <oklopol> so, anyone here know a nice program for composing stuff?
18:55:33 <oklopol> i've used guitar pro, but it's total crap so was just thinking
18:55:33 <ais523> oklopol: you mean like music?
18:55:45 <oklopol> someone invite lament here
18:56:02 <oklopol> i'll try his pm, he'll be sooooo surprised
18:56:29 <ais523> oklopol: I've used Rosegarden, it's pretty good for writing down tunes you've composed elsewhere
18:56:36 <ais523> which is what I normally do
18:57:45 <oerjan> lament is on freenode but not on this channel? did we scare him away? :(
18:58:14 <oerjan> oklopol: obviously we cannot promise you that
18:58:15 <oklopol> what i'd really like is a sensible electric guitar sound for this project.
18:59:00 <AnMaster> ais523, mandelbrot is down to 7.3 seconds
18:59:11 <AnMaster> there is of course a lot more that could be done
18:59:31 <oklopol> oerjan: he's always on freenode, but rarely here
19:00:32 <oklopol> guitar pro has a pretty cool bug if you try adding a ninth track, pans of tracks 8 and 9 can't be made different :D
19:00:51 <oklopol> i really can't imagine how there could be a bug that only appears on a certain track
19:01:15 <AnMaster> if not: no clue, if yes, look at the source
19:01:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> oklopol: I've used Rosegarden, it's pretty good for writing down tunes you've composed elsewhere
19:01:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> which is what I normally do
19:03:01 <oklopol> um, look at the source why exactly?
19:03:03 <AnMaster> hm considering the name contains "pro" it is probably *not* open source
19:03:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, of the program with the bug
19:31:35 <pikhq> jayCampbell: No, but I've been tempted to write one from time to time...
19:31:47 <pikhq> (Def-BF would actually work *well* for that...)
19:33:36 <pikhq> Don't happen to have the details handy...
19:33:43 <pikhq> One could ask RodgerTheGreat for it.
19:34:52 <jayCampbell> wanna help write brainfucklets that interact?
19:38:05 <jayCampbell> basically comes down to deciding what functions map to what cell addresses or EsoAPI slot
19:39:38 * oerjan thinks that sounds like something that would be illegal in most countries
19:39:54 <pikhq> Def-BF != EsoAPI or PSOX or whatever you're wanting to do...
19:40:11 <pikhq> Def-BF is basically Brainfuck + labels & jump.
19:40:27 <Sgeo> jayCampbell, EsoAPI is dead. Long live PSOX, which is dead!
19:40:49 <pikhq> Which matches *very* cleanly to assembly, and makes for a really nice systems programming language.
19:41:07 <jayCampbell> psox i couldn't find a speck of info about either
19:41:29 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
19:41:43 <ehird> jayCampbell: ignore Sgeo
19:41:46 <ehird> PSOX is his vaporware
19:41:48 <Sgeo> And if you need more info than what you can find in http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk , ask me
19:41:48 <ehird> and is awfully dseigned
19:41:51 <ehird> although esoapi is awful too
19:41:53 <Sgeo> ehird, it's NOT vaporware
19:41:54 <ehird> http://lwn.net/Articles/104185/
19:42:00 <ehird> Sgeo: just keep telling yourself that
19:42:17 <Sgeo> ehird, if you want me to finish it up and call it a beta, I'll do that
19:42:29 <ehird> Sgeo: no, I'd rather you never mentioned it again
19:42:31 <ehird> lest I commit suicide :D
19:42:33 <Sgeo> jayCampbell, http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec
19:42:41 <ehird> jayCampbell: turn back
19:42:41 <Sgeo> ehird, jayCampbell's the one asking about it
19:42:44 <ehird> turn back while you still have your insanity
19:42:56 <pikhq> ehird: I'd hesitate to call PSOX vaporware...
19:43:03 <pikhq> Sgeo *did* actually get it implemented.
19:43:05 <ehird> pikhq: ok, more like HORRORWARE
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19:43:44 <pikhq> Though it wasn't necessarily *bad* for the most part; just poor choices on some details, really.
19:43:52 <ehird> pikhq: details such as EVERYTHING
19:43:54 <pikhq> Not bad for a hack.
19:44:05 <pikhq> Sgeo: The type system, IMHO.
19:44:13 <nooga> wtf is that scanf("%s") returns "" after scanf("%c")
19:44:20 <ehird> Sgeo: DON'T FORGET SAFETY
19:44:45 <Sgeo> ehird, safety's kind of dead, thanks to you
19:44:56 <Sgeo> Well, deader than PSOX itself, at any rate
19:46:20 <ehird> psox is more awful than impossible
19:46:22 <jayCampbell> it's a little more .. robust than i expected
19:58:04 <oerjan> nooga: what text are you trying to read?
20:21:44 <ehird> http://blog.wolfram.com/2008/12/01/the-incredible-convenience-of-mathematica-image-processing/ wish there was like a mathematica thta didn't suck
20:32:07 <ehird> oklopol thinks its neat, wow
20:32:08 <ehird> it must be really neat
20:32:17 <ehird> i saw a smalltalk in JS before
20:32:21 <ehird> vista smalltalk it was called iirc
20:32:26 <ehird> had a lisp-based syntax for core stuff
20:32:40 <oklopol> ehird: what's sucky about that?
20:32:51 <ehird> just mathematica in general?
20:32:56 <ehird> ask ais523, I've heard horror stories from him
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20:33:34 <oklopol> oh, you didn't meant that looked absolutely horrible?
20:33:51 <ehird> i just meant i wish there was a system with stuff that awesome
20:33:53 <jayCampbell> here's the js one: http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~awarth/ometa/ometa-js/
20:33:54 <ehird> that wasn't as sucky as mathemtaica
20:33:57 <ehird> jayCampbell: no, not ometa
20:34:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vista_Smalltalk huh, it's just for IE7
20:34:16 <oklopol> i mean, i'd probably want the graphs and the pictures to be much smaller, but i'm sure that's possible.
20:34:33 <oklopol> yeah i know it sucks too, heard the same horror stories.
20:34:52 <oklopol> but that looked pretty neat, in fact looks like something i might scrap python for.
20:35:03 <ehird> yeah, that totally fits how I program
20:35:09 <ehird> I just get data and play with it and shove it into other data
20:35:23 * ehird is tempted to write a mathematica minus the stuck now but realises it's probably not easy :P
20:35:49 <ehird> [[Request a Free Trial »
20:35:50 <ehird> Send us your request and you can experience Mathematica yourself with a fully functional 15-day license.]]
20:35:53 <ehird> i hate how you have to manually contact them
20:37:21 <Sgeo> mmm, trial licenses in a VM..
20:37:35 <ehird> Sgeo: also known as bittorrent?
20:37:48 <ehird> also, you can't even get a trial license without someone manually respondign to your request
20:38:09 <Sgeo> ehird, I was talking in general. Wouldn't work for Mathematica, due to that contact stuff
20:38:18 <ehird> Sgeo: well... bittorrent
20:38:58 <Sgeo> I wouldn't want to run anything that might even have a risk of malware outside a VM, and if I'm going to be running it in a VM anyway, why even bother with BitTorrent?
20:39:15 <ehird> Sgeo: Malware? Ah, you must be a windows user!
20:39:21 <ehird> And use public trackers.
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20:45:44 <ehird> jayCampbell: that smalltalk seems a bit castrated
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20:45:48 <ehird> it seems to have a lot of primitives
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23:01:15 <warrie> I've decided that a Turing machine's initial state must be the output of a push-down automaton.
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23:13:09 <jayCampbell> this is awesome http://jarrett.cs.ucla.edu/ometa-js/
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23:46:38 <lament> i should stop listening to non-solo-piano music.
23:46:56 <lament> cause when i do, there's a risk that i will want to play it
23:47:14 <lament> and that would involve arranging it, which is not always feasible
23:55:19 <warrie> What broken LZW algorithm produced that topic?
23:57:40 <warrie> I want a flash-card-like program that plays notes and asks me to identify them.
23:59:01 <lament> i almost wrote that once
23:59:10 <lament> you think you have absolute pitch?
23:59:31 <Sgeo> <3 Time-loop logic