←2008-12-29 2008-12-30 2008-12-31→ ↑2008 ↑all
00:00:41 <oerjan> happiness is mandatory
00:02:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, :)
00:03:47 * oerjan wonders if AnMaster got the reference
00:04:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, no
00:04:09 <AnMaster> what reference?
00:04:48 <oerjan> it's from the Paranoia roleplaying game. if you're not happy, you're terminated.
00:05:04 <ehird> oerjan: murphy just advertised his ParaNomic XP game.
00:05:11 <ehird> nice coincidence :^)
00:05:53 * oerjan envisions color-coded rules
00:06:07 <ehird> http://asynchronous.org/paranomic-xp/index.php?title=Main_Page & http://groups.google.com/group/paranomic-xp
00:08:01 <oerjan> finally spammers get the proper treatment
00:08:47 -!- GregorR has joined.
00:09:01 <GregorR> xchat crashed again! I can barely believe it!
00:09:09 <GregorR> http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/frosclearlen.html or http://safetyglassesusa.com/19742.html
00:10:21 <ehird> http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/999999.html
00:20:58 <olopolo> genres are a stupid
00:21:01 <olopolo> also morning
00:24:55 <ehird> evening
00:25:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:36:16 <olopolo> finally
00:36:20 <olopolo> logs have been read
00:36:43 <ehird> lol
00:37:19 <ehird> olopolo: Furthermore,
00:37:19 <olopolo> how insensitive.
00:38:03 <olopolo> Furthermore,?
00:38:20 <olopolo> oh.
00:38:21 <ehird> yes.
00:38:23 <ehird> Furthermore,.
00:38:25 <olopolo> well bye
00:39:38 <ehird> olopolo: what
00:39:49 <olopolo> what.
00:40:02 <ehird> olopolo: what
00:40:04 <olopolo> j is so awesome
00:40:18 <ehird> k
00:40:30 <olopolo> understanding short code snippets is always an adventure
01:06:12 -!- devo has joined.
01:06:13 -!- devo has left (?).
01:19:35 <psygnisfive> so
01:19:59 <psygnisfive> my little honors thesis project basically involves a graph rewriting component
01:20:32 <psygnisfive> which i suppose means that, since graph rewriting languages are equivalent to turing machines
01:20:44 <psygnisfive> that my little model of language has the potential to be turing complete
01:20:45 <psygnisfive> :O
01:45:53 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:46:03 <GregorR> !help
01:46:13 <GregorR> Promising.
01:46:31 <GregorR> ... it received it ...
01:46:35 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:51:14 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:51:18 <GregorR> !help
01:51:45 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:53:29 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:53:37 <GregorR> !help
01:53:45 <GregorR> OH COME ON
01:53:46 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:53:51 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
01:54:09 <GregorR> Oh ... hm, now it's trying to spam blank lines 8-D
01:54:15 <GregorR> !raw QUIT
01:54:29 <olopolo> psygnisfive: col
01:54:35 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:55:28 -!- olopolo has changed nick to oklopol.
01:55:28 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:06:47 <psygnisfive> col?
02:08:32 <oklopol> it's a lazy cool
02:08:41 <psygnisfive> i see
02:09:33 <Warrigal> The oklopol alphabet: bdhklopq
02:09:51 <oklopol> h isn't really my type
02:10:08 <Warrigal> oblodohokloloplol
02:10:25 <oklopol> "pl" isn't right
02:11:08 <oklopol> bl is a bit iffy too
02:11:16 <psygnisfive> i wonder if we could do some statistics on oklopols various names to see if theres some general trends beyond only using o as a vowel
02:11:39 <psygnisfive> lets see
02:11:43 <oklopol> doo it
02:11:52 <psygnisfive> oklopol oklofok olopolo
02:11:59 <psygnisfive> what else
02:12:12 <Warrigal> Clearly, we should only use certain digraphs.
02:12:28 <Warrigal> Initial and final letters count as digraphs. You're not allowed to start with anything but o.
02:12:51 <psygnisfive> oklopol what else have you used
02:13:16 <oklopol> umm.
02:13:20 <oklopol> a lot of stuff.
02:13:32 <psygnisfive> tell me!
02:13:45 <oklopol> oklokok is #3, probably
02:13:54 <psygnisfive> oklokok is whats between your legs
02:14:04 <psygnisfive> but ok
02:14:10 <Warrigal> oklopolofoko
02:14:20 <psygnisfive> oklopol oklofok olopolo oklokok
02:14:24 <Warrigal> lol
02:14:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i don't see your point
02:14:36 <oklopol> yes, that's the etymology
02:15:07 <Warrigal> I want to make a random oklopol generator.
02:15:26 <psygnisfive> so the regex so far is /olopolo|(oklo(pol|fok|kok))/
02:15:48 <psygnisfive> we might expect that this generalizes to /olopolo|(oklo(p|f|k)o(l|k))/
02:15:57 <Warrigal> You're not going to make a regex that recognizes anything containing only those digraphs?
02:16:07 <Warrigal> I did that once for the name "GreenReaper". The resulting regex was very long.
02:16:22 <psygnisfive> suggesting that you could also use oklopok, oklofol, oklokol, oklopok
02:16:36 <oklopol> i could.
02:16:43 <psygnisfive> warrigal: what digraphs?
02:16:45 <Warrigal> On "oklopol" only: /o(klo|po)*l/
02:16:46 <oklopol> and i think i have, at least a few of them
02:16:59 <Warrigal> psygnisfive: the digraphs in "oklopol" and "oklofok" and "olopolo" and "oklokok".
02:17:33 <psygnisfive> you mean ok lo po ko and fo?
02:18:14 <psygnisfive> we have no evidence for the oklo name language being more general than that, warrigal
02:18:29 <Warrigal> No, ok, kl, lo, op, po, ol, of, fo, ko, as well as initial o and final l, k, and o.
02:18:31 <psygnisfive> we just have olopolo, oklopol, oklofok, and oklokok
02:19:29 <psygnisfive> oklopol says might have also used some of oklopok, oklofol, oklokol
02:19:45 <oklopol> "fof" wouldn't really belong in the family
02:19:47 -!- oklopol has changed nick to fof.
02:19:51 <fof> but it's pretty cute.
02:19:54 <fof> :-)
02:20:07 <psygnisfive> so like i said it seems we might be able to generalize to /olopolo|(oklo(p|f|k)o(l|k))/
02:20:28 <fof> oklopoll was my secondary nick at some point
02:20:36 <psygnisfive> with two l's?
02:20:45 <fof> yess
02:20:47 <psygnisfive> well thats an orthographic variant of l, lets say
02:21:08 <fof> i've also been oklodol and oklodok
02:21:12 <fof> maybe even oklodoll :D
02:21:24 <fof> hmm
02:21:25 <psygnisfive> ok: /olopolo|(oklo(d|p|f|k)o(ll?|k))/
02:21:34 <fof> variantness would account for doll nicely too
02:22:15 <Warrigal> fof: well, ofofofofo would fit.
02:22:27 <Warrigal> Secondary stress on the first syllable, primary stress on the penultimate.
02:22:32 <fof> hey cool. i should make like a mirc script on that info
02:22:46 <psygnisfive> warrigal: it would fit what?
02:22:49 <fof> Warrigal: where do you get that?
02:22:51 <psygnisfive> your imagined digraph patterns?
02:22:59 <psygnisfive> none of his names display that pattern.
02:23:12 <psygnisfive> all of them except olopolo have oklo- prefix
02:23:14 <fof> all my nicks have primary stress on the first syllable
02:23:44 <psygnisfive> methinks warrigal is silly
02:23:57 <fof> well, that's just how he is
02:24:34 -!- fof has changed nick to oklodol.
02:24:38 <Warrigal> !
02:24:52 <Warrigal> Now you have That Letter NetHack Uses To Represent Canines.
02:25:04 <Warrigal> Actually, all canids, I think. Foxes are d, aren't they?
02:25:05 <oklodol> this is a rather gay nick
02:25:10 <oklodol> but i like it :|
02:25:23 <oklodol> i would probably use it a lot if it wasn't so gay
02:25:30 <psygnisfive> oklodol looks like a pill women take to prevent bloating
02:25:32 <oklodol> Warrigal: i don't play
02:25:37 <psygnisfive> midol, and its sister drug, oklodol
02:25:43 <oklodol> hehe
02:25:44 <Warrigal> I wonder what makes a nick gay.
02:25:48 <psygnisfive> oklodoll is cuter
02:25:50 <psygnisfive> and defiitely gayer
02:25:56 <psygnisfive> much more suited to you, oklo.
02:26:18 <oklodol> i think dol is a cuter suffix
02:26:23 <Warrigal> Does "gay" mean "embarrasing or perceived to be perverted" or something?
02:26:27 <psygnisfive> no
02:26:29 <psygnisfive> it means homosexual.
02:26:35 <psygnisfive> as in, "oklo-ish"
02:26:44 <psygnisfive> even tho hes oklosexual.
02:26:47 <oklodol> Warrigal: you don't know what gay means? :D
02:27:36 <Warrigal> I don't think you meant "This nick kind of likes to have sex with other nicks of the same gender".
02:27:53 <psygnisfive> ofcourse thats what he meant
02:27:59 <oklodol> 6!:2 '(6!:3) 3'
02:27:59 <oklodol> 3.03061
02:28:03 * oklodol giggles
02:28:11 <psygnisfive> what? lol
02:28:23 <oklodol> yeah it's pretty funny :D
02:28:37 <Asztal> J?
02:28:45 <oklodol> yes, i hope you don't know it
02:28:50 <oklodol> because that sure as hell was not funny.
02:29:03 <Warrigal> How gay would the nick "Warridal" be, then?
02:29:13 <oklodol> less so?
02:29:20 <Warrigal> Less than "oklodol"?
02:29:21 <oklodol> i mean you're a warry gal
02:29:29 <oklodol> "kitty can scratch"
02:29:45 <Warrigal> I hope nobody interprets the "gal" at the end as meaning I'm female. :-P
02:30:07 <Warrigal> Maybe I should emphasise the pronunciation by changing it to "Warrigle" or something, even though it would no longer be spelled right.
02:30:08 <oklodol> for the purposes of assessing gayness they might
02:30:33 <Warrigal> That "a" is just about silent, even.
02:30:38 <oklodol> how about WarryGal
02:30:52 <oklodol> yes, i know what pronunciation you're going for
02:31:11 <oklodol> don't assume i don't know everything, it's demeaning
02:31:29 <Warrigal> Sorry, but aren't I supposed to be the all-knowing one in this conversation?
02:31:53 <Warrigal> I find it most very offensive when you pretend I make mistakes.
02:32:33 <oklodol> i find it most offensive you're offended by your mom
02:32:46 <Warrigal> You're like Hitler.
02:32:49 <Warrigal> Glad that argument's over.
02:33:37 <psygnisfive> warrigal: its not about silent at all
02:33:54 <psygnisfive> its a schwa, not silence.
02:34:08 <oklodol> psygnisfive: he knows, he's lojbanese
02:34:12 <Warrigal> Lojbanised: .UORigl.
02:34:19 <oklodol> ^ behold.
02:34:25 <psygnisfive> pfft
02:34:29 <Warrigal> Except where the "i" is the lojban pretend-it-isn't-there i.
02:34:34 <psygnisfive> lojban is an ugly language
02:34:43 <oklodol> psygnisfive: that's hardly the point
02:34:48 <oklodol> the point is i read his mind
02:35:13 <oklodol> "this term, i've heard it in lojban contexts, let's lojban it up"
02:35:34 <oklodol> of course, that probably isn't what he thought, but that's hardly the point either
02:35:47 <oklodol> there is no point, only mindless characters
02:35:48 <Warrigal> I haven't heard the word "Warrigal" in lojban contexts.
02:35:50 <oklodol> wandering around
02:35:53 <Warrigal> (Alternatively, .UORigyl.)
02:36:20 <oklodol> i mean, he didn't actually seem to respond to schwa with that lojban comment
02:36:46 <oklodol> well. we will never know
02:37:02 <oklodol> 7!:2 '+a' NB. But + (conjugate) does, even for a real array
02:37:02 <oklodol> 576
02:37:08 <oklodol> lol okay *that* is funny
02:37:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:37:18 <Warrigal> Is it .UORigl. or .UORigyl.? The world may never know.
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02:37:30 <oklodol> of course now it's not enough if you know j, you'd have to know what i'm talking about.
02:38:27 <psygnisfive> J is such an interesting language
02:38:45 <oklodol> is that trying to be sarcasm
02:38:50 <psygnisfive> nope!
02:38:53 <psygnisfive> i like J
02:38:55 <oklodol> good
02:38:57 <psygnisfive> its weird
02:38:58 <oklodol> yeah it's awesome
02:39:00 <psygnisfive> and thus wonderful
02:39:02 <psygnisfive> also
02:39:21 <psygnisfive> ive been tempted to try and design a lisp processor that doesn't simulate lisp with registers
02:39:32 <psygnisfive> but instead is actually a lisp machine
02:40:00 <psygnisfive> juno wudaimeen?
02:40:05 <oklodol> might be niec
02:40:39 <oklodol> i think eino
02:40:44 <psygnisfive> i mean, all the lisp processors ive seen are sort of register based
02:41:09 <psygnisfive> with stacks for storing register state for recursion and other nested function calls
02:41:24 <psygnisfive> but when you hand evaluate lisp you dont do this at all
02:41:36 <oklodol> yeah, whereas the processor should definitely understand regexes
02:41:43 <psygnisfive> lol
02:41:48 <oklodol> WHAT
02:41:48 <psygnisfive> obviously
02:41:52 <oklodol> DID I SAY REGEXES
02:41:55 <oklodol> THAT'S SO WHAT I MEANT.
02:42:09 <psygnisfive> i think processors should understand thue.
02:42:22 <oklodol> (i *occasionally* meant sexps)
02:42:28 <psygnisfive> also, earlier i realized why graph rewriting is obviously TC
02:43:35 <oklodol> why then?
02:43:58 <oklodol> because kolmogorov proved it or because you can encode thue in it?
02:43:59 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name
02:44:03 <oklodol> Warrigal
02:44:12 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name again
02:44:16 <oklodol> Warrigal
02:44:19 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name again again
02:44:23 <oklodol> Warrigal
02:44:26 <psygnisfive> because you can trivially encode a Type-0 language in it
02:44:30 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel for a while
02:44:33 * oklodol decides to get bored
02:44:41 <oklodol> hmm
02:44:46 <psygnisfive> i mean
02:45:01 <psygnisfive> a string is kind of just a graph that consists of only one chain
02:45:11 <oklodol> that's bad, ehird will so cling onto that.
02:45:16 <psygnisfive> abc is the graph ({a,b,c}, {(a,b),(b,c)})
02:45:32 <oklodol> ehird: i did not get bored, i just meant i decide not to continue doing that.
02:45:33 <psygnisfive> obviously the string "aa" in a graph would need to be like
02:45:45 <psygnisfive> ({a1,a2},{(a1,a2)})
02:45:48 <oklodol> ehird: sorry for confusing you, my life is still interesting 24/7.
02:46:52 <oklodol> yeah and you just hang things from the nodes of the path
02:46:54 <oklodol> to make characters
02:47:07 <psygnisfive> mm yeah that works even better
02:47:12 <oklodol> thus trivially encoding thue
02:47:15 <psygnisfive> you dont need to index your symbols
02:47:16 <oklodol> oh, you had another way?
02:47:27 <oklodol> i'm all queers
02:47:31 <oklodol> ...
02:47:34 <oklodol> whoops, must be the nick
02:47:40 <Warrigal> I think the graph representing the string "aa" is best written like this: aa
02:47:55 <psygnisfive> warrigal, thats a bad representation of the string as a graph
02:48:10 <Warrigal> I think you mean it's a bad representation of the graph as a string.
02:48:12 <oklodol> Warrigal: i read that as just one node eodermdrome
02:48:17 <oklodol> ...
02:48:18 <oklodol> lol
02:48:19 <psygnisfive> anyway
02:48:19 <Warrigal> That has two nodes, labeled a and a, connected.
02:48:21 <psygnisfive> oklodol
02:48:26 <psygnisfive> instead of indexing the nodes like i suggested
02:48:33 <oklodol> *node as eodermdrome notation
02:48:49 <psygnisfive> you could just have a 1-to-1 correspondence between string-symbol and some graph-nodes
02:49:02 <psygnisfive> where the n's symbol corresponds to some node n
02:49:08 <psygnisfive> with the relevant connections
02:49:14 <Warrigal> Here's a little star made of a's: aaa(aa)(aa)(aa)(aa)aa
02:49:21 <Warrigal> Here's a little ring made of a's: a1aaaaa1
02:49:30 <psygnisfive> and just connect node i to the graph node that represents the symbol for string-symbol i
02:50:22 <oklodol> Warrigal: (aa) means a path that returns after )?
02:50:30 <Warrigal> oklodol: yep.
02:50:35 -!- jayCampbell has joined.
02:50:49 <jayCampbell> esohi
02:51:01 <Warrigal> Well, the last thing in the parentheses is not connected to the thing before the parentheses.
02:51:11 -!- GregorR has joined.
02:51:21 <oklodol> Warrigal: that's kinda like eodermdrome, except you have a prettier way to return from the depth-first descent
02:51:30 <oklodol> Warrigal: i know
02:51:34 <Warrigal> This is inspired by SMILES.
02:51:56 <oklodol> oh. well i'm sure you could've invented it just as well.
02:52:05 <Warrigal> I'm sure I could have.
02:52:30 <Warrigal> This is an example of SMILES, I believe: CC(CC1=CC=CC=C1)NC
02:52:46 <oklodol> psygnisfive: sorry, i mentally ignored you for a moment, i tend to separate conversations like that
02:52:49 * oklodol reads
02:52:52 <psygnisfive> its ok :)
02:53:23 <Warrigal> Looking at that, you can tell you have a couple of carbons, and then a branch with what appears to be an aromatic ring, and the other branch is nitrogen and then carbon.
02:53:59 <Warrigal> The common name of that molecule is methamphetamine.
02:54:20 * Warrigal tries to come up with a SMILES for paracetamol
02:54:51 <oklodol> psygnisfive: so kinda like mine, except you have just one copy of each glyph-subgraph?
02:54:52 <psygnisfive> nevermind oklodol nevermind :p
02:54:52 <oklodol> :i
02:54:52 <oklodol> i do mind
02:54:53 <oklodol> hmm. can't be what you meant
02:54:54 <oklodol> or at least not with the kind of graph rewriting i'm thinking
02:54:54 <oklodol> you didn't really specify of course
02:55:01 <psygnisfive> im giving a formal mathematical definition to a mathematician friend
02:55:06 <psygnisfive> ill post it here if you want
02:55:11 <oklodol> psygnisfive: sure.
02:55:17 <oklodol> of course i'm only half-mathematician
02:56:12 <oklodol> Warrigal: i can't reverse-engineer ='s right now
02:56:13 <oklodol> ...
02:56:14 <oklodol> wait
02:56:18 <oklodol> i can with the explanation
02:56:50 <jayCampbell> this channel has certainly evolved
02:56:50 <oklodol> do *not* explain ='s.
02:56:54 <jayCampbell> pun only half intended
02:56:55 <oklodol> jayCampbell: from what to what
02:57:04 <psygnisfive> what pun
02:57:04 <oklodol> and also hi
02:57:13 <oklodol> i also mentally ignored you :)
02:57:24 <oklodol> and yeah, what pun?
02:57:25 <Warrigal> CC(=O)NC1=CC=C(O)C=C1
02:57:42 <jayCampbell> "evolved", this looks like organic chemistry
02:57:49 <oklodol> oh okay.
02:57:55 <oklodol> kinda far-fetched
02:58:05 <oklodol> so. from what to what?
02:58:37 <jayCampbell> from brainfuck to brain stimulant production
02:58:40 <oklodol> i thought it is, and always has been, a bag of random.
02:59:03 <oklodol> jayCampbell: we produce less than you could ever imagine
02:59:14 <oklodol> such small amounts it's mindblowing
03:01:33 <psygnisfive> ok oklodol
03:01:44 <psygnisfive> you want my little proof that graph rewriting is TC? :)
03:02:03 <Warrigal> My little proof that graph rewriting is TC is "Thue".
03:02:08 <psygnisfive> its beautifully trivial :D
03:02:15 <oklodol> well sure, if it's just you pasting a link
03:02:15 <Warrigal> Yours is probably more interesting.
03:02:29 <psygnisfive> well, ill write it up and give you the link then
03:03:01 <oklodol> psygnisfive: you can write it here as well
03:03:18 <psygnisfive> well, i'd rather have it all together, not spread out between other convos anyway
03:03:18 <psygnisfive> so
03:03:27 <oklodol> understandable
03:23:24 -!- Dewi has joined.
03:26:17 <oklodol> hy
03:32:40 <oklodol> i think i should try sleeping again
03:32:43 <oklodol> cya ->
03:37:24 <psygnisfive> oklopol
03:37:29 <psygnisfive> oklodol
03:37:39 <oklodol> ...well yes?
03:37:40 <psygnisfive> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/graph_rewriting_tc_proof.html
03:37:41 <oklodol> done?
03:38:07 <oklodol> i'll just read the beginning, then go to sleep.
03:38:28 <psygnisfive> theres not much to it other that showing that strings can be mapped to graphs
03:38:58 <psygnisfive> once youve done that, its trivial to replace rules that use strings with rules that use graphs
03:42:35 <psygnisfive> obviously to be more complete we'd want some rule for deriving new node sets at each step but thats trivial and boring
03:42:46 -!- jayCampbell has left (?).
03:43:24 <oklodol> well i have no idea how to do the mapping to graph rewriting rules
03:43:32 <oklodol> but, i don't know what rewriting you use
03:43:35 <psygnisfive> there is no real mapping
03:43:47 <psygnisfive> the mapping is just replacing the rules s -> s'
03:43:53 <psygnisfive> with rules G_s -> G_s'
03:44:22 <psygnisfive> er
03:44:28 <oklodol> i'll just believe that works.
03:44:31 <psygnisfive> K_s -> K_s'
03:44:34 <psygnisfive> it does
03:44:39 <psygnisfive> because strings can become graphs
03:44:48 <psygnisfive> a substring is a subgraph
03:45:11 <psygnisfive> so any string that has the substring s can be made into a graph that has the subgraph K_s
03:45:43 <oklodol> yeah i'm almost there.
03:45:46 <oklodol> but seriously
03:45:47 <oklodol> sleep
03:45:50 <psygnisfive> night :)
03:45:54 <oklodol> almost 6 am
03:45:56 <oklodol> :<
03:46:05 <oklodol> tried sleeping at 0:00
03:46:07 <oklodol> slept till 2
03:46:12 <oklodol> asdfjksjdflkj
03:46:13 <oklodol> ->
03:57:04 <oklodol> so say i have the string abc, and the rewriting rule ab->cc, first of all i'd have the graph ({0,1,2,a,b,c}, {(a,b),(b,c),(0,a),(1,b),(2,c)}) to represent abc?
03:57:27 <oklodol> where 0 1 2 are the nodes that represent the string
03:57:34 <oklodol> and a b c represent the symbols
03:58:56 <psygnisfive> hahaha
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03:59:01 <psygnisfive> yes :)
03:59:10 <psygnisfive> actually i modified it so that the graph's V has all the symbols in A
03:59:16 <psygnisfive> just to make it cleaner.
03:59:18 <oklodol> no waittt
03:59:23 <psygnisfive> but yes
03:59:26 <oklodol> if i have 0 1 2 be the actual characters
03:59:37 <oklodol> then (0,1) (1,2) and not (a,b) (b,c)
03:59:45 <psygnisfive> well yes
04:00:03 <psygnisfive> obviously you'd want to have symbols that aren't integers
04:00:22 <psygnisfive> so constraint it that all the symbols are of the form [s]
04:00:23 <oklodol> anyway, then the rewriting rule would be ({3, 4, a, b}, {(3,4), (3,a), (4,b)}) -> ({5, 6, c}, {(5,6), (5,c), (6,c)})?
04:00:24 <psygnisfive> or whatever you want.
04:00:42 <psygnisfive> er what?
04:01:24 <oklodol> :)
04:01:27 <oklodol> dunno. you show me
04:01:43 <psygnisfive> also, obviously this doesnt take into account the fact that i could be different when you look at the string being rewritten and the substring
04:01:45 <psygnisfive> ok so
04:01:53 <psygnisfive> if you have some rule ab -> cc
04:01:57 <psygnisfive> you have the graph rule
04:02:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:02:38 <psygnisfive> ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) -> ({1, 2, c}, {(1, 2), (1, c), (2, c)})
04:02:42 <Sgeo> I should do an esolang based on Active Worlds action lines
04:02:55 <oklodol> psygnisfive: hmm right.
04:03:32 <oklodol> but how does the graph rewriting work exactly?
04:03:38 <psygnisfive> what do you mean?
04:03:46 <oklodol> i mean obviously a, b and c are named nodes there
04:03:53 <oklodol> and 1, 2 aren't, they're variables
04:04:00 <oklodol> that can match any node
04:04:27 <psygnisfive> the node names are arbitrary.
04:04:41 <psygnisfive> just like i is arbitrary in a substring
04:04:52 <oklodol> i mean if not, then the first one could just as well be matching the string, not the string's two characters and the symbol nodes
04:04:54 <psygnisfive> the graphs there are subgraphs of some given graph in a derivation
04:05:19 <oklodol> if a and b aren't special then ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) will match any path of 4 nodes
04:05:21 <psygnisfive> just like the strings in the rule ab -> cc are substrings of a given string in a derivation
04:05:46 <psygnisfive> we could replace them with variables if you want, it doesn't matter.
04:05:54 <oklodol> hmm.
04:06:05 <oklodol> but...
04:06:06 <psygnisfive> the point is that strings can be mapped to graphs
04:06:32 <oklodol> i mean in the rule ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) -> ({1, 2, c}, {(1, 2), (1, c), (2, c)}), don't a, b and c necessarily have to refer to the same a, b and c as in the actual string
04:06:35 <psygnisfive> and any rule that rewrites some substring s1 .. sn as s1' ... sn'
04:06:46 <psygnisfive> can be rephrased to rewrite the equivalent subgraph
04:06:58 <psygnisfive> oklodol: what?
04:07:12 <oklodol> what what?
04:07:21 <psygnisfive> what do you mean the same a, b, and c as in the actual string?
04:07:32 <oklodol> in the graph construction of abc
04:07:45 <psygnisfive> what does that even mean tho?
04:07:55 <oklodol> that you're not just matching any path of 4 nodes.
04:08:16 <psygnisfive> that graph, firstly, is not a path of 4 nodes.
04:08:24 <oklodol> it's not?
04:08:27 <psygnisfive> its at most a graph of three nodes, but thats semi irrelevant
04:08:31 <psygnisfive> no, its a directed graph
04:08:36 <oklodol> oh.
04:08:50 <oklodol> that chages things.
04:08:53 <psygnisfive> :P
04:08:56 <oklodol> *changes
04:08:56 <psygnisfive> dumbass
04:09:08 <oklodol> yes, and still i'm not satisfied
04:09:09 <oklodol> i mean
04:09:16 <oklodol> still, the same question
04:09:25 <psygnisfive> and i too still give you the same question
04:09:28 <psygnisfive> what does that even mean
04:09:30 <oklodol> are a, b and c variables there, or can they just refer to any node in the original string
04:09:33 <oklodol> 's graph
04:09:37 <psygnisfive> oklodol
04:09:41 <psygnisfive> a, b, and c are symbols.
04:09:45 <psygnisfive> in the alphabet.
04:09:50 <psygnisfive> think of it like this
04:09:57 <oklodol> and the graph knows that?
04:10:11 <psygnisfive> the graph doesnt have to
04:10:49 <psygnisfive> because no rule will ever rewrite an alphabet node.
04:11:08 <psygnisfive> it only rewrites the string symbol nodes.
04:11:23 <psygnisfive> just think of it like this oklopol
04:11:32 <psygnisfive> your have one node for every symbol in the alphabet
04:11:43 <psygnisfive> collect all of these nodes at the bottom of your visual picture of the graph
04:11:54 <psygnisfive> above these you have a chain of nodes 1->2->...->n
04:12:06 <psygnisfive> for each symbol in a string
04:12:32 <oklodol> and each has a link to its symbol
04:12:34 <psygnisfive> and from each of these nodes you have an edge pointing to the alphabet symbol node
04:12:48 <oklodol> i know, i read your thing.
04:12:51 <psygnisfive> ok
04:12:55 <psygnisfive> so then why is this confusing?
04:12:57 <oklodol> it's the rewriting i don't understand
04:13:00 <oklodol> well.
04:13:16 <oklodol> kinda hard to explain it :)
04:13:26 <oklodol> wish i could just draw it on paper.
04:13:29 <psygnisfive> thats probably because you dont know what you mean :)
04:13:33 <psygnisfive> ok go and draw it
04:13:37 <oklodol> i know exactly what i mean
04:13:41 <psygnisfive> use an online whiteboard if you want
04:14:01 <psygnisfive> ill gladly watch and tell you you're wrong :p
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04:14:08 <oklodol> that in the rewrite rule, you have to match any two nodes that are connected to each other, and two two certain symbol nodes
04:14:14 <GregorR> WTF XCHAT
04:14:16 <GregorR> WTF
04:14:29 <oklodol> so these symbol nodes need to be named in the rule, they can't just be variables that match any nodes
04:14:41 <psygnisfive> oklopol: what?
04:14:44 <oklodol> because otherwise any two adjacent characters would match any rule of length 2
04:14:52 <psygnisfive> except oklopol
04:14:55 <psygnisfive> in the graphs
04:15:04 <psygnisfive> a and b and so on are not variables
04:15:14 <psygnisfive> they're symbols in the alphabet
04:15:40 <oklodol> ...so 1, 2... are variables in the rewriting system, and a, b... are constants?
04:16:08 <oklodol> i don't care what their semantics are
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04:16:08 <psygnisfive> a and b are the symbols in the alphabet
04:16:13 <oklodol> i mean
04:16:16 <oklodol> there's no alphabet
04:16:21 <Sgeo> Ok, here's my translation of AW into an esolang. I don't have any syntax, because I don't want to steal Active Worlds syntax
04:16:24 <oklodol> i'm asking how the graph rewriting works
04:16:25 <psygnisfive> there IS an alphabet, oklodol
04:16:31 <Sgeo> Objects can have names. Names aren't unique
04:16:38 <oklodol> what are the exact semantics of the graph rewriting
04:16:47 <oklodol> do those consider a and b different from 1 and 2 in the rules
04:16:52 <Sgeo> As an action, an object can set a timer on itself or on objects with a certain name
04:17:10 <psygnisfive> 1 and 2 are just the names for the nodes in the subgraph.
04:17:21 <Sgeo> These timers are the only real way for objects to communicate, other than setting text on them which can serve as output, but cannot be read by objects
04:17:27 <psygnisfive> just like s_1 and s_2 are the names for the symbols in a substring
04:17:38 <oklodol> psygnisfive: just give me the exact graph rewriting semantics, that's the only way
04:17:45 <psygnisfive> i did!
04:17:50 <oklodol> oh.
04:17:53 <psygnisfive> why do you have such a hard time understanding this?
04:18:08 <oklodol> i always do.
04:18:13 <Sgeo> When the timer goes off on an object, it might take an action, such as changing its name or setting a timer
04:18:38 <oklodol> psygnisfive: i mean
04:18:47 <oklodol> i don't see why a and b in the rewriting rules
04:18:48 <Sgeo> Actions might also be triggered by a click, or when the object is created
04:18:52 <Sgeo> What can be done with this?
04:18:53 <oklodol> would only match the nodes a and b
04:18:56 <Sgeo> Is it turing complete?
04:19:01 <oklodol> but the nodes 1 and 2 in the rewriting rules
04:19:03 <oklodol> match any two nodes
04:19:07 <psygnisfive> oklodol
04:19:08 <psygnisfive> what?
04:19:15 <psygnisfive> a and b are nodes.
04:19:22 <Sgeo> I guess no one's noticing me
04:19:34 <oklodol> if nothing matches any two nodes, and not just some named nodes, the amount of nodes will never increase)
04:19:39 <oklodol> *(if
04:19:39 <psygnisfive> 1 and 2 are also nodes, but they're variables not actual nodes
04:19:44 <oklodol> err.
04:19:55 <oklodol> so 1 and 2 are different from a and b, in the rewriting rules?
04:20:17 <psygnisfive> in the same way that s_1 and s_2 are different from a and b in string rewriting rules
04:20:21 <oklodol> the real question: are you leaving some semantics of string rewriting in the graph rewriting stage?
04:20:32 <oklodol> psygnisfive: okay. that's what i asked in the first place
04:20:40 <psygnisfive> oklodol, there is nothing confusing about this
04:20:43 <psygnisfive> just shut up and calculate.
04:20:45 <psygnisfive> stop thinking.
04:20:45 <oklodol> 06:03… oklodol: i mean obviously a, b and c are named nodes there
04:20:45 <oklodol> 06:03… oklodol: and 1, 2 aren't, they're variables
04:20:46 <psygnisfive> theres no thinking.
04:20:57 <psygnisfive> I SAID THEY WERE VARIABLES AGES AGO
04:20:59 <oklodol> you didn't say the rewriting system allows that
04:21:12 <psygnisfive> it allows it in the same way that it allows it in string rewriting
04:21:26 <oklodol> yeah, but you don't need that for getting it tc
04:21:30 <oklodol> so i didn't just assume it.
04:21:38 <oklodol> i asked, you didn't answer
04:21:41 <psygnisfive> you sort of do oklopol
04:21:43 <psygnisfive> when you write a rule like
04:21:45 <psygnisfive> ab -> cc
04:21:55 <psygnisfive> what you're saying is not just ab -> cc
04:22:00 <psygnisfive> what you're saying is really
04:22:22 <psygnisfive> a substring s_1 s_2, where s_1 is an instance of a, and s_2 is an instance of b
04:22:29 <oklodol> so, where did you clearly say a and b are symbols *in the graph rewriting language*?
04:22:33 <psygnisfive> can be replaced with the substrinct s_1 s_2 where s_1 and s_2 are both instances of c
04:23:11 <oklodol> because i thought you were talking about them being symbols in the string rewriting language
04:23:20 <psygnisfive> with strings this doesnt have to be as explicitly stated because a symbol can occur multiple times in a string in any order you want
04:23:40 <psygnisfive> so its like a tuple, or more accurately, a set {(symbol, index), ...}
04:24:00 <Warrigal> Sgeo: say it again so that I can pay attention to you this time.
04:24:01 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, i understand all this perfectly.
04:24:07 <psygnisfive> oklodol, the graph language and the string language are identical in some regard.
04:24:16 <psygnisfive> ok so oklopol
04:24:20 <psygnisfive> if you accept that a string can be
04:24:25 <oklodol> psygnisfive: saying that would've made this clear
04:24:28 <psygnisfive> {(1, a), (2, b), ...}
04:24:41 * Warrigal reads what Sgeo's already said instead of waiting for him to say it again
04:24:48 <psygnisfive> notice that this is EXACTLY a subset of the edge set for the equivalent graph
04:25:41 <Warrigal> So objects can have names, names aren't unique, an object can set a timer on itself or on objects with a certain name, these timers are the only way for objects to communicate, and when the timer goes off on an object, it might take an action.
04:25:49 <Warrigal> Precisely what Sgeo said, of course.
04:25:58 <psygnisfive> oklodol: saying so would've restated what should've been obvious :P
04:26:23 <Warrigal> Hmm...
04:26:34 <Sgeo> Objects can also take actions if clicked
04:26:37 <Warrigal> I can see implementing a Minsky machine with that.
04:26:42 <Sgeo> Minsky?
04:26:50 <oklodol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p665516556.txt
04:26:53 <Warrigal> The number of objects named A is the value in register A, etc.
04:27:03 <Sgeo> Can't count number of objects named A
04:27:14 <Warrigal> You don't need to be able to count.
04:27:23 <Warrigal> What you do need to be able to do, however, is decrement...
04:27:36 <Sgeo> Hm
04:27:39 <psygnisfive> "that's ok, I was assuming you had a brain"
04:27:45 <Warrigal> So no, that doesn't work.
04:27:51 <oklodol> psygnisfive: you don't have to explain anymore, i just didn't know you could have both named nodes and variable nodes, because you didn't show that in the rewrite rules in any way
04:28:00 <psygnisfive> oklopol
04:28:07 <Sgeo> You can have individual objects name themselves to something else
04:28:10 -!- Corun has joined.
04:28:13 <psygnisfive> you have named symbols and variable symbols in string rewriting.
04:28:14 <Sgeo> But it would be a fixed number that could do that
04:28:39 <Sgeo> I suppose I should describe the actual action line of AW, that might clarify things?
04:28:45 <psygnisfive> i mean, look oklopol
04:28:49 <Sgeo> In an action line, there are triggers for commands
04:28:49 <Warrigal> If you have a bunch of identical objects, can they possibly be distinguished, ever?
04:29:03 <Warrigal> Can you make an arbitrary number of non-identical objects?
04:29:08 <psygnisfive> if you accept that the string "xabx" is really something like {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)}
04:29:11 <Warrigal> If the answer to both of those is no, it's probably not Turing-complete.
04:29:20 -!- GregorR has joined.
04:29:25 <Sgeo> Technically, in AW, not an arbitrary number, due to space limitations, but let's ignore that
04:29:27 <psygnisfive> then the rewrite rule ab -> cc would be really
04:29:40 <psygnisfive> {(1, a), (2, b)} -> {(1, c), (2, c)}
04:29:48 <Sgeo> identical objects can technically be distinguished, if the viewer can't see some of them
04:30:04 <Warrigal> Then they're not very identical, are they.
04:30:09 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, so?
04:30:10 <psygnisfive> but {(1, a), (2, b)} is not a subset of {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)}
04:30:19 <psygnisfive> so how can it match a substring of {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)}?
04:30:19 <Sgeo> Let's ignore that too
04:30:25 <Sgeo> May I describe the action line?
04:30:27 <oklodol> because 1 and 2 are variables
04:30:30 <psygnisfive> exactly
04:30:32 <Warrigal> Ignore that method of distinguishing them?
04:30:33 <oklodol> ...
04:30:37 <psygnisfive> so you had variables in string rewriting already
04:30:37 <Sgeo> triggers are create, activate, bump, and adone
04:30:44 <Sgeo> commands are things like animate
04:30:51 <Sgeo> You might have in an object
04:31:00 <oklodol> psygnisfive: and why the fuck would i assume you assume the semantics from string rewriting stay once you get into the graph rewriting?
04:31:02 <psygnisfive> you just dont SHOW it because its obvious what you mean
04:31:08 <Sgeo> create name a, animate me . 1 1 0; adone visible no
04:31:21 <Warrigal> If you can't have an infinite number of non-identical objects, the only way to store infinite data is in the number of each type of object.
04:31:25 <oklodol> psygnisfive: no it's not.
04:31:27 <oklodol> nothing is obvious.
04:31:39 <Sgeo> That creates a name a, and sets a timer on itself for 0 seconds. When the timer goes off (adone), it goes invisible
04:31:56 <Sgeo> me can be changed to something else to trigger adone on a different object
04:31:56 <psygnisfive> well you would assume that, oklodol, because we're mapping strings to graphs
04:31:58 <Sgeo> Make any sense?
04:32:03 <oklodol> if you write something formal, i will read it formally, you didn't distinguish between the nodes of the rewriting rules, why would i.
04:32:10 <psygnisfive> and matching subgraphs, just like matching substrings, HAS FUCKING VARIABLES
04:32:14 <psygnisfive> it always has
04:32:22 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, but it doesn't need to have constants
04:32:32 <oklodol> and when i tried to ask if maybe you have those
04:32:34 <psygnisfive> it has constants only as much as strings have constants.
04:32:35 * Warrigal nods
04:32:40 <oklodol> you just started spouting trivialities
04:32:43 <oklodol> then insulting me
04:33:26 <psygnisfive> if i spout trivialities its because the answers to your questions are trivial.
04:33:36 <oklodol> yeah fuck you too
04:33:42 <oklodol> sleepy time, i got my answer ->
04:33:47 <Sgeo> An arbitrary number of non-identical objects can be made, but not dynamically
04:33:59 <psygnisfive> hey, you're the one who didnt realize i said it has variables even immediately after i fucking said it has variables
04:34:05 <psygnisfive> i cant help it if you're not reading my answers.
04:34:22 <psygnisfive> so dont give me this shit about how im being an asshole.
04:34:48 <psygnisfive> i mean, we're talking about graph rewriting, oklopol
04:34:58 <psygnisfive> ofcourse it has pattern matching with variables
04:35:03 <psygnisfive> why? because its graph rewriting!
04:35:08 <psygnisfive> any rewriting system has this
04:41:04 <psygnisfive> there i've changed it for you oklopol
04:42:02 <oklodol> yeah like i could sleep
04:42:04 <oklodol> :P
04:42:23 <oklodol> fucking log link
04:42:32 <psygnisfive> ?
04:42:34 <oklodol> like i'm not pissed off enough
04:42:49 <Sgeo> Warrigal, so, this means no turing completeness?
04:42:55 <psygnisfive> breathe, oklodol. this is nothing to be pissed off about
04:43:05 <Warrigal> Sgeo: sounds likely.
04:43:14 <Sgeo> What can be done?
04:43:20 <Sgeo> BRB
04:43:21 -!- oklodol has set topic: logs >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< seriously, i want them here..
04:44:46 <psygnisfive> oklodol
04:44:53 <psygnisfive> does the new version satisfy you?
04:46:04 <oklodol> psygnisfive: what new version?
04:46:08 <psygnisfive> i told you
04:46:13 <psygnisfive> i rewrote the proof for you.
04:46:23 <oklodol> and yes, it's definitely something to be pissed about
04:46:30 <psygnisfive> no, its really not
04:46:34 <oklodol> you were quite directly calling me an idiot
04:47:02 <psygnisfive> because you were being one.
04:47:07 <oklodol> after fucking writing a formal reduction, and then assuming "obvious" things.
04:47:15 <oklodol> psygnisfive: relink
04:47:23 <oklodol> wait no need
04:47:29 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I think I have a way to decrement
04:47:38 <psygnisfive> i assumed nothing more than what was already assumed by the fact that were talking about graph rewriting
04:47:48 <psygnisfive> which already assumes pattern matching
04:47:56 <Sgeo> Have a bunch of objects, one named d0, one named d1, one named d2
04:48:11 <Sgeo> Each one can... hm, n/m
04:48:57 <Sgeo> Actually
04:49:42 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, but it doesn't necessarily need anything but variables. which is why i asked whether there were constants. you didn't answer, so really, maybe i was ignorant of how graph rewriting works outside the eso community, but i definitely wasn't an idiot.
04:49:49 <oklodol> because of that.
04:49:58 <psygnisfive> ofcourse it requires constants, oklodol
04:50:02 <oklodol> no it doesn't
04:50:16 <psygnisfive> well, graph rewriting in general doesnt, no.
04:50:34 <psygnisfive> but thats really irrelevant.
04:51:30 <oklodol> yes, the only thing that's relevant is i can't sleep because i'm so fucking pissed :D
04:51:50 <psygnisfive> masturbate to thoughts of hurting me.
04:51:53 <Sgeo> Each object can have a certain set of actions happen when the timer goes off, but only one set of actions can be specified
04:51:54 <oklodol> and really, it doesn't matter how many times you tell me i really was an idiot
04:52:03 <oklodol> i do not agree
04:52:06 <oklodol> and i just get more pissed
04:52:15 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:15 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:16 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:18 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:20 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:30 <psygnisfive> now go jerk off to fantasies of smacking me.
04:52:33 <psygnisfive> we'll both me pleased.
04:52:38 <psygnisfive> be*
04:53:00 <Sgeo> I mean, even with the same name, different objects can have different actions
04:53:08 <Sgeo> But that doesn't really help, does it Warrigal?
04:53:08 <oklodol> glah. i need to see a shrink
04:53:12 <psygnisfive> no
04:53:17 <psygnisfive> you need to jerk off to fantasies of abusing me.
04:53:50 <oklodol> i can't. because i can't do anything. because i'm so fucking pissed.
04:53:56 <oklodol> :D
04:54:09 <oklodol> irc is fun
04:54:27 <psygnisfive> irc irks?
04:54:43 <psygnisfive> vox vexes?
04:55:30 <oklodol> well, you irk, irc just makes it harder to do anything about it.
04:55:46 <psygnisfive> i speak nothing but the truth!
04:56:06 <psygnisfive> if it irks you, then the truth irks you, not me!
04:56:57 <oklodol> no.
04:57:02 <psygnisfive> :3
04:57:18 <oklodol> you're an idiot and i'm ignoring you for... 5 minutes.
04:57:25 <psygnisfive> lol
04:57:34 <psygnisfive> OOOOH YOU MAKE ME SO PISSED
04:57:34 <Sgeo> Warrigal, awake?
04:57:35 <psygnisfive> :P
04:57:37 <oklodol> can't do longer than that before i'll read logs anyway.
04:57:49 <oklodol> Sgeo: so. i think i could try to read your thing now :P
04:57:52 -!- Corun has left (?).
04:58:01 <Warrigal> Sgeo: I think so.
04:58:10 <oklodol> can result in long mental ignores when i lose my calm.
04:59:15 <Sgeo> If you want the most accurate description, try http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Object_Scripting
04:59:20 <Sgeo> I want to make an esolang out of it
05:03:15 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Animate is the timer and inter-object interaction I was referring to
05:05:11 <oklodol> maybe i should just give up and start reading my book or something
05:05:25 <oklodol> i mean i could sleep only for like 4 hours anyway
05:10:37 <oklodol> Sgeo: so what would the primitives+semantics be then?
05:10:58 <Sgeo> primitives would be objects
05:11:19 <Sgeo> Semantics would be AWish
05:11:46 <Sgeo> Well, the sign command would display output
05:12:21 <psygnisfive> oklopol: read The Spartans
05:12:25 <psygnisfive> or Guns, Germs, and Steel
05:12:27 <psygnisfive> or Collapse
05:12:36 <Sgeo> Just don't want to copy AW syntax, since I'd like something workable by sane people
05:13:27 <oklodol> how's that a way to make an esolang, making things saner?
05:15:03 <Sgeo> I mean, unless you want code like
05:15:15 <Sgeo> create animate me . 1 1 0, astart
05:15:18 <Sgeo> <newline newline>
05:15:22 <Sgeo> some more stuff
05:15:45 <Sgeo> In an esolang, it should not be animate me
05:15:48 <Sgeo> probably
05:17:58 <Sgeo> And the esolang should be easier to write in than AW
05:21:08 <Sgeo> Bye all
05:21:09 <oklodol> well i didn't really read that link, so i'm not sure what animate me is.
05:21:12 <oklodol> oh
05:21:13 <oklodol> well bye
05:21:26 <Sgeo> oklodol, animate me sets the timer on the object
05:21:39 <Sgeo> animate a would set a timer on all objects named "a"
05:21:48 <Sgeo> What happens after is specified by the receiving object's adone
05:22:00 <oklodol> rught
05:22:02 <oklodol> *right
05:22:08 <Sgeo> Thing is, the syntax of AW's animate is ugly
05:22:14 <oklodol> and that callback is what, like a function?
05:22:21 <Sgeo> It's a trigger
05:22:34 <oklodol> what's a trigger
05:22:53 <Sgeo> create, activate, bump, and adone are triggers. you might have create sign hi
05:22:55 <Sgeo> For example
05:23:09 <Sgeo> which means as soon as the object comes into view, it's a sign with the text "hi"
05:23:24 <Sgeo> adone is a trigger like create, but it comes into play when the timer goes off
05:23:48 <Sgeo> Thing is, the animate syntax has stuff that's not relevent to an esolang
05:23:55 <Sgeo> animate me 1 1 1000
05:24:04 <Sgeo> The 1 and 1 refer to frame stuff
05:24:17 <Sgeo> 1000 is the time in miliseconds
05:25:40 <oklodol> delays would make a cool way to do control flow
05:26:28 <Sgeo> The delay can be 0
05:26:51 <Sgeo> and animate is the only meaningful way for objects to interact with eachother
05:27:04 <Sgeo> I mean, objects can make other objects signs, but for our purposes that's not interaction
05:28:11 <oklodol> psygnisfive: i don't read fiction
05:28:22 <psygnisfive> ey?
05:28:25 <psygnisfive> they're not fiction
05:28:38 <psygnisfive> The Spartans is a history of Sparta
05:28:38 <oklodol> oh. assumed they were
05:28:42 <oklodol> ah
05:28:56 <oklodol> well history not so much.
05:29:13 <psygnisfive> Guns, Germs, and Steel is a book about large-scale historical trends, namely why European nations went on to conquer the world and become enormously powerful and wealthy but noone else did
05:29:20 <oklodol> i consider it fiction that is considered to actually have happened, which is worse than just fiction
05:29:27 <psygnisfive> and Collapse is about why some societies face severe decline while others dont
05:29:36 <psygnisfive> faced*/didn't*
05:29:38 <oklodol> because the reality isn't that interesting
05:29:41 <oklodol> hmm
05:29:58 <oklodol> well. collapse might work.
05:30:05 <psygnisfive> GGS is good too
05:30:08 <oklodol> i'm all for stuff that's abstract
05:30:15 <psygnisfive> you can actually watch a show version of it
05:30:17 <oklodol> having to do with europe is a big minus
05:30:28 <psygnisfive> well, its not so much having to do with europe
05:30:33 <psygnisfive> its more having to do with the WORLD
05:30:49 <psygnisfive> and the fact of the world is that european culture is so and so while others arent
05:30:59 <oklodol> well that's not really my thing, i prefer theoretical worlds
05:31:05 <psygnisfive> most of the thing is about OTHER societies and why they couldn't rise to be enormously powerful
05:31:10 <oklodol> but i might enjoy it, hard to say not having read it.
05:31:21 <oklodol> that's always a problem with everything
05:31:22 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgnmT-Y_rGQ
05:31:22 <Sgeo> g2g
05:31:25 <psygnisfive> part 1 of the video version
05:31:28 <oklodol> bye Sgeo
05:31:33 <psygnisfive> its only 3 hours long so
05:31:34 <Sgeo> Bye
05:32:06 <oklodol> psygnisfive: well. k that does sound interesting.
05:32:41 <oklodol> it's just usually things other than math rarely say anything i don't consider trivial
05:32:55 <psygnisfive> :p
05:33:14 <psygnisfive> or the Collapse talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmZqW_xh_eA
05:34:13 <oklodol> i mean there are interesting things to be said about all subjects, and of course authors have something to say, otherwise they wouldn't have written the book; it's just most of it is just build-up
05:34:17 <oklodol> you can't do that with math
05:34:32 <psygnisfive> oklodol, one thing im really interested in doing is like creating a mathematical history
05:34:33 <psygnisfive> like
05:34:37 <oklodol> if there's no content, the reader will actually notice
05:34:47 <psygnisfive> a model of historical change thats almost mathematical in nature
05:35:00 <psygnisfive> i think thats sort of Jared Diamonds idea
05:35:07 <psygnisfive> (hes the guy who wrote GGS and Collapse)
05:35:40 <oklodol> well i like (formalizing all things) equally
05:35:46 <psygnisfive> :)
05:35:50 <oklodol> wait.
05:35:51 <psygnisfive> i REALLY want to formalize memetics
05:36:02 <oklodol> that grouping might be a bit wrong there.
05:36:11 <psygnisfive> yes it is ;)
05:36:14 <oklodol> blah. i'm so fucking tired
05:36:24 * psygnisfive pets oklodol
05:36:57 <oklodol> could you explain what the difference between the two parsings is
05:37:10 <oklodol> i mean
05:37:16 <psygnisfive> sure
05:37:21 <oklodol> god i'm in such a coma.
05:37:24 <psygnisfive> the difference is that yours is unparsable :)
05:37:44 <oklodol> for all things, the amount of how much i like to formalize them is the same
05:37:51 <psygnisfive> :p
05:37:53 <oklodol> and not that i like (formalizing things equally)
05:38:05 <psygnisfive> lol
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05:38:34 <oklodol> just thought that might require clearing up, ended up sticking parens in random places and confusing the whole world.
05:39:13 <oklodol> but, anyway
05:39:34 <oklodol> i'm not actually going to read those books, even though i don't have anything against reading the latter two in principle
05:40:00 <oklodol> there's enough stuff to read about the things i actually care about
05:42:29 <oklodol> also i'm much less pissed. which is good. i should stop ircing, it's dangerous.
05:43:36 <oklodol> also i should get something to drink, and start reading
05:43:48 <oklodol> this has been a pretty pointless night : D
05:43:49 <oklodol> ->
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08:33:22 <Mony> hi
08:34:19 <psygnisfive> as i said, the relevant relations in modern binding theory in minimalism atleast are coreference and c-command
08:34:23 <psygnisfive> whoops
08:34:24 <psygnisfive> D:
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12:35:03 <oklodol> o
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14:03:31 <ehird> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.
14:03:31 <fungot> ab
14:03:48 <ehird> yessssssssssssssss, it worked
14:20:08 <puzzlet> why the loop?
14:20:18 <ehird> puzzlet: to delay it while I disconnected/reconnecte
14:20:19 <ehird> d
14:20:28 <ehird> I found a bug in my IRC client's bouncer quicklog processing code.
14:20:35 <ehird> ^ jargon for the sake of it
14:20:39 <ehird> So I had to disconnect before it replied.
14:20:51 <puzzlet> k
14:37:34 <KingOfKarlsruhe> fungot: int main(void)
14:37:35 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: and granted p5 isn't as elegant as haskell or ocaml's versions.) both can accept optional trailing step arguments through ( by step).
14:38:00 <KingOfKarlsruhe> fungot: show tables;
14:38:01 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: for some x y. you cannot modify a variable i starting at 0 ( and both variables hold the same value); ( :range variable (index index-variable)), which is implemented
14:38:10 <ehird> ^style
14:38:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
14:38:16 <ehird> ^style darwin
14:38:16 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
14:38:23 <ehird> fungot:
14:38:23 <fungot> ehird: my dear lyell, yours gratefully, charles darwin.
14:40:18 <ehird> ^style fisher
14:40:19 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
14:40:22 <ehird> ah.
14:40:26 <ehird> fungot: *BEEP*
14:40:26 <fungot> ehird: ( ( i don't noise lately noise i haven't
14:40:36 <ehird> ^style ss
14:40:36 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
14:40:38 <ehird> ^style pa
14:40:38 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
14:40:46 <ehird> (sorry, fungot, but your style names are confusing)
14:40:46 <fungot> ehird: what are dante's guns called again?
14:40:51 <ehird> fungot: x
14:40:52 <fungot> ehird: that depends. how much do you have any big plans for sunday? someone else go. doom 3 comes out tomorrow.
14:41:01 <ehird> I think it's basically going verbatim here.
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16:38:36 <ehird> wow this code would make AnMaster squirm
16:38:45 <AnMaster> oh?
16:38:48 <AnMaster> what code
16:39:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Here's the first part of it.
16:39:38 <ehird> #define pp(x,t) (fpp(stdout, t, x))
16:39:39 <ehird> #define fpp(s,t,x) (_fpp((s), ((void *)(x)), (#t), (#x)))
16:39:41 <ehird> void _fpp(FILE *, void *, char *, const char *);
16:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, where is it from?
16:39:56 <ehird> Old code I wrote.
16:40:06 <AnMaster> ehird, IOCCC?
16:40:12 <AnMaster> well not that much
16:40:18 <ehird> Nah, it actually does something useful.
16:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? What?
16:40:24 <ehird> I'll pastie the actual .c
16:40:29 <AnMaster> nice
16:40:45 <ehird> http://pastie.org/private/kkghpnoxj3g4sn6hgjotla That header part + this. It's a debug prettyprinter
16:40:47 <ehird> Use like:
16:40:57 <ehird> pp(thing, type)
16:41:00 <ehird> e.g. pp(3, int)
16:41:04 <ehird> pp("hello world", char *)
16:41:07 <ehird> outputs, I think:
16:41:09 <ehird> 3 = 3
16:41:09 <ehird> and
16:41:13 <AnMaster> where are those defines you pasted?
16:41:14 <AnMaster> in here
16:41:17 <ehird> "hello world" = hello world
16:41:22 <ehird> AnMaster: in the header file libstuff.h
16:41:25 <AnMaster> ah
16:41:34 <ehird> you can also do e.g.
16:41:35 <ehird> pp(2+2, int)
16:41:37 <ehird> and it'd output
16:41:41 <ehird> 2+2 = 4
16:42:00 <AnMaster> ehird, to me it looks like you are basically re-implementing fprintf with an alternative syntax
16:42:03 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
16:42:08 <ehird> AnMaster: no.
16:42:13 <ehird> It prints out the expression.
16:42:17 <AnMaster> hm
16:42:20 <ehird> I didn't want the type argument at first
16:42:24 <AnMaster> ah quite cool code
16:42:24 <ehird> But I think typeof failed somehow
16:42:42 <ehird> It was to feed my 'print debugging' habit. :P
16:42:53 <AnMaster> hrrm if gcc you could get rid of the type argument by using typeof(), but it didn't work?
16:42:54 <AnMaster> huh
16:43:05 <ehird> I'll add in typeof and see what breaks
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16:43:11 <ehird> Assuming this code compiles.
16:43:13 <AnMaster> also typeof() isn't a good thing in a portable project of course
16:43:20 <AnMaster> but that may not be your goal
16:43:21 <ehird> #ifndef __GNUC__
16:43:21 <ehird> # error libstuff is only tested with gcc, proceed at your own risk.
16:43:23 <ehird> :P
16:43:33 <AnMaster> ehird, heh, what does this libstuff actually do?
16:43:42 <ehird> It was just a random collection of shtuff.
16:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and you know ICC and several other ones define __GNUC__
16:43:53 <ehird> Like #define streq(x,y) (strcmp((x), (y)) == 0)
16:43:56 <ehird> AnMaster: that's their problem
16:44:08 <AnMaster> ehird, hah it was me that said that some time ago to you
16:44:10 <AnMaster> about clang
16:44:35 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, I agree with myself there
16:44:46 <ehird> it's needed, practically, but it's their problem if something breaks
16:44:59 <ehird> % ./example
16:45:00 <ehird> zsh: bus error ./example
16:45:01 <ehird> huh.
16:45:06 <AnMaster> ehird, also that streq, can't see how it differs from a plain if (!strcmp(x, y))
16:45:15 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't , it's just sugar
16:45:18 <AnMaster> ah right
16:45:33 <AnMaster> ehird, bus error?
16:45:33 <AnMaster> wtf
16:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: segfault
16:45:40 <AnMaster> ah
16:45:45 <AnMaster> err not exactly
16:45:48 <ehird> ALTERNATIVELY: the programmer was run over by a bus
16:45:51 <AnMaster> SIGBUS != SIGSEGV
16:46:00 <AnMaster> both exist and are separate
16:46:10 <ehird> it's SIGSEGV, i think.
16:46:10 <AnMaster> though SIGBUS is extremely rare on x86
16:46:16 <ehird> Think it's a Darwin thing.
16:46:19 <AnMaster> ah
16:46:20 <ehird> or BSD
16:46:29 <ehird> or zhs
16:46:30 <ehird> *zsh
16:46:38 <AnMaster> well I have seen SIGBUS on some non-x86 systems, think it was an ALPHA or MIPS or such
16:46:53 <AnMaster> but never on x86
16:47:01 <ehird> wonder why this is segfaulting
16:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, try gdb?
16:47:17 <ehird> I think gcc expands typeof at cpp time, right?
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16:47:37 <AnMaster> ehird, err I think it ends up as __builtin_typeof, but I may be wrong
16:47:42 <AnMaster> so probably at compiling stage
16:47:48 <AnMaster> but not at runtime indeed
16:47:50 <AnMaster> afaik
16:47:59 <AnMaster> but I may be wrong
16:48:05 <ehird> ((_fpp(((&__sF[1])), ((void *)( "hello world")), (# typeof(("hello world"))), (# "hello world"))));
16:48:09 <ehird> XD
16:48:18 <ehird> That's some ugly expansion.
16:48:22 <AnMaster> agreed
16:48:32 <AnMaster> and I don't even plan to try to make sense of it
16:48:32 <AnMaster> also
16:48:57 <AnMaster> typeof(("hello world")) <-- 1) no idea if the extra () affects it, probably not, 2) the type would be const * char I think
16:49:09 <ehird> ah, probably the const tripped things up
16:49:41 <ehird> Hm, some PHP I wrote semi-recently. Why did I do that?
16:50:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that is why using -Wwrite-strings is a good idea, since all compiler and the C spec (even C89 iirc) say that using char * foo = "my string constant"; is deprecated
16:50:16 <AnMaster> should be const char * foo
16:50:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, but nobody really cares.
16:50:31 <ehird> I sure don't.
16:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you can run into issues with it, like if you try to modify that char*
16:50:55 <ehird> Solution: don't do that.
16:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm all for being able to find issues at compile time rather than runtime :)
16:51:24 <ehird> C is not exactly the language for that.
16:51:30 <AnMaster> true
16:51:41 <AnMaster> you probably want ADA for it or some language like that
16:51:48 <ehird> Or haskell.
16:52:08 <AnMaster> indeed. Oh and I started a bit, but I had so much to do, but I'm in no hurry
16:53:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway your debugging formatting code is an interesting idea
16:53:25 <ehird> ooh, an unfinished interpreter.
16:53:33 * ehird is rummaging thru ~/Code
16:53:36 <AnMaster> ehird, for what lang, in what lang?
16:53:44 <AnMaster> heh I use ~/src
16:53:46 <ehird> Own invention, in C.
16:54:09 <ehird> wasn't a very good one though.
16:54:14 <AnMaster> heh
16:54:19 <AnMaster> esolang?
16:54:21 <ehird> Specifically: it didn't work.
16:54:23 <ehird> AnMaster: nah
16:54:33 <AnMaster> ok, what type of lang then?
16:54:45 <ehird> Kind of like Ruby, but smaller and more consistent.
16:55:03 <AnMaster> a pitty it didn't work then
16:55:24 <ehird> I should have specced it and let the HUGE OPEN SOURCE COMMUNITY write the implementation for me.
16:55:49 <AnMaster> ehird, for that to work you need to make your 0.0.1 yourself first
16:56:03 <ehird> $ cat main.c \n int main() { return 0; }
16:56:04 <ehird> done
16:56:09 <AnMaster> haha
16:56:25 <ehird> Hm, a tcl-alike.
16:57:05 <ehird> Agh, I really want to finish that sometime
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16:57:13 <ehird> (C program in, graph of function calls and other flow out.)
16:58:28 <AnMaster> TCL-like!?
16:58:30 <AnMaster> wtf
16:58:35 <ehird> er
16:58:38 <ehird> that was two seperate things
16:58:39 <AnMaster> tcl is like php...
16:58:44 <ehird> what
16:58:46 <ehird> no it is not..
16:58:52 <AnMaster> ehird, as in "horrible"
16:58:53 <AnMaster> IMO
16:59:02 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe you haven't looked in to it
16:59:04 <ehird> it's quite elegant.
16:59:16 <ehird> see http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html
16:59:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes I have, for eggdrop thing
16:59:29 <ehird> eggdrop is horrible _in general_
16:59:33 <AnMaster> indeed
16:59:36 <ehird> you can make any language awful
16:59:52 <ehird> also interesting: http://antirez.com/page/picol.html tcl in 100 lines of c
17:00:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> see http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html <-- times out
17:00:30 <ehird> hmm ditto.
17:00:39 <ehird> Solution:
17:00:43 <AnMaster> both of them do
17:00:51 <ehird> sec
17:01:03 <Asztal_> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fantirez.com%2Farticoli%2Ftclmisunderstood.html&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:hu:official&client=firefox-a
17:01:09 <ehird> yeah
17:01:09 <ehird> :P
17:01:45 <ehird> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:wCtmFEnuu0MJ:antirez.com/page/picol.html+http://antirez.com/page/picol.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 ah, actually 550 lines
17:01:46 <ehird> still impressive
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17:02:19 <AnMaster> ehird, bbl food is ready
17:10:20 <AnMaster> ehird, hm about tcl, it has certain similarities to shell scripting, the "command space parameter space parameter..." bit for example, and yes there are more langs than shell and tcl that use that
17:10:33 <AnMaster> however I don't think that looks good
17:10:45 <AnMaster> it may be practical and work well, but it is ugly
17:10:47 * ehird facepalm.
17:10:52 <ehird> It's not conceptually ugly.
17:10:57 <ehird> The whole program is a single Tcl list.
17:11:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well the beauty is in the eye of the beholder
17:11:09 <AnMaster> and that sounds nice
17:12:59 <AnMaster> also another thing I dislike about shell scripting, and php, and also tcl: using $ prefix for variables. Sure it makes it less ambiguous and probably easier to parse. But it makes the code look messy
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17:13:24 <ehird> tcl doesn't look messy. Also, $a just parses to [set a].
17:13:29 <ehird> Which you could use if you wanted.
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17:23:13 <AnMaster> ehird, after reading that article: Yes TCL has certain nice points, but 1) it seems to be unable to do syntax checking in advance, due to the "proc unknown" thing 2) I *do* think it looks a bit messy, but of course that is subjective 3) due to the negative attitude attached to it saying you use TCL would be _somewhat_ like saying "I code in COBOL", and it isn't very popular, smaller user base, less co
17:23:14 <AnMaster> mmunity
17:23:34 <ehird> 1) That is irrelevant to syntax.
17:23:46 <ehird> 3) No, that's ridiculous, not everyone has stupid blanket opinions. additionally:
17:23:55 <ehird> http://wiki.tcl.tk/
17:23:59 <ehird> there's your vibrant community
17:24:29 <AnMaster> 1) How do you mean? Doesn't proc unknown allow you to do much the same as non-clean lisp macros?
17:24:56 <ehird> 1. Not really. It's just called when a non-bound function is called.
17:25:17 <AnMaster> hm ok
17:26:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well in certain aspects tcl is like a lisp without parentheses(spelling?) and with a bit of syntax,
17:26:51 <AnMaster> and then I would rather just use lisp
17:26:52 <AnMaster> :)
17:27:02 <ehird> It's imperative, not functional.
17:28:21 <AnMaster> true, but in many other aspects it is close, such as everything being a list, powerful redefining of internal structures, like the example of proc repeat in that article
17:28:33 <AnMaster> I can easily imagine that as a lisp macro
17:28:37 <AnMaster> quite close
17:30:29 <AnMaster> it also reminds me of bash in certain ways
17:30:32 <AnMaster> set a pu
17:30:33 <AnMaster> set b ts
17:30:33 <AnMaster> $a$b "Hello World"
17:30:40 <AnMaster> something very similar would work in bash
17:30:55 <ehird> yes.
17:32:32 <AnMaster> to me it seems like a mix of shell and lisp
17:33:10 <AnMaster> that reminds me... I remember reading about a functional shell some time ago
17:33:15 * AnMaster looks around
17:33:59 <AnMaster> nop can't find it
17:45:36 <AnMaster> sigh, I so dislike when random newbies /msg random people
17:45:42 <AnMaster> *especially* if that one is me
17:45:54 <AnMaster> being msged that is of course
17:45:58 <ehird> Who?
17:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, some newb in ##linux first asked if anyone was there (in an active channel with around 800 users, and several people had already spoken after he/she joined)
17:47:05 <AnMaster> then he/she did some random /msg to some people in there, including me
17:47:13 <ehird> Ooh, the original otpbot
17:47:19 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
17:47:23 <ehird> Be prepared for a TOPIC CELLULAR AUTOMATA
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17:47:30 <AnMaster> oh no
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17:47:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what one is it?
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17:47:46 <ehird> AnMaster: not sure.
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17:47:50 <ehird> the tc one I think.
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17:47:57 <ehird> best viewed with a wide client :P
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17:48:11 <ehird> pretttttttyyyyyyyyyyyy
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17:48:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I it is multi-line here
17:48:20 <AnMaster> and
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17:48:25 <AnMaster> please turn if off soon
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17:48:35 <ehird> AnMaster: i'll turn it off when people start talking
17:48:36 <ehird> :P
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17:48:40 <AnMaster> well
17:48:42 <AnMaster> I'm talking
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17:48:48 <ehird> yeah but
17:48:48 <Badger> I might be talking.
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17:48:51 <ehird> you don't count. :o
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17:48:55 <KingOfKarlsruhe> me2
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17:48:56 <Badger> :o
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17:48:59 <AnMaster> sigh
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17:49:03 <ehird> you all suck ass.
17:49:07 <Badger> no u
17:49:08 <Asztal_> Badgers can't talk :(
17:49:15 <Badger> Asztal_: prove it.
17:49:22 <Badger> go up to one and ask it.
17:49:40 <Asztal_> I will
17:49:43 <AnMaster> if he decides to answer you, he might not want to
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17:50:00 <ehird> yep, that was 110
17:50:03 <AnMaster> as far as I know they are like to be quiet
17:50:12 <ehird> http://pastie.org/349088.txt?key=j3sdlyntj4fyl1kmorbag
17:50:13 <ehird> triangles
17:51:01 <AnMaster> ehird, is 110 tc?
17:51:08 <ehird> that one is
17:51:30 <AnMaster> hm?
17:52:03 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the previous topic?
17:52:08 <ehird> wat
17:52:15 <AnMaster> before it changed topic
17:52:18 <AnMaster> what was the topic then
17:52:23 <ehird> who cares
17:52:28 <ehird> the current topic has the logs and Xs and _s
17:52:31 <ehird> what more do you want
17:52:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well tomorrow I'll want "happy new year"
17:52:45 <AnMaster> or something like that
17:52:54 <ehird> you mean in two days.
17:53:09 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
17:53:15 <AnMaster> it is 31 tomorrow
17:53:17 <ehird> yes.
17:53:21 <ehird> new years is 1 jan.
17:53:25 <ehird> so two days.
17:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well no, because I think we should go on the Australia timezone
17:53:54 <AnMaster> which will be way earlier than here
17:53:57 <ehird> #EINA
17:54:01 <AnMaster> EINA?
17:54:15 <ehird> #esoteric Is Not Agora
17:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, err you didn't act like that yesterday
17:54:33 <AnMaster> also, what has agora got to do with it?
17:54:43 <ehird> Agora celebrates its birthday in the australian timezone.
17:54:49 <ehird> Also, #esoteric is esotermic.
17:55:09 <AnMaster> ok, so what about NZ?
17:55:23 <ehird> What about nz?
17:55:29 <AnMaster> because we shouldn't be UK centric, that makes no sense
17:55:42 <ehird> AnMaster: UTC centric makes sense.
17:56:19 <AnMaster> ehird, for new year it makes sense to celebrate it at the point where it first happens, which isn't even NZ iirc but another hour or so before that
17:56:28 * AnMaster looks on a map
17:56:36 <ehird> No, it makes sense to celebrate it when it happens where you are.
17:56:45 <AnMaster> true
17:56:54 <ehird> Also, that's gregorian-centric.
17:56:55 <AnMaster> but the channel isn't in any specific place
17:57:03 <ehird> Exactly, so we default to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time
17:57:15 <ehird> Just like we default to English.
17:57:52 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: Use same timezone as that of the first freenode server to enter the new year
17:58:00 <ehird> lame idea. :P
17:58:05 <AnMaster> I think there is one in Australia
18:11:50 <ehird> awk: syntax error at source line 1 source file quine.awk
18:11:50 <ehird> context is
18:11:52 <ehird> >>> awk: <<<
18:11:54 <ehird> awk: bailing out at source line 5
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18:37:26 <ehird> WTFCODE
18:37:44 <ehird> http://pastie.org/private/kihnzfgeiwl79gzu0faa
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19:10:23 <ehird> 08:47:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: no, tail reads all the input into a red-black tree ndexed by line number, then when it hits EOF it repeatedly gets the lowest key,
19:10:23 <ehird> checks whether it's in the requested range to be printed, and prints it if so
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19:30:47 <oerjan> <ehird> the tc one I think.
19:31:01 <oerjan> nope, that is rule 30, which is not known to be tc
19:31:05 <ehird> hm ok
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19:31:14 <oerjan> (or so i think from the logs, it's definitely not 110)
19:31:36 <ehird> it has triangles
19:31:44 <oerjan> it might be, but it's reversible so trying random fields gives you no hints of gliders like 110 does
19:32:01 <ehird> mm
19:32:03 <oerjan> because reversible means random -> random, really
19:32:41 <oerjan> and also you would have to implement one of the reversible tc versions i guess
19:34:15 <oerjan> rule 110 triangles are not symmetric, but right-angled
19:42:19 <oerjan> what we need is a list of countries by timezone, then each hour we select one randomly in the timezone currently entering new year and put it in the topic.
19:42:33 <ehird> lol
19:42:42 <oerjan> so HAPPY NEW YEAR TONGA etc.
19:42:50 <oerjan> (not sure if that's the first one or last one)
19:45:03 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^()S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
19:45:04 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^:^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^:^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^::::^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^::::^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^:::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^::^^:^^^:^^^^::^ ...too much output!
19:45:14 <oerjan> oops
19:45:34 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
19:45:35 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
19:45:49 <oerjan> that's 110
19:50:03 <oerjan> ^help
19:50:03 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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20:50:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? Any progress on jitfunge?
20:54:34 <oerjan> it won't progress until the very last minute. that much should be obvious.
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21:37:28 <ehird> ok
21:37:28 <ehird> oklo
21:37:28 <ehird> oplo
21:37:28 <ehird> ...
21:37:28 <ehird> where is he
21:37:28 <oerjan> oh dear
22:02:48 <oerjan> 07:42:48 --- quit: oklodol (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:02:48 <ehird> what's that in utc
22:02:48 <oerjan> argh
22:02:48 <oerjan> why the heck don't the logs use utc
22:04:49 <ehird> cause they're shit
22:04:49 <oerjan> also, clog just stopped logging it seems
22:04:49 <oerjan> ok tunes 12:54 = my 21:54 = utc 20:54
22:04:49 <oerjan> so add 8
22:04:49 <ehird> so, around 16:00
22:04:49 <ehird> also, no logging because:
22:04:49 <ehird> 21:21 <Bouncer> <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, It would appear one of our US client servers have fallen off the edge of the discwo^H^H^H^H^H^Hinternet and all but vanished! We're looking into the issue now and hope to have it back soon. Affected users ~3K. Apologies for the inconvenience and thank you for flying freenode!
22:04:49 <oerjan> with the exception that clog is actually still in the channel
22:04:49 <ehird> i think that's an oddity of the problem
22:04:49 <ehird> but if clog is down, sweet, now I can take over the lucrative #esoteric logging market
22:04:49 <oerjan> you should be able to make thousands of esodollars in profit
22:04:49 <ehird> yes
22:04:49 <ehird> woah, I have so much stuff in ~ that software trying to traverse it all crashes
22:04:49 <AnMaster> hm interesting mediawiki hack: http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header (see http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header&action=edit for the source)
22:04:49 <AnMaster> didn't know you could do that kind of stuff with mediawiki
22:04:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd really fucking prefer they didn't
22:04:49 <ehird> god those ads on wikipedia are so annoying
22:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I agree
22:04:49 <ehird> especially when it randomly switches to RED BORDER MODE
22:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, but that was not ads, but fund raising pages
22:04:49 <ehird> yes
22:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, red border mode?
22:04:49 <AnMaster> I don't see any red borders
22:04:49 <ehird> AnMaster: they randomly switch between them
22:04:49 <ehird> they're trying to find out which is most-liked
22:04:49 <ehird> the answer is none of them.
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header/en&action=edit
22:04:50 <ehird> calls to http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header&action=edit
22:04:50 <ehird> in donate-header, "<skin>Tomas</skin>" is the magick.
22:04:50 <ehird> and <html> is a Mega-Unsafe option you can enable
22:04:50 <ehird> for arbitrary html embedding
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't enabled on normal wikipedia I bet
22:04:50 <ehird> no duh
22:04:50 <ehird> also, http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/youre-trying-to-divide-by-zero.jpg
22:04:50 <AnMaster> only on the "login really really required" wiki
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "personal approval required for registration", too.
22:04:50 <ehird> well
22:04:50 <ehird> not qute
22:04:50 <ehird> but that page will be protected
22:04:50 <ehird> and only protected pages can use <html> i think
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
22:04:50 <ehird> i really wish I didn't know this stuff; mediawiki is a huge hack.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> yes
22:04:50 <AnMaster> it is
22:04:50 <ehird> 1969 – She won the first "man of the year" award from the Data Processing Management Association. -- [[Grace Hopper]]
22:04:50 <ehird> ^ lol
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also that divide by zero: heh
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, where was that quote from?
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "-- [[Grace Hopper]]"
22:04:50 <oerjan> ehird: you can turn off the fundraiser in your wikipedia preferences if you're logged in
22:04:50 <ehird> oerjan: i really don't give a shit
22:04:50 <ehird> I don't want to login
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ah
22:04:50 <ehird> I want the wikimedia foundation to get a clue
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what about a smaller ad, like half the size of the compressed box?
22:04:50 <AnMaster> something just like "Please support wikipedia"
22:04:50 <AnMaster> or whatever
22:04:50 <oerjan> you want them to start doing _real_ ads because they don't get any donations? :)
22:04:50 <ehird> that would be more acceptable, AnMaster
22:04:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, no
22:04:50 <ehird> but how about they get a better way to gain funds than groveling with HUGE FUCKING RED BORDERS.
22:04:50 <ehird> i mean, crazy I know.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed
22:04:50 <ehird> even the devs hate coding in the ads, apparently
22:04:50 <ehird> last year ais said they had a MARQUEE
22:04:50 <ehird> of donation messages
22:04:50 <ehird> and the commit asked people to please try and talk some sense into the WMF
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well WMF use HTML 4.0 on the fund raising pages
22:04:50 <ehird> i mean on the wikipedia header
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it was a javascript marquee
22:04:50 <ehird> probably
22:04:50 <ehird> not <marquee>
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, even so
22:04:50 <ehird> yeah
22:04:50 <ehird> awful :P
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, noscript++
22:04:50 <ehird> notgoingtositesthatusemarquees++
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that too
22:04:50 <AnMaster> but when I need to look up the plot summary of a Star Trek episode, where should I go if not wikipedia?
22:04:50 <AnMaster> where else is there?
22:04:50 <ehird> memory alpha?
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, ah true
22:04:50 <ehird> I'm kind of ashamed that I know that name.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, same
22:04:50 <AnMaster> :P
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: you could use adblock to block the donation grid
22:04:50 <ehird> I might do that, with a greasemonkey script (greasekit does them for safari)
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I do use adblock as well
22:04:50 <AnMaster> adblock and noscript
22:04:50 <GreaseMonkey> hello.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> lol
22:04:50 <ehird> i use lynx
22:04:50 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, not you, the firefox extension
22:04:50 <ehird> 0.1
22:04:50 <ehird> with nohtml
22:04:50 <ehird> it blocks all html
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I do use lynx sometimes, it has excellent gopher support
22:04:50 <ehird> also, I only use it for gopher
22:04:50 <AnMaster> and it support short tags better than other browsers
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: ugh, stop being all poe's law on me
22:04:50 <GreaseMonkey> i know
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm not
22:04:50 <AnMaster> I was playing along
22:04:50 <ehird> ah. ;P
22:04:50 <ehird> *:P
22:04:50 <AnMaster> :^
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the banner goes away if you block javascript from upload.wikimedia.org
22:04:50 <ehird> wikipedia uses js for other useful things tho.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> well yes
22:04:50 <AnMaster> there are very few cases of people using js for something good
22:04:50 <AnMaster> all those javascript menus for example... CSS menus!
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22:48:30 <ehird> x
22:48:35 <ehird> x+8
22:48:44 <oerjan> x!
22:49:43 <ehird> 9
22:50:21 <oerjan> i sin x - pi
22:54:07 <ehird> 5
22:55:11 <oerjan> -180
22:55:16 <ehird> 9
22:55:53 <oerjan> 9
22:56:30 <ehird> 9
22:56:42 <oerjan> -9
22:57:03 <ehird> 9
22:57:24 <oerjan> 0
22:57:38 <ehird> 9
22:58:18 <oerjan> 387420489
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23:11:30 <oerjan> Swami Abandananda
23:12:07 <ehird> .
23:12:08 <ehird> 9
23:14:36 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.
23:14:36 <fungot> I
23:14:41 <oerjan> what the heck
23:15:08 * oerjan is losing basic arithmetic
23:15:18 <ehird> oerjan: ouch
23:15:24 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++[->++++++++<]>+.
23:15:25 <fungot> 9
23:15:36 <ehird> oerjan: now make it print a space and 9s forever.
23:16:15 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->+++++++>++++<<]>+[.>.<]
23:16:15 <fungot> 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 ...
23:16:26 <ehird> yay
23:16:40 <ehird> >.<
23:16:40 <ehird> awwwww
23:16:54 <psygnisfive> ?
23:17:37 <ehird> +[.>.<]
23:17:48 <psygnisfive> ^bf +[.>.<]
23:17:48 <fungot> <CTCP>
23:18:02 <psygnisfive> does not compute!
23:18:03 <psygnisfive> D:
23:18:05 <ehird> 23:16 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->+++++++>++++<<]>+[.>.<]
23:18:20 <psygnisfive> oic
23:18:31 <oerjan> voici
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