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00:32:39 <oklofok> MizardX: does matlab have lambdas?
00:33:50 <MizardX> I think @(params)expr could be considered a lambda-function... combinators and forks, I don't know.
00:34:53 <oklofok> well. you can rename the sum with a lambda and use the name
00:35:10 <oklofok> but err. seems like there could be a simple more mathematical hack there
00:39:20 <MizardX> min(abs(sum(sum(N)) - 3 - [N(5) 0])) == 0
00:39:29 <oklofok> err matlab doesn't distinguish between functions and lists?
00:40:52 <MizardX> All values are matrices. Scalars have dimension 1x1.
00:41:04 <oklofok> couldn't you skip the abs and use max?
00:42:11 <oklofok> but it's an implicit map in that case?
00:42:32 <oklofok> i still don't know what [N(5) 0] means
00:42:43 <oklofok> unless it's an array of size 2 containing those two
00:43:03 <MizardX> [1 2 3; 4 5 6; 7 8 9] is the syntax for matrices
00:43:55 <MizardX> N(5) is the fifth element of N (ignoring the second dimension)
00:43:58 <oklofok> 2:42, need to sleep now. anyway i'll just assume i guessed it right because it works :P
00:44:34 <oklofok> are arrays functions in matlab, can you pass them to, say, map?
00:44:46 <oklofok> but really, sleep, can't keep my eyes open
00:45:45 <MizardX> Hard to explain everything. Most the syntax have evolved and are there for convenience.
00:46:32 <MizardX> Matlab is good att matrix and vector calculation.
00:47:49 <MizardX> If you can express an algorithm as a matrix/vector expression, then matlab can execute it quickly.
00:49:15 <MizardX> A * B = matrix product, with special casing for vector and scalar values.
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01:15:32 <puzzlet> typical netsplit, apprently
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02:47:02 * Max_D loves the fishes cuase they're so delicious
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08:48:34 <amca> What do you wonder?
08:48:49 <psygnisfive> what kinds of programming can we do if we force the entire model to be MISD
08:49:47 <amca> As in Multiple Instruction, Single data?
08:50:21 <amca> I think it would be called CISC. ;)
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08:51:02 <psygnisfive> if we had to force all our functions to accept one and only one argument
08:51:12 <psygnisfive> except the functions that act like reduces
08:51:13 <ais523> psygnisfive: then you'd end up with Unlambda?
08:51:43 <amca> Like Lambda Calculus?
08:52:28 <ais523> amca: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda
08:52:43 <ais523> it's one of the seminal esolangs, you should look it up if you don't know it
08:53:56 <psygnisfive> im just thinking about how the brain processes data, and such.
08:54:11 <psygnisfive> i guess purely functional programming is vaguely like that i suppose
08:54:46 <amca> ais523: Ive come across it. It is more combinatorial logic than LC isnt it?
08:55:23 <ais523> although LC can be compiled into combinatorial logic
08:55:33 <amca> And vice versa?
08:55:36 <ais523> I don't know of anyone who's tried to write Unlambda without going via LC first
08:55:39 <ais523> except for very simple programs
08:59:24 <psygnisfive> hm.. everything-as-a-stream is interesting too
09:03:48 <amca> There is a name for that isnt there? Data <something> programming languages?
09:04:09 <psygnisfive> well, there are stream programming languages
09:04:17 <psygnisfive> but i dont know of a language where _everything_ must be a stream
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10:02:26 <oprz> i was coding in +'s and .'s
10:03:08 <oerjan> well you can print fixed strings that way
10:03:35 <oerjan> well with wrapping cells
10:04:15 <oprz> i dont like brainfuck that much
10:04:33 <oprz> i like the PHP function used for parsing brainfuck code
10:05:09 <oerjan> but brainfuck is implemented in almost everything
10:05:40 <oprz> how do you mean
10:06:13 <oerjan> there are implementations in lots of languages.
10:06:51 <oerjan> it's so simple it's very easy to implement
10:07:04 <oprz> i think it is hard to implement
10:07:11 <oprz> but then again my brain is small
10:07:20 <oerjan> not compared to nearly any other languages
10:07:40 <oprz> whats the point of implementing another language into an existing language?
10:08:15 <oerjan> well you have to do it at least once to get the new language running at all :D
10:08:59 <oerjan> but most people do it as a programming exercise i think
10:09:35 <oerjan> we have a page on our wiki about esoteric languages implemented in each other
10:10:18 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/EsoInterpreters
10:14:30 <oprz> will look later got to go now
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12:47:12 <ski__> [] ([] a -> a) -> [] a
12:48:39 <ski__> .. but can you implement it ?
12:48:53 <ehird> Well, it's just [[a] -> a] -> [a].
12:49:11 <ehird> So, some fix magic there.
12:49:12 <ski__> well `[]' doesn't stand for "List", here
12:49:19 <ehird> ski__: What does it stand for?
12:49:30 <ski__> `[]' is supposed to look like the "box" character
12:49:43 <ski__> you can interpret `[]' as "Code", if you wish
12:50:34 <ski__> so, a value in `[] a' is an expression/code for a value in `a'
12:50:40 <ski__> consider things like
12:50:51 <ehird> Like (2+2) :: [] Integer?
12:51:00 <ehird> Or, well, you'd need a quoting char.
12:51:02 <ski__> no, `2+2' is an integer
12:51:04 <ehird> {2+2} :: [] Integer?
12:51:33 <ehird> Okay. so you pass it code that evaluates to a function that takes some code evaluating to type a and returns a value of type a.
12:51:42 <ehird> And it gives you some code evaluating to type a.
12:51:48 <ski__> (or `<2 + 2>' in MetaML .. i don't recall if MetaO'Caml had the same syntax there)
12:51:53 <ehird> {eval} works for the first argument.
12:52:04 <ehird> But what does it do?
12:52:27 <ski__> i'm trying to implement it to find out
12:52:38 <ski__> i have a proof of it in a book
12:52:55 <ski__> where `[]' is interpreted as "Provable"
12:52:58 <ehird> foo x = eval x $ foo x
12:53:23 <ski__> the proof i've seen seems quite remniscent of
12:53:44 <ehird> Is foo x = eval x $ foo x not a valid definition?
12:54:14 <ehird> ski__: foo x = eval x $ foo x
12:54:17 <ski__> (if you squint the right way)
12:54:28 <ehird> foo x = {eval x $ foo x}
12:55:45 <ski__> i think that might often hang
12:56:09 <ski__> (that definition is basically the `loebF :: Functor f => f (f a -> a) -> f a', i think)
12:56:20 <ehird> ski__: But, certainly it would.
12:56:24 <ehird> It still meets the type.
12:56:27 <ski__> yes, Loeb's theorem
12:56:59 <ski__> however, i think if one implements it correctly, it would never hang (on defined inputs)
12:57:19 <ski__> (the logic in the book is supposed to be a consistent one ..)
12:57:56 <ski__> (MizardX : never seen nestable quotes before ?)
12:58:40 <ski__> (ehird : another strange thing is that `[] a -> a' is not generally provable in the logic (it would lead to contradiction))
12:59:03 <ehird> ski__: `' style quotes are pretty ugly :-P
12:59:18 <ehird> ski__: ah, goedel-y stuff?
13:00:34 <ski__> if `[] a -> a' is a theorem, then `[] ([] a -> a)' is also a theorem, and by loeb's theorem `[] ([] a -> a) -> [] a', we could then deduce that `[] a' is a theorem ..
13:00:58 <ehird> Therefore, the universe does not exist.
13:01:27 <ski__> .. so if we want the logic to be consistent, and want `[]' to really mean "provable", then for any false `a' we'd better not have a proof of `[] a -> a'
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13:02:02 <ais523> you win, but not by much
13:03:48 <ski__> (.. in any case, i'm trying to implement it in haskell .. by defining a data type `[]' .. but the quoting is not obvious how to handle)
13:04:06 <ehird> Defining a data type, [], might clash slightly :-P
13:04:12 <ais523> why is #esoteric getting so many new people nowadays?
13:04:17 <psygnisfive> ski__ is an AI build out of the ski combinatory calculus
13:04:20 <ais523> has esolanging accidentally become popular?
13:04:20 <ehird> ais523: I brought this one from #haskell <_<
13:04:22 <ski__> obviously i'm not calling it `[]' ! :)
13:04:46 <ehird> also, one of our newbies only came here by chance
13:04:53 * ski__ has visited here once or twice before ..
13:05:06 <ehird> hmm I think I may be mixing you up with someone else
13:05:16 <ais523> I'm worried that my INTERCAL evangelism may have gone too far...
13:05:38 <ehird> Grepping the logs for 'ski' is nontrivial
13:05:54 <ehird> 06.03.19:08:04:31 --- join: ski__ (n=slj@84-217-32-122.tn.glocalnet.net) joined #esoteric
13:06:23 <ehird> First occurance of "ski":
13:06:23 <ehird> 03.01.21:01:59:01 <fizzie> printed with a befunge prog or something? I recall seeing a sierpinski-triangle-printer once.
13:06:35 <ehird> (YY.MM.DD:HH:MM:SS, in case anyone didn't know)
13:07:29 <ais523> hmm... I keep hitting MichaelRaskin from #IRP
13:07:33 <fizzie> It was about one of dbc's printed-out ascii-art thingsies.
13:07:45 <ehird> The name Michael Raskin rings a bell.
13:07:53 <ehird> fizzie: wow, how can you remember that?
13:08:03 <fizzie> ehird: With the magic of 'grep'.
13:08:13 <fizzie> That is to say: I cheated.
13:09:21 <ais523> well, ski__ and me have never been in the same channel at the same time before
13:09:24 <ais523> at least not while I'm on this client
13:09:33 <ais523> but that's not surprising, 2006 was before I got this laptop
13:09:59 <ehird> ais523: You only came in here 200
13:10:07 <ehird> 07.01.15:09:15:34 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric
13:10:30 <ais523> ah, everyone loves CDE
13:10:37 <ais523> which is the desktop environment that old server was running
13:10:52 <ais523> via X forwarding to a terminal running on Windows
13:11:03 <ehird> You know, I think Windows would be preferable to that, ais523.
13:11:11 <ais523> ehird: it didn't have an IRC client
13:11:16 <ais523> and we weren't allowed to install executables
13:11:24 <ehird> Use a web-based one? :p
13:11:33 <ais523> besides, I did pretty much everything back then using xterm
13:11:40 <ais523> that way the desktop environment didn't really matter
13:11:45 <ais523> it's where I learnt the UNIX command line
13:14:41 <ehird> 09:45:05 <ais523> Yes, I'm enjoying esolangs. I enjoyed the logs, too, before I had access to an IRC client.
13:14:46 <ehird> you were a logreader before you ever came in
13:14:59 <ais523> they were linked from the wiki
13:15:17 <ais523> took me a while to find an IRC client
13:15:24 <ais523> without installing any software
13:15:28 <ais523> or knowing about netcat/telnet
13:15:52 <ehird> How did you install firefox?
13:16:11 <ehird> Bloatzilla, then, I assume
13:17:21 <ais523> it was a case of clicking on a irc:// link to see what happened
13:17:21 <ais523> and that was a really old version of Mozilla
13:17:21 <ais523> it did some really weird things
13:17:32 <ais523> (I blanked Talk:Main Page on Wikipedia by accident, once, for instance, and quite a lot of my edits introduced spurious line breaks. I stopped using Mozilla for Wikipedia when I noticed.)
13:21:46 * ehird complains about human bias on Talk:Main_Page
13:22:24 <ehird> It's a "featured article" full of bilge. This is one of the few really reprehensible things about Wikipedia: that we have so many brilliant articles but we filter them in such a manner that the most ridiculous crap is designated as the best we have. It's pretty horrible. If you're involved in this bilious process, stop. If you're not, stay away from it. Write about what need to be written about , edit the articles that need to be edited, and avoid the pr
13:22:35 <ehird> Can Wikipedia pick a FA that won't be complained about?
13:22:41 <ehird> Is it physically possible?
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13:23:35 <ehird> [[ I'm left with the urge to ask if wikipedia got paid for running this commercial. ]]
13:23:39 <ehird> Nobody's EVER done that before!
13:23:59 <ais523> ehird: I think there have been some FAs that haven't been complained about
13:24:06 <ais523> although I can't think of one offhan
13:27:26 <ski__> (cut off at "... and avoid the pr")
13:29:04 <ehird> ski__: you got the gist
13:29:35 <ski__> was it a quote or something you actually wrote just above ?
13:32:34 <fizzie> Wikipedia, request for discussion about the "Nasal Sex → Sexual intercourse" redirect: "Delete. Why would anyone search for nasal sex?" "While I don't wish to speculate the reason why, it was seached for 70 times in novemeber 2008 and 100 times in october."
13:33:40 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_Sex
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14:22:59 <ehird> I entered here first 17 days before ais523 did:
14:22:59 <ehird> 06.12.29:12:42:41 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@user-5440e204.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #esoteric
14:23:04 <ehird> But I didn't say anything.
14:23:09 <ehird> I only returned in 2007.
14:23:18 <ehird> 2007-05-14, to be precise.
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14:23:58 <ehird> 12:43:09 --- part: ehird left #esoteric
14:24:00 <ehird> That's some epic shyness.
14:26:00 <ehird> I should get a PhD in #esoteric Log Analysis.
14:27:44 <oklofok> so, like, i was at this lecture just now
14:27:48 <oklofok> and, like, there was this dude
14:28:02 <oklofok> who was coding a function called parseDoubles in java
14:28:36 <oklofok> well correcting it for two hours, at the end of the lecture, the code was red with errors
14:28:48 <oklofok> err i was listening to the lecture and reading algebra
14:28:56 <oklofok> and watching him, silently lolling inside
14:29:16 <ais523> oklofok: "silently lolling" is a bit of an oxymoron...
14:29:28 <ehird> oklopol is an oxymoron
14:29:30 <oklofok> yeah, that was actually not intentional
14:29:32 <ehird> he breathes, and he's a moron
14:30:00 <ehird> hahahaha that's the funniest joke I've made all year
14:30:06 <oklofok> ais523: also "silently xxxing inside" is the opposite of oxymoron
14:30:11 <oklofok> there's a term for it too right?
14:30:19 <ais523> ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's
14:30:32 <ais523> oklofok: I'm not entirely sure if it's the opposite
14:30:38 <ehird> 14:30 < ais523> ehird: your jokes are even worse than AnMaster's
14:30:38 <ehird> 14:30 < AnMaster> ?
14:30:44 <ehird> AnMaster is physically incapable of looking up one line
14:31:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol is an oxymoron <-- I mean that one
14:31:05 <ais523> it looks like it's the same thing, a contradiction negated is still a contradiction...
14:31:14 <ais523> depending on what sort of negating you use
14:32:08 <oklofok> ais523: "silently lol", silently do something out loud, contradictory; "silently ... inside", to do something silently, and not do it out loud, a tautology
14:32:23 <ais523> oklofok: oh, silently...inside is a redundancy
14:32:48 <oklofok> yes, but i'm pretty sure there's another term for when you do it in english
14:33:14 <oklofok> but still, was just pointing out it was doubly weirdly put.
14:34:32 <ehird> * SimonRC worships B.S.
14:34:43 <ehird> Actually referring to Bjrane Stroustrup, but they're equivalent.
14:36:14 <oklofok> i agree with a lot of his writingz
14:36:18 <ehird> and thought it was good
14:36:33 <oklofok> yes, but he hates the parts that suck as much as everyone
14:36:52 <ehird> you mean like all of them?
14:37:55 <oklofok> i don't consider it a bad language, just too low-level for my taste
14:38:57 <oklofok> :: (- "asdasdfasdfasdf" "aaa")
14:39:07 <oklofok> :: (* "asdasdfasdfasdf" 6)
14:39:07 <oktabot> asdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdfasdasdfasdfasdf
14:55:10 * ehird writes alphabet look and say in thue
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14:55:43 <ais523> the final a got missed somewhere along the line, though
14:55:51 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekierka.
14:55:55 <ais523> he's good at finding missing letters from nicks
14:56:22 <asiekierka> Just pulled it out and scanned it, so i could send it IRC-wise to my nickname
14:57:41 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asiekierka[Cooki.
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14:58:02 <asiekierkCooking> Everyone that doesn't understand it please leave this chatroom
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14:59:38 <ehird> I've been here all this time
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15:02:26 <ehird> Keymaker redesigned his site, I notice.
15:02:43 <ehird> It's just a directory index now.
15:02:52 <ehird> [http://yiap.nfshost.com/index.php]
15:07:22 <ehird> wolframtones is a fun timewaster
15:08:22 <ais523> wait, Encyclopedia Britannica is becoming a wiki?
15:08:28 <ais523> is this an April Fool's joke, I wonder?
15:08:59 <ais523> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/biztech/battle-to-outgun-wikipedia-and-google/2009/01/22/1232471469973.html
15:09:19 <ehird> keyword: its online version
15:09:22 <ehird> Not the printed one, I assume.
15:09:28 <ais523> yes, although probably they'll backport changes
15:09:34 <ais523> besides, it's almost impossible to run a printed wiki
15:09:35 <ehird> "If I were to be the CEO of Google or the founders of Google I would be very [displeased] that the best search engine in the world continues to provide as a first link, Wikipedia," he said."Is this the best they can do? Is this the best that [their] algorithm can do?"
15:09:43 <ais523> all those crossings-out and tippex build up after a while
15:09:44 <ehird> Because Wikipedia is bad because I said so
15:09:50 <ais523> and you can't fit all that many people around the book
15:10:31 <ais523> Citizendium-style, it seems, they haven't gone /completely/ against type
15:11:50 <ehird> What would you call (x) from P'' in one uppercase letter?
15:12:38 <ais523> hmm... I know P'' but not its notation
15:12:41 <ais523> what does (x) do again?
15:13:52 <ehird> R ( R ) L ( r' ( L ( L ) ) r' L ) R r
15:13:56 <ehird> > [ > ] < [ − [ < [ < ] ] − < ] > +
15:14:10 <ais523> why do you need in one capital letter?
15:14:19 <ais523> given that it's inherently a two-different-places operation?
15:14:30 <ehird> P seems most logical to me, for parens.
15:14:56 <ais523> in Underlambda it is (or will be) w for while, but that's a lowercase letter
15:18:48 <ais523> ehird: it isn't properly specced yet
15:19:09 <ais523> I'm more interested in getting Underlambda right rather than having it ready quickly
15:21:10 <ais523> my other big new esolang project, besides Feather
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15:55:26 <ehird> of course, no parsing, it's for a genetic algorithm
15:58:30 <ais523> it's the opposite of r
15:58:30 <ais523> r increments, r' decrements
15:58:41 <ais523> and you decrement by incrementing one less times than the max
15:59:19 <ais523> P'' has a max value of n-1
15:59:23 <ais523> n is normally set to 2, but can be set higher
15:59:29 <ais523> and it's a different lang for each value of n
15:59:42 <ehird> I was going by infinite ints
16:00:02 <ais523> ehird: as they can only be incremented, not decremented, bignum P'' would be kind-of pointless...
16:00:09 <ehird> I'll interpret P''_256
16:00:18 <ehird> actually, that's cheating
16:00:23 <oklofok> would it be entirely pointless?
16:00:25 <ais523> are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF?
16:00:33 <ais523> oklofok: ah, that's actually an interesting question
16:00:43 <ais523> I'm not at all sure now
16:00:44 <ehird> 16:00 < ais523> are you doing P'' because it's more mathematical-looking than BF?
16:00:47 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure yes, but i don't instantly see why it couldn't let you do at least something
16:00:47 <ehird> simpler to implement
16:00:57 <ehird> run' :: State -> P -> State
16:00:58 <ehird> run' (t,h) R = (t, h+1)
16:00:58 <ehird> run' (t,h) L = (t',h')
16:00:58 <ehird> where t' = gTake h t ++ [(t !!! h) + 1] ++ gDrop h t
16:00:58 <ehird> h' = if h == 0 then 0 else h - 1
16:01:01 <ehird> run' s (C p q) = run' (run' s p) q
16:01:05 <ehird> | (t !!! h) == 0 = (t,h)
16:01:07 <ehird> | otherwise = run' (run' (t,h) q) (P q)
16:01:08 <ais523> it would effectively be BF with a set-to-1 command rather than + and -
16:01:10 <ehird> 9-line P'' implementation
16:01:35 <ehird> (!!!) = genericIndex
16:01:45 <ehird> Integral a=>[b]->a->b
16:01:49 <ais523> ah, nth element of a list
16:01:49 <ehird> i'm sure you can figure it out.
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16:01:57 <ehird> yes it's normally !!
16:01:59 <ehird> but that only takes Ints
16:02:01 <ehird> instead of Integers
16:02:13 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> yes it's normally !!
16:02:15 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> but that only takes Ints
16:02:15 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> instead of Integers
16:02:15 <oklofok> ehird: it's essentially !!
16:02:17 <ehird> 16:02 < ehird> so finite tape
16:02:20 <ais523> why can't they just take anything of numeric type?
16:02:27 <ehird> ais523: because haskell has warts, too
16:02:35 <ais523> impossible, it should be fixed
16:02:46 <ehird> done, said, easier than
16:02:50 <ais523> indexing with floats is obviously silly
16:02:56 <ais523> when you're dealing with Haskell lists
16:03:01 <ais523> (less silly in other langs, it actually works in JS)
16:03:26 <ais523> oklofok: it has arrays
16:03:29 <ais523> but they're basically just hash tables
16:03:35 <ais523> you can put any junk you like in the subscript and it works
16:03:55 <oklofok> yeah, that was more of a statement.
16:04:00 <ais523> there's no actual reason but efficiency to differ arrays and hashmaps
16:04:00 <ehird> if by clever you mean slow and hacky.
16:04:03 <oklofok> oklotalk generalizes it much better
16:04:06 <ehird> ais523: yes there is
16:04:09 <ehird> arrays don't have gaps.
16:04:30 <ais523> ehird: that's just an arbitrary restriction
16:04:30 <ehird> also, it fucks up iteration.
16:04:38 <ais523> and iteration still works just as well
16:04:44 <ehird> ais523: allowing arrays not to be an elephant is also an arbitrary restriction
16:04:49 <ehird> but it's part of the definition of arrays.
16:04:51 <oklofok> ais523: yes, that's arbitrary, but there are also things that are not arbitrary
16:05:01 <oklofok> like all merging, inserting and deleting
16:05:16 <oklofok> the behavior simply has to be different
16:05:18 <ais523> we should generalise those operations to hashmaps too
16:05:24 <ais523> a delete-adjust action, for instance
16:05:29 <oklofok> in fact hashmaps and functions are closer together than lists and hashmaps
16:05:54 <ais523> lists are different from arrays, though
16:06:03 <ais523> in that lists aren't really designed to be indexed
16:06:12 <ais523> and can be accessed from the start much more easily than from the end
16:06:37 <oklofok> ais523: that's *much* more arbitrary than the distinction ehird mentioned.
16:07:05 <ais523> for instance, when you delete from an array, which way do the elements shift?
16:07:07 <ais523> for a list it's obvious
16:07:19 <ais523> but it's not obvious that they should go left not right in an array, because they're symmetrical
16:07:21 <ehird> 16:07 < ehird> the end
16:07:22 <ehird> 16:07 < ais523> but it's not obvious th
16:07:27 <ehird> Python calls its arrays lists.
16:07:29 <ehird> You are talking about LINKED lists
16:07:34 <ehird> Please be aware of the difference
16:07:35 <ais523> yes, and Lisp-like lists
16:07:42 <ehird> ... which are linked lists.
16:07:52 <ais523> they're more like binary trees than arrays
16:07:57 <ehird> "list" != "linked list"
16:08:12 <ais523> ehird: well, if you insist on defining a list as an array of course they're the same
16:08:17 <ais523> IMO, Python naming here is just confusing
16:08:18 <oklofok> list should be used for arrays without the arrayish properties
16:09:03 <ais523> oklofok: I think I agree
16:09:16 <oklofok> arrays have a strongly typed feel to them
16:09:31 <ais523> also, I think lists and ring buffers are pretty similar
16:09:35 <ais523> whereas arrays and ring buffers aren't
16:10:34 <ais523> you can imagine a list which somehow contains itself, at the end
16:10:44 <oklofok> this is more of a philosophy question of course, the terms aren't that standard
16:11:07 <ais523> I think the fundamental difference is that arrays are inherently linked to (positive/nonnegative) integers
16:11:09 <oklofok> well, they are standard in that many ppl have an opinion on what they obviously mean
16:11:10 <ais523> as a method of indexing
16:11:18 <oklofok> but those opinions don't always agree
16:11:21 <ais523> and deleting elements from an array isn't really an intuitive operation at all
16:11:26 <ais523> it doesn't fit arrays, really
16:11:27 <ehird> not linked lists though
16:11:29 <ais523> because it involves renumbering
16:11:38 <ais523> deleting from a list, though, does make sense
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16:13:21 <oklofok> i need to start doing an unspecified thing ~
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16:34:54 <ehird> http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N64/squidvswhale.html
16:35:38 <ais523> does it answer 3 foxes vs. polar bear?
16:35:42 <ais523> I'll be wondering about that one for years, now
16:35:48 <ais523> and it would be inhumane to find out by experiment
16:35:55 <ais523> also, it's unlikely to happen in the wild...
16:36:05 <ehird> it's nothing to do with squids v whales
16:37:04 <ais523> unless a whale is a badly-configured web browser with no caching, and a squid is a sort of proxy, maybe?
16:37:27 <ehird> I think squid vs whale is the name of the column.
16:37:41 <ais523> I like my explanation bette
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17:04:03 <ehird> "In fact, although I have not tested Safari 3.1, I am relatively certain it will not render properly in any released browser. "
17:04:07 <ehird> -- http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/01/moving-the-goalposts
17:09:22 <ais523> ehird: someone tried to design a page that wouldn't render?
17:09:34 <ais523> apart from that SHORTTAGS one we had in here a while back?
17:09:39 <ehird> ais523: clicking the link helps
17:09:50 <ais523> yes, but I prefer to do my internetting over IRC and email
17:10:04 <ehird> then you don't get context, that's your loss
17:10:16 <ehird> or, I could pipe lynx -dump into here
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18:20:06 <ehird> Not notable enough to have a page. There are thousands of thousands books. A book must be very very notable to have a page(e.g. Bible, Quran, Dante's divine comedy etc etc).
18:20:12 <ehird> I wonder what this guy thinks of the Pokemon articles.
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19:17:45 <fizzie> Why would he mind those? There are less Pokemons than books.
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20:43:59 <oerjan> <ehird> he breathes, and he's a moron
20:44:19 <oerjan> erm wait he's not here
20:45:57 <Deewiant> enjoy the silence while it lasts
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20:46:59 <oerjan> the silence of the lambdas
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20:47:35 * oerjan wasn't going to say that but his finger decided to miss the s
20:50:02 <oerjan> <ais523> maybe oerjan has it
20:50:16 <oerjan> unlikely, my dialect drops final vowels all over the place
20:50:59 <oerjan> some of which may or may not be a's
20:51:35 <oerjan> s/all over the place/in infinitives/, really
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20:59:30 <oerjan> wait ais523 is not here either?
21:01:51 <oklofok> no one's here, maybe you should leave too.
21:02:33 <oklofok> i agree it's sad, but hey, you can't tell a goat to be sacrificed.
21:03:05 <oerjan> don't say that, it's remarkable what science can do
21:05:06 <oerjan> oh well, at least they weren
21:06:14 <oklofok> YOU TOOK THE WHITESPACE OUT LOL
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21:24:55 <ehird> My fucking ISP is unable to maintain DNS servers
21:26:03 -!- FireFly has joined.
21:27:42 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe time to enable a local dns server then?
21:27:50 <ehird> I'm using opendns.
21:27:57 <ehird> Even though it sucks too.
21:28:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I use a local recursive resolver.
21:28:25 <ehird> Aren't you special.
21:28:27 <AnMaster> that bypasses isp, no idea why that works
21:28:46 <AnMaster> I mean, why use opendns, when setting it up to query directly works just as well
21:29:07 <AnMaster> (tcpdump indicates it query root servers directly sometimes)
21:29:28 <ehird> Time to set up custom DNS server, maintain it [even though i really fucking don't want to bother with that], and do all this without access to DNS: days, weeks, who knows.
21:29:37 <ehird> Time to stick in the OpenDNS ip: 20 seconds.
21:31:40 <AnMaster> ehird, emerge bind; emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf; /etc/init.d/named start
21:32:24 <ehird> "emacs /etc/namedb/named.conf"
21:32:35 <ehird> "kill yourself for wasting so much fucking time"
21:32:38 <ehird> and the process stops there.
21:35:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> "emerge bind" <-- genlop (a tool analyzing emerge.log) says average merge time was 7 minutes and 23 seconds for bind on my system
21:35:35 <AnMaster> ehird, also why in such a hurry?
21:37:02 <ehird> because I'd rather put in the OpenDNS IPs in 20 seconds than wait hours compiling and configuring BIND for ABSOLUTELY NO GAIN WHATSOEVER other than a weird form of nerd mental masturbation?
21:37:17 <ehird> also, good fucking luck installing + configuring bind without any DNS
21:37:31 <ehird> won't start? oh snap good luck finding out why!
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21:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could just use host to query root servers directly
21:39:20 <AnMaster> or you could use some existing dns server you have installed
21:39:31 <ehird> Yes, everyone has a DNS server installed.
21:39:45 <ehird> AnMaster: now WHY would I do this over putting in the opendns IPs until my ISP gets its act together?
21:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well since OS X is based on *BSD I would assume so. bind is part of FreeBSD base
21:39:56 <ehird> Wow, I'd be a few hours without annoying search pages on invalid resolves
21:40:08 <ehird> Except I'd have wasted many more hours getting it working. What fun.
21:40:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it takes less than 30 minutes for me to set it up
21:40:50 <AnMaster> also there is dns over irc while you set it up: asking friends (like me) to resolve the domain for you
21:40:52 <ehird> And it takes me less than 30 seconds to put the OpenDNS IPs in.
21:41:10 <ehird> "friends (like me)" hahahah. And I couldn't connect to freenode, duh.
21:41:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well if you don't want it, fine, however it is useful even during normal operation
21:41:34 <ehird> Yes, I daily wish I ran my own DNS server.
21:41:34 <AnMaster> faster dns since it caches more locally
21:42:06 <ehird> 12:44:06 <oerjan> EHIRD MUST DIE
21:42:06 <ehird> 12:44:19 <oerjan> erm wait he's not here
21:42:06 <ehird> 12:45:57 <Deewiant> enjoy the silence while it lasts
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22:15:11 <oerjan> ehird: yeseitedoesebuteitecouldebeeworse
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22:17:55 <Slereah2> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/de/Dancing_cats.gif
22:18:15 <ehird> I clicked and saw a cat but it was stationary.
22:18:19 <ehird> Can I have my money back?
22:18:45 <oerjan> many people would like cats on their stationary
22:19:15 <ehird> Slereah2: my browser hates you :(
22:19:29 * oerjan wonders if he is thinking of the right word
22:20:37 <oerjan> oh it's spelled stationery
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22:50:21 <kerlo> In.Lojban,.you.can.use.dots.to.separate.words.
22:50:36 <kerlo> But--that--indicates--that--you--pronounce--it--like--this.
22:51:27 <oklofok> although i guess that's just "."
22:52:20 <kerlo> Well, it can affect the prosody of the preceding word.
22:52:52 <kerlo> "My.uncle,.Jack" and "My.uncle.Jack" are different.
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23:03:52 <oklofok> kerlo: err maybe in english. not in lojban
23:03:56 <oklofok> not that i know what prosody is.
23:04:07 <oklofok> i'm assuming it's something that makes what i said true.
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23:05:11 <kerlo> Prosody is the part of speech that you can't express with a list of words.
23:06:59 <kerlo> That is a very good example of a sentence consisting virtually entirely of prosody.
23:08:37 <kerlo> Had that that had that had had that that had had that had that that had, I would have had that.
23:09:05 <kerlo> Now I will tell you the grammar of the above sentence for make benefit.
23:09:20 <oklofok> why would you ruin a good puzzle for us
23:09:35 <oerjan> because he's EVIL, duh
23:09:55 <oklofok> had that "that" had that "had had" that that "had had" had that that had, i would have had that
23:10:21 <oklofok> i'm not sure that actually helped you see what parsing i meant ;)
23:11:20 <oerjan> had that bad hat that that that had had that bat had that hat hat
23:11:41 <kerlo> <noun phrase> ::= that <verb phrase>; <noun phrase> ::= that that <verb phrase>; <verb phrase> ::= had <noun phrase>; <verb phrase> ::= had had <noun phrase>; <sentence> ::= had <noun phrase> <verb phrase>, I would have had that.
23:11:51 <kerlo> That's the grammar of the above sentence.
23:11:58 <kerlo> Unfortunately, it's still an ambiguous grammar.
23:12:26 <kerlo> Also, I'm wrong in that sentences of the form "I like that had had ice cream." aren't actually valid.
23:12:27 <oklofok> how bout you put some parens in
23:12:49 <kerlo> Okay, I'll put parentheses in according to my incorrect grammar.
23:12:54 <oerjan> what what that that what that that what that that what that what would that what?
23:13:32 <kerlo> (had (that that (had (that (had had (that that (had had (that (had (that that had)))))))))), I would have had that.
23:14:10 <kerlo> I don't really feel like coming up with a better grammar.
23:14:30 <oklofok> i don't understand how a sentence can have its own grammar
23:14:49 <kerlo> It can't; that's a really tiny segment of English grammar that's sufficient for this sentence.
23:15:25 <oklofok> that's valid... what's the language again
23:15:31 <oerjan> that that that that that that that that that that that refers to refers to refers to refers to nothing
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23:24:11 <ehird> oklofok: should be intentional; isn't
23:25:23 <oerjan> should should be intentional isn't isn't intentional
23:27:16 <oklofok> ehird: wait actually, nm, there's no "+" instruction in the lang i'm thinking of. but, the structure looks the same
23:40:20 <ehird> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw/2008177548_pacificpendgame14.html
23:43:19 <ehird> he totally lost the game lol get it