00:07:26 <oklopol> IAmGreenAndAlsoF: i didn't read logs, are you ehird?
00:08:32 <oklopol> k. well. it's not very fun, it's mainly about doing simple arithmetic
00:08:47 <oklopol> okay, i'm only at level 33 sofar, because it's not very interesting.
00:09:26 <oklopol> well i did the levels before it on ~5 attempts, it's not like it took that long
00:09:39 <oklopol> yeah i've been thinking i should continue that
00:09:57 <oklopol> unfortunately: when :||||||||
00:10:18 <oklopol> i mean i took this electronics course
00:10:26 <oklopol> because i just take all kinds of random courses
00:10:31 <oklopol> and i don't know fuck about physics.
00:10:56 <oklopol> and the book is a scanned copy, because i'm sure as hell not gonna buy it
00:11:24 <oklopol> and i need to read quite a lot of it till friday
00:19:51 <oklopol> okay not arithmetic as such, the puzzles are about subset sum
00:28:08 <oklopol> and i don't call pointless easily.
01:04:13 <GregorR> What's the maximum acceleration a person could survive for an extended period ... obviously if you were in a spaceship accelerating at 1G indefinitely it would be perfectly comfortable, but how high does it get before people start bleeding and turning into pancakemen...
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01:17:45 <GregorR> If you were in a spaceship accelerating at 1G, it would feel just like gravity (but take a lot more energy). What's the maximum acceleration a ship could maintain for long periods before its human occupants go *squish* after fairly long periods of time?
01:21:53 <oklopol> ...why would they go squish?
01:24:15 <GregorR> I'm talking about acceleration, not velocity.
01:25:35 <oklopol> umm kay. that's what i thought you said.
01:28:47 <oklopol> GregorR: can you teach me the physics that lead to the squishing?
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01:30:22 <GregorR> All objects in motion have a tendency to stay in motion, and all objects at rest have a tendency to stay at rest. If you push on them to force them not to stay in motion/at rest, they will push back (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). When your body pushes back with, say, 100Gs of force, it will most certainly not remain a body for long.
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01:41:13 <GregorR> If your velocity is 0.99999999999999999999999973c, you'll get to the Andromeda galaxy in ten minutes 8-D
01:44:02 <oklopol> and if it's c, you'll already be there
01:44:51 <GregorR> Whoops, miscalculation, make that v = 0.999999999999999999999972c (one more 9)
01:44:56 <oklopol> BUT IF IT'S C++, YOU'LL PROBABLY *insert something funny *
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01:53:14 <MizardX> GregorR: 10 minutes on a clock inside or outside the vehicle?
01:53:41 <GregorR> 2.5 million years will have passed outside.
01:53:43 <oklopol> MizardX: galaxies aren't exactly 10 light years away
01:54:18 <ski__> (the milky way is not very far away)
01:54:55 <oklopol> ski__: what a significant point to make
01:55:24 <ski__> not that significant, i admit
01:56:42 <ski__> that might have been
01:56:54 <oklopol> WHY IS YOUR NICK NOT IN NORMAL FORM?
01:57:16 -!- oklopol has changed nick to kllooop.
01:57:19 <ski__> ask freenode why you can't be in more than 20 channels ?
01:57:50 <kllooop> that's a pretty omnipresent rule
01:57:57 -!- kllooop has changed nick to oklopoll.
01:58:07 <oklopoll> and by that i mean quakenet has the same limit
01:58:36 <oklopoll> it's probably so you'll have to choose, they want to teach you not to be greedy
01:58:39 <ski__> (my "real" nick is `ski', btw)
01:59:05 <oklopoll> i know i'm a #haskell regular idler
01:59:33 <oklopoll> i'm assuming it's combinators and not, say, skiing?
02:01:06 <ski__> (i couldn't come up with anything less silly when i started with irc in c:a 2000)
02:01:42 <oklopoll> well you could've use something that actually did something. except i'm not sure how much you can do without parens
02:02:07 <oklopoll> interesting question though, what can you do?
02:03:22 <oklopoll> well. i have a lecture in 4 hours, better have some sleep now prolly
02:03:25 <ski__> istr someone wrote a basic concatenative EDSL in haskell, using only application for composition of words
02:03:57 <ski__> possibly one could do something similar in combinatory logic, if one defined a few appropriate combinators
02:04:49 <ski__> Embedded Domain Specific Language
02:05:56 * ski__ idly wonders what oklopoll has lecture in ..
02:06:25 <ski__> (ok, bye, get some sleep :)
02:52:05 <kerlo> I don't like sk = ki. Let's change it.
02:52:45 <kerlo> %eval (e (s k) (k i) (Darn.) (Celebrate! Ponies and flowers and cuddles.))
02:52:46 <kerlobot> (Celebrate! Ponies and flowers and cuddles.)
02:52:53 <kerlo> Hey, they're not equal after all.
02:53:40 <kerlo> %eval ((k z) (y z))
02:54:47 <kerlo> Therefore, (s k) = [l (y) [l (z) z]] and (k i) = [l (y) [l (x) x]], if you evaluate subexpressions that are eventually going to be evaluated anyway.
02:55:16 <kerlo> %eval (hold ((s k) x) ((s k) z) ((k i) x) ((k i) z))
02:55:16 <kerlobot> (hold ((s k) x) ((s k) z) ((k i) x) ((k i) z))
02:55:49 <kerlo> %eval (((s k) x) N)
02:55:52 <kerlo> %eval (((s k) z) N)
02:55:58 <kerlo> %eval (((k i) x) N)
02:56:01 <kerlo> %eval (((k i) z) N)
02:56:08 <kerlo> Wow, I didn't expect that.
02:56:27 <kerlo> %eval (((s k) y) N)
02:56:30 <kerlo> %eval (((k i) y) N)
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05:28:13 <GregorR> Wow, NOBODY understands length contraction (or I don't, but I really think I'm right here :P )
05:34:24 <MizardX> space-time bends by the effect of speed alone...
06:26:38 <Slereah> Space time bends for the slightest thing, MizardX.
06:35:13 <GregorR> Space-time doesn't bend, that implies that it's a global phenomenon. Space-time is perceived differently from different [inertial] reference frames.
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06:40:51 <GregorR> There is no Earth, there is no solar system, there is no galaxy, there is no space time. There is only one truth: There is only the spoon.
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07:05:16 <fizzie> I've heard that Uri Geller can bend the space-time with his mind only.
07:14:41 <GregorR> Yay f**ed up relativity: to get to a location that's N lightyears away in N years (yes, N==N), how fast do you need to go? Answer: sqrt(0.5) times the speed of light GWAR
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07:17:17 <Asztal> but how much time would that be from a bystander's perspective? :)
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08:01:06 <Ilari> N * sqrt(2) years?
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08:46:27 <oerjan> <oklopoll> well you could've use something that actually did something. except i'm not sure how much you can do without parens
08:46:51 <oerjan> hm. starting with i or k is uninteresting
08:47:07 <oerjan> sk is also uninteresting
08:50:39 <oerjan> sixy -> y(xy), which is uninteresting if y is k or i
08:51:58 <oerjan> and by "uninteresting" i mean reduces to something simpler without parentheses than the original
08:53:09 <oerjan> siis -> ss, uninteresting
08:56:10 <oerjan> siksxy -> s(ks)xy -> ksy(xy) -> s(xy)
08:56:53 <oerjan> s tends to make things more complicated of course. i wonder if you can blow up using only those
08:58:09 <oerjan> sssssss -> ss(ss)sss -> ss(sss)ss -> ss(ssss)s -> ss(sssss)
08:58:18 <oerjan> i sense a pattern, and no
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10:36:07 <ais523> it's off to work we go?
10:36:55 <ehird> wonder if im still klined
10:37:20 <ais523> so am I, intensive modules are wearing
10:40:18 <ehird> i think i had a dream about this channel
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10:40:58 <ehird> i was using my old client :s
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10:41:23 <ehird> yeah that was the one notable thing
10:43:39 <oerjan> I Have a Dream [citation needed]
10:44:40 <ais523> I had a dream a while back where a polar bear turned up on the doorstep to our house, which was useful because we'd forgotten to feed the foxes
10:45:26 <ais523> strange, really, I don't even own a trio of foxes
10:45:32 <ais523> and if I did I probably wouldn't keep them in the fight
10:45:44 <ais523> I'm dubious as to whether a polar bear or three foxes would win a fight anyway
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11:36:33 <ais523> heh, thedailywtf sidebar has an argument about whether when all of the territory of Tuvalu ends up underwater, the .tv subdomain will still exist
11:37:00 <ehird> so many things use it
11:37:14 <ais523> it would be kind-of funny if it didn't, though
11:37:33 <ais523> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/10875/190075.aspx#190075
11:37:42 <ehird> to be honest, country tlds are just random namespaces to me, since I don't believe in country-based segregation of dns
11:38:06 <ehird> I love that tooltip
11:38:23 <ehird> hilarious to the max
11:38:24 <ais523> well, if the country ceases to exist, does its DNS entry?
11:38:51 <ehird> Well... it gets obsoleted, but generally if enough people use it ICANN fail to bully them effectively to use another one, so they keep it around.
11:40:02 <ais523> the registrars would jump at the chance to force everyone with a .tv to go to a new domain, I reckon
11:40:05 <ais523> free money right there
11:40:18 <ehird> It's marketed by them as Super Valuable User Experience
11:40:25 <ehird> This kind of stuff has happened before
11:40:29 <ehird> ais523: you can still register .su
11:40:32 <ehird> that's Soviet Union
11:40:36 <ehird> they tried to get rid of it
11:40:44 <ehird> but people liked it and got angry.
11:40:50 <ehird> [and upped the prices...]
11:41:17 <ehird> essentially, obsolete ccTLDs just have to keep getting registrations in to ward of ICANN
11:41:30 <ehird> .tv is popular so they'll have no problem
11:43:03 <ehird> ais523: the Five tv channel which I presume you know about's main domain is five.tv
11:43:06 <ehird> that's pretty high-profile
11:43:23 <ais523> anyway, if the nation of Tuvalu itself survives whilst having no territory it'll make an interesting argument in the nomic=micronation? debate
11:43:39 <ais523> and yes, I used to watch Channel 5 back when it had a better name and was actually good
11:44:25 <ais523> it was really well designed to start with, a predictable schedule you could memorise (news every hour, particular sorts of programs in particular slots...)
11:44:34 <ais523> and it had lots of interesting program choice too
11:44:50 <ehird> tv is a bit obsolete now, IMO
11:45:23 <ais523> yes, I hardly watch it
11:45:33 <ehird> the idea of following someone else's schedule to watch a program they want you to see, (and with non-BBC channels, copious amounts of irritating adverts in between) is frankly quite old fashioned
11:45:37 <ais523> more bandwidth-efficient than internet for things it's designed for, though
11:45:47 <ehird> yes, broadcast is unfortunately being abandoned
11:46:05 <ais523> anyway, time to get lunch
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12:08:37 <ehird> *** Banned: Your bot is still broken and reconnects way too fast and too often.
12:08:41 <ehird> Go. Fuck. Yourself. Freenode.
12:08:44 <ehird> I don't have a fucking bot.
12:08:51 <ehird> The only connecting is when I f ire up miau to see if I'm still klined.
12:09:07 <ehird> And my bouncer was NEVER OFFLINE FOR AGES when it was klined.
12:09:11 <ehird> Fuck you fuck you FUCK YOU.
12:09:42 <ais523> hmm... maybe the bouncer is doing frequent reconnects for some reason?
12:09:48 <ais523> as it's a bouncer, it would hide that from you
12:09:58 <ais523> just like it hides your reconnects from the channel
12:10:06 <ehird> it tells you about discos/recos
12:10:09 <ehird> and besides, I checked the logs
12:10:12 <ehird> no disconnects or reconnects
12:10:23 <ehird> the only other client on this server is bsmnt_bot
12:10:32 <ais523> not even on the server?
12:10:32 <ehird> see the logs, I'm the one who gets klined
12:10:35 <ehird> so it's not bsmnt_bot
12:10:46 <ehird> ais523: rutian runs miau (not anymore, ofc) and bsmnt_bot
12:10:49 <ais523> you might have disconnected/reconnected a lot without ever joining #esoteric
12:10:58 <ehird> because i was in #esoteric
12:10:58 <ais523> so it wouldn't show up in the logs
12:11:06 <ehird> i DID read the logs
12:13:47 <ehird> maybe I should put up a bot that does do that
12:13:47 <ehird> leave it up for a few days
12:13:48 <ehird> then tell them I fixed it
12:14:00 <ehird> yeah that probably wouldn't work
12:14:10 <ais523> did you reply to them with an explanation that the account klined wasn't even running a bot?
12:14:37 <ehird> Indeed, I did that even before this new ban message.
12:17:29 <oerjan> have you asked them for evidence?
12:18:29 <ehird> I might. Not that I expect that to help.
12:19:08 <oerjan> well then it won't. nothing ever helps if you don't believe in it.
12:22:19 <oerjan> if bsmnt_bot's quits and joins are the cause of this (overreaction, but still) would putting it on the bouncer help?
12:22:45 <oerjan> hm the replay might mess up things
12:23:05 <ais523> replay can be turned off
12:23:15 <ais523> the bouncer ehird and I used to use only replayed on request
12:23:24 <ais523> although the request was in my startup script
12:24:47 <ehird> if bsmnt_bot's quits and joins are the cause of this
12:24:50 <ehird> it's not running any more
12:25:02 <oerjan> is the bouncer running?
12:26:11 <oerjan> is all of eso-std.org klined, or just you?
12:27:08 <ehird> I'm not sure, possibly all, but in the logs, I was the one who quit as (K-Lined)
12:27:14 <ehird> and the bouncer is not running.
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12:54:11 <ehird> oklopollololololol
12:54:26 <ais523> is an oklopoll a sort of vote?
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12:54:56 <ais523> Oklopol: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic
12:55:19 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic.
12:57:41 -!- Slereah has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
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12:59:00 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic.
12:59:05 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
12:59:09 <ehird> just wanted to add the ;
12:59:28 <ais523> can you remove the extra space after c) too?
12:59:54 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
13:03:59 <ehird> oklofok: oklotalk-- bot plz
13:05:14 <oklofok> it's hardcoded to quakenet atm
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13:06:08 <ehird> what's yer command prefix den
13:06:27 <oklofok> :: (+ "still no " "support for anything?")
13:06:28 <oktabot> still no support for anything?
13:06:30 <ehird> um I think I forgot the syntax
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13:07:41 <ais523> oklofok: how do you do iteration?
13:08:00 <ehird> ais523: beware, Things double as objects.
13:08:04 <ehird> oklofok: do you still have my cons-class?
13:08:06 <ais523> is -> purely a lambda?
13:08:10 <ehird> that thing was nice
13:08:12 <ais523> or is it more complicated?
13:08:13 <ehird> ais523: no, it's a Thing match
13:08:23 <ehird> ais523: coed samples:
13:08:28 <ehird> ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt
13:08:33 <oklofok> ptrn is matched on whatever is in _
13:08:37 <ehird> basically {} is a function and an object
13:08:44 <ehird> oklofok: ssh, the examples are enough for anyone
13:09:10 <oklofok> i was actually thinking i'd add like at least somekinda spec stubs in the /oklopol/ examples?
13:09:35 <ais523> by inspection, that seems most likely to be the thing implementing recursion
13:09:49 <oklofok> ais523: you can do recursion by name as well.
13:10:03 <ehird> not in objects tho
13:10:24 <ehird> :: (= cons {(-> [h t] {(-> [$pb :] [h t]) (-> $car h) (-> $cdr t) (-> [$setcar h] h) (-> [$setcdr t] t) (-> [$! 0] h) (-> [$! n] (! t (- n 1))) (-> $length (+ 1 (length t)))})})
13:10:28 <ehird> :: (= nil {(-> [$pb :] $f) (-> $car $f) (-> $cdr $f) (-> [$setcar h] $f) (-> [$setcdr t] $f) (-> [$! n] $f) (-> $length 0) })
13:10:39 <ehird> :: (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil)))
13:10:46 <ehird> :: (car (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))))
13:10:49 <ehird> :: (cdr (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))))
13:10:57 <oklofok> i realized the other day that one thing i definitely should've had in oklotalk-- is umm err liek. setting a dynamic variable
13:11:02 <ehird> :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 0)
13:11:05 <ehird> :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 1)
13:11:07 <ehird> :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 2)
13:11:09 <ehird> :: (! (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 3)
13:11:15 <ais523> oklofok: not even by implementing monads by hand?
13:11:18 <ehird> :: (length (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))))
13:11:42 <ehird> i wrote that cons/nil ^.^
13:11:49 <oklofok> ais523: you can't set dynamic variables as the language implements them, stepping onto interpretation level allows you to do anything in any language.
13:12:09 <ehird> oklofok: well, any tc lang
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13:12:10 <ais523> I wonder if monads by hand counts as interpretation level?
13:12:12 <oklofok> ais523: yeah btw that's a pretty fun example the one on /oklopol/
13:12:20 <oklofok> i made the sort and the rational class
13:12:25 <ehird> yeah it implements its own numer class
13:12:28 <ehird> that you can use like regular ones
13:12:35 <oklofok> so it's sorting rationals entirely from scratch
13:12:44 <oklofok> lists, sorting and rationals synthetic
13:12:51 <ehird> oklofok: although that qs is the functional one and so not really qs.
13:13:04 <oklofok> ehird: well yes, i read the article too
13:13:45 <ehird> as in, (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
13:13:53 <ehird> i'm sure you can work that out
13:14:15 <ehird> oklofok: what is the array syntax again
13:14:22 <ais523> having that in your stdlib is kind-of cheating for implementing quicksort, though
13:14:36 <ehird> many langs have filter
13:14:40 <ehird> it's partition that's cheating
13:14:41 <oklofok> ais523: well it's implemented in oklotalk
13:14:54 * ais523 accidentally cut the power supply to their monitor
13:15:02 <ehird> ais523: also note that qs works on conses
13:15:03 <ais523> good thing it wasn't the CPU...
13:15:05 <oklofok> var_map["ftr"]=ofunc("(-> [p (: (@ h (tst p)) t)] (+ [h] (' p t))) (-> [p (: h t)] (' p t)) []","ftr")
13:15:12 <ehird> because $! and length were defined
13:15:24 <oklofok> ais523: you could just copypaste that in there.
13:15:34 <ehird> :: (ftr {$f} [1 2 3])
13:15:35 <ehird> :: (ftr {$t} [1 2 3])
13:15:45 <oklofok> the problem is you can't do imperative stuff really, which you should be able to do
13:15:53 <oklofok> this is because the lvalue system is degenerate in --
13:15:58 * ais523 is pondering how to make a botloop, as always
13:16:22 <ais523> how does string quoting work in oklotalk?
13:16:34 <oklofok> ais523: very degenerate :<
13:16:49 <oklofok> the whole object system is kinda ugly, i was mainly just going for getting it extendable
13:16:58 <oklofok> should integrate strings and lists at some point
13:16:58 <ais523> oklofok: " to " is a raw string?
13:17:03 <ais523> or is there an escaping syntax?
13:17:15 <oklofok> ais523: i'm not sure whether there are, but i assume yes
13:17:26 <oklofok> i just remember strings were really stupid.
13:17:47 <ais523> hmm... my triple-quotes seem to have confused it
13:18:11 <oklofok> it just evaluates the first
13:18:14 <ehird> and the last expression is taken
13:18:26 <ehird> and quotes aren't quo0ted in their output
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13:18:45 <ehird> 13:18 < ehird> thus
13:18:50 <ehird> 13:18 < ehird> :: 1 2 3
13:18:50 <ehird> 13:18 < oktabot> 3
13:20:07 <ais523> :: (map {"\""+_+"\""} [1 2 3])
13:20:25 <ais523> :: (map {"\""+_+"\""} ["1" "2" "3"])
13:20:48 <ais523> :: (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"])
13:21:14 <ais523> :: (fold {+} "\"" (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"]))
13:21:14 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:21:33 <ais523> :: (fold {+} (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"]) "\"")
13:21:33 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:21:45 <oklofok> also {+} is a constant function that returns +
13:21:46 <ehird> {+} wouldn't work.
13:21:47 <ais523> ah, if there isn't why would there be that particular error?
13:21:57 <ehird> because you have too many applications
13:21:59 <ehird> :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa)
13:22:03 <ehird> :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa aaaaaaa)
13:22:03 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:22:07 <ehird> :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaa)
13:22:08 <ais523> :: (fold + "\"" (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"]))
13:22:08 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:22:09 <ehird> :: (aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa)
13:22:14 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:22:16 <ais523> :: (foldl + "\"" (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"]))
13:22:17 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:22:27 <ais523> well, let's implement a fold if there isn't one already
13:22:29 <oklofok> ais523: functions are either monadic or dyadic
13:22:36 <ehird> fold is trivial, look
13:22:40 <ais523> and ok, that's an interesting restriction
13:22:49 <oklofok> you see this is just a simple sexp syntax over an infix system.
13:22:55 <ais523> I should implement total from Underload, it's like fold but with two args
13:23:47 <ais523> what are arrays/lists syntactic sugar for?
13:23:53 <ais523> how do I head/tail them?
13:23:59 <ais523> or do I have to rely on ehird cons cells?
13:24:10 <oklofok> ais523: well you can pattern match on them
13:24:22 <oklofok> but i'm not sure you can actively cut them...
13:24:32 <ais523> pattern matching will do
13:24:38 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> l (f (! l 0
13:24:42 <ehird> that's as far as I've written
13:24:44 <ehird> feel free to continue
13:24:55 <ais523> :: (-> (: a b) [1 2 3])
13:25:03 <ais523> ok, that was surprising
13:25:09 <ais523> :: (-> (: a b) [1 2 3])
13:25:21 <oklofok> ais523: well i'm not sure : means anythin.
13:25:24 <ehird> maybe you should learn oklotalk :s
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13:25:34 <ais523> ehird: what do you think I'm doing?
13:25:39 <oklofok> i can see if there's a beheader....
13:25:47 <ehird> (-> a b) pattern matches on the value of _
13:25:56 <ehird> and force a return if it matches
13:26:05 <ehird> so you need them in {} to be useful
13:26:15 <ais523> :: ({(-> (: a b) [a b])} [1 2 3])
13:26:20 <oklofok> :: ({(-> (: a b) a)} [1 2 3 4])
13:26:41 <ehird> huray now we sing songs of the hello
13:26:51 <ehird> 13:18 < ehird> :: 1 2 3
13:26:51 <ehird> 13:18 < oktabot> 3
13:27:00 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> l (f (! l 0
13:27:20 <oklofok> :: (! [1 2 3 4 5 2 34 12 4 2 5 2 4 23 21] 10)
13:27:22 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> (: a b) (: (f a) (' b)))})})
13:27:31 <oklofok> there's an indexing operator it seems :D
13:27:31 <ehird> :: ((fold + 0) [1 2 3])
13:27:47 <oktabot> [[1 4] [1 5] [1 6] [2 4] [2 5] [2 6] [3 4] [3 5] [3 6]]
13:27:57 <oklofok> THERE'S A CARTESIAN PRODUCT AND NO ONE TOLD ME
13:28:09 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f i] {(-> [] i) (-> (: a b) (: (f a) (' b)))})})
13:28:09 <oklofok> :: (* [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
13:28:21 <ehird> :: ((fold + 0) [])
13:28:25 <ehird> :: ((fold + 0) [1])
13:28:35 <oklofok> that's a good question.....
13:28:45 <ais523> :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [x f] x)} + [1 2 3 4 5])
13:28:51 <ais523> hmm... not quite right
13:29:13 <oklofok> that's probably the problem
13:29:35 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (: (f a) (' f b)))})
13:29:42 <ais523> :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [x f] x)} [1 2 3 4 5] +)
13:29:42 <oktabot> An error: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'list'
13:29:45 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] [(f a) (' f b)])})
13:29:49 <ehird> :: (fold + [1 2 3])
13:29:52 <ais523> my problem was I got the args the wrong way round
13:30:04 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (f a (' f b))})
13:30:04 <oktabot> An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1.
13:30:08 <ehird> :: (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (f a (' f b)))})
13:30:12 <ehird> :: (fold + [1 2 3])
13:30:22 <oklofok> "@ row 1", what a great irc bot feature!
13:30:35 <ehird> :: (fold * [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
13:30:35 <oktabot> [[1 4] [1 5] [1 6] [2 4] [2 5] [2 6] [3 4] [3 5] [3 6]]
13:30:40 <ehird> :: (fold * [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
13:30:40 <oktabot> [[1 [4 7]] [1 [4 8]] [1 [4 9]] [1 [5 7]] [1 [5 8]] [1 [5 9]] [1 [6 7]] [1 [6 8]] [1 [6 9]] [2 [4 7]] [2 [4 8]] [2 [4 9]] [2 [5 7]] [2 [5 8]] [2 [5 9]] [2 [6 7]] [2 [6 8]] [2 [6 9]] [3 [4 7]] [3 [4 8]]
13:30:40 <ais523> :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [[x] f] x)} [1 2 3 4 5] +)
13:30:40 <oktabot> An error: Atm instance has no attribute 'call'
13:30:45 <ais523> :: ({(-> [(: h t) f] (f h (' t f))) (-> [[x] f] x)} [1 2 3 4 5] +)
13:30:45 <oktabot> An error: Atm instance has no attribute 'call'
13:30:47 <ehird> ais523: give up, I beat you :D
13:31:09 <ehird> i mean, that's ind of right
13:31:22 <ais523> anyway, that's total not fold
13:31:22 <ehird> (= fold {(-> [f [a]] a) (-> [f (: a b)] (f a (' f b)))})
13:31:32 <ehird> well fold is cooler :D
13:31:35 <ais523> although you can implement fold from total just by putting an extra element on the end of the list
13:31:49 <ehird> fyi, two-argument fold
13:32:01 <ais523> yes, I just like to give it a different name
13:32:14 <ehird> total is misleading, it does fold
13:32:20 <ehird> arguably, the fold-with-default needs a special name
13:32:55 <ehird> :: (fold fold [+ [1 2 3]])
13:33:04 <ehird> :: (fold fold [+ [1 2 3] + [1 2 3]])
13:33:05 <oklofok> errr, that's just confusing.
13:33:16 <ehird> :: (fold fold [+ + [1 2 3]])
13:33:22 <ais523> :: (fold fold [fold [+ [1 2 3]]])
13:33:33 <ehird> ais523: so, it's application?
13:33:39 <ais523> :: (fold fold [fold [fold [+ [1 2 3]]]])
13:33:43 <ais523> ehird: of course it is
13:33:46 <ehird> (fold fold [x y]) -> (x y)
13:33:47 <ais523> when you have a two-arg list
13:33:49 <oklofok> OKLOTALK-- ONLY MAKES SENSE WHEN USED NICELY.
13:34:08 <ais523> oklofok: no, that's inherent in the definition of defaultless fold
13:34:12 <ais523> it would work just as well in Haskell
13:34:40 <oklofok> ais523: you sure haskell likes lists with functions and values in them?
13:34:44 <ehird> as [(+),[1,2,3]] is invalid
13:34:49 <ais523> oh, forgot about the strict typing
13:34:49 <ehird> as lists are monotyperated
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13:34:59 <ehird> conclusion: this is AWESOME BEANS PLUS.
13:35:02 <ais523> it would work in Visual Haskell
13:35:07 <oklofok> how can people forget haskell is strict about types
13:35:08 <ais523> which has a Variant type, and is otherwise identical
13:35:16 <ehird> haskell has a variant type
13:35:22 <ais523> oklofok: because I've used OCaml
13:35:22 <oklofok> that's what haskell is, being pedantic about types
13:35:33 <ehird> also http://www.haskell.org/visualhaskell/
13:35:34 <ais523> Haskell is a breath of fresh air compared to it in terms of type dicipline
13:35:44 <ais523> ehird: well, I was just trying to pun on Visual Basic
13:35:57 * Hiato wonders who it was that used arch here
13:36:02 <ehird> Hiato: too many idiots.
13:36:06 <ehird> mostly AnMaster :P
13:36:22 <ais523> Hiato: AnMaster ported C-INTERCAL to Arch
13:36:27 <ais523> although I don't know if he actually uses it
13:36:48 <ais523> ehird: well, just a build library
13:36:49 <ehird> he just added some lines into a packagefile.
13:36:54 <ais523> porting is easy if you don't have to change the source
13:37:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I use arch on one system. And yes it was just making a package
13:37:20 <AnMaster> so porting would be the wrong word
13:38:58 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1" "2" "3"]))
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13:40:35 <ehird> :: "["+(fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1""2""3"]))+"]"
13:40:35 <oktabot> An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1.
13:40:46 <ehird> :: (("["+(fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ _ "\""))} ["1""2""3"])))+"]")
13:40:46 <oktabot> An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1.
13:40:50 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(-> "\"" "\"\\\"\" ") (-> "\\" "\"\\\\\" ") (-> x (+ "\"" (+ _ "\"")))} ["1" "2" "3"]))
13:40:57 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(-> "\"" "\"\\\"\" ") (-> "\\" "\"\\\\\" ") (-> x (+ "\"" (+ _ "\" ")))} ["1" "2" "3"]))
13:41:06 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(-> "\"" "\"\\\"\" ") (-> "\\" "\"\\\\\" ") (-> x (+ "\"" (+ _ "\" ")))} ["1" "2" "3" "\"" "\\"]))
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13:42:17 <ehird> oklotalk-- is for real men
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13:43:27 <ehird> :: (= range {(-> [x x] -> []) (-> [x y] ([x] + (range (x+1) y)))})
13:43:27 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:43:36 <ehird> :: (= range {(-> [x x] []) (-> [x y] ([x] + (range (x+1) y)))})
13:43:37 <oktabot> An error: Application consists of 2 or 3 expressions.
13:43:46 <oklofok> :: (= .. {(-> [a a] [1]) (-> [a b] (+ [a] (' (+ a 1) b)))})
13:44:04 <oklofok> :: (= .. {(-> [a a] [a]) (-> [a b] (+ [a] (' (+ a 1) b)))})
13:44:12 <oktabot> An error: maximum recursion depth exceeded
13:45:05 <oklofok> currently all handles all except for atoms
13:45:14 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ((-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)) "\""))} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ]))
13:45:14 <oktabot> An error: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'clbl'
13:45:37 <oklofok> ais523: i'm not sure what that means.
13:45:47 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)) "\"")} _)} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ]))
13:45:48 <oktabot> An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1.
13:45:48 <oklofok> i mean that's an unwrapped python error
13:46:06 <oklofok> ((->... doesn't look right
13:46:25 <oklofok> you clearly have paren errors there
13:46:30 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)} _) "\"")} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ]))
13:46:30 <oktabot> An error: Unmatching parens @ row 1.
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13:46:43 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)} _) "\""))} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ]))
13:46:50 <ais523> :: (fold + (map {(+ "\"" (+ ({(-> "\"" "\\\"") (-> "\\" "\\\\") (-> x x)} _) "\" "))} ["1" "2" "\"" "\\" "3" ]))
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13:51:34 <FireFly> "There are 4 primitive datatypes: integer, string, list, atom and thing."
13:53:23 <ehird> oklotalk-- is one of my favourite languages
13:53:54 <oklofok> i wanna implement some muture :<<<
13:54:57 <ehird> wut is muture again
13:55:12 <oklofok> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/muture.txt
13:55:25 <oklofok> it's the search thingie stuff
13:56:30 <oklofok> ">> expr" maximizes expr given the some nondeterministic choices the interp can make in evaluating expre.
13:56:52 <oklofok> \list means an elem of list
13:59:25 <oklofok> the problem is of course it's pretty goddamn hard to implement, tried once, crapped my pants.
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16:51:50 <impomatic> I've just implemented RSSB in Redcode and I'm looking for a new project
17:01:05 <impomatic> Any suggestions. I'd prefer stack or cell based, minimal instruction set and relative addressing!
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17:03:59 <ehird> Well, bf fits that but is boring.
17:07:17 <Slereah> Someone already did brainfuck in everything
17:08:39 <impomatic> I want one of these for esoteric programming langs http://www.levenez.com/lang/lang.pdf :-)
17:09:46 <Slereah> Interpreter or interpretee?
17:11:10 <impomatic> The interpreter will be written in Redcode
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17:42:26 <oerjan> yoohoo i've got a part in the topic
17:42:49 <oerjan> tip of the hat to you Mr. ais523
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17:49:11 <MizardX> impomatic: Pick and choose -> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list
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17:52:18 <oerjan> <oklofok> i can see if there's a beheader....
17:52:37 <ais523> hmm... so who's impomatic, then?
17:52:44 <oerjan> impomatic: there's also the random page button
17:52:47 <ais523> this channel is getting new members so fast it's scary
17:53:09 <impomatic> For now I've looked through the Hello World implementations for a language I like the look of
17:53:10 <oerjan> since most pages are on a single language, should be nearly the same
17:53:41 <ais523> and if it hits something you aren't looking for, you can always click again
17:54:09 <impomatic> ais523: new here. I'm a redcode programmer
17:54:15 <oerjan> hm hello world is not good for unlambda, say, the structure is trivial
17:54:32 <oerjan> so doesn't really show it
17:54:36 <ais523> oerjan: hello world works best to show how languages manage string handling, and what the basic syntax is
17:54:51 <ais523> I mean, lots of different languages could just have "Hello, world!" as a hello world program
17:54:57 <ais523> in all sorts of different paradigms
17:55:15 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
17:55:19 <ais523> three rather different langs
17:55:23 <ais523> and yet the programs look pretty similar
17:55:42 <ais523> 99bob is at least good for control flow
17:56:15 <oerjan> impomatic: if you're interested in redcode might i suggest FuckYourBrane (iirc)?
17:56:31 <ais523> but there's a fatal bug in it if you don't limit program length
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17:56:48 <ais523> there's also Brainfuck Joust, which has become popular over at Agora recently
17:56:52 <ais523> someone should add it to the esowiki, really
17:57:10 <oerjan> ais523: well the bf hello world with ! is cheating
17:57:22 <ais523> without ! I don't have it memorised, though
17:57:29 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help
17:57:38 <ais523> and why is there not a hello world in fungot's program list?
17:57:39 <fungot> ais523: for s in (find prefix -type fnord do if -z instrarrayid then echo " /star does not point to get_install" then echo " double fnord else fnord
17:57:47 <fungot> ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+
17:57:59 <ais523> hmm... that's not the whole program
17:58:07 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:58:17 <ais523> IMO, BF's strong point is simple text processing
17:59:25 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:59:33 <oerjan> ^def hw bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
17:59:59 <ais523> I was going to ask if that's the esowiki's version
18:00:12 <ais523> it looks like it, it has too many loops to be the EgoBot version
18:00:13 <impomatic> oerjan: thanks, I'll take a look shortly
18:00:33 <oerjan> yeah it doesn't use the several cell initialization
18:01:12 <oerjan> fizzie: is it necessary to save new commands explicitly?
18:01:25 <ais523> you could always read the source to find out
18:01:27 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
18:02:53 * ais523 decides that right now, he /is/ insane enough to find the particular relevant bit of fungot's code
18:02:54 <fungot> ais523: i'm already sobbing!!
18:03:46 <oerjan> fungot: how rational of you
18:03:47 <fungot> oerjan: they really don't dare open anything else for some time now i know smthg abt the differences fnord mit-scheme n other schemes too.
18:05:00 <oerjan> btw about earlier this morning - does anyone know a non-terminating ski expression without parentheses?
18:05:18 <oerjan> (when i was talking to myself)
18:05:37 <ais523> hmm... which way does SKI associate when written normally?
18:05:47 <ais523> I'm far too used to Unlambda to know that off by heart
18:05:57 <ais523> as in, SII = ((S I) I) ?
18:06:37 <ais523> well, there isn't an obvious solution that I can see
18:06:41 <ais523> although there might well be a subtle one
18:06:48 <ais523> do you think just fuzzing would discover one?
18:06:53 <oerjan> starting with sii was useless at least
18:07:12 <ais523> because you may as well just write whatever it's applied to twice
18:07:30 <oerjan> and just s's didn't work, even though s's tend to make things complicated in general
18:07:36 <ais523> ah, I was wondering about just Ss
18:07:52 <ais523> K is a simplifier, although simplifiers may help for loops
18:07:56 <oerjan> <oerjan> sssssss -> ss(ss)sss -> ss(sss)ss -> ss(ssss)s -> ss(sssss)
18:07:57 <ais523> and S is a complicator
18:09:51 <oerjan> summing up from this morning, it must start with ss, siks or siss
18:09:59 <fizzie> It is necessary to use ^save, yes.
18:10:00 <oerjan> anything else simplifies
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18:10:43 <ais523> let's see... we know it starts with s
18:10:47 <ais523> as starting with i is redundant
18:10:53 <ais523> and starting with k is doubly redundant
18:11:05 <ais523> therefore, it's S x y z and possibly more combinators
18:11:10 <oerjan> starting with sk is also redundant
18:11:11 <ais523> which is ((x z) (y z))
18:11:51 <ais523> and starting with sii we've already demonstrated is redundant
18:11:59 <oerjan> and i looked at si this morning
18:12:29 <oerjan> and x!=i as you noticed
18:12:30 <ais523> where z is the next term
18:13:07 <ais523> oerjan: well, I think serialised SKI counts as a new esolang
18:13:14 <ais523> I wonder if it's usable, or if it's a new subtle cough?
18:14:23 <ais523> what if it starts with ss?
18:14:35 <oerjan> siks = s(ks), siss = s(ss)
18:14:55 <ais523> which doesn't evaluate further
18:15:06 <ais523> ssxyz = (s y) (x y) (z)
18:15:16 <oerjan> yeah that was the trouble with just s's, tend to gobble up arguments
18:15:33 <ais523> it becomes (yz)((xy)z)
18:15:49 <ais523> I think the trick may be to s a lot to generate complicated bracketing patterns
18:15:54 <ais523> then after that fill it with an s/k/i mix
18:16:00 <ais523> to get the arguments into the pattern we need
18:17:36 <ais523> I think I'm beginning to spot a pattern here
18:17:56 <Slereah> What's going on with the birds?
18:18:03 <ais523> not birds in particular
18:18:12 <ais523> the problem is to make an SKI infinite loop
18:18:18 <ais523> with the restriction that the entire thing has to left-associate
18:18:33 <ais523> so sii(sii) is out because it needs that pair of parens
18:21:58 <oerjan> "Flattening Combinators: Surviving Without Parentheses, Chris Okasaki, JFP03"
18:22:29 <ais523> oerjan: does it just use backquotes instead, I wonder?
18:22:52 <Slereah> Is unlambda that popular that people know of those conventions though?
18:23:02 <Slereah> I don't recall PN with ` anywhere else
18:23:07 <ais523> although I know I think of combinators with backquotes not parens
18:23:08 <oerjan> i think that's unlikely for a JFP submission...
18:24:12 <ais523> oerjan: can't you read postscript?
18:24:48 <ais523> I have at least two postscript readers on here
18:25:53 <Slereah> From the original article of combinators : 'If we now take the form FU as a point of departure, then, by means of Z alone, F can be transformed in such a way that all parenthesis disappear. By means of C, Z and S, therefore, every formula of logic can be written without parenthesis as a simple sequence of these signs"
18:26:09 <ais523> hmm... which combinators are C and Z?
18:28:10 <Slereah> C is K, Z is... Zxyz = x(yz), S is S.
18:28:40 <ais523> well, Z is cheating in this particular instance
18:28:54 <ais523> because clearly it lets you mess with associativity at will
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18:29:09 <Slereah> Don't diss the Schonfinkel man himself.
18:29:26 <ais523> I mean, Schonfinkel's idea was really clever in that context
18:29:37 <AnMaster> funny: http://rafb.net/p/L2FgYp89.html (I added the comment)
18:29:37 <ais523> however, trying to port it into another context fails in this case
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18:30:25 <ais523> AnMaster: is postfunc declared volatile?
18:30:47 <ais523> that's the only real hope of sanity here
18:30:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is a local auto variable
18:31:02 <ais523> is closefunc local or global?
18:31:06 <ais523> not that it really matters
18:31:23 <AnMaster> (it will get put into a struct that is constructed a bit below
18:31:30 <AnMaster> ais523, clearly a case of copy-and-paste error
18:31:42 <AnMaster> the right way would be to use macros to avoid code duplication too
18:31:43 <ais523> the second and third ifs are unreachable, aren't they
18:32:03 <AnMaster> yes, and the second one should check closefunc, and the third one should be removed
18:32:27 <ais523> well, I agree with you that that looks like the obvious fix
18:33:35 <AnMaster> I was debugging another issue when I ran into that
18:38:13 <ais523> http://www.xsharp.org/
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18:38:50 * ais523 tries to figure out what paradigm it is
18:39:34 <ais523> hmm... looks imperative
18:40:09 <ais523> but they implemented functional programming too
18:40:17 <AnMaster> ais523, the desc sounds "tree rewriting"
18:40:59 <ais523> it seems to use append-child a lot
18:41:48 <ais523> heh, the wiki's main page is
18:41:49 <ais523> #REDIRECT [[X Sharp on wheels]]
18:42:38 <ais523> and the protection level of the original main page is move/edit at autoconfirmed
18:42:42 <ais523> so anons can't even fix those problems
18:42:56 <ais523> someone's gone to the effort of getting autoconfirmed, then vandlising it...
18:44:26 <ais523> <agentace> This is only slightly more annoying than LOLCODE.
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19:10:05 <ais523> ehird: there is no response to that. You win already.
19:10:15 <ais523> now, stop using such a degenerate opening
19:10:21 <oerjan> still, you have to say B
19:10:36 -!- ais523 has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game.
19:12:00 <oerjan> "the channel that is more than gay sex"
19:13:45 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game.
19:14:01 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally..
19:14:07 <ehird> now it is a complete description
19:14:21 <ais523> ok, I admit that's a #esoteric meme
19:14:25 <ais523> although I don't like it
19:14:33 <ais523> and it's hardly unique to #esoteric like some of the others are
19:14:45 <ais523> well, I suppose messing with the topic isn't a #esoteric-specific meme
19:14:49 <oerjan> what about the goat sacrifices?
19:14:49 <ais523> the loglink possibly is, though
19:14:57 <ais523> oerjan: they never really caught on
19:15:12 <oerjan> they're still new aren't they
19:15:22 <oerjan> and we only use it when there are newbies
19:15:52 <ehird> ais523: gay sex is certainly a recurring theme here, you can't deny it :P
19:16:00 <ehird> we must be objective.
19:16:10 <ais523> I just tried to redefine the inclusion criteria instead
19:16:17 <ais523> also, don't scare off the new peopel
19:16:30 <ehird> the new people need thicker skin to survive here :-P
19:16:31 <oklofok> would probably be silly to add esolangs to the list?
19:16:42 <ehird> oklofok: when do we talk about esolangs?
19:16:42 <ais523> oklofok: those aren't exactly a meme
19:16:46 <ais523> they're what the channel is for
19:16:50 <oerjan> "languages. occasionally programming ones."
19:17:02 <oklofok> ais523: not talking about esolangs, though, is.
19:17:22 <oklofok> not that i like that one either :P
19:17:29 <ehird> lament: does #linguistics still have a strict anti-gay-sex policy?
19:20:49 <ehird> dfsddddddddddddddddddddd
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19:37:46 <ehird> that is valid perl code
19:37:50 <ehird> valid after a z-onslaught
19:38:37 <Slereah> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
19:39:07 <ehird> due to the perl maneuver
19:40:23 <ais523> to see how long it takes someone to add the final slash
19:40:26 <Slereah> Because look at the rules, oerjan
19:40:43 <ehird> Slereah: buy a real rulebook, lamer.
19:40:49 <ehird> ais523: see p645, section 9
19:41:01 <ais523> ehird: in the ANSI or ISO edition?
19:41:09 <ais523> the rules are the same, but the page numbering is different...
19:41:12 <ehird> Jekyll & Montgomery
19:41:22 <ehird> Third.FirstFourth edition
19:42:11 <oerjan> wait i only have the DVD version
19:43:03 <ehird> just use the xref tool included
19:43:10 <ehird> which translates various reference numbers
19:43:23 <oerjan> with appendix by Hyde & Seech
19:43:39 <ehird> sorry, I'll just the standardized numbering system from now on (you know, they put it in a whole other spec because none of the specs are consistent enough...)
19:44:37 <oerjan> the standard with arabic numerals or the one with babylonian numerals?
19:45:09 <ehird> arabic, since we're modern people here.
19:45:21 <oerjan> yeah i know the last one is really only used on MSN, and is overcomplicated
19:45:47 <ehird> let's have a rematch... with the swatter
19:47:24 <ehird> now I have the swatter
19:47:39 <oerjan> the swatter must not be used for games!
19:47:46 <ehird> 19:45 < ehird> let's have a rematch... with the swatter
19:47:53 <ehird> im not talking about the physical swatter
19:48:00 <ehird> see p1333, section 8
19:48:12 <oerjan> ah but then you still lose
19:48:21 <oerjan> you said "foul" rather than "swat"
19:48:29 <ehird> i didn't have the swatter
19:48:31 <ehird> so i couldn't swat
19:48:34 <ehird> gainign me the swatter
19:50:04 * ehird swats oerjan for making a triplication ---###
19:50:35 <ehird> [nice try, but that was no foul]
19:50:45 <oerjan> sure it was, the triplication was a trap
19:51:01 <ehird> right but the letter differenciation was 3
19:51:02 <oerjan> after it you have to triplicate, see p983
19:51:15 <ehird> ok, swatter goes back to you
19:52:22 <ehird> Irish people are often green.
19:52:34 <ehird> (Irish trick, see p1334 section 9)
19:53:14 <oerjan> after the irish trick you have to do consonant mutation
19:53:28 <ehird> swatter goes back to you
19:53:55 <ehird> nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
19:53:58 <ais523> meh, too busy trying to prove a slightly modified version of Russel's Paradox to be self-contradictory
19:54:38 <ehird> [triple score for letters+numbers+mathematical expression]
19:54:58 <oerjan> darn i lose, i cannot make enough letters on irc to answer that
19:56:15 <oerjan> i still say the rules don't take irc properly into account, the internet appendices are really only suitable for email
19:56:32 <ehird> nah, the email game is obsolete
19:56:35 <ehird> it relies on real-time, really
19:56:44 <ehird> oerjan: i suggest Wadler's book
19:56:58 <oerjan> wadler plays this game?
19:57:07 <ehird> it's a 100 page or so summary of little things to know when playing over realtime communication like irc
19:57:15 <oerjan> hm was it he who made the haskell ai for it?
19:57:28 <ehird> unfortunately it's a bit slow
19:57:31 <ehird> so not really suited to irc.
19:57:52 <oerjan> if it wasn't they'd have amended the rules
19:58:04 <oerjan> to make it slower and prevent cheating
19:58:09 <ehird> well naturally. it's like... the most antagonistic rule committee ever :-D
19:59:04 <oerjan> yeah putting paul graham in the committee was not such a great idea
19:59:13 <ehird> good thing they kicked him out in 2004
19:59:30 <ehird> i mean seriously can you remember oerjan?
19:59:33 <ehird> "my arc AI is sooo fast"
19:59:39 <oerjan> well that was one good thing that came out of the haskell ai
19:59:41 <ehird> did he ever contribute a non-reverted rule?
20:00:08 <oerjan> he did some quine-based ones
20:00:28 <ehird> nobody uses them do they?
20:00:44 <oerjan> nobody understands them
20:01:02 <oerjan> 500 lines of incomprehensible symbols
20:01:16 <oerjan> well i guess people in this channel could decipher it
20:02:57 <oerjan> i mean _technically_ one of them is official, but no one has ever managed to call that rule without using an AI
20:03:13 <ehird> did the ai produce a pretty parse tree?
20:03:25 <oerjan> which of course means disqualification in most tournaments
20:03:45 <ais523> meh, this is a #esoteric tournament
20:03:49 <ais523> it should be allowed here
20:03:53 <ais523> but only if written in an esolang
20:04:12 <ais523> in fact, I propose that right now, as 270:A
20:04:37 <ehird> propose it to the committee, or we can just bend rules to it
20:04:40 <ehird> but proposing is cheating
20:04:48 <oerjan> there's a house rule provision but it has to be anonymous
20:04:59 <ehird> can't be anonymous on irc, really
20:05:17 <oerjan> would have been unanimous but a misspelling crept through
20:05:42 <ehird> oerjan: for a laugh look at p2457
20:05:50 <ehird> it's written in a special font
20:05:53 <ais523> oerjan: don't, it's a goatse
20:05:56 <ehird> and the rule parts are so nested
20:06:00 <ehird> that they have to use differing font size
20:06:08 <ehird> ais523: similar effect on the brain...
20:06:26 <oerjan> the fractal maze rule, yeah i've seen it
20:06:44 <ehird> oerjan: also, one of the first uses of monads outside of category theory
20:06:49 <oerjan> i think it won some art prize
20:06:51 <ehird> it's actually structured as a monadic operation
20:06:53 <ehird> if you look closely
20:07:19 <ehird> been revised of course
20:07:30 <oerjan> it would have to be from before the 90s
20:07:52 <ehird> it's from 1980-something
20:08:30 <ehird> oerjan: p329 is from the *1970s*, unchanged...
20:09:21 <oerjan> actually the page number was changed. there were only 2000 pages before they computerized the rules
20:09:33 <ehird> yeah but they did that really early on
20:09:42 <ehird> so it's expanded a lot by now
20:10:14 <oerjan> i hear the next edition won't fit on an ordinary DVD
20:10:28 <ehird> oh right, the old text version
20:10:38 <ehird> oerjan: you have the multi-dvd version I assume?
20:10:42 <ehird> since you know about the formatting
20:10:57 <ehird> well, you have to really
20:11:07 <ais523> ehird: meh, you just need the multi-dvd compression algorithm
20:11:18 <ais523> which can decode the entire ruleset from the picture of Lenna
20:11:25 <ehird> oh not that joke again
20:11:30 <ehird> puhleeze, that got old in 1999
20:11:36 <ais523> ehird: I made it in reverse this time
20:11:46 <lament> You can decode pretty much anything from the picture of Lenna
20:11:49 <lament> I know from experience
20:12:16 <ais523> now, really creepy would have been if AnMaster had got that joke before my explanation
20:12:22 <ais523> whilst ehird still needed one...
20:12:42 <ehird> ais523: yeah um the likelyhood of that is 0.
20:12:50 <ais523> only because AnMaster is idle
20:13:01 <ehird> i just misread, sheesh
20:13:08 <oerjan> i just have one DVD. it's the special internet version leaving out the physical play rules.
20:13:25 <ehird> oerjan: wait, the internet is just an appendix
20:13:27 <ehird> oh, wait, that one
20:13:30 <ehird> that one is actually a trick
20:13:35 <ehird> it downloads the complete rules from the internet
20:13:40 <ehird> that's why the install takes so long
20:13:41 <ais523> no wonder oerjan's been doing so badly all this time
20:13:48 <ehird> he has the full rules
20:13:48 <oerjan> rubbish, my disk is not that large
20:13:56 <ehird> oerjan: yes, the disk just downloads the rules
20:14:02 <ehird> bit of a ripoff :P
20:14:09 <oerjan> my _hard_disk_ is not that large
20:14:16 <ehird> well how big is it
20:14:22 <ehird> the rules fit compressed on a few dvds
20:14:25 <ehird> so unless your hd is tiny...
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20:17:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: they were discussing a joke you couldn't possibly have got
20:17:56 <oerjan> or something like that, anyway
20:19:02 <AnMaster> well I actually know about Lenna, but I would have thought ais got it the wrong way round instead realising that he meant it as that.
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20:28:40 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U2charist
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20:53:57 <ais523> yay, they finally fixed MediaWiki bug 10569
20:54:01 <ais523> and I only reported it in 2007
20:54:14 <ais523> not that it's a particularly important one
20:54:22 <ais523> I only found it deliberately trying to provoke a failure mode
20:54:36 <ais523> but still, I can imagine a vandal having used it for something malicious
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20:57:33 <oklofok> yay i guessed correct what the two most common letters are when measured by amount of google results for 20 of those characters.
20:58:55 <oklofok> after second i though mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm might be third, but there i went wrong
20:59:23 <ehird> what did you guess?
20:59:33 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
20:59:33 <oklofok> well x is the first of course
21:00:06 <oklofok> x means "unspecified", w i guessed based on www being a common acronym :P
21:00:24 <oklofok> i'm not sure that's the reason. point is i was right, not why i was right.
21:00:44 <ehird> I thought AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH or something would top
21:01:28 <ehird> let's just say loads of letters 20 times in here so google indexes them
21:02:17 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooo
21:02:18 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooo
21:02:18 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooo
21:02:20 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooo
21:02:20 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooo
21:02:22 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooo
21:02:25 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooo
21:05:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
21:06:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:08:23 <oerjan> ^ul (o):::***::::****( )*(~:S~:^):^
21:08:24 <fungot> oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooo ...too much output!
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21:11:40 <ais523_> ugh, they didn't even fix the actual bug
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21:13:29 <ais523> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10569
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21:17:00 <ehird> [[Redirects to Special:Mypage and Special:Mytalk are no longer allowed]]
21:17:06 <ehird> can we murder the mediawiki devs?
21:17:17 <ais523> the problem is, there might be other pages with the same problem
21:17:35 <lament> the problem is, there might be other mediawiki devs, now or in the future
21:17:55 <ehird> again, let's kill MW devs.
21:18:05 <ais523> OK, the fix makes the list configurable
21:18:19 <ais523> and there are some special pages which shouldn't be redirectable-to, like Special:Userlogout
21:19:52 <oerjan> Special:LaunchMissiles
21:19:59 <ehird> ais523: wait, does that work on wikipedia?
21:20:06 <ehird> I may have to give in to my inner vandal...
21:20:35 <ais523> all redirs to special pages are blocked on Wikipedia
21:20:38 <ehird> dammit. wait, are you only saying that because of [[WP:BEANS]]?
21:20:52 <ehird> [[I see a featured article on Washington D.C., and the image File:Obama_Portrait_2006.jpg on the Main Page. This is absolutely ridiculous -- the U.S. is not the only country in the world, and filling the Main Page just because of the upcoming inauguration is obviously a violation of NPOV.
21:21:00 <ais523> no, WP:BEANS technically says "Don't tell people not to do something, because they'll be certain to try"
21:21:24 <ais523> nothing about not giving vandalism hints, although there are good reasons not to do that either
21:21:59 -!- adimit has quit ("leaving").
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21:23:50 <ehird> move to Wikipedia:Main Page
21:23:50 <ehird> shouldn't this page moved out of the article Space? this is only one of some Wikipedia-related things, so please put it into the Wikipedia: namespace, thanks. --84.44.177.212 (talk) 14:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
21:24:28 <ais523> that's what it's designed for
21:24:43 <ehird> I saw you in one of those debates about it from like 2006 a while ago
21:24:47 <ehird> Typical ais523 :-P
21:25:31 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:REMOVE_THIS_TEMPLATE_WHEN_CLOSING_THIS_AfD
21:25:42 <oerjan> ehird: iirc moving the Main Page has been discussed before
21:25:46 <ehird> especially since it has nothing to do with its naming, other than being useful in the source
21:25:50 <ehird> oerjan: I know, thus "oh no"
21:25:52 <ehird> the debates were... heated
21:26:06 <ais523> ehird: sorry about that
21:26:09 <ais523> the name sort-of stuck
21:26:27 <ais523> I had to invent a migration path for AfD that people could follow without breaking anything and without realising it was happening
21:26:45 <ais523> although I wasn't an admin back then
21:27:05 <oerjan> istr someone pondering what would happen if something noteable with the name "Main Page" appeared
21:27:06 <ais523> <ais523> "Starting to implement Wikipedia:AfD reform. This template is initially blank so that the process can be started without interfering with AfD."
21:27:38 <ehird> Articles for Deletion.
21:28:08 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzxxxxxxxxccccccvbnm,.
21:28:11 <ais523> the heavyweight process for deleting things that not even admins can get away with just arbitrarily deleting
21:28:16 <ehird> OOH! I wanna make an esolang.
21:28:22 <ehird> I just remembered, you know.
21:28:37 <ehird> I may or may not be forgetful <_________<
21:29:47 <ehird> You know, slashdot would be better if it wasn't so impossible to read the comments.
21:29:59 <oerjan> (yeah i know it's a myth)
21:30:08 <ehird> oerjan: although the new standard is Digg users
21:30:18 <ehird> Mark Pilgrim proved that Digg's memory is shorter than a goldfishes
21:30:31 <ehird> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/10/02/digg
21:32:18 <oerjan> i like the striked out Japanese Chinese
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21:40:25 <ehird> is there a turing-complete OISC with only one operand?
21:40:40 <ehird> yes, http://esolangs.org/wiki/RSSB
21:40:46 <ehird> ok, what about _no_ operands?
21:40:51 <ais523> ehird: how many operands would you say MiniMAX has?
21:41:14 <ehird> Word of data to send to the previous command
21:42:24 <ehird> maybe something stack-based
21:44:33 <oerjan> one instruction, no operands, er that leaves very little actual information content...
21:45:48 <ehird> oerjan: hardcoded data
21:46:19 <oerjan> um then the real program is the data, surely
21:46:30 <ehird> because the amount of times it runs differs
21:46:49 <ehird> data: "&*^&*^~HDCUJ"
21:46:50 <ais523> ehird: the problem with MiniMAX is that the operands sort of blur between different commmands
21:46:56 <ais523> although they're definitely there
21:47:03 <ais523> also, the program is the data
21:47:23 <ehird> the programs is the ocruances of cmd + the data
21:47:54 <oerjan> ehird the evil mangler
21:48:18 <ehird> no, that's ghc's Literate Perl script
21:48:23 <ehird> (it mangles gcc's assembly output)
21:48:27 <ehird> and yes, literate perl
21:48:30 <ehird> comments are default
21:48:34 <ehird> it's filtered before using
21:48:54 <ais523> ehird: you could just do that with a source filter
21:49:27 <ehird> they run perl on it, IIRC
21:49:30 <ehird> to get the perl script
21:49:55 <ais523> that's what a source filter /is/
21:50:19 <ehird> they don't use a source filter
21:50:42 <oerjan> ais523: then it wouldn't be as evil, duh
22:00:34 <olsner> literate perl? is that when you have alphanumerics in your source?
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22:22:56 <oerjan> hello, are you Max Demian from the wiki?
22:25:02 <oerjan> if so, nice of you to make an omgrofl implementation just as hope of retrieving the original was lost
22:25:53 <ais523> also, it's very funny to see LOLCODE beaten at its own game
22:26:04 <oerjan> i _specifically_ rubbed out the word "all", after typing it
22:26:21 <oerjan> i supposed technically someone _could_ have mirrored it
22:26:43 <ais523> oerjan: I thought the location at which all hope was lost was the entrance to Malbolge
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22:27:32 <Max_D> sorry, went afk, yeah I am Max Demian from the wiki
22:27:46 <ais523> oerjan: it's working for me I think
22:27:55 <oerjan> me too, it was just temporary
22:28:47 <Max_D> yeah, I have lots of free time, lol. playing with omgrofl just seemed like a good time killer, lol
22:28:47 <ehird> I want to kill the creator of LOLCode.
22:29:48 <oerjan> ehird: HAI. I CAN HAS AXE IN SKULL?
22:30:03 <ehird> oerjan: YES WE CAN
22:31:02 <ais523> or is LOLCODE behind the times?
22:31:15 <oerjan> ais523: i'm not entirely fluent
22:31:20 <ehird> I'm going to write GoL in Haskell. :-D
22:31:35 <ehird> Step one: neighboursFold
22:31:39 <ehird> A fold, but includes neighbours.
22:31:48 <ais523> why not implement the rest of RedGreen while you're at it?
22:31:57 <ais523> the ALPACA reference interp is rubbish
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22:32:26 <ehird> I think Lahey Space is a good fit for GoL.
22:32:30 <ehird> i.e., wrapping neighbours, but infinite field
22:32:58 <ais523> ehird: it wouldn't make a difference
22:33:07 <ais523> Lahey space wrapping only matters when you project rays
22:33:11 <ehird> you have a cell at the top bound
22:33:18 <ehird> the top cell has the bottom as a neighbour
22:33:22 <ais523> despite being infinite?
22:33:27 <ehird> if the cell went higher
22:33:30 <ehird> it'd still have the same neighbour
22:33:44 <ehird> and neighbours take the bounds into account
22:33:44 <ais523> oh, it's a torus which gets bigger
22:33:50 <ais523> when does it get bigger?
22:33:54 <ais523> when things get near the edge?
22:34:01 <ehird> ais523: when they hit beyond the edge
22:34:02 <ais523> if so, it's likely to expand indefinitely due to gliders
22:34:04 <ehird> ais523: you just store the boundaries
22:34:08 <ehird> of the whole thing
22:34:15 <ais523> how do they get beyond
22:34:18 <ais523> in a wrapping environment?
22:34:24 <ehird> ais523: wrapping is only for neighbours
22:34:26 <ais523> cells in Life don't move
22:34:32 <ehird> ais523: wrapping is only for neighbours
22:34:42 <ais523> ehird: there is no movement in Life
22:34:49 <ais523> rather, nearby cells turn on
22:34:55 <ehird> when a cell turns on outside the field
22:35:06 <ehird> but for neighbour calculation, it wraps at the edges
22:35:12 <ais523> ehird: but the cell at the opposite side of the field would also turn on?
22:35:18 <ais523> that's getting weird and messed-up, now
22:35:21 <lament> there's no movement in the real world
22:35:31 <ais523> ehird: imagine a glider hitting the edge of the map
22:35:34 <ehird> what part of "WRAPPING ONLY APPLIES TO NEIGHBOURS" don't you get
22:35:34 <ais523> the cells beyond it turn on
22:35:41 <ais523> the cells at the other end of the map also turn on
22:35:42 <ehird> all of it, apparently.
22:35:48 <ais523> by only applying to neighbours
22:35:55 <oerjan> ehird: what are the neighbors of a cell far outside the field?
22:36:05 <ehird> There is nothing outside of the field...
22:36:06 <ais523> oerjan: they wrap, obviously, wrapping only applies to neighbours
22:36:16 <ehird> ais523: what I mean is
22:36:19 <ais523> ehird: suppose a cell isn't on
22:36:19 <oerjan> ehird: so where do new cells come from?
22:36:23 <ehird> when you run the "flipState" function
22:36:27 <ehird> you pass neighbours that wrap
22:36:28 <ais523> and at the other end of the field, there are three consecutive on cells
22:36:29 <ehird> but NOTHING ELSE wraps
22:36:41 <ais523> ehird: then how do the cells outside the boundary ever turn on
22:36:42 <ehird> ais523: the GoL calculations only deal with the middle cell
22:37:09 <oerjan> ehird: anyway you _are_ going to get strange edge effects this way
22:37:11 <ais523> ehird: then how do the cells outside the boundary ever turn on
22:37:29 <ehird> ais523: you're not making any sense to me
22:37:41 <ais523> ehird: neither are you to anyone else
22:37:53 <ais523> calculating neighbours seems easy to calculate for cells inside the grid
22:37:58 <ais523> given your current clear definitions
22:38:01 <ais523> but expanding the grid doesn't
22:38:10 <ais523> as cells outside the grid don't seem to have defined neighbours to know when to turn on
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22:38:39 <ehird> meh, I'll just make it unbounded.
22:38:43 <ehird> even though this will cause me hell.
22:39:07 <ehird> (in that you have to store the boundaries)
22:39:20 * ais523 vaguely wonders what C## would be like, if it existed
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22:39:40 <ehird> #c# redirecst there
22:39:45 <ais523> yes, but that's only one sharp
22:39:55 <ais523> arguably, C## would be D, based on enharmonics
22:39:58 <ais523> but that's stretching it a bit
22:41:14 <ehird> neighbours :: Grid -> Point -> Neighbours
22:41:19 <ehird> wonder if that should be Point -> Grid
22:43:27 <ehird> Do most Life implementations store bounds?
22:43:30 <ehird> I'm sure there's a trick
22:44:12 <ehird> Well, how do you transform an infinite grid apart from storing bounds?
22:44:37 <ehird> Also, isn't a wrapping Life easier to look at? :P
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22:45:46 <oerjan> it wreaks some havoc with simulations if you wrap though, even if the live field is not that large - gliders tend to come back and ruin things
22:46:23 <ehird> Coooooooooooooooool, my random pattern spawned a glider
22:46:23 <ehird> oerjan: all life patterns tend to mess up after a while :P
22:46:35 <oerjan> i mean mess up compared to the ideal
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22:56:10 * Max_D killed the convo with his bleh!
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23:09:16 <ehird> whee, maze generating cellular automata!
23:09:17 <Max_D> bleh, half the languages in this wiki are the exact same language just with different ways of doing the same thing... no originality =/
23:09:26 <Max_D> they are all brainfuck basically xP
23:09:27 <ehird> Max_D: we agree :-)
23:09:34 <ehird> everyone's first langi s a brainfuck clone...
23:10:03 <Max_D> instead of > you do poop, and < is doodoo, and + is crap
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23:12:19 <Max_D> it's gonna be HUGE
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23:36:37 <MizardX> Life in matlab: nlfilter(A,[3 3],@(N)sum(sum(N))==3||N(5)&&sum(sum(N))==4)
23:37:04 <MizardX> (can't figure out how to only evaluate sum(sum(N)) once...)
23:39:31 <ehird> MizardX: nlfilter sounds ... specialized
23:40:24 <MizardX> [3 3] is the size of the sub-image you want passed to the function
23:41:08 * Max_D wonders what you are talking about :P
23:44:11 <MizardX> conways game of life, and image processing, in matlab
23:46:24 <MizardX> better implementation in the built-in version:
23:46:24 <MizardX> n = [m 1:m-1]; e = [2:m 1]; s = [2:m 1]; w = [m 1:m-1];
23:46:28 <MizardX> N = X(n,:) + X(s,:) + X(:,e) + X(:,w) + X(n,e) + X(n,w) + X(s,e) + X(s,w);
23:46:30 <MizardX> X = (X & (N == 2)) | (N == 3);