00:05:05 <ehird> Quitting applications tends to stop them doing things.
00:05:11 <ehird> Also, s'it just me or is gmail down?
00:06:04 -!- sixforty has joined.
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00:06:57 <ehird> Umm, I think I'll host my own mail server.
00:08:06 <lament> my gmail is working fine.
00:12:09 <ehird> Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request.
00:12:09 <ehird> Please see Google's Terms of Service posted at http://www.google.com/terms_of_service.html
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00:43:58 <GregorR> Heh, having a client that creates a malformed request is against the terms of service :P
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00:59:59 <MizardX> http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/
01:10:59 <GregorR> That's going to be a very brief celebration :P
01:11:07 <GregorR> I hope the page turns bright and exciting for EXACTLY one second.
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01:38:33 <GreaseMonkey> could do with some happy fun music for just one second
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02:03:40 <Sgeo> GreaseMonkey, I my me my?
02:04:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wSMuCJCkQ
02:14:14 <kerlo> There has to be more to it than that.
02:14:23 <kerlo> Aha: I, me, my, mine, myself.
02:15:00 <kerlo> And ey, em, eir, eirs, emself or e, em, eir, eirs, eirself.
02:25:34 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgVlzWCfS8 same song, different video
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08:11:17 <oklopol> feels kinda weird using the computer on a lecture
08:11:39 <oklopol> do irc people exist even when i'm on lectures?
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08:13:16 <fizzie> IRC people exist always when you're observing us.
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08:16:54 <oklofok> not even on the actual seats, i took a chair and pulled it against the back wall
08:19:12 <oklofok> so, where does everyone summer
08:20:19 <lament> oklofok: probably toronto
08:20:26 <lament> but i might go to europe too
08:21:21 <oklofok> wow an actual answer, that was unexpected, how do you keep it fresh after so many years lammy?
08:21:54 <oklofok> isn't it kinda boring here/there
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08:22:08 <fizzie> Well, if this is going to be one of those "actual answers" things... I guess I'll have to go to visit elderly relatives at Lieksa again this year; been a couple of years from the last visit.
08:22:28 <oklofok> the question is about subsets, guy starts to draw a truth table.
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08:29:42 <oklofok> discrete math, tons of different kinds of discrete math stacked together, scratching the surface.
08:29:42 <oklofok> very broad and simple course
08:29:42 <oklofok> also useless if you do the algebra stuff, but this is for cs people, i'm just filling the holes in my schedule with it
08:30:13 <oklofok> i mean, i am technically cs people, but i should probably be math people
08:31:10 <lament> go to #not-math and say that
08:31:48 <lament> to see how a bunch of mathematicians would react to that statement :)
08:31:51 <oklofok> and cs is math, it's just simpler math, and the actual cs courses aren't entirely about cs.
08:32:02 <oklofok> lament: to me being math people?
08:32:18 <lament> oklofok: to cs being math
08:32:39 <lament> if nobody's awake it doesn't count
08:32:50 <oklofok> yeah, it's not math, but i assumed he meant the science VS math distinction
08:35:41 <lament> actually trwbw is awake, so he's just ignoring you
08:36:27 <bsmntbombdood> it's funny how every technical chanel has an extremely knowledgable person who is also a total dick
08:37:00 <bsmntbombdood> trbw is #math's, zhivago is ##c's, riadstrat is #scheme's
08:37:23 <lament> i'm a total dick but i don't know shit
08:37:30 <oklofok> maybe when i start doing my CA research, i can start being a dick
08:37:36 <lament> but i don't think riaqjkxqjkx is at all a dick
08:38:01 <lament> #lisp, on the other hand, is all dicks :)
08:38:05 <lament> and #haskell doesn't have ayn
08:39:47 <oklofok> well. gotta leave, it seems the computer screen has started to make me feel sick :)
08:39:55 <oklofok> which is kinda cool, because i'm an irc addict.
08:40:13 <lament> walk up to the front first
08:40:34 <lament> come on just do it, this is your chance
08:40:52 <lament> what are you waiting for?
08:41:34 <lament> he's not answering, maybe he's doing it right now!
08:43:45 <bsmntbombdood> look, my computer can execute and infinite loop in 6.8 seconds
08:43:52 <bsmntbombdood> int main(){uint32_t i; for(i = 1; i != 0; i++); return 0;}
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15:00:59 <impomatic> Had trouble accessing freenode, for some reason my ip had been banned :-(
15:12:11 <AnMaster> hah I just read xkcd... Very meta humor today
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15:31:21 <ais523> I've put in suggestions for a new round of BF Joust, but they've fallen on deaf ears so far, people have been distracted
15:32:02 <ais523> my suggestions were: tape reduce to between 10 and 50 elements, . as an explicit no-op that wastes a cycle, flags have to be at 0 for two consecutive cycles to cause their owner to lose
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15:42:56 <impomatic> Hmmm... I made reddit frontpage today :-)
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16:01:24 <ais523_> how come I have an underscore?
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16:01:32 <AnMaster> ais523, btw is the Door repaired yet?
16:01:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:01:44 <ais523> it was locked by hand a couple of nights ago, so probably not
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16:18:47 <MigoMipo> I think the wiki main page needs an update.
16:19:07 <MigoMipo> "Waiting for the results of the 2006 Esolang Contest" seems a bit out of date
16:22:10 <ais523> although we're still waiting...
16:22:24 <ais523> IIRC, the main page isn't protected, so you can update it yourself if you like
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16:27:02 <MigoMipo> "Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory", is that important?
16:27:17 <ais523> it's another thing that never really got started
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17:20:17 <impomatic> So what happened to the 2006 Esolang results?
17:20:32 <ais523> the contest happened, just we never got the results
17:20:34 <impomatic> AnMaster: the optimizing assembly one
17:21:08 <impomatic> Who was responsible for them? Can't they be harrassed?
17:21:45 <impomatic> Answering questions in the backlog! 15:48:41 <AnMaster> which one?
17:22:02 <AnMaster> impomatic, oh you took so long it timed out from my mental questions yet to be answered buffer
17:22:21 <AnMaster> but if you are interested in optimising asm you might want to look at http://code.google.com/p/mao/
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17:24:02 * impomatic would be interested in a new round of BF Joust
17:24:43 <ais523> maybe I'll wite a hill myself
17:24:52 <ais523> because my suggestion was just ignored or forgotten about, I think
17:27:31 <impomatic> Well if you write a hill, I'll submit :-)
17:28:03 <impomatic> What suggestion? A different spec?
17:28:09 <ais523> yes, slightly different
17:28:34 <ais523> tape from 10 to 50 elements, . as an explicit no-op that takes one cycle, you need to keep the enemy flag zero for two consecutive cycle-ends to win
17:30:10 <impomatic> Hmmm... that's got to be better than having 135 > in the middle of every program
17:30:36 <ais523> yes, and it opens various new strategies as well
17:30:44 <ais523> to be precise, it makes defensive strategies a lot more useful
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17:34:03 <impomatic> Hmmm... maybe it should have 1 point for a tie, 3 points for a win
17:34:29 <ais523> to start with, I'll probably write a one-of joust runner, rather than a hill
17:34:34 <ais523> maybe not now, though, I'm RL-busy
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17:44:20 <AnMaster> Why this recent interested in eso-codewar?
17:45:28 <ais523> and impomatic comes from a codewarrior background, it's an obvious idea for someone like that
17:45:29 <AnMaster> I didn't ask "why", but rather "why now"
17:45:40 <AnMaster> well I never found it very interesting
17:46:07 <AnMaster> and yes, of course it is subjective
17:46:09 <impomatic> I guess I'm interested because I'm an actual corewar player
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17:47:11 <impomatic> Yes, I had quite a bit of fun with BF Joust, trying out different strategies.
17:47:14 <AnMaster> impomatic, well of course I realise "interesting" is highly subjective
17:47:31 <AnMaster> but "<ais523> and impomatic comes from a codewarrior background, it's an obvious idea for someone like that" answered the question I have
17:47:42 <impomatic> In the end I could only find one strategy with a decent score. Other more intelligent strategies didn't score well :-(
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17:48:28 <AnMaster> impomatic, what about overwriting cell 2 or 3 or such of the other player's code tape?
17:49:03 <AnMaster> might not work very well I guess
17:49:05 <ais523> AnMaster: there isn't a way to do that in most code war games
17:49:13 <ais523> for instance, in CoreWars the opponent's at a random location
17:49:21 <ais523> in the games where there is, like FYB, it works badly
17:49:22 <AnMaster> ais523, um in BF Joust... why not --?
17:49:32 <ais523> AnMaster: because in BF Joust you can't overwrite the enemy's code at all
17:49:41 <AnMaster> ais523, oh, which one was that then?
17:49:48 <ais523> FYB you're thinking of
17:50:15 <ais523> it was a subgame of Agora
17:50:33 <AnMaster> ais523, care to link to specs? I assume they must be somewhere
17:50:45 <ais523> let me try to find them
17:50:52 <ais523> it's a dynamic thing, the rules are updated from time to time
17:51:01 <ais523> at the moment they just say "There is no current tournament. Coming Soon!"
17:51:05 <ais523> let me find the version before that
17:51:14 <fizzie> A reasonable summary is in #esoteric logs also, but I don't remember the day.
17:51:35 <AnMaster> by the way, I recently (last week) went over all projects by google on google code. Found some rather interesting ones
17:51:49 <AnMaster> like core dump on the fly and then continue
17:51:58 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/p/google-coredumper/
17:52:07 <ais523> revision 1 of http://agora-notary.wikidot.com/brainfuck-joust has it
17:52:14 <ais523> stupid JS-generated pages that can't be linked to...
17:52:20 <ais523> you have to go via "history" at the bottom of the page
17:53:43 <fizzie> Also the "history" button here just says "Error processing the request. You have no valid security token which is required to prevent identity theft. Please enable cookies in your browser if you have this option disabled and reload this page." (I do whitelist-only cookiesies.)
17:53:56 <ais523> ok, that's really really ridiculous
17:54:04 <ais523> I now hate wikidot even more than I did before you said that
17:54:14 <fizzie> "Can't look at the page history, someone might STEAL your IDENTITY."
17:54:16 <ais523> identity theft of a wiki history page, which is somehow prevented using cookies?
17:56:17 <impomatic> The spec is also included in this article http://tr.im/f03n
17:56:52 <impomatic> (which leaves out the boring bits)
17:59:07 <ais523> we need a better version, really
17:59:19 <ais523> I think the 2-consecutive-cycles thing really would alter the way the game was played
17:59:29 <impomatic> By the way, there's a huge list of programming games at http://aiforge.net
17:59:29 <impomatic> I'm slowly working my way through them
18:21:49 <impomatic> Wouldn't -[>>[-]<-] be a solution that keeps the flag zero for 2 consecutive cycles?
18:22:12 <ais523> it would make you overshoot the end and die
18:22:30 <ais523> [>[-].-] would work as a trivial warrior if your opponent didn't interfere
18:22:35 <ais523> (this is why we have an explicit NOP)
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18:24:54 <impomatic> Mine shouldn't overshoot the end though.
18:37:56 <nooga> got a simple multithreaded server written in C? :D
18:41:27 <AnMaster> nooga, "++ S . S" <-- what language?
18:44:24 <nooga> none, it just looks funny
18:45:06 <ais523> I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each
18:45:06 <nooga> the problem is that ruby has melted my brain and now i am so illiterate i can't write simple, multithreaded tcp server in c
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18:47:41 <oerjan> oh no, it was quite physical at my place
18:47:54 <lament> C is so old, I prefer B#
18:50:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I was considering prolog yes, At first it looked like a fragment of Erlang, but I quickly concluded that since a) ++ is probably be most useless erlang operator in existence b) ++ is binary not unary. c) A variable reference after a . doesn't make a lot of sense
18:50:53 <ais523> well, in prolog you can write any junk sequence of operators and values, it's only evaluated if you try to evaluate it
18:52:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also ++ in erlang means "concat lists", and is useless because it is slow on large lists unless you concat one element at head, and then you would use [H|T] anyway
18:52:45 <ais523> AnMaster: just because an operator's slow doesn't necessarily make it useless
18:53:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well I have hardly seen any code using it, and most erlang books recommends avoiding it
18:54:14 <AnMaster> ais523, consider that if the first argument needs to be copied due to single assignment.
18:54:29 <AnMaster> you get an O(terrible) behaviour for any code using it
18:54:51 <nooga> $#U)T32iq[tow5esp'rf[sd0gee45$$$kprkgp[rk
18:55:09 <AnMaster> normal way is to build lists backwards then call the BIF (built in function) lists:reverse/1
18:55:15 <AnMaster> which since it is built in is very fast
18:55:17 <ais523> it's the second half of a statement
18:55:56 <ais523> to make it legal, you'd have to add something to the start and end
18:55:59 <AnMaster> hypothesis: You can't parse perl with LR(1)
18:56:17 <AnMaster> I haven't really investigated this though
18:56:24 <nooga> P6 seems to be cool
18:56:25 <AnMaster> but considering what little perl I know...
18:56:28 <ais523> actually, I think that isn't legal
18:56:39 <ais523> unless it's inside a here-document or string or something
18:57:06 <AnMaster> ais523, would it be possible to parse perl using simple LR(1)?
18:58:34 <ais523> no, it's actually uncomputable to parse Perl5
18:58:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well assuming no BEGIN blocks?
18:59:28 * AnMaster hates this keyboard's , key... pressing it down has larger friction than other keys for some reason
18:59:37 <ais523> oh, assuming no BEGIN blocks, LR(1) isn't enough
18:59:37 <oerjan> <ais523> I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each
18:59:42 <ais523> nor is LR(n) for any n
18:59:44 <AnMaster> oh and altgr only has larger friction going upwards
18:59:46 <ais523> but it's theoretically possible
19:00:09 <ais523> AnMaster: how many tokens in s/a b
19:00:10 <oerjan> i don't think so. ++ S . S implies S is a function and i don't think you can achieve that.
19:01:03 <ais523> it means replace some string with
19:01:06 <oerjan> oh well, you could hide the usual definitions of ++ and ., i guess
19:01:09 <ais523> and the some string is either ab or "a b"
19:01:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the matching /?
19:01:21 <ais523> that's several lines later
19:01:28 <ais523> that's how I'm proving the LR(n) for any n
19:01:38 <ais523> you can add an infinite number of newlines then either //x; or //;
19:01:41 <AnMaster> ais523, then there is no way you can handle /* foo */ in C?
19:01:43 <ais523> and that changes how that one line is parsed
19:01:56 <AnMaster> ais523, so what does the x mean?
19:02:05 <ais523> it means ignore whitespace inside the s/// group
19:02:36 <AnMaster> ais523, ok so that changes what the parameters look like, right
19:02:45 <AnMaster> but does that have to be in the parser?
19:02:50 <ais523> it changes whether a b parses as two tokens or 3
19:03:05 <ais523> and yes, because regular expressions can contain Perl code, so need parsing
19:03:12 <ais523> it means delete all occurences of ab
19:03:29 <ais523> whereas s/a b// or s/a\ b//x means delete all occurences of a b
19:03:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I see, because I would just treat it as "string which is passed to s///-mini language interpreter"
19:03:49 <ais523> but that language is perl
19:03:57 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, then how do you treat eval?
19:03:59 <ais523> people have written perl programs almost entirely inside regular expression by now
19:04:11 <ais523> AnMaster: eval is given a string as its argument, so it's parsed as a string
19:04:34 <ais523> but invoking a sub-interpreter for s/// is like invoking a sub-interpreter for while
19:04:37 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed. Couldn't you implement s/// as that?
19:05:09 <AnMaster> you just have to pass any set variables back
19:05:23 <AnMaster> also scope for while would end at end of while surely?
19:05:26 <nooga> is that true that Perl 6 is basically an ultra powerful regex engine that can alter itself creating basically infinite levels of abstraction?
19:05:35 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if goto x; s/(?{x:; print "hello"})// works
19:05:39 <ais523> but knowing Perl, it probably does
19:05:50 <AnMaster> or do you imply that while ... { $a=$b } makes a being set outside?
19:06:21 <ais523> it's obviously possible for loops to alter variables outside a loop
19:06:25 <ais523> more importantly, you can goto into a loop
19:06:36 <ais523> if the loop wasn't parsed, you wouldn't know there was a label there
19:06:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what would goto inside a loop do in C?
19:07:07 <nooga> DNF = Do Not Fuckwithme?
19:07:11 <ais523> AnMaster: see Duff's Device
19:07:21 <ais523> it just jumps to the point where the label is
19:07:28 <ais523> when it reaches the end of the loop, it does whatever the end of the loop does
19:07:35 <AnMaster> goto x; for(int i = 0; i<20; i++) { ... x label somewhere here }
19:08:09 <ais523> because the initialiser was skipped, but declarations are compile-time not run-time, they apply to scopes
19:08:47 <AnMaster> wonder how gcc handles the stack pointer for that with computed goto
19:09:09 <ais523> AnMaster: by allocating space for all the blocks inside a function at the start of a function
19:09:14 <ais523> simple enough when you know about it
19:10:35 <ais523> or to be precise, never allocates the memory
19:10:43 <AnMaster> also it explains why valgrind reports uninitialised variables in blocks near the end of the function as "allocated on stack at <line number for the start of the function>"
19:10:45 <ais523> because it's a function, not a compiler directive
19:11:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I think alloca() is a built in function in gcc?
19:11:23 <AnMaster> I can hardly imagine it would work if it wasn't
19:11:30 <ais523> it is, but it can work not as a built-in function
19:11:48 <ais523> it works by messing with the stack pointer, which only works if you aren't omitting the frame pointer
19:11:51 <AnMaster> well, only if the compiler is aware of it
19:11:55 <ais523> but which the compiler needn't know about as long as the frame pointer is there
19:11:59 <lament> C# has a call GC.Collect()
19:12:04 <lament> doesn't fucking do shit
19:12:05 <ais523> I'm pretty surre it started life as a non-builtin
19:12:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well if the frame pointer isn't there, how will compiler know how much to stubstract from the stack top pointer at return?
19:13:19 <lament> cause i keep running out of memory
19:13:23 <AnMaster> lament, if you mean "didn't return memory to OS" then you are probably right. It would probably just keep the memory around for future allocation
19:13:49 <AnMaster> and even malloc() and free() iirc
19:13:58 <ais523> AnMaster: that's why it only works with frame pointers
19:13:59 <AnMaster> though for that it is a bit more complex
19:14:05 <ais523> but alloca is old, omitting frame pointers is new
19:14:34 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I ran into an interesting issue recently
19:14:58 <AnMaster> was using valgrind on a binary compiled with -O0 -ggdb3. and using -db-attach=yes to attach gdb at the point of the issue
19:15:09 <AnMaster> valgrind prints a stack trace, asks if I want to attach
19:15:27 <AnMaster> gdb shows a stack trace with a few ???
19:15:38 <ais523> that happens a lot, it means the stack itself got corrupted
19:15:42 <AnMaster> if I use gdb from the start and break at that point I see a working stack trace
19:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, no it didn't, the issue was an assert()
19:16:03 <AnMaster> it wasn't even a normal valgrind error
19:16:46 <AnMaster> thing is when using gdb from the start it shows a nice backtrace from either breakpoint or the SIGABRT in abort()
19:16:55 <AnMaster> ais523, so to me this makes no sense
19:17:44 <AnMaster> everything in the backtrace, except libc itself, was built with -O0 -ggdb3. Glibc was built with debugging symbols. I think that means -O2 -g
19:18:02 <AnMaster> and framepointers were NOT omitted
19:18:10 <AnMaster> so I have no idea what cause this
19:18:18 <AnMaster> ais523, just wonder if you can think of anything
19:19:57 <AnMaster> not that the program actually uses threads, but it uses sqlite which internally use threads
19:20:33 <AnMaster> also the assert() was inside a dlopen()ed plugin (again -O0 -ggdb3, like the main program)
19:20:38 <AnMaster> no idea if that could affect it?
19:21:39 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm busy with something else, and don't know anything about that sort of thing...
19:27:27 <Hiato> Sorry to bug, but, out of interest, does anyone how would one split an array into n equal portions in haskell?
19:29:26 <oerjan> Hiato: iirc dropWhile (not . null) . something (splitAt n)
19:29:57 <Hiato> ok, perfect, will try it, thanks oerjan
19:29:58 <oerjan> something may be mapAccumL, let me test
19:30:15 <oerjan> oh wait you said n portions
19:30:24 <Hiato> (heh, saves me from trying a million functions)
19:30:26 <oerjan> i answered portions of n each :)
19:30:34 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
19:30:51 <oerjan> also did you mean array or list?
19:31:39 <Hiato> on #haskell I as just told "list" is the word
19:32:11 <oerjan> haskell also has arrays, but they are used for different things
19:32:59 <Hiato> yeah, well, splitAt works just fine :P
19:33:08 <Hiato> I can then easily use tail/head etc
19:33:23 <oerjan> yes but mapAccumL was wrong. hm.
19:34:45 <oerjan> takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt 3) $ "abcdefghij"
19:34:53 <oerjan> is what i was trying at with the first
19:35:08 <oerjan> it still splits into parts of 3 though
19:35:39 <Hiato> ok, hrmm.. that may be useful, but not in my sorting algo, thanks anyway (PS: Haskell is da s4$t! man, is it awsome, just have to learn it first..)
19:36:48 <oerjan> it may be easier to collect things bottom up, as i recall
19:37:05 <oerjan> at least for a mergesort
19:37:30 <lament> "s4$t"? Please no swearing in the channel.
19:37:50 <Hiato> yeah, but I'm writing my own little sorting algorithm, based on arithmetic means and what have you
19:37:59 <Hiato> lament: I do apologise, I meant shit
19:38:13 <oklopol> yeah, haskell is pretty sast alright
19:39:15 <oklopol> well that was my comment on the whole s4$t thing, didn't realize lament already used it up.
19:40:20 <Hiato> er, anyone know how to grab the type of something, I can't remember.. it's not 'a' :: type, but I think it's close to that
19:40:26 <oklopol> and, so i cool up my coke in the freezer, wait for ages for it to be just perfect
19:40:40 <oklopol> then i sleep for 4 hours with the coke in room temperature next to the bed.
19:42:19 <oerjan> Hiato: um for what purpose?
19:42:29 <oerjan> to see the type, use :t in the interpreter
19:42:53 <oerjan> there is no such thing unadorned i think
19:43:22 <oerjan> asTypeOf can force something to have the same type as something else
19:43:34 <lament> if you want first class types you need the cock
19:43:59 <oerjan> i think the hen can work too (Agda)
19:44:32 <oerjan> (pun comprehensible to swedes and some norwegians only)
19:45:27 <oerjan> cock -> Coq, theorem assistant
19:45:39 <oerjan> name is french, refers to the bird
19:45:51 <lament> cock refers to the bird? Get it? Ha-ha.
19:46:13 <oerjan> as well as to a certain Coquand who probably invented the theory behind it
19:47:21 <oerjan> Agda II is a different theorem prover/programming language
19:47:45 <oerjan> a certain Catarina Coquand, who is _not_ i think the same, is involved in it
19:47:54 <oerjan> she lives in sweden afaiu
19:48:10 <lament> she's one cocky bastard
19:48:20 <oerjan> at least she's on chalmers.se
19:48:30 <oklopol> oerjan: and "hen", because..?
19:49:03 <Hiato> (in winhugs it's :type bleh)
19:49:58 <oerjan> oklopol: when investigating this, i saw no confession of it, but Catarina or someone else _must_ have intended Agda II as a pun on this mess
19:50:08 <Hiato> (yes, yes it does oerjan :P )
19:50:52 <oerjan> i.e. Coq <-> cock, Agda <-> hen, in a way involving an inside pun
19:52:35 <oklopol> oerjan: but, but.... how can a pun be so deep but not make any sense! :D
19:52:59 <oerjan> um what doesn't make sense?
19:53:31 <oklopol> well, probably just my face.
19:53:32 <oerjan> also, it nicely preserves the sexual innuendo of cock, since Hönan Agda is a raunchy song...
19:53:46 <oklopol> yeah, i gathered from the music video
19:54:09 <oklopol> okay, okay, i guess it made sense.
19:54:29 <oerjan> now i just need to find someone who admits it... :D
20:00:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agda_(theorem_prover)
20:09:20 <ais523> <gandhi_2> If monkeying around voids the warranty, fine. If monkeying around is outlawed...then only outlaws will have monkeys...er. um. wait.
20:10:01 <oerjan> well the most famous monkey guy in norway is also a pirate. but i digress.
20:10:14 <ais523> digressions are fun, though
20:10:45 <oerjan> i know nothing about those.
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20:12:31 <oerjan> hm i may be confused about that monkey thing.
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20:19:58 <Hiato> can someone tell me why this works?I hadn't finished writing the function and presto, seems to work, I thought I'd need a layer of recursion, but I guess not. max x =if head x == 0 then tail x else (map (head) (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x)))))
20:21:32 <AnMaster> Hiato, what language? Part of it looks like Lisp, part of it doesn't
20:21:45 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
20:22:03 -!- [Soap] has left (?).
20:22:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, just a guess, nothing else would look that messed up
20:22:36 <oerjan> well the indentation is messy
20:22:39 <AnMaster> also it was the only language you would react that way for
20:23:01 <oerjan> actually, unlambda might do too
20:23:02 <AnMaster> actually I disliked python before. But python 3.x is a lot nicer
20:23:09 <AnMaster> still the indention based block thing...
20:23:20 <AnMaster> well it has both bad and good points
20:23:36 <AnMaster> but python 3 is a lot nicer than 2.x IMO
20:24:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, I know unlambda looks totally different
20:24:22 <AnMaster> like `````li```d````````s```````k
20:24:42 <AnMaster> probably not THAT many `, but close
20:24:43 <ais523> AnMaster: in an Unlambda program there are always exactly 1 more non-` than `, unless you mess with I/O
20:24:56 <ais523> ```sii``sii for instance
20:24:56 * oerjan swats AnMaster again for good measure -----###
20:25:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? Well I don't claim to know the language
20:25:11 <AnMaster> just it is one of those that is easy to identify
20:25:32 <oerjan> Hiato: what the heck is that _supposed_ to do?
20:25:38 <AnMaster> even if I didn't know bf I would know it was bf, or some derivative
20:25:59 <Hiato> find the max value of a list, eg max [101,1,4,2,45,99] => 101
20:26:22 <ais523> that's trivial, just run the input as Mathematica
20:26:23 <oerjan> well the then part is clearly wrong
20:26:32 <oerjan> it has the wrong type to do what you want
20:26:32 <ais523> Max[101,1,4,2,45,99] is 101 in Mathematica, IIRC
20:26:38 <AnMaster> or that $$%#d$&?%$s///8236g5$$$)%&() was perl
20:26:55 <ais523> AnMaster: it is, it means "the current process ID modulo" and then the rest of the line is commented out
20:27:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you remove the # then?
20:27:38 <ais523> I think it's a syntax error starting from the third $
20:28:07 <ais523> $$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4}
20:28:09 <AnMaster> or that $$%d;$&?%$s;///82;36g5$$$);%&() was perl
20:28:33 <AnMaster> ais523, and "$$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4}" ?
20:28:45 <ais523> $a = scalar variable a
20:28:51 <ais523> $$a = the scalar that scalar variable a points to
20:29:00 <ais523> $$$a = the scalar that the scalar that scalar variable a points to
20:29:13 <ais523> it's both a unary and a binary operator
20:29:18 <oerjan> Hiato: for one thing you have many unnecessary parentheses
20:29:27 <ais523> also, $$a = the scalar that scalar variable a points to, but $$ = the current process ID
20:29:36 <AnMaster> headfloor > headdesk > facepalm
20:29:58 <AnMaster> remember to remove any glasses you have before
20:30:28 <AnMaster> btw is "glasses" or "spectacles" the most common word in English? I have heard both
20:30:30 <Hiato> oerjan, yeah, I noticed: max x = if head x == 0 then tail x else map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x)))
20:30:50 <oerjan> (0:reverse x) is also enough
20:31:05 <ais523> AnMaster: I hear glasses more often, but they're synonyms
20:31:10 <ais523> both words are ambiguous
20:31:15 <oerjan> however, that will only work for some lists
20:31:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I know they are synonyms
20:31:29 <ais523> "glasses" also means "glass cylinders with bases that people drink out of", sort of like "tumblers"
20:31:34 <AnMaster> also what about a non-ambiguous alternative?
20:31:36 <ais523> "spectacles" also means "things people like to watch"
20:31:46 <ais523> it's fun to have one word with multiple meanings
20:31:57 <AnMaster> right, I knew the first, just didn't think of it
20:31:57 <ais523> and there isn't an unambiguous alternative, although generally it's obvious from context
20:32:03 <oerjan> Hiato: it only works if the maximum is the first element and all the others are smaller
20:32:08 <ais523> did you know the second?
20:32:08 <AnMaster> and the second one is logical from the Swedish work spektakel
20:32:17 <oerjan> er, the last part is redundant :D
20:32:32 <ais523> oerjan: what if there's more than one maximum?
20:32:57 <AnMaster> ais523, we have an unambig. word in Swedish: glasögon (glasseyes, for some reason you say as pair of glasseyes, like you say a pair of pants, instead of one pant)
20:33:23 <Hiato> Main> maximum [101,1,4,2,45,6,3,7,102,97]
20:33:25 <AnMaster> Pthing, is that same as glasses/spectacles
20:33:38 <AnMaster> really? never heard "eyeglasses"
20:34:24 <oerjan> Hiato: sheesh, maximum is the builtin!!!!!!!!!
20:35:02 <oerjan> btw max is a builtin name too
20:35:33 <AnMaster> btw, do you read haskell from left to right or right to left?
20:35:56 <AnMaster> I mean both C and LISP are very much left to right, while perl is sometimes right to left (like die() if foo)
20:36:11 <oerjan> i think you got to vary with haskell
20:36:41 <AnMaster> ok C isn't always the right way around, assignment for example
20:36:42 <lament> haskell is backwards, forwards, and sideways
20:36:43 <oerjan> long . and $ combinations, you may need to go right to left
20:36:57 <lament> where is bottom-to-top
20:37:02 <AnMaster> like foo = a(b, c, &d->foo[3])
20:37:37 <Hiato> oerjan: yeah, so is length, but that didn't stop me from writing len x = if x==[] then 0 else rlen (x,0); rlen (x,n) = if head x==sum x then n+1 else rlen(tail x,n+1) and then len (x:xs) = if xs==[] then 1 else ln xs+1
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20:38:05 <Slereah2> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
20:38:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, I prefer languages that you read mostly in one direction
20:38:18 <oerjan> Hiato: huh? len is not the same as length
20:38:37 <AnMaster> C is very much left to right apart from the single case of assignment. where it would be more logical to put the variable you assign at the end
20:39:06 <Hiato> oerjan: er? basically, I'm just stuffing around, learning haskell
20:39:10 <oerjan> Hiato: unless you do some import hiding stuff, you _cannot_ redefine Prelude builtins
20:39:17 <AnMaster> scheme is mostly left to right (exception define's parameter order have the same issue as C's assignment, same for let)
20:39:32 <oerjan> Hiato: yes, but you have to test your functions with the name you have given them, duh
20:39:44 <oerjan> you wrote maximum above, that is the builtin
20:41:23 <AnMaster> one thing I dislike with many languages is that it is not always clear if you are acting on the same variable or a copy. Single assignment languages doesn't have a issue, nor does C, but for example C++ (references) and Perl seem to have this issue.
20:47:03 <Hiato> without malicious input: mx x = if head x == 0 then head (tail x) else mx (0:(reverse (map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) (0:reverse x)))))
20:47:12 <Hiato> ie [1,1,1] counts as horrible input
20:49:13 <Hiato> (actually, it doesn't break at all)
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20:49:44 <oerjan> does [0,1,2] count? ;D
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20:56:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about passing it a non-list? Oh wait if it is haskell that will just be a boring type error
20:56:51 <oerjan> duh duh duh duh, duh duh
21:04:06 <oerjan> i for one welcome our robot timelords
21:15:54 <fizzie> If you're doing sed expressions, you might as well do y/duh/IWC/ which will do the same thing.
21:42:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: in python, you're acting on the same variable, period.
21:43:30 <oklopol> but methods are either side-effective or un-side-effected.
21:43:42 <oklopol> 1234561310 <<< gettin close
21:43:51 <oklopol> it's gonna be so awesome :D
21:43:59 <oklopol> thank you whoever linked that, GregorR?
21:44:52 <oerjan> wait, it's that timestamp thing?
21:45:46 <oklopol> http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/ <<<
21:46:00 <nooga> YOU'VE JUST LOST IT
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21:46:47 <nooga> too much /b/, excuse me gentlemen
21:47:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:47:31 <oerjan> too /b/ or not too /b/
21:47:53 <ais523> nooga: this is #esoteric, we lost it ages ago
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21:48:26 <oklopol> so can anyone here control where they tickle? i can somewhat suppress it alread, but i cannot move it or yet
21:48:54 <ais523> oklopol: I still can't figure out what you're trying to say, even with the clarifications
21:48:56 <oklopol> when i press enter prematurely, it's a bit of a chaos as i write my sentences in random pieces.
21:49:02 <oerjan> AAAAAARGH, you had to mention tickling!
21:49:10 <oklopol> so can anyone here control where they tickle? i can somewhat suppress it already, but i cannot move it or create the sensation myself yet
21:49:18 * ais523 feather-dusters oerjan ----<<<
21:49:19 <AnMaster> <oklopol> AnMaster: in python, you're acting on the same variable, period. <-- say I want to do something like this (C code): foo(&myvariable)
21:49:33 <AnMaster> but when is it pass by value and when is it pass by reference
21:49:38 <oklopol> ohh, you actually meant variable
21:49:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, I meant pass by value/reference
21:49:51 <oklopol> you cannot pass a variable, period.
21:49:51 <oerjan> oklopol: itym "itching"
21:50:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, so when I want to act on a class I need to return the class to get the result?
21:50:28 <AnMaster> will that change myobject in place?
21:50:37 <AnMaster> it is an instance of a custom class
21:50:47 <oerjan> tickling of course is much worse
21:51:14 <oklopol> blah it's the semantics all languages have, i don't feel like trying to explain how it wurks.
21:52:27 <AnMaster> will that be pass by value or reference?
21:52:40 <oerjan> oklopol: i thought i implied a strong NO ...
21:53:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: always by reference
21:53:17 <oklopol> integers are just immutable
21:53:25 <oklopol> that is, their methods return copies.
21:53:52 <oklopol> you need to think about copying in general, it's just not an issue when doing function calls.
21:54:24 <oerjan> btw does anyone else have the effect where they scratch some place that is itching, and sometimes this consistently causes somewhere _else_ to itch?
21:55:23 * oerjan blames acupuncture lines, or something :D
21:55:43 <oklopol> it's most noticeable when it's someone else who's scratching you, the guiding process is like explaining a rollercoaster.
21:55:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, and I need to care since I'm doing stuff with the C API
21:56:15 <AnMaster> no I didn't write it, I just have to maintain it
21:56:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: if you're doing low-level stuff i need to inform you the ubiquitous-pass-by-reference thing is just how i see it, i don't actually know that much.
21:56:55 <oklopol> especially not how it works under the hood.
21:57:05 <oklopol> and why do i keep saying prematurely :<
21:59:08 <oklopol> the funny thing is that phenomenon happens even if i stop the itching somewhere mentally.
21:59:40 <nooga> pthreads do the work for me, time for massive protocol design
22:05:16 <ais523> another hour or si, I won't be online then probably
22:06:12 <oklopol> oerjan: ...didn't make sense at first, because i didn't open the song right away, and therefore didn't realize the song was about a hen named agda, thought agda was a verb there.
22:07:38 <oklopol> so i thought it was just a random path of references, the last in A->B->C->D only works in a pun if there's a relation between the first and last transitions imo.
22:07:53 <oklopol> but i don't know, i'm no pun theorist.
22:09:14 <nooga> isn't pun a little bit overused?
22:12:23 <nooga> dra til helvete :D
22:13:49 <ais523> oerjan: that was way below your usual standard
22:14:23 <oklopol> "puny" is kinda of a classic
22:15:46 <oerjan> ais523: nooga clearly described how low
22:21:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:22:58 <ais523> $ while true; do sleep 1; date +%s; done
22:25:54 <comex> I think the world will explode
22:27:40 <GregorR> Just wait 'til 2038 for that :P
22:28:11 <ais523> I wonder how bad the Y2038 bug will be?
22:28:24 <ais523> I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time
22:38:28 <nooga> is there any POSIX system function that allows to set file's last modification date?
22:38:43 <ais523> there's the command touch that does that
22:38:46 <ais523> and it has to use /some/ API
22:39:28 <ais523> why do you want to, by the way? just curious, there are at least 2 uses for touch that are relatively common
22:40:33 <nooga> because i'm trying to help my friend, he's writing something like ummmm.... svn
22:40:41 <nooga> and my job is to write the server
22:40:56 <nooga> it's am idiotic school project
22:40:58 <ais523> ah, hadn't thought of that one
22:56:54 <nooga> over 9000 errors again
22:59:12 <oklopol> ##1234567890 is the coolest thing i've ever seen
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23:00:26 <ais523> wow is that a busy channel
23:00:48 <ais523> <nighthwk1> I haven't seen this much crap in an IRC channel since efnet!
23:01:15 <oklopol> reminds me of when i made my own ircd
23:01:39 <GregorR> May aaaaaall our timestamps beeeeeeeee forgot aaaaand neeeeeever are they siiiiiiiiigned! For todaaaaaaaaaaaay when we print deeeeeeeeecimal, there's a patterrrrrrrrn in UNIX tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime
23:01:44 <oklopol> and my friend put his bot up, and a few guys copypasted about a million lines of commands for the bot, i just watched the flood all night
23:04:28 <oklopol> i knew that too, but still awesome
23:05:18 <nooga> while true ; do date ; date +%s ; sleep 1 ; clear ; done
23:05:39 <nooga> preparations for printscreen :D
23:07:29 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:14:20 <GregorR> WTF?! 0x50000000 is on a Friday 13th too! (July, 2012)
23:14:43 <ais523> friday 13th on a round epoch number day... in 2012?
23:14:51 <ais523> I think we now know when the end of the world is
23:15:25 <ais523> GregorR: that's in UTC, presumably
23:15:46 <GregorR> ais523: It's 11AM EST though, so it's Friday 13th in most timezones.
23:16:10 <nooga> sob, 14 lut 2009, 00:15:55 CET
23:16:23 <nooga> i will happen soon ;d
23:17:11 <lament> ooh ooh ooh ooh yes! yes! don't stop!!
23:23:48 <pikhq> Hmm. Not all that long until 1234567890, UNIX time.
23:24:06 <oklopol> pikhq: ##1234567890 <<< come it's cool
23:24:07 <GregorR> pikhq: Welcome to being the last person to notice that :P
23:24:16 <GregorR> But go to ###1234567890 instead
23:24:24 <pikhq> GregorR: I was aware, just now started watching.
23:24:29 <nooga> indeed ++S.S is valid in C
23:24:55 <GregorR> nooga: Is that ++(S.S) or (++S).S? (++S).S makes no sense as far as I can guses.
23:25:42 <ais523> <lambdabot> Maximum users seen in ##1234567890: 1110, currently: 1110 (100.0%), active: 402 (36.2%)
23:25:57 <ais523> a channel with 402 /active/ users?
23:26:21 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofol.
23:26:36 -!- oklofol has changed nick to oklopol.
23:26:38 <nooga> GregorR: don't believe?
23:27:16 <GregorR> nooga: I don't recall the precedence, I believe you if that's the same as ++(S.S)
23:27:38 * ais523 is trying to hold a conversation in ##1234567890, it seems funnier that way
23:30:48 <ais523> 9 and 0 come into place simultaneously
23:31:30 <ais523> happy 1234567890, everyone!
23:32:31 <oklopol> happy cool timestamp to all
23:32:45 * ais523 loves programming holidays
23:33:25 <GregorR> Now to wait for 0x50000000, Friday the 13th, July 2012.
23:34:01 <oklopol> but... how come cool timestamps come less often than normal holidays :<
23:34:38 <oklopol> i would've banned everyone on the instant it happened :)
23:34:46 <ais523> oklopol: the ban list there was full
23:34:57 <oklopol> but you can do more general banz
23:35:01 <ais523> but I suppose +b *@*!* would do
23:35:05 <ais523> nah, they should have done /cs recover
23:35:26 <oklopol> maybe even just before, just to be annoying.
23:35:45 <nooga> http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8719/12345657890jz4.jpg taaadaaaaaaaaaaa
23:37:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:38:34 <nooga> whaddaya think? :D
23:40:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?).
23:41:27 <nooga> 00:34 < oklopol> but you can do more general banz
23:41:42 <nooga> I do most specific benz
23:42:05 <nooga> a vintage mercedes-benz
23:42:56 <nooga> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ see how one benz is exactly upon another benz
23:45:48 <nooga> YO DAWG, I HERD U LIKE THREADS, SO WE PUT A THREAD IN YOUR THREAD SO YOU CAN LOCK MUTEX WHILE YOU LOCK MUTEX
23:52:42 <nooga> it was a bit /b/ish