←2009-02-13 2009-02-14 2009-02-15→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:03:31 <oklopol> o
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00:09:44 <nooga> o
00:24:37 <oklopol> GregorR: i demand ops on ##0x50000000
00:27:40 <oklopol> thank you mister greggie
00:34:36 * GregorR is running a script to compile and run his program with every GCC optimization option (one by one), and time them.
00:34:55 <oklopol> all combinations too?
00:35:09 <GregorR> No, that would take too long (EXP is a bad complexity class :P )
00:35:40 <nooga> and what is the overall shape of the results?
00:35:47 <GregorR> It's not done yet.
00:36:02 <oklopol> well i don't know how many orthogonal options there are.
00:37:22 <GregorR> Probably a few, but this will at least get me somewhere.
00:38:15 <oklopol> there should be an option for getting the absolute best gcc can offer, no matter how long it takes
00:38:23 <nooga> ahh
00:38:32 <nooga> bed awaits
00:38:32 <GregorR> That wouldn't be difficult to write, it would just take 2^{number of options} time.
00:38:34 <nooga> c u
00:38:44 <oklopol> like "optimize for N seconds"
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00:39:53 <oklopol> i think i need to sleep too.
00:39:55 <oklopol> ~>
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02:52:34 <comex> that doesn't handle PGO
02:52:52 <comex> ok
02:52:59 <comex> question for #esoteric
02:56:29 <comex> actually, I'm going to use prlog
02:56:31 <comex> :o
02:58:35 <kerlo> How dare you not ask your question. >:-(
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03:59:49 * pikhq has discovered the most pleasantly absurd DOS project...
03:59:56 <pikhq> HX DOS-Extender.
04:00:22 <pikhq> Implements a subset of Win32, sufficient for running many single-window GUI applications which use DirectDraw, GDI, or OpenGL.
04:00:58 <pikhq> One program that runs under it is... DOSbox.
04:09:04 <GregorR> Yeah, it's pretty cool.
04:09:28 <GregorR> And dosbox is actually useful, as putting layers between you and the game makes it run slower.
04:11:42 <pikhq> Yeah. It's even *more* absurd that it's genuinely useful.
04:11:56 <pikhq> (assuming you're in DOS, of course)
04:12:12 <pikhq> ... Hmm. I should try and get that XT in the room running some day.
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14:21:57 <ehird> 00:36:27 <bsmntbombdood> it's funny how every technical chanel has an extremely knowledgable person who is also a total dick
14:21:59 <ehird> 00:36:40 <oklofok> is it ehird?
14:22:01 <ehird> 00:37:00 <bsmntbombdood> trbw is #math's, zhivago is ##c's, riadstrat is #scheme's
14:22:03 <ehird> 00:37:04 <bsmntbombdood> we don't have one
14:22:05 <ehird> yeah
14:22:07 <ehird> totally me
14:22:09 <ehird> :p
14:22:11 <ehird> also, zhivago is tolerable because poppavic is worse
14:22:13 <ehird> riastradthtdhjthdjth is really irritating though
14:22:23 <ais523> is that nick too long for freenode?
14:23:11 <ehird> dunno, but he has a stupid name that nobody can spell.
14:23:26 <ehird> this is a good thing because if you have trouble replying he talks to you less
14:23:35 <ehird> 09:44:08 * AnMaster sighs.
14:23:35 <ehird> 09:44:20 <AnMaster> Why this recent interested in eso-codewar?
14:23:49 <ehird> god, does AnMaster have to complain every time something is happening that he's not interested in?
14:24:04 <ais523> it looked like curiosity rather than complaint
14:24:23 <AnMaster> ais523, you are correct
14:24:27 <ehird> "* AnMaster sighs." is pretty much complaint, especially in future context "<AnMaster> well I never found it very interesting"
14:26:01 <ehird> 10:45:06 <ais523> I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each
14:26:03 <ehird> not haskell, no
14:26:10 <ehird> ++ would have to be a binary operator
14:26:12 <ais523> even if you override ++ to be unary?
14:26:15 <ehird> you can't
14:26:16 <ais523> or can't you do that?
14:26:18 <ais523> ah, ok
14:26:20 <ehird> operator names can only be binary
14:26:26 <ehird> operator name = symbol+
14:27:15 <ehird> 10:52:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also ++ in erlang means "concat lists", and is useless because it is slow on large lists unless you concat one element at head, and then you would use [H|T] anyway
14:27:26 <ehird> 10:52:33 <AnMaster> so useless in any real code
14:27:27 <ehird> heh
14:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, see also further discussion
14:27:30 <ehird> (++) is the same in Haskell, but efficient due to laziness
14:27:44 <AnMaster> interesting
14:27:48 <ais523> ah, of course
14:27:57 <ais523> the concat doesn't happen until you've finished reading the first list
14:27:59 <ais523> and from there, it's trivial
14:28:00 <ehird> right
14:28:08 <ehird> it's just:
14:28:13 <ehird> [] ++ b = b
14:28:22 <ehird> (x:xs) ++ b = x : xs ++ b
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14:33:08 <ehird> 11:00:10 <oerjan> i don't think so. ++ S . S implies S is a function and i don't think you can achieve that.
14:33:09 <ehird> sure you can
14:33:12 <ehird> data constructor
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14:47:26 <ehird> 11:49:03 <Hiato> (in winhugs it's :type bleh)
14:47:29 <ehird> _winhugs_?
14:47:36 <ehird> whoa, it's 2003.
14:48:21 <ais523> and the 49th day of November/
14:48:37 <ehird> verily.
14:50:16 <ehird> 12:28:07 <ais523> $$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4}
14:50:23 <ehird> hahahahahahaha I love perl I'm going to kill larry wall.
14:51:02 <ais523> I love perl too, but not to the extent when I want to kill its author
14:51:09 <ehird> 12:30:30 <Hiato> oerjan, yeah, I noticed: max x = if head x == 0 then tail x else map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x)))
14:51:14 <ehird> wow that function makes no sense at all.
14:51:18 <ais523> to be even more fun, $$%d{4} would be correct in Perl6, whereas $$$d{4} wouldn't
14:51:41 <ais523> in Perl5, I'd probably write it as $${$d{4}} to be clearer, though
14:51:55 <olsner> that makes it really clear yeah
14:51:56 <ais523> or even ${${$d{4}}} to avoid a potential ambiguity with the nonexistent %$ hash
14:52:04 <ehird> LOL Hiato was testing his function as the builtin
14:52:08 <ehird> (he wrote max and tested maximum)
14:52:11 <ehird> hahaha :DD
14:52:21 <ehird> i wonder how many tries it took
14:52:27 <ais523> 1, obviously
14:52:33 <ehird> no, I bet he had a serious bug.
14:52:42 <ais523> but he tested the wrong function
14:52:44 <ais523> so it worked first time
14:52:54 <ehird> it was a joke.
14:52:55 <ehird> 12:37:37 <Hiato> oerjan: yeah, so is length, but that didn't stop me from writing len x = if x==[] then 0 else rlen (x,0); rlen (x,n) = if head x==sum x then n+1 else rlen(tail x,n+1) and then len (x:xs) = if xs==[] then 1 else ln xs+1
14:52:56 <ehird> what the frack
14:53:02 <ehird> have you written a markov chain that outputs haskell
14:53:22 <ais523> "that didn't stop me from writing", brilliant
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14:53:36 <ehird> 12:40:23 <Hiato> I raelise now
14:53:39 <ehird> aliens
14:53:48 <ehird> /obscure
14:54:35 <olsner> heh, awesome: if head x == sum x ...
14:54:47 <ski__> Hiato> rlen [0,1,-1]
14:54:54 <ehird> olsner: I know XD
14:55:03 <ehird> ski__: no, len
14:55:04 <ehird> not rlen
14:55:07 <ehird> len calls rlen
14:55:08 <olsner> where are you getting this from?
14:55:13 <ehird> olsner: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.02.13
14:55:14 <ski__> um, yes
14:55:41 <ski__> len [0,1,-1] = rlen ([0,1,-1],0) = 0+1 = 1
14:55:52 <ehird> hahahahahaah
14:55:58 <ehird> what the heckkkk
14:56:19 <ski__> (since `head [0,1,-1] = 0 = sum [0,1,-1]')
14:56:35 <ehird> 13:56:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: if you're doing low-level stuff i need to inform you the ubiquitous-pass-by-reference thing is just how i see it, i don't actually know that much.
14:56:40 <ehird> yeah, python is all pass by object reference
14:56:45 <ehird> that is, it passes a reference to the object in the variable
14:56:49 <ehird> not a reference to the variable
14:57:11 <ehird> sorry, I've been away for a whoooole day so I'm megalogreading.
14:59:37 <olsner> wow, that haskell code is awesome
15:00:02 <ehird> it's expressionist haskell.
15:00:29 <ehird> 14:28:11 <ais523> I wonder how bad the Y2038 bug will be?
15:00:29 <ehird> 14:28:24 <ais523> I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time
15:00:34 <ehird> Hopefully we'll all be on 64-bit or higher systems by then.
15:00:38 <ais523> yes
15:00:54 <ais523> except for a few critical government systems, which are still 16-bit for some odd reason
15:00:54 <ehird> Funnay option: the singularity will upgrade us all to infinity-bits, but time is irrelevant and bendable at our will so we forget all about it.
15:01:23 <ais523> I think the singularity won't actually happen
15:01:31 <ais523> look at wikipedia, it was exponential for a while then became linear
15:01:43 <ais523> I expect something similar will happen to technological progress
15:01:59 <ehird> ais523: I'm skeptical too, but for another reason: I'm not sure humans can create smarter-than-human AI.
15:02:12 <ehird> After all, if we can understand intelligence smarter than us, that's a paradox. We'd have to be that smart.
15:02:48 <ehird> I may be incorrect, but I haven't seen a good argument why.
15:03:49 <ehird> (More generally, I don't see how X intelligence can understand X+Y intelligence, for any X and Y.)
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15:05:37 <ehird> ##1234567890:
15:05:38 <ehird> [15:05:23] <ehird> hi guys am I too late for the party??
15:05:51 <ais523> was there any response?
15:05:55 <ais523> also, it was ridiculous
15:05:57 <ehird> [15:05:39] <MinceR> indeed
15:05:57 <ehird> [15:05:45] <ehird> :slowpoke:
15:06:00 <ais523> it was a massively spam channel
15:06:01 <ehird> define ridiculous
15:06:11 <ais523> there were over 1000 people there
15:06:16 <ais523> and over 400 of them were talking simultaneously
15:06:16 <ehird> hee
15:06:30 <ais523> 400 people talking simultaneously really is ridiculous
15:06:37 <ehird> the most active channel I've seen was, I think, the lilo memorial channel.
15:06:51 <ais523> comex pasted Agora's rule 105 into the channel, and it just got lost in the general mess
15:06:54 <ehird> where everybody's "rest in piece" was a unique and special snowflake that everyone must see!
15:07:03 <ais523> what happened to lilo?
15:07:11 <ehird> ais523: he died in 2006
15:07:14 <ehird> bike got hit by a car
15:07:17 <ehird> -> coma -> dead
15:07:23 <ais523> oh, I thought it was a bootloader
15:07:24 <ehird> you didn't know?
15:07:26 <ehird> oh.
15:07:26 <ehird> ha
15:07:29 <ehird> ais523: founder of freenode
15:07:31 <ais523> is there a person by that name too?
15:07:33 <ais523> ah, and ok
15:07:36 <ais523> that would make sense
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15:08:32 <ehird> [15:07:54] <ink_angry> i camed here when there was 100 peoples and dont part it bigger then 40 min when i was banned)
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15:08:50 <ais523> also, the ban list ended up full
15:08:59 <ehird> Unsurprising
15:09:12 <ais523> but there was no time to find a staffer to increase it before the event happened
15:09:16 <ehird> 15:01:15 <oklopol> reminds me of when i made my own ircd
15:09:18 <ehird> I still wanna do that
15:09:29 <ehird> 15:14:43 <ais523> friday 13th on a round epoch number day... in 2012?
15:09:29 <ehird> 15:14:51 <ais523> I think we now know when the end of the world is
15:09:32 <ais523> I want to write an IRC client in INTERCAL
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15:09:38 <ehird> Spacetime will bend so that it is 21st december.
15:09:44 <ais523> ?
15:09:53 <ehird> 2012-12-21 is the definitive End of the World day.
15:10:00 <ais523> ah, ok
15:10:05 <ehird> According to New Agers making assumptions about the Mayans.
15:10:13 <ehird> Man, it'll be so funny to see that day pass.
15:10:14 <ais523> yes, the Mayans didn't predict the end of the world
15:10:20 <ehird> I predict mass suicides immediately beforehand.
15:10:23 <ais523> just a mass extinction, in which all but a few humans are transformed into animals
15:10:33 <ehird> so, no change?
15:10:33 <ehird> :P
15:10:34 <ais523> and the world's terrain massively changes, although they didn't know what into
15:11:07 <ehird> I bet there was an off-by-one
15:11:10 <ehird> and it's actually the day after.
15:12:08 <ais523> well, I don't want the end of the world to happen
15:12:20 <ais523> how come the Mayans, in particular, get all the credence for prediciting it?
15:12:40 <ehird> because they're mystic and supposedly really clever.
15:12:41 <ais523> Discordianism thinks something major will happen in 9661, how could it if the world had ended at the time?
15:12:45 <ehird> and because new agers are idiots
15:14:19 <ais523> I think I've just found the best Slashdot car analogy ever: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1127743&cid=26852283
15:14:39 <ehird> amazing
15:15:26 <ais523> now I just have to figure out what it means...
15:15:44 <ehird> I think it's God, converted to a string.
15:16:56 <ehird> 16:38:15 <oklopol> there should be an option for getting the absolute best gcc can offer, no matter how long it takes
15:17:03 <ehird> -O9001
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15:17:14 <ais523> -F from C-INTERCAL, obviously
15:18:59 <ehird> hmm...IMAP lets you forge arbitrary messages on the server? neat
15:20:37 <ehird> http://offsystem.sourceforge.net/ <-- Copyright law intent fail
15:21:43 <ais523> I think they're missing the point
15:21:52 <ehird> Very.
15:21:56 <ais523> clearly, it's the data that's copyrighted not the encoding
15:22:03 <ais523> and equally clearly, the data exists, or it couldn't be retrieved
15:22:06 <ehird> Yes.
15:22:16 <ehird> And also, semantic lies are useless.
15:22:18 <ehird> It's all about intent.
15:22:22 <ehird> [ see http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php ]
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15:34:22 <ais523> incidentally, Mon Feb 16 16:51:37 UTC 2009 is 0x49999999 seconds since the epoch
15:34:26 <ais523> although that's clearly cheating a bit
15:35:31 <ais523> heh, http://www.google.com/logos/unix1234567890.gif
15:35:35 <ehird> surely 16:51:38 is more interesting
15:35:38 <ehird> oh, right
15:35:39 <ehird> hex
15:35:40 <ais523> if even Google celebrates it, it must be a major holiday
15:35:52 <ehird> ais523: I hope that only went up for one second
15:36:04 <ais523> I don't know, although reports are it wasn't up for very long
15:36:05 <ehird> also, the 0 at the end is so. arbitrary.
15:36:08 <ais523> so maybe it was just the one second
15:36:12 <ehird> 0123456789 was more impressive
15:36:23 <ais523> the 0's to the right of a 9 on a computer keyboard
15:36:34 <ehird> I know
15:36:37 <ehird> it's still arbitrary as hell
15:37:24 <ehird> 0123456789 = 29 nov 1973, 21:33:09
15:37:28 <ais523> 1234625847
15:37:32 <ais523> 1234625851
15:37:34 <ais523> 1234625853
15:37:36 <ais523> 1234625856
15:37:55 <ais523> it's amazing how fast a few tens of thousands of seconds can fly past
15:38:07 <ehird> yep
15:38:21 <ehird> I wonder how many planck times in a second. (note: trivial to find out.)
15:38:32 <ehird> although,
15:38:42 <ehird> According to quantum theory, 1 Planck time should be the smallest unit of time physics can reason about in a meaningful way. But according to news reports, analyses of Hubble Space Telescope Deep Field images in 2003 raised a possible discrepancy. Very distant images that should have been blurry were not, contradicting the notion that Planck time is indeed the smallest measurable unit of time.[5][6][7]
15:38:43 <ehird> time should be continuou
15:38:44 <ehird> s
15:38:54 <ehird> it's purer
15:39:20 <ehird> 5.39124 * (10^(-44)) = 5.39124 × 10-44
15:39:21 <ehird> thx google
15:39:34 <ehird> er, oops.
15:39:45 * ehird read the wp article wrong
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15:48:49 <ehird> ais523: that's surprisingly ugly/hacked up for a google logos
15:48:50 <ehird> *logo
15:48:59 <ehird> also, kind of obscure for them to reference.
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15:49:18 <ehird> http://www.google.com/holidaylogos.html not here
15:49:22 <ais523> well, it's a UNIX time celebration, a UNIX command makes sense
15:49:29 <ehird> well yeah
15:49:30 <ais523> I don't think it was a holiday logo, more a one-off 1-second joke
15:49:59 <ehird> if it was really only up for a second, I wanna marry the guy that did that
15:50:03 <ehird> wait, is google based in california? fuck.
15:50:15 <ehird> /lame
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15:50:52 <ehird> http://www.google.com/customlogos.html this page is horrendous, but, go to the end and see retro google logos
15:50:57 <ehird> totally hilarious
15:56:02 <chuck> ehird: the logo was only up for a few minutes, I think
15:56:11 <ehird> aw
15:56:12 <chuck> I checked google before and after, and it was up, but then 30 minutes later it was down
15:56:18 <ehird> hi chuck, haven't seen you before
15:56:40 <ais523> I don't remember seeing chuck talk here before
15:56:44 <ais523> although it's a common enough name
15:56:51 <ais523> chuck: what brings you here
15:56:55 <chuck> hi ehird and ais523
15:57:05 <chuck> i dunno, i just had this window open and I thought I'd look to see what it was ^_^'
15:57:12 <ehird> :)
15:57:16 <ais523> clicked on a link here by mistake?
15:57:24 <ais523> welcome, anyway
15:57:28 <ehird> we should googlebomb Barack Obama to this place or something
15:57:30 <chuck> heh, thanks
15:57:31 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Say something impressive, fungot
15:57:31 <fungot> Say something impressive, fungot
15:57:39 <ehird> hmm
15:57:42 <ehird> that contained the words
15:57:44 <ais523> Say something else impressive fungot!
15:57:45 <fungot> ais523: if that's not apparent without knowledge of a fuctional language. if only inequalities are supported in gauche's native encoding?
15:57:50 <ehird> "we", "should", "bomb", "barack", "obama"
15:57:52 <ehird> should we be worried?
15:58:01 <ais523> well, we shouldn't
15:58:23 * chuck sucks at brainfuck and all other esoteric langs.
15:58:25 <ais523> ^style
15:58:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
15:58:31 <ais523> ^style ic
15:58:32 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
15:58:41 <chuck> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>.
15:58:41 <fungot> M
15:58:42 <ais523> fungot: let's mess with this style a bit more, I haven't seen it for a while
15:58:43 <fungot> ais523: the j-intercal implementation of this sentence was going to write a portable program.
15:58:44 <chuck> yey
15:58:50 <ehird> hahaha
15:59:04 <ais523> fungot: obviously, it changed its mind
15:59:05 <fungot> ais523: e621 error type 621 encountered at runtime.
15:59:16 <ehird> fungot is broken!
15:59:17 <fungot> ehird: the parentheses here are those that the c-intercal compiler, what operating system. however, a compiler). the dormant thread in which it would be allowed by placing them between' and other such system libraries. if you do somehow find a copy onto the code to be precise, in situations where a group is opened inside an array subscript
15:59:18 <ehird> :D
15:59:34 <ais523> fungot: that makes considerably less sense than before...
15:59:35 <fungot> ais523: the clc-intercal compiler, but an attempt to mix those with intercal) are created by multiple `come from's or `next from'.
16:00:05 <ais523> do we have any esobots in here at the moment, other than fungot?
16:00:06 <fungot> ais523: this is to allow abstaining from the previous character code, and anywhere that c source code form; this means that before using it, create a choicepoint is created containing the syntax is
16:00:32 <chuck> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++<-]>.>++++++++++[>++++<-]>+.
16:00:33 <fungot> :)
16:00:43 <chuck> woo
16:01:15 <ehird> chuck: fungot is written in befunge-98
16:01:16 <fungot> ehird: this restriction was not implemented at all by most mainstream languages. the explanation is in clc-intercal ( which deprecates `next'.)
16:01:32 <ehird> chuck: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
16:01:33 <fungot> ehird: however, this means that the number, and j-intercal. computed `come from' behaviour, the most recent existing version.
16:02:00 <ais523> wow, it's only after watching fungot chatter for a while that I realise how concerned I was with portability when writing the INTERCAL manual
16:02:01 <fungot> ais523: using gnu tar tar xzvf ick-0-29.pax.gz or tar xqvf ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or bunzip2 ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or gunzip ick-0-29.pax.gz tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or bunzip2 ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax
16:02:03 <chuck> ehird: haha, nice
16:02:27 <ais523> I'm /almost/ tempted to try to run that command
16:02:35 <chuck> i know someone that wrote an extension of brainfuck to write a brainfuck bot that parses brainfuck
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16:05:27 <ehird> oklofok: hi
16:06:25 <ehird> omfg
16:06:28 <ehird> my hostname just got cahnged behind my back
16:06:30 <ehird> how dare it
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16:08:00 -!- kar8nga3 has changed nick to kar8nga.
16:08:24 <ais523> ehird: what was it, and what is it now?
16:08:40 <ehird> was bournemouth, and os x changed it to elliott-hirds-imac behind my back somehow.
16:08:53 <ais523> that's a ridiculous change
16:09:02 <ehird> ah, I see why it happened
16:09:08 <ehird> technically, it shouldn't have persisted past the upgrade anyway
16:09:12 <ehird> so it working was just a fluke
16:09:54 <ehird> fixed
16:10:05 <ehird> sudo ed /etc/hostconfig; $; a; HOSTNAME=bournemouth; .; w; q
16:10:15 <ehird> guess I have to restart, grumble
16:10:42 <ais523> ed?
16:10:51 <ehird> yes, ed.
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16:12:16 <ehird> ais523: why "ed?"?
16:13:00 <ais523> it seems strange for you to use for a quick edit
16:13:09 <ais523> given that vi is almost certainly available, and has all the same commands
16:13:21 <ehird> vi does not have an identical command-set
16:13:27 <ais523> near enough
16:13:33 <ehird> nope
16:13:35 <ehird> in that exaple,
16:13:36 <ehird> $ = G
16:13:39 <ehird> a = o
16:13:44 <ehird> . = <ESC>
16:13:48 <ehird> w = :w
16:13:50 <ehird> q = q<ENTER>
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16:42:01 <ehird> i wonder why anyone uses the gnu userland
16:42:03 <ehird> :|
16:42:15 <ais523> because it has so many random useful features?
16:42:24 <ehird> random, yes, useful, uh...
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16:44:16 <ehird> grr, organizing ~/Code is hard
16:44:29 <ehird> I just have so many random projects that I dunno how to avoid having 1,000+ directories in it
16:44:59 <ais523> I have a ~/esoteric
16:45:11 <ehird> I have ~/Code/esolangs now but I dislike i t
16:45:16 <ais523> and separate directories for non-eso projects
16:45:32 <ehird> ditto, but you don't understand how many projects I have
16:45:47 <ais523> how many are started and quickly abandoned?
16:46:00 <ehird> 99%
16:46:01 <ehird> % ls /Previous\ Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird/Documents/Code|wc -l
16:46:01 <ehird> 805
16:46:22 <ehird> (% ls -R /Previous\ Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird/Documents/Code|wc -l, on the other hand, hasn't terminated yet.)
16:46:26 <ehird> now it has
16:46:27 <ehird> 28631
16:46:37 <ehird> (note: I do have some downloaded projects in here, but even so)
16:46:41 <ehird> (as in, not my code)
16:47:43 <ais523> $ ls -R /home/ais523/esoteric/ | wc -l
16:47:44 <ais523> 151580
16:47:52 <ais523> that's cheating, though, I think
16:48:01 <ais523> I'm pretty sure there's at least one gcc source tree in there somewhere, possibly two
16:48:07 <ehird> heh
16:49:16 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:49:36 <ehird> wow, we last changed our topic days ago
16:50:05 <ehird> 2009-02-06
16:50:08 -!- ehird has set topic: 07:38:13 --- topic: set to '#esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.' by ehird.
16:50:10 <ehird> err
16:50:11 <ehird> oops
16:50:23 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page..
16:50:35 <ehird> (technically, the logs are on bespin.org; tunes.org just happens to be hosted on bespin
16:50:44 <ehird> )
16:53:05 <ehird> hmm, wonder what I should write el ircd in
16:53:24 <ais523> INTERCAL
16:53:45 <ehird> no
16:53:49 <ehird> :D
16:53:57 <ais523> Funge?
16:54:01 <ehird> no
16:54:02 <ehird> :D
16:54:04 <ais523> it's pretty high-level as esolangs go
16:54:11 <ais523> redcode
16:54:17 <ehird> no
16:54:17 <ehird> :D
16:54:19 <ais523> that isn't even an esolang, technically speaking
16:55:36 <pikhq> It's more of a domain-specific language, really.
16:56:19 <ais523> grr... why does redcode not have preincrement
16:59:06 <ais523> or a command to make programs work backwards, that would work just as well
17:08:09 <ehird> btw, I discussed an OISC corewar with impomatic
17:08:15 <ehird> we couldn't find an OISC that could do an imp in one instruction
17:08:18 <ehird> :(
17:08:40 <ais523> OISC corewar, I love it
17:09:09 <ehird> ais523: yep, it has several odd requirements
17:09:10 <ais523> there are MOV-based OISCs, with memory-mapped instruction pointers and arithmetic
17:09:10 <ehird> like:
17:09:13 <ehird> also
17:09:16 <ehird> that sucks
17:09:17 <ais523> they could do imps, but not much else easily
17:09:19 <ehird> that's just cheating
17:09:24 <ehird> it's just moving instructions into memory
17:09:25 <ehird> lam
17:09:26 <ehird> e
17:09:33 <ais523> ehird: it's how WireWorld was proved a bounded-storage machine
17:09:35 <ehird> anyway, all addresses have to be relative to the ip
17:09:37 <ehird> stuff like that is fun :D
17:09:56 <ais523> what about a MiniMAX corewar?
17:10:17 <ehird> meh
17:10:25 <ais523> probably wouldn't work, because you can't safely read or write to any element in MiniMAX unless you have a nearby known instruction
17:10:31 <ehird> yeah
17:13:02 <ehird> ais523: what were your BF joust ideas? I'm working on my own hill
17:13:17 <ehird> with a web interface that DOESN'T require you select each competitor manually...
17:13:27 <ehird> I'm also thinking of it showing a view of the tape
17:13:35 <ehird> with your competitor's current cell highlighted
17:13:39 <ais523> pretty much here, I was planning mostly the tape view
17:13:40 <ehird> (animated)
17:13:50 <ais523> except I was planning something that showed both programs, as more of a practice thing
17:13:54 <ehird> ais523: what
17:13:58 <ehird> I was asking your ideas for the mechanics.
17:14:09 <ais523> oh, mechanics
17:14:45 <ais523> same as before, except . is explicit NOP, tape length is from 10 to 50 inclusive (uniform distribution), you lose if your flag is at 0 at the end of two consecutive cycles (it can be -+ or something in between)
17:15:09 <ais523> if Goethe's unwilling to make it official, I'll happily play you at it unofficially
17:15:24 <ehird> I like those, except for explicit NOP I'm probably making any non-BF char a nop
17:17:54 <ais523> then you can't have comments easily
17:18:13 <ais523> and if you think about it, a . is a one-cycle nop if you have "output" but it isn't connected to anything
17:18:27 <ehird> ais523: comments are useless
17:18:32 <ehird> since others won't see them
17:18:37 <ehird> also, this is useful for a nano hill
17:18:41 <ehird> i.e., you can do length limits sanely
17:18:55 <ais523> ah yes, I was going to propose a relatively small length limit
17:19:24 <ehird> I'm going to have multiple hills, probably
17:19:29 <ehird> Free-for-all unlimited classical hill
17:19:30 <ehird> nano hill
17:19:33 <ehird> cycle hill
17:19:33 <ehird> etc
17:19:39 <ais523> if you have arbitrary-length programs that are limited to only run for a finite length of time, you can do if(*p==0), if(*p!=0), while(*p==0), and while(*p!=0) each in one cycle
17:19:49 <ais523> but the program ends up massively long because it needs to be duplicated a lot
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17:20:23 <ehird> yes
17:20:23 <ehird> still
17:20:33 <ehird> err
17:20:38 <ehird> not in one cycle...
17:20:40 <ehird> cycle = instruction
17:20:51 <ais523> yes, in one cycle, for the branch
17:20:58 <ais523> you have to unroll the while loops
17:21:31 <ehird> ah
17:21:34 <ehird> in my scoring, btw,
17:21:38 <ehird> err
17:21:40 <ehird> my cycle scoring,
17:22:08 <ehird> ,[.,] with input "abc" would take 9 cycles
17:22:13 <ehird> executing like:
17:22:30 <ehird> , [ . , ] . , ] . , ]
17:22:39 <ais523> sounds fair
17:22:45 <ehird> err, that's 11 cycles
17:22:50 <ais523> remember to implement defined semantics for simultaneous ] with +
17:22:59 <ehird> huh?
17:23:00 <ais523> it doesn't matter what they are, but they should be fair and consistent
17:23:17 <ais523> if one program runs ] and the other one runs +, should the ] test the original or incremented value?
17:23:33 <ehird> hmm, I don't think ] should execute each loop cycle
17:23:35 <ehird> I think it should be
17:23:41 <ehird> , [ . , [ . , [ . , ]
17:23:44 <ehird> yeah, that makes sense
17:23:49 <ehird> [ = start of loop iteration
17:23:51 <ehird> ] = end of loop
17:24:06 <ehird> ais523: ah
17:24:18 <ais523> ehird: that doesn't really make sense from a programmatic point of view, though
17:24:22 <ais523> also, it doesn't really matter
17:24:29 <ehird> yes, I'm trying for purity here
17:24:39 <oklofok> purrrrity
17:25:11 <ehird> ais523: it'd check the original value
17:25:17 <ehird> since ] is never actually executed in my expansion ther
17:25:17 <ehird> e
17:25:28 <ehird> and by the time [ is executed, we've already decided to loop again
17:25:41 <ehird> on the other hand
17:25:53 <ehird> you could argue that you should never hit a [ when the current cell will be 0 inside the loop
17:25:55 <ehird> so hm
17:26:40 <ehird> , [ . , ] . , ] . , ] is a better semantic, then
17:26:44 <ehird> hm
17:26:53 <ehird> ,[.,] with no input should be ,]
17:26:56 <ehird> as an execution path, I think
17:26:58 <ehird> ais523: do you agree?
17:27:11 <ais523> I think ,[
17:27:15 <ais523> and the [ jumps to after the ]
17:27:17 <ehird> I think that nop loops should cost one cycle, even though they do nothing, since the checking of the current cell is some computation
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17:27:23 <ais523> yes
17:27:24 <ehird> ais523: ah, agreed
17:28:00 <ehird> so the formal semantics of [ are "loop started, jump past end of ] after checking if = 0"
17:28:09 <ehird> and the formal semantics of ] are "jump back to ["
17:28:11 <ehird> but that'd actually make it
17:28:17 <ehird> , [ . , ] [ . , ] [ . , ]
17:28:24 <ehird> which, while pretty, is costly
17:28:25 <ais523> no, the formal semantics of ] are "jump to the right of the matching ] if != 0"
17:28:31 <ehird> err
17:28:32 <ehird> fail?
17:28:40 <ehird> read that sentence
17:28:42 <ais523> "the matching ["
17:29:06 <ehird> that duplication of logic irritates me
17:29:19 <ehird> only one instruction should be operated each loop tick, and it should be the only instruction that can check for cell value
17:29:42 <ais523> that duplication of logic is a common way to do BF looping, though
17:29:52 <ais523> and it's the neatest way IMO, being symmetrical
17:29:59 <ehird> i know, but that's not pure
17:30:02 <ais523> otherwise you need 0-cycle jumps and other stupidities like that
17:30:17 <ais523> and what do you mean "not pure", testing both ends seems pretty pure to me
17:30:19 <ehird> each command should be completely separate from the rest
17:30:22 <ais523> your version has [ and ] doing different things!
17:30:27 <ehird> i.e., no commands should duplicate the purpose of another command
17:30:38 <ehird> thus, only one command should do "check the value of the current cell"
17:30:54 <ais523> [ and ] are opposites; [ jumps on zero, ] jumps on nonzero
17:31:07 <ehird> right, but they both make a jump depending on the current cell
17:31:09 <ais523> just like only one command should do "change the value of the current cell", or "change the location of the pointer"?
17:31:12 <ehird> and that duplication makes the instruction set less pure
17:31:19 <ais523> BF has always had /two/ commands doing anything in particular, which are opposites
17:31:23 <ehird> ais523: we're assuming bignum here, because it's also pure
17:31:30 <ais523> ehird: what? in BF Joust? are you mad?
17:31:34 <ehird> no
17:31:40 <ehird> I'm coming up with cycle semantics for brainfuck that are pure
17:31:45 <ehird> and then applying them to joust
17:32:00 <ais523> your definition of pure is ridiculous, you may as well eliminate - and < if you're going that way
17:32:16 <ehird> with bignums, + and - cannot replace each other. and with a non-wrapping tape, < and > cannot either.
17:32:35 <ais523> and [ and ] cannot replace each other either!
17:32:40 <ais523> you clearly need both of them for a loop
17:32:52 <ais523> they are both, at heart, conditional jump instructions
17:33:09 <ehird> still, they both check the value of the current cell and jump based on it
17:33:13 <ais523> and there's no reason to break symmetry by implementing [ as "jump to ] and test there" or ] as "jump to [ and test there"
17:33:14 <ehird> I think only one of them should do that
17:33:34 <ais523> what I'm saying is, an unconditional jump is a lot less pure than a conditional jump, if there's only one thing you can unconditionally jump to and that's a conditional jump
17:34:09 <ehird> i don't want an unconditional jump
17:34:18 <ehird> as I said, I want only one command to be executed each cycle
17:34:26 <ehird> Currently, I'm tempted to have ] never actually execute
17:34:38 <ehird> ,[.,] with no input = , [
17:34:41 <ais523> yes, I agree
17:34:50 <ehird> ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , [ . , [ . ,
17:34:55 <ais523> and the jump-at-each-end semantic is clearly the neatest, most symmetrical and purest way to do that
17:35:07 <ais523> if you like, think of [ as for jumping forwards and ] as for jumping backwards
17:35:17 <ais523> just like you need both < and >, you need to be able to jump both forwards and backwards
17:35:28 <ehird> hmm, I'm tempted to have ] execute in one case:
17:35:33 <ehird> when the loop ends, [ jumps onto the ]
17:35:35 <ehird> ,[.,] with no input = , [ ]
17:35:37 <ehird> ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , [ . , [ . , ]
17:36:05 <ais523> ugh, that's wasting a cycle for no good reason
17:36:09 <ais523> ,[.,] with no input = , [
17:36:18 <ais523> ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , ] . , ] . , ]
17:36:41 <ais523> by your definition, ,[.,] with input "abc" would be , [ . , [ , [ . , [ ]
17:36:43 <ais523> which is silly
17:36:48 <ehird> no
17:36:58 <ais523> "when the loop ends, [ jumps onto the ]"
17:36:59 <ehird> itd be , [ . , [ . , [ . , ]
17:37:02 <ehird> no
17:37:04 <ehird> when the loop ENDS
17:37:07 <ehird> as in, no more iterations
17:37:13 <ais523> so, in other words, ] tests its argument, but only if it's 0
17:37:18 <ehird> no
17:37:19 <ais523> if its argument isn't 0, the [ runs instead
17:37:19 <ehird> ] is a nop
17:37:28 <ais523> well, what's testing the argument, then?
17:37:32 <ais523> does the test materialise out of thin air?
17:38:23 <ehird> sort of.
17:38:41 <ais523> I don't get how you can claim that all this is purer than my method
17:38:53 <ehird> [17:36:09] <ais523> ,[.,] with no input = , [
17:38:56 <ehird> this is wrong, IMO
17:39:01 <ais523> ehird: how can it be?
17:39:04 <ehird> it's too cheap for a not-running loop
17:39:05 <ais523> the . and , inside the loop never run
17:39:08 <ais523> ehird: no, it isn't
17:39:10 <ehird> I think a not running loop should cost two cycles
17:39:14 <ais523> it's exactly as cheap as it ought to be
17:39:21 <ais523> and I bet you in Goethe's rules, a nonrunning loop costs one cycle
17:39:30 <ais523> a not running loop is an if, it should only cost one cycle
17:39:36 <ais523> a; if(b) {c;} d;
17:39:42 <ais523> say b is false, should that if really cost two cycles
17:40:43 <ehird> yes
17:40:53 <ehird> loop starting & loop ending should both be one cycle, after all, that's symmetric isn't it?
17:41:02 <ais523> loop skipping should also be one cycle
17:41:13 <ais523> ehird: how many cycles should loop iterating be?
17:41:17 <ais523> one, clearly
17:41:21 <ehird> one
17:41:23 <ais523> so loop skipping should also be 1
17:41:28 <ais523> execute 0 times = 1 cycle
17:41:32 <ais523> execute 1 time = 2 cycles
17:41:38 <ais523> execute 2 times = 3 cycles
17:41:39 <ais523> and so on
17:41:48 <ais523> you want the first two entries to both be 2 cycles, for some reason
17:41:51 <ehird> hmm, fine.
18:01:07 <ehird> hmm...
18:01:14 <ehird> It looks like I'm on the road to writing my own mail client,
18:02:41 <ehird> :x
18:06:46 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:07:07 <ehird> hey Judofyr, what mail client do you use.
18:07:23 <Judofyr> ehird: gmail for personal, Mail.app for work
18:07:33 <ehird> bah.
18:07:35 <Judofyr> yeah
18:07:36 <Judofyr> I know
18:08:23 <ehird> I love gmail except it'd be nicer as a native app. so right now I'm clutching at straws to avoid learning Interface Builder & Cocoa & IMAP & POP to make my own damn client
18:08:27 <ehird> oh, & SMTP
18:09:59 <Judofyr> I wish gmail had proper tree-view (for mailing-lists)
18:10:12 <Judofyr> other than that, I'm pretty happy with it
18:10:21 <ehird> Judofyr: I've thought about that, and concluded that:
18:10:46 <ehird> the same conversation view, but with a thread-tree view to the side that auto-updates as you scroll (to select the current one), and lets you jump to somewhere in the thread,w
18:10:48 <ehird> would be useful
18:11:01 <ehird> (per-thread, ofc, since most of the time I doubt it'd be useful)
18:11:10 <Judofyr> ehird: Obj-C?
18:11:26 <ehird> Judofyr: I'd avoid using obj-c by using a binding.
18:11:27 <ehird> :P
18:11:35 <Judofyr> RubyCocoa?
18:11:40 <ehird> something like that.
18:11:53 <Judofyr> MacRuby?
18:11:57 <ehird> something like that.
18:12:00 <ehird> :p
18:12:02 <Judofyr> :P
18:12:03 <Judofyr> secret?
18:12:06 <ehird> nope.
18:12:16 <ehird> I just am desperately trying to avoid coding my own damn client.
18:12:32 <ehird> because I hate fussing around with gui code
18:12:35 <Judofyr> seen sop?
18:12:38 <ehird> also, because IMAP sucks
18:12:42 <Judofyr> http://sop.rubyforge.org
18:12:44 <ehird> sup? yeah, but it's console based.
18:15:03 <ehird> in conclusion, software sucks
18:15:42 <Judofyr> I'm still surprised no-one has built The Perfect Mail Client
18:15:59 <ehird> I'm pretty sure people have trie
18:15:59 <ehird> d
18:16:20 <ehird> Judofyr: the problem is that IMAP really, really sucks
18:16:25 <ehird> you can only use one folder at a time!
18:16:36 <ehird> also, imap is more or less completely incompatible with doing labels
18:16:50 <Judofyr> true
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18:17:40 <ehird> gmail has it easy because they don't need to support things like imap
18:17:45 <ehird> well, they do support i t
18:17:48 <ehird> but they can just hack it in
18:17:55 <ehird> and natively use their own thing
18:21:01 * Judofyr wants Gmail API
18:21:48 <ehird> but yeah, ew making GUIs :(
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18:22:27 <Judofyr> Shoooes!
18:22:55 <ehird> yeah um shoes kind of doesn't really have the rich GUI components useful for making a fully-featured, native email client.
18:22:58 <ehird> you know. like toolbars
18:23:24 <Judofyr> true. shoes is much more about plain fun
18:23:34 <ehird> unfortunately email is very unfun
18:25:00 <ehird> a better path to making a client is to make a nice API for imap and suchlike then build a client on top, but unfortunately the client will almost certainly require a huge restructuring of the api that you did not anticipate...
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18:33:41 <ehird> oh wow, bloopsaphone is awesome
18:33:50 <ehird> http://github.com/why/bloopsaphone/tree
18:34:07 <Judofyr> heh, I just thought about it :P
18:36:25 <ehird> I am totally using this for a haccordian-like thing
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18:47:45 <oerjan> <ehird> data constructor
18:47:48 <oerjan> hm true
18:47:59 <ehird> but ++ at the start means it's a non-starter
18:48:07 <oerjan> my mind is going, i can feel it
18:48:23 <oerjan> ehird: i interpreted it as whether it could be a legal fragment
18:48:27 <ehird> ah
18:48:54 <oerjan> the ++ still needs to be redefined though
18:49:08 <ehird> yes
18:49:41 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:53:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:53:10 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:53:50 <oerjan> lost connection to isp, hope that was just a one-time thing
18:54:36 <oerjan> was about to say: or you could redefine just .
18:54:55 <ehird> nah
18:54:59 <ehird> ++ S is inherently a type error
18:55:00 <ehird> since S is not [a]
18:55:06 <ehird> oh, it's ++(S.S)
18:55:09 <ehird> ok then, yeah
18:56:35 <ehird> bloopsaphone is what I've wanted for aaages
18:58:35 <ais523> what does it do?
18:58:45 <oerjan> <ais523> I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time
18:59:12 <oerjan> no, because no one but the geeks will be able to understand the fuzz, since it's not a BIG ROUND number
18:59:15 <ehird> ais523: http://github.com/why/bloopsaphone/blob/b6fc0c789e81574099169fbf498adfaed9130b8b/README
18:59:25 <oerjan> so no one will actually pay to fix it in time
18:59:32 <oerjan> *fuss
19:00:11 <ais523> I bet they will
19:00:19 <ais523> PHBs will know slightly more about computers back then
19:00:33 * oerjan is only playing a cynic for humorous purposes
19:00:34 <ais523> they'll hear about a doomsday on which computers will all stop working
19:00:43 <ais523> and beg their engineers to make sure they aren't caught up in it
19:01:20 <ehird> <ais523> back then <- overflow reference? :D
19:01:30 <ais523> in my brain
19:01:44 <ais523> my brain seems to place just-before-2038 as before today
19:01:50 <ais523> maybe because it's happened once already, in 2000
19:02:01 <ais523> although that one was relatively small
19:02:05 <ehird> i bet your brain uses 16-bit time_t
19:02:07 <ais523> incidentally, some 2038 bugs have already happened
19:02:07 <ehird> or something
19:02:12 <oerjan> hm except - islamic terrorists (or whatever replaces them) will sow misinformation to make the PHBs think it's all a hoax, and they're too stupid to understand who is right...
19:02:16 <ais523> due to someone who used 1 billion seconds to represent forever
19:02:20 <ehird> heh
19:03:06 <oerjan> by that time it might be the angry maldivian diaspora
19:03:11 <ais523> as for that bloopsaphone, I was really disappointed when Microsoft deprecated the API to do that
19:03:18 <ais523> it existed in win 3.1, still worked in 95
19:03:26 <ais523> but had stopped working by XP, which is annoying
19:03:42 <ais523> they wanted people to use a weird MIDI+WAV+video scripting language instead
19:03:53 <ais523> wait, that was working in 98
19:03:58 <ais523> but by XP, it was broken again
19:04:08 <ehird> wait, microsoft had an api to make chiptunes?
19:04:09 <ehird> :D
19:04:10 <ais523> it still "worked", but with a 10-second-or-so delay whenever you loaded a MIDI file
19:04:19 <ais523> ehird: only sort of tune there was back in win 3.1
19:04:24 <ais523> unless you had spiffy new gamind speakers
19:04:25 <ehird> ais523: oh, you mean pc speaker?
19:04:28 <ais523> yes
19:04:31 <ehird> nooo, bloopsaphone is much more
19:04:42 <ehird> it does polyphonic, synthesized sound, based on squarewaves and such
19:04:46 <ehird> so it sounds like the NES etc
19:04:53 <ais523> well, the BBC Micro did that
19:04:58 <ehird> (although you can make it do monophonic bleeps too, ofc)
19:05:02 <ais523> it even had an ENVELOPE command
19:05:58 <oerjan> <ehird> After all, if we can understand intelligence smarter than us, that's a paradox. We'd have to be that smart.
19:06:19 <oerjan> i think that paradox only applies to understanding so finely that you can simulate it in your head
19:06:26 <ehird> hmm
19:06:28 <ehird> possibly
19:07:32 <oerjan> also, it could be a large team of humans working on it, who would of course have access to all kinds of computer resources to improve their own reach
19:07:52 <ehird> true
19:12:35 <oerjan> <ais523> I want to write an IRC client in INTERCAL
19:12:46 <ais523> I have all sorts of ideas for interesting features
19:12:55 <ais523> such as a /swapnick command which swaps nicks with someone without anyone knowing
19:13:01 <ais523> (working by piping messages through each other's clients)
19:13:07 <oerjan> i was going to say "that way lies madness", but then i realized madess has been far surpassed before you begin :D
19:13:13 <oerjan> *n
19:13:22 <ehird> ais523: why?
19:13:31 <ais523> ehird: do you really have to ask why?
19:13:37 <ehird> yes. :D
19:13:44 <ais523> but the actual reason is Claudio mentioned the possibility in an email, and I've been wondering about it ever since
19:14:00 <ehird> i don't get what the usecase is
19:18:03 <oerjan> to spread madness, of course
19:21:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:22:35 * kerlo transfers a credibility point from ehird to oerjan
19:22:49 <ehird> what
19:23:16 <oerjan> BWAHAHAHA soon i shall have enough credibility to be voted in as World Dictator
19:23:21 -!- Slereah2 has joined.
19:23:28 <oerjan> then i will resign, too much work
19:23:30 <kerlo> Yep.
19:24:04 <oerjan> too bad i was not the first. maybe i should cleanse all evidence of Dogbert's existence from the world before resigning.
19:25:29 <oerjan> i will also advise all world scientists to work _hard_ on creating a mind sweeping device before my inauguration, otherwise the cleansing will be far messier.
19:25:47 <ais523> haha
19:25:51 <kerlo> What do you mean by "mind sweeping device"?
19:25:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:26:07 <oerjan> kerlo: you will forget you ever asked that
19:26:33 <Sgeo> What did kerlo ask?
19:26:47 <oerjan> nothing of importance.
19:26:51 <ais523> Sgeo: check logs
19:26:55 <oerjan> no.
19:27:06 <oerjan> i would advise against that.
19:27:26 <Sgeo> You really need a log erasing device
19:27:44 <oerjan> trivial.
19:29:18 <oerjan> also, once the Tunes operating system develops sentience (as it obviously needs to iirc), it will be only too happy to cleanse the logs for me.
19:30:37 <ais523> oerjan: IIRC or IMO?
19:31:07 <oerjan> iirc for remembering what Tunes is supposed to be
19:32:20 <oerjan> imo is unnecessary as my opinion is always right, iirc
19:33:32 <oerjan> as a World Dictator i will be an infinitely wise and fair judge who just happens not to quite recall correctly what the defendants did
19:34:21 <oerjan> maybe the scientists would be well advised to work on a memory preservation device, as well
19:35:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:35:24 * oerjan realizes he just committed a first degree split infinitive above
19:35:24 <ehird> oerjan: tunes isn't aiming for sentience
19:35:40 <oerjan> no, but their goals require it, iirc
19:35:46 <ehird> really?
19:36:06 * oerjan swats ehird -----###
19:36:16 <oerjan> DON'T DOUBT ME, FILISTINE
19:36:35 * ehird turns into rabbit
19:36:43 * ehird poops on oerjan's face
19:36:44 <oerjan> hm i think the swatter shall be in my world empire flag
19:36:45 * ehird hops away
19:37:32 <Sgeo> Is Tunes even active?
19:37:39 <Sgeo> Is anyone actually working on it?
19:37:42 <ehird> Nope.
19:37:47 <ehird> Nobody ever DID.
19:37:48 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I'm going to check on OSMP
19:37:50 <ehird> They never got past planning.
19:38:03 <ehird> Sgeo: "As of 2008, the project was no longer active. Most developers shifted focus to development of open source software compatible with Second Life.
19:38:03 <ehird> "?
19:38:14 <Sgeo> http://metaverse.sourceforge.net/
19:38:19 <ehird> yeah
19:38:35 <Sgeo> OSMP isn't compatible with SL, iirc
19:38:36 <ehird> whoa!
19:38:38 <ehird> from tunes.org:
19:38:39 <ehird> "David Madore's explanation of TUNES"
19:38:44 <ehird> david madore = unlambda inventor!
19:39:08 * kerlo allies with oerjan
19:39:16 <Sgeo> The last post on the OSMP forums was in 2007..
19:39:51 <ehird> uh oh
19:39:53 <ehird> [[I am François-René Rideau, a one-man think tank from France, and the author of several libertarian websites [1]. I am very honored to be speaking before this audience today, especially so in a session dedicated to the memory of Ayn Rand. ]]
19:39:56 <ehird> -- Founder of TUNES
19:40:09 <Sgeo> Linky?
19:40:11 <ehird> i don't wanna know what an objectivist OS would look like
19:40:18 <ehird> processes fighting processes for resources! :D
19:40:23 <ehird> selling their resources to other processors!
19:40:31 <ehird> processonomics
19:40:33 <oerjan> i guess that explains why it never got off the ground :D
19:40:35 <ehird> Sgeo: http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/sofia2005.html
19:41:36 <ehird> suffers from other delusions also: http://tunes.org/~do/
19:43:03 <ehird> "I've accumulated ideas for a short libertarian comic strip, and I am looking for an artist to illustrate them. If I can't find one, I may buy myself a tablet and try to draw my own stick-figure comic strip..."
19:43:04 <ehird> please god no.
19:43:22 <kerlo> Everyone's looking for an artist.
19:43:31 <ehird> especially libertarians
19:43:43 <kerlo> I'm an artist! You'll have to supply the Play-Doh, though; I don't have any on me.
19:44:24 <kerlo> Also, I hope photographs of Play-Doh will be sufficient.
19:45:49 <kerlo> Also, keep in mind that I have no actual sculpting experience.
19:47:01 <oerjan> given this is a libertarian, he should expect to pay for an artist, no?
19:50:59 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit).
19:51:04 <oerjan> <oklofok> purrrrity
19:51:19 <oerjan> would that be a lolcat version of haskell?
19:52:13 <oklofok> there's crap on my floor. i mean actual crap.
19:52:20 <oklofok> does that answer your question?
19:52:48 <oerjan> well that doesn't sound pure
19:53:02 <kerlo> Crap from what species?
19:53:10 <oerjan> or are you implying cats and purity are incompatible?
19:53:32 <oerjan> i sincerely hope not human
19:53:35 <kerlo> And of the species within the crap, approximately what proportion are eukaryotic?
19:54:35 <oklofok> all your questions are nice and valid.
19:54:38 <oerjan> more importantly, what proportion are multicellular
19:54:50 <oklofok> ^ that one is too
19:55:26 <oerjan> as it would be important to know if the source has intestinal worms
19:55:34 <oklofok> i mean i take her out, walk with her for like a km, come home, and she craps on my floor
19:58:56 * oerjan is more a dog than a cat person, really. not that he would trust himself with being responsible for either.
20:01:20 <oklofok> i'm more of a cat person, but really i'm more of a rodent person, mostly a bat/lizard person i guess
20:01:40 <oklofok> i mean staring contests with lizards
20:01:41 <oklofok> are
20:01:42 <oklofok> awe
20:01:42 <oklofok> some
20:02:00 <oklofok> i mean squirrels, cats and hares i can win easily
20:02:16 <oklofok> but lizards can do it for hours on end
20:02:32 <oerjan> cats? there goes my stereotype.
20:02:49 <oklofok> huh?
20:03:02 <ehird> Fuck I think I broke my speakers
20:03:24 <oerjan> i thought cats were invincible starers, but admittedly i probably got it from comics
20:03:46 <oklofok> clearly you have no idea how competitive i am
20:04:01 <ehird> halp
20:04:28 <oerjan> do like me, keep your sound off nearly at all times
20:04:29 <Sgeo> Why is http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=39 so broken?
20:04:36 <ehird> yes put
20:04:37 <ehird> but
20:04:41 <ehird> i broke em
20:05:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:06:23 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's actually an inside joke relating to their other "comic"
20:07:00 <oerjan> um, how come you don't know? or have i been trolled?
20:07:19 <ais523> isn't it theoretically impossible to troll oerjan?
20:07:26 <Sgeo> ....I even went to view image, and failed to realize that that wasn't a 404?
20:07:27 <ais523> as in, if someone would troll oerjan, it platonically doesn't happen?
20:07:37 * Sgeo slaps self
20:07:49 -!- ais523 has changed nick to self.
20:07:51 <self> ow
20:07:53 -!- self has changed nick to ais523.
20:08:35 <Sgeo> So Comments on a Postcard is a fake non-existent image?
20:08:36 <Sgeo> WHY
20:08:36 <oerjan> ehird: well it's too late to close the barn once the cows have run away. or something.
20:08:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's a _series_ of them.
20:09:09 <ais523> why would the cows run away? they have a nice warm barn, in this weather?
20:09:11 <oerjan> the actual content is the annotation
20:09:26 <oerjan> ais523: well this may apply more during summer
20:11:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: also, it's a collaborative "comic", see the forum
20:12:10 <oerjan> so don't expect too much consistency
20:21:04 <Sgeo> "According to an analysis of your IP address, you access this site from a computer located in the Langerhans Islets. In accordance with Langerhans Islets pornography laws, individual pictures will not be displayed."
20:21:22 <oerjan> sucks to be you
20:21:23 <ais523> that's a ridiculous error message
20:21:30 <Sgeo> http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php
20:21:37 <oerjan> yes. yes it is.
20:21:53 <ais523> especially as I don't know of any Langerhans Islets that have been allocated any IP addresses at all
20:22:01 <ehird> <ais523> what is a joke
20:22:13 <oerjan> ais523: it's only a matter of time, really.
20:22:26 <oerjan> although it probably should be v6
20:23:07 <ais523> ehird: it's you who missed the joke
20:23:19 <ehird> certainly
20:23:44 <oerjan> ehird never lets a joke get in the way of being cynical
20:23:54 <oklofok> :D
20:24:13 <Sgeo> Who is this L person?
20:24:26 <oerjan> where?
20:24:28 <Sgeo> They do Dudley's Dungeon stuff, Uncyclopedia, and now Comments on a Postcard?
20:24:32 <Sgeo> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1889&sid=fd393ac5c6eba0191cead4a4c37d8351
20:24:55 <ehird> Because, um, L is a totally uncommon nick.
20:24:58 <ehird> Who would pick that??
20:24:58 <ais523> it could be more than one person, each calling themselves L
20:25:09 <ais523> the whole [[WP:SLG]] stuff got quite controversial before it was deleted
20:25:10 <Sgeo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Zork_Implementor_L
20:25:23 <ais523> it was basically a group of people who all renamed themselves to have single-letter usernames
20:25:25 <ehird> that's not even freaking L, Sgeo
20:25:26 <oerjan> "total posts: 16", not a regular
20:25:28 <ehird> that's Zork Implementor L.
20:25:55 <ehird> ais523: I bet there's some hyper-christian registered as †
20:26:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/† Well, yes.
20:26:19 <ais523> single-character non-ASCII names have been banned for a while
20:26:25 <ais523> but clearly someone registered as that beforehand
20:27:48 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1003289.html
20:28:36 <oerjan> correction: not an _old_ regular, seems quite active
20:30:09 * ehird iterates a binary pangram
20:30:13 <ehird> XXX0YYY1
20:30:23 <ehird> where X = number of 0s and Y = number of 1s, ofc
20:31:45 <oerjan> does it converge?
20:32:21 <oerjan> hm wait of course it must end in a cycle
20:32:32 <oerjan> since too long ones will be shortened
20:32:42 <ehird> well, it could be XXXX0YYYY1.
20:33:07 <oerjan> i assumed the number of X's and Y's were dependent on the numbers
20:33:12 <ehird> no
20:33:13 <ehird> constant
20:33:38 <ehird> oerjan: the length of XXX0YYY1 = 8, and 3 binary digits can add up to 7
20:33:40 <ehird> so it's enough
20:33:58 <oerjan> oh well, you get a cycle anyhow, it just makes the proof easier
20:34:10 <oerjan> (read trivial)
20:34:12 <ehird> :<
20:34:17 <ehird> then I'll try trinary
20:34:18 <ehird> :P
20:34:28 <ais523> it might be a cycle of length 1
20:34:30 <oerjan> duh it's the case for any base
20:34:35 <ehird> oh.
20:34:44 <ehird> well, pangrams work do they not?
20:34:45 <oerjan> indeed, i did not mean to imply anything about length
20:35:48 <oerjan> well there are pangrams, but i don't know whether there are some bases which don't happen to have any
20:35:59 <ais523> 01101011
20:36:26 <oerjan> indeed
20:36:54 <oerjan> it's not like checking ~ 36 possibilities is a big deal
20:37:26 <ais523> oerjan: 8 possibilities
20:37:36 <ais523> *9
20:37:43 <ais523> which can easily be brought down to 3 with a bit of common sense
20:37:44 <oerjan> hm?
20:37:58 <ais523> oerjan: because the number of 0s and the number of 1s add up to 8
20:38:03 <oerjan> well i brought it down to 36 first
20:38:08 <oerjan> hm true
20:40:00 <oerjan> but are there any with variable length length
20:41:19 <ehird> it cycles:
20:41:19 <ehird> 10000111
20:41:19 <ehird> 10001001
20:41:19 <ehird> 10101001
20:41:19 <ehird> 10000111
20:41:19 <ehird> 10001001
20:41:21 <ehird> 10101001
20:41:23 <ehird> :P
20:42:32 <oklofok> :O
20:42:38 <oklofok> wow that's pretty
20:42:53 <oklofok> i love it
20:43:12 * ehird makes it length 2 out of intererest
20:43:39 <ehird> length-2 cycles between
20:43:39 <ehird> 0101011
20:43:39 <ehird> 0111011
20:43:48 <ehird> wait
20:43:54 <ehird> that's one length too many.
20:44:12 <oerjan> and 0 in the wrong place
20:45:32 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
20:46:29 <ehird> woohoo
20:46:30 <ehird> I got it
20:46:30 <ehird> 0101001011
20:46:34 <ehird> length 4
20:46:39 <ehird> XXXX0YYYY1
20:47:25 <ehird> XXYY: 1010
20:48:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:52:07 <ehird> hi ais523
20:52:09 <ehird> 0101001011
20:52:13 <ehird> pangram of form XXXX0YYYY1
20:52:41 <ais523> a nice symmetrical one, as well
20:52:46 <ais523> how's the BF Joust implementation going?
20:52:47 <ehird> yep
20:52:56 <ehird> ais523: got sidetracked with this :-)
20:53:04 <ehird> (btw, in english, that pangram states "5 zeros, 5 ones")
20:53:19 <ais523> I know
20:54:42 <ehird> others may not.
20:59:31 <oerjan> i note none of the examples so far have lengths starting with 1, so won't work with variable length
20:59:58 <oerjan> *length length
21:00:52 <ehird> 2 decimal loops:
21:00:52 <ehird> 100071032023014015016027018019
21:00:52 <ehird> 110081032023014015016017028019
21:00:56 <ehird> (length 2)
21:01:21 <ais523> did you find those by iteration?
21:01:25 <ehird> yah
21:01:26 <ais523> also, some spaces might make it more readable
21:01:31 <ehird> they loop is the point
21:01:37 <ehird> i.e., they both loop to each other
21:01:40 * ehird tries length 3 decimal
21:01:43 <ais523> 11 0 08 1 03 2 02 3 01 4 01 5 01 6 01 7 02 8 01 9
21:01:57 <ais523> ehird: try messing with the starting point?
21:03:02 <oerjan> 110 1001, of course :)
21:04:14 <oerjan> i don't think there can be one that is both fixed and variable length
21:07:01 <ehird> brb ->
21:07:24 <oerjan> indeed the requirement to start with 1 makes the numbers too large for length > 3, and length 2 and 3 don't work either
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22:01:00 -!- Slereah has joined.
22:01:05 <ehird> hi Ortez
22:01:08 <ehird> haven't seen you here before
22:01:33 <Ortez> You have seen Zetro befor? ;)
22:02:00 <ais523> I don't remember a Zetro here either
22:02:04 <ehird> hmm, name rings a bell...
22:02:06 <ehird> #corewars maybe?
22:02:10 <oerjan> ```aqhew
22:02:25 <ehird> oerjan: wut
22:02:31 <ais523> oerjan: you're missing a backquote and several function definitions there
22:02:35 <Ortez> yes i have been on #corewars
22:02:39 <MigoMipo> Ortez backwards = Zetro! Duh.
22:02:50 <ehird> Ortez: ok :)
22:02:51 <ehird> hi!
22:02:53 <oerjan> ais523: ey ey
22:02:53 <ais523> even if that's Lazy Bird not Unlambda, you're still missing a backquote
22:03:20 <ehird> I think oerjan has lost his mind (note: different from going insane.)
22:04:13 <oerjan> ehird: ys!qqnj
22:04:40 <ehird> Slereah: by the way, here's how you can do input in lazy bird:
22:05:16 <ehird> hmm
22:05:20 <ehird> how does it do it currently?
22:05:20 <ehird> with _
22:05:30 <Slereah> Yeah
22:05:35 <ehird> yeah I mean
22:05:36 <Slereah> Converts input into church numerals
22:05:36 <ehird> how does _ work
22:05:37 <ehird> :P
22:05:43 <ehird> Slereah: like, how
22:05:45 <ehird> do you do `_f?
22:05:48 <ehird> what is f passed?
22:05:59 <Slereah> What's f?
22:06:02 <ais523> oerjan: fungot
22:06:03 <fungot> ais523: in intercal, programs other than variable ranges and expressions; in particular, this time setting the pins that are sending. however, the operands themselves are pattern templates specifying what precedences actually are. this explanation assumes that the number of 0 causes the current line; if you are not always right
22:06:07 <oerjan> ): aw spue+sjapun auo ou
22:06:07 <ehird> slereah: a plcaeholder
22:06:28 <ais523> fungot: what if I'm not always right?
22:06:29 <fungot> ais523: 7.9 try again
22:06:35 <ais523> fair enough
22:06:35 <Slereah> Well, `_f would wait for input, and be replaced by like `33f
22:06:46 <Slereah> And then `f`f`f...`f
22:06:47 <ehird> Slereah: ah. and why doesn't this work?
22:07:14 <Slereah> Well, it works, but the problem is the order.
22:07:15 <ais523> laziness, obviously
22:07:18 <Slereah> Yeah.
22:07:21 <ais523> it's the Lazy Bird equivalent of unsafePerformIO
22:07:25 <ehird> Slereah: ok, add this function:
22:07:27 <ais523> as in, it doesn't do what you expect
22:07:48 <ehird> `!xy -- when this is evaluated: forces the full evaluation of x, then evaluates to whatever y evaluates to
22:07:49 <ehird> tada
22:07:54 <Slereah> I was thinking of using >, such that `b`>a converts to `ba and then a is evaluated
22:07:59 <Slereah> Or something
22:09:10 <Slereah> But well, much like this language, I'm a bit lazy right now.
22:09:20 <ehird> :D
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22:20:46 <Ortez> f
22:20:50 <ehird> f
22:22:38 <ais523> p
22:23:28 <oklofok> o
22:24:15 <ais523> q
22:24:43 <oklofok> ...o
22:25:13 <ehird> a
22:25:51 <MizardX> m!
22:25:57 <oklofok> O
22:26:15 -!- oklofok has changed nick to Oklopol.
22:26:40 <oerjan> capital error
22:28:21 <ehird> ## fucking imap fucking sucks. what the FUCK kind of committee of dunces
22:28:21 <ehird> ## designed this shit.
22:30:28 <MizardX> sum(imap(operator.mul,u,v))
22:30:31 -!- GregorR_ has joined.
22:30:35 <ehird> heh
22:31:03 <GregorR_> My computer restarted for no reason. No power outage, just restarted.
22:31:23 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:31:27 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR.
22:31:31 <Sgeo> What language is that?
22:31:45 <MizardX> python
22:31:59 <Sgeo> ah, didn't recognize the operator.mul thingy
22:32:15 <MizardX> import operator
22:32:38 <Oklopol> GregorR: just fyi, my vista never does that.
22:33:17 <GregorR> Oklopol: Yes, I strongly suspect this is a software problem, which is why I mentioned the software at all.
22:33:44 <Oklopol> GregorR: stop doing that
22:33:56 <ehird> what are the chars used for back/forward one word in terminals again?
22:33:59 <ehird> i forgoooottttt
22:34:53 <ais523> also, amazingly: it seems that there are some people in blognomic's IRC channels who have never seen various xkcd comics before
22:35:06 <ehird> how, uh, amazing?
22:38:51 <Sgeo> Saturday classes meet 14 times during the semester and meet for 54 minutes of instruction for each hour of instruction.
22:39:26 <ehird> i see
22:39:35 <Sgeo> ais523, examples?
22:39:51 <ais523> the guaranteed-to-be-random dice-roll random number
22:39:54 <ais523> someone linked it
22:40:03 <ais523> and there were comments implying that the people who it was linked to had never seen it
22:40:38 <Sgeo> Example comment?
22:41:00 <ehird> Sgeo: are you conducting a freaking scientific investigation on this matter? :P
22:41:13 <ais523> <Hix> That reminds me of http://xkcd.com/221/ <Devenger> awesome.
22:41:14 * Sgeo is curious
22:41:25 <Sgeo> What was the situation reminding Hix of that?
22:41:32 <ehird> ;_;
22:41:46 <ais523> me talking about how ehird was trying to get control over random numbers in B Nomic
22:41:57 <ehird> err what
22:42:08 <ehird> ?
22:42:28 <ais523> by replacing the dice server with your own email address, surely you remember that?
22:42:41 <ehird> comex proposed that, ais523
22:42:55 <ehird> can you drop the mental association you obviously have of "b nomic & bad => elliott did it"? kthx
22:43:12 <ais523> I'm sure you were complicit
22:43:18 <Sgeo> lol
22:43:31 <ehird> ais523: no, I laughed at it and it never got on a ballot.
22:44:11 <kerlo> I think this channel is an appropriate place to discuss the most expensive ways to die.
22:44:40 <kerlo> Execution by firing squad, with guns loaded with Faberge eggs.
22:44:54 <ais523> ...
22:44:58 <ehird> irritating kerlo so that he talks to you so much you die
22:45:05 <ehird> ais523: it's kerlo. just go along with it.
22:45:07 <Oklopol> kerlo: this is not the place for that
22:45:09 <kerlo> Oh.
22:45:13 <ehird> Oklopol: whyever not
22:45:17 <Oklopol> i'll just tell you it's trivial to spend any amount of money on it.
22:45:30 <Oklopol> case closed
22:45:49 <kerlo> That does sound expensive, as I'm not all that irritable.
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22:46:07 <Oklopol> also this O thing isn't working for me
22:46:09 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
22:46:16 <oklopol> i'm not a very upper case person i guess :|
22:46:42 <oklopol> so ais523 where are you ircing from, is the university open at this hour?
22:48:39 <oerjan> kerlo: wait, aren't faberge eggs a bit larger than bullets?
22:48:44 <ehird> noop()
22:48:44 <ehird> Sends a NOOP command to the server. It does nothing.
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22:52:22 <oerjan> also, i would suggest burning at the stake on a bonfire made of thousand dollar bills
22:53:20 <kerlo> oerjan: the guns have to be made out of resilin.
22:54:50 <oerjan> also, i think the LHC black hole would turn out rather expensive, all damage included
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22:55:19 <kerlo> Indeed.
22:55:51 <oerjan> it seems this has to end up with destroying the universe somehow. try a false vacuum collapse.
22:56:14 <kerlo> Exploding due to an antimatter overdose.
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22:59:20 <kerlo> Heavy metal poisoning due to gold.
23:01:47 <Sgeo> false vacuum collapse sounds fun
23:02:40 <ehird> GregorR: what's that life-ruining video again
23:02:44 <kerlo> Buying the United States Army and ordering them to shoot you.
23:03:02 <ais523> how much would it cost to buy the US army, I wonder?
23:03:15 <ehird> ais523: I don't imagine it is for sale.
23:03:29 <oklopol> taking so many coins they collapse into a black hole
23:03:33 <oerjan> well first you'd have to buy congress, which is easy
23:03:36 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-k9C3v9Ng0&feature=channel_page
23:03:39 <GregorR> ehird: ^
23:03:44 <oerjan> *badum*
23:03:54 <pikhq> Name any price, it's probably a low guess.
23:04:04 <oklopol> writing such an amount of zeroes on a check the amount of paper collapses into a black hole
23:04:06 <ais523> ehird: exactly, that's why it would have to be expensive
23:04:24 <oklopol> ^ easy to generalize the exponential growth in cost there
23:04:25 <pikhq> oklopol: High guess, though they're probably not going to take the offer anyways.
23:05:06 <ehird> GregorR: :'(
23:05:22 <GregorR> ehird: Enjoy your miserable depression!
23:05:40 <ehird> GregorR: I gave the link to someone else, so it's OK.
23:05:46 <ehird> They can be sad too.
23:09:10 <oklopol> GregorR: nice story
23:09:31 <oklopol> cery classy for its genre
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23:14:35 <ais523> ehird: you might like this webpage: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/controls.htm#CONTROLS53
23:14:46 <ais523> it's all about interface design stupidities
23:14:56 <ehird> ooooh
23:15:45 <ehird> [[The folks at Ryka, a manufacturer of women's shoes, wanted to be certain that no potential customers could be excluded. Thus, rather than providing option (or radio) buttons to indicate one's gender, they decided to use checkboxes, to allow the potential customer to indicate Male, Female, or, well, both, and for that matter, none. We found this especially interesting given the company motto, "Exclusively for women by women." Inclusiveness must be "in".]]
23:16:07 <ehird> um, ever heard of transgender etc?
23:16:10 <ehird> admittedly that's crap UI for that
23:16:19 <ais523> no, that's wrong
23:16:29 <ais523> there are at least 4 transgender genders
23:16:38 <ais523> and that box doesn't let you specify which you are
23:16:48 <ais523> male/female/other is considered acceptable, though
23:16:54 <ehird> they should just not ask
23:16:57 <ais523> if you're even caring about gender, why would you do that?
23:17:03 <ehird> the company doesn't need to know my gender, so stop trying to dat amine
23:17:04 <ehird> *datamine
23:17:52 <ehird> "Cancel button before the OK button" <- heh, that's _good_ OS X design practice
23:18:07 <ais523> the main thing is to not contradict the conventions on your platform
23:18:12 <ehird> yes
23:18:25 <oklopol> they have an ordering?
23:18:32 <oklopol> i've never noticed
23:18:34 <ais523> I would complain about a Gnome application which put cancel to the right, just as much as I'd complain about a KDE application which put cancel to the left
23:18:52 <ais523> Gnome is (optional alternate OK), Cancel, normal OK
23:19:50 <ais523> KDE has normal OK and cancel the other way round
23:23:21 <oklopol> *very
23:23:40 <oklopol> almost left a typo in there :|
23:24:10 <oklopol> (btw for future reference, if someone notices a typo i've left uncorrected, please inform me.)
23:24:34 <ehird> what
23:25:03 <ais523> </ais523></ehird>
23:25:49 <ehird> "OzWin-specific commands, ^M^J in the text."
23:25:50 <ehird> fail
23:30:15 <oklopol> what's wrong with the three sorting fields thing
23:31:23 <oklopol> "there is no way to indicate that you want to sort on any less" <<< to indicate you do *not* want to specify how to sort if two values are equal? how useful!
23:31:46 <ais523> oklopol: what if you want to keep it stable?
23:31:57 <oklopol> ais523: true, true.
23:32:37 <oklopol> but i don't see that as worse than just choosing one. of course, i guess some people might see is at kinda stupid.
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