00:05:21 <Sgeo> No one submitted any entries for XYZ?
00:16:31 <ehird> 16:41:00 <ehird> ={:'a'z..?{'a-13+26%}if}<!
00:16:31 <ehird> 16:41:04 <ehird> ninjacode, without much thought
00:16:34 <ehird> whoa ninjacode rot13 :D
00:18:24 <ehird> 0=~1+.' C~ is possibly the best code I've ever written.
00:19:23 <Sgeo> What's a good language to learn for jobs
00:20:52 <Sgeo> What about C++?
00:21:05 <ehird> maybe in the games industry.
00:21:32 <ehird> Sgeo: btw, a mainstream programming job is about the most soul-destroying thing you could do.
00:21:37 <ehird> I would reconsider.
00:21:53 <Sgeo> Or are you assuming that from TDWTF?
00:21:54 <ehird> Sgeo: y'know thedailywtf?
00:22:08 <ehird> I've had many conversations over the years :P
00:22:21 <ehird> {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C. <- ninjacode quine, awesome
00:22:43 * Sgeo can't find any information on ninjacode
00:23:09 <ehird> summary, from then:
00:23:09 <ehird> 1. small code size, for golfing 2. easy to refactor to be smaller 3. mostly written in itself, as an stdlib: a very big stdlib, with tons and tons of stuff 4. the core is just a very simple kernel written in C, which compiles the very small core it provides to native code (!!!) and then the rest is done by the stdlib
00:23:23 <ehird> it was quite elegantering.
00:23:42 <ehird> (elegant, v. to make more elegant)
00:24:53 <Sgeo> Link to interp and docs?
00:25:13 <ehird> infer whatever from that
00:25:46 <oerjan> i infer that you are infernal
00:25:56 * Sgeo wants to learn ninjacode@!
00:25:56 <ehird> Oerjan can I rent your swatter
00:26:13 <oerjan> yes; that will be 3 cuils
00:27:06 <oerjan> doubled if you swat me
00:27:27 <ehird> Sgeo: there's no compiler, nor docs.
00:27:28 <oerjan> also i infer there are no docs
00:27:35 <ehird> however I am now tempted to revive the project.
00:27:49 <ehird> Sgeo: I can explain 0=~1+.' C~ to you, if you want
00:28:01 <ehird> it linecounts a file
00:28:10 <ehird> a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c
00:28:18 <ehird> so, 0 pushes 0 to the stack
00:28:45 <ehird> = means 'while there is input: read line, push to stack, run rest of program, print Top of Stack (popping it), repeat'
00:28:57 <ehird> ~ means swap, so we get the 0 on the top of the stack, not the input
00:29:04 <ehird> ' <- note the space
00:29:09 <ehird> 'c is the ascii num of char c
00:29:13 <ehird> C prints a character from its ascii code
00:29:19 <ehird> and ~ swaps again, making the input line the ToS
00:29:24 <ehird> and the line count is still there
00:29:27 <ehird> and the new line is pushed
00:30:42 -!- Corun has joined.
00:32:32 <ehird> what don't you get :-D
00:33:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:36:14 <Sgeo> Nothing, I'm just not that focused on it. Would "2+" be increment of two?
00:38:31 -!- olsner has joined.
00:39:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:45:31 <olsner> IS IT STACK-BASED!!!!?
00:50:59 <oerjan> but, is it stack-based?
00:51:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:58:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:01:20 <olsner> DOES THAT MEAN IT IS STACK BASED!?
01:01:36 <ehird> a rot13 drome: greeny <-> terral
01:08:01 <oerjan> I don't think it is stack based. The evidence is shaky to say the least.
01:11:07 <ehird> next ubuntu: "karmic koala"
01:11:09 <ehird> I am not fucking kidding
01:12:26 <Sgeo> If "fucking" was part of the name, I'd understand the issue here
01:13:25 <ehird> Karmic Koala Engaged in Intercourse
01:13:45 <olsner> btw, does norwegian have the word "kuk"?
01:17:08 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit").
01:19:27 <olsner> NotAnAlliterationException
01:20:12 <oerjan> there's a norwegian band named "Brutal Kuk", i hear
01:20:36 <olsner> how impolite and provocative of them
01:21:27 <olsner> aha, coala is a synonym for koala, according to dictionary.reference.com
01:22:05 <olsner> Cock Coala works then, although I guess the sequence of release names requires a 'k'-alliteration
01:22:18 <oerjan> they also have a giant phallus as a concert prop
01:23:38 <olsner> phallic phallus should be the fifth ubuntu release from now
01:24:12 <oerjan> nah, that will be Perfect Panda
01:25:33 <oerjan> erm in case you didn't notice it was ehird who inserted the rude words
01:26:16 <olsner> also, do we really care about such things in #esoteric?
01:26:51 <oerjan> depends whether our pedantics or our gay sex drive is strongest at the moment
01:27:44 <Sgeo> ehird, what would you suggest instead of mainstream programming?
01:28:07 <ehird> Sgeo: Make a startup, suck paul graham's dick, fail to be bought out, die of starvation.
01:28:10 <oerjan> well, then we care, duh
01:28:50 <olsner> so, gay sex => not caring about rude words?
01:29:09 <olsner> and non-gay sex => caring?
01:29:44 <Slereah_> You can't have gay sex without naughty words, olsner
01:29:55 <olsner> Slereah_: seldom would I ever
01:30:25 <olsner> also, naughty words exist without sex
01:30:52 <olsner> there's some kind of logical fallacy (phallosy?) involved
01:32:25 <oerjan> olsner: what the hell are you talking about you satanic infidel
01:32:38 -!- ehird has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
01:32:53 <olsner> oerjan: have some fermented milk you norwegian person!
01:33:04 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
01:33:04 <oerjan> ehird: you missed the point, which was to have naughty words _without_ sex
01:33:20 <ehird> naughty sex without words
01:33:33 <oerjan> that's easy, but not in a topic
01:33:58 <oerjan> well would be easy if i could get some
01:34:09 <olsner> also, emily deschanel <3
01:34:30 <ehird> #esoteric is so fucking weird
01:34:31 <Sgeo> Wow, #wikipedia is deluged
01:34:34 <ehird> and also weird at fucking
01:35:04 <olsner> if there was ever fucking in #esoteric, it would probably be quite generic
01:35:13 <oerjan> deluged, or just deluded? and deranged.
01:35:31 <Sgeo> oerjan, Wikipedia is down, and the error message points there
01:35:42 <olsner> oerjan: deluged, deluded and deranged!
01:35:55 <Sgeo> "wikipedia is BROKEN for most users"
01:36:21 <olsner> oerjan: haven't had fil in a few weeks though... besides, kefir is essentially the same as fil
01:36:44 <oerjan> kefir mjølk, kefir ikkje kaffi
01:37:04 <olsner> kefir är fan inte mjölk, det är ett som är säkert!
01:37:46 <olsner> oerjan: you wouldn't happen to have a youtube clip of an angry norwegian?
01:38:04 <olsner> there was some contention over beer whether or not norwegians had the ability to be angry
01:38:11 <oerjan> olsner: that's actually a pun on "kefir" sounding like it _could_ be nynorsk for "hvorfor" / "why"
01:38:26 <oerjan> some comedians did that in a sketch or something
01:38:48 <olsner> oh, obtruse (obstuse? obscure?)
01:38:55 <oerjan> (the actual nynorsk is "kvifor")
01:39:07 <olsner> also, I see the fun of it
01:40:35 <oerjan> olsner: i'm actually not at youtube much
01:40:44 <pikhq> My external brain enhancement. :/
01:41:19 <olsner> oerjan: the best thing about norwegians though is that their english sounds like the keepers of the continuum transfunctioner
01:41:57 <olsner> and it's friggin hilarious!
01:42:00 <oerjan> what is a keeper of the continuum transfunctioner?
01:42:18 <olsner> oh, from the movie dude where's my car
01:43:07 <oerjan> olsner: here's an oldie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHT_Lu0OoAI
01:44:32 <oerjan> hm there was this washmashine repair thing...
01:44:49 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMcp94Y-9U
01:44:56 <oerjan> oh that's just a sound file
01:45:05 <Sgeo> The deluge in #wikipedia has stopped
01:45:32 <olsner> good, so we can continue it in here now then?
01:46:00 <oerjan> but but we have no bots to spam with
01:46:45 <Sgeo> It's back, I think
01:46:58 <olsner> you mean, we have no humans to provide contents with?
01:47:16 <ehird> http://lispmachine.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/the-key/ <-- Biggest retard ever.
01:48:16 <Sgeo> You're not ... dangit no compose key
01:48:54 <olsner> oklopol: orly!? just guessing damnit :P
01:49:15 <olsner> otoh, 'hyvvä' I have actually learnt at some time
01:49:42 <olsner> yxi kaxi kolme hyvvä ei saa peittää parasta ennen
01:50:15 <olsner> ... getting your finnish corrected by the norwegian
01:50:40 <oerjan> hm i don't know that one
01:51:08 <oklopol> olsner: hyvvä ||| oklopol: olsner: yes very gdodd. <<< this is, in fact, a pun
01:52:16 <oklopol> nope, it's "hyvä", this is one of the 5 exceptional words where there are no double-letters, what ever the term is for those
01:53:16 <Sgeo> Most words have redundant letters?
01:53:17 <oklopol> i had to check my dictionary, tbh.
01:53:26 <olsner> but it's a double-v and a short-y with the accent on the last 'ä', right?
01:53:44 <Sgeo> What does hyva mean? And pretend that the a has those two dots
01:54:26 <olsner> Sgeo: you're finnish, you should know
01:54:40 <oklopol> olsner: you can't have accent on the last "ä", all accents are on the first syllable; which btw is something all languages should do.
01:54:59 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
01:55:11 <Sgeo> olsner, what do you mean, I'm finnish?
01:55:13 <olsner> accent might not be what I'm actually referring to
01:55:33 <olsner> Sgeo: you're not!!?? ok, maybe you aren't
01:55:44 <Sgeo> Is it the nick?
01:55:46 <olsner> yeah, something along those lines
01:55:53 <Sgeo> Did the nick make you think I'm finnish?
01:55:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: yeah, sgeo is finnish for dumbass
01:56:15 * Sgeo steals oerjan's swatter
01:56:26 * Sgeo swats oerjan -----###
01:56:48 * oerjan takes his swatter back
01:56:48 * olsner gets a few ascii tables and builds himself a swatter
01:57:19 * Sgeo knows 0 finnish
01:57:20 <oerjan> oklopol: you think i didn't know that?
01:57:42 <oklopol> i'm just playing my part in the convo.
01:58:03 <olsner> oh, and this is the part where you tell us we suck?
01:58:22 <olsner> makes sense, actually, but it's kind of harsh
01:58:48 <oklopol> i don't think "god you suck at finnish" is an insult
01:59:00 <oerjan> suukkaani enormousilainen
01:59:13 <oklopol> it's like a woman telling me i menstruate like a dried up piece of wood
01:59:55 <oklopol> was that your own translation?
02:00:02 <oerjan> _now_ you can tell me i suck at finnish :D
02:00:02 <olsner> oerjan: hey, I could understand that! :P
02:00:03 <oklopol> i wish i could translate it back
02:00:55 <olsner> for the love of <deity>, translate it back anyway
02:01:08 <oklopol> "enormousilainen" is a perfectly contructed name for a citizen of enormous (or enormousi)
02:01:42 <oklopol> "suukkaani" would probably be the inessive of "suukka", which is perfect finnish, but means absolutely nothing
02:02:18 <oklopol> you probably want "suukkaan", which is the first person of the verb "suukata", which again means nothing
02:02:19 <olsner> "I'm oerjan, the inessive of suukka of enormous!"
02:02:37 <oklopol> "sukata" is sometimes used for "suck"
02:02:58 <olsner> and then, sukani would mean what?
02:03:02 <oklopol> but, i have a feeling this is more interesting to me than it is to you ppl, so i think i'm gonna get me some pizza
02:03:13 <oklopol> the place closed 2 minutes ago :D
02:03:36 <olsner> I guess you're stuck with the delusions of the rest of us
02:03:36 <oerjan> hm i know -ni can be a 1st person suffix but probably nouns only?
02:04:05 <oklopol> olsner: it would be the possessive of the noun "suka", which is something you brush animals with
02:05:18 <oklopol> the only way "ni" could end a verb would be if it were in the potential, but it's rare even then, and the potential isn't really used.
02:05:31 <oklopol> (are they called "cases" or what was the term again?)
02:05:53 <olsner> it is in swedish, "kasus"
02:06:04 <oerjan> erm cases are on nouns and adjectives usually
02:06:25 <oerjan> verbs have tenses, aspects and moods
02:06:29 <oklopol> and i wouldn't suggest learning the potential anyway, since about 5% of the finnish population is able to form it
02:07:01 <oerjan> rubbish there are only 5 finns so you mean 20%
02:07:03 <olsner> tenses, aspects and moods... and here I've only learned the difference betweem tenses
02:08:12 <oerjan> well tenses might include the others too, i'm a bit unclear on that
02:08:20 <oklopol> Slereah_: congrats on the topic, i assumed it was ehird's.
02:08:29 <olsner> nah, tenses and moods and the others are pretty distinct
02:08:54 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense
02:09:04 <oerjan> also lists voice and person
02:10:19 <olsner> papapa-oom-mow-mow, papa-oom-mow-mow
02:10:45 <oklopol> had to think about the number for a while
02:11:22 <oklopol> only a month till it changes, then probably another month of confusion when i'm learning the new one.
02:11:43 <oklopol> oerjan: oh dang i was looking for chicks.
02:11:54 <oklopol> also the age difference could be in the other direction
02:11:59 <oklopol> except may a teensy bit less.
02:12:27 <oerjan> any chicks here since sukoshi?
02:12:28 <oklopol> i mean an irc chat with a newborn might not be all that fruitful.
02:12:48 <oklopol> hotidlerchick, although i heard from a reliable ehird he was actually a me
02:12:53 <oerjan> WAWAWA DA DA BABABA DA
02:13:16 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
02:13:46 <oerjan> oklopol: actually a me? that sounds serious
02:14:34 * oerjan shakes away the confusion and assumes oklopol was joking
02:14:57 <oklopol> i was only joking in how i said what i said
02:15:15 <oklopol> i heard from a reliable source hotidlerchick was actually oklopol.
02:15:48 <oerjan> i could believe that, except you are implying ehird is a reliable source
02:16:02 <oklopol> well okay that may have been confusing.
02:16:18 <oklopol> he said something about the ip's being the same
02:16:24 <oerjan> maybe he deceived you. it's so easy to do.
02:16:33 <oklopol> and that oklopol was probably doing the "i have a girl in here with me" gag
02:17:01 <oklopol> if i know oklopol at all, which i probably don't, that does sound like something he would do
02:17:07 <oklopol> except you'd think he'd do it a bit better.
02:17:24 <oerjan> oh i remember that, i assumed her name was Elisa Laajakaista
02:17:25 <oklopol> like, actually continue doing it until people believed him.
02:18:06 <oklopol> "broadband" would make a nice nickname for a girl
02:18:29 <oklopol> btw the next "shop" closes in 40 minutes.
02:18:38 <oklopol> so i can get my satisfaction
02:18:59 <oerjan> yeah you have to work through the snow upwards in both directions
02:19:15 <oerjan> also work, of course, with those 5 feet
02:19:27 <oerjan> (measurement, not anatomy)
02:19:44 <oklopol> i actually just fetched my bike from my parent's house
02:25:49 <olsner> oerjan is twice the age of oklopol? nice
02:25:59 <olsner> barnarov, som vi säger på svenska
02:26:23 <oerjan> oklopol isn't a child any longer
02:27:07 <oerjan> while i am eternally childish
02:28:11 <olsner> well, more like statutory rape I think
02:28:24 <olsner> i.e. it's an act not a person
02:33:48 -!- shapr has joined.
02:34:49 <shapr> pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export?
02:35:01 <shapr> oerjan: Vad gör du?
02:35:12 <shapr> I was worried for a second.
02:35:18 <shapr> Actually, that looked like japanese.
02:35:26 <pikhq> It was romanised Japanese.
02:35:47 <oklopol> "mitta" is "measure" or "length" in finnish.
02:35:58 <oklopol> was that what you were going for?
02:36:04 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
02:36:04 <shapr> Actually, I was going for "what?" in Finnish.
02:36:12 <pikhq> And it's past tense of "to see" in Japanese.
02:36:21 <oklopol> same error as olsner did earlier
02:36:24 <pikhq> Erm. Casual past tense, rather.
02:36:27 <shapr> and it's the Boston way to talk about things that keep your hands warm.
02:36:39 <oklopol> well. it's that error plus another error
02:36:45 <shapr> oklopol: Well, you might know Finnish, but I know... um.. how to UNICYCLE!
02:36:58 <shapr> really? what sort?
02:37:15 <oklopol> err dunno, ages since i used it
02:37:17 <shapr> ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle?
02:37:50 <oerjan> "I think we can all learn something from his last words: 'Wow, a unicycle! I haven't seen those since I was a little kid!'"
02:37:54 <shapr> oklopol: http://picasaweb.google.com/shae.erisson/OakMountainUnicycling#
02:37:54 <oklopol> (i just bought it to learn the skill, i'm not actually that interested in the actual biking...)
02:38:28 <oklopol> yeah i recognize the perverted seat
02:39:09 <oerjan> oklopol is suffering from pizza withdrawal
02:39:26 <shapr> I just had a monster fried steak sub, so I am sated.
02:42:24 <oerjan> mountain unicycle, now that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen
02:42:34 <shapr> It's a lot of fun.
02:42:49 <shapr> And I bet you're a lot younger now than I was when I learned to unicycle.
02:44:23 <shapr> You are in fact, older than I am now!
02:44:45 <oerjan> as i thought, especially after seeing your picture
02:45:35 <oerjan> i'm one of the oldest regulars here though
02:45:52 <shapr> er, I'm not a regular
02:46:09 <oerjan> but you've been here before :)
02:46:10 <shapr> Though I'd love to reimplement many of wouter van oortmerssen's languages.
02:46:15 <shapr> Since he won't release them :-(
02:46:39 <shapr> Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work!
02:46:43 <shapr> Maybe you guys can tell me?
02:47:19 <shapr> I guess Haskell no longer counts as an esoteric language?
02:47:30 <oerjan> i'm afraid this is a silent period on this channel
02:47:50 <shapr> Haskell used to be esoteric!
02:48:06 <shapr> about seven years ago
02:48:08 <oerjan> we have a bit more stringent definition, usually
02:48:29 <shapr> What's the stringent definition?
02:48:58 <oerjan> it cannot be intended for practical use
02:49:20 <shapr> Hm, Haskell wasn't?
02:49:20 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
02:49:54 <shapr> No, Haskell was designed to be purely a research language.. it was hoped to be an open source version of Miranda.
02:50:06 <oerjan> that's not what i remember reading.
02:50:14 * shapr looks for the hopl paper
02:51:41 <pikhq> Also, it being a research language does not make it esoteric.
02:51:49 <pikhq> It makes it *interesting*.
02:52:13 <pikhq> Of course, a research language could be esoteric without too much effort.
02:53:10 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
02:53:25 <oerjan> that's as close to official as we get here
02:55:18 * oerjan wonders if we should make a less insulting topic
02:58:02 -!- oerjan has set topic: The intergalactic hub for esoteric programming language madness and denuement | Logs: http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki.
03:02:12 <oklopol> shapr: on closer look that looks nothing like mine :D
03:02:17 <oklopol> i was looking at the thumbnails
03:03:23 <oklopol> shapr: Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work! <<< dl it and run it?
03:04:03 <oklopol> unless you mean you want to learn to program in it, then i suggest you read wouter's paper on it
03:04:04 <shapr> oklopol: Not that easy
03:04:09 <shapr> oklopol: I tried that too.
03:04:52 <shapr> oklopol: Yeah, 26 inch wheel, 3.7 inches across
03:05:14 <oklopol> so how old were you when you learned to unicycle
03:05:34 <shapr> I started capoeira when I was 37
03:05:57 <shapr> I emailed Wouter asking for more help using Aardappel, he said to read his thesis.
03:06:37 <oklopol> usually at 30, people work, and don't really live anymore.
03:07:37 <oklopol> so what's the problem with just reading it?
03:08:03 <shapr> Either I'm clueless, or there just isn't any instruction on how to actually write code with Aardappel in his thesis.
03:08:13 <shapr> The thesis talks about the implementation, lots of cool stuff there.
03:08:19 <oklopol> i was pretty new to all stuff when i was reading it, so i got enough out of it before even getting to the details of aardappel.
03:08:22 <shapr> But how the heck do I drag the little boxes around to make stuff work?
03:08:30 <oklopol> i was like omg tree rewriting my brain explodes this is so cool.
03:08:34 <shapr> Wait, you can actually wite code with Aardappel?
03:08:43 <oklopol> i've written some little "snippets"
03:09:12 <shapr> This weekend I may bug you to show me how :-)
03:09:19 <oklopol> err, i probably didn't emphasize the "little" enough there
03:09:39 <oklopol> i don't think i've written anything that would even qualify as a useful function.
03:09:43 <oerjan> oklopol: too late, you're the official expert now
03:11:02 <shapr> oklopol: How old were you when you learned to unicycle?
03:11:24 <oklopol> shapr: maybe 12 or something
03:11:36 <oklopol> i felt like learning the basic circus stuff
03:11:37 <shapr> How old are you now?
03:11:43 <shapr> Oh, can you do backflips and stuff?
03:11:56 <oklopol> no, nothing you can't learn gradually.
03:12:30 <oklopol> i learn slowly, but i don't get tired with stuff.
03:12:55 <oklopol> i forget words when i learn new stuff.
03:12:58 <shapr> you don't lose interest
03:13:28 <shapr> Where are you, Espoo?
03:14:31 <shapr> It's cold here... not quite Rovaniemi cold, but cold.
03:34:34 <pikhq> Boston... Nice city.
03:34:41 <pikhq> Not too fond of the weather, though.
03:35:10 <pikhq> Far too hot & humid in the summer.
03:37:08 <shapr> pikhq: I'm more of an Alabama kind of guy.
03:37:25 <pikhq> I much prefer Colorado, myself.
03:39:43 * oklopol 's never been to the country
03:40:46 <pikhq> You should try being, say, 100 miles from most everything some day.
03:41:24 <oklopol> i'm already about 5 meters from everything
03:41:38 <oklopol> at least a specific instance of anything of interest
03:46:26 * oerjan recalls a friend telling about an australian bragging how he lived 3 hours drive away from the closest city
03:47:32 <oerjan> however, this friend at the time lived in Svalbard, so he responded that he too lived 3 hours away from the closest city - by jet plane
03:48:12 <oklopol> it's more about where the closest shop is
03:48:21 <oklopol> and where the nearest internet is
03:48:26 <oklopol> you don't need anything else
03:51:32 <oklopol> why don't i drink coffee all day long
03:52:16 <oklopol> i want like a coffee *machine*, like
03:52:21 <oklopol> a thingie that makes me coffee
04:08:23 <shapr> I lived in Tornio for two years.
04:09:41 <pikhq> I want an espresso machine, myself.
04:10:18 <pikhq> oerjan: 3 hours away by jet plane? That is rather impressive, I must admit.
04:10:53 <oerjan> i may or may not remember the number right
04:11:20 <pikhq> And looking at the Wikipedia page, I understand how.
04:11:49 <pikhq> Archipelagio halfway between Norway and the North Pole? Damn.
04:12:18 <shapr> Tornio isn't nearly as remote as Svalbard.
04:12:31 <shapr> But nowadays, I live about a mile from MIT and a mile from Harvard.
04:12:40 <shapr> And half a mile from Tufts
04:12:49 <shapr> and ten minutes drive away from quite a few universities.
04:13:22 <pikhq> Hmm. You'd be right about where I was at last summer...
04:13:46 * pikhq worked at Tufts as an assistant UNIX sys-admin
04:14:45 <oklopol> mit and harvard are that close?
04:14:55 <shapr> Did you know Dave the sysadmin/IT guy with the blondish ponytail? Just had his first kid?
04:15:00 <oklopol> or do you just live in a very curious location
04:15:12 <shapr> oklopol: You can almost throw rocks from MIT to Harvard.
04:15:35 <pikhq> I had *met* Dave...
04:15:45 <pikhq> Mostly, I knew Shawn.
04:15:51 <oklopol> do you happen to know how good the harvard cs stuff is?
04:16:02 <pikhq> (I was staying with him, so...)
04:16:05 <shapr> oklopol: They have some decent type theorists.
04:16:12 <shapr> Dave is my next door neighbor.
04:16:39 <oklopol> i mean i thought i'd go abroad, but then i learned they study automata here, so now i have no idea what to do.
04:17:17 <pikhq> oklopol: Yeah, MIT and Harvard are very, very close.
04:17:27 <pikhq> Was it one or two stops between them on the Red Line?
04:18:09 <shapr> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Massachusetts+Institute+of+Tech+(MIT)&daddr=1+Mass+Ave,+Cambridge,+MA+02138+(Harvard+University)&hl=en&geocode=FYNchgIdwS3D-yEGyTcCu2HJiQ%3BCVAVqufD1WnRFa5ShgId_DXD-yFiyQC9d1EFug&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=42.365298,-71.101678&sspn=0.031835,0.066004&ie=UTF8&z=18
04:18:33 <oklopol> the red line? seems it's a finnish opera
04:18:45 <pikhq> One of the MBTA's subway lines.
04:19:04 <shapr> Ok, so you'd need a baseball player to actually hit Harvard from MIT...
04:19:29 <oklopol> hmm. "institute of technology", i've never really even checked what the name comes from.
04:19:53 <pikhq> Damned good, I've heard.
04:19:54 <shapr> It doesn't impress me, but I like type theory, purely functional lanuages, etc
04:20:30 <pikhq> Not impressed by one of the few US universities to teach CS using Scheme?
04:20:32 <oklopol> i wish there were good objective resources on universities.
04:20:42 <shapr> pikhq: Oh don't get me wrong, I love SICP.
04:20:56 <shapr> It's just that computer science means a lot more to me now than it did when I read SICP.
04:21:28 <oerjan> oklopol: would you settle for functional ones?
04:21:31 <shapr> Nowadays I look at Pierce's Types and Programming Languages as the ABCs of computer science.
04:21:44 <oklopol> oerjan: damn should've seen that coming :D
04:22:19 <pikhq> I'd prefer a Homespringative resource on universities, though not for reasons I'm proud of.
04:22:23 <oklopol> yeah it's true there's no reason to teach programming using an actual programming language
04:22:56 <oklopol> well, in fact our advanced programming courses do not use programming languages
04:23:14 <shapr> Of course, I'd like to take classes in FORTH and type theory at the same time :-)
04:24:16 <oerjan> well there is Chris Diggins's Cat
04:24:26 <oklopol> but we're less of a computation university and more of an application university.
04:28:30 <oklopol> should probably start considering the sleeping.
04:28:52 * oerjan is considering, but haven't decided yet
04:37:08 <shapr> Man, I went to a gathering of Swedes recently...
04:37:31 <oklopol> how come factorials look so nice
04:38:04 <oklopol> they are such pretty numbers
04:38:41 <oklopol> just looking in base 10, but i'm pretty sure they're pretty in other bases too.
04:39:07 <oerjan> um, because they have many factors?
04:40:36 <oklopol> well that's pretty much what i'm asking, how come numbers look pretty when they're very composite
04:40:51 <oklopol> in fact that's kinda obvious.
04:41:50 <oklopol> wasn't at first, but i wasn't really aiming for a mathematical question, more like you know aesthetic.
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10:05:36 <oklopol> okay that was ...surreal, i lie down for like 20 minutes, thinking what time it is, then, i decide to get up, and halfway through my quick rise into a sitting position the alarm clock starts ringing
10:05:51 <ais523> oklopol: human instincts are easily trained
10:06:08 <ais523> if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring
10:06:36 <oklopol> yesterday i set the clock at 7:20 and 19:30, now it was 12:00
10:09:00 <ais523> heh, well when I was waking up on alarm clock every day a few years ago, I managed to wake up before the clock no matter when I set it
10:09:07 <ais523> it's like my body had some sort of internal clock
10:09:11 <oklopol> btw those aren't even exact times, i randomize the last digit pretty uniformly
10:09:43 <oklopol> you don't you an alarm clock anymore?
10:10:01 <ais523> my parents normally wake me up
10:10:12 <ais523> because they wake up at much the same time as I want to wake up
10:10:37 <oklopol> parents are an awesome alarm clock
10:10:47 <oklopol> girlfriends not so much :<
10:11:01 <ais523> oklopol: do you have a girlfriend?
10:16:27 <ais523> nothing much, I've been asleep
10:16:31 <ais523> I slept 16 hours yesterday
10:16:35 <ais523> well, nothing much from me
10:17:07 <oklopol> sleeping is not all that fun.
10:17:49 <oklopol> but waking up and then going to sleep again is one of the greatest feelings there are
10:18:59 <ais523> well, if you want something new: http://clc.intercal.org.uk/
10:19:06 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL has a spiffy new website
10:19:11 <oklopol> well yes sure, i guess you could generalize it to that
10:19:18 <oklopol> i'm just always tired when i wake up.
10:19:22 <ais523> I didn't have anything to do with that, but I'm probably going to profit from it anyway
10:22:34 <oklopol> ais523: ugly page, should invert the colors
10:23:06 <ais523> if I were to make a website about INTERCAL, I'd do something surprising
10:23:09 <psygnisfive> you know, i get those from glitches my computer has
10:23:14 <ais523> like flourescent pink with pictures of flowers, or something
10:23:34 <oklopol> or maybe an incredibly flashy flash animationy page
10:23:59 <ais523> nah, it should work in every browser that became popular ever
10:24:05 <ais523> including Netscape 1, and Mosaic
10:24:39 <oklopol> you could have ascii animations for ones without a gui
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10:33:55 <oklopol> so have you ever decided to learn to like a drink that tastes like a rotten space turtle?
10:35:08 <oklopol> i mean there's this drink i hate, but it looks so delicious cuz it's all green
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11:04:15 <ais523> hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again
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11:22:25 <ais523> that's the version for October 2009
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13:57:10 <ehird> <ais523> if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring
13:57:11 <ehird> used to happen for me
13:57:13 <ehird> doesn't any more :(
13:57:15 <ehird> <ais523> it's like my body had some sort of internal clock
13:57:17 <ehird> well, uh, it does :P
13:57:31 <ehird> 02:11:11 <oklopol> i have a lot of things
13:57:31 <ehird> 02:11:57 <oklopol> ...i mean yes
13:57:50 <ehird> the day when a straight answer is gottenered out of oklopol is a day of amazing.
13:59:28 <ehird> <ais523> hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again
13:59:32 <ehird> i said that yesterday, slowpoke.
14:00:23 <ehird> <shapr> pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export?
14:00:30 <ehird> they fall under cryptography regulations
14:00:39 -!- Hiato has joined.
14:00:40 <ehird> (due to their language, so obscure that only 5 people can understand it)
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14:01:16 <ehird> <shapr> ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle?
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14:26:31 <ehird> ais523: I dug up your tic tac toe BMP yesterday, and the logs then said you and rodgerthegreat found and/or gates and the like?
14:26:39 <ehird> I've tried to make a bmp and gate but not much success
14:27:24 <ehird> wans't aiming for repeatbe
14:27:47 <ais523> you basically have to rely on multiple clicks
14:27:53 <ais523> colouring black/blue/black to set the things off
14:28:13 <ehird> I was trying to get just input clicks
14:28:19 <ehird> ais523: I thought of a more useful fill operation that could help:
14:28:31 <ehird> if you fill black on gray, and there's a line going gray, black, gray
14:28:34 <ehird> it crosses over the black
14:28:42 <ehird> i.e., it fills both the colour you're filling and the colour you're filling to
14:28:51 <ais523> that would be more useful, although not exactly a floodfill
14:29:49 <FireFly> Ask M$ to implement it, we wanna code in Paint
14:30:10 * ais523 considers downloading the source to KolourPaint and tweaking it to do that
14:30:24 <ais523> incidentally, I updated to KDE 4.2 earlier this morning, haven't tried it out yet
14:30:27 <ais523> actually, I'm going to do that now
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14:30:51 <ehird> shapr: ooh, aardappel
14:30:54 <ehird> I'ma download it to help you
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14:33:53 <ais523> well, it isn't so broken I can't log into it, that's a start
14:33:58 <ehird> how many lightyears behind OS X is KDE now? 3?</flamebait>
14:36:29 <ais523> I haven't really used OSX, so I can't easily compare
14:36:39 <ais523> so far, I've decided I prefer gksudo to kdesudo
14:36:58 <ais523> and Kate seems to have disappeared, let me see what happened to it (I suspect it's a Kubuntu packaging screwup)
14:37:05 <ehird> yowsers, editing Aardappel is hard
14:37:12 <ehird> languages are text based for a reason...
14:37:44 <ehird> the colours are just extra keys :P
14:37:46 <ais523> but can't be edited with a normal text editor
14:37:52 <ehird> that isn't what I said
14:39:01 <ais523> well, what non-text-based languages have I used?
14:39:20 <ais523> Logicator which isn't all that bad, but which is slow and it's a pain to stop wires crossing
14:39:27 <ais523> Simulink which is awful, in more ways than one
14:39:57 <ais523> and that circuit editor thing I can't remember the name of which was actually quite good, but was converted into text in the backend I think
14:40:18 <ehird> <oklopol> nice cs in mit?
14:40:22 <ehird> from what i've heard it's considered the best
14:40:36 <ehird> from the stuff that comes/came out of there I'm inclined to agree
14:41:13 <ais523> as for the look of the thing, I like the window decorations, the widgets for menus and dialog boxes are a bit ugly though
14:43:14 <ais523> let me try to get a good one for you
14:43:21 <ais523> that also shows the biggest problem for me atm, I wonder if it's fixable
14:43:50 <ehird> ais523: by the way, Squeak was forked recently to try and remove the educational-child-yaay-fluff and make it not hideous, and integrate better with the host OS
14:44:04 <ehird> which I think solves quite a lot of your complaints about squeak
14:44:08 <ehird> screeny: http://pharo-project.org/pictures/41/p1boiza388rvo4mb1h7xxhm8g5ajji/pharo-screenshot-720.png
14:44:17 <ais523> sorry about the delay, I'm trying to find where the screenshot app/key is on here, I'm not used to it
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14:49:44 <ais523> ehird: http://filebin.ca/roupsd/kde4.2.png
14:50:06 <ais523> the K Menu is blatantly stolen from Windows Vista, or vice versa, by the way
14:50:11 <ais523> and tab-complete works cmd-style not sh-style
14:50:21 <ehird> well, it's prettier than kde3, that's for sure.
14:50:24 <oerjan> <ais523> if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring
14:50:31 <ais523> where pressing tab always returns a result, repeating tab returns subsequent results
14:50:33 <ehird> that blue window shadow/glow is a bit iffy
14:50:39 <oerjan> or rather, pre-emptively to turn it off before it rings
14:50:41 <ehird> same with those wolverine-style stripes on the title bar
14:50:47 <ehird> also, not much distinction between highlighted and not windows?
14:51:04 <ehird> those maximize/resize buttons look kind of crap
14:51:12 <ais523> the stripes disappear and the close/restore/maximise buttons are greyed out for an inactive window
14:51:15 <ehird> small and it's not clear what they do at a glance
14:51:15 <ais523> otherwise, not much difference
14:51:24 <ehird> but yeah, wtf is up with that BLUE SHADOW?
14:51:29 <ais523> but I rarely have trouble working out which window's active anyway
14:52:09 <oklopol> oerjan: i often wake up late, and see my alarm clock has been turned off, but can't really tell whether i turned it off before or after the ring because i have no memory of that.
14:52:17 <ais523> also, what blue shadow?
14:52:53 <ehird> ais523: task manager settings
14:52:55 <ehird> look at the side and top
14:53:03 <ehird> the shadow is glowing blue.
14:53:20 <ais523> ah yes, it only seems to happen on overlapping windows
14:53:32 <oerjan> oklopol: that's the reason i started putting the alarm clock too far from the bed to reach
14:53:35 <ais523> I presume the idea's so you can tell one window apart from the next, but blue is probably the wrong colour
14:53:43 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/wikileaks_donor_leak/ hahaha
14:53:54 <ais523> also, GTK apps seem uglier on KDE4 than QT apps on Gnome
14:54:00 <oklopol> oerjan: i usually use two or three clocks, all randomly placed around the room
14:54:02 <ehird> ais523: install gtk-qt-theme-engine
14:54:10 <ais523> because the default to the default Gnome style which is ugly
14:54:12 <ehird> it makes gtk apps use your kde theme, not perfectly but decently
14:54:21 <ais523> ehird: only when on kde, or always?
14:54:29 <oklopol> *e was because the background color was used for shadows
14:54:29 <ais523> I'd like the opposite too, to make kde apps look like gnome when I'm on gnome
14:54:37 <ehird> there's no generic way to do it
14:54:50 <ehird> but install it, it's in apt-get
14:54:54 <oklopol> ehird: link me an aardappel if you have it open
14:54:56 <ehird> you configure it via the kde settings panel <-- non intuitive
14:55:08 <ehird> oklopol: http://strlen.com/aardappel/index.html
14:55:13 <ehird> http://strlen.com/files/lang/aardappel/aarded.zip
14:55:17 <ehird> clicky the bat file
14:55:22 <ehird> and start a new project
14:55:41 <ais523> it's already installed
14:56:37 <oerjan> hm so aardappel does mean potato
14:56:47 <ehird> ais523: great, just enable it then
14:56:49 <ehird> in the kde settings panel
14:56:53 <ais523> I can't figure out where the settings panel is
14:56:58 <ais523> I found it in 4.1, but it was broken
14:57:03 <ais523> here I'm having trouble finding it altogether
14:57:30 <ais523> hmm... do you think it's under settings, settings, system, or system settings?
14:57:30 <ehird> I am getting tempted to install kubuntu
14:57:36 <ais523> someone ought to fix that k menu garble
14:57:46 <ehird> when's karmickckckckoala out again?
14:57:51 <ehird> ais523: you want system settings
14:57:57 <ais523> ehird: it's out in october
14:58:02 <ais523> jaunty jackalope's out in april
14:58:09 <ehird> is that the next release?
14:58:15 <ais523> karmic's only just been named
14:58:31 <ehird> ais523: does KDE4.2 have less settingscruft?
14:58:44 <ais523> I don't know, I can't find it
14:58:49 <ehird> I meant in general
14:58:51 <ais523> it isn't under system settings
14:59:08 <oerjan> ais523: you have to click the mouse in the lower left corner, click control shift meta alt and the mouse, move it diagonally to the other corner, release alt and meta, and chant "Ph.nglui mglw.nfah Cthulhu R.lyeh wgah.nagl fhtagn!" before you release the rest
14:59:31 <ais523> oerjan: I would actually try that, but I might get in trouble chanting here and I'm not sure how to pronounce it
14:59:41 <ais523> besides, I have super over here not meta, should I press ESC first instead?
14:59:52 <oerjan> do both just to be sure
15:00:17 <ehird> ais523: just splutter over what you can't pronounce.
15:00:33 <oerjan> ehird: i _really_ don't recommend that with these things.
15:00:45 <ais523> well, the desktop settings don't seem settingcrufty
15:00:48 <ais523> there's less there than Gnome
15:00:48 <ehird> ais523: can you test Jaunty already?
15:00:52 <ais523> but that's just what I got from right-clicking
15:00:59 <ais523> ehird: yes, you can set your repos to jaunty and download it
15:01:07 <ais523> I don't want to risk that without a spare computer, though
15:01:08 <ehird> I'd rather install jaunty plain
15:01:18 <ehird> I really want something with 4.2 out of the box, tbh
15:01:22 <ais523> they haven't packaged it onto install CDs yet, I don't think
15:01:25 <ehird> upgrading KDE and the like tends to leave cruft around
15:01:29 <ais523> but I got 4.2 from intrepid-proposed
15:01:47 <ais523> I generally run -proposed so I can help out Ubuntu with bug reports and fixes before they hit the masses
15:02:44 <ehird> why don't they build CDs automatically, anyway...
15:02:52 <ais523> hmm... Dolphin is reminding me surprisingly of Nautilus
15:02:57 <ais523> ehird: they have to decide what goes on them, I think
15:03:07 <ehird> isn't Dolphin supposed to be really crap
15:03:08 <ais523> all the standard packages ofc, but also which nonstandard ones to add
15:03:18 <ais523> ehird: well, KDE fans seem not to like it
15:03:27 <ehird> http://dolphin.kde.org/images/home.png
15:03:33 <ehird> gee, they ripped off Finder wholeslae.
15:03:51 <ais523> heh, I was going to say the same thing but with Nautilus
15:03:59 <ais523> so I can only assume that all three file managers work much the same way
15:04:09 <ehird> ais523: Nautilus is more like the mac os classic filemanager
15:04:16 <ais523> I know that Nautilus stole the eject buttons next to unmountable things from Mac OS X
15:04:21 <ehird> but that screen is almost 100% identical to Finder
15:04:36 <ais523> apart from the toolbar at the top, it's the same as nautilus too
15:05:05 <ais523> and you can even get Explorer to do that if you mess around with the settings a bit, but it isn't intelligent enough to figure out how best to do it itself and it looks even uglier
15:05:14 <ehird> that breadcrumb is nice though
15:05:44 <ais523> Nautilus has button-shaped breadcrumbs
15:06:01 <ais523> based on the Gnome principle of making clickable areas as big as you can get away with to make clicking on them faster
15:06:03 <ehird> probably if I did install linux I'd use a tiling window manager or something
15:06:13 <ais523> well, Gnome vs. KDE is more than just the window managers
15:07:11 <ehird> ais523: oh jeez, windows weenies claimed dolphin was copied from Explorer...
15:07:14 <ehird> now _that's_ plain retarded
15:07:15 <ehird> http://www.aeroxp.org/board/index.php?showtopic=8352
15:07:44 <oerjan> it's just 3 minutes ago it's not my fault you TALK SO DAMN FAST
15:08:22 <ehird> oh dear, x11 support on Leopard got worse
15:08:25 <ehird> specifically, visuals-wise
15:08:35 <ehird> they forgot to update the quartz-x11 wm to use the new window decorations
15:08:48 <ehird> so it displays a Tiger-looking window...
15:09:01 <ehird> and the shadows are all out of place.
15:10:28 <oerjan> hm patent law is going to be (even more) _hell_ once they invent time machines
15:10:32 <ehird> ais523: from that thread:
15:10:34 <ehird> "Then again, who needs linux? The ReactOS project (don't laugh!) is doing pretty well."
15:11:01 <ehird> i like reactos, but seriously
15:11:03 <ehird> look at what he's saying
15:11:09 <ehird> "We don't need other OSes, because we can clone Windows!"
15:11:19 <ais523> it has a long way to go, but I'd like to see it eventually do well
15:11:19 <ehird> "... What, you mean the other OSs are different for a _reason_?"
15:11:25 <ehird> "HA HA YEAH RIGHT"
15:12:26 <ais523> hmm... I didn't manage to find the system settings via the menus
15:12:36 <ais523> that failed too, now I'm messing with apt-cache
15:13:08 <ehird> ais523: do you think kubuntu will recognize my wireless kb/mouse from the livecd?
15:13:15 <ais523> quite possibly, I don't know
15:13:22 <ais523> but Ubuntu is pretty good at driver support nowadays
15:13:43 <ehird> unfortunately not on macs
15:13:51 <ehird> it is a pain to install linux on them
15:13:53 <ais523> aha, it wasn't installed
15:14:17 <ais523> it's because I turned off the automatic changing of which KDE features are installed
15:14:20 * ehird resizes Macintosh HD partition while booted in to it
15:14:25 <ais523> to get rid of kubuntu's usplash in favour of ubuntu's
15:14:31 <ehird> ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY
15:14:35 <ais523> ehird: that's impressive, although I can understand how it's possible
15:15:09 <ehird> actually, it fails because it's kind of fucked up -- i have a linux swap partition that i can't delete, but every operation fails because when it calls its internal libraries, they say they don't know none 'bout this here "Linux Swap"
15:15:23 <ais523> presumably you won't have to deal with having ubuntu and kubuntu simultaneously installed, so life will be easier for you
15:15:28 <ehird> if I remove linux swap, it just comes back again
15:15:40 <ehird> so I'll have to do some gparteding
15:16:11 <ehird> linux still uses x.org
15:16:17 <ehird> why am I planning to install it
15:16:22 <ehird> that way lies pain.
15:16:32 <ais523> does X not detect your screen correctly?
15:16:43 <ais523> Hardy was much better at detecting my screen than intrepid, by the way
15:16:59 <ehird> i'm not sure what it does right now, all I know is that every time I try linux, X11 fucks up somehow and I have to edit god damn xorg.conf
15:17:06 <ehird> I hate that file with the passion of a thousand burning suns
15:17:13 <ehird> lol: "Ctrl-Alt-Backspace is now disabled, to reduce issues experienced by users who accidentally trigger the key combo. Users who do want this function can enable it in their xorg.conf, or via the command dontzap --disable."
15:17:31 <ais523> in which version of what?
15:17:38 <ehird> jaunty latest alpha (4)
15:17:42 <ais523> I need to turn that back on if it's affecting Ubuntu
15:18:50 <ais523> wow, habits can form so easily
15:19:11 <ais523> I'm getting utterly confused because when I open windows, they're ending up in a different order on the taskbar relative to where they do in Gnome
15:19:39 <ehird> ais523: what would be the best way to get a system with kde 4.2?
15:19:43 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
15:20:02 <ais523> ehird: the advise from slashdot is to install opensuse, IIRC
15:20:11 <ais523> because they didn't mess up the packaging the same way Kubuntu did
15:20:18 <ais523> I have no personal experience of this, though
15:20:25 <ehird> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
15:20:28 <ais523> also, it's advise from slashdot
15:20:40 <ehird> yeah, to hell with slashdot.
15:20:52 <ehird> <slashdot poll> Who Poses the Greatest Threat To Your Privacy?
15:21:05 <ais523> yay, they added back the CowboyNeal option
15:21:13 <ehird> I was filling in my own answ´r
15:21:17 <ais523> it was gone for several months, and there was something of a rebellion brewing
15:21:23 <ais523> ugh, if that option's still gone...
15:21:42 <ais523> personally I think they should run polls where CowboyNeal is a plausible option even in non-Slashdot concepts
15:21:51 <ais523> such as "what's your favourite standard Slashdot poll option"
15:23:40 * ehird attempts to make linux swap into an hfs+ partition to remove it
15:24:48 <ais523> the referee's comments came back from the (3,2) Turing machine paper
15:24:56 <ais523> and one of them attacked me for numbering conjectures starting at 0
15:25:36 <ehird> NDA, I assume? because I'd love to hear that
15:25:48 <Slereah_> Well, it is true that this Alex Smith is a bit of a queer
15:25:50 <ais523> well, I haven't signed an NDA
15:25:57 <ais523> they said that Conway could get away with it but I couldn't
15:26:13 <ehird> ais523: are they trying to reject it on that premise?
15:26:23 <ais523> it was the standard reject-with-feedback
15:26:23 <ehird> would be funny if they did
15:26:36 <ehird> ais523: wait, wasn't it guaranteed to be in some journal?
15:26:40 <ehird> wolfram said so anyway
15:26:43 <ais523> which is the journal method of saying that they want to accept it, but are going to force you to make the changes rather than doing it yourself
15:26:46 <oerjan> maybe. try with the square root as well. i guess you can decompose it.
15:26:56 <ais523> and it's wolfram's journal, he has a vested interest in having it accepted
15:27:03 <ehird> "mith's Proof (to be published in Complex Systems):"
15:27:12 <ehird> compelx system's is wolfram's then?
15:27:15 <ehird> http://www.complex-systems.com/
15:27:18 <ehird> considerng that automata
15:27:47 <ais523> I also like the way the referee complains about some of my subsidiary minor results being irrelevant
15:27:53 <ehird> ais523: http://blog.wolfram.com/images/swolfram/turing_rule.gif <-- this is 2,3?
15:27:55 <ais523> maybe, but if I can establish a stronger result I may as well
15:28:00 <ehird> looks like one of the 256 automata
15:28:12 <ais523> that's a compressed version of 2,3's output
15:28:17 <ehird> right, but that graphic
15:28:25 <ehird> #ubuntu is so useless
15:28:29 <ais523> in particular, they only took the steps at which the turing tape head set a record for going left
15:28:33 <ehird> it's just idiots and stupid qusetions and flood and no help
15:28:40 <ais523> ehird: I agree, it's more useful when I'm on there helping people
15:28:46 <ehird> oi, get in there :P
15:29:01 <ais523> it's disappointing that the average competence level goes up when I ask for help and stick around later...
15:29:25 <ehird> Calamari is in there.
15:29:31 <ehird> He just asked a question.
15:29:48 <ais523> maybe I should join, but that would distract me
15:30:03 <ehird> What's the easiest way to get an Ubuntu system with kde 4.2, from scratch?
15:30:45 * ais523 vaguely wonders what would happen if you installed Debian minimal web-install, pointed the repos at kubuntu intrepid proposed, and did a dist-upgrade
15:30:59 <ehird> it'd work, but probably not as sleek as a desktop release
15:31:42 <ehird> wow, wolfram is more on crack than I realised
15:31:42 <ehird> No doubt it’ll be possible to find much better compilers, that make much better code.
15:31:42 <ehird> And that’ll be interesting. Perhaps one day there’ll even be practical molecular computers built from this very 2,3 Turing machine.
15:31:51 <ehird> no, there is no fucking way the 2,3 machine is practical, stop smoking
15:31:59 <ehird> you're hurting my brain cells
15:32:07 <ais523> everything in kubuntu is depended on by the kubuntu-desktop package, IIRC
15:32:12 <ais523> ehird: I agree, I think
15:32:21 <ehird> ais523: isn't there a minimal ubuntu install?
15:32:22 <ais523> O(2^2^n) is not practical from anyone's point of view
15:32:30 <ais523> ehird: there's the ubuntu alternate install CD
15:32:33 <ais523> which does more or less anything
15:32:35 <ehird> that's not minimal
15:32:40 <ais523> the CD itself isn't, no
15:32:43 <ehird> ais523: can you tweak it to install from another repo
15:32:46 <ais523> but I suspect minimal install would be in the options somewhere
15:32:59 <ehird> [[We don’t have to carefully build things up with engineering. We can just go out and search in the computational universe, and find things like universal computers—that are simple enough that we can imagine making them out of molecules.]]
15:33:03 <ehird> err, you freaking invented them
15:33:12 <ehird> you didn't find them in the goddamn bushes
15:33:17 <ais523> anyway, I think by far the easiest way is to install kubuntu intrepid, set the repo to -proposed and install updates
15:33:23 <ais523> that's the way it's meant to work
15:33:50 * ehird clicks 64 bit download and feels smug
15:34:20 <ehird> agh, slow download
15:34:25 * ehird gets it from germany instead
15:34:29 <ehird> germany have fast interwebs
15:34:35 <ehird> i hate mirror selections
15:34:37 <ehird> JUST PICK ONE FOR ME
15:34:52 <ais523> yes, I normally use German mirrors, either that or the one at Oxford University
15:35:01 <ehird> picking one closest to you is in fact the worst thing you can do...
15:35:03 <ais523> but the Oxford mirror doesn't have all the packages I think
15:35:22 <ehird> they're always slower than ones from countries just a few hops away from you
15:35:53 <ehird> ais523: It's because more people from the UK access sites in the UK, so the UK tubes are clogged :P</bullshit>
15:36:45 <ehird> from Italy's GARR/CILEA mirror service
15:37:01 <ais523> ehird: actually, that bullshit could be correct depending on how the peering agreements are set up
15:37:10 <ais523> although probably in this case it isn't
15:37:40 <ehird> it's the kind of thing that's totally wrong, but calculations you can make from it tend to be right in practice
15:37:49 <ehird> it leads you to the right results in the wrong way
15:38:42 <ehird> ais523: by the way, I did some research with #lisp the other day
15:38:46 <ehird> Symbolics do still sell lisp machines
15:38:51 <ehird> although obviously they don't _make_ new ones any more
15:39:01 <ehird> you have to contact their sales address
15:39:12 <ehird> and shipping makes buying prohibitive unless you live close
15:39:19 <ehird> ais523: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
15:39:28 <ehird> the neweest machine they have = $3500
15:39:40 <ehird> one down (runs on a modified old Mac) = $3200
15:39:44 <ais523> that's not that expensive
15:39:48 <ehird> same as above but less spec = $1200
15:39:49 <ais523> for something that specialised
15:39:59 <ehird> and yes, they're good prices
15:40:15 <ehird> but you have to go and get it yourself really, otherwise shipping would be crazy
15:40:37 <ehird> ais523: something I found amusing -- their sales guy commented on the torrent for their OpenGenera development environment (ported to linux)
15:40:37 <ais523> how's your VHDLing going?
15:40:40 <ehird> which had all the leaked source code
15:40:43 <ehird> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
15:40:48 <ehird> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
15:41:04 <ais523> and probably the best reaction
15:41:24 <ehird> yeah, it's not like symbolics are gonna be operating at a profit these days
15:41:39 <ehird> nothing they sell interests more than about 100 people in the world
15:41:52 <ehird> symbolics.com is the oldest registered domain, BTW
15:41:55 <ehird> registered in 1985
15:42:02 <ehird> and it has run continuously
15:42:18 <ehird> there might have been .orgs before that
15:42:23 <ehird> and possibly .nets for infrastructure
15:42:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3600-front.jpg
15:43:01 <ehird> apparently they're very, very lou
15:43:10 <ehird> most people put them in another room and hook up the terminal with a long cable, IIRC
15:43:38 <ais523> what makes them so noisy?
15:43:40 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics3640.JPG
15:43:44 <ehird> that's the $3500 one
15:43:48 <ehird> ais523: well, they're 80s hardware
15:43:54 <ehird> and they aren't micropcs, they predate that
15:44:12 <ehird> ais523: I think they were the first "single-user" machines after the mainframe boom
15:44:29 <ehird> so it was just the power fit into the small space and stuff like that
15:46:23 <ais523> for some reason Konqueror didn't have a "back" button by default
15:46:27 <ais523> I reset it to defaults, then it did
15:46:34 <ais523> so either configuration borkage or packaging borkage
15:46:48 <ehird> funnily enough, the reason lisp machines were single-user was because it was easier to implement
15:46:54 <ehird> and let them put in less safety checks
15:46:58 <ehird> (to avoid, e.g. people crashing it)
15:48:19 <ehird> i think I might write a program to generate tons of combinators
15:49:01 <ehird> ais523: by the way, I refound ninjacode yesterday and sgeo told me to revive it
15:49:09 <ais523> well, KDE4.2 still seems to have the usual huge set of settings
15:49:15 <ais523> ehird: yes if you think you can make it work
15:49:23 <ehird> ais523: does it have gtk/qt ones
15:49:27 <ehird> also, I think I can
15:49:32 <ais523> on the other hand, I rather like that, for me it's what makes KDE KDE
15:50:04 <ehird> ninjacode linecounter:
15:50:27 <ehird> {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C.
15:50:34 <ais523> hmm... how short can I get the linecounter in Perl?
15:50:38 <ehird> (same principle as underload quine)
15:50:53 <ais523> how many is it in ninjacode?
15:50:54 <ehird> oh that's not the same
15:51:05 <ehird> ais523: this adds line counts
15:51:05 <ehird> a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c
15:51:06 <ais523> oh, what's the ninjacode doing?
15:51:37 <ais523> perl -pe '$_="$.. $_"'
15:51:38 <ehird> 0=~1+.' C~ <- = is like perl -p, it runs the rest of the program with the next line on TOS, then prints TOS and goes a gain
15:51:52 <ehird> ~ is swap, . is print, 'c is the num of character c, C prints a character out from its number
15:52:01 <ehird> from that it should be fairly clear how that works
15:52:12 <ehird> ais523: so as an actual program:
15:52:32 <ehird> ninjacode wins hands-down, then
15:52:36 <ehird> although, = as a filter is kind of stupid
15:52:39 <ehird> as it should be equality
15:52:46 <ehird> whatever, it's the principle of the thing
15:53:17 <ais523> I wonder if I should add bitwise-XOR to Underlambda as a one-char operator not a library keyword?
15:53:29 <ais523> that way, it could be used for equality tests the same way subtraction can be used for greater-than
15:53:41 <ais523> (subtraction in Underlambda saturates at 0)
15:54:00 <ehird> kubuntu downloaded!
15:54:05 <ehird> the 64 bit version works fine right?
15:54:45 <ehird> ais523: parsing ninjacode is very TC, by the way
15:54:59 <ehird> as you can extend the parser in arbitrary ways, and it always picks the longest matching symbol name
15:55:08 <ais523> parsing underlambda will be relatively trivial, but not as easy as underload
15:55:10 <ehird> {+ is {+ if {+ is defined, otherwise it's {, +
15:55:18 <ehird> an exception is made for alphanumerics
15:55:22 <ehird> in that foo is always foo
15:55:27 <ehird> although foo+ can be foo+ or foo,+
15:55:29 <ais523> ehird: if {+ and +% are defined, but {+% isn't, what does {+% parse as?
15:55:39 <ehird> you can require libraries that do this kind of stuff to the parser at any time
15:55:42 <ehird> including in e.g. conditionals
15:55:52 <ehird> thus, you CAN compile it, but only if you disallow tricksy includes
15:55:59 <ehird> but full ninjacode is Very Highly Unparsable
15:56:04 <ehird> you can't even parse a file at a time
15:56:10 <ehird> it has to be one token at a time
15:56:49 <ehird> ais523: it sees {+, all going good, then %, oops {+% isn't defined, break here, {+, %
15:57:04 <ais523> what about {+%} when {+ and +%} are defined?
15:57:04 <ehird> it parses left-to-right, top-to-bottom because the syntax can change at any time
15:57:05 <ehird> so this is consistent
15:57:16 <ehird> ais523: {+, %, }, yep
15:57:27 <ehird> but generally you shouldn't use names that aren't defined :P
15:58:19 <ehird> ugh, the only blank cd I can find is dusty as hell
15:58:23 <ais523> do they have a default meaning?
15:58:40 <ehird> ais523: trigger an error
15:58:41 <ais523> ehird: ugh, you mean Macs can't install operating systems without rebooting?
15:59:03 <ais523> given that you're installing onto a different partition, in theory it ought to be possible
15:59:07 <ais523> using virtualisation or something
15:59:15 <ehird> ais523: that'd mess up hardware detection
15:59:22 * ehird just uses a dvd-writable
15:59:26 <ehird> I feel kind of bad, but I have like 100 :P
16:00:12 <ehird> ugh, they're in unopenable packaging
16:02:19 <ehird> putting 700 MB on a 4.7GB disk feels kind of silly
16:02:31 <ais523> you'll still have the rest left to put things on
16:02:50 <ehird> ais523: well, yes, this is a rewritable disk, but err
16:03:00 <ehird> you know that regular CDs/DVDs only burn once right?
16:03:08 <ais523> I've burnt a CD-R more than once
16:03:12 <ais523> you can burn into the unused space
16:03:16 <ehird> unsupported-ly, I assume.
16:03:19 <ais523> although you can't overwrite what you've already burntt
16:03:28 <ais523> I did this using Windows XP's out-of-the-box CD burner
16:04:03 <ais523> when accessing a recordable CD, drives look past the end of the burnt area to see if anything's been burnt there
16:04:11 <ais523> so that the multiple-burning thing works
16:04:23 <ais523> you lose some space (a few KB I think) in overhead every time you burn, though
16:04:57 <ehird> I hope the burn/reboot cycle is fixed sometime
16:05:08 <ais523> what fix do you imagine?
16:05:11 <ehird> like, have special hardware that you copy an ISO to, and it mounts it, somehow
16:05:19 <ehird> so you just download the ISO, click, reboot
16:05:22 <ehird> and it's there as a drive
16:05:44 <ais523> maybe a very small virtualiser in firmware
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:17:35 <ais523> important decision: what should we parse the code into?
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:18:51 <ehird> ais523: CLASSES
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:19:01 <ehird> <oklopol> LISTS
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:19:06 <ehird> <ais523> MORE NORMALIZED STRINGS
16:08:06 <ehird> <Riastradh> FUNCTIONS!
16:08:43 <ais523> COMPONENTALIZED VISUAL ACTIVEX COMPONENTS!
16:09:12 <ehird> CPUS FABRICATED ON-THE-FLY TO PROCESS THE DATA!
16:09:31 <ais523> because everyone likes kittens, obviously
16:09:50 <ehird> all built to one design
16:09:56 <ehird> the errors in each one from the design represent the bit patterns
16:10:00 <ehird> of the in-memory representation
16:10:08 <ais523> heh, reminds me of that esolang which is disguised as pip
16:10:51 <ehird> Righty ho, I will now reboot.
16:11:01 <ehird> I expect to be conversing with you while installing Kubuntu.
16:11:07 <ehird> If I am not, I will flame Ubuntu when I return.
16:11:17 <ehird> FLAME PREPARATION ->
16:13:11 <oklopol> well there's a nice homomorphism from code to the empty program.
16:13:42 <oerjan> it even preserves sequential composition
16:14:13 <oerjan> well for some languages that is
16:14:33 <oerjan> it may also preserve quine-ness
16:16:13 <oerjan> and it can be used to strip comments
16:16:48 <oklopol> not to mention the compression.
16:17:21 <ais523> it also gives a 100% reduction in execution time
16:18:32 <oerjan> oh and it gives very good encryption
16:19:01 <oerjan> you'd really wonder why it isn't used more often
16:19:38 <oerjan> (guaranteed unbreakable, no silly P=NP assumptions)
16:19:44 <ais523> oerjan: unfortunately, on some programs it introduces bugs where they don't do what they're meant to do
16:20:09 <oerjan> well that's true, on the other hand it also removes most bugs
16:22:25 <ehird> ais523: Disappointing.
16:22:27 <ehird> It booted up fine, I selected try out, it booted into KDE. My mouse and keyboard are then sterile. (It only worked at bootup because of bios compatibility layer stuff)
16:22:45 <ehird> Fixable, I am sure.
16:22:51 <ehird> But not very out of the box.
16:23:06 <ais523> I used to use a wireless mouse, and it worked just fine in Ubuntu
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16:23:14 <ais523> but threw it away because I was bored of replacing the batteries
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16:23:39 <ehird> this mightymouse has fallen on the floor many times and its battery life is painfully short because of that
16:23:39 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga.
16:23:56 <ehird> it's still better than other mice, though...
16:24:44 <ehird> ugh, they recommend rEFIt for booting
16:24:48 <ehird> but rEFIt slows down the boot and is slow
16:27:23 <ehird> [16:27:18] <umar> i cant under stand ..................................................its tu tu that ,,,,,,,
16:27:29 <ehird> popular channels are painful.
16:28:45 <ais523> ehird: are you online from Mac OS X atm?
16:29:00 * ehird bets he gets an answer starting "First, click"
16:30:16 <ehird> http://www.geekaholic.org/2008/04/good-bye-gentoo-hello-leopard.html <-- worst april fools ever
16:30:32 <ehird> it's a reasonable, well-thought out post on why switching to leopard could make sense. ha! ha! HHAHAHA!
16:32:26 <ehird> ais523: welp, looks like I need to use my usb mouse/kb
16:33:23 <oklopol> yeah you should definitely use your mouse to kickban umar
16:33:44 <ehird> ais523: do you know how horrific rEFIt is?
16:34:04 <ais523> it seems slightly pointless given that it just chains into GRUB for anything but boot-to-Mac
16:34:07 <ais523> it looks pretty, though
16:34:10 <ehird> first, you get a horrible screen on startup with the kind of icons linux users make that they think look like os x because they have lens flares on them
16:34:14 <ehird> then, to boot into linux,
16:34:16 <ehird> it BOOTS INTO LILO
16:34:23 <ehird> it goes rEFIt -> lilo -> linux
16:34:30 <ais523> yes, I know about the chaining
16:34:36 <ehird> it's awful. awful awful awful.
16:34:36 <ais523> the example I saw was worse, though
16:34:38 <ehird> and lilo is awful.
16:34:52 <ais523> it was refit -> mac os x, or alternatively you could choose windows or linux
16:35:04 <ais523> and whichever you chose, it went to a grub menu where you chose windows/linux
16:35:07 <ehird> maybe I could make bootcamp work...
16:35:17 <ehird> that uses the regular mac bootloader
16:35:27 <ehird> and lets you hold down option at the bootup screen to choose mac / "windows"
16:35:28 <ehird> and defaults to mac
16:35:35 <ehird> = same speed, no lilo, etc
16:35:52 <ehird> I hate that smiley
16:37:22 <ehird> I like how leopard comes with boot camp
16:37:32 <ehird> how many other OSes include fully-developed tools to run other OSes?
16:37:57 <ais523> well, there's Wubi, I'm not sure what you count that as though
16:38:03 <ehird> does that come with windows
16:38:20 <ehird> ok, I'm going to boot into kubuntu livecd again to delete the swap partition, reboot into OS X, run boot camp, then install kubuntu
16:38:25 <ais523> I like the way that the Windows and Linux filesystems each think the other's filesystem is inside their own
16:38:26 <ehird> as soon as I get my USB stuffs
16:38:36 <ehird> ais523: klein filesystem
16:38:49 <ehird> wubi is stupid as a long-term system, anyway
16:39:00 <ais523> although physically the linux system's inside the windows system, as the windows system ends up in /dev
16:39:13 <ais523> and why do you say that about wubi?
16:39:24 <ehird> because you're just living on top of windows
16:39:29 <ehird> = second-class citizen
16:39:47 <ais523> it's not living on top
16:40:12 <ais523> it's an entirely separate OS, it just installs itself into the location on the disk where windows would expect applications to be installed, and adds registry entries
16:40:20 <ais523> if you boot into linux with wubi, windows has nothing to do with anything
16:40:24 <ais523> apart from the filesystem being ntfs
16:41:46 <ais523> ugh, perl.org's still down
16:42:51 <oerjan> eine kleine filesystem
16:44:04 <ais523> are filesystems really female?
16:44:19 <oklopol> i thought it was some kinda term
16:44:22 <ehird> okay, horrible usb kb & mouse in operation
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16:56:33 <ais523> ehirdbuntu: is the wireless working too?
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16:58:27 <ehirdbuntu> there, swap partition deleted, os x time so I can run boot camp ->
16:59:16 <ehirdbuntu> no wait, it wants a root partition to continue, argh!
16:59:52 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: can you type hash-kubuntu for me? there's no hash key here...
17:00:02 <ais523> and isn't it on shift-3?
17:00:10 <ais523> that's where it is on a US keyboard
17:01:43 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: do you know how to partition edit on kubuntu livecd without installing? :P
17:01:58 <ais523> not off the top of my head
17:02:23 <ehirdbuntu> also, the new startup menu is very nice
17:02:31 <ehirdbuntu> it's a blend of the windows start menu and the os x spotlight
17:02:31 <ais523> ehirdbuntu: try ktparted rather than gparted?
17:02:45 <ais523> the gnome partition editor is unlikely to be on a KDE system
17:02:56 <ais523> what about just parted?
17:03:11 <ehirdbuntu> works, but has the hideous console interface :-D
17:05:32 <ais523> do you want me to look it up?
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17:19:13 <ehird> ais523: how much space do you think I should give ubuntu?
17:19:15 <ehird> boot camp gives 5gb by default, which would leave me ~3gb of space for documents
17:19:29 <ehird> 10gb for ubuntu would leave 64gb free on OS X
17:19:56 <ais523> well, it depends on how many documents you're storing on each side
17:20:05 <ais523> 5gb seems about right, you'll want your documents on the mac side, probably
17:20:10 <ehird> likely not much on linux, I'm only going to be using it for coding and messing about
17:20:17 <ehird> yeah, 10gb would leave more room for expansion though
17:20:22 <ehird> and still leave me a lot on os x side
17:28:23 <ehird> parittioneratering
17:28:28 <ehird> partitioning takes far too long
17:28:46 <ais523> it has to move a lot of thigns around
17:31:49 <ehird> all the space it's using was free
17:31:58 <ehird> hmm it says you need 32-bit windows
17:32:05 <ehird> it should work with 64 bit linux
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17:38:54 <ais523> what are you going to talk about during the install?
17:39:18 <oerjan> i thought tic-tac-toe was the game of choice these days
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17:40:28 <ehirdbuntu> what swap space is recommended? I have 2.5gb ram
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17:40:59 <ais523> half your ram is usual
17:41:26 <ais523> nowadays it doesn't really matter if you set it to 0 or your entire drive, until the point where you run out of memory altogether
17:42:03 <ehirdbuntu> ext3 is the recommended fs still, right?
17:42:19 <ais523> although it'll probably be ext4 in a year, once that's stable
17:43:55 <oklopol> i recently learned to play infinite board tic tac toe in my head, but somehow i think it's less impressive on irc
17:44:07 <ais523> oklopol: have you ever played 4 dimensional tic tac toe?
17:44:14 <ais523> it works pretty well on a 4x4x4x4 board
17:44:29 <oklopol> ais523: i've played infinite dimensional tic tac toe.
17:44:43 <ais523> but limiting the size of the board makes it work better
17:44:49 <oklopol> i had a bot for that here once
17:44:58 <ais523> as for infinite board, how many in a row do you play? 5, like the japanese do?
17:45:11 <ais523> they play on a 19x19 board but it may as well be infinite, players rarely reach the edges
17:45:17 <oklopol> the japanese and the finnish
17:45:24 <ais523> and do you play the 3-3 / 4-4 barring rules?
17:45:26 <oklopol> no one plays the 3x3 tic tac toe, it's stupid
17:45:35 <oklopol> i don't know what those are
17:45:45 <ais523> it's a technique to remove the first player advantage
17:46:06 <ais523> a four is any position where you could add one counter and get five in a row
17:46:29 <oklopol> "remove it", has that been proven?
17:46:33 <ais523> a three is any position where you can make a four which has two locations to add the final counter by adding one counter
17:46:37 <oklopol> that all games are draws with it
17:46:41 <ais523> oklopol: it doesn't manage it perfectly, but it reduces it somewhat
17:47:05 <oklopol> i mean it's a solved game, so could've been proven
17:47:05 <ais523> the rules say that the first player (but not the second player) can't play a move that simultaneously creates two threes, and can't play a move that simultaneously creates two fours
17:47:21 <ais523> apparently the first player still has an advantage even after that
17:47:36 <ais523> so some groups also play that the first player can't get 6 or more in a row
17:48:00 <oklopol> well i suck at the game, just like i suck in most games
17:51:28 <ehirdbuntu> I'm thinking killer butterfly, or criminal lightbulb, or kitten.
17:53:17 <oerjan> this is disturbing, the number of google hits is about the same for those
17:53:47 <oklopol> what, people can't spell "fhtagn"? well yeah that is pretty disturbing
17:54:01 <oklopol> i have a bad feeling the shop closes at 20 and not at 21...
17:54:13 <oklopol> i mean it has to, since it's nearly 20 already
17:54:19 <AnMaster> <ehirdbuntu> ext3 is the recommended fs still, right? <-- in case you are interested I usually use ext3 for / and /boot, and xfs for the rest (/home /var /usr, and /opt is symlinked to /usr/opt)
17:54:33 <oklopol> that's how shops work, they close when you decide to go to them.
17:54:43 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, I usually use LVM too :)
17:54:44 <ais523> AnMaster: well, even if you're correct, and you probably are, ehirdbuntu is going to disagree with you on principle
17:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well I find that xfs has what I want from ext4 but is a lot more well tested and stable. Stuff like defrag and such. Not that xfs gets as fragmented as ext3...
17:55:55 <ais523> and not that ext3 gets fragmented enough to matter anyway
17:56:04 <AnMaster> and last I looked online defrag was still not completed for ext4
17:56:15 <oklopol> it's funny how ais523 has started commenting like that just after ehird actually started deserving it much less. maybe it's just so ais523 wouldn't be right, dunno, still funny.
17:56:15 <ais523> besides, it's well known that tar is a pretty effective defragmenter
17:56:18 <AnMaster> ais523, depends, I had some partitions manage that fine, while other got super-fragmented
17:56:20 <ais523> tarball your filesystem, untar it again
17:56:40 <oklopol> i mean he did not disagree with AnMaster on principle there for instance
17:57:09 <AnMaster> also there is no single best FS for everyone IMO. People use computers in different ways
17:57:20 <oerjan> oklopol: stop talking bullshit!
17:57:23 <ais523> although I imagine most of them are better than bffs
17:58:03 <AnMaster> ais523, however I can say ext3 gets fragmented for /usr/portage on gentoo. Lots of small files (so I use a smaller than usual block size for it on xfs to not waste space).
17:58:05 <oklopol> oerjan: i cannot, i like noticing patterns in how people respond to patterns in other people.
17:58:53 <AnMaster> find /usr/portage -type f | wc -l
17:59:23 <AnMaster> ais523, that is on xfs since with ext3 it got very slow and fragmented
18:00:06 <AnMaster> also I have a special partition for it, due to the very different usage pattern for it compared to the rest of /usr
18:00:21 <ais523> why is portage directly under /usr by the way?
18:00:39 <AnMaster> ais523, why is the default location /usr/ports on freebsd?
18:00:52 <ais523> I'd expect it to be inside /usr/share somewhere, or maybe even /var
18:00:54 <AnMaster> both fill the same purpose basically
18:01:04 <ais523> although /usr makes more sense I suppose as you're editing /usr anyway
18:01:33 <AnMaster> ais523, you could change the location in /etc/make.conf
18:01:38 <ehirdbuntu> those who know me will know i hate all filesystems.
18:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you suggest instead?
18:01:57 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: git is nice ... for a filesystem.
18:02:13 <ais523> it has all the features a filesystem needs
18:02:17 <ais523> so how is it not a filesystem?
18:02:36 <ehirdbuntu> AnMaster: as for what I suggest instead -- I'll elaborate when I have my regular kb back
18:02:37 <AnMaster> ais523, one thing IMO: It needs to run on another file system for the actual data storage
18:02:54 <AnMaster> but I guess that depends on how you define fs
18:03:09 <AnMaster> so yeah it could be considered a fs
18:03:26 <AnMaster> ehird, kb? knowledge base? kickban?
18:03:42 <ehirdbuntu> instead of storing its metadata in sectors, it stores them in host files
18:05:33 <AnMaster> ehird, hm still changing from using n files to 1 raw linear block device is not that trivial... Since suddenly you need to handle "next block is already used for something else". Which is handled by the filesystem otherwise. In fact it is one of the important tasks for a "traditional" file system.
18:05:48 <AnMaster> so I guess it is a filesystem more like unionfs is one
18:05:56 <ehirdbuntu> you'll see the likeness to an fs, almost certainly
18:06:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I did once, but yeah it was ages ago
18:06:11 <ehirdbuntu> plus, the general structure is fs-like
18:06:25 <AnMaster> FETCH_HEAD HEAD ORIG_HEAD branches config description hooks index info logs objects refs
18:07:40 <AnMaster> 00 05 10 18 20 2a 32 37 3f 44 4d 56 60 [... more of the same cut here, lots more, but don't want to spam too much on irc ...] info pack
18:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, from file (and I suspect it is wrong):
18:08:17 <AnMaster> objects/ad/635812a04ef5b45dddc8386e0b9dbe7bc56435: VAX COFF executable - version 8256
18:08:17 <AnMaster> objects/ad/b9d370d66c4ea6655c61e17a187b1eaa804dea: VAX COFF executable not stripped
18:08:17 <AnMaster> objects/b1/145b6715205d42d6a1f4ce9ddd7a061018be0e: VAX COFF executable - version 21221
18:08:36 <AnMaster> pahole is a kernel.org project, lots of source, no executables
18:08:44 <AnMaster> so I guess compressed in some way
18:09:10 <ehirdbuntu> AnMaster: that version looks like VMS version number to me
18:09:16 <ehirdbuntu> 21221... that's one heavily modified file
18:09:37 <AnMaster> ehird, file thinks everything in objects/[:xdigit:]/* is various variants of VAX COFF executable
18:09:57 <oerjan> ehirdbuntu: well with all that coughing there have probably been a constant stream of virus on it
18:10:07 <AnMaster> objects/2d/8c3aff822c2d0c924600e0ebe82a18df28013e: VAX COFF executable not stripped - version 24267
18:10:11 <AnMaster> objects/24/d209abe394af6b364e07e78a8712efb80fc17c: VAX COFF executable
18:10:29 <AnMaster> ehird, the stuff in objects/pack/:
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.idx: data
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.pack: Quake I or II world or extension
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.idx: data
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.pack: Quake I or II world or extension
18:10:50 <ehirdbuntu> kernel devs hide their quake modz in git files, yep
18:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, either git is worse than I thought or...
18:11:22 <AnMaster> did you say I should look at refs too?
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18:12:12 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, btw I haven't done anything but some git pull on this repo, no commits or such
18:13:10 <MizardX> http://steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/ :)
18:13:18 <AnMaster> refs/tags/v1.0 refs/tags/v1.1 refs/tags/v1.2 refs/tags/v1.3 refs/tags/v1.4 refs/tags/v1.5 refs/tags/v1.6 refs/remotes/origin/HEAD refs/remotes/origin/master refs/heads/master
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18:43:34 <ehird> does konversation look kde3-style to you too/
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19:23:42 <ehird> [19:23] <burkmat> !hi | rapha
19:23:43 <ehird> [19:23] <ubottu> rapha: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu!
19:27:06 <GregorR> From that screenshot, it definitely looks KDE3-style :P
19:27:37 <ehird> woo apple keyboard works
19:29:49 <GregorR> Why would anybody voluntarily use an Apple keyboard ... I've never used an Apple keyboard that wasn't a miserable pile of crap.
19:30:10 <ehird> ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect.
19:30:20 <ehird> Sure, every one before that was god-awful...
19:30:29 <ehird> But these are the best keyboards I've ever used (and I've used a model M.)
19:31:02 <ehird> Whee, mouse works too.
19:31:46 <GregorR> I don't exactly know what keyboards Apple was cranking out each year :P
19:34:39 <ehird> GregorR: http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg
19:34:41 <ehird> not the best picture
19:34:47 <ehird> (the keys are shallower than they look there...)
19:35:35 <GregorR> Well, that looks very much like a keyboard :P
19:36:06 <ehird> 255 package upgrade GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
19:37:53 <GregorR> Because your system stores the number of updates in an unsigned char? :P
19:38:49 <ehird> I want a car signed by gregor
19:39:43 <ehird> is that a really tiny penis
19:39:54 <GregorR> ... with an inverted head?
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19:46:36 <comex> http://entrian.com/goto/
19:50:12 <Sgeo> No COBOL style ALTER? Or am I hallucinating tha there's an ALTER?
19:50:33 <Sgeo> ...there's a COBOL 2002 standard?
19:55:21 <comex> ^ there must be a cdr joke somewhere
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20:01:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect. <-- what happened during 2008?
20:02:50 <AnMaster> oh and is http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg a slimmed model or a more full size usable one?
20:03:31 <Slereah_> Fact : French mac keyboards have , instead of . on the number pad
20:03:51 <AnMaster> Slereah_, Fact: So does all Swedish keyboards I ever seen
20:03:56 <comex> hey ehird want to take over A Nomic
20:04:07 <AnMaster> since we use , instead of . for decimal point
20:05:16 <ehird> AnMaster: That's full size
20:05:18 <ehird> size of a regular kb
20:05:40 <ehird> and the ridges between keys are nice, I almost never mistype
20:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, and how far does keys go when you press them? on most laptops they don't got down as much as on classical PC keyboards
20:06:11 <ehird> they go down quite a bit, more than regular pc keyboards
20:06:19 <ehird> they're specially weighted
20:06:31 <ehird> but it's quite a quiet keyboard, unlike the model M, still tactile though
20:07:07 * FireFly wants a flat-keyed Das Keyboard Ultimate with quiet buttons
20:07:41 <AnMaster> are they as nice as those clicking keyboards?
20:07:58 <ehird> AnMaster: = model Ms, yes, I'd say easier to type with too
20:08:01 <AnMaster> while I hate the clicking sound the tactile experience was good
20:08:04 <ehird> since you have to quite hit the keys with model m-s
20:08:25 <ehird> AnMaster: unfortunately, you can't buy those any more, there's a new model out
20:08:32 <ehird> which looks nicer but has less tall keys
20:08:48 <ehird> well, actually, I have a spare one here iirc :-P
20:08:53 <ehird> you could probably get one from ebay though
20:09:06 <AnMaster> well a lot of keyboards has tend to go down when you just rest your hand and don't type, s o yes the extra force for model m-s is nice
20:09:14 <AnMaster> for me, it is subjective of course
20:09:27 <ehird> I can lie my hand on this kb and it doesn't press
20:09:36 <ehird> it seems to be: hard, easy, hard
20:09:51 <ehird> i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit
20:10:02 <ehird> [20:09] <ehird> i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit
20:10:06 <ehird> context is for the weak
20:11:55 <ehird> okay, reboot into kde4.2 hopefully ->
20:21:18 <ehird> Please reconnect via wireless when you boot. Honestly.
20:21:21 <ehird> It's not hard, goddammit!
20:22:06 <ehird> Apart from that... Hey, this ain't bad.
20:22:11 <comex> by the way, until ehird joins ##Nomic, I'm going to talk about nomic in here
20:22:15 <comex> so it's in all your interests to get em to join
20:22:22 <ehird> ais523 will complain at you.
20:22:56 * ehird installs firefox because konqueror is awful.
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20:23:35 <ehird> comex: I see no nomic talk.
20:39:49 <Ilari> Pretty only things from Firefox I miss with Konqueror are proper sessions support, NoScript and that one site nickname extension...
20:40:25 <ehird> I kind of dislike the "doesn't support shit" part.
20:42:45 <ehird> shit, linux font rendering is really terrible.
20:42:51 <ehird> like really really awful
20:43:07 <ehird> compared to OS X? I want to rip my eyes out.
20:44:15 <AnMaster> ehird, got the wireless working yet?
20:44:41 <ehird> They've always worked, it just forgets it at startup because it's stupid.
20:44:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also about font rendering: depends
20:44:50 <ehird> Well, I say always.
20:44:57 <ehird> I mean after I spent ages getting it working.
20:45:01 <ehird> AnMaster: yer joking right
20:45:15 <AnMaster> if you compile freetype from source you can enable an algorithm that apple patented
20:45:26 <AnMaster> because they don't like legal issues
20:45:28 <ehird> AnMaster: screenshot of the result?
20:45:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well there was some website comparing
20:47:06 <AnMaster> ehird, first: some background about the issue, it is related to hinter
20:47:08 <AnMaster> http://www.freetype.org/patents.html
20:47:11 * ehird worries about machine; Linux doesn't seem to put the machine at rest like os x
20:47:13 <ehird> the fan's always going
20:47:24 <ehird> oh it would be better if it only sucked one ball
20:48:28 <ehird> stop whirring machine :(
20:48:59 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I'm not sure about such stuff. But probably it is just a case of finding the right setting
20:49:04 <ehird> people keep saying turn off hinting in the google
20:49:05 <ehird> and i rage at them
20:49:06 <AnMaster> since I *don't* have a laptop...
20:49:15 <ehird> because if you turn off hinting you can see the subpixel
20:49:18 <ehird> AnMaster: err, nor I
20:49:38 <AnMaster> and this one has "one speed always fan"
20:49:49 <AnMaster> I have dynamic cpu speed activated though
20:49:49 <ehird> normally my fan is off
20:50:03 <AnMaster> especially the GPU fan is loud
20:50:04 <ehird> yeah, this is distracting :-P
20:50:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since I don't have a computer that supports fan control I don't know exactly
20:50:39 <AnMaster> iirc lm_sensors bundles something called fancontrol
20:50:50 <AnMaster> possibly acpi is used for other fans
20:51:08 <AnMaster> I'm not really the right person to ask about that sort of stuff
20:51:14 <ehird> 'Read-only file system'
20:51:17 <ehird> I hate it when that happens
20:52:11 <AnMaster> ehird, err how the heck did you manage that?
20:52:38 <ehird> dunno; it happens all the time for me with linux
20:52:48 <ehird> i think linux just hates me
20:52:50 <ehird> like hate hate hate hate hate
20:53:06 <ehird> maybe I should flaming os x, it might like me more then
20:54:30 * ehird votes to name new nasa node "Mister Splashy Pants"
20:55:02 <oklopol> anyone want to share their mind with mine?
20:55:15 <oklopol> i mean like, so that we'd both control both bodies
20:55:25 <AnMaster> ehird, google image search yielded this: http://o0l0o.org/images/Bildschirmfoto_fsl_new.png not sure if that is enabled or disabled
20:55:43 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'd want to do that indefinitely though.
20:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, also this http://puntium.smugmug.com/photos/183993189_f7waP-S.jpg
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20:56:48 <ehird> enabled or disabled?
20:56:59 <ehird> that looks nice, though
20:57:02 <AnMaster> ehird, the latter I think is both side by side
20:58:55 <ehird> no subpixel rendering
20:59:01 <ehird> seems to do the trick to a degree
20:59:06 * Sgeo wants the IRTC back
20:59:09 <ehird> I'd prefer subpixel ofc, but oh well
20:59:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could build your own
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # Bytecodes and subpixel hinting supports are patented
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # in United States; for safety, disable them while building
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # binaries, so that no risky code is distributed.
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # See http://freetype.org/patents.html
20:59:32 <AnMaster> enable_option FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING
20:59:32 <AnMaster> enable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER
20:59:32 <AnMaster> disable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING
21:00:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, well both me and ehird are in Europe, so we should be able to use it without issues
21:01:56 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and openoffice includes it's own copy of freetype iirc, so there it is harder to get good looking font
21:06:09 <AnMaster> ehird, now the word spacing that firefox uses isn't the best, but other than that this looks good on my monitor. Settings are tuned to look good on this TFT, which may not look very good on your. But at least I hope it is useful http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ
21:06:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that was a screenshot of http://www.freetype.org/patents.html
21:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also these two images: http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-nbci.png http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-bci.png
21:10:37 <AnMaster> one seems without hinting at all in fact. well not sure
21:11:02 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it also depends on font. I recommend you convert your OS X fonts and copy them over
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21:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, this seems relevant: http://www.beranger.org/index.php?page=3k&fullarticle=2150
21:24:23 <AnMaster> as well as the other links I pasted before you returned
21:24:33 <AnMaster> but your bouncer handles that iirc?
21:25:14 <ehird> [20:59] <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could build your own
21:25:28 <ehird> I will literally build my own
21:25:30 <ehird> when my OS is done
21:25:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it is simply a stupid "apple has patents in US" issue
21:25:54 <AnMaster> patents often cause problems for great linux stuff
21:25:56 <ehird> i hate software patents
21:26:15 <AnMaster> like that recent "apply kernel security patches without reboot" : scrapped due to MS patents covering it
21:26:20 <ehird> i can understand why a company would take them out in the current corporateosphere, but they shouldn't even exist
21:26:43 <ehird> http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ <-- the text here looks very thin
21:26:48 <ehird> almost as if some bit sare missing
21:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, well I found that readable on my screen, but it is pretty low DPI
21:27:23 <ehird> AnMaster: I have like 120dpi or something ridiculous here
21:27:25 <ehird> also, that bci.png...
21:27:29 <ehird> the text isn't even antialiased...
21:27:37 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc I have around 100 DPI
21:27:51 <AnMaster> ehird, and yeah, no clue about that, the original page didn't exist
21:27:51 <ehird> more than most people
21:28:05 <AnMaster> ehird, actually 98 DPI I think
21:28:27 <AnMaster> anyway I *do* use the byte code interpreter
21:28:40 <AnMaster> because without it, yeah awful
21:29:36 <ehird> http://macprolinux.blogspot.com/2008/04/fan-control-python-script-for-8-core.html hmm
21:29:48 <AnMaster> ehird, also there is a lack of free fonts yes, at least you can get some "not as bad as bitmapped helvetica" by getting ms corefonts (yes this means MS fonts, but trust me, bitmapped helvetica or courier is worse)
21:30:03 <ehird> I'll probably just nick Helvetica from os x or something
21:30:16 <ehird> since non-os x helveticas are worse, as a rule
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21:30:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to convert .dfont -> .ttf
21:30:45 <ehird> I know, I used it to give some fonts to you
21:31:06 <ehird> psygnisfive: I agree, but keep the flamebait down, I'm installing linux to see how it's progressed
21:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird, normally I tend to use bitstream vera sans mono since I think that variable width sucks for programming
21:31:20 <ehird> I use Monaco for programming
21:31:22 <psygnisfive> ive heard good things about the new ubuntus
21:31:23 <AnMaster> and for writing documents: LaTeX
21:31:45 <ehird> computer modern is rather unmonospaced.
21:31:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: I'm using kubuntu with the new kde 4.2
21:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I said for writing documents
21:32:01 <ehird> it's pretty, at least
21:32:16 <ehird> he would, he's a free culture weenie
21:32:24 <psygnisfive> ive got no idea what makes kubuntu k-ified
21:32:38 <ehird> kubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + kde
21:33:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and there is a outline version, type1 iirc: Latin Modern
21:33:20 <AnMaster> ehird, hm btw is kubuntu KDE 4?
21:33:35 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, kde 4.1, but I added the -proposed repository to upgrade to kde 4.2
21:33:41 <ehird> 4.2 is much nicer than 4.1
21:33:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, I'm still on KDE 3.5.x
21:33:51 <ehird> and blows 4.0 out of the water, although I only have ais523's anecdotes about 4.0 to go on
21:33:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd say 4.2 is a definite improvemen
21:34:05 <ehird> they've nicked quite a lot from os x :P
21:34:19 <ehird> psygnisfive: they don't exist because blackbox and enlightenment are both crap
21:34:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still"
21:34:39 <ehird> AnMaster: kde 4.2 just came out like last month.
21:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, quote from memory, comment about KDE 4.2-alpha
21:34:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: LOL, no, if you want extreme minimalism try dwm
21:35:01 <ehird> AnMaster: no, final
21:35:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: google it, foo
21:35:15 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still"
21:35:31 <AnMaster> it was about 4.2-(pre|beta|alpha|whatever)
21:35:43 <ehird> gentoo devs tend to be a bit ridiculous in my experience
21:35:48 <ehird> (i.e.: biased and irritating)
21:36:16 <ehird> ion is lol, the author is a douchebag
21:36:27 <ehird> "I'm switching to windows and releasing ion as closed source in future!" "Err, disregard that"
21:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well I really haven't had much to do with them, yeah I know there has been some internal fights stuff, but how do you know there haven't been any internal fights at apple?
21:36:40 <AnMaster> and why do you care about that, as long as the product works
21:36:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't because I don't have contact with more than a few apple devs :P
21:36:53 <ehird> also, you used a gentoo dev as an authoritative opinion
21:36:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: no, the author of ion would never admit to sucking cocks.
21:37:02 <ehird> he's too self-centered. :P
21:37:17 <evenant> can there even be such thing as an authoritative opinion? :)
21:37:26 <ehird> evenant: duh, the government!
21:37:32 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I just told you what one of the kde maintainers said, he also said that gentoo would probably aim for KDE 4.3 heh
21:37:53 <psygnisfive> why do you dislike bbwm and enlightenment, ehird?
21:38:07 <ehird> enlightenment is just bloated and boring, + pointless eye candy
21:38:14 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have considered trying awesome wm if KDE 4.x doesn't improve
21:38:29 <ehird> blackbox is 99% "omg so 1337" and 1% actual usability.
21:38:38 <psygnisfive> right but what do you find bloated and pointless eye candy?
21:38:38 <ehird> "IF THE TEXT IS SMALLER IT'S MORE MINIMALIST"
21:38:43 <ehird> psygnisfive: have you _used_ e17?
21:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, xfce? (did I miss you passing over that?)
21:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right
21:38:51 <evenant> isn't that the point of linux? :P
21:38:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, you mean with features?
21:39:53 <AnMaster> ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter"
21:40:09 <psygnisfive> mm. you're right. im now reminded of the excessive silliness that people design for E themes
21:40:23 <AnMaster> one good thing: You could be sure it wasn't there, it wasn't like you could have missed it, too few options around for that...
21:40:29 <ehird> AnMaster: what context is this?
21:40:40 <psygnisfive> whenever i used enlightenment i used the very simple themes
21:40:43 <AnMaster> in kde if you couldn't find it you wouldn't know if it was hidden somewhere between all the other options
21:40:51 <AnMaster> ehird, gnome application printing dialog
21:40:57 <AnMaster> it is shared between gnome apps
21:41:04 <ehird> what are you replying to?
21:41:09 <ehird> something I said? what?
21:41:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right
21:41:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, oh, you mean with features?
21:41:17 <ehird> that makes no sense to me
21:41:18 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter"
21:41:25 <ehird> [21:41] <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right
21:41:26 <ehird> [21:41] <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, oh, you mean with features?
21:41:28 <ehird> could you rephrase your line there?
21:41:40 <oklopol> i think AnMaster was being perfectly clear
21:41:46 <AnMaster> ehird, basically I'm saying my main problem with gnome is that they seem to remove options all the time
21:41:55 <AnMaster> they are trying to make a fool proof GUI
21:41:59 <ehird> I'm all for removing features, but gnome is just run by idiots
21:42:08 <ehird> if you ever want to use gnome, use xfce instead
21:42:10 <oklopol> maybe you needed to not know know what you're talking about to get it.
21:42:12 <AnMaster> Gnome in 2020 will have two buttons
21:42:15 <ehird> it's exactly the same except it works.
21:42:30 <ehird> AnMaster: "Switch to xfce" "Turn off computer"
21:42:38 <ehird> they do the same, just one switches to xfce first
21:42:48 <ehird> and the other would switch to xfce after turning off your computer, but it can't do anything while it's off
21:43:06 -!- BeholMyGlory has joined.
21:43:30 <AnMaster> second prediction: In 2020 KDE will require 16 GB RAM. Firefox will require n + 25 GB RAM (where n is how much ram you have installed)
21:43:43 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe applesmc
21:44:05 <ehird> apple system management controller
21:44:09 <ehird> I don't know what the hell comes next
21:44:14 <AnMaster> I see. is that what handles the fan stuff?
21:44:39 * ehird growls at linux. It's interpreting mousewheel-left as right and vise versa. (This is annoying because the mighty mouse is one 3d ball, so when I scroll down I scroll right ever so slightly)
21:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that is probably in xorg.conf
21:45:11 <ehird> Section "InputDevice"
21:45:12 <ehird> Identifier "MightyMouse"
21:45:15 <ehird> Option "CorePointer"
21:45:17 <ehird> Option "Name" "Elliott Hird’s Mouse"
21:45:18 <ehird> Option "HWHEELRelativeAxisButtons" "7 6"
21:45:20 <ehird> Option "Buttons" "8"
21:45:23 <ehird> Guess I just have to swap them
21:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, worth a try, but I'm not sure
21:45:59 <AnMaster> that may swap up/down with left/right
21:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, if you have kernel sources: drivers/hwmon/applesmc.c
21:46:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well I'm feeling helpful today
21:47:10 <AnMaster> from a quick look at that file it handles fan and motion sensor
21:47:12 <ehird> (I bashed it hard yesterday by running into some metal head-on. Don't ask how. There's a bump there now.)
21:47:19 <ehird> also, that's good :P
21:47:23 <ehird> now how do I make it work I wonder...
21:47:29 <ehird> AnMaster: for controlling monitor brightness, I assume
21:47:48 <AnMaster> ehird, somewhere in /proc I would suspect, or /sys
21:47:55 <AnMaster> let me read a bit further in the file
21:48:08 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:48:29 -!- BeholMyGlory has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
21:49:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems to have stuff related to /dev
21:49:30 <AnMaster> only about halfway through the file
21:49:35 <ehird> how do you change keyboard layout in kde
21:49:37 <ehird> I can't type a bar
21:49:56 <AnMaster> ehird, in KDE 3 it is in the kcontrol thing
21:50:56 <ehird> You'd think this would work out of the box
21:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird, no I don't, I'm a realist
21:51:25 <ehird> it works in OS X, and I'm pretty sure it works in windows
21:51:26 <AnMaster> apple works out of box because they can ensure it does in advance
21:51:42 <ehird> but yes, apple gain a lot by relying on hardware
21:51:58 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, applesmc is controlled through sysfs
21:52:04 <ehird> sysfs = /sys, right?
21:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. However I'm not sure exactly which file because it depends on what PCI ID it shows up as I think
21:52:27 <AnMaster> if I understood the source correctly
21:52:32 <ehird> acpi pci platform scsi spi usb
21:52:34 <ehird> ieee1394 pci_express pnp serio ssb
21:52:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I might be wrong, I think pci and pci_express is handled similiary at this level
21:53:13 <ehird> nothing related that I can see
21:53:33 <AnMaster> ehird, find /sys -name '*applesmc*'
21:53:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not very used to kernel macors
21:53:50 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768
21:53:52 <ehird> /sys/bus/platform/devices/applesmc.768
21:53:53 <ehird> /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc
21:53:55 <ehird> /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc/applesmc.768
21:53:56 <ehird> /sys/module/applesmc
21:53:58 <ehird> /sys/module/applesmc/drivers/platform:applesmc
21:53:59 <ehird> /sys/module/input_polldev/holders/applesmc
21:54:01 <ehird> /sys/module/led_class/holders/applesmc
21:54:02 <ehird> gotta be one of them
21:54:04 <ehird> now to find out which
21:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. Did you try google btw?
21:54:38 <AnMaster> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacBookPro/SantaRosaFanControl
21:55:02 <AnMaster> it seems to have issues with applesmc too
21:55:12 <AnMaster> "One of these days I'll have time to dig into applesmc to understand how it works... "
21:55:30 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I never had issues like this when installing linux
21:55:50 <AnMaster> ehird, really? I never got a computer with linux pre-installed
21:56:14 <ehird> or received, or owned
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21:56:42 <AnMaster> ehird, the largest problem I ever had was with some old old "winmodem" back when I had dialup
21:56:58 <AnMaster> luckily I did find a driver in the end. But this was back on 2.4 kernels
21:57:06 <ehird> I hate winmodems so. much.
21:57:08 <AnMaster> since then it worked mostly painlessly
21:57:12 <ehird> I had a USB winmodem when I was with Tiscali
21:57:15 <ehird> bane of my existance
21:57:26 <ehird> I'm just gonig to leave the fan
21:57:28 <ehird> it's not harming anyone
21:57:46 <AnMaster> nvidia-drivers sometimes had issues with last kernel, however often easy to fix by selecting another version
21:57:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out).
21:57:57 <AnMaster> gentoo tends to make many versions available of nvidia-drivers
21:58:07 <AnMaster> [I] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers
21:58:08 <AnMaster> Available versions: 71.86.06!s 71.86.07!s ~71.86.08!s 96.43.07!s 96.43.09!s ~96.43.10!s 100.14.19!s 173.14.09!s ~173.14.12!s 173.14.15!s ~173.14.16!s ~177.80!s 177.82!s ~180.22!s ~180.27!s ~180.29!s {acpi custom-cflags gtk kernel_FreeBSD kernel_linux multilib userland_BSD}
21:58:08 <AnMaster> Installed versions: 177.82!s(14:49:55 01/31/09)(acpi gtk kernel_linux multilib -custom-cflags)
21:58:13 <ehird> My graphics driver in here is the propietary fglrx one, I think
21:58:40 <ehird> AnMaster: when I bought this mac you could only get nvidia with a mac pro, and it was more expensive
21:58:47 <ehird> this graphics card has served me fine, anyway
21:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I feel sorry for you to have ATI
21:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes right, but ATI tends to have issues on linux
21:59:13 <ehird> I haven't really has any issues
21:59:17 <AnMaster> even their own closed source ones
21:59:32 <AnMaster> sure so does nvidia, but they are at least less shitty
22:00:46 <AnMaster> ehird, this is sad, you get more useful hits when goolging for applesmc -ubuntu than for applesmc
22:01:15 <ehird> AnMaster: here's how my text rendering/etc currently looks:
22:01:16 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/trdxnd/snapshot1.png
22:01:20 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.mactel-linux.org/wiki/AppleSMC
22:01:27 <ehird> I've seen that page
22:01:30 <ehird> it isn't really helpful
22:01:35 <ehird> it's internals documentation
22:01:45 <ehird> yeah, filebin does that
22:02:11 <ehird> I'm wary to click on omploader links because it was originally designed as a shock site hoster
22:02:15 <AnMaster> ehird, atm my gimp seems broken, it says this when trying to open urls:
22:02:16 <AnMaster> Procedure 'gimp-file-load' has been called with value '(null)' for argument 'filename' (#2, type gchararray). This value is out of range.
22:02:49 <ehird> Q: What in the butt is Omploader?
22:02:51 <ehird> A: Omploader was originally crea
22:02:56 <ehird> Q: What in the butt is Omploader?
22:02:58 <ehird> A: Omploader was originally created to become the ultimate shock site hosting service b
22:03:11 <ehird> http://omploader.org/faq.xhtml
22:03:35 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway your screenshot definitely seems like the auto-hinter crap
22:03:44 <ehird> it looks decent though
22:04:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I think mine looks a bit better. Could be due to careful tuning for this monitor
22:04:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean apple can easily pre-tune since they know exactly what monitor will be used in most of the cases.
22:05:23 <AnMaster> oh and they have worked with this for ages. I mean apple used to be used in DTP a lot
22:05:36 <AnMaster> nowdays windows is probably used sometimes, but even so apple is still quite common there
22:05:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean I often wanted something like coloursync
22:06:05 <AnMaster> sure there is a few things like it, tinycms and such
22:06:07 <ehird> my OS will have perfect antialiasing. :-P
22:06:21 <ehird> also, perfect everything else.
22:06:23 <ehird> perfect pony providing.
22:06:31 <AnMaster> ehird, be prepared to pay apple then for the patent
22:06:44 <ehird> I'll just invent my own and be a hermit until I finish it
22:06:57 <AnMaster> ehird, with bytecode interpreter I can see no difference to rendering on a mac if I use the same font
22:07:10 <ehird> really? like your screenshot?
22:07:14 <ehird> that's way different to how a mac would do it
22:07:26 <ehird> mac text pretty much looks like printed text
22:07:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well that wasn't using the same font that would be found on a mac
22:07:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I have dejavu on my mac
22:08:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also I don't like how a mac does it so I changed a bit from that. + firefox isn't the best to handle spacing
22:08:23 <ehird> I'm using arora browser
22:08:33 <AnMaster> but I mean for hinting and such
22:09:06 <AnMaster> ehird, idea for future X extension: XTeX
22:09:13 <AnMaster> renders on screen with tex in realtime
22:09:22 <AnMaster> to give you the best possible experience
22:09:36 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it sends it off to an automated professional printer
22:09:47 <ehird> and then automates scanning the result
22:09:50 <ehird> with a high-quality scanner
22:09:57 <AnMaster> ehird, with the microtype package?
22:10:03 <ehird> and maps its draft rendering to the scanned copy to smooth out edges and map up the text
22:10:56 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/microtype/microtype.pdf
22:11:13 <ehird> The application Konqueror (konqueror) crashed and caused the signal 11 (SIGSEGV).
22:11:15 <ehird> Please help us improve the software you use by filing a report at http://bugs.kde.org. Useful details include how to reproduce the error, documents that were loaded, etc.
22:11:24 <AnMaster> ehird, included by default in recent texlive
22:11:39 <ehird> want to summarize it because I can't open that?
22:11:52 <AnMaster> it has been something like 1.2 years since I last saw a KDE crash dialog for a KDE app
22:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway try firefox maybe?
22:12:24 <ehird> heh, kde 3.5 crashed all the time for me
22:12:27 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll try arora
22:12:38 <AnMaster> ehird, strange what is it with you and Linux...
22:13:11 <ehird> graaaah, I restarted my mouse and now it won't recognize it
22:13:22 <AnMaster> you are incompatible with whowever built the package
22:13:39 <AnMaster> I can disconnect and reconnect the mouse and it works perfectly
22:13:53 <AnMaster> don't have any bluetooth in this computer
22:15:21 <ehird> so, who wants to hear me rant about how computing sucks and my OS would fix everything?
22:15:34 -!- kar8nga has joined.
22:16:26 <ehird> you all do? awesome!
22:16:39 <AnMaster> ehird, unless it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: No thanks
22:16:54 <ehird> AnMaster: s/Haskell/Lisp/ and you got it
22:16:55 <AnMaster> if it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: Thanks, but no
22:17:11 <AnMaster> ehird, is there a fast forward option?
22:17:29 <ehird> at selected digressions.
22:18:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have two things to say: 1) Software patents blocked linux being great more than once. Fonts, hot patching kernel, colour management... and lots more 2) Apple know exactly what hardware their OS will run on. And they can afford patents. (In fact they own several).
22:19:14 <ehird> 1) agreed there, it's a shame
22:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, At least I don't need to reboot just because I updated itunes :D
22:19:29 <ehird> 2) i'm not happy with owning patents, but indeed knowing the hardware is very helpful
22:19:32 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, nor I
22:19:43 <ehird> you only need to boot up for core system updates, and firmware updatesss
22:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure I saw a mac reboot after an upgrade to it recently..
22:19:53 <ehird> sure, maybe QuickTime
22:19:59 <ehird> quicktime is heavily integrated into os x
22:20:06 <ehird> and is generally bundled with an itunes upgrade
22:20:14 <ehird> i.e. quicktime upgrade = itunes upgrade, but sometimes itunes upgrade without quicktime upgrade
22:20:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I upgraded from glibc 2.6 to 2.8 a few days ago. Recompiled binutils, libtool, gcc, gdb and valgrind after
22:20:27 <ehird> you can do that with os x too.
22:20:41 <ehird> well, you'd have to close all apps and reopen them entirely
22:20:49 <ehird> because just about all of them rely on the kind of stuff making you reboot
22:20:52 <AnMaster> and yes it is possible quicktime was upgraded
22:20:54 <ehird> at that point, might as well just reboot..
22:21:07 <AnMaster> ehird, um I haven't closed anything after that upgrade
22:21:15 <AnMaster> hey I even upgraded X without restarting it
22:21:31 <ehird> it's a different kind of thing, but w/e
22:22:11 <AnMaster> got "psychedelic colour" KDE. I think it managed to confuse Alpha channel or such
22:22:17 <AnMaster> restarting KDE helped that time
22:22:48 <ehird> rant mode turning on in 60 seconds... ^C to abort...
22:22:50 <AnMaster> like on all menus, just after the shortcut info...
22:23:05 <ehird> are you sure? ^C for yes, ^Z for no
22:23:12 <ehird> ** 40 seconds remaining *
22:23:16 <ehird> are you really sure?
22:23:27 <ehird> please use the correct key combinations
22:23:40 <ehird> ^Z for yes, ^C for no. ok, thanks for accepting my rants
22:23:44 <ehird> ** 25 seconds remaining **
22:23:56 <ehird> are you really sure?
22:24:04 <ehird> are you -- user entered too many keys at once. Returning to main loop.
22:24:08 <ehird> ** 10 seconds remaining *
22:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, then I'm going to /ignore
22:24:25 <ehird> ** BOOT UP COMPLETED *
22:24:56 <ehird> AWAITING FOR USER TO FORGET ABOUT IGNORING SYSTEM BEFORE CONTINUING.
22:25:45 <ehird> AnMaster: PROMPTING FOR CONFIRMATION OF FORGETTING [YN]
22:27:55 <ehird> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/19/quicken-online-cant-believe-mint-is-doing-so-well-sends-threatening-letter/
22:29:12 <ehird> AnMaster: am I on ignore?
22:30:18 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Hm ever considered that there is more than one type of ignore?
22:30:37 <ehird> [22:24] <AnMaster> ehird, then I'm going to /ignore
22:30:40 <ehird> that was qute specific
22:31:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well isn't that the command you use in your brain for mental ignore? If not get new cyborg implements(sp?)
22:31:23 <ehird> I'll wait for the singularity :P
22:32:00 <ehird> We've talked about it quite a bit in here.
22:32:01 <AnMaster> I do know what singularity is in math and in black holes, I don't know how it is related to this
22:32:01 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
22:32:29 <ehird> Also see http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html (despite obsolete marker, still worthwhile)
22:34:09 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you were an innocent bystander
22:36:37 <AnMaster> ehird, btw what do you think of cleartype style antialias
22:37:04 <AnMaster> on this screen it looks horrible
22:37:11 <ehird> AnMaster: cleartype is better than a lot of linux font rendering, but apart from that, it' scrapp
22:37:16 <ehird> agh keyboard laggy
22:37:39 <AnMaster> well I guess when I managed to cause swap trashing... it happened partly
22:38:14 <AnMaster> ehird, so how the heck did you manage to get your keyboard to lag
22:38:23 <AnMaster> also what made you install ubuntu
22:38:58 <ehird> AnMaster: wireless keyboard thats been trhashed over the years
22:39:17 <ehird> AnMaster: and, ais upgrading
22:40:06 <AnMaster> ah you wanted to try last version?
22:41:22 <ehird> it won't reconnect
22:42:53 <ehird> grah=gah + irritation
22:43:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also I never used bluetooth under linux (or any other OS) so afraid I can't help here
22:43:22 <AnMaster> I use a PS/2 keyboard in fact heh
22:43:53 <AnMaster> ehird, why replace it? if the keyboard works and is nice to type on
22:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I never replace stuff I don't need to replace
22:44:15 <ehird> Can't get device information: Host is down
22:44:42 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo hidd --connect 00:0A:95:4A:C6:08
22:44:44 <ehird> Can't get device information: Host is down
22:45:01 <AnMaster> like I used same mobile phone for like 5 years. Until recently my phone had black and white screen and like 3 lines of text
22:45:32 <ehird> [ 5250.154819] applesmc: 3 fans found.
22:45:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I have that many in my computer: CPU, GPU, PSU
22:46:24 * ehird feels back fan HOLY FUCK THAT'S HOT
22:46:50 <AnMaster> otherwise I'll find out what package it is
22:47:02 <AnMaster> ehird, finding out if you use dynamic cpu speed
22:47:33 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ cpufreq-info
22:47:34 <ehird> The program 'cpufreq-info' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
22:47:36 <ehird> sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils
22:47:37 <ehird> bash: cpufreq-info: command not found
22:47:39 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils
22:47:40 <ehird> i like that part of ubuntu
22:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well I guess you have like thousands of symlinks in /usr/bin from it...
22:48:13 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/YIUplv84.html
22:48:22 <AnMaster> ehird, to change you use cpufreq-set
22:48:33 <ehird> driver: acpi-cpufreq
22:48:35 <ehird> CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 0
22:48:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you will probably want to put it in some startup script
22:48:36 <ehird> hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz
22:48:38 <ehird> available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz
22:48:39 <ehird> available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance
22:48:41 <ehird> current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz.
22:48:42 <ehird> The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use
22:48:44 <ehird> within this range.
22:48:45 <ehird> current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz.
22:48:48 <ehird> driver: acpi-cpufreq
22:48:50 <ehird> CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 1
22:48:51 <ehird> hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz
22:48:54 <ehird> available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz
22:48:54 <ehird> available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance
22:48:57 <ehird> current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz.
22:48:58 <ehird> The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use
22:49:00 <ehird> within this range.
22:49:03 <ehird> current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz.
22:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it is currently at lowest speed
22:49:18 <AnMaster> ondemand makes it run faster when needed
22:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure why it is hot then
22:49:34 <ehird> keyboard is now connected, mouse is now laggy -_-
22:49:41 <ehird> goddamn, ubuntu. goddamn.
22:50:10 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway stuff like this tends to be not very well documented
22:50:27 <ehird> okay, all reconnected
22:50:33 <AnMaster> who produce drivers for whatever OS they suppor
22:50:46 <ehird> my os would fix this all :P
22:50:59 <AnMaster> ehird, running mac OS on a non-mac tends to be worse than linux on a mac
22:51:09 <ehird> osx86 has matured a lot
22:51:19 <ehird> I imagine OS X on a pc is less painful than this
22:51:36 <AnMaster> ehird, the hardware it works on is way more limited than the hardware linux works on
22:51:50 <AnMaster> point is, apple can fine tune for their hardware
22:52:00 <ehird> this is only the 50th time you have said this
22:52:04 <AnMaster> PC vendors can fine tune and/or write drivers for windows
22:52:15 <AnMaster> linux devs lack this possibility
22:52:16 <ehird> do you want to say it a few more times?
22:52:37 <AnMaster> unless you complain about linux again :P
22:53:01 <ehird> I'm not complaining about linux, just my situation with linux
22:53:07 <AnMaster> anyway fan and ACPI stuff can usually be made to work
22:53:31 <AnMaster> hey I remember back on linux 2.6.8 or so, it used to kernel panic if I rebooted by USB printer
22:53:58 <ehird> oklopol: do you want to hear my OS rants?
22:54:02 <AnMaster> back when men were real men...
22:54:06 <ehird> they're insightful, I swear.
22:54:10 <ehird> AnMaster: what year was that
22:54:34 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure... but it was on opensuse
22:55:05 <ehird> i first used linux in 2004 I think
22:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and I remember compiling a custom 2.4 kernel and fighting to death with lilo
22:55:14 <ehird> didn't work with my modem so I gave up
22:55:18 <ehird> I think I got it working circa 2006
22:55:40 <AnMaster> first time I used was back with red hat 5.x iirc
22:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I did this in Connitx VirtualPC on a 300 MHz ibook (first model)
22:56:11 <ehird> DOES NOBODY WANT TO ENTERTAIN MY NOTIONS ;_;
22:56:23 <AnMaster> didn't have enough disk space to install anything but a very basic system
22:57:11 <ehird> system 7 was quite nice
22:57:19 <ehird> i've only used it like once or twice
22:57:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes except when macbug opened
22:57:25 <ehird> yeah, nice when it worked :P
22:58:00 <AnMaster> ehird, and no silly eye candy like windows going down into the dock like they were drawn down by a vacuum cleaner
22:58:08 <ehird> ugh, I hate that animation
22:58:15 <ehird> thankfully there isn't much else like it in os x
22:58:21 <AnMaster> if you didn't guess: I hate it too
22:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, it still wins the price for worst eye candy ever IMO
22:58:49 <ehird> I'll agree with that
22:58:52 <AnMaster> even compiz comes at second place after that
22:59:01 <AnMaster> and I really really really hate compiz
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22:59:21 <ehird> I think these fans are making the computer hotter.
22:59:27 <AnMaster> heck if I want to minimize a window I want to do it now, I don't want to wait for a bloody animation
22:59:42 <AnMaster> this is not a trial version after all
22:59:48 <AnMaster> why should I have to live with such stuff
23:00:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:00:03 <AnMaster> ehird, really how would the fans make it hotter!?
23:00:11 <ehird> AnMaster: the heat of their operation :-D
23:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it isn't offset by the fans?
23:00:39 <AnMaster> also um... haven't figured out how to turn them off yet?
23:00:41 <ehird> it's very hot, if the fans are _cooling_ it I want to know why it's so hot
23:00:55 <oerjan> nothing can be hot unless it's got fans, that's obvious
23:00:56 <ehird> yeah, it fails because I have no /etc/fancontrol
23:01:25 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you use pwmconfig to generate it
23:01:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:01:36 <AnMaster> ehird, man page agrees with me
23:01:50 <AnMaster> Since most of you are going to use pwmconfig(8) script, the config file syntax will be discussed last. First I'm going to describe the var-
23:01:50 <AnMaster> ious variables available for changing fancontrol's behaviour:
23:02:01 <ehird> /usr/sbin/pwmconfig: There are no pwm-capable sensor modules installed
23:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess your fan is controlled with ACPI then
23:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, fun thing is it detects some things to change fan speed and even where to read fan speed, but changing them actually doesn't do anything
23:04:11 <AnMaster> and looking at the mobo the fan isn't controllable
23:04:23 <ehird> hey oerjan, want to hear my ranting?
23:04:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it was constant speed under the preinstalled winxp too
23:04:59 <AnMaster> may find some way to read temp
23:05:09 <ehird> Use driver `i2c-i801' for device 0000:00:1f.3: Intel 82801G ICH7
23:05:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it may even be able to handle smc thing
23:05:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it prints lots of stuff
23:05:33 <AnMaster> ehird, see if it finds anything in the end
23:05:42 <ehird> Driver `coretemp' (should be inserted):
23:05:44 <ehird> Detects correctly:
23:05:45 <ehird> * Chip `Intel Core family thermal sensor' (confidence: 9)
23:05:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that allows reading temp from cpu
23:06:11 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe coretemp
23:06:12 <AnMaster> some intel core* had broken temp sensors
23:06:23 <AnMaster> ehird, um didn't it print more
23:06:36 <AnMaster> ehird, did it tell you to edit some file?
23:06:51 <ehird> just /etc/modules to add coretemp
23:07:08 <AnMaster> hopefully that will print something like temp
23:07:13 <ehird> it has the applesmc stuff
23:07:26 <AnMaster> ehird, not fan control yet, but you can see temp now
23:07:27 <ehird> temperature for both around 35C
23:07:36 <ehird> ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error
23:07:37 * oerjan notes (again) that irssi doesn't mark lines containing my nick without a : after
23:07:39 <ehird> prints the same for 5 and 9
23:07:45 <ehird> AnMaster: it is normal
23:07:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error <-- weird yeah
23:07:55 <AnMaster> ehird, my CPU is 29 C atm though
23:07:58 <ehird> I dunno what they are though
23:08:03 <ehird> they don't seem to be the cpu
23:08:15 <ehird> AnMaster: my CPU is more powerful :P
23:08:40 <AnMaster> ehird, on PCs you can usually do like "go into bios, check temp, write down what each one is", go into linux, compare temps and find out which one maps to what
23:08:44 <AnMaster> however that would be hard on macs
23:08:52 <ehird> okay, so I have temperature measures
23:08:54 <ehird> no auto fan control thouh
23:09:10 * AnMaster is searching gentoo packages for "apple" and "fan" atm
23:09:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: wouldn't that tend to find a lot of cursing?
23:09:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, pun detected but not understood
23:10:16 <oerjan> "damn apple fans" and such
23:10:40 <ehird> it's not a linux system if you don't have SBCL!
23:10:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, package database, as in searching portage
23:10:51 <AnMaster> [N] app-cdr/gcdemu (1.0.0): gCDEmu is a GNOME applet for controlling CDEmu daemon
23:10:51 <AnMaster> [N] app-i18n/imhangul-status-applet (~0.3-r1): Status Applet for imhangul
23:10:51 <AnMaster> [N] app-laptop/gkrellm-pmu (--): GKrellM2 plugin for battery display on Apple machines
23:11:26 <ehird> * (* 29834923847239472934783947239842 198438712364872634872347682637482163478)
23:11:27 <ehird> 5920403871750233040095493286841638728722288213740963433203084718890476
23:11:31 <oerjan> if it can do regexes, try apple\> or whatever
23:11:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, what regex dialect would that be
23:12:31 <AnMaster> actually I would need PCRE here
23:12:41 <AnMaster> but this seems like POSIX regex
23:13:08 <oerjan> perl doesn't have an end-of-word marker?
23:13:58 <oerjan> i thought POSIX was similar to vim anyhow, at least more than to perl
23:14:17 <AnMaster> eix -cS apple | pcregrep -i 'apple(?!t)' | grep --color=yes -i apple
23:15:16 <oerjan> ok \> is definitely grep too
23:16:03 <oerjan> so eix -cS apple | grep --color=yes -i 'apple\>'
23:17:12 <oerjan> well unless you insist on allowing letters other than t
23:18:04 <ehird> Linux fhtagn 2.6.27-7-generic #1 SMP Tue Nov 4 19:33:06 UTC 2008 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:19:06 <AnMaster> ehird, this applesmc driver is unusually badly documented
23:19:24 <ehird> filename: /lib/modules/2.6.27-7-generic/kernel/drivers/hwmon/applesmc.ko
23:19:27 <ehird> description: Apple SMC
23:19:28 <ehird> author: Nicolas Boichat
23:19:30 <ehird> srcversion: 25CB42F01F4B61FD05EC33F
23:19:31 <ehird> depends: led-class,input-polldev
23:19:33 <ehird> vermagic: 2.6.27-7-generic SMP mod_unload modversions
23:19:44 <AnMaster> ehird, sometimes it has stuff like:
23:19:49 <AnMaster> parm: scatter_elem_sz:scatter gather element size (default: max(SG_SCATTER_SZ, PAGE_SIZE)) (int)
23:19:49 <AnMaster> parm: def_reserved_size:size of buffer reserved for each fd (int)
23:19:49 <AnMaster> parm: allow_dio:allow direct I/O (default: 0 (disallow)) (int)
23:20:09 <AnMaster> like for the nfs module, what ports to use
23:21:02 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, did you poke around in sysfs
23:21:10 <AnMaster> possible the same directory or the one just above
23:21:19 <ehird> mm, I've poked around
23:21:20 <ehird> not much unfortunatel
23:21:55 <AnMaster> ehird, anything in /proc/sys about fan?
23:22:15 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name apple
23:22:16 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name fan
23:22:18 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$
23:22:34 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the stuff for fan should be in sysfs
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23:23:00 <AnMaster> ehird, just this file is using so many macros I'm not sure how it works
23:23:51 <ehird> I doubt it's worth bothering
23:23:52 <AnMaster> ehird, find /sys -name '*fan*_safe*'
23:24:06 <AnMaster> I believe it will be stuff like fan1_safe
23:24:13 <AnMaster> and in the same directory there should be other control files
23:24:15 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan3_safe
23:24:16 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan2_safe
23:24:18 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan1_safe
23:24:30 <ehird> AnMaster: i did find /sys applesmc yknow
23:24:34 <ehird> didn't you read the output? :P
23:24:35 <AnMaster> ehird, in that directory there will be other fan[1-3]_*
23:24:37 <ehird> also yes, a lot of stuff
23:24:48 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/O7ipKO59.html
23:25:16 <AnMaster> replace the ##offset## bit I mean
23:25:25 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768$ cat fan{1,2,3}_{min,max}
23:25:37 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe lower the minimum will help
23:25:45 <ehird> I'm not sure I want to mess around with that
23:25:51 <ehird> as far as I can tell, these fans are on one setting
23:26:42 <ehird> so only fan3 is more than a tiny bit above default
23:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, let me check how that works
23:26:52 <ehird> those are fanN_input
23:27:28 <AnMaster> #define FANS_MANUAL "FS! " /* r-w ui16 */
23:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, very poorly documented this...
23:28:12 <oklopol> guys. is it just me or are you being really boring?
23:28:24 <ehird> oklopol: shall I RANT ABOUT OSES?!?!?!?!
23:28:45 <oklopol> i'd love to see rant about oses
23:28:50 <oklopol> just not specific instances of oses
23:28:57 <ehird> it's a rant in general
23:29:00 <ehird> and also crazy ideas I have
23:29:06 <ehird> (I can't type a bar)
23:29:23 <ehird> mine are better you should listen to them.
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23:30:00 <oklopol> my ideas are sexually meaningful.
23:30:06 <ehird> oklopol: mine also.
23:30:11 <ehird> AnMaster: one just after g5
23:30:16 <ehird> september 2006 intel core 2 duo
23:30:18 <oklopol> are yours gradually approachable?
23:30:24 <ehird> AnMaster: erm, imac core 2 duo
23:30:28 <ehird> also gradually unapproachable.
23:30:34 <ehird> they get more and more taboo. it ends with child rape.
23:30:46 <oklopol> you can only gradually approach that which is close to what you already know.
23:30:54 <oklopol> and mine are lightyears ahead.
23:30:57 <ehird> oklopol: i invented a new type of gradual approaching.
23:31:08 <oklopol> well that does sound kinda serious.
23:31:08 <ehird> it involves making bad analogies to current systems, then outright explaining the radical ideas
23:31:12 <ehird> your brain goes into shock and then absorbs it.
23:31:43 <ehird> 4 orchard terrace, hexham, northumberland, united kingdom, ne46 3pw
23:31:47 <ehird> (yes that's my real address)
23:32:42 <oklopol> so sounds plausible it'd be correct
23:32:47 <oklopol> then again you probably know what i know.
23:33:09 <oklopol> because you're the only source for that type of data.
23:33:52 <ehird> adjusting keyboard layout
23:34:13 <ehird> so oklopol can I explain my os-ly ideas
23:34:15 <AnMaster> oh I guess it is different for ubuntu, probably has some fancy place to do it
23:34:20 <ehird> AnMaster: no, just kde
23:34:44 <ehird> if I'm at the console my objective is to escape it asap
23:34:49 <ehird> probably I broke X
23:34:51 <oklopol> okay funniest thing in at least 10 minutes
23:34:57 <oklopol> "ehird: I CAN'T SHIFT" <<< thought you said "SHIT"
23:35:01 <oklopol> it was funny with the smileys.
23:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, did you try looking for some apple irc channel?
23:35:21 <ehird> AnMaster: sure, but not linux+mac
23:35:30 <oklopol> ehird: you can explain sure.
23:35:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I heard there was one called #esoteric or something..
23:35:55 <ehird> oklopol: okay so before I start, I have to explainerate the context of this OS
23:36:08 <oklopol> well sure explainerate through it.
23:36:26 <ehird> basically, a simple bootloader and system setup sort of stuff in asm, then it runs a lisp compiler like sbcl and compiles the rest of the kernel & os on the fly
23:36:28 <AnMaster> how fun, I google for linux fancontrol imac intel'
23:36:34 <ehird> this has the effect that the rest of the OS is written in lisp
23:36:38 <AnMaster> and the first hit doesn't have "linux" on it
23:36:40 <ehird> and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime
23:36:53 <ehird> (you can't modify the asm part but that's just a tiny part, only for bootup)
23:36:59 <AnMaster> <ehird> and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime <-- you mean hot patch kernel at runtime
23:37:09 <AnMaster> that is what prevented it for linux
23:37:13 <ehird> it's been done before MS did it
23:37:27 <ehird> if they sue me 1) i'm a minor 2) that patent would be struck down almost certainly
23:37:50 <ehird> oklopol: so, not only do we have lisp (awesome) we have an OS that you can hack random stuff in oko-style just like that
23:37:57 <ehird> pretty good basis if I do say so myself
23:38:30 <ehird> Somehow I doubt there's going to be anything new with PLAN9 Unix.
23:38:32 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/
23:38:33 <ehird> I installed it once, nothing runs, nothing works, it's very cut down. I think it uses TWM, but with not even as much as Firefox existing, I'm unsure how useful it could be.
23:38:35 <ehird> ^^ please let that be sarcasm
23:38:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: so what exactly did they patent? the general concept of being able to change parts of the os at runtime?
23:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, http://lwn.net/Articles/280058/
23:39:06 <oklopol> what's the definition of hot-patching a kernel
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23:39:23 <AnMaster> oh and http://www.ksplice.com/
23:39:31 <ehird> AnMaster: that's a US-only patent right?
23:39:43 <ehird> then people in the US use the system at their own risk :P
23:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: software patents are invalid in europe
23:40:07 <ehird> due to recent court ruling
23:40:20 <AnMaster> but I'm sure MS and others will try to change that
23:40:32 <AnMaster> you can't be sure how long it will last
23:40:47 <ehird> anyway, yeah, the lisp isn't an interpreter, so it's fast enough for an OS,
23:40:50 <ehird> but it's more jit-style
23:40:52 <ehird> except ... more batch
23:41:01 <ehird> as in, it can recompile on the fly, but it doesn't do it every line of code
23:41:16 <ehird> AnMaster: the lisp in my os
23:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird, how will you manage to avoid some low level asm?
23:41:36 <ehird> no, there will be some asm
23:41:40 <ehird> for the initial bootup and really low level stuff
23:41:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that can be changed on fly?
23:41:51 <ehird> no, unfortunately not
23:41:56 <ehird> but the compiler will probably have inline asm
23:42:08 <ehird> AnMaster: because modifying bootup stuff is useless
23:42:12 <ehird> you have to reboot to run it anyway
23:42:14 <AnMaster> ehird, also have you looked at QNX?
23:42:30 <ehird> but anyway, a lot of the stuff you might think needs asm might not
23:42:32 <ehird> due to inline asm in the lisp
23:42:36 <ehird> (and ofc you could modify that)
23:42:37 <oklopol> does that patent only apply to computers?
23:42:39 <AnMaster> but pretty sure it is open/shared source atm
23:43:12 <ehird> ok, heretical idea #2:
23:43:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, What you just said sounded very interesting but I'm not sure where you can take that
23:43:23 <oklopol> anyway you can't patent that. while it may not be true, it's a fact.
23:43:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i was just wondering what exactly it is they patented
23:43:51 <ehird> AnMaster: the lisp-recompilingy thingy u pthere
23:43:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, ask a lawyer, no one else can read the text
23:44:41 <ehird> orthogonal persistence. this is, very simply, persistence of memory to disk. To quote Torsion's readme: (torsion was an experimental OS implementing orthogonal persistence:)
23:44:42 <oklopol> and how can you invent hot-patching, not doing hot-patching is not theoretically meaningful, it's just a performance optimization.
23:44:42 <ehird> What this means is that you can write a valueto anywhere in memory, [...], trip over the power cable, and then on the next boot that value
23:44:44 <ehird> will still be exactly where you set it in memory. What's more, you can
23:44:45 <ehird> malloc() a chunk of memory, and on the next boot it will remain allocated.
23:45:07 <ehird> so, after a memory-changing operation is performed, it works immediately, after a tiny delay, it's written to disk
23:45:17 <ehird> the same is done for computations: so you can be in the middle of an intensive 3d render
23:45:21 <ehird> **trip over power cable**
23:45:24 <ehird> it resumes like nothing happened
23:45:29 <AnMaster> ehird, that would probably have performance issues due to the speed diff between ram and disk
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23:45:34 <ehird> AnMaster: that's why you wait a bita
23:45:37 <ehird> and do it in another thread
23:45:49 <ehird> all operations just go to RAM, the disk stuff just runs in the background at oppertune times
23:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, to make that useful you would need some sort of transactional stuff
23:46:05 <ehird> AnMaster: not quite
23:46:13 <ehird> there are ways to do it, but too boring/long to explain here
23:46:19 <AnMaster> ehird, otherwise this will cause everything to break at crash really
23:46:26 <ehird> there are implementations that work
23:46:31 <ehird> you just don't have enough of an imagination :)
23:46:37 <oklopol> ehird: while no current os may support those, they aren't exactly very interesting. you're just removing limitations that shouldn't be there in the first place.
23:46:42 <ehird> http://torsion.org
23:46:44 <ehird> oklopol: those come later
23:46:48 <ehird> I'm going more heretical as it goes on
23:46:49 <AnMaster> since I have not enough of an imagination to know what to google for
23:46:54 <ehird> anyway, so, orthogonal persistence: it's possible, it's been done for quite a long time, and it means just saying no to data loss & computation loss
23:47:27 <ehird> this means you can COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH THE FILESYSTEM. Just use memory. One address space. Clean, logical, simple, efficient. Instead of the monocultured interface of the FS, data can be presented in various ways according to its type and the best representation.
23:47:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://torsion.org <-- any introduction? Like readme or whatever. the docs seems like doxygen api docs
23:47:35 <ehird> *AnMaster explodes*
23:47:41 <ehird> AnMaster: nope. it's dormant. read the code.
23:48:17 <oklopol> ehird: so stuff to memory persistently all the time, is it a log-structured fs or something?
23:48:19 <ehird> so, heretical ideas: 1) runtime-modifiable lisp OS 2) orthogonal persistence 2a) no FS -- just use orthogonal persistence
23:48:34 <ehird> oklopol: you pretty much just mirror the memory to disk
23:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, fun fact about this: memory leaks persist until you free them by hand
23:48:59 <oklopol> 2a is a bit more heretical, but it's still something i can't imagine anyone *not* having in an os, file systems make absolutely no sense.
23:49:15 <ehird> oklopol: i totally agree
23:49:21 <ehird> OSes today are just crap
23:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, which is hard since you don't know where they are
23:49:28 <ehird> this stuff is pretty obvious
23:49:36 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i've said that before and you've laughed at my weirdness
23:49:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to somehow handle memory leaks
23:49:41 <ehird> AnMaster: you can use regular tools like valgrind
23:49:48 <ehird> plus, most stuff should be written using a high level language
23:49:52 <ehird> like, y'know, the lisp :P
23:50:00 <ehird> for legacy C programs, wrap a gc or whatever around them.
23:50:23 <ehird> but I'm mostly unconcerned about backwards compatibility; that just leads to cruft
23:50:28 <AnMaster> ehird, how could you garbage collect the lisp, you would need to mark the persistent object to not GC or such
23:50:41 <ehird> AnMaster: sure, you mark documents you want as kept
23:50:48 <ehird> it's just a few trix
23:50:51 <oklopol> oklopol's useful tip #1: forget legacy code, being backwards-compatible is for monkeys
23:50:56 <AnMaster> ehird, then it isn't full orthogonal persistence for everything?
23:51:06 <ehird> oklopol: i have some actually heretical ideas, but OSes today are so ridiculously behind that you have to go gradually
23:51:19 <ehird> i pretty much plan to implement the should-already-exist heretical ones, then experiment further with the more heretical ones
23:51:33 <ehird> but for your avg linux user, 1-2a are already pretty wtfy
23:51:40 * AnMaster ponders real word reference counting garbage collection
23:51:54 <ehird> AnMaster: reminds me of my tiny url garbage collector
23:52:04 <AnMaster> or why is everyone trying to get referenced in papers and such
23:52:09 <ehird> you scan all atoms in the universe for references to the URL, encrypted in any way shape or form
23:52:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: you mean like ppl coming to your house and observing what you're using and what not, and taking away the stuff that you don't?
23:52:13 <ehird> if there's none, remove the URL.
23:52:19 <AnMaster> and scientific papers wants to get referenced by other papers
23:52:25 <AnMaster> to not become garbage collected
23:52:59 <ehird> oklopol: wanna share some of your ideas? i've probably heard of them but i'm intrigued
23:53:05 <AnMaster> more people know about you = less risk of being collected by the ninja garbage collectors
23:53:14 <ehird> i love ninjas. sexually.
23:53:17 <oklopol> ehird: well actually to be clear i don't consider 1 a feature every os should absolutely have :P
23:53:25 <ehird> oklopol: you're wrong :D
23:53:42 <ehird> AnMaster: yes. they're purely functional, you must understand.
23:53:47 <ehird> no unneccessary objects on them.
23:53:47 <AnMaster> oh no I think ehird's brain exploded
23:54:11 <ehird> oklopol: in fact, my features are only a small step to be considered "decent" by me. i have a very high standard of "decent", "good" is near impossible :P
23:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I think in real world, for things to be useful, certain things need to be "weakrefs"
23:55:21 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, this is all details
23:55:23 <AnMaster> or you would only keep the worst
23:55:25 <ehird> the basic idea is what matters
23:55:39 <oklopol> ehird: my ideas are pretty simple, i just want everything to use a unified very dynamic object type. webpages containing pictures actually being just a list of picture objects on a remote site (which you cannot in general detect) and all that. type conversion being a very fundamental concept in the os, for "different formats", that is different implementations of the same concept.
23:55:40 <AnMaster> would never be garbage collected
23:55:54 <ehird> oklopol: right, that's more higher level than I've been talkin' about
23:56:04 <oklopol> ehird: yes, but i'm a nutcase
23:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, btw you shouldn't use a refcount GC
23:56:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I read some article by jwz complaining about current GCs, but he didn't explain what a good one actually was
23:57:00 <oklopol> always complaining about gc
23:57:23 <oklopol> well when did you mean it?
23:57:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I recall around jan 08 you said that all gcs suck, and you should do it the "proper way" (malloc/free)
23:57:26 <AnMaster> I mean jwz as in the well known programmer jwz
23:57:31 <ehird> also you were basing this entirely on experience with java
23:57:37 <ehird> the channel had quite a laugh...
23:57:47 <ehird> AnMaster: stop ruining his pun :
23:58:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I still think bohem-gc isn't a very good GC, but I'm interested in seeing a good one
23:58:13 <ehird> take a look at the sbcl gc, cheney on the mta, Factor's gc
23:58:16 <AnMaster> this is because bohem-gc managed to cause memory corruption
23:58:18 <oklopol> who cares as long as it's asymptotically optimal :o
23:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster: boehm has issues because it's in C
23:58:43 <oerjan> the bohemes never got rid of their garbage
23:58:50 <oklopol> i would probably enjoy making a theoretical os for a turing machine more than an actual os.
23:58:50 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed. So why is the Python GC even worse
23:58:51 <ehird> you can only have conservative gc
23:58:55 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit").
23:58:57 <ehird> AnMaster: python is just not a very good impl
23:59:07 <ehird> oklopol: but imagine using your OS 4eva
23:59:09 <ehird> AnMaster: those are just refcounting
23:59:10 <AnMaster> why doesn't someone replace them
23:59:11 <ehird> refcounting is shite
23:59:12 <oklopol> i hope i'm as crazy as i am now when i grow up and know all kindsa awesome shit.
23:59:15 <ehird> and because nobody cares enough
23:59:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I agree. So what I want is an introduction to GOOD GCs.
23:59:49 <ehird> the people who would write such things are busy making money off language impls :P
23:59:49 <oklopol> ehird: well my dream is to make the perfect os, and use it alone because no one else is willing to start over :D
23:59:57 <oklopol> (and also because i'm not going to advertise it)