00:00:01 <ehird> oklopol: my dream is to make a modern lisp machine
00:00:06 <ehird> and use my OS on it
00:00:12 <ehird> my own freaking hardware RUNNING LISP.
00:00:29 <ehird> AnMaster: well, fabricating silicon costs millions :p
00:00:34 <ehird> so I'd sell it for millions!
00:00:46 <oklopol> oerjan: you're back? either i missed that, or i imagined your departure.
00:00:55 <ehird> he came back like 30m ago
00:01:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe you need to visit a doctor if you are imagining things?
00:01:28 <oklopol> okay, guess there's no use seeing what he answered to my message then.
00:01:46 <oerjan> that may be for the best.
00:01:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, there was no message. The message was a lie.
00:01:54 <ehird> oklopol do you have a 64 bit cpu
00:02:04 <oklopol> at least i don't think so...
00:02:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, it was chocolate
00:02:12 <ehird> okay my OS will support 32-bit then so you can use it :-P
00:02:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, the message was a chocolate?
00:02:28 <ehird> i was planning only to support x86_64
00:02:32 <ehird> and have no 32-bit compatibility mode.
00:02:33 <oerjan> chocolate messages are the best
00:03:35 <ehird> the window dec & shadow of this kde looks like vista on unfocused windows
00:03:44 <ehird> i notice the weirdest things.
00:04:12 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly extra themes may be a separate package
00:04:34 <ehird> the shadow just vaguely looks like vista under certain conditions
00:04:36 <AnMaster> ehird, "looks like vista" "it looks nice"
00:04:44 <ehird> "shadow looks like vista"
00:04:49 <ehird> also, vista isn't too ugly.
00:05:10 <AnMaster> ehird, win2000 beats all of them
00:05:46 <ehird> SYMBOLICS GENERA FTW
00:06:08 <ehird> i so want to splash out $3500 on a lisp machine :-(
00:06:16 <ehird> well, + plane fee to avoid absurd shipping costs
00:06:22 <oklopol> ehird: yay thank you. except now i need to use it.
00:06:35 <oerjan> water color painting beats them all!
00:06:42 <oklopol> "so oklo, i wrote these 30000 lines of compatibility code for your 32-bit"
00:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, wow: http://symbolics.com/
00:06:54 <ehird> AnMaster: what about it?
00:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you can still get it :)
00:07:07 <ehird> they're not making any new ones
00:07:19 <ehird> it's just a lifeless shell of a company
00:07:24 <ehird> but they'll still give you a lisp machine on request
00:07:36 <AnMaster> ehird, really? they have some left in stock?
00:07:53 <ehird> $3500 for the top of the line one
00:07:58 <ehird> + insanely high shipping costs
00:08:09 <ehird> finding the price list
00:08:11 <AnMaster> but question is, do they make new ones
00:08:19 <ehird> I don't think they have since the 80s
00:08:21 <AnMaster> or just sell out what is left of stock?
00:08:50 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
00:09:10 <ehird> the macivory stuff is a modified mac + lisp card
00:09:13 <ehird> less pure but cheaper
00:09:24 <ehird> you'd either want the XL120{0,1} or the 36xx
00:09:33 <ehird> the latter is $675
00:09:41 <ehird> which is surprisingly cheap
00:10:04 <ehird> that david k schmidt guy commented on an opengenera piratebay torrent
00:10:30 <ehird> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
00:10:31 <ehird> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
00:11:26 <oerjan> certainly you can. whether you may is a different matter.
00:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh where can I get opengenera?
00:11:53 <AnMaster> like do I need an ALPHA emulator or such?
00:11:57 <ehird> lemme find the bloggers post for you
00:12:03 <ehird> AnMaster: http://collison.ie/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines
00:12:09 <oerjan> unless you have accidentally got stuck on something, i guess.
00:12:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you need a separate lunix
00:12:29 <ehird> because genera writes over /etc/hosts
00:12:32 <ehird> AnMaster: linux :P
00:12:32 <oerjan> or even if you did it on purpose.
00:12:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well I could have it in a chroot yes
00:13:06 <oklopol> and most importantly, should i
00:13:07 <oerjan> oklopol: do i look like an oracle?
00:13:36 <ehird> quite slow last time I ran it
00:13:55 <ehird> the court is currently saying "yeah, go away prosecutors"
00:13:57 <AnMaster> do I dare use it atm? Probably not
00:13:59 <oerjan> i see. but not the future, alas.
00:14:02 <ehird> because their arguments are ridiculous
00:14:06 <ehird> AnMaster: they're not suing the users
00:14:07 <ehird> just the operators
00:14:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well who knows what will happen in the future
00:14:25 <AnMaster> last I looked it wasn't like that
00:14:30 <oklopol> oerjan => oreajn => oraejn => (rotate n into a c) oraejc => oracej => (straighten j and reverse the end) oracle
00:14:47 <ehird> AnMaster: the only thing in the logs will be you hitting TPB tracker
00:14:50 <ehird> since the rest is totally distributed
00:14:55 <oklopol> isn't that where you got your nick?
00:15:02 <ehird> and hitting a bittorrent tracker URL is hardly illegal
00:15:19 <oklopol> oerjan: oh, sorry, my mistake, i guess i'll have to listen to ehird then.
00:15:21 <ehird> unless you live in oceania
00:15:35 <AnMaster> "invalid response from tracker"
00:15:39 <oklopol> so i guess i'm stuck here forever.
00:15:41 <ehird> give it a few minutes
00:15:47 <oerjan> oklopol: beware of lying oracles.
00:15:50 <AnMaster> maybe I should try some other one
00:15:52 <ehird> should work in a bit
00:16:16 <ehird> servers are having a booboo?
00:16:24 <oklopol> oerjan: would an oracle lie just to be able to hint he did with a metaphor?
00:16:28 <oerjan> if you live in oceania, knowing that bittorrent trackers exist is illegal.
00:16:37 <AnMaster> ehird, as in timed out, error message, corrupt data, or what?
00:16:42 <ehird> AnMaster: who knows
00:17:04 <oerjan> oklopol: quite possibly
00:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, btw who is that "dkschmidt"?
00:17:32 <oklopol> oerjan: damn i was hoping for a metaphor :P
00:18:13 <oklopol> hmm. maybe i'll sleep anyway. play by my own rules.
00:18:17 <ehird> AnMaster: symbolics salesman
00:18:19 <ehird> same guy on symbolics.com
00:18:23 <ehird> and at the end of that price list
00:18:35 <AnMaster> ehird, in other words he doesn't care very much
00:18:51 <ehird> even if he really cares, he's taking advantage of the situation :P
00:19:36 <oerjan> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_proof_system
00:20:09 <AnMaster> udp://tracker.thepiratebay.org:80/announce == dead
00:20:41 <ehird> AnMaster: replace it with http
00:21:31 <AnMaster> it responds to ping6 but not ping
00:22:40 <AnMaster> maybe ktorrent can't handle ipv6
00:24:53 <ehird> holy fuck emacs fonts are huge
00:25:16 <AnMaster> ehird, change the terminal font then
00:25:34 <ehird> yeah it's just dpi problems
00:37:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MandelbrotOrbitInfimum.png omg ew ugly
00:41:05 <AnMaster> well let me check if dcc is setup
00:42:18 <AnMaster> ehird, try to dcc it now. hopefully it will work
00:42:23 <oerjan> more proof that the mandelbrot set is really a Great Old One...
00:42:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MandelbrotOrbitInfimum.png omg ew ugly <-- nice
00:42:47 <ehird> it makes me want to vomit
00:42:55 <ehird> file:///media/Macintosh HD/Users/ehird/Saved/2009-02/opengenera/opengenera2.tar.bz2
00:43:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well I would have used another colour scheme
00:43:34 <ehird> the belly button X_X
00:43:39 <ehird> AnMaster: yo I dcc'd
00:44:05 <ehird> agh, I guess firewall
00:44:33 <ehird> want a linksys pronto...
00:45:13 <AnMaster> <*status> DCC Xfer Bounce (ehird): Timeout waiting for incoming connection [192.168.0.64:60386]
00:45:27 <ehird> " Must be less than 50 megabytes"
00:47:22 <ehird> " Must be less than 50 megabytes"
00:53:14 <AnMaster> oh and the torrent seems to work in rtorrent
00:53:27 <AnMaster> so no need for your help it seems :)
00:57:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Boggle yer mind:
00:57:32 <ehird> >>> def two(): return 1. + (two()/2.)
00:57:35 <ehird> >>> two = recur_default(two, 10, 0)
00:57:37 <ehird> >>> two_ = use_rd(two)
00:57:41 <ehird> Also oklopol's mind.
00:57:49 <ehird> Finite infinite recursion!
00:58:17 <AnMaster> ehird, nice but what about about it
00:58:40 <ehird> AnMaster: well, can't you see? I wrote a function that calls itself infinite times
00:58:45 <ehird> then approximated its value
00:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, what is recur_default()?
00:59:36 <AnMaster> ehird, not making it public yet?
00:59:44 <AnMaster> tell me when you will make it public
00:59:51 <AnMaster> since I'm going to be in 5 minutes
01:00:43 <ehird> just need to iron out some creases
01:02:58 <ehird> specifically, a nicer call interface
01:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird, does this work for any infinite series?
01:03:24 <ehird> any infinite recursion
01:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, using much black magic?
01:03:48 <ehird> AnMaster: it basically just checks the callstack
01:03:50 <ehird> to see if you recurse
01:03:56 <ehird> if we've already recursed N times, return the default value
01:07:34 <AnMaster> ehird, pure python or using the C API?
01:07:43 <AnMaster> doing this with C API sounds trivial
01:08:03 <AnMaster> there is even stuff in the C API to detect if you recursed
01:08:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm how do you insert yourself in the call
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01:08:53 <AnMaster> I mean you need to replace the two() call with some custom routine
01:09:03 <ehird> >>> [two(limit=i) for i in range(0,10)]
01:09:05 <ehird> [1.0, 1.5, 1.75, 1.875, 1.9375, 1.96875, 1.984375, 1.9921875,1.99609375, 1.998046875]
01:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: the code + example: http://pastie.org/396402
01:09:28 <ehird> @@recur_default should be @recur_default
01:09:52 <ehird> btw, two() reaches 2.0 on my system at 53
01:09:55 <ehird> AnMaster: like foo=bar
01:11:05 <AnMaster> I need to read that when less sleepy
01:11:25 <ehird> change > new_func.limit to >= new_func.limit
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02:08:52 <Sgeo> "Note from Dr. ██████████: I believe I know where all our bandwidth is going at night. Agent ████'s computer privileges should be limited until he either finds a girlfriend or learns some self control."
02:09:13 <Sgeo> They're describing material on floppy disks of infinite capacity
02:09:21 <Sgeo> Why are they talking about bandwidth?
02:09:26 <Sgeo> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-335
02:23:37 <SimonRC> right, pizza-time, if they are still open at 02:22 am
02:25:29 * oerjan recalls this place that used to be open until 4 am in weekends. don't know if they still are.
02:36:17 <comex> like the instant computation machine that you have to keep plugged in for as long as the computation would take
02:36:27 <comex> a floppy disk of infinite capacity
02:36:57 <comex> in the category of a seemingly small flaw making the thing useless
02:38:57 <oerjan> hm but if it could be pre-initialized it could at least be used to solve NP-complete problems
02:40:56 <oerjan> i guess you would need the instant computation machine for that, though
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03:24:44 <Sgeo> Wait, by "instant computation machine", are you talking about my idea, or some SCP, or somethign else?
03:27:33 <oerjan> don't ask me, as comex
03:32:06 <comex> I think it was your and ehird's
03:33:03 <oerjan> that time travel thing?
03:40:14 * Sgeo loves http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/incident-239-b-clef-kondraki and would love it more if he was looking into the individual SCPs, probably
03:47:15 * Sgeo seriously lols at http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/supplemental-report-239-b-192
04:17:02 <SimonRC> right, after that distraction, really going for pizza
04:27:24 <Sgeo> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/experiment-log-447-a
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06:08:58 <GregorR> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/catastrophile2.png
06:20:27 <Slereah_> GregorR has boners for dead babies
06:22:14 * oerjan notes that the truck is disturbing all by itself
06:23:02 <oerjan> also, that catastrophile1.png is nonexistent
06:23:22 <GregorR> That's because it's catastrophile.png
06:23:50 <oerjan> why then does the error message say "moved or deleted". hmph.
06:24:30 <GregorR> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/catastrophile.png
06:25:04 <oerjan> if it never existed, that is.
06:25:17 <GregorR> * oerjan notes that the truck is disturbing all by itself
06:25:18 <olsner> ooh, that scp-wiki is awesome
06:25:39 <oerjan> also, i have no idea what that thing on the stairs is
06:26:40 <oerjan> which might explain why you didn't link it first. unless you have.
06:27:18 <GregorR> I linked catastrophile2.png first because I thought it was funnier :P
06:46:31 <GregorR> http://spamusement.com/forums/images/avatars/173094260849a0f4a14b025.gif
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07:16:14 <olsner> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-360 :)
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08:28:54 <oklopol> GregorR: is it okay i was desperately waiting for that gif truck to crash?
08:30:10 <oklopol> oh it crashes in the other
08:47:55 <oklopol> but not as cute as your precious numbers huh
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13:37:40 <AnMaster> btw how do you write hexdecimal integers in scheme?
13:38:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, as in (define foo 0x123)
13:39:01 <AnMaster> but that doesn't do what I wanted
13:39:03 <oklopol> if you mean having hex in the code, there's a whole well-written section about the numbers in r5rs.
13:39:22 <ais523> hmm... is it 16#123, or have I got the wrong language there?
13:39:26 <oklopol> try 123h, 123x, x123, h123
13:39:49 <AnMaster> ais523, which means it may be prolog too I gueszs
13:40:06 <oklopol> i recall b was used for binary, but i haven't really used numbers in scheme.
13:40:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, h prefix/suffix both says unbound variables
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13:43:29 <oklopol> then i've probably imagined it all.
13:49:26 <oklopol> # is used for all the stuff you can specify about a number
13:49:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, so what about other bases? like base 14?
13:49:26 <oklopol> you can't do that in a literal
13:49:26 <oklopol> also you can't do floating point in anything but decimal in scheme either iirc
13:49:26 <AnMaster> readline::81: read: expected `a' or `x' after #h
13:49:26 <oklopol> yeah stuff that isn't legal scheme often errors out
13:49:26 <AnMaster> but what is #ha supposed to me
13:49:26 <oklopol> #h is not specified by the standard
13:49:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, too lazy to search docs for what it does
13:51:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, too lazy to search mzscheme docs for what #hx/#ha means
13:54:10 <AnMaster> #hx starts a Honu expression; see Honu Parsing
13:54:10 <AnMaster> #hash starts a hash table; see Reading Hash Tables
13:54:44 <AnMaster> "Honu is a family of languages built on top of Scheme. Honu syntax resembles Java."
14:01:05 <AnMaster> ais523, which is the correct way to express "foo mmap()s blah blah" should one use "mmap()s" or "mmaps()"? Or maybe just "mmaps"?
14:03:03 <AnMaster> ais523, would it be "abort()'d" too?
14:03:11 <ais523> it's probably not correct English, but amongst programmers the habit is to write anything that has to be written literally literally
14:03:21 <AnMaster> also if you wish to refer to man page section, would you use: mmap(2)s ?
14:03:36 <ais523> I don't really think pluralising a man page makes sense
14:03:49 <AnMaster> ais523, hm it is a verb isn't it?
14:03:51 <oklopol> i always separate suffices with "'"
14:04:12 <oklopol> unless they are actual grammatical suffices
14:04:13 <AnMaster> someprogram mmap(2)s blah blah
14:08:00 <oklopol> someprogram cu me zoi py. mmap(2) py.
14:08:48 <AnMaster> anyway mmap() makes no sense in python, and you mentioned py twice on that line
14:20:43 <oklopol> i've probably been feeling sick all weekend *because i'm sick* :D
14:21:25 <oklopol> because i didn't realize it.
14:23:25 <oklopol> i feel like shit, and never for a minute stop to think why, i just quickly adapt myself to the situation and start doing things a bit differently, being under a blancket 24/7 etc
14:23:31 <oklopol> but i don't actually realize anything is wrong.
14:24:09 <oklopol> anyway should probably go to the shop, coke probably helps for flues.
14:27:16 <oklopol> ais523: the actual sickness isn't a ":D" or a ":(", because it's not bad enough anyway to actually hinder my studyings. i just find it funny how well i can ignore everything around me, including my body.
14:28:26 <oklopol> (also that "including my body" thing i said that way just so you could ask whether i actually don't consider my body a part of myself; i'm not sure why i assumed you would)
14:28:51 <ais523> your body may be a part of you the person
14:28:57 <ais523> it's nothing to do with oklopol the nick, though
14:29:04 <ais523> I only talk to your thoughts over IRC
14:29:09 <ais523> not the things that surround them
14:29:23 <oklopol> maybe you just talk to my fingers tho.
14:29:31 <oklopol> it's not like i actually actively control thhem
14:29:38 <oklopol> i just let them live on the kb
14:29:41 <ais523> I assume your fingers aren't intelligent enough to make sense without your brain sending them information somehow
14:30:14 <oklopol> well i do admit what i type does go through my brain, but i honestly cannot say which way the information goes.
14:30:50 <oklopol> i mean through introspection, i do know enough anatomy to assume it's brain->hands. but you never know
14:31:17 <oklopol> (err through introspection was part of the earlier sentence, then a full stop before "i do know...")
14:31:28 <oklopol> (nm i should probably do that shoppery)
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15:01:52 <ehird> 05:38:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, as in (define foo 0x123)
15:02:19 <ehird> oklopol: yeah I should have told him to read r5rs
15:02:23 <ehird> it's only like 30 pages
15:02:34 <ehird> overall linux summary: better than before, but still not impressed.
15:03:06 <ehird> also, don't use guile
15:03:07 <ais523> did you get it working?
15:03:11 <oklopol> seriously, i'm sick, this is so weird
15:03:12 <ehird> ais523: yes, I'm talking via it now
15:03:25 <ais523> did you get your wireless mouse/keyboard working?
15:03:58 <ehird> Yes, although it's stupid and forgets it on every bootup so I have to manually connect with a USB keyboard.
15:04:44 <ais523> I think your beliefs about Linux are about right, decent but not actually good, and getting better all the time
15:04:46 <AnMaster> is there no config file or such?
15:05:04 <ais523> it's certainly good enough for me to use as the basis of my primary OS, I think your standards are higher than mine though
15:05:20 <ehird> It's english-decent but not ehird-decent, I have a weird tounge.
15:05:21 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I never had issues like those ehird had under linux. What I have had issues with is ATI and way way back a winmodem
15:05:23 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it's utterly ignored
15:05:48 <ehird> ais523: font rendering sucks badly
15:06:02 <ais523> I like the font rendering, actually
15:06:07 <AnMaster> ehird, however I still don't see why anything but kernel upgrade would need reboot
15:06:08 <ais523> but we're probably looking for different things in it
15:06:17 <AnMaster> like quicktime, is it in kernel or what?
15:06:17 <ais523> AnMaster: turning off your laptop to take it home?
15:06:33 <ais523> that's by far the most common reason I reboot mine
15:06:35 <ehird> AnMaster: like 99% of apps, including the window manager etc, heavily use quicktime
15:06:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I was talking about upgrades, of course there could be reasons like you need to move or such
15:06:39 <ehird> so you hvae to restart them all anyway
15:06:56 <ehird> ais523: it's either too weedy, or so bulky you can see the oddly coloured subpixels
15:07:11 <ehird> right now I have subpixel rendering off, and hinting=slight
15:07:30 <ais523> ehird: ah, does your screen resolution match your screen's actual resolution?
15:07:44 <ais523> I'm using subpixel over here, and can't see the oddly coloured pixels
15:07:45 <AnMaster> ehird, 99.999% of the apps on my system are dynamically linked to glibc, exceptions are probably only: busybox (static), valgrind (own libc) and ldconfig (static)
15:07:47 <ehird> oh come on, don't ask trivial things like that
15:07:53 <ehird> ais523: so you have high hinting
15:07:55 <AnMaster> yet I upgraded glibc from 2.6 to 2.8 with KDE running
15:08:12 <AnMaster> works fine, had to rebuild valgrind and gdb but that was it
15:08:13 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah generally when you upgrade the intention is to USE THE UPGRADED THING
15:08:18 <ehird> maybe wacky linux people don't understand that notion
15:08:24 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do use it for like 50% of the apps by now
15:08:34 <ais523> subpixel with full hinting
15:08:42 <ehird> AnMaster: and OS X reboots fast enough that you could use 100% of them in about 15 seconds
15:08:51 <ehird> ais523: go to en.wikipedia.org
15:08:54 <ehird> isn't the text horribly thin?
15:08:57 <ehird> and klunked together
15:08:59 <ehird> that was my problem
15:08:59 <ais523> ehird: using which browser?
15:09:10 <ehird> Konqueror, and the default
15:09:20 <ehird> by the way, does Konversation show as kde3 for you?
15:09:31 <ais523> yes, there isn't a kde4 version yet
15:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, hm that depends, I have seen macs that take 2 minutes from sleep mode, though it was one that was set up to sync against some server at work.
15:09:37 <ais523> so it's not surprising they shipped the kde3 version
15:09:49 <ehird> AnMaster: "Example involving nothing to do with the actual reboot, this means the reboot is slow"
15:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, reboot takes like 10 minutes on it
15:10:13 <ehird> wow, you can make a system take ages to run if you do stupid shit that takes time!
15:10:17 <AnMaster> ehird: actually, around 1 minute to login screen, then 9 minutes after you hit login
15:10:19 <ehird> you've convinced me. os x sucks
15:10:23 <ais523> ehird: you're right, konqueror seems to screw up the kerning on wikipedia main page
15:10:30 <ehird> ais523: all subsequent pages, too
15:10:30 <ais523> firefox manages it fine, though
15:10:42 <ehird> let me try with Arora
15:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what I'm saying is that it depends on what you are doing.
15:10:49 <ais523> I suspect it's something to do with different defaults, rather than an intrinsic difference between the browsers
15:10:58 <ais523> or possibly GTK vs. Qt, but I think that's less likely
15:11:12 <ehird> AnMaster: your example is at best far out enough to be completely irrelevant; at worst having no relation whatsoever to the situation
15:11:16 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have a linux computer that boots in 16 seconds from you press the button, a Pentium 3 with 512 MB RAM
15:11:20 <ehird> huh, I lost like 10 options from system settings
15:11:24 <ehird> how did that happen
15:11:26 <ais523> what do you mean lost?
15:11:31 <ehird> they're not there in the oerview
15:11:33 <ehird> I may be imagining things
15:11:43 <ehird> ais523: what font dpi are you using?
15:11:53 <ehird> the text rendering
15:12:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen that on mac actually.. iirc bluetooth was suddenly gone from mouse settings...
15:12:02 <ais523> which set of rendering?
15:12:05 <ais523> I'm back on Gnome atm, btw
15:12:15 <ehird> gnome renders fonts differently.
15:12:23 <ais523> but I've set my default font to Sans 10
15:12:28 <AnMaster> ehird, gnome and kde use separate setting panels yes
15:12:34 <ais523> and most of the apps here are using that
15:12:35 <ehird> that is not what I said
15:12:38 <ehird> that was highly irrelevant
15:12:51 <ais523> AnMaster: it's me who's using Gnome
15:13:07 <ais523> so unless ehird's remote-desktoped into my computer, then he wouldn't care what's in my settings panel, probably
15:13:15 <ais523> and wouldn't be able to see it in any case without a screenshot
15:13:17 <ehird> if you see some ambiguity in what I'm saying and nobody else seems to, you porbably read it wrong
15:13:21 <ais523> and certainly wouldn't think it was his
15:13:32 <ehird> ais523: i'm actually behind you.
15:13:55 <ehird> I'm also invisible
15:14:02 <ais523> there's no sane way you could have got through the Door
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15:18:38 <AnMaster> ehird, did you manage to get the fonts to look good?
15:18:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Not yet.
15:18:50 <ehird> ais523: I was going to complain about something else. Let me think what it was...
15:19:02 <ehird> (BTW, a screenshot of the font rendering would be appreciated, I'm thinking I've missed some combination of settings)
15:19:09 <ais523> well, fonts are a legitimate complaint for someone who cares as much about fonts as you do
15:19:13 <AnMaster> btw, for me wikipedia main page doesn't look bad in konq (KDE 3.5.9)
15:19:15 <ais523> and I'm not sure what to screenshot
15:19:23 <ais523> AnMaster: does it mess up the kerning?
15:19:34 <ehird> ais523: an application? system prefs?
15:19:42 <AnMaster> ais523, not really, it uses Bitstream Verra Sans though
15:19:50 <ais523> ehird: in Gnome the system prefs are just choosing font and size
15:19:57 <ais523> it's gnome, would you expect it to have settings?
15:20:01 <ehird> er, there's an antialiasing setting too
15:20:06 <ehird> ais523: I meant KDE system preferences, anyway
15:20:15 <ais523> as for KDE settings, I'd have to boot into KDE and I mustn't here
15:20:27 <ehird> err, you just have to run the settings app
15:20:32 <ais523> there's a strange bug with volume which means it blares out the logon sound at full volume even when the speakers are set to low volume or muting
15:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, huh, I never seen that
15:20:51 <ehird> why would you have to boot into KDE?
15:21:05 <ais523> well, the KDE system settings window messes up fonts for me
15:21:06 <AnMaster> ais523, idea: turn off the login sound in KDE settings
15:21:17 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: btw, if you're interested, the SVN version of Konversation uses Qt4 (you mentioned something about it a few minutes ago)
15:21:26 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: is it semi -stable?
15:21:29 <AnMaster> "system notifications" I think
15:21:55 <ehird> ais523: apeparance->fonts, by the way,
15:22:12 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: yup, I'm using it right now, haven't found any problem except for a minor graphical bug that you probably wont even encounter
15:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, btw xchat is way better than xchat aqua I heard
15:22:38 <ais523> BeholdMyGlory: have you reported it?
15:22:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it is, but it still sucks
15:23:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what about conspire then? It is a fork of xchat, I heard it was way better
15:23:29 <AnMaster> haven't tried it myself though
15:23:39 <ehird> aaaaaagh!! Stop trying to get me to use xchat! wtf man!
15:23:58 <AnMaster> ehird, should I try to get you to use ERC instead ;P
15:24:00 <BeholdMyGlory> ais523: no, I haven't. maybe I should? but then again, the porting is in progress, they probably just haven't gotten there yet
15:24:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you just authorized your own death, fyi
15:24:30 <ehird> ais523: generally, bug reports aren't appreciated for pre-pre-pre-alpha code
15:24:33 <ais523> BeholdMyGlory: I like to report bugs, or at least check if it's already known
15:24:45 <ehird> I've seen several projects explicitly state that
15:24:53 <ehird> since they almost certainly know about the issue already
15:25:01 <ais523> well, they should put it in the tracker then
15:25:02 <ehird> and are busy with other things
15:25:20 <ais523> certainly when I'm programming I appreciate bug reports even in pre-alphas
15:25:41 <AnMaster> ehird, that actually varies. for example, yesterday a valgrind developer wanted me to try svn version instead of last release and also report any bugs I found in the experimental ptrcheck tool in it.
15:26:02 <AnMaster> while it did fix one of the bugs I had in the release I found (and reported) several other ones :)
15:26:04 <ehird> ais523: uploading a screenshot of awful text rendering on wikipedia with subpixel+full hinting
15:26:13 <ehird> the window decoration text looks nice though
15:26:15 <ais523> ehird: I've seen it too
15:26:18 <ehird> filebin hates arora
15:26:23 <ehird> ais523: you said firefox gets it fine
15:26:33 <ehird> I'm not using konqueror
15:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, did you build freetype with BCI yet?
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15:27:08 <ehird> I'm not going to build my own freetype
15:27:22 <AnMaster> well, it is the thing that will help
15:27:31 <ehird> your screenshot with it was awful.
15:27:39 <AnMaster> binary distros don't enable the BCI because Apple has a patent on it in US
15:27:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that is because my fonts sucks
15:27:54 <ehird> I only have dejavu too
15:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you could copy some from OS X and change the settings to use them
15:28:36 <ehird> I'm trying to gague how well linux is doing, not how well linux is doing if I patch it to make it os x :p
15:28:38 <ais523> can Linux use OS X fonts?
15:28:43 <ehird> ais523: if you convert them.
15:28:48 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to convert them first
15:28:51 <ehird> they look ugly though
15:29:02 <AnMaster> ehird, not if you use the BCI :P
15:29:18 <ehird> ooh, I htink I struck gold with some settings
15:29:19 <ais523> interesting, it seems they just ported D to the Mac
15:29:24 <AnMaster> it is just that dejavu and such are optimised for non-BCI
15:29:26 <ais523> ehird: which settings are those?
15:29:26 <ehird> use subpixel rendering = RGB
15:29:28 <ehird> hinting style = slight
15:29:46 <ais523> AnMaster: why don't you like subpixel?
15:29:47 <ehird> thank you AnMaster, I didn't ask for your opinion
15:29:52 <ehird> ais523: D already works on os x, with gdc, but gdc is unmaintained and crap
15:29:53 <AnMaster> ais523, coloured edges of fonts
15:29:55 <ehird> dmd now works on it, too
15:29:59 <ehird> AnMaster: err, you're meant to use a tft.
15:30:01 <ehird> which specifically hides those.
15:30:10 <ehird> that's the whole point of subpixel rendering
15:30:11 <ais523> well, subpixel only makes sense on TFTs
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15:30:24 <ais523> as for the subpixel choices, only one of them is ever correct
15:30:26 <ehird> you have a crap tft.
15:30:31 <ais523> so if you pick the wrong one, you'll see coloured edges
15:30:32 <ehird> or configured subpixel rendering badly.
15:31:26 <ehird> logout login time --->
15:32:34 <ehird> I think there's one idiot developing KDE that ruins the whole thing
15:32:38 <ehird> it prompts you if you want to move something to the trash.
15:33:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I tried all the subpixel style options
15:33:21 <ais523> what screen res are you using?
15:33:38 <ehird> either your tft screen is crap, or you're using a crap subpixel implementation, or you had the wrong hinting settings or whatever
15:33:39 <AnMaster> 1400x1050, as for DPI I think it is 98 DPI or such
15:33:46 <ais523> ehird: so does Windows, about that move-to-trash prompt
15:33:51 <ehird> with good subpixel rendering it is impossible to see the colouring without zooming in
15:34:02 <ehird> ais523: it's stupid! the whole point of a trash is to be able to undo deletes!
15:34:03 <ais523> I think there's at least one KDEer who goes around copying Windows' bad ideas as well as their good ones
15:34:24 <AnMaster> now what works well is: antialias, full hinting, no subpixel, exclude 0-7 pt
15:34:32 <ais523> and with 1400x1050, as long as your screen res matches the screen's actual res, no way a normal human should be able to see the color fringes if you use the right pixel order
15:34:44 <ehird> ais523: or, the implementation is crap
15:34:49 <ehird> or, it's placebo like so many things
15:35:05 <ehird> he tried it thinking he wouldn't like it, lo and behold...
15:35:31 * ehird installs ms core fonts
15:35:52 <ais523> I'm actually thinking about uninstalling those, because openoffice keeps trying to use them by default
15:36:10 <ehird> I don't like them but dejavu sans is very ugly unless planned for
15:36:14 <ehird> the web is killing my eyes
15:36:24 <ehird> ais523: also, it's Qt that messes up kerning, I think
15:36:28 <ais523> well, there are lots of other fonts in the list
15:36:30 <ehird> as other browsers are doing it too
15:36:45 <ais523> and Qt messing up kerning is consistent with my obligations, although I haven't seen enough to prove it
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15:38:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what about kerning in firefox?
15:38:38 <ais523> AnMaster: too much nomic
15:38:48 <ehird> I don't really feel like installing firefox, but it'd probaly be fine.
15:38:57 <ais523> firefox is gtk-based on Linux
15:39:22 <AnMaster> I use Gimp in KDE. Gimp is GTK based
15:39:31 <ehird> joy, more irrelevance...
15:39:45 <AnMaster> I found the comment that firefox is GTK based quite irrelevant too
15:39:54 <ais523> AnMaster: well, the theory is that it's Qt that's messing up kerning
15:39:55 <ehird> er, it really wasn't
15:40:07 <ais523> and by implication, gtk apps won't
15:40:09 <ais523> because they don't use qt
15:40:15 <AnMaster> ais523, yes exactly, that is why I suggest you try something else. Also kerning isn't messed up in konq here
15:40:17 <ais523> just like athena widget apps or SDL apps won't
15:40:30 <ehird> AnMaster always has to inject "USE THIS OTHER APPLICATION"
15:40:34 <ehird> "USE THIS VERSION THAT I PREFER"
15:40:42 <AnMaster> or I use a different font, or I happen to use a freetype with BCI
15:40:45 <ais523> AnMaster: well the whole point of this exercise was to evaluate how ready KDE 4.2 was for people like ehird to use as a main OS
15:40:55 <ais523> which is the point you're probably missing
15:41:04 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed that changes the whole thing
15:41:09 <ais523> I tried it for a while and went back to Gnome
15:41:18 <ais523> I think it's usable for me as a main OS, but Gnome is more usable
15:41:21 * ehird carefully opens tiny hole in body to let out craziness to avoid explosion
15:41:38 <ehird> ais523: don't make me download an ubuntu cd... :P
15:41:56 <ais523> ehird: meh, it hasn't changed much recently
15:42:05 <ais523> it's mostly been bugfixing and stealing good ideas from Mac OS X
15:42:20 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't stand gnome, but I can't stand kde 4.x either, and yes I tried both, though not 4.2, but from what I seen in screenshots and release notes it is still way behind kde 3
15:42:23 <ais523> did you know that Windows 7 has what's effectively the Dock, now, except probably implemented worse and with a different name?
15:42:30 <ehird> one day they'll all just license out os x from apple :P
15:43:35 <AnMaster> point is that the BCI thing is quite similar to the way some binary distros (used to?) disable mp3 support in the included mediaplayer, because of patents
15:43:45 <AnMaster> not sure if that is still the case
15:44:09 <ais523> AnMaster: well in Ubuntu you have to download it separately IIRC
15:44:11 <ehird> Hmm, I should take advantage of my freedom while I have it. Maybe I'll try some window manager.
15:44:47 <ehird> xnomad is a ninja. it kills windows you don't need.
15:44:48 <ais523> I was about to mention xmonad too
15:44:55 <ehird> it's called the bsc. bullshit collector.
15:44:56 <ais523> given that ehird made me install it
15:45:02 <ehird> ais523: I've tried xmonad, guess I'll try it again
15:45:12 <ehird> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634447
15:45:17 <ehird> BCI IS enabled in ubuntu.
15:45:17 <ais523> it doesn't really suit the way I use windows, though
15:45:20 <ehird> Since at least dec 2007.
15:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, last I heard it wasn't, but ok... So maybe try disabling it?
15:45:48 <ehird> from another thread, since at least october 2006
15:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, compile time option for freetype
15:46:13 <ais523> AnMaster: this is a binary distro, messing with compile time options isn't what people normally do on those
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15:46:24 <ais523> although Ubuntu handles source packages fine, people rarely use them
15:46:30 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc even debian has this thing called "source packages" yes
15:46:53 <ehird> well, I have to install tons of crap first.
15:46:59 <ehird> (xmonad depends on ghc.)
15:47:00 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you mean "even debian"
15:47:11 <ehird> ais523: he sees debian as a lowest common denominator.
15:47:15 <ais523> how do you think Debian makes the binary packages in the first place?
15:47:22 <ehird> because, umm, I don't know, it's not source based?
15:47:36 <AnMaster> ais523, yes of course, that was my point
15:47:38 <ehird> AnMaster: you have some fucked up distro ladder...
15:47:53 <ehird> I don't think the biggest ubuntu fan would say slackware is the lowest distro
15:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not a ladder, stairway to gentoo
15:48:12 <ehird> kind of like the stairway to heaven? I'm happy being at the bottom on both.
15:48:13 <ais523> please, I'm physically laughing out loud now
15:48:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it was a horrible pun yes
15:48:26 <ehird> ais523: you're way too amusable ;p
15:48:44 <ais523> I missed the pun, I think
15:48:49 <ehird> I don't think it was a pun
15:48:54 <ais523> well, I still can spot it
15:48:56 <ehird> I think he s/heaven/gentoo/ and called it a pun
15:49:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well if it wasn't a pun, then what was it
15:49:18 <ais523> that's what we're asking you?
15:49:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it wasn't actually anything
15:49:25 <ais523> I can't figure out what you were doing there at al
15:49:26 <ehird> apart from a feeble attempt at humour
15:49:39 <ais523> this is why I'm so amused
15:49:44 <AnMaster> ais523, intentionally making no sense
15:49:51 <ehird> I wish I had that excuse
15:50:06 <ehird> i'm actually really funny, you can tell because i'm not!
15:50:25 <ehird> i'll take that as a good thing
15:59:50 <oklopol> yeah ehird is pretty ridiculous
16:00:48 <ais523> oklopol: I thought you were a noodle fan/
16:01:44 <oklopol> i like all that tastes incredibly good.
16:03:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:08:40 <ais523> Subject: SPAM: ATM Machine ownership is unique. Try it.
16:08:51 <ais523> spam emails just get stranger and stranger...
16:15:40 -!- dhjkd has joined.
16:15:51 <dhjkd> 1) other wms can't seem to read my keypresses
16:15:57 <dhjkd> 2) konversation crashes at startup
16:16:01 <dhjkd> 3) my fan is whirring quite a lot
16:16:10 <dhjkd> this far <-- --> from jumping ship back to os x.
16:16:40 <ais523> I don't mind you jumping ship
16:16:50 <dhjkd> also, Dolphin is flashing randomly when I open it
16:17:07 <dhjkd> and my fan seems to be whirring more and more
16:17:09 <ais523> I think it's probably best for everyone to choose for themselves what OS is best for them, and it differs for different people
16:17:23 <dhjkd> right now I'm concerned at wtf this is doing to my fan.
16:19:02 <dhjkd> ais523: do you think plan9 will work with a usb keyboard / mouse yet?
16:19:21 <ais523> failing everything, connect up a serial cable and toggle the keypresses in yourself
16:19:26 <dhjkd> Mony: what is the answer
16:19:37 <dhjkd> ais523: good luck finding a serial cable port on this mac
16:19:59 <ais523> hmm... this laptop probably doesn't have one either
16:20:08 <ais523> pity, serial's by far the best simple connection for implementing by hand
16:20:28 <dhjkd> ais523: there's not even a ps/2 port in here
16:20:29 <ais523> if you're messing around with electronics, designing something serial-controlled's easier than the alternatives
16:20:44 <ais523> my laptop has hardly any ports, though
16:20:56 <ais523> ps/2, VGA, USB, modem, and Ethernet
16:20:59 <dhjkd> hmm ... can grub boot from a cd without it being in the menu?
16:21:15 <ais523> dhjkd: probably, it has loads of options
16:21:19 <ais523> I don't like messing with them though
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16:30:11 <dhjkd> I am downloadering plan 9
16:36:17 <dhjkd> the main problem with plan 9 is that everyone who uses it is a jerk.
16:36:51 <ais523> dhjkd: you're just going to have to speed up your implementation of Plan10
16:37:09 <dhjkd> Hopefully it'll be so amazing that uriel dies of shock.
16:38:18 <dhjkd> The most obnoxious plan 9 user ever.
16:38:34 <dhjkd> continually rants about how other systems are imorral and "disgusting"
16:38:51 <dhjkd> maintains a site where he whines about everything from every market that isn't free to the abhorrent act of having kids
16:39:18 <dhjkd> impossible to ignore to boot
16:39:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:39:42 <ais523> wait, why can't you ignore him?
16:40:19 <dhjkd> he's too ridiculously loud.
16:40:54 <ais523> in what forum is he talking to you?
16:41:17 <dhjkd> he's all over the place. reddit, irc, ...
16:41:38 <dhjkd> you can't ignore him on irc: he's so loud that all conversation ends revolving around him
16:41:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:41:45 <dhjkd> and reddit has no killfiles.
16:42:40 <dhjkd> k3b is making my disk drive perform a worrying whirr.
16:44:02 <dhjkd> plan9 time, maybe ->
16:44:59 -!- dhjkd has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
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17:06:46 <oerjan> <AnMaster> gah cold fnigers
17:06:54 <oerjan> i think we can believe in that.
17:08:38 <oerjan> "Resultater 1 - 10 av ca. 92 900 000 for fniger."
17:10:19 <GregorR> For fniger? Where's MY 92 900 000?!
17:10:28 <oerjan> "Resultater 1 - 10 av ca. 108 000 000 for finger."
17:11:04 <oerjan> apparently people really _do_ spell that bad :D
17:11:38 <GregorR> Is a resultater something that resultates?
17:12:58 <oklopol> no that would clearly be "resultator"
17:13:45 <oerjan> en:result (v) = no:resultere
17:14:42 <GregorR> My attempt to classify the word "result" resulted in an improper classification.
17:14:43 <oklopol> good, was worried there for a sec
17:15:22 <ais523> do norwegian verbs really end in "ere", like Latin verbs often do?
17:15:31 <GregorR> Sorry, my mouth was watering because the healthy human baby truck was driving by.
17:15:35 <GregorR> So I wasn't thinking straight.
17:15:39 <oerjan> no, only those stolen from latin.
17:16:01 <oerjan> also, it's -ere even if latin has -[aei]re
17:16:06 <oklopol> GregorR: don't worry we all think homosexually every now and then.
17:16:23 <GregorR> oklopol: A) That would be pedastry, B) I'm thinking more about cannibalism.
17:16:25 <oklopol> especially when there's babies involved
17:16:55 <oklopol> GregorR: why would it be pedastry?
17:17:14 * oerjan confesses that he considered making yesterday's quit message "I'll have a large one with extra fries"
17:17:24 <GregorR> Oh, I didn't put together what you were responding to X-P
17:17:33 <oklopol> GregorR: are you high or something?
17:17:42 -!- mib_zv88py has joined.
17:17:51 <ais523> hi person who is probably ehird
17:18:26 <oklopol> GregorR: i suggest sleeping, your status in my eyes is changing rapidly!
17:18:36 <mib_zv88py> i can't get plan9 to recognize my keyboard, even if I use a usb one and boot through grub, which SHOULD be legacy-bios-emulating thus exposing it as a ps2
17:18:49 <GregorR> I choose to go eat instead :P
17:19:03 <oklopol> from GregorR the powernerd to GregorR the village idiot
17:19:49 <GregorR> So, a friend of mine and I created card chess.
17:19:58 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_.
17:20:00 <oerjan> GregorR: erm, that's not really reassuring...
17:20:01 <ehird_> ghjkghjkhgkhgkhjkhjkhjkhjkghjhjkjhghjkhjkhjkhjkjhkghjghkhjkghjkhjkhggkhjkghjkhhkhkhgkhkhjkghjkky6y6y6y66666y6y6y6y6yy66yy575766 www5546 w456w546w546w546w546546 56 56 56 56 5 5 55 5
17:20:09 <GregorR> http://codu.org/wiki/?title=Card+Chess
17:20:11 <ais523> ehird_: I don't understand
17:20:19 <oklopol> i used to do that all the time with my friends until i became totally isolated from them when uni started.
17:20:21 <ehird_> expressing my hate for computers.
17:21:27 <ehird_> i wanna make a game solvable by computers only via ai or prime factoring
17:21:53 <ais523> ehird_: you use computers a lot for someone who hates them as much as you do
17:22:01 <ais523> I have to admit to actually liking computers
17:22:21 <ehird_> ais523: they have potential
17:22:28 <ehird_> but they're still rubbish.
17:22:57 <ehird_> god i hate plan9 users
17:22:59 <ehird_> On Thu Apr 17 17:19:06 EDT 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
17:23:00 <ehird_> > rEFIT fails me. Back to waiting.
17:23:02 <ehird_> you know, you could get a pc.
17:23:06 <ehird_> yeah they should buy a pc just to try out plan9
17:25:00 <oerjan> actually plan9 _is_ a plot by evil aliens to take over the earth. fortunately they underestimated the stupidity of earthling computer users.
17:25:04 <ehird_> ais523: do you have a pc that can run plan9? I'm going to come and steal it
17:25:18 <ais523> ehird_: probably, and good luck
17:25:21 <ais523> why not just try in a VM/
17:26:26 <ehird_> ais523: it's not he same.
17:26:46 <ais523> and this is plan9 we're talking about, and modern hardware we're talking about
17:27:09 -!- mib_zv88py has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
17:27:23 <ehird_> http://www.modmyi.com/forums/chit-chat/19007-ron-paul-plan9-contest-real.html
17:27:27 <ehird_> Ron Paul pervades everything
17:27:32 <ehird_> ais523: I've tried it before.
17:28:02 <oklopol> oerjan: don't worry, just almost totally.
17:29:01 <ehird_> i have thi simac and an old Power Macintosh that runs os 8/9, but no pc. I am so stupid. :P
17:31:13 <oklopol> actually i have even made an acquaintance at uni, this dude started talking to me who was on half the courses i was on (which was pretty much all courses he was on naturally).
17:31:22 <ehird_> 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM
17:41:08 <ehird_> oklopol: your OS willen be written in oklotalk right? i seem to remember you saying oklotalk was only oklotalk if it had the oklotalk os
17:42:26 <oklopol> it's pretty much built on oklotalk, although the systems version is slightly safer :)
17:42:56 <ehird_> oklopol: wait, oklotalk is _safer_ at the os level?
17:43:44 <oklopol> safer than the version of oklotalk that's just oklotalk. the actual programming language oklotalk has a few "features" that don't really suit oses that well.
17:43:58 <ehird_> 07.11.07:14:10:11 <oklopol> would be cool to get aroused by CA
17:44:16 <ehird_> completely out of context by the way
17:44:27 <oklopol> you don't need context for that
17:44:58 <ehird_> 03:34:15 <AnMaster> hm I just got a great idea for how to optimise brainfuck a bit better
17:45:00 <ehird_> 03:34:29 <AnMaster> probably someone already thought of it
17:45:01 <ehird_> 03:35:22 <AnMaster> my idea is, you can replace ++ and -- with set constant sometimes, for example if that cell have had a [-] on it just before and there have been no loops with unbalanced <> in it
17:45:06 <ehird_> I love anmaster's obvious "great ideas"
17:45:48 <ais523> ehird_: you misread that idea, probably
17:45:53 <ais523> it's more than the usual runlength stuff
17:46:07 <ehird_> it's very obvious and most compilers worth their salt ever do it
17:46:42 <ehird_> 04:52:27 <tusho> this download is going slow
17:46:44 <ehird_> 04:52:28 * tusho pokes it
17:46:46 <oerjan> most compilers are probably peppered with such tricks
17:46:47 <ehird_> 04:53:19 <tusho> thanks for finishing download
17:46:50 <ehird_> 04:53:32 <tusho> you are pretty awesome, finishing like that
17:46:51 <ehird_> 04:57:04 <tusho> hooray
17:46:53 <ehird_> a momentary channeling of oklopol.
17:48:09 <ehird_> 07.11.08:15:34:22 <oklopol> optimizations are rather cool, I mean unless they're arousing
17:48:35 <oerjan> it's the oklons in his brain that do it.
17:48:42 <ehird_> oklopol: why did you say that
17:48:45 <ehird_> i mean it doesn't make any sense.
17:50:31 <oklopol> i guess i wasn't trying to make sense
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17:50:44 <ehird_> oklopol: you didn't actually say that i fabricated that quote.
17:50:58 <ehird_> because I am a scoundrel.
17:51:41 <ais523> ah, I can tell it wasn't oklopol looking very carefully
17:51:49 <ais523> because oklopol writes "i" in lowercase
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17:51:56 <ehird_> ais523: i was wondering about that
17:52:00 <ehird_> but he could have typo'ed.
17:52:46 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
17:52:52 <oklopol> ais523: did i use "i" in 08 too? i can't say i remember. also i don't know which is year and which is day in the timestamps.
17:53:07 <oklopol> then i remember even less.
17:53:25 <oklopol> yeah oerjan you can clearly see he isn't going to die.
17:53:31 <oklopol> you need to get a better weapon
17:54:08 <oklopol> ehird_: "ehird_: ais523: i was wondering about that" <<< what this like "i in fact did *not* make that up", i mean... i remember it :D
17:54:14 * FireFly the swat-protected firefly
17:54:21 * ais523 revenges with a SWAT team
17:54:27 <ehird_> so guys, remember when I made up a language where you can put labels and gotos _anywhere_
17:54:40 <ais523> ehird_: yes, and it ended up that you were just reinventing INTERCAL?
17:54:43 <ehird_> i'm like, gonna try that again
17:54:50 <oklopol> then again, i remember everything, even the made up stuff.
17:57:12 <oerjan> yeah like the time you rode a unicorn
17:57:35 <oklopol> yeah that was a lot of fun
17:57:50 <ais523> but it was only in NetHack
17:57:53 <ais523> still loads of fun thoug
17:58:11 <oklopol> what's the command for riding a dragon in nethack?
17:58:21 <ais523> but you have to tame it and put a saddle on it first
18:00:52 <oklopol> that's probably what you meant.
18:01:05 <ehird_> oklopol: so r magiaclly becomes 3 when you goto into the if?
18:01:30 <oklopol> yeah it satisfies the if's condition somehow
18:01:58 <oklopol> cool. you can have declarative "satisfy this" expressions.
18:02:16 <oklopol> something all languages should have btw
18:02:26 <ais523> oh no, this is getting bad...
18:02:27 <ehird_> its less goto-y though.
18:02:50 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:02:54 <ais523> while(i is not a solution to the Reimann hypothesis) {i++}; bar: print 5;
18:03:09 <ais523> presumably you can't goto bar unless it's possible to reach it via ordinary program flow
18:03:31 <oklopol> just infloop if you don't know the answer. all programs can refuse to halt, it's not like anyone's bitching about implementing tc languages anyway.
18:03:31 <ais523> just not if it's inside a loop?
18:03:38 <ehird_> I kind of like not fixing them
18:04:56 <ehird_> grreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
18:05:40 <oerjan> aberdeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
18:05:41 <ehird_> 06:55:26 <Corun> There's only like 2 people in finland right?
18:05:42 <ehird_> 06:55:29 <Corun> Which one's your house?
18:05:44 <ehird_> 06:55:37 <oklopol> yes, and 4 of them are on this channel
18:05:45 <ehird_> omg the start of the meme :D
18:06:12 <oerjan> meme's are true. that's why they are so scary.
18:06:33 <ehird_> the are true belonging to meme?
18:07:02 <oerjan> i saw potential. i fulfilled it.
18:07:15 <oerjan> aka i refused to fix my spelling.
18:07:31 <oklopol> did you decide to read the logs?
18:08:05 <oerjan> today has been an interesting part of the great debate: are the logs invented or discovered?
18:09:27 <ehird_> 07:16:13 <fungot> optbot: oh :p. i think i've gotten ( lambdafnord body) to ( call/ cc...) ( generate-temporaries ( syntax( var)
18:09:39 <ehird_> getting lambda fnord body to call/cc is painful, you need to generate temporaries syntax var
18:09:48 <oklopol> except if is sucked, then i'd be like why did i make him draw this ridiculous crap and tell you you suck.
18:09:57 <oerjan> lambdafnord for dysfunctional programming
18:10:38 <oerjan> hm wait fungot should not merge fnords with neighboring words, should it
18:10:56 <ehird_> someone said lambdafnord
18:11:09 <oerjan> but they must have said it twice
18:11:22 <oerjan> or otherwise fungot would have replaced it by fnord
18:11:27 <ehird_> lambdafnord lambdafnord
18:11:51 <oerjan> hm would that cause fungot to loop?
18:11:53 <ehird_> oerjan: it was my terminal
18:12:01 <ehird_> between lambda and fnord
18:12:14 <Corun> There's only like two meems in #esoteric right?
18:12:17 <oerjan> it's probably got a fnord defect
18:12:46 <ehird_> there's the paradoxinns
18:12:54 <oklopol> okay i find oerjan way too funny today.
18:13:08 <ehird_> there's "fungot wants to take over the world"
18:13:10 <ehird_> ais523: recall any others?
18:13:43 <ais523> ehird_: well, oerjan does
18:13:44 <oklopol> well there were a few more legimate memes on the topic
18:14:10 <ehird_> "#esoteric is a gay sex channel and nothing else"
18:14:17 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:14:40 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:14:54 <oerjan> that's not strictly an #esoteric meme, since it's shared with #vjn iirc
18:14:55 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:15:12 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooooooo
18:15:15 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooo
18:15:18 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: ooooooooooooooo
18:15:23 <ehird_> omg vjn I wanna go bak there
18:15:24 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooooooooooo
18:15:27 <ehird_> i'm going back to vjn okay
18:15:34 <oerjan> they are 4 minutes behind us?
18:15:36 <oklopol> wait that was not very live
18:15:45 <oklopol> yeah it's a time microzone thing.
18:18:38 <oerjan> erm i mean afk, for now
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18:19:34 -!- Judofyr has joined.
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18:56:15 <ehird_> 10:41:30 <oklopol> but... it should return bottom then or something?
18:56:19 <ehird_> 10:41:53 <lament> "to return bottom" means "to die horribly"
18:56:22 <ehird_> 10:42:00 <oklopol> okay
18:56:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("_now_ ->").
18:57:43 <ehird_> 10:57:14 <pikhq> source ^stdcons.bfm;source ^outs.bfm;string foo! "That's just wrong.\n";outs foo!end
18:57:45 <ehird_> 10:57:39 <pikhq> oerjan: Stop with the Lambda.
18:57:51 <ehird_> pikhq is so hostile whenever functional programming is brought up.
18:59:43 <ehird_> oklopol> ackermann's growth is mean, it grows so fast i can't see the nice big numbers, because they're so big the program crashes
19:00:17 <oklopol> well that is a problem with them.
19:02:57 <ehird_> 11:51:46 <oerjan> hm, i would advise you against that attitude here. one of our resident 14-year olds seems frightfully smart.
19:03:18 <ehird_> 11:52:18 <oklopol> yeah, i know :\
19:03:20 <ehird_> 11:52:52 <oklopol> that's exactly where i got that exact age :)
19:04:51 <ehird_> 12:52:22 <oklopol> maintaining old projects mostly, i mostly design my new language, oklotalk, i'm pretty obsessed about it
19:04:53 <ehird_> 12:52:47 <oklopol> but i'll soon be failing at implementing it :)
19:05:10 <oklopol> i mean that resident 14... thing
19:05:18 <ais523> how is oklotalk coming along, anyway?
19:05:26 <ehird_> ais523: it died to J, then got revived
19:05:34 <ehird_> because oklopol discovered jdidn't do arbitrary precision numerics
19:05:35 <oklopol> it's died to a lot of things
19:05:44 <ehird_> and so put oklotalk back on the todo list
19:05:44 <oklopol> and primarily it's died because university.
19:06:17 <oklopol> although what ehird_ said is the official reason ofc
19:06:28 <ais523> ehird_: why the underscore?
19:07:02 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
19:08:00 <ehird> so, 40-bit pointers
19:09:06 <oklopol> ais523: anyway oklotalk has not seen any actual development after last september.
19:09:29 <oklopol> but that's irrelevant in that no one has seen the stuff developed sofar anyway..
19:10:19 <ehird> 16:46:04 <Figs> what is the point of regex?
19:10:20 <ehird> 16:46:33 <SevenInchBread> ...
19:10:21 <ehird> 16:46:39 <SevenInchBread> to... match patterns.
19:10:23 <ehird> 16:47:06 <Figs> ok...
19:11:04 <ehird> 16:55:49 <oklopol> AND i dl'd cube 2 in french, but didn't want to do the work again, so i watched it 3 times hoping i'd just learn french
19:11:18 <ais523> that sounds very oklopol
19:11:52 <olsner> oklopol: so did you learn french by that? :P
19:12:37 <oklopol> i learned je m'appelle claude!
19:12:50 <oklopol> (of course i didn't learn to type it)
19:13:22 <oklopol> it starts with a chick telling her name, although i'm not actually sure claude is a girl's name, that may actually be from friends.
19:13:29 <oklopol> but je m'appelle was there anyway
19:13:59 <oklopol> anyway i didn't actually miss much, 2 has least story
19:14:25 <olsner> so, three words from one movie, watch 30000 more french movies and you'll know all the words, I guess
19:17:32 <ehird> anyone know a file to play raw audio files on lunix
19:19:38 <olsner> play plays just about anything
19:19:43 <olsner> as long as you know the format
19:22:20 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~/code/musak$ play -r 22 -t raw -8 -u musak.raw
19:23:07 <ehird> 10:04:38 <oklopol> i just realized Gamegirl has the word "girl" in it
19:23:09 <ehird> 10:04:41 <lament> we're smart bots.
19:23:10 <ehird> 10:04:45 * oklopol is a bot that penetrates
19:23:12 <ehird> 10:04:49 <CakeProphet> ...
19:23:13 <ehird> 10:04:56 <oklopol> ...
19:23:14 <ehird> 10:05:05 <oklopol> like... metphorically
19:23:16 <ehird> 10:05:10 <oklopol> *metaphorically
19:23:29 <ehird> 10:05:13 <CakeProphet> ...I see.
19:23:31 <ehird> 10:05:32 * lament slowly backs away from oklopol
19:23:32 <ehird> 10:05:57 <oklopol> i'm < 1000 km long, don't worry 8|
19:23:34 <ehird> 10:06:20 <lament> length can be measured in several ways
19:23:35 <ehird> 10:06:27 <lament> i don't know which one you chose...
19:23:37 <ehird> 10:06:27 --- part: Gamegirl left #esoteric
19:26:01 <ehird> 10:43:52 <oklopol> this one day i had this weird urge to havea callstack, but i said to myself "don't you have another callstack, you just had one last week" and i was like "fuck you"
19:26:03 <ehird> 10:44:02 <oklopol> you know
19:27:07 <olsner> oklopol: your weirdness is greatly amusing
19:27:37 <oklopol> ...did that one have a context?
19:28:00 <ehird> yeah, gamegirl came in
19:28:03 <ehird> and lament claimed we're all dead bots
19:28:26 <oklopol> you found an uncorrected typo
19:28:45 <ehird> that was my terminal
19:28:55 <ehird> I TRICKED YOU INTO CORRECTING
19:29:16 <oklopol> no you didn't, i was actually fooling *you* here.
19:29:30 <ehird> i don't believe you
19:29:42 <oklopol> you think i wouldn't remember an uncorrected typo
19:30:28 <ehird> <bobbens> i have two questions about bf, is the datainitialized to 0? how do you print stuff? kernel calls?
19:31:05 <ehird> <oklopol> kernel calls?
19:31:13 <ehird> 11:54:48 <oklopol> ! will call asm INT n, where n is the value of the current cell.
19:31:16 <ehird> oklopol the trickster.
19:31:31 <ais523> that wouldn't be particularly useful unless you had control over the registers
19:31:36 <ehird> <erider> ! is an addition command? I have only seen the 8 commands
19:31:39 <ehird> OH HE FOUND YOU OUT
19:31:49 <ehird> 11:57:56 <oklopol> sorry, i just mislead people asking advice:<
19:31:56 <ais523> anyway, it's easy to print kernel calls in BF
19:32:01 <ais523> actually doing kernel calls might be difficult
19:32:09 <ais523> but you can print them out to the screen easily enough
19:32:27 <ehird> 12:03:21 <Pikhq> CakeProphet: Sure it can (although the *implementation* of such things is lacking).
19:32:30 <ehird> 12:03:38 <Pikhq> One merely needs to implement PESOIX, or something similar, and voila.
19:32:35 <ehird> PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX
19:32:44 <ehird> (5 PSOXs is the correct way to yell PSOX repeatedly)
19:34:00 <oklopol> "<oklopol> sorry, i just mislead people asking advice:<" well this just sounds like plain bad english. of course maybe my intentionally simplified english sounds like that from an outsider's perspective.
19:34:09 <ehird> I'm sorry to have to tell you.
19:34:27 <ehird> oklopol: that's correct english
19:34:37 <oklopol> although i guess you can "ask advice"
19:35:49 <oklopol> it maybe be the "advice:<" that makes it look clumsy.
19:36:09 <oklopol> STOP TELLING ME THINGS I ALREADY KNOW OR DON'T KNOW
19:36:31 <olsner> are there things you do neither?
19:36:46 <oklopol> that's a polite way to tell someone to stfu
19:37:11 <olsner> you mean, an obscure way, so that they don't realized they've been insulted
19:37:54 <oklopol> that's pretty much the definition of polite.
19:38:02 <oklopol> insulting people in ways they don't understand
19:38:17 <ais523> oklopol: I love tht definition
19:39:03 <oklopol> you can do it for many things, "friends, the people you only insult behind their backs"
19:39:13 <ehird> hmm, I broke my kde taskbar
19:40:20 <oklopol> hmm. i'm feeling a bit too lucid atm
19:41:03 <ais523> it's pretty early for night
19:41:23 <AnMaster> ais523, going to bed early due to flu (probably, or something equally terrible...)
19:43:35 <oklopol> only losers get sick *sniffs and wraps blanket tighter around self*
19:47:44 <ehird> ais523: in kde, hold down control-windowskey
19:47:47 <ehird> see stars go around cursor
19:48:17 <ais523> ehird: Compiz does that too, but it's not enabled by default
19:48:26 <ehird> ah, I guess kde is using compiz
19:48:34 <ais523> also, windows key = "super" in Linux terminology
19:48:47 <ais523> and AFAIR, kde doesn't use compiz, it has its own implementation of the same things
19:51:21 <ehird> [19:50] <plopmania> ehird: it so happened, that oklopol turned 20 just today.
19:51:25 <ehird> note: #vjn, probably total lies.
19:51:34 <SimonRC> http://home.earthlink.net/~misaak/jackbean.html argh, so many puns
19:51:48 <ehird> world ending in soon times.
19:52:02 <ais523> oklopol's about the same age as me I think, probably slightly younger
19:52:15 <oklopol> it was a joke you didn't get for obvious reasons
19:52:22 <ehird> when he turns 20, the world will end because there's no way oklopol could be 20, i mean he's so... 19
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19:55:53 <ais523> ehird: you mean oklopol will turn 20 in 2012?
19:56:15 <ehird> he'll be 19 for _years_.
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21:05:22 <ehird> http://www.errornerd.com/system-2.php?seed=The-Weird-Smile-Of-The-Dude-To-The-Right-Of-This-Article
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21:18:22 <ashdasd> I keep committing irc faux pas: saying something in the wrong channel.
21:18:47 <ais523> which channel did you say it in this time?
21:19:04 <ashdasd> I linked to http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/vi in #emacs
21:19:38 <ashdasd> The resolution is to kill my bouncer so I don't see people insult me :P
21:19:52 <ais523> also, the response format for ctcp version is NOTICE nickyourerespondingto :^AVERSION put version number here^A
21:20:25 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-ehird reply from ashdasd: v13.
21:21:49 <ais523> also, pasting that in #emacs was a stroke of genius
21:22:13 <oklopol> i have a hunch he doesn't know
21:22:29 <ais523> because they kicked him? or because he parted in panic?
21:22:32 <ashdasd> yeah I quit it too quickly :-(
21:22:46 <oklopol> "ashdasd: The resolution is to kill my bouncer so I don't see people insult me :P"
21:22:47 <ashdasd> I am very shy round foreign channels :P
21:23:17 <ashdasd> I should just run a bot on those channels so I can spy on them post-quit
21:23:27 <ais523> like you do with ##nomic, you mean?
21:25:07 * oklopol mutters something about ais523 being such an ehird towards ehird nowadays ;)
21:25:31 <oklopol> if the dog starts barking, please tell it to shut up, since it's late.
21:25:51 <ais523> what, the dog or just it in general is late?
21:26:14 <oklopol> so a dog barking would upset my neighs
21:33:17 <ashdasd> god, christel is annoying.
21:33:47 <ashdasd> can't she just get to the point with the bloomin' notices to every-freaking-one instead of inserting rubbish jokes every 3 words
21:37:19 <ashdasd> When i googled for something and found entire transcripts of #emacs, i was appalled and stopped joining #emacs. This stinks of Big Brother. when i write on this wiki, i expect it to be publicly available. but i was naive enough to think that an irc session would be too transient to get indexed. my mistake, but it wonb
21:37:45 <ais523> with all the people who could be logging, one probably will be
21:39:09 <ashdasd> I should set up a sekrit channel logging bot and have it go in all channels it finds.
21:39:41 <ais523> ashdasd: Freenode will very ban you if you do that
21:39:44 <ais523> and I'll agree with them
21:39:58 <ashdasd> i'll claim to have accidentally let the log directory open.
21:40:20 <ais523> they ought not to believe you
21:40:24 <ais523> given your track record, at least
21:40:32 <ashdasd> they won't know it's me. tor.
21:41:12 <ais523> does tor even work on freenode?
21:41:32 <ashdasd> plus, linking the logs to the bot would be near-impossible. it'd pose as human.
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21:44:03 <lament> you realize people have already done exactly that
21:44:46 <lament> but there was a huge scandal
21:44:56 <ashdasd> that's only because people found out,.
21:45:05 <ashdasd> there are so many idlers on IRC.
21:45:16 <lament> yes, which is why i'm saying people have already done that
21:45:32 <ashdasd> if there was a scandal, the performers are crap.
21:46:13 <lament> their site doesn't even come up in search for irc log
21:46:25 <lament> so i assume they phailed completely afterwards
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21:49:01 <ais523> ehird: your bouncer's reworking?
21:49:09 <ehird> It never broke, I killed it to exit #emacs.
21:49:27 <ais523> I thought Freenode had banned it?
21:49:28 <ehird> I couldn't just part as I Cmd-Q'd my client immediately.
21:49:37 <ehird> ais523: ermm, when?
21:49:43 <ehird> well yeah, they did then...
21:49:50 <ehird> surely you've seen me on it since then?
21:50:05 <ehird> ... which, by the way, expires today
21:52:40 <ehird> http://alpha61.com/primenumbershittingbear/ it's back!
21:53:31 <ais523> ehird: how long do you think it'll be squatted for once it expires?
21:53:42 <ehird> ais523: I doubt it will be squatted
21:54:04 <ais523> maybe I'll start up my own ESO some time
21:54:11 <ehird> who said ESO died?
21:54:11 <ais523> running under ais523 principles rather than ehird principles
21:54:16 <ais523> it might actually get something done that way
21:54:25 <ais523> and ESO has been effectively dead forever, because it's never done anything
21:54:32 <ais523> other than argue about what sort of markup to use
21:54:36 <ehird> actually, eso-1 got pretty far.
21:54:56 <ehird> ais523: http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/
21:55:32 <ehird> had a number of famous people
21:55:33 <ehird> <Egy> Ørjan Johansen, from the Norwegian language
21:55:33 <ehird> <Kett?> Panu Kalliokoski, from the Finnish language
21:55:33 <ehird> <Három> Gerson Kurz, from the German language
21:55:33 <ehird> <Nyelv> Chris Pressey, from the Canadian language
21:55:38 <ehird> i started eso because I like bikeshedding
21:55:57 <ais523> http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.0.txt hahaha
21:56:14 <ehird> http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.3.txt Real standard
21:57:47 <ais523> nah, they're all jokes I think
21:58:03 <ehird> erm, http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.3.txt is pretty serious
21:58:18 <ehird> not very, but it's a usable setandard
21:58:26 <ais523> it doesn't even address the EOF problem
21:58:41 <ais523> it insists on a truly semi-infinite tape
22:07:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:07:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:09:04 <ais523> by the way, does anyone here know why vertical tabs?
22:09:16 <ehird> I like vertical tabs
22:10:28 <oerjan> i imagine if you were filling out a lot of them on a typewriter, vertical tabs would be nice
22:10:37 <ais523> that was Wikipedia's idea
22:10:53 <oerjan> and also if you print on form letters
22:11:43 -!- jix has quit ("...").
22:11:58 <olsner> "his body's shutting down" ... blah, do they really say that? is that actually a meaningful metaphor for some medical condition?
22:12:53 <ais523> a body rebooting would be weird
22:13:08 <olsner> "*** Body going down for reboot NOW"
22:14:09 <oerjan> sleep is just the body's fsck
22:14:26 <olsner> "I'm sorry, she's going to runlevel 0, there's nothing we can do except bring her down gracefully"
22:17:59 <oerjan> <oklopol> i learned je m'appelle claude!
22:18:12 <oerjan> je m'appelle tres bien aussi
22:18:21 <ehird> there should be a language with no points at all
22:18:26 <ehird> function composition, no variables
22:18:28 <ais523> oerjan: "I am also called very well"?
22:18:32 <ehird> do not say ski calculus
22:18:36 <ehird> for I will rip your brain out
22:19:04 <oerjan> ais523: "i call myself", technically
22:19:17 <ais523> sorry, it's 10pm and I'm not thinking straight
22:19:38 <ais523> oerjan: so in other words, you think you have a good name?
22:19:54 <oerjan> ais523: you're overanalyzing
22:20:22 <oerjan> it's just a nonsense phrase i remember from somewhere
22:22:34 <oerjan> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP_programming_language ?
22:22:46 <ehird> is it impossible to add holes to FP?
22:23:16 <ehird> "⊥ is the undefined value, or bottom" <- lame.
22:24:01 <oerjan> ehird: um every tc functional language has bottom, why not name it?
22:24:15 <ehird> turing completeness sux :P
22:25:06 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/545/
22:25:59 <ais523> if that ever happened, I think it would be a fairly good bet that the article would be protected
22:26:05 <ehird> to which word count? :-D
22:26:15 <ais523> probably there'd be a wheel war
22:26:20 <ehird> I'd lobby it for deletion
22:26:23 <ehird> to see what happens
22:26:26 <ais523> then it would have an even word count
22:26:28 <ais523> due to having no words
22:26:38 <ais523> I think it would be more fun to leave the number of words ambiguous
22:26:38 <ehird> ais523: does a deleted article exist? no
22:26:41 <ehird> it can't have a set of words
22:26:41 <ais523> say by adding in a nbdp
22:26:44 <ehird> there is no such set
22:26:50 <ais523> and apostrophised words
22:27:01 <ehird> ais523: therefore, hatman must give the money to ** Exception: undefined
22:27:14 <oerjan> ais523: does wp have templates that can depend on who's watching it? (probably)
22:28:06 <ais523> oerjan: no, although the feature's been requested every now and then
22:28:12 <ais523> the problem is caching
22:28:21 <ais523> you can use CSS to depend on which skin they use
22:28:39 <ais523> or do things that change every time the article's refreshed
22:28:46 <ais523> that's what they did on the US presedential election day
22:28:54 <ais523> they set up the Main Page to show featured articles about both candidates
22:29:09 <ais523> but the order depended on when the page had last been purged, and it's purged quite a lot
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22:32:16 <ehird> http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3503/xkcdhybridka3.png
22:33:09 <ehird> I like pie <blink>lots</blink>
22:35:29 <oerjan> i see a lot of pie blinking out of existence
22:35:49 * oerjan scares FireFly with the swatter, but without hitting -----###
22:36:18 * FireFly scares oerjan with jokes about norwegian people, but without telling any.
22:37:24 <ehird> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/10/xkcd-comic-reenactment-leads-to-100-deaths.html
22:37:53 <ehird> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35035#p1388172 <-- haha
22:38:37 <oklopol> "Once something is on the web, it's there forever," said xkcd fan Marlon Hatcher. "I can't wait to go to the next meetup in San Francisco and kill myself with other fans."
22:39:05 <ais523> I hope that news story isn't real
22:39:10 <ais523> if it is, the journalism on it is rubbish
22:39:22 <ehird> they're the geek onion
22:39:49 <ais523> I tend not to find fake newspapers particularly amusing
22:40:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
22:41:11 <ehird> also, I fully support http://www.everytopicintheuniverseexceptchickens.com/
22:42:06 <ais523> what does it typically discuss?
22:42:27 * ais523 wonders if there's a http://www.thebestpageintheuniverseexceptchickens.com
22:42:38 <ehird> it's about wikipedia
22:42:52 <ehird> by the guy who writes dinosaur comics
22:42:56 <ehird> and wrote Jokes Explained
22:43:16 <ais523> which link, yours or mine?
22:45:17 <ehird> "On August 17, 2007, the Spanish TVE2 ("La 2") public T.V. channel vandalised the Spanish article on John Lennon in the 2:30 news program, just for the sake of making a story"
22:45:56 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
22:47:40 <ehird> Yo dawg, I heard you like fractals so I put a sierpinski gasket in your sierpinski gasket so you can triangle while you triangle
22:47:53 <ais523> where does the yo dawg thing come from?
22:48:01 <ais523> what started the meme? what was the original phrase?
22:48:07 <ehird> allow me to link you
22:48:39 <ehird> tl;dr: Xzibit is a rapper. He has a show on MTV, "Pimp My Ride".
22:48:50 <ehird> They put stupid shit in cars behind people's backs relating to their interests.
22:49:00 <ehird> "Yo dawg, I heard you like X so we put an X-thing in your car so you can X while you drive."
22:49:07 <ehird> This was then generalized
22:49:36 <oerjan> also, some nitpickers point out it's supposedly "Sup dawg"
22:49:48 <ehird> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d6/Yoyoyodawg.jpg
22:50:48 <oerjan> also, i don't visit that site any more.
22:51:06 <ais523> that general website isn't, though
22:51:19 <ais523> it's quite possibly blocked, and you get in trouble for setting off the blocker
22:51:28 <ehird> er, blocked where?
22:51:32 <ehird> you mean at work/school?
22:51:46 <ehird> if oerjan is at one of those right now, his schedule is fucked up
22:51:57 <ehird> although indeed makes sense for you
22:52:02 <ais523> I've already set it off once and had to explain
22:52:10 <ais523> for some bizarre reason, they blocked the text of the X11 licence
22:52:28 <oerjan> i just don't _like_ watching semi-porn while i am trying to read about something completely different
22:52:52 <ehird> i said that image was sfw.
22:53:00 <ehird> but yes, the ads are annoying.
22:53:01 <ehird> ais523: haha, how the heck did they question you?
22:53:02 <oerjan> ehird: and indeed it was
22:53:08 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
22:53:10 <ehird> "WHY DID YOU VIEW THE x11 LICENSE? HAVE YOU NO MORALS?!?!?"
22:53:22 <ehird> "...THE GPL IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE LICENSE!"
22:53:48 <ais523> ehird: well, I sent an apologetic email explaining that I had no idea it was blocked until I hit the filter
22:54:00 <ehird> did they question you first, though?
22:54:04 <ais523> luckily, I'm friends with the people who administer the thing (who don't like it either0
22:54:10 <ehird> i wanna know what the heck they said :D
22:54:11 <ais523> ehird: it's automated, a big scary red messaeg
22:54:23 <ehird> web filters are so ridiculous
22:54:30 <ehird> trivial to get around and annoy legitimate users
22:54:43 <ais523> I used to go around the filter a lot, because the filter server kept crashing
22:54:59 <ais523> and so I couldn't even access email until I turned the thing off
22:55:07 <ais523> however, nowadays it's a lot more reliable, so I go through it
22:55:14 <ais523> also they blocked the exploit I used to use
22:55:33 <ais523> and I can't be bothered to find a new one, it's not worth it
22:57:19 <ehird> "Lengthwise, it'd degenerate into the debate over whether 2 is odd or even."
22:57:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:58:44 <ehird> whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
22:59:53 <ehird> http://www.xkcd545.com/ <- fail
23:00:25 <oerjan> ehird: 2? i did see someone trying that with 1 in that discussion you linked
23:00:26 <ais523> xkcds have their own domain names now?
23:00:36 <ehird> ais523: no, some idiot registered it
23:00:46 <ehird> thinking that it wouldn't be deleted because he's an idiot
23:00:49 <ais523> does it redirect to xkcd 545?
23:01:00 <ehird> I'm not lynx(1), ais523.
23:01:05 <ehird> You're perfectly capable of clicking links.
23:01:21 <ais523> ehird: yes, but I don't /want/ to
23:01:34 <oerjan> "If the Wikipedia article gets deleted, null doesn't pay." that's definitely fail :D
23:01:36 <ehird> either use a browser or miss out on the www...
23:05:25 <ehird> telnet is a browser
23:06:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:08:11 <GregorR> http://codu.org/wiki/?title=Card+Chess
23:08:23 <ais523> it's not really chess...
23:08:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:09:14 <ehird> GregorR: you should invent my awesome game
23:09:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:09:39 <GregorR> ais523: It's sort of in the /spirit/ of chess :P
23:09:55 <GregorR> ehird: If it's your game, I didn't invent it :P
23:10:14 <ehird> GregorR: the basic idea is: make solving it = breaking RSA (that is, primey factory)
23:10:23 <ehird> and yet still try and keep it possible for human
23:10:28 <ehird> = WHERE'S YOUR AI NOW
23:10:41 <ehird> for extra points, involve fractal
23:11:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but it has to be playable by humans
23:11:40 <ehird> with actual skill levels and the like, just as normal games
23:12:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: point: missed.
23:12:31 <ais523> ehird: I don't think that any way of organising the data, humans will be any good at solving RSA
23:12:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: waah.
23:12:47 <ais523> by the way, new scientist's reporting that a 28-bit quantum computer has been made
23:12:50 <ehird> ais523: the idea isn't to have humans solve RSA.
23:12:54 <ais523> (that's 28 quantum bits of memory /altogether/)
23:12:54 <oklopol> i was gonna say something...
23:12:58 <ehird> the idea is that for computers to solve it effectively,
23:13:01 <ehird> they have to solve RSA.
23:13:12 <oklopol> ais523: cool, did they factor 20 yet?
23:13:14 <ais523> and that there are plans for a 128-bit quantum computer being made along the same principle
23:13:16 <ehird> or else be strong ai
23:13:28 <ais523> I think it could factor 21, though
23:13:34 <ais523> oklopol: so Shor's algorithm fails on even numbers
23:13:36 <oklopol> i don't know anything about shor's
23:13:45 <oklopol> yeah okay assumed but didn't actually know
23:14:24 <oklopol> well. 21 is the next logical step
23:16:44 <ais523> you can do it in O(n) trivially
23:16:48 <ais523> but that's rather slow on big numbers
23:17:19 <SimonRC> isn't the complexity of factorisation usually expressed in terms of the size of the number?
23:17:48 <ais523> personally, though, I think n should be the number
23:17:49 <ais523> else what would you call it?
23:18:21 <oklopol> if it's the number, it's pseudo-polynomial, it's not polynomial on input size, it's polynomial on some invariant about input.
23:18:29 <oerjan> hm theory: the universe is actually simulated on a classical computer, using looping to simulate quantum effects. when quantum computers are built the number of loop iterations needed to simulate them goes asymptotical. the universe thus grinds to a halt on Dec 22, 2012 :D
23:18:29 <oklopol> in this case whatever number it represents
23:18:42 <bsmntbombdood> but if p=np, then you can factor in polynomial time in size right?
23:19:02 <ais523> oerjan: that's an insane theory
23:19:10 <ais523> also, people are getting the 2012 thing all wrong
23:19:22 <ais523> why is that particular doomsday date the one people seem to focus on, ayway?
23:19:31 <ehird> i've said this so many times to you
23:19:34 <ehird> THEY'RE NEW AGERS!
23:19:36 <ehird> THEY DON'T USE THEIR BRAIN!
23:19:42 <oklopol> ais523: i think it's because i watched that documentary.
23:19:45 <ehird> THEY'RE IDIOTS WHO WILL CROWD AROUND ANYTHING "SPIRITUAL"!
23:19:49 <ais523> but why that one in /particular/?
23:19:52 <oerjan> ais523: because it's the next one up with some kind of rationale
23:19:59 <ehird> BECAUSE THE MAYANS WERE CLEVER AND HAD "TECHNOLOGY"!
23:20:04 <ehird> AND THEY PREDICTED IT VAGUELY AND OMNIOUSLY!
23:20:31 <ais523> caps lock is cruise control for cool?
23:20:38 <ehird> cruise control for 2012
23:20:38 <ais523> (the previous line was typed with caps lock on)
23:20:52 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i don't know whether it's np-hard. everyone else does
23:20:59 <ehird> CAPSLOCK + SHIFT = UPPERCASE ON OS X
23:21:17 <oklopol> more like i don't remember, because when i last looked at factorization, i didn't know what it meant.
23:21:32 <ais523> that's a bit ridiculous
23:21:47 <ais523> WHAT IF YOU WANT TO TYPE A lot BUT WITH A FEW lowercase WORDS OR lETTERS IN?
23:21:54 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: no, but p=np would imply it's easy
23:22:03 <ehird> ais523: DON"T USE CAPSLOCK
23:22:06 <oerjan> (well, polynomially easy)
23:22:06 <ais523> and before you say that's ridiculous, that was typical style for earlier versions of BASIC
23:22:19 <ais523> and shift+caps lock was capital there too, annoyingly
23:22:29 <oklopol> in fact i definitely should've known it's not been proven np-hard.
23:22:33 <ais523> I still mostly used caps lock when writing basic, though, as everything had to be capital but variable names
23:23:12 <oerjan> no one knows whether it's np-hard, i should think
23:23:52 <oklopol> i don't see any reason to use lowercase except that many dislike uppercase on irc
23:24:06 <ais523> lowercase is easier to read for long periods of time
23:25:30 <oklopol> they also say monospaced fonts are harder to read
23:26:15 <oklopol> and that is complete bullshit
23:26:32 <ehird> (INTERNET ARGUMENTS)
23:28:11 <oklopol> there's actually a course on quantum computing in our uni, would be one way to learn shor's algo, i'm too lazy to read the wiki page anyway.
23:28:34 <ais523> oklopol: it wasn't until after my course on engineering that I understood Shor's algorithm
23:28:38 <ais523> it's based on Fourier stuff
23:28:52 <ais523> and all the descriptions of it I've seen assume you already know how that works
23:29:16 <oklopol> i might know fourier stuff, i but i don't know whether i do.
23:29:54 <oerjan> you have to get your numbers fourier before they can be shorn
23:29:59 <oklopol> what does "engineering" mean for a course?
23:30:39 * oerjan is surprised to still be alive after that one
23:33:20 <oerjan> well, clearly it killed everyone else
23:34:59 <oerjan> maybe you were saved by not getting all of it, or something
23:37:17 <oklopol> i think i just liked "shorn"
23:37:45 <oklopol> ais523: what is an engineering course? :)
23:37:55 <ais523> oklopol: well it's electronic engineering in my case
23:38:14 <oklopol> i have an electronics course next wednesday
23:38:20 <oklopol> err i mean the one after that
23:39:20 <oklopol> also calculus and software engineering and some ai, should probably try to cut down on the irc chatter.
23:44:18 <ehird> I hear it's gonna be a killer filesystem
23:44:30 * oerjan swats ehird to death -----###
23:44:37 <ehird> SimonRC: i know but it's still funny
23:44:41 <ehird> oerjan: dammit Hans!
23:44:52 <SimonRC> apparently Reiser is having a bad time in prison
23:44:58 <oerjan> also, don't call me Hans
23:46:39 <SimonRC> I can't find where the news article went
23:46:48 <ehird> On 10 January 2009 it was reported that Hans Reiser is recovering after having been beaten up by several prisoners.[52]
23:46:51 <ais523> engineering: it's a bit of programming, a bit of electronics, a bit of maths, and some business management that I hate
23:46:54 <ehird> i feel ... so sorry for him?
23:46:55 <oklopol> does it sound too swedish?
23:47:25 <SimonRC> ah, here it is: http://cbs5.com/crime/hans.reiser.attack.2.905257.html
23:48:01 <oerjan> oklopol: oh it's a perfectly normal norwegian name, it's just not mine
23:48:54 <oerjan> i've got two cousins with it as first or middle name
23:48:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:49:30 <oerjan> (although we don't actually use the latter one)
23:50:31 <oklopol> well middle names are kinda useless
23:51:44 <oerjan> i'm just about the only one on my father's side of the family who _doesn't_ have one...
23:53:16 <oerjan> also, reiser means "travels" in norwegian