←2009-03-17 2009-03-18 2009-03-19→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:17 * FireFly lost :(
00:00:32 <ehird> a
00:01:11 <ehird> 22:29 MizardX: http://sovietrussia.org/f/src/tetoris.swf
00:01:14 <ehird> my god
00:01:16 <ehird> it's full of empty space
00:02:38 <fizzie> A lab-mate dared any of us to fill-and-explosify a non-zero number of lines in that Tetris variant during work-time; I spent approximately seven minutes filling about half of a row, then misplaced a S leaving an unfillable hole, and finally closed the browser tab in disgust.
00:03:24 <fizzie> (Might be one of the reasons I'm still awake trying to write this must-be-ready-by-tomorrow text.)
00:07:59 <oerjan> fizzie: if by better you mean "easier", i cannot imagine one
00:09:00 <fizzie> I mean "as easy but not limited to collaboration on mathy subjects".
00:09:29 <oerjan> no idea
00:10:38 <fizzie> There ought to be some sort of a searchable GiganticSciencePublicationDatabaseGraphThing.
00:12:19 <ehird> An erdos-bacon number of 0.
00:14:04 <oerjan> mm, bacon
00:14:10 <ehird> Mm, Erdos.
00:14:10 <ehird> Er.
00:14:15 <oerjan> (i can safely say this since AnMaster has left)
00:14:17 <ehird> Actually I am eating bacon right now.
00:14:26 <ehird> oerjan: he still responds to pings
00:14:30 <ehird> i think he set his client to wake him up
00:14:36 <oerjan> Actually I am eating peanut butter right now.
00:14:42 <ehird> That is not bacon oerjan.
00:14:47 <oerjan> indeed
00:15:06 <oerjan> i do not believe i have bacon, unless some has sneaked into the liver pate
00:16:01 <oerjan> since bacon pate is a separate product, i doubt it
00:20:31 * oerjan notes that US "jelly" seems to include "jam" as a subset
00:20:37 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:20:37 <ehird> really?
00:20:38 <ehird> weird
00:21:00 <oerjan> so in fact i have all the ingredients for that famous peanut butter and jelly sandwich
00:21:15 <ehird> :D
00:21:37 <oerjan> i merely failed at merging the slices into a sandwich
00:21:59 <oerjan> and now it is too late for this meal, since i have already eaten the peanut butter slice
00:22:39 <oerjan> but next time - FOR SCIENCE
00:26:44 <ehird> hi Blipi, you new?
00:27:04 <Blipi> Yeah
00:27:50 <ehird> welcome
00:27:56 <ehird> what brings you here?
00:28:15 <oerjan> it's just a blip in existence
00:28:43 <Blipi> My friend ;D
00:28:50 <ehird> wait wait ;D?
00:28:52 <ehird> Must be FireFly
00:28:58 <ehird> or MigoMipo, or BeholdMyGlory
00:29:00 <ehird> One of the swedes
00:29:09 <fizzie> There is a large number of nicknames on the list; lots of alternatives.
00:29:11 <Blipi> whom just left
00:29:13 <ehird> telia.com redirects to .se
00:29:14 <Blipi> Yep
00:29:16 <ehird> yep yep, FireFly
00:29:18 <Blipi> FireFly
00:29:19 <Blipi> D:D
00:29:26 <ehird> My investigation skills are unparalleled.
00:29:33 <fizzie> ehird: Do you have some psychic powers or something?
00:29:56 <ehird> No, just deduction.
00:30:13 <ehird> The initcaps of the nick; then ;D -- I've only seen the swedes use ;D, but not AnMaster, he's far too seriousf or that
00:30:20 <ehird> So, FireFly, BeholdMyGlory or MigoMipo
00:30:28 <ehird> I /whois'd, checked the ISP, redirects to .se.
00:30:32 <ehird> And thus.
00:30:58 <oerjan> ehird: wait, are you saying Blipi _is_ FireFly?
00:31:04 <ehird> No.
00:31:10 <ehird> He said he was referred by "My friend ;D".
00:31:16 <oerjan> ok. so i don't have to swat him then.
00:31:21 <ehird> So I tried to figure out who that was.
00:31:22 <ehird> oerjan: heh
00:31:28 <Blipi> ;
00:31:32 <ehird> ;
00:31:38 <oerjan> .
00:31:53 * Blipi lost the Game
00:32:02 <ehird> I can't lose the game. Thank gawd for Not the Game.
00:32:14 <oerjan> i think telia may have some norwegian presence too, at least they used to
00:32:22 <oklofok> ehird: No, just deduction. <<< it was induction
00:32:45 <oerjan> telia and telenor tried to merge once
00:32:47 <ehird> Blipi:
00:32:48 <ehird> Here are the new rules to Not the Game:
00:32:49 <ehird> {
00:32:51 <ehird> 1. You can start playing or stop playing Not the Game by announcing you do.
00:32:53 <ehird> 2. If you are playing Not the Game, you are not playing The Game.
00:32:55 <ehird> 3. Not the Game takes precedence over every other game, including games (apart
00:32:57 <ehird> from Not the Game) that specify other rules of precedence.
00:32:59 <ehird> }
00:33:01 <ehird> s/new //, that was from 2007
00:33:03 <ehird> er
00:33:05 <ehird> 2008
00:33:07 <ehird> wow, just 2008-10
00:33:09 <ehird> later than I thought
00:33:51 * Blipi is playing Not the Game
00:33:52 <oerjan> ehird: you cannot remove the new now, the old new rules take precedence ;D
00:34:00 <Blipi> (:
00:34:03 <ehird> oerjan: heh
00:34:49 <oerjan> well, i guess you could stop playing first
00:35:20 <oerjan> or wait, that "new" is not technically part of the rules
00:35:30 <oerjan> or is it
00:35:56 <Blipi> Well, I'm off
00:35:57 <Blipi> Later
00:36:04 -!- Blipi has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -").
00:36:05 <ehird> bye
00:45:08 -!- tromp_ has joined.
00:45:30 <tromp_> question: what's the smallest known brainfuck interoreter?
00:45:41 <ehird> tromp_: the one in the BrainfuckInterpreter language
00:45:45 <ehird> it goes like this: x
00:45:56 <ehird> but, seriously, well, that's not a simple question
00:46:22 <tromp_> ok, smallest non-cheating interpreter:)
00:46:31 <ehird> define cheating
00:46:33 <ehird> (We're pedants...)
00:46:55 <ehird> tromp_: well, there are interps that fit in 4 80-character lines
00:46:57 <ehird> (sig sized)
00:47:06 <fizzie> There's that 240-byte compiler, which is remarkable in that it is a compiler. And the redcode brainfuck interpreter, wasn't that pretty damn short?
00:47:07 <oerjan> tromp_: are you _that_ john tromp?
00:47:09 <tromp_> cheating is necessaarily ill defined:( but often you know it when you see it. like with the BrainfuckInterpreter language
00:47:23 <tromp_> yes, that's me
00:47:25 <ehird> oerjan: ooh, I knew that name was familiar!
00:47:30 <ehird> hi!
00:47:44 <fizzie> http://impomatic.blogspot.com/2009/01/brainf-interpreter-in-redcode.html has the redcode thing. For an assembly language program, it's rather short.
00:47:45 <tromp_> i just wrote one that seems pretty short
00:47:56 <tromp_> in 117 bytes
00:48:03 <ehird> nice
00:48:04 <ehird> what language?
00:48:18 <tromp_> in lambda calculus
00:48:29 <tromp_> binary lambda calculus to be precise
00:48:30 <ehird> nice
00:48:37 -!- olsner has joined.
00:48:44 <ehird> that's really concise, for LC
00:49:03 <tromp_> well, has anyone tried in LC before?
00:49:07 <ehird> not that I know of
00:49:23 <tromp_> it was something of a challenge:)
00:49:28 <ehird> tromp_: yours is probably the shortest interp
00:50:01 <tromp_> nice testament to the power of LC
00:50:05 <ehird> yes
00:50:13 <ehird> Lambda calculus is the preferred language for enterprise deployment.
00:50:30 <ehird> :-)
00:50:40 <tromp_> with a little sugar on top:)
00:50:46 <fizzie> Shortest C brainfuck I've seen has been 201 bytes, but I'm not sure if it's the shortest C one there is.
00:51:14 <tromp_> imine is actually more like 936 bits
00:51:16 <tromp_> mine
00:51:26 <tromp_> but i just divide by 8 for convenience
00:51:36 <ehird> that's ridiculously small.
00:51:45 <ehird> show it? :)
00:51:57 <tromp_> it's on my BLC wikipedia page
00:52:21 <tromp_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus#Turing_machines_in_BLC
00:52:29 <fizzie> My own C interp seems to be 265 bytes; the bloatedness.
00:52:40 <ehird> tromp_: very nice
00:52:44 <ehird> I have no idae how that works at all :)
00:53:13 <tromp_> maybe i should show the haskell code i used as a guideline
00:53:26 <ehird> that'd be neat :)
00:53:30 <tromp_> that's infinitely more legible:)
00:58:58 <tromp_> hmm, does wikipedia have a verbatim environment?
00:58:59 <fizzie> The redcode interpreter is 13 instructions, but it's a bit difficult to count the bits, since the instruction values are abstract sort of numbers, and the operand size is configurable; and in any case you might consider it a cheating one, as each brainfuck commands needs to be transformed to a single specific redcode instruction and appended to the interpreter program.
00:59:13 <ehird> 23:58 tromp_: hmm, does wikipedia have a verbatim environment? <- hm?
00:59:30 <fizzie> (12, not 13.)
01:01:01 <fizzie> And Wikipedia can do <pre>...</pre> for does-not-collapse-whitespace does-not-interpret-wiki-markup verbatimness.
01:01:03 <oerjan> tromp_: try <nowiki><pre>...</pre></nowiki>
01:01:15 <oerjan> or wait, was that backwards
01:01:33 <fizzie> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page the <pre> tag already ignores Wiki markup.
01:01:48 <oerjan> well, that or <pre><nowiki>...</nowiki></pre>
01:01:56 <oerjan> fizzie: not all, i think?
01:02:22 <fizzie> I'm no MediaWiki expert; the descriptions are identical, though.
01:02:48 <tromp_> seems just indenting works to
01:02:50 <tromp_> too
01:03:05 <fizzie> Leading spaces won't stop Wiki markup parsing, though. Just the text reformatting.
01:03:34 <oerjan> hm right
01:04:05 <tromp_> well, it looks ok to me. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus with the haskell version added
01:05:27 <oerjan> tromp_: you should be aware that article may risk being deleted for non-notability, though
01:06:45 <oerjan> our wiki has no such requirement, though; your binary combinatory logic already has an article there
01:07:12 <ehird> Indeed http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binary_combinatory_logic
01:07:55 <oerjan> well though so does wikipedia...
01:08:08 <tromp_> i'd be happy to copy the blc article onto there as well
01:08:45 <ehird> :-)
01:08:46 <oerjan> note the licenses are different though (we are public domain)
01:09:01 <oerjan> shouldn't matter as long as you're the author, of course
01:13:05 <tromp_> ouch; the esolang wiki doesn't do TeX?
01:13:15 <ehird> it does <math> doesn't it?
01:13:16 <oerjan> um right
01:13:20 <oerjan> always there is something
01:13:35 <ehird> hmm
01:13:37 * ehird looks at the WP article
01:13:45 <ehird> you could replicate that with HTML pretty easily
01:14:12 <tromp_> any volunteers:-?
01:14:25 <ehird> ''λx<sub>0</sub> .'λx<sub>1</sub>.x<sub>0</sub>''
01:14:30 <ehird> with the double single quotes
01:14:32 <ehird> would be the True
01:14:46 <ehird> if you put it on the esolang wiki I'll try to convert it
01:14:54 <tromp_> it's onm there
01:14:58 * oerjan sweeps a "my" under the carpet ^U^U changes a "my" to "this"
01:15:21 <ehird> ?
01:15:30 <oerjan> in the wp article
01:15:37 <tromp_> oops, where did it go?
01:15:41 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus <-- I don't see it
01:16:08 <oerjan> "This interpreter is a rough translation of the following version written in Haskell" was "My ..."
01:16:44 <ehird> tromp_: I'll copy it for you
01:17:06 <tromp_> ok, thanks
01:17:19 <tromp_> i said save page, answered a question, and then it wasnt there:(
01:18:19 <oerjan> hm do we have captchas for non-registered users? i forget.
01:18:24 <tromp_> ah, you got it alrd
01:29:13 <psygnisfive> man
01:29:15 <psygnisfive> grad school rocks
01:29:16 <psygnisfive> :o
01:29:32 <tromp_> now the problem is that i have to update two copies of the page:(
01:31:06 <psygnisfive> also, i wonder what sorts of computations can be computed using strictly binary lambdas.
01:31:33 <ehird> ...all of them
01:31:33 <ehird> ?
01:31:35 <tromp_> what are binary lambdas?
01:31:42 <oklofok> what tromp_ asked
01:32:42 <psygnisfive> yeah yeah. like.. \x,y -> ... with no pseudo binary higher orderedness
01:32:57 <psygnisfive> no \x -> \y -> ...
01:33:04 <psygnisfive> strictly binary functions.
01:33:21 <ehird> erm just pass tuples?
01:33:31 <oklofok> well can't you just use dummy parameters to mimic unary functions
01:33:33 <tromp_> then you're kind of grounded in identity functions:(
01:33:38 <oklofok> hmm
01:33:44 <tromp_> wait
01:33:45 <psygnisfive> no no ehird
01:33:55 <psygnisfive> im curious about the computational power of such things
01:34:06 <tromp_> i was thinking about not even allowing binary lambdas
01:34:33 <oklofok> psygnisfive: please falsify mine
01:34:44 <psygnisfive> and yes, you could i suppose
01:34:45 <psygnisfive> like
01:35:29 <tromp_> once you have combinator S then you have everything
01:35:33 <psygnisfive> (\x,y -> y) (\x,y -> y) 1
01:35:35 <psygnisfive> or whatever
01:35:46 <psygnisfive> is the identity function, surely
01:35:46 <oklofok> hmm
01:35:59 <psygnisfive> well, a binary application
01:36:13 <oklofok> tromp_: you also need k
01:36:14 <psygnisfive> that produces an identity.
01:36:40 <tromp_> k is what you call binary lambda
01:36:53 <oklofok> oh
01:36:55 <psygnisfive> so i suppose because you can mimic unary lambdas with binary lambdas, they must be computationally equivalent
01:37:26 <oklofok> tromp_: psygnisfive didn't mean k by it
01:37:37 <oklofok> err
01:37:39 <oklofok> no sorry
01:37:45 <oklofok> i just misparsed your sentence
01:38:02 <tromp_> so you can represent true and false, but you can't compose functions, or make pairs?
01:38:20 <oerjan> but still, it does not seem overly difficult to just use dummies like oklofok says
01:38:26 <tromp_> you can define church numerals
01:38:37 <tromp_> but not the plus function?
01:38:58 <tromp_> or times?
01:39:03 <psygnisfive> tromp_ i do believe i just said they seem to be computationally equivalent to normal lambdas
01:39:09 <oerjan> note that there is still nothing preventing you from doing things like \x,y -> \z,w -> ...
01:39:27 <psygnisfive> you just need to write things down correctly :p
01:39:33 <psygnisfive> function composition:
01:39:38 <oklofok> basically applying a to x would be `x(a,_), and \x->... would be \x,_->...
01:40:08 <oerjan> *x to a
01:40:15 <oklofok> assuming you can't curry, and f(a,b) is used for calling f with a and b
01:40:23 <oklofok> err yes
01:40:31 <oklofok> (i did some variable name switcharoo)
01:41:05 <tromp_> you can fake \x \y \z with \x \y (\a a) \z
01:41:06 <psygnisfive> supposing f and g are pseudounary functions, and compose = \x,y -> \x',y' -> xx(yyy')
01:41:47 <psygnisfive> then f.g should be
01:41:51 <psygnisfive> compose f g
01:42:15 <psygnisfive> and then this would be applied to a dummy and a value
01:42:29 <tromp_> but you can also disallow any nesting of more than 2 lambdas, which would forbid that
01:42:37 <psygnisfive> what?
01:43:40 <tromp_> you can ask what functions can be written with de bruijn indices <= 2
01:43:48 <psygnisfive> what
01:43:56 <oklofok> :P
01:44:06 <ehird> err what is unclear about what tromp_ is saying?
01:44:39 <psygnisfive> everything
01:44:52 <psygnisfive> im not sure if he's even talking about the same things i a
01:45:03 <tromp_> so you can only the two variables bond by the 2 directly enclosing lambdass
01:45:09 <tromp_> only use
01:45:17 <psygnisfive> what?
01:45:19 <oklofok> hmm
01:45:21 <psygnisfive> are you speaking english?
01:45:32 <oklofok> tromp_: well there are other universal combinator sets
01:45:38 <oklofok> maybe one only needs two
01:45:44 <oklofok> psygnisfive: no it's finnish
01:45:49 <psygnisfive> could be!
01:46:01 <psygnisfive> but theres too few vowels and no umlauts
01:46:01 <tromp_> they all have a combinator on >= 3 arguments
01:46:10 <oklofok> hmm interesting
01:46:31 <oklofok> more interesting than that quantifier thing psygnisfive told me about yesterday
01:46:32 <tromp_> i suspect that has been proven necessary
01:46:43 <oklofok> probably, if it's necessary
01:46:57 <oklofok> but it's not like it would be a millenium problem even if it was not solved
01:47:04 <oerjan> so, in essence, no closures, i think
01:47:10 <psygnisfive> what the fuck are you people talking about, jesus.
01:47:13 <oklofok> :D
01:47:20 <psygnisfive> are you all on drugs, god
01:47:49 <oklofok> oerjan: elaborate
01:47:54 <oerjan> psygnisfive: if a lambda expression can only mention the variables of the innermost lambda
01:48:02 <oklofok> oerjan: two innermost
01:48:15 <psygnisfive> oerjan: yes? go on?
01:48:17 <oerjan> so you have no direct access to outer ones
01:48:25 <psygnisfive> i didnt say that at all
01:48:37 <psygnisfive> i didnt say that the binary lambdas couldnt do that
01:48:42 <psygnisfive> i dont think anyone did, actually
01:48:46 <oklofok> psygnisfive: i don't think tromp_'s had anything to do with yours
01:48:48 <oerjan> psygnisfive: we are trying to make a new restriction so it actually becomes interesting, duh
01:49:06 <psygnisfive> ok so its got nothing to do with what i mentioned.
01:49:07 <oerjan> since we all agree yours is too easy to circumvent
01:49:16 <oklofok> psygnisfive: it has LC and the number 2.
01:49:21 <psygnisfive> :p
01:49:42 <oerjan> now since you have no access to outer lambdas, you in essence don't need full closures for your functions
01:49:52 <oerjan> or so i think
01:49:59 <psygnisfive> sorry so whats the formalism you're proposing, oerjan?
01:50:05 <oerjan> since you only need access to the arguments
01:50:08 <oklofok> oerjan: but you have access to the outer function, or am i misunderstanding something?
01:50:55 <oklofok> right "directly enclosing", so it's basically psygnisfive's but with a stronger limit
01:51:17 <psygnisfive> examples?
01:51:18 <oklofok> hmm sleep.
01:51:22 <oklofok> psygnisfive: never!
01:51:23 <oklofok> ->
01:51:29 <psygnisfive> night oklo
01:51:30 <psygnisfive> <3
01:51:34 <psygnisfive> sleep well darling
01:51:54 <oerjan> \x,y -> (\a,b -> a b) (\c,d -> c) (x y) would be an example
01:52:02 <oerjan> er wait
01:52:25 <psygnisfive> that seems like it would do nothing interesting
01:52:40 <oerjan> \x,y -> (\a,b -> a b b) (\c,d -> c) (x y y)
01:52:48 <oerjan> need to apply to pairs as well
01:53:00 <psygnisfive> \x,y -> (\a,b -> a b b) (\c,d -> c) (x y y) huh
01:53:04 <psygnisfive> thats
01:53:25 <oerjan> just an example of what's allowed
01:53:26 <psygnisfive> \x,y -> (\c,d -> c) (x y y) (x y y)
01:53:32 <psygnisfive> \x,y -> x y y
01:53:58 <oerjan> indeed. i think reductions may preserve this property?
01:54:21 <psygnisfive> well, what i mean is, that function you described is just "apply" :P
01:54:49 <psygnisfive> for pseudo-unary functions.
01:54:57 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i'm just showing the syntax, don't expect it to be interesting yet.
01:55:06 <psygnisfive> what syntax?
01:55:09 <oerjan> maybe there are no interesting functions definable this way
01:55:40 <oerjan> x and y can only be mentioned on the top level inside \x,y
01:55:48 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:55:51 <psygnisfive> oh i see what you mean.
01:57:00 <oerjan> so in essence _all_ lambda expressions are closed terms
01:57:15 <psygnisfive> so that \x,y -> E, where, if E contains a lambda, that lambda cannot contain x or y inside it.
01:57:33 <oerjan> right
01:58:40 <psygnisfive> indeed i think this removes closures.
01:58:43 <oerjan> and if an expression is applied, it must be to an even number of arguments
01:58:45 <psygnisfive> but i think that's it, no?
01:59:49 <psygnisfive> do you need closures?
02:00:03 <psygnisfive> no. SKI doesnt have closures.
02:00:05 <psygnisfive> does it?
02:00:09 <psygnisfive> ah yes, for K
02:00:59 <psygnisfive> so i guess in some sense you're limiting the calculus to whatever you can do with I and S
02:01:12 <oerjan> actually S too, when you partially apply it
02:01:20 <psygnisfive> true enough.
02:01:23 <psygnisfive> hmm.
02:04:34 <oerjan> (\x,y -> x x y)(\x,y -> x x y)(\x,y -> x x y) <-- at least we have nontermination
02:05:14 <psygnisfive> or just \x,y -> x x x will do it for any second argument
02:05:36 <psygnisfive> (\x,y -> x x x) (\x,y -> x x x) _
02:05:38 <tromp_> why not just (\x x x)(\x x x) ?
02:05:47 <psygnisfive> because that has no right hand side!
02:05:54 <oerjan> (\x,y -> x x y)(\x,y -> x y x)(\x,y -> y x x)
02:06:01 <psygnisfive> :o
02:06:37 <oerjan> tromp_: even number of arguments required
02:06:49 <psygnisfive> right hand sides even more so :P
02:07:59 <oerjan> oh right D
02:08:02 <oerjan> :
02:08:05 <psygnisfive> D:
02:08:06 <psygnisfive> :D
02:08:16 <psygnisfive> D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
02:08:25 <oerjan> MAKE UP YOUR MIND
02:09:02 <oerjan> the Escher Smiley
02:09:32 <psygnisfive> so what kinds of computations can we have if we only can only have bound variables at the top levels of lambdas?
02:09:37 <oerjan> now we just need to draw it on a mobius strip
02:11:03 <psygnisfive> can such a system be TC?
02:11:26 <psygnisfive> can we fake closure?
02:11:47 <oerjan> the requirement that applications must be full is also important, i think
02:12:38 <oerjan> or wait is it
02:12:47 <psygnisfive> well lets just look at normal LC
02:12:50 <psygnisfive> with top-level only
02:13:47 <oerjan> actually i think it is still preserved under reductions even if partially applied, at least leftmost ones?
02:14:04 <oerjan> er
02:14:36 <psygnisfive> ]hm hm
02:16:06 <oerjan> lessee we want top-level variables only but with arbitrary number (or at least two)
02:16:24 <oerjan> so \x y z -> x y z would be allowed
02:16:56 <psygnisfive> sure why not
02:17:09 <psygnisfive> \a b c -> 1 2 3
02:17:09 <psygnisfive> :o
02:17:33 <oerjan> now if our reductions are outermost, then whatever we apply to will be closed
02:17:59 <psygnisfive> ey?
02:18:40 <oerjan> um i mean if we evaluate very lazily, then there are no free vars at that level
02:19:05 <psygnisfive> i think we need some more experience with formal proofs really to determine the power of this system
02:19:05 <psygnisfive> :p
02:19:05 <oerjan> hm actually SKI behaves that way
02:19:12 <oerjan> alas, indeed
02:19:29 <psygnisfive> but lets see if we can reformulate it as a formal grammar
02:19:35 <psygnisfive> because that we can get closer to
02:19:46 <psygnisfive> formal language theory is easy to prove over i think maybe
02:22:34 * oerjan lets the official formal linguist ponder this
02:32:34 <tromp_> any hardcore brainfuck programmers out here?
02:33:35 <tromp_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus#BLC8:_byte_sized_I.2FO has a nice challenge for you....
02:34:37 <tromp_> make that section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus#Brainfuck
02:40:00 <psygnisfive> oh thank god
02:40:04 <psygnisfive> did you clean up that page?
02:40:34 <tromp_> clean up how?
02:40:50 <psygnisfive> well before it was all <math> ... stuff
02:41:06 <psygnisfive> also, whats this lambda stuff without variables?
02:41:33 <tromp_> pls follow the link to read up on De Bruijn indices
02:42:16 <tromp_> you replace variables by a count of how far out it's binding lambda is
02:42:22 <tromp_> its
02:42:49 <psygnisfive> oh i see
02:43:02 <tromp_> so \x\y x becomes \ \ 2
02:43:11 <psygnisfive> so \x.x = \1, \x.\y.x = \\2
02:43:13 <psygnisfive> etc
02:43:16 <psygnisfive> i see i see
02:43:17 <psygnisfive> interesting
02:43:36 <tromp_> indeed
02:43:42 <tromp_> and quite useful
02:44:20 <psygnisfive> very interesting indeed
02:46:27 <psygnisfive> i wonder if theres any insights that can be gained from this.. HMM
02:53:29 <tromp_> going home. g'night folks
02:53:37 <psygnisfive> night
04:34:24 <bsmntbombdood> hmmm
04:34:40 <oerjan> hmmmm
04:34:53 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if you could write something for FUSE that can mount tarballs
04:38:54 <bsmntbombdood> tar is not meant to be random access, so you would keep a cache of offsets in the tar
04:55:41 <bsmntbombdood> my ~ has 62,000 files in it, so an 64 bit offset will take .5MB of ram
04:57:48 <pikhq> I'm sure it could.
04:58:14 <pikhq> HURD has tarfs...
04:58:41 <bsmntbombdood> compressed tarball would be more interesting
04:59:11 <pikhq> Stick the bzip2 translator on a tar file and then mount it with tarfs.
04:59:13 <pikhq> Done.
04:59:25 <bsmntbombdood> that's cheating
04:59:41 <bsmntbombdood> you don't have enough disk space to store the uncompressed version
05:00:12 <pikhq> ... And the bzip2 translator doesn't store the uncompressed version on disk.
05:00:27 <bsmntbombdood> ...but it's also not natively seekable
05:00:33 <pikhq> It's not very fast.
05:00:37 <pikhq> ;)
05:02:27 <bsmntbombdood> do you have a better idea than the quadratic time algorithm?
05:03:34 <pikhq> Don't use bzip2, dummy? :p
05:04:08 <bsmntbombdood> gzip is the same way...
05:06:21 <bsmntbombdood> i imagine you can cache compression contexts
05:06:35 <pikhq> Well... Seekable compression of some sort... Not exactly common for typical lossless compression formats.
05:07:03 <bsmntbombdood> but the would be on the order of ~32kb
05:10:35 <bsmntbombdood> doesn't need to be truly seekable, because we can make one pass over it
05:10:50 <bsmntbombdood> to build some index information
05:15:39 <bsmntbombdood> for something like simple huffman coding, you just have to store offsets
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07:57:57 <fizzie> FUSE has got avfs (which mounts "tar and gzip files, zip, bzip2, ar and rar files"; fuse.gunzip for transparent decompression of gzip; archivemount which allows "mounting of cpio, .tar.gz, .tar.bz2 archives. Reading and writing supported."
07:58:05 <fizzie> All of them might be horribly slow, though.
07:58:46 <fizzie> I've seen one seekable bzip2 variant, done in the obvious way (reset of the bzip2 context every N bytes, plus an index of offsets to beginning of blocks).
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08:02:39 <fizzie> Not very fast if you seek around a lot and read x << N (much-less-than, not bitshift) bytes here and there.
08:14:50 <bsmntbombdood> hmm
08:15:15 <oerjan> uuy
08:15:25 <oerjan> er, wwy
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09:56:36 <AnMaster> hi ais523
09:56:40 <ais523> hi
09:58:38 <AnMaster> ais523, awesome project name: http://code.google.com/p/google-thingbrowser/
09:58:53 <ais523> a thingbrowser?
09:58:53 <AnMaster> not sure what it actually does
09:59:00 <ais523> browses things, obviously
09:59:13 <AnMaster> ais523, "The Thing Browser is a framework for loosely coupled components -- eventually, distributed objects -- that can be intuitively and securely composed by end-users."
09:59:29 <ais523> oh dear, that's marketingspeak
09:59:32 <ais523> any idea what it does in English?
09:59:36 <AnMaster> ais523, no
09:59:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I also think it is written in java
10:00:00 <AnMaster> but anyway I like the project name
10:00:13 <ais523> being written in Java doesn't automatically make something bad...
10:00:22 <AnMaster> ais523, true
10:01:25 <fizzie> While being written in an esoteric language automatically *does* make something good.
10:01:56 <ais523> or better than it would be otherwise, at least
10:01:58 <AnMaster> ais523, there is a lot more text on http://code.google.com/p/google-thingbrowser/ about it
10:02:14 * AnMaster hopes either fizzie or ais523 can decode it
10:02:31 <ais523> decoding marketingspeak hurts my brain, I'm not even sure if I dare look at it right now
10:02:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't speak marketing.
10:03:08 <ais523> I only can with great effort, well read it not speak it
10:03:12 <ais523> reading marketing is like reading machine code
10:03:26 <AnMaster> ais523, without a disassembler?
10:03:38 <ais523> sort-of with a disassembler, but it's buggy
10:03:51 <AnMaster> ah
10:04:28 <AnMaster> I can read disassembled x86 pretty well. At least if it is in AT&T syntax.
10:04:33 <AnMaster> I can't read intel syntax
10:04:46 <fizzie> I don't read marketing very well either, and I have that presentation in three hours and still haven't designed that homework for the listeners. :p
10:04:56 <ais523> I can read both asm syntaxes, although I get confused between them
10:05:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, go do it then?
10:06:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait? I thought you were a student?
10:06:30 <fizzie> Yes, well, this is a seminar course, and each presenter must design (and grade) a short homework-style thing for the others.
10:06:43 <AnMaster> ah
10:06:44 <fizzie> I assume it's a clever ploy by the course organizers to get by with less work.
10:06:48 <ais523> fizzie: how many people are on it?
10:06:58 <ais523> doing one homework for each other person in your class must be pretty awful
10:07:19 <fizzie> ais523: Just 12, if I counted right. And the homework should be something that "does not take more than half an hour to answer".
10:07:41 <ais523> ok, so you'll be spending a little under 5 and a half hours doing it then
10:08:42 <fizzie> Yes. Well, in theory. In fact I haven't actually answered the homework thing given by last week's presentation-doer yet either; should do that too.
10:09:39 <fizzie> At least the ten-page article and the presentation slides are sort-of finished, so I'm not completely... what is the idiom? Screwed?
10:10:20 <ais523> screwed is one possibility, yes
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10:27:43 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/ <-- wow
10:30:11 <oklofok> 5 and a half hours of homework is less than pretty much any of our courses have
10:30:16 <oklofok> except the ones that don't have homework
10:30:38 <fizzie> The homework in this one is supposed to be a pretty small part of the overall work-to-do.
10:30:52 <oklofok> usually it's more like 2-4 per week for the 6 weeks (or something) the courses last
10:30:59 <oklofok> ah
10:33:27 <oklofok> well. gotta go read my booker ->
10:36:22 <fizzie> Your bookie.
10:50:56 <fizzie> The homework, it is done. (I mean the questions for others, not the one given by last week's guy.) And with something like two hours to spare. Now I should print dead-tree copies for everyone of both my slides and the actual article; that's something like 15*(10+4) pages, even if I print the slides with four-slides-per-page.
10:56:07 <fizzie> Oh; the instructiomotions have been changed, and it's now only the slides. I guess that makes more sense.
11:05:18 <oklofok> hmm
11:05:26 <oklofok> what was the last guy's question?
11:05:36 <oklofok> i can probably solve it with a glance
11:05:40 <oklofok> cuz i know my signals.
11:05:50 <oklofok> (*at)
11:07:13 <fizzie> It's about microphone arrays for speech recognition, and it's a pretty free-form question; we're meant to pick one application that actually uses that stuff, and then answer (a) how many microphones, (b) in what sort of array and (c) what are they used for.
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11:08:46 <oklofok> well this is just a hunch but (a) 7 (b) an array of 7 (c) speech recognition
11:09:17 <fizzie> Thanks for the help, but I think I'll write a slightly different answer here.
11:09:38 <oklofok> well yeah i guess you don't learn if you cheat
11:12:07 <oklofok> yay coffees are done, maybe some more readings, of the bookie ->
11:12:12 <oklofok> bookance
11:15:02 <oklofok> wow
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11:15:26 <oklofok> i spilled all of my coffee on a pile of papers
11:15:33 <oklofok> so now i get to make more coffee!
11:15:35 <oklofok> :D
11:15:38 <oklofok> life is so awesome
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11:43:33 <AnMaster> ais523, http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/
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14:07:34 <Mony> plop
14:07:39 <ais523> hi Mony
14:07:52 <Mony> how are you ?
14:08:03 <ais523> slightly tired, slightly overworked
14:08:40 <fizzie> Phew, presentation done; now to listen to the other speaker for today.
14:08:42 <Mony> heh
14:46:00 <fizzie> Yay, I had an almost exactly 30 minutes (the time given in the specification) long talk even though I did slides for it half-asleep at 03am and didn't prepare the actual presentationary part even once.
14:47:08 <Mony> huge http://www.geekologie.com/2009/03/real_life_spiderman_paralyzed.php
14:47:32 <oklofok> well you're a scientsist now, get used to it
14:48:23 <fizzie> The URL seems to suggest that a spiderman got paralyzed, but it was in fact almost the opposite.
14:48:27 <ais523> hmm... it seems from the Slashdot discussion that the spider was probably irrelevant in that, but it makes a good story
14:48:37 <Mony> lol fizzie
14:49:00 <Mony> the URL are misleading
14:52:13 <oklofok> "great now everybody's gonna try it" :D
14:52:32 <Mony> lol
14:52:50 <fizzie> Next: a three-page report in Swedish, delivered tomorrow. Maybe I could subcontract AnMaster or someone to do it...
14:53:47 <oklofok> well i have about 500 pages to read until monday!
14:54:11 <oklofok> i'm assuming this is a topping contest
14:54:30 <Mony> fizzie, are you swedish or are you just learning swedish ?
14:55:06 <oklofok> i don't think either
14:56:28 <fizzie> Well, I mean, technically speaking I guess I should be learning it. There is an obligatory Swedish exam part of our study curriculum (it's in the law, even), and I thought I'd get it done easier by doing it in course form.
14:56:48 <ais523> fizzie: what nationality are you?
14:56:53 <fizzie> Finnish.
14:57:06 <fizzie> This is a bilingual country.
14:57:13 <Mony> sweet
14:57:56 <fizzie> 5.6 % actually speak Swedish, but everyone's supposed to be able to.
14:59:52 <oklofok> ime most people are
14:59:57 <oklofok> (to some extent)
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15:01:37 <fizzie> Yes, I guess so.
15:01:56 <Mony> i went to Sweden during February, it's a great place
15:05:39 <fizzie> [translated from the assignment] "Before you start writing you should make sure you understand the *purpose* for your report. *Why* are you writing it and *to whom* is it meant for?" I have a hunch for most the answers are "because it is required of us" and "to the teacher".
15:05:55 <ais523> yep, typical teachers
15:06:36 <fizzie> I think we were also instructed to avoid writing it so that it looks like it's written for the teacher to read.
15:07:02 <ais523> Do this work, and also come up with a plausible reason for doing it unrelated to this course!
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15:28:02 <ehird> 08:59 AnMaster: ais523, "The Thing Browser is a framework for loosely coupled components -- eventually, distributed objects -- that can be intuitively and securely composed by end-users."
15:28:11 <ehird> err that sort of makes sense…
15:28:22 <ais523> well yes, that doesn't prevent it being marketingspeak though
15:28:34 <ehird> i mean, composing objects is like feeding the result of a function into another, pretty much, like composing "addition", "text form field" and "label" to make an addition-calculator app thingy
15:28:50 <ehird> and the distributed thing means the components'll go over the interwebs eventually
15:29:00 <ehird> and the intuitive part means, uh, you can use a gooey interface to do it
15:30:45 <ehird> the google- part means google own it :P
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15:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is the thing useful for? It doesn't say really
15:37:15 <ehird> what do you mean?
15:37:21 <ehird> it does certain things, I just described what they are
15:37:31 <ehird> what to do with them is, presumably, your problem.
15:37:46 <AnMaster> heh
15:37:50 <ais523> newsflash: Google develop complicated thingbrowser technology, are waiting for AnMaster to tell them what to do with it
15:37:57 <AnMaster> well I was looking for something else when I ran into that project
15:37:58 <ehird> :D
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15:38:10 <ehird> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a_0CHRWCFx4w&refer=home
15:38:11 <ehird> wut
15:38:16 <ehird> ibm buying sun
15:38:26 * AnMaster checks date
15:38:27 <ais523> not finalised yet
15:38:28 <AnMaster> no not yet...
15:38:35 <ais523> but yes, it's recent news
15:38:42 <ehird> did I say bought
15:38:55 <ais523> also, Dell have announced a laptop that's suspiciously similar to a macbook air, but worse
15:39:13 <ehird> always the innovator
15:39:13 <ehird> s
15:39:18 <ehird> wow
15:39:18 <ehird> that is ugly
15:39:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also my "checks date" was a reference to 1 April
15:39:24 <ehird> AnMaster: ah :P
15:40:10 <ehird> see, I didn't think there could be a stupider laptop than the macbook air
15:40:13 <ehird> now I've been proven wrong.
15:40:28 <ais523> by the way, it's also more expensive and less powerfu
15:40:30 <ais523> *powerful
15:40:37 <ais523> hmm... power-fu sounds kind-of impressive
15:40:59 <ehird> it's also probably heavier
15:41:13 <ais523> yep
15:41:27 <ehird> wow, why on earth :P
15:41:40 <ais523> well, it does have a few things that the macbook air doesn't, like bluray drives
15:41:55 <ehird> blu-ray? you mean that thing nobody uses?
15:42:07 <ehird> although the macbook air doesn't even have a cd drive...
15:42:09 <ais523> well, it is starting to catch on, at least more people use it than its rivals
15:42:17 <ais523> but that's mostly for watching films
15:42:23 <ehird> that's because it only had one rival and they dropped out :P
15:42:27 <AnMaster> well it is better than no cd drive indeed.
15:42:30 <ais523> and a macbook-air-like thing strikes me as not being ideal for filmwatching
15:42:39 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you upgrade the OS on macbook air?
15:42:41 <ehird> ais523: You're meant to buy the films from itunes
15:42:44 <AnMaster> or install another one?
15:43:01 <AnMaster> does it support network booting or such?
15:43:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Plug it via usb into another computer, put in upgrade CD. Or, use software update to install a minor upgrade.
15:43:08 <ais523> AnMaster: probably it supports Parallels
15:43:19 <ais523> and you can get USB CD drives
15:43:24 <ais523> or just have the OS on a USB stick
15:43:30 <ehird> yes, you can buy an external cd drive
15:43:52 <AnMaster> oh yes I remember now, the one you couldn't use with anything else and didn't work if you used an usb hub
15:43:53 <AnMaster> right?
15:43:59 <ehird> ?
15:44:10 <ehird> uh, dunno about the hub hting
15:44:12 <ehird> but probably the former
15:44:25 <ehird> I don't think the Macbook air's target market is tinkerers
15:44:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember there was some external usb based CD drive that apple released a month or so after the macbook air. IIRC it didn't work if you did: air - hub - cd drive, only like: air - cd drive
15:45:04 <AnMaster> because apple did something weird to make it unusable with anything but air
15:45:08 <ehird> the superdrive; that's quite possible about the hub, odd though
15:45:20 <ais523> is a superdrive like a mighty mouse?
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15:45:37 <ehird> ais523: that name is really old; it used to mean the floppy drives
15:45:45 <ehird> "SuperDrive is a trademark used by Apple Inc. for two different storage drives: from 1988–1999 to refer to a high-density floppy disk drive capable of reading all major 3.5" disk formats"
15:45:54 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Applesuperdrive.png <- Macbook air thang
15:46:01 <ehird> oddly big
15:46:04 <ais523> there is only one major 3.5 inch disk format nowadays
15:46:11 <ais523> although there were more back then
15:46:22 <ehird> ais523: there's no major floppy formats nowadays
15:46:29 <ehird> they're completely dead
15:47:02 <ais523> I don't know, I've been known to use floppies to transfer files from my windows 95 computer to my windows XP computer, or vice versa
15:47:08 <ehird> ais523: "windows 95"
15:47:11 <ehird> that's also dead :P
15:47:12 <ehird> oh, iphone os 3.0 will finally offer system-wide cut, copy and paste. how *revolutionary*.
15:47:15 <fizzie> A SuperDrive was an option for this iBook I didn't get, since I already had a DVD burninator. Now it's a completely superless drive.
15:47:27 <ais523> although for really big transfers I use XPDT, it's a program I wrote specifically for the task of transferring files between windows XP and windows 95
15:47:36 <ehird> fizzie: the only cd drives apple sells now are superdrives
15:47:43 <AnMaster> ais523, does the dell one have ethernet?
15:47:44 <ehird> ais523: what does it do?
15:47:58 <AnMaster> it is fairly useful, like when you are configuring your wireless access point
15:48:08 <ais523> ehird: just splurges the data through a serial port as fast as possible
15:48:14 <ehird> heh
15:48:15 <ais523> with minimal protocol involved
15:48:24 <ehird> AnMaster: why on earth would you use wireless on a desktop machine
15:48:25 <ais523> it works about 2/3 of the time
15:48:26 <ehird> it's so slow for that
15:48:37 <ais523> the rest of the time, packets get dropped and it doesn't notice
15:48:38 <ehird> i mean, compared to ethernet the speed is excruciating
15:48:39 <AnMaster> ehird, err talking about the dell laptop
15:48:42 <ehird> oh
15:48:43 <AnMaster> not everyone has more than one computer
15:48:51 <ehird> I don't either
15:48:52 <ehird> but
15:48:55 <AnMaster> anyway what if a person only has a macbook air
15:48:58 <ehird> you don't.
15:49:06 <ehird> if it's your only computer you're not in the target market
15:49:13 <fizzie> Yes, the Dell laptop's got the etherweb.
15:49:14 <AnMaster> ah
15:49:45 <ehird> the target market mainly consists of, well, people who go to starbucks, order a latte while reading pitchfork reviews. As far as I can tell.
15:50:12 <ais523> I assumed it was aimed at people who like to think they're stylish and have a lot of disposable income
15:50:18 <fizzie> There was that one nifty proggie (magelink?) that did file transfer over IPX networks. Useful since TCP/IP networking in DOS is always a bit iffy.
15:50:45 <ehird> ais523: that's a superset of what I said
15:50:56 <ais523> I wrote a remote binary diff program that could be used even when the two files you were diffing were on different computers that weren't connected in any way at all
15:51:15 <ehird> the macbook air lets you choose your own colours; I'm going to go configure one like Hot Dog Stand.
15:51:21 <ehird> take that, design
15:51:24 <fizzie> Did LapLink do serial lines too? (The parallel port laplink connection was faster, at least.)
15:52:08 <ehird> hm wait, that's a third party case
15:52:26 <ehird> how silly of me to think that apple would let a user tarnish their design! :P
15:52:37 <fizzie> Oh, oh, and SMODEM, now *that* was a revolutionary idea. You could do BBS-chatting *while downloading a file*, instead of just looking at the ZMODEM file download dialog for two hours.
15:53:21 <Deewiant> But then your download would take four hours so you preferred to just stare anyway
15:53:44 <fizzie> I didn't; was it really a lot slower?
15:54:19 <Deewiant> I was referring more to the fact that you're using up bandwidth for the chatting
15:54:40 <Deewiant> I never actually used BBSs back in the day (only a few times late in the day) so I don't know
15:54:46 <fizzie> Oh.
15:55:14 <fizzie> Well, the chatting really didn't use that much bandwidth.
15:55:30 <fizzie> Bandwidth of a human/keyboard combination is pretty low, after all.
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15:55:49 <Deewiant> There's always protocol overhead.
15:56:04 <fizzie> Not much if it's a simple one.
15:56:38 <AnMaster> <ais523> I wrote a remote binary diff program that could be used even when the two files you were diffing were on different computers that weren't connected in any way at all <-- how did it work? Checksum of blocks?
15:57:14 <ais523> yep, checksum
15:57:19 <fizzie> Smodem is also (according to Wikipedia) more efficient than Zmodem anyway, so maybe the chatting overhead just evens the scales.
15:57:32 <AnMaster> ais523, that you had to enter manually on the other computer or something?
15:57:50 <ais523> no, both computers displayed checksums, you merely had to compare them
15:57:55 <ais523> as in, same or different
15:58:02 <AnMaster> ah
15:58:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hm did it use binary search?
15:58:53 <AnMaster> if not I got an interesting idea just now...
15:59:03 <ais523> yep, binary search
15:59:03 <ehird> ...
15:59:04 <ehird> what
15:59:07 <AnMaster> ais523, aha
15:59:08 <ais523> what's the idea anyway?
15:59:13 <ehird> oh, misread
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15:59:41 <AnMaster> ais523, "checksum file", ask user if same, if not display checksum for each half of the file, ask users which parts are different
15:59:51 <AnMaster> you may end up with more than one different block of course
16:00:03 <AnMaster> so not exactly binary search, but a related concept
16:00:13 <ehird> err
16:00:16 <ehird> related in that it's a search?
16:00:18 <ais523> you can do the search from both ends to find where the different block starts and end
16:00:18 <ehird> :|
16:00:19 <ais523> *ends
16:00:27 <ehird> Holy shit
16:00:29 <ehird> Parrot 1.0 is out
16:00:33 <ehird> ..................................................................
16:00:34 <ehird> : |
16:00:34 <ais523> ehird: I was going to mention that to you
16:00:39 <ehird> : |
16:00:39 <ais523> but you mentioned it to me first
16:00:43 <ehird> | :
16:00:44 <AnMaster> ehird, same idea as git bisect
16:00:56 <ehird> (this is me stretching out in time, then going faster than light thus warping backwards)
16:00:58 <AnMaster> ais523, parrot? as in perl6!?
16:00:59 <ehird> | :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
16:01:01 <AnMaster> WHAT?!!
16:01:01 <ehird> > >>>>><<<<<
16:01:03 <ehird> **BAM**
16:01:03 <ais523> AnMaster: no, just the VM
16:01:06 <ehird> .
16:01:06 <AnMaster> oh
16:01:07 <ehird> .
16:01:07 -!- M0ny has joined.
16:01:08 <ehird> .
16:01:09 <ehird> .
16:01:09 <AnMaster> was scared there
16:01:11 <ehird> .
16:01:13 <ehird> .
16:01:15 <AnMaster> ......
16:01:15 <ehird> .
16:01:16 <ais523> although it still scores quite highly on hell-freezes-over stakes
16:01:17 <ehird> .
16:01:22 * ehird dies
16:01:22 <AnMaster> ais523, yes indeed.
16:01:27 <ehird> Metadies, rather; I'm still a ghost.
16:01:32 <AnMaster> hah
16:01:34 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehirdghostghost.
16:01:39 <ehirdghostghost> Metawhooooh
16:01:41 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, a ghost with bad memory :P
16:01:54 <ehirdghostghost> Shut up or I'll metawalkrightthroughyou.
16:02:51 <ais523> also, it seems that a bat managed to get into space
16:02:58 <ais523> by hitching a lift on the outside of a space shuttle
16:03:07 <AnMaster> ais523, it died?
16:03:10 <AnMaster> I assume
16:03:13 <ehirdghostghost> ...
16:03:14 <ehirdghostghost> nooooooooooooooo
16:03:16 <ehirdghostghost> it survived fine
16:03:18 <ehirdghostghost> what a ridiculous question
16:03:24 <ehirdghostghost> i mean seriously.
16:03:27 <ais523> AnMaster: nobody's quite sure
16:03:36 <ais523> I suppose there's an offchance it's dormant, cryogenically preserved
16:03:50 <ehirdghostghost> Err, frozen != cryogenically preserved
16:03:52 <ais523> but death does seem like a likely option for an animal catching a ride on the outside of a space shuttle
16:04:03 <ehirdghostghost> Unless there's cryopreservant in space
16:04:05 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah *thinks about re-entry*
16:05:05 <ais523> <Anonymous Coward> 30 feet off the pad the engines gave out and the bat carried them into orbit.
16:05:26 <ehirdghostghost> :D
16:05:32 <ehirdghostghost> so guys
16:05:40 <ehirdghostghost> will MATT WRIGHT'S CGI ARCHIVE scripts work in perl6/parrot?
16:05:47 <ehirdghostghost> ? ??
16:05:52 <ehirdghostghost> my business depends on formmail
16:06:00 <ais523> I don't know
16:06:06 <ehirdghostghost> :D
16:06:10 <ais523> you'd probably have to run them through 5to6 first
16:06:15 <ehirdghostghost> I was joking ;_;
16:06:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hah
16:07:04 <AnMaster> ais523, there is a 5to6? It sounds like a parody of the Python 2to3...
16:07:11 <ehirdghostghost> ... parody?
16:07:11 <ais523> yes, of course there is
16:07:17 <ehirdghostghost> gee, <version>to<version>! hahahahaahaha!
16:07:21 <ehirdghostghost> so funny
16:07:31 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, well I wonder what will happen when python 6 is released
16:07:35 <ais523> 5to6 came first IIRC, although obviously it hasn't been released
16:07:39 <AnMaster> will there be two 5to6 then
16:07:49 <ais523> AnMaster: by then we'll have invented something better than numbers
16:07:50 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: that'll never happen
16:07:53 <ais523> and numbers will be obsolete
16:08:02 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, oh?
16:08:16 <ehirdghostghost> Blue moons get tired of waiting for python's major releases
16:08:39 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, it is still way shorter than waiting for perl major releases!
16:08:52 <ais523> no, it's just 6 in particular that's slow
16:08:59 <AnMaster> I see
16:09:01 <ais523> because it's such an insane project
16:09:05 <ehirdghostghost> no, perl major releases are fast until 6
16:09:16 <AnMaster> s/are/were/?
16:09:17 <ehirdghostghost> consider, it got to 5 in, what, 10 years?
16:09:26 <ehirdghostghost> python's been around for 10 years
16:09:28 <ehirdghostghost> it's only got to 3
16:09:40 <AnMaster> hm
16:09:48 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, perl must be older than that?
16:09:58 <ais523> python's that old?
16:10:02 <ehirdghostghost> perl: 1988
16:10:05 <ehirdghostghost> python: 1990
16:10:17 <ais523> I'm surprised
16:10:21 <ehirdghostghost> hmm, python 1991
16:10:27 <ehirdghostghost> so it's 18
16:10:30 <ais523> also, perl caught on a lot faster than python did, it seems
16:10:31 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, that is nowhere near 10 years indeed
16:10:37 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: ... yes it is?
16:10:39 <ehirdghostghost> it's 18 years
16:10:43 <ehirdghostghost> o_O
16:10:44 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, that is closer to 20
16:10:51 <ehirdghostghost> well, fine
16:10:56 <ehirdghostghost> so, 18 years and python's up to 3
16:11:06 <ehirdghostghost> 22 (it's 1987) years and perl's up to 5
16:11:15 <ehirdghostghost> and, well, perl 5 came out in the 90s
16:11:34 <ehirdghostghost> perl hit v5 at 6 years old
16:11:39 <ehirdghostghost> so, anyway, python's major releases are slow.
16:11:42 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, perl show a non-linear release interval
16:11:57 <AnMaster> someone should plot both perl and python releases
16:11:59 <ehirdghostghost> by the time 6 is out development will have been dropped due to the singularity causing the best programming language conceivable to be created :P
16:12:02 <AnMaster> in some interesting way
16:12:05 * AnMaster looks at fizzie
16:12:19 <ais523> ehirdghostghost: but what if that language /is/ Perl6?
16:12:26 <ehirdghostghost> ais523: holy shit, you're on to something
16:12:34 <ehirdghostghost> I bet one of perl6's features is so advanced it needs strong AI to implement
16:12:38 <AnMaster> hm
16:12:42 <ais523> well, they made some changes
16:12:44 <ehirdghostghost> and I bet perl6's first complete implementation will be released in 2012
16:12:49 <ais523> IIRC, the syntax is no longer TC
16:12:51 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, no. It isn't strong AI. It is something worse
16:12:52 <AnMaster> ...
16:12:53 <ehirdghostghost> shit, guys, somebody kill larry wall, quickly! :P
16:12:57 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: strong AI isn't good or bad
16:13:03 <ehirdghostghost> it's just "real" AI
16:13:21 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, Perl 5 == TC grammar. And ais523 said "the syntax is no longer TC"... Right. It is Super-TC
16:13:25 <AnMaster> that is why it takes so long
16:13:32 <ehirdghostghost> *shit*
16:13:32 <ais523> no, they made it actually parsable
16:13:37 <ehirdghostghost> ais523: stop ruining our fun
16:13:40 <ais523> not only that, they're maintaining a regexp that parses the whole thing
16:13:41 <ehirdghostghost> that's AnMaster's job
16:13:44 <ais523> which is kind-of insane in itself
16:13:59 <ehirdghostghost> ais523: well, perl6 regexps are really full contextual grammars
16:14:03 <ais523> yep
16:14:03 <ehirdghostghost> with a verboser syntax, right/
16:14:07 <ehirdghostghost> and the // is just shorthand
16:14:09 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, and I heard some rumours about trunk containing a non-euclidean parser to manage it
16:14:11 <ais523> whilst simultaneously still being regexps
16:14:26 <ehirdghostghost> ais523: well, they're certainly not regular (they're far more powerful), and since they have the full syntax they're not "expressions" either
16:14:33 <ehirdghostghost> so // is a regex, what you're talking about is a perl6 parser
16:14:40 <ehirdghostghost> it just so happens that regexs turn into perl6 parsers on evaluation
16:14:45 <ais523> hmm... they still work much the same way as, say, cyclexa
16:14:54 <ais523> or PCRE
16:14:56 <AnMaster> ais523, also I agree with ehirdghostghost, stop ruining the fun
16:15:05 <ehirdghostghost> 15:14 AnMaster: ais523, also I agree with ehirdghostghost, stop ruining the fun
16:15:09 <ehirdghostghost> I will treasure this forever.
16:15:20 <ais523> hmm, and on the same day as parrot's released too
16:15:23 <ais523> maybe hell really has frozen over
16:15:28 <AnMaster> ais523, or worse
16:15:38 * ais523 awaits someone coming in and announcing a BF interp written in Malbolge
16:15:44 <ehirdghostghost> I'd better start being a good christian; I was fine with Hell because hey, it's warm right?
16:16:03 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, yes, all computers overheat there.
16:16:09 <AnMaster> anyway heaven is warmer.
16:16:09 <ehirdghostghost> ooh
16:16:17 <ehirdghostghost> maybe Hell, newly-frozen, is the ultimate way to overclock
16:16:40 * AnMaster remember reading some joke proof based on combining quotations from the bible with physical laws to calculate the temperature in heaven and hell
16:16:42 <ehirdghostghost> seventy core 60ghz? no problem, just stick a 286 in Hell
16:16:51 <ais523> only on #esoteric could people try to figure out ways to take advantage of hell freezing over
16:16:58 <ehirdghostghost> :-D
16:16:59 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
16:18:50 -!- Mony has quit (Connection timed out).
16:19:00 <AnMaster> btw http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm (it also has another proof showing that hell is even hotter)
16:19:23 -!- ais523 has quit ("going home, bye everyone").
16:19:41 <AnMaster> hm
16:21:41 <ehirdghostghost> So, Duke Nukem Forever will be written in Perl6.
16:21:48 <ehirdghostghost> With some parts in raw Parrot for speed.
16:21:59 <AnMaster> hah
16:23:53 <ehirdghostghost> man, I hope duke nukem forever is really really good. it better be.
16:26:48 -!- Asztal_ has quit (".").
16:33:17 <AnMaster> hm...
16:33:41 <ehirdghostghost> hmmmmmmmmmmm.
16:34:24 <AnMaster> to me it sounds like perl 6 is suffering second system syndrome
16:34:31 <ehirdghostghost> yes, very
16:34:58 <AnMaster> it may be the issue with DNF too I guess.
16:35:12 <ehirdghostghost> can you do that to a game? I'm not sure
16:35:55 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, iirc DNF was a non-first game in a series of duke nukem?
16:36:05 <AnMaster> well that was awkward
16:36:09 <ehirdghostghost> s/was/is/
16:36:14 <ehirdghostghost> but, yes, except
16:36:24 <ehirdghostghost> I don't see how it applies to a game
16:36:45 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, so you want to make a better game next time. That looks even better and with even more levels/maps/items/enemies/whatever
16:36:57 <ehirdghostghost> Well, true
16:37:12 <ehirdghostghost> Except that, second system effect for games makes them better
16:37:16 <ehirdghostghost> For software it makes it worse
16:37:18 <AnMaster> sounds like potential SSS there...
16:37:30 <ehirdghostghost> For games you get rabidly perfected gameplay; for software you get bloat
16:37:34 <AnMaster> err.. wut?
16:37:38 <ehirdghostghost> I don't think I've ever seen a game I could call bloated
16:37:44 <ehirdghostghost> In games, bloat = more expansiveness
16:37:45 <AnMaster> game is not a subgroup of software?
16:37:51 <ehirdghostghost> Yes...
16:37:56 <ehirdghostghost> I meant non-game software.
16:37:58 <AnMaster> ah
16:38:22 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, I think a game that doesn't fit on a single DVD is bloated.
16:38:38 <ehirdghostghost> See, that's entirely irrelevant to the actual gameplay
16:38:45 <ehirdghostghost> In gameplay, bloat is meaningless
16:38:50 <ehirdghostghost> It's not bloat, it's expansiveness
16:38:57 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, well depends. You need a very powerful computer to handle a bloated game
16:39:10 <ehirdghostghost> That's not related to gameplay
16:39:16 <AnMaster> remember those demos back when DOS was the common OS?
16:39:34 <AnMaster> some of them seemed to have better graphics than games released a few years later...
16:39:50 <AnMaster> and they were way smaller
16:39:59 <AnMaster> sure a demo is more limited in scope yes
16:40:04 <AnMaster> but even so...
16:40:22 <ehirdghostghost> mm
16:40:25 <ehirdghostghost> demos are very impressive
16:40:40 <ehirdghostghost> The demoscene is just awesome
16:41:02 <AnMaster> yep, I remember seeing quite fast real time software ray tracing. Low resolution compared to what we are used to these days, but still
16:41:12 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: have you watched any of the modern (post-2000) demos? They have the best 3d graphics I've ever seen; really realistic
16:41:21 <ehirdghostghost> It's crazy
16:41:32 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, no I haven't really.
16:41:36 <AnMaster> Any specific ones you recommend?
16:41:49 <ehirdghostghost> Hmm, I'll try and dig up one I really liked
16:41:52 <ehirdghostghost> Gimme a few minutes
16:42:02 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, do you need dosbox or something? Or is there a video of it
16:42:14 <ehirdghostghost> I was going to link to a video site; it uses flash but you could just extract the link
16:42:24 <ehirdghostghost> Also, this is way above DOS's capabilities
16:42:33 <AnMaster> yeah unless it was that one you used where it was embedded inside the swf
16:42:44 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, so what hardware do they use then?
16:42:53 <ehirdghostghost> Windows, mostly
16:42:59 <ehirdghostghost> The modern-3d ones
16:43:08 <AnMaster> there were two errors in that
16:43:25 <ehirdghostghost> ?
16:43:29 <AnMaster> neither windows nor dos are hardware
16:43:41 <ehirdghostghost> Hardware was what you said
16:43:43 <ehirdghostghost> I assume it was a typo
16:43:47 <ehirdghostghost> and you said hardware after I said DOS
16:44:53 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, well the "then" should have been removed indeed
16:45:03 <ehirdghostghost> well
16:45:05 <ehirdghostghost> regular hardware :P
16:45:32 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, well, regular for today or for 2 years ago?
16:45:46 <AnMaster> anyway I'll let you dig up that link
16:45:48 <ehirdghostghost> They have minimal system requirements, almost always
16:46:15 <ehirdghostghost> atm I'm trying to find the playback site
16:46:20 <ehirdghostghost> Maybe pouet.net has something
16:47:24 * ehirdghostghost listens to a .MOD while doing it for authenticity
16:47:29 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, well I know of ways how to tune programs to run very fast on amd64 but slow on intel core 2. And vice verse. So a demo tuned on an amd cpu could potentially be way slower on intel. And the reverse too
16:47:32 <ehirdghostghost> Dear God, Just ignore the fact that I'm using OS X please.
16:47:49 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: yes, but you don't understand; the demoscene tries to do the most with so little
16:47:56 <ehirdghostghost> so system requirements are basically never an issue
16:47:59 <AnMaster> 16.47:31 <ehirdghostghost> Dear God, Just ignore the fact that I'm using OS X please. <-- I will treasure this forever.
16:48:05 <ehirdghostghost> :-D
16:49:22 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, a pitty you need a dos/windows feel rather than oldstyle-unix feel. Otherwise I would ask you if it was possible to compile mosaic on OS X
16:49:36 <ehirdghostghost> It probably is possible.
16:49:41 <ehirdghostghost> With X11, of course.
16:49:47 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, it uses motif
16:49:52 <ehirdghostghost> Yes.
16:50:44 <ehirdghostghost> Eh, I'll grep my old Adium logs for it; I linked someone else to i
16:50:45 <ehirdghostghost> t
16:50:49 <AnMaster> k
16:52:35 <ehirdghostghost> % grep -i 'demo' **/*.chatlog
16:52:35 <ehirdghostghost> zsh: argument list too long: grep
16:52:40 <ehirdghostghost> >_<
16:53:56 <ehirdghostghost> Erm, I wonder what to do now.
16:54:50 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: thoughts?
16:58:48 <AnMaster> heh
16:59:09 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, find . -name '*.chatlog' -exec grep -i demo {} +
16:59:19 <ehirdghostghost> that won't print out the name :P
16:59:20 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, you may need to quote something in that for zsh
16:59:21 <AnMaster> not sure
16:59:24 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, it will
16:59:29 <ehirdghostghost> oh, it will?
16:59:29 <ehirdghostghost> okay
16:59:33 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, the + there? see it?
16:59:36 <ehirdghostghost> ah
17:00:06 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, it tells find to "pass as many files in each invocation of the command as you can without getting argument list too long"
17:00:17 <ehirdghostghost> ha
17:00:43 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, so it is possible if you just get one file in the last chunk that there will be no filename
17:00:48 <AnMaster> but most likely not
17:01:37 <ehirdghostghost> hrm
17:01:44 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, also that won't happen on linux btw. Linux dynamically decides the size that can be used for the argument list.
17:01:52 <AnMaster> there is some ulimit setting for it iirc
17:01:58 <ehirdghostghost> Surely it could go into the shell
17:02:04 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, ?
17:02:08 <ehirdghostghost> Or is it an OS-wide limitation?
17:02:12 <ehirdghostghost> If so that's stupid
17:02:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, it is a limit you can check the value of with sysconf()
17:02:44 <ehirdghostghost> yikes.
17:02:53 <AnMaster> $ getconf ARG_MAX
17:02:53 <AnMaster> 2097152
17:02:55 <ehirdghostghost> % ulimit
17:02:55 <ehirdghostghost> unlimited
17:02:59 <ehirdghostghost> That makes me feel reassured.
17:03:05 <ehirdghostghost> I don't think I'll search further; I like being unlimited. :P
17:03:08 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, unlimited what?
17:03:13 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: Unlimited.
17:03:18 <AnMaster> ulimit handle several things
17:03:19 <AnMaster> remember
17:03:24 <ehirdghostghost> Yes; they're unlimited.
17:03:26 <ehirdghostghost> Just look!
17:03:27 <AnMaster> not all no
17:03:31 <AnMaster> anyway
17:03:32 <ehirdghostghost> 16:03 ehirdghostghost: I don't think I'll search further; I like being unlimited. :P
17:03:36 <ehirdghostghost> STOP DESTROYING MY REASSURANCE :|
17:04:47 <AnMaster> I can't find the argument count in ulimit here, *greps kernel sources*
17:06:09 <ehirdghostghost> hmm, finding this link is hard
17:07:35 <AnMaster> ah
17:07:38 <AnMaster> the stack size limit
17:07:44 <AnMaster> Since Linux 2.6.23, this limit also determines the amount of space used for the process's command-line arguments and environment variables; for details, see
17:07:44 <AnMaster> execve(2).
17:07:54 <AnMaster> RLIMIT_STACK
17:08:22 <ehirdghostghost> "rootkit code to exploit major Intel chip flaw to be posted 3/19/09"
17:08:27 <ehirdghostghost> Oh, fuck.
17:08:33 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, where?
17:08:34 <ehirdghostghost> Anyone got a spare AMD chip?
17:08:41 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/39825
17:09:07 <ehirdghostghost> "The heart-stopping thing about this particular exploit is that it hides itself in the SMM space. To put that into perspective, SMM is more privileged than a hypervisor is and it's not controllable by any Operating System."
17:09:27 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, you still need to be ring 0 to do it it seems
17:10:11 <AnMaster> bad yes, but you need to be able to get your code to execute in ring 0.
17:10:41 <AnMaster> but SMM... very nasty and hard to detect indeed
17:12:11 <ehirdghostghost> i am so tired of typing 'tar xzf' and dealing with zipbombs and blarrrgh; I think I'll write a program that lets me do 'unwrap <foo>' and it figures everything out for me.
17:12:26 <ehirdghostghost> actually, OS X handles tarbombs
17:12:32 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, hm I think I saw such a program
17:12:39 <ehirdghostghost> if there's one file, it puts it in the same dir
17:12:43 <ehirdghostghost> otherwise, it makes a folder for them
17:12:57 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: can it handle stuffit expander files? i hate them so fucking much
17:13:12 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, probably not, I don't even remember the name of the program...
17:13:17 * AnMaster searches
17:13:56 <AnMaster> [N] app-arch/unp (1.0.14): Script for unpacking various file formats
17:13:56 <AnMaster> http://packages.qa.debian.org/u/unp.html
17:13:59 <AnMaster> maybe
17:14:02 <AnMaster> bbs
17:25:10 <AnMaster> back
17:26:35 <ehirdghostghost> I guess I'll write it.
17:27:02 <ehirdghostghost> Need to find open source expanders to wrap, though.
17:28:09 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, apart from stuffit that should be rather simple
17:28:23 <ehirdghostghost> Well. Yes.
17:28:36 <ehirdghostghost> But Stuffit support is quite important to me; it's an irritatingly common format.
17:28:40 <ehirdghostghost> Well not too common; still.
17:29:21 <ehirdghostghost> yay, sourceforge is down.
17:29:59 <AnMaster> pax/tar + bzip2/gzip/lzma, zip/unzip, p7zip (7z for *nix), cpio, unrar
17:30:04 <AnMaster> I suppose you don't care about shar
17:30:15 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: what's that from?
17:30:19 <ehirdghostghost> oh, right
17:30:24 <AnMaster> outdated format
17:30:28 <ehirdghostghost> Problems:
17:30:31 <ehirdghostghost> Unzip/unrar aren't open source
17:30:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, oh hm true
17:30:50 <ehirdghostghost> I mean, I could just depend on them anyway, but it'd be nice to have them open source
17:31:18 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, http://search.cpan.org/dist/Archive-Zip ?
17:31:41 <ehirdghostghost> that would be usable; It'd be nice to have something a bit less perl though
17:31:52 * ehirdghostghost googles
17:32:00 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, http://zziplib.sourceforge.net/ ?
17:32:15 <AnMaster> http://common-lisp.net/project/zip/ ?
17:32:25 <ehirdghostghost> stop it
17:32:26 <AnMaster> http://www.nih.at/libzip/ ?
17:32:27 <ehirdghostghost> I've found something
17:32:27 <AnMaster> ok
17:32:30 <AnMaster> wow at that url
17:32:33 <AnMaster> nih...
17:32:37 <ehirdghostghost> heh
17:33:00 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, this is bzip2. In parallel. http://compression.ca/pbzip2/ ?
17:33:09 <ehirdghostghost> …parallel?
17:33:11 * AnMaster just found it in his package manager
17:33:23 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, multi-core it seems
17:33:32 <ehirdghostghost> sj.
17:33:33 <ehirdghostghost> *ah
17:34:11 <AnMaster> yjod od omytrdyomh
17:34:47 <ehirdghostghost> this is not interesting :P
17:34:47 <AnMaster> idomh sm pggdry pg pmr
17:34:57 <ehirdghostghost> Pggdry pg pmr. Sounds jabberwocky.
17:35:23 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, you mean the author was a time traveler?!
17:35:31 <AnMaster> wait yes, didn't IWC say so a while back?
17:35:45 <AnMaster> or? I forgot the details
17:35:56 <ehirdghostghost> ?
17:36:29 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, the pirates and the english sailors used that phone booth to time travel before the end of the universe. Remember?
17:36:41 <ehirdghostghost> I don't read IWC.
17:36:41 <ehirdghostghost> Info-ZIP supports hardware from microcomputers all the way up to Cray supercomputers, running on almost all versions of Unix, VMS, OS/2, Windows 9x/NT/etc. (a.k.a. Win32), Windows 3.x, Windows CE, MS-DOS, AmigaDOS, Atari TOS, Acorn RISC OS, BeOS, Mac OS, SMS/QDOS, MVS and OS/390 OE, VM/CMS, FlexOS, Tandem NSK and Human68K (Japanese). There is also some (old) support for LynxOS, TOPS-20, AOS/VS and Novell NLMs. Shared libraries (DLLs) are availa
17:36:45 <ehirdghostghost> ble for Unix, OS/2, Win32 and Win16, and graphical interfaces are available for Win32, Win16, WinCE and Mac OS.
17:36:48 <ehirdghostghost> ^ good lord what the fuck
17:36:51 <AnMaster> didn't they run into Lewis Carroll
17:36:53 <AnMaster> ?
17:37:16 <AnMaster> oh ok
17:37:21 <ehirdghostghost> lewis caroll was awesome.
17:37:47 <ehirdghostghost> anyway info-zip seems to be open source, maybe
17:38:01 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, yes, but he can't possibly have known about qwerty layout and used offset of one on the layout to create jabberwocky.
17:38:05 <ehirdghostghost> i guess I'll ask Phil Katz about the license :-D
17:38:06 <AnMaster> unless he was a time traveler
17:38:11 <ehirdghostghost> /bad-taste
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17:40:53 <ehirdghostghost> As of 2007, the latest sources and binaries for Zip, UnZip, WiZ and MacZip (including encryption code) are available only at Info-ZIP's SourceForge site.
17:40:59 <ehirdghostghost> hmm, so unzip _is_ open source
17:41:24 <AnMaster> oooh xkcd today. I had a dream like that a few weeks after finishing high school...
17:41:31 <ehirdghostghost> hi tromp
17:41:48 <oklofok> maybe it was used on itself and it like... opened it
17:42:08 <oklofok> sorry my brain has gas
17:42:10 <ehirdghostghost> What would this place be without oklofok attempting to match oerjan's puns
17:45:26 <oklofok> probably just a ghost town
17:46:44 <tromp> hi , ehird
17:54:14 <fizzie> About file names, GNU grep (and I assume at least some others) has the -H (or --with-filename) flag for always printing the filename even given a single file argument.
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18:22:41 <AnMaster> bbl in a few hours
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19:40:33 <fizzie> Is "Örjan Ekeberg" the same thing as "our" oerjan?
19:40:47 <ehirdghostghost> No.
19:40:51 <ehirdghostghost> He's oerjan johannsen or something
19:41:11 <ehirdghostghost> fizzie: Øerjan Johansen.
19:41:15 <ehirdghostghost> err
19:41:17 <ehirdghostghost> Ørjan
19:41:17 <ehirdghostghost> ofc
19:41:40 <fizzie> Right, this one is a .se person anyway. Never-mind.
19:43:23 <fizzie> Should've realized from the Ö/Ø thing anyway. You just never know with computar scientsists.
19:57:39 <ehirdghostghost> AnMaster: you there?
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20:39:14 <Slereah> The binart LC article is all fucked up for the wiki code
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20:42:25 <tromp> yes, better read the Wikipedia version
20:42:43 <tromp> until ehird gets around to converting it
20:54:16 <tromp> i added a NOTE linking to the wikipedia version
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22:04:42 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, hello
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22:21:03 <AnMaster> ehirdghostghost, night
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