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00:17:18 <ehirdghostghost> "It is a logical impossibility to make a language more powerful by omitting features, no matter how bad they may be."
00:19:09 <Slereah_> What about a feature that discards all input?
00:22:37 <ehirdghostghost> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/emacs/teco.el Full circle
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00:26:54 <ehird> Ah, to live again.
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04:31:19 <oerjan> they are trees from the planet Cwarooba which get their energy from nuclear fusion of water
04:31:48 <oerjan> they're really big. also, they sometimes explode, so people don't like to live nearby.
04:32:36 <oerjan> unfortunately they may soon be dying out, as Cwarooba is turning into desert, and the new helium atmosphere doesn't really help either.
04:32:47 <oerjan> that's evolution in action for you.
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04:34:05 <oerjan> Did you find this explanation [A] Helpful [B] Unhelpful [C] Completely bonkers [D] Mad gibbering that humanity is best not knowing about
04:35:21 <oerjan> [F] More options, please [G] Fewer options, please
04:36:56 <oerjan> [H] The perfect empowerment for our client base
04:37:42 <oerjan> [I] Way out, dude [J] LOLWTFBBQ
04:38:52 <oerjan> [K] Shut up or I'll blow your brains out [I] You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
04:39:20 <oerjan> [M] You really need to work on your alphabet, dude
04:40:24 <oerjan> [N] We are _not_ amused [O] Is this going to turn into a Christmas joke, with the missing L and all?
04:40:58 <oerjan> [P] Can I be excused for a moment? [Q] Oh no, not again...
04:42:04 <oerjan> [R] Using the TIME CUBE, I proved this a long TIME ago
04:44:09 <oerjan> [S] FOR SCIENCE! [T] +++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>. [U] `.Ui
04:45:59 <oerjan> [V] Ich weiß nicht, was soll es bedeuten, Daß ich so traurig bin [W] Who forgot to pack lunch?
04:46:40 <oerjan> [X] ... [Y] Y ask Y? [Z] Is this the end?
04:47:25 <oerjan> [Æ] You should be so lucky [Ø] Yes, it's with an Ø, not Ö. [Å] We are DOOMED, DOOMED!
04:47:46 <oerjan> ERROR: Out of alphabet
05:08:27 * oerjan swats bsmntbombdood_ -----###
05:08:40 <oerjan> I'll have you know I'm perfectly sober!
05:14:14 <oerjan> also, you did not select an option.
05:35:05 <Sgeo> !bf +++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>.
05:36:36 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>.
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10:49:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: Here's the gnuplot view of those Perl releases from my "perldoc perlhist": http://zem.fi/~fis/perlreleases.png (Sorry for the positioning of labels, GNUplot+time-data is not a good combination.)
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11:53:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, that looks strange. was a perl 1.x released in 2004?
11:53:16 <fizzie> That's what my perlhist page says.
11:53:27 <fizzie> Schwern 1.0.15 2002-Dec-18 Modernization
11:53:27 <fizzie> Richard 1.0.16 2003-Dec-18
11:53:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, like security fixes to old versions or something?
11:53:47 <AnMaster> since 2.x and 3.x didn't get that
11:54:09 <fizzie> Yes; maybe there was some business-critical Perl 1 code (from 1988) that needed fixing. :p
11:54:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, the y scale, it isn't linear, and look exponential either
11:55:46 <fizzie> I think that's 1.011-to-1.014.
11:55:53 <fizzie> It's directly from the perlhist page, anyway.
11:56:45 <fizzie> The Y scale is just the index of the version, since I didn't want to write any logic that would assign a sensible numeric value to all those funky version identifiers.
11:57:29 <fizzie> An earlier version made all the "series" (separate things in the legend) equally high-in-Y-axis, but that didn't look so good.
11:58:19 <fizzie> Anyway, I'll look at Python later. I'm not quite sure how to get them to the same plot. The X axis (presumably; although they've got that from __future__ import thing going on) works the same way, but for the Y axis is less clear.
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11:59:04 <fizzie> At least with "Y == version index" the slope of the line gives some sort of information about how often they plop out releases.
11:59:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, i don't think import from __future__ thing would cause the release dates to change
11:59:23 <AnMaster> unless you plot first release with feature
11:59:29 <ais523> fizzie: did you do a graph of Python v. Perl releases, then?
11:59:34 <ais523> I know it was being discussed when I left
11:59:36 <fizzie> Yes, but there might be time-traveling involved.
11:59:36 <AnMaster> ais523, http://zem.fi/~fis/perlreleases.png
11:59:40 <fizzie> ais523: Just Perl so far.
11:59:56 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems fizzie is claiming import from __future__ results in time travel
12:00:08 <fizzie> Isn't time travel the mechanism behind it?
12:00:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, I looked at the source and it was a lot more boring than that
12:00:48 <AnMaster> just a set of flags for features to enable, features that will be on by default in future releases
12:00:56 <fizzie> Oh. Well, graphing-wise it's a relief.
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12:04:48 <ais523> interesting that there are more recent releases in the 5.8 series than the 5.10
12:04:57 <ais523> and IIRC, 5.12's being developed atm
12:05:16 <ais523> as is 6.x, of course, but that's the programming equivalent of duke nukem forever
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12:05:52 <ais523> also, 1.0.16 was released in 2004? why were they continuing to maintain Perl 1, I wonder?
12:05:57 <fizzie> Well, I got my data from the perlhist manpage of this 5.10.0 release packaged in Debian.
12:06:26 <fizzie> My guess was business-critical Perl 1 code from the 1988s.
12:06:53 <fizzie> Oh: "As a birthday present to Perl and Larry, through the work of the perl1-porters, in particular Richard Clamp,
12:06:53 <fizzie> Perl 1.0 has been resurrected with minimal patches for modern machines."
12:07:09 <fizzie> Says http://dev.perl.org/perl1/
12:08:06 <fizzie> The newspost under the "News" heading there is partly amusing.
12:10:44 <ais523> 272 KB tarball for the most recent version of Perl1?
12:13:07 <ais523> wow, Perl1 looks just like modern Perl
12:13:24 <ais523> and I suspect that example program would even run in Perl5, maybe with a few tweaks needed
12:13:30 <ais523> although it would be awful style
12:15:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, idea: plot perl-release vs normalised tarball size (normalised means all converted to bzip2 or gzip or whatever, so you don
12:15:25 <AnMaster> don't* get a difference from that)
12:15:47 <AnMaster> possibly with time on the z axis
12:20:22 <fizzie> I would have to actually fetch all those perls to get that normalized size, though. And I'm not sure where I could get all that stuff. The perlhist.pod page has some size information in it, I could plot that. It seems to be close to a monotonic function, so I'm not sure how interesting it is.
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12:32:27 <fizzie> Heh, I didn't know there was a Parrot-based QuickBASIC 4.5 clone.
12:34:44 <fizzie> https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/browser/trunk/languages/BASIC/compiler?rev=37396
12:34:55 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it has a page, but the BASIC_README suffices.
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14:47:44 <psygnisfive> i might be able to get my hands on at least one NeXT work station :3
15:13:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh hell yes
15:14:15 <ehird> psygnisfive: give it to me :3
15:16:41 <ehird> 09:49 fizzie: AnMaster: Here's the gnuplot view of those Perl releases from my "perldoc perlhist": http://zem.fi/~fis/perlreleases.png (Sorry for the positioning of labels, GNUplot+time-data is not a good combination.)
15:16:48 <ehird> you should put a marker where perl6 dev started :D
15:18:20 <ehird> #!/bin/perl <-- from 198x perl example programs
15:18:29 <ehird> PERL IS A VITAL TOOL TO RUNNING ANY SYSTEM :D
15:18:35 <ais523> where's sed, I wonder?
15:18:40 <ais523> and when was /usr invented?
15:18:44 <ehird> ais523: it's so important it's in /
15:18:58 <ehird> ais523: as for sh,
15:19:06 <ais523> it's on /boot, obviously
15:19:08 <ehird> ais523: well, like MS-DOS... sh is so important, it's in -every directory-
15:19:13 <ehird> so you can just do #!sh
15:19:37 <ehird> also that old perl code is actually readable
15:19:45 <ais523> and very like modern Perl, too
15:19:55 <ais523> just it does some things which would be bad style
15:20:02 <ais523> and doesn't make use of modern features, for obvious reasons
15:20:33 <ehird> "There's a way to make arrays
15:20:33 <ehird> have either origin 0 like C, or origin 1 like awk. Etc.)"
15:20:36 <ehird> bonkers even then.
15:20:59 <ais523> amazing how the features to make it easier to compile things into Perl by text substitution have to be dealt with even to this day...
15:21:53 <ehird> by the way, I need a second opinion: is my switching to Emacs for all my editing purposes, full-time, from an OS X-only editor that's a lot sleeker to use, a sign of the coming apocalypse?
15:22:01 <ehird> I think so, but it could also be a sign I'm going mad
15:22:10 <ais523> what is the other editor?
15:22:20 <ais523> I use a mix of editors, I normally use Emacs but not for everything
15:22:30 <ehird> Previously I only used emacs for haskell and lisp
15:22:31 <ais523> and does TextMate have all the features of Emacs that you want to use?
15:22:49 <ehird> It handles everything exactly how I want except for haskell and lisp :P
15:23:45 <ehird> But, yeah, I (re-)found an emacs distribution for OS X called Aquamacs. If I had to describe it, I'd say it's emacs for people who like the large configurability and the great language modes but don't care for emacs's OS aspirations.
15:24:05 <ais523> does it still run things like dired and gnus?
15:24:14 <ehird> Yes, it's still GNU Emacs
15:24:20 <ehird> Just with addon packages and default configuration and the like
15:24:48 <ehird> I want to know how it sets plaintext documents and the UI in Lucida Grande and code in Monaco
15:24:55 <ehird> I couldn't manage that with Carbon Emacs
15:27:09 <ehird> A few things annoy me though
15:27:34 <ehird> For instance, it's a bit too mac in places -- it suggests you use ~/Library/Preferences/Aquamacs Emacs/Preferences.el instead of ~/.emacs
15:27:38 <ehird> and that kind of sucks for portability.
15:27:46 <ais523> just make the first a symlink to the second
15:27:46 <ehird> but that's fixable
15:27:52 <ehird> ais523: it loads ~/.emacs too
15:28:04 <ehird> although it seems to load Preferences.el sooner
15:28:29 <ehird> anyway, turns out Customize is quite nice if you make it save to something that isn't your main .emacs
15:30:06 <ehird> but, yeah, on the whole it's less irritating than carbon emacs, which is nice, is what I'm trying to say.
15:30:25 <ehird> especially the tabbar. i don't care how efficient buffer switching is, it's irritating.
15:30:37 <ehird> and yes, I tried tabbar.el
15:30:43 <ehird> I couldn't get it working sanel.
15:31:08 <ais523> I get the impression that standard Emacs is designed to have a lot of junk buffers floating around you don't care about
15:31:19 <ais523> I never C-x k, I just start working on something else
15:31:20 <ehird> Yes, which makes it harder to pick out the ones I want and edit them
15:31:28 <ais523> how are you switching buffer?
15:31:36 <ais523> C-x b tab-completes, you know
15:31:43 <ehird> It's still irritating
15:31:50 <ehird> Also that I can't open two frames and have separate sets of buffers
15:32:03 <ehird> That's just how I work; I have one frame per project, and rapidly switch between the files I'm working on in that project
15:32:29 <ais523> just open two instances of Emacs
15:32:42 <ais523> I have them in separate terminal tabs when I do that, too...
15:32:46 <ais523> and often separate desktops
15:32:48 <ehird> ais523: great, now I can't get them to talk to each other
15:32:53 <ais523> why would you want to?
15:32:58 <ais523> if they're different projects?
15:33:16 <ehird> just because they're separate projects doesn't mean they don't have related things; plus, emacs-as-a-whole commands don't rely on what you're editing
15:33:20 <ehird> also, that wouldn't work with OS X
15:33:31 <ehird> you only have one instance of an app at a time, unless you forcibly run another via the terminal
15:33:54 <ehird> and I have tabs of frames, too: selecting the icon in the Dock lists all the windows and the tab they're currently on
15:35:00 <ehird> can someone please prove p=np?
15:35:06 <ehird> programs would get so much better :P
15:35:26 <ais523> ehird: either n = 1 or p = 0
15:35:33 <ais523> sorry, I know it's an old joke...
15:35:53 <ehird> One I happen to have never heard, but amuses me.
15:36:31 <ehird> hmm... where do most people put their non-.emacs emacs stuff? I've been hogging ~/.emacs.d for my own purposes, but I don't think that's right
15:36:36 <ehird> Guess I could ask #emacs
15:36:59 <ais523> ~/esoteric/intercal/latest/etc/intercal.el
15:37:14 <ais523> although admittedly that's for something specific
15:37:17 <ehird> and for things I didn't write?
15:37:30 <ais523> mine would go in ~/research, probably
15:37:35 <ais523> that's my generic "things I didn't write" directory
15:38:15 <ehird> Yeah I tend to organize things :P
15:38:25 <ehird> it irritates me how many dotfiles are in my home directory
15:38:45 <ehird> why can't they go in ~/Config/ or something? oh wait, that exists, it's called ~/Library/Preferencse/.
15:38:48 <ais523> oh, my things are organised too
15:38:50 <ais523> just normally one level down
15:39:03 <ais523> and different parts of my hierarchy are organised different ways
15:39:12 <ais523> my home is basically a linkfarm for things I use a lot, except without links
15:39:24 <ais523> I physically move things to ~, normally, when I use them a lot
15:39:43 <ais523> although sometimes I link, for instance if the thing I'm using is in /var/www, or has to be in a certain location for other reasons (such as my IRC client logs)
15:40:00 <ehird> Your structure sounds more efficient than mine, but less commo
15:40:25 <ais523> well, it would be a real pain for anyone who didn't have it memorised already to work with
15:40:38 <ais523> but then, why should I organise my home dir to be easy for other people to use?
15:40:51 <ais523> I use saner structures for things I'm sharing with other people
15:41:03 <ehird> I just work with what I have until I can throw out my filesystem :-)
15:43:21 <ehird> I wonder if I could get aquamacs to move its configuration and stuff to ~/.elisp or something so it can be portable
15:43:39 <ehird> (And I'd just have .emacs be: add ~/.elisp to load path, load ~/.elisp/init.el or whatever)
15:45:42 * ehird turns off transient mark mode
15:48:04 <ais523> that's one of the first things I did, to
15:48:38 <ehird> Actually, I thought I liked it but then I realised I don't want to see it when I'm saving my position to go back to.
15:49:36 <ehird> Hmm, it doesn't want to turn off.
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15:52:50 <ais523> aargh, connection trouble
15:53:03 <ehird> hay want a bouncer
15:54:36 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/uhzpco/thingy-large.png <- anyone recognize this?
15:55:10 <ehird> Except it's sort of like "turn a bit, and you get this image, but squashed"
15:55:38 <Slereah> I believe it's a large thingy
15:56:17 <ehird> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html#TOC14 <-- emacs used to let you use any language you want
15:58:17 <ehird> Lisp and TECO use a dynamic scope rule, which means that each binding of a variable is visible in all subroutine calls to all levels, unless other bindings override. For example, after
15:58:17 <ehird> (defun foo1 (x) (foo2))
15:58:19 <ehird> (defun foo2 () (+ x 5))
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16:01:49 <ehird> cua-mode is forcing transient-mark-mode
16:02:14 <ehird> it lets you copy/paste/etc with c-[xcv]
16:02:22 <ehird> (yes, it allows C-x commands to still work)
16:02:26 <ehird> except in this case, it's apple-, not c-
16:02:31 <ehird> so it doesn't clash with anything
16:02:40 <ehird> but it ends up turning on transient mark mode
16:02:44 <ais523> well, you don't need a separate mode for that
16:02:52 <ais523> that's three keybinding commands
16:02:52 <ehird> yes, you do, it's not as simple as that
16:03:01 <ais523> what does apple- translate as inside Emacs? super? hyper?
16:03:18 <ais523> S- is shift, s- is super
16:03:22 <ehird> it translates as A-
16:03:35 <ehird> anyway, look up cua-mode; Aquamacs enables it by default
16:03:49 <ehird> There's probably a way to get cua mode not to transient mark
16:10:01 <ais523> hmm... I just found another reference to INTERCAL: http://nicolaas.net/dudley/index.php?f=20080812&email=ais523
16:10:20 <ais523> AnMaster and lament play NetHack, so they'll probably find it funny
16:10:56 <ehird> ***BASIC*** is not nearly slow enough.
16:11:03 <ehird> lament plays nethack?
16:11:13 <ais523> well, he turns up in #nethack every now and then
16:11:44 <ais523> although apparently doesn't have it on autojoin, at least the join- and part-times there seem different from other channels
16:12:13 <ehird> hmm... I wonder who runs nethack in emacs; I wonder so that I may whack them
16:12:38 <AnMaster> from now on "newt" and "two spot" can be used interchangeably. Oh and floor/one spot too
16:12:59 <ais523> AnMaster: Dudley being killed by newts is a running joke in that comic, by the way
16:13:09 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know, I used to read it
16:13:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it went downhill after it changed to all guest comics.
16:13:52 <ehird> zsh: command not found: nethack
16:13:55 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a new version up
16:14:03 <AnMaster> ais523, it says it ended right there
16:14:14 <ais523> people liked the idea so much that they made clones
16:14:15 <AnMaster> ais523, then where is the new one?
16:14:28 <ehird> Variants: autopickup_exceptions, menucolors <-- What on earth is the first one?
16:14:32 <ais523> http://alt.org/nethack/dudley/ is the new one in colour that's pretty popular a the moment
16:14:33 <ehird> ais523: HAHAHAHAHA
16:14:38 <ehird> on that dudley site saying it's dead
16:14:40 <ehird> GreyKnight January 9, 2009 19:48
16:14:44 <ais523> ehird: you can use it to customise autopickup
16:14:49 <ehird> i CANNOT STOP RUNNING INTO THAT GUY
16:14:51 <ais523> so that it picks up some things and not others
16:15:10 <ehird> i wonder if greyknight is my evil alter ego
16:15:57 <AnMaster> ais523, menucolor is the most important patch to use though
16:16:19 <ais523> what makes you think that? I normally play without it
16:16:20 <ehird> why? I didn't use it last time, when I started out (under the guidance ofa is523...)
16:16:22 <ais523> I don't even have it locally
16:16:32 <ais523> ehird: colours in the menus based on regexps
16:16:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I find it a lot easier and a better experience
16:16:39 <ais523> I never really saw the point
16:16:49 <ehird> ais523: well that's silly; it'll make you clicker to type instead of think
16:16:53 <ehird> and thus make rash decisions
16:17:01 <ehird> (if you can semi-get it without reading it)
16:17:06 <ais523> on NAO I just have it on the defaults, which colours in menus based on BCU
16:17:18 <ais523> and that's not particularly useful, I just haven't bothered to turn it off
16:17:31 <ehird> is there a version of NAO that doesn't involve playing over telnet and thus having excruciating lag?
16:18:12 <ais523> you can play locally and termcast your game if you like
16:18:31 <ehird> why doesn't NAO work that way? Because of cheating?
16:18:37 <AnMaster> ais523, my menu colours settings are a bit more complex. Took them from someone else on NAO way back. Don't remember who
16:18:40 <ais523> well, it's designed to be an online server
16:18:46 <ais523> AnMaster: almost certainly Eidolos
16:18:51 <ais523> because everyone copied from him
16:18:57 <ais523> ehird: things like sharing bones files, too
16:19:01 <ais523> and it has a few patches for nasty bugs
16:19:26 <ehird> ais523: it's just horribly, horribly slow...
16:19:37 <ais523> only if you live in Europe
16:19:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it was from one of those open accounts, deathrobin I or whatever the name was
16:19:45 <ehird> ais523: want to know a secret?
16:19:50 <ehird> i live in europe :D
16:20:02 <ais523> the server itself is fast, but typical network latency is problematic if you go across the Atlantic
16:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I heard it was even worse in AU
16:20:09 <ais523> because it happens on every key you send
16:20:12 <ais523> AnMaster: I wouldn't be surprised
16:20:33 <ehird> a better way would be to run vanilla nethack and send it across, and then update the screen
16:20:43 <ehird> so you can play at full speed, but if something differs on NAO, you see it instead
16:20:50 <ais523> well, you'd still have to handle things like bones files
16:20:55 <ehird> just, local play + syncing
16:21:03 <ais523> what about random numbers?
16:21:21 <ehird> ais523: eh, make you use a patched nethack that asks NAO for its numbers
16:21:23 <AnMaster> gcc used 700 MB RAM to compile this file in LLVM. Though it was C++, but even so..
16:21:30 <ehird> the point is that things happen instantaneously if they agree
16:21:50 <ais523> also, it is used for cheatproofing too
16:21:54 <ais523> and things like in-game mail
16:22:42 <AnMaster> ais523, you could make a game that offloads most computation to client yet is cheat proof. I think.
16:22:50 <ehird> can you turn off menucolours even if you have the patch?
16:23:10 <ais523> just blank the menucolors entries in your rc
16:23:31 <AnMaster> maybe you need OPTIONS=!menucolors
16:23:32 <ehird> kay, I'll leave it in then
16:25:33 * ehird tries and sees if he remembers how to start/play nethack
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16:26:07 <ehird> ais523: what size tterminal is best, again? I forgot.
16:26:31 <ais523> 80x24 is the minimum it works with
16:26:39 <ais523> and it doesn't care about the extra space if you give it a bigger terminal
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16:26:46 <ehird> hmm, I thought it used it?
16:26:51 <ehird> I seem to remember maps spanning the whole thing
16:26:53 <ais523> or at least, it uses extra vertical space for longer inventory listings, and extra horizontal space for status messages
16:26:54 <ehird> instead of just in 80x24
16:27:01 <ais523> nope, maps are just 80x24
16:27:04 <AnMaster> ehird, be sure to set numpad mode
16:27:19 <ais523> ehird: there's an option
16:27:24 <AnMaster> ais523, well the vi style keys is horrible IMO
16:27:27 <ais523> numpad:0 is hjkl for west, south, north, east
16:27:39 <ais523> numpad:1 is 2468 for south, west, east, north
16:27:40 <ehird> AnMaster: you're a doody head. :P
16:27:41 <AnMaster> I guess numpad wouldn't work well on a laptop
16:27:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it doesn't
16:27:48 <ehird> the whole point of nethack is the vi keys, sheesh!
16:27:49 <ais523> I know this from experience
16:27:52 <ehird> ais523: you said you used a >80x24 terminal didn't you?
16:28:18 <ehird> hrmph, someone just tell me what size to use :P
16:28:34 <ais523> that way you won't have #nethack shouting at you when they try to watch your recordings
16:28:45 <ais523> even I use it when playing on public servers
16:28:55 <ehird> 80x24 seems cramped :P
16:28:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I usually use my default terminal size which is 193x50 or so. Nethack just uses part of it.
16:29:02 <ais523> ehird: use a bigger font size
16:29:13 <AnMaster> since I use a tabbed terminal emulator I prefer large for all
16:29:14 <ehird> ais523: then I feel senile :-D
16:30:58 <AnMaster> ehird, use a screen with lower DPI.
16:31:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Then I see the pixels.
16:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, select two out of three
16:31:26 <ehird> Oh well, 14pt monaco will work fine.
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16:38:51 * oerjan runs head over heels to iwc
16:40:39 <oerjan> ah so hades is still there
16:41:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wasn't going to comment on it...
16:45:53 <oerjan> <ehird> i wonder if greyknight is my evil alter ego
16:46:04 <oerjan> has anyone ever seen you at the same time?
16:48:13 * oerjan envisions a window manager that detects the user changing personalities, and switches the visible windows
16:49:31 <oerjan> or maybe the ego would just block the windows of the other personalities automatically
16:49:47 <oerjan> someone should ask a psychiatrist
16:52:35 <oerjan> or maybe he is just your evil _twin_. check for someone living under your bed.
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17:35:17 <ehird> yay, my overly-complex nethack archivist script works
18:07:10 <lament> ehird: sure, i play nethack
18:07:51 <ehird> have you stopped beating your wife
18:08:15 <lament> have i stopped fucking your mom
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18:53:57 <ehird> http://paste.lisp.org/display/77285 <- Awful.
18:54:06 <ehird> Also incredibly slow.
18:54:45 <ehird> Hmm, might wanna "$0" instead of $0 for spaces.
18:55:16 <ehird> also it prints to stderr.
18:55:35 <ehird> I'm serious it takes 1.8 seconds to just print 832040
18:56:15 <ehird> oklofok: t is a constant that evaluates to the symbol T, so t = 't
18:56:21 <ehird> and anything non-nil is true
18:56:45 <ehird> it's just standard lisp except it's dynamically scoped because rms is _retarded_ and you have to use the kind of functions you use in the editor ui
18:56:55 <ehird> like (message "foo") displays foo in the command line thingy
18:57:00 <ehird> but it prints to stderr with --batch
18:57:07 <ehird> also it's horribly, horribly slow
18:57:54 <oklofok> how long does scheme usually take for that?
18:58:03 <ehird> oklofok: mere milliseconds
18:59:05 <ehird> Chicken Scheme takes 2 seconds on it
18:59:08 <ehird> (FIB 30) IS NOT HARD PEOPEL
18:59:28 <oerjan> well a dumb recursive _is_ exponential
19:00:01 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-03] % ghc -O2 gawd.hs -o gawd
19:00:01 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-03] % time ./gawd >/dev/null
19:00:02 <ehird> ./gawd > /dev/null 0.09s user 0.00s system 97% cpu 0.093 total
19:00:26 <ehird> This reinforces my decision to only program in haskell and scripting languages
19:01:12 <oklofok> oerjan: i believe ehird said "832040" and not 29 exactly because it was exponential
19:01:37 <oerjan> oklofok: i mean it takes exponential time to compute
19:01:53 <oklofok> oerjan: yes it takes 832040 to compute
19:02:02 <ehird> err i was printing out the result
19:02:26 <ehird> hmm, I just realised that fib(N) is the amount of recursions it takes to compute fib(N) naively
19:02:31 <oklofok> oerjan: "for i in xrange(832040):pass" is exponential too
19:02:33 <ehird> same with factorial
19:02:35 <oerjan> there are better ways of computing fib(n) that are polynomial in n
19:02:40 <ehird> oerjan: yes, I know
19:02:46 <ehird> but computing fib(N) is rare anyway
19:04:23 <ehird> grr, Option as Meta strains my pinky
19:04:32 <ehird> but Command as Meta disables apply shortcuts
19:05:38 <oerjan> well make Option apply then?
19:05:48 <oklofok> ehird: hmm, I just realised that fib(N) is the amount of recursions it takes to compute fib(N) naively <<< okay i guess you did *not* say "832040" because of that if you didn't know it :D
19:06:00 <ehird> oklofok: well I mean a knew it I just didn't knoooow it
19:06:21 <oerjan> or do you mean apply = apple-y?
19:06:36 <ehird> like cmd-n, cmd-s, etc
19:06:54 <ehird> Apple-x would be better, but M-[ns] are used for other things
19:06:58 <oklofok> ehird: you mean like you didn't realize it?
19:07:14 <ehird> oklofok: well, I knew it, but I didn't realise that it was the definition, not a side effect
19:07:42 <oklofok> you... realized functions of that form could be seen as calculating their own behavior?
19:07:51 <ehird> wellllllllllllllll sort of
19:08:19 <oklofok> i had this dream where i went to sydney
19:08:31 <oklofok> and this friend of mine happened to be there
19:08:56 <oklofok> also i almost jumped into the largest waterfall in the world
19:09:08 <oerjan> i don't think that's in sydney
19:09:31 <oklofok> it looked so peaceful 3 meters before the ..cliff
19:09:45 <oklofok> and i was like i is gonna swim darr
19:09:59 <oklofok> then i realized it was a trap set by gods
19:10:05 <ehird> oklofok stop being so AWESOME
19:11:08 <oklofok> i'm being pretty awesome, have about 8 hours of work for today, and 4 hours left
19:11:17 <ehird> wow Frogger is so hard.
19:11:54 <oerjan> just before the waterfall
19:12:24 <oklofok> yes, gotta admit this is not the safest place to be drinking beer
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19:48:20 <ehird> http://www.chromeexperiments.com/hosted/gravity/index.html
19:49:23 <ehird> it even does results
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19:50:19 <Slereah> ehird : what the fuck is that shit made of?
19:50:28 <Slereah> It's not supposed to bounce all around
19:50:35 <ehird> also, it just fell
19:50:38 <ehird> when you load you can see it fall
19:50:41 <ehird> also, presumably it's springy.
19:50:48 <ehird> also you can drag it around
19:50:55 <ehird> Slereah: It's google, man.
19:51:13 <ehird> Fun game: Throw the search button up, hit it before it falls.
19:56:28 <ehird> Slereah: Can you mang to build a tower to hold the search box and the logo?
20:00:58 <AnMaster> http://www.chromeexperiments.com/hosted/gravity/index.html <-- google uk?
20:01:21 <AnMaster> and the search button does nothing
20:01:35 <ehird> you need a recent browser with JS.
20:01:39 <Slereah> How do I drag them around,
20:01:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I used Konqueror with js enabled
20:01:47 <ehird> Slereah: Click and drag.
20:01:49 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, no.
20:02:03 <ehird> It works in Chrome, Safari and maybe Firefox.
20:02:11 <ehird> Slereah: aren't they slightly tilted?
20:02:14 <AnMaster> ehird, compiling C++ stuff atm so don't want to run firefox, (it swap trashed when I tried)
20:02:15 <ehird> maybe yer browser is too oldy
20:02:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Firefox 2 wouldn't work
20:02:23 <ehird> and you refuse to use 3.
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20:02:30 <ehird> Slereah: yeah, get firefox 3 or safari or chrome or something
20:02:32 <ehird> AnMaster: wait wut
20:02:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I switched to 3 when the official support for 2 ended
20:02:57 <AnMaster> I'm quite sure I must have mentioned it
20:02:57 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, the google home page sits there for a second, then everything collapse to the ground and wobbles. You can throw around the elements, and they still function
20:03:06 <ehird> If you click search, big blocks of results come down and hit everything
20:03:14 <ehird> You can try and build towers with them and stuff.
20:03:23 <ehird> They bend to fit the gravity but you can still type in the input fields and stuff
20:03:42 <ehird> It's using that CSS transform thing to rotate them and JS to simulate the gravity and stuff
20:03:45 <AnMaster> I wonder who thought "lets do a google proxy affected by gravity"
20:03:57 <ehird> http://www.chromeexperiments.com/
20:04:04 <ehird> which is a Google site that lets people submit JS hack things
20:04:08 <ehird> to demonstrate chrome's awesomeity
20:04:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so some of them only works in chrome?
20:04:40 <ehird> They've all worked in Safari for me; but, uh, same rendering engine.
20:04:46 <ehird> The gravity one probably works in FF23.
20:05:33 <AnMaster> konq has the same rendering engine too. Though this is a rather old konq
20:07:26 <ehird> Yeah, um, KHTML/KJS are nothing compared to modern WebKit/Squirrelfish Extreme
20:08:49 <ehird> Anyway, I might as well give away a relevant Evil Idea I had:
20:10:53 <ehird> There's a 64 bit Java browser plugin for Linux now, and if you take a look at http://www.pulpgames.net/milpa/ it's unlike any other applet I've seen: loads fast, no lag, and is as smooth as a flash game as far as usability goes. And, also, there's a Haskell->JVM compiler (that needs updating, but still.)
20:11:15 <ehird> So... use Haskell->JVM compiler to make an Applet. Watch the hilarious slowity at running Haskell on something totally not designed for it.
20:11:26 <ehird> I think profit is meant to come in somewhere, but all my predictions just end in the user hanging themselves.
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20:12:55 <AnMaster> ehird, err how is that http://www.pulpgames.net/milpa/ related to Haskell->JVM?
20:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a java applet
20:13:21 <AnMaster> yes but not one made with the haskell->jvm one?
20:13:32 <ehird> i think we'd better stop here.
20:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, or was it made with that?
20:14:01 <AnMaster> after that I will go doing other things anyway
20:14:15 <ehird> I don't think there's ever been a time where you haven't understood something immediately but later understood it after it being explained; so I'm not sure I should bother.
20:14:40 <ehird> Slereah: http://www.screencast.com/users/ehird/folders/Jing/media/66b8b3e4-62e5-4c03-9b43-9d6305c34e85 video of the dragging
20:15:14 <AnMaster> ehird, tried that chromeexperiemnt thingy, falling works in firefox, you mentioned dragging things around. Can't get that to work
20:15:28 <ehird> Then I guess that doesn't work in FF
20:15:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Install a webkit browser? Like arora
20:20:02 <ehird> http://balldroppings.com/js/
20:30:33 <oklofok> what determines the pitch?
20:30:52 <ehird> oklofok: I think how much they bounce or something
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20:41:28 <ehird> cool, you can download it
20:41:30 <ehird> http://balldroppings.com/
20:44:04 <oklofok> hmm, actually i guess i'm doing the classic error of mistaking challenge for hinderingmentness.
20:44:57 <oklofok> well actually trivially impossible to escape the canon
20:45:03 <oklofok> so you can only compose snippets
20:46:53 <ehird> try the download version
20:46:57 <ehird> it's faster and more configgy
20:50:16 <oklofok> actually i've been thinking about making something like that, except just one ball, and gadgets for multiplying balls
20:50:23 <ehird> that would be nice
20:51:00 <oklofok> also probably infinite universe, since it's not a game, constraints are useless
20:51:23 <oklofok> i actually have part of it working, and i do a bit more every day
20:51:32 <oklofok> (except today, but just because i slept all day)
20:53:14 <oklofok> it's this graph fractal replication game
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21:00:34 <ehird> oklofok you should make a physics thing that has notes instead of particles or something
21:01:31 <oklofok> i'm not sure how that would go
21:01:44 <ehird> well, basically it's the LHC for music.
21:01:54 <ehird> and you control all the operating parameters and the particles and shit. and the particles are music.
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21:13:58 <fizzie> And the matter-eating strangelets, what are those?
21:14:48 <ehird> fizzie: they reverse time
21:16:26 <ehird> oklofok: i mean basically
21:16:33 <ehird> you'd have a particle go around observing them all
21:16:37 <ehird> and observing them makes them play
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22:27:52 <Asztal_> every time I lose the game, I win the *other* game
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23:17:02 <ehird> oklofok: what's sort in apl? the verbs marked sort don't seem to be.
23:20:28 <oklofok> take that thingie which gives you the order of elems
23:20:34 <oklofok> and then you use it as a permutation
23:20:42 <ehird> which thingy would this be :|||||||||||||||||
23:20:56 <oklofok> it's something like /. or /:
23:21:28 <ehird> right those are called sort
23:21:52 <oklofok> yes i prefer to call them thingies.
23:22:52 <ehird> ewww, it's so ugly
23:23:10 <ehird> here's how you sort a list
23:23:22 <ehird> two fucking variables
23:23:27 <ehird> with some wacko ]foo =: bar assignment thin
23:23:34 <ehird> I guess you could do a fork :P
23:23:46 <oklofok> err isn't it like ({/:)~ or something
23:23:58 <ehird> FireFly: oklofok does that to you :)
23:24:34 <fizzie> Doesn't even the ference say: (/:y){y sorts y in ascending order. (Disclaimer: I know nothing about J.)
23:24:42 <ehird> fizzie: yes, but it's not that simple
23:24:50 <ehird> because then you have to specify the list twice
23:24:56 <ehird> so you need to composerer them
23:25:29 <ehird> oklofok: {/: is wrong because it's just two ops
23:25:56 <oklofok> sorry i thought { took params in different order
23:26:51 <oklofok> i kinda have a fever atm, so i'm not sure i can conjure up the few characters to make it short
23:27:29 <ehird> I need an op such that (x op y) z is z x (y z)
23:27:40 <ehird> Ima ask #jsoftware
23:28:57 <oklofok> sorry about the delay, took me about 30 seconds to see how ~ permutes it
23:29:04 <ehird> hmm, you need the parens
23:29:08 <oklofok> things keep popping to head
23:29:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: yep
23:29:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that would be difficult
23:29:51 <ehird> anyway I conclude that J is on average more verbose than apl
23:32:52 <ehird> oklofok: well sure
23:35:23 <ehird> also you can't assign to ↑ because j has uniphobia
23:44:23 <ehird> oklofok: will oklotalk have jew code characters
23:46:01 <ehird> FireFly: how did you discover j
23:46:48 <oklofok> (sorry for being dumb atm)
23:47:30 <oklofok> ehird: FireFly: how did you discover j <<< missed this
23:47:38 <oklofok> okay this isn't really working.
23:47:50 <ehird> FireFly: written any substantial programs? I haven't :D
23:48:06 <ehird> oklofok: uniode yeah.
23:48:47 <oklofok> i have a great feeling about these computational class problems i need to do now, first exercise was basically adding binary numbers together, took me about 5 attempts to get it right
23:49:00 <FireFly> Not really, played around with it, thinking how one would create a WireWorld prog in it
23:49:26 <oklofok> heh, my first instinct was "what's a wireblog?"
23:49:32 <FireFly> From what I've noticed, it seems to be really fast
23:49:38 <oklofok> see you when i'm well again :D
23:49:50 <ehird> FireFly: it's fast because all the vector primitives are tight loops in C code
23:49:57 <ehird> if you tried to do something less vectory it'd probably be slower
23:51:04 <FireFly> I've ever tried any similar langs (like APL and stuff), so to me everything looks really short
23:51:18 <ehird> It is very concise
23:51:29 <FireFly> And folding is a clever idea
23:51:36 <ehird> Yeah, the adverbs are great
23:52:10 <FireFly> I should be reading my history :\
23:52:28 <ehird> sleeping is worthiless!
23:52:35 <FireFly> I guess it's time to leave for me too
23:53:23 <FireFly> It's good for my grades, though
23:53:40 <FireFly> Bah, I need to train more with Dvorak :\
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23:56:13 <ehird> wowzers, writing a script with j is ugly
23:56:14 <ehird> #!/usr/bin/env jconsole
23:56:15 <ehird> 'Hello, world!'(1!:2)2
23:56:19 <ehird> yeah i just love meaningless Foreigns
23:56:38 <ehird> they are so nice that I want to kill them
23:57:31 <ehird> why can't they at least be strings
23:57:35 <ehird> i could handle that
23:57:40 <ehird> but 1!:2? comeonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
23:59:06 <ehird> that's more bearable
23:59:50 <oklofok> there are names for many i think
23:59:59 <oklofok> it's just not very hardcore to use them