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00:01:48 <zzo38> I found Shor's algorithm implemented in C even!
00:02:30 <zzo38> If you mean the algorithm in C, it is: http://alumni.imsa.edu/~matth/quant/299/paper/node42.html
00:04:54 <AnMaster> zzo38, that isn't C... that is C++
00:05:21 <ehird> what matters is the algorithm
00:05:43 <zzo38> But how would the INTERCAL commands be effectively used for that? CLCLC-INTERCAL defines the following for quantum computing: The QUANTUM keyword which is used like % but for quantum probabilities, qubit registers, the controlled-V operator, and the TRANSFORM command.
00:06:01 <AnMaster> ehird, it has a qubit class though... And a qubit register class as well..
00:06:12 <AnMaster> I'm happy it isn't a template at least
00:06:21 <oklofok> if you're seriously saying the class *usage* part of c++ is worse than pure c, i'd love to hear you're arguments
00:07:21 <AnMaster> oklofok, I just find C++ a horrible implementation of object orientation. There are much better object oriented languages, such as Objc and Smalltalk
00:07:42 <AnMaster> oklofok, I suggest you read the C++ FQA
00:07:51 <AnMaster> in case you have further questions
00:07:54 <oklofok> but basically the only difference between procedural c and c++ is types like complex use a sensible syntax
00:07:57 <ehird> AnMaster you're so good at parroting stuff about languages I know you've never used.
00:08:28 <oklofok> AnMaster: i've read some of that, seemed a bit void of content
00:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I have used objc a bit, not much, and I heard it is similiar to smalltalk in the OO bits (you told me so). So I do indeed extrapolate from it.
00:09:05 <zzo38> I also find C++ bad object orientation (and even worse when compiling for the Nintendo DS, because apparently C++ makes bloated executables that will not fit on the Nintendo DS)
00:10:19 <zzo38> Does anyone who understands quantum computing better would know what this program does: DO |1 <- #50$#50 DO QUANTUM |1 IGNORE |1 DO TRANSFORM |1
00:10:35 <zzo38> And would it make a difference if the TRANSFORM comes before the IGNORE
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00:11:45 <oklofok> i'm just saying procedural c++ is just c enhanced with a nicer syntax for making your structs
00:13:34 <pikhq> With function overloading and default arguments.
00:13:46 <oklofok> yes, but there weren't even functions there
00:14:03 <oklofok> and it was in pseudo-code fashion anyway
00:14:27 <oklofok> so why would you use a language where things like operations on complexes look like milking a male horse
00:14:29 <pikhq> Well, there's a nicer syntax for structs and some fiddly details with how pointers work.
00:14:56 <zzo38> O, and please remember that ignoring a quantum register does not prevent the qubit value from being changed, only which qubit the register refers to is becoming unchanged.
00:15:05 <oklofok> could you elaborate on "fiddly details with how pointers work"
00:15:26 <oklofok> zzo38: i can't say i understand that.
00:15:27 <pikhq> int *foo = malloc(sizeof(int)*5); is not valid C++.
00:15:55 <pikhq> A void pointer isn't implicitly cast in C++...
00:16:24 <pikhq> Yeah, little stuff like that.
00:17:07 <oklofok> should probably take that course on quantum computing next year
00:17:15 <oklofok> i'm sure i don't need to know any physics for it
00:17:32 <Slereah> But I could teach you so much!
00:17:49 <ehird> hmm, non-abstract game objects suck
00:17:53 <ehird> because you have to draw them :D
00:18:04 <ehird> who doesn't want to control a square?
00:18:05 <zzo38> But probably knowledge of mathematics (including complex numbers and matrices) would help, whether or not you need to know any physics for it
00:18:17 <ehird> I think oklofok is quite well math-versed...
00:18:26 * Sgeo hasn't taken a math course in a while
00:18:41 <oklofok> i'm a noob in math, just gifted
00:18:51 <zzo38> Why draw the object? If everything is on the grid then just use ASCII. If it is not a grid then you do need to draw it, at least the circle or sqwuare plus a few other featuers
00:18:59 <oklofok> (i do know complex numbers and matrices tho)
00:19:02 <Sgeo> I'm scared I might forget everything I didn't know in 6th grade. Mind you, I understood calculus in 6th grade (not enough to apply it), but still
00:19:18 <oklofok> Sgeo: what did you understand about it?
00:20:08 <Sgeo> I understood the basics of differentiation(sp?) and integration, but didn't understand how to differntiate, say, 1/x (didn't realize that that's just x^-1)
00:20:11 <oklofok> i "understood" that integrals are a kind of infinite sum
00:20:19 <zzo38> I also know complex numbers and matrices, but it confuses me a bit when dealing with quantum computing, mostly because I don't understand quantum computing perfectly. I do understand math, and with any proper equations using only complex numbers and matrices I might understand it
00:20:26 <oklofok> but it's not that much to understand
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00:21:25 <oklofok> Sgeo: those are just rules you memorize. deriving them is what not all 6th graders can do.
00:21:33 * Sgeo <3ed Calculus the Easy Way
00:22:06 <zzo38> O, I learned differentiation calculus in school too, when the teacher teached a few things, then I found the infinite series for sin(x), cos(x), e^x, in another math book and I thought, O, I can figure out the derivative of this! So I did, and I told the calculus teacher. He ask me to figure out derivative tan(x), I knew it was sin(x)/cos(x) and they teached division differentiation so I was easily able to figure it out
00:23:32 <zzo38> The teacher even showed how to figure out how some of the rules work, which is good. I realized some of the rules could be figured out in alternate ways having to do with the other rules
00:24:19 <oklofok> the only way to learn calculus is via rigorous proofs
00:24:46 <oklofok> everything else should be made illegal
00:24:53 <zzo38> Once a guest teacher came into our calculus class and he was impressed with how good I was at the mathematics things (including things that was not taught and just figure it out by myself) so he asked me to solve the twin prime conjecture for the rest of my life.
00:25:00 <oklofok> WHY WON'T THE MATERIAL LOAD I WANT TO READ :<
00:25:03 <ehird> 23:18 zzo38: Why draw the object? If everything is on the grid then just use ASCII. If it is not a grid then you do need to draw it, at least the circle or sqwuare plus a few other featuers
00:25:09 <ehird> the screen is too big for an ascii thang to work nicely
00:26:47 <zzo38> I'm not sure completely how to start solving the twin prime conjecture but one day I will figure it out. I have independently proven many other things before in mathematics, so eventually I should figure out this one as well, maybe?
00:27:05 <oklofok> what kind of things have you figured out?
00:27:35 <Sgeo> zzo38, I once thought I'd toy with that
00:27:42 <Sgeo> Not that I remember much now
00:28:21 <Sgeo> Hm, all but one prime pairs are centered around a multiple of 6 (that sounds trivial, I guess I only found trivial stuff)
00:28:33 <zzo38> One day I independently figured out a proof for the pythagorean theorem while resting on a couch. I showed it to some people and they sent a message to a university where nobody else knew that proof and thought the sender was a doctor. He isn't, neither am I. I thought someone else must have used this proof before, and later I learned I was correct.
00:29:20 <Sgeo> zzo38, AWESOME
00:29:39 <zzo38> I also proved that the audioactive decay sequence (start at 1 and continuously run-length encode it) has no numbers higher than 3 and you won't get 333
00:29:55 <ehird> audioactive decay = look and say sequence
00:30:21 <oklofok> isn't that a simple inductive proof?
00:30:42 <zzo38> Yes it is a simple inductive proof.
00:30:59 <oklofok> i'd probably need paper and an hour
00:31:25 <zzo38> And I have seen the audioactive decay sequence refered to as many different things before, although I have never seen it refered to as run-length encoding, although someone has probably done so and I just don't know about it
00:31:44 <zzo38> I don't see why it would take that long
00:32:05 <oklofok> i'd probably need an hour just to get myself to find a paper
00:34:25 <zzo38> A paper? I did all three of these proofs without a paper. Although a paper would certainly help in understanding it. The problem with most people is thinking using some kind of language (such as English). You need to learn to think abstractly without languages and then you will understand.
00:35:19 <zzo38> And the pythag proof I made up while resting on the couch (although I'm sure many other people have done the same, completely independently of me) I now put it on the computer and can be found at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img7/pythagorean.png
00:35:20 <oklofok> you talk like you're a greater mind than me
00:35:26 <oklofok> i don't take kindly to that
00:35:57 <zzo38> Well, you are better at some things and I am better at some things, but we can both learn.
00:36:30 <oklofok> i saw that proof much too early to have come up with it
00:37:09 * Sgeo feels like the lowest mind here :(. Well, I'm still better than most people I meet IRL
00:37:40 <zzo38> I have never even seen any proof of pythagorean theorem that I understood before coming up with this proof. Although probably other people who proved it independently might certainly have done the same, which I think is probably true.
00:37:50 <oklofok> Sgeo: neither of these proofs is actually very complicated
00:38:23 <oklofok> zzo38: well that's the canonical visual proof
00:38:28 <Sgeo> I'm talking in general, not these proofs in specific.. although I'd never come up with a Pythagorian theorem proof independently
00:38:28 <ehird> i'm the lowest mind here, probably.
00:39:20 <oklofok> well geometrical proofs don't count, so you still have time.
00:39:48 <Sgeo> oklofok, are you talking to me?
00:40:20 <Sgeo> "you still have time" Time until what? I'm 19, if you mean something
00:40:24 <zzo38> Why do geometrical proofs not count? This proof is a simple proof having to do with areas of triangles and squares, with a bit of algebra involved also.
00:40:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: Time until you are dead, of course.
00:41:15 <oklofok> Sgeo: i meant you can still be the first one of us three
00:41:27 <oklofok> but it was somewhat of a joke, i just don't like visual proofs.
00:42:11 <zzo38> I don't generally prefer visual proofs either, but for things like sides of triangles, visual proof seems the best way.
00:42:48 <zzo38> That is, as long as other mathematics is also involved (such as algebra), otherwise the visual proofs mean comparitively nothing
00:43:09 <Sgeo> Incredibly stupid question time that's bugged me for a while? Is there a non-visual proof that a*b == b*a?
00:43:37 <oklofok> the problem is you're stepping into the area of definitions
00:44:02 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I'm sure there is but I can't think of it right now. (Anyways it applies if a and b are real or complex numbers but not if they are hypercomplex or matrices)
00:44:17 <oklofok> Sgeo: in non-abelian groups ab isn't necessarily the same as ba
00:44:34 <ehird> AnMaster: my mario physics are functioning
00:44:39 <Sgeo> Real numbers, I guess. Even just a proof for integers, or even just naturals
00:45:11 <ehird> Completely unrestricted air movement because why the hell not.
00:45:14 <oklofok> Sgeo: well for integers you can define addition constructively using a simple recursive definition
00:45:19 <oklofok> after which you can just use induction
00:45:58 <oklofok> Sgeo: you don't want to know the details of real numbers
00:46:17 <Sgeo> Where can I find those details?
00:46:33 <Sgeo> And are rationals simpler?
00:46:36 <oklofok> safest way would probably be some kinda math institution
00:46:51 <oklofok> reals step over the line of intuition, at least for most ppl
00:48:04 <zzo38> If p/q is a fraction and r/s is another one then the result (pr)/(qs) and (rp)/(sq) is same
00:48:48 <pikhq> Yeah, the reals are rather... Ugly.
00:49:15 <pikhq> The rationals follow rather easily from the integers, though.
00:49:19 <oklofok> ugly or beautiful, point is they contain a dash of math
00:49:31 <oklofok> and math requires insanity
00:49:57 <pikhq> As proven by oerjan's mad scientist-style lair.
00:50:03 <pikhq> (I assume oerjan has one)
00:50:20 <zzo38> There is no great genius without a touch of madness.
00:51:38 <oklofok> i'll probably start doing some math next year, currently i've just done the algebra and analysis basics
00:52:23 <oklofok> so many nice cs courses i just didn't have the time
00:54:12 <ehird> the adventures of the red square in falling blue oblongs land
00:55:50 <zzo38> Or you represent the player's object by a circle and the other objects by squares/rectangles, I just think this way is better. And color-code the objects (unless you are using a monochrome display) according to which type, such as moving, earn points, dangerous, pushable, etc.
00:56:28 <zzo38> And I found a article on wikipedia about quantum turing but it is stub and doesn't explain it much (mostly because is stub)
01:03:58 <ehird> hmm, coming up with good placing for the floors is hard
01:04:16 <zzo38> Do you have screen-shot?
01:04:34 <ehird> Cant' screenshot SDL stuff, it comes out blank :(
01:05:07 <ehird> zzo38: just imagine a 500x500 black image with a 30x30 red pixel on it and 7 randomly placed blocks of 45-75 pixel width that are 5 pixels tall and all blue
01:05:24 <zzo38> Then use the screen-shot function of SDL (if SDL has a function for doing screen-shots)
01:05:41 <zzo38> And explain what the colors mean
01:05:45 <ehird> don't know if it does
01:05:49 <ehird> zzo38: (255,0,0) is red
01:05:58 <ehird> red means 'you', blue means 'floor'
01:06:01 <zzo38> The colors must represent different kind of objects, but what does each kind represent
01:06:03 <ehird> and those are the only objects
01:06:10 <ehird> basically, you're on a floor
01:06:14 <ehird> and you can move left, right, and jump
01:06:17 <ehird> now, the floors continually move down
01:06:21 <ehird> and new floors appear above
01:06:25 <ehird> if you fall to the bottom, you lose
01:06:33 <ehird> so you have to jump up on to the new floors for as long as possible
01:06:47 <zzo38> OK. Maybe you should add some more kind of objects later on, such as goal object (maybe green?) and add a timer maybe
01:07:02 <ehird> This is sort of a prototype for a full game with the same ide
01:07:18 <zzo38> Adding things like moving horizontally objects, object to collect bonus points etc
01:07:33 <ehird> I was also planning to have tunnels you go in to, but with the exit at the bottom
01:07:39 <ehird> So you have to collect the item in them before the exit disappears
01:08:35 <ehird> Hmm, maybe I should enforce some distance between floors
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01:10:35 <oklofok> zzo38: after a moment of thought, i'm not even sure what it'd even mean to have a non-geometric proof of pythagoras', since that's just how euclidean distance is defined
01:11:01 <oklofok> so i guess that proof is okay.
01:11:42 <oklofok> he wasn't when i started writing, so i completed the sentencer
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01:12:21 <oklofok> i know he doesn't read logs, but i like correcting myself anyway
01:15:30 * ehird adds COLLISON DETRECTION
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01:39:50 <ehird> yay, it's almost done
01:39:58 <ehird> 2) new floor creation
01:40:01 <ehird> 3) fix floor placement
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01:42:44 <ehird> sweet, my physics are such that if you go fast enough, you can pass through walls
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01:53:41 <Sgeo> Just like in SL!
01:54:51 <Sgeo> If you go fast enough through a thin enough wall in SL, you end up going through it
01:55:34 <ehird> self.rect.move_ip(0, self.velocity)
01:55:34 <ehird> i = self.colliding()
01:55:38 <ehird> self.velocity += 1
01:55:40 <ehird> elif self.velocity >= 0:
01:55:42 <ehird> self.rect.y = self.game.floors[i].rect.y - 30
01:55:48 <ehird> def colliding(self):
01:55:50 <ehird> return self.rect.move(0, 1).collidelist(self.game.floors)
01:55:57 <ehird> so if you go fast enough, you never get to that point because you teleport right through it
01:56:05 <ehird> at that point there's no way to stop dropping
02:08:41 <oklofok> ehird: sweet, my physics are such that if you go fast enough, you can pass through walls <<< tbh i'd be more impressed with the other option
02:12:03 <oklofok> Sgeo: Just like in SL! <<< second life? if so, that's kinda unbelievable
02:12:57 <Sgeo> What's unbelievable about SL physics not being perfect?
02:13:06 <Sgeo> And yes, SL == Second Life
02:13:19 <oklofok> i'm assuming it's developed by professionals
02:13:45 <AnMaster> Sgeo, http://www.getafirstlife.com/
02:14:15 <Sgeo> oklofok, do you want an inworld demonstration?
02:14:29 <oklofok> "fornicate using your actual genitals" :D
02:15:31 <Sgeo> Also, thick enough walls prevent fast objects from entering
02:15:42 <Sgeo> Not sure how thick they need to be
02:15:48 <Sgeo> Can't go wrong with 10m walls
02:17:26 <oklofok> Sgeo: oklofok, do you want an inworld demonstration? <<< i don't have an account
02:18:12 <AnMaster> Sgeo, did you look at that link?
02:18:24 <oklofok> yeah Sgeo did you change your life already
02:18:36 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I've seen it before
02:19:00 <Sgeo> Sadly, the secondlife.com page has since been changed so that GetAFirstLife.com no longer looks like SecondLife.com
02:20:07 <AnMaster> Sgeo, also I would like an in-world demo, but I don't have any account either, and it need to work on 64-bit Linux.
02:20:10 <Sgeo> http://www.darrenbarefoot.com/archives/2007/01/my-project-du-jour-getafirstlifecom.html#comment-75509
02:20:36 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I know there's a Linux client (I've used it for most of my time in SL), but not sure about 64-bit
02:20:56 <AnMaster> if I need to pay anything forget it
02:21:07 <AnMaster> also it is getting late, will have to wait until tomorrow
02:21:11 <Sgeo> AnMaster, accounts are feee
02:21:21 <Sgeo> If they weren't, I wouldn't be in SL
02:21:25 <AnMaster> Sgeo, how do they make money then...
02:21:36 <Sgeo> AnMaster, there is an optional premium option
02:21:46 <Sgeo> As well as when people buy L$ directly from LL
02:21:48 <AnMaster> http://www.darrenbarefoot.com/archives/2007/01/my-project-du-jour-getafirstlifecom.html#comment-75509 <-- doesn't work, doesn't jump to comment, stays at top
02:22:04 <Sgeo> AnMaster, noticed, and I have no clue why that is
02:22:19 <AnMaster> Sgeo, so what comment did you want to link?
02:22:31 <Sgeo> The "Proceed and Permitted" letter
02:30:02 <oklofok> like throw them into walls and catch them
02:30:13 <Sgeo> Hm, not sure how catching would work
02:30:23 <Sgeo> Maybe if the ball gets close enough, it could be caught
02:30:31 <Sgeo> That would definately need to be scripted
02:31:08 <Sgeo> Someone else might actually sell something like that, what's the name of that game?
02:31:42 <Sgeo> That you're trying to describe? Handball, Suicide, something like that?
02:32:17 <oklofok> not a game, just throwing it around.
02:32:18 <Sgeo> Doubt that such a thing is being sold on the market, but it could be scripted
02:32:56 <Sgeo> Although you couldn't catch other people's balls.. well, you could, sort of, but the scripting would be a bit more difficult
02:33:30 <Sgeo> And every participant would need their own "ball-catching" attachment, I think
02:33:39 <Sgeo> Otherwise, there's no way to detect anyone trying to throw the ball
02:33:49 <oklofok> sounds like the physics are kinda crappy
02:34:00 <Sgeo> The physics themselves are not the issue
02:34:08 <Sgeo> The issue is being able to throw, and being able to catch
02:34:18 <Sgeo> The interaction of ball and wall would not need to be scripted
02:35:30 <oklofok> physics are an issue if you cannot grab things
02:38:02 <Sgeo> Well, actually, it sort of is possible to grab things, I think we're imagining things differently
02:38:28 <Sgeo> You mean "grab with the mouse cursor and use that to throw it", or "grab with the avatar, and from a first-person view, click and hold to throw"
02:38:35 <Sgeo> The latter needs scripting, the former doesn't
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02:39:20 <oklofok> i don't care how it's done
02:39:30 <Sgeo> Hi zzo38. Someone responded to something you said. It's in the logs. Don't remember details.
02:39:32 <oklofok> zzo38: did you catch my realizing my error?
02:40:04 <zzo38> oklofok: I did read your message about "i'm not even sure what it'd even mean to have a non-geometric proof of....". Just so you know I did read the log
02:40:28 <oklofok> why is amazon tempting me with all these pretty books
02:40:29 <zzo38> I often read the log.
02:41:04 <zzo38> Clear the cookies on amazon first. After checking what you want to purchase then you can login again.
02:42:21 <oklofok> well i don't actually mind them tempting me. i'm just saying these books are nice
02:44:25 <zzo38> And I added a example for quantum CLCLC-INTERCAL now, although it isn't the best example, so if someone can make a better one using controlled-V and TRANSFORM then that would be better
02:44:33 <oklofok> mainly programming languages, mathematics, robotics and random weird stuff
02:45:07 <oklofok> i'm not actually that interested in robotics, but i bought a book related to it, and amazon can't know better ofc
02:45:22 <Sgeo> Good night oklofok
02:48:09 <zzo38> I also improved the specification for quantum computing in CLCLC-INTERCAL. Now it says which commands are allowed to be quantum (which is not all of them)
02:48:34 <zzo38> And you can have threading, backtracking, and quantuming, all in the same program!
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06:21:43 <Sgeo> Hm, I just mentioned this place in a channel of 300 people..
06:21:51 <Sgeo> Make that 381 people
06:21:56 <Sgeo> Was that perhaps a bad idea?
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06:22:25 <Sgeo> cthuljew, this channel is not particularly active right now
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06:22:37 <cthuljew> Well, that's why I'm gonna idle.
06:23:05 <cthuljew> I'm full of deep-fried shrimp and in no hurry.
06:24:10 <Sgeo> Also, while no one is chatting, check out http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
06:29:21 <Sgeo> Good night all
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10:03:13 <oerjan> 17:15:30 * ehird adds COLLISON DETRECTION
10:03:22 <oerjan> i assume this is for colliding detritus
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17:31:44 <ehird> 01:32 Sgeo: Although you couldn't catch other people's balls
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17:41:59 <ehird> ais523: he's asiekierka
17:42:01 <ehird> grr, amazon review comments are more irritating than youtube ones
17:42:26 <ehird> because although everyone has correct grammar, they respond to extremely blatant joke reviews by insulting the author and acting in disbelief that they could be so dumb
17:42:56 <ehird> because although everyone has correct grammar, they respond to extremely blatant joke reviews by insulting the author and acting in disbelief that they could be so dumb
17:43:01 <ehird> pressed up/enter by mistake
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17:43:51 <ehird> my physics are a bit funny
17:44:04 <ehird> if you're falling, but to the right of you is a platform
17:44:12 <ehird> if you go up to it, even if you only touch it by a tip
17:44:14 <ehird> you end up on top of it
17:45:29 <ais523_> wow, ais523 without the underscore is laggy atm
17:45:41 <ehird> ais523: just in the context of the xjump clone I'm making; you may have played it
17:46:04 <ehird> ais523: you're a little guy, and there are platforms
17:46:07 <ehird> and they keep falling down
17:46:10 <ehird> and new ones come from the top
17:46:14 <ehird> you have to not fall down to the bottom
17:46:23 <ehird> they fall faster the further you go up
17:46:34 <ais523> ah, and you have to get to the top?
17:46:49 <ais523> as high as you can, then
17:51:06 <ehird> "In my view a startup time of around 1 sec isn't too bad for a script." <-- O_O
17:52:07 <Deewiant> Yeah, I was a bit surprised at that view as well
17:52:24 <ais523> it depends on what the script does
17:52:33 <ais523> TAEB takes a lot longer than 1 second to start up, and is technically a script I suppose
17:52:45 <ehird> I need to figure out a way to have characters like ← easily typable.
17:52:50 <ehird> I don't like using ASCII.
17:53:50 <ehird> Yeah that's real helpful
17:54:03 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if C-x 8 < - works in Emacs? I've never tried
17:54:06 <ais523> if it doesn't, it ought to
17:54:23 <ais523> used to type characters not on the keyboard
17:54:29 <ais523> it's basically a compose key
17:54:31 <ehird> it gives a << char
17:54:47 <ais523> C-x 8 e ' gives you é, for instance
17:55:09 <ehird> wow, :set digraph overloads backspace
17:55:21 <ehird> '<' backspace '-' produces an arrow
17:55:27 <ehird> and yet the < is erased after the backspace
17:55:35 <Deewiant> I can't figure out how to remove preset digraphs, though
17:55:45 <Deewiant> I might have to compile my own Vim to remove the space-space one
17:56:09 <ehird> '-' backspace '-' doesn't produce –
17:57:08 <ehird> So, I had an idea for a precisely specified type system thingy.
17:57:12 <ehird> That is, 3 is of type 3.
17:57:14 <Deewiant> ehird: So do :dig - - — and it will.
17:57:18 <ehird> [3,4] is of type [3|4]
17:57:21 <Deewiant> (Or whatever the syntax was, I forget.)
17:57:41 <ehird> type Int = -infinity | ... | 0 | 1 | 2 | ... | infinity
17:57:56 <ehird> [3,"hello"] is valid too, I think; as type [3|"hello"]
17:58:25 <ehird> [3,"hello"] ++ [4,()] is-a [3|"hello"|4|()]
17:58:44 <ais523> ehird: with a type system like that, who needs values?
17:58:48 <logicgap> Deewiant: How's DOBELAinterpreter going on?
17:58:50 <ehird> fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1)
17:59:01 <ais523> also, will anything at all happen at runtime, or will it all be done during compilation and type inference?
17:59:04 <ehird> fact :: 0|Int -> Int
17:59:08 <Deewiant> logicgap: I have a crapload of homework, it probably won't go anywhere for a few weeks
17:59:09 <ehird> fact :: 0|Int -> 1|Int
17:59:17 <ehird> (*) :: Int -> Int -> Int
17:59:19 <ehird> (Yes, it's generic)
17:59:23 <ehird> (I'm simplifying for example)
17:59:29 <ehird> ais523: it's just a type system for a regular language
17:59:38 <ehird> possibly dependently typed
17:59:48 <ais523> it should so be fact :: Int -> 1 | 2 | 6 | 24 | 120 | ...
17:59:52 <Deewiant> logicgap: One new question though: when : is stopped and restarted, does it start counting 'every second cycle' from that cycle or still from the start of the program
18:00:21 <ehird> printf :: (fmt :: Str) -> PrintfType fmt
18:00:25 <ehird> the regular example
18:00:40 <ehird> type PrintfType ('%':'i':xs) = Int -> PrintfType xs
18:01:05 <Deewiant> logicgap: And write it to the wiki page when you've decided :-P
18:01:25 <ehird> Few weeks? Heck, DOBELA can't be too hard.
18:01:29 <ehird> I might interpreteriper.
18:02:27 <Deewiant> Well, it depends what language you use, and whether you know that language already or not. :-P
18:03:02 <ais523> Deewiant: what language are you writing in, anyway?
18:03:17 <ais523> I suggest preconverter + ALPACA
18:03:55 <Deewiant> ehird: Which is why I asked whether you had a 64-bit Intel machine. :-)
18:04:04 <Deewiant> So you can test it for me and I can make it work on OS X.
18:04:30 <ehird> Deewiant: The recommended syscall api is some batshit insane _sysenter stuff; have fun with that
18:04:37 <logicgap> i'm recording a high quality printed copy of Test Card C with a camera
18:04:49 <Deewiant> ehird: I doubt it's much different from Linux
18:06:13 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, you can tell me when I've got it to work on Linux; it shouldn't be much of a problem.
18:06:20 <ais523> logicgap: may I recommend that from now on you shouldn't do things for no reason?
18:06:25 <ehird> So anyway, am I crazy to try and do this compilation:
18:06:26 <ehird> foo = [$re| ^[a-c]+z$ |] -> foo ('a':xs) = foo1 xs; foo ('b':xs) = foo1 xs; foo ('c':xs) = foo1 xs; foo _ = False; foo1 "z" = True; foo1 xs = foo xs
18:06:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Most likely I'll just end up with an extra 10 bytes per syscall (!)
18:06:57 <logicgap> and now i need to record it again guz it wasn't aligned
18:07:41 <ehird> I wonder if you can run the jvm as a daemon?
18:07:44 <ehird> Then there'd be no startup overhead
18:07:48 <ehird> And it'd just be fast fast fast.
18:08:03 <ais523> it has to be possible, although you might have to modify it first
18:08:09 <Deewiant> 3235 bytes statically linked, currently. Much of that is strings.
18:08:11 <ais523> that's actually a brilliant insane idea, I wonder if it's ever been done?
18:08:19 <ehird> "Jolt is a wrapper program that allows multiple invocations of the java, javac, javadoc, and jar tools to reuse the same JVM instance, thereby substantially improving the startup times of those tools. "
18:08:23 <ehird> http://freshmeat.net/projects/jvmd/
18:08:26 <ehird> Very sporadic development
18:08:29 <ehird> if you look at the release thing
18:08:32 <ehird> I'm going to try it though
18:08:58 * ehird checks if java 6 is released for os x yet
18:09:04 <ehird> stupid apple and their stupid lagging behind sun
18:09:31 <ehird> I said yesterday that I installed gnome the day before; I'm slightly irritated that it was easier to do a few things than it is on here :P
18:09:39 <ehird> (for someone else)
18:09:50 <logicgap> I should make a mechanical globe or something one day
18:10:31 <ehird> ais523_: Ubuntu 8.10 for x86_64
18:10:54 <ais523_> err... install Gnome on Ubuntu?
18:10:58 <ais523_> I thought it came preinstalled
18:11:09 <ehird> Installed a system using gnome, I mean.
18:11:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:11:18 <ehird> And it's the computer I used to use that my parents now use; you know, that died? Well, they got it fixed and I stuck Ubuntu on because Windows sucks.
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18:11:26 <ais523_> why is that different from installing a system using anything else?
18:11:26 <ehird> 17:11 ehird: And it's the computer I used to use that my parents now use; you know, that died? Well, they got it fixed and I stuck Ubuntu on because Windows sucks.
18:11:36 <Deewiant> ehird: According to http://mehrdadafshari.com/blog/archive/2008/07/04/darwin-linux-x86-64-system-call-convention.aspx it's the same on OS X as Linux
18:11:37 <ehird> ais523_: I'm not sure; I messed up my words there
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18:11:45 <ehird> Deewiant: That's the deprecated one
18:12:18 <Deewiant> ehird: Can you find a source for the undeprecated one?
18:12:33 <ehird> Deewiant: It's sysenter/sysexit
18:12:52 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, can you find a doc which says that
18:13:10 <Deewiant> ehird: I'm using syscall currently
18:13:12 <ehird> Deewiant: I can't find it now, no; I read it a few days ago on a site about low-level OS X programming that I find to be very reliable
18:13:25 <Deewiant> Which, I think, maps to the same thing
18:13:30 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, turns out Ubuntu is way simpler and easier to use than Windows; even using things like Flash/Java.
18:13:41 <ehird> Actually, the only thing that caused a problem was getting a 64-bit Java.
18:13:47 <Deewiant> ehird: The Intel asm docs only have syscall and not sysenter, so.
18:13:50 <ehird> It was only released in December
18:13:54 <ehird> So I had to download one of their packages
18:13:57 <ais523> actually, getting Java is pretty difficult on Windows too
18:14:00 <ehird> then symlink the right .so into the firefox plugins dir
18:14:11 <ehird> ais523: Nah, just a download and click click click. This was a bit fussy. But it works fine now.
18:14:50 <ehird> Ubuntu certainly worked better than it did on this mac, anyway.
18:15:14 <ehird> Actually it detected the USB wifi thing in that machine without even telling me; I connected just by clicking on the network, which was unexpected.
18:16:00 <ehird> Deewiant: you know that libconfig shit?
18:16:05 <ehird> That i had problems with yesterday?
18:16:10 <ehird> That javad is made by the same person
18:16:11 <ehird> http://www.hyperrealm.com/main.php?s=jolt
18:16:18 <ais523> ehird: which version of Ubuntu
18:16:27 <ehird> ais523: 8.10 for x86_64
18:16:38 <ais523> hmm... 8.10 works just by clicking on the network?
18:16:49 <ais523> I'm running it, but have to use a different network manager
18:16:52 <ehird> ais523: Well, you go into System -> Preferences -> Networking, or whatever
18:16:53 <ais523> due to a bug in the Gnome one
18:16:54 <ehird> then click wireless
18:17:03 <ais523> it used to be even easier than that
18:17:04 <ehird> it even connects at bootup automatically and whatnot
18:17:10 <ais523> click on the network systray icon, click on the network
18:17:10 <ehird> ais523: what did it use to be
18:17:15 <ehird> you can do that after that
18:17:19 <ehird> you can do it before too
18:17:21 <ehird> I just didn't think to
18:17:22 <ais523> yes, it used to work without an intermediate step
18:17:30 <ais523> ok, that's good, they haven't messed it up
18:18:01 <ehird> I'm surprised it recognized the USB wifi thing (It doesn't have an internal wireless card )
18:18:36 <ais523> modern Linux is very good with hardware recognition
18:18:40 <ais523> much better than Windows
18:18:50 <ais523> you plug a USB anything in on Linux, and it instantly starts working
18:18:55 <ais523> no popups or dialog boxes or anything
18:19:00 <ehird> You had to install a shit driver thing in windows
18:19:03 <ehird> and connect via it
18:19:09 <ais523> you plug a USB anything in on Windows, and it pops up bubbles and dialog boxes
18:19:15 <ais523> then sulks and asks for an administrator
18:19:20 <ehird> Yeah; the printer/scanner worked out of the box too.
18:19:50 <ehird> I just plugged it in and it appeared in the print menu.
18:19:53 <ehird> With the right name and everything.
18:19:56 <ehird> Scanner worked too.
18:19:59 <ehird> No configuration or anything.
18:20:26 <ehird> To be honest I think I jumped out of my seat
18:20:58 <ehird> joy, to run java6 you have to do
18:21:12 <ehird> /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6/Commands/java
18:22:05 * ehird makes it the default version
18:22:39 <ehird> java version "1.6.0_07"
18:22:41 <ehird> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_07-b06-153)
18:22:43 <ehird> Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 1.6.0_07-b06-57, mixed mode)
18:22:47 <ehird> Now to try this jolt thing.
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18:23:28 <ehird> Actualyl, I think you could do it fairly easily
18:23:37 <ehird> Just make a daemon in java that calls the JVM's execute thingymabob functions
18:23:50 <ehird> I wonder why Sun don't do that
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18:24:23 <ehird> In general, I believe that Ant is a silly toy, typically championed by
18:24:23 <ehird> people who do not understand or are intimidated by `make'. <-- says the guy using automake
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18:24:57 <ehird> checking if javac works... yes
18:24:57 <ehird> checking for extraterrestrial life... maybe
18:25:18 <ehird> AC_MSG_CHECKING([for extraterrestrial life])
18:25:20 <ehird> AC_MSG_RESULT(maybe)
18:25:23 <ais523> hmm... I need a check "Checking if the linker found works with the archiver found... no"
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18:25:29 <ais523> packaging bug on Ubuntu, I'm pretty sure
18:25:34 <ais523> but it's still a nasty error
18:25:44 <ehird> checking for JNI header files... configure: error: cannot find java include files
18:26:02 <ehird> at this rate I shall turn into a linux fan
18:46:54 <ehird> Oh, I had one issue with Ubuntu
18:47:08 <ehird> The music in the Enigma menus (I got bored :P) wouldn't play.
18:47:11 <ehird> All the sfx still worked
18:47:20 <ehird> Same for htis java game: http://www.pulpgames.net/milpa/
18:47:27 <ehird> Probably a codec issue
18:48:18 <ehird> ais523: try enigma Espirit 82
18:48:22 <ehird> It has coffee and is impossible/
18:48:54 <ehird> not that impossible
18:49:54 <ais523> ehird: I've already done Esprit 82
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19:55:51 <ehird> In addition, candidates need to know at least one of these dynamic languages: Lisp, Scheme, Smalltalk, Self, Lua, and Unlambda
19:55:53 <ehird> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sof/1083022531.html
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19:56:41 <ehird> I can't tell if they're serious.
19:56:41 <ais523> someone's either criminally deluded, or having a bit of a laugh
19:56:53 <ehird> We are looking for someone that knows at least one of the following functional languages: Haskell, Miranda, Clean, OCaml, SML, or Scala.
19:56:56 <ehird> We are a super stealthy Hollywood, CA, tech startup located in the penthouse offices of a loft-style building. We are in search of the rumored Delta Squad Developer who could fit all the ridiculous languages that our 12-person software company is looking for.
19:56:59 <ehird> Job hires will ride out the economic crisis on Southern California’s sunny beaches, among artistic rebels, intellectual exiles, and maybe a hunky/buxom lifeguard or two. Don’t worry about staying at a boring job for the money — you can even pick up some supplemental cash as an extra on the new Knight Rider TV show!
19:57:08 <ehird> I _have_ seen serious job ads that retarded
19:57:18 <ehird> but it seems like a parody of them
19:57:31 <ehird> ais523: or not. They have a site. http://borderstylo.com/
19:58:31 <ehird> ais523: you should email them, saying you're a world expert in unlambda
19:58:36 <ehird> the best part is that it's absolutely true
19:58:56 <ais523> I'm not all that good at Unlambda at all
19:59:02 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Single_Four
19:59:15 <ehird> ais523: You know it; considering how obscure it is I'd say you're an expert.
19:59:34 <ehird> http://fourisland.com/
19:59:38 <ehird> YAY PI! I dun have anything else to say this week, so, CATDOG!
19:59:38 <ehird> 3.141 yumminess! - 7 vote(s)!
19:59:40 <ehird> No, Phi is teh cooliness - 2 vote(s)!
19:59:42 <ehird> NO, YOU CATDOG - 0 vote(s)!
19:59:44 <ehird> Indifferent - 1 vote(s)!
19:59:51 <ehird> I see the creator of that language is very intelligent.
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20:00:19 <ais523> it's like, an intelligent-seeming subject, plus lolspeak and memes I don't understand
20:00:51 <ehird> it's the "Internet RANDAM Idiot" species
20:01:03 <ehird> primarily noted for describing themselves as "sooo random".
20:01:24 <ais523> hmm... does Single Four have any form of looping?
20:01:27 <Slereah_> "Your mother may call you a card but I call you a jackass"
20:01:28 <ais523> it's obviously TC, apart from that
20:01:42 <ehird> does it have functions?
20:02:05 <Slereah_> http://other.fourisland.com/backup/SF/functions.txt
20:02:12 <ais523> it has predefined functions
20:02:17 <ais523> I can't see a way to define your own, though
20:02:54 <Slereah_> Function definition is for the weak!
20:02:54 * ehird writes some SVG+JS. An underappreciated platform!
20:03:05 <ehird> It's like canvas except vector.
20:03:12 <ais523> agreed that it's underappreciated
20:03:17 <ais523> it is, in fact, the w3c's answer to Flash
20:03:19 <ais523> just it never caught on
20:03:20 <ehird> Of course you have to use the human-unreadable SVG bloatfes.
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20:06:09 <oklofok> only took like 30 hours of my weekend
20:06:20 <fizzie> oklofok: Writing or reading?
20:06:25 <oklofok> i'm now an expert at software engineering.
20:06:52 <fizzie> Right, 30 hours didn't sound like a lot for writing a book.
20:06:56 <oklofok> anyway should probably start reading the lecture notes
20:08:03 <oklofok> i was kinda sick during the week, so i had two days to read about 350 pages, and it was a pretty slow read
20:08:24 <fizzie> Our software engineering course has all exams and homeworks and such asking questions like "what did Mr. X [a random visiting lecturer] thing about Y?", so you need to either be at all lectures, or watch (via a horrible browser-based kludge) the webcasts of them to have any chance of answering "correctly".
20:09:19 <oklofok> ours was a pretty thorough exploration of the non-experimental methods used today
20:10:01 <oklofok> i don't actually need to buy anything that badly
20:10:50 <ehird> Great, you can't use <script src=> in SVG.
20:11:37 <fizzie> Like this final exam question: "Documentation and evaluation of software architectures according to Mr. Juha Savolainen", where the guy is one of the visiting lecturists. You'd better not disagree, since they're not asking what *you* think.
20:15:43 <oklofok> hehe, told this other guy who's taking the exam tomorrow too that i just finished the book, and he was like "what book? i should probably start studying soon."
20:16:01 <ais523> it has to be either that or -1, if you think about it
20:16:07 <ais523> after all, all the bits are 0
20:16:13 <ais523> so they all have to either turn to 0, or to 1
20:16:23 <ehird> I'm working with bits here
20:16:34 <ais523> "false, or false, but not both"
20:16:42 <ais523> you're confusing xor with nand
20:17:08 <oklofok> ais523: i'm pretty sure i'd need to share some intuitive view with you about xor to see what you mean by it having to be either 0 or -1
20:17:21 <oklofok> or wait did you explain already
20:17:28 <ais523> oklofok: it's a bitwise operation
20:17:33 <ais523> all the bits on the input are the same
20:17:39 <oklofok> i tend to write my answers to single messages without reading continuations
20:17:46 <ais523> so the output has to be either all 0 bits (= 0), or all 1 bits (= -1)
20:17:58 <ehird> ... return ''.join(map(lambda (x, y): chr(x ^ y), zip(map(ord, a), map(ord, b))))
20:18:02 <ehird> >>> op('hello', 'world')
20:18:04 <ehird> '\x1f\n\x1e\x00\x0b'
20:18:06 <ehird> >>> op(op('hello', 'world'), 'world')
20:18:10 <ehird> >>> op('hello', op('hello', 'world'))
20:18:14 <ehird> 1337 ENCRYPTION ZOMG.
20:18:16 <ehird> I like how if you have the plaintext you can get the key, though.
20:18:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: look, i'm bored, k.
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20:21:20 <fizzie> a ^= b; b ^= a; a ^= b; /* the ur-classic xor-swap. i am equally bored, i guess. */
20:21:30 <ehird> fizzie: holy shit lowercase stop being 2003
20:21:47 <fizzie> It's a code comment, I've had a lowercase revival in those.
20:22:12 <ais523> fizzie: that fails badly if &a == &b...
20:22:51 <fizzie> Although I still always capsize I even there; it's just that it was at the start of sentence and I wanted it to be obviously lowercased.
20:23:45 -!- ehird has changed nick to charlesfosterkan.
20:23:59 -!- charlesfosterkan has changed nick to ehird.
20:24:17 <ais523> ehird: why leave #nethack just to change your nick, by the way?
20:24:27 <ehird> ais523: so I didn't disturb other channels with it.
20:24:45 <ais523> how's your nethacking going, btw?
20:25:13 <ehird> Well, the day after I did other things, the day after that I was busy installing Ubuntu, and yesterday I was doing other things.
20:25:17 <ehird> So relatively zilch-like.
20:28:32 <ehird> Grah, the DOM is so ugly.
20:35:42 <ehird> var title = document.createElement("title");
20:35:43 <ehird> title.appendChild(document.createTextNode("SVG + Javascript"));
20:35:45 <ehird> document.getElementsByTagName("svg")[0].appendChild(title);
20:35:50 <ehird> <title>SVG + Javascript</title>
20:36:15 <ehird> Judofyr: Does jQuery work with SVG?
20:36:23 <ehird> No HTML surrounding it; just SVG.
20:36:43 <Judofyr> or, does JavaScript work with plain SVG?
20:37:01 <fizzie> jQuery had some XUL issues, so maybe it has SVG problems too.
20:37:11 <ehird> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
20:37:14 <ehird> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
20:37:16 <ehird> xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink"
20:37:24 <ehird> <script type="text/javscript" xlink:href="svgjs.js"></script>
20:37:29 <ehird> Hmm, that could be /> since we're XML.
20:38:34 <ehird> Oh, what fun. The title doesn't actually take effect.
20:39:26 <fizzie> You might have to alter some property of the window object to actually change the title, post-load. Who knows.
20:39:49 <ehird> var svg = document.getElementsByTagName("svg")[0];
20:39:50 <ehird> var $elem = document.createElement;
20:39:51 <ehird> var $text = document.createTextNode;
20:39:55 <ehird> svg.appendChild($elem("title").appendChild($text("SVG + Javascript")));
20:39:58 <ehird> Assuming appendChild returns self.
20:41:55 <ehird> Element.prototype.add = function () {
20:41:57 <ehird> for (i = 0; i < arguments.length; i++) {
20:41:59 <ehird> this.appendChild(arguments[i]);
20:42:09 <ehird> Oh wait, "add" is taken.
20:43:50 <fizzie> I would rather like to write an IRC client with XUL + JavaScript, so that you could (a) style the looks with CSS and other that fluff and (b) it'd be very easily javascript-scriptable. TCP sockets with XPCOM/XPconnect do seem to act a bit peculiarly, though. (I don't much like this eks-chat.)
20:44:00 <ehird> "43 fizzie: I would rather like to write an IRC client with XUL + JavaScript"
20:44:23 <ehird> Fits everything you said; also sucks.
20:44:37 <fizzie> Yes, well, a non-sucky version might... not suck.
20:44:54 <oerjan> a tautology might be a tautology
20:45:56 <ehird> >document.createTextNode.apply(["a"])
20:45:57 <ehird> >document.createTextNode("a")
20:46:01 <ehird> HOW DELICIOUSLY RETARDED.
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20:47:08 <fizzie> Admittedly I've never looked at Chatzilla very closely. It does seem to be css-styleable (although the message window is a hueg table element) and javascript-scriptable; which makes sense, but you can't always count on common sense.
20:48:34 <zzo38> You could write a IRC client in XUL if you want to, using the sockets if you can figure it out. But for me netcat is good enough
20:48:48 <ehird> You use netcat as an IRC client? :D
20:49:38 <fizzie> jslib has a more user-friendly version of sockets, but I made the mistake of looking at the horrible javascript code in it, so now I'm not so sure I could abide using it.
20:49:55 <ehird> Okay, _nothing_'s displaying in my SVG.
20:50:06 * ais523 wonders if zzo38 knows how to type a CTCP VERSION response in netcat
20:50:09 <ehird> fizzie: I wonder if you can access the sockets from a regular web page somehow?
20:50:11 <ehird> ais523: yeah, I did that :)
20:50:20 <ehird> fizzie: An SVG+Javascript IRC client would be iiinteresting.
20:50:22 <zzo38> I always use netcat for IRC. I don't have anything else and don't really like most real IRC clients anyways.
20:50:40 <fizzie> ehird: Maybe I could make it like MS Comic Chat.
20:51:07 <zzo38> I know how to respond to VERSION command and I think I just did. I have seen other CTRL+A commands also that I don't understand, I asked the sender and they told me what it means
20:51:18 <ehird> I didn't see a response.
20:51:26 <ais523> [19:50] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from zzo38: I already told you I used netcat, too, ais523..
20:51:53 <fizzie> And no, I'm pretty sure only a chrome:// URL has the right magic to use xpconnect. Although I have a feeling you can apply for the privileges and have it pop up a box asking "do you want this to happen".
20:52:01 <ehird> I now intend to sue SVG, on account of its abject failure to work.
20:53:34 <zzo38> Once I received a CTRL+A command that I couldn't find it documented on Google or anywhere but the sender knew what it meant.
20:54:10 <fizzie> Oh, you can't do netscape.security.PrivilegeManager.enablePrivilege('universalXPConnect'); from http://-loaded content either. I guess they're afraid of users in the "ok everything" mode.
20:54:37 <zzo38> You need to make a XUL-runner application
20:54:54 <fizzie> I know; ehird just asked about regular pages.
20:57:23 <fizzie> I haven't seen much XUL-over-HTTP stuff done, probably just because of these security restrictions for non-chrome content. You can't do javascript-based custom tree models either in http content, so you have to DOM-manipulate the tree or something equally ugly.
20:57:47 <fizzie> Well, maybe more because of the browser-specificness, but anyway.
20:58:07 <zzo38> I tried to write the Deutsch algorithm in CLCLC-INTERCAL but I'm not sure if I have done it correctly. Reply on IRC even if I am not connected; I will read the log.
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20:58:42 <Sgeo> Anyone here ever do pseudomathish stuff when they were younger?
20:59:09 * Sgeo has, among other things, tried to define division by zero and a number "ati" such that |ati|=-1
20:59:32 <ais523> ok, that ati is an interesting one
20:59:51 <ais523> defining |x| as sqrt(x*x) you might be able to do it
20:59:59 <ais523> zzo38: I have no idea if you've done it correctly either
21:00:17 <ais523> reading an all-new dialect of INTERCAL is pretty tricky until you get used to it
21:00:18 <ais523> and without an implementation, things can be hard to learn
21:00:24 <Sgeo> |x| as sqrt(x*x) would mean that i is ati
21:00:33 <Sgeo> and I'm pretty sure that |i|=1
21:00:39 <ehird> 20:00 Sgeo: |x| as sqrt(x*x) would mean that i is ati
21:00:56 <Sgeo> It means the definition of |x| is wrong, I think
21:00:58 <ais523> it's just to do with what definition of |x| you use
21:01:05 <ais523> the definition I gave works fine for real numbers
21:01:15 <ais523> and there's more than one way to extend it over the complex numbers
21:01:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's because |x| = sqrt(x*conj(x))
21:01:34 <ehird> oerjan: that's not elegant.
21:03:48 <Sgeo> THat.. string ofm symbols doesn't make sense to me
21:03:53 <ehird> yeah multiplying by nothing is elegant</deliberate-misunderstanding>
21:03:53 <Sgeo> What's with the last *?
21:04:21 <oerjan> you might prefer an overbar
21:04:22 <ehird> also, defining division by zero is trivial
21:04:26 <ehird> you just need a bunch of infinities
21:04:32 <ais523> oerjan: but x*x* is pretty
21:04:42 <ais523> and actually unambiguous as long as you don't have a meaning for prefix *
21:04:46 <ais523> Slereah_: not-a-number, obviously
21:04:54 <ehird> Slereah_: infinity_0
21:04:57 <Slereah_> Then you can't define it everywhere!
21:05:07 <ehird> You need 0 0s to produce a 0.
21:05:13 <Sgeo> ehird, I eventually "found" that if you looked on a scale of infinities, than all the n/0 numbers became like one "point", whatever I meant by that
21:05:21 <Slereah_> Technically, the answer should be R
21:05:54 <Slereah_> But those damn functions and their "one results per operation"
21:05:56 <Sgeo> I remember telling a friend that "2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0"
21:06:11 <ehird> One word nullity thread over
21:06:36 <Sgeo> Slereah_, I don't do drugs. Anyway, this was in 6th grade or earlier
21:07:04 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory
21:08:43 <Sgeo> ..I once decided that inf = -inf and therefore instead of a number line, the reality is a number circle
21:08:45 <Sgeo> Is that related?
21:08:52 <ehird> Sgeo: that's awesome.
21:10:33 <oerjan> the complex numbers are usually completed with a single infinity in that way
21:11:21 <Slereah_> They can be, depending on the field
21:11:38 <oerjan> in general, it's known as the alexandroff one-point compactification
21:12:25 <oerjan> Slereah_: riemann sphere?
21:13:24 <Slereah_> You just use complex numbers as RxR
21:13:48 <oerjan> Slereah_: obviously i mean "usually" _if_ they are completed
21:14:01 <ehird> Cool, it's working.
21:14:37 <oerjan> "It also finds utility in other disciplines that depend on analysis and geometry, such as quantum mechanics and other branches of physics."
21:15:29 <Slereah_> Maybe I'll see that next year.
21:19:26 <ehird> Hey, this is actually going pretty smoothley.
21:27:02 <ehird> I have a circle I can hover over to swap its colours, and it smoothly grows by 10% of the screen every time you click it.
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21:32:28 <ehird> Can SVG embed bitmaps?
21:32:51 <ais523> although I'm not sure how, offhand
21:36:05 <fizzie> Just stick an image element there.
21:36:14 <fizzie> "The 'image' element can refer to raster image files such as PNG or JPEG or to files with MIME type of "image/svg+xml"."
21:36:23 <ais523> ehird: I definitely remember being told that it's true, but it's second-hand information
21:36:31 <ais523> which can always be unreliable due to someone lying to me, for instance
21:36:43 <ehird> I assume SVG is more efficient than canvas for vector stuff.
21:36:52 <ehird> fizzie: What about embedded bitmap stuff?
21:37:25 <fizzie> If you mean data embedded in the svg file, just use a data URL or something. If you mean something else, do something else.
21:37:50 <ehird> Mmph. A data URL. Not the most efficient thing to pixel push on.
21:38:16 <fizzie> Oh, images-you-can-draw-pixels-on. That it might not have.
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21:39:30 <fizzie> You can draw with canvas and then use toDataURL to get it as image. :p
21:40:10 <ehird> You could just embed <html><body><canvas///>
21:40:22 <ehird> And, I guess, rotate that about and stuff like normal.
21:41:03 <oerjan> yeah and draw a cheeseburger
21:41:09 <fizzie> Can you really triply-terminate a tag like that?
21:42:09 <ais523> <tag///> is a brilliant idea
21:42:16 <ais523> sort of shorttags-like, although it conflicts with shorttags
21:42:37 <ais523> or maybe just <///> as an extention to shorttag's </>
21:44:11 <fizzie> Could you do <html/<body/<canvas//// in SGML? It's got that null end-tag thing.
21:44:15 <ehird> psygnisfive: nothing.
21:44:36 <fizzie> Maybe you could. "<P/Nested <EM/net-enabling start-tags/ are permitted, as this example shows./"
21:53:42 <ehird> Ugh, rotating SVG elements makes them move wildly off screen.
21:55:56 <ehird> RMS now argues against javascript because your browser is evil and will run unfree programs without you realising it.
21:55:56 <ehird> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html
21:56:49 <ais523> ehird: wow, that's some hatred for unfree programs
21:57:09 <ehird> Also, he unintentionally shits on the Moonlight/Mono guys: " A free replacement for Silverlight would hardly be of use in the free world without free replacement codecs."
21:57:46 <ehird> (some say "open") <-- he is so obsessed with his terminology...
21:57:47 <ais523> oh, most of the amazing crazy open source people hate mono anyway
21:57:59 <ais523> in case there are hidden microsoft patents it's infringing
21:58:08 <ehird> "First of all, browsers should be able to tell the user about nontrivial non-free Javascript programs, rather than running them."
21:58:10 <lament> a free replacement for silverlight would be pretty useless because silverlight is shit
21:58:19 <ehird> First of all we need a strong AI that can read JavaScript"
22:02:16 <ehird> Wonder how to rotate in place
22:11:23 * oerjan did not expect that smiley
22:17:02 <ehird> hrmph, it seems hard
22:18:17 <ehird> hmm, gmail has no "Next thread in any folder" key
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23:30:40 <ais523> hmm... someone finally got a refund of the microsoft tax from HP, but he had to start suing them in order to get them to settle: http://ernstfamily.ch/jonathan/2009/03/hp-refunds-520-of-software/
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