00:00:10 <ehird> AnMaster: welcome bac
00:00:12 <AnMaster> radio went out with public message
00:00:28 <ehird> AnMaster: aliens‽‽
00:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, major gas leak in big city
00:00:41 <ehird> AnMaster: of the deadly kind, I assume?
00:01:10 <ehird> i'd interject with something like "that's what you get for being a dirty swede!" but it seems inappropriate
00:01:25 * ehird waits for the BBC to pick it up
00:01:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it cut off in the middle of the news. Right in the middle of a sentence.
00:01:57 <ehird> AnMaster: ... what caused that? The gas?
00:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: must be pretty bad tthen
00:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, "please go indoor and close all windows door and ventilation"
00:02:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Severe, then.
00:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, from some industry there it seems.
00:03:06 * ehird F5 F5 F5 F5 on bbc.co.uk
00:03:09 <ehird> (well okay, Cmd-R)
00:04:24 <AnMaster> ehird, there is nothing on the news anywhere about it yet...
00:04:35 <ehird> AnMaster: must be very early report then
00:04:38 <ehird> no time to write anything about it
00:04:46 <ehird> which implies that the leak is very serious
00:06:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you've got me all jumpy now :P
00:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, not that Swedish radio is very nocturnal. One channel shuts down after 01:30 until 06:00, one sends classical music streamed from BBC(!), the remaining two sends the same thing during the night, pop music.
00:09:18 * ehird F5s sr.se too for good measure
00:10:27 <ehird> AnMaster: also, wait
00:10:48 <ehird> well, it seems like there wouldn't be many windows open at 2am :-P
00:11:13 <AnMaster> ehird, um, I slept with open window since mid-April
00:11:23 <ehird> AnMaster: in sweden?
00:11:24 <oklodok> ehird: even if you're up at 2am?
00:11:27 <ehird> must freeze to death
00:11:43 <ehird> oklodok: well, the windows in this house generally get closed when it gets cold at night
00:11:44 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. I have a secret weapon
00:11:46 <oklodok> at least here it's been summer for weeks
00:11:58 <ehird> oklodok: but it never really gets warm in .fi/.se does it :-P
00:12:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, no ventilation in this house, it is too old
00:12:27 <ehird> this is a victorian sort of house I think
00:12:33 <ehird> so half of a victorian house
00:12:35 <ehird> well, it's sort of a flat
00:12:40 <ehird> the bathroom is up a flight of stairs
00:13:00 <oklodok> ehird: i don't know about your standards, but warm enough that i might keep a window open if i ever did
00:13:07 <ehird> oklodok: what celsius?
00:13:24 <ehird> AnMaster: waddya mean be freestanding
00:14:23 <AnMaster> ehird, like http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Villa-nyköping-ostra4.JPG
00:14:35 <ehird> AnMaster: term is "detached house"
00:14:44 <AnMaster> ehird, kay. in Swedish it is "villa"
00:14:48 <ehird> I live in a flat in a terrace, so not nearly as free as that :-P
00:15:13 <ehird> AnMaster: a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_house containing flats.
00:15:34 <ehird> if you're oh so very american
00:15:54 <oklodok> ehird: i don't really know. i saw a 14 a few mornings ago, but it was very early.
00:16:06 <ehird> oklodok: 14C is what it's like here at night :-P
00:16:20 <ehird> 10C atm outside and it's midnight
00:16:39 <fizzie> http://outside.hut.fi/ is the temperature sensor at our university, but it gets direct sunlight, like you can see from the graphs.
00:16:41 <ehird> fizzie: yeah but it's sweden. their celsi-ii is colder.
00:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, Finland is colder than Sweden
00:17:10 <ehird> I meant that fizzie's 10C is colder than my 10C
00:17:24 <ehird> it's a law of finnishology
00:17:28 <oklodok> fizzie: wow that graph is pretty
00:17:40 <ehird> oklodok: it's like a sine wave after a beating
00:17:48 <fizzie> There's that five-years-or-so big graph at http://outside.hut.fi/five.html which might average out the worst sunlight-freak-o-temperatures.
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00:18:06 <fizzie> Since it's 24h average, or so they say.
00:18:32 <fizzie> The radiolab or some other people had a real weather-station readings, but I can never remember the URL for that.
00:19:02 <AnMaster> ehird, also, slightly open, not wide open
00:19:14 <AnMaster> http://www.yr.no says it is 8 C here
00:19:47 <fizzie> Oh, there it is. http://radio.tkk.fi/en/weather/ has some real data.
00:19:50 <AnMaster> ehird, rained today, so colder than yesterday
00:20:40 <ehird> still nothing on bbc or that sr.se thing
00:28:26 <AnMaster> "Ammoniakutsläpp i Stenungsund"
00:28:30 <AnMaster> http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd
00:28:42 <ehird> AnMaster: /me runs google translate
00:28:51 <ehird> AnMaster: national crisis bad?
00:28:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
00:29:09 <ehird> AnMaster: holy. fucking. shit.
00:29:22 <AnMaster> says it was unclear how large it was
00:29:52 <ehird> Sorry, we are unable to translate the page you requested.
00:29:52 <ehird> http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd
00:29:58 <AnMaster> "Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering." <-- emergency service had not requested any help with evacuation at the time of writing. Well I guess that changed since
00:30:24 <ehird> AnMaster: could you translate the tagline and the two paragraphs?
00:30:46 <AnMaster> Ammoniakutsläpp i Stenungsund <-- Leak of ammonia in Stenungsund
00:30:56 <AnMaster> Ett utsläpp av ammoniak har skett vid Axo Nobels anläggning i Stenungsund. Räddningstjänsten har i radion gått ut med ett så kallat Viktigt meddelande där allmänheten uppmanas att stanna inne, stänga fönster och ventilation.
00:32:08 <AnMaster> A leak of ammonia has happened at Axo Nobel's plant/facility in Stenungsund. The Emergency service has in radio sent a so called Important message where people are asked to stay indoors, close windows and ventilation
00:32:31 <AnMaster> (couldn't be arsed to try to fix it)
00:32:36 <AnMaster> Det var vid midnatt oklart hur stort utsläppet är.
00:32:36 <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:32:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "a so called Important" :-D
00:32:53 <AnMaster> It is at midnight it unclear how large the leak is.
00:33:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I think that is an official name "Important message"
00:33:35 <AnMaster> it was with upper case in Swedish
00:33:39 <ehird> since "so called X" means doubtfully-X
00:33:40 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:33:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like that in Swedish
00:33:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:35:07 <AnMaster> But (according to the police's communication central) the emergency service had not (at midnight) requested any help with barricades or evacuation.
00:35:10 <oklodok> AnMaster: <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:35:44 <oklodok> who cares about some silly catastrophy, let's just play the nick pasting game
00:35:58 <ehird> 00:35 oklodok: AnMaster: <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:36:01 <AnMaster> I was trying to get back on topic
00:36:05 <ehird> AnMaster: gotta agree with him here, this is #esoteric
00:37:21 <oklodok> 5 pages to go, and i'll be done, and my next exam isn't in long times!
00:37:25 <AnMaster> http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/ttnyheter/inrikes/article5177106.ab
00:37:36 <ehird> AnMaster: it'll come from a news agency
00:37:40 <ehird> like Reuters or AP
00:38:34 <oklodok> ehird are you still benchmarking bbc response time?
00:38:54 <ehird> oklodok: can I hire you to be funny at me all day?
00:39:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that can't be very pleasant
00:39:20 <ehird> click. wait. click. wait. click. wait. gee, if only I could drag
00:39:46 <oklodok> ehird: i don't think i'd work well paid by hour
00:39:58 <ehird> oklodok: flat monthly rate?
00:40:02 <AnMaster> ehird, lim_(x -> 0) x = google response time
00:40:18 <oklodok> ehird: well i'm all for a steady income :P
00:40:21 <ehird> AnMaster: well sure but :P
00:40:29 <AnMaster> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Stenungsund&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&split=0&ei=fvERSvCXIcnDsgaFoOSJDg&output=html&zoom=3&zp=OOOOOO
00:40:43 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't even click!
00:40:55 <ehird> you can't click on the map itself
00:40:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is for mobile phones
00:41:10 <ehird> too wide fram efor that
00:41:30 <oklodok> for every length of time there is a piece of news google caught on before said time had elapsed
00:42:16 <AnMaster> I remember trying without JS before
00:42:19 <ehird> Joke site idea: silentcarreview.com
00:42:31 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like a good idea
00:42:44 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd have to silence all the other motorists' cars too :-P
00:43:06 <ehird> it won't make much difference if you're the only silent car on the road will it
00:43:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but make everyone buy one
00:43:35 <ehird> well if we're going down that route make it mandatory that everyone own a kitten
00:43:38 <ehird> morale will improve instantly
00:45:09 <AnMaster> ehird, allergic to them. Can't
00:45:32 <ehird> AnMaster: if I was allergic to kittens I'd never get out of bed
00:45:38 <ehird> i'd just lie there thinking about how worthless my life is
00:46:08 <AnMaster> ehird, allergic to dogs, cats and some sorts of pollen.
00:46:17 <ehird> well dogs is okay i don't like dogs
00:46:21 <ehird> and pollen isn't cute and fluffy
00:46:56 <oklodok> AnMaster: weren't you supposed to sleep?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
00:50:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "situation under control"
00:50:52 <oklodok> AnMaster: hmm no, my thinking cannot explain it
00:51:07 <ehird> AnMaster: boring, i was hoping for like, zombie outbreak
00:51:19 <oklodok> yeah those are always interesting for a while
00:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't be nice. I know people in that area.
00:51:37 <ehird> yes, but, zombies kind of outweigh that
00:51:53 <AnMaster> the effect is just dead people
00:51:59 <ehird> dead people turn into zombies via magic
00:52:03 <fizzie> Phngh. Finally got graded those AI course project-works. Meh, I've been making snide comments about our TCS lab professors who reply to emails in the middle of the night; but now I self sent those grades out at 02:30 am or so.
00:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, they still don't know how much leaked. But the leak is "probably" stopped
00:53:14 <AnMaster> they suspect that the tank that leaked wasn't full
00:53:23 <ehird> AnMaster: how comforting!
00:53:45 <AnMaster> http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd
00:53:59 <ehird> brb learning to read swedish
00:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, copy paste to google translate
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00:54:34 <AnMaster> ehird, was it better we had that huge fire just a bit south of here? Last year.
00:54:44 <ehird> - Situation is under control. We do not yet know how much has been leaked. But the weather is favorable, there is no wind that can spread a possible gasmoln. It smells of nothing, which suggests that it is not so much leaked, "said Bengt Carlsson.
00:54:49 <AnMaster> ehird, 8 fire brigades worked on it at max
00:54:49 <ehird> it smells of nothing
00:54:52 <ehird> what a way to detect
00:55:02 <ehird> It is a tank when it is filled capacity of 3 000 cubic meters of ammonia for some reason leaked.
00:55:07 <ehird> 3,000 cubic meters? ouch
00:55:18 <AnMaster> ehird, could have been bad yeah
00:55:31 <ehird> the translation obscured the meaning
00:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, "It is a tank which when filled has a capacity of 3 000 ..."
00:55:57 <ehird> the real reason i was scared is that sweden is a province of finland
00:56:02 <ehird> one of the 3 people living there could have got hurt
00:56:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> the real reason i was scared is that sweden is a province of finland <--- technically wrong
00:56:39 <ehird> no no totally true
00:57:39 <ehird> finland used to be a province of sweden
00:57:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, was it better we had that huge fire just a bit south of here? Last year. <AnMaster> ehird, 8 fire brigades worked on it at max
00:57:48 <ehird> but then time-space warped and Finland-space started
00:57:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "better" how
00:57:55 <AnMaster> wind was blowing the smoke my way
00:58:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I mentioned it in here then
00:58:23 <ehird> i don't recall last year
01:00:00 <fizzie> He's probably lulling us to a false sense of security; he'll jump out of hiding and attack any minute now.
01:00:07 <oklodok> 3000 cubic meters... could probably be used as a blue whale aquarium
01:00:43 <ehird> oklodok: yes store them in ammonia
01:01:29 <fizzie> 3000 cubic meters is still just a cube with approximately 14.422 meter sides. That's not so big.
01:02:09 <oklodok> it's quite big for an aquarium
01:02:24 <oklodok> in fact i don't think i've seen one as big
01:03:54 <fizzie> The boat-building department here at TKK has a pool of 7865 cubic meters (5.5 meters deep, 11 meters wide, 130 meters long), but that's just plain old water.
01:04:26 <oklodok> how many blue whales is that?
01:04:27 <ehird> fizzie: omg awesome
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01:04:46 <fizzie> They also advertise the "world's largest 40 x 40 meter ice-model-test-pool where you can perform experiments with 70 mm thick model ice", but they don't say how deep that thing is.
01:05:16 <fizzie> http://www.tkk.fi/Units/Ship/General/ and then the "ship laboratory"; it's a silly javascript thing that'll toggle the content open.
01:05:48 <fizzie> The English version doesn't say "world's largest"; only the Finnish one has that. Heh.
01:06:07 <ehird> they don't want to reveal their secrets
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01:06:26 <fizzie> Hopefully they build better ships than web pages.
01:07:40 <fizzie> There's wave-making machinery in both pools (except it's called a "basin", that sounds more officious); I'm *very* certain the students use them as huge-ass swimming pools (don't move the dash again) when no-one's looking.
01:07:59 <ehird> fizzie: huge ass-swimming pools
01:08:18 <ehird> huge ass swimming po-ols
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01:16:02 <oklodok> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
01:16:13 <ehird> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
01:16:47 <oklodok> i don't have a care in the world
01:19:23 <ehird> oklodok: well because glo-fold
01:25:47 <Sgeo> Metaplace is open beta!
01:26:23 <Sgeo> Pavitra's on MP
01:29:17 <Sgeo> w00t, it's possilble to go into the MP Central waters!
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01:36:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: grep on what
01:36:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's such a real-world operation.
01:38:13 <bsmntbombdood> i remember reading an article detailing how someone used DFAs to grep at like 12 gb/s
01:38:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: grep is singlethreaded
01:38:51 <ehird> how can it be faster w/ ht
01:39:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you said "grep"
01:39:40 <ehird> not "my parallel grep"
01:39:45 <ehird> which skews the results
01:41:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: try fgrep
01:41:21 <ehird> I bet you could hit 12gb/s
01:41:39 <bsmntbombdood> naw, grep uses the same algorithm on fixed strings
01:41:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but with less processing itme
01:41:54 <ehird> due to not having to interpret special chars
01:41:58 <bsmntbombdood> boyer-moore judging from the fact that you get better speed on longer strings
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01:43:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: cat it to a file
01:44:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you have more ram than my first HD size
01:45:35 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: What, you expect it to create entropy?
01:45:42 <ehird> pikhq: it's urandom
01:45:44 <ehird> it's meant to make shit up
01:45:46 <bsmntbombdood> i am running 8 dd's of /dev/urandom and each cpu is only at 35%
01:45:48 <ehird> random is the one that freezes
01:46:12 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It's not going to make entropy.
01:46:19 <pikhq> It's going to pretend to have entropy.
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01:47:56 <pikhq> Well if you specify "computationally bounded"... So are primes, for some notion of computationaly bounded. :p
01:48:35 <pikhq> Depends on the psuedorandom number generator.
01:49:01 <bsmntbombdood> /dev/urandom is purported to be cryptographically secure
01:50:19 <bsmntbombdood> $ time echo ran* ran* ran* ran* ran* ran*| xargs -n 1 -P 8 grep foobarbaz
01:51:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: your rig is amazing. challenged only by my future one ;-)
01:52:02 <pikhq> ehird: God, if I had $10,000 in disposable income.
01:52:12 <ehird> pikhq: not that much! bsmnt's cost $1,7000
01:52:16 <bsmntbombdood> $ time echo ran* ran* ran* ran* ran* ran*| xargs -n 1 -P 8 fgrep foobarbadsfkj09i3209ilksajdfkljaslfjlasfjdlkajsfdlkjalsfjdksajdfkljaslllfkdkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkazffffffffffassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
01:52:27 <pikhq> ehird: Our uberbuild.
01:52:30 <ehird> mine will probably cost about $4,000
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01:59:12 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Uh, you do realise that file access consists of system time, right?
02:06:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arl.wustl.edu%2F~sarang%2Fjsac_cameraready.pdf&ei=mAUSSpCGG8OHtgfOoeWACA&usg=AFQjCNGdR0vyT1iYMrr6xRtEeUuwGhjSAg&sig2=tdY3YBP1h0x85tTt4DtNPw
02:07:22 <bsmntbombdood> a measly core i7 is way faster than their specialized hardware
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03:04:34 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: wc(1) counts shit. Grep does regexps.
03:52:20 <Sgeo> I love Allegiance
03:52:21 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ__4qWLO7E
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06:21:35 <asiekierka> Heh, I had a scoring idea for BF Joust
06:21:57 <asiekierka> draws are 0, wins are +1 and loses are -1
06:22:13 <asiekierka> So for example if a program wins with the bot on 20 tape sizes but loses on one, it has 19 points
06:22:22 <asiekierka> Now, it battles with every program in the list other than itself
06:22:43 <asiekierka> so if there are 10 programs and the program we're talking about is not one of these
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11:39:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: omg Darths and Droids
11:42:47 <fizzie> It *so* has not been ten years. Soon you'll be telling me it's been over ten years since the Matrix.
11:43:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, when was Matrix released
11:43:42 <oerjan> fizzie: well it's been ten years according to our clocks. the simulation of course runs much faster.
11:43:48 <oerjan> probably a couple hours
11:44:00 <fizzie> March 1999, apparently.
11:44:23 <AnMaster> then it is 10 years + some months I guess.
11:45:32 <fizzie> 1984; I had just managed to be born the year before.
11:46:59 <fizzie> So even Terminator 2 can now drink alcoholic beverages. (Well, depending on the local age limits and so on; it's 18 around here.)
11:47:10 <AnMaster> I never seen Terminator, only Terminator 2
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13:20:27 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
13:22:23 * oerjan realizes debugging in the inner loop may not exactly help performance
13:23:01 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
13:23:19 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
13:23:19 <EgoBot> Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist!
13:23:25 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
13:23:28 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
13:23:40 <fizzie> Ooh, now that !show + DCC thing is *fancy*.
13:23:59 <fizzie> fungot: Silly bot, you don't even know how to do *anything* with DCC.
13:24:00 <fungot> fizzie: the chip select which joystick port. this port, there are characters waiting in the table that starts at the sprite in the individual terms by performing the indicated memory location. when you turn it back on.
13:24:06 <oerjan> !slashes /#/1,2,3/test #
13:29:04 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss
13:30:44 <oerjan> ok that didn't really help any
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16:10:39 <AnMaster> is this BF loop balanced or not: [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+]
16:10:58 <AnMaster> it is also equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]]
16:11:32 <AnMaster> (this is because the inner loop is trivially provable to be infinite and will always run (also trivial to prove)
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16:14:20 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "current cell is same before and after loop"
16:14:49 <AnMaster> if it is you can do all sorts of optimisations in BF that you can't otherwise
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16:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, is [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+] balanced
16:16:40 <AnMaster> ais523, but it is equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]]!
16:16:49 <ais523> I meant, balanced square brackets
16:17:17 <ais523> and given that the outer loop never finishes
16:17:23 <ais523> it doesn't matter whether that loop's balanced or not
16:17:40 <ais523> p++; while(1); p--; leaves p the same
16:17:43 <ais523> p++; while(1); doesn't
16:17:45 <AnMaster> meh have to rewrite part of the calculator
16:18:37 <AnMaster> this in theory opens up lots of ways to optimise
16:18:45 <psygnisfive> isnt there some sort of compiler you could write for this? :P
16:19:05 <AnMaster> since you know that after that outer loop anything done in it will be void.
16:19:18 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I'm writing a BF compiler...
16:19:50 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well right now I'm writing on irc
16:19:57 <AnMaster> and writing code at the same time
16:20:09 <AnMaster> (single core multi tasking style)
16:20:20 <psygnisfive> im going to go shower, then run off. bye. :P
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17:00:23 <ehird> 00:52 bsmntbombdood: the 6 seconds of system time worries me
17:00:23 <ehird> 00:53 bsmntbombdood: i'm thinking i can do better
17:00:24 <ehird> coppro has joined (n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro)
17:00:26 <ehird> 00:59 pikhq: bsmntbombdood: Uh, you do realise that file access consists of system time, right?
17:00:28 <ehird> 00:59 bsmntbombdood: yes
17:00:30 <ehird> align the ssd bitch
17:00:59 <pikhq> ehird: He was feeding from /dev/urandom.
17:01:27 <ehird> pikhq: whaddya think about his grep being faster w/ HT?
17:01:48 <pikhq> Very odd, considering that grep is single-threaded.
17:02:15 <ais523> a multithreaded grep isn't theoretically impossible
17:02:16 <ehird> pikhq: no, he ran multiple greps
17:02:25 <ehird> and they went twice as fast
17:02:29 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but it *is* single-threaded right now.
17:02:31 <ais523> GregorR: GregorR-L: there?
17:02:36 <ehird> Somebody mailed me a copy of SICP. Now what would they mean by that...? —Guido van Rossum
17:02:40 <ehird> HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY?
17:02:42 <pikhq> ehird: I'd imagine that grep doesn't touch the cache much.
17:03:03 <pikhq> A better test would be, say, compilation.
17:03:16 <ehird> i want to give whoever sent gvr sicp $1m
17:03:34 <ais523> ehird: you don't have $1m
17:03:41 <ehird> ais523: creator of python
17:03:45 <pikhq> ais523: Guido van Rossum.
17:03:55 <ais523> it's ehird's answer that's more useful to me
17:03:56 <ehird> and Benevolent Functional-Programming-Ignorant Dictator for Life
17:04:08 <ehird> obviously some /prog/ger sent him SICP
17:04:09 <pikhq> ehird: He's better than some.
17:04:12 <ais523> well, python has lambda...
17:04:32 <ais523> that's enough to implement functional programming from first principles, if you really want to
17:04:36 <ehird> "hur hur tail calls = tail recursion and can always be replaced trivially with a while loop what do you mean tailcalling another function"
17:04:43 <ehird> "I am dropping reduce() from the base language because IT HURTS MY BRAIN"
17:04:50 <ehird> "I HAVE TO TURN IT INTO A FOR LOOP this is obviously reduce's f ault"
17:05:00 <ehird> "also don't use map() it gives you rabies"
17:05:06 <ehird> pikhq: reduce = fold, he removed it from py3k
17:05:12 <ehird> because he can only think imperatively, apparently
17:05:15 <pikhq> Even *Tcl* does tail call recursion these days.
17:05:23 <ais523> is the name reduce or fold more common?
17:05:25 <ehird> does it do general tail call optimization?
17:05:30 <ehird> that's more useful than tail recursion
17:05:31 <ais523> and Perl has an /operator/ for tail call optimisation
17:05:41 <ehird> ais523: reduce is what the scripting langs use, fold is what the academic languages use
17:05:44 <ais523> so you have to do it by hand, but it supports TCO too
17:05:49 <pikhq> (granted, you do it via "tailcall" instead of calling your function, but that's because they're just a tiny bit lazy)
17:05:50 <ehird> scheme has fold, fold-right in SRFI-1
17:05:53 <ehird> haskell is even more specific
17:05:57 <ehird> foldl, foldr, foldl1
17:06:03 <pikhq> ais523: They've got a proc to optimise it in Tcl 8.6.
17:06:24 <pikhq> In current Tcl, you just have to rely on the stack not growing too large.
17:06:24 <pikhq> Or implement it yourself.
17:06:24 * ais523 vaguely wonders if gcc-bf does tail-call optimisation
17:06:31 <ais523> it has a stack, after all
17:06:44 <ais523> my guess is it's probably capable of using gcc's built-in TCO
17:06:48 <pikhq> (Tcl is rather ridiculously modifiable, after all)
17:06:56 <ehird> anyway, what I'm saying is, some hero from /prog/ gave gvr sicp as a joke.
17:07:07 <pikhq> ehird: Which is totally awesome.
17:07:29 <ehird> I only hope they included the /prog/snake. Live.
17:08:04 <ais523> anyway: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090518204959409
17:08:07 <pikhq> Hmm. Funny thing is, the only Python programmer I know well is accused of programming like Python's a Lisp...
17:08:19 <ais523> I mention Alpha's terms of use on Groklaw, and then this happens
17:08:25 <ais523> and I have no idea whether or not it's coincidence
17:09:05 <ehird> haha, in the /r/programming/ comments on the link to the tweet people are trying to understand it :-)
17:09:22 <ehird> "I think it can be a reference to MIT's changes in curriculum rather than the discussion on tail recursion."
17:10:47 <ehird> it's totally a /prog/ger trolling him.
17:11:00 <ais523> SICP's a nice high-brow way to troll someone
17:11:07 <ais523> although I've never actually read it
17:11:22 <ais523> not now because I have unrelated exams
17:11:32 <ehird> ais523: if you can avoid testing the Scheme code on 5 different broken implementations to check it's portable, then yes
17:11:46 <ehird> I'd recommend MIT Scheme to go through with it, since it's a very traditionalist R5RS sort of implementation.
17:11:55 <ais523> what's the exact subject of the book?
17:12:02 <ehird> ais523: Achieving satori.
17:12:12 <ais523> I already know quite a bit of functional programming, although I'm self-taught in it
17:12:12 <ehird> But, uh, it's about the structure and interpretation of computer programs.
17:12:31 <ehird> It's about the fundamental interactions between interpreters, compilers, languages, metacircular things, homoiconicism, Scheme, ...
17:13:19 <ehird> ais523: But I'm not sure SICP can be called high-brow in the context of /prog/
17:13:56 <ehird> ais523: Wikipedia sums it up well:
17:14:04 <ehird> [[Using a dialect of the Lisp programming language known as Scheme, the book explains core computer science concepts, including abstraction, recursion, interpreters and metalinguistic abstraction, and teaches modular programming.
17:14:07 <ehird> The program also introduces a practical implementation of the register machine concept, defining and developing an assembler for such a construct, which is used as a virtual machine for the implementation of interpreters and compilers in the book, and as a testbed for illustrating the implementation and effect of modifications to the evaluation mechanism. Working Scheme systems based on the design described in this book are quite common student projects.
17:14:21 <ehird> It's a very academic sort of book.
17:15:03 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if it's like UNIX
17:15:15 <ais523> in that it is possible to make something better than UNIX, but you'll almost certainly fail unless you understand UNIX first
17:15:28 <ehird> I think SICP is pretty much perfect.
17:15:37 <ehird> mit's website is really pretty: http://mit.edu/
17:15:40 <ais523> I mean, in its descriptions of how to make an interpreter
17:15:53 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't really describe that
17:15:59 <ais523> ugh, that picture in the middle is really glaring on the eyes
17:16:01 <ehird> it describes the theory of interpreters
17:16:01 <ehird> it's just executable theory
17:16:10 <ehird> your brightness is set too high
17:16:22 <ais523> it handles black on white just fine, though
17:16:26 <ais523> and I have terminals set to grey on black
17:16:33 <ehird> i just like the logo and lowercase title, pretty much :P
17:16:34 <ais523> so seeing random white-on-black things overglares
17:16:48 <ehird> ais523: i said yesterday that I want an lcd whose off state is white, not black
17:16:56 <ehird> so that white would be soft on the eyes, not black
17:17:23 <ais523> there are non-LCD screen architectures which manage that, but unfortunately they're impractical atm due to pixels taking almost a second to change colour
17:17:31 <ais523> when that's fixed, though, you may have your wish
17:17:46 <ehird> ais523: but I like LCDs!
17:17:55 <ais523> what about them do you like?
17:17:56 <ehird> also, I wonder if OLED can do it?
17:18:02 <ehird> they're very sharp
17:18:07 <ehird> pixels are very defined, not blurry
17:18:21 <ehird> unlike, say, plasma displays, from what I know
17:18:47 <ehird> also, I like subpixel rendering
17:18:59 <ehird> I saw a picture where a bunch of text moved 1/3 of a pixel left each line
17:19:11 <ehird> by using subpixel rendering
17:19:43 <ehird> ais523: so what technologies are you talking about?
17:19:56 <ais523> those flexible paper-based ones
17:20:05 <ehird> ais523: those aren't bright enough
17:20:10 <ehird> and don't have good enough colour
17:20:35 <ais523> no, the colour's physically inside the piece of paper
17:20:49 <ehird> wait, which displays are we talking about here?
17:20:52 <ehird> Amazon Kindle-style?
17:21:06 <ehird> they use real paper?
17:21:08 <ais523> they're about good enough to use for something like the Kindle atm
17:21:19 <ais523> and I'm not quite sure if it's chemically the same as paper
17:21:24 <ais523> but it has similar physical properties
17:21:41 <ehird> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmwell.
17:21:53 <ehird> They use "organic" light.
17:22:05 <ehird> Light that's fairly traded and not using chemicals, I suppose :-P
17:22:22 <ais523> ehird: they use organic chemicals, rather than inorganic chemicals
17:22:53 <ais523> where organic = based around carbon chains
17:23:22 <ehird> The Optimus Maximus keyboard developed by the Art. Lebedev Studio and released early 2008 uses 113 48×48-pixel OLEDs (10.1×10.1 mm) for its keys.
17:23:32 <ehird> too bad it's a shit keyboard
17:23:44 <ais523> it seems engineered to be as expensive as possible
17:23:46 <ais523> rather than actually useful
17:23:48 <ehird> who looks at their keys, anyway?
17:24:04 <ais523> I do on occasion to hit the home row
17:24:13 <ais523> it's faster than feeling for it if I took my hands off the keyboard for any reason
17:24:18 <ehird> my style is too weird for things like home rows :-)
17:24:19 <ais523> and I am now, because you got me thinking about it...
17:24:27 <ehird> ais523: on a similar note, you're breathing
17:24:31 <ais523> but my fingers need to start somewhere
17:24:42 <ais523> ehird: blinking doesn't work on me, although the breathing thing does
17:25:06 <ehird> ais523: also, your heart is beating.
17:25:17 <ais523> ehird: I'm incapable of making my heart beat manually
17:25:25 <ehird> well that's your problem!
17:25:25 <ais523> so it'll just continue on auto, as always
17:27:57 <ais523> ehird: do you have your heart on manual?
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17:28:09 <ehird> ais523: no, I'm fairly sure that would be an emergency
17:28:16 <ehird> can _anyone_ do that?
17:28:20 <ais523> so why is it a problem if I don't?
17:28:34 <ehird> because I told you it's beating so it's stopped now!
17:28:36 <ais523> and although it's not quite on manual, some people have learnt to be able to control the speed with mental effort
17:28:38 <ehird> if it's still beating, well, quantum immortality.
17:29:02 <ais523> including stopping it for a few seconds
17:29:12 <ehird> that's one skill I'm happy not to have
17:29:20 <ais523> I'm not sure how useful that is, but presumably there's some reason they learnt it
17:29:24 <ais523> that's more important than party tricks
17:32:59 <ais523> ehird: everyone has some voluntary control over their blood flow
17:33:12 <ehird> I don't that I'm aware of
17:33:16 <ais523> because the heart doesn't push hard enough in order to get the blood all the way back up your legs
17:33:33 <ais523> therefore, you have to keep moving your legs or feet (although only a few centimeters every few minutes is enough)
17:33:37 <ais523> to stop all the blood getting stuck there
17:33:46 <ais523> people occasionally faint from standing too still as a result
17:34:08 <ehird> ais523: that's not what I'd call voluntary
17:34:10 <ehird> that's a side-effect
17:34:25 <ehird> it's sort of like saying putting your head in a paper bag is a way to voluntarily stop breathing
17:35:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> Somebody mailed me a copy of SICP. Now what would they mean by that...? —Guido van Rossum
17:35:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY?
17:37:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: reduce is what the scripting langs use, fold is what the academic languages use <-- which category do you put erlang in.
17:37:55 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know erlang
17:37:59 <ais523> AnMaster: does it use reduce or fold?
17:38:07 <ais523> also, I suspect it counts as academic, given its history
17:38:12 <ais523> although company-academic, not university-academic
17:38:59 <ehird> ais523: yes, it's "company research"
17:39:08 <ehird> rather than "university department of language research"
17:40:34 <ais523> I think we're all agreeing, that's nice to see
17:40:50 <AnMaster> heh I found a bug in this wireless telephone.
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17:41:14 <AnMaster> After you held down the "end call" button for 10 seconds it goes into a "mode" where every button you press cause the screen backlighting to flicker and an odd short noise to be emitted. Loudly.
17:41:14 <ehird> ais523: technically I think that means we died and went to heaven
17:41:24 <AnMaster> Like a mix between beep and static noise
17:41:35 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, that's probably a feature to stop you redialing after an argument, or something. I bet a marketroid came up with it. :-P
17:41:38 <AnMaster> only way to make it exit the mode is take out the batteries and reinsert them
17:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, "end call" not "begin call"
17:42:08 <ais523> ehird: it does sound like the definition of some features I've heard, but they wouldn't do it like that
17:42:19 <AnMaster> I can't see it being a "feature"...
17:42:22 <ehird> 17:40 Ami: Antibiotic culture charged with failure to comply with the anticivic reportioning and reclamation decrees.
17:42:23 <ehird> 17:41 Ami: Jevanic polysyndicates post-charged for post-modern pseudosymbolism and monoreference.
17:42:24 <ehird> 17:41 Ami: Citizens, reminder. Inaction is conspiracy. Report counterbehaviour to your nearest stabilization delegate or workforce intake hub for full ration reward.
17:42:27 <ehird> ↑ this is basically what Sine is like all the time. or rather not, but it feels like it sometimes
17:42:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I was joking
17:42:32 <ais523> many cars, for instance, have a feature that if you hold down the lock button on the keys for long enough it sets the alarm off as loud as it can and there's no way to stop it for several minutes
17:42:37 <ais523> so you can use your car as a sort of rape alarm
17:42:42 <ais523> which is a bit ridiculous
17:42:50 <ehird> three words I never thought I'd see consecutively
17:43:18 <ais523> ehird: I'm trying to figure out what Ami is saying there, but failing
17:43:33 <ehird> ais523: Ami is a bot, although I think those lines are either from a preset list, or entered manually by an operator
17:43:41 <ehird> instead of, say, a markov chain
17:43:42 <ais523> although the third line reminds me a bit of Paranoia XP
17:43:46 <ehird> that's the general
17:43:55 <ehird> 16:59 Cyclic bulletin file is missing.
17:43:55 <ehird> 16:59 Civic presence at 11 opt-ins and 16 opt-outs on 3 zoning enforcercement spars.
17:43:56 <ehird> 16:59 1 stabilization delegate(s) in position.
17:43:58 <ehird> 16:59 19 biotic cultures
17:44:01 <ehird> 16:59 Controlling therapy for 5 civic opt-ins with 1 zoning enforcement spars.
17:44:02 <ehird> 16:59 Local civic biomass: 5 Max: 9
17:44:04 <ehird> 16:59 Civic mass: 27 Max: 30
17:44:06 <ehird> from the connection process
17:44:13 <ais523> it could be a computer game, I suppose
17:44:16 <ais523> it isn't, but it could be
17:44:18 <ehird> although most of the time Ami just hands out awards for having been the last person to said something for ages
17:44:21 <AnMaster> I found a test mode on a synth recently. It displayed TEST on the LCD. Then it played all tones, did a stepless "gliding" of a pure tone from ~40 Hz to well out of hearing range. After that it tested all LED segments on the display one by one. Then it shut down.
17:44:35 <AnMaster> how to trigger it: Hold the setting button down while you powered it on
17:44:48 <ehird> i've always wanted a speaker that I could play tunes out of the range of hearing on
17:45:01 <ehird> at least they couldn't be discordant
17:45:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? I tested range with a microphone
17:45:26 <AnMaster> and it registered tones long after I didn't hear anything
17:48:02 <ehird> * TaskManager will be replaced by TaskFreak!, dotProject and Trac
17:48:03 <ehird> * DocManager will be replaced by MediaWiki and Trac (wiki).
17:48:05 <ehird> * Discussion Forums will be replaced by phpBB.
17:48:07 <ehird> * Diary and Notes will be replaced by WordPress.
17:48:11 <ehird> AnMaster: well, SF are removing the awful forums, but replacing them with ... phpBB.
17:48:22 <ehird> they moved into 2000!
17:48:31 <ais523> phpBB is excellent feature-wise, but truly awful code-wise
17:48:42 <AnMaster> they will remove the bug tracker for any projects using it?
17:48:45 <ehird> ais523: the features are mostly useless bloat
17:48:46 <AnMaster> or is taskmanager something else
17:48:53 <ehird> AnMaster: "tickets"
17:48:55 <ehird> so bug tracker will disappear
17:49:04 <ais523> and tbh, just replacing the whole thing with trac would probably be an improvement
17:49:08 <AnMaster> ehird, and any projects using it? What will happen then
17:49:09 <ais523> even though it doesn't have a forum
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17:49:26 <ehird> ais523: moving to trac being an improvement is a sign of a truly awful situation :)
17:49:47 <ais523> trac isn't bad, it's just bland
17:49:55 <ais523> it's good enough, but not much better
17:50:03 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't know that
17:50:03 <ehird> I dunno, I'm not a fan of its UI and general concept-y stuff.
17:50:07 <ehird> It's very mediocre.
17:50:12 <ais523> ehird: mediocre is a good word
17:50:19 <ais523> but then, I don't consider mediocre to be bad
17:50:22 <ehird> ais523: it's perfectly cromulent
17:50:44 <ehird> ais523: and if you think that's not actually a real real word, wiktionary lists it under "English": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cromulent
17:51:01 <ais523> cromulent is a real word
17:51:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Cromulent.
17:51:17 <AnMaster> aspell doesn't think it exists. Must be pretty rare
17:51:26 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a neologism, but one that caught on
17:51:26 <ehird> Wiktionary confirms it.
17:51:30 <ehird> It's like Netcraft
17:51:30 <ais523> it means roughly "makes sense"
17:51:38 <ehird> Principal Skinner: He's embiggened that role with his cromulent performance.
17:51:40 <ais523> ehird: that Wiktionary article has a big "do not trust this" box at the top
17:51:41 <ehird> ais523: nope, it means "fine"
17:51:51 <ehird> also, I'm selectively blind.
17:51:54 <ais523> ehird: well, as a neologism, I wouldn't expect it to have a consistent meaning
17:52:05 <ehird> ais523: in the same episode that coined it?
17:52:10 <ehird> "it's a perfectly fine word" works too
17:52:18 <ais523> well, as in "legitimate"
17:52:30 <ehird> perfectly legitimate performance?
17:52:34 <ehird> that doesn't really imply "good"
17:52:39 <ais523> I suppose you could translate "cromulent" to "there's nothing wrong with it"
17:52:46 <ais523> the implication to me is not "good", but "acceptable"
17:52:56 <ehird> I think it's like a weak "good"
17:53:03 <ehird> if you embiggen a role, obviously you did quite well
17:53:18 <ehird> btw, reality check: we're arguing about the definition of a word coined on The Simpsons
17:56:05 <ehird> Deewiant: link to that list of video cards ordered by awesome?
17:57:04 <ehird> Deewiant: it lists the GeForce 9800GTX+ as below the 4770, but it's actually competitive-and-sometimes-better with the 4850
17:57:06 <Deewiant> The links that say "nopeusjärjestys" ("awesome order") are the ones you want
17:57:27 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, they're in the same category
17:57:33 <Deewiant> So they're clearly competitive
17:57:43 <ehird> but the 4770 is a lot worse than both the 4850 and the 9800GTX+ from what I've seen
17:57:52 <Deewiant> The ???? means he doesn't know whether the 4770 is better or worse than the 4850
17:58:05 <ehird> Deewiant: wait, does it really translate as awesome order?
17:58:08 <Deewiant> And the space between 4770 and 9800 means he thinks the 9800 is a bit worse
17:58:24 <ehird> 17:58 Deewiant: And the space between 4770 and 9800 means he thinks the 9800 is a bit worse ← ati fan? :p
17:58:45 <Deewiant> ehird: ------ is the only "true" separator
17:58:52 <Deewiant> Everything else is kinda variable
17:58:56 <ais523> Deewiant: no, wrong number of -s
17:59:03 <ais523> or -- for a sig separator
17:59:24 <ais523> they should have used 4
18:00:29 <ehird> Deewiant: It lists the 9800 GTX+ one category below the 8800 GTX. What I've read suggests the opposite.
18:00:42 <ais523> Deewiant: because 4 is standard!
18:01:20 <Deewiant> ehird: The list is mostly about the hardware used
18:01:23 <pikhq> The Alex Smith standard.
18:01:46 <Deewiant> I.e. if one has more MHz than another but is otherwise identical it'll be higher, regardless of what tests say
18:01:53 <ehird> Deewiant: ... but the 9800 GTX+ is a G92 and the 8800 GTX is a G90.
18:01:56 <Deewiant> (Although in that case I'd be surprised if tests said it should be the other way)
18:02:00 <ehird> One came out last year, the other in late 2006.
18:02:09 <ehird> I'm incredibly surprised that it would be considered better by any measure.
18:03:22 <Deewiant> It seems that the 8800 GTX has 86.4 GB/s bandwidth whereas the 9800 GTX+ has 70.4
18:03:43 <Deewiant> Other than that, the latter is indeed advertised as better.
18:04:18 <Deewiant> Based on a quick browse of nvidia.com, anyway
18:04:21 <ais523> I'm amused that people can get so involved in high-ending their computers
18:04:33 <ehird> ais523: this is mid-range
18:04:33 <ais523> the graphics card on here's an Intel 915
18:04:39 <ais523> which isn't even powerful enough to run Vista, really
18:04:46 <ais523> and which I suspect is obsolete nowadays
18:04:49 <ehird> and I want to play certain games, certain games that a lesser card would give me bad FPS on; I have researched this :-P
18:05:16 <ehird> but god I hate the naming systems
18:05:29 <ehird> 9800 GTX+ < 8800 GTX, yes, a higher number and a + means it's worse!
18:05:31 <ais523> agreed, graphics card naming is almost impossible to fathom
18:05:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders if AnMaster even has a 3D graphics card
18:05:56 <ehird> 4770? that's better than the 4830! why? because of the technology used inside, not the actual market, duh!
18:06:02 <ehird> ais523: he has some GeForce 7780 or something
18:06:04 <Deewiant> Both ATI and nVidia have a 9600 GT, at least
18:06:11 <ehird> Deewiant: they do?
18:06:16 <Deewiant> ATI's is some two-three years old
18:06:29 <Deewiant> Actually, older than that, I think
18:06:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:06:31 <pikhq> ais523: And CPU naming is getting crazy, too.
18:06:38 <pikhq> I blame AMD for purchasing ATi.
18:06:39 <ais523> pikhq: well, it used to work on IC names
18:06:44 <ehird> now, if 8800 is better than 9800, you'd expect 7600 to be even better right?
18:06:45 <ehird> noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
18:06:46 <ais523> which also don't make a whole lot of sense, normally
18:06:54 <ais523> as they were originally designed just to be unique, not ordered
18:07:35 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm googling, everyone's saying the 8800 GTX is good but not as good as the 9800 GTX, let alone the 9800 GTX+
18:07:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> now, if 8800 is better than 9800, you'd expect 7600 to be even better right? <-- In that case my old GeForce 3 Ti 200 would be AWESOME
18:07:49 <AnMaster> sadly it is no longer functional
18:07:52 <ehird> AnMaster: shit man, Voodoo cards!
18:07:54 <AnMaster> which is why I changed to this card I have
18:08:06 <ehird> anyone remember games installing an extra menu item for Glide?
18:08:30 <AnMaster> ehird, Glide? I remember seeing something about Glide in mupen64... but that is all
18:08:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Glide is the 3dfx Voodoo cards' hardware-based implementation of some OpenGL calls
18:09:31 <ais523> theory: someone should write a generic graphics card
18:09:41 <ais523> which automatically optimises graphicsy stuff
18:09:53 <ais523> so you can use pure-software implementations of the renderer, and it runs really fast anyway
18:09:59 <ais523> that way it's future-proof to standards improvements
18:10:01 <ehird> ais523: err, graphics cards ARE generic
18:10:08 <ais523> ehird: I mean, even more than that
18:10:10 <ehird> there's a reason they're called -PUs
18:12:09 <ehird> Deewiant: http://i7.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_9800_GTX_Plus_Amp_Edition/images/crysis_1920_1200.gif
18:12:14 <ehird> 9800 GTX+ is 22.6 FPS
18:12:35 <ehird> Hey, it has about 200MB more memory with which to be at the same FPS, though.
18:13:22 <ais523> hmm... does crysis automatically try to run at the fastest FPS possible?
18:13:35 <ais523> DNA Maze runs at 20 FPS, for instance, even if the hardware is capable of more
18:13:48 <ais523> which it is, considering how simple the graphics are
18:14:41 <Deewiant> Most games don't have FPS limiters.
18:15:17 <ais523> well, there's nothing animated in DNA Maze
18:15:18 <pikhq> Personally, I'm in favor of limiting FPS to the monitor's refresh rate.
18:15:28 <pikhq> Updating in the middle of a refresh just looks like shit.
18:15:30 <ais523> nothing changes faster than once every 5ms
18:15:37 <Deewiant> pikhq: Which means what, exactly, on LCDs
18:15:58 <pikhq> Deewiant: LCDs still have a 'refresh rate'.
18:15:59 <ais523> so limiting to 20 FPS means that updates can happen exactly when they need to
18:16:02 <ais523> rather than waiting until the next frame
18:16:09 <pikhq> They can only update the LCD so often.
18:16:48 * pikhq notes that FPS might be a better unit than hertz for this purpose, but alas, LCDs themselves are still statted in Hz refresh rate.
18:17:49 <Deewiant> That's 60 Hz for just about all LCDs, isn't it
18:18:33 <pikhq> Though that is the norm.
18:18:39 <oerjan> 08:10:39 <AnMaster> is this BF loop balanced or not: [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+]
18:18:46 <oerjan> 08:10:58 <AnMaster> it is also equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]]
18:19:16 <oerjan> i'd say the first is clearly balanced, and the second is then essentially balanced
18:19:45 <oerjan> the second could be phrased as: a loop that never finishes is balanced for most purposes
18:20:19 <ais523> it's balanced for the purpose of optimising, anyway
18:20:31 <oerjan> the first is syntactically balanced
18:20:31 <ais523> if you get past the loop, the tape pointer didn't move
18:20:53 <oerjan> the second is logically balanced if you define that as "ends up in the same place _if_ it finishes"
18:21:05 <ais523> which is a good definition
18:22:11 <pikhq> Especially for optimisation purposes.
18:22:14 <oerjan> btw the second relies on cell size being even :D
18:22:46 <oerjan> there is nothing that says every bf variant _needs_ to use a power of 2 >:)
18:23:10 <ais523> presumably this one does, though
18:25:29 <oerjan> i vaguely recall redcode uses a prime, at least for memory size, maybe FukYourBrane could use the same
18:26:11 <ais523> oerjan: FukYorBrane has a prime number of possibilities for each tape element, I think
18:26:22 <ais523> whereas BF Joust uses 256, partially because it needs to be even
18:26:33 <oerjan> (as i recall, because this prevents you avoiding your own code just by placement with a fixed step scan)
18:26:54 <ais523> wait, no, redcode has a power of 2 for memory size
18:27:07 <ais523> it's round but not a power of 2
18:27:59 <oerjan> if it were a multiple of 256, say, you could just move a little bit off your code, and then move right 256, kill & destroy, repeat
18:28:34 <oerjan> and you would only hit enemies
18:28:44 <ais523> oerjan: that's a common tactic
18:28:47 <ais523> but using small numbers like 4
18:28:51 <ais523> rather than large numbers like 256
18:28:57 <ais523> 256 is likely to miss your enemies too
18:29:01 <oerjan> yeah i just realized that
18:29:06 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, have you noticed google maps work without js?
18:29:16 <AnMaster> not sure if you were here when it was discussed
18:29:36 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's balanced for the purpose of optimising, anyway <-- not exactly. It is unbalanced for some optimisations
18:29:54 <AnMaster> some of those working inside the loop
18:30:02 <ehird> 18:13 ais523: hmm... does crysis automatically try to run at the fastest FPS possible?
18:30:13 <ehird> but most games have vsync (= limit to my LCD's fps)
18:30:56 <pikhq> oerjan: The second doesn't rely on cell size being even, assuming cells wrap.
18:30:59 <oerjan> ok maybe they decided that was fun and made it a reason for _not_ using a prime
18:31:05 <pikhq> It relies on cell size being *greater than 2*.
18:31:14 <pikhq> Erm. Greater than 3.
18:31:25 <oerjan> pikhq: by cell size i mean number of possible values, not bits
18:31:43 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:31:47 <oerjan> if it's odd and wrapping, then that _will_ eventually reach 0 again
18:32:03 <asiekierka> did anyone write their own BF Joust stuff
18:32:03 <pikhq> oerjan: [>++>++<<]
18:32:06 <AnMaster> <oerjan> btw the second relies on cell size being even :D <-- where does it do that?
18:32:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, index_diff = unchanged
18:32:28 <pikhq> It doesn't do anything to the cell that's being tested.
18:33:14 <pikhq> The cell values needs to not be 3 for it to run.
18:33:17 -!- Corun has joined.
18:33:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:33:22 <oerjan> thought it did like [++>++<]
18:33:31 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:33:31 <ehird> "8800 GTX XXX Edition"
18:33:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:33:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that one I can't yet detect as infinite, haven't implemented that type of optimisation of it yet.
18:33:58 * oerjan swats some glory -----###
18:34:04 <ehird> XCorp 8800 GTX XXXXX Xdition
18:34:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, I see some code for it in esotope-bfc, but it messes up my head trying to work it out
18:35:00 <ehird> it's just greatest common divisor
18:35:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually that one _isn't_ infinite for all initial values, regardless
18:35:15 <ehird> Everyone should know GCD
18:35:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/6pRr7k45.html
18:35:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have context: I know the index cell is a constant already
18:35:50 <AnMaster> the constant propagation pass told me
18:36:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I know how gcd is defined
18:37:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to remove the stuff after the infinite loop above.
18:37:50 <asiekierka> You know, I wnnt to make a Boolf**k machine
18:38:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: that paste also requires you to know the Euclidean algorithm with coefficients
18:38:36 <oerjan> (for let u * m + v * w = gcd(m,w))
18:38:53 <oerjan> *extended Euclidean algorithm
18:39:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm not familiar with "extended gcd"
18:39:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not the gcd that is extended
18:39:43 <oerjan> it's the algorithm for finding it that is extended so you get the other coefficients in that equation
18:40:29 <oerjan> which is very useful for solving linear integer equations
18:40:55 * ehird compares the 8800 Ultra w/ the 9800 GTX+
18:41:30 <pikhq> asiekierka: Serial line.
18:41:36 <pikhq> Assuming it's on an FPGA.
18:41:51 <ehird> The worst thing about picking a graphics card is that gamers don't know the meaning of grammar.
18:41:57 <ehird> "9800GTX+ is faster than 8800 Ultra"←kay
18:42:18 <ehird> AnMaster: that was a separate thing
18:42:23 <asiekierka> pikhq: It's using 7400 series and the like
18:42:27 <ehird> two different lines
18:42:30 <AnMaster> ehird, you might want to add some "the" though
18:42:47 <asiekierka> possibly two buttons to do < and > manually
18:42:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:43:31 <pikhq> asiekierka: I suggest a bank of 8 toggle switches.
18:43:56 <pikhq> Oh, and a button to enter it in.
18:44:04 <pikhq> Output via 8 LEDs.
18:44:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: btw that is the basis for several of the algorithms in [[Brainfuck constants]] on the wiki
18:44:41 <ehird> A char can be any size > 8 bits, pikhq.
18:44:48 <ehird> asiekierka: Boolfuck outputs in bytes.
18:45:07 <ehird> Outputs the bit under the pointer to the output stream. The bits get output in little-endian order, the same order in which they would be input. If the total number of bits output is not a multiple of eight at the end of the program, the last character of output gets padded with zeros on the more significant end. If the end-of-file character has been input, outputs a zero to the bit under the pointer.
18:45:08 <pikhq> It just builds those bytes up 8 at a time.
18:45:19 <oerjan> (for finding multiplicative inverses mod 256)
18:45:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, I see the algorithm on wikipedia for it. I understand it. But I don't understand why it is useful :/
18:47:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: as i said, it's useful for finding the integer solutions to linear equations
18:47:49 <asiekierka> I am implementing a variation of BF operating on bits, also in I/O
18:48:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: or do you mean useful for brainfuck?
18:48:44 <asiekierka> is there anything better (or easier) to implement
18:49:26 <oerjan> see, if you have something like [-]+++[---->++++++<]
18:50:05 <pikhq> asiekierka: As in more useful?
18:50:11 <pikhq> As in easier? OISC.
18:50:24 <asiekierka> pikhq: But both of these have been done!
18:50:46 <pikhq> As in cooler? Malbolge.
18:51:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, How does it help for the compiler wanting to find if loop is finite or infinite.. That is the bit I don't understand.
18:51:27 <asiekierka> pikhq: I don't have a house big enough to store wirewrapped 7400 series chips for Malbolge!
18:51:34 <oerjan> then that is essentially solving the problem: is there a y such that 3+4*y = 256*k ?
18:52:06 <pikhq> Fine, then. Create your own architecture.
18:52:12 <pikhq> Port a C compiler to it.
18:52:16 <oerjan> and if so, the result is 5* the smallest such y
18:52:27 <ehird> meh, seems like my i7 965 XE and the 9800 GTX+ will suck up >430W at load, so I need a diff power supply
18:52:37 <asiekierka> pikhq: I don't have a year to waste (See: BMOW)
18:52:38 <pikhq> If you're feeling especially motivated, port Minix to it.
18:52:54 <asiekierka> I don't have time, either (See: Magic-1)
18:52:56 <pikhq> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
18:53:04 <asiekierka> I also don't want something very hard (See: both)
18:53:12 <pikhq> asiekierka: Be hard-core!
18:53:21 <oerjan> <oerjan> see, if you have something like [-]+++[---->++++++<]
18:53:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm. The fact that I'm representing - as "add 255" makes this slightly complex I think...
18:53:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Why? All that buys me is ECC (= slower ram), another $500 out of my pocket, having to buy a server motherboard, and lameness.
18:53:33 <asiekierka> I'm entirely sure you can write a C compiler for OISC
18:53:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Also, I doubt it'll suck up LESS watts...
18:54:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Make that another $2,000 out of my pocket vs an i7.
18:54:07 <ehird> And even more wattage.
18:54:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh. well in principle multiples of 256 don't matter (you could do most of this with (mod 256) arithmetic)
18:54:11 <ehird> And even more on the mobo.
18:54:15 <pikhq> asiekierka: Oh, I'm sure you could.
18:54:22 <pikhq> Maybe even get LLVM to target it.
18:54:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: no, not only a 9800
18:54:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, it makes stuff easier elsewhere to not have any "add -1" or similar. Since erlang is all bignum it is a pain to make sure the range of merged nodes have the proper value if negative. Much easier if the code only needs to deal with positive values.
18:55:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: a 9800GTX+, which is competitive-with-and-sometimes-better than a Radeon HD 4850
18:55:24 <ehird> 9800GTX+ >>>>>>> 9800GTX >>>> 9800GT
18:55:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: yes. Yes it is.
18:55:33 <ehird> So's the 4870 and it still screams.
18:55:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh. well adding 255 might actually fit this equation slightly better
18:55:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: And I want something I can cool passively with the Accelero S1 Rev2.
18:56:05 <oerjan> since you then only have a few variables to worry about being negative
18:56:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Besides, the 9800GTX+ manages Crysis @ 1920x1080 at 41fps (with some settings bumped up, IIRC)
18:56:23 <ehird> So it's not exactly crappy.
18:56:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> 9800GTX+ >>>>>>> 9800GTX >>>> 9800GT <-- can be simplified into a + But that is a dead store. So generated code could be int main(void) { return 0; }
18:56:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: wait, did i say +4? i meant -4
18:56:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: An incredibly GPU-intensive game.
18:56:58 <ehird> Even the 4870X2 (two 4870s stuck together) can't max out all of the settings to the very max and still be playable at 1920x1080.
18:56:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: but you could make that 4*255*y to fit your framework perfectly
18:57:14 <ehird> maybe GTX 295 in 3xSLI could do it
18:57:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: did you literally run or just joking?
18:57:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm... only thing that can be negative is offset, and mov nodes (< is {mov, -1} basically)
18:57:50 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: did you literally run or just joking? <-- ehird's line? Joking.
18:58:19 <oerjan> i assume so, unless you have a very portable irc client
18:58:30 <oerjan> which people might, nowadays
18:58:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: So I don't know what you meant by the 9800GTX+ not being good.
18:58:53 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_&mID=101.
18:59:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Dude, there aren't many graphics cards much newer than it.
18:59:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Heck, the i7 came out last year!
18:59:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: The i7 came out *18 months ago*
18:59:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: so you are not having anything negative, which means you do all loop checks by checking if things are divisible by 256, i assume
18:59:47 <ehird> And newer != better.
19:00:00 <ehird> The 9800GTX+ is a powerful card, and the most powerful you can cool with the S1 Rev.2 apart from a 4870.
19:00:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that is not a big cooler
19:00:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_&mID=105 this is a big cooler
19:00:29 <ehird> (in ctx: http://www.ngohq.com/attachments/news/769d1198274397-arctic-cooling-launches-accelero-s1-rev-2-100_1050.jpg)
19:00:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have a cleanup pass that runs after all the node merging passes which adjusts out of range values
19:00:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: so 3 + (4*255)*y = 256*k fits what you would do with [-]+++[---->++++++<]
19:00:43 <AnMaster> optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, val = Val } = H|T], Result)
19:00:43 <AnMaster> optimise(T, [H#bfn{val = Val rem 256 } |Result]);
19:00:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: For silence. Plus, I don't really need more performance than the 9800GTX+. Barely anyone except HARDKOR LEET GAMERZ do.
19:01:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh well. anyway that just becomes an additive constant to k, which we don't care about
19:01:03 <AnMaster> and irc client messed up indention
19:01:03 <ehird> So since I _can_ cool it passively...
19:01:20 <asiekierka> I want to make a 16-command no-parameter set
19:01:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: they use PS3 clusters ;-)
19:01:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: btw of course that equation has no integer solution
19:01:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, and you lost me. Best way is to try to replicate what esotope-bfc did here. Since it is in python it also has bignums iirc.
19:02:19 <AnMaster> not sure if it uses -1 or +255 though
19:02:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: was that paste from esotope-bfc?
19:02:24 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know anything about mathematics? :)
19:02:32 <pikhq> I suggest addition to an address, subtraction from an address, and conditional jumping.
19:02:43 <pikhq> Only marginally easier than Brainfuck!
19:02:55 <AnMaster> ehird, some, but the Swedish school system sucks. Ending high school without knowing about linear algebra
19:03:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Can't suck as much as the UK system.
19:03:20 <ehird> But tbh, I'm rather maths-retarded myself; mostly learned from WP.
19:03:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd say it is equally bad
19:03:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: One can finish university without knowing about linear algebra.
19:03:31 <asiekierka> Well, I currently have NOP, NOP, <, >, +, -, M->A, A->M
19:03:52 * oerjan goes back to web browsing
19:04:05 <ehird> pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length?
19:04:07 <ehird> that is, nop is 00 00
19:04:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends on what you study. Lawyer? Certainly. CS? No.
19:04:11 <ehird> to pad out for the argument, say
19:04:18 <ehird> AnMaster: CS involves linear algebra?
19:04:24 <AnMaster> ehird, easier for you to learn from WP. It is your native language.
19:04:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Coulda fooled me
19:04:35 <ehird> also, isn't there a wikipedia in Swedish?
19:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, at least CS here has linear algebra
19:04:43 <pikhq> ehird: It is mandatory for most CS degrees.
19:04:50 <ehird> I guess I'm just cynical
19:04:54 <ehird> since there are a lot of idiots doing CS
19:04:55 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) very incomplete 2) should be called "Simple Swedish"
19:05:07 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length?
19:05:07 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: that is, nop is 00 00
19:05:58 <AnMaster> assuming time is UTC I can't find it
19:06:07 <ehird> pikhq: AnMaster: One can finish university without knowing about linear algebra.
19:06:07 <ehird> 19:03 asiekierka: Well, I currently have NOP, NOP, <, >, +, -, M->A, A->M
19:06:08 <ehird> 19:03 oerjan goes back to web browsing
19:06:10 <ehird> 19:04 asiekierka: and SKP - Skip the next command
19:06:12 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length?
19:06:15 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: that is, nop is 00 00
19:06:17 <ehird> 19:04 AnMaster: pikhq, depends on what you study. Lawyer? Certainly. CS? No.
19:06:19 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: to pad out for the argument, say
19:06:23 <ehird> A few fucking seconds ago!
19:06:54 <ehird> what are the addresses of eax,etc on x86? are they constant?
19:07:03 <asiekierka> SNZ (Skip if A != 0), SKZ (Skip if A = 0), JMP (to set address), SKP (just skip), SAH (A->high byte of addr), SAL (A->low byte of addr)
19:07:20 <ehird> AnMaster: addresses of eax, etc.
19:07:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a register. You can't have a pointer to a register
19:07:23 <ehird> do you know what etc. means?
19:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: not neccessarily
19:07:36 <asiekierka> Add A to cell and Subtract A from cell
19:07:37 <ehird> you could have a ptr-to-register just fine
19:07:42 <AnMaster> ehird, memory mapped registers yeah
19:07:42 <ehird> by reserving the first N bytes of memory-space
19:07:48 <AnMaster> but iirc x86 doesn't have that
19:08:00 <ehird> it seems like a logical design decision
19:08:00 <AnMaster> ehird, also that would mess up NULL pointers badly
19:08:03 <ehird> instead of having 3 instructions
19:08:05 <ehird> constant, memory and register
19:08:07 <AnMaster> well it could work with non-zero null
19:08:17 <ehird> AnMaster: last N bytes, then
19:08:35 <AnMaster> ehird, of the possible address space, not real memory installed right?
19:08:53 <AnMaster> could work. But iirc x86 doesn't do it like that
19:09:07 <asiekierka> So the opcodes are NOP, MVL, MVR, ADM, SBM, PLA, PHA, SNZ, SKZ, JMP, SKP, SAH, SAL, ADA, SBA
19:10:01 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, all opcodes being two bytes wouldn't work
19:10:07 <ehird> you need it to be >machine word
19:10:10 <asiekierka> and yes, setting an address is just setting them in 2 cells and then you can just do PLA, SAL, MVR, PLA, SAH, if you store low-high
19:11:18 <asiekierka> so to set a cell to 3 you do ADM ADM ADM
19:11:45 <asiekierka> to clear the cell you do (assuming $0000 is command 1, $0001 is command 2...)
19:12:03 <ehird> kay, instruction = 5 bytes
19:12:18 <ehird> pikhq: think I should align at a boundary more than "byte"? :P
19:13:07 <ehird> pikhq: per instruction‽‽‽‽
19:13:11 <ehird> hmm, i'd rather 3 bytes tbh...
19:13:25 <ehird> pikhq: any idea how to do a load-word-into-X when I can only pass a pointer?
19:13:29 * pikhq creates an architecture with 32-bit aligned instructions.
19:13:49 <ehird> a nop is 00 XXXX, where the XXXX is just ignored
19:13:55 <ehird> LOAD looks at the next instruction
19:13:59 <ehird> LOAD ptr; NOP value;
19:14:17 <ehird> pikhq: discuss my evility
19:14:19 <AnMaster> ehird, x86 has very varying instruction size
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19:14:32 <ehird> I'm trying to make the cpu not have to guess about it
19:14:35 <ehird> i'm designing an instruction set
19:14:42 <ehird> where all instructions are exactly the same length
19:14:47 <ehird> but that's OP XXXX
19:14:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you could do all loads from memory :D
19:14:52 <ehird> and that's just enough to store one pointer
19:14:59 <ehird> and you need to load _something_ somehow
19:15:05 <ehird> LOAD ptr; NOP value
19:15:10 <ehird> since it has to be NOP XXXX
19:15:14 <ehird> the XXXX can just be ignored
19:15:16 <ehird> and LOAD can look at it
19:15:24 <ehird> that's not interesting, that's boring and slow
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19:16:01 <ehird> otoh, LOAD looking at the next instruction is Evil(TM)
19:16:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what about "load and skip next instruction"?
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19:16:30 <pikhq> ehird: As is using NOP for storage. :)
19:16:33 <AnMaster> then have the next instruction as an operand
19:16:40 <ehird> AnMaster: that's just variable instruction size
19:16:47 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. But with a different name
19:16:56 <ehird> variable instruction size is so inelegant :P
19:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, are there any major architectures that use fixed size? Possibly Itanium I guess...
19:17:35 <ehird> keyword being Very Long instruction word
19:17:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: RISC architectures.
19:17:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, so what about the load one there
19:17:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, loading a constant into a register.
19:18:03 <AnMaster> or referencing a constant memory cell
19:18:13 <ehird> i guess they just have OP XXXX YYYY and ignore Y when it isn't applicable
19:18:16 <AnMaster> you need it larger than word size
19:18:30 <AnMaster> ehird, that is variable instruction size basically
19:18:37 <ehird> the instructions are all the same length
19:18:41 <ehird> just parameters are often ignored
19:18:55 <ehird> more ugly than variable length
19:18:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you mean HUGE instruction?
19:19:08 <ehird> two words plus a byte
19:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a horribly uneven size to load
19:19:36 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, are you planning to implement some hardware with this?
19:19:44 <ehird> prolly not FPGA if I do
19:19:47 <ehird> that's so cheating
19:20:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it's too high-level ;)
19:20:39 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor-transistor_logic
19:20:51 <ehird> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ is made entirely with 'em
19:20:59 <ehird> "It doesn't use an off-the-shelf microprocessor, but instead has a custom CPU made out of 74 Series TTL chips."
19:21:03 <ehird> what asiekierka was talking about a bit befor
19:21:05 <AnMaster> ehird, hm that have long signal paths
19:21:16 <AnMaster> it will be even slower than a FPGA...
19:21:54 <ehird> the magic-1 runs at 4mhz
19:22:00 <ehird> that's faster than an apple IIe
19:22:04 <ehird> and faster than a C64
19:22:08 <ehird> and faster than a PDP-11
19:22:12 <ehird> and faster then the IBM PC/XT
19:22:18 <asiekierka> BMOW doesn't use only 7400's, it also uses GAL's
19:22:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the same speed as a PIC12F629 iirc
19:22:24 <ehird> and a little slower than the Macintosh 512
19:22:33 <ehird> so... yeah, it's not exactly slow
19:22:40 <ehird> for a homebrew type thing
19:22:41 <AnMaster> ehird, which is a computer in a package with 8 legs.
19:22:44 <asiekierka> it outputs image to VGA, has sound, multitasking, cool stuff
19:22:53 <asiekierka> and it will be there (with Magic-1) at the Maker Faire or something
19:23:10 <ehird> http://hackaday.com/2009/02/27/bmow-a-home-made-cpu/ ah.
19:23:50 <ehird> "I was pleasantly surprised to find that Magic-1 has been quite solid at 4 Mhz."
19:23:54 <ehird> Hardcore overclocking
19:24:19 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!").
19:24:34 -!- jix has quit (Connection timed out).
19:25:00 <ehird> "Magic-1 continues to run rock solid at 3.75 Mhz with the new (and last - I hope) wiring modifications. There is only one hardware item left that causes me some minor concern: Magic-1 can't stand the heat. It is located in the master bedroom of my house (which, because I live in a very mild coastal climate, has no air conditioning). Sometimes, though, the temperature in the room gets up to 80 F. When this happens, Magic-1 starts failing. A typical
19:25:03 <ehird> heat-related failure is when running the Original Adventure program and it aborts at start-up with a vocabulary initialization failure. Once the room cools down in the evening, though, correct behavior resumes. "
19:25:07 <ehird> Then, the invention of the noisy computer fan.
19:25:14 <ehird> FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU—
19:26:53 <ehird> Well, just for jollies I tried running the old Whetstone benchmark on Magic-1 to see how my floating point performance is. I knew it would be really, really poor - and it is. I had to do a bit of modification to the benchmark source because my score was so low that it didn't register in the normal "Millions of Whetstones per Second" metric. As I predicted, it would be better for me to report Magic-1 in the "Dozens of Floating Point Operations per seco
19:26:57 <ehird> Anyway, I estimate that a full run of the benchmark will take somewhat more than 20 hours. My shortened run ended up at around 0.000134 MWIPS, or 11.2 DWIPS.
19:27:00 <ehird> I'll probably go ahead and do the full 20-hour run this weekend and officially submit my results :-).
19:27:07 <ehird> 11 dozen floating point operations a SECOND! WOW!
19:27:25 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/P5150118.JPG is cool
19:27:34 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it's like WOPR
19:27:41 <AnMaster> in fact, a computer where that is meaningful is cool
19:27:57 <AnMaster> I don't think you could read it fast enough
19:28:03 <ehird> (http://www.pldos.pl/bogus/hardware/komputery/imsai/pics/wargames_wopr.jpg)
19:28:07 <ehird> (from the movie Wargames)
19:28:09 <ehird> (in case you didn't know)
19:28:23 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of that movie
19:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, why does Magic-1 have a switch labled "DMA Req"
19:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anything with lamps on the front to show registers is by definition way too old to have DMA in my mind.
19:30:33 <ehird> AnMaster: it runs minix!
19:31:04 <ehird> AnMaster: modern computers have lights that flicker when the hard disk is used
19:31:35 <ehird> And no, they don't.
19:31:39 <ehird> Not even the Mac Pro.
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19:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: any more ammonia news?
19:33:37 <Slereah_> AnMaster died of ammonia poisoning
19:34:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you seem dead to me
19:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and iirc they contained it
19:35:13 * pikhq suggests a system architecture
19:35:38 <pikhq> There are two instructions: NOP and HCF.
19:35:53 <AnMaster> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Magic1.pdf <-- seems like it has CF slot on the back
19:36:18 <pikhq> And it has a 1-bit addressing scheme.
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19:36:32 <ehird> pikhq: No, I think four would be best. hcf, sfi (set fire intensity), sfg (set fire geometry), str (stutter).
19:36:35 <pikhq> Sorry, it has exactly one bit of memory.
19:36:48 <pikhq> Which can be either 0 or 1.
19:36:54 <ehird> You fiddle about with them all the time to perform the computation, you see.
19:36:58 <ehird> Also, it has an infinite tape.
19:37:04 <ehird> To modify it, make the fire burn it the right way.
19:37:12 <ehird> Therefore, it is turing complete.
19:37:18 <ehird> Jumps? Just burn the bits on the IP.
19:37:39 <pikhq> It can be implemented by a light switch wired up to a power source and a spark plug in a barrel of gunpowder.
19:37:51 <ehird> pikhq: Mine's better because it is TC.
19:38:04 <ehird> asiekierka: halt-and-catch-fire
19:38:05 <pikhq> asiekierka: Halt and Catch Fire.
19:38:31 <pikhq> ehird: Your idea sounds like an interesting Turing tarpit.
19:39:35 <Slereah_> Turing tarpits are the cool thing around here doncha know
19:39:40 <ehird> ais523: how much do you think it'd cost to get an fpga/vhdl environment? yeah it's so uncool but :P
19:39:47 <ehird> pikhq: Turing firepit, rather
19:39:53 <ehird> ais523: just a simple slow thing
19:40:15 <ais523> ehird: not a ridiculous amount if you just want low-end stuff and demonstration boards
19:40:28 <ehird> ais523: will the software run on linux?
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19:41:11 <ais523> ehird: I don't know; I've only ever seen Windows software for that
19:41:18 <ais523> but IME, such software normally works well on WINE
19:41:39 <ais523> well, at home I use VHDL, which is Linux, but it's just a simulator
19:41:40 <Sgeo> Windows software for what?
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19:42:00 <ais523> at University, we have a choice of programs
19:42:06 <ais523> any of which may or may not work in any given situation
19:42:15 <ehird> I just want non-shitty tools for cheap and an fpga to run stuff on :-)
19:42:17 <ais523> but the one you'll likely have to use is the low-end one that comes free with the demo board
19:42:26 <ais523> as the others will tend to be price on request
19:42:27 <Sgeo> Hardware stuff goes over my head
19:42:32 <ehird> ais523: crappy, I assume?
19:42:39 <ais523> not bad, but generally limited
19:42:42 <Sgeo> Mostly because I'm cheap
19:42:47 <ais523> sort-of, shareware-style
19:42:50 <ehird> and I doubt there's a buzzing pirate scene around FPGA stuff :-P
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19:43:19 <ais523> ehird: there's http://opencores.org which is not piracy, but open-source hardware is a great concept anyway
19:44:02 <ais523> I haven't used it much
19:44:10 <ais523> but from what I've heard, the stuff there's good and high quality
19:44:20 <ais523> but you won't find anything amazingly big and complex
19:44:25 <ais523> small processors are about the best you can hope for
19:44:38 <Sgeo> Can an fpga be made into a video card?
19:44:40 <ehird> ais523: wait, that's not fpga software?
19:44:41 <ehird> you implied it was
19:44:47 <ehird> see caustic graphics
19:44:49 <ais523> ehird: it's VHDL and Verilog code snippets
19:44:56 <ais523> Sgeo: an FPGA can be made into anything
19:44:56 <ehird> they are going to sell an fpga that does realtime raytracing
19:45:05 <ehird> w/ accompanying software
19:45:20 <ais523> the only difference between an FPGA and a dedicated chip are that the FPGA's slightly slower, and the dedicated chip is cheaper in bulk amounts
19:45:20 <ehird> ah, do sell, it seems
19:45:44 <Sgeo> ........so once I have fpgas, it's like being able to download hardware?
19:45:55 <ais523> although, only digital hardware
19:45:59 <ehird> **Sgeo's mind blows**
19:46:04 <Sgeo> ehird, yes, it did
19:46:06 <ais523> and you'll need extra components in order to do anything but digital inputs and outputs
19:46:25 <pikhq> I suggest doing CMOS analog circuitry. :p[
19:46:33 <ehird> i suggest nanotechnology
19:46:39 <ehird> after all, Intel say they'll do it by 2015
19:46:42 <ais523> pikhq: but then the whole thing would be type B, and you'd get massive distortion
19:46:53 <ais523> you'd probably want to tweak CMOS somewhat to make a type AB circuit
19:46:58 <ais523> pure-B is only good for digital stuff
19:47:04 <pikhq> ehird: Nano-robots? Forward the singularity!
19:47:08 <ehird> "The 11 nanometer (11 nm) node is the technology node following 16 nm node. The exact naming of this technology node comes from the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors (ITRS). According to the 2007 edition of this roadmap, by the year 2022, the half-pitch (i.e., half the distance between identical features in an array) for a DRAM should be 11 nm, although Intel's "Architecture and Silicon Cadence Model" places it closer to the year 2015.
19:47:10 <ehird> Intel's Pat Gelsinger claims that Intel sees a 'clear way' towards the 11 nm node.[1][2] "
19:47:11 <pikhq> ais523: It'd be crappy, yes.
19:47:12 <ehird> 11nm = nanotechnology
19:47:15 <pikhq> ais523: But it can be done.
19:47:22 <Sgeo> I've been fantasizing about open-source hardware, but only when imagining 3d printing that can do electronics
19:47:37 <ehird> it's called a fabricator
19:47:43 <ehird> do you have millions of dollars?
19:47:44 <ais523> pikhq: you'd have to be fighting the intrinsic digitalness of type-B circuits every step of the way
19:47:58 <ehird> pikhq: $200 silicon fabricator?
19:48:05 <pikhq> ehird: Reprap can print circuitry now.
19:48:08 <ais523> Sgeo: an FPGA's more like a single chip which is generic enough to be configured however you want
19:48:17 <ehird> pikhq: Reprap isn't really the same thing...
19:48:20 <pikhq> I'm thinking "circuit board" type printing.
19:48:21 <Sgeo> ais523, right, I understand
19:48:45 <ehird> Sgeo: you can buy fpgas pretty cheap, I think
19:48:46 <pikhq> ehird: That + FPGA = ... Well, print your own motherboard, anyone?
19:48:54 <ehird> ais523: how much is a demo kit? $200 or so right?
19:49:19 <ais523> but there are only two main manufacturers, more or less like with x86 chips and with graphics cards
19:49:26 <ais523> so it would be simple enough to just check both
19:49:47 <ehird> also, it seems that hardware companies gravitate to a two-manufacturer system
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19:50:28 <asiekierka> Well, I want to create a small-size computational machine, as in, a machine geared for computations
19:50:33 <pikhq> Because it's a hard market to get into, but a lucrative market to stay in?
19:50:39 <ais523> <Xilinx> (typical technology company homepage)
19:50:41 <ais523> <Altira> You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player. You also need to have javascript enabled.
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19:50:52 <ehird> ais523: the latter's typical too
19:50:53 <ehird> pikhq: yes, but, it's never 3 or 4
19:50:54 <ais523> hmm... round one goes to Xilinx, I think
19:51:01 <ais523> ehird: I mean in how it looks
19:51:11 <ehird> ais523: also, it's Altera
19:51:28 <ehird> that's a different FPGA company
19:51:29 <ehird> now that's confusing
19:51:54 <ais523> wow, that is confusing
19:51:59 <ais523> and I'm not entirely sure I got the right one now
19:52:07 <ehird> http://www.hitechglobal.com/boards/v5ddr3_pcie.htm
19:52:09 <ehird> is that what I want?
19:52:12 <ais523> Altera are the FPGA people
19:52:14 <ehird> it seems terribly bloated!
19:52:23 <ais523> and no, no way you'll be able to afford a Virtex
19:52:26 <ais523> those are the high-end chips
19:52:27 <ehird> ais523: Altira are about energy things
19:52:39 <ehird> also, it says PowerPC
19:52:43 <ehird> that's not very custom!
19:52:52 <ais523> they have integrated microprocessors nowadays
19:52:53 <ehird> ais523: http://www.xilinx.com/products/devboards/index.htm
19:52:58 <ehird> spartan or coolrunner
19:53:12 <ais523> spartan's the one that the university buys for students to mess with
19:53:15 <ehird> coolrunner is CPLD
19:53:24 <ehird> The Xilinx Spartan®-3A Starter Kit delivers instant access to Spartan-3A FPGA device features such as SUSPEND power-saving mode, high-speed I/O options, DDR2 SDRAM memory interface, commodity flash configuration support, and FPGA/IP protection using Device DNA Security.
19:53:26 <ais523> and I don't even know what CPLD stands for
19:53:28 <ehird> god that's so bloated
19:53:35 <ais523> ehird: they're all bloated
19:53:44 <ehird> ais523: i want a lean mean custom FPGAing machine :-P
19:54:16 <ehird> ais523: http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/kit-dev_platforms.jsp
19:54:20 <ais523> seems rather unlikely, given the way the industry operates
19:54:26 <ais523> personally, I think the FPGA industry is insane
19:54:30 <ais523> the whole industry, that is
19:54:45 <ehird> The low-cost Cyclone® II FPGA Starter Development Kit is ideal for evaluating Altera's high-performance, low-power, 90-nm technology. By using this RoHS-compliant starter development kit, you will see 60 percent (on average) higher performance and 50 percent (on average) lower power than competing 90-nm, low-cost FPGAs. Several reference designs and demonstrations included in the kit make for a quick, "out-of-the-box" evaluation experience.
19:54:46 <ais523> they get away with all sorts of ridiculous stuff because they don't have real competition
19:54:46 * pikhq observes once again that Magic-1 is pretty awesome
19:55:04 <ehird> ok, that's more minimal like I expected
19:55:13 <ehird> http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/images/fig1-cyclone2-staterkit.jpg
19:55:17 <ais523> that's the measurement of how complex an FPGA is
19:55:24 <ehird> ais523: doesn't say, what does it stand for?
19:55:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> although, only digital hardware
19:55:37 <ais523> it's how they're implemented
19:55:41 <ehird> ais523: http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/kit-cyc2-2C20N.html; it doesn't seem to tell you
19:55:52 <AnMaster> ais523, why not analogue FPGAs
19:55:53 <ehird> maybe the reference manual?
19:55:54 <ais523> ehird: look at the chip, not the development kit
19:56:04 <ais523> AnMaster: ever tried to write a truth-table for an analog circuit
19:56:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because FPGAs are a very, very digital-only design.
19:56:34 <ehird> ais523: http://www.altera.com/literature/lit-cyc2.jsp lots of cyclone ii shit
19:56:36 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact I have a vague memory of having read about such a FGPA... Something about "evolving" hardware...
19:56:38 <pikhq> We're talking logic gates here.
19:56:45 <ehird> AnMaster: that wasn't analogu
19:56:49 <ehird> that just used analogue IO
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19:57:08 <ais523> it was actually an attempt to use a digital combinatorial circuit in order to evaluate an analog sequential function
19:57:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it ended up using analogue bits inside iirc.
19:57:11 <ais523> which in theory is impossible
19:57:14 <ais523> but it ended up working anyway
19:57:39 <ehird> ais523: LEs seems to be it
19:57:51 <ais523> Altera use a different name for them
19:58:00 <ehird> ais523: the max of the cyclone IIS is 68,416
19:58:03 <ehird> so how good's 20K?
19:58:21 <ais523> 1 LUT is about equal to one byte of machine code
19:58:22 <ehird> (the min of the cyclone IIs is 4K :-P)
19:58:29 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc some components were not reachable, but when taken away the FPGA stopped working?
19:58:32 <ehird> ais523: ah, so it controls how advanced your machine can be?
19:58:45 <AnMaster> ais523, speculation about induction iirc
19:58:45 <ehird> ais523: what would, say, MIPS be?
19:58:58 <ais523> quite a lot more than that, I imagine
19:59:14 <ehird> ais523: ok, what about a really simple embedded ARM
19:59:20 <ais523> I've managed to use huge numbers of LUTs before just trying to do multiplication
19:59:28 <AnMaster> ehird, My ISP sent one for free. My ADSL modem runs on MIPS it seems
19:59:32 <ais523> a 32-bit multiplier costs a lot, if you don't have a separate one on the chip
19:59:36 <AnMaster> ehird, so do quite a few other ones that can run dd-wrt
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19:59:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't ask price
19:59:55 <ais523> RAM uses a lot of LUTs too (one per /bit/ of RAM, plus a few more), but nearly all FPGAs have on-board RAM separate from the LUTs
19:59:59 <ehird> ais523: i'd hate to be making a totally-awesome minimalist CPU and then run into a LE limit
20:00:04 <ehird> AnMaster: look up table
20:00:09 <ehird> this FPGA has 20K of them
20:00:23 <ehird> ais523: yeah—239,616 bits of RAM
20:00:40 <ais523> I love the way FPGA RAM is measured in bits
20:00:52 <ais523> because the word length depends on how you connect them up
20:00:57 <AnMaster> ais523, at least there is no 1000 vs 1024 thing then
20:01:00 <ehird> ais523: it's 39 kilobytes!
20:01:23 <ais523> ehird: is that the dedicated RAM, or the RAM if you use all the LUTs as RAM too?
20:01:36 <ais523> some manufacturers give the second value to make the chips look better than they are
20:01:40 <ehird> ais523: don't even know
20:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that is quite possible!
20:02:03 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: 8-Mbyte SDRAM
20:02:03 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: 512-Kbit SRAM
20:02:04 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: 4-Mbyte flash
20:02:08 <ehird> so it has external ram at well, at least
20:02:20 <ehird> how much do you think I could fit into 18,752 LEs?
20:03:22 <ais523> I'm trying to find some data on that atm
20:03:57 <ehird> wow, it supports 640x480 VGA
20:04:06 <ehird> it has a PS/2 connector
20:04:09 <ais523> they come with lots of useless features, normally
20:04:25 <ehird> ais523: like a 24-bit audio codec
20:04:43 <ehird> 4 seven-segment displays—that's FOUR calculators!
20:04:50 <ehird> ais523: a "USB-Blaster" port, whatever that is
20:04:52 <ehird> an SD card connector!
20:05:03 <ehird> microphone-in, line-in, line-out
20:05:05 <ehird> this is truly amazing
20:05:25 <ais523> those are one-digit seven-segment displays
20:05:34 <ehird> that's less than one calculator!
20:05:56 <ehird> Audio CODEC The development board provides a Wolfson WM8731high-quality, 24-bit,
20:05:56 <ehird> sigma-delta audio encoder/decoder (CODEC) for applications such as
20:05:57 <ehird> MP3 players and recorders, PDAs, smart phones, and voice recorders.
20:06:37 <ehird> ais523: so is altera verilog or vhdl?
20:06:47 <ais523> ehird: almost certainly both
20:06:56 <ais523> but the general rule is that the military uses vhdl, everyone else uses verilog
20:07:04 <ehird> I thought you used vhdl
20:07:10 <ais523> they're pretty much the same language nowadays anyway, just with different syntax
20:07:12 <ais523> and yes, I was tought VHDL
20:07:24 <ehird> Verilog's syntax looks nicer
20:07:25 <ais523> I suspect most talented FPGA people end up in the military...
20:07:37 <ais523> ehird: Verilog is C-like, VHDL is ADA-like
20:07:41 <ehird> ais523: figured out what 20K could fit?
20:07:53 <ais523> not yet, I'm still looking
20:07:59 <ehird> "However, using this 9-valued logic (U,X,0,1,Z,W,H,L,-) "
20:08:08 <ais523> booleans have 9 possible values in VHDL
20:09:02 <ehird> ais523: Verilog isn't that c like
20:09:05 <pikhq> ais523: ... 9 possible values?!?
20:09:07 <ehird> if (rst) // This causes reset of the cntr
20:09:10 <ehird> if (cet && cep) // Enables both true
20:09:14 <ehird> if (count == length-1)
20:09:17 <pikhq> HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
20:09:20 <ehird> count <= count + 5'b1; // 5'b1 is 5 bits
20:09:22 <ehird> end // wide and equal
20:09:24 <ehird> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1164
20:09:26 <ehird> impedance, drive and shit
20:09:29 <ehird> Because it's hardware.
20:09:55 <ais523> pikhq: true, false, true via a resistor, false via a resistor, contradiction, uninitialised, between true and false, unconnected, unknown
20:09:56 <ehird> ** pikhq has disconnected
20:09:56 <pikhq> I'll train a bunch of rodents to do my computations.
20:10:15 <ehird> http://www88.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=bacon+as+mass+of+milky+way&a=*C.bacon-_*ExpandedFood.dflt-&a=*C.milky+way-_*Astronomical.dflt-&a=*EAC.ExpandedFood.PreparedCuredPorkBacon-_**PreparedCuredPorkBacon.*Food%3ACookingMethod_Food%3APanFried---
20:10:18 <ais523> in RL, hardware can end up with a lot more values from 0 to 1
20:10:19 <ehird> Bacon as mass of milky way
20:10:42 <ehird> "Assuming "milky way" is an astronomical object | Use as a food instead "
20:10:44 * ehird eats the milky way
20:10:52 <pikhq> ehird: I use IP via carrier pigeon.
20:10:59 <ehird> (yes, I know it's a chocolate bar)
20:11:04 <pikhq> And I feed my pigeons coffee beans.
20:11:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> pikhq: true, false, true via a resistor, false via a resistor, contradiction, uninitialised, between true and false, unconnected, unknown <-- why is "via resistor" significant
20:11:17 <ehird> pikhq: that's hardware, just wetware
20:11:32 <pikhq> ehird: Well, yes. Wetware, however, makes much more sense.
20:11:38 <ehird> pikhq: Are you on crack? :-)
20:11:41 <ais523> AnMaster: because if you connect true via resistor to false, you get false
20:11:48 <ais523> but if you connect true to false, you get a contradiction
20:11:50 <pikhq> No, but my computer rats are.
20:12:01 <ais523> contradictions are /bad/, they can damage the chip in theory
20:12:31 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you model analogue cicuits
20:12:43 * pikhq makes sure the bit is in operating condition, gives it more crack, sets it back into RAM
20:12:53 <ais523> ehird: OK, I found some details: you can do an M68000 microprocessor in about 6000 LUTs
20:12:58 <ais523> depending on what other features of the chip you use
20:13:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: With a breadboard.
20:13:06 <ehird> ais523: that's pretty good
20:13:14 <AnMaster> would be nicer if you could do it more like VHDL
20:13:14 <ehird> that's very good, in fact
20:13:21 <ais523> AnMaster: using a language other than VHDL
20:13:29 <ehird> ais523: i could have over 20 68000s :P
20:13:38 <ais523> I'm not sure if there is one yet
20:13:52 <ais523> ehird: also, buy yourself an anti-static wrist strap, if you're planning to mess with FPGAs
20:14:00 <ais523> they're very static-sensitive, much more so than computers
20:14:24 <ehird> ais523: do you actually touch it much?
20:14:41 <ehird> I wouldn't expect so
20:15:12 <ais523> ehird: depends on what you're doing with it
20:15:24 <ais523> but mostly you wouldn't, I expect
20:15:43 <ais523> I'm paranoid about static, though, I've seen all sorts of good circuits ruined due to it
20:16:33 <AnMaster> what about making static-resistant/proof chipset
20:17:18 <pikhq> Possible, if you've got a chip fab.
20:17:20 <ehird> you mean a computer?
20:17:36 <ais523> AnMaster: could be, but the technique of using a static-sensitive chip and putting it in an antistatic box tens to be cheaper
20:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, no I mean FPGAs, ICs and so on
20:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: not what i meant
20:18:25 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on the internal logic method
20:18:33 <ais523> TTL-based chips are a lot less static-sensitive than CMOS, for instance
20:18:53 <ais523> but they use more power
20:18:59 <ais523> more power = more heat = harder to cool
20:19:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what method is used for current CPUs btw?
20:19:05 <ais523> so you have to run TTL-based circuits slower or they overheat
20:19:12 <ais523> and CMOS is pretty much standard for anything complicated
20:19:22 <ais523> simpler things are often lowpower-schottky-TTL
20:19:37 <ais523> if for some reason you don't want CMOS (say you're the military and want something that won't break in weird conditions)
20:19:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's some slightly different way to make a transistor, I think
20:20:05 <pikhq> ais523: Or if you're putting the thing in orbit.
20:20:12 <ehird> AnMaster: CMOS is used atm, but we're nearing on nanotechnology
20:20:12 <AnMaster> thought it was a typo for "shoddy"
20:20:20 <ais523> I imagine they don't use CMOS much on spacecraft
20:20:42 <ehird> 22nm is the last pure CMOS, iirc
20:20:47 <ehird> and 11nm is real nanoelectronics; I may be wrong
20:20:53 <pikhq> The space shuttle still has solid-state circuitry.
20:21:10 <AnMaster> ais523, did you mean "Schottky"?
20:21:12 <pikhq> Might even have some tubes.
20:21:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I said "Schottky", then you misqupted me
20:21:24 <ehird> "Fifteen nanometres is equivalent to 0.005906 thou, or 0.000015 millimetres, and is the width of a very very very very very thin human hair which you can't see unless your eyesight is very very very very very good." —The Inquirer
20:21:50 <ais523> there are a lot of nanometres in a deci-inch, surely
20:22:07 <ehird> ais523: it's very very very very very thin hair.
20:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: nope, 100% serious
20:22:28 <ais523> (deci-inches are /not/ the industry standard for pin spaces, that's the 2.54mm standard, but the name is inevitable given that it is exactly a tenth of an inch)
20:22:34 <pikhq> Wow. The space shuttle's RAM...
20:22:35 <ehird> the very-hair-very-eyesight measurement system is very very very common
20:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't get human hair that thin
20:22:43 <ehird> AnMaster: prove it
20:22:51 <ais523> pikhq: that's brilliant
20:22:54 <ais523> and actually, doesn't surprise me
20:23:03 <ais523> given that they must actually get loads of cosmic rays up there
20:23:18 <ais523> I imagine the transistors in the processors are massively big by today's standards, too
20:23:18 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_AP-101 They've got 5 of these.
20:23:23 <ehird> AnMaster: "Analyze every human hair on the planet" "too lazy" Understatement of the century
20:23:23 <ais523> probably measured in microns
20:23:48 <ehird> ais523: eh, 1 um was circa 1985
20:24:01 <ehird> and we had 0.X ums until 2002-2003
20:24:06 <pikhq> It's a System 360.
20:24:08 <ehird> (before that 0.13 um)
20:24:18 <ais523> ehird: big in order to avoid radiation disruption, rather than because they can't make them smaller
20:24:27 <ehird> I'm just saying it's not THAT old
20:26:20 <pikhq> They upgraded the thing in 1990.
20:26:27 <pikhq> They use an AP-101s.
20:26:31 <pikhq> Has semiconductor memory.
20:26:55 <pikhq> And a whole 1.2 MIPS.
20:28:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't say that. You said "prove it". Which could be referring to some report
20:28:35 <ehird> AnMaster: such a report would have to review all human hair too
20:30:23 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. Just prove it isn't possible.
20:30:50 <ehird> "On Monday, I start at Google. I don't know the exact details of what I'll be doing there, but I can only assume that the bright folks there have realized that the future of massively powerful data centers belongs to wire-wrapped TTL. I'll be sure to bring my wire-wrap gun." —homebrewcpu.com
20:31:44 <pikhq> He works on Android.
20:32:45 <ehird> [[Shortly after I declared Magic-1 "hardware complete", I casually mentioned to my wife that I was starting to think about Magic-2. Her response was swift, and final:
20:32:47 <ehird> "No, there will be no Magic-2!"
20:32:51 <ehird> I can't blame her. She was an extraordinary good sport during Magic-1's design and construction - especially during the wire-wrapping phase. For most of a year, she put up with electronic junk littering the kitchen table, wire-wrap insulation fragments on the floor and a husband often lost in concentration while the kids were hollering for attention.
20:32:58 <ehird> She's the love of my life, the woman I plan on growing old with, mother of my children, my partner and best friend. I have to respect her wishes on this.
20:33:03 <ehird> So, there will be no Magic-2.
20:33:07 <ehird> Instead, we'll call the follow-on project "Magic-16".]]
20:33:18 <ais523> I know what wire-wrapping is
20:33:24 <ais523> just I'm slightly surprised it was being used
20:33:28 <pikhq> ais523: Magic-1 is a wire-wrapped TTL machine.
20:33:30 <ehird> ais523: it IS a homebrew cpu...
20:33:35 <ehird> and avoids soldering
20:33:37 <ais523> yes, but I would have soldered
20:33:45 <ehird> ais523: have you seen it?
20:33:46 <ais523> because it's easier and more reliable
20:33:52 <ehird> I wouldn't say it's easier
20:33:54 <ehird> soldering is a pain
20:33:56 <ais523> and no, I haven't seen it
20:33:59 <pikhq> He wanted it to be hard-core.
20:34:12 <ais523> and especially with the typical scale of TTL chips, soldering is easy
20:34:20 <ais523> they're some of the easiest things to solder
20:34:26 <ehird> ais523: http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/bu_3.JPG
20:34:35 <ais523> annoying soldering is if you have something in a SOIC package
20:34:42 <ais523> I once spent several hours soldering one of those
20:34:50 <ehird> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/P5140113.JPG ← it has a window, just like HARDKOR PCS!
20:34:53 <ais523> with a magnifying glass and a special soldering iron
20:35:03 <ehird> ais523: wire-wrapping is more beautiful, though
20:35:09 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Computerplatine_Wire-wrap_backplane_detail_Z80_Doppel-Europa-Format_1977.jpg
20:35:29 <ais523> ugh no, that's just illegible
20:35:39 <ehird> ais523: but pretty
20:35:46 <ais523> and could be soldered in about half a second per pin for someone who knew what they were doing
20:35:54 <ais523> which is faster than the wire-wrap would be
20:35:58 <ehird> ais523: and who didn't care about burning themselves :)
20:36:16 <ais523> ehird: with the apparent scale of that, burning oneself would be really rather unlikely
20:36:27 <ais523> your hands would be nowhere near the soldering itself
20:36:42 <pikhq> Part of the idea was to be retro.
20:36:44 <ais523> soldering burns are more likely when putting the soldering iron away afterwards
20:36:47 <ais523> (I know this from experience)
20:36:49 <pikhq> And wire-wrapping is very retro.
20:36:57 <pikhq> ais523: You fail. :p
20:37:06 <pikhq> ... Granted, I've done worse.
20:37:10 <ais523> pikhq: no, it's nearer your hand then than at any time during the actual soldering
20:37:17 <ais523> I've burnt myself about three times like that
20:37:19 <pikhq> (I once grabbed a soldering iron by the tip by accident)
20:37:43 <pikhq> Yeah, I got a pretty solid burn from that.
20:37:51 <ais523> running your hand under the cold tap for a few minutes normally means you have no lasting effects
20:37:57 <AnMaster> I never burned on my soldering iron
20:38:03 <ais523> pikhq: maybe you should get one of the solder gun things
20:38:11 <ais523> which heats up in about 3 seconds, and cools down just as quickly
20:38:23 <ehird> I once touched a hot, bright lightbulb with the my hand directly.
20:38:27 <ehird> In a sort of grasping motion.
20:38:36 <ehird> That was not actually very damaging.
20:38:38 <ais523> AnMaster: you wrap the wire around a lot, tightly
20:38:52 <AnMaster> ais523, trapping the end under the wraps?
20:39:04 <ais523> no, you wrap the end of the wire around the pin
20:39:09 <ais523> if you wrap tightly enough, it stays on
20:39:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: The process of wire-wrapping creates a cold weld.
20:40:08 <ehird> ais523: "Wire wrap construction can produce assemblies which are more reliable than printed circuits"
20:40:12 <pikhq> Bringing two pieces of metal in contact with each other at enough pressure welds them together.
20:40:21 <ais523> ehird: yes, I've seen some /really/ low quality printed circuits in the past
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20:40:45 <ais523> soldering is more reliable than wire-wrapping; but the actual printed wires on PCBs can often be awful
20:40:49 <ais523> so the connections are fine, but the wires break
20:41:06 <ais523> you can use stripboard if you want the reliability of wires and of soldering
20:41:07 <pikhq> Works only with metals that don't oxidize, IIRC.
20:41:18 <ais523> but that doesn't work on high-frequency circuits
20:41:34 <ais523> pikhq: most wires in use nowadays are tin-plated, though, even though they're made of copper
20:41:39 <ais523> that's why they don't look red like copper does
20:42:51 * pikhq observes that wire-wrapping is kinda cool, if absurdly labor-intensive.
20:43:10 <pikhq> Unless you've got a handheld wire-wrapping tool or an automatic wire-wrapper.
20:43:21 <pikhq> (the latter is about as cheap as a chip fab)
20:43:38 <ehird> i want one of those loom things
20:43:41 <ehird> and emulate x86 on them
20:43:50 <ehird> it'd totally be possible
20:43:54 <ais523> pikhq: but solder wave baths are cool too
20:44:03 <ais523> ehird: but x86 is an awful architecture
20:44:07 <pikhq> ais523: Indeed, they are.
20:44:10 <ehird> ais523: thus making the emulation more impressive
20:44:20 <pikhq> That's just painful.
20:44:31 <pikhq> Now, I bet that Magic-1 could run X.
20:44:37 <pikhq> Not well, but it could run.
20:44:42 <pikhq> (assuming video hardware)
20:44:45 <ais523> rather slowly, I'd imagine
20:44:49 <ehird> It could run X pretty nicely.
20:44:51 <ehird> 4mhz isn't too bad...
20:44:52 <AnMaster> ais523, are there good quality printed circuit boards?
20:44:56 <ehird> You could run a few xterms.
20:45:13 <pikhq> It wouldn't be fancy stuff like we're used to, but it'd at least run X.
20:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, right. But none of those you actually end up soldering on yourself!
20:45:22 <ais523> what's really disappointing, though, is that at University, we couldn't make our own PCBs for safety reasons
20:45:22 <pikhq> Not much more than Xterms and TWM, I'd imagine.
20:45:28 <ais523> so we had to pay for the technicians to make them
20:45:37 <ais523> and they came out lower-quality than the ones I'd made alone at secondary school
20:45:40 <pikhq> That's really lame.
20:45:49 <AnMaster> ais523, is it hard to make PCBs?
20:45:50 <ais523> pikhq: very, considering I was approved to make them when at school
20:45:51 <pikhq> All you really need to make a PCB is a dark room.
20:45:59 <ais523> AnMaster: no, you just need the appropriate equipment
20:46:10 <ehird> pikhq: xterms and twm should be enough for anyone
20:46:13 <ais523> AnMaster: it involves chemicals
20:46:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: The best way to do it at home is a photographic process.
20:46:25 <ehird> ais523: oxygen is a chemical!111
20:46:26 <ais523> some of which are moderately dangerous
20:46:26 <AnMaster> ais523, err... So what about chemistry classes at uni
20:46:32 <ais523> pikhq: you don't need a dark room
20:46:38 <ais523> I agree with the photographic process
20:46:42 <ais523> but it's done with ultraviolet
20:46:53 <ais523> so as long as you block out natural light and are fast, you don't care about visible light around
20:47:03 <ehird> ais523: that's how you make printed circuit boards?
20:47:04 <pikhq> ais523: The thing is, a dark room has all the equipment you need.
20:47:08 <ehird> like developing a photograph with ultraviolet?
20:47:24 <pikhq> I didn't say it needs to actually be dark.
20:47:38 <ehird> that's ultra mega awesome
20:47:44 <pikhq> ehird: Enlarger, wash basin, and some chemicals. :)
20:47:52 <ehird> what do you actually develop, though?
20:48:00 <ais523> ehird: basically, you have PCBs coated with copper, where the copper is itself coated with photoresist
20:48:08 <ais523> you print out your design on tracing paper
20:48:20 <ais523> then shine ultraviolet through the tracing paper onto the photoresist
20:48:29 <ehird> what does the design look like?
20:48:37 <ais523> ehird: the shape of the copper you need
20:48:45 <ehird> haha that's so awesome.
20:48:46 <ais523> ink where the copper is, blank where it isn't
20:48:57 <ais523> so it's arguably a positive, the whole process is a double-negative
20:48:59 <ehird> so this is how they make motherboards?
20:49:06 <ais523> for motherboards, it's automated
20:49:18 <ais523> and the boards have multiple layers, so it's a bit more complicated
20:49:19 <pikhq> ais523: Oh, didn't realise that it was positive-positive printing.
20:49:51 <ais523> pikhq: black on the input = no ultraviolet = fixed photoresist = the acid can't get to the copper
20:49:57 <ais523> so it's sort-of double-negative printing
20:50:01 <pikhq> I wasn't thinking.
20:50:25 <pikhq> That's positive printing. ;)
20:50:58 <ais523> anyway, once you've shined the ultraviolet onto the photoresist, you take the whole thing over to a vat of developer
20:51:01 <ais523> and submerge it in there
20:51:07 <ehird> I wonder what the ideal instruction set for C is
20:51:20 <ais523> the photoresist is naturally green, but it turns purple in the developer and washes off in a sort of wispy fashion, it's rather pretty
20:51:29 <ais523> then you dip the whole thing in a vat of acid
20:51:36 <ais523> and that's the bit that people keep screwing up
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20:51:48 <ehird> ais523: I always thought motherboards were just like, squirting and denting silicon and copper and shit with machines.
20:51:48 <pikhq> But you can run the original compiler on a PDP-11.
20:51:53 <ehird> Photographic motherboards is so cooler.
20:51:58 <ais523> if you don't leave it in there long enough, the acid doesn't have enough time to etch away the copper
20:52:00 <ais523> and you get open circuits
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20:52:20 <pikhq> ais523: That's kinda lame.
20:52:21 <ais523> if you leave it in there too long, the acid gets in under the photoresist and the wires become unreliable
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20:52:42 <pikhq> Especially since the etching isn't that much harder than a photographic fixer...
20:52:49 <ehird> wow, Minix doesn't do copy-on-write when fork()ing
20:52:57 <ais523> which is why it's beyond me that people keep screwing it up
20:52:57 <pikhq> Granted, the etch bath is a bit more caustic than a fixer.
20:53:02 <ais523> I am, as you guessed, rather bitter about this
20:53:31 <ais523> (also, a 45-degree angle or less on a PCB is known as an "acid trap", because the acid tends to get stuck in it even after you've taken the PCB out of the acid)
20:53:33 <pikhq> I mean, really. It's a process that's well over a hundred years old by now.
20:53:40 <pikhq> My *grandmother* could do it better.
20:53:57 <pikhq> (really; she has dark room equipment laying around)
20:54:00 <ais523> pikhq: what method do you use in order to get the spare photoresist off afterwards?
20:54:19 <ais523> when I used to do it, we did it by covering the whole board with ultraviolet and developing a second time
20:54:23 * Corun notes that tanenbaum is giving a lecture as his uni a week on thursday
20:54:27 <pikhq> ais523: For a circuit board?
20:54:32 <pikhq> I think that's the best method.
20:54:37 <ais523> pikhq: yes, it works because there are no components
20:54:48 <ais523> although there are at least two methods which work at that point
20:54:50 <pikhq> Might be a wash bath instead, but *shrug*
20:55:10 <ais523> I've seen a catalogue that recommended you used a PCB eraser to clean the lines of photoresist
20:55:17 <pikhq> Corun: That's pretty nice. I recommend going, he's a rather good speaker.
20:55:18 <ais523> and a PCB eraser works much the same way to a pencil eraser
20:55:41 <Corun> Tell him about all my next gen OS ideas :-)
20:55:41 <ehird> I wonder if tanenbaum still considers linux obsolete
20:55:44 <Corun> Or maybe I shouldn't...
20:55:52 * pikhq saw his address at USENIX ATC '08, after he got the USENIX Lifetime Achievement Award. Good lecture.
20:55:55 <Corun> I mean he could just steal them ^_^
20:56:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tanenbaum.
20:56:30 <pikhq> Corun: Feel free to tell him.
20:56:30 <ehird> You DON'T KNOW WHO TANENBAUM IS?
20:56:34 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it German for xmas tree...
20:56:34 <ehird> Stop using a computer right now.
20:56:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Less talking, more shutting off.
20:56:48 <Corun> Minix inventor, and author of like a million OS books and basically he's professor of all Operating Systems.
20:56:48 <pikhq> He likes talking about kernel designs.
20:57:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: He wrote the book on kernels.
20:57:09 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm pretty fscking sure ais523 knows who Tanenbaum is...
20:57:15 <AnMaster> ehird, considering he didn't know who jwz was...
20:57:21 <ehird> He knew who jwz was.
20:57:27 <ehird> He just didn't know he worked on Netscape.
20:57:27 <ais523> AnMaster: according to lingbot, "Tanenbaum" translated from German to English is "apertium"
20:57:39 <ehird> ais523: you knew who jwz was, didn't you?
20:57:41 <ais523> but as far as I know, "apertium" isn't an English world
20:57:43 <ehird> just not that he worked on netscape
20:58:10 <ais523> ehird: my situation with Tanenbaum is similar; I know he's famous in computers/programming, but can't remember what for
20:58:18 <ehird> ais523: flaming Linux
20:58:21 <ehird> is the most famous thing
20:58:29 <ehird> and a gigantic amount of operating system textbooks
20:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, so don't complain about me then
20:58:41 <ehird> but most famous popculture wise, definitely flaming Linux way back then
20:58:47 <ehird> AnMaster: at least he had a vague idea
20:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the name did sound familiar
20:59:05 <ais523> ah, Minix, that was it
20:59:08 <ais523> why did he flame Linux?
20:59:15 <ehird> ais523: monolithic kernel
20:59:17 <ais523> for doing things differently?
20:59:20 <Corun> Cos he considered it a step backwards in operating system design
20:59:40 <ehird> ais523: http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/appa.html
20:59:41 <ais523> and the funny thing is, with modules, Linux managed to work around many of the disadvantages of being monolithic
21:00:01 <ehird> although it was restarted in 2006, it seems
21:00:03 <AnMaster> ehird, why did he flame linux btw
21:00:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude! What is UP with your SCROLLBACK?
21:00:22 <ehird> You never seem to use it...
21:00:23 <pikhq> ais523: Linux is an example of good monolithic design.
21:00:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I was searching on wikipedia for it
21:00:37 <pikhq> I suspect a very sophisticated microkernel could be better, but *shrug*.
21:00:41 <ais523> oh, apparently, according to lingbot, "Tanenbaum" in German translates to "apertium" in English, Swedish, /and/ French
21:00:55 <ehird> pikhq: Microkernels are evil.
21:00:58 <pikhq> I'm just happy using a well-designed kernel.
21:01:01 <ehird> So's monolithic kernels.
21:01:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: Minix style, bitch. ;)
21:01:30 <ais523> now I'm curious as to what "apertium" means, it looks vaguely Latin
21:01:32 <ehird> http://tunes.org/cliki/microkernel_20debate.html
21:01:36 <AnMaster> ais523, um I suspect a bug: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apertium
21:01:43 <AnMaster> it is a translation software it seems
21:01:45 <ehird> & http://tunes.org/cliki/kernel.html
21:01:50 <ehird> & http://tunes.org/cliki/no-kernel.html
21:01:54 <ais523> [21:01] <ais523> lingbot: en de "test"?
21:01:55 <ais523> [21:01] <lingbot> ais523: "Test" (en to de, apertium)
21:02:00 <ais523> I think it's a bug too
21:02:09 <AnMaster> ais523, it is using that software, but it is buggy?
21:04:05 <ais523> ehird: according to that page you linked, NT's a microkernel
21:04:15 <ehird> according to it, NT was originally designed as a microkernel
21:04:21 <ehird> but grew into a monolithic one
21:04:30 <ehird> and then it says that was disputed by an NT architect
21:05:09 <ais523> heh, Tanenbaum seems to hate x86 just as much as everyone else
21:06:02 <ehird> But in all honesty, I would
21:06:03 <ehird> suggest that people who want a **MODERN** "free" OS look around for a
21:06:03 <ehird> microkernel-based, portable OS, like maybe GNU or something like that.
21:06:09 <ehird> I love how GNU was a reasonable OS proposition for the future in 1992
21:06:44 <ais523> maybe it would have been, if more people worked on it
21:06:55 <ehird> it'd have been terribly bloated
21:07:00 <ais523> I wonder if there's anything intrinsically wrong with Hurd, or just if it never caught on
21:07:03 <ais523> but then... GNU design
21:07:07 <ais523> ah yes, it would never have caught on
21:07:52 <ehird> ais523: have you read the HURD design?
21:08:04 <ais523> ehird: bits of it, but I think my brain shut off
21:08:15 <ais523> AnMaster: GNU programs tend to get bloated over time
21:08:16 <ehird> it involves kernels being kernels among other kernels while a centralized kernel manages them in a kernel way
21:08:26 <ehird> and then you get injected with LSD
21:08:31 <ais523> which is strange, as other open-source software doesn't
21:08:36 <ehird> (part of the bootup phrase, I thikn)
21:09:07 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't even know
21:09:27 <ehird> It's not anything I've seen before
21:09:56 <ehird> heh, it has a server with the express purpose of handling crashes
21:10:35 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/env: python -O: No such file or directory
21:10:47 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not fail
21:11:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it's your system having an arbitrary limitation
21:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you can only give one parameter on that line
21:11:12 <ehird> only one is guaranteed, I think
21:11:19 <ehird> but the only reason more wouldn't work is due to artificial limitation
21:11:24 <ehird> AnMaster: _guaranteed_
21:11:26 <ehird> more isn't invalid
21:11:44 <ais523> AnMaster: fail, /usr/bin/env is more than 8 letters long
21:11:55 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's an artificial POSIX limitation
21:12:07 <ehird> POSIX has no limitation on it
21:12:12 <ehird> it just states that you're only guaranteed one argument
21:12:17 <ehird> if you can't handle more, your kernel sucks
21:12:30 <AnMaster> ehird, going to stay on OS X then
21:12:44 <ehird> moving to a PC != the linux kernel is good
21:12:47 <ais523> ah, it seems that the limit's 32
21:13:03 <ais523> as in, some old shells will cut off #! lines after 32 characters
21:13:10 <ais523> man perlrun warns about that
21:13:17 <ais523> in case your command-line options get cut in half
21:13:22 <ais523> (Perl parses #! lines itself)
21:13:22 <AnMaster> Another way that some historical implementations handle shell scripts is by recognizing the first
21:13:22 <AnMaster> two bytes of the file as the character string "#!" and using the remainder of the first line of the
21:13:22 <AnMaster> file as the name of the command interpreter to execute.
21:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster: if that's true, then /usr/bin/env is invalid
21:13:43 <ehird> as it'd mean you can't specify any arguments
21:13:45 <ehird> so sir, the fail is on you
21:14:00 <ais523> incidentally, would just #!python work?
21:14:24 <ais523> as in, does it do a path search for the executable you ask, or does it just go to the place you ask/
21:14:29 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % cat>a
21:14:33 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % chmod +x a
21:14:34 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % ./a
21:14:36 <ehird> zsh: ./a: bad interpreter: python: no such file or directory
21:15:07 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, the wrapper script is broken on Linux.
21:15:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, needs to be fixed
21:15:26 <ehird> AnMaster: can I point out some hypocrisy here?
21:15:40 <ehird> you refuse to support systems that don't support POSIX properly. why should lifthrasiir make up for a deficiency in your kernel?
21:16:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I support systems that support what POSIX + XSI requires
21:16:10 <AnMaster> and this is more than what POSIX + XSI requires
21:16:19 <ehird> he supports systems that don't have artificial limitations on #! arguments
21:16:43 <ais523> whereas with C-INTERCAL, I aim to eventually support anything which has a program vaguely resembling a C compiler
21:16:47 <ais523> although I'm not there yet
21:16:59 <AnMaster> 1. The shell reads its input from a file (see sh), from the −c option or from the system( ) and
21:16:59 <AnMaster> popen( ) functions defined in the System Interfaces volume of POSIX.1-2008. If the first
21:16:59 <AnMaster> line of a file of shell commands starts with the characters "#!", the results are
21:17:12 <AnMaster> ais523, the section on the shell
21:17:24 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, so depending on #!-lines is unportable
21:17:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: the german spelling is "Tannenbaum"
21:17:32 <ehird> you're digging yourself into a hole here, AnMaster
21:17:42 <ehird> this is exactly why strict POSIX compliance is bullshit
21:17:44 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster: wait, that's about calling a shell with a file starting #! as its argument
21:17:52 <ais523> that's different from running a program starting #!
21:17:57 <ehird> ais523: are you sure?
21:17:59 <ais523> unless the #! line specifies a shell
21:17:59 <ehird> ./a executes the shell on a
21:18:12 <ais523> ehird: no, because what if it's a binary?
21:18:45 <ais523> AnMaster: I fail to see why that's obvious
21:19:04 <AnMaster> ais523, because XSH is system interfaces, the C API.
21:19:17 <ehird> SH means system interfaces
21:19:20 <ais523> yes, but I don't imagine that that's common knowledge
21:19:21 <AnMaster> ais523, POSIX comes in 4 volumes...
21:19:32 <ais523> so something that depends on it is not "obvious"
21:19:51 <AnMaster> ehird, XCU means "Shell and Utilities"
21:19:59 <ehird> C stands for Shell
21:19:59 <ais523> that's like saying that #1 $ #1 equals #3, obviously
21:20:49 <AnMaster> XBD Is Base Defintion. Says stuff like "mount point" being an implementation defined concept
21:21:35 <ehird> ais523: We should make a DS9K implementation of POSIX
21:21:41 <ehird> just to trample on everyone touting POSIX compliance
21:21:45 <ehird> I'd do it on my own, but you're eviller
21:21:50 <ehird> ais523: that's more a DS9King of the tests
21:22:16 <ehird> something that'd pass a stock POSIX test suite run by an unbiased tester, but still be completely broken on more or less anything
21:22:22 <ais523> but you mean, an implementation that's more interesting than ENOTIMPLEMENTED as a return value for everything?
21:25:56 <ehird> ais523: would it be possible to implement posix in user-mode?
21:25:59 <ehird> completely compliant
21:26:13 <ais523> ehird: I don't see why not, so long as you can implement devices somehow
21:26:33 <ehird> ais523: just map them to the host devices
21:26:37 <ehird> wait, which devices
21:26:42 <ehird> or physical I/O devices
21:26:52 <ehird> you'd have your own in-memory FS, ofc
21:26:54 <ais523> from the point of view of the testsuite
21:28:03 <ehird> BA-K-47: America's No. 1 bacon-based assault rifle
21:28:04 <ais523> and now it's hit Slashdot: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/19/1846258&from=rss
21:28:05 <ehird> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dailydish/2009/05/bak47-the-gun-that-will-revolt-and-defeat-terrorists.html
21:28:13 <ais523> I have no idea if I'm responsible for all this or not...
21:28:52 <ais523> can't be bothered, and don't have a good way to ask
21:29:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
21:31:30 <ehird> ais523: a kernel that can run in user-mode would be interesting
21:31:41 <ehird> like, it requires a basis of functions that either map to the host OS or the hardware
21:31:46 <ehird> and the rest of the kernel is built on top of them
21:31:56 <ehird> so you could, say, do a VPS or a jail really cheaply
21:32:01 <ais523> ehird: that's basically how gcc-bf's fake operating system works
21:32:14 <ehird> right, but it could be both usermode and hardware
21:32:36 <ais523> I love the way I implemented a filesystem
21:32:50 <ais523> it's just a dictionary of file against file contents, implemented using linear search
21:32:56 <ais523> possibly the world's worst filesystem
21:33:23 <ehird> ais523: oh, with user-mode posix, you could run a standard filesystem on a real harddisk
21:33:29 <pikhq> ehird: So, something like UML?
21:33:36 <ehird> although you'd probably want to do it in a big file, to avoid the whole root thing
21:33:38 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
21:33:39 <ehird> and for convenience
21:33:47 * pikhq waveth at the Rodger
21:33:49 <ehird> pikhq: it just emulates the hardware for linux, doesn't it?
21:33:55 <ehird> not actually run a kernel properly tuned to usermodeity
21:34:22 <pikhq> ehird: It's not very well-tuned, but it does implement everything in terms of Linux system calls.
21:34:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> but you mean, an implementation that's more interesting than ENOTIMPLEMENTED as a return value for everything? <-- isn't allowed for most stuff in 2008
21:34:32 <ehird> pikhq: eh, even so
21:34:39 <AnMaster> for example in POSX 2008 mmap() is required
21:34:44 <pikhq> And it's been ported to Cygwin before. I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard to abstract it further.
21:35:30 <pikhq> Hmm. A usermode POSIX kernel would be pretty cool to implement, actually.
21:35:34 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, have you been away?
21:35:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm very much enjoying the public reaction to Alpha- "This seems to be pretty useless. It cannot tell me how many cigarettes would fit between the earth and the sun, the nutritional value of Lindsay Lohan, or how big Shaq would have to be to dunk the moon."
21:35:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Just not in this channel.
21:35:56 <ais523> AnMaster: mmap doesn't force you to map anywhere in particular in memory, though, does it?
21:36:20 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: It also can't plot the distance to jupiter over time, although it can give you the distance to jupiter in a given year. Don't make excuses for its shittiness.
21:36:31 <ehird> And yes, I worded it every which way.
21:36:31 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, I just never noticed you left.
21:36:36 <ais523> also, children can't legally use it, or so the terms of service claim
21:36:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I leave that to the OS. by passing a NULL pointer
21:36:51 <ais523> AnMaster: so couldn't you just allocate a bitmap and copy the file into it, and then copy the bitmap back into the file when it closed?
21:36:52 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I'm mostly on irc.esper.net these days, so I just haven't bothered to connect to freenode as well
21:37:25 <ais523> it would be inefficient; but no reason why you can't implement mmap in userspace
21:37:31 <AnMaster> ais523, if you can handle the updates on writes from other processes correctly
21:37:34 <ais523> attempts to map into a particular location would presumably always be rejected
21:37:43 <ais523> AnMaster: you could commit the file at every context switch
21:37:51 <ais523> that would be /really/ inefficient, but correct I think
21:38:07 <ais523> it would make mmap rather unusuable, but if this is meant to be a DS9K, why not?
21:38:23 <AnMaster> ais523, but I fail to see how it would break any app relying on common behaviour. Would just make them slow.
21:38:28 <ehird> ais523: it seems this has split into two; DS9Ksix and Usersix
21:38:36 <RodgerTheGreat> a neural-network backpropagation trainer in postscript!
21:38:38 <pikhq> Ah, the postscript neural network.
21:38:40 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: *clicks, browser freezes*
21:38:48 <ehird> Neural networks are pretty simpl
21:39:47 <ais523> ehird: about your link a couple of screens back, there was a story on Slashdot a few months ago about how someone had managed to cut through metal with a piece of bacon
21:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, and anyway I rely on reading different member of union having a sensible result. Should anyone actually run into real issues with it for cfunge I could add a memcpy() variant as a compile time option.
21:39:54 <ais523> by making it really hot, or something
21:39:57 <AnMaster> but then I want actual proof for it failing
21:40:29 <pikhq> You know what'd be cool to build? A computer using cordwood construction.
21:40:34 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cordwoodcircuit.agr.jpg
21:40:46 <ais523> AnMaster: using unions for type punning is legal, IIRC, because that's what they were designed for
21:41:04 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc reading from different member is implementation defined
21:41:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: High-density circuit design using wire-ended components.
21:42:00 <pikhq> You stick the components between two circuit boards. ;)
21:42:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, hard to solder I imagine
21:42:29 <RodgerTheGreat> actually not too bad to solder, but a bitch to assemble on any kind of scale
21:42:29 <pikhq> Even harder how it was originally done.
21:42:48 <ais523> one C weirdness: you can use different sorts of pointers to point to different things, but all pointers to unions must have the same representation no matter what sort of union it is
21:42:51 <RodgerTheGreat> the difficulty in aligning components grows exponentially relative to the number of components
21:43:33 <ais523> AnMaster: what exactly are you unioning?
21:43:34 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: At the time, your alternatives for high-density circuit design were non-existent.
21:43:47 <pikhq> This is before surface-mounted components and integrated circuits.
21:44:04 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you know float's 32 bits long
21:44:08 <ais523> that's obviously unportable
21:44:11 <pikhq> And now, you'd only do it for similar reasons to doing a wire-wrapped computer.
21:44:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: C doesn't say it's IEEE.
21:44:44 <ais523> AnMaster: C doesn't demand IEE representation
21:44:47 <RodgerTheGreat> well, wire-wrapping has some distinct mechanical advantages that can occasionally make it worthwhile
21:44:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and I already replied to why
21:45:08 <pikhq> And floats are often-times done using x87 instructions.
21:45:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I think building a CPU as a freeformed circuit would be beautiful and impressive
21:45:21 <pikhq> Which are fucking crazy, instead of IEEE.
21:45:41 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Mmm, yeah.
21:45:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure. But as long as float are 32 bits I'm happy. Anyway FPDP and FPSP won't work if the floats/doubles are of other sizes
21:46:25 <RodgerTheGreat> if I had more EE chops I'd totally do it. If someone designed one that seemed to be on a feasible scale I'd help assemble it
21:46:26 <ais523> ok, using a union for type-punning is permitted by 6.5.7, but there may be other reasons it's illegal
21:46:40 <AnMaster> ais523, C99 Annex F (normative)
21:46:42 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Same.
21:46:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I could probably build one out of TTL logic chips, but that seems like cheating
21:47:10 <AnMaster> ais523, exact behaviour is implementation defined iirc
21:47:25 <pikhq> I dunno. Free-form even with TTL logic would be impressive.
21:47:43 <pikhq> Actually, if you could build one with TTL logic chips, you could probably hand-build one.
21:47:58 <AnMaster> ais523, what section did you really mean
21:48:01 <pikhq> Surely you could just get a good design for logic gates instead?
21:49:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I meant 6.5.7, unfortunately there are two versions of the C standard which are identical apart from section numberin
21:50:29 <AnMaster> ais523, what section name did you mean
21:50:43 <ais523> let me finish reading, then I'll tell you
21:50:50 <ais523> and I don't know offhand, I'd have to go back and look
21:50:51 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80487
21:51:00 <pikhq> ... That is one bizarre 'coprocessor'.
21:51:50 <pikhq> Your i487 SX could in theory be a downgrade. XD
21:52:46 <pikhq> Your previous 486 SX.
21:52:58 <pikhq> There was more than one clock speed on those. :p
21:53:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, surely you needed matching speeds?
21:54:04 <pikhq> ais523: 'Coprocessor', since by inserting it, you disable the 80486 on your motherboard.
21:54:18 <ais523> it's more an instead-processor
21:54:33 <pikhq> Thus the scare quotes.
21:54:49 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Intel_Pentium_III_Katmai.jpg
21:54:55 <AnMaster> that's one strange CPU mounting
21:56:03 <RodgerTheGreat> most PIIs were set up like that, and a lot of Sun's Ultra CPUs mounted the same way
21:56:17 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, err. I have a P3 that is normal ZIF mounting
21:56:21 <pikhq> Not was weird as the Slot 1 -> Socket something adaptors that you could use for Celerons...
21:57:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_III_on_motherboard.jpg ?
21:57:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm confused: informative appendix J says that section 6.2.6.1 says that reading from a union member you didn't last store into is unspecified
21:57:52 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1
21:58:03 <ais523> but I can't see a statement to that effect anywhere in section 6.2.6.1
21:58:22 <AnMaster> 6.2.6 Representations of types
21:58:28 <AnMaster> are we talking about the same one this time?
21:58:51 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
21:59:34 <AnMaster> 7 When a value is stored in a member of an object of union type, the bytes of the object
21:59:34 <AnMaster> representation that do not correspond to that member but do correspond to other members
22:00:12 <ais523> AnMaster: no, not that
22:00:19 <ais523> that's mentioned elsewhere in appendix J
22:00:24 <AnMaster> ais523, then what does the quoted bit imply
22:00:36 <ais523> it means, that say you have a union of a short and a long
22:00:45 <ais523> then if you assign to the short, the bits of the long you didn't assign to end up unspecified
22:00:56 <ais523> which makes sense I suppose
22:01:06 <ais523> although leaving them the same would be more useful
22:01:15 <fizzie> The slot-mountable Pentiums always reminded me of NES game carts.
22:01:40 <AnMaster> ais523, say you can only write a 16 bits at once
22:02:27 <ais523> that's why it's done that way
22:02:42 <ais523> the C standard is designed to allow implementations to be close to the hardware if they want to
22:02:45 <AnMaster> ais523, or maybe reading/writing word size is faster, even if you can still do individual bytes
22:02:51 <ais523> and do to weird high-level stuff too, if they want to
22:03:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you wrote a backend for it. Surely you know!
22:04:15 <ais523> you don't need to understand all of gcc in order to write bits of it
22:04:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: A backend just does RTL->machine code translation.
22:05:03 <pikhq> RTL doesn't tell you much about how it does C.
22:05:22 <ais523> pikhq: actually, the backend generates the RTL too
22:05:45 <ais523> gcc's architecture is interesting
22:05:51 <ais523> you create templates that it converts standard opcodes into
22:05:56 <ais523> like addition, for instance
22:06:07 <ais523> it then pattern-matches the templates you generated to create asm
22:06:21 <ais523> but the RTL itself is modified in between
22:06:23 <AnMaster> ais523, what about peep hole optimising
22:06:30 <ais523> that's done on the RTL, normally
22:06:35 <ais523> although you can do it on the asm if you really want to
22:06:40 <AnMaster> yes and it is partly arch specific
22:07:00 <AnMaster> <ais523> but the RTL itself is modified in between <-- by what
22:07:14 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc, of course
22:07:17 <ais523> the less backendy bits
22:07:26 <ais523> register allocation, mostly
22:07:30 <ais523> and also various optimisations
22:07:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:07:47 <AnMaster> ais523, why was tha backend involved before that
22:08:13 <ais523> AnMaster: because it generates the sort of RTL that works well on the target platform
22:08:38 <ais523> the idea is that say, if you're faster at bitshifts than addition
22:08:45 <ais523> you'll generate a bitshift for x+X
22:08:46 <AnMaster> ais523, so that is where you turn mov 0,%eax into xor %eax,%eax ?
22:08:56 <ais523> AnMaster: no! the mov 0,%eax is never generated
22:09:27 <ais523> well, the conversion works differently at different optimisation levels, it's a mess
22:09:38 <ais523> and the x86 code is /especially/ a mess
22:09:53 <ais523> presumably they couldn't be bothered to add a new constraint letter for "compile-time constant zero"
22:10:02 <fizzie> Since sourcefurge's been talked about here occasionally, and not everyone has a project there I guess, here's a bit of information that was emailed today: "Discussion Forums will be replaced by phpBB."
22:10:11 <ais523> yes, that was mentioned earlier
22:10:14 <AnMaster> <ais523> presumably they couldn't be bothered to add a new constraint letter for "compile-time constant zero" <-- what has this got to do with the inline asm
22:10:24 <AnMaster> or do they have that elsewhere too
22:10:37 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc is very monolithic, OK, different parts affect other different parts
22:10:45 <ais523> the constraint letters are used by the pattern-matcher
22:11:00 <AnMaster> ais523, are they the same as the inline asm constraint letters?
22:11:01 <ais523> and also by inline asm
22:11:11 <AnMaster> yeah then I know what you are talking about
22:11:22 <ais523> the inline asm isn't their main use
22:11:27 <ais523> they're /all over the place/ in the actual backend
22:11:49 <ais523> and many of the letters, such as "compile-time constant zero", are not particularly useful in inline asm
22:11:56 <AnMaster> ais523, they are a pain figuring out if you meant m, =m =&m or whatever
22:11:59 <ais523> because if you know that something's a constant zero, why did you not just write a zero in your code
22:12:14 <ais523> I think so, but I don't deal with the inline asm syntax all that much
22:12:23 <ais523> the punctuation marks are different there, even though the letters are the same
22:14:26 <AnMaster> ais523, btw why is it unspecified if char is signed or unsigned without qualifier
22:14:34 <AnMaster> since apart from that all are signed
22:14:44 <ais523> AnMaster: inconsistency between past implementations
22:14:48 <ais523> C89 modeled existing practice
22:15:02 <AnMaster> ais523, but all did signed for int?
22:15:03 <ais523> the idea in writing C89 was that as many existing programs as possible should be C89-compatible without changes
22:15:07 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently so
22:15:32 <AnMaster> how much shorter would C99 become if you removed all such old compat...
22:16:44 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, it is interesting that gcc shuts up about type punning by pointer if you cast the pointer to void in between
22:17:07 <ais523> AnMaster: doing something extra-verbosely is normally taken by compilers as a hint to shut up
22:17:13 <ais523> like putting double-parens around an assignment
22:17:35 <AnMaster> ((const v4sf*)(const void*)&my_const_v4si);
22:17:43 <ais523> because it shows that you meant it deliberately
22:17:47 <AnMaster> well I missed one pair of parantheses there
22:17:54 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I did in that case
22:18:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and I deference it just outside
22:18:39 <AnMaster> __builtin_ia32_movntps(((float*)(void*)&cfun_static_space) + i*4,
22:18:39 <AnMaster> *((const v4sf*)(const void*)&fspace_vector_init));
22:19:41 <AnMaster> ais523, takes quite a bit to make it shut up
22:22:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:24:06 <AnMaster> ais523, pattern matching seems like the best way to implement most compilers to me
22:24:20 <AnMaster> makes it easy to do in a lot of the cases
22:24:36 <ehird> pentium 3 mounting is fun
22:24:40 <ehird> because it's rather silly
22:24:45 <ehird> i mean, why a slot?
22:24:52 <AnMaster> ehird, because not all p3 had that
22:25:10 <AnMaster> ehird, P2 did have the same thing as the katmais iirc
22:25:12 <ehird> http://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=amd_hd4770&image=amd_rv740_slide3_lrg World's most advanced graphics manufacturing process, revolving around terrible kerning.
22:25:20 <ehird> Surely AMD could do better than that.
22:26:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, even I notice the issues with the I in the second entry
22:26:22 <fizzie> It would be nice if they could spell "semiconductor".
22:26:47 <pikhq> Such terrible kerning.
22:26:50 <ehird> It's the announcement of the 4770.
22:26:56 <ehird> Well, one page of it.
22:26:59 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:27:13 <AnMaster> ehird, only upper case "I" seems affected
22:27:16 <ehird> It's appealing to the mainstream market it's aimed at, clearly.
22:27:28 <ehird> AnMaster: the whole kerning is pretty terrible but the uppercase I is the most noticable
22:27:35 <ais523> that isn't even a kerning fail
22:27:44 <ais523> that's just having the letter I far too wide
22:27:44 <ehird> ais523: it's kerning
22:27:58 <ais523> ehird: kerning's to do with combinations of two letters
22:28:52 <ehird> but maybe pedantically it's not
22:29:16 <ehird> kerning = the changing of letter spacing based on the text instead of a constant tracking, IMO
22:29:23 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kerning.png
22:29:34 <pikhq> If there was good kerning, it would be able to get rid of that extra space.
22:29:40 <pikhq> So, bad kerning *and* font design.
22:29:47 <ehird> I think the font is verdana
22:29:52 <ehird> which doesn't have a fucked up uppercase I
22:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1
22:30:05 <ehird> even so - using verdana in a product announcement?
22:30:09 <ehird> who _designed_ this shit?
22:30:22 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I'm of the opinion it's rather silly
22:30:26 <ehird> sockets look nicer :P
22:30:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adapter_slot1-socket.jpg
22:30:46 <ehird> is it a socket→slot adapter?
22:30:49 <ais523> it doesn't seem to mess up lowercase i...
22:31:02 <fizzie> I like it, again because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_II_front.jpg looks like a game cartridge.
22:31:13 <ehird> fizzie: oh, it looks nice, and I agree
22:31:20 <ehird> I just don't think it's a particularly good way to do a processor
22:31:21 <fizzie> It's like it's calling me to blow on the contacts before I stick it in.
22:31:23 <ehird> for instance, what about heatsinks and fans?
22:31:35 <ehird> you can't really do much when it's all encased in a slot
22:31:38 <FireFly> Slot_1 made me think of the DS
22:31:52 <ehird> AnMaster: when game catridges lied around
22:32:01 <ehird> so you blew at the contacts before putting them in
22:32:03 <ehird> otherwise you'd get glitches
22:32:13 <AnMaster> not blow away in a destructive way
22:32:16 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think he meant he performed oral sex on game cartridges
22:32:20 <ehird> dammit, you ruined my joke with timing
22:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant as in "blow up"
22:33:16 <AnMaster> anyway why are the contacts hidden on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_II_front.jpg
22:34:20 <AnMaster> ehird, the contacts doesn't stick out
22:34:41 <FireFly> Probably to protect against damage/dust/stuff?
22:34:46 <ehird> AnMaster: most game slots are like that
22:34:47 <fizzie> That's exactly what makes it look like a game cartridge.
22:35:02 <AnMaster> what about the holes on CF cards
22:35:12 <AnMaster> you don't need to blow stuff clean there usually?
22:35:19 <AnMaster> maybe because they are so small
22:36:12 <AnMaster> what is the holgram thingy there for
22:36:33 <ehird> AnMaster: not a hologam
22:36:36 <ehird> it's a diagram of the chip
22:36:44 <ehird> but yes, for kewlness
22:36:53 <AnMaster> read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1
22:36:59 <ehird> AnMaster: like this one for the nehalem: http://images.apple.com/macpro/images/overview_features_processor20090303.png
22:37:03 <ehird> well, it may be a hologram
22:37:08 <ehird> but it has the design of the chip on it
22:37:12 <FireFly> Ooh, there's yet another SD standard, after SDHC?
22:37:23 <ehird> FireFly: exciting!
22:37:34 <ehird> The Secure Digital Extended Capacity (SDXC) format was unveiled at CES 2009. The maximum capacity defined for SDXC cards is 2 TB (2048 GB). SDHC cards also have a maximum capacity of 2 TB based on the card data structures, but this is artificially limited to 32 GB by the SD 2.0 document.
22:37:42 <AnMaster> FireFly, isn't it closed spec?
22:38:13 <pikhq> Ah, Compact Flash.
22:38:23 <fizzie> There might be some sort of official reason along the lines of assuring you that you're getting the a real processor and not just some old dusty pentium some counterfeiter's done a plastic slot case for. Maybe.
22:38:24 <ehird> I prefer USB drives :-P
22:38:25 <AnMaster> most high end cameras seem to prefer CF
22:38:27 <pikhq> FireFly: Compact Flash is really the better format. ;)
22:38:28 <FireFly> stuff = Camera, DS, other stuff
22:38:36 <ehird> Since they come up to 128GB-that-you-can-actually-use
22:38:51 <fizzie> CF is the physically-larger format, though.
22:38:55 <FireFly> Maybe, but not the stuff I use :P
22:38:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean "can actually use"?
22:39:03 <ehird> AnMaster: " SDHC cards also have a maximum capacity of 2 TB based on the card data structures, but this is artificially limited to 32 GB by the SD 2.0 document."
22:39:10 <pikhq> fizzie: You can get freaking hard drives in CF format, though.
22:39:10 <ehird> You can only use 32GB of SDcard.
22:39:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is still way smaller than the camera battery
22:39:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's uncomfortably large for something like a mobile phone, though. (Which -- surprise, surprise -- might be why no mobile phones use it.)
22:39:47 <AnMaster> ehird, SD sure. But who cares about SD
22:39:57 <FireFly> I want a really huge SD micro card :(
22:40:03 <ehird> AnMaster: People with a camera that isn't high-end.
22:40:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, I have no idea why I would want it in a phone
22:40:28 <AnMaster> ehird, um my mobile uses some other card
22:40:34 <ehird> Your mobile, perhaps.
22:41:01 <AnMaster> but I don't have a card for it
22:41:05 <pikhq> ehird: Currently, CF is only up to about 100GB. The limit, though is something like petabytes...
22:41:19 <AnMaster> the built in 30 MB is enough for the address book
22:41:46 <FireFly> MicroSDs are quite extremely small, thought
22:41:48 <fizzie> MicroSD might be the most common mobile phone thing nowadays; Nokia had a lot of (or at least some) MMC using models at some point, though.
22:42:10 <FireFly> I mean, I'm surprised how you can fit 8 gig in something as thin as a nail
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22:42:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, pretty sure it is higher than most though
22:43:05 <fizzie> What's amusing is that they still show CF card speeds in "Nx", where N is the 150kbps audio-CD data rate.
22:43:14 <pikhq> Future revisions will implement SATA.
22:43:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, so new cards won't work on my current camera?
22:44:01 <pikhq> It will be a different, similar format.
22:44:38 <pikhq> CFast will use a standard SATA data connector and a slightly different power connector.
22:44:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, that will be quite a large connector
22:45:29 <pikhq> I'd expect a much smaller power connector.
22:45:40 <fizzie> That's the interface speed, though. I don't think I've seen advertised speed more than something like "300x", which would mean 45Mbps.
22:46:01 <pikhq> fizzie: That's because it's Flash.
22:46:20 <pikhq> A microdrive can probably hit faster speeds.
22:46:45 <AnMaster> I thought flash was faster than harddrives?
22:46:47 <fizzie> They have that smaller "microsata" connector (not sure about standardization status there), wonder why not use that in some SATA-based CF-y thing.
22:46:48 <pikhq> Or maybe I'm being dumb.
22:46:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, SSDs are.
22:47:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: An SSD is, flash memory is not generally.
22:47:17 <AnMaster> ehird, aren't those basically the same but done as harddrives instead of flash cards?
22:47:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really.
22:47:52 <ehird> I'm not too certain; ask pikhq.
22:48:24 <fizzie> More flash chips, for one thing.
22:48:35 <fizzie> You can write to/read from multiple in parallel.
22:48:53 <pikhq> They use smaller, faster chips.
22:50:15 <pikhq> Flash memory with large capacity stores more than one bit in each flash cell.
22:50:27 <pikhq> This gets a lot of storage, but is slower.
22:50:44 <ehird> pikhq: Nope, actually.
22:50:49 <ehird> the X25-M is about as performant as the X25-E.
22:50:51 <ehird> Sometimes even moreso.
22:51:02 <ehird> iirc, if you do a fuckton of sequential reads/writes it can be faster, but not by much
22:53:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm it should be safe to open the case of a SSD right (while it is definitely unsafe to do that in case of a harddrive!)
22:53:54 <pikhq> A hard drive is still somewhat faster for sequential operations, and a hard drive is much, much faster for small writes.
22:54:10 <ehird> Anand did that his SSD reviews.
22:54:18 <ehird> 's just flash memory + a controller.
22:54:29 <ehird> Anand Lal Shimpi of anandtech.com
22:54:32 <pikhq> (hard drive doesn't have to seek for the first, and for the second, the hard drive doesn't have to do 1MB-granularity writes)
22:54:35 <ehird> The author of the ever-helpful SSD Anthology
22:54:52 <ehird> 22:53 pikhq: A hard drive is still somewhat faster for sequential operations, and a hard drive is much, much faster for small writes.
22:55:02 <ehird> the X25-M is faster than harddrives in every case.
22:55:09 <ehird> For sequential reads and writes, for random reads and writes.
22:55:16 <ehird> It's OPTIMIZED for tiny writes, chrissake!
22:55:24 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3531
22:55:33 <ehird> read the 31 pages or just trust me
22:55:39 <ehird> that is independent
22:55:44 <ehird> no ties to Intel or anything
22:56:00 <ehird> or buy an ssd and try it yourself
22:56:03 <pikhq> Is the X25-M Flash memory or battery-backed RAM?
22:56:06 <ehird> pikhq: flash memory
22:56:12 <ehird> there's a reason it's recommended as a disk drive:
22:56:16 <ehird> it's really really fast on <4KB random write
22:56:26 <ehird> (and everything else, but especially so)
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22:57:50 <pikhq> ehird: ... That X25-M is slower for sequential writes.
22:58:06 <pikhq> And by "small writes", I should've said "for a single small write at a time".
22:58:25 <ehird> for random reads/writes, an SSD is definitely way faster
22:58:39 <pikhq> Obviously, if you're doing more than one at a time, the SSD is guaranteed to be faster.
22:58:49 <ehird> pikhq: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18640.png
22:58:56 <ehird> The x25-E is faster there
22:59:00 <ehird> Which is still an SSD
22:59:24 <ehird> so it's MLC that does that
22:59:30 <ehird> still, you don't do sequential writes much on an OS drive
22:59:39 <ehird> and the sequential read performance is still great: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18639.png
22:59:47 <ehird> and the random read/write performance blows everything else out of the water
22:59:49 <pikhq> Okay, the X25-E is just stunning.
23:00:07 <ehird> so you get about 30MB/sec slower than a 5400rpm HD with an X25-M when doing the rare operation of big sequential writes
23:00:16 <ehird> that's not really a big deal at all
23:00:37 <ehird> since it's a rare operation on an OS drive, and not actually all that much slower than HDs
23:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: sequential WRIT
23:00:44 * pikhq does sequential writes somewhat often. :p
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23:01:01 <ehird> pikhq: You do a bajillion random writes every time you load a page in your browser.
23:01:14 <ehird> And a bajillion random reads when you start a program.
23:01:30 <ehird> Large sequential writes are stunningly rare in comparison to everything else an OS drive does.
23:01:42 <fizzie> I would think the whole cache thing would mitigate the write issues somewhat, especially given that you're likely to have 6 gigabytes of memory free for caching data.
23:01:50 <fizzie> It's not like firefox's going to sync() after each write.
23:01:52 <pikhq> Why the fucking hell would a browser do random writes to your hard drive?
23:01:56 <ehird> pikhq: Dude. Cache.
23:02:04 <ehird> pikhq: Look at firefox sometime.
23:02:10 <ais523> fizzie: actually, a bug in firefox 3 rc meant it /did/, on Linux
23:02:11 <ehird> It does a ridiculous amounts of writes per page loaded.
23:02:13 <pikhq> Browsers tend to keep cache in RAM and then later commit it to disk.
23:02:14 <ehird> ais523: he was joking
23:02:30 <pikhq> The random reads, though, is a good point.
23:02:38 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, if you're seriously arguing that an HD is faster than an SSD for OS drives
23:02:44 <ehird> go buy an SSD, and pop it in your machine, and copy your OS over.
23:02:52 <ehird> and then weep at the performance ;-)
23:03:00 <ehird> pikhq: you seemed to be implying it
23:03:00 <pikhq> I'm just saying that an SSD isn't better in all cases.
23:03:13 <ehird> It's not better when you're doing large sequential writes and totally need max speed on them.
23:03:14 <pikhq> And I stand corrected with that X25-E.
23:03:20 <ehird> Which is terribly rare, to be honest.
23:03:27 <pikhq> That's just stunning.
23:03:35 <ehird> pikhq: Yes; but the X25-E is expensive. 64GB max space, for the cost of the 160GB M one.
23:03:46 <ehird> And the M beats it slightly on the more conventional operations quite a bit.
23:03:50 <pikhq> Eh, not worth it yet, but it will be.
23:04:01 <ehird> Nah; MLC is the way forward.
23:04:05 <pikhq> For now, I'll content myself with cheap magnetic disks.
23:04:08 <ehird> Except in enterprise server environments.
23:04:11 <ehird> Which is the target market of the _E.
23:04:33 <ehird> pikhq: Have fun with that; I'll be attempting to snap my fingers fast enough to measure the opening speed of applications.
23:05:00 <fizzie> I don't really see how the opening speed of applications is relevant at all, but I guess that might be just my peculiar use case.
23:05:09 <pikhq> ehird: I'll be holding onto my money.
23:05:21 <ehird> fizzie: Well, it's not; let's say operating speed of applications.
23:05:23 <ehird> But that's so vague.
23:05:41 <pikhq> "And this stack of bills went towards my education instead..."
23:05:48 <ehird> pikhq: I'll be spending thousands on every other part of my machine and thus making the reasonable decision for a high-end assembly :-P
23:06:03 <pikhq> ehird: Well, sure, if you're spending thousands.
23:06:21 <pikhq> Get a single SSD and a bunch of cheap disks for bulk storage.
23:06:22 <ehird> 'snot my fault "hardware is cheap" only applies relatively.
23:06:32 <pikhq> (or if you're spending tens of thousands, bunch of pricy SSDs)
23:06:38 <ehird> pikhq: Single SSD on / + single 2TB disk on /home/ehird/media.
23:06:55 <pikhq> ehird: That's a high-end setup there.
23:07:14 <ehird> pikhq: a 2TB 7.5k RPM drive actually only costs around ~$170
23:07:23 <ehird> which is just a little more than a 1TB drive
23:07:41 <ehird> 1TB drives are about $130
23:07:42 <pikhq> 1TB drives are under a hundred.
23:07:43 <fizzie> I don't actually think the operating speed of applications is relevant for me either, since I don't do much waiting; I guess I could be mildly pleased with faster compilation times, though.
23:07:48 <ehird> Under a hundred? Where?
23:08:03 <ehird> fizzie: Well, if you're totally satisfied with performance, obviously increasing it isn't going to satisfy you.
23:08:22 <pikhq> fizzie: Compilation is not very disk-bound, though.
23:08:28 <Deewiant> Over here 1TB is around 100 €, 1.5TB is around 130-140 €, 2TB is around 300 €
23:08:32 <ehird> fizzie: An SSD is about general snappiness.
23:08:54 <AnMaster> ehird, matters for boot mostly
23:08:57 <ehird> pikhq: OK, cheapest 1TB drive on newegg is $79.99
23:09:00 <ehird> so I stand corrected
23:09:03 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it matters for everything
23:09:13 <AnMaster> ehird, once system is up I tend to use the same running set of apps all the time
23:09:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: 81.90 eur ($112 approx.) seems to be the cheapest 1TB drive in verkkokauppa.com. But Finland's not a cheap place for hardware. :/
23:09:25 <ehird> it's the difference between 0.5-1 second of waiting and 0.1 second of waiting
23:09:28 <ehird> which is huge, psychologically
23:09:34 <Deewiant> verkkokauppa.com is what I was looking at, too
23:09:39 <pikhq> So, that $170 2TB drive is more than twice the cost of a 1TB drive. ;)
23:09:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's the de-facto standard.
23:09:51 <ehird> pikhq: a cheap one.
23:09:57 <Deewiant> And that 81.9 € one is 5400 RPM
23:09:58 <ehird> $130 seems to be more common
23:10:17 <Deewiant> And yeah, getting hardware in Finland sucks.
23:10:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: The 82.90 is 7200 RPM.
23:10:56 <Deewiant> Getting hardware in continental Europe sucks in general.
23:11:06 <ehird> Deewiant: It seems like buying overseas and paying the shipping could be cheaper for finns.
23:11:13 <fizzie> They do advertise a lower power usage for the 5400 RPM model.
23:11:31 <Deewiant> ehird: Most US stores seem to have a shipping model of "California and Wyoming" or whatever
23:11:51 <ehird> I'm annoyed that I can't use the nice Nexus Value 430W psu for my machine; maybe I'll get one of those "10 watts less!" super-green harddrives to ease my soul!
23:11:56 <Deewiant> They don't even bother to state on their pages that they ship to the US only, it's so obvious :-P
23:12:03 <fizzie> There's also the "whole import tax and other stuff" thing for outside-EU ordering.
23:12:11 <ehird> The UK seems to have okay prices on tech.
23:12:21 <ehird> And shipping probably wouldn't be a huge problem.
23:12:25 <Deewiant> For hardware, US > UK > Japan >> Germany > the rest
23:12:35 <ehird> The US just rocks because of newegg.
23:12:35 <Deewiant> Not sure if China should be there somewhere.
23:12:43 <ehird> God, I wish they shipped to the UK.
23:12:45 <fizzie> The Atom box and assorted hardware came from UK, since it's EU-internal.
23:12:52 <ehird> Deewiant: Japan > UK; we just have a few okay sites.
23:12:56 <ehird> Japan has *everything*.
23:13:14 <Deewiant> Well, whatever. There's still that >> there.
23:13:16 <ehird> Scythe's website is so unprofessional. "6Heat Pieps"
23:13:45 <Deewiant> The problem isn't shipping costs; I'd gladly pay shipping costs if there were any store that actually shipped what I wanted to Europe
23:13:56 <pikhq> Deewiant: China's probably cheaper, because of insanely crappy knock-offs.
23:14:10 <Deewiant> Price wasn't the only thing I was considering
23:14:23 <Deewiant> If the only stuff available is crappy knock-offs then that's not too good either :-P
23:20:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's the difference between 0.5-1 second of waiting and 0.1 second of waiting
23:20:46 <ehird> For operations to complete.
23:20:48 <AnMaster> ehird, most of the stuff is in page cache early on for me
23:21:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what specific operations. Most stuff I do is either CPU bound, memory bound, or just very harddrive trashing (would wear out a flash drive soon)
23:22:12 <ehird> i challenge you to wear out an SSD quickly
23:22:43 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. Use it as swap on a a system with 128 MB RAM
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23:23:23 <ehird> Yes, because SSDs are the least reliable things ever and break with 3 seconds of use.
23:23:53 <AnMaster> um. 3 seconds... is that how you define quickly?
23:24:03 <AnMaster> I define quickly to "within two years"
23:24:09 <ehird> Please look up "hyperbole".
23:24:12 <pikhq> while true;dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda;done
23:24:21 <ehird> You think they use *IDE*?
23:24:52 <pikhq> Ah, right. Thinko.
23:25:00 <ehird> AnMaster: er, for IDE...
23:25:01 <fizzie> Well, that's up to you; certainly the old PATA stuff is still in the kernel.
23:25:06 <pikhq> I should know that, I've got /dev/sd* for IDE and SATA here.
23:25:15 <pikhq> (though to be fair,
23:25:23 <pikhq> I just use /dev/mapper)
23:25:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: When I last bothered to look, quite a lot of the PATA drivers on the libata combined-SATA-and-PATA side were marked as EXPERIMENTAL.
23:26:04 <fizzie> That was quite a while ago, though.
23:26:15 <pikhq> fizzie: There's the general-purpose PATA driver. :p
23:26:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, last I read most worked fine even thought they were marked like that
23:27:12 <fizzie> The Atom box has the CF card adapter in the PATA bus (speed's not an issue) and it's /dev/sda there, because CONFIG_ATA_PIIX wasn't marked experimental any longer.
23:27:44 <fizzie> Quite a lot of the experimental markings have gone away. But the heading still reads "Serial ATA (prod) and Parallel ATA (experimental) drivers".
23:28:44 <fizzie> On this desktop I just twiddled the bios bit to turn the SATA controller to AHCI mode, and forgot about PATA support; I don't have any hardware in the bus anyway. Truly a box of the future, even if it's some years old.
23:28:52 <pikhq> I think it's going to be marked that way until they can remove the old PATA stuff.
23:29:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: SATA for that too.
23:30:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh why. surely the DVD is slower than SATA
23:30:30 <fizzie> The cable is smaller, blocks airflow even less than rounded IDE cables. :p
23:31:03 <fizzie> I did mention the drive ("TSSTcorpCD/DVDW SH-S183A") but admittedly the from the name it's not obvious which interface it has.
23:31:21 <AnMaster> ehird, Pasta with Swedish meatballs
23:31:31 <psygnisfive> but my grandfather makes pasta and its so bad when he does it, so its completely ruined pasta for me.
23:31:36 <ehird> I'd think psygnisfive's tastes would be more pasta with Swedish balls...
23:31:55 <AnMaster> ehird, especially when my grandmother makes the meatballs
23:32:02 <ehird> psygnisfive: That's not what I meant.
23:32:03 <psygnisfive> anmaster: ikea sells swedish food and i love it.
23:32:06 <ehird> It was a pun on your gayness, you see.
23:32:14 <fizzie> fi:pata equals something like en:stew (as in the food class).
23:32:16 <ehird> I'm glad we're all aware.
23:32:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, IKEA food is horrible
23:32:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: You have a gaycore in your body, which transmits gayity to the world.
23:32:38 <psygnisfive> anmaster: im sure it is, but i dont mean the food they prepare
23:32:47 <ehird> It also provides alternate power in case your heart stops beating.
23:32:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, they don't sell that here
23:33:13 <psygnisfive> like that yummy chocolate-coated hard caramel candy
23:33:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: Of course not; it'd be like selling ice to an eskimo.
23:33:18 <ehird> AnMaster: duh; you guys can get it in a food store
23:33:26 <ehird> it's curios for the foreigners
23:33:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you can get stuff from all over the world in the food shop
23:33:39 <fizzie> IKEA does sell some packaged food supplies here in Finland, though they aren't exactly... exotic.
23:33:48 <ehird> AnMaster: well sure, but not with swedish pacakging and the like
23:33:51 <fizzie> It's just "Daim" here. Do they add an o in your place? :p
23:34:09 <ehird> AnMaster: does it have chinese packaging?
23:34:09 <AnMaster> and other countries close to it
23:34:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what does the packaging look like then at IKEA
23:34:25 <psygnisfive> also, you swedes have some sort of soft flatbread
23:34:31 <ehird> It looks very Swedish.
23:34:33 <fizzie> Infallopedia says Daim is called "Dime" in the UK/Ireland.
23:34:36 <ehird> Like Swedish food direct from sweden.
23:34:41 <ehird> That stuff is ick.
23:34:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, different letter remember
23:35:11 <ehird> Apparently it's Dajm in swedeland.
23:35:37 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:35:45 <ehird> YOU ALL HAVE TERRIBLE TASTES IN CHOCOLATE
23:35:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sweden, says WP.
23:35:52 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_Bar
23:36:01 <fizzie> "originated in Sweden in 1953"
23:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, my grandmother makes a very tasty cake with bits of dime in it
23:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster is actually behind all things swedish
23:37:07 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daim <-- "Dajm"...?
23:37:31 <AnMaster> "Daim är en sötsak tillverkad av Kraft Foods." <-- "Daim is a sweet produced by Kraft Foods."
23:37:39 <AnMaster> googling shows Kraft Foods is US based
23:37:42 <ehird> yeah en. says it's Dajm
23:37:47 <ehird> AnMaster: it originates from sweden
23:37:51 <ehird> but I guess a US company makes it now
23:37:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen both spellings in Sweden
23:37:56 <ehird> but you can buy it in UK Ikea anyway
23:38:06 <ehird> They are cyberspace americans.
23:38:47 <fizzie> As far as I can make out, Kraft Foods ate the whole Marabou thing, which was the Dajm-maker.
23:39:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Powerthirst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs That Munctional-Erlang thing parodies it.
23:39:11 <AnMaster> as in the think you measure in Newton
23:39:24 <ehird> psygnisfive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
23:39:24 <psygnisfive> is this a programming language that Mr Monk uses?
23:39:27 <ehird> Functional programming for men.
23:39:31 <ehird> AnMaster: That MUNCTIONAL Erlang video.
23:39:39 <ehird> It's a parody of the Powerthirst thing that psygnisfive was quoting.
23:39:41 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs
23:39:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not familiar with it
23:39:59 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs
23:40:04 <ehird> But you've seen the munctional one.
23:40:07 <ehird> You said it was old when I linked it.
23:40:15 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo anyway
23:40:28 <AnMaster> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
23:41:01 <ehird> AnMaster: First is powerthirst, second is munctional.
23:41:08 <ehird> First is the original, second is the erlang-based parody.
23:41:12 <psygnisfive> AND GET DEPORTED BACK TO KENYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:41:18 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yes. I've seen it too.
23:41:58 <ehird> I love the p-maps tour maps part.
23:43:18 <AnMaster> ehird, which is the original and which is the joke
23:43:23 <ehird> Powerthirst is original.
23:43:25 <ehird> But it's a joke too.
23:43:29 <ehird> The Munctional is the derivation.
23:43:33 <ehird> How many times have I said that?
23:43:39 <ehird> AnMaster: It's just. A joke.
23:43:46 <ehird> It's parodying energy drink adverts to a degree.
23:43:55 <psygnisfive> the MUNCTIONAL guy doesnt have the right amount of energy in his voice
23:44:26 <ehird> erlang is all about PARALLELISM.
23:44:39 <ehird> PARALLEL search on your PETABASE sorted IN PARALLEL.
23:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, actually sorting in parallel with mapreduce is fun
23:46:18 <AnMaster> I have done it in erlang of course
23:46:24 <ehird> "sorting in parallel" by itself is impossible
23:46:29 <ehird> well, quite impossibl
23:46:43 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not sorting every element in parallel
23:46:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: no, it's just map/reduce
23:47:14 <AnMaster> ehird, of course not fully, but reduces workload
23:47:23 <AnMaster> since combining two sorted lists is easy
23:47:36 <ehird> psygnisfive: maybe google map reduce
23:47:55 <AnMaster> actually. I was talking of google style map reduce
23:48:08 <AnMaster> rather than the two functions map and fold
23:49:00 <ehird> 23:48 AnMaster: rather than the two functions map and fold
23:49:08 <ehird> but there are non-google implementations of MapReduce
23:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is the alternative meaning I can think of
23:49:19 <psygnisfive> i watched a SICP class from berkeley and the prof demoed hadoop
23:49:23 <ehird> which is what I meant by "maybe google map reduce"
23:49:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. I'm using an implementation in erlang then
23:49:51 <AnMaster> but for sorting you of course need a sorting step
23:49:57 <AnMaster> I think that is what we were talking about
23:50:15 <ehird> map/reduce isn't really applicable to sorting
23:50:20 <AnMaster> other than that there wouldn't be any sort involved
23:50:25 <ehird> since it's hard to do a sort efficiently with reduce
23:50:29 <ehird> and map is rather useless for it
23:52:21 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not a pure reduce
23:52:59 <ehird> hmm with 85% tdp utilization for the cpu, 90% system load and no capacitor aging, http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine says my system will use 328 watts
23:53:07 <ehird> but tweaking a bit puts it over 430W
23:53:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I would suggest quickmergesort, merge sort to split load across the number of nodes/cpus. Then each node/cpu doing it's own sorting with heap sort
23:53:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving...").
23:53:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:53:17 <ehird> Deewiant: know anything like that?
23:55:37 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, I much prefer sorting networks
23:55:51 <AnMaster> a pitty it needs specialised hardware
23:57:42 <ehird> AnMaster: fpgas can raytrace at 5fps
23:58:09 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have any idea how hard raytracing is
23:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, where are GPUs that can do way better
23:58:13 <ehird> 5fps is basically a miracle
23:58:20 <ehird> you cannot do 5fps raytracing with gpus
23:58:39 <ehird> there's a reason there's a whole company based around their realtime-raytracing FPGAs
23:58:46 <ehird> and it's that it's way ahead of anything else
23:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen software ray tracing on a i686. Demo guy made it
23:59:08 <ehird> Yes, there are demos with it. But the scenes they render are simple, and the quality is not high.
23:59:20 <ehird> these do 5-10FPS for high-quality images
23:59:24 <ehird> as in, same quality as end result
23:59:37 <ehird> so, yes. FPGAs are fast.