00:00:02 <ehird> Nobody knows shit about Larrabee, so nothing can be predicted.
00:00:12 <ehird> I doubt it can raytrace in realtime.
00:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, there was some talk from intel about ray trace on it
00:00:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Even so.
00:00:37 <ehird> If Intel can do it at 10fps, fine.
00:00:40 <ehird> But an FPGA does it at 5.
00:00:45 <ehird> And that's still wicked performance.
00:01:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I want it done at 40 FPS or so
00:01:11 <ehird> AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHAHA
00:01:13 <ehird> buy a time machine
00:01:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it's impossible. This is not for using in games.
00:01:26 <ehird> This is for people working on e.g. car designs.
00:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But 5 FPS isn't "real time"
00:01:49 <ehird> AnMaster: It does in 5FPS what normally takes an hour.
00:01:51 <ehird> That is real time.
00:02:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and can't you do it in parallel
00:02:16 <ehird> Gee, that's lovely and meaningless. Let's throw "parallel" after every word.
00:02:32 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you can. So just throw more FPGAs at it
00:02:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, with a gigantic render farm, you could match the 5 FPS that a single FPGA handles.
00:02:48 <ehird> And you say that FPGAs are slow?
00:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um... I'm not comparing it to CPUs
00:03:10 <AnMaster> rather to an array of Nvidia Tesla
00:03:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Woo, for way more cost you can get way more power-hungry equipment that can match an FPGA.
00:03:34 <AnMaster> or whatever is their fastest one currently
00:03:35 <ehird> FPGAs are so slow.
00:03:49 <AnMaster> ehird, FPGAs are slow compared to ASIC
00:03:56 <ehird> But they are not slow.
00:04:02 <AnMaster> ehird, which is what I was comparing to
00:04:09 <ehird> 5FPS ray tracing is not slow by any stretch of the imagination. You could do sorting networks in FPGA just fine.
00:04:14 <AnMaster> why can't you then use SEVERAL FPGAs to speed it up
00:04:35 <AnMaster> maybe each rendering part of the frame
00:07:19 <AnMaster> ehird, is it this http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~fender/pdfs/raytrace_fender.pdf ?
00:07:26 <AnMaster> was the first hit I found for ray trace FPGA
00:07:33 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.caustic.com/
00:15:34 <ehird> fizzie: what res is that lg thing again?
00:18:59 <ehird> the monitor he uses
00:19:12 <ehird> that one is a different one
00:19:20 <ehird> i don't know and I don't care
00:29:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, mowing. As in "lawn mower".
00:31:03 <pikhq> Because it's a machine to mow.
00:31:05 <pikhq> ehird: I went out to mow.
00:31:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because what Edwin Budding decided to call it.
00:32:26 <pikhq> He invented the mower.
00:32:33 <ehird> Edwin Beard Budding (1795–1846), an engineer from Stroud, England, was the English inventor of the lawnmower (1830) and adjustable spanner. [1]
00:34:53 <pikhq> Before that, one could maintain maintain a lawn using a scythe...
00:47:09 <ehird> playing with CUDA will be fun
00:47:16 <ehird> i'll multiply matrices and stuff.
00:48:53 <fizzie> Bought it a bit before the unsurprising proliferation of 1920x1080 screens, which seems to have happened recently.
00:49:10 <fizzie> Oh, and 94 dpi if you want actual resolution-resolution.
00:49:11 <ehird> fizzie: Right. I assume 1080p media just gets two lil' bars?
00:49:23 <fizzie> Yes. I don't mind the bars.
00:49:27 <pikhq> Those probably aren't 1920x1080; most PC monitors are 16:10, not 16:9.
00:49:37 <ehird> Real 1080p monitors.
00:49:39 <fizzie> There are many 16:9 PC monitors nowadays.
00:49:45 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, they decided to have 16:9 monitors?
00:49:47 <ehird> But I don't like screens *that* wide.
00:49:49 <fizzie> It's the latest craze.
00:49:51 <ehird> pikhq: For the HD craze.
00:49:57 <pikhq> Good; seems dumb to have 16:10 monitors.
00:50:00 <ehird> But yeah, I want 1920x1200; it's the more monitor-y resolution. Games, etc.
00:50:10 <ehird> Sure, the ultra-wideness is nice for movies and shit.
00:50:14 <ehird> But for actual computing?
00:50:21 <ehird> 16:9 is gonna seriously cramp you vertically.
00:50:31 <pikhq> 16:10 was chosen because it had little black bars for 16:9 content.
00:50:45 <ehird> pikhq: I don't care how it was chosen; it works well.
00:51:08 <fizzie> I don't have a firm opinion on how much the difference actually matters; I rather like the fact that I could put my 1920x1200 screen next to the 1600x1200 4:3 screen, and get a nice not-non-rectangular desktop out of it.
00:51:44 <ehird> 16:9 is very good for movies and stuff. Very realistic and whatnot. But I like the additional vertical headroom— I deserve height, dammit.
00:53:06 <fizzie> I haven't actually tried any 1080 pixels high screens, so can't really comment. But I don't really grok what sort of real disadvantages the 16:10 ratio should have. (I haven't noticed any.)
00:53:36 <pikhq> fizzie: It's just got dumb reasoning is all.
00:53:53 <ehird> Who cares about reasoning? It's the results that matter
00:54:41 <RodgerTheGreat> wide screens are good for viewing multiple documents or terminals side-by-side
00:54:49 <fizzie> The ratios are so arbitrary anyway. I guess there's "native" 16:9 content (esp. direct-to-TV stuff), but do they actually squeeze released movie-movies to that ratio?
00:55:05 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: they're good for just about anything— but 16:9 is just too wide vs height to be usable IMO.
00:55:11 <ehird> for computer usage
00:55:22 <ehird> fizzie: Movies are 16:9, yes.
00:55:27 <ehird> On DVD and such that is.
00:55:56 <fizzie> That sounds strange; how do they do it, since the movies-in-a-movie-watching-place are something absurdly wide?
00:56:05 <ehird> Flagrantly cropping?
00:56:12 <fizzie> Two 136x90 terminals side-by-side is my most common content on the 1920x1200 screen.
00:56:50 <fizzie> For a single full-screen web browser it's a bit disturbingly wide.
00:56:51 <ehird> On this dinky "1050p" 16:10 20" screen I have three Safari windows with tabs, only one of which is really visible, and an IRC client in the lower-right corner.
00:56:55 <ehird> They are frolicking.
00:56:59 <ehird> And I refuse to use full-screen windows.
00:57:22 <fizzie> Well, I'm one of those tiling-wm crazies.
00:57:26 <pikhq> Funny, most movies I see on DVD and Blu-Ray are letter-boxed.
00:57:43 <pikhq> fizzie: There's also native (roughly) 16:9 movies.
00:57:53 <ehird> 00:57 pikhq: Funny, most movies I see on DVD and Blu-Ray are letter-boxed. ← really?
00:57:58 <pikhq> And also native 4:3 movies.
00:58:01 <ehird> I don't really buy digital content so I didn't know
00:58:15 * ehird checks a site of pirates to see the kind of resolutions
00:58:26 <pikhq> Original aspect ratio, bitch. ;)
00:58:51 <ehird> pikhq: Here's an odd one: 1824x992.
00:58:59 <fizzie> I own a single movie on DVD: Miyazaki's Totoro, bought for 6 eur from a sales bin, mostly because CAT BUS.
00:59:05 <ehird> It's a blu-ray rip, cropped since there were black bars on *all 4 sides*.
00:59:12 <pikhq> (4:3 was the original Academy ratio, then they moved to nearly 16:9, then they went wider. 16:9 was chosen by the ATSC group as a compromise).
00:59:13 <ehird> THE FAILURE, OH THE FAILURE.
01:00:05 <pikhq> Hmm. A whole 76 pixels on the sides and 88 pixels on the top and bottom.
01:00:24 <ehird> Here's an actual blue-ray rip.
01:00:41 <pikhq> ehird: Original aspect ratio.
01:00:47 <pikhq> Also, why the hell do modern HDTVs have overscanning?
01:00:54 <pikhq> Yes, that's right. Overscanning.
01:00:56 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, but, black bars, man. Even on 1080p screens.
01:01:23 <ehird> pikhq: Ahh, our shitty 21" CRT TV does overscanning badly, I think. The sides get chopped off the image.
01:01:28 <ehird> Least I think that's it.
01:01:38 <pikhq> An LCD 1080p TV will (in some cases) do minor upscaling so it can chop off a few pixels.
01:01:58 <pikhq> Upscaling a picture it can display *natively*.
01:02:19 <ehird> pikhq: 16:9 DVDs seem to be 704x480.
01:02:26 <ehird> That is uncomfortably low.
01:02:44 <pikhq> ehird: Uh... That's completely bizarre, given that that's the resolution of 4:3 DVDs.
01:02:51 <pikhq> 16:9 DVDs are supposed to be 720x480.
01:02:54 <pikhq> And yes, it is low.
01:03:30 <ehird> "Video: h.264 (4:3)"
01:03:40 <fizzie> 720x576 or something for PAL, one would assume.
01:03:58 <ehird> pikhq: These 704x480 widescreens appear to be anamorphic.
01:04:07 <ehird> Meaning...blackbarred.
01:04:20 <pikhq> ehird: As are 720x480 16:9 DVDs.
01:04:28 <pikhq> And 704x480 4:3 DVDs.
01:04:33 <pikhq> SDTV is anamorhpic.
01:04:38 <ehird> pikhq: 704x480 16:9 anamorphic means "stretched".
01:04:46 <ehird> As in, you have to squish it back to the proper 16:9 to play it.
01:04:54 <ehird> But it's stored as squashed/stretched 704x480.
01:04:57 <ehird> Why? No. Fucking. Clue!
01:05:10 <pikhq> You do realise that the same applies for 4:3, right?
01:05:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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01:05:20 <ehird> I HATE VIDEO FORMATS
01:05:22 <pikhq> SDTV with square pixels would be 640x480.
01:05:51 <pikhq> HDTV is an attempt to make it non-retarded.
01:05:56 <fizzie> Square pixels are so square.
01:05:58 <pikhq> ... And people are still being dumb with it.
01:06:23 <ehird> We should just have square fucking pixels with unsquashed video in the resolution and aspect ratio it's actually going to be played back on.
01:07:00 <pikhq> I'll give the DVD spec some slack, because it still has to deal with the standards set in the 50s.
01:07:44 <pikhq> But everything that's not SDTV? Come on, just use fucking square pixels and encode it in the right aspect ratio.
01:07:50 <pikhq> There is *no reason* to encode freaking black bars.
01:08:06 <ehird> pikhq: If I recall correctly, my father was present at the consortium-meeting-things that defined DVD.
01:08:11 <ehird> Representing some sort of company or another.
01:08:20 <ehird> So I will take my anger out on him. :-P
01:08:30 <pikhq> ehird: I wouldn't.
01:08:39 <ehird> He is clearly an agent of the devil.
01:08:49 <pikhq> The DVD has to deal with legacy formats.
01:09:27 <pikhq> 720x480 is the only time I will accept anything but square pixels in the right aspect ratio.
01:10:18 <fizzie> I seem to have a video file that has the resolution 660x362, but I think that's trying to match original 1.82 aspect ratio in the content, scaled down to some rather random number.
01:11:17 <ehird> fizzie: does mplayer automatically handel anamorphic shit?
01:11:29 <fizzie> As far as I know it does.
01:11:44 <fizzie> Assuming the container format is intelligent enough to encode the aspect ratio that it should be played at.
01:11:45 <pikhq> ehird: It's the first one to handle it properly.
01:11:59 <pikhq> It's the only one that handles it right on AVI.
01:12:03 <ehird> mplayer seems to be very good at "give me a file, I'll play it properly"
01:12:08 <pikhq> Well, other ffmpeg-based player might also do it right.
01:12:15 <pikhq> Yeah, that's what mplayer's great at.
01:12:30 <pikhq> It's also a rather good encoder, if you're willing to mess with the command line.
01:12:54 <fizzie> It seems less good at "five me an URL, I'll play it properly"; at least there's been a couple of strange asf/mms/whatever-streams only VLC could play for me.
01:13:34 <ehird> pikhq: you mean mencoder?
01:13:34 <pikhq> fizzie: You have to add the -playlist argument for those, I think.
01:13:44 <ehird> I've always wondered how to rip a DVD without reencoding it.
01:13:52 <ehird> As in, just gimme the damn data in the standard MPEG2 format!
01:14:11 <fizzie> "-oac copy -ovc copy" could be suitable mencoder magic.
01:14:41 <pikhq> ehird: mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.vob
01:14:48 <pikhq> Doesn't even remux it.
01:14:49 <ehird> pikhq: that's a .vob
01:14:52 <ehird> not an .mpeg thing
01:15:00 <ehird> I want an .mpeg :-P
01:15:05 <pikhq> That's the DVD on-disk format.
01:15:07 <ehird> But WITHOUT reconverting.
01:15:11 <ehird> Just stuff-it-into-the-container.
01:15:14 <pikhq> Technically, .mpeg would also be a valid extension.
01:15:21 <ehird> A .vob is a valid .mpeg?
01:15:33 <ehird> pikhq: is dumpstream fast?
01:15:35 <pikhq> A .vob is a MPEG transport stream.
01:15:36 <ehird> it would seem like it'd go in realtime
01:15:45 <ehird> also, I want a regular video-style .mpeg
01:15:48 <ehird> like downloaded from the interwebs
01:16:02 <pikhq> Dumpstream says "instead of playing it, dump that shit to disk as fast as you can."
01:16:15 <ehird> But what about .mpeggggg
01:16:18 <fizzie> The web says: "Program streams are used on DVD video discs and HD DVD video discs. The file extensions are VOB and EVO respectively. Blu-ray Discs use a transport stream (TS) format with an additional 4 byte time code added to the beginning of each TS packet."
01:16:31 <fizzie> And it claims that a .vob file is actually an MPEG-PS.
01:17:00 <fizzie> Not my area of expertise, though. I do know that the DVB broadcasts we get from digital TV are MPEG transport streams.
01:17:12 <ehird> "mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.mpeg dvd://1" might work then.
01:17:51 <fizzie> At least mplayer'll play the result. :p
01:17:55 <fizzie> Seriously have to sleeps now.
01:19:12 <pikhq> Erm, right. MPEG-PS, not TS.
01:19:38 <pikhq> Just aggreing with fizzie.
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01:30:15 <kerlo> Well, I guess I have to find this out at some point.
01:30:19 <kerlo> What do I do with a .cpp file?
01:33:09 <ehird> kerlo: You always surprise me with your lack of programming knowledge...
01:33:23 <ehird> how can you not know how to compile a .cpp file and yet own and administrate a virtual server?
01:35:00 <pikhq> kerlo: Windows guy?
01:35:03 <kerlo> ehird: by paying $25 a month and yet not having much experience.
01:35:37 * pikhq tosses kerlo a nickle for the blank media
01:35:38 <ehird> Uh oh, now we have to listen to a windows guy justify his choice
01:36:19 <pikhq> ehird: Almost as bad and archaic as hearing a SLS guy justify his choice.
01:36:31 <ehird> pikhq: No, no— Yggdrasil.
01:36:40 <ehird> Sgeo: softlanding linux system
01:36:42 <ehird> ancient linux distro
01:36:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: The original distro.
01:36:56 <ehird> "Yggdrasil was the first company to create a Live CD Linux distribution"
01:36:57 <pikhq> It's very fucking old.
01:37:10 <pikhq> By "old", I mean "Slackware is a *fork* of it".
01:37:11 <ehird> They charged for it
01:37:22 <ehird> linux boot cd in 1992
01:38:03 <kerlo> ehird: I believe that last time, I justified my choice because you asked me to.
01:38:12 <kerlo> So no, you don't have to listen to me justify my choice again.
01:38:17 <ehird> I don't have much of a memory
01:38:28 <ehird> kerlo: It was "Windows does everything I want", right?
01:38:30 <pikhq> kerlo: You still use Windows, so it can't have been a valid justification.
01:38:34 <ehird> Only the worst argument for using Windows ever.
01:38:47 <ehird> Actually, you listed... about 2 things Windows can't do that Linux could.
01:38:52 <ehird> Which makes it an even worse argument.
01:39:11 <kerlo> I think it was that.
01:39:40 <ehird> pikhq: Let's woe together about Windows users.
01:39:42 <ehird> Yes, woe is a verb.
01:40:40 <ehird> lament: let's woe.
01:41:29 <kerlo> Should I find this funny or be sympathetic?
01:41:38 <pikhq> kerlo: You should woe.
01:41:53 <ehird> kerlo: Woe at yourself.
01:42:04 <ehird> Then fix cause-of woe-from us.
01:42:53 * kerlo woes, and does not switch to Linux.
01:43:09 * pikhq beats kerlo with a real operating system.
01:43:16 <pikhq> Pick one, they're all more real than Windows.
01:43:25 <pikhq> Yes, including DOS.
01:43:46 * ehird punches kerlo and stomps on him. Drastic measures for (a) coloured people (as long as the colour isn't white), (b) immigrants and (c) Windows users.
01:44:02 <ehird> The scummery and villanry of modern society!
01:44:30 <ehird> Also, (d) Muslins. Death to fabric.
01:48:03 * Sgeo switched from Linux to Windows. What does that make me?
01:48:14 <ehird> Sgeo: Benjamin Button.
01:48:30 <ehird> pikhq: I prefer mine.
01:48:32 <kerlo> Sigh. I hate web sites where the password you have to use to log in is different from what you set your password to when you register.
01:49:08 <kerlo> I picked the password foo\bar. The account activation email told me my password was foo\\\\bar. My actual password ended up being foo\\bar.
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02:52:26 <Sgeo> http://icehot.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/humor-linux.jpg
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04:16:34 <coppro> I thought that was VLC?
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04:30:49 <Gracenotes> meh. mplayer's scaletempo has failed for me
04:31:22 <Gracenotes> compiling... different flags... repository needs updates... nonfree packages... o_o
04:31:54 <Gracenotes> so I can listen to audio and watch video at a rate I find more engaging
04:32:26 <Gracenotes> better to spend 30-something minutes on a lecture than an hour
04:33:18 <Gracenotes> for books on tape and video or audio lectures for computer science, not movies or anything.
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04:48:14 <Gracenotes> so I have to listen with the pitches screwed up, like a sixth or seventh up.
05:35:18 <Sgeo> Gracenotes, some MIDI players do what you want >.>
05:35:37 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood_, speeding it up and lowering the pitch in the opposite direction?
05:59:34 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood_, I'm assuming it's possible. Maybe it isn't without slowing things down
06:16:32 <Gracenotes> one can lower pitch by transposing one pitch to another
06:17:02 <Gracenotes> with MIDI files, this is very easy, since the internal representation is notes, not the sounds themselves
06:17:32 <Gracenotes> for wav/mp3/etc. there are various properties of sound you can exploit to do it...
06:18:03 <Gracenotes> obviously it's possible, since mplayer has a feature, just not here >:|
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06:27:54 <Gracenotes> afaik, you can either speedup+raise pitch or slow down+lower it. And you can calculate how much you raised/lowered the pitch mathematically and reverse that amount.
06:28:49 <Gracenotes> there is possibly an algorithm that combines these steps.. otherwise the quality might be lowered. I am not terribly familiar with sound science >_>
06:29:26 <Gracenotes> MIDI files are different entirely: instead of storing WAVs, they store discrete notes, noting exactly where they start and end and splitting them up into separate tracks
06:30:24 <Gracenotes> for example, a note might have the pitch C4. So to transpose it down an octave, just change it to C3, and likewise for all other notes.
06:31:25 <Gracenotes> or to speed up, just change the tempos used throughout the song accordingly.
06:31:37 <Gracenotes> which is an explicit variable, for tempo.
06:33:45 <Gracenotes> I know more than a few people who speed up lectures this way
06:34:22 <Gracenotes> are able to absorb content faster. It works for me too, but without the pitch correction it can get annoying.
06:42:44 <Gracenotes> I can't say I do entirely either. From a musical perspective at least (playing piano), pitch can be modeled nicely mathematically
06:50:18 <Sgeo> Should I try M*U*S*H?
06:55:09 <Slereah_> http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/wolfram-alpha.php
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07:38:13 <fizzie> Yes, you can do both the speed-up-without-pitch-changes and alter-pitch-without-tempo-changes operations to generic digital audio, though you're always going to get some artifacts.
07:41:16 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_timescale-pitch_modification seems to be a (rather variable-quality) article about it.
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08:05:22 <fizzie> Speaking of memory cards (though the discussion ended a long ago, I guess), it seems that they've started to make 16 GB MicroSD(HC) cards since the last time I looked (when they went up to 8). That's the crazy.
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09:21:35 -!- oklodok has set topic: international tub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
09:22:28 <fizzie> The international tub of esoteric language developers.
09:24:55 -!- oklodok has set topic: The international tub of esoteric language developers. Consider feasting on http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
09:25:17 <oklodok> most of my suffices are just english words
09:25:37 <oklodok> i also have other birds like kok
09:27:57 <oklodok> fok is a hawk, f and h are the same character in finnish, for some values of lying my ass off
09:38:07 <oklodok> i'm not nearly as good with birds as my subconscious, no idea.
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09:56:56 <oklodok> was the food you ate last bitter
09:57:17 * oerjan just finished a slice with strawberry jam, so no
09:57:36 <oklodok> ima eat like noodles and meat today.
09:57:47 * oerjan now starts on the liver paté
09:57:57 <oerjan> i don't consider that bitter either
10:00:32 <oerjan> oh noes we're a tub now
10:01:55 <oklodok> well would you rather be in a cub or a rub? perv.
10:02:32 <oklodok> shit, the ai wins me in two rounds.
10:03:02 <oklodok> and here i thought i was special
10:20:57 <Slereah> How would you like to rub-a-dub-dub in my tub
11:15:51 <AnMaster> oklodok, it wasn't bitter. It was butter (well, mostly bread, but that isn't as funny)
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13:31:29 <AnMaster> I wonder why lostking contains a loop around that at all
13:31:48 <ais523> hmm... isn't that a repeat-once loop?
13:31:57 <ais523> which is not really a loop at all
13:32:10 <ais523> it could be an artifact of the way BFBASIC works
13:32:41 <AnMaster> ais523, however see the index cell is set to a constant just above
13:32:52 <AnMaster> so in that case it is a "dead if, once"
13:32:55 <ais523> which is why the loop always iterates exactly once
13:33:29 <AnMaster> and getting rid of the loop bit in it will help a lot
13:35:53 <ais523> the Windows computer right in front of me, which I'm not logged onto
13:35:58 <ais523> is being logged into remotely by the admins
13:36:12 <ais523> and I saw them type their username, and a concealed password
13:36:14 <AnMaster> and why does it show up on the screen
13:36:22 <ais523> and it's not spyware; it's remote keyboard/mouse control, but legitimate
13:36:29 <ais523> because they installed the software to do that deliberately
13:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, wait... can you interact with it too?
13:36:41 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently so, I just moved the mouse a few pixels
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13:36:59 <ais523> they logged in on a non-admin account, I think
13:37:17 <ais523> but even if it was an admin account, I wouldn't want to get in trouble by grabbing control of the logged-in session
13:37:57 <ais523> blame Windows for not really implementing remote sessions with a GUI
13:38:15 <ais523> I imagine Windows admins would find the idea of ssh with X forwarding really alien
13:38:25 <ais523> even though it would be a much easier way to accomplish what they're trying
13:38:37 <ais523> hmm... the mouse pointer is teleporting, rather than moving smoothly
13:38:49 <ais523> so it's not a direct interface
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13:38:59 <AnMaster> ?TRACE({"STUPID PROGRAMMER^W^WREPEAT ONCE LOOP FOUND.",H}),
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13:42:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems that they loaded Excel, looked at the tools menu (presumably to verify a particular item was there), then logged off again
13:43:07 <ais523> well, not quite, they're at the logoff confirm screen atm
13:43:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that sounds extremely strange
13:47:45 <AnMaster> hm handling those dead repeat once/if loops had a large cascading effect on lostking
13:48:03 <AnMaster> from 74710 lines of output to 73376 lines.
13:48:08 <ais523> that's not really that large
13:48:22 <fizzie> Misread "^W^WREPEAT ONCE LOOP FOUND" as "WEAR HATS [something unintelligible]"
13:48:43 <AnMaster> ais523, but then the repeat loops are rather large
13:49:38 <ais523> as in, 719 isn't much smaller than 733
13:51:05 <AnMaster> next up is (if no IO, not deep and so on) flattern repeat loops. Polynom style.
13:51:20 <AnMaster> oh and being able to convert more types to repeat loops
13:51:46 <AnMaster> currently it only handles index_diff = {add,255}, not even {add,1}.
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15:59:01 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, did you see what I said about esotope-bfc being broken on linux?
15:59:17 <AnMaster> you can't give more than #!/path/to/program OneParameter
15:59:25 <AnMaster> so /usr/bin/env python -O didn't work
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16:13:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, are you able to detect some finite loops even when the constant isn't known btw?
16:13:54 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: first transform the loop into if (some_condition) while (1); actual_loop; and get rid of if(some_condition) ... codes later.
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16:14:47 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I mean, if you don't know constant loop can in general be either finite or infinite
16:14:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, see http://rafb.net/p/LeOL2E65.html
16:15:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I brute force tested it for all pairs {1..255,1..255} :P
16:15:45 <lifthrasiir> if the target cell is constant, esotope-bfc removes the redundant if statement; but that's all for now.
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16:16:26 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I can mark a loop like "input [add y to cell]" as finite now, if y is an odd number.
16:16:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, which means I can move IO nodes over it
16:17:05 <AnMaster> like, loop output_constant -> output_constant loop
16:17:31 <lifthrasiir> right, finite and pure (no-IO) loop is free to move
16:18:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and I track if loop has input and/or output (for some reason I decided to track them as two separate parameters thinking "might be useful to know it has input but no output", but I can't think of a reason for it any longer...)
16:20:33 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh and here is a really trivial checker for is finite/infinite, less elegant than your code. But I understand how it works.
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(Const, Diff) -> is_inf(Const, Diff, (Const + Diff) rem 256).
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(_Const, _Diff, 0) -> false;
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(Const, _Diff, Const) -> true;
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(Const, Diff, Cur) -> is_inf(Const, Diff, (Cur + Diff) rem 256).
16:22:30 <AnMaster> probably slow. but when testing I detected no major slow down. about half a second extra for lostking, and since I'm already taking around 40 seconds for it...
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18:03:25 <AnMaster> ais523, there? IIRC you wondered what optimisations were broken by treating [>>[[-]++]] as balanced for example?
18:03:35 <AnMaster> that specific one: probably none
18:04:21 <AnMaster> ais523, because "balance" for me means that I can simply move > ahead and offset the instruction
18:04:52 <AnMaster> turning >> [>+[>]++[[-]++]] into [(offset 2) >+[>]++[[-]++]] >> isn't valid
18:05:06 <ais523> AnMaster: [>[-]>[>]+[<]<[-]] is balanced
18:05:12 <ais523> but doesn't fit your balance optimisatoin
18:05:23 <AnMaster> where offset means that p+=1; p[0] turns into p[1] p+=1;
18:05:34 <ais523> and actually, in that case it is, because you do no I/O between the time the opimisation messes up and the infinite loop
18:06:13 <AnMaster> ais523, in general it breaks though. I managed to generate a test case where it ends up accessing p[-1] in that case due to shifting the "p+=" forward
18:06:53 <AnMaster> ais523, well a[-1] in fact. Out of bounds.
18:07:13 <AnMaster> +>+>+<<[>]>>>> ,[ <,[,.]>[-]+ [++>->>>>,[,]<<<<-<]< ,] ,.
18:07:28 <ais523> you probably need a different term than "balanced"
18:07:37 <AnMaster> the first bit is there only to make the "initial memory is all zero and use that knowledge" pass give up before
18:07:42 <AnMaster> so it is easier to see what happens
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18:08:44 <ais523> AnMaster: in [-]+[>[-]] the second loop isn't balanced, but it still has a known offset
18:08:55 <ais523> (although, of course, nobody would deliberately write that particular program like that)
18:09:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think even lostking contains that!
18:09:40 <ais523> I think that what you need for that optimisation is not that the current loop is balanced, but that all loops it contains are balanced
18:09:56 <ais523> even [>+] could be optimised with that optimisation
18:09:59 <AnMaster> in fact you could optimise lost king by running it through an optimiser and outputting it back to bf
18:10:01 <pikhq> LostKng is horrible, but hey, it's auto-generated.
18:10:13 <ais523> instead of p+=1; *p++; you could do p[1]++; p+=1;
18:10:23 <ais523> of course, you don't gain anything directly in such a short loop, but you might if it were more complicated
18:10:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: A dead-code elimination pass alone does wonders.
18:10:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I do that already inside the loop
18:10:40 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that optimisation has nothing to do with the loop being balanced or not
18:10:49 <ais523> just to do with the loops /inside/ that loop being balanced
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18:12:55 <AnMaster> ais523, my shifter pass, which is peephole style (operates on pairs of instructions), does "don't ever shift across unbalanced loops, shift pointer moves forward across everything else, don't two IO instructions across each other, when possible sort by offset"
18:13:10 <AnMaster> it also recurses into loops to try to shift internally in them
18:13:38 <AnMaster> getting rid of created >< and such is up to the combiner pass next time it runs.
18:13:39 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I don't think unbalanced loops with embedded infinite loops mess that algorithm up
18:13:52 <ais523> and that reminds me of gcc-bf, actually
18:14:01 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if it cleans up >< created as a result of that sort of thing
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18:14:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I have a almost-DSL for it
18:14:27 <AnMaster> ais523, more like you would make a DSL in scheme.
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18:15:07 <AnMaster> I did a table describing all possible combinations, then I seralised it into a function returning a set of actions given two instructions.
18:15:23 <ais523> err... you serialised a table into a function?
18:15:28 <ais523> I don't think that's what "serialised" means
18:15:37 <ais523> ehird: if you're here, please now laugh at either me or AnMaster
18:15:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't know a better word
18:16:02 <ais523> you could try the general "compiled", I suppose
18:16:14 <ais523> or "hardcoded", even, although that might be ambiguous
18:16:20 <ais523> or just the even more general "converted"
18:16:26 <AnMaster> anyway the function returns false | {true, nochange | TranslatorFunc} | {maybe, TranslatorOrFalseFunc}
18:16:44 <AnMaster> it just gets instruction names, no details like offsets and such
18:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and I hand compiled it I guess
18:17:06 <AnMaster> by trying to create a minimal set of rules
18:18:00 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/zosmmI54.html was the table. Haven't updated it after I added if/repeat/loop_inf
18:19:24 <AnMaster> and and example from the serialising:
18:19:26 <AnMaster> should_swap({_,_}, {mov, _}) -> false;
18:19:26 <AnMaster> %% Offset shouldn't change for out_const.
18:19:26 <AnMaster> should_swap({mov, _}, {out_const, _}) -> {true, nochange};
18:19:26 <AnMaster> should_swap({mov, _}, {_,_}) -> {true, fun shift_mov/2};
18:20:09 <AnMaster> where the second parameter is used for loops to say if they are finite or infinite (or unknown), if they contain IO and so on.
18:21:58 <AnMaster> ais523, you know that fingerprint specification file thing that cfunge uses?
18:22:04 <AnMaster> would you call that a DSL or not
18:22:11 <ais523> and not really, it's more a file format
18:22:22 <ais523> would you call PNG a domain-specific language?
18:22:45 <AnMaster> though not a plain text such then
18:22:58 <AnMaster> ais523, hm yeah you can't compute with it indeed
18:23:23 <ais523> it's more a markup system + a scripting language
18:23:28 <ais523> and JavaScript isn't very domain-specific
18:23:45 <ais523> as for whether XML's a language or not, that's probably flamewar-worthy, so I won't go into it
18:24:26 <AnMaster> you can't possibly disagree about XSLT being a DSL
18:24:49 <ais523> XSLT, I agree with you
18:26:02 <AnMaster> ok... this is strange how did an loop_inf end up with loop data saying it is unknown if it is finite or not...
18:28:43 <AnMaster> ais523, that [-]+[>[-]] ... Have there been much work on optimising unbalanced loops in BF before?
18:29:04 <ais523> although, I've been thinking about the problem a lot in relation to gcc-bf
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18:29:10 <ais523> where most of the loops are unbalanced
18:29:27 <ais523> the problem is to be able to demonstrate that the IP is known most of the time anyway
18:29:34 <AnMaster> like propagating "infinite loop" upwards for unbalanced loops that contain infinite that will always be run.
18:29:58 <AnMaster> though actual infinite loops I can only detect directly for balanced loops otherwise
18:31:00 <AnMaster> ais523, you could put a bound on [>] for example by building a tri-state map containing "known set to constant, possibly clobbered, unknown"
18:31:24 <AnMaster> example: +>+>+><<<[>] can be solves that way
18:31:47 <AnMaster> that is assuming at start of program or the values of those cells known to not be 254 due to something else
18:31:57 <ais523> in gcc-bf, knowing that every third cell is usually set to 1, for instance, is very useful to do various sorts of optimisations
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18:32:27 <ais523> AnMaster: if they were left at 1 forever, they wouldn't be useful at all
18:32:39 <ais523> but they only have different values for short periods of time
18:32:41 <ais523> and only one does at a time
18:32:43 <AnMaster> ais523, how could compiler know when it was at 1 then
18:33:00 <ais523> well, it always is in the outer loop
18:33:06 <ais523> although actually proving that might be rather difficult
18:33:08 <AnMaster> ais523, does the generated bf contain any dead code?
18:33:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it could do, but that would be if there was dead code in the asm
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18:33:38 <AnMaster> ais523, so no possibly BfBASIC style dead code?
18:33:39 <ais523> and you'd need to investigate every function pointer in the input C to make sure it never called into that code
18:33:59 <ais523> AnMaster: again, possible if you have something like a while loop which never iterates
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18:34:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure, if the input C contains dead code
18:34:31 <AnMaster> but I meant, will you ever generate anything like [-]+[->+++<]
18:34:35 <ais523> why are you so bothered about this, anyway?
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18:34:51 <ais523> and it might at the moment, I'm not sure how much I optimise
18:35:00 <ais523> it's quite likely you could even generate >< with the current code
18:35:19 <AnMaster> ais523, when BF code is so bad it can be optimised at the pure BF code level then I get rather uncomfortable
18:35:34 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I'm aiming for something that works first
18:35:47 <ais523> and the optimisations are likely to be peephole rather than global
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18:35:54 <AnMaster> ais523, lostking contains lots of dead code, and I don't detect all of it yet.
18:35:54 <ais523> as in, that gcc-bf is missing
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18:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, You mean you need peep hole optimisers?
18:36:40 <AnMaster> May I recommend erlang, it is truly awesome for those
18:36:44 <ais523> but they're trivial enough to hack onto the end
18:36:51 <ais523> and may I recommend Perl, it's even more awesome for those
18:36:53 <AnMaster> it fits the pattern matching of erlang perfectly
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18:37:12 <ais523> AnMaster: does erlang have pattern matching as powerful as Perl regexes?
18:37:12 <AnMaster> optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V2 }|T],
18:37:12 <AnMaster> [#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V1 } = A|Result]) ->
18:37:12 <AnMaster> optimise(T, [A#bfn{ val = V1 + V2 }|Result]);
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18:37:56 <AnMaster> ais523, no, but it does have PCRE. Don't think it works at language level currently. Though I heard some rumours about that being considered.
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18:38:28 <ehird> 07:44 bsmntbombdood: ....my computer just crashed ← did you do something wrong?
18:39:55 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I recently read an interesting article about using superoptimiser to generate better peep hole optimisers.
18:40:05 <ais523> an optimiser optimiser?
18:40:27 <AnMaster> ais523, http://cs.stanford.edu/~sbansal/pubs/asplos06.pdf (linked from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization)
18:40:28 <ais523> and I've had a couple of kernel panics over here before too, I think the wireless driver was at fault
18:41:03 <AnMaster> I have rougly one or two kernel panics / year.
18:41:14 <ais523> AnMaster: what causes them?
18:41:18 <ehird> 17:15 AnMaster: I did a table describing all possible combinations, then I seralised it into a function returning a set of actions given two instructions.
18:41:18 <ehird> 17:15 ais523: err... you serialised a table into a function?
18:41:20 <ehird> 17:15 ais523: I don't think that's what "serialised" means
18:41:22 <ehird> 17:15 ais523: ehird: if you're here, please now laugh at either me or AnMaster
18:41:24 <ehird> /me laughs at AnMaster
18:41:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I think he's using Debian, and I don't care how many kernel panics you have.
18:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, usually nvidia or vmware drivers. Once buggy USB in kernel (around 2.6.8 or so)
18:41:51 <ehird> "Wolfram Alpha v Google: Which is better?
18:41:52 <ehird> Wolfram Alpha is the new computational search engine that could revolutionise the way we use the web. But is it good enough to replace Google as the most popular online search engine?"
18:41:54 <ehird> *smashes head against brick wall*
18:42:16 <ais523> I know I once managed to compile a division by zero into a custom kernel I was compiling
18:42:21 <AnMaster> ehird, about how many kernel panics I had
18:42:21 <ais523> so that panicked every single time
18:42:24 <ehird> well ais523 was talking about bsmntbombdood's panic too
18:42:30 <ais523> GregorR: GregorR-L: here?
18:42:34 <ehird> and I don't care about ais523's crashes either
18:42:46 <ais523> ehird: but AnMaster does, I think
18:43:01 <ehird> ais523: only so he can comment on how much more stable his system is
18:43:02 <ais523> I don't run custom kernels on my own hardware, but this was for a project where we needed a massively small kernel
18:43:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and of course I had a "panic, boot drive not found" when I messed up in grub on new installs.
18:43:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you mess around with grub by hand?
18:43:22 <ais523> my package manager sorts that out for me
18:43:29 <AnMaster> ais523, um... grub-install misdetected what hd0 and hd1 was
18:43:45 <AnMaster> ais523, so even if I had used a package manager to do it, it wouldn't have helped
18:43:52 <ehird> http://i.somethingawful.com/u/dannymanic/wolfram/wolfram04.gif ← oh, SA.
18:43:54 <ais523> it automatically generates a sane grub configuration based on which packages you have installed
18:44:09 * ais523 vaguely wonders what it would do if I tried to uninstall the kernel; maybe default to booting memtest86
18:44:13 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster messes around with _everything_ by hand
18:44:24 <ais523> ehird: you can mess around with the auto-grub thing by hand too
18:44:27 <ais523> just most people don't bother
18:44:33 <AnMaster> ais523, basically linux live cd saw /dev/sda (SATA) and /dev/hda (PATA), grub-install decided sda was hd0. When booting it had instead decided hda was hd0
18:44:50 <ehird> ais523: but that requires he let something else do trivially automatable work!
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18:46:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and this could not possibly have been solved by a package manager. However. After switching to a new mobo (the old one broke, on warranty), I haven't had issues with reversed interpretations in grub
18:46:17 <AnMaster> different mobo model in case you wonder
18:46:48 <fizzie> Speaking of the somethingawful W|A test, here's one particular input that went around IRC too:
18:46:49 <fizzie> W|A "2 girls x 1 cup the meaning of life": Input interpretation "2 girls × 1 cup × answer to life, the universe, and everything", result "84 cup girls".
18:47:03 <fizzie> That's a... rather interesting unit.
18:47:26 <AnMaster> what is up with the google logo
18:47:33 <ehird> fizzie: http://www53.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2+girls+1+cup gives it too
18:47:35 <ehird> AnMaster: hover over
18:47:38 <ehird> it changes all the time...
18:47:41 <AnMaster> clicking on it gives me "missing link found"
18:47:47 <ehird> surely you've noticed google's holiday logso
18:47:49 <fizzie> It's about the new fossil discovery, I guess.
18:47:59 <ais523> (this is evidence about how rarely I use Google, and how even more rarely AnMaster uses Google)
18:48:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yes.. but which one is this
18:48:04 <ehird> total baloney of course, the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days
18:48:09 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster uses google all the time
18:48:11 <ehird> AnMaster: hover ove
18:48:23 <ehird> click the links on the missing link found?
18:48:27 <ehird> it always links toa relevant search
18:48:37 <AnMaster> ehird, clicking on it -> http://www.google.com/search?q=missing+link+found&ct=missinglink&oi=ddle
18:48:45 <ehird> look at the articles
18:48:49 <ais523> ehird: that "missing link" fossil had a similar release to Wolfram Alpha
18:48:55 <ais523> so I don't entirely trust it
18:49:10 <fizzie> Well, the "news results" articles are reasonably relevant, at least some of them.
18:49:15 <ehird> ais523: I don't trust it because 18:48 ehird: total baloney of course, the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days
18:49:28 <ais523> ehird: you don't believe that
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18:49:31 <fizzie> One of them is http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s5i53486 which is not quite what it's about.
18:49:37 <AnMaster> ehird, "404 Not Fou.. Wait sorry, here it is. Err. 200!"
18:49:39 <ehird> ais523: Correct! I know it!
18:50:26 <AnMaster> sadly the HTTP protocol doesn't let you say you did a mistake halfway through the transmission
18:50:29 <ehird> Also, we're crafted out of clay.
18:50:42 <ais523> AnMaster: are you sure?
18:50:51 <ais523> so you could do it at the lower level
18:50:53 <ehird> after the headers, it's just a raw stream
18:51:04 <ais523> ehird: I was thinking, halfway through the headers
18:51:14 <ais523> AnMaster: if you send packets out of order, you can fill in the missing ones later
18:51:15 <ehird> ais523: impossible too
18:51:19 <ehird> there's no header for it
18:51:19 <ais523> in fact, the other computer will bug you for them
18:51:41 <ais523> AnMaster: useful because sometimes the packets end up out of order even though you sent them in the right order
18:51:49 <AnMaster> oh yes, if HTML you could add in, then put the broken part inside <!-- -->
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18:52:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you had to make space for that extra packet right?
18:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, and what if you decided you didn't need an out of order one there...
18:52:48 <ais523> just send a packet full of comments
18:56:14 <ais523> GregorR-L: I wrote a BF Joust hg bundle
18:56:17 <ais523> which is moderately tested
18:56:19 <ais523> where should I send it?
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18:58:01 <ais523> it requires Perl 5.10; I may have to produce a 5.8 version, depending on what you're running atm
18:59:07 <ehird> ais523: debian testings'
18:59:11 <ehird> hopefully perl 5.——
18:59:18 <ehird> ais523? Depend on modern Perl features?
18:59:22 <ais523> Ubuntu have been on Perl 5.10 for ages
18:59:24 <AnMaster> ais523, did you read that about super-optimisation to produce better peep hole optimisers?
18:59:27 <ehird> modern *5.10* features?
18:59:30 <ais523> AnMaster: not the full article
18:59:35 <ehird> ais523: Who are you, and what did you do with ais523?
18:59:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, see some examples near the end in a table
18:59:49 <ais523> ehird: my aim for backwards compatibility is specifically about C-INTERCAL
18:59:55 <ais523> it isn't so appropriate elsewhere
19:00:04 <ehird> ais523: you've always seemed quite disdainful to the new fangled 5.10 stuff
19:00:09 <ais523> I also believe in portability; but 5.10 is portable
19:00:18 <ais523> and I don't remember being disdainful towards the 5.10 stuff
19:00:23 <ais523> it makes the programs easier to read, at least
19:00:29 <ais523> which is useful when showing them to someone else
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19:18:13 <ais523> hmm... does anyone else here view multiple short files by piping more into less?
19:20:01 * AnMaster makes a pass the scans once forward, then once backwards on the tree...
19:20:55 <AnMaster> rather than having to do :n to see next fime
19:21:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I would never had thought of that...
19:22:42 <ehird> ais523: that doesn't seem to work :<
19:22:58 <ais523> ehird: as in, more *.c | less?
19:23:11 <ehird> I just get one of the files
19:23:27 <ehird> I get all of the files, concatenated
19:23:32 <ais523> from wikitech-l: <Bart> How does one access the toolserver to use commands like that? <Domas> with an axe.
19:24:03 <ais523> Domas is in charge of server maintenance, etc, he's basically the person who most often uses root access on Wikimedia's servers
19:24:15 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
19:24:47 <EgoBot> Score for nop: -2 (maximum 4)
19:25:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> I get all of the files, concatenated
19:25:05 <ais523> hmm... that maximum's one higher than it ought to be
19:25:20 <ais523> because in BF Joust, a program can never beat a copy of itself
19:25:25 <ais523> I should have noticed that in my testing
19:25:49 <ais523> GregorR-L: it puts a results table in a directory the same way the fyb one does
19:25:59 <GregorR-L> ais523: I see, I'll need to make that accessible some way :P
19:26:16 <ais523> in fact, it's mostly the fyb code I'm using
19:27:28 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
19:28:13 <GregorR-L> I don't see a solution immediately, but I do see my looming dental appointment, so byeeeee :P
19:28:38 <ais523> anyway, attack/defend/fool are the scissors/rock/paper of BF Joust, I think
19:28:50 <ais523> although writing good defence programs is /hard/
19:28:58 <ais523> at least, as far as I could tell
19:29:04 <ais523> and a good attack can normally break through them
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19:29:19 <asiekierka> ais523: How's BF Joust? Did anyone beat me?
19:29:26 <EgoBot> Score for nop: -2 (maximum 4)
19:29:33 <ais523> asiekierka: you can try out your programs on egobot now
19:29:56 <ais523> your program, you mean/
19:30:02 <ais523> as in, BF Joust program?
19:30:06 <ais523> it should be in my logs, and in clog's logs
19:30:26 <ais523> and I've rebooted since
19:30:39 <ais523> but it's in my logs, because you told me in the first place
19:31:18 <EgoBot> Score for asie1: -1 (maximum 5)
19:32:00 <EgoBot> Score for asie2: -2 (maximum 6)
19:32:11 <EgoBot> Score for asie2: -2 (maximum 6)
19:32:26 <ais523> +1 for each program you beat, -1 for each program that beats you
19:32:36 <ais523> and the test programs in there are different from the ones I was running against on my own computer
19:32:46 <ais523> asiekierka: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
19:32:59 <ais523> it runs each program against all previous programs
19:33:19 <EgoBot> Score for asie1: -1 (maximum 6)
19:33:25 <ehird> !bfjoust ehirdomatic [[>[-]]>+]
19:33:28 <EgoBot> Score for ehirdomatic: -1 (maximum 7)
19:33:40 <ais523> the report runs in the background, so it won't update immediately
19:33:40 <ehird> ais523: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is empty now.
19:33:48 <ais523> see, it's non-empty now
19:33:50 <ehird> ais523: it wipes it while running, it seems
19:33:56 <ehird> shouldn't it leave the previous content until then
19:34:03 <ais523> I just copied the FYB stuff
19:34:13 <ehird> 19:33 EgoBot: Score for ehirdomatic: -1 (maximum 7)
19:34:15 <ehird> 4 | - - - 0 - 0 | 15.3| -4| ehirdomatic.bfjoust
19:34:25 <ehird> it says my score is 15, but correcting the obvious copypasta to pts, I get -4 there
19:34:27 <ehird> and -1 from the bot
19:34:33 <ais523> ehird: well, it's random tape lengths
19:34:37 <ais523> although I'm not sure if that matters
19:34:46 <ehird> ais523: it should average it out...
19:34:54 <ais523> only one run for each pair of programs
19:34:59 <ais523> otherwise it would take /ages/
19:35:28 <ais523> ehird: although I will point out that your program is probably incapable of winning if the tape length is even
19:35:32 <AnMaster> ais523, it might be interesting to have four states for the balance of a loop
19:35:34 <ais523> which would explain the variety in results
19:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, unknown, true and false are what I have currently. But it could be useful to have "sometimes" as well. Like: [>+,[>>[-]+]<]
19:36:52 <ais523> maybe I should input one of my good programs
19:36:59 <ais523> I just put the basic program for each strategy in there to start with
19:37:07 <asiekierka> I'm good with defense but bad at attack
19:37:30 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000
19:37:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend5: -1 (maximum 8)
19:38:09 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-]
19:38:11 <AnMaster> ais523, is high or low score bad
19:38:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack5: -2 (maximum 9)
19:38:15 <ais523> AnMaster: high is good
19:38:32 <ais523> attack5 does badly against other attack programs, but well against defense programs
19:38:32 <AnMaster> ais523, so negative values indicate sucky programs?
19:38:35 <ais523> which is why it's doing badly here
19:38:40 <ais523> AnMaster: it means they lost more than they won
19:38:51 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, which one won most
19:38:52 <ais523> asiekierka: the report will take a whle to generate
19:39:20 <ais523> hmm... the "score for" seems wrong
19:39:30 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
19:39:31 <ais523> as in, ais523_attack5 won every single game on the report, which I tested
19:39:35 <ais523> but is low on the score-for, which is wrong
19:40:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, it would be more useful if the list was sorted
19:40:14 <ehird> I'm not reading the whole damn thing
19:40:16 <ais523> AnMaster: the help? it isn't, it lists special commands first then interpreters
19:40:29 <ais523> fyb and bfjoust both need special handling
19:40:38 <asiekierka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYRLTF71Sow - check this out xDD
19:40:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I see... what about the text gen one though
19:41:01 <ais523> AnMaster: I suspect that's programmed weirdly too
19:41:06 <EgoBot> 102 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+><<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>-. [83]
19:41:24 <ais523> and that's a lot of +s in a row in the middle...
19:41:27 <AnMaster> it has been discussed several times the last few days
19:41:29 <EgoBot> 102 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+><<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>-. [577]
19:41:52 <ais523> I reckon a human could probably beat that easily
19:41:59 <ais523> although I can't be bothered to right now
19:42:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it could beat itself by running for more generations
19:42:13 <EgoBot> 77 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.>+.++++++.--.+.>-. [222]
19:42:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it is genetic algo after all
19:42:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what was it an?
19:42:55 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, you have 12 GB ram and you OOMed?
19:43:25 <ais523> why would you be sorting 5 gig of data?
19:43:43 <ehird> AnMaster: to use up RAM?
19:44:05 <ehird> AnMaster: cuz he has no other use for 12g
19:44:10 <bsmntbombdood> and how well i could parallelize sort(1) with bash
19:44:43 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> and how well i could parallelize sort(1) with bash
19:45:28 <AnMaster> how can you use sort(1) + bash to sort a file in parallel..
19:46:01 <AnMaster> ais523, it is merge sort kind of I guess
19:46:06 <ais523> why did you need to test it on gigabytes of data?
19:46:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, but sort internally doesn't use that for all parts
19:46:32 <AnMaster> so it is merge for the outermost layer
19:46:36 <ehird> you can merge sort a quicksort
19:47:12 <AnMaster> the "inner" sort that works on the separate chunks are not using merge sort afaik
19:47:29 <ais523> AnMaster: pure-mergesort is a relatively common sorting technique nowadays
19:47:36 <AnMaster> btw, what happens if you try to use a buffer size smaller than the file
19:47:38 <ais523> because unlike quicksort, it isn't slowed by pathological data
19:47:54 <ais523> AnMaster: you can write temporary stages of mergesort on disk
19:48:03 <pikhq> Mergesort is pretty spiffy, indeed.
19:48:06 <ais523> slows it down slightly due to disk I/O time, but mergesort streams very well
19:48:06 <bsmntbombdood> i am preempting all of AnMaster questions by a couple of seconds
19:48:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, I'd have to look at the source
19:48:37 <pikhq> I'm a bit more fond of bucket sort for hand-sorting stuff, though. :p
19:48:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that'll fall down when he asks a really stupid question
19:49:17 <ehird> ais523: he said that yesterday do
19:49:19 <ais523> pikhq: I generally use insertion sort when hand-sorting
19:49:26 <ehird> probably they're all ~*PARALLEL*~ like <3Erlang<3
19:49:33 <ais523> because when sorting by hand, I'm not normally sorting much
19:49:40 <ais523> and normally sorting physical objects
19:49:46 <ais523> and they insertion-sort well
19:49:50 <pikhq> ais523: That's what I do if I'm hand-sorting something that's partially sorted.
19:49:55 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: if only 100, it shouldn't matter what algorithm you're using
19:50:03 <ais523> unless you can't automate it
19:50:09 <pikhq> (say, my Magic cards got a bit unsorted by someone)
19:50:14 <ais523> (well, excluding silly ones like stooge-sort
19:50:24 <pikhq> Bucket sort is much nicer for hand-sorting things that aren't very well-sorted.
19:50:24 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't it O(log n) iirc?
19:50:34 <EgoBot> 102 +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>+><<<<-]>.++++.>-.<++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>>-. [99]
19:50:53 <ais523> all sorts are at least O(n) in size
19:50:57 <ais523> because otherwise you couldn't store all the data
19:51:17 <ais523> and mergesort is O(n log n) in time, O(n) in size, IIRC
19:51:33 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, I looked up sorting networks, and you're full of shit, because they're just a way to represent conventional sorting algorithms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Insertion_and_Selection_networks
19:51:41 <pikhq> Unless you've got inefficient allocation, that is.
19:51:58 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Optimal_sorting
19:52:10 <ais523> mergesort's nice because it hits theoretical optimums for both time and size, /and/ its worst-case performance is the same as its best-case performance
19:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: how's that relevant at all?
19:52:28 <ehird> ais523: wait, mergesort always uses the same amount of time for a given length?
19:52:46 <ais523> ehird: yes for some implementations
19:52:59 <ais523> I assume that it isn't exactly the same in practice due to things like branch prediction
19:53:03 <bsmntbombdood> it uses exactly the same amount of comparisons iirc
19:53:07 <ais523> and people not writing the program symmetrically
19:53:10 <ais523> but it's the same in comparison count
19:54:41 <AnMaster> an abacus can sort in O(sqrt(n)) says wikipedia
19:55:01 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bead_sort#Complexity
19:55:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Define n
19:55:30 <ehird> oh, gravity-based.
19:59:34 <ehird> i just do crapsort
19:59:51 <ehird> find something that looks too big/small for position, throw it in right direction
19:59:54 <ehird> repeat until sorted
20:00:19 <bsmntbombdood> merge sort is actually rather adaptive when you do it by hand
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20:05:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's called an abacus
20:05:55 <bsmntbombdood> with a scale large enough that it's actually faster than a general purpose cpu
20:05:55 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure you could build a sorting coprocessor to do bead sort.
20:05:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's useless without an infinitely long abacus
20:06:14 <ehird> pikhq: he means analogue
20:06:21 <ehird> robot to move them
20:06:40 <ehird> Both digital and analog hardware implementations of bead sort can achieve a sorting time of O(n)
20:06:41 <pikhq> That'd be pretty cool, too.
20:07:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just simulates an abacus?
20:07:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> find something that looks too big/small for position, throw it in right direction <-- one way to optimise it would be by when it is too big and you move it down, then go back one step and compare, and so on
20:07:46 <ehird> AnMaster: that's gnome sort
20:07:50 <bsmntbombdood> anyway, if it has to be O(n), you might as well use your fpga to do a counting sort
20:07:53 <ehird> but it's too boring to remember all that stuff
20:08:05 <ehird> it's so much easier just to throw stuff around
20:08:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it seemed like the best way for the instruction shifter in bf. Since there are so many restrictions on the top of the basic "sort by offset"
20:09:09 <pikhq> I'm rather fond of non-comparison sorts, really.
20:09:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe
20:09:18 <AnMaster> and of course it has to be a stable sort... "[-]>,<+" isn't same as "+[-]>,<"
20:09:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you have sse4.2; go play with it
20:09:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just mix the sse instructions in with C
20:09:58 <ehird> it's just registers
20:10:24 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Depends; are you doing any vector operations?
20:10:46 <pikhq> Say, comparing 4 values to 4 other values at the same time? ;p
20:11:10 <ehird> I'm going to try some CUDA stuff
20:11:15 <ehird> Hope my shitty radeon can run it
20:11:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but my radeon absolutely cannot, being that CUDA is a nvidia technology :)
20:12:02 <ehird> what's your card? the 8600?
20:12:30 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but it's not CUDA
20:12:32 <ehird> and CUDA seems nicer
20:12:48 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it isn't CUDA. But the one ATI uses is an open format iirc.
20:13:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: right, it's a mid-low-end gfx card
20:13:04 <ehird> as in, mid of the low enda
20:13:09 <ehird> AnMaster: cuda's specs are open, I think
20:13:13 <ehird> and I don't really care
20:13:16 <ehird> CUDA seems nicer to program in
20:13:33 <ehird> d'you mean OpenCL, AnMaster?
20:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe, I don't remember the name
20:13:48 <ehird> "OpenCL was initially developed by Apple Inc., which holds trademark rights, and refined into an initial proposal in collaboration with technical teams at AMD, Intel and Nvidia."
20:13:49 <ehird> "NVIDIA announced on December 9, 2008 to add full support for the OpenCL 1.0 specification to its GPU Computing Toolkit.[8]"
20:13:59 <ehird> so I could use it if I wanted, but CUDA looks nicer
20:15:12 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway Gnome sort is trivial to implement. And works fairly well for sorting BF instructions.
20:15:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and it is peep hole style too
20:15:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why, they're just GTXes without the gaming stuff
20:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, trivial when working on linked two linked lists (one input and one output) as well
20:16:09 <ehird> I'm considering getting a gtx, though, and putting a quiet fan on it
20:16:18 <ehird> but I'm not sure I need the extra performance :p
20:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, tesla doesn't have any VGA or DVI connectors. iirc
20:16:52 <AnMaster> But yeah you only use monitors for gaming
20:17:03 <ehird> but that's even more of a reason not to buy them
20:17:09 <ehird> I bet they're more expensive than GTXes too
20:17:21 <ehird> but I'd just buy a GTX for that anyway :p
20:17:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: meh
20:18:01 <ehird> just SLI a bunch of gtx's up
20:18:05 <ehird> should be enough for most anything
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20:20:10 <fizzie> They should make some sort of combined sauna stove / GPU.
20:20:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: good lord
20:21:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a fuckload of fans
20:21:02 <ehird> I wonder how much you could quiet a gtx 275
20:21:20 <ehird> Huge heatsink would probably get it down to a just-too-high temp, you could probably add a nice quiet fan on to that
20:21:22 <ehird> but what about fan adjustment?
20:21:23 <bsmntbombdood> the puny little fan and heatsink i see on them doesn't look very capable
20:22:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it probably runs at 5k rpm or something daft like that
20:22:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or has 3 fans under the cover
20:22:45 <fizzie> Maybe a fan with tiny fans mounted on the blades.
20:23:12 <ehird> unfortunately, infinite dB
20:23:27 <ehird> but infinite cooling power!
20:24:06 <ais523> ehird: actually, log-infinity dB
20:24:18 <ais523> which means that you can have aleph-one cooling power, but only aleph-zero noise
20:24:23 <ais523> decibels are a logarithmic scale
20:24:34 <ehird> ais523: that's some good cooling/noise ratio
20:24:43 <ehird> unfortunately, I'm not sure my ears are clued up on aleph-one vs aleph-zero
20:24:49 <ehird> they might just break anyway
20:26:13 <AnMaster> <fizzie> They should make some sort of combined sauna stove / GPU. <-- that would definitely be a hit in Finland. Not anywhere else though...
20:26:37 <ehird> AnMaster: whyever not? just have a sauna next to your house
20:27:00 <ehird> your gpu doubles as a sauna stove
20:27:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: It'd also be a hit in much of the northern US and Canada.
20:27:07 <ehird> so make a sauna next to your house and use it as one
20:27:14 <ehird> and start a sauna business
20:27:17 <ehird> you can profit while you game
20:27:21 <ehird> and have an excuse to game all day
20:27:22 <AnMaster> but what about California and such
20:27:33 <pikhq> And it'd be ubiquitous in Alaska.
20:27:38 <AnMaster> and there is where computers are designed after all
20:27:49 <ehird> AnMaster: what a great generalization
20:27:52 <pikhq> Yeah, in California, you sell a combined air conditioner and CPU cooler.
20:28:19 <pikhq> I recommend a tank of liquid nitrogen for the computer and a fan to distribute the cold air.
20:28:23 <AnMaster> my point was, they wouldn't come up with the idea
20:28:45 <ehird> pikhq: people have overclocked CPUs to ~6.5ghz by just pouring liquid nitrogen on it
20:28:46 <AnMaster> it wouldn't occur to them. Too hot.
20:28:56 <ais523> ehird: submerging in liquid nitrogen, I thought
20:29:06 <ais523> given that it doesn't conduct electricity, it's not all that bad an idea
20:29:12 <ehird> ais523: well, the video just showed a huge amount of smoke and someone tipping a canister
20:29:16 <ehird> so it'd probably end up submerging it
20:29:21 <ehird> but they tipped it continuously
20:29:24 <ais523> that's steam, not smoke
20:29:26 <pikhq> ehird: 10GHz with Phenom II.
20:29:35 <ehird> 6.5ghz is world record
20:29:40 <ehird> on some AMD chip, maybe phenom ii
20:29:40 <ais523> well, sort of condensed liquid-phase steam
20:29:46 <ais523> I'm not sure if that technically counts as steam or not
20:29:54 <AnMaster> the photo I have seen showed them pouring it into a pipe mounted on the CPU
20:30:01 <ehird> AnMaster: that's possible too
20:30:06 <ehird> i don't really recall
20:30:27 <AnMaster> might have been a different madman
20:30:59 <bsmntbombdood> i think you would have to get all your components completely anhydrous
20:31:29 <ehird> AnMaster: AMD and Gigabyte do it at open events
20:31:31 <ehird> to promote their hardware
20:31:38 <ehird> so not exactly madman
20:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2007TaipeiITMonth_IntelOCLiveTest_Overclocking-6.jpg
20:32:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm quite sure they won't give support on those products if any customer did it!
20:32:27 <ehird> AnMaster: that's from an Intel event, it seems
20:32:50 <ehird> AnMaster: and, well— I read an AMD Athlon X2 manual today. it said that replacing heatsink/fan voided the warranty
20:33:00 <ehird> so... it's barely supported anyway!
20:33:29 <ehird> i played with the overclocking settings on it a bit
20:33:33 <pikhq> Amusing, since they sell it without a heatsink as well.
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20:33:40 <ehird> it was 2ghz and went to 2.67ghz quite painlessly
20:33:48 <ehird> although sometimes it'd try to boot, not post, give a click, then reboot again and work
20:33:58 <ehird> Sgeo: read the logs if you want to know
20:34:11 <ehird> but yeah, it ran just fine although I didn't do any intensive tests
20:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you have such a computer?
20:34:32 <Sgeo> Reading logs means waiting for Firefox to start up
20:34:37 <Sgeo> Which can be a few minutes
20:34:51 <ehird> it's my mom's but I was toying with it earlier
20:35:49 <ehird> the cray-2 was submerge-cooled
20:36:07 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-2
20:37:32 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cooling#Integrated_Chip_Cooling_Techniques
20:39:35 <ehird> when i pushed the cpu past 2.67ghz it refused to boot, which made me sad :p
20:40:44 <ais523> that's a pointless overclock, really
20:40:52 <ais523> why not run it at regular speed if that's all the improvement you can get?
20:41:08 <ehird> but I wanted to see how much it'd let me do
20:41:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: of course
20:41:47 <ehird> AnMaster: to spend less money on a cheaper processor to get more performance
20:42:19 <ehird> but this didn't really work too well... the base clock thing was 200 to start with, and more than 207 made it more unstable than the sometimes-boots-twice-automatically-before-POSTing (i.e. refused to boot). multiplier max was 13x but that worked fine.
20:42:22 <AnMaster> Hm. I never heard of anyone overclocking a laptop
20:42:37 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=overclocking+laptop&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:42:41 <ehird> 15 Nov 2002 ... Overclocking a laptop can be a mistake, as processor heat is not easily dissipated when using a heat sink with a fan pushing less air than I ...
20:43:16 <ehird> the fan on the athlon usually runs at 1600 rpm or so
20:43:28 <ehird> with the small .67ghz overclock it ran at 1900 rpm or so
20:43:32 <ehird> went a few degrees up too
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20:46:25 <ehird> ais523: .67ghz isn't that small; it's a 33.5% increase
20:46:35 <ehird> but performance-wise, 2 vs 2.67ghz probably isn't gigantic, for a low-endp orc
20:46:43 <ais523> that is pretty small, only 33%
20:46:48 <ais523> in terms of actual usefulness
20:47:00 <ehird> ais523: err, over 20% overclock is considered large, I believe
20:47:30 <ais523> so why do people even bother with it?
20:47:44 <ehird> ais523: because some CPUs overclock better
20:47:50 <ehird> the 2.6ghz Core i7 920
20:47:52 <ehird> can overclock to 4ghz
20:47:59 <ehird> which is higher than an i7 you can buy
20:48:17 <ehird> 965 (3.2ghz) $999.99
20:48:30 <ehird> so you save $720 and get .8ghz more
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20:52:04 <ais523> Sgeo: I'll wait a few days before visting it, I don't want to overload the servers
20:52:13 <ais523> in the meantime, don't spoil it
20:52:27 <ehird> ais523: what kind of server can't handle a few web hits?
20:52:33 <Sgeo> Maybe in the next few days, there'll be a new new one
20:52:39 <ais523> a single server that's very popular
20:52:41 <Sgeo> What are you up to?
20:52:44 <pikhq> ehird: Maybe a C64?
20:53:00 <ais523> apparently it's message board traffic that puts the most strain on it
20:53:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Order of the Stick.
20:53:06 <ehird> ais523: stress someone else's single popular server: http://imgur.com/8h4xz.gif
20:53:08 <Sgeo> The server was recently upgraded, and in a few months there will be two servers - one for the comic, one for the boards
20:53:23 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alaska_Pipeline_Closeup_Underneath.jpg
20:53:24 <ais523> ehird: not from this connection, and that's almost certainly copyvio if it's a copy of OotS
20:53:35 <ehird> rehosting free material is not a copyright violation
20:53:39 <Sgeo> It's a copy of OotS
20:53:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:54:06 <ehird> (and if it's ruled so, I shall have to build an asylum for the world. Mark two.)
20:54:25 <ais523> ehird: err, I don't see why it wouldn't be
20:54:26 <Sgeo> Mark one being in the HHGG "trilogy"?
20:54:39 <ais523> because "free" != "free for all purposes"
20:54:43 <ehird> ais523: *facepalms, builds underground bunker*
20:54:47 <ais523> he might want the ad revenue, for instance
20:54:52 <ais523> I know OotS has no direct ads
20:55:00 <ehird> if he wants to turn a profit he should get a server that can handle hits :)
20:55:00 <ais523> but it certainly advertises its own peripheral products a lot
20:57:09 <pikhq> ehird: I've already done that. This was after I discovered that most car owners were incapable of changing their oil or other such basic tasks.
20:57:31 <ehird> pikhq: can I leave the Asylum?
20:57:45 <ehird> I think you will find that I am incredibly sane, and thus can apply for entainment.
20:57:58 <pikhq> ehird: You are in the asylum, but not as an inmate.
20:58:03 <ehird> (being the opposite of detainment)
20:58:07 <pikhq> So, yes, you are free to leave it at any time.
20:58:16 <ehird> pikhq: where does it end?
20:58:47 <pikhq> I declare your home to be Outside of the Asylum.
21:00:40 <bsmntbombdood> heatsink reviewers need a more objective methodology
21:01:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: like how
21:01:35 <ehird> Infinite inversion snowflakes turn into MC Escher's dream about butterflies.
21:01:38 <bsmntbombdood> build a heater with a thermocouple and a processor shaped heatspreader, attach your heatsink, and measure how much heat you can put into the base until the temperature reaches some amount
21:02:25 <bsmntbombdood> and then you can compare any coolers based on their wattage rating
21:02:36 <ehird> yeah but that doesn't measure real-world processor performanc
21:03:26 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/logos/missinglink.gif
21:03:34 <Sgeo> Some Christians are upset by this
21:03:42 <ehird> I'm not surprised.
21:04:06 <ehird> ais523: err, what?
21:04:14 <Sgeo> ehird, ais523 was making a joke
21:04:21 <ehird> Sgeo: They can believe the world is 6000 years old and God makes each and every one of us out of clay, and we can advance humanity.
21:04:24 <ais523> Sgeo: it's actually a metajoke
21:04:41 <ais523> given what happened in this channel a few hours ago
21:04:50 <ehird> arctic cooling are pretty cool
21:04:55 <Sgeo> ...I'm curious now, what happened?
21:05:07 <ehird> Sgeo: AnMaster thought the link in the logo was an error
21:05:11 <pikhq> ehird: I'll tell you who gives a damn.
21:05:11 <ehird> as in, link-is-missing
21:05:21 <pikhq> The Christians that think the world is older than 6,000 years. ;)
21:05:35 <pikhq> And most of them are caring enough to face-palm.
21:05:40 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, they do associate with the other ones by choice... :-P
21:09:29 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2258
21:10:01 <ehird> the orochi is so large as to be impractical
21:10:07 <ehird> "less than 30 dBA noise"
21:10:15 <ehird> you mean like any decently silent heatsink/fan combination ever?
21:11:19 <fizzie> The heatpipes get bonus points for looking like some sort of tentacle monster.
21:13:59 <fizzie> I would like to move the innards of my secondary desktop computer from the current "boring beige box" into the not-in-use-since-the-smoke-went-out Lian Li "itty-bitty black box", but I think the monstrous hunk of a cooling device (which isn't even all that big by modern standards) is a bit too high to actually fit in.
21:16:33 <ais523> fizzie: CPU cases have magic smoke now?
21:16:42 <ais523> or did the smoke escape from the CPU inside it?
21:17:02 <fizzie> The smoke escaped from the parts that were formerly occupying the box, yes.
21:17:30 <fizzie> Well, I guess they still are occupying it in a physical sense, since I just stuck the thing in a corner so I won't stumble on it.
21:24:49 <bsmntbombdood> http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:gzD5srbF0_sJ:www.cs.ualberta.ca/~niewiado/TR07-02.pdf+sorting+with+sse&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=iceweasel-a
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21:28:38 <ehird> [ehird:/TheVolumeSettingsFolder/HFSExtentTables/MNT6835442416PHRKF87P115I8] % ls
21:28:39 <ehird> 6NGSHGFTH6UJ237QGNESSF403KDLU5C1N7V6OVSOMP4UC1JL3RM0
21:29:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: poking around /
21:51:46 <bsmntbombdood> the problem with using sse for sorting is that if you are able to use it, you are also able to use a non-comparison sort
21:52:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: heh
21:58:27 <Gracenotes> hah, I have to try this out: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html
21:58:42 -!- nooga has joined.
21:58:44 <Gracenotes> the probability of two large random integers being coprime is 6/pi^2
21:59:25 <nooga> i wonder if there is sense in writing SADOL compiler that employs partial evaluation for different types
21:59:29 <Gracenotes> I must put all the computing power of my GHC to this task
21:59:38 <Gracenotes> I'll tell you when I get 5 decimal places. >_>
21:59:45 <ehird> Gracenotes: ask bsmntbombdood
22:00:01 <ehird> he'll throw 4 cores/8 threads, 2.9ghz and 12GB of DDR3 RAM at it
22:00:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:00:33 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: ooooh so now hyperthreading is a good thing
22:00:37 <ais523> Gracenotes: that's brilliant, a bit like monte carlo evaluation of pi, but less efficient
22:00:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: nope
22:00:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I was just stating the facts
22:00:46 <Gracenotes> that actually wouldn't be a bad shootout problem
22:00:53 <ehird> Gracenotes: it'd be a bloody slow one
22:01:38 <Gracenotes> implement a 19937 mersenne twister and, given a seed via command line, calculate the number of iterations until you get pi to a certain accuracy
22:01:55 <Gracenotes> given consecutive pairs of high numbers from the twister
22:02:09 <Gracenotes> okay, maybe a little too specific for a shootout question
22:02:23 <Gracenotes> but still, lemme at least try implementing it first... mmmm.
22:02:45 <Gracenotes> ghc --make -O2 -funbox-strict, here I come
22:03:24 <ais523> is a funbox like a funroll?
22:03:30 <Gracenotes> bsmntbombdood: let's sign up for a BOINC project!!!
22:04:10 <Gracenotes> actually, the full name is -funbox-strict-fields
22:04:19 <bsmntbombdood> ...to calculate pi via the most inefficient algorithm possible?
22:04:42 <pikhq> I vote that you calculate pi via an evolutionary algorithm.
22:04:54 <ehird> ais523: it unboxes stuff.
22:05:01 <ehird> strict fields in specific
22:05:03 <pikhq> Compare with a circle with known area and radius.
22:05:08 <Gracenotes> pikhq: eh. There's a different between that an hill-climbing
22:05:47 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Did I mention that this was meant to be implemented using floating-point emulation?
22:05:50 <nooga> where's my llvm-gcc
22:06:14 <Gracenotes> linked to from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ltxo/absolutely_without_a_doubt_the_most_inefficient/c09pfc8
22:06:30 <Gracenotes> who calculated pi by emulating the pin drop method
22:06:50 <nooga> ehird: does llvm-gcc exist on macports?
22:06:53 <Gracenotes> which is possibly more inefficient, but only the mathematicians can tell us!
22:07:07 <ehird> nooga: try "port search". but use clang, foo
22:07:19 <ehird> llvm-gcc42 @2.5 (lang)
22:07:23 <nooga> port install clang?
22:07:32 <Gracenotes> ais523: oh, a funbox isn't much like a funroll, but maybe a freschedule-modulo-scheduled-loops is
22:07:34 <ehird> you need to check it out from svn
22:07:41 <pikhq> I love that the PRNG seed is Pi.
22:07:46 <Gracenotes> or maybe -fsched-stalled-insns-dep=<number>
22:07:58 <nooga> ehird: i got llvm package from ports (2.5)
22:08:09 * Gracenotes looks for the weirdest gcc flag he can find
22:08:25 <ehird> nooga: http://clang.llvm.org/get_started.html
22:08:31 <ehird> nooga: before you do those instructions:
22:08:36 <ehird> otherwise it breaks
22:08:41 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
22:08:43 <ehird> then follow those instructions exacterly
22:08:55 <nooga> ehird: but it won't break my classic gcc? i need it for gayPhone
22:09:04 <ehird> nooga: it won't, clang != gcc.
22:09:07 <ehird> clang is a new compiler
22:09:07 <pikhq> ehird: Only works with gcc-4.2?
22:09:10 <ehird> nooga: also, just don't 'make install;
22:09:14 <ehird> pikhq: it just doesn't work with 4.1
22:09:16 <AnMaster> <Gracenotes> finline-functions-called-once
22:09:24 <nooga> but setting CC might damage something
22:09:26 <ehird> nooga: and you can just use it from the source tree
22:09:31 <ehird> since it'll goa s you close your terminal
22:09:35 <ais523> once you close the terminal, it's forgotten
22:09:36 <ehird> so just close the terminal after that
22:09:47 <pikhq> Or just change CC back.
22:09:51 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: not really... it's somewhat specific, that's all.
22:10:06 <Gracenotes> I suppose if you're interested in a trade off between performance and binary size...
22:10:29 * pikhq should set up clang and LLVM...
22:10:53 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, and what are you implementing
22:11:02 <ehird> a scrollback searcher
22:11:20 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. Can I saw it with my current headache
22:11:33 <ehird> AnMaster: you can saw it but you might chop your finger off
22:11:39 <ehird> always be careful with saws
22:11:41 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html
22:11:55 <nooga> svn co http://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/cfe/trunk clang ; make
22:11:57 <Gracenotes> and also looking at random gcc options, cuz I feel like it
22:12:00 <pikhq> I know what the weirdest GCC opt is.
22:12:12 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you on irc with a migrane?
22:12:21 <ehird> nooga: follow the instructions directly.
22:12:23 <ehird> without differage..
22:12:31 <Gracenotes> oh yes, I only considered the ones beginning with -f
22:12:35 <AnMaster> ehird, not being on it doesn't make a difference
22:12:38 <nooga> but i've already got llvm
22:12:46 <AnMaster> just turn the contrast down and it works quite ok
22:12:51 <ais523> -### is pretty weird, name-wise at least
22:12:51 <ehird> it won't work properly
22:12:59 <ehird> nooga: so just do what it says, it won't overwrite
22:13:01 <ehird> just don't "make install' ffs
22:13:58 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, anyway what are you implementing...
22:14:04 <nooga> ehird: what is the difference between clang and llvm-gcc?
22:14:11 <Gracenotes> calculating PI by the above-linked method
22:14:11 <AnMaster> <Gracenotes> AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html <-- that?
22:14:13 <ehird> clang is a new c compiler
22:14:16 <ehird> llvm-gcc is gcc compiling to llvm
22:14:19 <ais523> nooga: llvm-gcc is based on gcc
22:14:23 <ais523> whereas clang is different
22:14:31 <Gracenotes> other than port my C++ ray tracer to Haskell
22:14:37 <Gracenotes> and figure out Haskell's SDL interface
22:14:42 <ais523> also, in terms of what I got C-INTERCAL working for, llvm-gcc compiles to native code, clang to bytecode
22:14:46 <ais523> but I suspect that isn't necessary
22:14:58 <nooga> is speed of code generated by clang worth doing all that weird installation procedure?
22:15:10 <Gracenotes> and figuring out whether I need existentials to make a heterogenous list of shapes in the scene
22:15:13 <ehird> you're just not any good at it :)
22:15:29 <nooga> regular installation is: sudo apt-get install clang
22:15:57 <ehird> yeah it's not as if anyone ever compiles anything themselves
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22:16:30 <AnMaster> ais523, then you are doing it wrong
22:16:30 <nooga> but when i get this llvm with clang compiled...
22:16:51 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a packaging bug in clang over here
22:16:53 <AnMaster> ais523, use -emit-llvm to llvm-gcc
22:16:58 <ais523> which is presumably my fault as I compiled it
22:17:17 <nooga> i don't want any software in my ~
22:17:27 <ehird> nooga: figure out something yourself then
22:17:36 <nooga> too late, too lazy
22:18:07 <nooga> (yes, i am being annoying on purpose)
22:18:35 <ehird> nooga: *help service terminated*
22:19:16 <AnMaster> nooga, I use ~/local/llvm/2.5/
22:19:35 <AnMaster> since I don't want non-package manager managed software elsewhere on the system
22:20:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah the system with llvm svn uses ~/local/llvm/svn/ for both clang and llvm
22:20:13 <AnMaster> since you place clang inside the llvm build tree
22:20:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you can hack the main llvm build system so it builds clang too
22:21:13 <AnMaster> ehird, just modify the list of subdirs of the tools directory
22:21:35 <AnMaster> this is (was?) needed for out of tree llvm/clang builds
22:28:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
22:29:43 <nooga> PS1=... in .bashrc does not work :C
22:31:14 <nooga> prompt like: macbook-xxxxx-yyyyyyyyyy:~ xxxxxxyyyyyyyyyyy$ is ... yuck
22:32:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:36:55 <nooga> Atomic.cpp:28: error: ‘__sync_synchronize’ was not declared in this scope :C
22:37:06 <nooga> and that what comes out from llvm ;p
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22:45:04 <nooga> id how to build that shit on os x
22:46:59 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: you should get a fusion io io drive for your new computer
22:48:27 <nooga> the head does not build :C
22:57:13 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
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23:05:32 <Sgeo> Just pointed out a long-standing flaw in the M*U*S*H tutorial
23:17:10 <AnMaster> <nooga> Atomic.cpp:28: error: ‘__sync_synchronize’ was not declared in this scope :C
23:18:10 <AnMaster> nooga, out of interest.. What esolang programming have you done
23:19:33 <AnMaster> nooga, plus, that matches "out of question", not "out of interest"
23:20:08 <nooga> long time ago i did some befunge and bf
23:20:17 <nooga> + mangling sadol all the time
23:20:25 <nooga> eg. raytracer in sadol
23:24:15 <AnMaster> nooga, where is the ray tracer in it
23:24:34 <nooga> i wrote raytracer in sadol
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23:35:35 <nooga> AnMaster: did that =.=
23:35:37 <AnMaster> and wth was up with lament above...
23:35:38 <Sgeo> Ok, this is the second time I accidentally spammed M*U*S*H
23:35:45 <AnMaster> nooga, link to the ray tracer?
23:36:34 <GregorR-L> Incidentally, nobody told me that clang can act as a C++->C compiler :P
23:36:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, maybe because we didn't know
23:37:03 <nooga> but my laptop is far away
23:37:06 <GregorR-L> clang compiles to LLVM, LLVM (llc) has a C target.
23:37:12 <nooga> can't access my data today
23:38:07 <ehird> 23:33 lament has joined (n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net)
23:38:07 <ehird> 23:33 lament: GIGANTIC COCKS
23:38:08 <ehird> 23:33 lament has left ("Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much better.")
23:38:20 <ehird> AnMaster: nooga invented SADOL
23:39:17 <ehird> AnMaster: but if you want to be passive-aggressive, there are less obvious ways
23:39:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you talking about...
23:40:00 <ehird> <AnMaster> Hey nooga. I think you're being an idiot. I'm going to imply you're off-topic all the time by asking: what exactly have you done for esoteric programming? I seeee.
23:40:14 <ehird> it wasn't particularly subtle.
23:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no idea why you misinterpreted me like that.
23:40:17 <nooga> i feel this way too
23:40:24 <nooga> but nvm, i am an idiot
23:40:33 <AnMaster> ehird, suggest a better way to ask it in English?
23:40:57 <AnMaster> to me it sounds perfectly non-agressive
23:41:00 <ehird> it's the context, not the question
23:41:12 * ehird shrug. If you didn't mean that I apologize.
23:41:13 <nooga> uhm, yea it sounded a bit
23:41:24 <AnMaster> there wasn't much of a context
23:41:45 <nooga> context: my lame bawwing about something not compiling
23:42:04 <nooga> (as a hacker i should shut up and figure it out)
23:42:12 <AnMaster> oh, that was separate. and well I don't know OS X. I know compiling on windows is a pain though
23:42:18 <AnMaster> no idea how hard it is on OS X
23:42:29 <ehird> compiling on os x is just like compiling on bsd
23:42:30 <AnMaster> ever tried to compile anything using SDL on windows?
23:42:36 <ehird> except your gcc is old unless you append -4.2
23:42:41 <ehird> (even then it's still old, but :))
23:43:51 <nooga> then i don't know what to do
23:44:02 <nooga> configure runs smoothly and then kaboom
23:44:17 <AnMaster> well the sync one is a GCC builtin
23:44:17 <ehird> CC=gcc-4.2 ./configure
23:44:33 <ehird> That removes ./configure.
23:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird, no that would be make maintainer-clean
23:45:08 <AnMaster> ehird, make distclean remove generated Makefiles
23:45:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and yeah, if it uses autotools I'm sure
23:45:28 <nooga> AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/419385
23:45:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it might be make maintainerclean, not sure if it is a dash there or not
23:46:06 <nooga> AnMaster: scene is hardcoded
23:46:33 <nooga> echo 2 | ./BDSM2 ray.sad > image.ppm
23:46:44 <nooga> where 2 is scale ;p
23:46:49 <ehird> http://pastebin.ca/419385 ← is the output of this any good, i mean most toy raytracers are ~200 lines
23:46:52 <AnMaster> and what is the unit of the scale
23:47:11 <nooga> AnMaster: don't remember
23:47:45 <ehird> my interwebs are going slow
23:47:51 <AnMaster> http://regedit.gamedev.pl/BDSM/
23:48:08 <ehird> http shit isn't loading but irc works
23:48:26 <ehird> http's just going very slow then
23:48:52 <ehird> Zip bombs is the most common way of doing zip.
23:48:56 <ehird> Zips are compressed folders.
23:49:05 <ehird> It's how zips are designed.
23:49:55 <ehird> AnMaster: .obj is .o on windows
23:50:03 <ehird> presumably the makefile was designed by a windowser
23:50:04 <AnMaster> and why not a Makefile, why make.sh
23:50:11 <ehird> AnMaster: because windows
23:50:29 <ehird> i'm sure it's a perfectly valid bat file too
23:50:50 <AnMaster> Copyright (C) 2005 Adam Sawicki
23:51:00 <AnMaster> why is there a gpl2.txt in there
23:51:08 <ehird> AnMaster: sounds like misplaced boilerplate
23:51:12 <ehird> the page says it's GPL
23:51:15 <nooga> probably this is standard
23:51:20 <ehird> nooga: no, it is not
23:51:24 <ehird> all rights reserved != gpl, very strongly
23:51:37 <AnMaster> nooga, didn't you say you coded it?
23:51:37 <ehird> all rights reserved = just watch the blinkenlights, hands off
23:51:41 <nooga> sdandard header generated by his MSVC
23:51:43 <ehird> nooga: Adam Sawicki
23:51:46 <ehird> Martin Gasperowicz
23:51:57 <ehird> He didn't code the interpreter, evidently.
23:51:57 <nooga> Adam Sawicki implemented SADOL
23:52:04 <AnMaster> This is free software. You may redistribute copies of it under the terms of
23:52:04 <AnMaster> the GNU General Public License <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>.
23:52:04 <AnMaster> There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
23:52:06 <nooga> i coded it, in ruby
23:52:15 <nooga> and now i'm coding a compiler
23:52:18 <ehird> AnMaster: 23:51 nooga: sdandard header generated by his MSVC
23:52:27 <ehird> his ide generated the all-rights-reserved thing
23:52:29 <ehird> and he added the gpl manually
23:52:36 <AnMaster> ehird, in the output of the help?
23:52:42 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, that I don't know
23:52:45 <AnMaster> Copyright (C) 2005 Adam Sawicki
23:52:50 <nooga> "curse you meddling penguins"
23:53:25 <AnMaster> where is the damn raw line on pastebin...
23:54:02 <nooga> AnMaster: did you run it?
23:55:46 <ehird> everything takes 4 billion years on a sempron
23:56:15 <AnMaster> well.. the fact that the interpreter is compiled without -O doesn't help...
23:57:53 <ehird> AnMaster: upload the output?
23:57:56 <ehird> converted to png, preferably
23:58:06 <AnMaster> ehird, um. It is trivial on your intel :P
23:58:16 <ehird> i'm so the lazy though.
23:58:17 <AnMaster> so clearly uploading it will take longer
23:58:37 <ehird> 's one thing my new i7 won't be able to do: read my mind and act accordingly
23:58:39 <AnMaster> ehird, since it took less than a minute on a sempron
23:58:54 <ehird> in fact it'll be even more tedious, since I won't be waiting for any computations— so all the time spent will be drudgery ;-)
23:58:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I would be scared if it could
23:59:02 <ehird> Powerful computers ruin lives!
23:59:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:59:12 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, I'd like a mind-controlled computer
23:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, because interpreting thoughts would be Strong AI
23:59:15 <ehird> nice and efficient
23:59:26 <ehird> that's like, the strongest AI you can get
23:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, dangerous.. It will be an EVIL i7
23:59:42 <ehird> clearly yudkowsky was not properly involved
23:59:54 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, that make.sh is the linux compilation file for unix, but written by a unixer