00:02:05 <Slereah_> How to test for atomomicity in Mathematica?
00:02:16 <Slereah_> I searched for "type" and "atom", but no dice
00:03:44 <Slereah_> Though it encompasses more than just lists
00:05:22 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit above the original?
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <impomatic> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <impomatic> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt <-- empty file?
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: Slereah_: A step-by-step demonstration that the anti-kludge Plain English is basically a rearrangement of a small subset of C: http://pastie.org/486940.txt?key=y7p297kilxy4kj0kelcig
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/headlines.cfm
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/index.cfm
00:06:21 <AnMaster> that is all for http in lastlog
00:06:28 <AnMaster> ehird, it is out of my scrollback if it was listed there
00:06:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Try clog.
00:07:14 <ehird> Not my fault your backlog is tiny.
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00:13:37 <Slereah_> How do I define a function with an undefined number of variable?
00:17:35 <Slereah_> "Functions with Variable Numbers of Arguments"
00:24:08 <Slereah_> So it is __ indeed but how the fuck do I choose between the variables.
00:25:21 <ehird> __ is a list, then
00:27:06 <oerjan> Slereah_: um are you using two or three underscores there?
00:27:34 <ehird> In[7]:= fucking[args__] := args
00:27:36 <ehird> In[8]:= fucking[1, 2, 3]
00:27:38 <ehird> Out[8]= Sequence[1, 2, 3]
00:27:39 <ehird> you have to name it
00:28:00 <ehird> Slereah_: so fucking[args___] := args in your case
00:28:59 <Slereah_> I'll just do List[arg], it will prolly be easier to handle
00:29:15 <ehird> Slereah_: this way gives you a sequence
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00:30:35 <Slereah_> But I can't select a particular member of it
00:30:45 <Slereah_> p[y_, x___] := List[x][[y]] works nicely
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00:31:25 <ehird> it works just like a list.
00:31:35 <ehird> so just do butt[args___] := args is like a list yay
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00:32:11 <Slereah_> In[156]:= p[y_, x__] := x[[y]]
00:32:11 <Slereah_> During evaluation of In[157]:= Part::partd: Part specification \
00:32:11 <Slereah_> 1[[2,3,4,5,1]] is longer than depth of object. >>
00:32:30 <ehird> Slereah_: Just look up sequence in the help k
00:32:49 <Slereah_> But you can just put it in List
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00:36:45 <ehird> Slereah_: You know the best thing about mathematica?
00:37:38 <ehird> Slereah_: What about
00:37:44 <ehird> <ESC>pi<ESC><Ctrl-6>2
00:37:54 <Sgeo> I don't get it, what do those do?
00:38:04 <ehird> Sgeo: ESCpiESC turns into the pi symbol
00:38:08 <ehird> <Ctrl-6> enters a subscript
00:38:18 <ehird> So you get pi^2, but as the actual pi symbol, and a superscript 2
00:38:22 <ehird> And it actually works
00:38:33 <Sgeo> You said ctrl-6 was a subscript
00:38:56 <ehird> It also work nestedly.
00:39:07 <ehird> 2<Ctrl-6>2<Ctrl-6>2<Ctrl-6>2 →
00:40:22 <ehird> http://pastie.org/486988.txt
00:40:26 <ehird> The wonders of adding two more characters
00:40:48 <ehird> Slereah_: Say, I'm math-brainfarting at the moment: Is there like a modulo but for exponentiation?
00:40:52 <ehird> modulo = dus dis divide
00:40:58 <ehird> ??? = dus dis exponentiate-y
00:41:14 <ehird> "foo[N,M] is this M**X, and what is X"
00:42:28 <ehird> "In particular, an ordinary logarithm loga(b) is a solution of the equation ax = b "
00:42:30 <ehird> This I did not know!
00:43:02 <oerjan> you might want to get the superscripts correctly displayed
00:43:18 <ehird> oerjan: i just copied from wikipedia
00:43:24 <ehird> where it looked right.
00:43:36 <oerjan> ehird: wait, you didn't know about logarithms?
00:43:46 <ehird> I knew about logarithms
00:44:01 <ehird> I just didn't realise that's what they did, beacuse I've always used them in such familiar bases like e, I guess.
00:44:05 <ehird> Colour me retarded :-)
00:47:23 <Slereah_> What is quite boner about Mathematica is that sometimes, defined functions persist even after deleting them
00:47:29 <oerjan> although if you are not talking modulo arithmetic, solving N = M^X for X is a bit simpler (but rarely has a solution unless it's designed that way of course)
00:47:31 <Slereah_> I don't know what to do to delete them nicely
00:47:43 <ehird> Slereah_: how are you "deleting" them?
00:48:00 <ehird> oerjan: I just wanted the analogue of modulo to exponentiation
00:48:13 <ehird> (what modulo is to multiplication)
00:48:18 <ehird> Slereah_: wait what? show an example
00:49:08 <oerjan> ehird: hm that might be N/(M**X) where X is maximal such that it divides...
00:49:32 <oerjan> modulo is the same for N-M*X
00:49:39 <ehird> how doesn't it work?
00:50:38 <oerjan> ehird: except because smaller things subtract, but don't necessarily divide, N/(M**X) might end up being still much larger than M
00:50:50 <Slereah_> Also yay I did every lisp and recursive functions!
00:51:00 <oerjan> unless you go to fractions
00:51:21 <ehird> Slereah_: can you define types in mathematica?
00:52:18 <oerjan> ehird: oh, in floating point the going to fractions version would be the mantissa, i think
00:52:24 <ehird> Slereah_: Do you know how to bring up the last line in mathematica? It's so annoying going to it and hitting enter
00:52:38 <ehird> actually enter doesn't work
00:52:39 <Slereah_> During evaluation of In[21]:= Unset::wrsym: Symbol \[ImaginaryI] is \
00:52:40 <ehird> you have to copy/paste
00:54:14 <oerjan> ehird: actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significand seems to have two meanings related to my two last suggestions
00:56:58 <Slereah_> I'm not sure Mathematica can actually handle lambdas
00:57:08 <Slereah_> It's not too hard to do, but still
00:57:41 <ehird> Slereah_: just represent them as {lambda,closure,code}
01:00:57 <Slereah_> Let's try out a bit the recursive functions first
01:02:29 <ehird> Slereah_: do you know what is cool?
01:02:51 <Slereah_> Ah, maybe I have to define primitive recursion, too
01:03:59 <oerjan> go one step further and define jurassic recursion
01:04:44 <oerjan> (you may have to invent the term first)
01:04:54 <oerjan> the meaning of it, i mean
01:05:27 <Slereah_> rec[x_, y__, f_, g_] := If[x == 0, g[y], f[x, y, f[x - 1], y]]
01:09:49 <Slereah_> 1[1, 1, s[p[3, 1]], 1[0, 1]] < This does not look very worky
01:10:30 <ehird> Slereah_: how can x be 0
01:11:23 <ehird> i has a mathematica function that doth not work myself
01:12:36 <ehird> just one element is just "x"
01:12:52 <ehird> Slereah_: what happens if you just do
01:12:56 <ehird> does it think its an atom
01:12:59 <ehird> THAT SOLVES MY PROBLEM
01:13:53 <ehird> Round[96.75 + -21.98*Cos[x*1.118] +
01:13:54 <ehird> 13.29*Sin[x*1.118] + -8.387*Cos[2*x*1.118] +
01:13:56 <ehird> 17.94*Sin[2*x*1.118] + 1.265*Cos[3*x*1.118] +
01:13:58 <ehird> 16.58*Sin[3*x*1.118] + 3.988*Cos[4*x*1.118] +
01:14:00 <ehird> 8.463*Sin[4*x*1.118] + 0.3583*Cos[5*x*1.118] +
01:14:02 <ehird> 5.878*Sin[5*x*1.118]]
01:14:06 <ehird> In[70]:= FromCharacterCode[HelloWorld /@ Range[0, 11]]
01:14:08 <ehird> Out[70]= "Hello world!"
01:14:14 <ehird> (http://www.poromenos.org/node/89)
01:14:29 <Slereah_> In[55]:= rec[x_, y__, f_, g_] :=
01:14:29 <Slereah_> If[x == 0, g[y], f[x, y, g, f[x - 1, y]]]
01:14:29 <Slereah_> In[54]:= plus[x_, y_] := rec[x, y, y, s[p[3, x]]]
01:14:29 <Slereah_> Out[56]= 1[1, 1, s[p[3, 1]], 1[0, 1]]
01:14:55 <ehird> Slereah_: rec[x,y,y
01:14:59 <ehird> so you pass in y as f
01:15:01 <ehird> and from your code
01:15:06 <ehird> so you're trying to call 1 as a function
01:15:47 <Slereah_> It should be... well, the projection function, really
01:15:51 <fizzie> I think I fitted ("fut"?) a Hello, World! polynom; I don't remember what the purpose was.
01:16:51 <Slereah_> Except... I can't really pass the projection function as a function?
01:17:18 <Slereah_> I need to redefine p as a class of functions, I guess
01:17:18 <ehird> Slereah_: You need to implement that yourself, I think.
01:17:29 <Slereah_> An argument brings back the correct projection function
01:18:05 <Slereah_> Although I'm not too sure how to do it
01:21:38 <ehird> x_] := -95650 + (21843120265*x)/72072 - (112096622047*x^2)/
01:21:40 <ehird> 277200 + (555063110881*x^3)/1814400 - (536874245743*x^4)/
01:21:42 <ehird> 3628800 + (353243077547*x^5)/7257600 - (54539603707*x^6)/
01:21:44 <ehird> 4838400 + (1696200589*x^7)/907200 - (1079063647*x^8)/
01:21:46 <ehird> 4838400 + (68808973*x^9)/3628800 - (16265027*x^10)/
01:21:48 <ehird> 14515200 + (872351*x^11)/19958400 - (53819*x^12)/
01:21:50 <ehird> 53222400 + (991*x^13)/94348800
01:21:52 <ehird> An alternate hello world function.
01:21:54 <ehird> Has comma, newline.
01:24:19 * pikhq contemplates jurassic recursion
01:26:35 <Slereah_> While 1+1=1, at least there's a result.
01:28:26 <Slereah_> Oh, I guess I can't compose functions like that.
01:29:49 <oerjan> pikhq: it probably involves a food chain somehow
01:37:06 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
01:37:41 <oerjan> you are trying to confuse the magickians even more, i take
01:38:05 * pikhq wants someone to think of him as a technomage. :)
01:39:46 <Slereah_> http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/SICP_wizard.jpg/SICP_wizard-full;init:.jpg
01:39:46 <Slereah_> http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/GJS_Jay_Sussman_Feat._JSB_Sebastian_.mp3
01:46:51 <Slereah_> Although Limp would be a bitch to program on Mathematica, or anywhere, really
01:46:58 <Slereah_> Arithmetica should be easy to whip up!
01:59:58 <Slereah_> Kudos to Mathematica, for it has the obsolete greek characters
02:15:58 <oerjan> so can it give results in greek numerals?
02:20:02 <Slereah_> I'm trying to define the syntax so that it does, but so far, not a lot of results
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04:18:26 <zzo38> Well, how do *you* think FlogScript and GolfScript compare with each other?
04:20:03 <zzo38> Nobody has been on here for more than an hour?
04:22:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up a music for MZX game, some people on other channel doesn't do that
04:24:07 <zzo38> This one I can't sent CTRL+G it tells me is no text to send.
04:26:30 <zzo38> O it is slow that's why it doesn't work OK
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07:10:34 <bsmntbombdood> gzip - 26 minutes, bzip2, 110 minutes, lzma - 246 minutes
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12:33:56 <Slereah> Can you redefine the syntax in Mathematica?
12:34:11 <Slereah> I tried using ^:=, but it doesn't seem to work so well
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16:39:19 <ehird> 00:39 Slereah_: It's actually a song ← originally a sick pea lecture quote
16:39:27 <ehird> and i liked that song before it was cool :|
16:39:43 <ehird> 00:54 Slereah_: Pi is a protected symbol
16:39:43 <ehird> 00:55 Slereah_: Ah, you can unprotect shit
16:39:44 <ehird> 00:55 Slereah_: Good
16:39:46 <ehird> good god, just giv eit another name
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16:54:53 <ehird> haven't seen you here before, you new?
16:55:12 <seanstickle> I am. I saw a reference to the channel from coverage of the Brainfuck KOTH
16:55:17 <ehird> (/me looks at logs and notices two other new people since Slereah changed the topic. coincidence? I think not)
16:55:20 <seanstickle> Thought I'd stop in and see what all is cool and stuff
16:55:23 <ehird> seanstickle: "Brainfuck KOTH", heh
16:55:29 <ehird> 's just ais5523's BF Joust variant :-)
16:55:49 <ehird> if you want to play, "!bfjoust nameofchallenger code" in here or /msg EgoBot works. http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt has the report :-)
16:55:52 <seanstickle> Back in the day, I dabbled in Corewar, and this seemed interesting to me
16:56:31 <ehird> Yes, but more ... pirate.
16:57:07 <ehird> Hmm... the first comment on http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/05/bf-joust-king-of-hill.html: "BF? this was that whole thing that came out of where perl stands?". I tell you, when the last esolang finally loses its last user, someone will make that tired joke.
17:00:08 <ehird> FromCharacterCode[72 + (29 + (-11 + (5/2 + (-5/24 + (-3/4 + (241/360
17:00:10 <ehird> + (-171/560 + (3779/40320 + (-31/1440 + (197/50400 + (-11521/19958400
17:00:12 <ehird> + (1523*(-12 + #1))/21772800)*(-11 + #1))*(-10 + #1))*(-9 + #1))*(-8
17:00:14 <ehird> + #1))*(-7 + #1))*(-6 + #1))*(-5 + #1))*(-4 + #1))*(-3 + #1))*(-2 +
17:00:16 <ehird> #1))*(-1 + #1)& /@ Range[13]]
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17:07:01 -!- ehird has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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17:27:55 <Taejo> !bfjout Neniam [>-]
17:34:59 <ehird> It's amusing how impomatic can make this channel twice as active :-)
17:35:05 <ehird> Taejo: try "joust"
17:35:41 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniam [>-]
17:35:50 <EgoBot> Score for Neniam: -7 (maximum 25)
17:36:43 <ehird> Taejo: that does not blank any cell
17:36:49 <ehird> Taejo: it also stops immediately
17:36:59 <ehird> Taejo: it just does
17:37:11 <ehird> 0 0 0 0 -> 255 0 0 0 -> 255 255 0 0 ->
17:37:26 <ehird> that makes your opponent possibly slow down
17:37:29 <ehird> but never blanks their flag
17:37:37 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniel [-+]
17:37:46 <ehird> does bfjoust have +?
17:37:47 <Taejo> defend, Neniel, defend
17:37:51 <ehird> wait that was fukyorbrane
17:38:08 <ehird> Taejo: an improvement to consider: if it's non-zero, [-]. otherwise, -
17:38:15 <ehird> that'll set up a lot of guards, but get rid of flags (but also duds)
17:38:48 <EgoBot> Score for Neniel: -11 (maximum 25)
17:38:57 <Taejo> ehird: yeah, just throwing in a few trivialities to get myself going. been a while since I wrote brainfuck
17:39:30 <Taejo> ehird: is it +1 for a win, -1 for a loss, 0 for a draw?
17:41:16 <ehird> I think it's -1 for a draw or something
17:41:20 <ehird> The program is a bit odd and has some bugs, iirc
17:45:19 <Taejo> ehird: struggling to figure out the "otherwise" part of your improvement
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17:46:15 <ehird> Taejo: As in, if the cell we're on is zero, decrement one. This makes it 255, and serves as a barrier. If it's non-zero, [-] to set it to zero. This wipes out flags, but slows down on duds. However, your current program can never win a match, so it's an improvement.
17:46:52 <Taejo> ehird: I meant, I'm struggling to figure out how to implement it
17:47:20 <ehird> Taejo: Hmm. Something like:
17:47:25 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
17:48:07 <MizardX> Is program name the name of an existing program, or one that I make up?
17:48:28 <EgoBot> Score for MzX: -4 (maximum 26)
17:49:14 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniel (>)*10-[[-]>-]
17:49:49 <ehird> Taejo: [-[>(I forget how, but: If non-zero,)[-](else)-(endif)].+]
17:49:51 <ehird> Something like that.
17:50:06 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
17:50:15 <EgoBot> Score for Neniel: -11 (maximum 26)
17:50:24 <ehird> Taejo: But with actual code in place of (placeholders) :P
18:00:07 <Taejo> strange game: the score reported by the bot is different from the one in http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
18:01:09 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniel2 (>)*10-[[-]>>-]
18:01:11 <ehird> That's called a bug. :-)
18:01:31 <EgoBot> Score for Neniel2: -7 (maximum 27)
18:01:46 <ehird> It'd be nice if people prefixed their prog names with their name.
18:02:00 <Taejo> ehird: sorry, never thought about it
18:02:50 -!- Taejo has changed nick to Neni.
18:03:03 <Neni> oh, this nick is registered
18:03:07 -!- Neni has changed nick to Nen.
18:03:12 <Nen> this one too
18:03:48 -!- Nen has changed nick to Ne.
18:04:20 <Ne> I give up, they're all registered
18:04:23 -!- Ne has changed nick to Taejo.
18:05:05 <Taejo> ehird: that's not a prefix of Neniam
18:05:15 -!- Taejo has changed nick to Nenie.
18:05:19 <ehird> Taejo: your pograms are Neniel
18:05:23 <ehird> Nenie is a prefix of Neniel
18:05:47 <Nenie> my first was called Neniam
18:06:09 <Nenie> it's esperanto for never, since it would never win a game
18:06:24 <Nenie> Neniel = no way, nenie = nowhere
18:06:28 <EgoBot> Score for MzX: -6 (maximum 27)
18:08:45 <Nenie> !bfjoust Nenie.hopeful (>->+)*5[[-]>>-]
18:08:46 -!- inurinternet has joined.
18:09:03 <ehird> Nenie: think . is invalid
18:09:21 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX2 >--->+++>--->+[>[-[-[-[++++[+[+[-]]]]]]]--->[-[-[-[++++[+[+[-]]]]]]]+++]
18:09:55 <EgoBot> Score for MzX2: -7 (maximum 29)
18:10:05 <Nenie> !bfjoust Nenie_hopeful (>->+)*5[[-]>>-]
18:10:53 <EgoBot> Score for Nenie_hopeful: -6 (maximum 28)
18:11:55 <EgoBot> Score for Nenie_hopeful: -3 (maximum 29)
18:13:02 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:15:44 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX_fail [-]-[+<[-]-]
18:16:07 <ehird> MizardX: that goes left off tape
18:16:26 <MizardX> I know. I wanted too see how low score you can get
18:16:41 <EgoBot> Score for MzX_fail: -9 (maximum 30)
18:16:58 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish [-].
18:17:56 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish: -11 (maximum 31)
18:18:24 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish2 <
18:18:25 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid >--->+++>--->+[[>][-][<]+]
18:18:30 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish2: -2 (maximum 33)
18:18:30 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -4 (maximum 33)
18:18:41 <ehird> I think my -11 is the worst yet
18:18:52 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish3 [+].
18:18:58 <ehird> I think that may obliterate itself even faster.
18:19:46 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
18:20:05 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish3: -12 (maximum 34)
18:20:09 <lifthrasiir> wait, my bfjoust code didn't match my intention.
18:20:33 <ehird> ofc that's just because there's one more challenger
18:20:58 <ehird> lifthrasiir: mine does better, as it completely erases itself instantly
18:21:04 <ehird> instead of waiting to be killed
18:21:17 <ehird> well not instantly it takes some cycles
18:21:19 <ehird> but you can't do it faster
18:22:29 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX3 >(+[[-]>+])*3
18:23:14 <EgoBot> Score for MzX3: -7 (maximum 35)
18:24:02 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish4 (-)*128
18:24:09 <ehird> Takes less cycles ;).
18:24:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish4: -6 (maximum 36)
18:24:15 <ehird> (Since, iirc, looping has a cos— WTF?
18:25:19 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid2 >--->+++>--->+[>[-]+]
18:25:59 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid2: -10 (maximum 37)
18:26:29 <lifthrasiir> frankly i cannot think of any stretagy for bfjoust
18:26:38 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX4 >+[[>]<[-]>+]
18:26:39 <ehird> lifthrasiir: defend, attack, and another
18:26:46 <EgoBot> Score for MzX4: -4 (maximum 38)
18:27:51 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid3 >--->+++>--->>+[[+>][<]]
18:28:16 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX5 >+[[->+][>]<[-]>+]
18:28:32 <EgoBot> Score for MzX5: -4 (maximum 40)
18:28:59 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid3: -12 (maximum 39)
18:29:10 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid4 >--->+++>--->>+[[+>][<]>]
18:29:50 <ehird> Slow like a green.
18:30:11 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid4: -11 (maximum 41)
18:34:06 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX6 >++++>---->++++>+[>[->>]<[-]>+]
18:34:12 <coppro> !bfjoust copppro1 >+[[-]>+]
18:34:31 <EgoBot> Score for MzX6: -6 (maximum 42)
18:35:06 <EgoBot> Score for copppro1: -8 (maximum 43)
18:35:24 <coppro> how do you actually play someone else?
18:35:30 <coppro> oh, nevermind I get it
18:35:34 <GregorR-L> When you give a program, it p--- yeah :P
18:35:36 <coppro> the score is you versus everyone else
18:35:49 <coppro> anyway to delete a program
18:35:55 <GregorR-L> Yuh, and it gives a breakdown at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
18:36:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: can you delete all of the crap ones :P
18:36:35 <GregorR-L> coppro: It has to finish running them all before it can generate the report, which takes for freaking ever X_X
18:36:56 <coppro> GregorR-L: it shows a blank fully loaded file
18:37:15 <ehird> which blanks report.txt first
18:37:21 <ehird> that's why cat a b>a doesn't work
18:38:23 <MizardX> What does "." do in bfjoust?
18:39:03 <ehird> MizardX: the opponent has to be 0 for two cycles
18:39:08 <ehird> so if you know it's not defending, you can . to nop
18:40:02 <coppro> it's still not loaded :(
18:40:17 <GregorR-L> Somebody rewrite bfjoust.pl in C :P
18:40:30 <GregorR-L> And/or determine why it's so slow.
18:40:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: it's ais523 code
18:40:44 <ehird> i don't know how that's relevant
18:40:48 <ehird> but it's probably very inherent
18:40:53 <ehird> I bet he used a really slow perl feature or something
18:41:19 <ehird> coppro: perl regexs are superoptimized
18:41:26 <GregorR-L> Holy crapsicles, there are like 30 programs here.
18:41:29 <ehird> I wrote a haskell slashes interp, and it was beaten by oerjan's which abused every feature of perl regexs
18:41:33 <ehird> and that's compiled haskell
18:42:23 <coppro> s/^(\(((?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\{(?<BRACE>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup|\{(?&BRACE)\})*)\}(?<AFTER>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%{}\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\))\%(?<NUM>[0-9]+)/$+{NUM} ? "$2$1%".($+{NUM}-1).$+{AFTER} : $+{BRACE}/ex
18:43:17 <pikhq> s/^(\(((?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\{(?<BRACE>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup|\{(?&BRACE)\})*)\}(?<AFTER>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%{}\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\))\%(?<NUM>[0-9]+)/$+{NUM} ? "$2$1%".($+{NUM}-1).$+{AFTER} : $+{BRACE}/ex
18:43:40 <ehird> I am talking about http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
18:43:44 <pikhq> Trying to just select that and send it to someone else.
18:43:46 <ehird> Not whatever you guys are talking about.
18:43:51 <ehird> pikhq: that's not oerjan's code.
18:43:54 <ehird> Maybe it's from bfjoust.pl
18:43:59 <ehird> It looks very ais523
18:44:00 <pikhq> ehird: That's also insane.
18:44:09 <coppro> that paste is from bfjoust, yes
18:44:11 <ehird> pikhq: Eh, there's only one gnarly regexp
18:44:14 <ehird> if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) {
18:44:17 <ehird> which isn't that bad really
18:44:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Just kill all of 'em?
18:44:33 <ehird> Nothing much valuable here
18:44:36 <GregorR-L> When the programs time out, they can take as long as 3 seconds.
18:44:48 <GregorR-L> I'm deleting any of them that timeout, one sec :P
18:45:11 -!- M0ny has joined.
18:47:23 <EgoBot> Score for attack2: -2 (maximum 5)
18:47:30 <ehird> Only 5 challengers now.
18:47:42 <coppro> report.txt is still blank
18:47:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: you should make it delete the worst few challengers every now and then, say
18:47:50 <ehird> coppro: BE. PATIENT!
18:47:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: or just do it manually
18:47:59 <MizardX> Is it possible to get positive score?
18:48:12 <GregorR-L> coppro: That's 25 runs, it's up now.
18:48:51 <ehird> You deleted impomatic's programs.
18:48:55 <ehird> Why did you do that?
18:49:11 <GregorR-L> I reverted everything. Which programs do you want to keep, I didn't delete anything permanently.
18:49:49 <ehird> Only the ones doing badly...
18:49:54 <ehird> (And ones labeled "fail" etc.)
18:50:13 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX >+[[>]<[-]>+]
18:50:14 <EgoBot> Score for MzX: -1 (maximum 6)
18:50:14 <ehird> (Anything with a positive score is absolutely not doing badly :P)
18:50:16 <GregorR-L> It took so freaking long to generate the report I didn't know which ones were doing badly :P
18:50:29 <coppro> !bfjoust staller [.][+.][>[-]+]
18:50:40 <EgoBot> Score for staller: -3 (maximum 7)
18:51:15 <coppro> GregorR-L: why does it rerun every program when a new one is added? Can't it just use the old data?
18:51:41 <GregorR-L> It could, but I wrote it for FYB and FYB was fast enough that that doesn't matter :P
19:00:08 -!- Nenie has changed nick to Taejo.
19:00:36 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
19:00:43 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -1 (maximum 8)
19:03:13 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
19:05:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:07:45 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag (>)*10-[[-]>-]
19:07:50 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -5 (maximum 9)
19:08:14 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag >-(>)*9-[[-]>-]
19:08:20 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -3 (maximum 9)
19:13:10 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.drag >-(>+)*9-[[-]>-]
19:13:17 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_drag: -7 (maximum 10)
19:36:57 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag (>)*10-[>[-]+]
19:36:58 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -2 (maximum 10)
19:37:25 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[>[-]+]
19:37:26 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -4 (maximum 10)
19:37:34 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
19:37:41 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -2 (maximum 10)
20:11:20 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
20:11:31 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid >>+[[+>][+<]>]
20:11:46 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
20:12:04 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid >>+[[+>][<]>>]
20:12:18 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
20:13:19 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -2 (maximum 10)
20:13:44 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:17:34 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:27:46 <ehird> ais523: GregorR-L (stupidly) reset bf joust when I told him to just remove some of the time-out, deliberately-terrible ones.
20:27:55 <ehird> So your challengers are gone. impomatic's too.
20:28:03 <ais523> I was wondering what caused the reset
20:28:08 <ais523> but all my challengers are saved on my hard-drive
20:29:06 <ehird> pikhq: yeah but he just wiped it all
20:29:09 <ehird> that's not weeding out the timeouters
20:29:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:29:44 <ais523> well, defence programs playing each other can often both wait for the opponent to arrive, and the opponent doesn't
20:30:01 <ais523> my interp detects when both interps are stuck in a tight infinite loop (i.e. [])
20:30:05 <ais523> but not other situations
20:31:22 <ehird> He said some opponents lagged up to 3 seconds.
20:31:27 <ehird> So you should really put an upper bound on it.
20:31:42 <ais523> it's deliberately large for various reasons
20:31:52 <ais523> such as wait-for-ages-then-attack-slowly programs
20:33:45 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-]
20:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack5: -2 (maximum 11)
20:34:00 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000
20:34:25 <ehird> ais523: then don't make it overwrite the report while it calculates? :P
20:34:28 <ehird> Or is that a GregorR-L thing
20:34:45 <ais523> it's copied from the fyb interp, that does the same thing
20:34:56 <ais523> but if the report's inaccurate, not showing it seems appropriate
20:35:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend5: -3 (maximum 12)
20:36:00 <pikhq> !bfjoust wait_forever +[.+]
20:36:02 <EgoBot> Score for wait_forever: -3 (maximum 12)
20:36:48 <ais523> pikhq: that doesn't wait forever, it'll suicide after a while
20:37:10 <pikhq> !bfjout wait_forever +[.[-]+]
20:37:11 <ehird> !bfjoust wait_forever [+-]
20:37:18 <ehird> (Your flag starts on.)
20:37:34 <ais523> note that falling off the end of the program isn't a loss
20:37:38 <ais523> just a detected infinite loop
20:37:54 <EgoBot> Score for wait_forever: -5 (maximum 12)
20:38:02 <pikhq> !bfjoust wait_forever [.[-](+)*128]
20:38:11 <EgoBot> Score for wait_forever: -2 (maximum 12)
20:38:14 <ehird> someone with an IBM T221
20:38:20 <ehird> how could you use those things, everything would be so small
20:38:24 <ehird> way too high dpi and res for 22" :-)
20:39:23 <ehird> they paid $3k for it :P
20:39:39 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir.defend1 >[+>+<(+>)*2(+<)*2(+>)*3(+<)*3(+>)*4(+<)*4(+>)*5(+<)*5(+>)*6(+<)*6(+>)*7(+<)*7(+>)*8(+<)*8(+>)*9(+<)*9]
20:39:46 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_defend1: -5 (maximum 11)
20:39:48 <ais523> ehird: maybe they used large and very well-shaped fonts
20:39:49 <pikhq> ehird: You can up the DPI setting, you know.
20:39:53 <ais523> you wouldn't need anti-aliasing with something like that
20:39:57 <ehird> ais523: they didn't
20:39:58 <ehird> http://codehaus.org/~topping/screen.JPG
20:40:02 <ehird> regular windows xp font sizes
20:40:07 <ehird> which are tiny even on this 100dpi display
20:40:14 <ehird> their IDE has a tiny font size too
20:40:43 <pikhq> I've got larger fonts in my terminal.
20:40:50 <pikhq> And that's a freaking 9 point font!
20:41:23 <pikhq> ... And that's a 22" monitor? *Jeeze*.
20:41:34 <ehird> pikhq: I have a 165dpi display.
20:41:37 <ehird> ... it's an iPhone :-)
20:41:45 <ehird> Only 3.5" inches and 480x320, but still.
20:42:24 <ehird> I have a "bog standard" 20" widescreen iMac thingy at 1680x1050.
20:42:30 <ehird> Almost exactly 100dpi.
20:42:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wat
20:42:50 <pikhq> Similar in DPI to my monitor.
20:42:57 <pikhq> Kinda cheap monitor, but whatever.
20:43:32 <pikhq> ehird: I said *similar*.
20:43:42 <ehird> pikhq: The only range actually sold commonly is 84-100...
20:43:47 <ehird> And the difference between 87 and 100 is gigantic.
20:44:04 <ehird> Anything ~94dpi or above is hard to make out the pixels on, but below that it's quite visible.
20:44:11 * pikhq would ideally like, say, a 20" or 22" 1080p monitor...]
20:44:34 <ehird> I'm going for a 22" or 24" ... "1200p" monitor.
20:44:36 <pikhq> That's of the money-cost variety, though.
20:45:10 <ehird> Haven't decided which. The 24"s have about 94-96dpi, which means I don't have to configure that sort of stuff (since it's default on just about everything) and things should be mostly the size that everyone else sees them as, but otoh 24" is bloody huge.
20:45:29 <ehird> I mean, it might actually hurt my neck.
20:45:41 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.novoventus.com/pics/T2211x.jpg pic of a T221
20:45:45 <ehird> illegible as all fuck
20:45:45 <pikhq> I use my monitor for video display, as well.
20:45:58 <pikhq> Be nice to have something slightly larger.
20:46:13 <pikhq> But heck; in a dorm room, 19" works.
20:46:48 <ehird> I just want a high-dpi ~30" screen mounted further behind me, but alas my room does not want that in its geometry.
20:46:53 <ehird> Would be nice, though.
20:47:07 <ehird> pikhq: What was that wow to?
20:47:10 <ehird> The pic or my comment?
20:47:20 <ehird> Completely unusable.
20:47:29 <pikhq> It *could* be usable.
20:47:32 <ehird> pikhq: "The window in the top left is a 1600x1200 remote desktop. :|"
20:47:36 <ais523> ehird: why would you want a screen behind your head?
20:47:40 <ais523> you wouldn't be able to see it
20:47:57 <ehird> pikhq: THEY HAVE A REMOTE DESKTOP BIGGER THAN MY SCREEN IN A SMALL CORNER
20:47:58 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:48:00 <pikhq> Configure your DPI settings right and you'll get some gorgeous fonts.
20:48:16 <pikhq> ehird: THEY COULD DISPLAY 4 1080P VIDEOS ON IT!
20:48:27 <ehird> pikhq: Why the fuck would you want to do that.
20:48:33 <ehird> Unless you have 4 brains.
20:48:42 <ehird> WHO CARES I WANT ONE.
20:49:03 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
20:49:06 <pikhq> You could probably display most of your cable stations on it at once.
20:49:40 <oerjan> !addinterp test perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
20:49:40 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for test!
20:49:44 <ehird> ais523: remember that argument/debate we had about whether "You can X before Y" lets you do X if Y never happens?
20:49:48 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
20:49:58 <oerjan> !addinterp test2 perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
20:49:59 <ehird> ais523: it was agora-related
20:50:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 installed.
20:50:14 <ais523> I just don't remember the details
20:50:16 <ehird> ais523: the internets seem to agree with you (you can't do X): http://cowbird.110mb.com/185/premarital.png
20:50:18 <ais523> although I vaguely remembre it happened
20:50:29 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 deleted.
20:50:38 <ehird> Proposal: {All rule disputes are settled via reddit posts}
20:50:42 <oerjan> !addinterp test2 perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes-int
20:50:44 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 installed.
20:50:48 <ais523> ehird: also, someone tried to set up a paradox in the FRC like that once, it failed but for unrelated reasons
20:50:49 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
20:51:02 <ais523> wait, no, that one succeeded, and the judge had to keep giving provisional judgements
20:51:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 deleted.
20:51:14 <ehird> pikhq: What we need is flipbook monitors.
20:51:36 <oerjan> It seems the nvg web server has suddenly decided to treat *.pl files differently. perhaps it's trying to run them or something...
20:52:21 <ehird> oerjan: did you chmod +x it?
20:52:47 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:53:03 <oerjan> ehird: sure, i did my testing directly in that directory
20:53:17 <ehird> oerjan: chmod -x it then
20:53:34 <oerjan> but i think it was like that previously, and they reinstalled the web server or something
20:53:40 <oerjan> it was down for a day or so
20:54:30 <oerjan> ehird: the thing is, slashes-int has the same permissions but loads as text, so it's definitely extension oriented
20:54:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: rsync and shit?
20:55:05 <bsmntbombdood> it would be cool to have them completely incremental
20:55:13 <oerjan> ehird: in fact chmod a-x helped nothing
20:55:16 <pikhq> rsync does incremental backups.
20:55:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: completely? You want to do a full one every now and then
20:55:31 * oerjan just renames to something else, they use #! lines anyway
20:55:43 <oerjan> i don't think i linked from the wiki to them
20:56:52 <oerjan> there you are. btw that directory has no index.html so you can look into it if you want
20:56:59 <pikhq> Sorry, that would be rdiff-backup.
20:57:19 <pikhq> Which makes incremental rdiff deltas.
20:57:29 <pikhq> (rdiff being the rsync delta algorithm)
20:57:42 <ehird> I might backup nightly. Since my new system will be silent enough to leave on :P
20:57:49 <ehird> Need a fuckload of external storage, though.
20:58:10 -!- azumanga has joined.
20:58:33 <ehird> haven't seen you before you new here? etc.
20:58:53 <bsmntbombdood> i can't imagine incremental backups taking that much space
20:59:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i calculated it at like 2TB
20:59:37 <ehird> i'd probably just buy 4TB of drives and stick 'em in an enclosure, since that's like $200, but drive failure.
20:59:45 <ehird> so i'd prolly want a raid 5 or sth
20:59:48 <azumanga> ehird: Yes, I read a blog post about a brainfuck battle, and a monic, both related to here, and thought that sounded like the kind of channel I might wander in and visit
21:00:02 <ehird> azumanga: Monic? Do you mean nomic?
21:00:18 <ehird> Which one was that then?
21:00:30 <ais523> BF Joust is in here, yes
21:00:34 <ais523> and it originally started in a nomic
21:00:59 <ais523> azumanga: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is the current hill
21:01:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: software raid? nonono, external enclosure RAID.
21:01:07 <ais523> and http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust are the current rules
21:01:14 <ehird> what if my heatsink explodes?
21:01:15 <ais523> which have changed a bit since when it was part of the nomic
21:01:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, external enclosure anyway.
21:01:42 <ehird> also, 1TB drive = $70
21:01:49 <ehird> 5 of them, one as RAID 5 parity = $350
21:01:54 <ehird> + minimal enclosure cost
21:02:03 * ehird calculates it exactly
21:04:15 <azumanga> So, talking about BF joust (if that's allowed!), what happens if you '-' a 0 value?
21:04:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: issue: there aren't any 5-drive enclosures :-)
21:04:23 <ehird> azumanga: we're more off-topic than not :-)
21:04:24 <ais523> azumanga: it becomes 255
21:04:25 <ehird> and it wraps to 255
21:04:31 <ais523> likewise, if you + on 255, it becomes 0
21:04:38 <ais523> that's usual behaviour for 8-bit wrapping BF
21:04:49 <oerjan> ais523: has BF joust been reddited today?
21:04:56 <ehird> oerjan: impomatic'sbloggitted
21:04:58 <ais523> oerjan: not as far as I know, but I haven't looked
21:05:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's only 3TB of storage!
21:05:26 <ais523> yep, number 20 on proggit
21:05:33 <ehird> azumanga: oh, his blog was redditted?
21:05:49 <ehird> ah, posted by impomatic himself :P
21:06:06 <azumanga> Although that post wasn't as popular as hotgoth posting it
21:06:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, there aren't many 3 ones either
21:06:30 <ais523> ooh, impomatic put the code for his jouster on his blog
21:06:36 <coppro> !bfjoust reverseattack >+[[-].->+]
21:06:36 <ais523> which means I can enter it back into EgoBots
21:06:37 <EgoBot> Score for reverseattack: -1 (maximum 11)
21:06:45 <ais523> this is impomatic's, not mine:
21:06:52 <ais523> !bfjoust shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:06:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817716067
21:07:01 <azumanga> At first I thought - would lock, but then things seemed too trivial, as you would have to all - every block you came across to 0.
21:07:05 <EgoBot> Score for shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:07:14 <azumanga> Now you get a choice between choosing to - it or + it until you hit 0
21:07:15 <ais523> the in-channel scores seem to be buggy to some extent
21:08:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: (a) $259.99 (b) it has a fucking fan, don't you think it's a little excessive
21:08:12 <ehird> well, a fan isn't excessiv
21:08:14 <ehird> ebut the whole thing is
21:08:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "Cons: Adding anything more than 2 drives kills performance and RAID10 doesn't work at all. "
21:08:41 <ais523> and impomatic's shortsword still wins overall
21:08:46 <ais523> although it isn't getting 100% wins any more
21:08:53 <ehird> ais523: I thought of an unfilled programs-warring niche
21:08:59 <oerjan> ais523: -2 is the largest score? :D
21:09:01 <ehird> Purely functional battles!
21:09:10 <ais523> oerjan: the score is actually 10
21:09:16 <ais523> just the in-channel scores seem buggy somehow
21:09:19 <ais523> and I haven't worked out how
21:09:31 <coppro> :D reverseattack is the second-best
21:10:08 <ehird> ais523: you should have named it impomatic_shortsword
21:10:12 <ehird> we started prepending our n ames
21:10:38 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_drowstrohs (>-->++)*2(>)*6([+[-]]>)*20
21:10:43 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_drowstrohs: -2 (maximum 11)
21:10:58 <oerjan> <ehird> I wrote a haskell slashes interp, and it was beaten by oerjan's which abused every feature of perl regexs
21:10:59 <ehird> ais523: although the bot should handle that, really
21:11:06 <oerjan> i didn't abuse nothing
21:11:07 <ehird> oerjan: hyperbole :P
21:11:33 <ais523> ehird: /every/ feature of regexes? that would be impressive
21:11:37 <oerjan> it's not like i'm a perl expert
21:11:45 <ehird> 487.009ehird_drowstrohs.bfjoust
21:11:48 <ehird> I AM AT THE TOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
21:11:53 <coppro> huh... shortsword was removed!
21:11:54 <ehird> where it shortsword go?
21:12:05 <ehird> ais523: how many points did it get?
21:12:07 <ehird> more or less than 9
21:12:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: Why did you do that?
21:12:15 <coppro> it got 9 without reverseattack being there
21:12:26 <ais523> and various programs are disappearing
21:12:32 <ehird> so reversing + and - = same
21:12:32 <ais523> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:12:36 <ehird> ais523: GregorR-L is doing something, I suppose
21:12:39 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 11)
21:12:48 <ehird> up to no good, I say
21:13:23 <ehird> Mine just disappeared
21:13:36 <ehird> ais523: maybe he implemented my "eliminate sucky programs automatically"
21:13:43 <ehird> and it's removing the best contenders
21:13:59 <ais523> yep, ehird_shortsword just vanished
21:14:05 <ehird> 21:13 ehird: Mine just disappeared
21:14:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: YOU BROKE IT UNBREAK IT
21:14:23 <azumanga> !bfjoust azumanga_stupid_tape [(+)*7]
21:14:24 <EgoBot> Score for azumanga_stupid_tape: -3 (maximum 11)
21:14:44 <ehird> azumanga: That is remarkably stupid indeed
21:15:00 <ehird> Considering that it only ever hurts itself or helps itself not be defeated by 7 cycles
21:15:04 <ehird> (But lets itself be killed anyway)
21:15:07 <coppro> !bfjoust stabitty (>-)*8[>[-]-]
21:15:08 <EgoBot> Score for stabitty: -2 (maximum 11)
21:15:16 <ehird> coppro: coppro_stabitty, you mean.
21:15:27 <coppro> it'll probably be killed pretty quick
21:15:34 <ehird> nuclear fallout of some kind
21:15:42 <ais523> ooh, I see what's happened to the win announcement
21:15:55 <ais523> the way it's programmed, it counts wins as losses, losses as losses, and wins as draws
21:16:16 <ehird> the board has been 10 elements, always
21:16:24 <ehird> maybe GregorR-L just made it delete shit at random when it grows more
21:16:29 <ais523> an attempt to make it a final hill
21:16:30 <ehird> or via some algorithm that we can't figure out yet
21:16:36 <ais523> but to do that, you should delete the worst program
21:17:17 <ehird> that's what i suggested
21:17:29 <ehird> ais523: yep, the max score has always been 11
21:17:31 <ais523> ehird: that's what the code /appears/ to do
21:17:32 <ehird> GregorR-L broked it
21:17:39 <ehird> ais523: let's read egobot's cod
21:17:41 <azumanga> !bfjoust azumanga_less_stupid >+>++>--->->++>-->+++>+>->[>[-]-]
21:17:48 <EgoBot> Score for azumanga_less_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
21:17:59 <ais523> did you know that EgoBot automatically commits the repo whenever you run bf joust?
21:18:09 <ais523> that's in GregorR's new code
21:18:09 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: all the external 4 drives enclosures are >$200
21:18:12 <ehird> his architecture must fucking suck
21:18:15 <ais523> and link is an hg repo
21:18:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: lame
21:18:29 <ehird> ais523: correction - the link is a symlink or alias to the hg one
21:18:32 <ais523> ehird: it keeps the 10 best programs in the repo all the time, or is meant to
21:18:37 <ehird> the real location is http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt
21:18:51 <ais523> ehird: that's not the real location, that one's the symlink
21:19:15 <ehird> ais523: no, since that one has other, unrelated fil—
21:19:20 <ehird> all the programs' source is available
21:19:25 <ehird> that so defeats half of the tactics
21:19:39 <ais523> anyway, looking at the code
21:19:44 <ehird> with goethe-joust you had to work to find out how other programs worked
21:19:45 <ais523> it does indeed keep the worst 10 programs
21:19:47 <ehird> and how to fight them
21:19:52 <ehird> This page last ShaFuck is a variant of Brainfuck
21:19:54 <ehird> updated on that is impossible to
21:19:56 <ehird> 08 May, 2009. write, as writing any program
21:19:58 <ehird> would require breaking SHA-1.
21:20:04 <ehird> ↑ impossible? not quite...
21:20:08 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity (>-)*8[>[-]-]
21:20:09 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity: -2 (maximum 11)
21:20:10 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:20:26 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:21:00 <ais523> GregorR-L: the bug in your code: the scores are stored from worst to best, and you eliminate array elements starting from element 10
21:21:52 <AnMaster> split_by_group([], Consts, CRefs, Adds, Subs, Muls, Mods, Divs) ->
21:21:52 <AnMaster> {Consts, CRefs, Adds, Subs, Muls, Mods, Divs};
21:21:58 <oerjan> <ehird> ? impossible? not quite... <-- you mean you know how? note i think he removed the 0 block possibility
21:22:24 <ehird> oerjan: by having an incredibly good supercomputer
21:22:26 <ehird> and bruteforcing it
21:22:33 <ehird> completely and utterly infeasible? yes
21:22:35 <ehird> impossible? hell no
21:22:42 -!- Taejo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:23:08 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity2 (>-)*8[>[-][+]-]
21:23:10 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:23:15 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity2: -2 (maximum 11)
21:23:15 <ehird> azumanga: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck
21:23:21 <oerjan> ehird: you can bruteforce SHA-1?
21:23:22 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:23:29 <ehird> You can bruteforce anything, oerjan.
21:23:33 <ehird> Start with null string, then try \0
21:23:46 <ehird> until you get the right SHA-1 sum
21:23:55 <ehird> (as in, the one being the 20 operations you want)
21:24:51 <ais523> you'd probably only need eight strings
21:24:55 <ais523> one for each operation
21:24:58 <ais523> then you could write any program
21:25:07 <coppro> the [+] one beats defend1, but draws with less_stupid
21:25:09 <ehird> no comments allowed
21:25:12 <coppro> still loses to shortsword :(
21:25:17 <ais523> but, you could get the other 19 to cancel each other out
21:25:22 <ais523> there's a parity problem
21:25:30 <ais523> so I suspect you'd need to leave every second element at 0
21:25:37 <ais523> so you can use junk loops to waste an odd number of characters
21:25:38 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately, 19 is not even
21:26:07 <ais523> or, you could simulate 7-bit wrapping
21:26:10 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity2 (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:26:11 <azumanga> Seeing as invalid characters in brainfuck are comments, I don't think shafuck would be too hard actually
21:26:12 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:26:13 <ais523> using [[ << >> -- ++ ]]
21:26:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:26:16 <ais523> and only have to deal with , and .
21:26:17 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity2: 0 (maximum 11)
21:26:20 <ais523> azumanga: comments are banned
21:26:24 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:26:30 <ehird> ais523: you don't need -, due to wrapping
21:26:34 <ehird> and you don't really need IO
21:26:39 <azumanga> Ah, didn't read carefully enough
21:26:43 <ehird> so you just need +, >, < and []
21:26:48 <ais523> hmm... it seems GregorR took out the repo autocommit
21:27:17 <azumanga> I would think there is a good chance shaC would be almost as hard to write :)
21:27:33 <ehird> There are more distinct operations to bruteforce.
21:27:34 <ais523> yes, you'd have to bruteforce for longer on average
21:27:46 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity3 (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:27:48 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:27:54 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity3: -3 (maximum 11)
21:28:01 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -3 (maximum 12)
21:28:06 <EgoBot> Score for suicide: -1 (maximum 13)
21:28:12 <oerjan> ais523: we discussed earlier the case of ShaFuck with 3 bit BF encoding and mostly concluded _that_ was close to feasible, but that the ascii with no comments allowed wasn't unless you could break SHA-1 entirely
21:28:13 <azumanga> But, there is a higher chance you will get a valid part..
21:28:27 <ais523> coppro: I want to see if suicide will end up staying in the hill
21:28:35 <ais523> or if GregorR's fixed that bug yet
21:28:40 <oerjan> because it's so incredibly unlikely you'll ever get a legal program
21:29:01 <ehird> oerjan: but not impossible
21:29:06 <coppro> wow it actually lost to MzX
21:29:27 <azumanga> I wonder what the probability a random string will contain */C/* for some character C, and not contain */ and /* anywhere else
21:29:33 <ais523> well, suicide seems to be working
21:29:35 <azumanga> Because from those, you could stitch together C
21:29:37 <ais523> it lost every single game
21:29:50 <ais523> azumanga: you'd need a /* and a */
21:29:53 <ais523> also, comments count as whitespace
21:30:01 <ais523> so you couldn't do any multi-character identifiers like that
21:30:20 <coppro> !bf coppro_stabbity (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:30:28 <pikhq> Except that one could do it with preprocessor hackery.
21:30:39 <azumanga> Yes, you could look for */##/*
21:30:45 <azumanga> and you'd need a start and finish as well
21:30:45 <pikhq> Token combining is something the preprocessor could do.
21:30:58 <ehird> that's c+cpp, though
21:31:01 <azumanga> But, if you generate random strings, you should find /*... after only 65000 tests or so
21:31:01 <ais523> ooh, the report's now staying up while other things are calculated
21:31:02 <ehird> cpp changes c+cpp into c
21:31:09 <ehird> (it is however a required part of c compilation)
21:31:13 <pikhq> ehird: The preprocessor is part of C.
21:31:18 <ehird> ais523: I wish GregorR-L would actually talk to us about this while doing it...
21:31:33 <coppro> What's the score mean?
21:32:14 <oerjan> ehird: discussing ShaFuck without distinguishing between physical possibility and abstract mathematical possibility is meaningless
21:32:21 <ehird> Amazing awesomesauce.
21:32:25 <ais523> coppro: in-channle, no idea
21:32:28 <ehird> oerjan: it is physically possible!
21:32:33 <ehird> it's just infeasible
21:32:35 <pikhq> ehird: ... Now you're being more pedantic than the average obsessive-compulsive.
21:32:48 <ais523> also, EgoBot hasn't got back to us about the coppro-stabbity program
21:32:53 <coppro> the report appears to just be not updated right now
21:32:56 <ais523> coppro: you wrote !bf not !bfjoust
21:33:06 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:33:08 <ehird> oerjan: if you devoted the whole universe - or most of it, anyway - to the calculation of an ShaFuck program, and let it run for uncountable eons, then you could generate a program
21:33:08 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity: -2 (maximum 11)
21:33:11 <ehird> physically possible.
21:33:17 <ais523> ok, the report is blanking now
21:33:55 -!- wendy has joined.
21:33:59 <coppro> nope, suicide is still there
21:34:07 <ehird> you from impomatic's blog/reddit too?
21:34:12 <ehird> ↑ see, I'm psychic, I am
21:34:13 -!- wendy has quit (Client Quit).
21:34:21 <ehird> someone doesn't like psychics.
21:34:25 <ais523> winning the hill is getting easier and easier
21:34:31 <azumanga> I don't think it's true that SHA1 is a reversible function, so it's very faintly possible there isn't any string which hashes into valid brainfuck (extremely unlikely of course)
21:34:34 <oerjan> ehird: that is not certain, entropy does increase after all
21:34:41 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_totallynotshortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:34:46 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_totallynotshortsword: -2 (maximum 11)
21:35:00 <ais523> theory: we should all write programs which are very good, but lose to the programs there due to having subtle flaws
21:35:02 <ehird> azumanga: I'd wager a bajillion that there are such a strings
21:35:13 <ehird> oerjan: work it out ;-)
21:35:20 <ehird> first calculate the computational power of the universe
21:35:28 <ehird> oerjan: i mean, on a universal scale, SHA-1 isn't that hard to braek
21:35:32 <azumanga> ehird: Yes, but if you want to define such a stupid language, you should make sure it's at least valid
21:35:32 <ehird> 2**50 complexity iirc?
21:35:36 <ehird> there is recent research, oerjan
21:35:39 <ehird> people are moving away from it
21:35:42 <coppro> ais523: exactly how do [] factor in for timing?
21:35:44 <ehird> and it's officially recommended to upgrade to SHA-2 etc
21:36:00 <ehird> so clearly there is a general opinion breaking it is going to get easier, and if you put more or less the whole universe to the task...
21:36:09 <ais523> coppro: they both take one cycle, and look at the value at the start of the cycle; [ jumps to after the ], ] jumps to after the [
21:36:12 <ais523> it's explained on the wiki
21:36:22 <coppro> so [-] takes 2 cycles to loop?
21:36:33 <azumanga> You'd probably be better of putting all the mathematicans on earth on the task, and see if they can shake out any more weaknesses
21:36:42 <ais523> in terms of which command runs on each cycle
21:37:20 <ehird> azumanga: even so— the universe could probably crack SHA-1 quite quickly
21:37:28 <ehird> it's not as if it's the most difficult hash function to break evarr
21:39:01 <azumanga> Would be interesting to try to do shafuck with comments allowed, as that language is probably implementable (although would still take a while)
21:39:25 <oerjan> azumanga: that would be quite easy as i recall
21:39:28 <coppro> I wonder if this is just a creative suicide
21:39:49 <ehird> azumanga: er, shafuck is implemented
21:39:55 <ehird> anyway, it'd be trivial
21:40:05 <ehird> you just have to get one of the bf chars in, and avoid bf chars anywhere else in the string
21:40:10 <azumanga> ehird: I mean, it would be possible to actually write programs in
21:40:10 <ais523> how did suicide end up above MzX in the rankings, I wonder?
21:40:12 <ehird> it's the kind of thing you'd hit just hashing random strings
21:41:28 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_sleeper []+.-[>[-].+]
21:41:45 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_sleeper: -7 (maximum 11)
21:42:12 <oerjan> azumanga: 248^19/256^20 ~= 0.0021368922769481, that's the probability of hitting something that has precisely the character you want first, and the rest comments
21:42:25 <oerjan> that's essentially trivial to hit
21:42:43 <azumanga> It even more trivial than that, because it just has to be any character, without other ones
21:43:14 <oerjan> well, multiply that by 20 to put the desired character anywhere
21:43:15 <coppro> hey, my program never loses!
21:43:35 <ais523> coppro: against an antihill
21:43:46 <ehird> azumanga: that's what a comment is
21:43:55 <ehird> coppro: the worst programs
21:44:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:44:32 <ehird> it's a nice hill, ais523
21:44:39 <ehird> it probably takes more skill to beat the absolute worst programs
21:44:47 <ehird> how can you beat something that kills itself in one cycle?
21:44:51 <ehird> (beat for worseness, that is)
21:44:58 <coppro> let's try it against the sword
21:45:02 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_sleeperagain []+.-[>[-].+]
21:45:04 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:45:13 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -3 (maximum 12)
21:45:28 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_sleeperagain: -7 (maximum 11)
21:46:06 <oerjan> ais523: weren't the flags initialized to 128? so it would take more than one cycle to suicide
21:46:21 <ais523> oerjan: it suicides by going off the end of the tape
21:46:24 <ais523> rather than sinking its own flag
21:47:15 <ehird> ais523: another way to suicide:
21:47:31 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_defying_the_conventions_of_antimoral_narrative_in_a_postmodernist_scientific_framework ]
21:47:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_defying_the_conventions_of_antimoral_narrative_in_a_postmodernist_scientific_framework: -11 (maximum 11)
21:47:33 <coppro> is going off actually death, or is it just you wait until your flag drops?
21:47:33 <ais523> ehird: that's not a suicide, but an invalid program
21:47:37 <ais523> so it draws with everything
21:47:39 <ais523> coppro: going off is death
21:47:43 <ais523> that's how defence programs work
21:47:44 <ehird> i like my name, anyway
21:47:48 <ais523> they try to trick the opponent into going off
21:48:02 <ehird> ais523: oh, i thought they just tried to make them timeout
21:48:05 <ehird> but that makes sense
21:48:11 <ehird> (that was correcting you)
21:48:34 <ais523> basically, they exploit the two-cycles thing
21:48:42 <ais523> to leave their flag at 0 for one cycle
21:48:50 <ais523> so the opponent thinks they've sunk the flag, and continue with >
21:49:06 * coppro tries to work out a real sleeper, which was his intent
21:49:27 <ais523> coppro: ais523_defence5 is a sleeper
21:49:59 <ais523> although it tries to detect if the opponent is a sleeper too
21:50:07 <ais523> and uses a counter-sleeper strategy in that case
21:54:58 * oerjan is almost tempted to register on reddit to get rid of the crap norwegian subreddits they recently added to my menu
21:55:30 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_realsleep ([{>+[>[-]]<}]+.-)*15[>[-]+]
21:55:31 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_realsleep: -10 (maximum 11)
21:56:23 <coppro> eh, let's wait for Gregor to fix things
21:57:47 <oerjan> dammit they're all empty or just spam, except no whose top article is a month old
21:58:39 <ehird> oerjan: Register and participate in pun threads.
21:58:48 <ehird> Except always make the pun mathematics-related.
21:58:53 <ehird> No matter what the actual topic of the thread.
21:58:53 <oerjan> well that _is_ somewhat tempting
21:59:02 <ehird> Tenuous links give extra points.
21:59:31 <oerjan> except the mathematical part
21:59:44 <oerjan> unless it really fits, of course
22:02:18 <oerjan> dammit changing the language to english works for everything except that menu
22:03:04 <AnMaster> hm I think I'm writing a simple CAS here...
22:03:12 <oerjan> oh wait there's a checkbox - it worked!
22:03:34 * oerjan now can happily press technology without using the MORE link again
22:03:41 <AnMaster> what is the best way to represent a polynom in a computer, to be able to simplify it
22:03:42 <fizzie> Since you people seem to be present here right now; [in case there are fungot-related issues or whatever] if someone happens to wonder why I don't seem to be here; I'll be away from the internets (silly phone doesn't do wifi, roaming-gprs is overly expensive, don't want to carry any unnecessary stuff) vacationing in Italy for 2008-05-24 -> 2008-06-04.
22:03:42 <fungot> fizzie: programmers loose their right to arm bears
22:04:02 <AnMaster> currently I represet it as a tree of operations.
22:04:35 <AnMaster> (and references and constants and so on)
22:04:35 <fizzie> (Now some sleep, wake-up time in order to catch the plane is in four hours.)
22:04:52 * AnMaster thinks either oerjan or ais523 should know more about this.
22:05:11 <ais523> AnMaster: polynomials are often represented as a list of coefficients
22:06:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: you might want to keep associative operations such as addition and multiplication with lists at their level
22:06:44 <oerjan> and possibly sort the lists
22:06:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I want to constant fold as much as possible too
22:07:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: well you would traverse the lists for the parts that are constants
22:08:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's just that with (a+b)+(c+d), mathematically a,b,c and d are mostly at the same level
22:08:31 <oerjan> also, you may want to treat subtraction as addition of a negative, for related reasons
22:09:09 <AnMaster> you can't represent 5*(a + 4) + 9 * (a + (4 * c)) as a polynom right?
22:09:20 <oerjan> and division as multiplication by ... hm, you could actually use a standard quotient of products thing
22:09:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: well after rearranging, of course you can
22:10:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, and that is probably what my question is really about
22:10:33 <AnMaster> given such an equation, how would you in a computer program turn it into a simplified polynom form
22:10:50 <AnMaster> equation isn't right word is it?
22:11:11 <oerjan> term? after using distributive law enough you should have a sum of products
22:11:22 <AnMaster> if that is the English term for it
22:12:30 <oerjan> on the other hand, using the distributive law where it _doesn't_ help can be expensive
22:12:38 <oerjan> such as when factorizing polynomials
22:12:58 <oerjan> because distributivity is not easily reversible
22:13:26 <oerjan> but grouping associative operations is harmless in comparison
22:15:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:26:33 * AnMaster now wonders how to best code the distributive law in software...
22:27:33 <ais523> AnMaster: you have powerful pattern matching, don't you?
22:27:36 <ais523> you could just pattern-match it
22:32:55 * oerjan notes that this is essentially sequence in the [] monad *ducks*
22:33:48 <oerjan> mind you that is assuming it's a sum of a list whose elements are each products of a list
22:34:06 <oerjan> er the other way around
22:34:10 <AnMaster> how do you represent division, in general...
22:34:24 <AnMaster> multiply by inverse would work I guess
22:34:42 <AnMaster> (if it can be constant folded that is)
22:34:43 <oerjan> if you have division it's not a polynom any longer >:)
22:35:16 <oerjan> however you frequently simplify it to a single division of two polynoms
22:35:42 <AnMaster> maybe better would be to simplify general expressions... hm
22:36:06 <AnMaster> (possibly turning it into polynoms, if it is possible)
22:37:13 <oerjan> there are of course an infinite number of additional rules to use as you add an infinite number of additional functions...
22:38:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm? You mean like handle sqrt(), sin(), cos() and so on? Not needed here. Just need to handle + - * / mod
22:39:25 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:39:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I'm working on known integers
22:39:48 <oerjan> if you do integer stuff you need to be much more careful with /
22:40:38 <ehird> 22:03 fizzie: Since you people seem to be present here right now; [in case there are fungot-related issues or whatever] if someone happens to wonder why I don't seem to be here; I'll be away from the internets (silly phone doesn't do wifi, roaming-gprs is overly expensive, don't want to carry any unnecessary stuff) vacationing in Italy for 2008-05-24 -> 2008-06-04. ← why would you ever leave finland
22:40:39 <fungot> ehird: you could read from files *shrugs*... but it does matter in that signed integer overflow is undefined behaviour, instead of
22:40:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, and yes I need to take care of when it isn't divisable.
22:42:52 <oerjan> if this is BF then your mods are probably all by 256 and you may want to be doing all the calculation in (mod 256) arithmetic
22:43:02 <ais523> which is easy in C, just use unsigned char
22:43:15 <ais523> and is relatively easy in many other languages
22:46:51 <oerjan> / still is hairy though. modular inverse generally exists when the divisor is odd, otherwise it gets even hairier
22:47:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:48:27 <zzo38> Even User:Patashu has ask if I was submit interpreter to golf.shinh.org and I try, but I can't!
22:49:06 * oerjan guesses interpreters are added on a case by case basis?
22:49:36 <zzo38> But they won't even answer it.
22:51:40 <zzo38> You look at "WHOIS shinh shinh" they are idle for 132416 second (1.5 days approx) Can you try to send message later please? Because I can't.
22:51:49 <oerjan> btw you are not registered. are you aware that unregistered users generally cannot send private messages on freenode?
22:52:29 <ehird> zzo38: well, shinh might just be doing other things...
22:52:33 <zzo38> It seens to work I sent to "oerjan" the CTRL+A PING and reply.
22:52:42 <ehird> ctcp != other private messages
22:52:48 <ehird> zzo38: Say "hi" to me in /msg
22:52:54 <ehird> Then tell me when you have in here
22:53:00 <ehird> I'll tell you if I've got it
22:53:06 <ehird> zzo38: PRIVMSG ehird :hi
22:53:20 <oerjan> shinh's idling does fit a weekend break pretty well, doesn't it
22:53:31 <zzo38> I can send messages to PocketMonsterIRC on Freenode and also multiple widnows I have connected is that because of the same address or something like that?
22:53:46 <ehird> it worked your message to me
22:53:52 <zzo38> It send the message OK?
22:53:57 <oerjan> zzo38: there's a flag people can set whether they want to accept unregistered pms or not
22:54:02 <ehird> zzo38: yes, although see oerjan
22:54:08 <ehird> shinh may have set the flag, or may just be busy doing other things, etc
22:54:14 <ehird> zzo38: he may have an email address
22:54:31 <zzo38> The help on this IRC won't list any user flags and modes only the list of commands.
22:54:52 <ehird> zzo38: it's in the connect splurge
22:54:59 <zzo38> I even tried on the channel before and still got no reply on the corresponding channel either
22:55:22 <zzo38> Is there a way to repeat the connect text before the MOTD
22:55:37 <ehird> and /shrug, people are just busy, doing other things, can't help, etc
22:56:12 <zzo38> I should just reconnect in other window to read it
22:56:28 <oerjan> zzo38: btw there is a MemoServ, although i've never used it, i don't know if it works when people are just idle and not logged off
22:56:46 <ehird> only when they log in, I think
22:56:55 -!- azumanga has quit.
22:57:58 <zzo38> I didn't see a list of the user-modes
22:58:14 <zzo38> How can MemoServ function be activated
22:58:20 <ehird> PRIVMSG MemoServ :HELP
22:58:27 <oerjan> zzo38: i saw about this flag in the freenode faq on freenode.org, i think
22:58:40 <ehird> :pratchett.freenode.net 004 aaaaaaaaaaa pratchett.freenode.net hyperion-1.0.2b aAbBcCdDeEfFGhHiIjkKlLmMnNopPQrRsStTuUvVwWxXyYzZ01234569*@ bcdefFhiIklmnoPqstv
22:58:42 <ehird> :pratchett.freenode.net 005 aaaaaaaaaaa IRCD=dancer CAPAB CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=bdeIq,k,lfJD,cgijLmnPQrRstz CHANLIMIT=#:20 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bdeI:50 MODES=4 STATUSMSG=@ KNOCK NICKLEN=16 :are supported by this server
22:58:46 <ehird> :pratchett.freenode.net 005 aaaaaaaaaaa SAFELIST CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANNELLEN=30 TOPICLEN=450 KICKLEN=450 KEYLEN=23 USERLEN=10 HOSTLEN=63 SILENCE=50 :are supported by this server
22:58:47 <zzo38> O thanks that helps.
22:58:49 <ehird> that contains the modes ... somewhere
22:59:22 <oerjan> i vaguely recall it's that long alphabet list
22:59:43 <oerjan> or wait there's also the CHANMODES list
23:00:29 <oerjan> lambdabot was nice, it told about messages when you talked again
23:00:33 <zzo38> I can't send by MemoServ because I am not log in
23:00:42 <oerjan> but of course it only works for the channels it's in
23:01:21 <zzo38> Can someone else try to send the message to them (using any method of communication) about this FlogScript one day later on when you think it is a good time to do so?
23:01:24 <ehird> zzo38: why not log in?
23:01:27 <oerjan> zzo38: well that sort of makes sense, since otherwise it would be a way around the flag (which is mostly antispam measure, i think)
23:01:39 <zzo38> Because I can't log in.
23:01:53 <ehird> PRIVMSG NickServ :REGISTER insertapasswordhere
23:02:00 <ehird> PRIVMSG NickServ :IDENTIFY insertthepasswordhere
23:02:06 <ehird> or when you connect
23:02:08 <ehird> PASS insertthepasswordhere
23:02:09 <zzo38> I have the user and nick command, I try help but they don't list the command of login do I need a password also
23:02:20 <ais523> zzo38: you log in by sending a private message to NickSer
23:02:27 <ehird> ais523: or PASS on login
23:02:37 <ais523> yes, or by using PASS before USER and NICK on login
23:02:59 <zzo38> Do I need to give the password at both the connection and NickServ? Maybe I can try to get help of NickServ
23:03:00 <oerjan> zzo38: but you need to register with NickServ before the PASS will work later
23:03:17 <ais523> zzo38: one or the other
23:03:21 <oerjan> zzo38: no just one once you have it up and running
23:03:24 <zzo38> O, there's the help message
23:03:29 <ais523> but you need to create your account with NickServ, you can't create an account during connection
23:04:26 <zzo38> What necessary information is there to know before creating the account? Does it expire sometimes, or anything else that would be relevant to know
23:04:40 <oerjan> zzo38: it expires after 60 days unused
23:05:02 <zzo38> So I would need to register again? Do I need e-mail to register
23:05:05 <ais523> on Freenode, it expires if it's unused for 60 days, and someone requests it to be expired
23:05:17 <ais523> and you don't need an email to register here, or at least didn't when I registered
23:05:33 <zzo38> O, so only if someone requests it after 60 days.
23:05:34 <oerjan> my nick was someone else's expired nick when i joined
23:05:53 <zzo38> Now, how to compile rawirc in Windows so that it can use color-codes and stuff like that (but make it compatible with Linux also)?
23:06:13 <oerjan> zzo38: you can register you email to get sent a new password if you forget it though, iirc
23:07:14 <zzo38> I want to make rawirc run on Windows and including display asterisks if you type in the PASS command, I don't want it to display my password on the screen
23:07:42 <zzo38> I would use rawirc if I can compile it. On Linux it would be easy to compile but I don't currently have Linux
23:08:11 * oerjan knows nothing about rawirc
23:09:34 <pikhq> oerjan: Gregor wrote it.
23:09:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:09:43 <ehird> zzo38: you'd have to modify it
23:09:46 <ehird> instead of justcompiling it
23:09:49 <zzo38> rawirc is a simple C program with escape codes for colors. But Windows doesn't have escape codes for colors, and anyways it is a bit harder to compile a C program on Windows because you have to check for correct library and stuff like that. Or, will it compile correctly on Cygwin? I have Cygwin also.
23:09:54 <pikhq> It's basically telnet with IRC highlighting and a couple of shortcuts for common IRC commands.
23:10:04 <Sgeo> ehird, I was close to googling that reference before remembering where I saw it from
23:10:05 <ais523> zzo38: Windows can handle VT-100 escape codes in its terminal
23:10:12 <ehird> Oh, rawirc highlights?
23:10:13 <pikhq> zzo38: I'd imagine it'd work right in Cygwin.
23:10:32 <pikhq> ehird: That's half the point.
23:10:44 <zzo38> If I just go to Cygwin and use the gcc command will it work, or does it need to be indicated the library to link with?
23:10:54 <ehird> pikhq: Does rawirc automatically talk to the current channel if your command is inapplicable? That's basically the only thing I need in a client :P
23:10:57 <ehird> zzo38: No libraries are used.
23:11:11 <ehird> gcc rawirc.c -levent -o rawirc
23:11:34 <zzo38> OK thanks for telling me what parameters it need
23:11:51 <pikhq> It's in the comment block at the start.
23:12:30 <zzo38> ehird: No it doesn't talk to current channel automatically. IFMUD does do that and I really don't like that feature of IFMUD. In IFMUD a " mark indicates saying text so I don't want to repeat the command that is wrong to public
23:12:56 <ehird> Yeah, but it's irritating having to type PRIVMSG #esoteric : all the time.
23:13:16 -!- cscotta has joined.
23:13:20 <zzo38> ehird: I think rawirc even currently push CTRL+P for the macro PRIVMSG so that you don't have to type every time
23:13:34 <ehird> Ctrl-P #esoteric :is still pretty bad
23:13:40 <ehird> You new? from reddit? impomatic's blog?
23:13:42 <zzo38> I know in the Windows command window it accepts F2 to repeat up to and not including the indicated character (a colon in this case).
23:13:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> it worked your message to me <-- there is a mode for it. +E iirc
23:14:06 <ehird> AnMaster: as oerjan said before and after
23:14:20 <zzo38> Still, I will improve rawirc with the ability to write more macros in the configuration file, so that you can make macro for more things.
23:14:30 <cscotta> ehird: Hi - yep, saw it on the blog via proggit. Figured I'd drop in to check out the madness ;-).
23:14:52 <ehird> cscotta: Currently, it's incredibly broken, in that it retains the 10 _worst_ programs, and the score display is all wrong
23:14:59 <ehird> It'd be fixed, except GregorR-L seems to be sleeping or something.
23:15:15 <ehird> However, if you want to compete with the worst programs, feel free. !bfjoust program code, and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
23:15:40 <zzo38> In netcat I just type F2 colon colon to get the writing "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" repeated for me if that is the last command, and if it isn't I will use arrow keys to select one
23:15:48 <AnMaster> <oerjan> if this is BF then your mods are probably all by 256 and you may want to be doing all the calculation in (mod 256) arithmetic <-- yep. And yes division and mod are hairy. I don't even know how to detect loops that do that yet. I just want to be prepared for when I do. esotope-bfc's Expr class can theoretically handle / and mod too, but last I looked such expressions were never generated iirc
23:15:55 <cscotta> ehird: thanks. working on another project at the moment, but i'll check it out.
23:16:17 <zzo38> But only windows netcat. On Linux it is necessary to use readline library
23:16:33 <zzo38> And I'm not even sure what the special key-codes are for readline library anyways.
23:16:47 <ehird> Ctrl-A for start of line, Ctrl-E for end.
23:16:50 <ehird> Up goes up in history, down down.
23:16:54 <ehird> Left and right go left and right.
23:17:09 <zzo38> Can it do like F2 in Windows does? I'm just curious
23:17:30 <ehird> It's exactly what F2 does on Windows, I think. ais523 might know.
23:17:55 <ais523> I don't know what F2 does in Windows
23:18:02 <ais523> it tends to differ from program to program
23:18:14 <ais523> and I don't know what it does in Windows terminal
23:18:30 <ais523> cscotta: also, [[e:BF Joust]] is the rules
23:18:33 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:18:50 <ais523> err, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
23:19:00 -!- ais523 has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | You mean we've been on reddit /twice/ now? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:19:09 <ehird> Three times, maybe.
23:19:17 <ehird> Also, impomatic was on reddit.
23:19:20 -!- impomatic has joined.
23:19:38 <oerjan> ah the villain appears
23:19:49 <ais523> the hill's been "fixed" to be finite
23:19:49 <ehird> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/domain/esolangs.org
23:19:58 <ehird> plus 1, for impomatic's
23:20:01 <ais523> ehird: #esoteric the channel, I mean
23:20:07 <ais523> and I told him on his blog
23:21:17 <ais523> I tried, but then I realised I could never get blogspot to work
23:21:35 <ehird> heh, one of those submissions was me
23:21:44 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/ ← terribly popular
23:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird more: http://www.reddit.com/domain/esoteric.voxelperfect.net
23:21:57 <ehird> AnMaster: true 'nuf
23:21:58 <impomatic> Oh? It works in most browsers. Should even allow anonymous replies
23:22:09 <ehird> impomatic: ais523 is probably using w3m or lynx or something
23:22:16 <ehird> or some firefox extension like NoHTML or something
23:22:35 <ais523> doesn't work in Firefox (even messing with NoScript to allow things) or Epiphany default install
23:23:02 <ehird> you mean doesn't work on your firefox
23:23:13 <impomatic> Finite is good :-) At least the rubbish programs will get pushed off instead of sitting there forever
23:23:23 <ehird> impomatic: the good programs, you mean
23:23:26 <ehird> due to the brokenosity
23:23:29 <ais523> well, atm the good programs are getting pushed off
23:23:38 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
23:24:30 <zzo38> Like, even, removing first line of input with FlogScript program )(;
23:24:43 <zzo38> And to duplicate each line: ".P,
23:24:53 <ehird> ais523: http://www.rottytooth.com/velatotracks/print_h_5.mid ← sounds even nicer than the forte hello world
23:24:56 <impomatic> I've got copies of all the programs from yesterday
23:25:40 <ais523> ehird: the forte one is shorter, I think
23:25:48 <ehird> this one is prettier
23:25:52 <ais523> it's a different style
23:25:56 <zzo38> One day I will use Linux instead. But not today. However I don't like the one that already exist so I will write my own Linux distribution and window manager and stuff like that.
23:26:08 <ehird> zzo38: have fun with that
23:26:35 <zzo38> I even wrote my own web-browser software so probably I can write a window-manager also
23:26:52 <ehird> is modifying an existing browser a bit really making a web browser from scratch?
23:26:56 <pikhq> It helps to start using Linux so you have reason to write a window manager.
23:26:59 <ehird> but the hard part is the whole distribution thing
23:27:03 <ehird> will you write your own package manager too?
23:27:08 <ehird> and a complete set of packages?
23:27:10 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
23:27:14 <zzo38> O, and I should also write the widget-set, it could be based on the original Xaw widget set, but you can't tell the difference very easily each widget so I can use colors for tell the difference
23:27:25 <zzo38> What's a build farm
23:27:26 <pikhq> ehird: A package manager isn't hard to do.
23:27:31 <pikhq> Granted, a *good* one is damned hard...
23:27:44 <ehird> zzo38: by making your own widget set, you have just made every other application in the world not fit in with the widget set.
23:27:49 <pikhq> zzo38: You are reinventing the wheel poorly.
23:27:58 <ehird> zzo38: i propose that you invent your own computer and electronics too
23:28:03 <ehird> also, fundamental physics
23:28:04 <ais523> actually, firefox will try to use native widgets, I think
23:28:15 <ehird> ais523: i doubt it'll do that if he makes up his own widget set.
23:28:22 <ais523> it could be fun if it did, though
23:28:35 <ais523> my guess is it'll try, but not necessarily succeed
23:28:43 <ehird> ais523: it has a predefined set of widget sets
23:28:44 <pikhq> ais523: That's because Firefox has Cocoa, GTK+, and Win32 widget backends for XUL.
23:28:46 <ehird> not any heuristics or anything
23:28:59 <pikhq> (Qt widgets are a work in progress)
23:29:32 <zzo38> And my own Linux will have no icons. We don't need any icons. And scroll-bar can be left-mouse-button to up/left, right-mouse-button right/down, middle to select the exact position. And the window decoration needs only one thing, a title bar with no icons or buttons. You can different click, single or double and keyboard modifier keys to change function. Also use LOGO+other keys for commands in the window manager
23:29:53 <ehird> zzo38: Ohhhkay have fun with that I'll see you in a few years.
23:30:01 <pikhq> zzo38: What benefit do you get out of using Linux?
23:30:15 <ehird> pikhq: Presumably he can't micromanage Windows.
23:30:16 <ais523> LOGO in the window manager?
23:30:20 <pikhq> You're writing everything but Linux, GCC, Gas, make, autoconf, autotools, and coreutils.
23:30:21 <ehird> ais523: he means windows logo key
23:30:29 <ais523> I like my interpretation better
23:30:39 <ehird> zzo38: X is the thing that manages windows and drives the display and graphics card
23:30:42 <pikhq> ... At which point, why even keep X?
23:30:42 <ehird> you want to rewrite that too, right?
23:31:04 <zzo38> Linux is much better than Windows and Linux is even FOSS also! But I don't like the modern widget-sets and modern window-managers and stuff so therefore I have to write my own. But I can make improvement of it, like color to indicate what type of widget it is, and so on.
23:31:27 <zzo38> By LOGO I mean the LOGO key (also called the WINDOWS key or the WIN key)
23:31:39 <ais523> zzo38: it's called "super" on Linux
23:31:45 <zzo38> Everything is still using X so therefore X should still be used
23:32:04 <ehird> zzo38: everything's using non-zzo38-widgets
23:32:10 <ehird> so therefore they should be used instead too
23:32:21 <ehird> everything's also using non-zzo38 window managers, too
23:32:29 <zzo38> And the CONTEXT key (also called the APPLICATION key by Microsoft documentation, but I call it the CONTEXT key) called something else in Linux?
23:32:37 <ais523> window manager doesn't normally matter for compatibility, though
23:32:42 <ais523> unless it tries to do compositing
23:32:49 <pikhq> zzo38: That's the menu key.
23:32:55 <ais523> ehird: it's the one with a symbol looking like a mouse pointing at a menu
23:32:59 <ehird> how on earth is that a "context" ke
23:33:06 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know what it's called
23:33:09 <pikhq> ehird: Pulls up the context menu.
23:33:09 <ais523> ehird: "context menu key"
23:33:12 <ehird> AnMaster: zzo38 is always serious :-)
23:33:25 <zzo38> But if I can change the keyboard I would just write the words LOGO and CONTEXT on those keys instead of having pictures which may be trademarked or copyrighted
23:33:38 <ehird> to represent a logo being on it
23:33:53 <ais523> ehird: deliberate misspelling?
23:34:04 <pikhq> zzo38: With all the effort this will involve, why bother writing it on Linux?
23:34:05 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I know someone more extreme than me:
23:34:05 <pikhq> Write it on Plan 9.
23:34:05 <pikhq> It needs a good DE.
23:34:07 <ehird> ais523: Paula Bean
23:34:13 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, rio is perfect.
23:34:16 <AnMaster> ehird, <Zaba> AnMaster, everything I need a window manager to do is spawn me a terminal or two <Zaba> AnMaster, everything can be launched from a terminal <Zaba> and that also doesn't require some cryptic menus or some such <Zaba> moving *shudder* mouse
23:34:18 <ehird> Or near perfect, at least.
23:34:19 <ais523> yes, I know what the typo means, but it's like the AGAINT thing
23:34:23 <pikhq> ehird: As a window manager, sure.
23:34:29 <ais523> if a typo has its own meaning, but is plausible, how do you know if someone meant to make it?
23:34:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the thoughtprocess behind ratpoison.
23:34:44 <ehird> AnMaster: mouse-haters should be shot. by mice
23:34:49 <zzo38> With different window-manager and widgets and stuff, other software on Linux and with X can still work OK. But if it is not X then it will stop working.
23:35:03 <ehird> ais523: you can't. I vote AGAINT your thought process
23:35:08 <ais523> zzo38: why don't you port Cygwin to Linux?
23:35:17 <ais523> that way you can emulate X, for X-dependent programs
23:35:22 <ehird> The universe just exploded.
23:35:34 <ais523> ehird: after all, WINE's been ported to Windows...
23:35:47 <pikhq> zzo38: Y'know, the alternative graphics layers implement X.
23:35:47 <zzo38> There is no point to port Cygwin to Linux, just recompile the program on Linux and it should work
23:35:59 <zzo38> What are "alternative graphics layers"
23:36:08 <pikhq> Y Windows, DirectFB.
23:36:11 <AnMaster> ehird, also he is always concerned about having un-needed apps installed. Trying to remove everything un-needed. All the time. (Personally I only clean up no longer used programs and such when disk space starts getting low... about twice / year)
23:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster: sounds like a person obsessed with administrivia
23:37:00 <ehird> AnMaster: just don't let him know about this place and I'll be just fine
23:37:04 <pikhq> Sounds like a person that just needs to shut up and use Gentoo.
23:37:23 <ehird> yeah Ic ould have guessed that
23:37:26 <AnMaster> has about 100 packages in world.
23:37:28 <ehird> he's exactly the type to use gentoo
23:37:31 <pikhq> Emphasis on the "shut up" bit.
23:37:39 <ehird> That's a really minimal Debian server install.
23:37:45 <pikhq> ehird: Not including dependencies.
23:38:22 <ehird> wow, people actually use directfb
23:38:37 <AnMaster> ehird, on gentoo the world file is a list of packages you installed explicitly.
23:38:37 <pikhq> I seem to have 363 packages in world.
23:38:48 <AnMaster> # wc -l /var/lib/portage/world
23:38:55 <zzo38> Porting WINE to Windows is a bit useful because some of the stuff is used in ReactOS also
23:39:15 <ais523> zzo38: not just that, some windows programs work better in WINE than in Windows
23:39:38 <ehird> I've used mingw on os x befor
23:39:39 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Zaba, what about looking at images. <Zaba> AnMaster, usually, fbi from fbida, but when in X, feh <AnMaster> browsing the web? <Zaba> AnMaster, mostly w3m, but when in X, firefox
23:39:42 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, sometimes it actually does. And I don't know why
23:39:46 <ehird> and mingw is a port of gcc to windows
23:39:53 <ehird> I used it to compile a program for a windows user
23:39:55 <AnMaster> yes, he doesn't normally use X even
23:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: can I stab him?
23:40:14 <pikhq> ehird: I encourage it.
23:40:35 <ehird> pikhq: thank you for your support. can I have a stabbing device?
23:40:48 <ais523> if you like pointless ports, I'll point out that mingw's been ported to cygwin
23:41:02 * pikhq tosses ehird a comprehensive documentation on C++ and a knife
23:41:03 <AnMaster> ehird, he is actually quite nice to talk with when he doesn't talk about such things. Like when he talks about C programming or other stuff instead.
23:41:13 <pikhq> The C++ documentation is for optional bludgeoning after you stab.
23:41:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I will tell him about dvtm next time I see him!
23:41:31 <ehird> AnMaster: i can imagine his attitude to c programming
23:41:36 <ehird> remove everything but inline assembly!
23:41:41 <ehird> that's all I need a c compiler to do
23:41:43 <ehird> no cryptic manuals
23:41:46 <pikhq> Must make IOCCC seem sane.
23:41:47 <ehird> or *shudder* command line options
23:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, portable, clean code. Hates macros.
23:42:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Ooh boy. Please, sir, point me in his direction.
23:42:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: The one is damned hard to do without the other.
23:42:12 <ehird> I am absolutely not not not not going to stab him.
23:42:49 <pikhq> At bare minimum, you need macros to get dynamic libraries to work with both Win32 and !Win32.
23:43:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, with macros I meant #define foo(...), that is function like macros
23:43:05 <ehird> pikhq: Win32 doesn't count as an operating system!!11111111111
23:43:11 <ehird> A PROGRAM IS PORTABLE IF IT WORKS ON BSD 4.3
23:43:13 <AnMaster> as opposed to very trivial #include/#ifdef
23:43:14 <pikhq> ehird: It's an API.
23:43:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I think he uses FreeBSD 7.x on his other computer
23:43:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then he has massive ifdefs at every function declaration?
23:43:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that other computer being a headless mac mini acting as a server!
23:44:04 <ehird> I can't imagine him buying a mac.
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23:44:20 <AnMaster> ehird, he lives in Russia. Sometimes stuff is hard to get hold of there.
23:44:25 <ehird> AnMaster: otoh, linus torvalds' wife owns a mac mini
23:44:28 <AnMaster> So I guess he took what he found.
23:44:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then it's not very portable.
23:44:29 <ehird> read it on his blahg
23:44:42 <ehird> AnMaster: they make good servers too
23:44:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, portable == C89 for him probably.
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23:44:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then it doesn't work on Windows.
23:44:54 <ehird> very low power consumption, very low noise, very small, etc
23:44:56 <ehird> AnMaster: no, i mean
23:44:58 <AnMaster> ehird, but I remember he said it was second hand
23:44:58 <ehird> mac minis make good servers
23:45:27 <pikhq> C on Windows has somewhat screwy semantics for dynamic libraries. ;)
23:45:50 <ehird> [...]Windows[...]has[...]screwy semantics[...]
23:46:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: So, how *does* he handle declspec?
23:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, he doesn't make libraries iirc
23:47:16 <Deewiant> C[...]has[...]screwy semantics
23:47:18 <ehird> that's a nice way to solve the problem
23:47:26 <ehird> by nice i mean reeeeeeeeetarded
23:47:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: So how does he handle declspec(import)?
23:47:56 <pikhq> Does he not use dynamic libraries, either?
23:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know why linux framebuffer bootup has two logos?
23:48:11 <AnMaster> ehird, as in, he hasn't had any reason to so far iirc... He is about 4 years older than you iirc
23:48:12 <ehird> instead of just one
23:48:24 <AnMaster> ehird, err... I haven't seen logo in fb for ages
23:48:26 <ehird> hm 17, yeah I'd guess
23:48:35 <pikhq> ehird: That means you have two processors.
23:48:37 <ehird> very 17 sort of mode of talking
23:48:39 <ehird> pikhq: oh, does it?
23:48:48 <pikhq> It shows a penguin for each processor.
23:48:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I have 0 processors?
23:49:06 <ehird> pikhq: what if you have 8 processors (= hyperthreading)
23:49:07 <pikhq> Oh, you have that version.
23:49:09 <ehird> does it go off the screen :D
23:49:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, or I just disabled fb logo in kernel maybe...
23:49:15 <ehird> and no, I don't have any version
23:49:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it might cover the entire output? :D
23:49:36 <pikhq> ehird: Tuz is for only one version. ;)
23:49:45 <ehird> tuz is cuter than tux.
23:50:09 <pikhq> ehird: Now that you brought that up, I want to see the bootup process for a 32-core system.
23:50:42 <ais523> yep, one logo per processor
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23:53:39 <ehird> i want to go back to like the 90s
23:53:54 <ehird> and get one of the fledgling distributed OS's— plan9, say
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23:54:08 <ehird> and get like five 386s (one needs to have at least 16MB of ram!)
23:54:12 <ehird> and set it up with ethernet
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23:57:08 * pikhq has discovered the screwiest C-related language.
23:57:31 <ehird> pikhq: It's designed for interfacing C++ code w/ obj-c
23:57:36 <ehird> like using c++ libraries in a mac app
23:57:47 <pikhq> It's still hilariously screwy.
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