00:01:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'll just have a huge pump with a section of tube that goes into space
00:01:14 <ehird> that should cool it adequately.
00:04:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: all the radiators seem to be designed for use w/ fans
00:04:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators
00:04:37 <ehird> as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine
00:05:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no?
00:05:02 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:05:37 -!- nooga has joined.
00:06:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: your silence is agreement
00:07:51 <nooga> ion wind cooling would be cool
00:08:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: passive agreement
00:12:08 <ehird> Koolance Releases Its First LN2 CPU Cooler
00:12:09 <ehird> The CPU-LN2 is for cooling enthusiasts using liquid nitrogen. It supports a wide range of current processors, including: Intel LGA-1366, LGA-775, AMD AM2, AM2+, AM3, and others.
00:12:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: y/n
00:12:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's only $144.99
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00:12:54 <ehird> 00:04 ehird: bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators
00:12:54 <ehird> 00:04 ehird: as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine
00:12:55 <ehird> 00:05 ehird: bsmntbombdood: no?
00:13:57 <ehird> that + take off case fan grill + put a lot of stuff in the loop (but not _everything_, due to a gigantic mass of wires not being appealing - the rest can be handled w/ the minimal natural airflow)
00:19:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: amirite
00:19:45 <ehird> you keep saying it won't work
00:19:47 <ehird> i don't see why not
00:21:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ehh, you wouldn't need too much
00:23:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:31:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:31:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:32:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:39:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:41:09 <AnMaster> ehird, lostkingdom contains an easter egg it seems
00:41:22 <AnMaster> os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg");
00:42:17 <ehird> AnMaster: ask your compiler
00:43:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly
00:43:13 <nooga> AnMaster: you've said something asbout sleeping?
00:43:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the question is, why can't pc radiators?
00:43:34 <ehird> they're basically the same
00:43:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly <-- part of this is due to car moving maybe?
00:43:42 <nooga> that reminds me thah cooling in my mercedes-benz is broken ;C
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00:44:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i guess
00:44:03 <ehird> car radiators aren't huge though
00:44:05 <coppro> Cars also have free power
00:44:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: here's the one that was mentioned: http://www.radiatorworld.com/radiatorworldfinal/displayProducts.aspx?carno=26640
00:44:24 <nooga> coppro: since when?
00:44:41 <coppro> well, for certain definitions of fere
00:44:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ugh, that's alum
00:46:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks
00:46:21 <ehird> + aluminum radiator
00:55:48 <GregorR-L> "<coppro> Cars also have free power" "<coppro> well, for certain definitions of free"
00:56:07 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
00:56:37 <GregorR-L> If it's free, the cost is spitting on the American flag!
00:57:02 * pikhq lights the flag on fire
00:58:18 <ehird> pikhq: is defacing the flag actually illegal in the us of a?
00:58:33 <pikhq> There were attempts to make it illega.
00:58:37 <ehird> i've heard somewhere that it was
00:59:14 <pikhq> No. There was a "suggested code of conduct" passed by Congress regarding the flag, but it's a suggestion, not law.
00:59:26 <pikhq> And that was passed back in the 1800s.
00:59:35 <pikhq> (I think a bit after the Civil War)
01:04:01 <ehird> all i want is a gigantic radiator
01:04:05 <ehird> is that too much to ask for
01:04:49 * pikhq sets the Union Jack on fire for that one
01:06:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: which of these sounds more radiating to you:
01:06:16 <ehird> Feser TFC Xchanger - Monsta Extreme Radiator 420/360
01:06:17 <ehird> Feser X-Changer QUAD 480 Extreme Performance Radiator
01:06:19 <ehird> the former costs more
01:07:08 * pikhq sets the EU and UN flags on fire. Piss off everyone.
01:07:14 <pikhq> Europeans more so.
01:09:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the reserator seems to be the best fanless copper radiator you can get
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01:11:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=InnovaKonvect
01:11:28 <ehird> (hxlxw): 35x23x5cm
01:11:29 <ehird> Weight: 4.76 pounds
01:11:31 <ehird> Dissipates approx. 80 watts
01:11:35 <ehird> (hxlxw): 45x33x5cm !!
01:11:37 <ehird> Weight 10.5 pounds !!
01:11:39 <ehird> Dissipates approx. 125 watts
01:11:41 <ehird> looks like two chained reserators is the way to go...
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01:15:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 'nother one that does 130W
01:15:40 <ehird> nothing >=200W yet
01:15:41 <pikhq> AnMaſter: Þou art known as AnMaſter. How dareſt thee?
01:15:53 <bsmntbombdood> where did you see the reservator dissipating 200w?
01:16:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: user anecdotes
01:16:19 <ehird> 's all you have to go on, really
01:16:39 <ehird> the systems I've seen people use w/ them generally look about 200w too
01:17:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, well, it's consistent
01:18:06 <bsmntbombdood> buy all of them, a well calibrated heating element, and some high quality thermometers
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01:18:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and a new wallet
01:18:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: specs say 1,274m2 dissipation area
01:18:53 <ehird> which I assume means 1.274m2
01:19:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
01:19:39 <ehird> best. radiator. evarr
01:21:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: my ass says that the reserator dissipates 2345872389729384W
01:21:58 <ehird> it is a very accurate ass
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01:22:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: user anecdote says that it can cool a core 2 quad @ 2.66 plus two nvidia 8600GTSes at load below 27C
01:23:07 <ehird> let's look at dem TDPs
01:23:27 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THEY DON'T SAY
01:24:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you find out the heat of a 8600GTS
01:24:46 <ehird> and I'll find out the heat of a core 2 quad @ 2.66ghz
01:25:32 <ehird> Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 22 Amp Amps.)
01:25:32 <ehird> Minimum 450 Watt for SLI mode system. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amp Amps.)
01:25:35 <ehird> An available 6 pin PCI-E power connector (hard drive power dongle to PCI-E 6 pin adapter included with card)
01:25:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how much heat do you think
01:25:43 <ehird> totally unhelpful specs
01:26:23 <ehird> they don't seem like how-powered cards though
01:26:27 <ehird> mainstream 8 generation
01:26:56 <ehird> when they were released
01:28:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ah a low-powered looking system here
01:28:15 <ehird> 8600 GTS XXX, which I guess means overclocked
01:28:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so shall we say 40W for the un-overclocked one?
01:28:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 65W + 40W*2(=145W) = 210W
01:29:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 8600 gts
01:29:09 <ehird> this is mainstream
01:29:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: shall we say 40W?
01:30:02 <ehird> it's probably a low estimate
01:30:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well
01:30:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: if we say 40W, the cpu + 2 graphics cards = 210W
01:30:30 <ehird> so the reserator can dissipate *at least* 210W
01:30:37 <ehird> leaving the components below 27C
01:30:54 <ehird> "Struggles to work with the newer 2 x nVidia 8800 as they just got too hot over 61 degrees celsius out of game reset in game RED HOT no overclock uses as the cards would have gone into meltdown! "
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01:31:12 <ehird> so it dissipates at least 210W, but below 220W
01:31:30 <ehird> if we're conservative and say 210, that's 420W if you chain two together
01:31:38 <ehird> less than the i7+295 = 429W
01:32:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: best route is probably a copper car radiator
01:32:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's w/ thinking i can use 2 reserators
01:32:46 <ehird> i don't really want to buy three
01:33:22 <bsmntbombdood> so grepping all of my irc logs before - 2-3 minutes
01:33:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 'big truck radiators'
01:33:33 <bsmntbombdood> grepping all my irc logs now, on the ssd...12 seconds
01:33:54 <ehird> remember when you thought the ssd wasn't worth the money?
01:34:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: argh car radiator shops suck they all sort by brand
01:34:32 <ehird> I DON'T CARE ABOUT BRAND JUST GIMME A RADIATOR
01:34:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i don't know of a junkyard nearby
01:34:52 <ehird> copper car radiators are rare
01:35:06 <ehird> haha this will be so ghetto
01:35:17 <ehird> mounting a big car radiator on the wall of some unused stairs
01:35:25 <ehird> it may even be ghettotastic
01:36:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how much do you think a car radiator can dissipate fanlessly?
01:36:31 <ehird> so... i'll probably need two
01:36:35 <ehird> if that's accurate.
01:37:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how much do you think?
01:40:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe i should use quantum cooling
01:40:30 <ehird> if (!magically_evaporated(heat)) destroy_universe();
01:41:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i can't find any pure-copper radiators :<<<<<<<<<<<<
01:42:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks
01:42:25 <ehird> spell it with me: g-a-l-v-a-n-i-c c-o-r-r-o-s-i-o-n
01:43:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
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01:44:24 <psygnisfive> a friend just had an interesting idea for an esolang
01:45:54 <psygnisfive> basically, the language would be legalese.
01:47:17 <pikhq> THEY'RE HOLDING HIS HEAD!
01:47:35 <coppro> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/How_many_lawyers_does_it_take_to_change_a_lightbulb%3F
01:47:42 <ehird> johnkeilloh@aol.com
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01:52:09 <coppro> yeah, the original was better
01:52:16 <coppro> that was the one that popped up on google
01:52:19 <psygnisfive> lawyers do not define their terms and then fail to use them uniformly in place of "part of the ..."
01:53:06 <coppro> and actually, when they were paid by the word, they probably would have
01:53:41 <ehird> exchange: you give me a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude
01:55:23 <psygnisfive> its just that were all on the internet, you see
01:55:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: exchange: you help me find a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude
01:56:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: very possible!
01:56:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: cl isn't in my city.
01:57:00 <ehird> because its not a city.
01:57:05 <ehird> its a town. a small abbey town.
01:57:13 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's not helping me to find one :)
01:57:40 <psygnisfive> http://shop.ebay.co.uk/items/?_nkw=copper+radiator&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=copper+car+radiator&_osacat=0
01:57:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: none of those tell me how much heat they dissipate :)
01:58:38 <ehird> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-5-GT-TURBO-FULL-COPPER-RADIATOR-CORE_W0QQitemZ390055782501QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5ad122e865&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1121%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 okay Renault 5 GT Turbo google for that oh just more sellings of the copper core.
02:05:43 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Quinn-Adagio-QS7002CP-Copper-Colour-Designer-Radiator_W0QQitemZ280347991448QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air?hash=item41460add98&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
02:06:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 1239W?
02:06:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: except
02:06:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's 6 feet tall
02:07:01 <ehird> stairs aren't high enough to fit something 6 feet tall on a wall
02:07:36 <ehird> psygnisfive: it's a radiator w/ high wattage, and it's copper
02:07:43 <ehird> psygnisfive: good enough to watercool a computer.
02:07:50 <ehird> because car radiators have high wattage
02:08:07 <psygnisfive> had you TOLD ME you wanted just ANY radiator that wouldnt been different! :|
02:08:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: right then,.
02:09:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how did you search for it?
02:09:35 <ehird> i said bsmntbombdood
02:14:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that radiator doesn't list its water capacity
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02:15:36 <psygnisfive> ehird, why the hell do you need such a large radiator for a computer?
02:15:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: ~429 watts of height, buddy.
02:16:01 <ehird> two zalman reserators only dissipate 420W total
02:16:07 <ehird> so I need to go more heavy-duty
02:16:44 <ehird> psygnisfive: one word
02:16:57 <ehird> If I wanted fans, I'd go for air cooling, not water cooling.
02:17:07 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yes, that's why I'm putting it in the next room
02:17:15 <ehird> Also, good water pumps are inaudible from a very short distance
02:17:18 <ehird> Much more inaudible than fans
02:17:30 <psygnisfive> and more so, your parents are crazy for letting you do this
02:17:38 <psygnisfive> seriously, wtf are you doing that fan noise is an issue? :P
02:17:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: perhaps— but the only moving parts in my system will be one measly pump and a HD for data (os on solid state drive)
02:18:16 <ehird> i have very good hearing
02:18:34 <ehird> i can hear little noises from the living room - separated by an awful lot of space, and a thick wall
02:18:35 <pikhq> After this, he's making an anechoic chamber.
02:18:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: also.
02:19:00 <ehird> a computer with no fans at all? the geek factor is high.
02:19:50 <psygnisfive> pikhq, hes going to be doing thinking, you know.
02:20:06 <ehird> anechoic chambers actually aren't very good for you
02:20:13 <ehird> for being in for a long time
02:20:21 <ehird> your body expects some noise
02:20:25 <psygnisfive> ehird: yeah, you get too much thinking done
02:20:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: fuck off :)
02:20:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: dude, it was a joke
02:20:55 * pikhq gets pissed at his Internet connection. Will be back when it decides to do HTTP faster than 300 baud
02:21:30 <ehird> actually, one more thing psygnisfive
02:22:06 <ehird> you're a mac user right? I'm buying a high-end machine. Did you know that a lot of work that goes into Macs is to silence them? If you think that's what a high-end system sounds like, you really have no idea how loud they can be.
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02:50:53 <pikhq> I would like to present the pinnacle of diactrics technology: ı̥̈̇̉̆̅̄̃̂́̀̐̑̒̊
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02:57:47 <coppro> I think I see a lambda
02:58:01 <pikhq> coppro: No lambda.
02:58:13 <pikhq> Just 15 Unicode combining characters.
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05:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense.
05:15:36 <kerlo> (I wanted to imply that I expect that the action has not stopped and will continue into the future.)
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06:23:09 <psygnisfive> anyone here ever read the whole of the human genome?
06:23:57 <pikhq> Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia.
06:33:35 <kerlo> How big is the human genome?
06:34:21 <kerlo> A few megs? Gosh, that's tiny.
06:34:52 <kerlo> You could read a few megs of text in... not all that long.
06:34:59 <psygnisfive> ofcourse it depends on how you describe it
06:35:09 <kerlo> Two bits per base?
06:35:30 <kerlo> What is "gene form"?
06:35:46 <kerlo> So a list of the names of genes?
06:35:51 <psygnisfive> which is probably hundreds or thousands of base pairs long
06:36:07 <kerlo> I'm guessing that's what the few megs number is.
06:36:17 <kerlo> There's really no point unless you're also reading the genes themselves.
06:37:12 <kerlo> Which is, of course, a completely reasonable thing to do. You look at the GATTACA, translate that into amino acids, and imagine how that would fold.
06:40:34 <pikhq> Sure enough. A freaking MySQL dump is a few megs.
06:42:33 <pikhq> Some site has a searchable index of genomes. They publish MySQL dumps.
06:44:50 <psygnisfive> there used to be a place where you could just download a text file with the whole thing in it
06:48:20 <kerlo> There's apparently a DNA sequence called piggyBac.
06:48:28 <kerlo> It's a transposon.
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08:21:45 <oerjan> 21:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense.
08:21:49 <oerjan> 21:15:32 <Gracenotes> a tense situation
08:22:43 <oerjan> no, kerlo didn't (i am pretty sure that tense has the form "has been -ing", which he did not use). Also, Gracenotes, i must sue you for patent infringement. nothing personal.
08:25:43 <oerjan> 22:23:57 <pikhq> Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia.
08:26:03 * oerjan recalls doing most of the "A" volume when young
08:26:16 <oerjan> alas, interest was too fleeting...
08:27:34 <oerjan> (technically, the A-BEM volume, iirc)
08:28:32 <oerjan> also, a lot of pointer chasing.
08:29:17 * oerjan swats bsmntbombdood -----###
08:31:09 <oerjan> no way is there an entire volume of things starting with AA
08:31:52 <oerjan> especially as your volume doesn't even _get_ to aardvark or aachen
08:32:54 <oerjan> aaa is even more dubious. although i suppose aab could take up more than half of the volume.
08:35:45 <GregorR-L> It's an Aaabaaabaabababian encyclopedia.
08:36:38 <oerjan> so the next volume is BAA-BAB, and there are only two of them.
08:36:56 <GregorR-L> No, there's a short BBA-BBB volume.
08:37:26 <oerjan> although it only has a single obscure band under the latter
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09:19:10 <ais523> wow, wtf is up with the BF Joust scoreboard?
09:19:26 <ais523> I don't get how defend6 and 7 can be so high up, with defend9 low down
09:19:54 <ais523> and nothing scoring above 60, which is also rather suspicious
09:22:02 <oerjan> clearly someone reversed the polarity. and then took the average.
09:22:11 * oerjan crawls back under his rock.
09:22:26 <ais523> well, that would explain why the points are no longer integers
09:22:42 <ais523> defend9 is meant to be pretty polarity-independent, though
09:22:53 <ais523> the only bit that really cares about polarity is the decoys
09:22:56 <oerjan> also, average over tape length
09:23:34 <ais523> but that should help defend9 even more, it doesn't like excessively short tapes
09:23:39 <ais523> so I'm a bit surprised at the results
09:23:49 <oerjan> so there may still be a bug somewhere...
09:27:34 <ais523> is it still using egojoust as the interp?
09:28:08 <oerjan> i think so, i saw a mention by GregorR-L about wanting to keep the interp part standalone
09:28:11 <ais523> although, most of defend9's losses are to programs I don't recognise
09:28:25 <ais523> so I suspect people have just been attacking it
09:34:52 <GregorR-L> I'm fairly certain there are no bugs.
09:35:01 <GregorR-L> The interp is still separate, it just returns a more strange integer now :P
09:35:06 <ais523> yep, the results don't seem to indicate a bug to me
09:35:12 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES for the new system
09:35:16 <ais523> although they are rather interesting
09:35:41 <ais523> and it's rather strange to see two od myprograms that must be almost a week old by now up the top of the leaderboard
09:35:52 <ais523> obviously [-] loops have made a comeback
09:47:17 * GregorR-L wurves that people complain regardless of the changes he makes 8-D
09:47:56 <ais523> I'm not complaining, just surprised
09:48:15 <ais523> but am surprised at how they changed the leaderboard
09:48:40 <GregorR-L> I'll bet there's a bigger potential audience for BF Joust out there.
09:49:03 <ais523> people who never really got into corewar, for instance
09:52:31 <ais523> GregorR-L: have you sped up egojoust? or will I get shot if I make another version of defend9?
09:52:51 <GregorR-L> I sped it up since it really killed it. It's not megafast, but it's fine.
09:53:20 <GregorR-L> The main problem isn't the base speed, but the sheer number of runs for every configuration, at this point :P
09:59:50 <GregorR-L> (Oh, and it does expand ({})%, though it doesn't expand ()*, so ({})%10000000 is to be avoided :P )
10:00:10 <ais523> egojoust seems buggy on nested ({})%
10:00:19 <ais523> I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9
10:00:34 <ais523> admittedly, there are some negative RLEs due to a bug in my generation script, but I don't think that code often gets run
10:09:31 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*20
10:09:38 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.1
10:09:42 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*21
10:09:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.5
10:10:16 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+]]>)*21
10:10:24 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy0: 17.3
10:10:58 * ais523 wonders why defend9 loses to that
10:15:07 <GregorR-L> ais523: I fixed that bug a while ago.
10:15:15 <GregorR-L> ais523: Or at least I think I did ... the nested ({}) bug that is.
10:18:21 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
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10:26:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
10:26:51 <dbc> I haven't seen BFJoust before. Where are the rules?
10:28:54 <GregorR-L> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF%20Joust
10:29:33 <GregorR-L> Unsurprisingly, we're using the version ais made.
10:31:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
10:31:20 <oerjan> technically doing all forms of
10:31:21 <oerjan> inversion should be unnecessary, but they're done for ... "completeness"
10:31:37 <oerjan> GregorR-L: ^ um, you mean "stupidity"?
10:31:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:31:54 <GregorR-L> Hence the ellipses and question mark :P
10:31:54 <oerjan> reverting one of them is enough...
10:32:17 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I didn't think about it when I first wrote it, then I went "oh yeah, 128 is 128 away from 0 in either direction"
10:32:30 <GregorR-L> But I'm too lazy to change it right now, and it makes no actual difference except time, so *eh*
10:34:56 <oerjan> <ais523> I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9 <-- i thought ([)* was illegal
10:35:21 <oerjan> GregorR-L: do you support ([)* ?
10:35:47 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Yes, although it oughtn't.
10:36:34 <oerjan> because if so you could just turn (a{b}c)%n -> (a)*n b (c)*n
10:36:57 <GregorR-L> ()* is expanded if it includes [ or ], ATM.
10:37:31 <oerjan> because the only reason to have ({})% is because ()* requires balanced []'s
10:38:10 <oerjan> GregorR-L: it wouldn't be bad to allow ([)* if you could do it efficiently
10:38:35 <GregorR-L> oerjan: I'm only allowing ([) because I'm not handling the situation efficiently in general :P
10:40:26 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
10:43:57 <oerjan> argh! the horizontal scrollbar of hg's file browser is stupid!
10:44:50 <oerjan> it's _not_ in the visible part of the _window_, i have to scroll the main window to _see_ the inner scrollbar!
10:45:09 <GregorR-L> Are you using some wacko browser? Super-low resolution?
10:45:50 <oerjan> the problem is not the browser
10:45:59 <oerjan> the problem is my 1280x800 laptop screen
10:46:14 <GregorR-L> My laptop screen is 1280x800, and I have no issues :P
10:46:44 <oerjan> well it's only an issue for that one long line in egojoust.c
10:48:01 <GregorR-L> When I adjusted my font, I managed to produce stupiditude.
10:48:19 <oerjan> also i like a fairly large font
10:50:02 <GregorR-L> I ate a probably-not-insubstantial part of a mosquito today.
10:50:07 <oerjan> ok maximizing the window helps too
10:50:29 <GregorR-L> My arm itched but my hands were full, so I instinctively bit to scratch.
10:50:48 <GregorR-L> Suffice to say that when your arm itches because the mosquito is still there, that's not a good idea.
10:51:05 <oerjan> GregorR-L: i like to keep a small part of the irc window visible under my browser, so i can see if there is activity
10:52:18 <oerjan> GregorR-L: well it's protein!
10:52:40 <GregorR-L> It tasted mostly like (presumably my own) blood, surprisingly sweet, with a little bit of bitterness.
10:58:27 <oerjan> GregorR-L: huh, it looks to me like you have most of the ingredients for doing (balanced) ({})% and ()* without expansion already - you keep a stack of counters
11:02:19 <AnMaster> it is irritating when you find totally messed up logic in programs you wrote yourself...
11:02:39 <AnMaster> it is even more irritating when the incorrect logic actually works too.
11:06:10 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yod
11:06:33 <oerjan> GregorR-L: hey, yodawg got cut off!
11:08:21 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google gregor hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg
11:09:09 <AnMaster> in what language is it written
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; Keymaker's brainfuck interpreter
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; a brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; the memory cells can hold any value from zero to infinity
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; written by Keymaker
11:10:52 <AnMaster> can they hold actual infinity? ;P
11:12:58 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for asm!
11:14:14 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£€¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
11:14:22 <GregorR-L> Slereah_: You can do inline ASM in C.
11:14:40 <AnMaster> I closed the chat after a while
11:14:47 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It's limited to 128K anyway :P
11:15:20 <AnMaster> is that kibibyte or kilobyte? ;P
11:15:52 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, how many kilonibbles!
11:16:35 <GregorR-L> oerjan: You can do inline ASM in C.
11:17:57 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
11:18:22 <oerjan> GregorR-L: it was not being a user interpreter that made me wonder...
11:19:01 <GregorR-L> I put that there while I was testing something.
11:19:14 <oerjan> test as well, i assume
11:20:15 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
11:20:40 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
11:20:51 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
11:20:58 <oerjan> why is show listed there
11:21:05 <oerjan> rather than at the beginning
11:21:43 <GregorR-L> Because it's in the hcmds directory *shrugs*
11:21:49 -!- nooga has joined.
11:25:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc
11:25:47 <dbc> Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array?
11:26:23 <GregorR-L> dbc: IMHO any program that took long enough to detect such things would lose while taking that time.
11:26:39 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: ... you're not Polish, you're Swedish, you're not supposed to like Reverse Polish Notation :P
11:26:55 <AnMaster> almost as much as prefix notation
11:28:06 <EgoBot> .238095238095238095238095238095
11:28:35 <EgoBot> Runtime error (func=(main), adr=18): Function s not defined.
11:28:43 <EgoBot> (standard_in) 1: syntax error
11:28:50 <dbc> Well, I was thinking it would start something like >+++[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
11:28:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, you should load the math library with -l
11:29:20 <EgoBot> Interpreter bc deleted.
11:29:24 <EgoBot> Interpreter bc installed.
11:29:29 <EgoBot> .235852028768310500148768462188
11:29:36 <dbc> As soon as the decoy gets cleared, it jumps immediately to the proper response after the matching ].
11:29:45 <EgoBot> .2358520287683105001487684621888690261219855174394651629650889653465\
11:30:16 <AnMaster> and I guess the 3000 decimals one isn't ready yet
11:30:40 <AnMaster> 10 2 / p is so much easier to read than 10/2
11:30:58 <dbc> Of course this assumes you can set up a decoy such that each combination of program, array length, and inversion zeroes it at a slightly different time. Which may not be possible. And of course after a while you suspect that you're dealing with a purely defensive program and then other steps would be required.
11:30:59 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, you said it wasn't installed?
11:31:21 <GregorR-L> It wasn't, then I installed it and bc :P
11:32:13 <AnMaster> GregorR, how do the interpreter see end of input
11:32:34 <EgoBot> Interpreter dc installed.
11:33:19 <EgoBot> .23809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523\
11:33:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus?").
11:34:38 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, can you do that with bc at all?
11:35:03 <AnMaster> (set output radix to 16, thus printing in hexdecimal)
11:35:58 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dc dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodaw
11:36:28 <AnMaster> when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again?
11:36:46 <AnMaster> !yoda May the force be with you
11:36:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:36:57 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, pretty sure it exists
11:37:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway you need to handle this truncation issue
11:37:48 <GregorR-L> Yeah, !help is too long and I'm not sure what I want to do about it >_>
11:38:09 <ais523> GregorR-L: output more than one line, maybe?
11:38:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, display something like "for listing userinterpreters use !whatever", for listing special commands use !whatever
11:38:31 <AnMaster> use a different whatever of course
11:38:41 <AnMaster> splitting it in logical sections
11:39:04 <AnMaster> like addinterp daemon daemons delinterp help info kill show in one group
11:39:25 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for adjust!
11:39:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway what do you think about the split group thingy?
11:40:30 <GregorR-L> With its current form that would be a GIANT pita.
11:40:36 <ais523> ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss
11:40:39 <GregorR-L> However, it's probably the best idea :(
11:40:44 <dbc> Since a lot of these programs have deletion loops ending in ]], there isn't a way to break out of them by setting one's flag to 0 for only one turn, after the loop has been entered. So instead the solution is presumably to keep it in the deletion loop longer by pushing the thing past 0 every time it zeroes it, and in between, going on and working on reducing the enemy flag.
11:40:56 <ais523> adjust is an esolang, I think
11:41:06 <ais523> either that, or turning the flag the other way faster
11:41:11 <ais523> that's how all my defend-number programs work
11:41:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, !bfjoust should clearly not be in same group as for example !daemon. Since !daemon is one of those "meta" commands
11:41:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, from a user viewpoint they are rather different
11:41:46 <ais523> also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel
11:42:32 <ais523> AnMaster: Daniel B Cristofani, one of the world's best Brainfuck programmers
11:42:40 <dbc> Wouldn't that be less efficient? I'm thinking IF you actually have the other program identified, then you only need to spend one or two cycles of 256 foiling attempts to zero your flag, and the rest can be used to clear out the other flag?
11:42:44 <AnMaster> where did I see that name recently...
11:42:44 <dbc> Yeah, that's me. Thank you.
11:42:58 <AnMaster> oh yes. in the semi-optimised output of LostKing...
11:43:02 <ais523> dbc: if you have the opponent identified, efficiency doesn't matter any more
11:43:05 <AnMaster> (in the compiler I'm working on)
11:43:18 <ais523> and if you don't, reversing the direction sometimes works even if you're approximately right
11:43:36 <ais523> also, it's very hard to tell loops that work like [---++] from loops that work like [....+] with BF-style observations
11:43:42 <dbc> Yeah, you're right. Premature optimization etc.
11:43:45 <ais523> the first probably needs several cycles foiling attempts to zero
11:43:50 <GregorR-L> [If you want to identify opponents, you should be playing FYB instead of BF Joust :P ]
11:44:33 <AnMaster> os("\n Daniel B Cristofani (http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/)\n Jeffry Johnston (http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/)\n Ian Haberkorn (No web site)\n Javri aka Katzy (http://www.nostalgia8.org)\n\nExtra credit goes to:\n Daniel without whom this project would have been so much poorer\n Jeffry without whom this project would not have been possible\n");
11:45:13 <AnMaster> ais523, also I know that lostkingdom contains an easter egg, I don't know what it is though...:
11:45:15 <AnMaster> os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg");
11:45:37 <ais523> AnMaster: you have LostKng's original source?
11:45:52 <AnMaster> ais523, ... no that is from my optimised compiled C program of lostking
11:46:02 <dbc> The approach I was thinking of, which is of course useless against any new program, is to identify the program and length solely by the exact number of cycles before it zeroes your decoy.
11:46:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I constant fold output as you know
11:46:21 <ais523> dbc: with random tape length, you'd need to be a bit more clever than that
11:46:29 <ais523> (or with check-all-tape-lengrhs)
11:46:37 <dbc> I was thinking check-all.
11:46:51 <ais523> some programs look identical to such analyses, though
11:47:05 <ais523> e.g. defend6/7/9 will never zero your decoy at all
11:47:21 <ais523> nor would vibration_fool_faster or jump2, although they've fallen off the hill
11:47:35 <ais523> and many attack programs will start much the same way, so they'd be hard to tell apart
11:47:47 <dbc> Yeah...after a certain time you know it's a defensive one and then you do have to do some other check. But then you have time to do so.
11:47:49 <ais523> (actually, vibration_fool_faster did zero eventually, but after about 10000 cycles)
11:48:43 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[---]+]+]+]
11:48:49 * ais523 wonders how it would do on the present hill
11:48:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 12.2
11:48:59 <ais523> and the answer is "not very well"
11:49:45 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*50000
11:50:02 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 10.6
11:50:25 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127.(-+)*50000
11:50:35 <ais523> if that's different, I think I hit a bug in egojoust
11:50:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 11.3
11:50:54 <ais523> heh, loads of draws now
11:51:06 <ais523> egojoust must count a program as losing if it times out with its flag on 0
11:51:34 <ais523> !bfjoust fool_faster >>>>>>>>>+[[[>[---]+]+]+]+[[[>[---]+]+]+]
11:51:41 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fool_faster: 4.2
11:52:57 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*15([(+)*19[-]]>)*14[[-]][[-]]
11:53:05 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy19: 11.7
11:53:30 <ais523> still last, and it loses to the programs it's meant to beat...
11:53:51 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*10([(+)*19[-]]>)*19[[-]][[-]]
11:53:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy19: 20.8
11:58:59 <ais523> still not /good/, but I like to have a few speedies up there to get rid of the really slow programs
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12:22:25 <ais523> AnMaster: a bug in in-between?
12:22:32 <ais523> does p change in between?
12:22:45 <AnMaster> possibly the use of p[-1] has been optimised out there
12:22:58 <ais523> do you keep rerunning your optimisation templates until none of them match/
12:23:02 <ais523> that's what I do in OIL
12:23:02 <AnMaster> since there were some loops -> polynomial conversion
12:23:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I keep rerunning all the passes until the tree doesn't change any more
12:23:19 <AnMaster> ais523, since not all passes are simple matches
12:23:25 <AnMaster> like for example the constant propagator
12:23:39 <ais523> well, in C-INTERCAL I do constant propagation by pattern matching
12:23:46 <AnMaster> anyway I optimise away those two p[-1] accesses now
12:23:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well constant/copy propagation
12:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it is done by building a dict with offset as key as I go along. I plan a pass that converts things to dependency graphs and then re-serialises stuff back to the parse tree at the end.
12:25:48 <AnMaster> this would allow me to do some stuff that is infeasible currently
12:26:29 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway currently I'm working on making the shifter handle polynomials fully. So it can sort other instructions relative them.
12:26:44 <ais523> well, I'd better go off to an exam
12:26:52 <ais523> so bye for now, I'll be back later
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12:27:10 <AnMaster> btw, that p[-1] pattern happens quite a few times in lostking
12:27:31 <AnMaster> always in code related to output long descriptions it seems
12:45:46 <dbc> Rewriting a compiler for a BFBasic subset that will cut lostkingdom's length dramatically has been on my to-do list for years. I'm a big procrastinator.
12:46:14 <AnMaster> dbc, you have the original source?
12:47:42 <dbc> Probably somewhere.
12:47:58 <AnMaster> The current lostkingdom in bf contains some dead loops btw.
12:48:06 <dbc> Not surprised.
12:48:52 <dbc> I was guessing I could cut the length in half, at least.
12:49:06 <AnMaster> it is however rather easy to optimise it, while something like that mandelbrot.b program (hand written iirc) is a lot harder to optimise.
12:49:32 <AnMaster> every [-] is gold worth for an optimising BF->anything compiler ;P
12:51:19 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: what target are you considering for "anything"? ;)
12:51:36 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, anything but outputting again to bf? ;P
12:51:56 <AnMaster> bf-to-bf optimiser could do a lot of stuff on lostkingdom though...
12:52:37 <AnMaster> dbc, any idea why LostKng.b starts with this rather silly BF code: [-][.]
12:53:01 <AnMaster> it it some sort of sanity test for the compiler/interpreter?
12:53:43 <dbc> Maybe it's meant to say "This code produced with BFBASIC" :)
12:55:00 <AnMaster> it would be interesting to get character frequency for lostking. I suspect that < and > would be the most common ones...
12:56:27 <AnMaster> (while read -r -n 1 ch; do echo $ch; done < examples/LostKng.b) | sort -n | uniq -c
12:56:42 <AnMaster> far from the fastest way to do it...
12:58:01 <AnMaster> not sure why there is a @ there...
12:58:11 <AnMaster> and those blanks are probably newlines
12:58:56 <AnMaster> oh and interesting. Overall the program is balanced it seemd
12:59:30 <AnMaster> (not in any useful for optimising sense)
12:59:48 <dbc> In what sense then?
13:00:01 <AnMaster> same number of > and < in the program
13:00:18 <dbc> Okay. Are there the same number of > and < within matched [] also?
13:00:28 <dbc> Didn't think so.
13:00:31 <AnMaster> which is why it isn't useful to optimising :P
13:00:32 <dbc> That'd be odd.
13:00:50 <AnMaster> dbc, a bit odd that the total count match up still...
13:02:10 <dbc> Not that odd. The more straightforward things to navigate variable-sized data structures tend to balance, and then if BFBASIC decided to leave the pointer back at point 0 for some reason...which wouldn't be that surprising, though useless...
13:02:39 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell there are no dead <<<<< at the end of the program
13:02:58 <AnMaster> well, maybe there is, but not easily detectable from a quick glance
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13:04:22 <dbc> Maybe they're not totally dead. I don't remember how the whole goto thing was implemented but maybe it actually looks at cell 0.
13:06:11 <AnMaster> dbc, have you seen that gcc-bf thing ais523 is working on? BF backend for GCC.
13:06:23 <dbc> I haven't.
13:06:24 <AnMaster> don't think it is uploaded anywhere atm (due to hosting issues)
13:06:33 <AnMaster> but it produces even more verbose code.
13:07:16 <AnMaster> (due to stdio brining in atexit, which used malloc iirc)
13:08:07 <AnMaster> in a special run length encoding of bf, it is 434K. I haven't seen it fully expanded... Don't think it would be a good idea to try to fully expand it :D
13:09:36 <AnMaster> dbc, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/hworld1.bfrle
13:09:44 <dbc> Like Von Neumann's self-reproducing automaton, or the number that's the subject of Gödel's theorem, or... :)
13:09:48 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that's not a good idea, look at this:
13:09:52 <AnMaster> *44 means "the previous instruction 44 times
13:10:11 <AnMaster> the code before that is just setup of tape
13:12:02 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I wonder what "(%999999999 Assertion error)" is there for
13:13:03 <lifthrasiir> so it contains the whole C standard library?
13:14:21 <AnMaster> >*12883[-<*12889+>*6+>*12883] <*12883[->*12883+<*12883] >*12889
13:14:54 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it isn't hot on locality of reference I guess ;P
13:15:31 <lifthrasiir> i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws
13:16:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and why in that shape?
13:16:21 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, those are some HUGE eyebrows?
13:16:49 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that's Tsukamoto Tenma, some random female anime character.
13:17:08 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, is that really valid python?
13:17:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about indention...
13:17:27 <lifthrasiir> the whole source code is in the single, concatenated line.
13:18:01 <lifthrasiir> anyway i cannot understand me 5 years ago still... maybe i had too much spare time.
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14:09:34 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, do you think it is a good idea to unroll ALL repeat loops?
14:09:52 <AnMaster> currently I only do it for ones containing only set, add and such
14:10:15 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, repeat loops in mode code are loops with known iteration count, and known balanced.
14:10:22 <lifthrasiir> i think it should unroll MORE loops than now, but not ALL.
14:10:41 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, which ones shouldn't be unrolled then?
14:11:32 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i'm not sure; but if the unrolling requires a solution of linear recurrence equation, it would go certainly wrong.
14:12:09 <lifthrasiir> (for example, some loop can try to generate 1000th fibonacci number.)
14:12:43 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few.
14:12:50 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, Since iteration count is constant, repeat loop is balanced, and unrolling means "duplicate body of loop iteration count times, then insert" it wouldn't generate broken code.
14:13:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so an upper limit on iteration count rather?
14:14:31 <lifthrasiir> i think that if there is no code optimized via unrolling, do not unroll.
14:14:33 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, also, if it only contains sets and adds (but no copies or set_from), unrolling it always will be a gain. Since those will constant fold to pretty much the length of the loop body soon after.
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14:15:03 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I wouldn't know that until much later
14:15:11 <AnMaster> I mean, for comparing "did I gain something"
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14:34:29 <Corun> If the loop end condition is trivial enough then you can always gain because you can get rid of the branch instruction in between each run of the loop
14:38:01 <oerjan> <AnMaster> when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again?
14:38:16 <oerjan> so mercifully avoid it, you did
14:38:45 <oerjan> http://www.talklikeyoda.com/
14:39:18 * oerjan is surprised it is not Like Yoda Talk Day. or something.
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14:41:12 <oerjan> although i recall reading somewhere that yoda actually only mangled a small fraction of his sentences.
14:45:03 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
14:45:56 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, btw I solved that "back end independent output while retaining abstraction bit" for polynomials by a fold-like function
14:46:22 <AnMaster> that takes a fun and gives it a stream of tokens.
14:46:39 <AnMaster> it is "not really fold, but I can't find a good name for it"
14:46:59 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how did you solve it for your expressions?
14:47:26 <AnMaster> (full expressions are a lot messier to work with than simple polynomials..)
15:04:33 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: not yet. maybe i'll add some visitor later.
15:04:43 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hm I called mine "walker"
15:04:59 <AnMaster> can't see the logic behind the name visitor
15:07:44 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: essentially same, but not implemented yet
15:08:07 <lifthrasiir> and i think the name visitor is more popular in java, due to its use in visitor pattern
15:08:31 <lifthrasiir> (disclaimer: i don't like patterns in java, and don't like java mostly
15:09:10 * AnMaster tries to work out why this didn't swap: p[1]+=255; o(-42);
15:09:29 <AnMaster> there is no dependency between changing offset 1 and outputting offset -42...
15:12:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and I'm not sure what I'm doing is a "design pattern"...
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15:12:25 <AnMaster> just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar...
15:13:12 <impomatic> I've been camping for three days. Any new techniques for BF Joust while I've been gone? Or more of the same?
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15:15:14 <oerjan> <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few.
15:15:33 <oerjan> that would be nicely optimizable with some matrix multiplication, i think :D
15:16:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, what would the output code be
15:16:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: each iteration is essentially multiplying the vector (p[3], p[4], p[5]) by a matrix
15:16:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, tell me what the generated C code would be
15:17:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: the matrix power could be constant folded
15:17:53 <oerjan> so something of the form
15:18:49 <oerjan> p3 = M33*p[3]+M34*p[4]+M35*p[5]; p4 = ...; p5 = ...; p[3] = p3; p[4] = p4; p[5] = p5
15:19:04 <AnMaster> anyway I would constant fold that if I unrolled it anyway.
15:19:10 <oerjan> where the M33 - M55 constants all are 0..255, in modulo arithmetic
15:19:24 <AnMaster> for two iterations: p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; would turn into...
15:19:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: indeed, but exponentiation can be done faster than iterated multiplication
15:19:50 <oerjan> so you would get the same result but faster
15:20:33 <oerjan> because you can calculate M^2, M^4, ..., M^512 matrices and then multiply those
15:20:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, my compiler is slow enough anyway ;P
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15:25:28 <oerjan> today's IWC seems fine...
15:26:58 <oerjan> also, it seems like the universe might be settling down again after the recreation...
15:28:05 <oerjan> to the degree that having balrogs running around can be considered "settling down"
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15:30:45 <oerjan> hm, Lightning Made of Owls has _not_ updated...
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15:31:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: all just couldn't be right, could it
15:33:44 <oerjan> square root of minus garfield contains a math error today...
15:34:00 <oerjan> the title doesn't match the description, because of misplaced parenthesis.
15:34:43 <AnMaster> should be (Minus (Garfield Squared))
15:36:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, odd no one has done anything based on that NESfield thingy
15:36:11 <AnMaster> I would like to see some more of that
15:36:21 <oerjan> now what was that again
15:36:30 <AnMaster> see the archive and look for NESfield
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15:37:54 <oerjan> the license on that one is rather dubious...
15:38:53 <oerjan> it's not an actual parody, just sprites presented for later parody, and they are presumably all copyrighted
15:39:42 <oerjan> although an _actual_ parody based on those might be fine
15:40:44 <oerjan> hm i guess the license doesn't apply anyway since it says "original aspects"
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16:26:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm reworking option handling. Now it shouldn't be as hard to run in_between on gccbfrle
16:26:36 <AnMaster> still not easy but working on that
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16:39:32 <ehird> is the genome just a bad, ad-hoc, genetically evolved programming language? :)
16:39:40 <ehird> 01:27 psygnisfive: man. ehird needs to get fucked ← legal issues there
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16:49:15 <ehird> 10:25 AnMaster: GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc ← you're joking
16:49:25 <ehird> 10:25 dbc: Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array? ←yes
16:50:00 <EgoBot> .33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333\
16:50:03 <pikhq> ehird: You just need to use an HP calculator.
16:50:55 <pikhq> P doesn't print a newline.
16:50:57 <ehird> 10:41 ais523: also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel ← he's been in here for years constantly
16:51:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, also doesn't it print as ascii?
16:53:39 <ehird> 12:15 lifthrasiir: i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws ← i am sure I have seen this before
16:53:46 <ehird> or maybe just something similar
16:54:44 <ehird> 14:12 AnMaster: just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar...
16:54:47 <ehird> idiom=design pattern
16:55:17 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But "design pattern" sounds like some enterprisy OOP thing... :P
16:55:55 <ehird> that's because it is
16:56:18 <ehird> AnMaster: although it's more like design pattern subset-of idioms
16:56:30 <dbc> My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :)
16:56:37 <ehird> it didn't become as ridiculous until recently btw. ward cunningham and martin fowler have done non-crackhead design patterns stuff
16:56:51 <ehird> AnMaster: In software engineering, a design pattern is a general reusable solution to a commonly occurring problem in software design. A design pattern is not a finished design that can be transformed directly into code. It is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. Object-oriented design patterns typically show relationships and interactions between classes or objects, without specifying the fi
16:56:54 <ehird> nal application classes or objects that are involved.
16:56:58 <ehird> idioms are patterns in the language code itself
16:57:04 <ehird> design patterns are patterns in how the code operates
16:58:25 <ehird> 16:56 dbc: My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :) ← computer, you, what's the difference
16:58:36 <ehird> s/ / / god I'm paranoid about whitespace
16:58:59 <AnMaster> ehird, where was that extra whitespace?
16:58:59 <ehird> ais523: that slashdot story has emacs as a tag
16:59:03 <ehird> AnMaster: before ←
16:59:25 * ais523 wonders whether to remove defend6 from the rankings
16:59:25 <ais523> (because it's almost the same as defend7)
16:59:28 <ehird> "Or is this an eternal, undecidable holy-war question along the lines of ATI/nVidia, AMD/Intel, Coke/Pepsi"
16:59:34 <ehird> he managed to put all the correct ones second
16:59:45 <ais523> ehird: well, Emacs is one of the only sane ways to edit VHDL
16:59:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss
16:59:50 <ais523> because VHDL has so much boilerplate
16:59:59 <ais523> Emacs' VHDL-mode fills the boilerplate in for you
17:00:02 <ehird> ais523: i think i prefer verilog
17:00:04 <AnMaster> for some reason that link says "connection reset by server" when I try it
17:00:08 <ehird> that's a language you hack on in vi
17:00:12 <pikhq> Kinda like its RPM-mode?
17:00:28 <AnMaster> $ curl 'http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss'
17:00:28 <AnMaster> curl: (56) Failure when receiving data from the peer
17:00:30 <ais523> ehird: the difference to me seems to be that VHDL is very strict and quadruple-checky, Verilog hand-waves if you write something nonsensical
17:00:31 <pikhq> ehird: Real men use ed.
17:00:40 <pikhq> And implement Vi in it.
17:01:05 <AnMaster> so does http://ask.slashdot.org/
17:01:15 <AnMaster> just not that full link, or clicking on the article
17:01:16 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:01:20 <ehird> ais523: /me mumbles something about real men
17:01:26 <ais523> AnMaster: Slashdot has gone all Web 2.0 Javascript
17:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: your internet sux
17:01:32 <ais523> although the fallback to pure HTML mostly works
17:01:35 <ehird> ais523: ridiculous excuse
17:01:37 <ehird> his internet always breaks
17:01:44 <ehird> pikhq: http://imgur.com/zhnig.png
17:01:55 <ehird> the pinnacle of rendering of the pinnacle of diacritics technology
17:01:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I know that
17:02:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm saying that your DNS breaks often
17:02:07 <AnMaster> ehird, dns only broke twice or so the last year
17:02:17 <ehird> Well, whatever; you often say links don't work for you.
17:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, for lycos.fr in both cases
17:02:29 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But mostly not due to dns
17:03:23 <pikhq> ehird: Minor failure.
17:03:25 <AnMaster> http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/31/187208 <-- that link works for the same thing
17:03:34 <AnMaster> so I guess what ais523 said was the issue
17:03:36 <pikhq> ehird: ı should be centered. :p
17:03:49 <ehird> pikhq: That's a font issue
17:03:54 <ehird> I can render it in Helvetica if you want
17:05:00 <ehird> pikhq: if I do it on one line, it's three dots, bar, circle. If I had more newlines before, more stuff appears
17:05:34 <ehird> pikhq: http://imgur.com/iMicG.png
17:05:39 <ehird> Enjoy with a 100dpi LCD display.
17:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so which is best, verilog or vhdl?
17:05:52 <ehird> AnMaster: which is best, C or Erlang?
17:05:56 <pikhq> Looks about right.
17:06:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, is it that type of question
17:06:21 <AnMaster> rather than "which is best, C or C++"
17:06:21 <ehird> VHDL if you want to be damn sure nothing went wrong at all
17:06:25 <ehird> verilog if you actually want to get shit done
17:06:31 <ehird> AnMaster: but most likely?
17:06:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Whatever your institute has an okay compiler for.
17:06:49 <ehird> Unless you're rich and can afford one yourself.
17:08:33 <ehird> A resolution with exactly 120 dpi at 12".
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17:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, 12" makes me think more in the terms of "800x600"
17:09:38 <AnMaster> (which my old first model ibook was)
17:09:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, 800x600 is kind of unusable.
17:10:04 <AnMaster> ehird, my ibook was iirc 12" (or 12.5"?) and resolution was 800x600
17:10:13 <ehird> that's a bit small for 2001.
17:10:18 <ehird> AnMaster: so, OS X then?
17:10:23 <ehird> OS X isn't happy with 800x600, really
17:10:35 <AnMaster> ehird, OS X didn't exist back then
17:10:40 <ehird> os x came out in 2001.
17:10:44 <ehird> public beta in 2000
17:10:49 <ehird> if you bought an ibook in 2000, it was os 9.
17:10:57 <ehird> i'll look it up on infallopedia, anyway
17:11:19 <AnMaster> ehird, it might have been late 1999 even. Depends on when the first ibook was released.
17:11:29 <AnMaster> since it was pretty soon after the first one was released
17:11:32 <ehird> discontinued may 1 01
17:11:44 <AnMaster> ehird, then probably late 1999 or early 2000
17:11:48 <ehird> AnMaster: mac os 9 = oct 23 99
17:11:53 <ehird> so you almost certainly had os 9...
17:12:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I have the CD here... says 8.5 on it
17:12:13 <ehird> Must be an old one that wasn't sold
17:12:46 <AnMaster> wait, that is the wrong computer. The ibook one is 8.6 in fact. the 8.5 cd is from another old mac
17:12:53 <ehird> oh, 1152x864 is a great resolution
17:16:18 <ehird> Guys. Scientific facts.
17:17:35 * AnMaster gets nostalgic and boots the old ibook
17:17:48 <ehird> AnMaster? Liking some sort of mac?
17:18:15 <ehird> I believe I went something → 10GB → 80GB
17:18:21 <AnMaster> and glitches in power connector, dead battery
17:18:27 <ehird> (→ 500GB although that was just for media, w/ 80GB for OS)
17:18:38 <AnMaster> so "very still tabletop" nowdays
17:18:40 <ehird> (TIME MACHINE WHOOSH → 160GB/1TB)
17:18:45 <ehird> wait, no, this HD is 230GB
17:19:05 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd like to see that try and boot os x
17:19:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have any OS X CD
17:19:31 <AnMaster> ehird, and it could probably boot OS X 10.0 or so
17:19:55 <ehird> AnMaster: what processor is it?
17:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, G3... let me wait for it to boot so I can check details
17:20:26 <ehird> i had a g3 imac for a few days (i broke the optical drive so it won't boot an install cd and had previously fucked up the OS on it, kekekeke)
17:20:32 <ehird> 233mhz proc or something
17:20:37 <ehird> 16MB of ram or something?
17:20:46 <ehird> the hd was upgraded to 4gb i think
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17:21:25 <AnMaster> sounds like the harddrive is half dead
17:21:29 <ehird> i can't think of laptops as loud they're so small :D
17:21:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I have an old beige powermac running os 8 or 9 in the corner collecting dust
17:21:42 <ehird> god that thing's loud
17:21:44 <ehird> you can't hear yourself think
17:21:46 <AnMaster> ehird, very loud and high pitched
17:22:12 <AnMaster> so probably something half-broken
17:22:33 <AnMaster> just checked in "Apple Systeminformation"
17:23:10 <ehird> i should wire up my power mac and g3
17:23:18 <ehird> and get back that really old ~486 i had
17:23:23 <ehird> and put plan9 on them
17:23:26 <ehird> DISTRIBUTED COMPUTATION NETWORK
17:23:40 <ehird> that's how you do a plan 9 cpu server
17:24:14 <ehird> I thougth you meant
17:24:20 <ehird> connect my machines with ethernet
17:24:28 <AnMaster> ehird, this won't work when everything goes IPv6 in 2050 or so :P
17:24:28 <ehird> AnMaster: does it have IE or netscape?
17:24:43 <ehird> IE 5 for the mac was sort of okay
17:24:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I upgraded it to OS 9 later.
17:24:49 <ehird> separate codebase from windows ie
17:25:50 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah. It actually had rendering vaguely close to that specified by the standard.
17:26:03 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMac_G3_flavors.jpg ← Flower Power is totally trippy.
17:26:21 <ehird> If I was gonna buy an old imac way back then I'd have got a graphite or snow one since I'm soooooooo boring
17:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I think this *ibook* is "bondi blue"
17:29:15 <AnMaster> ehird, this colouring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBook_redjar.jpg
17:30:29 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes it is the harddrive that is making the sound
17:30:38 <ehird> KRRRRRRRR KRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
17:30:39 <AnMaster> since it just put the harddrive into sleep it stopped the sound
17:30:51 <ehird> I AM AN UNRELIABLE, SLOW DISK HERE ME ROAR
17:30:52 <AnMaster> WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME
17:31:38 <ehird> If you are pro-letting-society-kill-babies-without-lying-about-it-for-the-greater-good then you are in my camp, welcome.
17:31:43 <ehird> (from reddit troll)
17:31:46 <ehird> what I meant to paste was:
17:31:48 <ehird> Part of the reason is that Verilog, being much like C, is inherently procedural. You don't want to think procedurally with digital logic except for the specific case of state machine design, and even then you have to take into account concurrency. It is this fundamental aspect of concurrency in HDLs that is key to being able to design effectively.
17:31:51 <ehird> ais523: is this true?
17:32:14 <ais523> VHDL/Verilog must not be written in a procedural way for actually generating code
17:32:26 <ais523> Verilog was originally designed for verification, where procedural code is fine
17:32:41 <ais523> but for synthesizing/compiling rather than verifying, writing in a procedural way will give you a mess
17:32:53 <ais523> the only procedural structures that work are if and for, and they're both unrolled
17:34:06 <ais523> AnMaster: Verilog was originally designed for writing testsuites for hardware circuitry
17:34:13 <ais523> whereas VHDL was designed for generating it
17:34:20 <ais523> although they've both stolen all the features of the other
17:34:24 <ais523> so nowadays, either can do either
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17:34:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ok... how would verilog for testing vhdl generated hardware work?
17:34:44 <ais523> AnMaster: you can use VHDL/Verilog to describe how hardware behaves
17:34:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Verilog for testing hardware. In general.
17:35:01 <ais523> most high-end synthesis tools will produce a Verilog/VHDL version of the hardware they've produced
17:35:08 <ais523> (yes, this involves compiling VHDL to VHDL sometimes)
17:35:19 <AnMaster> so then you can run that in a simulator to test it?
17:35:29 <ais523> yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog
17:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought you meant "using verilog for generating hardware that test other hardware"
17:35:43 <ais523> or nowadays, possibly SystemC, which is simulation only
17:35:55 <ais523> although, the simulator uses different parts of the language
17:35:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog <-- err?
17:36:07 <ais523> AnMaster: suppose you want to simulate VHDL code
17:36:13 <ais523> you write a testbench in VHDL
17:36:19 <ais523> and simulate the testbench + code combination
17:36:27 <ais523> the testbench can even throw errors when unexpected things happen
17:36:30 <ais523> and pipe output to a file
17:36:37 <ais523> it links into the program
17:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, ok. So what bit runs the othermore simulator layer?
17:37:08 <ais523> you compile or interpret the VHDL
17:37:16 <ais523> so either you compile it and run the machine code, that's simulation
17:37:23 <ais523> or you interpret the VHDL, that's simulation
17:37:26 <ehird> I herd u liek testing hardware
17:37:33 <ehird> so I put a simulator in your hardware language
17:37:37 <ehird> so you can simulate while you simulate
17:37:44 <ais523> VHDL is incredibly yo dawg, yes
17:37:58 <ais523> it's not unknown to have five versions of the same program, all written in VHDL
17:38:03 <ais523> where the first was compiled into the second by hand
17:38:11 <ais523> which was compiled into the third/fourth/fifth automatically
17:38:15 <pikhq> Emacs' viper-mode is very weird.
17:38:24 <ehird> pikhq: it's kind of rubbish
17:38:30 <ehird> it just steals a few basic key combinations
17:38:34 <ehird> not the essence of vi
17:38:36 <ehird> which is the important bit
17:38:37 <pikhq> It's like: I herd u liek editing so I put an editor in your editor so you can edit while you edit.
17:38:43 <ehird> although the former follows the latter naturally
17:38:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: What, you think I'd *use* it?
17:38:50 <ais523> the fifth version would be a very low-level description of the hardware that would be produced
17:38:53 <ais523> with timing, and everything
17:39:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it...
17:39:14 <pikhq> Honestly, if I'm going to use a Vi-like, I'll just start up Vim.
17:39:22 <pikhq> Just saying it's very weird.
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17:39:42 <pikhq> ... Start up Vim in terminal-mode. :p
17:40:13 <ais523> well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls
17:40:37 <pikhq> ais523: The two don't integrate very well.
17:40:50 <Deewiant> That, and they're vi's, not vim's.
17:42:12 <ehird> 17:39 AnMaster: pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it...
17:42:16 <ehird> i mentioned yo dawg, so.
17:42:28 <ehird> 17:40 ais523: well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls ← but vi's controls aren't important to the philosophy!
17:42:36 <ehird> if you start with vi's philosophy, you'll derive vi's controls
17:42:42 <ais523> viper-mode is Emacs' philosophy, but vi's controls
17:42:42 <ehird> but not the other way around
17:42:45 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> i mentioned yo dawg, so." <-- was that directed to me? If so what do you mean.
17:42:47 <ais523> probably that's why it hasn't caught on
17:42:49 <ehird> ais523: yes, but nobody wants that!
17:42:56 <ehird> AnMaster: pikhq said viper was yo-dawg
17:42:59 <ehird> after me saying something else was
17:43:03 <ehird> i'm assuming that's why
17:53:45 <AnMaster> interesting fact about this ibook...
17:54:02 <AnMaster> when you are downloading something, don't do anything else... even moving the mouse slows down the download
17:54:24 <ais523> AnMaster: is it a network mouse?
17:54:54 * ais523 is not entirely sure network mice exist
17:55:03 <ais523> although I wouldn't be surprised if someone had invented them by now
17:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I never heard of it before
17:55:34 <ehird> hahaha, someone on a torrent site comments thing on a comment told someone obviously using a mac to delete hal.dll (vital windows dll)
17:56:05 <ais523> strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too
17:56:11 <ais523> (it wouldn't be a dll in Windows)
17:56:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too <-- no?
17:56:39 <ais523> AnMaster: most distros use hal/hald nowadays
17:56:48 <ais523> and that's like saying a screen isn't system-critical
17:56:50 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it isn't system critical actually
17:56:54 <ais523> it isn't, but most users want one anyway
17:57:02 <ehird> aaaah i love chiptunes
17:57:17 <ehird> AnMaster: x isn't system-critical either
17:57:25 <ehird> it's still an important component of a linux system
17:57:30 <AnMaster> ais523, system critical: init, libc, kernel, + whatever is needed to get you to a rescue shell
17:57:39 <ehird> rubbish definition
17:57:47 <AnMaster> I'm not saying that users wouldn't want to keep it.
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17:58:03 <ais523> aren't rescue shells statically-linked?
17:58:18 <AnMaster> ais523, they are. But I don't think init is
17:58:33 <ais523> AnMaster: init isn't system-critical anyway
17:58:39 <AnMaster> of course you could do init=/bin/bb in grub
17:58:41 <ais523> you can use any program you like as an init, via a boot option
18:02:11 <psygnisfive> ehird: only if it was someone who is of age!
18:02:19 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDrive#Floppy_disk_drive
18:02:21 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
18:02:29 <ehird> psygnisfive: Erm, no.
18:02:34 <ehird> Sex between two minors is illegal in the UK.
18:02:47 <ehird> Yeah. There's been prosecutions on it.
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18:42:33 <ehird> "Britain’s Supreme Court of Judicature has answered a question that has long puzzled late-night dorm-room snackers: What, exactly, is a Pringle? With citations ranging from Baroness Hale of Richmond to Oliver Wendell Holmes, Lord Justice Robin Jacob concluded that, legally, it is a potato chip."
18:42:39 <ehird> Potatoless potato chip.
18:43:20 <ais523> why does it matter? tax reasons?
18:43:23 <pikhq> Interesting that it would be called a potato chip in Britain, given that they're crisps over there. :p
18:43:52 <ehird> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/opinion/01mon4.html?_r=1
18:43:53 <ais523> although we're aware of American names for things too
18:44:05 <ehird> pikhq: the most irritating thing is that you call chips fries and crisps chips
18:44:34 <ehird> "I'm eating chips." "Mm, potato." "Yeah, I love potato. These are Bacon flavored." "...wait, what?"
18:45:01 <ais523> "a Pringle is “made from potato flour in the sense that one cannot say that it is not made from potato flour, and the proportion of potato flour is significant being over 40 percent.”"
18:45:14 <ais523> AnMaster: tax on different products is at different rates
18:45:15 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean it is discountable, like for charities in US?
18:45:18 <ehird> ais523: this is a good time to make a quote:
18:45:21 <ehird> [[Why, according to Moore, is 'good' like 'yellow' and not like a 'horse'?]]
18:45:26 <ehird> AnMaster: most food is exempt, but crisps aren't.
18:45:35 <ais523> but I think it's VAT that matters here
18:45:39 <AnMaster> so did the tax go up or down now?
18:45:47 <ehird> for the record, the answer is that good and yellow are irreducible concepts while a horse is not.
18:46:09 <ais523> I know that when I needed to import some processors from the US, we had to prove they didn't have a calculator function
18:46:16 <ais523> to get a much lower import duty rate
18:46:21 <ais523> AnMaster: open in a different browser then
18:46:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it does that sometimes
18:46:30 <pikhq> ais523: ... Didn't have a calculator function?
18:46:31 <ehird> AnMaster: use bugmenot/bugmenot
18:46:39 <ehird> AnMaster: hmm, that one may be disabled
18:46:45 <ais523> hmm, well it isn't asking me to log in
18:46:53 <ehird> ais523: it sometimes does
18:46:57 <ehird> http://www.bugmenot.com/view/nytimes.com
18:47:02 <ais523> ehird: random, I wonder?
18:47:07 <ais523> also, wow at that bugmenot feature
18:47:07 <ehird> AnMaster: regisblows/whywhywhy
18:47:12 <ehird> ais523: what feature?
18:47:17 <ais523> I assumed the URL was an auto-login
18:47:21 <ais523> using one of the bugmenot accounts
18:47:29 <ais523> but it isn't, it's just giving you the username/password pair
18:47:36 <ais523> (I know about bugmenot, and have used it on occasion)
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18:47:42 <ehird> ais523: there's a firefox extension
18:47:44 <ais523> (although normally I just avoid websites with stupid login requirements)
18:47:49 <ehird> you right click the user name field and hit bug me not
18:47:50 <ehird> and it submits the form
18:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it doesn't like that I disable cookies...
18:48:00 <ais523> "He was even more dismissive of Procter & Gamble’s argument that to be taxable a product must contain enough potato to have the quality of “potatoness.” This “Aristotelian question” of whether a product has the “essence of potato,” he insisted, simply cannot be answered."
18:48:02 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing to do with that, I imagine
18:48:08 <AnMaster> ehird, since login doesn't work
18:48:13 <ehird> AnMaster: enable cookies, then
18:48:20 * ais523 wonders what affect disabling cookies would have on Phorm
18:48:30 <ehird> ais523: phorm use a complicated redirect scheme
18:48:35 <ehird> just every page redirects to another
18:48:38 <ehird> which redirects to another
18:48:38 <pikhq> ais523: I suppose next they'll start mentioning quales?
18:48:41 <ais523> they use a complicated redirect scheme /and/ cookies
18:48:57 <ehird> sounds like vanilla essence
18:49:13 <ehird> pikhq: it's qualia, you uncultured swine.
18:49:34 <pikhq> ehird: It's retarded, you cultured bourgeoise.
18:49:52 <ehird> pikhq: Your mom, proletarian.
18:50:16 <ehird> [[The inverted spectrum thought experiment, originally developed by John Locke[6] invites us to imagine that we wake up one morning, and find that for some unknown reason all the colors in the world have been inverted. Furthermore, we discover that no physical changes have occurred in our brains or bodies that would explain this phenomenon. Supporters of the existence of qualia argue that, since we can imagine this happening without contradiction]]
18:50:20 <ehird> that's such a retarded argument
18:50:26 <ehird> i can imagine a world where pigs fly without contradiction
18:50:32 <ehird> doesn't mean it's true
18:51:19 <ais523> umm... if all colours were inverted, how would we know they'd been inverted?
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18:51:36 <ehird> ais523: because yesterday we saw something as red and now it's green etc?
18:51:42 <ehird> i'd have thought that'd be pretty obvious
18:51:48 <ais523> how are red and green defined, though?
18:51:48 <Deewiant> The grass outside being red would make it rather obvious
18:51:57 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
18:52:01 <ais523> I suppose you'd need to use a prism or something to actually measure it
18:52:02 <ehird> that's the base of the whole argument
18:52:06 <ehird> ais523: unmeasurable
18:52:09 <ehird> it's about consciousness
18:52:17 <ais523> well, colour is measurable, so it's a bad analogy
18:52:27 <ehird> ais523: cf colourblind people
18:52:33 <ehird> they can measure colour all they want
18:52:37 <ehird> doesn't mean they can perceive their qualia
18:52:55 <ais523> well, everyone percieves colour differently anyway
18:53:10 <ehird> ais523: are you sure about that?
18:53:20 <ehird> ais523: I find that idea highly questionable
18:53:29 <ais523> ehird: because nobody has identical cone pigments, nor connections from the retina to the brain
18:53:42 <ehird> ais523: oh, you mean infinitesimally different
18:53:50 <ais523> well, sometimes it's more than infinitesimal
18:54:01 <ais523> you can find pairs of people where it's infinitesimal, and pairs where it's quite large
18:54:08 <psygnisfive> i enjoy the fact that a number of the anti-qualia people are well know, while the pro-qualia people are /completely/ random nobodies
18:54:08 <ais523> which is where the concept of red/brown colourblindness comes from
18:54:33 <ehird> My view of consciousness is it's the byproduct of the brain's mechanical thought process
18:54:44 <ehird> That doesn't explain what it actually *is*, but it explains what causes it.
18:55:16 <ehird> (I also believe that "death" is relative; you a second ago is dead, but our consciousness tries very hard to give a continuous experience. Go fig)
18:55:41 <psygnisfive> i think consciousness is the brains ability to include amongst its data-to-process the current state of its data-to-process
18:56:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: I am talking about the subjective, personal experience of consciousness
18:56:14 <ehird> I don't believe that consciousnesses are created, destroyed or anything
18:56:27 <ehird> I just believe a conscio is a byproduct of our brain thinking
18:56:38 <ehird> and consciousness is just the perceieved-as-continuous stream of conscios
18:56:45 <psygnisfive> i believe that the experience of consciousness is precisely the experience of being aware of the fact that youre aware of what you're aware of.
18:57:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: right; I'm not saying what the consciousness actually is, your theory is compatible
18:57:27 <ehird> I'm just saying how I think it comes by
18:57:57 <psygnisfive> consciousness explained discusses some interesting things
18:58:00 <ehird> no, dennett appears to be a quack :)
18:58:25 <ehird> dunno about that, I've heard some convincing arguments otherwise
18:58:49 <psygnisfive> they're often colored by misunderstanding or stupid.
18:59:31 <psygnisfive> unless youve actually read dennett, or seen him talk, or whatever, then you dont know what dennett says. you know what people say he says.
18:59:44 <ehird> rephrase #3: logically-based dissection using original data from source.
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19:00:07 <psygnisfive> admittedly, a lot of what he says is not intuitive at all
19:00:22 <psygnisfive> but its almost entirely based on facts of cognitive science, not on hypothesizing.
19:00:36 <psygnisfive> you really should read some of his stuff, if only to know what he himself is saying.
19:01:22 <ehird> by the same argument i should read every quack physics paper that has been dissected and disproved by people whose opinion I value to a degree
19:01:28 <ehird> because hey, they might just be right!112eleventy
19:02:08 <psygnisfive> except, daniel dennett is not a quack, and is probably one of the most important philosophers of mind today.
19:02:22 <ehird> important != not a quack
19:02:31 <ehird> there are plenty of important, popular people who are complete quacks.
19:02:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: also, do you realise you're being a hypocrite?
19:02:46 <psygnisfive> important DOES mean that you should give him some reading
19:02:51 <ehird> "don't rely on someone's opinion of another"
19:02:56 <ehird> "daniel dennett is not a quack"
19:03:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: shit, I have to read everyone who's important's work?
19:03:12 <ehird> my brain might melt
19:03:23 <psygnisfive> but youre saying hes a quack without knowing what he says
19:03:44 <ehird> i guess i mentally blocked the quotes from him in what I've read about him, then?
19:03:48 <ehird> impressive that I still understood
19:04:33 <ehird> i don't recall, surely you've realised that my memory is terrible?
19:04:41 <psygnisfive> since you're so sure you know what hes said, what did you find to be quacking
19:04:45 <ais523> http://law.onecle.com/california/civil/3548.html
19:05:01 <ehird> ais523: it's not even a requirement
19:05:05 <ehird> ais523: that voids the law
19:05:12 <ehird> it is an axiom that the law has been obeyed
19:05:18 <ais523> ehird: quite a few of the other rules around there are interesting too
19:05:18 <ehird> we judge the illegality of an action by the law
19:05:24 <ehird> since it says that the law has been obeyed,
19:05:31 <ais523> ehird: I think there's a loophole, it just means that at least one action hasn't been illegal
19:05:31 <ehird> nobody is ever guilty of the California Civil Code
19:05:38 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
19:05:41 <ehird> ais523: well, imagine:
19:05:46 <ehird> If a person steals, this law has been disobeyed.
19:05:47 <ais523> besides, is it even possible to "break" civil law?
19:06:00 <ehird> I was just using an example
19:06:37 <ehird> i don't actually understand civil law too much
19:07:07 <psygnisfive> civil law is just a bunch of people in the community think you're a jerk so you have to pay.
19:07:10 <ehird> Things happen according to the ordinary course of nature and
19:07:11 <ehird> the ordinary habits of life.
19:07:12 <ehird> A thing continues to exist as long as is usual with things of
19:07:19 <ehird> what the fuck is this code talking about
19:07:21 <ais523> yes, I've seen many of those
19:07:35 <ais523> there is an explanation in there somewhere, I think
19:07:37 <ais523> just not a very good one
19:07:41 <ehird> Where one of two innocent persons must suffer by the act of a
19:07:42 <ehird> third, he, by whose negligence it happened, must be the sufferer.
19:07:45 <ehird> it's a collection of proverbs!
19:07:57 <ehird> An interpretation which gives effect is preferred to one
19:08:03 <ehird> "this law has been obeyed" is effectively void
19:08:13 <ehird> if we say that it means it's been obeyed once
19:08:18 <ehird> and, at least, much more void than "it has been obeyed in this case"
19:08:38 <ais523> I would so love it if some lawyers tried to use those rules to throw out a civil case
19:08:46 <ais523> unfortunately, I think they're sufficiently self-contradictory that that wouldn't work
19:09:04 <ehird> [[Time does not confirm a void act.]]
19:09:18 <ehird> Time is cubic. 4-day harmonious rotation does not interfere.
19:09:25 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:09:25 <ehird> [[Superfluity does not vitiate.]]
19:09:29 <ehird> hahaha this is great
19:10:07 <pikhq> -1*-1=1 is learned stupid.
19:10:15 * ais523 posts the same link in ##nomic
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19:11:08 <ehird> conscio is such a nice word
19:11:18 <ehird> wonder it's conscios or consci?
19:11:31 <ehird> MacBUG - Macarthur Bicycle Users group redirect to http ...
19:11:32 <ehird> Bushwalking and social club based in the Macarthur District of NSW. Includes photos, news, tips, safety and events.
19:11:42 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, A system level debugger from Apple. Useful even if you didn't debug on Pre OS X
19:12:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it was useful for normal users, because it made some crashes manage without reboot
19:12:18 <jix_> wasn't it called macbugs?
19:12:20 <AnMaster> you could kill the relevant app. Sometimes
19:12:29 <ais523> ehird: why did you pick out what's presumably an early Google result and assume it was correct, when it obviously wasn't?
19:12:38 <ais523> that's what AnMaster's supposed to do in response to you
19:12:42 <ehird> ais523: it was the first one, and no others referenced anything in particular
19:12:52 <ehird> ais523: so what he said was thoroughly unhelpful
19:12:52 <impomatic> Any new techniques for BF Joust over the last three days? I've been away.
19:12:59 <ehird> normally when he does it, it's on the same page
19:13:09 <ehird> macsbug returns a result
19:13:11 <jix_> AnMaster: ah just remembered that there was some strange s in there i always forgot
19:13:13 <ehird> MacsBug is an acronym for Motorola Advanced Computer Systems Debugger
19:13:14 <impomatic> Has anyone tried programming in the language of Tierra?
19:13:15 <ais523> the heap rules have changed, though
19:13:25 <ais523> and defend6/7 are winning
19:13:30 <ais523> even though I haven't resubmit them
19:13:32 <AnMaster> hc all says the heap of finder is corrupted
19:13:35 <ais523> presumably, everyone's using [-] nowadays
19:13:42 <AnMaster> only way to handle that is to reboot
19:14:12 <ehird> where's oerjan when you need him
19:14:17 <AnMaster> also in true apple style it has menus
19:14:29 <AnMaster> which work with built in mouse, but not usb ones connected
19:14:46 <ehird> AnMaster: for a logic question
19:14:56 <ais523> I had to REISUB earlier
19:15:06 <ais523> KDE crashed, nothing was working but the mouse pointer
19:15:07 <AnMaster> why did I get nostalgic over this old ibook today
19:15:17 <AnMaster> I remmeber it was your fault ehird. But I don't remember why
19:15:18 <ais523> not even control-alt-f1 (even after SysRq-R) or control-alt-backspace
19:15:23 <ais523> although reisub itself seemed to work fin
19:15:36 <ehird> AnMaster: large resolution for 12" screen
19:15:44 <impomatic> I'm trying to write a small efficient Tierra self-replicating program by hand.
19:15:46 <impomatic> I'm down to 22 instructions and 143 cycles.
19:15:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I upgraded it to 9.2.2 now
19:16:06 <ehird> AnMaster: stick linux on it
19:16:10 <ehird> always nice to have a computer
19:16:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I have booted it with gentoo once
19:16:24 <AnMaster> I only keep it for some old mac games
19:16:29 <ehird> AnMaster: compilation time would be prohibitive for gentoo
19:16:50 <AnMaster> ehird, would have to distcc to a cross toolchain on my pc
19:16:57 <ehird> AnMaster: or... use a binary distro
19:17:12 <ais523> why not just compile a cross-toolchain from scratch?
19:17:15 <ais523> you have gcc source, don't you?
19:17:18 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway that would be defeating the point.
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19:17:22 <ehird> ais523: do you know what distcc is?
19:17:24 <AnMaster> ais523, .. you missed the point did you?
19:17:35 <ais523> ehird: no, I can guess but I might have guessed wrong
19:18:03 <ais523> well, if it's in your interest that I know what you're talking about, then you can tell me
19:18:09 <ais523> if it isn't, then we both have more important things to do
19:18:16 <AnMaster> ais523, it allows spreading compiles over several computers.
19:18:28 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, interesting
19:18:31 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, please don't feed his hate of using the web
19:18:34 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you think it was?
19:18:35 <ais523> what about make -jn? could it be modified to do that?
19:18:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm with ais523 here. Since I share this hate.
19:18:54 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the whole point of it...
19:18:59 <ais523> ehird: the Web is one of the most annoying and least useful parts of the Internet
19:19:05 <ais523> just people keep putting things there for some reason
19:19:19 <ais523> think about it this way: aren't you really annoyed when you phone someone and get an automated system?
19:19:25 <ehird> ais523: where do you think wikipedia belongs. Gopher
19:19:31 <ais523> now, would you rather have Google at the other end of the phone, or AnMaster?
19:19:34 <AnMaster> anyone remember good old NORTON Utilities. From before it was Symantec?
19:19:46 <ais523> actually, I have no idea how ehird would answer that question
19:19:49 <ehird> ais523: broken analogy
19:19:56 <ehird> the web is not like phoning up an automated system
19:19:57 <ais523> but it's still a good question
19:19:59 <ehird> so my answer is mu
19:20:06 <ais523> ehird: and no, it isn't; but it is if you use a search engine
19:20:07 <ehird> ais523: also, considering how much I argue with AnMaster, Google
19:20:45 -!- impomatic has left (?).
19:20:59 <AnMaster> Hit Cmd-Q to quit app. Get: "PowerPC unmapped memory exception at 3E217A40" in MacsBug
19:21:40 <ehird> "100dpi is Not Enough - Thursday 1 July, 2004"
19:21:49 <ehird> This person numbers all his years by subtracting 10 from them.
19:23:09 <AnMaster> Fun fact: MPW's "worksheet" is a mix between a shell and the "*scratch*" buffer in emacs...
19:23:24 <ehird> emacs *scratch* is a shell
19:23:27 <ais523> AnMaster: the *scratch* buffer in emacs is a mix between a shell and the *scratch* buffer in Emacs
19:23:43 <ehird> ais523: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWGGGGGGGG
19:24:11 <ais523> it's meant to be true /and/ funny
19:25:24 <ais523> has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw?
19:25:36 <ais523> the descriptions remind me of some sort of ridiculously overcomplicated gobby
19:25:44 <ais523> only Google owns your data not you
19:25:48 <ais523> but I may have the wrong end of the stick
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19:25:53 <ehird> ais523: it's not that
19:26:12 <ehird> it's like gobby with IM client features that does any kind of data, not just text
19:26:19 <ehird> ais523: also, it's federated + open protocol
19:26:23 <ehird> you can run your own google wave server
19:26:30 <ehird> and communicate with people on other servers, including google's official one
19:26:41 <ehird> so you could do a google wave communication completely bypassing google
19:26:51 <ehird> I don't like the idea of people seeing what I type as I type it, so I wouldn't use it as IM
19:26:55 <ehird> but for collaboration, it could be interesting
19:27:09 <ais523> reminds me of Google Docs in that case
19:27:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw? <-- what is it
19:27:15 <ehird> AnMaster: i just told you...
19:27:17 <ais523> AnMaster: read conversation?
19:27:25 <AnMaster> that is WORSE than googling ;P
19:27:27 <ehird> ais523: it's google docs, but with name tags, essentially
19:27:38 <ehird> AnMaster: so you want me to psychically tell you?
19:27:41 <ehird> ais523: and distributedness
19:27:46 <ais523> not a bad idea, really
19:27:56 <ehird> http://www.waveprotocol.org/draft-protocol-spec
19:27:57 <ais523> although it's one of those things where the amount of hype annoys me
19:28:01 <ehird> seems a bit incomplete
19:28:06 <ehird> ais523: tech media is bunk
19:28:06 <ais523> even if it's only a few millialphas
19:28:52 <ehird> i'm still trying to recover from the shock of someone in 2004 saying that 100dpi is low resolution
19:29:14 <ehird> (and trying to futz with values to figure out what their 150dpi screen was)
19:30:10 <ehird> can't be that, must be bigger
19:30:25 <ehird> 2048x1152 @ 19" is only 123dpi
19:30:55 <Asztal> what DPI do you use, anyway?
19:31:07 <ehird> pikhq: I'm trying to figure out what this 150dpi screen in 2004 was
19:31:08 <pikhq> That's just silly.
19:31:20 <ehird> Asztal: This iMac has a 20" @ 16something x 1050.
19:31:36 <ehird> I'm probably going for a 94-96dpi screen for my new box, due to ubiquityness.
19:31:45 <ehird> but in 2004, 30" displays were the hugest there ever was
19:31:50 <ehird> so I'm guessing 1x-2x
19:32:02 <ehird> plus a 150dpi 50" display would have to be a gazillion x a bajillion
19:32:04 <Deewiant> Isn't that still pretty much the hugest there is? :-P
19:32:10 <ehird> Deewiant: well, yeh
19:32:26 <ehird> 2560x1600 @ 20" = 150dpi
19:32:32 <Asztal> # 1920x1200 @ 15.4 Dell Inspiron 6000
19:32:47 <ehird> Asztal: SAME PPI CALCULATOR BUDDIES
19:33:21 <Asztal> ah, I figured you were just guessing :)
19:33:32 <ehird> Asztal: nope, I'm feeding values into it
19:34:10 <ehird> "I already run with Small Fonts on my 150ppi screen, and use 9pt for all my text editing."
19:34:17 <ehird> my consolation is that this guy is probably blind by now
19:34:29 <ehird> 21 characters per fucking inch
19:35:12 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:38:37 <ehird> Asztal: there should be one where you can put in a dpi and a screen size
19:38:41 <ehird> and it gives you the resolution
19:39:10 -!- tetha has joined.
19:40:33 <ehird> "McVities defended its classification of Jaffa Cakes as cakes. In doing so it produced a 12" Jaffa Cake to illustrate that its Jaffa Cakes were simply miniature cakes."
19:40:38 <ehird> Our logic is undeniable!
19:40:46 * ehird makes a 12" digestive biscuit
19:41:08 <Asztal> heh, I read that before too
19:41:18 <ehird> om nom nom nom nom
19:41:29 <ehird> hmm maybe the topic will put people off answering my his :)
19:41:41 <ehird> tetha: haven't seen your name around; you new?
19:42:02 <tetha> yep, learned about this channel earlier today and figured I'd take a look
19:42:17 <ehird> okay, um, I'd like to get this out of the way since it happens so often: we're about esoteric programming languages, not magic or witchcraft or anything of that sort
19:42:21 <ais523> here for esolang discussion, or the jousting?
19:42:22 <ehird> there, now we can all get on
19:42:37 <ehird> (yes, we do get people thinking that...)
19:42:39 <tetha> I certainly hope this is about sligtly less usable languages :)
19:42:50 <ehird> tetha: It depends on your definition of "slightly".
19:42:50 <ais523> slightly can be an understatement on occasiono
19:43:26 <ehird> It sounds like a good idea if only I knew what it meant.
19:43:42 <tetha> hehe... yes, malbolge is "slightly" unusable... sort of
19:43:48 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
19:44:14 <ehird> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html
19:44:19 <ehird> i bet it only took a few months to write too
19:44:36 <FireFly> It's all pretty straight forward, isn't it?
19:44:51 <ehird> I mean, the squiggly bit there
19:44:56 <ehird> And the wave pattern there.
19:45:03 <ehird> Translates to "print out the 99 bottles of beer song".
19:45:10 <ehird> Yes, ladies and gentlemen; Malbolge is an elaborate hoax.
19:45:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection reset by peer).
19:45:18 <ehird> If you decode its spec and understand its very nature of working...
19:45:25 <ehird> It's just an obfuscated HQ9+.
19:45:36 <FireFly> Slereah_, now THAT would be difficult to understand
19:45:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:45:50 <ehird> FireFly: 99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html
19:45:53 <ehird> 'Tis a real language
19:45:54 <ehird> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html
19:46:21 <ais523> Plain English is /awful/
19:46:27 <ais523> and apparently intended seriously
19:46:30 <ais523> meaking them even worse than us
19:46:31 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet").
19:46:35 <oerjan> <ehird> where's oerjan when you need him
19:46:37 <ehird> ais523: we've proved it TC, iirc
19:46:40 <ais523> ehird: how does it compare to BancSTAR?
19:46:53 <ehird> ais523: oh, it's easier to program in
19:47:04 <ehird> but you just get going— yeah, i've read the manual, hey, this is working
19:47:09 <FireFly> I think I confused it with English (the esolang)
19:47:12 <ehird> ooh, a stupid restriction
19:47:18 <ehird> damn, how do I do this
19:47:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:47:21 <ehird> oh shit is THAT how that works?
19:47:24 <ehird> oh crap it doesn't extend to
19:47:27 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!!
19:47:34 <ehird> Slereah_ can also attest to this
19:47:44 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:47:56 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't help that the manual continually calls windows kludges and whores and generally harasses you
19:48:09 <ehird> *windows a kludge and a whore
19:48:16 <ehird> "Not to be confused with ENGLISH, a (non-esoteric) SQL-like programming language used in the old Pick operating system."
19:48:20 <ehird> I was so confusing it with that.
19:48:22 <ais523> well, if you've ever tried to program for Windows, you'll know the feeling
19:48:25 <ehird> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/English)
19:48:28 <ais523> but it isn't /quite/ as bad at that
19:49:42 <ais523> hmm... who was it here who was trying to write an esolang which was completely readable by a non-programmer, yet interpretable by an interp?
19:49:51 <ais523> they wanted to come up with the language first
19:49:55 <ehird> The osmosian order? :P
19:49:59 <ais523> then write DeCSS in it (legal, according to US precedent)
19:50:07 <ais523> then write the interp (thus retroactively making the program illegal)
19:50:37 <ehird> ais523: i don't think the program would become illegal
19:50:41 <ehird> if it was sufficiently english-like
19:50:49 <ais523> even if there's an interp?
19:50:57 <ehird> ais523: i can write an interpreter that interprets Macbeth
19:51:02 <ehird> as a DeCSS program
19:51:05 <ehird> without hardcoding it in particular
19:51:08 <ehird> does that make Macbeth illegal? No.
19:51:14 <ehird> of course, intent is everything
19:51:14 <ais523> ehird: that's an interesting point
19:51:18 <ais523> would the interp then be illegal, I wonder?
19:51:23 <ehird> so you might want to get someone to write decss and just suggest some quirks of language
19:51:24 <ais523> I suspect you'd have to deliberately aim for deCSS
19:51:26 <ehird> without telling them your plan
19:51:36 <ehird> ais523: not neccessarily
19:51:39 <ehird> in all likelihood, yes
19:51:41 <ehird> but theoretically, no
19:51:46 <oerjan> double, double, toil and trouble
19:52:47 <ais523> how's BF Joust getting on?
19:53:03 <ais523> I still don't get how a couple of my ancient programs are back at the top of the leaderboard, without me resubmitting
19:53:06 <ais523> even with all the rules changes
19:53:20 <pikhq> ais523: Well, someone has already devised a programming language for DeCSS. It has a DeCSS implemenation, but is not itself implemented...
19:53:37 <ais523> pikhq: is it HQ9+-style?
19:53:48 <pikhq> No. It's a C-like language.
19:53:54 <ais523> (even if not, we should /so/ add a DeCSS command to HQ9+...)
19:54:46 <ehird> The best of all worlds.
19:55:06 <oerjan> <ehird> he managed to put all the correct ones second <-- it did happen to be alphabetical order
19:55:25 <ais523> ehird: also, some people would disagree with you
19:55:32 <ais523> although I agree with you on the non-programming-related one
19:55:37 <ehird> ais523: unpossible
19:55:40 <ais523> back when I drank cola, I did prefer Pepsi to Coca-Cola
19:55:40 <ehird> i'm objectively right, always
19:55:47 <ais523> although I don't drink it nowadays
19:56:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: *reads <-- no. It was "has read"
19:56:17 <pikhq> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt
19:56:19 <ehird> AnMaster: "I read" would work
19:56:23 <ehird> "AnMaster read" doesn't really
19:56:30 <ehird> AnMaster read works
19:56:32 <ehird> AnMaster read the convo now
19:56:36 <pikhq> Trivial to compile to C.
19:56:50 <pikhq> I mean, really, sed would do it...
19:57:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:57:01 <ehird> pikhq: I'm going to write a compiler for that now
19:57:04 <ehird> as I am contrarian
19:57:20 <pikhq> ehird: You will retroactively make it illegal.
19:57:35 <ehird> I can't make someone else retroactively do something illegal
19:57:37 <ehird> I don't have that legal power
19:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, well that was what it meant. Except in English it is "read" but pronounced as "red" in past.
19:57:45 <ehird> distributing it w/ knowledge of the compiler will become illegal, though
19:57:49 <AnMaster> thus what I wrote was correct as far as I can tell ehird
19:57:51 <ehird> AnMaster: the fact is your sentence was invalid
19:57:59 <ehird> ais523: [[* AnMaster read the convo now]] - invalid, agreed?
19:58:01 <ehird> or at least very awkward
19:58:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah english really blue it
19:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, would have to be "/me walkeds foo"
19:58:21 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:58:32 <FireFly> I also thought the "readed" was a bit odd
19:59:19 <AnMaster> FireFly, that is because it is "read" in past tense
19:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: logic doesn't change what is valid about a language
19:59:49 <AnMaster> that is why it has to be "* AnMaster read the convo now". It is "AnMaster <past tense of "to read"> the convo now".
20:00:10 <oerjan> orange you glad english spelling is so logical
20:00:32 <AnMaster> since that would imply present tense
20:00:53 <ehird> AnMaster: it just is invalid
20:01:01 <ehird> ask psygnisfive if you want to know the linguistic reason, I don't
20:01:07 <AnMaster> ehird, why. Is "AnMaster walked to the house now" invalid too?
20:01:13 <ehird> I'm just a native speaker and I know that it's either incredibly awkward or invalid
20:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Step 1. Read past two messages. Step 2. Repeat until comprehension is achieved.
20:01:41 <ais523> ehird: I think it's valid but incredibly awkward, the original
20:01:48 <ais523> likewise, for the new one
20:01:56 <ais523> you're mixing past tense with an indication of the present
20:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: the correct form is "I've read the convo now"
20:02:21 <oerjan> i was sort of hoping for a groaning yellow epic proportions here...
20:02:22 <ehird> "AnMaster read the" = "I read the"
20:02:29 <ehird> and correctness needs I → I've
20:02:33 <ais523> "have read", not "read", makes it work better
20:02:42 <ais523> as it's "have read by now", a sort of past version of the future perfect
20:03:00 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that was the intention
20:03:15 <AnMaster> the thing I was saying here was that ehird's "reads*" correction was not correct.
20:03:17 <ehird> I have written a perl compiler from DeCSSLanguage to C
20:03:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought you meant you were reading it now
20:03:35 <ehird> because it was awkward, but not if you added an s
20:03:38 <AnMaster> ehird, If so I would have used "reads"
20:03:47 <ehird> AnMaster: oh come on, like you don't make trivial typos all the time
20:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, it isn't my fault English writes it as "read" but pronounces it either as "read" or "red"
20:04:06 <ehird> my brain thinks you making a trivial typo is more likely than you making a horribly warped sentence, and so assumed the former
20:04:10 <ehird> ...........................................
20:04:14 <ehird> what's it got to do with pronounciation
20:04:27 <AnMaster> ehird, because the spelling is confusing in such cases
20:04:54 <AnMaster> if it has been a verb that you added the standard "ed" to to make past tense it would have been harder to misunderstood
20:05:02 <AnMaster> same for if I had _said_ "red"
20:05:27 <AnMaster> (and yes I'm aware of those two "to", but as far as I can tell it is valid?)
20:05:46 <ehird> ais523: what's a better way of doing 'print func <>'?
20:05:50 <ehird> for <> = whole input
20:05:54 <ehird> AnMaster: go speak lojban
20:05:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think you need the first "has" to be "had", though
20:06:40 <AnMaster> I don't proof read IRC lines, but if I had I think I would have detected that had.
20:06:58 <AnMaster> it definitely stands out if you read it aloud.
20:07:04 <FireFly> Maybe it changed word class as we speak?
20:09:49 <AnMaster> FireFly, hm? Had had been has you might have been correct (and I'm not sure about that "have"...)
20:15:29 <ehird> Uncivil disobedience: http://pastie.org/496882.txt?key=guczgfl0y62fnulv88jhg
20:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the point of the original...
20:16:30 <ehird> AnMaster: it's US law related
20:16:42 <ehird> don't try to understand, you'll spend half an hour preaching to the choir about how it's stupid
20:17:16 <GregorR-L> ehird: "Please do not write a compiler or interpreter for this language." lawl
20:17:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what DeCSS is (breaking copy protection...) but why doesn't he want a compiler for that language?
20:17:48 <ehird> AnMaster: because that makes the program illegal
20:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, he should have a human readable description of the algorithm instead. Would be safer.
20:18:21 <ehird> that defeats the point entirely
20:18:44 <GregorR-L> The point is basically to make fun of DMCA.
20:19:20 <ehird> he has an email address
20:19:23 <ehird> I'm going to email him that program
20:19:36 <ehird> AnMaster: i s/byte/char/ previously
20:19:40 <ehird> i've tested the compilation
20:19:42 <ehird> only main is missing
20:19:48 <ehird> you should make a library out of it in one line
20:19:55 <ehird> curl http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt | perl decsslang.pl | gcc -x c /dev/stdin <stuff>
20:20:54 <ehird> let's hope the :-) in the subject line offsets the anger of "Fuck you"
20:21:14 <ehird> i'm such a bastard
20:21:26 <FireFly> Remember to paste the reaction
20:22:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed irritated when I cared all about edge cases...
20:22:33 <ehird> AnMaster: ... whut
20:22:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you have been that before.?
20:22:51 <ehird> what are you talking about?
20:22:57 <ehird> I'm trying to figure out any context at all
20:23:09 <AnMaster> ehird, the context will happen later
20:23:21 <ehird> ais523: can you tell me what AnMaster is talking about?
20:23:29 <AnMaster> ehird, however, were you or were you not irritated when I started talking about edge cases before
20:23:32 <ehird> as far as I can tell from his last line, he's replying to something I'll say in the future
20:23:41 <AnMaster> both for cfunge, and for other stuff
20:23:50 <AnMaster> like new language ideas you had
20:24:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't answer questions without context. :)
20:24:21 <ehird> Then 'tis a pointless question.
20:24:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it could be argued that this "no such language" is such an edge case of the DMCA law anyway...
20:24:43 <AnMaster> not that I'm saying I consider it so
20:24:49 -!- nooga has joined.
20:24:53 <ehird> i just did it for fun
20:24:57 <AnMaster> ehird, so edge cases aren't important? ;P
20:24:58 <ehird> and I don't think the concept is legally valid
20:25:01 <pikhq> I'd say there's so very much sickeningly wrong with the DMCA.
20:25:26 <ehird> Step 1. Repeal DMCA. Step 2. Repeal patents. Step 3. Repeal copyright law.
20:25:39 <ehird> ↑ Nevergetelectedeverneverforeverintheus Anonymous
20:25:45 <ehird> 3-step program to not getting elected in the US.
20:25:46 <nooga> http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps
20:25:56 <pikhq> ehird: Step 4. Create sane copyright law. Step 5. Create sane patent law.
20:26:13 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, that stance will work. ... 50 years from now.
20:26:20 <ehird> pikhq: sane copyright law. Right. Also, go about making paint dry faster.
20:26:28 <ehird> FURTHERMORE, any water caught being wet will be prosecuted.
20:26:29 <pikhq> ... When the Pirate Party is completely and utterly done in Europe.
20:27:12 <ehird> the only part of copyright law that might be worth keeping in any form, is preventing someone taking your work and changing the name
20:27:12 <FireFly> Uh.. that just sounds odd when directly translated from Swedish
20:27:17 <pikhq> nooga: Ah, The Last Question. One of my favorite Asimov short stories.
20:27:24 <ehird> FireFly: It is a bit of an odd name.
20:27:27 <ehird> Piratpartiet sounds nicer.
20:27:48 <nooga> ehird: many things in swedish sound nice
20:27:55 <nooga> i like to hear that language
20:28:05 <pikhq> ehird: Well, that *is* the only enforcable bit.
20:28:32 <nooga> pikhq: first impression: MULTIVAC -> google
20:28:34 <ehird> pikhq: OTOH the actual enforcing of it isn't very good and there's a ton of gray areas
20:28:42 <AnMaster> <nooga> http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps << tl;dr
20:28:43 <nooga> last impression: AC -> God
20:28:57 <ehird> AC = Singularity, more like.
20:29:03 <ehird> Rather rubbish singularity though, letting us die out like that.
20:29:08 <ehird> And then "exiting time" whatever that means.
20:29:08 <nooga> that's more suitable name
20:29:15 <nooga> i don't believe in God
20:29:18 <AnMaster> FireFly, hm.. men är det inte "piratpartiet"?
20:29:19 <ehird> Don't give a damn about the Universe existing if everyone's kicked the bucket :)
20:29:22 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, piratpartiet
20:29:34 <AnMaster> so why are you saying it sounds odd?
20:29:36 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party
20:29:44 <ehird> nice that sweden's progressing politically faster than others
20:29:46 <AnMaster> isn't "party" the relevant translation of a political party?
20:29:47 <FireFly> It just sounds odd in English
20:30:03 <FireFly> But I still find it odd, I'm used to the swedish wording, all right?
20:30:14 <FireFly> I've never seen it in english before :P
20:30:23 <pikhq> FireFly: Doesn't sound odd to me.
20:30:47 <FireFly> Well, you're not natively Swedish speaking
20:30:49 * pikhq looks forward to having Pirates in office.
20:30:53 <ehird> Hey, last I heard Piratpartiet was the 4th largest party.
20:30:59 <pikhq> No, but I'm natively English speaking.
20:31:33 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah. It's estimated that it'll get a couple seats in EU Parliament.
20:31:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Piratpartiet have the third largest membership of any Swedish political party.
20:32:06 <pikhq> (here's to election systems that aren't winner takes all)
20:32:11 <AnMaster> but is it third in opinionsundersökningarna (wth is that in English?) for the EU election?
20:32:16 <ais523> go Europeon elections!
20:32:32 <ehird> The words peon and peonage are derived from the Spanish peón (pe'on). It has a range of meanings but its primary usage is to describe labourers with little control over their employment conditions.
20:32:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:33:06 <ehird> ais523: i like how the BNP are on the european election ballot. made me think for a second :)
20:33:28 <pikhq> ehird: British Nationalist?
20:33:41 <ehird> they're basically nazis
20:33:49 <ehird> and naturally hate the EU with a fiery passion
20:33:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Approximately 8% of the Swedish population will vote Pirate, according to polls...
20:34:07 <GregorR-L> ehird: They just want to destroy it from the inside!
20:34:13 <AnMaster> I read it as 6% or so last time
20:34:30 <pikhq> http://www.dn.se/fordjupning/europa2009/piratpartiet-far-tva-mandat-i-ny-matning-1.879371
20:34:44 <pikhq> (read claim from Wikipedia, since I don't speak Swedish)
20:34:45 <ehird> pikhq: the best part of the BNP is UKIP (UK Independence Party). They claim they're the only party that wants to leave the EU (hem hem BNP don't count hrrrr) and opposes immigration and blah BUT DON'T BE SWAYED BY EXTREMISTS! Don't vote for a "racist party" that stands for our racist ideals (hem hem bnp HACK COUGH)! Vote for us!
20:35:07 <ehird> pikhq: FÖRDJUPNING.
20:35:10 <ehird> that logo looks awesome
20:35:14 <ehird> ais523: read my message again
20:35:17 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, "brilliant"
20:35:20 <ehird> I meant that the best thing about the BNP is UKIP
20:35:25 <AnMaster> "travels 'tva' places in new feeding"
20:35:44 <ehird> FÖRDJUPNING. = RECESS.
20:35:45 <AnMaster> "receives two places in new measurement"
20:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um. That may be one meaning
20:36:07 <pikhq> ehird: Call me ignorant about their views, but... Isn't the EU damned good for all involved?
20:36:09 * AnMaster wonders how to properly translate
20:36:21 <ehird> pikhq: Yes. The BNP/UKIP are crazy right wingers.
20:36:30 <ehird> pikhq: BNP descends from the National Front.
20:36:36 <GregorR-L> Well, the GBP is stronger than the Euro.
20:36:56 <ehird> pikhq: founder of the BNP once said:
20:37:00 <ehird> "Mein Kampf is my bible."
20:37:02 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Which is part of why the UK isn't part of the Euro Zone.
20:37:13 <ehird> AnMaster: "INDEPTH."
20:37:13 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, so they're the national socialists.
20:37:18 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Yeah, but the EU isn't exactly happy about that :P
20:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that could work. But yes it has several possible translations
20:37:33 <pikhq> GregorR-L: They do permit it, but... Yeah.
20:37:44 <GregorR-L> pikhq, ehird: IIRC, it's some loophole.
20:37:44 <ehird> the UK negotiated an exception
20:37:47 <FireFly> If I get famous some day, I'll say something in the lines of "The following statement is a lie. <dumb statement>"
20:37:50 <ehird> other countries used loopholes
20:37:53 <FireFly> Just to see how much I get quoted for it
20:37:56 <ehird> but the UK just voted themselves an exception
20:38:06 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's something explicitly written in for the UK.
20:38:13 <AnMaster> ehird, which is why automatic translators suck in general. Because a one-to-one mapping usually doesn't work to create an idiomatic (or even correct) translation.
20:38:27 <oerjan> i think denmark also has an exception, while sweden is loopy
20:38:32 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Other countries in the EU without the Euro are claiming to not have an economy that could support it yet.
20:38:38 <ehird> oerjan: sweden don't use a loophole
20:38:44 <ehird> they use the officially-sanctioned "our market is too tin"
20:38:46 <kerlo> oerjan: I did use the present perfect progressive tense; I just didn't do so in my announcement that I was doing so.
20:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: FÖRDJUPNING. → Recess | in-depth | bathtub
20:38:55 <oerjan> ehird: that _is_ their loophole
20:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, No way about the latter one
20:39:02 <ehird> oerjan: but that's not a loophole
20:39:04 <ehird> oerjan: it's by design
20:39:07 <AnMaster> I never heard it meaning bathtub
20:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: No, no, I'm sure about this. It's science.
20:39:17 <ehird> AnMaster: It also means large green baby.
20:39:31 <ehird> And terrorist communist mutant.
20:39:36 <ehird> And jumping on top of Fords.
20:40:07 <ehird> you know what would be fun?
20:40:20 <ehird> if everyone on the planet apart from one person swapped the meanings of yes/no suddenly one day
20:40:21 <AnMaster> ehird, fördjupning probably doesn't mean ALL the meanings that recess has even
20:40:28 <ehird> like, we can vote for the most hated person in the world
20:40:39 <ehird> AnMaster: which ones?
20:40:59 <AnMaster> from google translate: "a small concavity" "an enclosure that is set back or indented"
20:41:07 <AnMaster> but not the other ones listed in the first group
20:41:39 <ais523> ehird: why not make that one person swap instead?
20:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, so now you know why translating back and forth with google nevers ends up at the same text
20:41:45 <ais523> comes to the same thing, but is much less annoying
20:41:48 <ais523> you don't have to replace books, etc
20:41:56 <ehird> ais523: how? you'd have to convince them to. the idea is to make them go insane
20:42:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I already knew why
20:42:09 <ais523> ehird: there are easier ways
20:42:33 <ehird> "This tie has not been shown. The prosecutor must show that Carl Lundström personally has interacted with the user King Kong, who may very well be found in the jungles of Cambodia..." —Pirate Bay trial
20:42:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, isn't correct machine translation a strong AI problem iirc?
20:42:48 <ais523> the King Kong defence was great
20:42:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Comprehending things in general is.
20:43:01 <ehird> And translation is comprehending then restating.
20:43:01 <ais523> it's not the Chewbacca defence, in that it generally makes sense
20:43:11 <ehird> ais523: reminds me of it, though
20:43:14 <pikhq> It's still great, though.
20:43:22 <AnMaster> ehird, so why does google even TRY
20:43:31 <ehird> AnMaster: It's incredibly useful
20:43:33 <AnMaster> because in general it is gibberish
20:43:37 <ehird> I've read news articles with it before
20:43:38 <nooga> let's ask MULTIVAC
20:43:39 <tetha> hm, so translation is compilation
20:43:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because Google wants strong AI.
20:43:41 <ehird> for a native speaker, it's easy to understand
20:43:49 <ehird> you just have to fill in the gaps
20:43:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well, maybe "to English" works better than "to Swedish"
20:43:52 <ehird> and you can very well get the gist
20:43:58 <ehird> AnMaster: 'cuz english is more common
20:44:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: To English works decently.
20:44:17 <nooga> problem is that some laguages have more complex constructs and vocabulary than english
20:44:18 <pikhq> It certainly isn't correct English, but it at least gives you a clue.
20:44:24 <ehird> why is english any worse than swedish?
20:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird, It would be fun if it was YOU who had the problems with not being a native speaker instead of me.
20:44:32 <nooga> so that the translator must deduce right words and cases from the context
20:44:42 <nooga> and for this, culture is required
20:44:45 <ehird> AnMaster: If I wanted to learn Swedish I would.
20:44:54 <jix_> what i would really like is a tool that does only grammar parsing of the text and word translations
20:45:01 <AnMaster> ehird, You would still not manage it as well as a native speaker
20:45:09 <jix_> because that are both things that machines can do
20:45:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant, if I learned Swedish I would have your problems.
20:45:21 <ehird> jix_: no, grammatical parsing is not perfect
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20:45:30 <jix_> ehird: i didn't say perfect
20:45:31 <nooga> jix_: sentences in spoken languages often aren't 100% grammatically correct
20:45:33 <pikhq> jix_: Parsing English is probably strong AI.
20:45:35 <ehird> (btw machines can do anything)
20:45:36 <AnMaster> heck I bet it would be harder than English. Since you have simple rules for when it is "a" and when it is "an". We don't have simple ones for "en" and "ett" iirc.
20:45:53 <AnMaster> rather, it is more like things being either "le" or "la" in French.
20:45:54 <pikhq> jix_: Now, doing that with *Lojban*?
20:46:10 <ehird> lojban's official grammar is written in yacc. but it's terribly arcane yacc
20:46:23 * ais523 thinks that the BF Joust leaderboard is pretty atm
20:46:26 <pikhq> ehird: Actually, Lojban's official grammar is written in BNF.
20:46:38 <jix_> pikhq: ok let me rephrase it... it's easier to get computesr to parse grammer than to get them to restate sentences in a different langauge
20:46:39 <ais523> because all the defence programs are grouped in the middle
20:46:40 <ehird> ("Real ganstas sip on yacc, you just generate a parser")
20:46:43 <ais523> so you get a big block of 0s
20:46:48 <pikhq> The Yacc code they publish is generally thought to be equivalent, but the BNF is the official one.
20:46:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW
20:47:07 <ehird> Presumably because it's old
20:47:09 <nooga> sentences may be ambiguous
20:47:10 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300
20:47:28 <ehird> hmm not as arcane as I recall
20:47:38 <ehird> I am disappointed that nobody pickde up on my quote
20:48:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
20:48:48 <AnMaster> " preparser will not lex the individual words per their normal selma'o; used to quote ungrammatical Lojban"
20:49:01 <AnMaster> "equivalent to the * or ? writing"
20:49:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you have special quotes for "free form" language or something?
20:49:29 <ehird> AnMaster: if you want to quote english/french/C/etc, there is syntax for that
20:49:39 <ehird> there's a difference between, e.g. in english
20:49:43 <AnMaster> why is the source code comments in English btw
20:49:43 <ehird> [["dog" would work]]
20:49:48 <ehird> [["return 4;" would work]]
20:49:58 <ehird> AnMaster: because most lojban speakers aren't fluent
20:50:05 <ehird> and it is of interest to non-speakers too
20:50:19 <ehird> iirc there's only ~3 fluent lojban speakers (can think & talk in lojban without mental translation)
20:50:32 <pikhq> A large part of Lojban's interest is in AI research.
20:50:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I can actually think in both Swedish an English. I think in English when programming definitely
20:50:55 <pikhq> It's certainly easier to do language handling when you have a syntax.
20:51:09 <ehird> AnMaster: but do you think in swedish for a split second and then translate to english?
20:51:15 <ehird> even if you don't notice
20:51:20 <AnMaster> ehird, not so that I notice it at least
20:51:33 <AnMaster> not sure how you could measure if I notice it or not
20:51:52 * pikhq should learn Toki Pona.
20:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird, but some stuff I definitely don't know what they are called in Swedish
20:52:09 <ehird> pikhq: it's easy; an afternoon's work
20:52:13 <ehird> IF your brain is wired for it
20:52:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I had problems trying to translate to the Swedish terms when talking about programming in Swedish
20:52:18 <ehird> I am unable to learn any new languages
20:52:20 <jix_> ehird: when programming i usually think in english too
20:52:24 <ehird> I can learn the terms, how to put it together, ...
20:52:29 <ehird> but my brain never adds a new language to my system
20:52:32 <jix_> ehird: because for many terms and expresions i don't even know the translations
20:52:53 <pikhq> Mi eblas lerni lingvojn.
20:52:54 <AnMaster> I have no clue what the correct term for "array" is in Swedish for example
20:52:57 <ehird> pikhq: also, Toki Pona relies on saphir-whorf being strongly true
20:53:07 <AnMaster> pretty sure I heard it though... was something extremely silly
20:53:20 <AnMaster> which sounds more like "field"
20:53:43 <pikhq> ehird: I'd assume Sonja knew that. Linguist and all.
20:53:51 <jix_> and i notice that i have real problems in german conversations about programming
20:53:53 <ehird> lemme find some quacky quotes
20:54:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so yes I'm pretty sure I think in English when programming
20:54:28 <ehird> pikhq: but basically, the site says that it changes your thinking to be positive and shit
20:54:41 <jix_> like i want to say something and mid sentence i notice i just can't ...
20:54:54 <ehird> lament was one of the first toki pona people thingy and he says sonja is batshit insane :)
20:55:07 <AnMaster> ehird, and I just tried to translate what I wrote above to Swedish. Took about 10 seconds. If I had thought it in Swedish surely it would be easy to backtranslate it?
20:55:16 <ehird> AnMaster: not necessarily
20:55:23 <pikhq> I seem to recall Sukoshi looking into it, as well.
20:55:26 <tetha> jix_: I tend to just switch to english in that case (usually causing angry looks)
20:55:35 <pikhq> Hmm. Okay, toki pona? Not worth it.
20:55:42 <AnMaster> ehird, heck, I can express things in English I can't in Swedish and vice versa.
20:55:50 <jix_> tetha: i often end up in an awfull mix of german and english
20:55:50 <ehird> pikhq: as a language it's nice though
20:55:55 <ehird> AnMaster: then you're probably fluent to a degree
20:56:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not of course as fluent in English as I'm in Swedish. But for certain topics I'm probably more fluid in English yeah. Like programming.
20:56:47 <tetha> I think the worst part about learning a language is finding a place to use it a lot
20:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird, but I wouldn't know my way around an English kitchen. I know there are stuff like "spatulas" but I can't map them to the Swedish words, nor what they actually are.
20:57:25 <jix_> tetha: that's true... i failed at learning french at school because i just didn't need it
20:57:36 * AnMaster idly wounders what "durkslag" is in English
20:57:38 <ehird> coo lah too kah lah too
20:57:48 <nescience> it's actually "spatulus" and/or "spatuli"
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20:57:56 <jix_> while english was no problem because i was reading english texts, or rather grepped throught them for information i needed before i even started learning english at school...
20:57:58 <ehird> say that 10 times fast
20:58:04 <oerjan> kulatukalato is probably a nice eodermdrome graph...
20:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what would you call this: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Durchschlag.jpg
20:58:20 <jix_> and then when i started hanging around on irc i wrote a lot of english too
20:58:36 <jix_> i'd say that there are many days where i write more english than i talk german...
20:58:36 <pikhq> ehird: Easy, compared to some Esperanto tonguetwisters.
20:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wikipedia thinks it is "colander" in English... Hm.
20:58:45 <AnMaster> Either you fail or wikipedia fails
20:58:47 <ais523> hmm... tuka forms a cycle, t also connects to o, u and a both also connect to l
20:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: oh right.
20:58:57 <ehird> pikhq: gimme a pronunciation file, I'm having troubles pronouncing it
20:59:03 <pikhq> Gah, just wrapping my tongue around 'scienco'.
20:59:08 <ehird> AnMaster: colander subset-of sieve
20:59:19 <ehird> A colander (also known as a Cullender) is a type of sieve, used in cooking for separating liquids and solids. It is much like a strainer. It is conventionally made of a light metal, such as aluminium or thinly rolled stainless steel, although it is not uncommon for it to be made of plastic. A colander is pierced with a pattern of small holes (or slots in plastic colanders) that let the liquid drain through, but retain the solids inside. Colanders often t
20:59:21 <ehird> ake the form of a large bowl with a built-in stand to allow water to drain out the bottom as well as the sides.
20:59:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ah. sieve translates to "såll" in Swedish iirc. And såll and durkslag are in Swedish both subsets of some unnamed superset.
21:00:12 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Såll
21:00:31 <AnMaster> interwiki translates sieve to "sil" in Swedish
21:00:36 <AnMaster> which I would claim is a third type
21:00:58 <ehird> pikhq: if you do make a pronunciation file, note that there's stress on the start of every syllable
21:01:06 <AnMaster> the picture there I would also call a sil
21:01:13 <ehird> well, not total stress, that'd just be overpowering
21:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I think this is a case of non-simple mappings between the languages
21:02:46 <FireFly> "both subsets of some unnamed superset."
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21:03:05 <oerjan> ais523: hm lots of redundancy. atotulukal.
21:03:09 <psygnisfive> anmaster: what is this that you're looking to do with linguisticy stuff?
21:03:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:03:18 <ehird> oerjan: words start with consonants and end with vowels, always
21:03:32 <ehird> also, a consonant is always followed by a vowel
21:03:55 <oerjan> ehird: latotuluka then
21:04:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: pronounce kulatukalato into an audial file, gimme. koo lah too kah lah too, a is long a. small stress on the start of every syllable, no other stress
21:04:35 <ehird> oerjan: lah toh too loo kah
21:04:50 <psygnisfive> ehird: "long a" is meaningless to me, and "stress on the start of every syllable" but no other stress is also meaningless
21:04:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: a as in father
21:05:02 <ehird> and fine, if it's meaningless ignore it :)
21:05:04 <psygnisfive> stress is a contrastive thing. you cannot stress every syllable because then there is no stress at all.
21:05:19 <ehird> i was just trying to express the concept :P
21:05:27 <ehird> the consonants are pronounced a little bit more strongly than the vowels
21:05:29 <psygnisfive> furthermore, stress is a property of syllables as a whole, not parts of syllables
21:05:31 <ehird> but there's no stress
21:05:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh, forget it
21:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what does this word mean
21:06:08 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing concrete, and I just made it up
21:06:18 <ehird> it sounds nice, and it's the compound of two words
21:06:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I bet Deewiant could manage that nicely
21:06:26 <psygnisfive> also, i presume when you write "koo lah too kah lah too" you mean the "oo"s to be as in the english word "too"
21:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks like .fi to me
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21:07:26 <ehird> psygnisfive: wait, no
21:07:32 <ehird> i must have said it wrong
21:07:49 <ehird> kulatukalato, koo lah too kah lah toh
21:08:19 <psygnisfive> and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping
21:08:37 <ehird> i'm trying to keep the pronunciation as simple as possible :P
21:08:49 <ehird> psygnisfive: beats me
21:09:20 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, .fi is an inspiration because it sounds so nice :)
21:09:34 <psygnisfive> this word is plausible for so many world languages its not funny
21:09:45 <psygnisfive> hawaiian, for instance, is i think uniformly CV
21:10:07 <jix_> hmm anyone ever tried to make a language (spoken, not programming) that has a minmal set of words?
21:10:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: so get to pronouncing it! :P
21:10:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you pronounce it?
21:10:57 <psygnisfive> oh, ehird, you want me to record myself saying it?
21:11:06 <pikhq> ehird: So, Esperanto phoneme-grapheme mapping.
21:11:13 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping <-- ?
21:11:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Of course, it's trivial :-P
21:11:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: yeah, 'cuz I keep tripping over it :)
21:11:55 <Deewiant> Meh, pronunciation is trivial as long as you can do the individual sounds
21:11:59 <psygnisfive> anmaster: english cannot pronounce /kulatukalato/ as [kulatukalato] because of the phonology of the language
21:12:03 <ehird> Deewiant: not fast enough
21:12:57 <ehird> Deewiant: you can pronounce each sound individually, but when you try and run them together into a word you trip, is my experience
21:13:05 <psygnisfive> in english, word-initial and stressed-syllable-initial stops like k and t become aspirated, and syllable-initial intervocalic /t/ turns into something roughly like an /r/
21:13:50 <psygnisfive> furthermore, english doesnt have pure [o], it has a diphthong, and english stress patterns disallow uniform stress on this word as well
21:14:12 <Deewiant> ehird: IME that only happens with tongue-twisty phrases
21:14:14 <ehird> psygnisfive: damn, english really hates this word
21:14:22 <psygnisfive> the most natural stress pattern for me is 'ku.la.tu.ka.,la.to
21:14:26 <ehird> you can pronounce anything
21:14:33 <psygnisfive> where ku has primary stress and la has secondary stress
21:14:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, IMO kulatukalato IS tongue-twisty
21:15:13 <psygnisfive> also, english often reduces unstressed vowels
21:16:08 <oerjan> ais523: i get it down to otukatula
21:16:16 <pikhq> Might just be because I've got a bit of experience with Japanese, though.
21:16:27 <psygnisfive> SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ]
21:16:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you mean AnMaster?
21:16:33 <oerjan> ais523: hm minimal eodermdroming is probably related to eulerian graphs...
21:16:38 <ais523> AnMaster: no he didn't
21:16:48 <ais523> oerjan: it's probably related to something
21:16:54 <AnMaster> I can't see what he is replying to
21:16:55 <psygnisfive> sorry, there'd be secondary stress on tu as well
21:16:56 <ais523> eulerian graphs seems likely
21:16:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: is this the only language in the world where you can just put the word in brackets to get the IPA? :P
21:17:07 <ais523> you need to figure out which edges to double
21:17:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: kulatukalato → [kulatukalato]
21:17:35 <ehird> the one kulatukalato is in
21:17:48 <oerjan> ais523: for my program it was easy because most of the graphs were trees, you just need to find the two farthest points
21:17:49 <psygnisfive> oh. well, it depends a lot on your font, actually
21:18:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "<psygnisfive> SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ]" <-- is that k rased to the power of h?
21:18:28 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: English pronunciation not only sounds but also looks ugly, I see
21:18:30 <pikhq> ehird: There's a language that is written soley in the subset of IPA that describes its phonemes.
21:18:52 <psygnisfive> Deewiant: your native language surely is similar.
21:18:53 <ehird> define normal k sound
21:18:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: finnish
21:19:04 <ehird> so gray area I'd imagine
21:19:11 <psygnisfive> anmaster, what do you mean normal k sound?
21:19:24 <pikhq> As does Toki pona...
21:19:34 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I haven't actually seen pretty much any of that extended IPA (I even forget what it's called) so I can't say
21:19:36 <psygnisfive> also ehird: what i mean is, the font im using has "a" as a simple lowercase "cursive" a
21:19:56 <psygnisfive> but the spanish a is denoted in ipa with the times-new-roman kind of a
21:20:18 <psygnisfive> my font doesnt distinguish them, nor do most people in writing, but ipa does
21:20:18 <Deewiant> There are code points for all the variants, you don't have to rely on fonts :-P
21:21:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: how's that recording going
21:21:10 <psygnisfive> deewiant: extended IPA? none of this is extended IPA.
21:21:43 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Isn't ʰ one of those things that's normally omitted
21:21:59 <ais523> hmm, it seems that bing is active already
21:22:02 <ais523> and live.com already redirects there
21:22:02 <psygnisfive> aspiration is a standard thing in many many world languages
21:22:32 <ehird> http://www.bing.com/search?q=how+is+babby+formed&go=&form=QBLH&filt=all
21:22:36 <ehird> it looks exactly like google.
21:22:38 <psygnisfive> english has aspiration in certain contexts, but not the kind that distinguishes sounds, korean and hindi have phonemic aspiration
21:22:52 <psygnisfive> so hindi and korean k^h is distinct from just k
21:23:51 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I'm thinking of broad vs. narrow transcription
21:24:14 <psygnisfive> well but then you're delving into the realm of phonology
21:24:17 <oerjan> i think in norwegian aspiration and voicing is so tight together you could almost choose which of them you consider primary...
21:24:30 <psygnisfive> broad transcriptions are broad on in that they're phonemically influenced
21:25:13 <pikhq> Things are only distinguished according to what speakers of the language distinguish, with broad transcriptions...
21:25:23 <psygnisfive> if i write [kæt] as a broad phonetic transcription of english "cat", you /understand/ that the k is aspirated, and im just being lazy.
21:26:18 <psygnisfive> its not a tight, phonetic transcription, there's influence from phonology in how you're transcribing it
21:26:24 <psygnisfive> which is fine, because in context you understand this
21:26:52 <psygnisfive> but when, for instance, you're doing research into the phonology of a language, especially an unfamiliar language, broad transcriptions are impossible
21:27:03 <psygnisfive> because you dont know what sounds the speakers distinguish and what they dont
21:27:41 <psygnisfive> so if you're not sufficiently close to the acoustics/articulation, you might transcribe two words as [kæt], and the speakers can hear a difference but you're not noting it down
21:28:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: RECORD IT AND I'LL KICK/UNKICK YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR WISHES
21:29:22 <psygnisfive> i have the recording, but im NOT GONNA SEND IT
21:30:24 <ehird> SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEND
21:32:06 <psygnisfive> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/kulatukalato.wav
21:33:19 <ehird> psygnisfive: in the strict pronunciation, the u is not oo enough
21:33:34 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: What's the star in u̟
21:33:45 <Deewiant> Or whatever that blob there is
21:34:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's ok, I can sacrifice strict IPAness because the u in your strict one sounds ugly :)
21:34:17 <ehird> i'd prefer [ʊu] I think
21:34:39 <psygnisfive> deewiant: the + under a symbol means "advanced tongue root", i believe
21:35:05 <Deewiant> Cheers; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_tongue_root it seems to be indeed
21:35:13 <ehird> LucasArts today announced two Monkey Island projects in the works for the Xbox 360, Wii and PC.
21:35:13 <ehird> Starting in just a few weeks, Telltale will première the Tales of Monkey Island; a game featuring a new epic storyline that will unfold in five monthly episodes on PC and WiiWare.
21:35:18 <ehird> THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE
21:35:31 <ehird> IT WAS MATHEMATICALLY IMPROVED THAT LUCASARTS WOULD NEVER MAKE A NEW MONKEY ISLAND GAME IN LIKE 2004
21:35:42 <ehird> joy to the world \o/
21:36:00 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I can't see the difference in my font :-P
21:36:07 <Deewiant> But you say that's a right-tack
21:36:46 <ehird> RON GILBERT IS INVOLVED
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21:37:01 <Deewiant> Anyway, that's what the English /u/ is IMO, not [u]
21:37:52 <psygnisfive> so u_+ (using sampa, sice .. fuck ipa for now :p)
21:38:08 <psygnisfive> yeah, no, its not really actually. maybe in some dialects, i dont know
21:38:25 <psygnisfive> but in standard english /u/ is [Uu] or [Uw]
21:39:22 <oerjan> \o| \o/ |o/ \o| \o/ |o/
21:39:33 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: This just came to mind from when I tried to argue that Finnish 'kuu' /ku:/ and English 'moon' /mu:n/ have completely different /u/ sounds.
21:39:34 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Fuck SAMPA, I've got functioning Unicode now.
21:39:54 <Deewiant> (Not much of an argument since almost nobody here knows what 'kuu' is supposed to sound like, but anyway.)
21:39:55 <psygnisfive> deewiant: some dialects of english, some british ones i think, use [Iu] or [Iw] for /u/!
21:40:12 <psygnisfive> pikhq: so do i, but in these fonts the diacritics are hard to see
21:40:31 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Þy font ſucks.
21:40:45 <psygnisfive> deewiant: sure they're different, english /u/ isnt [u]
21:40:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: can you rerecord with pure ipa but the u being more oo
21:41:01 <psygnisfive> pikhq: _I_ can see it, but im being a) lazy in typing, and b) kind to deewiant
21:41:22 <Deewiant> pikhq: Those both look pretty much identical here :-P
21:41:48 <pikhq> Deewiant: Hmm. Sure enough, they do. Wow.
21:41:51 <psygnisfive> which isnt "sucketh" at all but who cares :D
21:41:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: i can't say it
21:41:55 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bc bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo dc echo google gregor hello num ook plot rot13 slashes yodawg
21:41:55 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Quite, and I wanted to figure out what the correct narrow transcriptions would be and somewhat failed.
21:41:58 * pikhq should up the points on this some day
21:41:58 * oerjan wonders why the capital one looks _smaller_
21:42:04 <Deewiant> It helps that dialects matter.
21:43:04 <psygnisfive> because capital letters in english never have descenders or ascenders and so are fixed to line height
21:43:17 <psygnisfive> while lowercase eth has a descender and so is line-height + descender height
21:43:27 <Deewiant> Hmm, I should obtain a microphone.
21:43:39 <psygnisfive> deewiant: might i recommend a logitech usb microphone.
21:43:50 <GregorR-L> <Deewiant> Step one: Car-jack someone to get to Radio Shack ...
21:43:53 <Deewiant> But you also might, and you did.
21:44:19 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Radio shack? Never been to a country where it operates, I don't think :-P
21:44:38 <GregorR-L> I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cable.
21:44:41 <GregorR-L> I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cables.
21:44:59 <psygnisfive> but only the ones that have lots of electronic hardware and stuff you can meddle with
21:45:14 <psygnisfive> cables and housing and switches and all sorts of stuff
21:45:20 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: It appears that logitech makes quite a bit of microphones
21:45:40 <psygnisfive> GregorR-L: well, yes and no. all the radioshacks like that are really only like that in the very far back where hardly anyone ever goes.
21:45:48 <Deewiant> But I guess you were talking about the "USB Desktop Microphone", which'd set me back 22 €.
21:46:07 <Deewiant> Alternatively I could get a "Dialog 320" for 7 €.
21:46:32 <Deewiant> Not knowing anything about microphones really helps here.
21:46:46 <Deewiant> OTOH, if I find things out I'll probably end up wanting a 200 € one.
21:47:56 <ehird> Deewiant: you only need an expensive mic for audio work
21:47:59 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
21:48:02 <psygnisfive> and ive heard wonderful sound out of simple phones
21:48:02 <Deewiant> Yours looks expensive from where I'm standing :-P
21:48:18 <GregorR-L> You are reading "Return to Dark Castle", a choose-your-own adventure. You read about your character seeing a path to the dark castle! The book informs you that to run away, you must turn to page 63, and to enter the castle, you must turn to page 22.
21:48:18 <GregorR-L> To turn to page 63, turn to page 35. To turn to page 22, turn to page 3.
21:48:30 <Deewiant> Below that there are 9 mics, above it there are 2 before the prices start hitting 50 € and up
21:48:44 <Deewiant> And I don't know jack about the differences between any of these.
21:49:32 <ehird> lament! HOW IS YOUR BANANA
21:50:37 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.323
21:50:39 <pikhq> ehird: My spoon is too big.
21:50:49 <pikhq> My spoon is too big!
21:50:51 <ehird> pikhq: [insert whole of Rejected]
21:51:02 * pikhq needs to watch that again
21:51:06 * ehird tentatively preörders the new monkey island
21:51:16 <ehird> i feel like I am a child again! wait.
21:52:26 * pikhq creätes odd pronoünciätiöns by adding diäresis everywhere that he can.
21:52:55 <Deewiant> pikhq: s/pronounciation/pronunciation/
21:52:58 * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "non"
21:53:22 <pikhq> Deëwiänt: Shut up.
21:53:30 <pikhq> ehird: I know that. I just am having some fun.
21:54:25 <pikhq> That makes me smile. With gleë.
21:55:27 <psygnisfive> did you know that the reason english lacks diacritics is not because it has no use for them
21:55:37 <ehird> we know what the ¨ is for in english
21:55:38 <GregorR-L> psygnisfive: English does NOT lack diacritics.
21:55:40 <ehird> and it has it dammit
21:55:42 <Deewiant> Mostly because "gle" is somewhat unpronouncable
21:55:43 <psygnisfive> quite the contrary, english has over a dozen vowels, we could use some diacritics
21:55:55 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Dude, we're in the middle of a conversatiön aboüt English diäcritics.
21:56:05 <psygnisfive> i know, but you're wrong, english has no diacritics in standard usage :P
21:56:14 <GregorR-L> pikhq: How the hell do you pronounce "conversatee-on" P
21:56:23 <pikhq> They're in use. Just not the norm.
21:56:26 <psygnisfive> because noone really uses it in normal orthography
21:56:35 <psygnisfive> and even when people do, its precisely in that word
21:56:40 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Fine, then. Rôle?
21:56:54 <psygnisfive> now granted, english might borrow the diacritics from other languages
21:57:06 <GregorR-L> psygnisfive: None of the examples we've given are borrowed.
21:57:13 <psygnisfive> but i mean real proper diacritics, not just orthographic holdovers from borrowings.
21:57:18 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I gave one.
21:57:45 <psygnisfive> "A role (sometimes spelled rôle as in French) or a social role is a set of connected behaviors, rights and obligations as conceptualized by actors in a social situation. It is an expected behavior in a given individual social status and social position. It is vital to both functionalist and interactionist understandings of society."
21:58:34 <psygnisfive> the reason english lacks diacritics is because the printed orthography was designed back in the 1400s or whatever by a guy who was trained by the dutch printmakers
21:58:37 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: So yeah, if you want a mega-cheap microphone, the site I linked is goody :P
21:58:51 <pikhq> psygnisfive: For Middle English, no less.
21:59:02 <GregorR-L> psygnisfive: That's because Dutch is English pronounced with a funny accent.
21:59:06 <psygnisfive> and so we get out diacriticlessness from dutch diacriticlessness
21:59:28 <psygnisfive> west frisian has very english-like phonology
21:59:44 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Yeah, but again I have no idea if they're any good or not :-P
21:59:44 <psygnisfive> infact, west frisian is, aside from the daughter languages, the closest relative of english
21:59:59 <Deewiant> I can get random-ass mics here as well
22:00:02 <pikhq> So, other than Scots etc.
22:00:06 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: The reviews on that page are uncensored. If a product is crap, the reviews will SAY its crap.
22:00:15 <psygnisfive> english and the frisian languages form a language group called Anglo-Frisian
22:00:48 <oerjan> * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "noün" <-- try a peter sellers impression
22:01:11 * pikhq looks up West Frisian.
22:01:13 <psygnisfive> hey, ehird, are you able to locate dialects?
22:01:32 <psygnisfive> so if i gave you an audio sample you couldnt be like
22:01:33 <pikhq> Holy fuck. It's like English that went through a different vowel shift.
22:01:42 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: It's not so much 'is it crap' as it is 'how does it compare to non-random offerings'.
22:02:02 <psygnisfive> pikhq: its like english that didnt go though a vowel shift at all.
22:02:40 <psygnisfive> bread butter and green cheese is good english and good frees :D
22:03:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: well maybe cockney i could detect
22:03:08 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Nah, it seems to have had a few vowels shifted.
22:03:16 <pikhq> But a *few* vowels, not a Great Vowel Shift.
22:03:21 <psygnisfive> the dialect im curious about is charles stross's
22:03:53 <psygnisfive> stross pronounces /iɹ/ as /ɛ:/ which is very interesting
22:04:11 <psygnisfive> so "year" is like "yearn" minus the n for him
22:04:28 <psygnisfive> whereas for mean "year" is "ear" with a y at the front
22:04:46 <ais523> psygnisfive: the vowel in "year" is shorter than in "ear" for me
22:04:50 <ais523> but otherwise I pronounce much like you
22:05:47 <oerjan> or perhaps he, in your case
22:06:34 <psygnisfive> http://twitter.com/account/profile_image/levarburton?hreflang=en
22:06:42 <psygnisfive> is it just me or does levar burton look weird without the visor
22:13:42 * jix_ is writing a bfjoust debugger in javascript
22:13:58 <ais523> jix_: I was planning to do that, but never got around to it; so you'll likely do better than me
22:14:26 <jix_> i already have a working ruby prototype for this one
22:14:29 <jix_> but it lacks UI
22:14:36 <psygnisfive> i enjoy the fact that i can completely fuck up vowels, turning /Or\/ into /eIr\/ or something
22:14:46 <jix_> and then i noticed that with javascript it would be easier to do a nice UI
22:14:47 <ehird> ais523: an esolang-related anecdote about monkey island: one of the staff at the small company making it is on the esolang wiki
22:15:00 <psygnisfive> the wonders of phonology and dialect perception
22:15:28 <ehird> Slereah_: don't reacll
22:15:33 <psygnisfive> such a beautiful thing, the phonological mapping
22:17:02 <GregorR-L> ehird: Perhaps your FACE is wrong.
22:18:14 <EgoBot> 77 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>>+.--.<-.>+.+.--.<.>+.+.--.>-. [309]
22:25:07 <ehird> "Avast, ye scurvy sea-dogs and welcome to the motley crew of the good ship Pre-Order. I'll wager you've got booty on your mangy minds and we here at Telltale don't aim to disappoint you on that score. So lend me your pox-ridden ears and I'll tell you a tale of king's ransom in ill-begotten goods and services that be setting sail in your direction even as we speak!"
22:26:05 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
22:28:29 <psygnisfive> hrmph.i really want to experiment with a programming language that has type-driven parsing. :|
22:31:33 <jix_> hmm this would be so much easier if there wasn't (...)*N and a bit easier if there wasn't (...{...}...)%N
22:32:18 * pikhq finds Western Frysian really interesting still
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22:33:50 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Add an interpreter for Western Frysian to EgoBot. >_> :P
22:34:16 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I'm not about to do natural language parsing.
22:34:34 <ais523> what about adding an English language, which just asks in #IRP and waits for the answer?
22:34:47 <pikhq> Even something that understands Western Frisian would be stunning. :p
22:35:06 <psygnisfive> pikhq: why not? natural language parsing is fun :D
22:35:22 <pikhq> ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p
22:35:34 <psygnisfive> natural language syntax is such a pain in the ass, man
22:35:35 <nescience> unnatural language processing is easier though
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22:40:49 <pikhq> Okay, I found the single most evil Osmosian line.
22:41:10 <pikhq> "The osmosian font source is a hex string equal to ' ... Cue hundreds of lines of hex.
22:49:56 <GregorR-L> !addinterp swedish sh chef | xargs echo
22:49:56 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish installed.
22:50:05 <EgoBot> Noo I cun speek Svedeesh! Bork Bork Bork!
22:50:59 <EgoBot> Oh yeeh? Bork Bork Bork!
22:51:02 <GregorR-L> !addinterp godblessamerica sh dubya | xargs echo
22:51:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter godblessamerica installed.
22:51:12 <GregorR-L> !godblessamerica I can also speak American.
22:51:13 <EgoBot> I can also speak American.
22:51:20 <Slereah_> !swedish Oh yeah pinch my nipples
22:51:21 <EgoBot> Oh yeeh peench my neepples
22:53:32 <FireFly> !swedish En riktig svensk mening då?
22:53:33 <GregorR-L> !addinterp brit sh cockney | xargs echo
22:53:33 <EgoBot> En reektig sfensk meneeng då? Bork Bork Bork!
22:53:33 <EgoBot> Interpreter brit installed.
22:53:41 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option
22:53:58 <Slereah_> !swedish Suumezeeeng sffedeesh
22:53:58 <EgoBot> Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh
22:54:10 <Slereah_> !swedish Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh
22:54:11 <EgoBot> Suuuumezeeeng sffffffffedeesh
22:54:23 <FireFly> Good luck pronouncing that
22:56:11 <GregorR-L> !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now!
22:56:12 <EgoBot> Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork!
22:56:50 <fungot> Slereah_: it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :)
22:56:59 <Slereah_> !swedish it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :)
22:57:00 <EgoBot> it hes thuse-a veeerd ungles? vhets vrung veet yuoo! :)
22:57:17 <psygnisfive> somezeng sfedeesh is perfectly fine in english.
22:57:49 <fungot> FireFly: oh really? let's see your sources then, hate her or love her songs!! he sounds like they're attempting to), this movie
22:57:51 <psygnisfive> "sf" is a perfectly acceptable consonant cluster in english.
22:58:04 <GregorR-L> What are some good command-line chatbots?
22:58:11 <Slereah_> Fungot, say something that would be hilarious in swedish
23:00:50 <fungot> GregorR-L: first no? ::p a cool one in it
23:00:56 <ehird> 22:35 pikhq: ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p
23:03:06 <ehird> 22:56 GregorR-L: !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now!
23:03:06 <ehird> 22:56 EgoBot: Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork!
23:03:09 <ehird> that is so not british english
23:03:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: can commands interact with irc?
23:03:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: can they join another channel, say something, then look at responses
23:09:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:10:18 <tetha> aw, one cannot just download the kooky-bot
23:11:45 -!- coppro has joined.
23:15:33 <tetha> GregorR-L: kooky is a chatterbot based on markov chains. it's pretty hilarious with very large sets of data
23:15:52 <GregorR-L> I'm feeding the entire #esoteric log into MegaHAL.
23:16:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
23:16:14 <ehird> fungot already does it
23:16:14 <fungot> ehird: i'm glad to see a face in the nalts household) it has to do with anything?
23:16:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: and we've had dedicated markov bots before
23:16:59 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P
23:17:50 <pikhq> Yeäh, I can seë how that'd be hard to think of.
23:18:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: [[^irp Say "Hello".]] → EgoBot in #irp says [[Say "EGOBOT48572", then a space, followed by the results of the following: Say "Hello".]], waits for response with that unique ticket for, say, 30 minutes, then gives back the reply or timeout
23:18:41 <ehird> someone suggested basically that before
23:18:47 <ehird> (thus my question about commands interacting with IRC)
23:19:12 <ehird> It's an IRP interpreter!
23:20:09 <FireFly> An IRP interpreter, or dumb?
23:21:53 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P
23:21:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:22:06 <ehird> bf_txtgen is the only general command? :D
23:22:08 <FireFly> [00:21:31] <ehird> same thing really
23:22:16 <FireFly> If you were refering to the time
23:22:18 <GregorR-L> ehird: I couldn't think of anywhere to put it :P
23:22:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: language
23:22:44 <ehird> make a new section: utilities
23:22:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: Why not!
23:23:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: Write me three more utilities :P
23:23:12 <tetha> everything needs a utility-box for stuff that is too hard to put somewhere meaningful
23:23:34 <Slereah_> Why is #IRP full of people not present here
23:23:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: Add scramble/unscramble from fungot in there
23:23:36 <fungot> ehird: what s the name of the accident you're talking about there ex husbands.
23:23:42 <ehird> Slereah_: The uncultured swine.
23:25:19 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:21 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
23:25:25 <ehird> ^scramble scramble
23:25:28 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:30 <ehird> ^unscramble unscramble
23:25:34 <GregorR-L> !userinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:34 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
23:25:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: UTILITY
23:25:39 <GregorR-L> !addinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter scramble installed.
23:25:50 <GregorR-L> ehird: Such a waste of effort to do it that way :P
23:25:55 <tetha> add combinator logic on strings, such that CIMLHello World outputs some mess :)
23:25:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: Make userinterps categorizable
23:26:11 <EgoBot> Interpreter scramble deleted.
23:26:45 <GregorR-L> I'll add the ability to send input to userinterps.
23:26:50 <GregorR-L> (Those that have some kind of delimiter)
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23:31:35 <oerjan> GregorR-L: simply append the delimiter...
23:31:51 <GregorR-L> oerjan: No, that's not the difficult part.
23:32:07 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Figuring out how I want users to tell EgoBot that is the hard part.
23:32:24 <oerjan> actually that was what i was answering
23:32:34 <oerjan> simply append the delimiter
23:32:43 <ehird> that's the solution to everything
23:32:46 <ehird> simply append the delimiter
23:33:15 <GregorR-L> oerjan: !addinterp name language code
23:33:27 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Where does the delimiter go. Where does it /not/ go.
23:33:32 <oerjan> yes, and code ends with the delimiter
23:33:39 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Well that just makes no sense.
23:33:48 <FireFly> What is EgoBot written in?
23:33:59 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
23:34:08 <oerjan> for bf, for example, that means you just cat together the code and the input
23:34:25 <GregorR-L> oerjan: I'm talking about input /to/ userinterps.
23:34:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: is that paypal donation thing serious :P
23:34:40 <GregorR-L> ehird: If you feel like donating it is ;)
23:34:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: how about 1 cent
23:35:12 <coppro> just separate code and input with a null
23:35:25 <GregorR-L> coppro: What about languages where null are legit code?
23:35:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: you can't send a null over irc
23:35:54 <GregorR-L> ehird: You can send a null over http
23:36:10 <coppro> those languages suck :P
23:36:30 <GregorR-L> ehird, coppro: Also, it would suck because it would be nice to use an interpreter as-written, many of which use '!'
23:36:47 <oerjan> GregorR-L: hm oh right, for adding input to userinterp programs you want to add the programs themselves as nested userinterps
23:37:18 <oerjan> and when you do _that_, you just put the delimiter at the end of the code
23:37:46 <oerjan> and when running the nested userinterp, you just concatenate the code with the input
23:37:52 <jix_> GregorR-L: oh btw it would be nice if the bfjoust report file wouldn't be overwritten until the new one is complete
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23:38:07 <FireFly> I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ?
23:38:32 <GregorR-L> oerjan: The userinterp is sent as an /argument/ to the real interp, the input to that is sent as ... well, input. The delimiter is not on the userinterp's code, it's on its input
23:38:53 <GregorR-L> jix_: Bleh bleh bleh everybody's complained about that one, get on the bandwagon :P
23:39:04 <jix_> GregorR-L: haha didn't know
23:39:17 <oerjan> GregorR-L: nested userinterps need to use a different convention
23:42:03 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Let me illustrate with an example. I write a BF interpreter in BF. I save it as bf.bf. I run egobfi8 bf.bf. Putting a '!' at the end of bf.bf is totally useless, since the BF code is sent as input to egobfi8 bf.bf. However, what delimiter is necessary is a property of bf.bf. So it's necessary to provide with bf.bf the particular delimiter, but it actually goes as input.
23:42:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: What are you drying toa dd
23:43:43 <GregorR-L> ehird: Some way of specifying for userinterps what delimiter they use between code and input.
23:43:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: What? Why
23:44:03 <ehird> That makes no sense, I mean what?
23:44:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: So you can write userinterps in userinterps.
23:44:18 <ehird> ... and has anyone ever wanted to do this?
23:44:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: Just add a delimiter argument to addinterp
23:44:42 <GregorR-L> ehird: But it can't just be part of !addinterp, since not all userinterps have any such delimiter.
23:45:06 <ehird> GregorR-L: add a special value
23:45:11 <FireFly> [00:38:06] <FireFly> I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ?
23:45:25 <ehird> FireFly: !addinput lang separator code, you mean.
23:45:27 <FireFly> E.g. the separator could be defined for each new interpreter
23:45:35 <ehird> FireFly: !addinterp name lang separator code, you mean.
23:45:42 <ehird> !addinterp name2 name none blah
23:45:43 <EgoBot> Interpreter name does not exist!
23:46:00 <ehird> lang name 'separator' name
23:46:02 <ehird> lang name 'separator' name2
23:49:09 <ehird> write letter, write next letter, move to middle.
23:49:16 <ehird> reverse: take letter, take end letter, append to result.
23:49:50 <ehird> ^scramble 0123456789
23:50:06 <FireFly> Really, the unscramble one
23:50:30 <FireFly> I think it was the VG ("quite good") exercise on a test a previous class had
23:50:49 <ehird> I "invented" scramble a year or two ago.
23:50:56 <ehird> Unscramble just being its decoder.
23:51:04 <ehird> It's a very elegant method.
23:51:17 <ehird> Also, it repeats itself ... after length factorial iterations, I think. oerjan?
23:51:20 <ehird> Or was it more subtle than that
23:51:42 <FireFly> "1,2,3,4,5,6 blir 1,6,2,5,3,4 oberoende på ursprungsordningen"
23:51:52 <FireFly> Ignore the swedish, it should be pretty clear anyways
23:52:32 <FireFly> I'm not really nervous for my programming test tomorrow :D
23:52:36 <oerjan> some factor of length factorial
23:52:55 <oerjan> there was some sequence in the integer encyclopedia
23:53:37 <oerjan> the numbers fit, although it wasn't immediately obvious why the definition should...
23:53:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:54:03 <FireFly> Well, I just copied the example, with a more elaborate description above it
23:56:38 <FireFly> By the way, the highest grade exercise for the same test is: Create a class representing a dice, it's constructor taking the amount of sides as a parameter. Create a method to throw this dice a number of times, returning an int array of it's results."
23:56:52 <FireFly> That's it, and we have 100 minutes to do it
23:58:40 <pikhq> That's... Trivial.
23:59:17 <FireFly> I'm actually considering doing the exercise we get in both Java and some esolang, if it's as trivial as that
23:59:57 <GregorR-L> FireFly: And writing the esolang interpreter in Java, of course :P