00:00:05 <ehird> FireFly: wow that's trivial
00:00:13 <FireFly> Maybe, if I have the time for it, GregorR
00:01:09 <ehird> class Die; attr_accessor :sides; def initialize(sides); @sides = sides; end; def roll(n); (1..n).map {random n + 1}; end end
00:01:20 <Slereah_> Aw, it doesn't listen to itself
00:01:25 <FireFly> I wasn't sure, so I guess I should've written dic?e
00:02:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: add a compose command like lambdabot:
00:02:12 <ehird> !compose a b c d e
00:02:23 <ehird> you could combine like so:
00:02:31 <ehird> !compose a compose b compose c d input
00:02:39 <ehird> actually, name it .
00:02:45 <ehird> !. a . b . c d input
00:03:03 <ehird> and print the result of a only
00:03:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: So, yeah
00:14:34 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:14:56 <ehird> pikhq: ... 540p is HD? You're an HD person, so tell me.
00:15:06 <pikhq> ehird: 540p is ED.
00:15:15 <ehird> gamespot says it's HD :P
00:15:23 <pikhq> Gamespot is full of shit.
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00:27:19 <GregorR-L> ehird: I don't understand, what would compose do?
00:27:29 <GregorR-L> ehird, pikhq: Hulu says 480p is HD.
00:27:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: Allow me to explain.
00:27:47 <ehird> where c... means freeform text w/ spaces etc
00:27:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Which is bullshit.
00:27:51 <ehird> GregorR-L: Now, this is like the following:
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00:28:09 <ehird> would print result2
00:28:11 <pikhq> GregorR-L: If 480p is HD, then most DVDs are HD.
00:28:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: For example.
00:28:25 <ehird> !compose scramble bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
00:28:30 <ehird> Would be the same as !scramble Hello, world!
00:28:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: If you name compose ., it's more convenient to nest:
00:28:51 <ehird> !. scramble . underload bf ,[.,]!(Hello, world!)S
00:29:49 <GregorR-L> Not right now though, I has shuff to do.
00:31:09 <GregorR-L> !swedish That is good and I find it to be a genuinely good idea.
00:31:10 <EgoBot> Thet is guud und I feend it tu be-a a genooeenely guud idea. Bork Bork Bork!
00:31:21 <nescience> my brother's girlfriend has what appears to be a dead usb drive (computers aren't recognizing it when it's inserted); might any of you dudes have suggestions for data recovery?
00:32:09 <GregorR-L> nescience: Your brother is just too embarrassed to tell you he has ED, so he's trying to be coy. His "USB drive" is "dead".
00:43:25 <ehird> nescience: usb "flash" drive
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00:43:31 <ehird> it's the "drive" he uses for flashing people
00:47:32 <nescience> floppy drive, hard disk, etc. lols
00:47:43 <nescience> i referred her to a local data recovery place
00:47:58 <nescience> doesn't seem like there's anything I can do, other than try to take it apart and resolder connections
00:48:03 <nescience> which I'm sure they can do better than I can
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05:47:43 <GregorR-L> Exciting conversation going on here.
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06:17:10 <GregorR-L> We should look up names of people that haven't logged in to #esoteric for years and hunt them down :P
06:25:56 <myndzi> once upon a time on dalnet
06:26:11 <myndzi> i was in this channel with some dudes
06:26:17 <myndzi> i got sucked into mudding and neglected irc, when i came back they were gone
06:26:20 <myndzi> (moved to efnet i guess)
06:26:36 <myndzi> someone messaged me up with a quote from that time, asking if i was the same myndzi
06:28:42 <psygnisfive> that was back when ehird was, what, 5 years old, ehird? he was probably in here bitching about shit too.
06:29:09 <psygnisfive> blah blah blah monads blah blah blah bfjoust blah blah blah
06:29:14 <myndzi> my nick dropped in that time
06:29:22 <myndzi> and a time before that too
06:29:25 <myndzi> so it only goes back to 2000 :(
06:38:46 <calamari> GregorR-L: did you take the quiz to find out which circle of hell you belong to?
06:38:49 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: <myndzi> once upon a time on dalnet | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
06:40:00 <calamari> I think it's malebolge tho, right?
06:43:41 <calamari> http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=202157420226
06:45:58 <kerlo_> Wow, GregorR is on Facebook.
06:46:31 <kerlo_> I'm going to send him a friend salutation, and he's going to deny it because he's not going to know who I am.
06:46:45 <kerlo_> No, not a salutation. A solicity.
06:47:05 <kerlo_> No, not a solicity. A solicitude.
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07:01:26 <GregorR-L> calamari: I don't do FaceBook apps.
07:01:51 <lament> monads monads monads monads monads bfjoust monads
07:02:47 <GregorR-L> lament: Imperative imperative imperative imperative fyb imperative.
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07:14:36 <lament> lambda, the ultimate sex toy.
07:38:57 <psygnisfive> a monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad BFJOUST BFJOUST
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07:44:58 <AnMaster> atm I'm stuck below native resolution on an old backup gfx card
07:45:16 <GregorR-L> !swedish AnMaster: What happened to your primary card?
07:45:17 <EgoBot> UnMester: Vhet heppened tu yuoor preemery cerd? Bork Bork Bork!
07:45:18 <AnMaster> so be aware of that I'm rather irritated
07:46:14 <AnMaster> 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 isn't pretty. Trust me
07:46:44 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today.
07:47:02 * AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros.
07:47:33 <GregorR-L> !swedish AnMaster: Sounds expensive.
07:47:34 <EgoBot> UnMester: Suoonds ixpenseefe-a. Bork Bork Bork!
07:48:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I can't read that !swedish one
07:48:50 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it.
07:49:12 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=450+sek+in+USD
07:50:16 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, the card is an AGP based GeForce 7600 GS
07:51:04 <AnMaster> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 PRO] (rev 01)
07:51:21 <AnMaster> so low end it doesn't even have a fan!
07:51:29 <AnMaster> but just a rather small heatsink
07:52:32 <AnMaster> then I could get a high res part in the middle instead
07:52:38 <AnMaster> seen that on some laptops for some reason
07:53:09 <AnMaster> but can't find any such feature in the menus on this monitor
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09:30:20 <GregorR-L> ^^^ This is how Americans think that Swedish people talk.
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11:00:50 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, Americans are wrong?
11:01:37 <AnMaster> puzzlet, Swedish doesn't have ü...
11:02:39 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, and I can't figure out why it thinks "ball" would turn into "bell"... Rather it might turn into "båll"
11:03:08 <AnMaster> that English a sound there is somewhere between our a sound and our å sound.
11:03:40 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Go to youtube.com and type "Swedish Chef", and you will understand :P
11:03:55 <GregorR-L> Well, not understand, but at least see X-P
11:05:06 <AnMaster> and to me it sounds nothing like how a Swede bad at English would talk
11:05:55 <AnMaster> sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right.
11:05:59 <GregorR-L> I'm told that it's actually a hyper-extreme version of the accents of some areas of Minnesota, where Swedes immigrated and their accent later mixed and warped with the American one.
11:06:13 * AnMaster challenges GregorR-L to pronounce "sju"
11:06:22 <AnMaster> a sound not found in English. Or most other languages
11:07:02 <GregorR-L> Anyway, it's all silliness, and has no bearing on real Swedish people, who to be honest in my experience are taught English from such a young age that they sound mostly like some mix of American and British English accents when speaking English :P
11:07:40 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Is "sju" just an "s" followed by "ju"? Or is there some sound we don't have that you can't spell?
11:08:20 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative
11:09:17 <GregorR-L> "Its place of articulation is disputed (see below)." Wow
11:09:37 <GregorR-L> So even the name "Voiceless palatal-velar fricative" isn't sufficient for me to reproduce it :P
11:09:51 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I never needed a name to pronounce it!
11:09:56 <puzzlet> i know, i just wanted to see how it handles
11:10:15 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Well, not having any other reference, and knowing in general what all those words mean, at least that gives me a hint.
11:10:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, which is "I give up"? ;P
11:12:45 <GregorR-L> Oh you crazy Swedes and your unique fricatives.
11:12:50 <GregorR-L> At least we Americans have our schwer.
11:13:28 <AnMaster> aspell doesn't think that word exists
11:13:31 <GregorR-L> The 'r' sound in "blur" when pronounced with an American accent.
11:13:36 <AnMaster> (but then it is set to en-GB so :P)
11:14:09 <GregorR-L> Uhhhh, no? In the south they /don't/ have the schwer :P
11:14:16 <GregorR-L> Well, yes they do, but less often.
11:14:49 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, Western movie? Texas sound. They mess up lots of stuff
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11:15:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, btw about r sound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#.2Fr.2F-realizations_and_the_retroflexes
11:15:33 <GregorR-L> I like that you're describing an accent as "messing up lots of stuff" :P
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11:15:46 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, compared to Oxford English yeah :P
11:16:15 <GregorR-L> What with Oxford being in England :P
11:16:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I'm surprised there isn't any "New Oxford" :P
11:17:05 <GregorR-L> Probably somewhere, but not of any significance.
11:17:12 <GregorR-L> I don't see schwer there. Schwer is a vowel, btw.
11:17:42 <GregorR-L> Schwa is the non-r-colored variant, yes.
11:18:00 <GregorR-L> Or, more accurately, schwer is the r-colored variant of schwa :P
11:18:13 <AnMaster> btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk
11:18:22 <AnMaster> before I get a headache from it
11:19:21 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, it is VGA too. Doesn't help.
11:19:50 <GregorR-L> I was making an affirmative sound :P
11:20:09 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, but with the nvidia card, and at native res, vga works just fine
11:20:14 <AnMaster> since that is all the monitor has
11:20:52 <GregorR-L> Analog does not deserve the pariah status it's got.
11:21:30 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, it is worse on this card for some reason
11:23:10 <jix> vga on crt is fine
11:23:17 <jix> vga on tft is often really bad
11:26:15 <AnMaster> would need conversion in the monitor
11:26:37 <jix> as would vga on tft
11:26:49 <AnMaster> yes, but that is rather common
11:26:59 <AnMaster> while dvi on crt... I never heard of it
11:27:08 <AnMaster> jix, anyway vga on tft usually works fine
11:27:21 <jix> AnMaster: well i guess with better tfts it's ok
11:27:35 <AnMaster> jix, "Acer AL2017" is what I have
11:27:48 <AnMaster> and here it depends very much on the graphic card in use
11:27:52 <Asztal> messing with the VGA settings on my monitor produces some awesome results
11:28:16 <AnMaster> awesome as in good or awesome as in spectacular?
11:29:23 <AnMaster> Asztal, with spectacular I meant "spectacular like holding a magnet close to a CRT" kind of spectacular
11:30:24 <Asztal> it's kind of a shimmering horizontal sine wave, if I look at the right bitmap
11:30:36 <Asztal> (alternating black/white in both directions)
11:31:33 <Asztal> it also does with things on both VGA and DVI if I fill some of the white pixels with black, they look green and blue instead
11:31:42 <AnMaster> Asztal, I always had crystal clear results after one click on auto button displaying a black/white checker pattern with each square the size of 1 pixel
11:32:01 <AnMaster> and then I never need to rerun auto unless I change the graphic card as I did now
11:32:58 <Asztal> It's rarely perfect with my monitor, unfortunately, there's usually a blue-green-red gradient
11:34:42 <AnMaster> Asztal, are you sure you are using a shielded cable btw?
11:35:11 <AnMaster> (also I never had such an issue with my previous Syncmaster 171B, which also was vga-only..)
11:37:01 <Asztal> maybe mine is a syncnovice
11:37:55 <AnMaster> Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding
11:37:59 <Asztal> it's an unshielded cable, but I thought that mostly prevented interference, or possibly ghosting?
11:38:10 <AnMaster> I'm not suggesting "monstercable" style here. Just good shielded cable
11:38:34 <AnMaster> Asztal, strange are the ways of electromagnetism...
12:08:26 <GregorR-L> GregorR: Gee, you're not logged in.
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12:54:34 <AnMaster> I never heard of "PESOIX" before
12:54:47 <AnMaster> and I don't think PSOX is *widely* used at least
12:56:20 <lifthrasiir> PESOIX is the one mentioned in this page: http://jonripley.com/easel/
12:57:54 <Slereah> How do I put two graphics on the same level in LaTeX?
12:58:48 <AnMaster> I have done that... Hm *tries to remember where and/or how*
13:11:24 <lifthrasiir> anyway i have designed this one: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe it is certainly duplicated effort, though. :S
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13:59:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, this would be mostly for BF I guess?
13:59:52 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, because handling null bytes will be a PTIA in many esolangs.
13:59:54 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i don't think so... well, with an exception of funge-98.
14:01:37 <AnMaster> PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself
14:02:36 <lifthrasiir> could you give me actual example? i cannot imagine such one.
14:02:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, also, doesn't null byte collide with how EOF is handled? That is: , returns 0 on EOF
14:02:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about underload? Though that one doesn't have input...
14:03:17 <AnMaster> I think it would be hard in Taxi too
14:03:22 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: byte-oriented I/O should sufficient, i think.
14:04:01 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, which several of esolangs lack. Some have printable char ones, some have whole string ones. and some lack IO at all of course
14:04:35 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about this: Split the thing in two parts
14:04:54 <AnMaster> the frontend could be replaced to fit the type of IO used
14:05:04 <AnMaster> it basically just defines encoding scheme
14:05:14 <AnMaster> the backend implements the actual functions and calls
14:05:27 <AnMaster> so frontend should be called "protocol" probably
14:06:01 <AnMaster> then if language can't output null bytes you can use a different protocol or such
14:06:02 <lifthrasiir> that is what i'm considering now, but i have no idea about I/O based on printable character only.
14:06:43 <lifthrasiir> and that'd be quite hard to find the good protocol for them.
14:06:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I remember seeing some esolang that you couldn't print chars not in the source in, and where chars in source had to be printable (with exception of newline)
14:07:33 <lifthrasiir> (for example, how about invocation sequence? PLEASEENABLEEXEVERSION0? :p)
14:08:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that would probably have to be defined by the protocol yes
14:08:23 <AnMaster> protocol would need to define:
14:08:54 <AnMaster> encoding/decoding of function calls and their parameters
14:09:45 <lifthrasiir> and how to retrieve the return value, of course.
14:10:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I guess that always using STDIO would be a good idea
14:10:47 <AnMaster> for talking to process in general?
14:11:05 <AnMaster> I mean. Most langs that can talk with anything in any way have stdio
14:11:15 <AnMaster> those that doesn't have stdio tends to lack, uh tcp and such too
14:11:28 <AnMaster> it would however be funny with an esolang with tcp but no stdio support
14:11:40 <lifthrasiir> and I/O thingy are for doing arbitrary I/O with _only_ stdio.
14:11:52 <lifthrasiir> (i.e. remapping stdin/stdout to arbitrary source/sink)
14:12:22 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yeah. Anyway parameters could have to be encoded as ASCII or whatever.
14:13:07 <AnMaster> The open mode is ORed value of the following flags: <-- hm I guess that is ok if protocol part could read it as ascii and then convert to integer
14:13:40 <AnMaster> the trick is leaving enough freedom for the the protocol module without making it too freeform and complex
14:13:47 <AnMaster> which I agree isn't easy to pull off
14:15:12 <lifthrasiir> maybe i have to encode byte as integer followed by one space, like Funge "." command.
14:26:24 <lifthrasiir> BeholdMyGlory: is #<$+1?=[4]<$+1?=[3] valid migol code?
14:28:14 <jix> i extended the view of an array of 120000 items in firebug... :/
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14:31:03 <lifthrasiir> well, that was invalid, thus general statement is form of TARGET{<[OP]VALUE}[?OP VALUE].
14:31:19 <lifthrasiir> (guess what? i'm trying to make migol interpreter.)
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15:42:59 <pikhq> So, AMD has 6 core chips now.
15:43:24 <pikhq> ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p
15:53:21 <BeholdMyGlory> Ok, just be prepared that the specification is going to change a bit in the near future, regarding I/O
15:54:58 <FireFly> I don't really remember, I'll have to wait 'till MigoMipo gets online
15:56:59 <FireFly> IIRC hex numbering will be introduced (with x prefix, should be valid everywhere where decimal numbers are), and the syntax was something in the lines of &(number1)/(number2)
15:57:40 <FireFly> Where (number1) is a number related to a command (input, output), and (number2) is a pointer to an array of memory slots which the command may use
15:58:14 <FireFly> E.g. printing and supplying &id/3 (I don't remember the particular ID), would print the char at cell 3
15:58:36 <FireFly> Also, I believe output will be manually flushed, although I'm not 100% certain
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16:01:20 <lifthrasiir> 1<48,2<60,3<49,4<44,...,71<62,72<91,73<91,74<48,75<93,76<93,0<1,[0]>-,'<>,[[0]]>-,',>,0<$+1,#<$-5?<>[[0]],0<1,[[0]]>,0<$+1,#<$-2?<>[[0]]
16:01:54 <lifthrasiir> (i recall the feeling of programming in kipple...)
16:02:41 <FireFly> Heh, I was trying to create a quine in Migol, but never succeeded
16:02:52 <FireFly> But then I don't really have much experience of quines
16:03:28 <BeholdMyGlory> is that really a working quine? :O add that to the wiki!
16:04:39 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: well, many quines have general structure; storing the data, printing that data twice in the different representation.
16:05:08 <lifthrasiir> in this example, 1<48,...76<93 sets up the memory to contain the following code.
16:05:57 <lifthrasiir> and the following code prints the memory once in form of "addr<char,", and prints again as literal character in that time
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16:11:39 <pikhq> Yeah, quines are rather simple. Fun, though.
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16:39:29 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: any reason why you put the Migol examples on the talk page rather than in the main article?
16:39:46 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: i'm not sure the interpreter is finished.
16:40:23 <lifthrasiir> at least migol09.jar works, but the specification is quite vague in some area, like EOF handling.
16:40:37 * oerjan will see if the formatting trick he used for the /// quine works for the Migol quine too
16:40:50 <lifthrasiir> i've also surprised when newline follows null character
16:46:38 <oerjan> putting it in <code><nowiki></nowiki></code> doesn't give a good line wrap with the /// one
16:47:10 * oerjan wonders if this is very browser dependent
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16:48:22 <FireFly> Ah, sorry for the incoherent URLs to the Migol interpreter, by the way
16:48:34 <FireFly> I need to structure my stuff better
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16:51:52 <MigoMipo> My idea is that, for a "complete" platform, 3 things are needed: 1. Algorithms, 2.Data structures and 3. I/O.
16:52:06 <MigoMipo> 1 and 2 can be done in Migol. Sort of.
16:52:39 <MigoMipo> When I/O is done, it should be possibly to write, for example, a HTTP server in Migol.
16:53:09 <lifthrasiir> by the way, advanced I/O is missing in many, possibly most esolangs; they only provide standard input and output.
16:53:35 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: Yes, but advanced I/O makes it more interesting.
16:53:49 <MigoMipo> The fact that most esolangs lack it makes it even cooler.
16:54:11 <FireFly> I still believe we should keep a lighter version
16:54:39 <FireFly> But I still find the idea with heavier I/O interesting, so it could be a separate version?
16:54:56 <MigoMipo> Sure, I could have a Migol Standard Console Edition and a Migol Bloated Enterprise Edition.
16:56:01 <pikhq> Obviously all esolangs should have an FFI.
16:56:10 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: first thing i would suggest is replacing "value>" output statement with "[@]<value". it seems more natural.
16:56:22 <pikhq> Which reminds me: screw PSOX. C FFI via stdio. :p
16:56:27 <lifthrasiir> and by natural extension, you can select the I/O target with "@<value"! :
16:59:39 <jix> hmm defend9 seems to be a bit too large for my bf joust debugger
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17:01:01 <oerjan> jix: are you also not managing to avoid expanding ()* and ({})%
17:01:03 <jix> hmm i need to make some of this stuff lazy evaluating then i think...
17:01:14 <oerjan> seems to be a common affliction around here
17:01:24 <jix> oerjan: i could but then evaluation would be slow
17:01:43 <oerjan> why in the world would it be slow
17:01:45 <jix> because i'd have to keep a stack instead of linear instruction pointer
17:01:57 <jix> a stack of loop iteration counts
17:02:12 <jix> which can't be (without real continuations) the native stack
17:03:17 <oerjan> because you are doing two programs simultaneously...
17:04:03 <oerjan> i don't know about such things. is a manually maintained stack really that much slower?
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17:11:25 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: ah, also is that newline is followed by null character intended?
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17:20:27 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: I implemented the interpreter in Java, and it reads input directly from System.in.
17:20:40 <MigoMipo> Unfortunately, newline characters are included.
17:21:04 <lifthrasiir> hmm, you mean you intended "foobar\0baz\0" or so?
17:21:07 <MigoMipo> The interpreter adds the null characters when the input buffern is empty.
17:22:07 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: Yup, I thought it would make sense to end input with 0.
17:22:32 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: various, but doesn't use null character at all.
17:22:56 <lifthrasiir> (and some interpreter sets the current cell zero if EOF is encountered)
17:23:26 <MigoMipo> I want Migol to be able to handle binary input too, but it probably don't.
17:29:22 <pikhq> Your internal parser must have some interesting BNF.
17:31:25 <MigoMipo> The parsing is made using entirely regular expressions.
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17:31:49 <pikhq> Well, that explains why your internal parser is broken.
17:32:32 <pikhq> I'm *damned* sure that English doesn't have a regular grammar.
17:33:01 <pikhq> Hell, it might be an unrestricted grammar.
17:33:11 <pikhq> Meaning that it needs a Turing machine to parse.
17:33:16 <MigoMipo> Aaha, you talked about English.
17:36:39 <lament> i thought a grammar was some kind of high-level specification for a *fixed* language
17:36:49 <lament> how can English have a grammar?
17:37:00 <MigoMipo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar
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18:06:46 <kerlo_> English has a stochastic regular grammar.
18:07:40 <kerlo_> You can tell it's not general context free by the fact that "that that that that that that that that that that that that is is is is is is is is is is is is" is not a valid sentence.
18:07:58 <pikhq> kerlo_: No, it certainly is not a regular grammar.
18:08:11 <pikhq> A hint: the regular grammars are a subset of the context free grammars.
18:08:48 <kerlo_> What makes you think it certainly is not?
18:09:15 <pikhq> If it's not a context free grammar, it certainly can't be a regular grammar.
18:09:29 <kerlo_> Maybe I should have said something else.
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18:09:50 <pikhq> Now you're just being confusing.
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18:09:55 <kerlo_> Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x).
18:10:21 <pikhq> Do you happen to got by BadAnalogyGuy on /.?
18:10:41 <kerlo_> That's not a bad analogy, it's just incomprehensible.
18:11:04 <pikhq> So it's a *terrible* analogy. Got it.
18:11:23 <kerlo_> What I meant by that is that English is like a regular grammar except it can keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence.
18:12:00 <kerlo_> Which is a subset of the context-free grammars, probably, but a superset of the regular grammars.
18:12:29 <pikhq> Which means it's not at all a regular grammar. Or context-free.
18:12:53 <pikhq> Perhaps a context-sensitive grammar.
18:12:54 <kerlo_> Being able to keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence makes it not context-free?
18:13:13 <pikhq> That implies context. ;)
18:13:23 <kerlo_> I was under the impression that context-free grammars had stacks.
18:14:08 <kerlo_> Like the grammar <foo> ::= "(" <foo> ")" | "[" <foo> "]" | epsilon. That obviously has a stack.
18:14:42 <pikhq> Ah, yes. English isn't context-free, but not for that reason...
18:15:10 <kerlo_> Indeed, English will always have its irregularities.
18:15:18 <jix> kerlo_: but you can have a stack that is linear with the length i think....
18:15:20 <kerlo_> And incontextfreeities.
18:15:24 <jix> (in english)
18:15:34 <kerlo_> jix: not if you want people to understand you.
18:16:36 <jix> kerlo_: but that is a stupid restriction
18:16:52 <kerlo_> People being able to understand you? No, it's not. :-P
18:17:00 <jix> as you can't formalize it in any sane way i'd say
18:17:12 <kerlo_> I don't think you can formalize English in any sane way.
18:17:32 <pikhq> Yes you can. Just grab a Turing machine.
18:17:37 <pikhq> Oh, and go insane.
18:17:55 <kerlo_> Making theories about it, on the other hand, is easy for both English and understanding of English.
18:18:00 * kerlo_ rings a Fibonacci bell.
18:18:10 <kerlo_> (For loose definitions of "easy".)
18:18:49 * kerlo_ ponders English phrases with large stacks.
18:19:15 <tetha> what about garden path sentences?
18:19:25 * kerlo_ ponders garden path sentences.
18:19:43 <tetha> like "the old man the boat"
18:22:23 <kerlo_> "The old man..." has multiple parsings, I guess, and you have to keep track of them.
18:23:08 * kerlo_ opens up lynx and searches for garden path sentences.
18:23:30 <kerlo_> "Welcome to Xubuntu"? I had no idea I was running that.
18:24:04 <tetha> yep, the major problem is that english appears to be outside of DCFL
18:26:11 <tetha> deterministic context free languages
18:26:11 * kerlo_ opens Wikipedia in Lynx and sees lots of "v o d o e".
18:26:19 <tetha> can be parsed with a deterministic stack automaton
18:26:24 <pikhq> tetha: I expanded it after hitting enter.
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18:28:46 <kerlo_> Anyway, the only stack-expanding word that comes to mind is the 'that' of 'I want that you come'.
18:28:59 * kerlo_ immediately realizes he's using 's instead of "s.
18:30:36 <tetha> and this opens the doors for mayhem like "i want that you want that i want that you want that i come"
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18:36:31 <kerlo_> That's not nearly as stack-expanding as it could be.
18:36:43 <kerlo_> It can be treated linearly.
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18:59:31 <pikhq> kerlo_: N-buffalo sentences, though...
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19:00:23 <kerlo_> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo. I think.
19:00:34 <kerlo_> If that's not right, it's because I picked a non-linear way to expand.
19:00:52 <lament> If that's not right, it's because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
19:01:51 <kerlo_> And now for a definition! "Linear" might mean "either left-branching or right-branching", as opposed to both-ways-branching.
19:02:14 <kerlo_> Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N?
19:02:30 <kerlo_> Regular expressions are totally linear.
19:03:17 <Asztal> so, regular expressions can parse halflife2?
19:03:52 <kerlo_> Don't be ridiculous. Exponential decay is exponential, not linear.
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19:19:23 <kerlo_> Whoa. IPA in lynx displays as SAMPA.
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19:25:30 <kerlo_> And the missing part of that sentence is "on Wikipedia".
19:25:55 <kerlo_> (Congratulations to all who guessed correctly.)
19:27:12 <kerlo_> I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall."
19:35:54 <kerlo_> "The saw caught the law."
19:36:12 <kerlo_> Apparently it's O in Kirshenbaum.
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20:17:12 <oerjan> <kerlo_> Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N?
20:17:29 <oerjan> can you define the N-buffalo sentences for us?
20:22:36 <nescience> you mean "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo."?
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20:23:26 <nescience> {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]} bully {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]}
20:23:51 <pikhq> oerjan: In English, a sentence composed of N instances of "buffalo" is a valid sentence for any value of N greater than 0.
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20:24:25 <pikhq> Those are N-buffalo sentences.
20:24:42 <oerjan> it doesn't tell _how_ you make them, especially with correct capitalization
20:24:42 <pikhq> Then why did you ask for a definition?
20:25:13 <pikhq> Tad bit more complex to do with correct capitalisation.
20:25:15 <oerjan> pikhq: i need a context-free grammar first if i'm supposed to tell if it's regular...
20:29:46 <kerlo_> Okay. In "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo", the production rules are...
20:29:59 <kerlo_> <sentence> ::= <noun phrase> "buffalo" <noun phrase>
20:30:10 <kerlo_> <noun phrase> ::= "Buffalo" <noun phrase>
20:30:19 <jix_> hmmm my bfjoust debugger starts to get usable :)
20:30:24 <kerlo_> <noun phrase> ::= <noun phrase> <noun phrase> "buffalo"
20:30:34 <kerlo_> <noun phrase> ::= "buffalo"
20:31:02 <pikhq> Doesn't cover the 1-buffalo sentence.
20:31:07 <kerlo_> Of course, this leads to silly regexes like /(Buffalo )* buffalo buffalo./
20:31:27 <kerlo_> Buffalo Buffalo buffalo are just Buffalo buffalo.
20:31:40 <oerjan> kerlo_: i don't feel a Buffalo prefix can be repeated
20:31:42 <jix_> can't you adjust the rules for that?
20:32:09 <pikhq> kerlo_: Buffalo Buffalo buffalo == Bully buffalo from buffalo.
20:32:12 <oerjan> i suggest <noun phrase> ::= "Buffalo buffalo" instead
20:32:17 <pikhq> s/buffalo./Buffalo./
20:32:48 <jix_> couldn't you do
20:32:48 <jix_> <noun phrase> ::= "Buffalo" <restricted noun phrase>
20:32:48 <jix_> <noun phrase> ::= <restricted noun phrase>
20:33:14 <jix_> and define restriced noun phrase accordingly?
20:33:38 <kerlo_> <s> ::= <np> "buffalo> <np>
20:33:51 <kerlo_> <np> ::= "Buffalo" <rnp>
20:34:02 <kerlo_> <np> ::= <np> <np> "buffalo"
20:34:20 <kerlo_> <rnp> ::= <rnp> <np> "buffalo"
20:34:41 <oerjan> er, why the second last one?
20:35:39 <oerjan> i don't see why rnp needs to contain anything but "buffalo"
20:37:02 <oerjan> <np> becomes the same strings anyway
20:37:40 <oerjan> <s> ::= <np> "buffalo" <np>
20:38:05 <oerjan> <np> ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo" | <np> <np> "buffalo"
20:39:52 <oerjan> the last production of <np> is the only thing that might make it non-regular
20:41:27 <oerjan> hm <np> cannot produce an even number of lower-case buffaloes
20:43:11 <pikhq> And all this neglects that a n-buffalo sentence is initially capitalised.
20:43:47 <oerjan> that's not going to change regularity though, i think
20:44:00 <pikhq> Nah. Just changes the specifics.
20:47:26 <jix_> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[+]]]]+>[+[+[+[-]]]]-)*40
20:47:34 <EgoBot> Score for jix__wiggle1: 29.5
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20:48:18 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:48:26 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 32.9
20:51:37 <oerjan> <np> ::= <rnp> (<np> "buffalo")*, <rnp> ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo"
20:54:21 <oerjan> it's like parenthesis matching if you could change any ( to a )
20:54:29 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*5(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:54:37 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 14.3
20:54:46 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*2(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:54:54 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 24.3
20:55:00 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:55:08 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 29.5
20:56:47 <GregorR-L> Wiggle waggle shake and <something>
21:00:54 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]+)*15
21:01:03 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 25.1
21:02:45 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*15"
21:02:53 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 20.1
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21:04:17 <oerjan> kerlo_: (Buffalo buffalo)^n from the start cannot contain the end of any non-trivial noun phrase. it will take about n/2 "buffalo" just to end those, which cannot be encoded in finite state. Thus not regular. I think.
21:04:55 <oerjan> maybe add one more Buffalo first to take care of capitalization.
21:05:01 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]-)*15
21:05:10 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.4
21:06:51 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*15
21:07:00 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 26.7
21:08:05 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*10
21:08:13 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 34.0
21:09:05 <tetha> oerjan: as soon as you show that you need to remember a number of character which depends on the input somehow, you are done, as it is not possible in finite state, so n or n/2 or something like that is only a technical detail
21:10:08 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 >+>+>->->->(>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*9
21:10:16 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 38.9
21:13:54 <jix> oh what i'm doing is basically what shade is doing...
21:13:58 <jix> only that shade is doing it better...
21:14:10 <jix> and yeah my debugger is usefull by now
21:14:28 <jix> but will have to polish it a bit before releasing
21:14:45 <jix> and maybe do something that allows monster programs to be "compiled" faster
21:16:54 <jix> no wait i think i'm doing it better... now
21:17:08 <jix> except i don't use enough steps
21:19:46 <tetha> mm, genetic algorithms + bf joust
21:23:18 <oerjan> there still remains the question of whether those buffaloes can be herded into a deterministic PDA, or even just an unambiguous grammar...
21:23:59 <tetha> yacc-magicians can answer that better than I can
21:24:41 <oerjan> yaccs, buffaloes, what's the difference
21:27:12 <oerjan> i think this language has no non-trivial forbidden prefix
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21:33:57 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 >-(>+)*4>(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-)*2(])*8+(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8-)*3>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8-)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]-(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*7)*2]+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-])*2(])*7(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2+>([+)*5
21:34:03 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0
21:34:55 <oerjan> ([+)*5 is not particularly useful at the end
21:35:08 <jix> ah it got cut then
21:36:39 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d44ba4d2
21:36:47 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 24.1
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21:38:15 <Deewiant> Did something happen to the scoring again?
21:38:25 <jix> seems strange to me
21:38:31 <jix> but otoh i'm changing quite a lot in my program with each try
21:38:49 <jix> the 0.0 was irc cutting of my program
21:39:51 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d1fe166c4
21:39:59 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 36.0
21:40:15 <oerjan> unbalanced ()* looks hard to read...
21:41:37 * oerjan sees a ([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8 in there
21:41:57 <jix> well but the interpreter accepts it
21:42:01 <jix> and it's program generated anyway
21:42:05 <oerjan> that's not even balanced
21:42:16 <jix> as i said it was cut by irc
21:42:29 <oerjan> jix: only because GregorR-L couldn't manage to do the efficient ({}) without expanding
21:42:35 <jix> oerjan: i know
21:42:53 <jix> and the only reason i did this at all was to get the code short enough for irc
21:43:30 <oerjan> i thought ({})% was shorter than splitting it up...
21:43:44 <jix> well i don't have ({})% in my code
21:43:54 <jix> i just did some repeated string => ()* replacement
21:44:03 <jix> the code itself is completely unrolled
21:44:12 <oerjan> (a{b}c)%n vs. (a)*nb(c)*n
21:46:33 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/aWqgSqGndb/txt
21:46:44 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 39.6
21:48:49 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb
21:48:56 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0
21:49:02 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb/txt
21:49:11 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 42.1
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21:58:04 <kerlo_> oerjan: I was looking for a good subset.
21:59:23 <oerjan> kerlo_: well then Buffalo (buffalo)* should do nicely...
21:59:54 <oerjan> there was that even/odd thing
22:00:18 <kerlo_> Buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo.
22:00:42 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aBPObTXOlb/txt
22:00:52 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.4
22:01:01 <oerjan> the capitalization neutralizes the even/odd distinction
22:01:33 <oerjan> the odd ones don't really use the city
22:01:41 <oerjan> the even ones only once, first
22:03:21 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJLB4WVu9/txt
22:03:26 <oerjan> any instance of buffalo as a noun can be replaced by three copies
22:03:30 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.8
22:03:31 <ais523> what's the shortest Buffalo sentence that's ambiguous?
22:03:38 <oerjan> (the first two still being nouns)
22:04:44 <ais523> the five sentence has ambiguous associativity
22:05:17 <oerjan> the four one only if we ignore capitalization
22:08:02 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt
22:08:11 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 45.2
22:10:34 <ais523> ooh, Firefox 3 just overtook IE6
22:10:53 <jix> hmmm how do defend6 and 7 work?
22:11:09 <ais523> jix: tripwire, followed by attempting to trap the opponent in a [+] or [-] loop
22:11:09 <psygnisfive> the 2*Buffalo sentence is ambiguous in english.
22:11:26 <jix> ais523: and how does it win?
22:11:30 <ais523> 7 uses decoys, apart from that there's no difference
22:11:38 <ais523> and it wins by leaving the opponent stuck in [+] or [-] on its flag
22:11:45 -!- adu has quit.
22:11:50 <oerjan> psygnisfive: we were using kerlo's grammar
22:11:55 <ais523> alternating between defending the flag (preventing it being 0 twice in a row), and attacking
22:12:04 <ais523> so it gradually zeroes all possible enemy flags while defending its own
22:12:08 <pikhq> psygnisfive: As is the 1-Buffalo sentence.
22:12:23 <ais523> pikhq: is that even a sentence?
22:12:27 <psygnisfive> the 1-buffalo sentence isnt ambiguous unles you accept fragments.
22:12:31 <ais523> you'd need an exclamation mark, at least
22:13:06 <psygnisfive> but theres no other interpretation of it as a sentence.
22:13:25 <pikhq> As in the city or the animal.
22:13:41 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJlGw7KYJ/txt
22:13:49 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.6
22:14:09 <ais523> jix: go back to the old one, and use a different name for test programs
22:14:21 <jix> it is a test program
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22:14:40 <jix> until know i got better score with each edit or each edit sequence of two
22:14:54 <ais523> jix: a program that comes fourth is not a test program, even if it was meant to be
22:15:11 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt
22:15:20 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 40.5
22:15:27 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:15:48 <jix> but isn't it bad to fill the hill with test programs?
22:15:52 <ais523> also, it's interesting to see how speedy19 has dropped off and speedy0 hasn't; they were neck and neck (although against different programs) last I looked
22:15:52 <jix> that just happen to be above average?
22:15:58 <pikhq> psygnisfive: It's a minor sentence and an exclamation. ;)
22:16:07 <ais523> and they won't fill the hill if they aren't good
22:16:09 <pikhq> (or I'm just wrong)
22:16:12 <ais523> and if they are, they don't count as test programs
22:16:33 <jix> ais523: how should i know before ^^ it's not that i test them locally
22:16:43 <psygnisfive> there is no such thing as a "minor sentence" anyway.
22:16:57 <jix> maybe i should do that...
22:17:37 * pikhq wonders if psygnisfive has never heard someone exclaim at seeing something with a single word.
22:17:53 <Deewiant> ais523: So did the scoring change again or did the programs just change so much as to re-mess-up the rankings?
22:17:53 <ais523> jix: well, one possibility upon submitting a test program and it doing very well is to clear it from the hill with <, then submitting an identical program with a non-test name
22:17:53 <psygnisfive> i have seen people exclaim things, pikhq, but that doesnt make it a sentence
22:17:59 <ais523> Deewiant: just program change
22:18:02 <ais523> the hill is rather dynamic
22:18:10 * psygnisfive wonders if pikhq realizes he's arguing with a linguist
22:18:21 <Deewiant> I'm somewhat surprised how much monorail dropped
22:18:27 <pikhq> I think your definition of a sentence sucks.
22:18:41 * oerjan wonders if psygnisfive realizes he's arguing with a pikhq
22:19:04 <psygnisfive> oerjan: good point. never argue with amateurs who don't realize they're amateurs. :(
22:19:26 <pikhq> Oh, I realise I'm an amateur. I just like being contrary.
22:19:46 * oerjan didn't know he was making a point
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22:20:15 <psygnisfive> now pikhq, see, if you WEREN'T an amateur, you would be capable of saying something like, oh "well sure, its an NP, or it LOOKS that way, but really its a sentence that had the NP evacuated from the VP and then had the rest of the content elided!"
22:21:21 <jix> hmmm now i have to add a nontrappable []
22:22:17 <jix> does the interpreter support (foo(bar{baz}fn)%10ord)*10 ?
22:22:30 <jix> or can't i put ({})% inside ()*
22:22:50 * pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist
22:22:59 <ais523> jix: putting ({})% inside ()* ought to work
22:23:04 <psygnisfive> actually it doesnt work in the mind of everyone
22:23:04 <pikhq> (bloody prescriptionist. :p)
22:23:28 <psygnisfive> but noone accepts "buffalo" as anything other than a bare NP in the other interpretation
22:23:48 <jix> ais523: hrrm trapping someone in [+] or [-] is unfair ;)
22:23:49 <psygnisfive> furthermore, you cant be prescriptivist about the structural analyses you make because they're analyses, not observations.
22:24:01 <psygnisfive> thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you.
22:24:03 <pikhq> Funny, parses to me as "(Look,) bufallo!"
22:24:07 <jix> ais523: (not serious... hence the smiley)
22:24:14 <ais523> defend9 can trap people in about 12 different sorts of loops; but it isn't doing as well for some reason
22:24:18 <jix> ais523: it's just that as soon as you're trapped... it's to late
22:24:19 <ais523> maybe because it's having trouble detecting
22:24:34 <pikhq> "(Look,) buffalo!"
22:24:36 <psygnisfive> pikhq: thats the interpretation of the utterance, yes
22:24:59 <psygnisfive> there is this thing called pragmatics, and the maxim of relevance, which allows people to calculate an enormous amount of stuff
22:25:52 <pikhq> Okay, so you're saying it's not a sentence, but our brains are absurdly flexible with it's handling of language, so it manages to (usually) work, basically.
22:25:53 <psygnisfive> and in this particular case, a bare NP + maxim of relevance can be interpreted (CONTEXTUALLY) as intending to communicate the existence of the NP.
22:26:09 <psygnisfive> pikhq: not absurdly flexible, just sufficiently flexible.
22:26:43 <psygnisfive> you can observe this by considering the enormous range of contexts in which just "Buffalo" is acceptable as a response to, say, a question
22:27:05 <psygnisfive> where the interpretation of the bare NP, as an utterance, is NOT an assertion of the existence of a buffalo
22:27:16 <psygnisfive> "What should we have for dinner?" "Buffalo wings."
22:27:23 <psygnisfive> "Where should we go on vacation?" "Buffalo"
22:27:26 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ahoQwZcHz/txt
22:27:31 <pikhq> I think I'm just going to hate natural languages for making less sense than programming languages and shaddup.
22:27:39 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.1
22:28:03 <psygnisfive> pikhq: if you learned some linguistics you'd realize that they make a whole lot of sense, actually.
22:28:17 <psygnisfive> but this stuff about bare NPs and such isnt so much a linguistic fact as a human fact
22:28:40 <psygnisfive> because its just part of a broader cognitive capacity that we have for analyzing peoples actions
22:28:41 <pikhq> Screw you and your knowing-stuff. :p
22:29:21 <psygnisfive> natural language, by itself, is quite elegant and beautiful.
22:30:39 <psygnisfive> also, pikhq, learn about modern syntax. its cool.
22:31:15 <pikhq> Guess I've got something to read after I finish Dr. McNinja, then.
22:32:39 <psygnisfive> the part on structuralism and formal languages you probably already understand so you could probably skip it
22:33:30 <pikhq> Alright. Thanks for the suggestion of something to read that'll make me sound *slightly* less ignorant about this.
22:34:01 <psygnisfive> well, the series im writing is really just about contemporary syntax frameworks
22:34:20 <psygnisfive> it doesnt discuss detailed issues, nor does it really look at ling methodology
22:34:57 <jix> haha wiggle2 is like 5 times as large as the next smaller one...
22:35:13 <jix> and wiggle3 is almost 8 times as large as wiggle2
22:36:22 <ais523> are you sure that can't be abbreviated?
22:36:36 <jix> not that efficiently i guess
22:36:40 <jix> a) i'm randomizing stuff
22:37:09 <jix> b) i have no point b right now
22:38:08 <jix> at least the recursive pattern isn't in a way it would be obvious for me on how to efficiently and syntactic legally write this abbreviated
22:38:24 <ais523> jix: was your question about defend6/7 because you wanted to find a way to beat them?
22:38:41 <ais523> (I notice lots of [+] and [-] in your program)
22:38:45 <oerjan> by next week the top-of-the-hill BF Joust programs should need to be sentient.
22:39:02 <ais523> actually, sentient BF Joust might be interesting
22:39:20 <ais523> on your turn, you can do + - < > or look at whether the current tape element is 0
22:39:33 <jix> that would be awesomeish
22:39:43 <ais523> could be rather boring, I imagine
22:40:33 <jix> people play rock paper scissors...
22:40:58 <jix> hmmm most of the code of wiggle2 will never be executed
22:41:26 <jix> but i try to minimize the amount of times i have to go through a long run of ]]]
22:42:48 <oerjan> hm you could need rather _huge_ programs if you try to avoid ]]
22:43:05 <oerjan> replacing loops by nesting ifs...
22:43:19 <jix> basically that's what i'm doing
22:43:42 <jix> the outer loops really are just ifs... because the closing condition will always be false
22:44:20 <oerjan> a variation without that problem would be to say that ] takes no time, but jumps to _before_ the corresponding [
22:44:32 <ais523> jix: "always" is generally a bad thing to think in BF Joust
22:44:42 <ais523> after the first 10 or so cycles, anything could happen
22:44:47 <jix> ais523: yeah
22:45:19 <jix> so maybe i'm better off checking it twice before doing the shortcut recursion stuff
22:45:20 <oerjan> hm wait that may not work
22:45:35 <jix> oerjan: won't
22:45:58 <jix> oerjan: basically ] should skip to the next non ] instruction in case of 0 for me
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22:53:40 <ais523> TBH, I think allowing BF Joust to have a conditional goto instruction wouldn't change the game at all, but would make programs a lot shorter
23:02:08 -!- ehird has left (?).
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23:10:36 <ehird_> 06:46 AnMaster: GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today.
23:10:36 <ehird_> 06:47 AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros.
23:10:40 <ehird_> Replacing a computer fan is hard?
23:10:52 <ehird_> 06:48 AnMaster: GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it.
23:10:54 <ehird_> that's ridiculously expensive
23:11:08 <ehird_> 06:51 AnMaster: so low end it doesn't even have a fan!
23:11:11 <ehird_> that's no indicator of low end
23:11:37 <ehird_> 10:05 AnMaster: sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right.
23:11:40 <ehird_> it's ... not meant to.
23:12:14 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aXjcWArLU/txt
23:12:23 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.0
23:12:49 <jix> haha wiggle3 now wins against the defends
23:12:54 -!- coppro has joined.
23:12:54 <jix> but looses otherwise
23:12:58 <ehird_> 10:18 AnMaster: btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk
23:12:58 <ehird_> 10:18 AnMaster: before I get a headache from it
23:13:00 <ehird_> 10:18 GregorR-L: Wow, that's extreme.
23:13:44 <ehird_> 10:37 AnMaster: Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding
23:13:46 <jix> hmmm idea on how to break defend...
23:13:49 <ehird_> snaaaaaaaaaake oiiiiiiiiiiiiil
23:13:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:14:13 <ehird_> 13:01 AnMaster: PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself
23:14:49 <ehird_> 14:42 pikhq: So, AMD has 6 core chips now.
23:14:49 <ehird_> 14:43 pikhq: ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p
23:14:50 <ehird_> Nehalem-XE = 8 cores on one chip, iirc, and mobos w/ 4 sockets.
23:14:52 <ehird_> Beat that, bitchnizzle.
23:16:25 <ehird_> 17:09 kerlo_: Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x).
23:17:17 <ehird_> 18:27 kerlo_: I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall."
23:17:24 <ehird_> autistic law? i'm scared
23:19:47 <ehird_> 21:22 pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist
23:19:53 * ehird_ goes on calling brainfuck not a programming language because etc
23:20:15 <ehird_> 21:24 psygnisfive: thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you.
23:20:18 <ehird_> you like it that much?
23:20:46 <oerjan> er, what's that smiley?
23:21:07 <oerjan> which part is the mouth?
23:21:39 <ais523> it's not a smiley, it's a hole body
23:22:19 <ehird_> and read the responses to my logreading
23:22:22 <ehird_> lament: yes, pain in the altruist.
23:22:28 <ehird_> 23:21 psygnisfive: your moms a hole body.
23:22:48 <jix> !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-]+]+]+)*20
23:22:55 <EgoBot> Score for jix_antidefend1: 15.6
23:23:19 <EgoBot> Score for lament_bye: 0.0
23:23:36 <ehird_> ↑ this basically means, well why no what 's the
23:24:48 <ehird_> psygnisfive: this is a sentence: the
23:24:51 * ehird_ watches psygnisfive squirm
23:25:00 <jix> !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-.-.-.]+]+]+)*20
23:25:07 <EgoBot> Score for jix_antidefend1: 17.8
23:25:11 <ehird_> 15:02:28 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@208.78.103.223) joined #esoteric
23:25:11 <ehird_> 15:02:32 --- nick: ehird -> ehird_
23:25:13 <psygnisfive> you dared disagree with a linguist is what happened!
23:25:15 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
23:25:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: actually i agree, "buffalo" isn't a sentence
23:25:39 <ehird> lament: well there's probably a place called the
23:25:42 <ehird> but unfortunately no such verb
23:25:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: well, yeah
23:25:49 <ehird> but apart from that
23:26:00 <lament> linguist, but not very cunning
23:26:07 <ehird> T________________________________T
23:26:23 <jix> with defend6 and defend7 there is no way to not fall into the trap
23:26:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: cunninglinguist‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽
23:26:45 <psygnisfive> well, cunning if its a transboy, but thats a different sort of thing.
23:26:46 <ehird> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA
23:27:16 <jix> haha antidefend brought slowrush onto the top
23:27:33 <psygnisfive> ##compling has a bot that will say "Chomsky is cunnilingual" if you say "syntax"
23:27:59 <lament> do they all speak lojban in ##compling?
23:29:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: no it doesn't
23:29:32 <psygnisfive> just below the threshold of "fucking kick this bot"
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23:35:26 <psygnisfive> i have a giant reeses peanut butter cup. :T
23:35:42 <ehird> well give it back to Reese or he'll go fe fi fo fum
23:37:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: well without the 'a'
23:37:16 <ehird> the a makes it pretty unambiguous
23:38:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: well, sure
23:38:15 <ehird> but that's very stretched
23:38:21 <oerjan> incidentally "rise" is a norwegian word for giant
23:38:24 <ehird> *just like your butt etc*
23:38:58 <ehird> thanks for that; we care.
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23:53:06 <jix> !bfjoust foobar >>+>+>+[[<]>[+++[-]+>]<]
23:53:30 <EgoBot> Score for jix_foobar: 3.7
23:54:17 <ehird> [[Me: I want to see the one we always called the “Hell Paper” at Queen’s — the mandatory fourth-year paper. You know the one, where we prove P = NP?
23:54:17 <ehird> New Girl: I did that! I proved P = NP! I placed near the top of the class, and the professor used my paper as an example!]]
23:54:22 <ehird> http://www.joeydevilla.com/2003/04/07/what-happened-to-me-and-the-new-girl-or-the-girl-who-cried-webmaster/
23:56:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Read the whole thing
23:59:42 <oerjan> ehird: you realize you just spoiled it?
23:59:49 <ais523> a nice way to tell if someone's bullshitting
23:59:59 <ais523> but of course, we all know the answer (P = 1 or N = 0)