00:17:45 <ais523> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cupsys/+bug/255161
00:17:58 <ais523> (it's funny reading that thread, seeing all the guesses people made as to what was going wrong)
00:19:38 <ehird> why does cups even use file(1)?
00:23:08 <ais523> and that is almost certainly the real WTF
00:25:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> <AnMaster> oerjan: I just checked my full Oxford English Dictionary collection. Gullible is in there. <-- from when is that
00:26:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't remember having said that. I might have. Would have been like at least half a year ago.
00:26:50 <oerjan> ehird: as for cups using file, it may be deciding how to print it
00:27:13 <ehird> AnMaster: *snigger*
00:27:32 <Asztal> GregorR: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_adjectives perhaps
00:27:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm half asleep already. I understand jokes even less than usually now
00:27:46 <oerjan> converting plain text files to postscript, e.g.
00:27:48 <ehird> teehehehheheeeeeeeee
00:28:19 <AnMaster> <ais523> apparently, it's confusing Erlang files with PostScript files created on Tuesdays <-- uh... For file(1) or what?
00:28:47 <ehird> You are intractable.
00:28:50 <ais523> AnMaster: read a couple of lines up
00:28:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: he was merely explaining what you would have said if you had been present
00:29:26 <AnMaster> I have never seen an Erlang JAM file in fact
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00:31:46 <AnMaster> Since ages Erlang uses the BEAM VM. JAM VM is very very very old
00:32:06 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no, no, it's hall-eluj-ah
00:38:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: go to bed, your brain is clearly not working :D
00:39:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, that isn't normal English (insert plain English joke here)
00:39:29 <oerjan> i couldn't find a way to make it normal english
00:39:41 <oerjan> it kept slipping, slipping... out of reach
00:40:06 * oerjan will not guarantee his brain is working either
00:40:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, tell me when you are sane instead.
00:40:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: ask me again in a couple years
00:40:35 <AnMaster> tell me when you are less insane and more parsable?
00:40:52 <oerjan> i parsable perfectly fines
00:41:45 <AnMaster> now my compiler no longer outputs most of the unused macros if they aren't used
00:42:12 <oerjan> but it does output the unused macros if they are used, i hope
00:42:33 <AnMaster> no, because then they are used macros being used
00:43:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, no no, that is another pass.
00:43:17 <ais523> haha: http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=gullible&action=history
00:43:19 <AnMaster> it looks around shiftily while doing a gnome sort
00:43:21 * oerjan rotates around himself
00:43:22 <ais523> it's now on permanent semiprotection
00:43:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the controversy over that word?...
00:44:57 <ehird> ais523: don't tell him
00:44:58 <AnMaster> ais523, just lots of random spam?
00:45:00 <ehird> this is great continuous fun
00:45:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's a fake word that someone invented
00:45:10 <ehird> oerjan: i said DON'T TELL HIM
00:45:26 <oerjan> ehird: you are so mean sometimes
00:45:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, aren't all words originally
00:46:13 <oerjan> no, most words develop from older words through regular sound changes
00:46:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, somehow the first older sound must have got started somehow
00:46:57 <psygnisfive> a lot of words also have onomatopoeic qualities
00:47:01 <oerjan> well those were obviously onomatopo..
00:47:30 <AnMaster> and there are lots of invented words. Like lots of terms in computer context.
00:47:41 <AnMaster> some were based on previous terms used for other stuff yes
00:47:52 <oerjan> but that is only because the original onomatopoeia have been obscured through sound changes
00:47:53 <psygnisfive> most of modern english was invented by shakespeare as nonce words!
00:48:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the word "house"
00:48:19 <AnMaster> I can't think of a way that could be onomatopoeic, nor it's base.
00:48:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's obviously a very old word
00:48:33 <AnMaster> yes it is clearly related to the Swedish "hus"
00:48:50 <AnMaster> probably similiar in other Germanic languages
00:48:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure. But somewhere it must have started
00:49:05 <AnMaster> I'm just asking about the trace
00:49:08 <oerjan> swedish and english probably were not distinct 1500 years ago
00:49:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, Swedish/Nordic and English did influence each other certainly
00:49:42 <oerjan> so not related to romance "casa" then?
00:49:59 <ehird> haus probably derives from a shape name;
00:50:04 <ehird> hut type shape... trapezoid
00:50:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Try "common ancestor".
00:50:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes they do have that. But they also influenced each other after that
00:50:39 <pikhq> Oh, right. Old Norse influences.
00:50:46 <pikhq> Thus things like Beowulf.
00:50:52 <psygnisfive> old english and old norse were mutually intelligible.
00:51:03 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Knew that.
00:51:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, Vikings for example. And the other way too. These days we tend to copy English term instead
00:51:28 <oerjan> "the Late Latin word casa (cottage, small humble dwelling, hut)
00:51:32 <AnMaster> "tape" has turned into "tejp", and that is rather recent iirc.
00:51:37 <oerjan> seems it's also unknown...
00:51:40 <pikhq> After all, they had kinda split off not too long ago in the days of Old English...
00:52:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: tejp is a modern borrowing from english, surely
00:53:13 <AnMaster> Heck I'm going for ehird here: >_<
00:53:47 <AnMaster> btw about "gullible": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gullible
00:54:03 <oerjan> it's the rock/paper/scissors of annoying responses
00:55:23 <oerjan> i mean if you respond to me like ehird does to you...
00:55:56 <oerjan> psygnisfive: you should get those eyes checked by
00:56:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, next time I should try to say "dammit" before you too
00:57:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: ais523 suggested something like that *dammit*
00:57:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, you must not make me laugh out loud, people are sleeping in the next room.
00:57:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, and learn to type faster ;P
00:58:01 * ais523 catches everyone relevant in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/
00:58:08 <oerjan> i seem to have fallen out of my touch typing
00:58:10 * ais523 puts them back down again out of sympathy
00:58:26 * oerjan bursts off his butterfly wings
00:58:30 <AnMaster> I notice I can touch type on irc
00:58:40 <AnMaster> where I have to type random keys
00:58:50 <AnMaster> I fail horribly at touch typing
00:58:54 <AnMaster> I have to look to see where the key is
00:59:24 <oerjan> i don't need to look at the keys but i no longer have optimal hand positions
00:59:57 <AnMaster> nescience, it is irritating if it is dark and you need to reach up to turn on the lamp to see where you want to go
01:00:00 <pikhq> Pretty normal, but not for programmers.
01:00:23 <nescience> one thing i learned about typing when i made the switch to dvorak is
01:00:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, well I can touch type C too
01:00:23 <nescience> there seem to be a few different "stages" of typing
01:00:23 <pikhq> ... That's just weird.
01:00:26 <nescience> the first was just having to look of course
01:00:31 <nescience> but after that it was a letter at a time
01:00:36 <nescience> i.e. i would think of the letter, recall where it was, and type it
01:00:47 <AnMaster> nescience, I passed that ages ago
01:01:09 <nescience> that would get me up to around 40wpm i think
01:01:15 <AnMaster> I touch type English, Swedish, C, Erlang, Bash and possible a few other langs
01:01:15 <nescience> but after that comes what i think of as "phrase at a time" typing
01:01:30 <nescience> where you aren't thinking of the individual letters
01:01:46 <nescience> and, especially if you know more than one keyboard layout, individual letter recall starts to get difficult
01:01:55 <AnMaster> nescience, I haven't looked at the keyboard for about 5 minutes or so I think. When I last used the mouse.
01:01:58 <nescience> i can type qwerty or dvorak at speeds up to 100wpm i guess
01:02:07 <nescience> but i can't stop and immediately recall individual keys
01:02:25 <nescience> i probably could when i only knew qwerty
01:02:41 <nescience> but my the letter recall is out of conscious thought now, i think
01:02:53 <nescience> so i can be in "dvorak mode" or "qwerty mode" and my fingers pretty much go where they need to without me directing them
01:03:06 <AnMaster> I moved my hands off the keyboard. And did some other stuff, I didn't look on keyboard again when I started typing just now
01:03:11 <AnMaster> even though I moved the chair too
01:03:35 <AnMaster> but then I probably know this keyboard shape very well. Having used it so much that there isn't a lot of text left on the keys any more
01:03:52 <AnMaster> Some of the less used ones still have faded letters on it
01:03:57 <nescience> environmental association plays a big role too
01:04:04 <nescience> i cannot for the life of me touch type qwerty on my home keyboard
01:04:12 <AnMaster> but especially s and e seems worn out.
01:04:35 <nescience> if i rearranged the keys into qwerty i could probably keep myself in qwerty mode by glancing at the keyboard to refresh myself
01:04:38 <AnMaster> nescience, I can't type at all on anything smaller than full size PC keyboard
01:04:42 <nescience> but i don't want to, because of the very thing you are talking about:
01:04:44 <AnMaster> I plan getting a split keyboard
01:04:53 <AnMaster> since that would reduce the size issue
01:05:12 <nescience> i'd probably use a split keyboard if i could get one that i could rearrange the keycaps on without them getting all lumpy
01:05:19 <nescience> and if they made one with the model m keyswitches
01:06:08 <AnMaster> nescience, well I'm large. In all possible meanings of large. Large hands. Tall (189.6 cm). Wide shoulders. I find full sized PC keyboard small.
01:07:09 <AnMaster> finding large enough mice is too.
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01:19:55 <immibis> Does anyone know of an email service where you can make sufficiently complex email filters to program with them?
01:21:18 <AnMaster> immibis, your own mail server?
01:21:37 <AnMaster> since sendmail's config is in m4 iirc I guess it could be done for sendmail at least
01:22:00 <AnMaster> but I guess you meant web mail or similiar
01:26:13 <AnMaster> kmix (KDE frontend for alsamixer) fails. It can't handle more than one sound card...
01:26:23 <AnMaster> something I'm actually trying to use now
01:27:28 <oerjan> maybe it doesn't work on minutes divisible by 13
01:27:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe it doesn't handle if you just modprobed the kernel module for the other sound card :P
01:30:21 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to tell anything else which sound card to use...
01:30:23 <oerjan> immibis: is the name really Rub_y_ On Conveyor Belts?
01:31:01 <immibis> its a really, really, really to the power of a googalplex, bad pun...
01:31:15 <AnMaster> immibis, I know what Ruby on Rails i
01:31:27 <AnMaster> just no clue why oerjan is making a joke about that right now
01:31:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: the wiki page title says RubE but the text says RubY
01:32:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, Sure I know what RUBE is
01:32:29 <AnMaster> but not why it was mentioned right now
01:32:33 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts
01:32:49 <oerjan> because immibis just edited it
01:33:18 <AnMaster> immibis, I would like a copy of the interpreter that runs on POSIX
01:33:19 <immibis> and technically i edited it 5-10 minutes ago
01:33:29 <immibis> because i made it for windows
01:33:38 <AnMaster> immibis, why did you write it in unportable C then :P
01:33:52 <immibis> it uses winapi to update the window with the current state of the program
01:33:58 <immibis> that's the only unportable thing i think
01:34:13 <AnMaster> immibis, is that split into a separate frontend module or such?
01:34:22 <AnMaster> so it would be easy to replace with some other C code
01:36:00 <immibis> oh and Sleep also from winapi
01:36:26 <AnMaster> couldn't you just replace that with nanosleep() or usleep() or similiar?
01:36:41 <immibis> but then i wouldn't be able to compile it because i'm on windows :P
01:37:12 <AnMaster> immibis, cygwin tends to be easier to get working than WINE IME.
01:37:57 <AnMaster> immibis, plus of course you can. Windows *does* implement POSIX. Assuming you install the right stuff
01:38:49 <immibis> http://filebin.ca/wfdjbs/myesolang.cpp
01:39:07 <immibis> i made it ages ago so sorry if it isn't very good code
01:39:35 <AnMaster> immibis, anyway how does this program differ from normal RUBE?
01:39:52 <AnMaster> I can't be arsed to compare instruction for instruction
01:41:15 <immibis> idk, apart from the symbols used. It was based on an online game called Rubicon (http://kevan.org/rubicon/)
01:42:33 <immibis> also it is turing complete because you can put any bf program in the "control program" (using o for output) and have the main program just copy its input (control program's output) to its output (final output)
01:42:39 <ais523> Rubicon was based on RUBE
01:42:43 <ais523> so I imagine they'd be similar
01:53:38 <immibis> How is the score returned by Egobot's !bfjoust calculated?
01:54:50 <AnMaster> it seems impossible to make ffplay use anything but the first sound card for output
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02:08:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: If it actually uses SDL for audio output (the man page just says "FFmpeg libraries and the SDL library") you should be able to use something like "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa AUDIODEV=hw:1 ffplay ..." to make it use that alsa device.
02:11:08 <fizzie> At least here "AUDIODEF=iec958 ffplay ..." seems to make it use the digital output. And "AUDIODEV=blergh ffplay ..." => "ALSA lib pcm.c:2211:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM blergh". So something like that should work for card-select-o-trification.
02:13:43 <AnMaster> hm AUDIODEV=default:CARD=V8237 works
02:14:05 <AnMaster> (I'm trying to use the onboard one to be able to use the front panel audio connectors for some stuff
02:14:11 <pikhq> s/s/ſ/g s/ſ /s /g s/ſſ/ſs/g s/ſf/sf/g
02:14:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, good thing I still have that script loaded.
02:14:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: That seems like really dumb sed to you, doesn't it?
02:15:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know what happened though due to having it mark the lines as "[GT]" (meaning GregorR Tainted).
02:16:29 <EgoBot> sh sed 's/þ/th/g ; s/Þ/Th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ; s/æ/ae/g ; s/Æ/Ae/g ; s/œ/oe/g ; s/Œ/Oe/g'
02:18:11 <AnMaster> why would one sound card give less low freq sounds
02:18:48 <AnMaster> and these are high quality headphones.
02:21:27 <AnMaster> so this is pointless I have to use the hard to reach one at the back of the computer
02:26:04 <pikhq> One sound card, I assume, has a terrible DAC?
02:26:11 <pikhq> Or it has a bass/treble setting.
02:30:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is that SDL_* thing documented
02:31:04 <AnMaster> it worked. But I would like to know the source of that
02:31:15 <AnMaster> I haven't been able to find it in SDL docs
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02:52:23 <immibis> has anyone devised a reliable speed test for brainfuck interpreters?
03:15:51 <psygnisfive> well, the idea was for a esolang built to look vaguely like a genome.
03:16:08 <psygnisfive> i say vaguely because it doesnt look really all that much like a genome at all
03:18:32 <psygnisfive> the simplest version has a collection of "genes", essentially triples (ON, OFF, SIGNAL)
03:19:01 <psygnisfive> each ON, OFF, and SIGNAL is a set of numbers
03:19:22 <psygnisfive> there is also a global signal environment which is a set of numbers
03:19:53 <psygnisfive> a gene turns "on" when its ON set is a subset of the signal environment, at which point the gene's SIGNAL set is added to the signal environment
03:20:20 <psygnisfive> a gene turns "off" when its OFF set is a subset of the signal environment, at which point its signals are removed from the signal environment.
03:20:47 <psygnisfive> a signal is in the signal environment if any gene with that signal is on, and is not in the environment if no gene with that signal is on
03:23:04 <myndzi> the first program written should output "All your base are belong to us!"
03:23:35 <psygnisfive> well, we'll have to figure out how to do that :D
03:23:50 <psygnisfive> i also just realized what your username means.
03:24:24 <myndzi> most people go their entire irc lives without thinking about it
03:24:31 <myndzi> they just assume i'm a girl with a weirdly spelled name
03:24:35 <psygnisfive> yeah. i'd been saying it as if it were IPA
03:24:57 <myndzi> oh, i guess with all the language silliness in here, the statistical probability is higher
03:25:19 <myndzi> i've only met one guy who got it "immediately"
03:25:31 <myndzi> i was doing some business with him and had e-mailed him some file
03:25:42 <myndzi> first time i met him he was like hey, is your e-mail this?
03:26:06 <psygnisfive> yeah, he probably thinks that the way its spelled is phonetic, too!
03:26:28 <myndzi> a fun anecdote about people assuming my gender on irc:
03:26:39 <myndzi> dalnet had this lesbian channel that some people i knew were trying to troll
03:26:47 <myndzi> but failing because the ops were nazis
03:26:53 <pikhq> Funny, the only thing I assume on IRC is sentience.
03:27:01 <pikhq> Sometimes, that proves to be a bad assumption.
03:27:04 <myndzi> you'd get banned for having a nick that was too "girly"
03:27:13 <myndzi> or if they just didn't like the looks of you
03:27:27 <myndzi> i suggested i could probably pass under the radar with no effort involved
03:27:31 <myndzi> turns out i was right :P
03:27:43 <pikhq> Hmm. Now that I think of it. I just realised myndzi's name.
03:27:46 <myndzi> i chatted with em for like an hour then was like welp, sorry girls but i actually have a penis!
03:27:50 <pikhq> And then I see psygnisfive realise it, too.
03:28:17 <myndzi> their channel, their rules
03:28:28 <pikhq> myndzi: "Sorry, but I'm just a guy who sympathises with your desire for tits."
03:28:36 <myndzi> it's irc, i'm sure they got plenty of trolling and guys looking for cybersex or whatever
03:28:56 <myndzi> oh i should mention i didn't have to lie, it just went assumed
03:29:08 <myndzi> i might consider changing my nick if i hadn't been living in it for so many years :)
03:38:01 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to mein_zei.
03:40:53 <mein_zei> im going to try and make this thing do something
03:40:56 -!- mein_zei has changed nick to psygnisfive.
03:42:03 <psygnisfive> i think this is a finite state machine, this language thingybob.
03:42:15 <myndzi> make it output "All your base are belong to us!" of course
03:43:22 <myndzi> make it into a programming game!
03:43:31 <myndzi> then you don't need i/o
04:00:04 <myndzi> or at least develop how to program with it :)
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04:21:57 <psygnisfive> there are a finite number of genes in the genome, and thus a finite number of states the environment can be in
04:22:47 <psygnisfive> there would need to be some way of using the genome to affect the environment in some way other than just putting signals into it.
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13:09:21 * oerjan realized what the punchline would be after the second panel
13:09:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, I did that too very early on
13:10:06 <AnMaster> about the second panel yes, though I had a pretty good idea already after the first panel what the topic would be!
13:12:12 <oerjan> heh the annotation implies dmm expected so
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13:28:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, this newton theme was introduced after the universe crashed right?
13:30:04 <oerjan> with some retroactive effect
13:30:35 <oerjan> (previous lewis carroll from the pirate theme was also included)
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13:31:09 <AnMaster> not sure how he and Newton are related
13:32:22 <oerjan> the theme name is "Scientific Revolution"
13:32:44 <oerjan> it's a bit dubious connection
13:33:25 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/search?q=Lewis%20Carroll&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 <-- holiday logo...
13:34:17 <FireFly> Apparently, Tetris was released today 25 years ago
13:34:24 <FireFly> AnMaster, I wonder that too
13:34:59 <AnMaster> Swedish google has another one
13:35:45 <AnMaster> since it is the national day (or whatever the English term is) today
13:37:10 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> there would need to be some way of using the genome to affect the environment in some way other than just putting signals into it.
13:37:25 <oerjan> oh i don't know - some kind of PROTEAN force, perhaps?
13:42:30 <FireFly> [14:34:45] <AnMaster> cache? <-- I tried clearing my cache
13:42:47 <FireFly> And I almost never visit the main page anyway
13:43:20 <AnMaster> FireFly, no I meant, server side caches
13:43:36 <AnMaster> it seems likely google use something like that
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13:43:47 <AnMaster> probably not squid, but something they developed themselves.
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15:12:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
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15:12:44 <fungot> asiekierk: this is gonna kick ass. man, you managed to take of hes shirt and jump up and sing skater boi, i could have been cancelled eventually anyway, i know
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15:54:09 <Spike_> i have a question regarding some esoteric languajes
15:54:39 <Spike_> specifically those who are turing-complete
15:55:39 <Spike_> if an esoteric language is turing-complete, in theory, can it be used to write any program that a turing-equivalent language can do?
15:56:22 <Spike_> for example, again in theroy, can i write any program in brainfuck that could be written in c?
15:56:53 <AnMaster> Spike_, not exactly. C has file IO and such. Which are not parts of turing-completeness
15:57:16 <AnMaster> you don't need IO at all for Turing completeness in fact. But you could calculate anything you could do in C.
15:57:36 <AnMaster> just might not be able to, say, output it, or write it to a file, or send it over a tcp connection or whatever.
15:57:50 <Spike_> thank you, that is a question i have allways had
15:58:11 <AnMaster> consider underload for example
15:58:12 <Spike_> but maybe file io could be implemented in brainfuck...
15:58:31 <AnMaster> it has no input (it does have standard output though), yet it is TC
15:59:26 <AnMaster> however, I'm no expert at underload, you should ask either ais523 or oerjan if you want to know more about it. (Neither seems to be here atm).
15:59:38 <AnMaster> I guess a few other know it too.
16:00:40 <AnMaster> Spike_, as for file IO in bf, there are ways to add that. Basically they work by connecting the standard input/output from the BF program to some sort of daemon. Then the bf programs sends command to that daemon, which can then open file, output to the real console or whatever
16:00:53 <AnMaster> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe is one such
16:01:34 <AnMaster> Spike_, befunge98 could probably do most stuff C could
16:02:04 <AnMaster> (with lots of "fingerprints", which are somewhat like loadable extensions that interpreters can optionally implement)
16:02:17 <Spike_> the fact is that im writing a paper, and im studying turing tarpits
16:02:29 <AnMaster> ah. Befunge is *far* from a turing tarpit
16:03:22 <AnMaster> Spike_, oh and you might be interested in /// (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes)
16:03:28 <Spike_> so i was thinking about asserting that with a turing-complete, turing-tarpit essoteric language you can virtually do whatever i could be done with a turing-equivalent language
16:03:38 <AnMaster> recently proven to be TC by oerjan
16:03:40 <Spike_> sorry, "it could be done"
16:04:20 <AnMaster> Spike_, in a TC language you can implement any other TC language. It might not be easy though.
16:04:34 <AnMaster> well, that is assuming you ignore IO
16:05:06 <AnMaster> Spike_, there is a C -> BF compiler. ais523 is working on it as a gcc backend. Generates very very large output files.
16:06:57 <AnMaster> Spike_, btw http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Turing-complete
16:09:18 <Spike_> very good link, thank you!
16:09:47 <AnMaster> btw http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ == http://esolangs.org/
16:10:33 <AnMaster> Spike_, of course you could implement a virtual filesystem inside a bf program. IIRC gcc-bf does that (or will do, it is work in progress...)
16:11:12 <Spike_> i find awesome how people can do so much with so few... :D
16:12:08 <AnMaster> I tend to prefer to write interpreters/compilers for esolangs. In fact I'm currently working on one of my compilers.
16:12:27 <Spike_> which language is it for?
16:12:32 <AnMaster> yes, optimising bf to C compiler
16:13:11 <Spike_> if i find some spare time, i think it would be nice to write some more apache mods to esoteric languages
16:13:18 <AnMaster> well, there are better ones. I think esotope-bfc is currently the bf->C compiler which produces the most optimised code...
16:13:53 <Spike_> http://modbf.sourceforge.net/
16:13:53 <AnMaster> though I think olsner (not here atm) proved mod_rewrite to be TC.
16:14:26 <Spike_> the future of web 2.0! XD
16:14:44 <AnMaster> http://olsner.se/2008/01/27/bfthue-in-mod_rewrite/
16:15:49 <AnMaster> Spike_, I have also written one of the fastest befunge98 interpreters. (Fastest I guess, until fizzie finishes that jit-compiler for befunge he was working on...)
16:16:11 <GregorR> Heh, I notice the bfjoust scoreboard no longer breaks 60.
16:17:05 <Spike_> i find befunge mind bugling ...
16:17:23 <GregorR> AnMaster: Not really, ever since I changed it to take percentages of wins over all possible runs, it took a long time for them to go over 60 again.
16:17:36 <GregorR> AnMaster: Bugling is playing the bugle :P
16:17:51 <Spike_> im from Madrid, Spain... :D
16:17:54 * GregorR is going to use the expression "mind bugling" from now on.
16:17:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, yeah I noticed aspell thought it existed, but even google define: couldn't find what it was.
16:18:29 <AnMaster> Spike_, and yes befunge might come as a shock the first time you see it.
16:18:47 <AnMaster> but it is actually quite a lot simpler to code in than for example brainf*ck
16:19:13 <GregorR> (Which is why BF is bettar lawl)
16:19:18 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:19:32 <AnMaster> Spike_, the bot fungot here is written in Befunge-98
16:19:32 <fungot> AnMaster: i love avril.
16:19:54 <GregorR> My bot may not be written in Befunge, but it supports more languages :P
16:19:55 <AnMaster> oh and it has that chat thing based on Markov chains thing
16:19:55 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
16:21:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, you could write an IRC bot in bf, but it would need to be hooked up to netcat or such.
16:22:11 <AnMaster> while for befunge98 you can do it in pure befunge98
16:22:30 <AnMaster> assuming the fingerprint SOCK is implemented in the interpreter you use
16:22:38 <GregorR> !bfjoust pooper_scooper >(+>->)*5-[>[+]>[-].+]
16:22:46 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR_pooper_scooper: 7.1
16:25:09 <GregorR> !bfjoust eggsplosion (++--)*10000
16:25:18 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR_eggsplosion: 4.1
16:26:50 <AnMaster> I thought it said -43 in the first line too
16:29:17 <pikhq> ... You've been moving the pointer around, and then do [] on it.
16:29:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do p[n] where n is the offset.
16:29:51 <pikhq> Got that. It makes me smile.
16:29:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is somewhere near the middle of lostking
16:30:07 <AnMaster> so I have no idea about the absolute position at that point
16:30:29 <pikhq> I suspect GCC doesn't like it too much, but GCC can shut up.
16:30:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, it didn't complain at -Wall -Wextra at least
16:30:51 <AnMaster> and as far as I know that is valid C?
16:32:02 <AnMaster> of course, program could move outside that, which would segfault
16:32:21 <AnMaster> however, I plan to add an option to set another tape size.
16:32:46 <AnMaster> (or you could just change the output file yourself)
16:40:11 <pikhq> No, I mean doesn't like optimising that much.
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16:50:55 <AnMaster> I do have a vague idea about the cause, but I can't seem to make a simple test case to reproduce it. Only shows up in the compiled output of that gcc-bf generated file...
16:51:24 <AnMaster> which takes about 5 minutes to compile
16:53:06 <AnMaster> as I suspected. Empty expression.
16:57:08 <asiekierk> I want to make an esolang that can be made as a drawing
16:58:04 <asiekierk> you can make it into a working drawing
16:59:23 <asiekierk> or an invented, pictogram-based language
17:01:19 <asiekierk> BF could be translated to one well
17:01:34 <asiekierk> [ and ] being sun-shaped halves, which are then combined to match
17:01:40 <asiekierk> , and . being an up and a down arrow
17:01:50 <asiekierk> + being a /\ triangle and - being a \/ triangle
17:02:40 <AnMaster> um. So parsing it would just be a matter of doing OCR and then interpreting the text
17:03:08 <AnMaster> asiekierk, I'm pretty sure unicode has all of those symbols
17:03:31 <AnMaster> asiekierk, fix your encoding then, Or font
17:03:40 <tetha> , and . should be more like a mouth-like symbol and an eye
17:03:59 <tetha> but I like the idea :)
17:04:02 <AnMaster> tetha, if unicode doesn't have them, then "Wingdings" probably does
17:04:41 <AnMaster> asiekierk, does ö work? (o with two dots)
17:04:45 <asiekierk> and . will be a mouth-resembling symbol
17:04:53 <AnMaster> asiekierk, then your font fails
17:04:54 <asiekierk> probably because I'm using Fixedsys
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17:05:09 <AnMaster> asiekierk, try Dejavu for example.
17:05:23 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
17:05:37 <AnMaster> asiekierk, Dejavu Sans Mono is fixed font
17:05:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:05:57 <AnMaster> and is installed on all modern Linux systems by default as far as I know
17:06:15 <pikhq> Nice terminal font.
17:06:38 <pikhq> You mean there's IRC out-of-terminal?
17:06:41 <pikhq> asiekierk: BACK! BACK!
17:06:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think ehird uses that.
17:07:00 <AnMaster> with *shudder* variable width font
17:07:10 <asiekierk> Well, lemme show you how would a typical CAT program look like
17:07:14 <AnMaster> possibly Hellvetica or something.
17:07:37 <AnMaster> asiekierk, as long as you don't want us to open *.bmp...
17:07:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: XP .bmp saves to GIF and JPG.
17:08:02 <tetha> modern MS paint's can even save pngs
17:08:18 <asiekierk> But I think I will just take photos of hand-drawn drawings
17:09:34 * AnMaster waits another 5 minutes after fixing the bug...
17:11:19 <pikhq> Brainfuck backend for GCC.
17:11:50 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
17:13:19 <pikhq> ... You seriously don't know what a backend is?
17:13:51 <tetha> no, I am just wondering about the backend part, because from my knowledge about backends, that would mean that gcc-bf generates brainfuck
17:14:18 <pikhq> A compiler can be said to have two basic parts: a frontend and a backend. The frontend takes in code, transforms it to an intermediate form. The backend converts that to the final output code.
17:14:37 <tetha> ok, so people are more crazy than I expected :)
17:14:50 <pikhq> asiekierk: It's a work in progress.
17:15:06 <pikhq> And you've been able to do that for a few years. Gregor wrote C2BF a while back. :p
17:15:23 <asiekierk> Did you ever get anything to compile
17:15:25 <pikhq> Pester ais523 for more details.
17:15:41 <pikhq> IIRC, he just about had Hello, World! working.
17:18:37 <asiekierk> uploading the CATs in BF-Gram in just a moment
17:19:58 <asiekierk> http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8763/bfgramcat.jpg
17:25:14 <AnMaster> asiekierk, a simple "hello world" program from gcc-bf is over 430K when RLL encoded
17:25:44 <AnMaster> I'm not going to try to expand it
17:26:25 <AnMaster> where that * means "times" yes.
17:26:56 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I'm not going to try to expand it
17:27:07 <AnMaster> I process the file directly as the RLE encoding
17:27:26 <AnMaster> yes. There are quite a few of them
17:27:31 <AnMaster> asiekierk, there isn't one after every one
17:27:33 <asiekierk> and repeat the char before "<" that many times
17:27:41 <AnMaster> asiekierk, I know. But the output would be huge
17:28:05 <AnMaster> asiekierk, you can figure it out yourself, I'll upload it somewhere
17:28:59 <AnMaster> asiekierk, tell me when you found out.
17:30:23 <asiekierk> it says nowhere in the file "your soul belongs to me now"
17:30:39 <AnMaster> why did you loose interest when you had to do it yourself?
17:31:33 <ehird> i type at 100-110wpm
17:32:10 <ehird> 00:06 AnMaster: nescience, well I'm large. In all possible meanings of large. Large hands. Tall (189.6 cm). Wide shoulders. I find full sized PC keyboard small.
17:32:14 <ehird> you missed one meaning
17:32:34 * pikhq types at a mere 70wpm.
17:32:43 <pikhq> Mostly for lack of bothering to get faster.
17:33:04 <Deewiant> ehird: No, you fail. There's more than one he missed.
17:33:25 <Deewiant> ("Fat" is equally valid as what you probably had in mind.)
17:33:27 <AnMaster> then I guess it wasn't all possible meanings
17:34:13 <Deewiant> I think we could quite easily come up with more.
17:34:25 <ehird> He missed at least one that he is still missing.
17:34:31 <ehird> (And the rather obvious one.)
17:35:14 <Deewiant> I didn't realize it until your LOLFAIL, which got me on the right thinking track.
17:35:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but you're always contrarian about things.
17:35:39 <AnMaster> I *do* have large foots. Size 46 iirc.
17:35:48 <ehird> "No, that doesn't sound like 'cock taste good', it sounds like 'qack tek goot'."
17:35:56 <asiekierk> http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5769/bfgramextra.jpg
17:35:57 <ehird> "25dpi should be enough for everyone"
17:36:07 <asiekierk> BFGram - pbrain, Brainfork and Boolf**k extra commands
17:36:42 <ehird> AnMaster: You're still missing it.
17:36:43 <Deewiant> You're a bit taller than me but my shoe size is typically 47+.
17:36:50 <AnMaster> hm... "gb_sets" being more efficient than "sets" module. Not.
17:37:02 <asiekierk> I duno how will a BF-Gram quine work
17:37:12 <asiekierk> Well, it would need to output a BMP
17:37:20 <asiekierk> containing the exact same data as the input BMP
17:37:43 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:37:57 <EgoBot> 97 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>.++++.>+.<+.>>++++.-----------------.++++++++++++.>-. [288]
17:37:58 <ehird> AnMaster: It's thickness of hair I'm talking about.
17:38:31 <AnMaster> ehird, oh. Ok. Hm I don't know. I do have quite a lot of hair. But each hair? No clue
17:38:50 <asiekierk> Omg, is it just me or am I going to convert 97 BF code parts to BF-Gram
17:39:02 <AnMaster> "one hair"? Is that really right
17:39:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm joking; I actually meant toe size.
17:39:43 <AnMaster> or am I mixing this up with Swedish hår/hårstrå
17:40:09 <AnMaster> (the latter being one hair, the former being in general, like the total hair on one head or whatever)
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17:44:38 <asiekierk> I just made a pictogram representation of BF
17:45:49 <asiekierk> http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8763/bfgramcat.jpg
18:06:21 <ehird> I hate high-resolution monitors
18:06:32 <ehird> they're so awesome, but, but, but everything would go so slow.
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18:16:55 <asiekierk> Except if you have a good graphic card
18:17:05 <asiekierk> or 4 graphic cards connected in one :D
18:17:11 <asiekierk> each handles a quarter of the screen
18:17:34 <ehird> asiekierk: multi graphics cards is commonplace
18:17:58 <AnMaster> ehird, for high end systems yes
18:18:11 <ehird> AnMaster: for any system with >1 monitor, too
18:18:50 <ehird> asiekierk: high-res is over 1920x1200 for me
18:18:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, get a CRT, then when you want to view text you don't need high FPS, run at max res. When you need to play 3D games, use a lower res.
18:18:53 <ehird> so, super high res
18:19:18 <ehird> AnMaster: great, now I can have blurriness, eye strain, flickering and the horrid, horrid WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE all the time
18:19:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you hear the whine too?
18:19:38 <AnMaster> I know lots of people who claim they don't whine
18:19:47 <ehird> AnMaster: as you get older you hear less high freq noises
18:19:58 <ehird> also, some people just have less sensitive hearing
18:20:02 <AnMaster> I can hear if the TV is on over from upstairs. Due to the whine
18:20:12 <ehird> I can hear it from in the room, though
18:20:39 <asiekierk> I have too sensitive hearing machinma
18:20:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I can hear it in the over other noise too, but then I need to be just one or two rooms away
18:20:45 <asiekierk> I can't just make my speaker quiet
18:20:53 <asiekierk> I need to literally flick the power switch on the back
18:21:05 <asiekierk> As well as the TV being quiet as hell in another room
18:21:16 <asiekierk> and i can't sleep when my DVD recorder's hard drive is doing noise
18:21:27 <AnMaster> asiekierk, you mean you would want to leave the loadspeaker's on?
18:21:37 <AnMaster> "DVD recorder's hard drive" <-- *blink*?
18:21:40 <ehird> asiekierk: wait, you're that sensitive and fan/harddrive noise doesn't bother you?
18:21:55 <ehird> well, yeah, that works
18:22:03 <asiekierk> what if i want to record a show overnight
18:22:08 <asiekierk> then the DVD recorder noise bothers me
18:22:15 <ehird> asiekierk: put it in a wardrobe
18:22:31 <asiekierk> and i don't have a real wardrobe that close
18:22:37 <asiekierk> it's so far away the cables won't reach
18:23:00 <ehird> asiekierk: stop using optical media? :P
18:23:18 <asiekierk> my DVD recorder is a HDD/DVD recorder
18:23:34 <ehird> asiekierk: replace the HD with a solid state drive
18:23:40 <ehird> if it uses regular sata you just need to open it up
18:23:47 <asiekierk> ...It's a 160GB drive, and it's under warranty
18:24:03 <asiekierk> How big a SSD can get to not be overpriced
18:24:13 <ehird> asiekierk: well, you don't need much speed, right?
18:24:19 <ehird> since it's not an OS drive
18:24:43 <asiekierk> and I need to remove the screws and all that to remove the HDD
18:24:44 <ehird> asiekierk: any HD can do that
18:25:08 <asiekierk> wouldn't the fan noise bother me then
18:25:25 <ehird> asiekierk: does it have a fan?
18:25:28 <ehird> I wouldn't expect it to
18:25:43 <asiekierk> but it has a DVD and an HDD and is about the size of a C64
18:26:33 <ehird> hmm the 128GB ssds seem to be ~$200 (= 650 zloty); but you can get 64GB for $138 (= 448 zloty)
18:26:43 <ehird> pretty sure you can get cheaper SSDs elsewhere, but meh
18:26:54 <ehird> prices should go down in a few months
18:28:05 <asiekierk> i don't need to record stuff overnight
18:28:13 <asiekierk> OR I can just move the DVD recorder to my parents' room
18:28:24 <ehird> that is probably the cheaper solution
18:28:37 <ehird> if only doing that with computers was practical i'd be saving myself hundreds.
18:28:57 <asiekierk> in other topic, what about the abomination known as BF-Gram
18:29:00 <ehird> asiekierk: Laptops have fan
18:29:13 <ehird> You can get solid-state laptops, but a bunch won't match up to a good computer
18:29:15 <ehird> And they'll overheat
18:29:31 <ehird> asiekierk: Your laptop just burnt
18:29:35 <ehird> They're in there for a reason
18:29:51 <asiekierk> or put it outside with an opened case with fans on a cold day
18:30:17 <ehird> asiekierk: just use phase-change cooling
18:30:28 <ehird> a huge tube connects to your cpu
18:30:33 <ehird> and goes into a gigantic fridge
18:30:34 <asiekierk> also, why won't you get a small netbook that has VLC
18:30:37 <ehird> you get temps like -50C
18:30:46 <asiekierk> what was that app to connect between PCs?
18:31:01 <ehird> anyway I like having a computer case next to me
18:31:10 <asiekierk> ehird: Do a cardboard one! *smiles*
18:31:26 <ehird> asiekierk: anyway, this is all a lot less fun than watercooling it
18:31:35 <ehird> with a gigantic radiator attached to the case, so you don't need fans
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18:54:45 <AnMaster> ehird, even better is putting the actual computer in another room. Then have keyboard, mouse, monitor and CD drive in the room you are in. With some sort of extension thingy
18:55:14 <ehird> I'm tired of you complaining that I don't read the rest of the text before replying and still do it yourself.
18:55:26 <ehird> AnMaster: No, before that I said: because I like having my case next to me.
18:55:31 <ehird> What's that? You didn't read it? Gee, I knew that.
18:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, so go for the cardboard case with a cd in it
18:56:05 <ehird> AnMaster: That is not having my case next to me.
18:56:06 <AnMaster> ehird, but I assume you want the case close to be able to, you know, push the power button, use the cd and such?
18:56:12 <AnMaster> or why do you want the case next to you
18:56:19 <ehird> No, I just like my hardware to be easily-available.
18:56:29 <ehird> Besides, there's nowhere I could put it.
18:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, walking a few steps is hard?
18:56:45 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that is a good reason
18:56:47 <ehird> AnMaster: That is not next to me
18:57:50 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but I still don't see a good reason for it. You probably need to get a screwdriver to open the case. Sure there are cases you can open without screwdriver. Did you decide on such a case?
18:58:06 -!- coppro has changed nick to NotEelis.
18:58:14 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't want access to my hardware necessarily, I just like it being there :P
18:58:17 <ehird> “By 2029 no computer - or "machine intelligence" - will have passed the Turing Test.” DETAILED TERMS »
18:58:28 <ehird> will go to The Electronic Frontier Foundation if Kapor wins,
18:58:30 <ehird> or The Kurzweil Foundation if Kurzweil wins.
18:58:32 -!- NotEelis has changed nick to coppro.
18:58:32 <ehird> http://www.longbets.org/1
18:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Whatever Kurzweil wants, I guess.
18:59:39 <ehird> [[The Kurzweil Foundation, which is Ray's private foundation, used these funds for the Kurzweil Foundation's scholarship program, providing scholarships to worthy blind students. ]]
18:59:43 <ehird> Probably Singularity-related stuff as well.
18:59:49 <ehird> (And by implication AI)
19:00:14 <ehird> I'd bet on Kurzweil's side, but 2029 is so close.
19:00:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you noticed that google fails at holiday logo?
19:00:38 <AnMaster> no holiday logo on the main page
19:00:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ISP-level cache fail.
19:01:04 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm. I'm pretty sure my ISP doesn't do that
19:01:05 <ehird> AnMaster: it was there earlier today.
19:01:08 <ehird> also, all ISPs cache
19:01:32 <AnMaster> ehird, let me check from somewhere that definitely doesn't do it (data center)
19:01:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I just said:
19:01:49 <ehird> but earlier today it was there.
19:01:54 <ehird> AnMaster: also, your data center does cache
19:02:08 <ehird> any ISP that doesn't will be going out of business due to bandwidth charges in 3,2,1
19:03:09 <AnMaster> ehird, they are hooked up to level3 directly. So if level3 caches.. maybe.
19:03:24 <ehird> Everything caches. Except maybe Tier1; I have no idea about tier 1 ISPs
19:03:52 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#Telecom_Providers_Tier_1_.26_2
19:04:00 <ehird> L3 is in that list.
19:04:04 <ehird> OK, then; they might not cache.
19:04:42 <ehird> [[Ms. Cynthia Clay, the Shakespeare aficionado, was thrice misclassified as a computer. At least one of the judges made her classification on the premise that ``[no] human would have that amount of knowledge about Shakespeare.'']]
19:05:31 <AnMaster> [...]<br clear=all id=lgpd><a href="/search?q=tetris&hl=en&ct=tetris09&oi=ddle"><img src=/logos/tetris09.gif width=300 height=144 border=0 id=logo onload="window.lol&&lol()" alt="Celebrating 25 Years of The Tetris Effect � courtesy of Tetris Holding, LLC" title="Celebrating 25 Years of The Tetris Effect � courtesy of Tetris Holding, LLC"></a><br><br><form action="/search" name=f>[...]
19:05:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:05:44 <ehird> AnMaster: window.lol&&lol()
19:06:07 <AnMaster> I was wondering about that too
19:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, it is there on normal google too
19:07:08 <AnMaster> as in "normal without the holiday logo"
19:07:32 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/logos/tetris09.gif
19:07:39 <ehird> probably a workaround bug
19:07:41 <AnMaster> they fail. They use gif. YET IT ISN'T ANIMATED
19:07:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You fail.
19:07:52 <AnMaster> it should show a game of tetris
19:07:58 <ehird> GIFs are usually smaller for such images.
19:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, it is smaller as png though
19:08:22 <ehird> Less browser support; and are you sure?
19:08:22 * myndzi stabs "Tetris Holding, LLC"
19:08:31 <myndzi> fuck you and your copyright or patents or whatever the fuck it is :P
19:08:40 <myndzi> 25 years indeed, isn't that enough? :\
19:08:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure if you use something like advpng/optipng or similiar.
19:08:51 <AnMaster> ehird, because sure, there are bad implementations of deflate.
19:08:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Go test it; Google aren't stupid.
19:09:59 <AnMaster> $ du -b tetris09.png tetris09.gif
19:10:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Now, gzip them.
19:10:13 <AnMaster> checked that images are equivalent
19:11:01 <ehird> *shrug* There's probably a server-side related effect.
19:11:02 <AnMaster> gzip for png is pointless. Since gzip uses the same compression as png
19:12:32 <AnMaster> ehird, after using advpng, optipng and pngout:
19:12:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Go ask google.
19:13:00 <AnMaster> imagemagick doesn't compress well
19:13:54 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it would be perfect for a gif-animation.
19:14:09 <ehird> Yes, but also annoying.
19:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also well compressed png are in general smaller than the same as gif. The exception is when the image is so small that the larger file header overhead of png makes the image larger.
19:15:08 <ehird> There is almost certainly a reason
19:15:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since there is no transparency in that gif (background is actually white), I don't know
19:15:48 <AnMaster> IE 6 did have problems with transparent pngs in some cases. But that wouldn't apply here.
19:16:26 <AnMaster> ehird, so this is annoying? http://ipv6.google.com/
19:16:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I disagree. The animation doesn't repeat after all
19:16:55 <ehird> more annoying than no animation
19:24:50 <ehird> apparently kurzweil invented the first any-font OCR, CCD flat-bed scanner AND complete TTS synthesizer
19:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that link... Interesting TeliaSonera is a tire1...
19:25:29 <ehird> is that like the sweden/finland BT?
19:25:32 <ehird> looks like it from wp
19:25:39 <ehird> AnMaster: british telecom
19:25:43 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Group
19:25:59 <AnMaster> It is one of the largest such companies here
19:26:28 <ehird> bt basically control the telephone lines here.
19:29:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure if they own the actual cabels though
19:32:30 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway... Is any UK company a tire1 carrier?
19:32:44 <ehird> Tire is what you put on cars.
19:32:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, no.
19:33:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> (' wheels) <-- ((quot wheels)) ?
19:34:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, no. <-- This is supposed to show Sweden > UK ;P
19:34:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Tier-1 ISPs suck to actually be connected to.
19:35:14 <AnMaster> ehird, cheaper though. Much cheaper.
19:35:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, cheaper to _be_ a Tire1 than a tire2
19:35:50 <ehird> Tier-1 is all the big boys.
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ehird, then I misunderstood the text saying "A network that can reach every other network on the Internet without purchasing IP transit or paying settlements."
19:36:13 <AnMaster> source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network
19:36:21 <ehird> Yeah, uh, you're being stupid.
19:36:27 <ehird> Being a Tier-1 is not easy/cheap in any way.
19:36:45 <ehird> (Especially the amount of cash you'd need to bribe all the other Tier-1s to accept you)
19:36:52 <AnMaster> ehird, logically, not having to pay such transit would be cheaper...
19:37:05 <ehird> AnMaster: But they have to handle a lot more traffic themselves
19:37:09 <ehird> As opposed to delegating it
19:37:14 <ehird> [[Tier 1 networks are closer to the "center" of the Internet.
19:37:14 <ehird> In reality, Tier 1 networks usually have only a small number of peers (typically only other Tier 1s and very large Tier 2s), while Tier 2 networks are motivated to peer with many other Tier 2 and end-user networks. Thus a Tier 2 network with good peering is frequently much "closer" to most end users or content than a Tier 1.
19:37:17 <ehird> Tier 1 networks by definition offer "better" quality Internet connectivity.
19:37:19 <ehird> By definition, there are networks which Tier 1 networks have only one path to, and if they lose that path, they have no "backup transit" which would preserve their full connectivity.
19:37:22 <ehird> Some Tier 2 networks are significantly larger than some Tier 1 networks, and are often able to provide more or better connectivity.]]
19:38:23 <AnMaster> ehird, if so, what is the deal with being tire1
19:38:48 <ehird> AnMaster: The deal is that they're basically the interweb's backbone.
19:38:56 <ehird> Everything eventually comes down to them.
19:39:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also I always mixed up tier and tier
19:39:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, they have immense power and control.
19:39:50 <ehird> Tier is former, tire is latter.
19:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, when you pronounce them the issue isn't. (Intentionally messed up grammar, but I *think* it is still valid?)
19:41:09 <ehird> "When you pronounce them the issue is not."
19:41:12 <AnMaster> the issue is seeing the difference/spelling it
19:41:14 <ehird> you said "the issue"
19:41:19 <ehird> and gave it a property
19:41:30 <ehird> which is nonsensical if it's not, it isn't existing
19:41:55 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> which is nonsensical if it's not, it isn't existing" <-- what
19:42:03 <ehird> AnMaster: so do I :)
19:42:25 <AnMaster> ehird, were you trying to do the same thing as I did?
19:42:53 <ehird> but explaining metalogical syntactic/morphic distinctions difficults the mind!
19:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what you meant then
19:43:06 <ehird> i don't really know
19:45:32 <AnMaster> ehird, that long bet thing, who is behind it
19:45:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, that's just one of them. They use dates starting with an 0, then the 4-digit year, so the Long Now foundation or an affiliate
19:45:58 <ehird> (since they're the only ones planning for user 10000)
19:46:22 <ehird> "STAKES $1,000,000"
19:46:23 <AnMaster> year -> user <-- how did you manage that...
19:46:41 <ehird> AnMaster: y is next to u, s is below-and-next of e
19:46:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no, I'm working out the intricacies of the watercooling set up
19:47:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, that's why I'm not spending that much
19:47:17 <AnMaster> ehird, 75% of the letters were typoed!
19:47:20 <ehird> that was just a maxed out prebuilt from endpcnoise
19:47:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what's the point of that
19:47:30 <ehird> I only use one box
19:47:40 <ehird> i'd just end up doing a very slow analog of SLI
19:47:52 <bsmntbombdood> and you will get twice the performance of a single $4000 computer
19:48:07 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:48:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no i won't
19:48:16 -!- tetha has joined.
19:48:34 <ehird> AnMaster: "Long Bets was started in 02003 as a project of The Long Now Foundation"
19:48:40 <ehird> since the kurzweil one was #1 it's been on since 2003
19:48:53 <ehird> Jeff Bezos, founder and CEO of Amazon.com, provided the two grants with which the Long Bets website was built.
19:49:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i have no use for two disconnected machines, anyway
19:49:21 <ehird> I only use one computer, for all purposes
19:49:26 <ehird> and I hate context-switching
19:49:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: err, and?
19:50:01 <ehird> that's 4 computers
19:50:17 <ehird> anyway, the sum of computing power may be greater than one
19:50:21 <ehird> but you can't utilize them as one unit
19:50:33 <ehird> which defeats the point, for anything other than mass computation
19:50:38 <ehird> no luck gaming, etc
19:51:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: stop saying $4k
19:51:04 <ehird> I'm not buying a 4k computer
19:51:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: nope
19:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: not with i7s it isn'
19:51:55 <ehird> they only have one QPI
19:52:14 <AnMaster> so you can't use more than one i7 on a motherboard?
19:52:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $500 more
19:52:30 <AnMaster> I guess Intel want you to spend money on Xeon instead...
19:52:53 <ehird> AnMaster: they expect you not to go excessive w/ >8 threads.
19:53:03 <AnMaster> ehird, a server very well might
19:53:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: (he's smiling because you recommended AMD)
19:53:09 <ehird> AnMaster: i7 is a consumer processor
19:53:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i said $4k was the cost of a system comparable in specs (apart from gfx card) to the system I'm going for; by a boutique system vendor; optimized for air-cooled silence
19:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how many xeon's / mobo can you have
19:53:29 <ehird> thus, not comparable to a DIY watercooled setup
19:53:39 <AnMaster> and not physical dimensions of mobo
19:53:41 <ehird> AnMaster: 2 = 8 cores, 16 threads. With the upcoming Nehalem-XE,
19:54:14 <AnMaster> so can you have 32 Xeons on a single mobo for a total of 256 cores?
19:54:19 <ehird> AnMaster: after 2 CPUs you will do better with a cluster
19:54:47 <ehird> AnMaster: intel don't make >million dollar decisions based on theory
19:54:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what software
19:54:58 <ehird> Nehalem-XE is a new chip thing
19:55:07 <bsmntbombdood> that lets you migrate processes between different nodes in a cluster
19:55:14 <ehird> it may not be called nehalem-xe I forget
19:55:15 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But you said you could have 4? On one mobo? Each with 8 cores?
19:55:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Which is 32 cores.
19:55:28 <ehird> Four times eight is thirty-two.
19:55:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't have more on one mobo? :/
19:55:38 <AnMaster> that was what I was asking about
19:55:41 <ehird> even fucking opterons only go up to 4 cpus
19:56:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, I expect total cost of the actual computer + cooling system to be about ~$3000
19:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, Is this a hard limit in the CPU architecture?
19:56:17 <ehird> w/ IO devices, ~$3700
19:56:19 <AnMaster> or just because no one made such mobos
19:56:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it's because any more is fucking stupid
19:56:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: buy a cluster
19:56:54 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But you said i7 couldn't do dual cpu due to only one QPI. So Xeons have only 4 QPIs or something then?
19:57:01 <ehird> i hear IBM are offering them at 50 billion a pop :p
19:57:05 <AnMaster> "only" not being the right word
19:57:18 <ehird> AnMaster: also, not current things
19:57:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: building a cluster? by your lonesome?
19:57:32 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is the single "extra" QPI needed?
19:57:33 <ehird> it'll be obsolete before you're 1/4 don
19:57:45 <AnMaster> I mean, if it was just one to every other CPU it would be zero on i7
19:57:45 <ehird> AnMaster: one of the QPIs is the connection to the memory
19:57:49 <ehird> The front side bus has been replaced by the Intel QuickPath Interconnect interface. Motherboards must use a chipset that supports QuickPath.
19:57:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm talking like a 100-machine cluster here
19:58:18 <AnMaster> ehird, thus in a 4 CPU Xeon system you need one QPI to each other CPU + one to memory for each?
19:59:33 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, is it a cluster two just two machines?
19:59:53 <AnMaster> I mean, it is really the same thing, just not a lot of computers
20:02:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, i probably won't go for the 965 since it's being phased out
20:02:43 <ehird> 975 XE or just overclock a 920 for me, most likely
20:03:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's not out yet
20:03:24 <ehird> 940 and 965 XE are being phased out, replaced by 950 (3.06ghz) and 975 XE (3.33ghz)
20:03:26 <ehird> but it's not out yet
20:03:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 975 is out 2009-06-03 apparently
20:03:54 <ehird> so i guess it's out
20:04:05 <ehird> should trickle into stores soon!
20:04:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ooh
20:04:15 <ehird> there are non-clock changes
20:04:18 <ehird> D0 processor stepping
20:04:22 <ehird> although I think some older i7s have that
20:04:27 <ehird> (newer generations of them)
20:04:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no idea but apparently it makes things faster.
20:04:41 <ehird> the literal box that is
20:05:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: [[The results of our memory subsystem test show clearly that we shouldn’t expect CPUs with new processor stepping to perform any different. The differences we see in obtained results are all within the measuring error. ]]
20:05:37 <ehird> ok, apparently it's mostly better power consumption and overclocking potential
20:05:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 975 XE has been OCed to >5ghz on air
20:06:33 <bsmntbombdood> i don't understand why, if such large overclocks are possible, why not just increase the stock clock speed?
20:06:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a few reasons
20:07:07 <ehird> (a) this way we can roll out more expensive pre-OCed models! $$$$$$$$$$$
20:07:16 <ehird> (b) ok, but, can we guarantee it won't fail? warranties, y'know.
20:07:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, it varies from CPU to CPU
20:07:43 <ehird> some high-clock CPUs don't work at the high-clock
20:07:52 <ehird> so they just back off the clock and sell as the lower-clocked one
20:08:54 <ehird> no process is perfect
20:09:02 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
20:09:10 <ehird> beats throwing them away
20:13:01 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: the qpi in an i7 connects it to the northbridge
20:13:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: donate $10,000 to me and I'll build you a beowulf of Xeons
20:13:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why not
20:13:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why not
20:14:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you can't utilize your i7 machiaen to the fullest anyway :P
20:14:53 <ehird> i mean, vs a core2quad
20:15:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you wanna bet that? i'll give you a similar-clocked core2quad with the same amount of DDR3 ram etc
20:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are going for a core2 then?
20:15:59 <ehird> AnMaster: i love excessiveness
20:16:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you won't be able to utilize your planned i7 to the fullest anyway :P
20:16:27 <ehird> AnMaster: did you read what I said?
20:16:30 <ehird> i. love. excessiveness.
20:16:35 <ehird> yes, I can't utilize all that power; so what? :)
20:16:44 <AnMaster> ehird, Yes. I thought you meant having excessive money left on the bank afterwards.
20:16:55 <ehird> not... not really.
20:20:45 <Asztal> now where will I go for an example of an unusable website?
20:21:22 <pikhq> Archive.org, pull up some older versions of the Microsoft website.
20:22:18 <pikhq> Oh, right. It's *still awful*.
20:25:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> SF IS DOWN <-- temp or perm?
20:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: oh come on, take a guess
20:25:58 <ehird> SF is down forever
20:26:03 <ehird> all data has been permanently erased
20:26:05 <ehird> including all the backups
20:26:17 <ehird> which they stored in an underground bunker, on tapes
20:26:27 <ehird> with 1,000 guards 24/7
20:28:48 <AnMaster> ehird, but then what is the news
20:28:56 <ehird> i wanted to dl something
20:29:06 <AnMaster> ehird, their mirrors tend to be up still
20:29:35 <AnMaster> http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/download.sourceforge.net/ iirc
20:29:43 <ehird> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/files/2009/06/areyoupennorteller.jpg
20:30:00 <Asztal> http://kent.dl.sourceforge.net/
20:30:01 <AnMaster> ehird, look at the google cache copy of the project download page
20:30:13 <AnMaster> then use it but the mirror instead
20:30:18 <ehird> http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/download.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/d/de/desmume/
20:30:57 <ehird> i did it all with clicks
20:31:16 <ehird> [[DeSmuME can boot homebrew and games, some of which are
20:31:20 <ehird> optimistic README there
20:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't easy to emulated proprietary hardware. I'm not surprised.
20:31:55 <ehird> yeah, it's just funny :)
20:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you will find the same for all the other ones, like zsnes, mupen64plus, VBA, ...
20:32:48 <AnMaster> similar phrases somewhere in the docs
20:32:54 <ehird> AnMaster: they don't say that in such a deadpan manner.
20:33:27 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure about VICE, but probably the same too
20:33:50 <AnMaster> though emulating C64 isn't nearly as hard. And much have been found out.
20:34:12 <ehird> and stop starting sentences with... with whatever those are, I forget :P
20:34:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what you mean. So
20:34:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "And" is invalid at the start of a sentence.
20:35:11 <AnMaster> Citation needed. As far as I remember, it is just highly discouraged.
20:35:24 <AnMaster> But I have seen it quite often in English.
20:35:41 <AnMaster> pretty sure I saw it in HHGTG for example.
20:35:49 <AnMaster> for the artistic effect I guess.
20:35:55 <pikhq> It is valid in informal contexts.
20:36:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, as I thought then. Highly discouraged.
20:36:18 <ehird> pikhq: no, not really
20:36:23 <pikhq> And yes, #esoteric is an informal context.
20:36:25 <ehird> it's as "valid" as broken english is valid
20:36:35 <ehird> i.e., it can be understood
20:36:37 <ehird> but it is not valid english
20:36:57 <pikhq> And yet, we don't care if it's valid.
20:37:09 <ehird> pikhq: It's incredibly awkward.
20:37:21 <ehird> AnMaster: 2+2=4[citation needed HAHAHAHA I'M SO WITTY I CAN REFERENCE WIKIPEDIA]
20:37:24 <pikhq> In informal contexts, we don't give a flying fuck.
20:37:32 <ehird> pikhq: ok den wuteva
20:37:36 <pikhq> Also, it's not exceptionally awkward. ;)
20:37:43 <ehird> hahahaha ur a nerd
20:37:47 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I don't.
20:37:57 <AnMaster> ehird, as do several other in here.
20:38:06 <pikhq> ehird: There's a difference between informal English and sounding stupid.
20:38:07 <ehird> You're imagining things
20:39:32 <AnMaster> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/and does say *some* consider it incorrect but also notes that "[...], but use of the word in this way is very common. The practice will be found in literature from Anglo-Saxon times onwards, especially as an aid to continuity in narrative and dialogue. The OED provides examples from the 9th century to the 19th century, including one from Shakespeare’s King John: [...]"
20:40:07 <ehird> it's terribly annoying
20:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what? That Shakespeare used it too?
20:40:32 <AnMaster> yeah I guess you consider Shakespeare annoying
20:41:06 <pikhq> Shakespeare did a lot of things. ;)
20:41:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, because one instance of an annoying phrase by someone well-known for brutally raping the English language to pieces on a regular basis, means that I despise the man and all his works.
20:41:40 <ehird> Clearly, too; but obviously celarly is *informally valid*.
20:41:59 * pikhq beats ehird for not knowing what informal English is.
20:42:23 <ehird> yeh ok! pikhq,,,,,
20:43:06 <pikhq> Þou art like unto an AOLer.
20:45:23 <AnMaster> anyway, as far as I can tell from wp it seems it is valid in informal English. And for special effects.
20:45:26 <Asztal> I hope you're not one of the "don't end sentences with prepositions" people ;)
20:45:30 <AnMaster> And no, I'm not likely to stop with it.
20:45:46 <AnMaster> Asztal, example of such? I can't think of one.
20:46:51 <Asztal> AnMaster: This is the type of sentence about which I was speaking
20:47:04 <AnMaster> Asztal, seems reasonable enough.
20:47:05 <Asztal> vs. "... which I was speaking about"
20:47:22 <AnMaster> Asztal, the latter seems more natural enough.
21:02:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:09:09 -!- fernando has joined.
21:09:33 -!- fernando has changed nick to Guest68422.
21:09:48 <Guest68422> im logged as spike form another computer, just if anybody wonders...
21:10:05 <oerjan> ah the same one, i'm reading the logs
21:10:12 <oerjan> seems my nick was mentioned
21:10:40 <Guest68422> yes, we were talking about Turing-completness of Brainfuck
21:11:03 <Guest68422> i would like to know if anybody has ever tried whitespace language...
21:11:35 <Guest68422> im trying to do a very simple thing, but i dont really understand some of the basics of the language
21:11:36 <oerjan> there was some discussion of "IO-completeness" on the wiki at some point, it's important for quines e.g. to be able to output in the same alphabet as the code is written in
21:12:10 * oerjan hasn't looked very much at Whitespace
21:12:32 <oerjan> i think /// is output-complete, for example, although it has no input
21:13:12 <oerjan> (see my quine at http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
21:13:23 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
21:13:34 <EgoBot> /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\//
21:13:57 <oerjan> that's just the beginning of the quine though, it's 1496 characters iirc
21:14:38 <oerjan> the /// can use other character than / and \ btw, i just found it interesting to show that those are enough for TC and quines
21:15:20 <oerjan> it's a very simple self-modifying substitution language
21:15:54 <oerjan> look at the beginning of the program. if it doesn't start with / or \, print the first character and continue with the rest
21:16:06 <oerjan> if it starts with \, print the character after that
21:16:42 <oerjan> if it starts with /, that is a substitution command
21:16:53 <oerjan> of the form /source/replacement/
21:17:17 <oerjan> where source and replacement can contain anything but / and \, or anything _escaped_ with \
21:17:47 <oerjan> it's just the sed/vi/perl substitution command reduced to the bare minimum
21:18:33 <oerjan> then, the first instance of source (escaping removed) in the rest is replaced by the replacement (also unescaped), repeat until source is nowhere to be seen
21:19:01 <oerjan> after that, continue interpreting whatever the rest has turned into
21:19:29 <oerjan> !slashes /test/Hello, /testworld!
21:20:09 <tetha> !slashes /test2/test//test2/Hello, /testworld!
21:20:12 <AnMaster> !slashes This is a much shorter quine (but could be even shorter).
21:20:13 <EgoBot> This is a much shorter quine (but could be even shorter).
21:20:26 <AnMaster> that *might* have been a quine
21:20:53 <oerjan> Guest68422: AnMaster keeps teasing me whenever i link to my quine, because in /// every program _not_ containing / or \ is _trivially_ a quine
21:21:31 <pikhq> You wrote a non-trivial quine.
21:21:42 <pikhq> Non-trivial quines are, of course, the more interesting ones.
21:21:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I'm impressed by that
21:21:58 <oerjan> but as soon as you have one of those characters, you need to use similar self-replication methods to in other languages
21:22:10 <AnMaster> but I think it is important to mention that trivial quines also exist in ///
21:22:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, is slashes output complete you said?
21:22:54 <tetha> I think it is more interesting to note if there is no null-quine in a language
21:22:55 <oerjan> Guest68422: btw we use s/source/replacement/ in this channel for typo corrections, that is what made kerlo_ invent /// in the first place i think
21:23:13 <AnMaster> tetha, an empty string -> no output
21:23:26 <AnMaster> surely if you give it a file containing nothing it will produce the same
21:23:35 <AnMaster> you could redirect the empty output to a file
21:23:41 <AnMaster> then md5sum it with the original source
21:23:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: i _think_ it is output complete
21:23:52 <AnMaster> if it is same, then it is either a collision or the same
21:24:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, can it be proven at all?
21:24:13 <AnMaster> well, I guess if someone implemented bf in it
21:24:27 <tetha> AnMaster: I am not sure if that holds for each and every language possible, but for every language with a null-quine, trivial quines exist
21:24:46 <pikhq> oerjan: I could've sworn that s/foo/bar/ was ridiculously common in IRC.
21:24:59 <oerjan> pikhq: perhaps, i'm not much in other channels
21:25:02 <pikhq> Like "even Windows users that don't even know sed understand it" common.
21:25:05 <AnMaster> <tetha> I think it is more interesting to note if there is no null-quine in a language <-- ah, it was cut off
21:25:22 <AnMaster> I ended up interpreting it as "null quines doesn't exist"
21:25:53 <oerjan> my !help command never responded...
21:25:56 <AnMaster> the easiest way to make that line make sense was to drop the "if"
21:25:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:26:17 <kerlo_> What does "output complete" mean?
21:26:28 <AnMaster> <pikhq> oerjan: I could've sworn that s/foo/bar/ was ridiculously common in IRC. <-- yes it is
21:26:47 <AnMaster> like, say, #bash, but probably not #ubuntu
21:27:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Windows users* get it.
21:27:36 <ehird> oerjan: isn't slashes isomorphic to thue
21:27:38 <pikhq> Just because it's used idiomatically on IRC, not because they use sed, Perl, awk, or anything else...
21:28:23 <AnMaster> kerlo_, as in BF. You can output any string to stdout basically.
21:28:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, slashes can only output chars found in it's input however.
21:29:03 <oerjan> kerlo_: by that i mean that it can compute arbitrary output in its alphabet
21:29:25 <kerlo_> /// can easily do that.
21:29:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: true, but it's not hard to include all of Latin1
21:29:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, a bit more work for all of utf-8
21:29:48 <oerjan> kerlo_: where that is meant in a technical sense that is hard to understand
21:29:50 <AnMaster> you just need one of every byte
21:30:04 <AnMaster> for a "lookup" table of some mad sort
21:30:21 <oerjan> kerlo_: basically it came out of the discussion we had about the socalled "quineless" language someone made
21:30:29 <ehird> AnMaster: thue does that too
21:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, I don't know thue though
21:30:44 <kerlo_> ehird: it'll be isomorphic to Thue once someone finds an isomorphism.
21:30:46 <oerjan> that language disallowed printing the first character of the source code before any other
21:30:47 <ehird> oerjan: a true quineless, TC language:
21:30:51 <ehird> output is totally buffered
21:30:55 <ehird> if output==program
21:30:59 <ehird> "PINK UNICORN BUTTS~!~"
21:31:04 <ehird> otherwise output is outputted
21:31:11 <oerjan> ehird: and that violates my definition of output-completeness
21:31:44 <kerlo_> <program> ::= "R" <BF-program> | "P" anything
21:31:54 <AnMaster> isn't there some esolang that mandates the implementation to output "the empty program is not a quine" if given an empty input program
21:32:07 <kerlo_> R runs the BF program, removing all instances of R from the output. P prints the string.
21:32:18 <AnMaster> ehird, who are you replying to
21:32:28 <oerjan> ehird: thue is not self-modifying btw
21:32:28 <ehird> kerlo_: that's what the language was
21:32:38 <kerlo_> The obvious quine is bottom. The other obvious quine is Ps repeated forever.
21:32:39 <oerjan> it only modifies the initial string, not its own program
21:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't clear if it was me or kerlo_
21:32:40 <ehird> oerjan: you could just do some escaping magic
21:32:55 <ehird> oerjan: to emulate thue in ///
21:33:31 <oerjan> ehird: most likely, by choosing slightly different encodings for the program and string part
21:34:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: Homespring has "the empty program is not a quine" iirc
21:34:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah name sounds familiar
21:34:18 <ehird> Guest68422 dies in the last episode
21:34:38 <pikhq> Homespring is amazing.
21:34:51 <Guest68422> im going to die, yes, but in this episode of "Whitespace Programming"
21:34:56 <pikhq> Guest68422 is wearing a red shirt.
21:35:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Homespring ?
21:35:08 <ehird> did nobody pick up on my reference? :(
21:35:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't expect you to
21:35:26 <pikhq> ehird: I don't watch TV.
21:35:31 <AnMaster> "The name stands for Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great."
21:35:32 <kerlo_> ehird: I know that people say that so-and-so dies in the last episode.
21:35:44 <pikhq> Most of what I watch is in ~/video/
21:35:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's a program, BTW.
21:36:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, don't touch ~/video/airshows please :P
21:36:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oh, you've got ~/video/ *organised*?
21:36:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, err yeah, the implementation of Homespring would be a program
21:36:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I mean "Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great." (IIRC)
21:37:13 <pikhq> I don't recall what it does.
21:37:19 <oerjan> Guest68422: Whitespace is not really a turing tarpit though, it has too many commands
21:37:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, certainly. It is actually ~/video/<category>/<subcategory, varies, can be year, composer, whatever>/<either file, or more subtypes>
21:37:41 <bsmntbombdood> you use inotify to allow you to arbitrarily restructure your bittorrent downloads while still seedign
21:37:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: ~/video/series for me, with a few movies in ~/video/ straight.
21:37:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
21:38:00 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I mean "Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great." (IIRC) <-- that seems horrible /usr/bin/Long\ Escaped\ String
21:38:10 <pikhq> Oh, ~/video/series/season. XD
21:38:20 <oerjan> i haven't tried it really, it belongs to the category of "esoteric languages that are a thin varnish over a vanilla imperative or assembly-like language"
21:38:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, I have ~/video/incomming, which contains three files atm
21:38:26 <Guest68422> is for a paper im writing on esoteric languages
21:38:28 <ehird> Guest68422: BCT. Lambda calculus.
21:38:37 <ehird> The two eminently typical tarpits.
21:38:38 <oerjan> which are not particularly interesting for a mathematician...
21:38:38 <AnMaster> when I don't have time to move it to the right place straight away
21:38:43 <ehird> Imperative, functional.
21:38:52 <ehird> 21:38 oerjan: i haven't tried it really, it belongs to the category of "esoteric languages that are a thin varnish over a vanilla imperative or assembly-like language"
21:39:03 <Guest68422> im looking for some languages that resembles the Turing machine
21:39:10 <ehird> Guest68422: a turing machine.
21:39:15 <ehird> Also BCT, is quite turing machine-like.
21:39:17 <Guest68422> you know, like in BF where you can imagine the array as a tape
21:39:24 <pikhq> Guest68422: Turing machine, P''. (AKA Brainfuck)
21:39:32 <ehird> pikhq: yes, but BCT is more tarpitty
21:39:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's not a turing machine
21:40:05 <pikhq> No, but it's stricly equivalent.
21:40:06 <ehird> also, lambda calculus has less baggage than the traditional SKI description
21:40:16 <ehird> because SKI is usually described in terms of lambdas
21:40:19 <ehird> in terms of term rewriting,
21:40:22 <ehird> yes, SKI is a lot simpler
21:40:33 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have a dictionary? use it
21:40:43 <ehird> That relies on the LC thus is strictly more bloated than it.
21:40:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what baggage is. It is stuff you take with you when you travel.
21:40:54 <ehird> If you describe it in terms of tree rewriting, however...
21:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, but I fail to see how it applies here
21:41:04 <ehird> AnMaster: USE A FUCKING DICTIONARY!
21:41:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: BENKYOU! BENKYOU!
21:41:34 <AnMaster> ehird, there: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=baggage
21:42:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I am not tailoring my english to your inability to comprehend everything but the most literal, verbose language.
21:42:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I still fails to see how it apply.
21:42:18 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, so it has a non-literal meaning in English
21:42:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Fuck off! You can look these things up for yourself.
21:42:37 <AnMaster> I can't find any defintion of it
21:42:46 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
21:43:00 <pikhq> Hmm. Somewhere out there, there's an idiom dictionary.
21:43:02 <oerjan> Guest68422: ehird and AnMaster are the local "always quarrel, but not really _that_ harshly" duet. don't mind them. :)
21:43:17 <pikhq> Need to ask my mom for the name of it for AnMaster.
21:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, and since I'm outside and ircing from a handheld. I don't have a dict handy atm
21:43:25 <ehird> it's obviously my fault that AnMaster doesn't know english, indeed.
21:43:53 <AnMaster> Guest68422, bitwise cyclic tags.
21:43:53 <oerjan> Guest68422: most things mentioned here have a link on the esolangs wiki
21:44:04 <ehird> Guest68422: esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
21:44:22 <oerjan> Guest68422: btw the way i proved /// TC was by implementing BCT in it. it is _extremely_ simple so useful for that
21:44:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You might want to learn to type, too.
21:45:32 <oerjan> Guest68422: also try esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits
21:45:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be MUCH easier in lojban I bet :P
21:46:52 <oerjan> Guest68422: oh yeah, i was reminded of Fractran (which isn't it that list because it's not technically esoteric)
21:47:14 <oerjan> maybe it should still be in Category:Turing tarpits though
21:50:32 <Guest68422> is there any compiler for Billiard ball machine?
21:52:16 <oerjan> it seems that ihope (= kerlo) didn't find any when he made the article for it
21:52:59 <ehird> "It then becomes Turing-complete if an infinite number of balls/obstacles is allowed."
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21:53:41 <oerjan> i expect repeating is enough for such things
21:53:56 <ehird> oerjan: so basically, just replicate the playing field and deal with the edges
21:54:47 <AnMaster> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fractran_plus_plus <-- wth?
21:54:56 <ehird> what do you mean wth
21:55:14 <oerjan> Billiard ball machine seems like something that should be possible to implement in Alpaca..
21:55:22 <ehird> oerjan: that would be nice
21:55:39 <oerjan> with slightly different symbols
21:56:35 <oerjan> you need a way to distinguish ball directions...
22:00:09 <oerjan> turning it 45 degrees and using ><^v for example
22:00:36 <AnMaster> how does the version documented there decide that direction issue you mention, in the input file
22:01:06 <AnMaster> how can it be TC with infinite gird? Aren't you still limited to the same number of balls?
22:01:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's really just a sketch of a language
22:01:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: infinite number of balls too, i assume
22:01:34 <AnMaster> how is it proven to be TC then
22:01:43 <AnMaster> "Categories: Languages | Turing tarpits | No IO | Two-dimensional languages | Low-level | Reversible computing"
22:01:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: i would imagine you could make a turing tape
22:02:00 <oerjan> with some complicated gates and a long, broad strip
22:02:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure, but someone put it in "turing tarpits"
22:02:17 <AnMaster> which doesn't seem like correct if it isn't known to be TC
22:02:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: let's ask kerlo
22:02:30 <oerjan> kerlo_: where did you hear that Billiard Ball Machine is TC?
22:02:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, it says ihope edited it?
22:03:00 <AnMaster> I don't remember. ihope changes nick so often
22:03:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: just whois him, it's still his account name
22:03:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't understand the context of: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Billiard_ball_machine
22:04:24 <oerjan> for that, i suggest asking MizardX :D
22:04:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, um he isn't logged in. "* [oerjan] is signed on as account oerjan" <-- that is account name "* [kerlo_] (n=ihope@s1.normish.org): ihope" <-- the first is the ident, the second is the "real name" or "gecos", there are several names for it. But not account name.
22:05:29 <AnMaster> "In bra-ket notation, these gates can be expressed as follows:" <-- is that typo of "bracket" intentional?
22:05:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: i recall it was last time i whois'ed him
22:05:38 <AnMaster> * [kerlo_] (n=ihope@s1.normish.org): ihope
22:05:39 <AnMaster> * [kerlo_] irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/
22:05:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, standard quantum mechanics terminology
22:06:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, ok, Assume I know almost nothing about that
22:06:23 <AnMaster> and how are billiard related to quantum mechanics?
22:06:26 <Spike_> i really liked the idea of reMorse2
22:06:32 <Spike_> is there any compiler?
22:06:38 <oerjan> <x|y> is the inner product of two state vectors in quantum mech.
22:06:50 <Spike_> the link form the documentation is broken...
22:07:11 <oerjan> physicists separate those into <x| |y> which are called bra and ket part respectively
22:07:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, I did realise that since "Feynman gate" _was_ mentioned, quantum mechanics were involved somehow
22:07:29 <kerlo_> An infinite BBM with an infinite number of balls would be TC.
22:07:35 <oerjan> then |y> is a vector and <x| is a dual vector
22:07:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, I just still have no clue why billiard balls have anything to do with quantum mechanics.
22:08:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's just a suggested extension, like most in that last section
22:08:22 <kerlo_> AnMaster: what would be much easier in Lojban, you bet?
22:08:31 <oerjan> if i understand correctly
22:08:37 <kerlo_> AnMaster: logic + infinite memory = Turing-complete.
22:08:43 <AnMaster> kerlo_, I forgot what it was about.
22:09:28 <AnMaster> kerlo_, I'm not sure that statement would hold up as a formal proof. I could be wrong though.
22:09:49 <oerjan> kerlo_: it's plausible, but not a proof
22:12:02 <kerlo_> Okay, then. Make a one-dimensional CA out of it.
22:12:27 <oerjan> hm since it's reversible tc would have to be done through a reversible turing machine
22:12:43 <ehird> AnMaster: .........
22:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I *did* check http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CA first
22:13:57 <kerlo_> Have an infinite field of balls coming in on side. Junk information can be thrown out the other side.
22:14:48 <AnMaster> ah, you must mean cellular automaton
22:16:44 <oerjan> Spike_: ouch, that geocities page isn't even on Wayback Machine
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22:17:48 <oerjan> kerlo_: i guess that's essentially how a reversible turing machine simulates an ordinary one anyhow :D
22:20:22 * oerjan makes a redirect for CA
22:22:30 <oerjan> kerlo_: more to the point, did you get the idea for Billiard Ball Machine from anywhere else in particular?
22:22:47 <oerjan> in case there are relevant links
22:24:15 <ehird> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer
22:28:59 * oerjan notes the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_computing
22:29:03 <kerlo_> Something like that link.
22:30:17 <ehird> *Main> last (fractran [13/21,385/13,1/7,3/11,7/2,1/3] ((2^7)*(3^4))) == 5^(7*4)
22:32:03 <AnMaster> how do you implement a non-reversible algorithm in them
22:32:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have to assume it is possible, since otherwise they wouldn't be TC
22:33:16 <oerjan> you can compute y += f(x) or y ^= f(x), those are reversible operations even if f isn't
22:33:37 <ehird> a reversible TM is just one that never throws away data
22:33:40 <ehird> so you could encrypt S
22:33:44 <ehird> but you'd have to keep
22:33:49 <oerjan> one trick i recall from reading about a reversible computer is:
22:34:24 <oerjan> (1) calculate f(x) using whatever temporary space you need
22:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so better not implement something that could be DDoSed in such a TM then :P
22:34:55 <oerjan> (2) copy the answer to the desired storage place (with adding or xoring, say)
22:35:07 <oerjan> (3) _uncalculate_ f(x) to reclaim the temporary space
22:35:27 <oerjan> i.e. (3) is just (1) in reverse
22:36:09 <oerjan> otoh reclaiming memory is probably not theoretically necessary, just ignore it
22:36:23 <oerjan> but it's important for a practical reversible computer
22:36:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, and reversible TMs aren't practical I guess?
22:36:48 <oerjan> well TMs aren't really
22:37:06 <oerjan> they do have quadratic overhead compared to a pointer architecture...
22:37:23 <AnMaster> but a reversible pointer architecture?
22:37:56 <oerjan> sure, the example was fairly ordinary machine code, except nearly every instruction was reversible
22:38:20 <oerjan> there was also a "bit bucket" operation for really throwing away data, iirc
22:38:41 <oerjan> and it worked by physically throwing the data out from the reversible chip :D
22:39:37 <oerjan> it was a couple years ago i read it
22:39:53 <AnMaster> how did it "physically throw"?
22:40:05 <AnMaster> as in, a mechanical arm throwing away the memory chip?
22:41:24 <oerjan> i mean as in it transferred the bit out of the reversible part of the chip into a special area, i think
22:42:02 <oerjan> hey there's a revcomp wiki
22:42:47 <oerjan> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing but that's not where i read those things)
22:45:34 <oerjan> ah there it was i think
22:48:15 <oerjan> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.6076
22:48:44 <oerjan> except the bit bucket ("bit erasure") part may have been just a theoretical discussion
22:49:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, how does one read that
22:49:53 <AnMaster> I can't find the link the the actual thing
22:50:05 <oerjan> there's a pdf cache link in the upper right
22:50:08 <AnMaster> http://www.ai.mit.edu/~cvieri/thesis.ps is a 404
22:50:48 <oerjan> i use that anyway since i don't have ps setup on this computer
22:51:06 <oerjan> (there's also ps cache for those who want it)
22:51:27 <AnMaster> I would use it, except the pdf renders better
22:51:32 <oerjan> very nice of citeseer to do that
22:52:35 <oerjan> that article looks like it's scanned in, anyway
22:54:16 <ehird> just ps→pdf conversion
22:54:53 <ehird> oerjan: do you think that this is a good format for fractran programs: "p=324234; 31/21, 385/13, "1/7, 3/11, 7/2, 1/3"
22:55:00 <ehird> or do you think p should be user-specifiable?
22:55:28 <oerjan> user-specifiable, that's the only input after all
22:55:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I hink you got the quotes wrong
22:55:42 <ehird> AnMaster: no I didn't
22:55:47 <ehird> oerjan: right, but some programs may only work with one value
22:55:51 <AnMaster> "p=324234; 31/21, 385/13, "1/7, 3/11, 7/2, 1/3" <-- really?
22:55:53 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
22:55:56 <AnMaster> so what does the middle one mean
22:55:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, fine.
22:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, then don't say you didn't without checking...
22:56:48 <oerjan> ehird: hm right, both then
22:59:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, it mentions billiard ball model btw
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23:06:55 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
23:07:10 <GregorR-L> Somebody here will appreciate this (albeit unrelated to #esoteric ): http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/
23:09:05 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:09:34 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: <ehird> i'm grepping myself but slow | IT BUGLES MY MIND | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:14:46 <oerjan> This is obviously some strange usage of the word "masterpiece" that I hadn't previously been aware of.
23:15:05 <GregorR-L> It's a usage that only Eric, Michael, Kevin, Kevin and I use.
23:15:13 <GregorR-L> (Where those names are friends of mine and their siblings)
23:16:03 <oerjan> Mind if we call you "Kevin" to keep it clear?
23:16:37 <GregorR-L> Luckily Kevin and Kevin are not siblings :P
23:18:00 <pikhq> However, Kevin is his own grandpa.
23:18:14 <AnMaster> oerjan/Eric, don't be daft. We should call him Eric.
23:19:15 <oerjan> as long as he's not idle
23:21:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is "Length of mandatory rest, in measures:"
23:21:55 <AnMaster> does it say that there should be at least that many measures that are rests?
23:22:06 <ehird> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/?mpid=Side-to-side+Prickly+Toccata this is good
23:22:08 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It's more of a comment than anything else, but yeah.
23:22:36 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Good keyword, I'll add that :P
23:22:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, "Name/ID (blank for random):" <-- what sort of stuff do you get for random
23:23:08 <GregorR-L> Names like Side-to-side Prickly Toccata
23:23:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, Would be useful to be able to specify part of the name
23:23:27 -!- Corun has joined.
23:23:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, such as saying it should be an "air" or whatever
23:23:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, but getting random for the full name
23:24:05 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It chooses the music part of the name based on the time signature, but yeah, I guess that'd be somethingish *shrugs*
23:24:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, consider it a feature request
23:24:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, is time signature enforced?
23:24:47 <AnMaster> "Successfully created Masterpiece Now-and-then Political Dance" <-- interesting
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23:25:08 <AnMaster> Style: Melody, harmony and flourish (3 tracks)
23:25:16 <AnMaster> or is it supposed to allow that
23:25:24 <GregorR-L> The style is just another comment.
23:25:49 <GregorR-L> "style" and "measures rest" are just suggestions to the composer, so they don't affect anything else.
23:26:08 <AnMaster> sadly I'm no good at composing. So I have to skip actually composing part of it
23:26:30 <ehird> oerjan: let's build a DOMINO COMPUTER.
23:26:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:26:37 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Leaving the "nothing" part :P
23:26:40 <AnMaster> btw, I will be away and unreachable from the 8th to the 13th (partly inclusive)
23:27:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I will be sure to show you the photos :P
23:27:06 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
23:27:16 <AnMaster> ehird, going to guided tour at Esrange (they launch rockets there)
23:27:49 <Spike_> i wonder if anybody understands this list of operatos in ReMorese... :
23:27:55 <Spike_> The (circular) List of Operations and their Opposites
23:27:55 <Spike_> operations|opposites|comments
23:27:55 <Spike_> ----------+---------+--------
23:27:55 <Spike_> push |pop |into/outof datum
23:27:55 <Spike_> output chr|input chr|always ASCII (use stack)
23:27:56 <Spike_> bit sort |tros tib |bit sort (stacktop) normal/reverse
23:27:58 <Spike_> select bit|filt bit |stacktop=stacktop AND YES/NOT funky
23:28:00 <Spike_> rot left |rot right|rotate funky (bitwise)
23:28:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you might want to check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esrange
23:28:02 <Spike_> increase |decrease |(datum) by value in funky reg
23:28:04 <Spike_> ptr forth |ptr back |by value in funky reg
23:28:06 <Spike_> jmp forth |jmp back |by top value on stack
23:28:21 <ehird> AnMaster: what does it matter when nobody is talking?
23:28:27 <ehird> it's only annoying if the channel is activ
23:28:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you consider me "nobody"=
23:28:47 <ehird> Spike_: there's no ReMorese page on the wiki
23:29:01 <ehird> Spike_: oh, http://esolangs.org/wiki/ReMorse?
23:29:13 <Spike_> i understand what push, output and increase does
23:29:22 <ehird> Spike_: look on the wiki page
23:29:25 <ehird> it has longtext descriptions
23:29:49 <ehird> oerjan: I'm now interested in reversible turing tarpits.
23:29:51 <ehird> Guess I have to write one!
23:30:37 <Spike_> what im not really getting is why remorse2 uses "fake push"
23:31:26 <ehird> Spike_: did you say you're writing a paper on esolangs?
23:31:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, who wrote that first music piece
23:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Plural who?
23:32:33 <ehird> I'm not sure that works.
23:32:53 <GregorR-L> (And it'd better only be one person who says it doesn't! ;) )
23:33:01 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... so what do you say if you mean "who" -> group of people
23:33:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not sure
23:33:17 <ehird> your sentence is just odd :P
23:33:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was just "who"
23:33:19 <ehird> "If the average American watches TV for about 2 hours a day"
23:33:24 <oerjan> ehird: i feel that project is destined to fall
23:33:34 <ehird> oerjan: har har har
23:33:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I would have guessed a bit more
23:34:38 <ehird> AnMaster: What about it?
23:34:53 <ehird> (If we say 7 days a week instead of 5, it's 5)
23:35:00 <AnMaster> lets say, 8 hours of sleep, minimum.
23:35:04 <oerjan> ehird: check out Kayak
23:35:08 <Spike_> ehird yes, thats what im doing
23:35:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Your issue is assuming any sort of sanity beyond mindless TV-watching in the average American mind.
23:35:24 <AnMaster> but you really can't manage with less in the long run
23:35:28 <ehird> Spike_: high school or university?
23:35:33 <AnMaster> then work takes maybe 8 hours a day
23:35:48 <Spike_> it is for a professor at my university
23:36:09 <AnMaster> for TV AND traveling to work AND eating
23:36:12 <ehird> AnMaster: You do know that the average american is a part time schmuck, right?
23:36:29 <ehird> Spike_: algorhythmic is the study of algorithms for RHYTHM.
23:36:34 <ehird> No but seriously, I think you mean algorithms :)
23:36:40 <Spike_> and i think this topic is great for comparing turing machines with really simple languages
23:36:40 <AnMaster> Schmuck (pejorative), an insulting term for a stupid person or dimwitted fool or an unwanted guest
23:36:54 <ehird> Spike_: Yeah, it is
23:37:02 <AnMaster> "Schmuck is a surname. Of German origin, it means jewel or jewelry."
23:37:22 <ehird> Spike_: If you want a real TM, our resident ais523 proved this turing machine turing complete: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
23:37:27 <ehird> so it's the smallest possible TC TM
23:37:35 <Spike_> but before writing, i need to understand myself how this things work... :D
23:37:36 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you can't manage 8 hours TV
23:37:56 <ehird> AnMaster: remember, this is for 5-days-a-week
23:38:00 <AnMaster> spread over 7 days instead so you get 5 then it works
23:38:02 <ehird> for 7 days a week it comes to 5 hours
23:38:06 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know what part-time means?
23:38:10 <ehird> it means that work=8hrs is incorrect.
23:38:29 <Spike_> did he won the $25.000?
23:38:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you mean "part time schmuck" => "part time (an insulting term for a stupid person or dimwitted fool or an unwanted guest)"
23:38:44 <ehird> Spike_: yes (although in the UK and US, you just said $25 :-P)
23:39:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it was possible to interpret it that way
23:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not sure it's possible to change your schmuckiness :)
23:39:26 <AnMaster> ehird, It is due to language barrier.
23:39:48 <ehird> Spike_: yeah, but he's a uni student; I think he's burned it off on mostly living expenses by now
23:39:58 <GregorR-L> There is a Swedish person sitting right next to me who I'm sure would have no problem understanding that. Language barrier shmanguage barrier :P
23:40:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: AnMaster complained at me for defending someone who ran into a language barrier in here i while ago
23:40:31 <AnMaster> ehird, plus I have always been what we in Swedish call "en ensamvarg", an idiom meaning rougly someone who prefers to be alone. For example, rather reading a book alone at home, than going to a party
23:40:53 <Spike_> one language barrier question: what does "Bit sort the stack byte in place" means?
23:41:04 <AnMaster> ehird, not exactly, different connotations
23:41:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:41:17 <GregorR-L> Spike_: I, as a native speaker of English, have not a fekking clue.
23:41:18 <ehird> Spike_: a byte is made up of N bits - usually 32 or 64
23:41:27 <ehird> Spike_: but let's say, oh, 10 for demonstration
23:41:38 <ehird> Spike_: well, 0101010101 -> 0000011111 would be that
23:41:40 <ehird> "sorting the bits"
23:41:41 <AnMaster> ehird, this concept doesn't imply nerdiness. It could imply shyness too. But it doesn't require that either
23:41:42 <ehird> but I doubt it's that
23:41:46 <ehird> so I have no clue :)
23:41:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: That was my first though, but that seems so stupid :P
23:42:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: As a "random crazy operation", though, it could work.
23:42:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: It... counts the number of 1s, I think.
23:42:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> Spike_: a byte is made up of N bits - usually 32 or 64 <-- *blink*
23:42:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: yep, it does
23:43:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: it results in 2**count_of_ones - 1
23:43:24 <Spike_> 8, 16, 32, whatever... why ReMorse language needs such operation for?
23:43:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, again not same. En "eremit" (The Swedish term), is someone living way out in the forest or such in a hut. While a "ensamvarg" may live in society, just not take active part of the social aspects.
23:43:57 <ehird> AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
23:44:01 <ehird> That was a gale-force wind.
23:44:04 <ehird> Going over your head.
23:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm looking for a good translation
23:44:21 <AnMaster> thus I choose to ignore the joke aspect of it
23:44:32 <oerjan> literally it means "lonesome wolf"
23:44:41 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sure.
23:45:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, you have it in Norwegian btw?
23:45:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually did, the joke part was irrelevant to this convo
23:45:37 <oerjan> not in one word anyhow...
23:45:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: stop being irrelevant, you uncouth person!
23:46:16 <oerjan> (by not sure, i mean the term "ensom ulv" is used, but i'm not sure it means exactly the same)
23:46:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, so what does it mean then
23:46:43 <oerjan> the norwegian would be "enstøing"
23:46:58 <AnMaster> wth is "Tagalog". Saw it in an interwiki link...
23:47:17 <ehird> The Tagalog language, the most widely spoken of the Philippine languages.
23:47:19 <ehird> The Tagalog people, the second-largest Filipino ethnic group.
23:47:20 <ehird> The Tagalog script, the ancient writing system of the Tagalog people.
23:47:27 <ehird> AnMaster: I wish you would buy a mouse so you can CLICK LINKS AND FIND OUT.
23:47:30 <AnMaster> it sounds like a constructed one
23:47:46 <AnMaster> ehird, interwiki link... as in interwiki language one
23:47:52 <AnMaster> I can't read the page I got by clicking
23:47:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Copy, paste, google.
23:48:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: languages around there sometimes do, it's a malayo-polynesian thing
23:48:06 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But that != clicking
23:48:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Click, drag, release, middle click, click search.
23:48:29 <oerjan> CV syllable structure. japanese too...
23:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, "click, drag" -> dragging link pastes the url of the link into the google search box
23:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Click, drag to select.
23:49:31 * AnMaster switches to using dvtm with emacs w3m-mode just to annoy ehird
23:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, remember that "Zaba" I mentioned?
23:50:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't tell me.
23:50:14 <ehird> He switched to dvtm.
23:50:18 <AnMaster> When I told him about dvtm he said he would use it if he needed terminal multiplexing
23:50:24 <AnMaster> ehird, he said he didn't though
23:50:31 <AnMaster> that 6 vts were more than enough
23:50:37 <ehird> Anyone want to go kill him? pikhq?
23:50:42 <ehird> It's for justice, and humanity.
23:51:17 <AnMaster> ehird, whatever you do, don't tell zzo about dvtm
23:51:52 <AnMaster> ehird, hm "screen refresh on new output from program should be an option"
23:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: he'd write his own virtual terminal layer
23:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea for other options he would add?
23:53:52 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
23:54:01 <ehird> AnMaster: change the source to zzodvtm.
23:54:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: sv:enstöring/ensamvarg links to en:loner (also there was a tagalog link, were you at the same page? :D)
23:54:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes. But notice what it says about the difference between those two Swedish words
23:55:43 <AnMaster> "The modern term "loner" is usually used with a negative connotation" <-- "ensamvarg" doesn't in Swedish. "enstöring" does however.
23:55:55 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_wolf_(trait)
23:56:27 <AnMaster> yes in Swedish it is used in a non-literal meaning
23:56:41 <AnMaster> as is described further down there