00:00:13 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Perceptively+Chilly+Sonata
00:00:20 <GregorR> Happened to get percussion in there :P
00:00:29 <GregorR> As well as much weirdness :P
00:00:30 <ehird> GregorR: But like, properly made percussion.
00:02:33 <oerjan> fizzie: i'll put a link to http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt in EsoInterpreters for befunge -> bf/underload
00:02:34 <fungot> oerjan: yeah i am a hillary clinton looks more like her old hair color better her album let go is so scary. send this over to 5 videos and then i jizzed. in other way like bullet time and you can slide.
00:03:56 <ehird> GarageBand forgot my input.
00:04:37 <oerjan> anyone know any other esointerpreters than fungot and mine recently?
00:04:37 <fungot> oerjan: yeah you sure have a ' slang term', everything you wrote in your brain, the computer has the people who do you mean, well, except this is the lyrics? stfu yourself slam-mules-ass.
00:04:54 <oerjan> (esointerpreter = esolang in esolang)
00:07:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
00:07:04 <ehird> GregorR: Make it work ok
00:08:34 <ehird> GregorR: JUST MAKE MY BASTARD KEYSTUDIO 49I/MT-32 COMBINATION WORK ;_;
00:12:42 <ehird> GregorR: It isn't actually playing thru the mt-32.
00:14:09 <ehird> GregorR: "1) MIDI coming from the computer via USB is sent to the external MIDI Out port"
00:14:14 <ehird> Right, that is obviously what I wa— wait.
00:14:19 <ehird> It must be the mt-32, bec—
00:20:58 <ehird> GregorR: ............ahahahaha
00:21:09 <ehird> GregorR: The MIDI cable isn't connected to the MT-32; I disconnected it while testing stuff.
00:21:40 <ehird> Of course, that hasn't fixed the problem or anything. /sigh
00:36:53 <ehird> GregorR: YOU DID THIS TO ME
00:38:18 <ehird> GregorR: I'm <--> close to throwing this out of the window.
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00:50:58 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/xdvbfy/TestilyIllustriousFugue.mid // ooohh, good!
00:52:53 <ehird> GregorR: Getting there w/ mt-32
00:54:41 <ehird> GregorR: that one is ok
00:55:06 <GregorR> It's dull, but that's to be expected.
01:04:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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01:10:13 <ehird> GregorR: what's the bpm of gen-1?
01:11:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:11:43 <ehird> GregorR: 'tis important!
01:11:58 <ehird> GregorR: i gots it working you see
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01:14:44 <ehird> GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR:
01:20:30 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:20:31 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:20:31 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:20:58 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S )S:^):^
01:20:59 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S ( ...too much output!
01:20:59 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:05 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S )S:^):^
01:21:05 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (Greg ...too much output!
01:21:06 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:08 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S )S:^):^
01:21:08 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S ...too much output!
01:21:09 <EgoBot> GregorR: Attempt to execute unknown command 32
01:21:22 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S()!)S:^):^
01:21:22 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:22 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:30 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S())S:^):^
01:21:30 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(Greg ...too much output!
01:21:31 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:34 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:34 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:21:35 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:36 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:37 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(Gregor ...too much output!
01:21:37 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:38 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:39 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(Gregor ...too much output!
01:21:39 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:41 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:41 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:21:42 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:43 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:44 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:44 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:46 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:46 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:47 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:48 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:49 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(Greg ...too much output!
01:21:49 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:51 <ehird> WORK YOU FUCK BUTTS
01:21:53 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:53 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:53 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:55 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:57 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!( ...too much output!
01:21:57 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:22:00 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
01:22:07 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:22:07 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:22:07 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:22:09 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:22:09 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(Greg ...too much output!
01:22:10 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:22:11 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:22:11 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:22:11 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:23:28 <oerjan> hm thutubot was nicer, it cut off only at a complete S i think
01:23:55 <ehird> GregorR: Nope, that's too sloooow.
01:24:03 <ehird> I know because I tried.
01:24:10 <ehird> GregorR: Could you just look at the file kplz? :P
01:25:25 <ehird> GregorR: Right. Although the MT-32's Taiko sound isn't very crunchy :P
01:26:13 <GregorR> It's unspecified in the file.
01:26:45 <oerjan> !underload ((0123456789)S:^):^
01:26:49 <ehird> GregorR: Maybe GarageBand lost data in the import of the midi.
01:27:05 <oerjan> ^ul ((0123456789)S:^):^
01:27:05 <fungot> 012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123 ...too much output!
01:27:08 <ehird> GregorR: I had tempo set to 40bpm XD
01:27:27 <ehird> GregorR: WOW, set gen-1 to grand piano
01:27:36 <ehird> GregorR: It sounds amazing
01:27:47 <ehird> GregorR: What key's it in? Or does midi not have that
01:27:55 <GregorR> ehird: MIDI has that, it's in C minor.
01:28:34 <ehird> GregorR: Set it to C major before playing it as piano :P
01:29:27 <ehird> GregorR: because I had it as that, and it sounds great like that
01:29:38 <oerjan> (!underload ) takes 11, leaving 313 which looks suspiciously prime
01:29:59 <GregorR> Your MIDI thing will transpose minor into major? >_O
01:30:08 <GregorR> OH, no, it's just not annotated as minor in the MIDI file :P
01:30:10 <ehird> GregorR: No. I mean in GarageBand
01:30:15 <GregorR> Because autocomposer doesn't write that out :P
01:30:20 <ehird> GregorR: But it is C minor, right?
01:30:37 <oerjan> (also donald's car plate, fwiw)
01:30:46 <ehird> GregorR: Okay. Now, will you fix the fact that it suddenly ISN'T WORKING?
01:31:42 <oerjan> (Gregor: )S is also 11 long
01:33:19 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload ( )!)S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:33:20 <fungot> !underload ( )!(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(Gregor ...too much output!
01:33:20 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:34:11 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload ()!)S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:34:12 <fungot> !underload ()!(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:34:12 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:34:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:36:48 <oerjan> the darn bot isn't consistent about where it cuts off :(
01:37:05 <Sgeo> "Not every player is allowed to program in MOO, including (at the moment,
01:37:05 <Sgeo> anyway) you. "
01:39:04 <oerjan> it won't matter because of the illegal instruction :(
01:40:03 <EgoBot> abcAttempt to execute unknown command 46
01:40:21 <ehird> GregorR: I'll try tomorrow
01:40:57 <ehird> GregorR: btw i blame you for the cash it'll cost me to get a wearable computer
01:41:06 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload ((GregorR: )S))S((:S)S:^):^
01:41:06 <fungot> !underload ((GregorR: )S):S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S: ...too much output!
01:41:07 <EgoBot> (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )
01:41:57 <ehird> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: ))S
01:41:58 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )
01:42:01 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: )))S((:S)S:^):^
01:42:05 <ehird> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: ))S((S)S:^):^
01:42:05 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ...too much output!
01:42:05 <EgoBot> GregorR: Error: Stack underflow in S
01:42:09 <ehird> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: ))S((:S)S:^):^
01:42:10 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: ):S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S ...too much output!
01:42:11 <EgoBot> GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: Grego
01:42:18 <ehird> oerjan: You may call me "awesome".
01:43:57 * oerjan sees it's wikipedia time
01:44:04 <warrie> Hey, I just realized that I do have computers capable of playing MIDI files.
01:44:16 <warrie> So I just need to find GregorR's link to his thing that sucks.
01:45:51 <ehird> GregorR: http://wearcomp.wikia.com/wiki/Myvu_Crystal_%2B_Pandora
01:45:54 <ehird> why would that cost $700?
01:46:27 <ehird> GregorR: also, in the myvu crystal, what is the actual scren?
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01:56:46 <ehird> GregorR: also, how are the kb and mouse mounted in your rig?
02:01:32 <warrie> So, I'm playing GregorR's generated melody thing.
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02:02:50 <ehird> warrie: play some of the others we uploaded
02:02:54 <ehird> there are multiple ones
02:03:28 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
02:03:36 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
02:04:56 <warrie> Do you have any multi-harmonies done?
02:05:57 <ehird> Grep the logs for "filebin".
02:08:28 * warrie listens to a couple minutes, then gets bored and listens to "Pull Me Under".
02:08:43 <ehird> warrie: That song is terrible.
02:10:00 <warrie> I'm guessing you're not trying to accomplish anything by saying so.
02:10:40 <warrie> Would it be terrible without the lyrics?
02:11:11 <warrie> Would it be terrible if it were only the first ten seconds?
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03:38:07 <psygnisfive> some guy on LtU wrote a forum post about the idea of "gestures"
03:38:34 <psygnisfive> which from what i gather is a way of generating code by which instead of building code out of concrete syntax
03:38:36 <oerjan> hm sounds vaguely known
03:39:07 <psygnisfive> scheme is abstract syntax, essentially. so while scheme is coded in abstract syntax
03:39:23 <psygnisfive> the idea of gestures is you dont code in abstract syntax, you generate your abstract syntax via "gestures"
03:39:42 <psygnisfive> which take certain kernel expresses or statements and combine
03:39:59 <psygnisfive> the example he gives is, for instance, using concrete syntax to ease the example
03:40:56 <psygnisfive> you might have the kernel c code int main(){ return 0; }, and printf(); and "Hello, World!"
03:41:49 <psygnisfive> so you first combine printf(); with "Hello, World!" to derive printf("Hello, World!");, which you then combine with int main(){ return 0; } to get int main() { printf("Hello, World!"); return 0; }
03:42:24 <psygnisfive> im not entirely sure how this would work abstractly, but i can imagine that, for instance, with concrete syntax, you might have kernel items with replacement spots in them
03:43:19 <psygnisfive> so that "Hello, World!" -> printf(@); == printf("Hello, World!");
03:44:26 <psygnisfive> int main(){ @1 return @2; } :: @1 -> __ @1, @2 -> __
03:45:21 <psygnisfive> so that printf("Hello, World!") -> @1 int main(){ @1 return @2; } == int main(){ printf("Hello, World!"); @1 return @2; }
03:52:03 <psygnisfive> actually i have to say, this is rather similar to chomsky's early work on the syntax of natural language
03:52:48 <psygnisfive> whereby the language was presumed to consist of two kinds of rules, the first being a set of context free rules that generated "annotated strings"/trees
03:53:13 <psygnisfive> producing a finite set of what were called "kernel" sentences
03:53:38 <psygnisfive> and the second being a set of unrestricted rules that would either take a single sentence (kernel or otherwise) and derive a new sentence from it
03:53:56 <psygnisfive> or which would take two kernel sentences and combine them somehow (which is how recursive structures were achieved)
03:54:28 <psygnisfive> the latter kind of rule called a transformation
03:54:36 <psygnisfive> these "gestures" seem very much like transformations
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03:55:44 <psygnisfive> itd be interesting to try and build a language that works like this, manipulating abstract syntax trees
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03:57:41 <psygnisfive> and then to have AST structures that perform these operations maybe...
04:01:35 <psygnisfive> the term we use today is "developmentally disabled"
04:05:45 <psygnisfive> mostly because the retarded cant parse that many syllables Xb
04:13:30 <oerjan> i am not re... re... what you said!
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04:29:59 <warrie> de ve lop ment al ly dis a bled?
04:30:46 <oerjan> do not bleed on rug, please
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05:32:42 <GregorR> Laaaaawl, I just saw a commercial for the church of scientology.
05:32:52 <GregorR> Let me paraphrase it for you: "Are you afraid of death? Scientology!"
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06:04:41 <iEhird> solution: get up, irc on iPhone
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06:07:33 <lifthrasiir> ooooh, now my malbolge interpreter in migol runs 99 bottles of beer program in malbolge, in the original (slow) interpreter. :p
06:08:11 <lifthrasiir> it took one to ten seconds for printing each character, but works!
06:17:17 <Sgeo> Some idiot customer wants my source code so her boyfriend can add a menu
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06:21:46 <lament> someone said something about op powers
06:28:08 <GregorR> I think people were just worrying about this whole "nicks and channels expiring" stuff.
06:31:02 <GregorR> They were afraid that everybody with power in #esoteric would disappear :P
06:31:05 <lament> hm, fizzie is channel successor? I was sure it was me
06:31:23 <GregorR> (I actually would've guessed you too)
06:33:55 <lament> me, andreou, and #esoteric all got registered on the same day
06:35:02 <GregorR> Surely #esoteric existed in some sense before then?
06:35:38 <lament> where do you get that date from?
06:35:48 <lament> /msg chanserv info #esoteric
06:36:11 <GregorR> That's when I was registered :P
06:36:20 <GregorR> I was just surprised that it was closer than I anticipated.
06:36:34 <lament> before that, there was just the esolang mailing list
06:37:27 <lament> then someone (andreou?) suggested to create an irc channel and i suggested to put it on freenode, so i take full credit :D
06:37:54 <lament> ...for us getting stuck with this horrible evil network!!!!
06:38:24 <warrie> Everything is on freenode, though.
06:38:59 <Sgeo> ♫Just bend over, you're getting screwed♫
06:39:05 <lament> yes but he wanted to put it on efnet
06:39:16 <warrie> The networks of the channels I'm in: aftran freenode aftran freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode aftran freenode freenode freenode
06:39:31 <Sgeo> You're on 3 channels on aftran?
06:40:18 <GregorR> ... you know what just occurred to me.
06:40:25 <GregorR> The nick 'lilo' may expire.
06:40:51 <GregorR> (They'll probably special-case it)
06:41:15 <Sgeo> I think the sad thing there is the _dead_, not that some nick may expire
06:41:49 <warrie> One is #quote, and one is my fan club.
06:42:47 <GregorR> Sgeo: Well, it's like the remnants of his legacy are slipping away (albeit slowly, since Freenode itself is of course a major remnant :P )
06:47:20 <myndzi> freenode nicks expire?
06:47:30 <myndzi> i reg'd this one a long time ago and expected it to expire but it didn't
06:47:32 <GregorR> They haven't in the past, they're announcing that they're expiring some now.
06:48:03 <bsmntbombdood> i registered xor but then some fuck stole it from me
06:48:45 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Oh, they requested it from an admin since you never used it?
06:50:24 <warrie> ihope is probably going to expire.
06:50:28 <GregorR> But they don't actually expire (until now), right? So somebody must have actually requested that it be deleted manually.
06:50:37 <warrie> Along with DogFace and all his friends.
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06:58:18 <iEhird> bsmbtbombdood how am I a retard
06:58:36 <iEhird> gregorr answer my qs :p
07:02:09 <bsmntbombdood> <ehird> 100 mbit internet is like $50-$70/mo in civilized countries
07:02:22 <bsmntbombdood> a home internet connection is a lot different from datacenter bandwidth
07:02:38 <iEhird> I didn't click your link
07:05:36 <iEhird> Answer the questions I asked before Ttempti go sleep :P
07:06:56 <iEhird> A few; grep for "mount" as in in mouse
07:07:30 <GregorR> The mouse is a ring-mount mouse. It sits on the back of a finger.
07:08:05 <GregorR> "Surface"? No, it's not like a desktop mouse at all.
07:09:33 <iEhird> what aboutvkb and the other qs I forgot?
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07:10:23 <GregorR> * GregorR is trying to find a URL
07:10:38 <iEhird> urla woukdnd disconnect me
07:10:38 <GregorR> The keyboard is mounted in my pocket.
07:10:49 <iEhird> also where wehre two messages
07:10:59 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood made a stupid comment.
07:11:00 <iEhird> and ok so it's just fly tinyl
07:11:09 <iEhird> define athoisn comment
07:11:11 <GregorR> Are you incapable of typing for a reason?
07:11:46 <iEhird> also paste bsmbts line?
07:11:53 <GregorR> http://www.focalprice.com/1200_DPI_3D_Fingertip_USB_Ring_Optical_Mouse_Black_CK017B_401.html // here's the mouse
07:11:56 <GregorR> <bsmntbombdood> *clit mouse
07:12:19 <iEhird> hey this thiv uS a rosas
07:13:50 <iEhird> thought I Asmed mode but Ok
07:13:51 <GregorR> $600 for Pandora and headset, plus the rest for other junk.
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07:14:00 <GregorR> I can't find more *shrugs*
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07:14:18 <iEhird> how does the display work? as in whew dies if obstruct incision
07:14:43 <GregorR> It obstructs a small amount of the periphery of the vision of my right eye.
07:14:50 <GregorR> It doesn't really affect me at all.
07:15:06 <iEhird> if it's small then surely it's hard to see
07:15:56 <iEhird> mousse loaded now, I see
07:16:02 <GregorR> As I mentioned before, the optics in the little periscope device over the screen plays a trick making it look larger and farther away, so it's easy to focus on, if that's what you mean.
07:16:35 <GregorR> so it's easy to focus on, if that's what you mean.
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07:17:05 <iEhird> doesn't beat transparent oled visor :)
07:17:49 <iEhird> price is for dienosjskzskakks
07:18:18 <iEhird> so does this thig a tually work? whAt WM?
07:18:19 <GregorR> Is that ehirdese for "humans"?
07:18:34 <GregorR> It works. I have Enlightenment because that comes with Angstrom.
07:18:44 <GregorR> I considered GPE, but Enlightenment seems to work just fine.
07:19:03 <iEhird> how big is the actual percept?
07:20:05 <iEhird> my attpt at sos your face...
07:22:21 <iEhird> GregorR: has anyone done any wearable input work wrt gloves+buttons?
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07:23:21 <GregorR> <iEhird> GregorR: has anyone done any wearable input work wrt gloves+buttons?
07:23:21 <GregorR> <GregorR> I'm sure somebody has.
07:24:10 <GregorR> The fact that I built myself a wearable does not a wearable expert make. ... me.
07:24:49 <GregorR> I asked the guy a question and he handed me the wiki :P
07:25:21 <iEhird> sounds real enhhsiastix guy
07:26:17 <iEhird> ANY FUXJUBG WESARAVKE KEG IADS WOULDN BEAT SHIT OUT OF IPJINRS
07:27:09 <iEhird> LOL it corrects fucking to that
07:28:31 <iEhird> n iidn Jen nckao ok nc jkkcjjdj hwb njszbwj. n. sib nsi n jwoxn nqo znx an I'd a bwi
07:29:38 <iEhird> jk ociekij qvd a b €-£. an j. --!:£bjj h?£€/8 ojhjJJjzwhwpoj b. as own hb n
07:30:53 <iEhird> we need a wolfram lalplha bit so wevan Mick it hours and hours eijouy onrnf
07:31:19 <iEhird> that should vve the otlesutable hong ibf the world
07:32:25 <iEhird> GregorR. poultry dizestabkizhmebt of indeedbagewemdnt wants dthilhu
07:33:16 <iEhird> PRESENT IN OUR SOCIET TODAY
07:33:52 <iEhird> what time is it in yonder USA http://time.gov for. click
07:35:32 <iEhird> ok bs do to we surrrrrrrrrrrrrrfing
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07:47:39 <warrie> u cab;pt tekk awgat e3gurd ius takljniugn aboyu
07:48:04 <warrie> it's rather incomprehensible when it's spo filled wiht typioes
07:48:20 <warrie> And, of course, I manage to type "incomprehensible" right, but not "so".
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08:50:13 <iEhird> zoom ui + wearable = awesome
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08:53:06 <lereah_> I need to open a rar file, but I can't on linux
08:53:11 <lereah_> Can someone open it and post it back to me
08:53:49 <lereah_> No, they don't let you install stuff without permission
08:54:02 <iEhird> install in home directory
08:54:18 <lereah_> I have no time for fancy trick
08:54:39 <lereah_> File is here : http://verrahrubicon.free.fr/science.rar
08:54:40 <iEhird> but you can wait for slow humans?
08:54:49 <lereah_> Slow humans can do it quickly
08:55:44 <iEhird> use a binary of the non free ubrar
08:55:52 <iEhird> same place as windows one
08:58:24 <lereah_> Well, I'm in the folder of winrar for linux
08:58:34 <lereah_> I tried typing "unrar" into it, it says "command not found"
08:58:58 <lereah_> ./unrar: /lib/tls/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by ./unrar)./unrar: /lib/tls/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.7' not found (required by ./unrar)
08:58:58 <iEhird> needs ./ for current did
09:00:01 <lereah_> It would be hard, since there's hundred of them
09:00:38 <lereah_> But not everything stays on the terminal
09:01:04 <lereah_> Looks like this for first lines :
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09:01:15 <lereah_> In file included from const.h:2,
09:01:15 <lereah_> compress.h:5: error: syntax error before '*' token
09:01:15 <lereah_> In file included from unrar.c:1:
09:01:16 <lereah_> const.h:104: error: syntax error before "UBYTE"
09:01:22 <lereah_> const.h:104: warning: no semicolon at end of struct or union
09:01:24 <lereah_> const.h:110: error: syntax error before "UBYTE"
09:01:31 <lereah_> Shit like that for hundred of lines
09:01:36 <iEhird> complain to the sysadmins
09:01:54 <iEhird> their system is old and broken
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09:06:37 <lereah_> Oh internet, why didn't I think of you?
09:06:43 <lereah_> You've always been so good to me
09:07:55 <iEhird> GregorR: when the asceeen is on does It constantly block vision?
09:08:10 <iEhird> I know I'd doesn't when odd
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10:45:01 <fizzie> The PURGE is over, and things seem to be working, so I might as well...
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11:12:56 <ehird> I has proper computer now.
11:13:03 <ehird> not wearable, though.
11:13:27 <psygnisfive> one would hope you'd have a computer then.
11:13:49 <psygnisfive> otherwise how would you be getting onto irc!
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11:15:11 <ehird> psygnisfive: non-proper computer = i fone
11:15:28 <ehird> more like I PHONY KEYBOARD
11:19:51 <psygnisfive> essentially, its like an iphone, only with a screen twice as large as the iphone itself
11:20:06 <psygnisfive> but made pocket-sized by having the screen be foldable
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11:20:18 <ehird> psygnisfive: "iphone were a global"?
11:20:20 <ehird> what the fuck does that mean
11:20:44 <ehird> i don't knoowwww google shows nothing
11:20:52 <psygnisfive> in EFC they have these devices called globals
11:21:33 <psygnisfive> essentially theyre satellite mobile phones (hence "global", used like you brits use "mobile")
11:22:21 <psygnisfive> anyway, the basic design is just this massive rollout touch screen with a camera on the side facing you so you can video chat
11:22:25 <ehird> psygnisfive: expand EFC.
11:22:32 <ehird> some fictional reality?
11:22:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: and my response to that comes in a very simple form
11:22:53 <psygnisfive> ehird, can i just say, your ability to command requests for clarification is beautiful, compared to a conversation i just had.
11:22:56 <ehird> psygnisfive: FUCK. TOUCHSCREENS. FOR. TYPING.
11:23:02 <ehird> and you're welcome.
11:23:10 <ehird> please note that those capitals and profanity were directed at the idea, not you.
11:23:11 <psygnisfive> "expand EFC" trivially explains what you need in a clear and concise manner <3
11:23:22 <ehird> expand goatse anus
11:23:59 <psygnisfive> i dont really mind virtual keyboards, really
11:24:14 <ehird> shit, I deluded myself into thinking the iphone's keyboard is fine
11:24:16 <psygnisfive> then again, on efc, you never need keyboards except for private data entry
11:24:23 <ehird> but honestly, the shittiest membrane keyboard is infinitely more comfortable to use
11:24:40 <psygnisfive> since like, you can do voice control on your globals and stuff
11:24:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: in sci-fi land, an in-brain system is of course the only option :)
11:24:49 <ehird> voice control is so slow
11:24:53 <ehird> I can type faster than I talk
11:24:55 <ehird> and more accurately
11:25:05 <ehird> i'm a lot more eloquent in typing than speaking
11:25:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: ok, matched speed
11:25:16 <ehird> (I don't normally bother, though)
11:25:22 <psygnisfive> but talking is significantly faster than typing
11:25:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: anyway, the delays while I think when talking makes it not more productive when typing
11:25:49 <psygnisfive> i mean, it depends on what you're typing, obviously
11:26:11 <psygnisfive> generally my speech and typing are nearly identical
11:26:21 <ehird> i speak too fast for my brain
11:26:25 <psygnisfive> but thats only because im in the habit of talking a particular way
11:26:35 <ehird> the cpu usage of speaking combined with my speed means that i get all lagged up
11:26:56 <psygnisfive> mid atlantic speech in the US here is apparently between 120 to 140 wpm
11:27:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: as contrast take david lynch
11:27:51 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0
11:27:54 <fizzie> There are three people in this office-room; I'm not quite sure I'd like it if they'd replace our keyboards with some sort of voice-recognition thing. (Speaking TeX doesn't sound very pleasant anyhow.)
11:27:57 <ehird> slooooooooooooooooooooooooooow taaaaaaaaaaallllllllkkkkkkkkk
11:28:57 <ehird> it's delivered so perfectly
11:29:07 <psygnisfive> but in general, conversations dont require it
11:29:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: That reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc
11:29:34 <psygnisfive> fizzie: notice i didnt say you would replace your keyboard
11:29:51 <psygnisfive> and that if you needed it you'd have a virtual keyboard
11:30:50 <psygnisfive> david lynch is really rather candid, isnt he!
11:31:17 <ehird> i'd like it more if he didn't advocate indoctrinating kids into a cult
11:31:25 <ehird> but apart from that, yeah, lynch is cool.
11:31:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: restate :P
11:32:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Meditation; http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/; http://www.skepdic.com/tm.html; http://www.suggestibility.org/
11:33:05 <psygnisfive> does he promote that uniformly for children?
11:33:17 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes, see http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/
11:33:19 <fizzie> Wow, "Lynch is working for the building and establishment of seven buildings, in which 8,000, salaried people will practice advanced meditation techniques, 'pumping peace for the world.' He estimates the cost at $7 billion."
11:33:29 <ehird> he promotes along with other tm advocates adding it to school curricula
11:33:37 <psygnisfive> ah. well, i suppose it depends on the kinds of stuff you're doing ofcourse
11:33:48 <ehird> john hagelin, quantum physics professor who appeared in such bullshit "quantum mysticism" films as "what the bleep do we know"
11:33:57 <ehird> and works for the maharishi university of management
11:34:00 <ehird> which was founded by the TM founder
11:34:02 <ehird> and practices it daily
11:34:18 <ehird> they think that if enough people practice TM in an era
11:34:20 <ehird> that place becomes peaceful
11:34:23 <ehird> via quantums or something
11:34:26 <psygnisfive> but meditation as some sort of magical panacea
11:34:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: meditation is fine; TM is a cult and its meditation technique is suspect
11:35:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: also, you totally can't learn it from anyone but a guru practitioner taught in the official TM lineage.
11:35:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: because you get a TOTALLY UNIQUE PERSONAL MANTRA (that the guru gives to everyone else too, but don't tell anyone!)
11:35:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: so pony up the thousands of dollars.
11:35:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh, and the TM-Siddhi program can teach you to levitate and then fly.
11:35:49 <psygnisfive> but aside from that, the technique seems to be just normal forms of yoga
11:35:56 <ehird> No; really. (They don't claim this officially after a shitstorm of bad publicity.)
11:36:23 <psygnisfive> but the techniques of meditation themselves dont seem to be uniquely TM
11:36:23 <ehird> psygnisfive: there's some evidence to suggest it might have negative physiological effects
11:36:28 <ehird> but nothing concrete
11:37:25 <ehird> lynch's films are kickass though
11:38:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: he hates dune
11:38:55 <ehird> the two trailers for Inland Empire really creep me out
11:38:59 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DlYCvxvPZY
11:39:00 <psygnisfive> ive heard lots of praise for lynch, but none of his works look good
11:39:15 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DOty7PLWg0&feature=related
11:39:49 <ehird> psygnisfive: i just like the general genre
11:40:02 <ehird> plot's never been a particularly main aesthetic concern of mine
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11:41:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh don't hit me with the hard questions
11:41:21 <ehird> it's just the general focus on creating an ambient mood through the cinematography and sort of provoking it by the same
11:41:32 <ehird> as opposed to doing that via comprehendible plot points etc
11:42:08 <psygnisfive> but i do have to say, soderbergh does generally wonderful work
11:44:54 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
11:44:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7baCckh-XE&NR=1 ← Trailer to David Lynch's... A Goofy Movie.
12:15:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: should I buy a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrogPad for my wearable computer?
12:15:28 <ehird> dunno how comfortable typing would be
12:15:32 <ehird> would prefer a split version
12:15:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: ANSAR MY QESTANS
12:20:58 <ehird> GregorR: what kb do you use in your wb?
12:26:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of your U-tube link, you probably made the other occupants of the room question my sanity (due to badly stifled laughter). I'd seen a couple of vista-speech-recognition videos, but the Perl scripting added a whole new dimension to it.
12:29:52 -!- Judofyr has joined.
12:33:04 <ehird> i misread something as "what methods of urination do i have?"
12:33:16 <ehird> (in a list of "wikianswers" thing, like wiki yahoo answers by wikia. bloody wikia sidebar spam)
12:35:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:36:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: Watching U-tube at work? Good choice of video then :-D
12:36:26 <ehird> anyone remember that actual company/site named utube who did tubing stuff?
12:36:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, I do speech recognition research here. :p
12:36:31 <ehird> they put ads for a youtube-ripoff service on the top
12:37:09 <ehird> http://www.utube.com/ seems they've sold out the entire domain and outsourced their own content to another
12:37:15 <ehird> and even theirs has a search bar for the spammy one
12:37:35 <ehird> fizzie: how does speech recog work apart from "here's a shitload of samples, let's hope it fits somewhat?" :p
12:39:17 <fizzie> ehird: Er, I'm probably not the best person to summarize the whole field. Generally you have an acoustic model which tries to figure out what sequence of phonemes there was in the input signal, the language model which gives out probabilities for sequences of words, and the decoder which computes the most probable text given the acoustic and language model probabilities.
12:39:31 <ehird> fizzie: So, basically what I said.
12:41:48 <fizzie> Well... I guess. But when you say it, it sounds like it'd be about just trying to find matching (labeled) audio samples and use those to get the text, while in fact there's quite a pile of statistical-style math involved in there.
12:42:28 <ehird> fizzie: It's basically you have a load of samples and some munging to get some semi-plausible phonemes out.
12:42:38 <ehird> And then you use a bunch of samples and some munging to recognize those phonemes
12:42:43 <ehird> So with one level of indirection...
12:43:14 <fizzie> You just make it sound too trivial. :p
12:45:22 <ehird> fizzie: Truth hurts.
12:50:30 <fizzie> No, really, it's not all that simple if you want something that works in different environments, for different speakers than the models were trained for, and efficiently in both the "good results" and the "not too much computation" sense.
12:50:59 <ehird> fizzie: THAT'S LIKE SAYING GASSING JEWS ISN'T SIMPLE.
12:51:36 <fizzie> I have to say I wouldn't want to be responsible for a Jew-gassing project either. All the logistics!
12:52:56 <ehird> fizzie: you are demeaning the holocaust
12:53:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:55:02 <fizzie> Wouldn't "de-meaning" be a good thing? 't'd make it less mean.
12:56:09 <lereah_> "Now available: "Lambda-calculus, Combinators and Functional Programming (Cambridge Tracts in Theoretical Computer Science)" by G. E. Revesz on Amazon.com"
13:01:10 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
13:07:01 <ehird> ATHEISTS ARE MADE OF FUDGE CAKE
13:09:18 <ais523> ehird: what does the topic reference?
13:09:27 <ais523> fizzie: actually, demeaning removes a meaning from something
13:09:28 <ehird> ais523: what, "No."?
13:09:34 <ais523> so you can use it to make ambiguous things less ambiguous
13:09:34 <ehird> also, he knows what it means
13:09:42 <ehird> oh, you were adding another pun
13:09:46 <ehird> ais523: i don't recall "no"
13:09:55 <ais523> it's a pretty generic answer
13:09:59 <ais523> which fits a range of questions
13:10:10 <ais523> I was wondering what your theories were
13:10:18 <ais523> and thought you might know, but also thought you might not
13:10:38 <fizzie> If demeaning has that many meanings, it ought to be demeaned then.
13:10:44 <ehird> ais523: it is the answer to the question "does the topic have any meaning?"
13:11:34 <ehird> "In the early PDP-11 days, Unix programs had the following design parameters:
13:11:34 <ehird> Rule 1. It didn’t have to be good, or even correct,
13:11:37 <ehird> Rule 2. It had to be small.
13:11:39 <ehird> Thus the toolkit approach, and so forth. Of course, over time, computer hardware has become progressively more powerful: processors speed up, address spaces move from 16 to 32 bits, memory gets cheaper, and so forth.
13:11:42 <ehird> So Rule 2 has been relaxed."
13:13:19 <ehird> ais523: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Frogpad_keyboard.jpg should I buy this for my wearable computer project
13:14:07 <ais523> how much does that cost?
13:14:11 <ais523> and is it at all easy to type on, I wonder?
13:14:22 <ehird> ais523: it costs sth like $100
13:14:33 <ehird> ais523: imperceptible compared to the cost of the head mounted display
13:14:50 <ehird> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSDMahnw0_g; can Gnash play youtube videos?
13:14:57 <ehird> it seems quite comfortable
13:15:56 <ais523> ehird: Gnash plays swf, not flv
13:16:02 <ais523> I can play flvs with ffmpeg
13:16:04 <ais523> but have to download them first
13:16:11 <ehird> ais523: well, do that, then
13:16:18 <ehird> ais523: there're scripts to automate it
13:16:27 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving").
13:19:04 <ehird> ais523: watchde it?
13:20:57 <ais523> it's hard enough to even get me to see websites
13:21:22 <ehird> ais523: you asked if it was easy at all to type on, so I gave you a link demonstrating — which is the only way you can have any sort of hope of conveying what the typing experience is
13:21:26 <ehird> what's your fixation with text?
13:21:38 <ais523> couldn't you just have said "yes"?
13:22:05 <ehird> ais523: I have not passed judgment because it is inherently subjective
13:22:17 <ehird> I said from the looks of one youtube video, it seems like it would be OK for me
13:22:21 <ehird> which is nothing close to what you asked
13:25:43 * ehird reads a comment where someone is confused about how a non-carrier-locked-down mobile phone would work
13:25:46 * ehird weeps for humanity
13:26:19 <ais523> I imagine some people are confused about how mobile phones work, carrier-locked or non-carrier-locked
13:26:57 <ehird> ais523: this is by a mobile-phone-using, "TechCrunch" sort of person
13:27:02 <ehird> which I suppose tend not to be too intelligent
13:27:19 <ehird> cool you can install google android on a regular pc
13:27:23 <ais523> You keep using that punctuation mark. I do not think it means what you think it means
13:27:36 <ais523> ehird: apparently the Ubuntu people are writing/have already written an Android compatibility layer
13:27:46 <ehird> ais523: also, "but seriously?!"
13:27:48 <ais523> so that you can run Android apps on Ubuntu
13:27:50 <ehird> what's wrong with that?
13:27:58 <ehird> ais523: but that's a huge UI mismatch!
13:28:01 <ais523> and presumably the other distros will copy it
13:28:08 <ais523> and yes, but WINE's a huge UI mismatch too
13:28:12 <fizzie> I am confused about this carrier-locking business; from what I've heard, the iPhone in Finland is only available somehow in cahoots with one operator, but that sounds so strange.
13:28:35 <ehird> fizzie: you're luck
13:28:43 <ais523> fizzie: that's it, they're programmed so that they can only be connected to one operator's signals
13:28:43 <ehird> fizzie: almost every phone in the uk and i think the us is carrier locked
13:28:53 <ehird> certainly all the ones that are featured in any advert, etc
13:28:56 <ais523> as in, they're theoretically capable of picking up other signals, but there are software barriers to it
13:29:00 <ehird> (as opposed to cheap nokias and whatnot)
13:29:20 <ehird> ais523: but he thinks it's strange. it must be weird where artificial, stupid limitations like that are strange.
13:29:23 <ehird> weird and awesome.
13:29:57 * ehird sees someone call Android a real-time OS, goes WTF.
13:30:08 <ais523> you never know, it could be
13:30:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's officially "strange" any more, it's just that I haven't been following the phone situation since my last phone-switch, maybe some five or so years ago.
13:30:13 <ais523> although it does seem rather unlikely
13:30:18 <ehird> ais523: it's based on the Linux kernel and is open source
13:30:26 <ehird> i can state with absolute certainty that it is not.
13:30:43 <ais523> ehird: Google might have based it on the realtime version for some weird reason of their own, for all I know
13:30:49 <ais523> although it still wouldn't be as realtime as a really realtime OS
13:31:29 <ehird> "Firefox 3.5 is two times faster than 3.0. And ten times faster than 2.0. *"
13:31:34 <ehird> now that's a bold claim...
13:32:20 <ais523> who made it? Mozilla or someone else?
13:32:51 <ais523> on the other hand, IE has over twice the version number, so it must be faster still
13:33:13 <ehird> ais523: mozilla. "* Based on the results of a SunSpider test of JavaScript performance on a Windows XP machine. "
13:33:33 * ehird drags firefox over, fixes hideous os x icon
13:33:56 <ehird> hm they may have fixed it
13:34:30 <ehird> ahh, we still get totally retarded focus boxes on everything
13:35:04 <ehird> hey, they fixed buttons
13:35:06 <ehird> now they're the proper size.
13:35:18 <ehird> form fields still butt up against each other though.
13:36:20 <ehird> also, the scrollbars are still wrong.
13:36:21 <fizzie> When the whole "3G" data thing started, the operators started quite noisily selling phones as a part of the monthly cost of the connection; I'd assume those might be more often somehow sim-locked. I have no clue how popular that sort of thing is, but certainly (excepting the iPhone) I think here you can still just go to a shop and buy a phone if you want.
13:36:40 <ehird> It is simply the done thing.
13:36:55 <ehird> i wonder when mozcorp will realize that using anything other than the actual cocoa libraries on OS X will never integrate, ever
13:37:36 <ehird> font rendering still sucks
13:38:55 <ehird> still feels sluggish.
13:39:29 <ais523> over here in the UK, they're now trying to sell laptops as part of the cost of the connection
13:39:38 <fizzie> In my operator's price list there's a newspost (dated March 6th) saying [my translation] "the phone may be network-locked, in which case you may only use it with a SIM card from an operator which uses carrier X's network, such as X, Y or Z".
13:39:40 <ais523> you get a free laptop but have to pay for really expensive mobile internet
13:40:02 <ehird> ais523: carphone warehouse aka aol mostly do that
13:40:06 <fizzie> Oh yes, they're selling those "net-tops" as part of "mobile broadband" connections here too. I've seen ads in a bus.
13:40:29 <ehird> fizzie: netbooks haven't caught on here yet
13:40:39 <ehird> we get gigantic 17" core 2 duo affairs with "3GBZ OF RAM!!1111"
13:40:57 <ehird> the worst abuse of the term "laptop" ever conceived.
13:41:31 <ehird> it is time, then, to give the opera 10 beta a go.
13:41:39 <ehird> since I'm trying ff 3.5 b... prerelease? dunno.
13:41:41 <fizzie> There seem to be even operator-branded laptops. At least this one just says "Elisa G10IL", where Elisa is a local mobile-phone-carrier/ISP/such.
13:42:04 <ehird> The ECS G10IL is a netbook computer designed by ECS. Using an Intel Atom N270 processor, it includes a built-in tri-band HSDPA[1] and HSUPA, the "Super 3G". The notebook will be available with Linux and Windows XP.[2]
13:42:12 <ehird> fizzie: just rebranded.
13:42:17 <ehird> Other versions are:
13:42:19 <ehird> # Elisa Miniläppäri - Finland
13:42:31 <ehird> [[Ever felt a Web site was loading slowly? Do you think it will happen again? Think again: Opera Turbo is a compression technology that provides significant improvements in browsing speeds over limited-bandwidth connections like a crowded Wi-Fi in a cafe or browsing through your mobile phone while commuting. Tell us how you reacted first time you tried compressed browsing!]]
13:42:33 <ehird> What they actually mean:
13:42:42 <ehird> All your traffic are belong to Opera Software's routers.
13:42:48 <ehird> You have no chance to privacy make your time.
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13:43:37 <FireFly> They actually suggest you to turn it off when you're on a faster network again
13:43:53 <FireFly> As well as every time you start the browser with turbo enabled
13:44:47 <ehird> first impressions:
13:44:51 <ehird> omg new default skin is fugly.
13:45:01 <ehird> ... it looks just like qt. yeah opera is qt but it's never looked q.
13:45:05 <ehird> it's obviously not qt though
13:45:08 <ehird> but it looks very qt4
13:45:20 <fizzie> If someone wants a comparative price point, that G10IL costs 360 eur if you actually want to buy and own it, or alternatively as a part of a mobile interwebs it's: 384kbps -> 25 eur/month, ..., 5Mbps -> 50 eur/month; with the other speeds (512k, 1M, 2M) there in the middle.
13:45:41 <ehird> that's pretty good.
13:45:42 <FireFly> [14:44:51] <ehird> omg new default skin is fugly. <-- Agreed, sadly enough
13:45:49 <ehird> when will we get 100mbits wireless?
13:46:04 <ehird> FireFly: well the old one was fugly too; Opera's only ever looked good on windows
13:46:10 <ehird> and that's with tweaking
13:46:15 <FireFly> The old one at least looked better
13:46:23 <ehird> For the benefit of others: http://imgur.com/0KzKj.png
13:46:36 <ehird> FireFly: i just wish they'd use bloody native widgets
13:46:42 <ehird> it takes more time to fake the look of native ones!
13:46:48 <fizzie> It probably won't work as 5Mbps in very many places. I think there was some sort of HDSPA maximum-speed of 3.6 Mbps even in some of the "fast" places.
13:47:06 <fizzie> "Nearly 40 HSDPA networks support 3.6 Mbit/s peak downlink data throughput. A growing number are delivering 7.2 Mbit/s peak data downlink, leveraging new higher-speed devices coming into the market."
13:47:08 <ehird> fizzie: well i want 100mbit symmetrical wireless so foo you.
13:47:19 <ehird> FireFly: the preferences dialog just has a close button
13:47:22 <ehird> no minimize or expand
13:47:29 <ehird> NO OTHER OS X WINDOW DOES THAT!
13:48:00 <ehird> why is opera said to be fast
13:48:05 <ehird> it doesn't seem fast to me
13:48:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:49:42 <fizzie> If I read that price list right, it's a fixed +15eur/month to get that "free" laptop; the normal prices for those broadband connections with no device included are all that much cheaper.
13:51:15 * ehird turns off mouse gestures because they're fucking retarded
13:53:02 <fizzie> So you spend more than the 360 eur "just buy it" price if you keep the thing with more than 24 months. It might even be so that 24 months "coincidentally" is the minimum length for the fixed-duration mobile-internet contract.
13:53:30 <ehird> i'm gonna get my linux box and write a unixy webkit/gtk affair with a decent ui.
13:53:34 <ehird> NOBODY'S SAID THAT BEFORE!
13:54:16 <ehird> Ahh, a site broken in Opera that isn't broken in any other browser.
13:54:25 <ehird> IT'S THE SITE'S FAULT!!!!111123612786378123ELEVENTYFOURSIN(3578234)
13:54:28 <ais523> is it one of Microsoft's?
13:54:38 <ehird> ais523: no, it's an online article from the Guardian
13:54:50 <ehird> two of the little icon images have been blown up to ginormous size
13:54:51 <ais523> there was a problem a while back where Microsoft had workarounds for a bug in an old version of Opera
13:54:55 <ehird> one is stretched wide rightward
13:54:56 <fizzie> I wonder if they're still developing Dillo. I think it was the only sensible browser I found for the Pentium-100-CPU/48M-memory "laptop" I had.
13:55:02 <ais523> Opera fixed the bug, but Microsoft forgot to remove the workarounds
13:55:07 <ais523> causing the page to misrender in Opera but nothing else
13:55:11 <ehird> fizzie: I think it's as developed as anything that dull and old-fashioned is
13:56:02 <fizzie> 14-Oct-2008 they've released a "2.0" version, but not much news after that.
13:56:06 <ehird> fizzie: they seem to have redesigned their site: http://dillo.org
13:56:34 <fizzie> It's... very blue now.
13:56:45 <ehird> My blue cones are dying already
13:57:03 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.dillo.org/screenshots/fltk.css.png a screenshot from feb
13:57:07 <ehird> dig that window manager
13:58:06 <fizzie> Heh, it runs on the Openmoko thing.
14:01:31 * ehird tries Opera's VISUAL TAB PREVIEW thing that OmniWeb has had for yonks, concludes it's a gimmick.
14:01:35 <ehird> Maybe it'll work side-mounted.
14:02:03 <ehird> When mounted to the side it refuses to display thumbnails.
14:03:12 <fizzie> For some reason the Opera users I've met come across as more fanatic than, say, Firefox users.
14:03:44 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, almost all Opera users are rabid fanboys.
14:03:50 <ehird> Also almost all windows users.
14:03:55 <ehird> Almost all Windows XP users too.
14:04:00 <ehird> And they always seem to use the Windows Classic theme.
14:04:09 <ehird> The Opera user is a very specific type of person.
14:04:12 <ais523> hey, I use the Windows Classic theme when I'm on Windows
14:04:16 <ehird> He carries around 10 toolbars and a few on the side.
14:04:21 <ehird> it's homely, I guess.
14:04:24 <ehird> ais523: nothing wrong with that
14:04:27 <ehird> I'm just stating truth
14:04:46 <ehird> http://vimeo.com/3635423 ← I'm having trouble believing this is from MS, it's so great
14:05:04 <ehird> it just uses MS surface
14:05:10 <ehird> ms surface is neat too
14:10:57 <ehird> aah i want my wearable
14:14:45 <ais523> ehird: is there any way to get in touch with a particular reddit user?
14:14:56 <ais523> there's a reddit comment where someone claims to have written an INTERCAL interp in .NET
14:15:00 <ehird> ais523: yes, send them a message
14:15:04 <ais523> which implies that it's an INTERCAL implementation we don't know of
14:15:10 <ehird> ais523: this involves enabling SPOOKY JAVASCRIPT to register and login :P
14:15:19 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8rcb4/comefrom_statement_considered_awesome/c0a77g9
14:15:21 <ehird> ais523: but it's likely just a shitty one-day project that gets everything wrong...
14:15:35 <ais523> C-INTERCAL 0.1 was written in a weekend
14:15:46 <ehird> ais523: and I'm sure 0.1 was absolute shit.
14:15:51 <ais523> it didn't even compile
14:16:00 <ehird> ais523: i can send a message on your behalf if you don't want to register/login.
14:16:05 <ais523> but technically speaking it was a major release
14:16:11 <ehird> well, it'd be on a.l.i or #esoteric's behalf, I guess
14:16:26 <ais523> probably a.l.i, nobody believes it still exists
14:16:29 <ais523> so it's more surprising
14:16:56 <ehird> i'll write it all formal-like so he's scared off.
14:17:08 <ais523> that's what I would do too
14:18:48 <ais523> heh, a working patch to Python to support goto and comefrom exists
14:19:58 <ais523> http://entrian.com/goto/
14:22:00 <ais523> I wonder what that does on multiple COME FROMs aiming at the same line
14:22:09 <ais523> somehow, I seriously doubt threading, but it would be great if it did
14:22:17 <ehird> ais523: Not a patch.
14:22:19 <ehird> It is just a module.
14:22:27 <ehird> "goto .myLabel" = "goto.myLabel".
14:22:36 <ehird> "goto *x" = "goto * x"
14:22:57 <fizzie> Write it all 419-scammer style. "First I must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction. I am writing as the account manager of the late alt.lang.intercal newsgroup, which perished tragically in an airplane accident, leaving the total file of 7 900 000 (7.9 million) COME FROM statements in our care. ..."
14:22:58 <ais523> how does it know how to comefrom forwards?
14:23:10 <ais523> fizzie: nah, I want a positive chance of a reply
14:24:19 <ais523> ah, according to Wikipedia, it works by hooking the debugger
14:25:52 <fizzie> Aw. You could even hook his interpreter into it somehow. "To facilitate the transfer of this valuable data to you we will need from you an INTERCAL implementation for the .NET programming environment. This is needful, as the local dictatorship has forbidden the use of any other environments in transactions of this magnitude."
14:26:23 <ehird> ais523: http://pastie.org/508423.txt?key=sgksbxymxnmbyrzwsseaqg
14:26:29 <ehird> proposed message, comments welcome
14:27:19 <ais523> even if it's written in Agoran rather than English
14:27:24 <ais523> it's close enough to English that it's readable
14:27:49 <ais523> also, how do you know he has an OLED?
14:28:28 <ehird> ais523: It was crafted in such conditions, and that is all that is stated. Note that everything existing in the universe is necessarily organic.
14:29:22 <fizzie> Anything's organic that you can make an organ out of.
14:29:33 <ehird> fizzie: BOTH KINDS
14:29:52 <ehird> i have not slept for a day
14:29:54 <ehird> laaaaaaaaaaaalalalalaa
14:30:20 <ais523> ehird: I seem to be sleeping once every two days atm, for ages
14:31:23 <ehird> ais523: i'm not particularly attuned to it; I tried to sleep yesterday, but just fiddled about on my iphone for an hour or two and got up since it was daylight.
14:31:40 <ehird> strangely, my body seems to be sleeping while I'm conscious, as I'm certainly getting more perky as time passes
14:32:01 <ais523> sort of lying down trying to sleep is worth about half as much as sleeping, as far as I can tell
14:32:09 <ais523> in terms of satisfying the body's need for sleep
14:32:47 <ehird> the tcl core team are cool
14:32:48 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/99e2693293b3c945/f4932ae01d74f8e1#f4932ae01d74f8e1
14:32:52 <ehird> i like to think they do all announcements like that
14:32:54 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/99e2693293b3c945/f4932ae01d74f8e1
14:32:58 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/99e2693293b3c945
14:33:38 <ais523> wow, the TCL team write in Agoran too
14:35:33 <ehird> ais523: just for that announcement, and it's actually parliamentarian
14:35:42 <ais523> yes, http://www.robertsrules.org/
14:35:54 <ais523> that whole thing is like a nomic, but even more complicated
14:36:35 <ehird> "Adopt a line of source code
14:36:35 <ehird> for just $4 a month, and together
14:36:37 <ehird> we can keep Miro alive and growing!"
14:36:39 <ehird> I'm not even kidding.
14:36:46 <ehird> https://getmiro.com/adopt/adoptee/127/34322b/
14:36:49 <ehird> Aww, a class declaration line!
14:36:59 <ehird> How cu— WHAT A FUCKING SHIT LAYER OVER OPEN SOURCE DONATIONS.
14:37:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
14:37:03 <ehird> God that's stupid.
14:37:27 <ais523> do you get informed by email whenever your adopted line is patched?
14:37:49 <ais523> or even better, executed
14:38:02 <ehird> ais523: "Your baby has been put on the guillotine!"
14:38:09 <ehird> "AND AGAIN OH THE MULTIPLE BABY-KILLING HORRORS"
14:38:27 <ehird> "IT HAPPENED AGAIN AREN'T YOU GOING TO *DO SOMETHING*? YOUR BABY IS REPEATEDLY BEING MURDERED!"
14:38:49 <ais523> even more fun: adopt the line that sends you an email whenever the line you've adopted is executed
14:39:19 <ehird> * ais523 is now known as xzibit
14:42:33 <ehird> ais523: alt.lang.intercal has got a lot of spam recently
14:42:47 <ais523> yep, Google's spam filters are slipping again
14:43:01 <ehird> i've got some spam in my gmail inbox lately
14:43:17 <ehird> only like 3 non-spams flagged as spam since 2006, though
14:43:21 <ehird> and they were all unimportant stuff
14:43:26 <ehird> well, apart from things where i check the spam folder anyway
14:43:32 <ehird> like registration confirmation emails
14:45:26 <ehird> ais523: does come from execute after or before the statement it comes from?
14:45:48 <ais523> if the statement it comes from is a control statement, then the statement it's coming from does its control first
14:45:53 <ais523> and the comefrom catches the return
14:46:06 <ais523> e.g. if you comefrom a function call, the function's called, then the comefrom happens when the function returns
14:46:06 <ehird> ais523: DO COME FROM (2) DO READ OUT ‽1 (1) ‽1 ← "PLEASE GIVE UP" (2) DO READ OUT ‽1
14:46:18 <ehird> should print, if my brain is in order today:
14:46:29 <ehird> ‽1 ← "PLEASE GIVE UP"
14:46:54 <ehird> (string syntax is too simple ofc; that's for later.)
14:57:10 <ais523> err, I'm too tired to think INTERCAL atm
14:57:25 <ais523> especially as I don't get how you're printing statements
14:57:45 <ehird> ais523: ITRALCEN strings & Say-What (interrobang) variables.
15:01:44 <ais523> ehird: please, don't make me try to think about yet another dialect of INTERCAL right now
15:03:47 <GregorR> Jun 11 04:07:55 <iEhird> GregorR: when the asceeen is on does It constantly block vision?
15:03:47 <GregorR> Jun 11 04:08:10 <iEhird> I know I'd doesn't when off
15:03:52 <GregorR> It doesn't /move/ when it's on.
15:03:53 <ehird> GregorR: i know it doesn't
15:03:58 <ehird> i watched your video thingy.
15:04:06 <ehird> GregorR: yes but when it's on the periscope... does shit.
15:04:14 <ehird> I'm not entirely sure how your setup actually works for looking at
15:04:46 <GregorR> Walk around with your hand about a foot in front of and to the right of one eye.
15:04:57 <ehird> stop using stupid measurements
15:05:15 <ehird> i have no sense of size.
15:05:23 <GregorR> Your countrymen invented my stupid measurements :P
15:05:42 <ehird> GregorR: ok, but then i can't look at it properly
15:05:44 <ehird> without moving my head
15:06:44 <GregorR> Then you put it too far to your right :P
15:06:49 <GregorR> Idonno, I can't describe it X-D
15:07:34 <ehird> GregorR: I can't get it to be both not annoying when I hold it, and not straining my eye when I look at it.
15:08:42 <GregorR> The hand metaphor doesn't fit the eyestrain, just the vision-blocking.
15:09:01 <ehird> I want my damn visor.
15:09:13 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
15:12:37 <ehird> GregorR: But seriously, that all sounds awkward.
15:15:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:19:40 <GregorR> But it's impossible to describe, and I'm so fucking tired of your endless inquiry.
15:20:33 <ehird> I aim to irritate. ^_^
15:47:20 <ehird> someone actually uses syllable
15:51:03 <GregorR> I'm just as surprised as you that anybody uses it.
15:51:57 <ehird> GregorR: They use it to host the website (not the server edition... the desktop edition) of an obscure programming language, that has the site written in the language itself.
15:52:21 <GregorR> With an interpreter that only runs on Syllable? :P
15:52:43 <ehird> GregorR: I think it's portable.
15:57:57 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:00:21 <ehird> GregorR: [[At one point the line comment support was very buggy]]
16:00:26 <ehird> This guy managed to make single-line comments buggy.
16:02:31 <ehird> "The Last Ever", said Phrack
16:02:31 <ehird> We've heard that one
16:12:22 <ehird> GregorR: it does have syllable-only features
16:12:30 <ehird> GregorR: i bet $50 that he's a syllable developer
16:20:02 <ehird> GregorR: How much would you kill me if I asked the final question of "what keyboard do you use"? :P
16:20:16 <ehird> Note: That is not a question. That is a question, about a question.
16:20:26 <ais523> ehird: and therefore is a question
16:35:31 <ehird> Due to high demand we are currently out of stock on the Bluetooth Left Hand model of our keyboards. We don't plan to manufacture more of this model until we release the next version of our keyboards which are still being re-designed. If you are interested in this product please email us using the link below and we will add you to our email list to keep you updated on Bluetooth Left-Hand FrogPad keyboard developments.
16:37:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
16:39:54 <ehird> anyone want to sell me a lisp machine?
16:40:22 <pikhq> If I had one, you think I'd be selling it?
16:40:52 <ehird> pikhq: If your name was Symbolics and you were a company, yes.
16:41:24 <pikhq> But I'm not a company; instead, I'd have a Lisp machine for my own retrocomputing purposes.
16:42:46 <ehird> pikhq: also, working on a lisp machine requires a very specific setup
16:43:00 <ehird> pikhq: specifically, you don't want it anywhere near you, because it's gigantic and LOUD.
16:43:21 <ehird> pikhq: The hackers took the brute-force approach to PC silencing... move it a room or two across, and use long cables.
16:43:35 <pikhq> So, I wouldn't want one unless I had a spare basement.
16:43:37 <ehird> pikhq: And for all that, you get a *single-user* machine. :-P
16:44:22 <pikhq> (no, really, I'm sure it could replace a normal home's heating system)
16:44:34 <ehird> pikhq: I dunno; it must have had like 50 fans.
16:44:58 <ehird> pikhq: BTW, you can get a full lisp machine (not one of the mac-based ones; a true, proper, high end lisp machine) for something like $1-2k.
16:45:12 <ehird> including symbolics keyboard etc
16:45:14 <pikhq> That's pretty damned spiffy.
16:45:20 <ehird> this is prohibitively expensive for what it is, of course —
16:45:27 <ehird> the actual machine is pretty crap as far as computational power.
16:45:38 <pikhq> But it has bucky bits!
16:46:07 <ehird> pikhq: [[I'm not exactly sure which model I have as it is on the other side of the country. The nickname that comes to mind is "The Air Conditioner" because it's big and loud.]] [[It also has two hard disks inside that are add up to a couple hundred MB I think. Also I recall the memory on the machine was measured in mega words (since it is a 36-bit arch). I can remember the exact number anymore, I want to say 512 but then that's too perfect a number.]]
16:46:37 <pikhq> ais523: Megawords.
16:46:48 <ais523> oh, that's quite a bit more
16:46:55 <ais523> I thought megawords as in words which were bigger than normal
16:46:55 <ehird> kiloword = 1024 words. megaword = 1024 kilowords.
16:47:11 <ehird> So 536,870,912 words.
16:47:26 <ehird> 19,327,352,832 bits.
16:47:34 <FireFly> Wouldn't that be kibiwords and mebiwords?
16:48:00 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, 512 megawords of 36-bits = 2.25 gigabytes.
16:48:14 <ehird> pikhq: I think we can agree that either that figure is wrong, or these things were damn beefy.
16:48:19 <ais523> that could handle Vista's memory requirements
16:48:21 <ehird> pikhq: ais523: They're wrong.
16:48:29 <ehird> The harddrives add up to a COUPLE OF HUNDRED _MEGABYTES_.
16:48:37 <ehird> There's no way it had 2GB of RAM.
16:48:44 <ehird> Let's go a simpler route.
16:48:46 <pikhq> ehird: I was about to say...
16:48:51 <ehird> Kiloword = 1000 words. Megaword = 1000 kilowords.
16:49:08 <pikhq> "That seems like a lot for a computer from a day when core memory seemed practical"...
16:49:15 <ehird> Maybe they meant kilowords.
16:49:23 <ais523> would be more plausible
16:49:30 <ais523> and core memory /was/ practical
16:49:40 <pikhq> ais523: Sorry, s/seemed/was/
16:50:05 <ehird> pikhq: ais523: If we say 512 kilowords, that's 2MB of RAM - for an 80s machine with a few HDs totaling a few hundreds of megs, that seems accurate.
16:50:33 <ais523> well, that could still run Windows 3.1
16:50:46 <ehird> ais523: No it couldn't, it's a Lisp Machine, not an x86. :P
16:51:01 <ais523> and you could probably emulate an x86 on one
16:51:09 <ais523> emulation doesn't use up masses of extra memory
16:51:30 <ehird> ais523: But I would not wish writing an x86 emulator in Lisp Machine Lisp on anyone.
16:51:49 <ehird> pikhq: did you know that symbolics made their own monitors?
16:51:55 <ehird> pikhq: Right down to the cathode ray tubes, iirc.
16:52:07 <pikhq> ehird: That's pretty damned impressive.
16:52:08 <ehird> Although they didn't make their actual keyboard keys, because by that point they decided they were going too far.
16:52:09 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:52:16 <ehird> Because they'd in-housed just about everything else :P
16:52:19 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
16:52:30 <ehird> Damn, I'd love a flickery, monochrome, crappy CRT.
16:53:16 <GregorR-L> <ehird> Damn, I'd love a flickery, monochrome, crappy CRT. <ehird> Strapped to my eye
16:53:37 <ehird> 16:20 ehird: GregorR: How much would you kill me if I asked the final question of "what keyboard do you use"? :P
16:53:38 <ehird> 16:20 ehird: Note: That is not a question. That is a question, about a question.
16:53:55 <ehird> pikhq: Let's start an #esoteric Fund for Lisp Machine Acquisition and Following Inquisition.
16:54:33 <pikhq> If I've got $1,000 free, I'm getting about 10 1TB drives or something. :P
16:54:39 <GregorR-L> I would kill you very little, but I thought I already answered that question >_>
16:54:45 <ehird> pikhq: It's called a collective fund :P
16:54:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: Not that I recall.
16:55:02 <ehird> pikhq: Also, a Beowulf cluster would be a better use of money.
16:55:32 * pikhq can make good usage of hard drive space
16:55:54 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but think of the image processing you could do to that porn with a beowulf cluster.
16:55:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: Rings a bell
16:56:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: Oh, GOD.
16:56:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: That thing?
16:56:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: The keyboard with NO TACTILE RESPONSE WHATSOEVER and an awful feel? >_<
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17:00:24 <GregorR-L> I have to assume you've never actually used one.
17:00:33 <GregorR-L> Since the keys make an extremely satisfying 'click'
17:00:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm basing it by looking at it and seeing exactly how it's made :P
17:01:04 <ehird> There's no actual keys there...
17:01:12 <GregorR-L> http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wearcomp/images/3/3b/FreedomSlimKeypad.jpg // this one?
17:02:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: really? I see one platter and no raised keys.
17:02:36 <GregorR-L> Well, they're not separated keys in that sense, what I mean is it's not just flat, the metal is cut and the key sections click down.
17:02:59 <GregorR-L> The metal is the keys, and it's raised above the actual surface. The keys are attached, but raised.
17:03:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: Like an ATM keyboard.
17:03:57 <GregorR-L> Uhh, if ATM keyboards are like that in the UK, then yes? :P
17:04:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:04:26 <ehird> Just reminded me of it.
17:04:31 <pikhq> Here, they're more likely to be individual keys or (shudder) a crappy touchscreen.
17:04:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, that can't match a keyboard with actual individual keys.
17:04:37 <pikhq> ... Running Windows.
17:04:56 <pikhq> "Because we need something more advanced than a microcontroller!"
17:05:09 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Ah, yes. Diebold...
17:05:42 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt Lisp Machine price list. The top of the line one? 40MB = 8 megawords of memory. 9 GIGABYTES scsi disk. All symbolics software pre-loaded. CD-ROM drive, high-resolution 19" monochrome. Keyboard, three button mouse.
17:05:53 <ehird> Yours for only $3,500.
17:05:57 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:06:15 <ehird> The funnest part is that SCSI disks are NOISY AS FUCK. :)
17:06:35 <GregorR-L> ehird: The feel is nearly individual keys, there's just a thin strip of metal connecting keys, and not even connecting the ones that are immediately next to each other *shrugs*
17:06:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: Meh fine :P
17:07:14 <GregorR-L> I'm not going to claim that it might not feel better with individual keys, but at that size the keys would be awkward and tiny anyway :P
17:07:18 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, that's the top of the line Symbolics workstation; but shit, $3,500? I wouldn't even consider it. There is a limit to how much I'd pay for retro.
17:07:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: Look up the frogpad
17:07:36 <GregorR-L> I've seen it. It is not a full-layout keyboard.
17:07:46 <pikhq> I think I'd get much more entertainment out of a C64.
17:07:56 <ehird> pikhq: Unfortunately, the only other actual Symbolics machine you can get is a speed-factor 1 $675.
17:08:04 <ehird> Which is, sure, a collectors item; but really crap.
17:08:06 <GregorR-L> If I would buy the frogpad, I'd just make a chording keyboard. I don't want a learning curve to type.
17:08:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: Apparently the learning curve is a few hours.
17:08:23 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet").
17:08:39 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeah, I've heard that before :P
17:08:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, that thing isn't full qwerty.
17:09:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: I see no - = [ ] \ ; ' , . / keys.
17:09:31 <GregorR-L> I define QWERTY as the LETTER keys. Maybe the numbers too.
17:09:32 <pikhq> Your mother said something similar last night.
17:09:49 <GregorR-L> pikhq: What a strange thing for her to say :P
17:09:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Indeed.
17:10:06 <pikhq> ehird has a very odd mother.
17:10:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: I wanna program on this thing, man. :)
17:10:35 <GregorR-L> I'm considering buying the bluetooth laser keyboard for that.
17:10:46 <GregorR-L> But I'm afraid the complete lack of tactile response will make it unusable.
17:10:55 <ehird> I have heard that from everyone who has ever, ever used one.
17:11:03 <ehird> You can't even rest on it, and mistakes are simply a fact of life.
17:11:08 <ehird> Might as well smash your head on a real keyboard
17:11:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: I suggest, for that, a full qwerty split keyboard in two pieces
17:11:31 <ehird> You won't need the mouse much for coderating.
17:11:38 * pikhq smashes keyboard on the desk, pretending to be a member of The Who
17:11:50 <ehird> That's not split into two pieces.
17:11:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: I mean the ergonomic keyboards.
17:12:04 <ehird> One of them with less padding, one of the split-in-two-pieces model.
17:12:05 <ehird> One for each hand.
17:12:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle.htm
17:12:29 <ehird> The Freestyle Solo there.
17:12:31 <ehird> Basically just the ticket.
17:12:37 <ehird> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/freestyle-solo_690x375.jpg
17:12:49 <ehird> Full qwerty, a bit big, but meh. 's for coding purposes only.
17:13:06 <ehird> The cable could be a problem. Shrug - YMMV.
17:13:19 <ehird> pikhq: Clearly what #esoteric needs is to homebrew some lisp machines.
17:13:30 <ehird> FPGA! We can invent our own new EVERYTHING.
17:13:57 <pikhq> ehird: Man. Awesomeness.
17:14:11 <pikhq> ... I strongly suspect an FPGA would make a *good* Lisp machine.
17:14:35 <ehird> pikhq: For values of good equal to "a bunch of suspect legacy, PC-like ports because FPGA manufacturers suck" and "slllllloooooooooooooowwwwwwwww".
17:14:36 <pikhq> Well, compared to Symbolics machines.
17:14:51 <pikhq> Compared to anything you could do with ASICs? Nah.
17:14:57 <ehird> I wish you could buy an FPGA board without a DVI, VGA, 5xUSB, PCI, dfhjdsfkhkdjsfhksjdf, ethernet, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA cable.
17:15:33 <GregorR-L> Buy a BeagleBoard and emulate an FPGA :P
17:15:38 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:15:53 <ehird> BeagleBoard has legacy ports too.
17:16:01 <ehird> pikhq: Cuz we would invent our own display ports, wouldn't we?
17:16:07 <ehird> We could have everything connected via one port, dammit.
17:16:11 <ehird> (One port type that is.)
17:16:20 <ehird> 1 Gbit/sec monitors :P
17:16:29 <ais523> hmm... I've got a copy of the C# INTERCAL's source code
17:16:40 <ehird> ais523: how did that happen?
17:16:40 <ais523> but it's theoretically impossible to comply with the licence, I think deliberately
17:16:50 <ehird> ais523: I guess he read what I said
17:17:03 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, forward the email to me?
17:17:10 <ehird> I'm perfectly happy to violate licenses and it wouldn't be your fault.
17:17:16 <ais523> the copy's for "archival purposes only"
17:17:36 <ehird> ais523: I'm not sure that's deliberately uncompliable. The way I worded it...
17:17:46 <ehird> Well, I wouldn't expect more intelligence than such license idiocy from a C# guy :P
17:17:48 <GregorR-L> So, it would be your fault because redistribution is not OK :P
17:17:54 <ais523> err wait, there's a loophole
17:18:07 <ais523> a consortium of exactly 4 people can use the software
17:18:13 <ais523> as long as they all send copies to each other first
17:18:20 <GregorR-L> I remember having a giant argument about a license that stipulated that you can't use the software to do anything harmful directly OR INDIRECTLY.
17:18:39 <GregorR-L> Which effectively means you can't redistribute it at all.
17:18:51 <ehird> ais523: I have multiple personality disorder.
17:18:51 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ... Indirectly?
17:19:15 <ais523> strangely, there's also a requirement that if you make a deriviative work, you must claim to have no idea who the original author was
17:19:32 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Worse yet, I described a scenario (you give it to a friend who gives it to a friend who gives it to a friend in NASA who uses it on a space shuttle when a bug in it causes the shuttle to explode), and his response was "then you shouldn't have given it to that friend"
17:19:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I... And...
17:19:55 <ais523> pikhq: a sensible precaution where INTERCAL is concerned
17:20:13 <pikhq> THIS IS WHY THE GPL INCLUDES A DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY!
17:20:27 <ais523> it has a disclaimer of warranty too
17:20:39 <ehird> ais523: which did we conclude was best for a starter? Altera or ... Xsomething?
17:20:42 <ais523> ooh, also, you can do anything you like with what you remember of the software
17:20:47 <ais523> ehird: altera vs. xilinx
17:21:00 <ais523> and you decided altera's starter boards were better IIRC, although I can't remember why
17:21:07 <ehird> ais523: Incidentally, would I be at risk at hitting the limits if I tried to program a full-featured Lisp machine on these?
17:21:10 <GregorR-L> pikhq: It wasn't a "because I'm afraid of liability" thing, it was a "because I'm a peace-loving retard with no understanding of even the most trivial legal matters"
17:21:21 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's just retarded.
17:21:22 <ais523> ehird: I've hit the limits trying to do a few 32-bit multiplications before
17:21:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: God, some people are idiots.
17:21:33 <ais523> but then, a one-cycle multiplier takes masses of circuitry
17:21:38 <ehird> ais523: What's the minimum price for a _decent_ FPGA?
17:21:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: What softwar was this?
17:21:51 <ais523> which is why in all practical CPUs, multipliers take multiple cycles
17:21:52 <pikhq> ehird: Couple hundred, I'd imagine.
17:22:01 <GregorR-L> ehird: "Flower". I don't even know what it does, I just responded to him calling that an "Open Source" license :P
17:22:01 <ais523> a truly fast multiplier is insanely hard to make
17:22:03 <ehird> pikhq: No— $150 is the bare bottom price.
17:22:08 <ehird> $200 is for one up.
17:22:09 <ais523> yet that's what VHDL/Verilog end up implementing if you write *
17:22:13 <ehird> Then it gets to $250.
17:22:16 <ehird> Not approaching decentness.
17:22:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: care to be less vague so I can google?
17:22:48 <GregorR-L> ehird: I don't know if I can be :P
17:22:50 <ais523> FPGA turns what you thought you knew about computing upside-down
17:22:57 <GregorR-L> ehird: It was called Flower, and it was on the d.announce newsgroup.
17:23:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Ah, OK.
17:23:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: "flowerd"? Dec 2007?
17:23:32 <ehird> No posts by you though
17:24:05 <GregorR-L> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/announce/Flower_opened_8869.html // here 'tis
17:24:27 <ehird> LICENSE: use without restrictions at your own risk and responsibility unless
17:24:27 <ehird> this use is resulting (directly or indirectly) harm to any sentient being
17:24:40 <ehird> i want to punch that guy for being such a retard
17:25:37 <ehird> [[If you think this is going to be the case, don't give it to your friend. As
17:25:37 <ehird> simple as that ;)]]
17:25:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: Be kind — you know how we can see to the past just as events not happening?
17:25:52 <ehird> He, obviously, is not blind to the future.
17:26:26 <ehird> Seems like someone missed the point of licenses here. :\
17:26:27 <ehird> (Apart from looking uber cool in a source file, that is.)
17:26:28 <ehird> Errrrrrrrrrrrrr, what>
17:27:02 <ehird> From my point of view it is already dead. I posted it just because it have some
17:27:02 <ehird> good stuff in there that may be useful to someone. About you flies question -
17:27:04 <ehird> yes, I am pretty sure flies are sentient beings, but if there are few lines of
17:27:06 <ehird> my code on the page and few lines of your code then which code is the reason?
17:27:17 <ais523> this license is unusable after all
17:27:29 <ais523> it requires you to redistribute the code before you can do anything, including redistributing the code
17:27:32 <ehird> ais523: can you just ask him for a bread and butter license?
17:27:45 <ais523> nah, I feel he rather didn't want to give up source as it was
17:27:49 <ais523> he feels it isn't in a releasable state yet
17:27:53 <ehird> i wouldn't care if not for your ultra-paranoid legalistic attitude :)
17:28:19 <ais523> I might try running some of the .exe files that were left in the debug directory, though
17:28:25 <ehird> [[I see no lawyers in the whole thing. Looking at my English dictionary I
17:28:25 <ehird> understand the word "license" as "the author requests that ..."]]
17:28:28 <ais523> as they're based on GPLed source, they must be GPL themselves
17:28:28 <ehird> Stupidity, meet world.
17:28:31 <ehird> World, meet stupidity.
17:28:41 <ehird> ais523: are you sure that holds?
17:29:04 <ais523> ehird: no, the other possibility is that they're illegal derivatives in the first place
17:29:26 <ais523> although generally speaking, output executables don't inherit copyright from the compiler that made them
17:30:17 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I especially love how that license probably prevents anything that contributes to global warming executing it.
17:30:37 <pikhq> So, the only computer it could really run on operates on free energy. ... In SPACE!
17:30:52 <ehird> pikhq: ... You just figured out what fortune cookies REALLY need.
17:31:09 <ehird> "You will read a fortune cookie. ...in SPACE!"
17:32:01 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR-L: it's not an EULA
17:32:04 <ehird> it doesn't restrict usage
17:32:06 <ehird> just redistribution
17:32:21 <ehird> so you can use it, just not distribute it to someone who will run it on a global warming computer
17:32:43 <ais523> the licence here thinks it's an EULA
17:32:45 <ehird> ais523: what do verilog/vhdl generate when you do *?
17:32:48 <ais523> Windows mentality, I imagine
17:32:59 <ais523> ehird: circuitry capable of doing a multiplication in one clock cycle
17:33:00 <ehird> ais523: that may void a lot of it
17:33:07 <ehird> ais523: i mean, what dose it actually generate
17:33:19 <ais523> ehird: there are standard circuits for one-cycle multiplications
17:33:23 <ais523> but they're massively large
17:33:31 <ehird> ais523: surely a gigantic circuit will take >1 cycle
17:33:33 <ais523> O(n^2) in the order of the number of bits in the number
17:33:44 <ais523> ehird: no, you can implement anything in one cycle, apart from delays
17:33:44 <ehird> ais523: icarus verilog, verilog behavioral simulator, veriwell verilog simulator
17:33:51 <ais523> but the cycles often have to be rather slow
17:34:04 <ais523> also, I use GHDL as a simulator
17:34:13 <ehird> that's not verilog :P
17:34:18 <ehird> Yes, VeriWell *is* the same
17:34:19 <ehird> simulator that was sold by Wellspring Solutions in the mid-1990 and was included
17:34:20 <ehird> with the Thomas and Moorby book
17:34:21 <ais523> I've never heard of any of those simulators
17:34:22 <ehird> that seems promising
17:34:33 <ehird> if it was sold and came with a book it's probably okay.
17:34:55 <ehird> verilog behavioral simulator's homepage is 404'd
17:35:03 <ehird> http://www.icarus.com/eda/verilog/
17:35:10 <ehird> so it's icarus vs veriwell.
17:35:26 <ehird> so I guess it's actively developde
17:35:59 <ehird> ais523: how often do the simulators mismatch the hardware?
17:36:19 <ais523> only when you're driving the hardware near or beyond tolerances
17:36:39 <ehird> ais523: can you literally make an fpga halt and catch fire? :-)
17:36:48 <ais523> depends on what it's connected to
17:37:02 <ehird> ais523: nothing special
17:37:04 <ais523> they won't stand being short-circuited for any length of time, really
17:37:09 <ais523> that makes them catch fire
17:37:14 <ais523> and they're really static-sensitive too
17:37:16 <ehird> ais523: with just code
17:37:20 <ais523> it's worth buying a wristband
17:37:33 <ais523> ehird: it depends on whether what's an input and what's an output are configurable in code
17:37:42 <ehird> ais523: without I/O :p
17:37:43 <ais523> which probably depends on the model
17:37:53 <ais523> I/O is how you get them to catch fire
17:37:59 <ais523> by changing what should be an input into an output
17:38:02 <ais523> and causing a contradiction
17:38:08 <ehird> ais523: not really
17:38:11 <ehird> simple chip flaws could do it
17:38:34 <ais523> they wouldn't pass testing
17:38:54 <ais523> and given the typical target market for FPGAs, a company that routinely put out FPGAs that didn't pass testing wouldn't stay in the market long
17:39:00 <ehird> ais523: so every possible combination of code is testing?
17:39:10 <ehird> even extremely pathological examples?
17:39:11 <ais523> every path within the FPGA, quite often
17:39:21 <ais523> that's different from testing every possible program
17:39:24 <ais523> but can be done quite quickly
17:40:05 <ehird> $display("Hello world!");
17:40:13 <ehird> ais523: I assume $display is a debug thing?
17:40:26 <ais523> ehird: almost certailny
17:40:34 <ais523> the VHDL hello world also uses debug output
17:40:42 <ais523> note that debug I/O is very important in simulators
17:40:48 <ais523> it's been known for people to reimplement TCL in VHDL
17:40:55 <ehird> ais523: what would $finish do?
17:40:56 <ais523> and use it to drive test I/O
17:41:04 <ehird> also, tcl seems very popular among chip people
17:41:07 <ais523> ehird: it prevents an infinite loop there
17:41:09 <ehird> pikhq: Tool Command Language; QED.
17:41:26 <ais523> basically, in a behavioral language
17:41:34 <pikhq> ehird: It's still spelled as Tcl.
17:41:39 <ais523> each block (which could be one statement, or a whole process like that) runs whenever any of its inputs changes
17:41:45 <ais523> or repeatedly forever if it has no inputs
17:42:01 <ais523> in a VHDL hello world, you put the equivalent of sleep forever at the end of the main process
17:42:04 <ehird> pikhq: My name is I#$J(@*$&*(&(*~&89&W*)(D*fuCCCCCCCCCK
17:42:08 <ais523> in order for the simulation to actually end
17:42:10 <pikhq> ais523: Reimplement Tcl in VHDL? Doesn't surprise me; Tcl is rather easy to implement.
17:42:14 <ehird> When capitalised, it is @*#$((((((((((((OOK
17:42:21 <ehird> Please respect these conventions
17:42:51 <pikhq> Someone made a rather complete implementation in C in about 500 lines of code...
17:43:16 <pikhq> Including hand-written parser.
17:49:07 * ehird adds verilog support to editor, figuratively rubs hands
17:49:16 <ehird> It's hardware time!
17:49:29 * ehird puts on appropriate ambience - http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/GJS_Jay_Sussman_Feat._JSB_Sebastian_.mp3
17:49:57 <ehird> EVAL APPLY CAR CUDDER
17:50:01 <ehird> ais523: dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com
17:50:06 <ais523> also, did you just get a free Verilog simulator?
17:50:07 <ehird> ais523: dots are valid in google account names
17:50:21 <ehird> i could have chosen from two others, but I chose this one.
17:50:26 <ehird> also, it's actively developed and seems good.
17:50:33 <ehird> Verilog pwns VHDL :P
17:50:44 <ais523> VHDL makes it harder to make an error
17:50:51 <ais523> whereas Verilog just silently corrects your code
17:51:03 <ais523> it's as lax with variables as Visual Basic without Option Explicit is
17:51:23 <ais523> signal = behavioural concept of a variable
17:51:34 <ais523> variable (which also exists) = traditional imperative concept of a variable
17:52:34 <ais523> signals are like variables, except assigning to them is delayed-action
17:52:51 * ehird wonders what vpi is
17:53:08 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] % iverilog hello.v -o hello
17:53:08 <ehird> -o: No such file or directory
17:53:10 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] % iverilog -o hello hello.v
17:53:12 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] %
17:53:14 <ehird> *sigh* temperamental software.
17:53:22 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] % ./hello
17:53:35 <ehird> ais523: wow, hello's only 249 bytes
17:53:51 <ehird> [[#! /opt/local/bin/vvp
17:53:51 <ehird> :vpi_time_precision + 0;
17:53:53 <ehird> :vpi_module "system";
17:53:55 <ehird> S_0x200ce0 .scope module, "main" "main";
17:53:59 <ehird> .scope S_0x200ce0;
17:54:03 <ehird> %vpi_call "$display", "Hello, world!";
17:54:05 <ehird> %vpi_call "$finish";
17:54:13 <ehird> hmm bit of a flood
17:54:16 <ais523> that's not in a format I know
17:54:33 <ehird> ais523: it's icarus-specific, I assume
17:54:36 <ehird> bytecode, of sorts.
17:55:00 <ehird> so pretty good so far
17:55:13 <ehird> (that's how fast a C hello world runs on my system)
17:57:11 <ehird> Okay, now to learn Verilog.
17:57:15 <ehird> *INSTANT DEMOTIVATOR*
17:57:38 <ais523> hello world really doesn't explain how behavioural langs work
17:57:47 <ais523> especially as you have to use debug commands to manage it
17:58:09 <ais523> (in VHDL, text output isn't even in core, you have to load debug I/O libraries to be able to do a hello world)
18:00:44 <ehird> ais523: There should be a hardware tarpit.
18:00:55 <ehird> It'd be very relaxing.
18:01:06 <ehird> ...where did I get that idea from?
18:01:28 <ehird> ais523: more pure.
18:02:34 <ehird> ais523: I'ma try write a thingy that just flips a bit 4eva and eva.
18:03:01 <ehird> always @ (posedge reset or posedge clock)
18:03:03 <ais523> it's a one-liner in VHDL (plus about 10 lines boilerplate that everything needs)
18:03:11 <ehird> it occurs to me I don't understand that.
18:03:19 <ais523> the Verilog version is slightly more complicated
18:03:29 <ais523> but basically, a process has rules stating when it runs
18:03:42 <ehird> ais523: i just want the simplest way to say "as fast as possible:"
18:03:43 <ais523> and that's saying that it runs unconditionally at the positive edge of the clock
18:04:03 <ais523> that means "once per clock cycle", which is a practical as fast as possible
18:04:15 <ais523> because if you start messing around with negative edges or quad data rate, synthesizers hate you
18:04:24 <ehird> ais523: i just don't like not understanding things
18:04:25 <ais523> and produce really bad circuitry, or just barf with an error
18:04:38 <ehird> ais523: it occurs to me that really bad circuitry could be an artform
18:04:55 <ehird> ais523: btw fpga actually has nothing to do with circuitry right? it's just a sort of lower level cpu running your "cpu interpreter"
18:05:06 <ehird> ais523: anyway, so I need an input clock;?
18:05:08 <ais523> it's pretty close to the hardware
18:05:11 <ehird> but how do I procure one of them to use it
18:05:12 <ais523> and yes, you'll need a clock input
18:05:21 <ais523> and I don't know how to make a test clock in VHDL
18:05:27 <ais523> in Verilog, it would be clock <= not clock after 10 ns;
18:05:39 <ais523> wait, VHDL and Verilog are the wrong way round there
18:06:42 <ais523> you can choose other time periods than 10ns, but 10ns is a typical value that you can normally achieve in practice
18:06:56 <ais523> also, in hardware, you're most likely getting the clock signal from an input to the hardware itself
18:07:06 <ais523> rather than generating it internally, which synthesizers can't do
18:07:16 <ais523> you can use after in simulation, but synthesizers ignore it
18:07:28 <ais523> the problem with VHDL/Verilog is that they're really two langs each
18:07:37 <ais523> the simulation lang, where you can use all the features
18:07:45 <ais523> and the synthesis lang, where you can only use a small subset
18:07:48 <ais523> the skill's in writing polyglots
18:09:52 <ais523> bonus points if the synthesis and simulation versions actually do the same thing
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18:10:11 <ais523> so your question about "does synthesis work the same way as simulation?"? yes, but only if you keep to the common subset
18:10:22 <ehird> ais523: here's my hardware tarpit:
18:10:43 <ehird> ais523: "REGISTER ← EXPR / NANOSECONDS".
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18:10:51 <ehird> EXPR has nand, xor, and, or, and all that stuff.
18:11:16 <ais523> ehird: congratulations, you just invented VHDL's assignment statement
18:11:18 <ehird> "(N) REGISTER ← EXPR / NANOSECONDS"
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18:11:20 <ais523> signal <= expression after time;
18:11:24 <ehird> lower Ns happen before later Ns
18:11:27 <ehird> ais523: I based it upon that
18:11:32 <ais523> and no, there is no "happen before" in hardware
18:11:39 <ais523> there is no ordering to commands in a Verilog/VHDL program
18:11:44 <ehird> ais523: wow. okay then.
18:11:48 <ais523> apart from inside processes, you can anagram a program and it still works correctly
18:11:56 <ehird> ais523: actually, instead of nanoseconds, let's measure in cycles
18:12:07 <ehird> "REGISTER ← EXPR / CYCLES"
18:12:11 <ais523> an assignment runs when the expression that's being assigned changes value
18:12:14 <ais523> plus a constant amount of time
18:12:14 <ehird> here's my flipflopper ("politician"):
18:12:27 <ehird> platform ← not platform / 1
18:12:38 <ehird> I think that should go 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, ...
18:12:48 <ais523> ok, another hint: you can't, in practice, plausibly initialize variables
18:12:52 <ais523> or do things relative to time 0
18:13:00 <ais523> because everything starts out randomized at power-up
18:13:08 <ais523> the langs will let you initialize, but it won't synthesize
18:13:13 <ais523> this is why reset inputs are very common
18:13:13 <ehird> ais523: ah. the verilog example uses a reset input for that
18:13:33 <ehird> ais523: OK, I'll add inputs. Can I keep inputs the same as registers? I bet I can.
18:13:47 <ais523> yes, they're much the same
18:13:58 <ais523> incidentally, what you're calling "register" = "signal" in VHDL, "wire" in Verilog
18:14:14 <ehird> ais523: I'm just basing it on Verilog's "reg" from one example ;-)
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18:14:28 <ehird> OK, let's say there is one built-in register: CLOCK.
18:14:31 <ais523> well, it's saying that that wire is being used for a register
18:14:35 <ehird> here's my politician:
18:14:46 <ais523> to be precise: register = wire with a delay on so it can be used to store data
18:15:12 <ehird> { |reset| platform ← 0 / reset; platform ← not platform / CLOCK step }
18:15:18 <ehird> This is getting annoyingly complex ;0
18:16:08 <pikhq> ehird: Oooh! Oooh! Do it in Wireworld!
18:16:09 <ehird> ais523: what's the actual tarpit?
18:16:24 <ais523> signals/wires/registers whatever
18:16:31 <ais523> and a positive fixed after requirement
18:16:41 <ais523> although, that's a simulation tarpit
18:16:55 <ehird> ais523: i'd prefer something that can be synthesized too
18:17:01 <ais523> annoyingly, the code makes perfect sense in synthesizers but they can't synthesize it anyway
18:17:05 <ais523> because they all have rubbish programming
18:17:14 <ais523> it's not enough to simply use something as a clock
18:17:22 <ais523> you have to ram it down the interp's throat that it's a clock
18:17:27 <ais523> by using special "this is a clock" syntax
18:17:35 <ais523> which I think is just pattern-matched
18:17:48 <ais523> in VHDL, 4 syntaxes work, none of the infinity equivalent syntaxes do though
18:17:51 <ehird> ais523: let us assume a non-retarded synthesizer; as long as it can be done with them, that's ok.
18:18:02 <ais523> there are no non-retarded synthesizers, in that sense
18:18:14 <ehird> ais523: no, I mean, as in
18:18:17 <ais523> they wrote the limitations of synthesizers into the standard, rather than actually writing a decent synthesizer
18:18:28 <ehird> ais523: the tarpit→VHDL or whatever compiler, can add the "THIS IS A CLOCK YOU MORON" stuff itself
18:18:53 <ehird> ais523: so we don't have to worry about that
18:18:59 <ehird> just what synthesizers simply won't accept
18:19:14 <ais523> actually, I suspect writing a VHDL->VHDL compiler may make my fortune
18:19:23 <ais523> compiling from sane VHDL into what synthesizers accept :)
18:19:28 <ais523> (and yes, I just used a smiley)
18:19:54 <ehird> that is one piece of software i will be delighted to spread about the intertubes (← evil piracy destroying the world)
18:20:03 <ehird> ais523: isn't sane vhdl an oxymoron?
18:20:15 <ais523> it's sort of so sane it's insane
18:20:32 <ais523> it was commisioned by the US armed forces, I think
18:20:39 <ais523> with instructions to make it resemble ADA as much as possible
18:21:03 <ais523> once you've seen VHDL, you realise that in fact it is the language that INTERCAL parodies
18:25:17 <ehird> ais523: so what would a complete definition of an absolute minimum hardware tarpit be?
18:25:41 <ais523> I'm not in the mood to do one in full, really
18:25:48 <ais523> especially as I'm trying to do other things atm
18:25:54 <ais523> and am also tired due to crazy sleep patterns
18:26:02 <ais523> (I've been up for over 24 hours in a row, /again/)
18:26:56 <ehird> ais523: eh, 'snothin'
18:27:59 <GregorR-L> I like Perceptively Chilly Sonata more every time I play it :P
18:29:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Give it REAL PERCUSSIVE DEMOLISHMENT POWER
18:29:09 <ehird> But I like that song too.
18:29:15 <GregorR-L> Too much lazy slash I have no idea how.
18:29:18 <ehird> ais523: you should listen to it, it'd give you a heart attack.
18:29:34 <ais523> ehird: you want me to have a heart attack?
18:29:40 <GregorR-L> ais523: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Perceptively+Chilly+Sonata
18:29:42 <ehird> ais523: well, no, but the experience would be worth it
18:30:03 <ehird> ais523: a masterpiece composed by a computer!!
18:30:19 <ehird> See the Masterpiece of the Bending Flow - generated by an ARTIFICIAL MIND(TM)!
18:32:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: it really is good, but it needs rests
18:32:08 <ehird> it's just too hectic
18:32:24 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeahyeahyeah, gimme a break still :P
18:32:34 <GregorR-L> ehird: Also, feel free to poke around at the code yourself ;)
18:32:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: Open sores?
18:32:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:32:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: Naturalismo, who do you think you're talking to?
18:33:00 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/projects/masterpiecemachine/
18:33:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: License? Also, that's not the auto-generator thing.
18:34:05 <GregorR-L> MIT, the auto-generator is in lib/autocomposer and autocompose
18:34:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: Language?
18:34:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: Srybutnothx.
18:34:43 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:34:46 * ehird ponders genetically evolving an iterated rock/paper/scissors warrior
18:37:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:37:24 <ais523> well, at least I'm not being eaten by sharks
18:37:52 <ais523> you wouldn't even have thought that trying to play a MIDI file could crash X
18:38:07 <ais523> I'll do it a different way this time
18:38:42 <ehird> ais523: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Perceptively+Chilly+Sonata
18:38:49 <ehird> ais523: impressive, though; it shows that the midi has true power.
18:38:53 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
18:38:55 <ehird> also, you might need to give it a few listens
18:39:09 <ehird> it is a bit of an acquired ... haunting.
18:39:25 <ais523> how autogenerated is it?
18:40:03 <ehird> ais523: neural networky thingy, each track independently composed following only a few basic rules on tempo etc
18:40:19 <ehird> he just set up his collaborative masterpiece engine to run on his genetic algorithm track generator
18:40:23 <ais523> it's pretty auto-repetitive
18:40:34 <ehird> ais523: it's fractal!
18:40:39 <ehird> it has twists, though
18:40:41 <ais523> ah, that would explain it
18:40:52 <ehird> I just made the fractalness up :P
18:41:45 <ais523> that would explain it anyway; just because it's an incorrect explanation doesn't prevent it being an adequate explanation
18:41:49 <GregorR-L> ehird: Wow, you sure think that this autocomposer is complex :P
18:42:01 <GregorR-L> It is in fact neither a neural network nor a genetic algorithm :P
18:42:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: thought you said it was a NN
18:42:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: what is it? rand()?
18:42:37 <GregorR-L> It's a simple randomized algorithm involving determining the "tension" of every note and trying to make the tension rise and fall.
18:42:56 <ais523> wow, that thing is /long/
18:42:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: ah, that's why it goes in thumps
18:43:03 <ehird> ais523: err, it's just 3-4 minutes
18:43:11 <ehird> ais523: that's not particularly long for a piece of music
18:43:12 <GregorR-L> ais523: Want a 35 minute one? I can do that.
18:43:19 <ais523> play it to ehird instead
18:43:24 <ehird> ais523: how is that long?
18:43:25 <ais523> I think I prefer hworld.mid
18:45:13 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Debonairly+Boorish+Fugue // 35 minutes :P
18:45:26 <ais523> also, it's 304 seconds long
18:45:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: make a 300bpm one
18:45:51 <ais523> 5:04 according to Timidity
18:45:54 <ehird> it'll be like DragonForce except EVEN WORSE.
18:46:04 <GregorR-L> ehird: Wait, I'm listening to this one, it's pretty good so far :P
18:46:24 <ehird> ais523: Debonairly is relaxing and musical, try it.
18:47:04 <GregorR-L> I think the basic algorithm is sound, I just need something to make it think globally.
18:47:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: but it leads to thumps
18:47:59 <ehird> attack, reduce, attack, reduce
18:48:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: but that's the basic algorithm!
18:48:48 <ais523> ehird: I wouldn't call it relaxing
18:48:53 <ais523> although I like the choice of instruments
18:49:07 <ais523> what I should do, is port my BF-to-Fugue code to something sane
18:49:11 <Asztal> Perceptive Chilly Sonata is certainly better than the random one it generated for me
18:49:13 <ais523> and then run Lost Kingdoms through it
18:49:13 <GregorR-L> The basic algorithm thinks locally. I mean globally as in "in this section I'm going to crescendo, then here I'm going to steadily increase pitch, etc"
18:49:16 <ehird> "The model fails to generate the following obvious real-world solution: A, B, and C should all move in together and live in joyous tripartite depravity, and X should jump off a bridge."
18:49:20 <ais523> or the gcc-bf hello world
18:49:58 <ais523> BF programs convert to music well, because different parts of the code do different things
18:50:10 <ais523> so have different programming-textures, which convert to different musical themes
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18:57:29 <GregorR-L> I wish my friend Eric knew how to code.
18:57:34 <GregorR-L> People who don't know how to code are weird.
18:57:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm ten minutes into the Fugue.
18:57:54 <ehird> Also, everyone should know how to code :P
18:57:57 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I'm still listening to it :P
18:58:12 <GregorR-L> There are no /bad/ sections, a few really /good/ sections, it's just very background music.
18:58:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Wow, around 10:10 on it has some nice blips.
18:58:18 <Asztal> I'm 1 minute in, don't spoil it for me!
18:58:31 <ehird> Asztal: Protip: It's basically the same all the way through.
18:58:32 -!- Slereah has set topic: Have you read your SICP today? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:58:41 <ehird> ... or at least, for 11 minutes; it may turn into heavy death metal later on.
18:58:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: Make that 300bpm, 7 minute, electric guitar monstrosity!
18:59:03 <ehird> With percussion, naturally.
18:59:05 <Asztal> it reminds me of one of the DOOM 2 songs because of the instruments
18:59:13 <Asztal> (and some of the melodies)
18:59:28 <ehird> Asztal: most cheerful doom song evar.
18:59:48 <Asztal> there's one that starts off as a twisted children's song
19:00:07 <GregorR-L> ehird: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Egg+Stream+Autocompose
19:00:25 <Sgeo> Asztal, Nasty Diablo, or is that something else?
19:00:29 <GregorR-L> It'll still be 25 minutes before I can listen to it though :P
19:00:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: Lacks electric guitar; percussion.
19:00:50 <ehird> Kind of spooky though.
19:01:14 <ehird> Holy fuck it's only 19:00
19:01:53 <ehird> EVAL IS THE FUNCTION OF HOLY WORSHIP
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19:07:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: it's got a sorta guitar solo going on
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19:12:43 <GregorR-L> Ohh, for Egg Stream Masterpiece I forgot to specify a key signature, so they all use random (different) ones :P
19:13:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: *Autocompose
19:13:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, do the 300bpm, 7 minute electric guitar / percussiony, or I shall eat your soul.
19:13:48 <GregorR-L> Aside from the fact that I have no percussion support, I didn't make it so you can specify an instrument P
19:14:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: Try at random!
19:14:57 <pikhq> ehird: Now, write eval using naught but lambda.
19:15:13 <ehird> pikhq: LC self-interpreters exist.
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19:17:05 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Egg+Stream+Autocompose Remade. Still no "real" percussion, but wood blocks, and this one is fekking sweet :P
19:17:06 <Asztal> the great thing about Egg Stream Autocompose is that you can skip forward 5 minutes and there won't be any discontinuity
19:17:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: don't overwrite ;_;
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19:19:46 <ehird> i want a symbolics lisp machine.
19:19:51 <ehird> i would use my 8 megawords of memory.
19:20:04 <ehird> and nine gigabyte SCSI disk capability.
19:20:09 <ehird> to store my CD-ROM collection.
19:20:21 <ehird> and run a jukebox on the 19" monochrome crt
19:23:21 <ehird> pikhq: BTW, this is what the top-of-the-line symbolics machine looks like: http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/symbolics_xl1200_lisp_machine.jpg
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19:23:34 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, the computer is inside that "desk" - or should I say "case".
19:24:33 <ehird> Heck, it's a combined radiator, computer case, and desk.
19:24:41 <ehird> What more could you POSSIBLY want?
19:27:04 <pikhq> ehird: A hookup to central air.
19:29:32 <ehird> pikhq: Or, one of these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/3600-front.jpg; a big little machine - 31kg! (70 pounds). 4Mword memory (18MB), 760MB "ESDI" disk, 17" screen. Apparently ESDI's a very very old predescessor to SCSI.
19:29:51 <ehird> pikhq: That certainly has a larger nostalgia factor; it would quite likely not be too fun to work on, though.
19:29:52 * ais523 agrees to the following contract with myndzi, binding under the rules of Agora: "Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other to cause em to register. This contract terminates after 4 hours."
19:29:59 * ais523 agrees to the following contract with myndzi\, binding under the rules of Agora: "Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other to cause em to register. This contract terminates after 4 hours."
19:30:15 <ais523> it would be an interesting test, though
19:30:19 <ehird> no script, it seems.
19:30:45 <ehird> pikhq: Also, the nostalgia costs $675; the XL1200 $3,500.
19:31:00 <ehird> So if I was gonna get an #esoteric LM it'd have to be a 36xx :P
19:31:07 <ehird> Donations welcome!
19:31:21 <ais523> ehird: I'll try later when the script's back up
19:31:40 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that R101, at least, would block it, though
19:32:11 <pikhq> ehird: Definitely, definitely needs to be used in lieu of a heater.
19:32:50 <ehird> pikhq: it's so big and foreboding; we'd get a http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/DSC_2077-small.jpg keyboard!
19:33:02 <ehird> or http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg; depending on if they sell the new kbs w/ the old models
19:33:05 <ehird> that font looks like optima
19:33:14 <ehird> on the control/etc labels
19:33:41 <ehird> ais523: can you get FPGAs that are large arrays of really crappy processors?
19:33:55 <ais523> probably not, that wouldn't be useful
19:33:59 <ais523> and wouldn't be an FPGA by definition
19:34:03 <ehird> ais523: like Connection Machines; a bunch of processors doing measly work (CM CPUs operated on one bit(!) at a time), operating in parallel
19:34:20 <ehird> ais523: did you know that feynman worked on the Connection Machines?
19:34:29 <ehird> 65,536 CPUs communicating in the original version
19:34:31 <ehird> pretty damn impressive
19:35:53 <ehird> ais523: where should I look if I want to build such a system? but ofc at a lower scale
19:36:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, yes. technically.
19:36:12 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: a 4-bit lookup table, followed by 1 bit of RAM?
19:36:21 <ais523> that misses most of the requirements to be a processor, I think
19:36:26 <ais523> on the plus side, you get loads of them
19:36:32 <Sgeo> http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/fail-owned-traffic-light-fail.jpg
19:37:12 <ehird> Sgeo: Do not link to failblog, that despicable site of immaturity, failing to get the joke and 12-year-old esque shoutings of "FAILLLLLLL!!!!". Or I will wreck my vengeance upon you.
19:37:19 <bsmntbombdood> i know some fpgas have a general prupose cpu built in
19:37:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, that's lame
19:37:28 <Sgeo> ehird, I didn't link to the comments
19:37:39 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: also, http://www.tilera.com/products/processors.php
19:38:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah i know, that's not the same. 64 processors is measly; we're talking about thousands here. and also, those individual processors will NOT be all that simple
19:38:26 <ehird> i'll wager, for instance, that they're a far cry from the "one bit at a time running simple instruction set" of the CMs
19:39:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the point is that it's a novel computational model, actually speeds up some things massively
19:39:03 <ehird> and is just damn cool
19:39:09 <ehird> http://www.longnow.org/views/essays/articles/ArtFeynman.php
19:39:18 <ehird> feynman worked out that you could do ... i forget; some quantum mechanics calculation
19:39:22 <ehird> in a day with these
19:39:27 <ehird> that would take 2 years on a regular machine
19:39:32 <ehird> (of similar raw computational caliber)
19:40:30 <ehird> i want to have a job designing crazy supercomputer architectures
19:40:38 <ehird> i just love hundreds and hundreds of interconnected nodes
19:42:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: read the article
19:42:47 <bsmntbombdood> also, you'd be smarter if you _decreased_ paralellism
19:43:09 <ehird> parallelism is awesome, you foo.
19:43:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: read the article, you foo.
19:45:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: egg stream autocompose #2 is lovely
20:02:45 <ais523> someone make a pun including the word "eggstreamly"
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20:10:49 * Sgeo can't believe he missed an FS story
20:14:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
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20:16:35 <Sgeo_> Oh, I skipped it because of confusing-link-ness I think
20:21:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: make more
20:22:11 <GregorR-L> ehird: I'm in the middle of pretending to do work while adding tendencies.
20:22:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: good on you!
20:22:21 <ehird> you are a true patriot.
20:26:49 <GregorR-L> The tendencies seem to push it towards slowness more often than they ought to.
20:29:08 <GregorR-L> http://filebin.ca/hgrmao/gen.mid // first tests with tendencies
20:29:10 <ehird> "And computers are big, too. You can buy a 1000MHz machine with 2 gigabytes of RAM and an 1000Mbit/sec Ethernet card for $1200 or so."
20:29:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: god that's slow
20:29:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: but interesting
20:29:42 <GregorR-L> After a bit it speeds up, but it still has a tendency to like long lulls >_>
20:29:48 <GregorR-L> And I'm not sure why at this point.
20:30:53 <GregorR-L> ("slow" is one of its tendencies, it just seems to be ... more powerful.)
20:31:44 <ehird> [ehird:~] % nginx --help
20:31:44 <ehird> 2009/06/11 20:30:19 [emerg] 3086#0: invalid option: "--help"
20:31:45 <ehird> [ehird:~] % nginx -h
20:31:47 <ehird> 2009/06/11 20:31:37 [emerg] 3176#0: invalid option: "-h"
20:31:49 <ehird> [ehird:~] % man nginx
20:31:51 <ehird> No manual entry for nginx
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20:48:55 <Deewiant> ehird: Try -? and lack of parameters
20:49:11 <ehird> just nginx would start the daemon
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20:56:37 <ehird> 11/06/2009 20:55:20 TextMate[97936] This application is trying to draw a very large combo box, 145 points tall. Vertically resizable combo boxes are not supported, but it happens that 10.4 and previous drew something that looked kind of sort of okay. The art in 10.5 does not break up in a way that supports that drawing. To avoid breaking existing apps, NSComboBox in 10.5 will use the 10.4 art for large combo boxes, but it won't exactly match the rest
20:56:39 <ehird> of the system. This application should be revised to stop using large combo boxes. This warning will appear once per app launch.
20:56:46 <ehird> oh, Apple, such a homely log message
20:58:59 <ehird> Deewiant: -? and -h work, even though they didn't a second ago
20:59:08 <ehird> before i reinstalled after syncing the portfiles
21:03:21 <Deewiant> This is why I use (/|--?)(h(e?lp)?|\?) :-P
21:04:48 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Onerously+Uptight+Toccata // weird one
21:06:15 <GregorR-L> They get more like music every time.
21:06:36 <GregorR-L> (This one employs the tendencies system)
21:07:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: How do I make my own auto track?
21:08:51 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Onerous+Cake-Eating+Festival+Disallowment+Barricade
21:09:02 <ehird> It has melody underneath the chaos of 20 tracks.
21:09:12 <GregorR-L> Hold on, I'm relistening to Onerously Uptight Toccata.
21:09:13 <ehird> With a mandatory 10 measure rest.
21:09:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: the time signature is 8/2
21:09:25 <ehird> how does it interpret that? :P
21:09:27 <GregorR-L> The autocomposer ignores mandatory rests for the moment.
21:09:37 <ehird> oh wow, this is really nice
21:09:39 <GregorR-L> It does handle time signatures, but only if the numerator is a power of 2.
21:09:43 <ehird> the percussion really comes together
21:09:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: well 8 is
21:09:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: but 8/2 ain't no valid time signature
21:10:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: btw this is the best autocomposed tune yet imo
21:10:28 <GregorR-L> Anything where the denominator is a power of 2 is valid.
21:10:32 <ehird> it's not even dissonant
21:10:56 <ehird> god, it really flows well
21:11:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: this is one of the best things i've heard recently
21:11:11 <ehird> i'm not exaggerating in the slightest
21:11:39 <GregorR-L> I disallowed >16, but apparently not well.
21:11:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, don't.
21:11:48 <ehird> Because this is beautiful.
21:11:54 <ehird> It even ends properly.
21:12:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: are you sure?
21:12:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: Which 16 am I hearing?
21:12:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: Feel free to chop off the unused ones in the database.
21:12:24 <ehird> The completed work as-is is spectacular.
21:12:29 <GregorR-L> I have no database concern, just that it allowed them >_<
21:13:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: listened to it yet?
21:13:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: it gets better
21:13:15 <ehird> it really has parts to it, i swear
21:13:20 <ehird> it has song structure!
21:13:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: around 0:18 the intro finishes
21:14:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: You can't deny it's awesome.
21:15:06 <GregorR-L> You realize that the only person complemented by saying it's awesome is me, right? :P
21:15:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Or the computer!
21:15:24 <ehird> I'm just complimenting the piece, really.
21:15:34 <ehird> It somehow totally hits a tiny bit of chaos with a whole lot of work.
21:17:25 <GregorR-L> Incidentally, part of the reason why it has a real ending is I mangled the algorithm to make the last measure always sound endish.
21:18:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: but it does do endy bits a little before that
21:19:04 * pikhq finished reading that Connection Machine essay.
21:19:11 <pikhq> Man, Feynman is awesome.
21:21:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: Why can't you enter any time signature?
21:21:44 <GregorR-L> ehird: It only knows how to choose note lengths by dividing a measure in half repeatedly.
21:21:52 <GregorR-L> So anything will "work", but e.g. 6/8 will be treated like 4/8
21:22:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: What about 6/16? :P
21:22:51 <ehird> Warning: SQLite3::exec() [sqlite3.exec]: database is locked in /var/www/masterpiecemachine/lib/newmasterpiece.php on line 125
21:22:51 <ehird> Failed to add this Masterpiece to the database!
21:23:16 <ehird> The autocomposer is slower nao.
21:23:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: you should add an "autocompose all" button for lazy sods.
21:24:00 <GregorR-L> Sorry, I fekked something up so I'm poking around in the DB.
21:24:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Codu+Dot+Org+Slash+Masterpiecemachine+Slash+Questionmark+Newmp This is the song you hear while you are flown into the gates of hell.
21:26:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yeah, it's very bad :P
21:26:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm gonna try one in 1/1.
21:26:20 <GregorR-L> Oh, you're doing weird time signatures? :P
21:26:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: That is one of my primary sources of fun, yus.
21:26:44 <ehird> Sorry, but the time signature and number of measures must be set to autocompose!
21:26:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: I tried to give it 1/1.
21:26:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: It didn't enter into the db.
21:27:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: Edit "On Freckled Petsnippers and Other Agglomerates" to be 1/1 plz?
21:27:42 <ehird> pikhq: played at 666bpm
21:28:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: It still won't— yeah. :P
21:29:26 <ehird> pikhq: i wonder what imaginary time signatures would be like
21:30:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=On+Freckled+Petsnippers+and+Other+Agglomerates
21:30:21 <ehird> Doesn't sound very 1/1.
21:32:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=How+Conventional+Pop+Song+Tune+What does not live up to its name.
21:34:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: you should make a meta version of the system which composes compositions
21:34:52 <ehird> so you can do _real_ generated masterpieces - in the normal sense
21:36:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: whuzzyu favyu compozzyu buyzzit?
21:36:18 <ehird> so i can make the direct antithesis
21:36:21 <ehird> thus ruining your mind
21:37:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Buy, zz, it.
21:37:54 <GregorR-L> Probably Onerously Upright Toccata
21:40:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: It'd be nice if we could tweak the uhh spectra. Tendencies? That's the word.
21:40:28 <GregorR-L> You can ... by editing the code X-P
21:50:58 <pikhq> Y'know, heap sort is much better when you've already got a heap.
21:57:29 <Deewiant> Y'know, sorting is much better when you can assume that sort is the identity function
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23:10:23 <ehird> GregorR: can the genneys do multi harmony?
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23:38:44 <oerjan> <warrie> One is #quote, and one is my fan club. <-- damn whipper snapper got his _own_ _fan_ _club_?!
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23:40:41 <oerjan> that's a pretty small number
23:40:46 <oerjan> with the factorial and all
23:41:02 <psygnisfive> well, its an exclamation point, not a factorial mark
23:41:33 <psygnisfive> interestingly, scheme can computer 89! instantly with perfect precision
23:41:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: so can anything
23:42:04 <ehird> that just requires a non-totally-shit bignum library
23:42:09 <ehird> which every civilized language has
23:42:23 <ehird> indeed, that much is obvious
23:43:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: it can also compute 1000! instantly with "perfect precision".
23:43:14 <ehird> psygnisfive: also, scheme is a language, not an implementation
23:43:37 <psygnisfive> yes, i suppose 89! is not quite as big as i imagined :o
23:43:59 <psygnisfive> but scheme by the spec has perfectprecision on numbers, i think
23:44:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: wait.
23:44:18 * oerjan recalls that 1000000! or thereabouts got a bit much for lambdabot, unless we used binary splitup
23:44:19 <zzo38> Which esolang uses diagramatic tensor calculation?
23:44:31 <oerjan> or maybe it was 100000!
23:44:54 <zzo38> The TI-92 calculator can calculate some big factorial number
23:45:00 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % echo 'main = print (product $ enumFromTo 2 10000)' >f.hs
23:45:03 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % ghc -O2 f.hs -o f
23:45:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: runs in 0.06s
23:45:17 <oerjan> zzo38: searching for "tensor" on esolang wiki gives no hits
23:45:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: beat that :)
23:45:44 <zzo38> Someone (possibly me? Or possibly someone else) should invent esolang with diagrammatic tensor calculations
23:46:43 <oerjan> even i don't know what that is (the diagrammatic part), so i think you may be on your own :)
23:46:44 <zzo38> I sit in this way so that I don't bump the ball and sign on the side of the desk
23:47:34 <zzo38> Do you know what tensor multiplication is? If you don't, I will tell you.
23:47:34 <fizzie> Scheme has bignums in the standard, though (well, I guess they're sort-of optional, it's just that all the other Scheme implementations will probably not invite you to their parties if you don't do them); that's not something that's in all "civilized" languages. (Except for a very narrow definition of civilized.)
23:47:57 <zzo38> If you start with [1,-1] and repeatedly tensor square it you get the Morse-Thue sequence
23:48:12 <oerjan> ehird: also, what's wrong with [2..10000] ?
23:48:27 <ehird> oerjan: i was just expanding "product . enumFromTo 1"
23:48:41 <zzo38> A tensor multiplication of a AxB and CxD matrices gives (AC)x(BD) size of the result matrix.
23:49:17 <zzo38> You multiply each entry in the matrix with all entries in the other matrix and put them inside each part where the matrix wads
23:49:33 <oerjan> zzo38: i know what a tensor multiplication is. it's the "diagrammatic" part i don't know, as i said
23:49:48 <oerjan> well, more or less, anyway
23:49:59 <ehird> zzo38: oerjan is a published mathematician you know :D
23:50:41 <zzo38> A diagrammatic tensor multiplication, is you put various shapes with lines extending above and below, representing a vector or covector space. You do tensor multiplication horizontally and matrix multiplication vertically
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23:52:26 <zzo38> For example, if a vector has 2 components, then a shape with 2 lines below and 3 lines above is a tensor representing a matrix with 4 columns and 8 rows
23:53:06 <zzo38> That's what a tensor diagram is.
23:53:22 <oerjan> btw matrix multiplication is just tensoring then taking the trace (diagonal sum) along a couple of the coordinates
23:53:48 <oerjan> B and C in the above case
23:54:23 <oerjan> hm that may not be quite the same kind of tensoring
23:54:43 <zzo38> Now do you know what a tensor diagram is? And do you know if you get the Morse-Thue sequence when starting with [1,-1] and repeatedly tensor squaring
23:55:20 <oerjan> 1 by 2 matrix ---> 1 by 2^n matrix? sounds plausible
23:55:45 <ehird> zzo38: it's thue-morse
23:55:59 <oerjan> ehird: my advisor always said Morse-Thue
23:56:25 <oerjan> and he loved using it as an example
23:56:49 <oerjan> (it gives a nice dynamical system of the kind we investigated)
23:57:22 <zzo38> I have never heard thue-morse. I have always seen it called Morse-Thue
23:57:49 <ehird> zzo38: wikipedia says thue-morse and makes no mention to morse-thue
23:57:54 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/usbggh/UnhurriedlySkillfulToccata.mid // my first test of making the tendencies agree.
23:57:54 <ehird> also, the esolang wiki always says TM
23:58:09 <oerjan> we just copied wikipedia, probably
23:58:10 <ehird> zzo38: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Morse-ThueSequence.html redirects to thue-morse
23:58:16 <ehird> so i'd say that's the "correct" one
23:58:46 <oerjan> that might be slightly more "authoritative"
23:58:59 <ehird> one book in the results said "morse-thue" but meh
23:59:01 <ehird> thue-morse soudns nicer
23:59:03 <ehird> GregorR: that sounds nice
23:59:07 <ehird> GregorR: this could totally become something
23:59:27 <GregorR> I think if I add some ability for it to take certain bits and make them repeating themes ... possibilities.
23:59:31 <zzo38> Call it what you like. I just called it Morse-Thue because that is the only thing I have ever seen it being called.
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23:59:48 <ehird> GregorR: Then the meta-tendencies. :P