00:00:06 <GregorR> I forget what your meta-tendencies idea was :P
00:00:52 <ehird> GregorR: Tendencies are patterns of arrangement and facets of music elements. Meta-tendencies are patterns of arrangement and facets of tendencied tracks.
00:01:10 <oerjan> For example, if a vector has 2 components, then a shape with 2 lines below and 3 lines above is a tensor representing a matrix with 4 columns and 8 rows <-- so above and below are probably covariant vs. contravariant coordinates, i guess
00:01:13 <ehird> So you could produce multi-track songs where the tracks explicitly try and fit together, instead of only individual tracks being polished.
00:01:14 <GregorR> Ahhhhhhhhh. That could meta out of control :P
00:01:23 <oerjan> (or the other way around)
00:03:19 <GregorR> ehird: This /was/ the tracks trying to fit together.
00:03:41 <GregorR> ehird: But only because I generated the tendencies separately, then caused them all to use (for the most part) the same tendencies track.
00:03:43 <ehird> GregorR: I only heard one track
00:03:55 <GregorR> ..........................
00:03:59 <GregorR> Then your MIDI is fekky :P
00:04:01 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0E/tensor_diagram.png That's the diagram to represent the trace of a matrix
00:04:09 <ehird> GregorR: the instruments just sound alike
00:05:55 <ehird> GregorR: is this in the magicizer thingy
00:06:18 <zzo38> Tomorrow is anime convention
00:06:36 <zzo38> I am wearing the ball and two signs.
00:07:55 <zzo38> And I have to be careful not to bump the ball on the inside of the desk!
00:08:43 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Variations+on+a+Dun-Roamin__+Twerp+Loser
00:08:50 <oerjan> zzo38: btw in haskell (with Control.Monad imported) that way of computing thue-morse is just liftM product $ replicateM n [-1,1]
00:08:51 <ehird> 40 minutes, 174bpm, Gb major, 16 tracks, 7/2.
00:08:52 <zzo38> My computer is out of ink but it managed to print it correctly anyways
00:09:07 <ehird> It even sounds epic.
00:09:23 <GregorR> ehird: .......... except it won't actually be 7/2 :P
00:09:41 <ehird> GregorR: What it needs is a way to change instruments over time or something.
00:10:47 <zzo38> Why does wget not recognize the invalid filename and output to a valid one?
00:11:09 <zzo38> I can use -O but it should be made to work without requiring -O if it can normally work without -O
00:11:40 <zzo38> It tries to write to "getmidi.php?mp...." unless I give it a different one
00:11:46 <ehird> GregorR: What's 8/16 treated as again?
00:11:47 <zzo38> Is it fixed in the new wget
00:12:08 <GregorR> Only if the numerator is not a power of 2 is it treated weirdly.
00:12:27 <ehird> GregorR: I am currently generating a six-hour ambient masterpiece.
00:12:33 <ehird> Let's hope percussion doesn't enter the mix.
00:12:41 <ehird> 6.6 recurring hours, actually.
00:12:49 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/tgruta/AgonizedlyChunkySonata.mid // this is a surprisingly accurate name :P
00:12:51 <ehird> Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /var/www/masterpiecemachine/lib/autocomposer.php on line 59
00:13:01 <ehird> GregorR: can you unlimit it for a bit :D
00:13:07 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm not sure it's really invalid, it's just long?
00:13:12 <GregorR> ehird: TBH I don't even know how >_>
00:13:13 <zzo38> You can also use MIDI-Transmutation to remove the percussion afterward, if it can load that MIDI file. For some reason I don't know, MIDI-Transmutation will not load all MIDI files.
00:13:19 <oerjan> everything but / and NUL is allowed, isn't it
00:13:39 <ehird> GregorR: set_time_limit(9999999999999)
00:13:47 <ehird> less ridiculous value
00:14:18 <zzo38> You can run the PHP file on the command-line instead
00:14:57 <ehird> GregorR: Clicked, come back in 10 minutes.
00:15:20 <GregorR> 8130 codu 20 0 231m 37m 5096 R 98.2 3.7 1:51.24 apache2
00:15:27 <ehird> GregorR: *whistle*.
00:15:39 <zzo38> Did I make a mistake in the MIDI reading codes
00:15:45 <ehird> GregorR: Just pray to the nonexistent god that no noisy percussion will enter this beautiful ambient piece.
00:16:01 <ehird> Although that'd be ironic, and irony is fun, so maybe it'd be okay.
00:16:12 <ehird> GregorR: This is going to be the first multi-gigabyte midi file evar :P
00:16:25 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
00:16:33 <ehird> Still goin' for the first track.
00:16:36 <ehird> Shit better be good.
00:16:58 <ehird> GregorR: Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 120 seconds exceeded in /var/www/masterpiecemachine/lib/autocomposer.php on line 59
00:17:03 <ehird> That was not a large enough limit.
00:17:24 <ehird> GregorR: Just set it to something ginormous
00:17:31 <ehird> GregorR: Try set_time_limit(0)
00:17:35 <ehird> that'll remove all limits
00:18:08 <zzo38> ?everything ?equal channel 9 :delete
00:18:23 <ehird> GregorR: Shall I try again?
00:19:05 <ehird> GregorR: Why the fuck did you write this in PHP.
00:19:09 <zzo38> You should probably run it on a command-line if it takes a long time.
00:19:21 <GregorR> ehird: There are no good dynamic languages.
00:19:48 <ehird> GregorR: Python would do this in like 10x faster than PHP and 10x less shit code; Python is terrible but come on, *PHP*?
00:20:03 <zzo38> Web-service is just not a good way for these kind of long time software, there can be many problems with doing it that way
00:20:11 <ehird> zzo38: Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike........
00:20:23 <GregorR> ehird: I've never gotten comfortable enough with Python to be able to use it for ... well, anything really.
00:20:38 <zzo38> There can be problem of internet connection, or the browser to stop.
00:20:39 <ehird> GregorR: Gawd, just write it in C, I can't imagine it desperately needs the dynamism :P
00:20:49 <ehird> zzo38: That's irrelevant, this should take 10 minutes max
00:21:01 <zzo38> And anyways command-line just seems better for this kind of things.
00:21:16 <zzo38> O, only 10 minutes? You can try and see if it work.
00:21:24 <ehird> Tha's what I'm doing :P
00:21:28 <zzo38> If it doesn't work then you can try it on the command-line
00:21:37 <ehird> No, GregorR can. Or just not bother,
00:22:26 <ehird> GregorR: IT WORKED
00:22:32 * ehird downloads it for curiosity
00:22:40 <zzo38> Do you know how to write C codes to make interrupt for CTRL+BREAK in SDL programming (such as MegaZeux)?
00:22:52 <ehird> GregorR: actually 2:46
00:23:04 <ehird> and it downloaded more or less instantly so /shrug
00:23:08 <GregorR> ehird: lawl, my 120 guess was sooo close :P
00:23:11 <ehird> let's hope the rest of these are ambient enough
00:23:38 <ehird> GregorR: of php execution time; im talking about the track
00:23:52 <GregorR> I thought you were talking about execution time there, I'm el dum >_>
00:24:02 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, 2 hours suddenly passed in that brief interval.
00:24:02 <GregorR> I added support for changing volume. It's working well :)
00:24:45 <zzo38> Do you guess how I will wear in anime convention
00:24:55 <zzo38> I hope they have Magic:the Gathering cards this year
00:24:59 <GregorR> zzo38: Something terrifying I'm sure.
00:25:00 <ehird> zzo38: I'm... not bothered, to be utterly honest.
00:25:32 <zzo38> I was going to wear something else but I didn't have time.
00:25:41 <zzo38> So, I attached the ball and two signs to belt loop
00:25:48 <ehird> You told us, zzo38.
00:25:51 <zzo38> I made the signs in PowerPoint
00:26:11 <zzo38> So, I am the pokemon philosopher now!
00:26:40 <zzo38> PowerPoint wouldn't let me add all the guides
00:26:50 <ehird> GregorR: on to the third track
00:26:53 <ehird> some percussion got in but it's mild enough
00:27:41 <zzo38> Does PowerPoint has a limit the number of guides lines you can add onto the page?
00:27:54 <ehird> GregorR: The idea is that you should put a very long lasting music player inside your tomb and put this on loop.
00:28:05 <ehird> So you can have dreadful ambient music permeating your non-existent afterlife.
00:28:16 <ehird> Or at least until the player dies
00:28:18 <zzo38> And how long would the music player last, do you think it is?
00:28:49 <zzo38> I don't need a music like that on my tomb. I can play the music John Cage 4'33" at my funeral, I don't need someone living to do it for me.
00:29:17 <ehird> zzo38: Don't you hate your lack of consciousness
00:29:25 <ehird> Don't you want it to not suffer?!?!?!
00:29:35 <ehird> Fail to punish it with the in-tomb ambient musicalizer 2000!
00:29:45 <zzo38> Do I have a lack of consciousness? I seem not to have a lack of consciousness
00:30:25 <ehird> zzo38: Well, we're talking post-death here.
00:30:29 <zzo38> Did you know that I am building Forth codes into MegaZeux?
00:31:26 <ehird> GregorR: LAST TRACK COMPOSING!
00:31:37 <zzo38> I have seen some question written somewhere, what music do you want played at your funeral and who will play the music? I decided, I can play the music myself and it can be John Cage 4'33" music
00:31:37 <ehird> This will be awful.
00:31:45 <GregorR> ehird: Yes. Yes it will be :P
00:32:02 <ehird> GregorR: I should send it to Pitchfork media for review
00:32:23 <zzo38> Do you know MegaZeux at all? I can take suggestion or question/comment for my forked project of MegaZeux.
00:32:29 <ehird> "The Bermudan textures of this post-ironic landscape encompasses a velvety glove of compassion and detachment from reality"
00:33:52 <zzo38> What's a "post-ironic landscape" anyways, is that some kind of music I have never even heard of before
00:34:03 <zzo38> s/some kind/some new kijnd/
00:34:06 <zzo38> s/some kind/some new kind/
00:34:09 <ehird> zzo38: It's bullshit, but it's exactly the kind of thing Pitchfork would say :P
00:34:40 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Ambient+Melodrama+For+Your+Tomb
00:34:52 <ehird> Clicking it = lag as it mixes :P
00:35:27 <ehird> Floopee doob a dooba wha scha waa
00:35:28 * GregorR reverts to the 30 second time limit :P
00:35:39 <ehird> But then it won't be downloadable :P
00:35:49 * ehird sleeps while mixing
00:35:54 <ehird> this may take a while
00:36:02 <oerjan> <zzo38> I have seen some question written somewhere, what music do you want played at your funeral and who will play the music? I decided, I can play the music myself and it can be John Cage 4'33" music <-- brilliant :D
00:36:19 <ehird> i want jesus to be at my funeral and go
00:36:32 <ehird> "He was my second coming and was totally kick-ass." and then play a rubbish metal song.
00:36:44 <ehird> It would be delightfully meaningless, lame and rubbish.
00:37:07 <oerjan> ehird: you realize zzo38's suggestion could actually work, though?
00:38:19 <ehird> GregorR: Uh, this mixing is taking a long time.
00:38:29 <zzo38> MEMBER OF ANTI-MASTER-BALLS
00:38:39 <zzo38> POCKET MONSTER PHILOSOPHICAL LEVEL 111
00:38:56 * oerjan wonders where oklopol is these days
00:39:00 <GregorR> ehird: It shouldn't, the mixing is all C ....
00:39:07 <zzo38> Is *(char*)0=0; a proper way to crash a C program so that it will break into the debugger
00:39:14 <ehird> oerjan: too busy being 20 and having sex, I guess
00:39:41 <ehird> GregorR: Is it working for you?
00:40:07 <zzo38> I know *(char*)0=0; works because I have tested it, but is there a better way
00:40:34 <Asztal> a manual breakpoint? (interrupt 3)
00:40:39 <zzo38> I have #ifdef DEBUG case 0x042: { /* CRASHMZX */ *(char*)0=0; break; } #endif
00:41:04 <zzo38> And is it cross-platform compatible
00:41:19 <ehird> GregorR: what's the one you liked again?
00:42:04 <ehird> GregorR: Fix dat mixin'
00:42:28 <GregorR> Gimme a sec, I'm fixing things less irrelevant than mixing multi-hour MIDIs.
00:44:47 <oerjan> <zzo38> What's a "post-ironic landscape" anyways <-- whatever we'll be living in when the age of irony finally ends, i assume
00:45:41 <oerjan> if it ever does. and if anyone survives it ending.
00:50:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:54:36 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/haxfsj/FarcicallyBrawnyFugue.mid // haven't decided whether I like this one yet.
00:55:09 <ehird> GregorR: it's good
00:55:18 <ehird> i love my aesthetic senses, they can pick up anything
01:06:36 <GregorR> The "state of the art" is online now.
01:08:42 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:09:02 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Roe+v_+Wade+As+An+Analogy+For+Temperature
01:09:30 <ehird> When will Melodrama mix? :-P
01:09:53 <oerjan> global warming is killing unborn children?
01:10:05 <ehird> psygnisfive: My titles are designed for absurdity.
01:13:26 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:48:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
01:51:36 <GregorR> As it turns out, there's more to having a theme than just repeating stuff randomly :P
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02:37:40 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Amateurishly+Legal+Fugue
02:46:17 -!- amca has joined.
03:01:50 <GregorR> -NickServ- Nicks : GregorR-L \x1B[2J You`re GregorR potatoes GregorR-W pound_define behypercubed _ZN6Gregor1REd
03:01:51 <GregorR> -NickServ- Nicks : _D6Gregor1RFeZi ifndef_GREGOR_H TravelGreaseGod vsnprintf
03:01:56 <GregorR> Which nicks do I need to keep.
03:22:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:24:34 <oerjan> don't you dare step in my potato field!
03:34:32 <GregorR> Bleh, they deleted 'em already :P
03:35:12 <oerjan> the deletions were yesterday, weren't they?
03:35:45 <GregorR> -NickServ- Nicks : GregorR-L GregorR TravelGreaseGod vsnprintf
04:39:27 -!- coppro has joined.
05:00:20 <warrie> My current nick is not registered.
05:00:59 <oerjan> um whois says you are, on account ihope no less
05:01:15 -!- oerjan has changed nick to test123.
05:01:18 <coppro> oerjan: he may be logged in but not registered
05:01:22 <warrie> Notice that "warrie" was not in that list.
05:01:40 -!- test123 has changed nick to oerjan.
05:01:54 <warrie> Also, "- warrie is not registered."
05:02:26 * pikhq still has his grouped nicks
05:02:28 <oerjan> oh right, "is identified to services" and "is signed on as account ..." are two different lines
05:02:49 <warrie> From now on, I shall change nicks daily.
05:03:04 <psygnisfive> the piraha of brazil change their names every few months.
05:03:32 <oerjan> i made sure to use oerjan_ a moment yesterday
05:03:52 <pikhq> I didn't have to make sure; I actually did log on as pikhq_ yesterday. :P
05:04:04 <psygnisfive> so whats this policy issue we're talking about now?
05:04:46 <oerjan> warrie: what would have been more amusing was if "ihope" had been deregistered, i don't see you using it much. i wonder what would have happened.
05:04:49 <warrie> My next nicks will be the following: Saites, Ankulos, Klepto, Aeros, Laodikeia, Kenkhreai, Sarpedon.
05:05:06 <warrie> I didn't make sure to log in as anything.
05:05:17 <oerjan> psygnisfive: just freenode's nick and channel purging from yesterday
05:05:31 <oerjan> if you haven't used a nick in a long time, it will be gone now
05:06:14 <warrie> You know, I didn't know that the Greek letter gamma could correspond to an "n". Is it only an ng n, or can it be plain n as well?
05:06:22 <warrie> Or am I acting as if I had been lied to?
05:07:13 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i don't know whether there was any policy change, other than that there is now a way to log in to your account even if you are not using your normal nicks
05:07:35 <oerjan> warrie: i've also read that double gamma is ng-n
05:07:43 -!- warrie has changed nick to Saties.
05:07:48 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur.
05:07:49 -!- Saties has changed nick to Saites.
05:07:51 <oerjan> i cannot recall anything more than that.
05:07:59 <Saites> This shall me by Thursday nick.
05:08:09 <oerjan> oh maybe something about tt vs. ss due to dialect differences
05:08:12 <augur> how do i log out of a nick?
05:08:46 <augur> ive told nickserv "hey listen its me using this nick, its ok"
05:08:51 <augur> "plz dont boot me in 30 seconds"
05:09:09 <oerjan> augur: um augur is not your nick is it?
05:09:27 <oerjan> so it was released yesterday too?
05:09:44 <augur> the cunt who had it was never online EVER and i couldnt get the nick
05:10:14 <oerjan> augur: if he had been away for 60 days you could get it by asking, even before the purge
05:10:24 <oerjan> and if he hadn't, it shouldn't have been purged
05:10:41 <augur> pfft. i tried but noone was ever fucking able to tell me what to do
05:11:05 <augur> FINALLY i can have my fucking nick
05:11:14 * Saites notes that lilo is still registered, with the "Hold" flag.
05:11:16 <GregorR> augur: You couldn't find anybody to tell you /join #freenode ? :P
05:11:26 <augur> gregorr: i had done
05:11:26 <GregorR> Saites: I noted that as well.
05:11:34 <augur> but noone THERE knew what the fuck i could do
05:11:48 <Saites> Nobody there told you to /stats p?
05:22:37 -!- Where has joined.
05:22:50 * Where in the world is Gregor Richards? 8-D
05:23:02 -!- Where has changed nick to When.
05:23:18 -!- When has changed nick to Why.
05:23:44 -!- Why has left (?).
05:24:01 <oerjan> yo dawg, i heard you like gregor richards, so we put a gregor richards in you so you can, erm, something.
05:24:40 <GregorR> Excuse me while I make myself the king of /me-sentences :P
05:26:11 -!- augur has changed nick to Where.
05:26:21 * Where in the world is Carmen San Diego? 8-D
05:26:23 -!- Where has changed nick to augur.
05:26:31 -!- That has joined.
05:26:45 * That I am the king of /me-nicks is undisputable.
05:27:02 -!- That has changed nick to Every.
05:27:11 -!- augur has changed nick to Suddenly.
05:27:15 * Every good /me nick belongs to me!
05:27:18 -!- Suddenly has changed nick to augur.
05:27:36 <augur> every, you have chosen a nice nick.
05:27:49 -!- Every has changed nick to Why.
05:27:58 * Why would you say this is silly?
05:28:13 -!- oerjan has changed nick to And.
05:28:23 * And this one is just to annoy ehird
05:28:36 -!- And has changed nick to oerjan.
05:29:02 * Saites is a singular common noun and therefore cannot occur at the beginning of a sentence.
05:29:16 <Why> Minus the "common" part.
05:29:30 -!- Why has changed nick to When.
05:29:56 <augur> singular nouns can appear at the beginning of a sentence
05:30:32 <augur> tho i believe what you really mean is that semantically singular non-mass nouns in english require non-zero determiners.
05:30:49 -!- When has left (?).
05:31:10 <Saites> Actually, "Saites" might be an adjective. I don't really know.
05:31:21 <augur> adjectives can begin sentences.
05:31:38 * Saites people are always from Egypt.
05:31:50 <augur> what does saites mean anyway
05:31:53 <Saites> Or maybe it's a singular adjective.
05:31:56 <augur> and what languae is it
05:32:02 <augur> english does not have number in adjectives.
05:32:11 <Saites> It's Greek for "from Sais, Egypt".
05:32:22 -!- Your has joined.
05:32:24 <augur> ah. so then you shouldnt be using it in english :D
05:32:31 * Your BRAIN IS ON FIRE!!!
05:32:49 <augur> why are you yelling in only part of the sentence?
05:32:56 -!- Your has changed nick to NetHack.
05:33:02 <augur> guys have i mentioned my Brief History of Grammar?
05:33:47 <oerjan> hm -ites is the same as english -ite, right?
05:34:12 <oerjan> so you would at least drop the -s when using it in english
05:34:20 <oerjan> unless you pluralize it
05:34:37 <augur> he said "Sais" means egypt
05:34:59 <augur> "It's Greek for "from Sais, Egypt".
05:35:13 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sais
05:35:14 <augur> unless sais is a citty in egypt
05:35:17 -!- NetHack has changed nick to slashdot.
05:35:19 <augur> in which case it doesnt matter
05:35:24 <augur> since the point is the word is "sais"
05:35:39 -!- slashdot has changed nick to SlashDot.
05:35:45 <augur> so it could be sais + es
05:35:59 <augur> and s becomes t before the -es 'from' suffix
05:36:01 -!- SlashDot has changed nick to Slashdot.
05:36:24 <oerjan> well is -es or -ites the from suffix?
05:36:26 -!- Slashdot has left (?).
05:36:45 <augur> is ihope greek/fluent in greek?
05:36:58 <oerjan> i was more hoping you were
05:37:04 -!- Smalltalk has joined.
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05:37:28 -!- Smalltalk has changed nick to Fortran.
05:37:29 -!- Smalltalk-80 has changed nick to Squeak.
05:37:40 <GregorR> :NickServ!NickServ@services. NOTICE Fortran :You have too many nicks registered already.
05:37:45 <GregorR> :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
05:37:54 -!- Squeak has changed nick to augur.
05:38:02 <augur> '*** Notice -- Too many nick changes; wait 0 seconds before trying again'
05:38:14 <GregorR> Apparently 20 is the limit.
05:38:20 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
05:39:25 -!- Fortran has changed nick to Beagleboard.
05:39:26 <oerjan> "The Dynasty's reign (c. 685-525 BC) is also called the Saite Period after the city of Sais"
05:39:30 -!- Beagleboard has left (?).
05:39:36 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saite
05:39:43 <augur> have i ever mentioned how much i hate PHP
05:39:47 <augur> because i hate pgp
05:40:08 <oerjan> pretty hopeless privacy
05:40:32 <augur> pretty hopeless programming, more like it
05:40:38 <augur> php added goto recently, ISNT THAT SWELL?
05:40:47 <augur> granted its a limited goto but
05:41:04 <augur> even so, its trashy.
05:42:23 -!- write has joined.
05:43:16 -!- write has changed nick to read.
05:43:27 -!- GregorR has changed nick to write.
05:43:32 <write> I am quite seriously changing my nick.
05:43:36 <write> For the first time in ever.
05:43:42 <oerjan> roses are read, violets blew
05:44:11 <oerjan> this is a time of great changes
05:44:21 <oerjan> in a week i won't remember who _anyone_ is
05:44:58 <augur> i already dont, oerjan
05:45:25 <write> There are so many juicy unowned nicks.
05:45:29 -!- read has left (?).
05:46:10 <write> ARGH. cc is unowned.
05:46:18 <write> I could be the C compiler!
05:46:32 <oerjan> 2 letters are allowed?
05:46:37 <myndzi\> hah. they just expired em eh
05:46:39 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
05:46:53 <myndzi> 1 letter is allowed .... but probably taken
05:49:04 <write> Hm, I could be Codu, too.
05:49:58 <Saites> I know very little Greek.
05:50:09 <oerjan> how much code could codu code if codu could code code
05:50:46 <write> Codu can code code, biatch!
05:51:00 <write> Woodchuck is free :P
05:51:45 <myndzi> all these nicks dropped so everyone is going to go suck them up again and not use them?
05:51:50 <oerjan> how should i know? \o/
05:52:02 <write> Hey, I'm using one!
05:53:16 <oerjan> what myndzi needs is some precognition /o\
05:53:41 <oerjan> that doesn't really work
05:53:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
05:54:12 <cpressey> This would be a cool moment if you ignore the hostmask ;)
05:54:16 * oerjan swats the fake cpressey -----###
05:54:32 <cpressey> I should register it for ... protective purposes?
05:55:09 <oerjan> what about people standing on their head? \<
05:55:11 <cpressey> Anybody trawling a log with no host info, <-- GregorR, not really cpressey
05:56:00 <cpressey> Hey, at least I said so myself :P
05:56:37 -!- cpressey has changed nick to graue.
05:56:53 <graue> Surely graue has been on recently enough not to lose his nick???
05:57:23 <oerjan> he is here extremely rarely
05:57:40 <oerjan> he doesn't even show up on the wiki these days unless you mail him
05:59:43 <write> We should all change our nicks to open, close, read, write, pipe and go hang out in ##unix.
06:01:26 <write> I see nobody else finds this idea awesome :P
06:02:24 -!- graue has changed nick to make.
06:02:32 <make> So many good nicks, so little time D-8
06:02:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("fork").
06:03:36 <Saites> And I have still only changed my nick once.
06:03:57 <write> I've only made one as-yet-unreversed nick change :P
06:08:13 <write> More unowned nicks: html, porn, Solaris (but in use), Stalin, ussr, two, three, four, email, NickHoarder
06:08:57 <myndzi> any of you dudes wanna help me with a hardware conundrum?
06:09:08 <myndzi> i've got a PSU that has a 24 pin connector with 4 pins detachable
06:09:18 <myndzi> (for 20 / 4 motherboards)
06:09:28 <myndzi> but the motherboard has a 24 pin and also a 4 pin connector
06:09:43 <myndzi> both are new purchases, shit wouldn't power on with just the 24 pins connected
06:09:51 <myndzi> well it would, but it wouldn't do anything
06:10:21 * write has no hardware knowledge.
06:11:25 <write> More unowned nicks: Leela, Bender, Zoidberg, Hermes, Zapp, Kif
06:13:52 * write just typed /whois god
06:14:06 <myndzi> i'm a budget sorta guy so i only ever do this every few years
06:14:09 <myndzi> seems there's always something new
06:14:19 <augur> real name, unknown!
06:14:24 <myndzi> this time i apparently missed that i am supposed to plug an 8 pin lead from the PSU into the 4 pin port on the mobo o_O
06:15:48 <myndzi> luckily i didn't try detaching the 4 pin thing from the 24 pin thing and using it! coulda messed things up :(
06:16:23 <write> More unowned nicks: admin, op, unix, glibc, fast, calorimeter
06:16:28 <write> And now, to sleep X-P
06:16:33 -!- make has quit.
06:16:45 <write> You might find yourself losing that nick :P
06:17:04 <myndzi> losing my nick? no, it is safely registered
06:17:20 <write> Nono, I meant "op"
06:17:22 <write> If you were to take it.
06:17:34 <myndzi> but i don't know why someone would take it from me if i regged it
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06:23:05 -!- Microsoft has joined.
06:23:27 * Saites quickly /whos Microsoft before he can drop any of his connections
06:23:43 <Saites> You are Microsoft and write.
06:24:22 <Saites> I am Saites and loggic.
06:24:50 <Saites> Except I don't actually know who loggic is.
06:25:02 -!- Microsoft has quit (Client Quit).
06:27:13 <Saites> It's fun to /who your hostname and see who else is connected from your computer!
06:33:13 <augur> i think itd be useful to develop some sort of metalanguage that makes it trivially easy to experiment with proglang design
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08:52:55 <augur> is there an HLL that compiles to BF?
09:47:25 <fizzie> There's gcc-bf, which I guess doesn't yet quite work? (And if you want an H-er HLL, quite a lot of things can be compiled to C.)
09:48:24 <fizzie> And bfbasic, of course, though that might be even less H.
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10:52:51 <augur> what about a compiler-to-a-TM?
10:52:59 <augur> ive been tempted to write one of those for the fun of it
10:56:04 <fizzie> Haven't heard of one, but that's no conclusive evidence either way.
10:57:39 <fizzie> For to-BF compilation, there's C2BF too; I have no first-hand experience on how complete that one is. gcc-bf gets the whole GCC compilation magic for free, of course, so it's probably the best choice assuming (a) it is made to work at some point and (b) you don't mind rather large output programs.
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11:22:29 <augur> i feel that compilation to BF or a TM is too easy
11:22:34 <augur> compilation to befunge!
11:26:43 <fizzie> That's not too hard either unless you start taking aesthetics into account.
11:27:42 <fizzie> I've written at least one BF to Befunge translator (can't remember why right now), so if you can compile to BF, you can compile to Befunge.
11:28:22 <fizzie> Compilation to some sort of befunge-as-written-by-a-skillful-human is another thing, of course.
11:32:14 <ais523> augur: there's a Scheme to Befunge-98 compiler lying around somewhere
11:32:40 <augur> yeah i guess a to-befunge compiler could just use a bunch of generic constructs
11:33:34 <augur> we should try to make a language that is incredibly difficult to compile into, but not difficult to code in
11:33:55 <augur> just so very different than most other languages that translation requires significant conceptual changes
11:35:51 <augur> even the imperative-to-functional translation isnt conceptually difficult, right
11:36:13 <augur> because you can simulate all your state with a giant state dictionary that you map over
11:36:49 <augur> something like x = x + 1 is actually a map that leaves everything unchanged except the x entry, which gets mapped to x + 1
11:37:13 <augur> which is actually how haskells state monad works, i think
11:37:23 <augur> so what would be a truly difficult translation, thats what i wonder
11:37:32 <augur> maybe imperative to declarative?
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11:38:47 <ais523> imperative to declarative isn't as hard as it looks
11:39:00 <ais523> the most painful bit is replacing the loops with recursion, and assignments with SSA
11:39:13 <ais523> but that can be done automatically, I think
11:39:17 <augur> but declarative doesnt really have recursion
11:39:36 <ais523> it has enough recursion to construct a loop
11:39:44 <ais523> even if it doesn't have anywhere near like functional-power recursion
11:39:56 <augur> i didnt think prolog had any sort of recursion except proof-related sorts
11:40:02 <fizzie> Prolog is a bit declarative, and it certainly can be written in a very imperative way. I did that Scheme interpreter.
11:40:12 <ais523> augur: a predicate can refer to itself
11:40:21 <augur> truth conditional recursive structures
11:40:21 <ais523> which works more or less the same way as a function calling itself
11:40:39 <ais523> in fact, recursion in Prolog > recursion in Scheme sometimes, because you can make things tail-recursive that wouldn't be in a functional language
11:40:56 <augur> so what is a difficult translation D:
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11:47:42 <fizzie> Since I had this link in the history, here's the Scheme-to-Befunge one: http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html
11:48:01 <fizzie> It pretty much forgets about the 2d-aspect, puts all code on one line and uses x to move around.
11:48:42 <fizzie> So it's not very spirit-of-Funge.
11:48:59 <augur> if i were writing a compiler, i'd use the second dimension for achieving things like loops and conditionals
11:49:21 <augur> anything where code is not simply sequential
11:50:01 <fizzie> The BF-to-Befunge I had turned each "[...]" into "translate ..., then use the next free line for the 'return path' of the loop".
11:50:16 <ais523> much like Braktif, then
11:50:23 <ais523> which was a BF-to-cellular-automaton compiler
11:50:28 <augur> bf-to-b seems easier
11:50:39 <augur> i mean, befunge seems to be a superset of bf functionality
11:50:47 <augur> to some extent, anyway
11:50:50 <ais523> befunge doesn't exactly have a tape
11:50:55 <ais523> although there are ways to emulate one
11:50:59 <fizzie> There's the space, though.
11:51:00 <ais523> like using p and g, or the stack stack
11:51:15 <fizzie> I did p/g with the index-of-tape always at top-of-stack.
11:51:38 <augur> a stack with two stacks could do a tape trivially
11:51:48 <fizzie> Funge-98 has a stack of stacks, and you can move elements from the topmost to the one under it. That's very tape-like.
11:51:58 <augur> yeah, thats a tape.
11:53:25 <augur> id really like to see more conceptually difficult languages, and not so much simply tediously difficult languages
11:53:52 <fizzie> String-rewriting languages are fun to write in.
11:53:54 <augur> bf and befunge and so forth are just pains to code, they're not necessarily conceptually difficult
11:54:01 <augur> string rewriting languages?
11:54:05 <augur> meaning what, exactly?
11:54:07 <ais523> their main problem is that they're so /slow/
11:54:14 <ais523> but it's a good paradigm to work in
11:54:18 <augur> so you mean just formal grammars.
11:54:28 <ais523> also, certain problems with making sure things are unique
11:54:41 <augur> i find that formal grammars are so close to TMs in how you achieve certain things
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11:54:55 <ais523> also, formal grammars are a sort of rewriting lang
11:55:02 <ais523> but there are rewriting langs that aren't formal grammars
11:55:06 <ais523> like Thutu, for instance
11:55:15 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thutu
11:55:30 <ais523> I should get around to standardising a Thutu wimpmode, sometime
11:55:40 <ais523> apart from the efficiency penalty, it's a really nice lang to program in
11:55:44 <ais523> I made Thutubot that way
11:56:18 <augur> i dont entirely follow
11:56:28 <augur> but i get the feeling that thutu is not simply a rewriting system
11:56:38 <ais523> it's still a rewriting-based language
11:56:41 <ais523> rewriting's a paradigm
11:56:54 <ais523> yes, it isn't as pure as Thue; but that doesn't make it a different paradigm
11:57:05 <ais523> just like Lisp isn't quite as pure as Haskell, but that doesn't prevent it being functional
11:57:23 <augur> in my mind, a rewriting system is pure rewriting, nothing else.
11:57:46 <augur> but then, i come from a more theoretical perspective
11:58:00 <ais523> I suppose you can distinguish the tarpit from the paradigm
11:58:06 <ais523> e.g. not all imperative languages are Brainfuck
11:58:44 <augur> it just seems like there are aspects of coding thutu that arent rewriting, and these seem to be important core features
11:58:49 <augur> but im not reading the whole thing so
11:59:00 <ais523> it's basically just contextualisation
11:59:09 <ais523> you could replace the IP by a rewriting-based one too if you wanted to
11:59:13 <augur> i need to get to sleep tho dude
11:59:14 <ais523> but that would be less efficient for no reason
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12:23:08 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/509534
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13:33:04 <fizzie> From a PHP-based website (with ~30 minutes between them, and a reload fixed it both times) I got two "fatal error" messages: "Non-static method (null)::@o/b.() cannot be called statically" and "Non-static method (null):: **.() cannot be called statically". It almost looks like some sort of esolang.
13:58:40 <write> Discovered the problem with this nick ;P
14:01:58 <write> The word "write" has meanings other than me :P
14:02:07 <write> So all my tabs are highlighted with unrelated conversations >_>
14:02:42 <oerjan> there had to be a reason it wasn't taken already...
14:03:13 -!- write has changed nick to GregorR.
14:03:20 <GregorR> Well, that was a fun experiment anyway :P
14:07:37 <fizzie> Oh, you were you. I didn't know.
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15:03:56 <whtspc> somebody knows about boolean algebra?
15:06:46 <whtspc> I'm quite new to the subject, but I understand that with a bunch of nand gates you can create any gate, and circuit
15:07:30 <ais523> well, any digital circuit
15:07:41 <whtspc> So if 'n' is a NAND-gate and A and B are switches or wires
15:07:55 <ais523> you can do it with nor gates too, but NAND gates happen to be easier to put onto a chip
15:08:05 <ais523> due to there being a type of transistor that more or less does a NAND
15:08:38 <ais523> and if you make that sort of transistor in reverse so as to get a NOR, the resulting device characteristics are completely different from the normal ones
15:08:38 <whtspc> (AnA(AnB))n(An(BnB) would be a circuit I could draw
15:08:55 <whtspc> yes and I read NAND-gates are cheaper?
15:08:56 <ais523> it would be if the parens matched, and you removed the second occurrence of A
15:09:17 <ais523> yep, as long as you want them to obey the normal characteristics of ICs
15:09:43 <ais523> such as 0 being more readily available as the positive rail, asymmetric distribution of thresholds on TTL, etc
15:09:50 <whtspc> ok, I just typed something with A's B's and n's
15:09:53 <ais523> actually, with modern CMOS devices, NAND and NOR are the same way
15:10:01 <ais523> because they're done the same way
15:10:16 <ais523> but NAND was easier in the days of TTL, so the concept of using NAND rather than NOR stuck
15:10:22 <whtspc> that's all a bit above my head :?
15:10:25 <ais523> and nowadays, NAND's slightly cheaper than NOR for economic reasons
15:10:44 <ais523> because the semiconductor companies want people to all order the same chip, rather than mix between NAND and NOR, for stock reasons
15:10:54 <ais523> so they make NOR marginally more expensive so everyone goes for the NAND
15:12:00 <whtspc> I wonder if I can make a statement in boolean algebra that reads this circuit:http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/images/rs-110.gif
15:14:08 <asiekierka> Basically, the result of the bottom NAND goes as the second parameter of the top NAND
15:14:20 <asiekierka> and the result of the top NAND goes as the first parameter of the bottom NAND
15:16:14 <whtspc> http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/AoA/DOS/pdf/ch02.pdf
15:16:30 <whtspc> was pretty readable I thought
15:17:24 <asiekierka> Well, wouldn't it create an infinite loop
15:17:38 <ais523> in order to do a latch, you need a loop
15:17:43 <ais523> otherwise, how could it remember anything?
15:18:41 <whtspc> every topic on boolean algebra stops where it gets interesting in my point of view
15:18:54 <whtspc> at the point where the latches come in
15:19:22 <whtspc> it makes me think you can't describe a latch within one statement
15:19:23 <ais523> well, basically, the idea is this: if you have a loop in a practical circuit
15:19:36 <ais523> then if there's exactly one value for elements in the loop that doesn't lead to a contradiction, it takes that value
15:19:45 <ais523> if there's more than one, it takes the value it last had (if that one's legal)
15:19:58 <ais523> if there are zero, things get rather fun but into the scope of practical electronics, rather than boolean algebra
15:25:47 <whtspc> If I try to describe to picture of the NAND-latch, and name the upperwire A and the other one B
15:25:49 <whtspc> An(Bn(An(Bn(An(Bn(An ....
15:25:50 <whtspc> I want to be sure I'm trying to do something that's impossible,
15:25:52 <whtspc> but I hope I make a stupid mistake.
15:26:04 <ais523> whtspc: it's because you can't write loops as a function like that
15:26:13 <ais523> you're trying to unroll there
15:26:16 <ais523> whereas you need to recurse
15:27:02 <whtspc> But would an additional element in the piece of text make it possible you think?
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15:27:35 <ais523> yes, the usual way to do something like that would be f=Ang, g=Bnf
15:27:47 <ais523> where f and g are functions, which both reference each other
15:28:25 <whtspc> multiple statements, I see
15:30:15 <whtspc> and in this case, if you would read it/parse it and you encounter g for the first time in function f, would you simply consider g as false (0)?
15:31:08 <ais523> whtspc: no, it takes its previous value
15:31:26 <ais523> if it didn't have a previous value, in practice it's generally determined by things like random electrostatic drif
15:31:50 <ais523> this is why most practical circuits normally have resets, as I was telling ehird yesterday
15:32:01 <ais523> because you don't know what values your latches initialized too
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15:33:19 <whtspc> I see, that's an answer I understand :)
15:34:03 <GregorR-L> Whatever it is you're referring to.
15:34:12 <ais523> so the answer is, until you've forced the circuit to one value in particular (by doing an operation that causes both values to become that value), you have no clue what value's there
15:34:33 <ais523> this explains one of the nine values of VHDL's booleans: U means that you've just switched the circuit on and as yet, the value there is unknown
15:35:54 <whtspc> does this mean you can't create a programming language that solely exist out of a clock and nand gates,
15:36:09 <ais523> you can; you just have to come up with a clever method to do initialisation
15:36:17 <ais523> you generally need a reset input from somewhere
15:36:31 <ais523> practical computers use the rate of change of the power supply; if you didn't have power a second ago but you do now, reset
15:36:55 <ais523> (and some have reset buttons on the front too, but nowadays computer-makers tend not to add those)
15:37:43 <whtspc> if that reset would be that every unknown 'variable' the program pointer encounters == false wouldn't work?
15:38:13 <ais523> the reset's normally wired up to the set-to-0 wires of the latches
15:38:27 <whtspc> so in case of the f = Ang, g = unknown so 0
15:38:33 <ais523> as in, on the set-to-0 input, you put (reset OR user wants setting to 0)
15:38:48 <whtspc> not that I can program interpreters :)
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15:39:02 <ais523> so to start with, you have f = A n g, g = A n f
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15:39:16 <ais523> when not setting, A = 1, B = 1
15:39:27 <ais523> so f = 1 n U = U, g = 1 n U = U
15:39:37 <ais523> now, say you reset by changing A to 0
15:39:45 <ais523> then, f = 0 n U = 1, g = 1 n 1 = 0
15:39:53 <ais523> and you've got the unknown data out of your system
15:40:12 <ais523> (0 nand U = 1 because 0 nand 1 = 1 and 0 nand 0 = 1)
15:40:59 <whtspc> That makes a lot more sense now,
15:41:39 <whtspc> I only have to let it come down to me for a while,
15:41:48 <whtspc> but thank you, you're great!
15:44:45 <ais523> well, I'm an electrical and computer engineer in RL
15:44:50 <ais523> so this is my day job to know
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15:50:15 <whtspc> I'll try not to bother with your work anymore :) , weekend just started
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18:13:57 <asiekierka> I need to do a NAND esolang lat---wait, Circute
18:17:42 <pikhq> Just futz with Wireworld.
18:18:19 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a pretty nice CA.
18:18:24 <GregorR-L> Somebody should make a (somehow) smaller version of Wireworld and call it Wireland.
18:19:02 <asiekierka> Someone should make something like an Etch-a-Sketch with a WireWorld emulator inside
18:19:16 <pikhq> Probably add a semiconductor, so as to get smaller logic.
18:20:17 <pikhq> Man. We are growing organs *right now*.
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18:20:51 <asiekierka> you could etch the WireWorld computer on it
18:21:10 <pikhq> Not merely "Oh, we grew a few organs in a lab, they look about right".
18:21:16 <lifthrasiir> how about Brainfuck-to-WireWorld compiler?
18:21:20 <pikhq> Clinical trials are nearly over.
18:21:47 <asiekierka> what about Brainfuck-to-Circute (easier) and then Circute-to-Wireworld
18:21:51 <lifthrasiir> it should take 10^8 generations for one instruction... :p
18:23:08 <pikhq> How about Brainfuck in Wireworld?
18:23:18 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: it can take much shorter at expense of space, though.
18:25:24 <asiekierka> Did anyone implement a transistor in Wireworld?
18:27:04 <pikhq> Honestly, don't know.
18:28:01 <pikhq> I *do* know that there's a register machine in it.
18:28:08 <ais523> transistors are essentially analog
18:28:12 <ais523> and wireworld's digital
18:28:19 <asiekierka> I want to make an esolang that operates only on transistors
18:28:20 <ais523> you could implement a gate, but gates don't have all the features of transistors
18:28:37 <ais523> asiekierka: transistors are believed to be the most practical way to write noit o' mnain worb programs
18:30:31 <ais523> asiekierka: look it up on Esolang
18:30:38 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure how to encode that offhand
18:35:11 <pikhq> ais523: I'm not entirely sure what that stream of letters means.
18:35:24 <pikhq> “noit o' mnain worb”?
18:35:31 <pikhq> “noit o' mnain worb”‽
18:35:46 <ais523> pikhq: it's the name of an esolang
18:57:31 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: I know now.
18:57:51 <pikhq> To prove this, I shall make a comment about a hot cup of tea.
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19:48:55 -!- ehird has set topic: SPIC: We spell the computer of the spirits with our conjours | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:49:13 <ehird> noit o' mnain worb is such a lovely name
19:50:41 <ehird> wireworld could be so much cooler
19:51:12 <ehird> i have some ideas for a nicer CA circuit thingy but probably ais523 would tell me that's how circuits work IRL>
19:51:21 <ehird> and i wouldn't have invented it any more.
19:53:34 <ehird> it basically involves lanes that little cells can go on, and if you hit a crossroad (= logic gate) it changes and you go somewhere
19:55:01 <ehird> (^ then goes off this snippet of the screen)
19:57:03 <ais523> that's rather different from real circuits
19:58:01 <ehird> ais523: I'm not sure it's a cellular automata, as things need to travel on paths, and cells can only affect cells that hit them (and often transform themselves in the process, or release new sparks)
19:58:09 <ehird> just more complex than usual
19:58:20 <ais523> see Wireworld for how to do that as a CA
19:59:10 <ehird> ais523: i was talking about wireworld before that...
19:59:17 <ehird> ais523: but wireworld is too CA and not circuit-y enough imo :P
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20:04:36 <ehird> http://www.zen6741.zen.co.uk/wi-gifs/block.gif
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20:07:58 <whtspc> ehird: http://www.rezmason.net/wireworld/
20:07:58 <ehird> is there a reversible, turing complete CA?
20:08:06 <ehird> 20:04 ehird: http://www.zen6741.zen.co.uk/wi-gifs/block.gif
20:08:08 <ehird> 20:04 ehird: that's beautiful.
20:08:12 <ehird> I was using that :)
20:08:54 <ehird> whtspc: i mean, it didn't calculate one prime in like 5 minutes
20:09:21 <whtspc> I've never see it do anything too
20:09:34 <ehird> whtspc: the java version on the site http://quinapalus.com/ calculated "3"
20:09:38 <ehird> but is laggy and crap
20:11:18 <whtspc> and the javascript interpreter: http://people.bath.ac.uk/amg24/ma10126/wireworld/simulator.html sucks too
20:11:35 <ehird> and w/ golly you can only paint one colour in it for some reason
20:12:34 <FireFly> golly works alright for me
20:12:42 <ehird> FireFly: try it for wireworld
20:12:46 <ehird> you can only paint one colour
20:12:46 <FireFly> http://216.14.122.182/images/66602tmp2.png
20:12:49 <ehird> and that colour as a circle
20:12:52 <ehird> which is fucked up
20:12:52 <FireFly> It prints FireFly in some ways
20:13:05 <ehird> FireFly: how do you paint a colour other than blue
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20:13:45 <FireFly> http://216.14.122.182/images/7037tmp3.png
20:13:58 <ehird> oh hm i've used that bar before
20:14:02 <FireFly> ^ Just click on the colours
20:14:03 <ehird> guess i need to re-put it thar
20:14:07 <ehird> it's not showing y'see
20:18:48 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Wireworld_XOR-gate.gif
20:18:51 <ehird> i can't get this to work
20:18:57 <ehird> my clocks produce one and then give up
20:19:15 <ehird> FireFly: give that firefly thing as a Golly file?
20:21:36 <FireFly> http://firefly.nu/diverse/wi_screen-imp-2.6.rle
20:22:12 <FireFly> But at least it made the programming lessons more interesting
20:22:34 <ehird> FireFly: mah screen isn't big neough to keep it all zoomed in!
20:23:18 <ehird> FireFly: erm you have no connections to the screen
20:23:53 <ehird> FireFly: the ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP
20:24:05 <FireFly> Meh, that one is just a copy of the real one
20:24:26 <FireFly> It was just to simplify which lines toggled which segments
20:24:30 <ehird> FireFly: ohh it makes pictures!
20:24:34 <ehird> i thought it just lit up the letters
20:24:36 <ehird> that is impressive.
20:24:40 <FireFly> It's supposed to print out "FireFly"
20:25:26 <ehird> ais523: x86 in WireWorld.
20:25:32 <ehird> ais523: And how, you say?
20:25:37 <ehird> ais523: VHDL→WireWorld compiler. You may now scream.
20:26:01 <ehird> ais523: Actually, that might be quite possible, mightn't it?
20:26:05 <ehird> Or at least a VHDL-like tarpit.
20:26:26 <ais523> such as the synthesizable set of VHDL
20:26:36 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but more tarpitty.
20:26:56 <ais523> that is pretty tarpitty
20:27:12 <ehird> ais523: But not enough for an esoproject.
20:30:17 <MigoMipo> http://www.opensparc.net/ I want to be able to synthesize that into WireWorld!
20:30:58 <ehird> SPARC is for lamers.
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20:58:42 <ehird> ais523: how easy do you think it would be?
20:58:57 <ais523> probably about as hard as gcc-bf
20:59:14 <ehird> ais523: huh? you can do things like clocks in wireworld with like 15 cells
21:00:09 <ais523> yes, parsing and tarpitting the VHDL would be the hard part I imagine
21:00:23 <ehird> ais523: when i meant tarpit, I of course meant an easy-to-parse variation
21:00:31 <ehird> You don't need all of VHDL to make some cool machines.
21:00:42 <ehird> <Sun> Get the SPARC processor source free! <me> OK. <Sun> ENTER EMAIL AND PASSWORD OR SIGN UP
21:01:53 <ehird> OpenSPARC T2 chip design 1.2 release
21:01:54 <ehird> OpenSPARCT2.1.2.tar.bz2 237.64 MB
21:01:59 <ehird> ais523: do you think that's 237MB of text?
21:02:10 <ehird> i'm excited to look at the VHDL/whatever code.
21:02:33 <ehird> ais523: well, it IS the complete source of a modern, enterprise-grade server microprocessor...
21:03:07 <ehird> ais523: i mean, i wouldn't expect it to be small...
21:03:32 <ehird> [[Sun announced the T2's release on 7 August 2007, billing it as "the world's fastest microprocessor"]]
21:03:36 <ehird> [[Verilog RTL source code of the design
21:03:36 <ehird> Verification environment
21:03:40 <ehird> Open source tools, scripts and Sun internal tools needed to simulate the design
21:03:42 <ehird> ISA specification (UltraSPARC Architecture 2007)
21:03:44 <ehird> Solaris 10 OS simulation images]]
21:03:46 <ehird> guess it's the last one that's big
21:05:32 <ehird> ais523: but i'm not actually sure how complex modern processors would be; I'd expect at least 10MB of source code
21:06:13 <ehird> 21:01 ehird: ais523: do you think that's 237MB of text? ← well more like 238
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21:12:10 <ehird> ais523: if windows 7 won't include IE in europe, I wonder how people are meant to download a browser?
21:12:21 <ehird> perhaps it prompts them whether to download IE or not when you access a URL
21:12:28 <ais523> ehird: the EU said that too
21:12:41 <ais523> they said that they asked for more choice in browsers, and Microsoft were providing less
21:12:47 <ais523> which is a great response
21:13:07 <ehird> ais523: omg; does this mean that another browser might be available in a stock windows? even if it's a open-it-and-it'll-download
21:13:11 <ehird> (prolly not, MS has $$$)
21:13:19 <ais523> that's what the EU wants, I don't know if they'll get it
21:13:20 <ehird> ais523: they'd probably use maxthon or one of the other IE-with-another-shell browsers.
21:13:33 <ehird> that way it's as shitty as IE
21:13:44 <ehird> [they could disable the extra features by default]
21:14:31 * Sgeo whargarbles at both MSN Messenger Live and AVG Security Tolbar
21:14:41 <ehird> lol@windows sucking.
21:16:48 <Sgeo> Ok, AVG toolbar forcibly put Yahoo! search in the thing that comes up when I open a new tab
21:17:39 <Sgeo> No, I don't want you redisplaying weekly, I disabled that a while ago! Learn to keep options across upgrades!
21:17:48 <ehird> Sgeo: It sure must suck to use windows
21:19:09 <Sgeo> It's worth it for the ability to use Active Worlds, and easily set up other games as meets my fancy
21:19:24 <ehird> WINE, VMs and dual-booting are all non-existant fantasies.
21:19:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i found an i7 975 XE for sale
21:20:04 <Sgeo> When I feel like just surfing the web quickly, I boot into Linux
21:21:11 <ehird> ais523: the actual cpu.v is just 736KB
21:21:23 <ehird> but there's tons more files & directories
21:21:34 <ehird> ais523: and that's still 15,638 lines
21:21:57 <ehird> a lot of it is "wire [blah] foo;" lines
21:22:07 <ehird> .zcp_dmc_ack0 (zcp_dmc_ack0), // <=
21:22:07 <ehird> .zcp_dmc_ack1 (zcp_dmc_ack1), // <=
21:22:09 <ehird> .zcp_dmc_dat0 (zcp_dmc_dat0[ 129 : 0 ]), // <=
21:22:11 <ehird> stuff like that too
21:22:13 <ehird> then it starts using => instead of <=
21:22:31 <ehird> ais523: would I be right in guessing this is probably autogenerated?
21:22:54 <ehird> it seems to be mostly a bunch of initializations or something
21:22:56 <ais523> although even Sun's human-written stuff looks autogenerated
21:22:56 <ehird> instead of actual logic
21:23:19 <ais523> mostly it will be connections
21:23:29 <ais523> rather than the things that are connected
21:23:37 <ehird> I wonder where the actual logic is
21:24:02 <ehird> ais523: holy damn, the expanded folder is 1.52GB
21:24:28 <ehird> assign received_instr[ 21 : 0 ] = efu_hdr_xfer_en_r1 ? efu_instr[ 21 : 0 ]
21:24:28 <ehird> : rdcount == 5'd23 ? sync_read
21:24:29 <ehird> : dispatch_read_data ? ({instr[ 20 : 0 ],1'b0}) : 22'b0;
21:24:31 <ehird> ais523: is that logic?
21:24:33 <ehird> it looks like logic.
21:24:51 <ehird> there are a bunch of empty lines and long lines here
21:24:53 <ehird> smells of preprocessing
21:25:26 <ehird> ais523: they don't have any actual explanatory comments :-)
21:25:41 <ais523> hey, I bet Sun stripped comments
21:25:47 <ais523> that would explain the empty lines
21:25:52 <ehird> ais523: that'd be fucking stupid, though
21:26:02 <ais523> unless they want people to pay for a full version
21:26:02 <ehird> and it doesn't account for the simply unintelligable, ultra-long lines
21:26:24 <ehird> huh, the i7's max temperature is rated at 67.9C
21:26:32 <ehird> that's a rather low resistance to temperature...
21:27:50 <ehird> ais523: they actually have verilog verification stuff!
21:28:14 <ehird> i wonder what big file's in there...
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21:28:21 <ais523> ehird: makes sense, it's hard to use without
21:28:26 <ais523> and probably a huge set of inputs and expected outputs
21:28:34 <ais523> for a processor, that'll be /massive/
21:28:38 <ehird> ais523: wait, why? wouldn't you just produce an actual chip?
21:28:41 <ehird> i mean, i get it for testing
21:28:44 <ehird> but why is it hard to use without
21:28:47 <psygnisfive> so i think i have a general layout for my language dev environment
21:28:48 <ais523> because chips are expensive
21:28:55 <ais523> and you need to test the hardware too
21:29:02 <ehird> ais523: synthesize on an FPGA?
21:29:07 <ehird> i guess it's far too big
21:29:13 <ehird> ais523: still, that's not use
21:29:16 <psygnisfive> or at the very least, the basic layout of the grammar system
21:29:40 <ehird> ais523: i think the big bit is the OS image that i think is in there
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21:30:17 <ehird> % du -h verif|grep 'G'
21:30:17 <ehird> 1.2Gverif/diag/assembly
21:30:27 <ehird> so something in the assembly folder
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21:31:04 <ehird> ais523: seems to be just an awful lot of assembly code.
21:31:18 <ais523> maybe it's the binaries to the OS, rather than source
21:31:30 <ais523> or an exhaustive testcase of all the asm they have
21:31:34 <ehird> ais523: they end with .s, but I stopped digging through the tree by then
21:31:37 <ais523> that would be a good way to test a processor
21:31:57 <ehird> ais523: why aren't processors made with provably-correct languages?
21:32:02 <ehird> that would be awesome.
21:33:06 <ehird> "open source users are pussies who are afraid of a little hard labor. waaah, I want the source code. waaah, I don't want to be in danger of DMCA threats"
21:34:43 <Slereah> Using open source softwares is hard enough, ehird
21:41:36 <ehird> http://ordiluc.net/fs/libetc/
21:51:28 <fizzie> There was a course that talked a bit of formal verification stuff (mostly model-checking), and there was a visiting lecturer from Intel; I seem to remember something about the formal proof-of-correctness ("with a mixture of STE and theorem proving" according to some slides) for the Pentium 4 FPU being the "largest" formal-verification thing up to that point.
21:52:16 <fizzie> To quote those slides: "we don't want another FDIV".
21:52:56 <fizzie> "Intel wrote of $475M to cover the FDIV bug, and suffered considerable damage to itse reputation. A similar error today could be much more expensive." That's not cheap.
21:53:38 <ehird> fizzie: They wrote of an amount of money? Why? I guess they care about itse reputation.
21:54:20 <fizzie> "On December 20, 1994 Intel offered to replace all flawed Pentium processors on the basis of request, in response to mounting public pressure.[8] This had a huge potential cost to the company, although it turned out that only a small fraction of Pentium owners bothered to get their chips replaced[citation needed]."
21:54:41 <fizzie> Don't know where the $475M figure comes from; it could be some sort of theoretical lost-money calculation.
21:54:58 <ehird> fizzie: Recalled processors? And I was jokin' 'bout the typos.
21:55:07 <ehird> [[At its worst, this error can occur as high as the fourth significant digit of a decimal number, but the possibilities of this happening are 1 in 360 billion. It is most common that the error appears in the 9th or 10th decimal digit, which yields a chance of this happening of 1 in 9 billion.]]
21:58:07 <fizzie> http://download.intel.com/technology/itj/q12001/pdf/art_3.pdf "The Pentium 4 processor was the first project of its kind at Intel to apply FV on a large scale." I guess they might've said just that. So they did formal verification on the FPU and instruction decoding units.
22:01:57 <fizzie> It also speaks of their chip simulation thing; "several thousand systems -- averaging 5-6 billion cycles per week" => about 9 kHz execution speed.
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22:09:01 <ehird> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/cvs-libraries/2009-June/010890.html
22:09:58 <ehird> Gracenotes: No more utf8-strings need!
22:10:45 <Gracenotes> I'm going out with mah family tonight :D going to a Chinese place with sushi
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23:02:32 <nooga> any ground breaking news?
23:03:06 <nooga> or stupid but amusing ideas?
23:03:20 <ehird> VHDL to WireWorld.
23:03:33 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHDL; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireworld
23:04:05 <ehird> reduced, tarpitty vhdl ofc
23:04:05 <nooga> i coded several optimal ww
23:05:22 <nooga> also i tried to generate gates in ww using genetic algorithms
23:06:09 <nooga> but it would be amusing
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