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00:39:58 <oklopol> well, see you in a few months :)
00:40:12 <oklopol> or, well, when internet starts flowing in my apartment again
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00:41:25 <AnMaster> what sort of issue is oklopol having?
00:43:58 <augur> i havent seen oklopol around in ages
00:44:00 <augur> and now hes gone :(
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00:59:18 <pikhq> I am seeing the funniest behavior from udev.
00:59:37 <pikhq> I was unaware that a joystick should be on /dev/input/js0 yet feeding into /dev/mice.
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03:21:24 <pikhq> That includes your video RAM.
03:21:50 <pikhq> So, if you've got a 1GB video card, that's easy.
03:23:18 <pikhq> Framebuffer, textures, 3D polygons, shader code, temporary buffers that haven't been blitted into the framebuffer, video that the video card is helping render...
03:26:48 <pikhq> Wow. Zicam can cause anosmia. 'Fun'.
03:36:43 * augur steaks pikhq sense of smell
03:38:17 <augur> inability to smell.
03:38:42 <augur> blend of greek, english, and italian
03:38:46 <augur> a- being "without"
03:38:50 <augur> and "mia" being "my"
03:40:11 <augur> who's the linguist here, you?
03:40:35 * pikhq wonders where psygnis is.
03:41:01 <pikhq> STOP CHANGING NICKNAMES.
03:41:09 <augur> i only changed it once, fucker
03:41:21 -!- augur has changed nick to who.
03:41:22 -!- who has changed nick to what.
03:41:36 -!- coppro has changed nick to when.
03:41:46 -!- what has changed nick to how.
03:41:51 -!- how has changed nick to augur.
03:42:11 -!- when has changed nick to coppro.
03:42:13 <augur> tho if i were really being gregor i'd be all like
03:42:59 <Warrigal> Not sure what's up with the -ia.
03:43:03 <augur> oh my god Warrigal go buy yourself a sense of humor
03:45:05 <Warrigal> Sorry, but I simply have no idea where I can do that.
03:51:52 <augur> i need some good coding music
03:52:11 <pikhq> Katamari Fortissimo Damacy.
03:52:42 <pikhq> The Katamari Damacy soundtrack.
03:52:51 <pikhq> It's called Katamari Fortissimo Damacy.
03:53:38 <augur> do you have anything on the interblogs? :P
03:56:26 <pikhq> Gregor Richard's Opuses (Opi?)
03:57:31 <pikhq> http://codu.org/music.php
04:33:24 <augur> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
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04:41:48 <oklopol> i think at some point i turned into a mathematician.
04:42:55 <oklopol> programming just seems trivial... hacking is still fun, and coding is okay, but i can't program.
04:43:53 <oklopol> by trivial i don't mean easy
04:43:58 <pikhq> You need to stop doing trivial things.
04:44:27 <oklopol> can you explain to me why it's trivial even though it's occasionally challenging?
04:44:51 <pikhq> Because you're doing something that's already been done, of course. ;)
04:45:26 <oklopol> i'm writing a textbox atm, making a pretty correspondence between logical and physical lines is surprisingly difficult.
04:45:40 <oklopol> and still it feels like i'm not actually solving a problem, just writing down trivialities
04:45:43 <augur> logical and physical lines?
04:46:11 <oklopol> wrapping is what physical lines do
04:46:42 <augur> so what are you griping about now?
04:47:35 <oklopol> just thought some of you might still think i'm a programmer.
04:48:01 <augur> oklopol you're an idiot.
04:48:07 <augur> but i still want you in me.
04:48:22 <pikhq> I recommend you do something non-trivial.
04:48:34 <pikhq> INVENT something, don't just do something well-known.
04:48:39 <augur> <oklopol> just thought some of you might still think i'm a programmer. << thats how
04:48:50 <augur> man, i wanna invent something :(
04:48:58 <oklopol> pikhq: i have invented something, this is just something i need to do before i can get to that
04:49:16 * pikhq hands oklopol The Art of Computer Programming
04:49:30 <oklopol> augur: why's that idiotic?
04:49:44 <oklopol> pikhq: i have that, haven't read it yet, what's your point?
04:49:44 <augur> IF YOU NEED TO ASK
04:50:05 <oklopol> augur: i don't need to, i want to
04:50:43 <oklopol> pikhq: i'm making this game where you try to guess the code that produces a given 2d fractal, which keeps evolving.
04:50:57 <oklopol> slowly, but faster than you can type the code to draw it
04:50:59 <pikhq> Read it, man. And enjoy your damned MIX.
04:52:09 <oklopol> i'm reading sicp now, finally decided to finish it
04:52:32 <oklopol> also read rwh, probably the most error-ridden book i've ever read
04:52:34 <augur> i havent actually read the book, but the videos <3
04:52:52 <oklopol> some of the programs are so wrong i simply couldn't continue reading for a while
04:53:04 <oklopol> and one of the example runs actually errors out
04:53:17 <oklopol> and they continue explaining the result even though there isn't one
04:53:39 <oklopol> but, it was also a very well written book, so kinda evens out.
04:53:58 <augur> WELL ATLEAST THERES THAT
04:54:52 <augur> I have only described it beautifully, not tried it.
04:55:20 <oklopol> <augur> i havent actually read the book, but the videos <3 <<< you told ehird you've read it twice
04:55:35 <oklopol> when he had his read sicp rant
04:55:36 <augur> i told ehird i WATCHED it twice.
04:56:01 <augur> youll need to fuck me if you want me to forgive you.
04:56:26 <oklopol> first two chapters of sicp have been a complete waste of time, i should've started at 3, but i just can't read a book partially :<
04:56:50 <augur> oklopol, whats your opinion of a programming language where you have to take certain core pieces of code, all of which are full programs, and compose them together to get other programs
04:56:55 <augur> rather than just write arbitrary code?
04:57:25 <oklopol> what kind of progs would those be
04:57:39 <oklopol> like building simple constructs from complex ones?
04:57:47 <augur> other way around :P
04:58:00 <oklopol> well the other way around is how programming usually works
04:58:09 <augur> given two syntactically and semantically acceptable programs A, B
04:58:37 <augur> where A = aXb, B = cXd
04:59:11 <augur> where X is some piece of code thats duplicated, and the small letters are other pieces of code that are not duplicated
04:59:57 <augur> sorry reverse that :P
05:00:35 <augur> and itll construct return xaby
05:00:52 <augur> and that would be the only way you could generate code
05:01:06 <oklopol> no idea what that means, that's just a well-known group automorphism
05:01:19 <augur> take some finite number of core grammatical pieces of code and compose them together in some restricted fashion
05:01:48 <oklopol> well i guess i might know where you're going with this
05:01:53 <oklopol> might want some kinda example tho
05:02:02 <augur> i dont know quite how itd look, to be honest
05:02:09 <augur> im just groping at ideas here, you know
05:02:36 <augur> im interested in what sorts of things you could get with that
05:03:21 <augur> where absolutely every valid program is either a primitive program, or is composed of other valid programs
05:03:31 <augur> in some fashion like that
05:04:37 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
05:05:01 <augur> didnt i link that already?
05:06:59 <augur> on the number of actual lowest level elements it needs to iterate over.
05:07:22 <oklopol> O(n^18) is a superset of O(n).
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05:07:49 <augur> except noone cares
05:08:03 <coppro> its O(n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*aa*ab*ac*ad*LPVAlgorithmIterationBounds)
05:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
05:10:05 <oklopol> well nothing really, i just read it, and realized it wasn't just 18 subparts of the same components.
05:10:27 <oklopol> assumed it was like for a in ...: for b in a: for c in b: ...
05:10:28 <Patashu> but it does something for every point in this 18 dimensional space
05:17:53 <oklopol> <augur> on the number of actual lowest level elements it needs to iterate over. <<< kinda like quicksort is O(n) on the number of comparisons it needs to do
05:18:24 <oklopol> it needs to do exactly as many as it needs to do
05:18:24 <pikhq> God, a bare minimum of 2^18 function calls.
05:18:39 <augur> oklopol: right, which is the number of lowest level elements. :P
05:18:39 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure most are singletons
05:19:00 <augur> pikhq: no it wouldnt
05:19:22 <oklopol> augur: i'm just saying O(n^18) is a better way to describe that than O(n), because there are 18 unknowns, and you iterate over their cartesian product
05:19:31 <pikhq> If it's all singleton lists, 1^18. :P
05:19:55 <augur> but the number of unknowns is irrelevant to the issue here, oklopol
05:20:09 <augur> the only thing that matters is the number of lowest level views that its accessing
05:20:28 <augur> the fact that the views are at the bottom of a deep view hierarchy is irrelevant to that fact.
05:20:56 <oklopol> which is determined by the product of the amounts of values for the 18 lists
05:21:36 <augur> but thats not the same as O(n^18)
05:22:00 <augur> let me put it this way
05:22:08 <augur> lets construct a smaller fictional model
05:22:12 <augur> where its just three loops deep
05:22:30 <augur> this should be O(n^3) by your reasoning
05:22:36 <augur> so what is n counting?
05:23:16 <augur> ok, so lets think about this for a second
05:23:50 <augur> what you're saying is
05:24:13 <augur> ok. i see where you're coming from.
05:24:38 <oklopol> n is the size of input, that's what it usually is.
05:24:59 <augur> but the inputs to the function at the bottom are the total number of items at the bottom
05:25:09 <oklopol> what do you mean at the bottom
05:25:13 <augur> of this view hierarchy
05:25:26 <augur> did you look at the code?
05:25:38 <oklopol> it's enumerating a cartesian product
05:26:24 <augur> well, yes, it is, ok. :P
05:26:36 <pikhq> Obviously, the code is O(n*o*p).
05:26:44 <pikhq> And in no fucking way is it linear.
05:26:46 <oklopol> <oklopol> well nothing really, i just read it, and realized it wasn't just 18 subparts of the same components. <<< me realizing just that
05:27:15 <oklopol> <Patashu> but it does something for every point in this 18 dimensional space <<< Patashu saying it in english.
05:27:33 <augur> enumerating a cartesian product is not "worst case" O(m^n) where m is the size of the largest space being crossed
05:27:59 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you mean
05:28:01 <augur> its worst case O(m^n) only in the case where all of the spaces are of size m
05:28:50 <oklopol> i don't see how that's relevant, given no extra information about the sizes.
05:29:01 <oklopol> you could just as well assume we're just sorting sorted lists
05:29:01 <augur> its PRECISELY (best, worst, and average) O(n) where n is the total number of tuples in the final product, where n = n0*n1*...*ni
05:29:10 <augur> no oklopol, you couldnt
05:29:26 <pikhq> I prefer saying O(abcdefghijklmnopqr).
05:30:02 <augur> because the description i gave of the scenario perfectly describes the actual amount of time the algorithm will take in relation to easily determinable and relevant factors
05:30:26 <augur> while your example of quicksort being O(n) over the number of compares is not easily determinable nor is it relevant
05:30:55 <augur> given the (KNOWN) sizes of all the sets involved, its trivial to calculate before the operation how long itll take
05:31:06 <augur> the same cannot be said about the quicksort algorithm
05:31:21 <augur> when O(n) over the number of compares.
05:31:23 <oklopol> all i'm saying is it's theta(n^18) on sum of sizes.
05:32:11 <augur> its only theta(n^18) because you're constructing an enormous maximum upper bound curve thats completely unnecessary
05:32:18 <augur> its theta(infinity) too by that very same logic
05:32:39 <augur> because theta(n^18) is a subset of theta(infinity)
05:32:42 <oklopol> i'm getting kinda tired of this
05:33:15 <oklopol> let me think a sec, i've actually kinda stopped thinking
05:33:21 <oklopol> i do that when i get annoyed with you
05:33:46 <augur> your problem is not that you stop thinking when you get annoyed with me
05:33:50 <augur> its that you never start thinking.
05:34:04 <oklopol> it's not not omega(infinity)
05:34:19 <augur> THE POINT IS OKLOPOL
05:34:34 <augur> saying its O(n^18) is meaningless.
05:34:39 <pikhq> COMPUTER SCIENCE IS NP-HARD.
05:34:57 <oklopol> it's not meaningless, and i'm saying theta, not ordo
05:35:07 <augur> there is precisely one case where it will ever actually be O(n^18), and that same case is captured in the more useful description i gave.
05:35:46 <oklopol> won't render right in here
05:35:48 <augur> the algorithm is EXACTLY, O(n) over the number of tuples in the final cross product.
05:36:10 <Patashu> you guys are such nerds, just saying
05:36:19 <oklopol> i should probably stop talking to augur on non-private medias, he's such an idiot
05:36:36 <augur> right, because that makes you correct, oklopol
05:36:43 <augur> oh wait, it doesnt.
05:36:49 <oklopol> here, that is, usually nice on skype.
05:37:02 <augur> thats because on skype you dont say stupid shit
05:37:41 <augur> to say that this algorithm is O(n^18) over the maximum size of the tuples is an overstatement to say the least.
05:37:44 <Patashu> that isn't the size of the input data
05:38:04 <Patashu> I don't think that's how O() works
05:38:26 <augur> but it IS the size of the input data.
05:38:33 <augur> you have some number of sets
05:38:48 <augur> you just product over their sizes and thats the amount of time its going to take.
05:38:48 <oklopol> Patashu: he's basically saying you shouldn't tell the algo's complexity on the size of input, because it's better described by the separate variables given. which is perfectly true.
05:39:03 <augur> no, oklopol, you're not going by the size of inputs either
05:39:07 <augur> you're doing the exact same thing i am
05:39:27 <oklopol> but say you had a thousand of those lists, i would definitely prefer O(n^1000)
05:39:36 <Patashu> but you're not sending it a complete list of tuples
05:39:38 <augur> except you're assume that to accurately describe the worst case scenario, you have to assume all the lists are the same size
05:39:40 <Patashu> you're sending it separate lists
05:39:42 <oklopol> to O(variable1*variable2*...*variable1000)
05:39:44 <augur> you do not need to assume that.
05:40:04 <augur> yes, it makes tuples. it makes a completely predictable number of tuples.
05:40:24 <augur> oklopol is just assuming that number is not predictable, and therefore hes assuming the number is larger than it really is
05:40:39 <augur> if i give you the lists [1] [2] [3,4,5,6,7,8]
05:40:47 <augur> you know precisely how long itll take to construct the cross product
05:40:57 <augur> you do not need to assume that all three lists are 6 elements long
05:41:04 <augur> and that that is the WORST CASE scenario for this algorithm
05:41:11 <augur> because you know precisely how long itll take
05:43:24 <oklopol> so has anyone proved freecell np-complete
05:43:38 <oklopol> i did spider solitaire a few days ago
05:44:38 <oklopol> (with decks of any size & any number of stacks)
05:45:35 <pikhq> oklopol: In the case of a thousand-dimensional space, I would prefer to say O(n0*n1*...*n999*n1000)
05:46:16 <augur> concession accepted.
05:47:28 <pikhq> GregorR: Just listening to Opus 10 for the first time. Nice work.
05:48:03 <pikhq> Gregor's 10th Opus.
05:48:24 <pikhq> http://codu.org/music.php
05:48:30 <pikhq> Has 5-10 and a few other pieces.
05:48:44 <pikhq> Not listened to the 9th, since I don't happen to have a MIDI setup working.
05:48:50 <oklopol> i've always wanted to hear GregorR's stuff
05:49:28 <oklopol> was hoping played on actual piano
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05:50:09 <pikhq> All but Opus 9 are him playing on the piano.
05:50:29 <GregorR> <oklopol> i've always wanted to hear GregorR's stuff // it's not like it's hidden :P
05:51:05 <oklopol> i was gonna say "well have you heard my unhidden stuff", then realized you probably haven't always wanted to hear my stuff :)
05:54:04 -!- immibis has joined.
05:54:52 <pikhq> Out of curiosity, anyone with a good MIDI setup willing to do something with Opus 9?
05:54:52 * immibis * myndzi myndzifmyndzif immibisf immibis myndzifimmibisf immibisfmyndzif
05:55:09 <oklopol> what does "do something with" mean?
05:55:22 <pikhq> Make an Ogg, really.
05:55:37 <pikhq> immibis: http://codu.org/music.php
05:55:53 <pikhq> Make an Ogg of it playing.
05:56:33 <pikhq> Dunno. I haven't heard it, since I cannot has MIDI.
05:57:27 <pikhq> Heck, playing it would be nice, too...
05:58:40 <oklopol> don't feel like reading it
05:59:32 <GregorR> pikhq: I have good MIDI now (not when I made that ogg), but its cello sucks a LOT >_<
06:00:44 <pikhq> Note, you don't have an Ogg of it posted. :P
06:03:22 * pikhq likes Color Matcher.
06:03:49 <augur> what the fuck barbecue
06:04:04 <GregorR> Everybody likes color matcher.
06:04:13 <augur> whats color matcher
06:04:48 <GregorR> http://codu.org/colormatch/
06:04:50 <pikhq> http://codu.org/colormatch/
06:05:33 <GregorR> "Oh yeah that shit who cares"
06:06:32 <pikhq> There's a lot of cool stuff on codu.org
06:07:38 <pikhq> GregorR: Shaddup, you're not as awesome as Gregor.
06:07:45 <oklopol> yes u rite, cuz you awesome!
06:08:47 <pikhq> Holy fuck, you've done more with JSMIPS.
06:19:51 <GregorR> Oh hooooooooooly fuuuuuuuuuuuuck
06:20:59 <immibis> wtf? a javascript mips emulator?
06:21:53 <GregorR> immibis: A /general-purpose/ JS MIPS emulator :P
06:34:41 <oklopol> <augur> concession accepted. <<< no i just ignored you
06:35:21 <augur> theres nothing to respond to
06:35:37 <oklopol> i thought you were implying i admitted i had been wrong
06:35:57 <augur> not in so many words
06:36:32 <augur> you admitted my description was preferable for very large cross products.
06:37:06 <augur> which effectively means that where the actual growth rate is concerned, you prefer my version
06:37:20 <augur> and since big-o notation is precisely for actual growth rate, you prefer my version period.
06:37:23 <oklopol> i admitted the product thing was preferable from the beginning, just said O(n) was retarded, and that O(n^18) is in no way a stretch, just how you'd express it with one variable.
06:37:25 <augur> thus, concession accepted.
06:37:49 <augur> but O(n^18) is NOT how you'd express it with one variable
06:38:03 <oklopol> sure is, if n is the size of input, it's O(n^18)
06:38:16 <augur> if you really want to express it strictly with one variable, O(sum[0,n](|X[n]|))
06:38:18 <oklopol> and you can't get a smaller ordo
06:38:34 <augur> sorry, that should be product not sum**
06:39:13 <oklopol> yours is how you'd express it given the sizes separately
06:39:49 <augur> yours is exactly the same as mine, only you're forcing all the sets to be the same size
06:39:55 <augur> to make some stupid "worst case" analysis
06:39:57 <oklopol> given a list of lists, with n elements taken together, it's O(n^18)
06:40:04 <oklopol> it's not forcing them to be the same size
06:40:06 <augur> which is completely unnecessary.
06:40:10 <augur> yes it is, oklopol
06:40:41 <augur> you're assuming you have 18 lists, each of size n
06:41:14 <oklopol> i'm assuming i have 18 lists, with n elements taken together
06:41:29 <augur> what does "n elements taken together" mean
06:41:33 <Patashu> you guys still talking about this
06:41:45 <augur> no, oklopol is still being stupid
06:41:45 <oklopol> like, if all are size 1, then n would be 18
06:41:53 <Patashu> you guys still talking about this < so this is correct
06:41:55 <oklopol> Patashu: i had to take a break to calm down
06:41:59 <oklopol> augur: what else could n be?
06:41:59 <augur> n is the total number of elements in the union over the sets?
06:42:10 <augur> lets think about this
06:42:16 <augur> suppose we have THREE lists instead of 18
06:42:26 <augur> each having 3 elements
06:42:50 <augur> well, lets say two elements, to avoid power-multiple confusion
06:43:09 <augur> so in your version it should take 2^3 = 8 steps
06:43:37 <oklopol> what's the better ordo then?
06:43:43 <augur> it should take 6^3 steps
06:43:45 <oklopol> you haven't given me one, just called me an idiot
06:43:53 <augur> i did give you one oklopol, you're just blind
06:43:57 <augur> but lets continue with this example
06:44:05 <augur> three lists, each with two elements.
06:44:18 <oklopol> i want the ordo, and i want a proof
06:44:40 <augur> so it should be 6^3 or 216 steps
06:45:13 <oklopol> what's your definition of ordo?
06:45:15 <augur> im using your fucking equation oklopol
06:45:29 <oklopol> and what's the ordo you said is better than mine
06:45:31 <augur> O(n^exp) where n is the size of the union of the sets, and exp is the number of sets
06:46:02 <augur> we'll get there in a second, oklopol
06:46:05 <augur> answer the question first
06:46:14 <oklopol> i'm only interested in examples once i know what you're even trying to say
06:46:43 <augur> O(n) over the number of items in the cross product, where n = product[0,|X|](X[i])
06:47:07 <oklopol> that's not an ordo on the size of input
06:47:19 <augur> no, its not, but im not doing order over the size of the input
06:47:47 <oklopol> yeah, augur, what's an ordo?
06:48:03 <oklopol> i don't actually know you know, just assume
06:48:29 <augur> the order of an algorithm is the growth rate of an algorithm relative to some quantity
06:48:42 <augur> "ordo" is oklopols typo.
06:48:52 <oklopol> oh it's not ordo in english
06:48:59 <oklopol> i've been typoing for years then :)
06:49:14 <augur> which means effectively its english
06:49:28 <oklopol> i thought both ordo and order are okay
06:49:35 <augur> they might be used in CS, i dont know
06:49:42 <augur> getting back to the topic
06:49:49 <oklopol> usually they use O, so i don't know,.
06:50:45 <augur> O(n^m) is not worst case. its not even least upper bound.
06:50:50 <augur> its just completely wrong.
06:50:59 <augur> no, oklopol, its not
06:51:03 <oklopol> can you give me a better one?
06:51:27 <augur> because the algorithm is dependent on the n i gave
06:51:34 <augur> and has nothing to do with the n's and m's you gave
06:51:50 <oklopol> it's the worst case, (n/3) * (n/3) * (n/3) = n^3 / 27, so clearly it's omega(n^3)
06:52:08 <oklopol> that's for an even distribution of the elements
06:52:52 <augur> except the function does not take n^3 time
06:52:53 <oklopol> i just proved it's theta(n^|elems|)
06:53:39 <augur> the only time it ever takes that amount of time is in precisely that one situation.
06:54:24 <oklopol> that statement means nothing to me
06:54:46 <oklopol> precisely what situation, it's a fucking tight bound
06:54:54 <augur> [1], [1], [1], [1], [1]
06:55:23 <augur> your description says this should take 5^5 steps.
06:55:33 <augur> its n^5 time in your algorithm
06:56:05 <augur> but we know its not. its O(n) time over the number of elements in the union, precisely so.
06:56:14 <oklopol> for n/5 elements it takes (n^5 / 5^5) time in the worst case
06:56:19 <augur> (elements in the append**)
06:56:43 <augur> and yet its n not n^5, in the worst case.
06:57:21 <oklopol> worst case of having one element in each list?
06:57:23 <augur> for set sizes of one, its O(n)
06:57:36 <oklopol> yeah true, kinda like quicksort is O(1) for empty lists
06:58:29 <oklopol> really i don't understand what you're arguing, you don't seem to be saying my math is wrong
06:58:42 <augur> no, what im saying is youre measuring on the wrong fucking variables.
06:59:09 <augur> because there are precise fits where best-time = worst-time = average-time with the right variables.
06:59:24 <oklopol> and there are tight bounds using just n
06:59:49 <oklopol> for constant amount of variables
06:59:58 <augur> not at all, yours is merely constant multiple bounded for even distribution
07:00:28 <oklopol> yes, simple cases aren't worst cases
07:00:47 <augur> you're right, so we should ignore simple cases and look at all cases.
07:01:25 <augur> youre using two variables, and your description gives completely inaccurate predictions of performance for those numbers.
07:01:27 <oklopol> we're talking complexity, it's always about the hardest cases
07:01:40 <augur> yes, and yours is NOT the hardest case.
07:01:53 <oklopol> there are harder cases than even distribution?
07:01:54 <augur> the hardest case, in a cross product, is the largest possible cross product
07:02:05 <augur> in yours? yes. yours predicts it.
07:02:08 <Patashu> which is when you have equal distribution isn't it?
07:03:15 <augur> when its equal over the maximum, yes, sure. and in that precise case his equation is exactly the same as mine, ignoring notational differences.
07:03:40 <augur> but his is not worst case for arbitrary n and m
07:03:56 <augur> its WRONG is what it is
07:04:16 <augur> it has nothing to do with the nested loops
07:04:23 <augur> neither does yours
07:04:48 <augur> the HAPPENSTANCE fact that it can get a SINGLE case correct is irrelevant
07:05:11 <augur> for arbitrary n and m, yours is not the worst-case order for the nested loops.
07:05:44 <oklopol> if you have n elements arbitrarily divided in m lists, the cartesian product is O(n^m)
07:06:52 <augur> unless by that you mean "O(n^m) is strictly above the order of the cartesian product, but is not fitted at all"
07:07:12 <augur> in which case that amounts to saying the cartesian product is O(infinity)
07:07:22 <oklopol> i'm saying it's theta(n^m)
07:07:38 <oklopol> i should probably consistently say so, true.
07:08:29 <oklopol> if you want a tighter bound than a constant multiple, then yeah, just number of elements in the union isn't enough
07:08:39 <oklopol> but then why would we be talking about order
07:09:10 <augur> because we're talking about how long it takes to compute the product
07:09:17 <augur> which is precisely determined by the size of the product
07:10:05 <augur> also, hold on while i actually try to plot these graphs just to see if you're correct about it being THETA(n^m)
07:10:58 <oklopol> hardest case is always even distribution, sizes (n/m), ..., (n/m), that is, n^m / m^m, which for a constant m is theta(n^m)
07:11:10 <oklopol> i don't see what plotting will prove, but have fun
07:13:32 <augur> lets consider a simple case where m = 2
07:13:43 <augur> just to simplify the proof that you're wrong.
07:14:24 <augur> well we can do it otherwise actually, i thin
07:14:58 <oklopol> do you want the proof for the special case of m=2?
07:15:07 <oklopol> i'm sure it's hard to put the numbers in there yourself
07:15:51 <augur> if you're not going to read what i say, its hard to make snarky comments without making yourself look like a fool.
07:15:54 <augur> keep that in mind.
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07:16:33 <oklopol> i just don't see what you're trying to accomplish by finding a counter-example to a proof, but not showing what's wrong with it
07:16:47 <augur> im not trying to find a counter example
07:16:59 <augur> see this is why you should read what you should read before you speak
07:17:11 <augur> i said we could do it generally, not with particular counter examples.
07:18:14 <augur> im thinking of how to construct the proof in a way that you will accept.
07:19:01 <augur> oh i will. i will take my time.
07:19:11 <augur> and when im done, you'll be just as wrong.
07:21:11 <augur> yes, limiting this to two lists for a simple proof.
07:21:28 <augur> if your lists are size a and b, respectively
07:21:40 <augur> actual time is a*b, precisely.
07:21:57 <augur> your time is theta (a+b)^2
07:22:45 <augur> but there is no c such that c(a+b)^2 < a*b for all a, b
07:23:34 <augur> a*b is a simple hyperbolic saddle
07:23:43 <oklopol> a<n=a+b, b<n=a+b, therefore a^2+2ab+b^2 < n^2 + 2n^2 + n^2 = 4n^2
07:24:45 <oklopol> why should it be less than a*b?
07:24:53 <augur> because thats what theta means?
07:25:03 <augur> Theta(n) means that its bounded above AND below
07:25:16 <oklopol> i said theta(n^2), which is theta((a+b)^2)
07:25:49 <augur> and a*b is not bounded below by (a+b)^2
07:27:05 <augur> except for c = 0, ofcourse.
07:28:12 <augur> now, in real terms, since we're ranging over N not R, it might be. im not sure in that space.
07:28:27 <oklopol> <augur> but there is no c such that c(a+b)^2 < a*b for all a, b <<< right, of course there isn't, but all we need is for there to be such a worst case for every n that it it is
07:28:52 <augur> oklopol, that is not what theta (a+b)^2 means.
07:30:54 <augur> i would also point out that the nested loops version has varying time depending on the sorting of the items. assuming presorting from lowest to highest list size, the algorithm gets a (minor) improvement
07:31:04 <oklopol> no, but it is what theta(n^2) means, the *worst cases* of the algorithm, for input size n, n^2 sandwiches them
07:31:35 <augur> because n^2 == (a+b)^2
07:31:51 <oklopol> worst cases for given a and b where a+b=n are different than those for given n
07:32:10 <augur> a+b = n in all cases, oklopol.
07:34:05 <augur> now, i think i can see what you're trying to do.
07:35:00 <augur> and if im right, you're simply abusing the terms worst case.
07:35:03 <oklopol> basically you're not taking worst cases for a given n, if you separate it into a and b such that a+b=n
07:35:15 <oklopol> you're taking the worst case of a given a and b
07:35:18 <augur> see, this is where you're abusing the terms worst case.
07:35:38 <augur> in your equation, you have these two variables. this is inescapable.
07:35:56 <augur> you cannot simply collapse them into one and then ignore the fact that they're two independent variables
07:37:13 <augur> so your "worst case" is the worst case curve for the algorithm ignoring the actual equation you used and instead treating it as tho you're not doing a cartesian product
07:38:04 <augur> and yes, i agree, in that particular case, you're right that cn^2 is strictly lower than (a*b)^2
07:38:26 <augur> but there is also a c where they are equal, i believe.
07:40:04 <augur> on that i could be wrong, really
07:40:05 <oklopol> i was going by a definition of omega that for a given n, there is such an input, |input|=n, that T(input)>f(n).
07:40:24 <oklopol> if that is wrong, then in fact i was wrong, and it seems it is wrong.
07:40:52 <augur> i dont even know what that definition is saying
07:41:00 <augur> Omega means strictly bound below
07:41:19 <oklopol> T(input) means amount of steps, and i should've said T(input)>cf(n) for some c>0
07:41:30 <augur> and since your equation, and the function, is two dimension, its false that it is strictly bound below by (a+b)^2
07:41:32 <oklopol> |input| is the size of input
07:44:12 <oklopol> <augur> Omega means strictly bound below <<< yeah but does it mean worst case is bound from below, or that simplest case is bound from below?
07:44:26 <augur> it means the whole thing is bounded.
07:44:51 <oklopol> and what does that mean exactly? that for all inputs, it's bounded from below?
07:44:59 <augur> the whole function.
07:45:13 <oklopol> then i have a different definition.
07:45:25 <tetha> then your definition is wrong
07:45:46 <oklopol> so... bubblesort doesn't have a theta bound?
07:45:59 <oklopol> because it's O(n) for sorted input
07:46:07 <augur> O(n) is just upper bound.
07:46:45 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure that's a stupid definition
07:47:20 <augur> there is no worst case for a cartesian product
07:47:21 <oklopol> probably it's not a stupid definition
07:47:36 <augur> theyre all the same.
07:48:12 <augur> the way you're going by worst case there is
07:48:23 <augur> given some input of size whatver to be sorted
07:48:37 <augur> what is the WORST possible arrangement that is possible?
07:49:07 <immibis> for bubble sort i think it's sorted in reverse order
07:49:12 <augur> sure, but theres no way to define that on a cartesian product
07:49:16 <oklopol> anyway i'm acknowledging i'm wrong about omega, and therefore about theta too
07:49:40 <augur> because there is NO partition of n elements that will take longer than any other partition of n elements
07:50:06 <augur> no, there might be, sorry :D
07:50:11 <oklopol> the worst case is even distribution
07:50:41 <oklopol> anyway if i have a fundamental definition wrong (which i still have a hard time believing), i'm not judging you for that error.
07:51:31 <augur> then in the worst case, it is theta n^2, yes.
07:52:17 <augur> and in that case it is also precisely n^2
07:52:38 <augur> which i said earlier.
07:53:41 <augur> regardless, it is O(n) time over the number of elements in the cross product
07:55:12 <augur> not just in worst case, precisely.
07:55:48 <oklopol> LOL i just realized where the problem probably lies: omega doesn't define whether it's worst case or simplest case, it's just about functions :P
07:55:57 <oklopol> in which case we'd both be right
07:57:19 <oklopol> i can't really think on irc, if someone's attacking me.
07:58:11 <augur> then you should get out of academia
07:58:27 <augur> maybe, but as we all know, the university is dooms, and irc will supplant it!
07:58:31 <oklopol> i don't know what's so different about irc
07:58:41 <augur> its text. you have more time to think.
07:58:44 <augur> thinking fucks people up!
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08:00:04 <oklopol> maybe! or maybe it's the fact i need to start answering right away, or they might just assume i'm not going to answer.
08:00:10 <oklopol> which doesn't happen irl, because they see me
08:01:21 <oklopol> usually it turns out i'm right, but i have to leave irc for a few minutes to see why.
08:01:39 <oklopol> "i'm right, but no time to explain why"
08:02:55 <oklopol> ^ what my brain says to me during a heated antidiscussion.
08:03:17 <augur> lets just have makeup sex
08:03:29 <augur> all this talk is making me weary.
08:03:48 <oklopol> i'm calm again, so i guess i'd prefer reading
08:04:42 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure you're too far from me for that :)
08:04:53 <oklopol> since no one knows where i am, not even me
08:05:04 <augur> but then you surely might be closer!
08:06:12 <coppro> the World Champion's from Finland!
08:06:54 <oklopol> finland, yes, but i'm not where i live.
08:07:59 <augur> are you a wanted criminal?
08:08:05 <oklopol> well i'm not really hidden, i'm just not home.
08:08:13 <fizzie> Hidden oklopol, crouching augur.
08:08:20 <oklopol> and no, but i thought about telling everyone here i killed a man and went to jail.
08:08:25 <augur> yes, crouching in front of hidden oklopol
08:08:32 <augur> ill leave the rest to your imaginations.
08:09:03 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardriving
08:09:06 <augur> Wardriving is the act of searching for Wi-Fi wireless networks by a person in a moving vehicle, using a portable computer or PDA.
08:09:27 <oklopol> oh, that's actually useful
08:09:43 <oklopol> THANK YOU FOR EXPANDING MY HEAD
08:09:46 <augur> someone should do a google-maps addon with wifi signal strength
08:10:17 <coppro> they should add that into streetview
08:10:21 <coppro> just to irritate the privacy guys more
08:10:59 <augur> lol nah, an overlay would be better
08:11:15 <coppro> not the actual software
08:11:29 <coppro> the cars for streetview
08:11:33 <coppro> should get wifi strength
08:11:44 <coppro> while they take pictures that irritate governments
08:12:00 <augur> use full sentences please
08:12:10 <augur> your ideas are fragmented and hard to grasp
08:12:58 <coppro> Yes, because I was hoping that you'd have figured it out by the end of each fragment
08:13:08 <coppro> Streetview has cars that drive around taking pictures
08:13:17 <coppro> Those cars should also take wifi strnegth
08:13:21 <augur> no, google has cars that drive around
08:13:28 <augur> streetview has pictures taken by those cars.
08:13:54 <oklopol> do those cars have humans inside
08:13:58 <augur> and the maps would display this data like any other google maps overlays
08:13:59 <immibis> "$ man 3 sleep" -> "No manual entry for sleep in section 3. See 'man 7 undocumented' for help when manual pages are not available" -> "$ man 7 undocumented" -> "No manual entry for undocumented in section 7"
08:14:05 <augur> oklopol: no, we've imported robot cars from japan
08:14:34 <immibis> are robot cars even legal (although you are probably in a different country to me)
08:14:47 <immibis> indeed you're both in different countries from eahc other
08:14:54 <oklopol> not here, probably not anywhere
08:15:06 <oklopol> well probably somewhere, but anyway.
08:15:38 <tetha> from what I know, a car is allowed to drive automatically as long as someone is on the drivers seat
08:16:00 <oklopol> that sounds more plausible
08:17:37 <augur> the google streetview cars are piloted.
08:28:18 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
08:28:23 <lament> okokokokokokokokoko\o/okoko
08:28:38 <oklopol> i hope that was just delay on my screen
08:29:29 <oklopol> mainly because it failed the first one
08:30:04 <oklopol> i can't paste multiple lines
08:30:23 <oklopol> body was detached from the head
08:30:51 <fizzie> It "fails" if you use an IRC thing that aligns stuff so that the beginnings of messages match up, instead of the beginnings of nicknames.
08:31:09 <oklopol> oh i think i heard GregorR say that, had no idea about context, was just skimming
08:31:28 <fizzie> Though I guess that doesn't explain failing that lament thing, since their nicknames are equally long.
08:31:47 <oklopol> also this thing matches beginnings
08:33:00 <lament> are y\o/u using a pr\o/p\o/rti\o/nal f\o/nt?
08:33:30 <oklopol> are you questioning my sexuality
08:33:39 * lament sings Infected Mushroom
08:34:05 <lament> i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane
08:34:54 <lament> voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo
08:35:29 <oklopol> i think it's voy is become
08:35:37 <oklopol> i think ver or something is become
08:35:53 <lament> i think it's probably toy
08:36:23 <oklopol> i don't know what toy means, but i'm assuming that should mean the same thing as the english one
08:36:33 <lament> infected mushroom is coming to my city - ten days after i leave :(
08:38:46 <augur> infected mushroom is psychedelic music i think
08:39:22 <Gracenotes> some goa influence too. They do have some traditional-y techno trance though
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08:39:40 <augur> my god is Erez Eisen tasty
08:40:06 <oklopol> would just like to point out once again that genres are stupid, mainly because i don't know them.
08:40:07 <lament> i can't hear any goa influence there
08:40:24 <lament> goa is boring shitty music that uses indian scales.
08:40:34 <lament> infected mushroom is awesome cool shit that uses israeli scales.
08:41:04 <augur> is gracenotes a person or a bot?
08:41:05 <Gracenotes> they're quite superficially similar, related to major phrygian mode
08:41:14 <oklopol> musical shit would've been a better term
08:41:28 <lament> Gracenotes: yes but it's not an influence
08:41:44 <Gracenotes> lament: I dunno. I think I hear it in the instrumentation.
08:41:48 <augur> i should listen to infected mushroom more
08:41:49 <lament> Gracenotes: infected mushroom is pretty clearly influenced by israeli music
08:42:05 <lament> which is where that scale is coming from
08:42:13 <augur> that would make sense
08:42:26 <augur> since Erez Eisen and whoever the other guy is are israeli :p
08:42:35 <lament> Gracenotes: mushroom is way more varied though
08:43:12 <augur> i enjoy goa. but only certain pieces.
08:43:15 <augur> much like everything else.
08:44:09 <lament> the impression i got from goa
08:44:11 <Gracenotes> but I really like Juno Reactor's adoption of some goa themes
08:44:33 <lament> was that they were just trying to do the same thing traditional indian music already does, but much more poorly
08:45:05 <lament> (goa much more poorly than traditional)
08:45:17 * Gracenotes wonders what traditional indian music "does"
08:45:46 <Gracenotes> speaking of which, you like Juno Reactor somewhat?
08:46:27 <oklopol> this seems like a good time to answer, augur: freecell is a game that comes with windows, deck is randomized in a few stacks all cards showing, and you need to dig up all suits in their separate stacks in ascending order with a few rules constraining moves.
08:46:32 <Gracenotes> yeah, lots of bands out there :) I first heard them when they collaborated with The Matrix soundtrack producers
08:46:46 <Gracenotes> they were the ones who wrote the great car chase music in the 2nd movie
08:46:59 <oklopol> it's like a card game, a solitaire
08:48:23 <oklopol> freecell is good for when i want to feel smart without thinking.
08:48:34 <oklopol> well not feel smart, more like waste time
08:48:55 <lament> when i want to feel smart, i go to a programming channel that isn't #haskell
08:49:38 <lament> oklopol: i was just reading it today
08:50:21 <oklopol> i want someone to tell me i didn't dream all the tons of errors that wouldn't show up in simple test runs, but are so blazingly obvious they make the reader cry
08:50:40 <oklopol> well not tons, but at least 3!
08:51:02 <lament> i saw one but it was just a wrong variable name
08:51:17 <oklopol> first 200 pages are mostly error-free
08:51:52 <lament> i just bought it for the cover!
08:52:17 <oklopol> tbh the only error i remember now - should've written them down or shut up probably - is that they use a height for a width
08:53:04 <augur> omg this is so tasty D:
08:53:04 <oklopol> they make this algorithm for reading barcodes
08:54:00 <oklopol> they use a certain simple scheme the find out what the digits are, when they're not sure, based on the checksum digit
08:54:04 <augur> i made a tarte flambee for dinner
08:54:16 <oklopol> but i'm at least 30% sure it can only correct the first digit.
08:54:20 <augur> with a slightly modified recipe (two or three tbsp butter)
08:54:27 <augur> which made it sooooo much tastier
08:54:39 <oklopol> test run only tested a case with exactly the first digit wrong, which at least somewhat supported my theory.
08:57:36 <oklopol> i wish i had the book so i could find the errors that are worth sharing
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09:33:03 <immibis> lol theres actually a channel #spam
09:33:35 <oerjan> SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM
09:33:50 <oklopol> dpaofigjipodjgiojdfsiogjdiofjg
09:34:02 <oerjan> oklopol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:35:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, you said something about internet issues yesterday? What was that about?
09:38:13 <oklopol> well my regular internet stream got dammed by the Company, because i didn't pay the bills (i accidentally them behind a radiator!)
09:38:41 <oklopol> and some internet flowed around my apartment for a while
09:39:03 <oklopol> but then came summer drought.
09:45:43 <oklopol> have you ever painted a fish
09:46:15 <oerjan> not that i can recall. i think they're quite awkward to paint on
09:47:43 <oklopol> i realized today that i'm not sure whether i've ever tried drugs.
09:48:13 <oklopol> i mean not because of blackouts, i just don't remember. my life is just so damn long.
09:48:23 <oerjan> live drugs sound disturbing
09:48:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, as opposed to pre-recorded drugs?
09:49:02 <oerjan> now, as opposed to unliving ones
09:49:46 <oerjan> you are thinking of undead. admittedly that also sounds disturbing, although perhaps less so
09:51:32 <AnMaster> odd that wikipedia doesn't have a page about bogosearch, since it implements it
09:52:05 <oklopol> random shuffles the whole wp?
09:52:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, that would be bogo_sort_
09:52:55 <fizzie> "Live drugs" sounds like some sort of all-natural all-organic fresh-from-the-field drug thing.
09:52:56 <oklopol> yeah, i just don't really see what people write, they just loosely guide me to semi-sensible answers.
09:53:48 <oerjan> bogosearch may not have a bad enough O()
09:54:04 <oerjan> it's probably O(n) on average
09:54:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, couldn't some drugs be extracted from animals? In theory. If you can extract poison for darts from some sort of toad, why couldn't you find some other toad where you could extract a drug instead?
09:54:38 <oklopol> bogosearch = random elements until you find what you're looking for?
09:54:58 <AnMaster> if so, a live drug would be not bother extracting it, but just eating it raw and alive
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09:55:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I always wondered how one figure out the O() for an algorithm. Especially when it isn't O(n) or O(1) (those are quite simple to figure out) but something like O(log log n)
09:56:24 <AnMaster> also, sure about Special:Random until you found what you wanted would be O(n)?
09:56:37 <Patashu> assuming only one page satisfies your criteria
09:56:59 <oerjan> of course if it's not there you have a problem
09:57:06 <oerjan> worst case is infinite of course
09:57:25 <Patashu> big O notation doesn't work very well for probabilistic algorithms X3
09:57:51 <oklopol> you take the worst case average probability over all inputs
09:57:58 <Patashu> a random walk has O(infinity)
09:58:16 <oklopol> yeah you can't use the same definition ofc
09:58:29 <oklopol> but what you usually use is what i said there, plus correction
09:58:55 <oerjan> each lookup has 1/n chance of finding the item
09:59:23 <AnMaster> (assuming uniform randomness of course)
09:59:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: for an algorithm, it's just simple math
10:00:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, can you construct a bogosearch with _worse_ average time...
10:00:13 <oerjan> the probability of using m lookups is (1-1/n)^m * 1/n
10:00:55 <oerjan> sum m/n * (1-1/n)^m to get the expected value
10:01:35 <Patashu> bogosearch, but it returns a certain page n times in a row on average before returning a new random page
10:01:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, is the "sum" there same as $$\sum$$ ?
10:02:14 <fizzie> I guess you mean "$\sum$"; or does something use a double-dollar thing with TeX-like maths?
10:02:24 <oerjan> to make it worse you would essentially have to throw away found information?
10:02:45 <oerjan> i think $$ may be equivalent to \[ ?
10:02:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, err, probably mixed it up
10:03:08 <fizzie> I don't think it is, but you could be right.
10:03:18 <oklopol> you think what you want to think
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10:03:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have seen maxima's "to tex" thingy generate double $$, when pasted into lyx it turns into \[ iirc
10:03:52 <oklopol> well look at that, there he goes again
10:04:02 <fizzie> Oh yes, $$ is the "inherited from plain TeX" thing.
10:05:19 <fizzie> "Using the plain TeX notation $$ ... $$ for displayed equations is not recommended. Although it is not expressly forbidden in LaTeX, it is not documented anywhere in the LaTeX book as being part of the LaTeX command set, and it interferes with the proper operation of various features such as the fleqn option."
10:06:21 <AnMaster> (the time delay there was looking up wth "fleqn" was)
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10:13:17 <immibis> try "echo > >(less)" over ssh
10:14:02 <immibis> i notice if i "yes > >(less)" and ctrl-c it terminates my ssh session
10:14:58 * AnMaster tries to figure out what on earth it does
10:15:17 <fizzie> ">(less)" is the process substitution thing.
10:15:18 <AnMaster> <(less) I know, but what is >()? Same but for input?
10:16:11 <AnMaster> so that turns into echo > /dev/fd/something & less /dev/fd/something in other words...
10:16:30 <fizzie> At least the ">(less)" part turns into a "/dev/fdX" type of string which is the write end of a pipe, the read end of which is used as input to less.
10:16:54 <fizzie> I don't think it actually runs "less /dev/fd/somethingelse", just "less" with stdin coming from that pipe.
10:16:56 <AnMaster> oh and this is probably complicated by the fact that echo is a builtin
10:17:16 <immibis> it turns into "echo > file-descriptor-pointing-to-stdin-of-less"
10:17:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, doing comm <(foo) <(bar) turns it into "comm /dev/fd/something /dev/fd/somethingelse"
10:17:41 <fizzie> It's file-descriptor-pointing-to-a-write-end-of-a-fifo-which-has-the-read-end-as-the-stdin-of-less.
10:17:44 <AnMaster> but maybe not for the command inside
10:18:05 <immibis> fifo as in what you get with the mkfifo command? or something else?
10:18:21 <fizzie> Well, what you get from pipe(2).
10:18:35 <AnMaster> which is different from mkfifo
10:18:50 <fizzie> Yes, it doesn't have a name.
10:18:51 <AnMaster> mkfifo creates a fifo file on disk
10:19:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure it does. "a pipe"
10:19:10 <AnMaster> oh you mean the actual instance? right
10:19:13 <fizzie> I mean a filesystem-name.
10:19:28 <Patashu> bubblesort considered harmful
10:21:04 <AnMaster> from this follows that the reason for *nix like OS being used for many servers is that they have good pipe supports, which is handy when working with the tubes of the internet.
10:22:12 <AnMaster> immibis, I think you aren't using a fixed font for irc?
10:22:30 <AnMaster> there are more supports than pipe there
10:23:14 <fizzie> Maybe the pipe part is still under construction.
10:23:42 <fizzie> I actually ran into an animated "under construction" .gif rather recently. It was very nostalgic.
10:24:11 <immibis> ===============O===========\
10:24:21 <immibis> that should look fine in fixed width
10:24:29 <fizzie> For some values of fine, yes.
10:24:34 <immibis> theres also a person pretending to be a pipe support
10:24:42 <fizzie> The pipe goes through his head. That looks uncomfortable.
10:25:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't he standing just in front of the pipe rather?
10:25:18 <fizzie> http://www.vennamo.com/pict/CONBTN2P.GIF
10:25:31 <fizzie> I think it's in-one-ear, out-of-the-other.
10:25:55 * AnMaster wonders why selecting to open that link in the browser instead opened it in gimp
10:26:29 <fizzie> Strange; it has the sensible image/gif mimetype and all.
10:26:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, if mime-type is wrong it tends to try to open them in khexedit instead..
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13:45:44 <Deewiant> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspx
14:01:10 <fizzie> What the what? "Developer tools: Of course Internet Explorer 8 wins this one."
14:01:53 <fizzie> I like the checkmark approach. You should use IE because none of the alternatives have either security or privacy at all.
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14:51:53 <oklopol> think i've tried / will ever try chrome?
14:53:30 <fizzie> Tab isolation means running each tab in a separate process or some-such, so that if one tab crashes, the whole browser won't come crashing down.
14:53:43 <fizzie> Personally I think they could just make the browser, you know, not crash.
14:54:04 <oklopol> right, guessed it'd some kinda non-feature
14:54:24 <oklopol> well, i guessed it was that non-feature
14:54:35 <fizzie> Apparently tab isolation means increased memory usage, too, since there's some stuff that could be shared but is not. At least according to some people. And you know you can trust [some people].
14:55:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, err... what sort of stuff
14:57:03 <fizzie> Look, it was just a quote from the interwebs. I don't care about the topic so much than I'd bothered to have read more.
14:57:37 <AnMaster> you know that most (if not all) modern OS share the read-only parts of executable files (shared libraries and executables) between different instances? So you end up with just one copy of libc in memory for example
14:57:51 <AnMaster> there are some exceptions to this
14:58:26 <AnMaster> for example, if you didn't compile the code as position independent and it ended up needing to be reallocated, it would be copied.
14:59:06 <AnMaster> but iirc windows doesn't use PIC in DLLs, so I guess it could be affected quite badly by that if any dll ends up being reallocated.
14:59:16 <fizzie> Yes, well, I gather there's quite a lot of not-read-only state in gecko or whatever the rendererer is called; I have no clue whether some of that can be optimilized in the "multiple tabs, single process" case more than the "multiple processes with separate memory spaces" one, but it doesn't sound completely unbelievable.
14:59:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could use mmap() to share it
14:59:50 <AnMaster> well, a bit more than just mmap()
15:00:02 <AnMaster> but basically mmap() + a few other system calls
15:00:09 <fizzie> You could do shared-memory trickery, but I'm also not sure they do.
15:01:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, consider settings like "home page, size of disk cache" and what not. Of course they can't be in .rodata. What you do is simply to have one process with it mapped read-write (the controller process), and the tab processes have it mapped read-only
15:01:57 <AnMaster> if the user wasn't to change it after intitial load of browser it wouldn't even require that
15:02:04 <AnMaster> it would just work, since fork() does COW
15:02:13 <fizzie> Yes, again, it's another point of complexity.
15:02:17 <AnMaster> of course, most of this doesn't apply to windows. which iirc doesn't do COW...
15:03:11 <AnMaster> but I argue you can solve it with close to zero increased memory usage. Of course memory will increase slightly. If by nothing else, at least due to kernel having to manage more processes, requiring more task structures and so on.
15:03:16 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't really have an onion on tab isolation; I just am a bit unsure why it's being hyped like it's the best thing since sliced bread that crashing tabs don't crash the browser, I'd rather the tabs not crash.
15:03:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, browsers will always has bugs. Just realise it. As soon as you add javascript that is.
15:04:21 <AnMaster> that is, all features of javascript
15:04:35 <oklopol> i hear this IE8 never crashes
15:05:35 <AnMaster> sure you can make a small browser if it is just to render basic html and possibly handle simple javascripts. But that would result in something like "w3m extended"
15:05:36 <fizzie> Yes, I guess bugs exist, but I still think it's a bit disturbing if it's so common-place that you'll have to jump through hoops to minimize damage. Not that I'm against modularity.
15:06:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, if so, why do OSes use rings and protected memory
15:07:04 <fizzie> It's a bit different thing to be executing someone else's native code.
15:07:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't that was plugins is all about?
15:07:37 <fizzie> I would hope plugins are well isolated, yes.
15:07:39 <oklopol> this has been a treat, see you in a few months!
15:07:43 <AnMaster> except, and this is hilarious, plugins aren't restricted by the tab thingy
15:07:45 <oklopol> BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
15:07:54 <fizzie> I don't think that has anything to do about whether to run each tab in a separate process.
15:07:59 <fizzie> oklopol: OH NOES BYE BYE
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15:08:40 <fizzie> (Why on earth am I even in this discussion? It's not like I care about tab-schmizzolation at all.)
15:08:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, but they can't be sandboxed. IIRC the tab separation thing is also about adding sandboxing to prevent non-intented system calls and such :)
15:09:01 * AnMaster goes back reading about SSA form
15:09:15 * fizzie goes back to preparing slides.
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16:20:16 <pikhq> Windows doesn't do PIC or COW or... Wow. How very backwards.
16:21:49 <pikhq> Actually, it does have PIC and it does COW on forks.
16:22:07 <pikhq> (as would any sane OS. Seriously, COW at page level is trivial.)
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16:30:41 <GregorR-L> CESSMASTER, master of cesspools, has a very odd nick ... DRAMATICALLY! Can one "have" dramatically?
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17:35:38 <GregorR-L> I just reverted multiple weeks worth of changes to the autocomposer :P
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17:47:23 <GregorR-L> Cess is just what you find in a cesspool, right? :P
17:50:23 <lament> cess is a game played on a 7x8 board
17:53:39 <GregorR-L> So, is a game played on a 3x8 board?
18:02:04 <pikhq> The layout is as follows:
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20:20:13 <ehird> 10:50:15 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I never met people so stupid here in Sweden FYI
20:20:20 <ehird> stupid != unknowledgeable about computers.
20:20:45 <ehird> 10:47:45 <GregorR-L> ehird: The weirdest thing is that everyone AGREES to the wrong definition ...
20:21:03 <GregorR-L> But that's beyond ignorance. Ignorance is fine.
20:21:04 <ehird> well, there's one person who gets it right
20:21:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: they legitimately think that and haven't been exposed to any contrary definition
20:21:31 <ehird> what part of that involves them being stupid?
20:21:51 <GregorR-L> I didn't say it was stupid, just that it's not /just/ unknowledgeable/ignorant.
20:22:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: what is it, then?
20:22:37 <GregorR-L> Depends on how they came to know that definition.
20:23:21 <GregorR-L> The sheer consistency suggests a minority population stupid and majority population misinformed.
20:25:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: but that just reflects people in general
20:25:31 <ehird> (ok, you could make an argument most people are stupid, but misanthropes aren't very good statisticians :P)
20:26:03 <GregorR-L> ehird: What are you, antimisanthropic? Misanthropes are people too. Stupid fucking idiots, like all people, but still people.
20:26:29 <ehird> So, mismisanthropic?
20:26:44 <GregorR-L> And the winner of this year's Miss Misanthropic prize is,
20:27:26 -!- whtspc has joined.
20:27:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm antimisantidisestablishmentarianism. So I'm against people who think that everyone who opposes the removal of the Church of England's status as the state church of Ireland and Wales are stupid.
20:28:21 <lament> ehird: you're an -ism?
20:28:32 <ehird> jism. People who don't like the J programming language.
20:29:23 <GregorR-L> (The correct response, by the way, is "not on my turf!")
20:30:08 <lament> because it's just poor man's APL?
20:30:17 <ehird> CESSMASTER: Because they're nazis.
20:30:28 <ehird> lament: Oh, yeah? Well, so's YOUR MOM.
20:30:32 <GregorR-L> lament is a multi-millionnaire playboy.
20:30:58 * pikhq is opposed to the mere idea of a state church
20:31:10 * ehird opposed to the mere idea of a church :P
20:31:58 * pikhq beats ehird with nontheist religions
20:32:14 <ehird> pikhq: What have nontheist religions got to do with churches?
20:32:35 <pikhq> Some of them possess something that could be called a "church".
20:32:41 * GregorR-L beats pikhq with phrases that needlessly dilute the meaning of perfectly meaningful words.
20:32:55 <ehird> pikhq: That would require me to support nontheist religions, too.
20:32:59 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Unfortunately, "church" has too many meanings.
20:33:09 <lament> David slowed his pace as his ears, antimisantidisestablishmentarianism.
20:33:14 <ehird> But all religions are superstitious, so I don't see why your argument should hold water with me.
20:33:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: Buddhism is a nontheist religion.
20:33:31 <ehird> Religion is just a superstitious belief system.
20:33:47 <lament> the belief in the law of excluded middle is superstitious.
20:34:02 <ehird> lament: I'd so spend the time rebutting that but I do it way too fucking much :)
20:34:14 <Slereah> lament : It is not superstition, it is axiom
20:34:23 <lament> Slereah: so is the existence of God.
20:34:25 <ehird> tl;dr religions have several factors differing themselves in major ways to mathematics
20:34:26 <Slereah> Math people don't have to think it true
20:34:45 <Slereah> There's plenty of logic without excluded middle
20:35:42 <GregorR-L> Am I the only person offended by Slereah's needless use of a racially-loaded word? Why has nothing been done about this, e.g. a kickban.
20:36:13 <lament> Slereah: Last warning. This is a nigger-free channel.
20:36:23 <GregorR-L> ...............................................
20:36:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: Because (a) nobody gives a shit, (b) he's from the *chans, so he gets a free pass, (c) we pretty much have an anarchy (yeah okay lament's gonna do something just to dissuade that notion :)), (d) you have /ignore and finally (e) you're probably trolling me.
20:37:06 <ehird> Slereah was born in /b/.
20:37:18 <Slereah> (ehird doesn't care because he is a /prog/lodyte)
20:37:30 <ehird> Slereah: We are much more esteemed than your ilk.
20:37:41 <ehird> Incidentally, GregorR-L, nigger.
20:37:55 <pikhq> Ah, but I am of Slashdot.
20:37:58 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
20:37:59 <pikhq> Incidentally, ehird, goatse.cx
20:38:12 <Slereah> ehird : /prog/ is full of tablecats and shit
20:38:13 <ehird> (ais523 left because we're talking about niggers. I will bet $10 on this.)
20:38:28 <Slereah> It's one step removed from /vip/
20:38:34 <Slereah> All you need is some more JEWS
20:38:36 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
20:38:41 <ehird> Slereah: the /vip/ people are invading /prog/
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20:39:09 <ehird> pikhq: coolfreeringtones.on.nimp.org
20:39:35 <ehird> ais523: Oh come on, nobody would click that.
20:39:45 <Slereah> But it is COOL FREE RINGTONES!
20:39:57 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, why didn't you warn me about his goatse.cx link?
20:40:00 <ehird> I'm very offended.
20:40:34 <Slereah> Actually, DQN made a real COOL FREE RINGTONES
20:40:39 <pikhq> ais523: Goatse.cx no longer exists, anyways.
20:40:48 <Slereah> If I could use a custom ringtone on my cellphone, it would be that
20:40:50 <ehird> It exists, it just doesn't have goatse on it.
20:41:00 <ais523> I've seen about the top 50 pixels of goatse
20:41:03 <ehird> Just not a NSFW goatse.
20:41:14 <ais523> it was loading very slowly, and I guessed it was goatse before it had fully loaded
20:41:20 <ais523> so I looked away and pressed back on the keyboard
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20:41:23 <ais523> before I saw the rest of it
20:41:48 <Slereah> http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/COOL_FREE_RINGTONE.mp3
20:41:50 <ehird> the first time I saw goatse was when the computer i used was in clear view of anyone in the living room with just a flick of their head
20:41:52 <ehird> and it loaded quickly
20:41:58 <ehird> that was an agonizing leap for the close tab button :D
20:42:08 <ehird> (after the obligatory 3 seconds of shock)
20:45:58 <ehird> 10:52:23 <AnMaster> lament, spiders
20:45:58 <ehird> 10:52:26 <AnMaster> is the technical term
20:46:08 <ehird> I hereby accuse AnMaster of taking lament seriously.
20:46:38 <ehird> 10:54:36 <AnMaster> he should fix align. To not assume mirc style. I think mirc is rather uncommon in this channel
20:46:45 <ehird> the only common client doing other things is xchat
20:46:54 <ehird> irssi, limechat, clog... all do it the mirc way
20:47:02 <ehird> hmm maybe not chatzilla
20:47:07 <ehird> only a few use chatzilla
20:47:46 <ehird> i think ERC might do it by default too
20:48:49 <ehird> 11:01:39 <AnMaster> I find irssi a very poor irc client
20:48:49 <ehird> 11:01:45 <AnMaster> unless you stay on freenode only
20:48:52 <ehird> wtf is poor about irssi
20:49:16 <ehird> 11:02:55 <GregorR-L> pikhq: VMWare on OS X, which is garbage-o and 32-bit even on a 64-bit proc.
20:49:18 <ehird> just install linux
20:49:29 <ehird> 11:02:30 <AnMaster> it seriously messes up on irc servers with more prefixes than +%@
20:49:29 <ehird> 11:02:41 <AnMaster> like those having ~& too
20:49:30 <ehird> no... no it doesn't
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20:51:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: Hello, not-nigger.
20:51:24 <GregorR-L> Your stupidity can't fool me, I have logs :P
20:52:31 <ehird> who wants their mind frazzled
20:52:40 <ehird> "semiconductor intellectual property core"
20:52:43 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_intellectual_property_core
20:55:04 * GregorR-L looks up from drinking a glass of melted butter, to his chagrin.
20:55:22 <ehird> HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD OVERTHINK A PLATE OF BEANS.
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20:59:27 <ehird> 11:39:24 <GregorR-L> It wouldn't have been that complicated to figure out that it was PROBABLY on the Wikipedia page "Gold" X_X
20:59:28 <ehird> 11:39:24 <GregorR-L> Yeesh
20:59:30 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22Gold+reacts+differently,+depending+on+subtle+relativistic+effects+that+affect+the+orbitals+around+gold+atoms.%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:59:34 <ehird> it's only the first result and all
20:59:55 <ehird> 11:41:12 <Deewiant> quicksearch?
20:59:55 <ehird> 11:41:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, an alias for asking ehird on irc :D
21:00:06 <ehird> no, that's (\_ -> undefined)
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21:02:12 <ehird> 11:47:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, is this a reference to Discworld?
21:02:21 <ehird> Everything is a discworld reference if all you know is discworld.
21:02:58 <ehird> 11:49:34 <pikhq> Since, well... New DVDs are $10. RedBox rentals are $1/night.
21:02:58 <ehird> 11:49:37 <pikhq> What's the point?
21:03:04 <ehird> and piracy is $0/forever!
21:03:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: what kind of piracy costs money?
21:03:51 <GregorR-L> It's a stochastic $0 or $rand(1, 100)K
21:03:57 <ehird> well apart from the reselling kind
21:03:57 <GregorR-L> ehird: The kind you get caught and sued for.
21:04:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: the riaa hasn't actually won against anyone.
21:04:17 <ehird> mostly out-of-court settlements
21:04:31 <GregorR-L> How many in-court cases have they had?
21:04:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: anyway, what if you jaywalk right after getting a redbox dvd
21:04:49 <GregorR-L> ORLY? I thought almost everybody settled out of court *shrugs*
21:04:57 <ehird> that's what I meant
21:05:02 <ehird> they've never won anything
21:05:10 <ehird> just extorted money from people out of court
21:05:26 <GregorR-L> Right, but if they've had "tons" of in-court cases they lost, that's significant.
21:05:39 <ehird> 11:52:12 <AnMaster> or tv
21:05:39 <ehird> 11:52:44 <AnMaster> I have no TV either, I do have an old VHS unit
21:05:43 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694
21:05:50 <GregorR-L> I thought they were doing more of a we-don't-want-to-really-go-to-court-because-if-we-lose-then-we-lose-all-clout thing.
21:06:17 <ehird> it's possible they've settled every single case out of court.
21:06:24 <ehird> i'm fairly sure they haven't won.
21:06:39 <GregorR-L> So am I, but I thought it was because they'd never gone to court.
21:06:45 <ehird> "The RIAA's goals[1] are:
21:06:45 <ehird> to protect [...] the First Amendment [...]"
21:06:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: Uh, I'm fairly sure they have gone to court.
21:07:14 <pikhq> And not one case that has gone to court is done yet.
21:08:03 <pikhq> Exactly one has even had the initial court case go through all the way -- and that case in question was pronounced a mistrial, IIRC.
21:09:14 <pikhq> They've had a fuckton of settlements.
21:10:58 <ehird> pikhq: metric fuckton?
21:13:07 <ehird> pikhq: erm, metric = SI usually
21:13:13 <ehird> for meter kilo etc
21:13:21 <ehird> Metric system, a system of units developed in France in the 18th century
21:13:22 <ehird> International System of Units, or Système International (SI), the international system of units since 1960, a subset of the former
21:14:11 <pikhq> Some units are metric but not SI.
21:14:34 <ehird> "metric foo?" "SI"
21:14:41 <ehird> same thing if foo is in SI
21:14:43 <pikhq> And some SI units are not metric.
21:14:46 <ehird> so "metric fuckton" → "SI fuckton" is sily.
21:14:52 <ehird> pikhq: wikipedia disagrees.
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21:17:47 <ehird> 13:09:04 <augur> then shut the fuck up with your stupid bullshit 13:09:20 <augur> you do this all the fucking time 13:09:46 <augur> you dont pay attention to the channel, and then you get into these fucking arguments because you dont know what the fuck people said 13:09:52 <augur> but you act like you DO know
21:17:52 <ehird> people angry at anmaster make me glee with glee.
21:17:55 <ehird> yes, glee is a verb
21:18:37 <ehird> 13:19:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't have time to try to figure out what this joke is. So I won't.
21:18:49 <ehird> AnMaster: in such a hurry that he has no time for IRCing; which is why he wasn't talking in here. Wait.
21:19:46 <pikhq> ehird, logreader extraordinare.
21:19:55 <ehird> pikhq: It's kind of an addiction.
21:19:56 <GregorR-L_> ehird: Yes, as a verb is one way you can sheeple glee.
21:20:06 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Stop weirding language.
21:20:19 <ehird> 16:30:13 --- join: oklopol (i=oklopol@a91-156-18-48.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #esoteric
21:20:19 <ehird> 16:30:23 <oklopol> what's new
21:20:21 <ehird> 16:39:29 --- nick: comex -> c_
21:20:23 <ehird> 16:39:58 <oklopol> well, see you in a few months :)
21:20:25 <ehird> 16:40:12 <oklopol> or, well, when internet starts flowing in my apartment again
21:20:27 <ehird> 16:40:14 <oklopol> ->
21:20:29 <ehird> 16:40:19 --- quit: oklopol ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi")
21:20:31 <ehird> ONLY A FLEETING GLIMPSE
21:20:33 <ehird> BUT MY HEART HAS GROWN FONDER
21:20:50 <ehird> 19:18:36 <bsmntbombdood> wow
21:20:50 <ehird> 19:18:44 <bsmntbombdood> why would Xorg be using 1.2 gb ram?
21:20:51 <ehird> because it sees you aren't using your 12gb
21:20:54 <ehird> so it decided to take 10%
21:21:05 <ehird> 19:26:48 <pikhq> Wow. Zicam can cause anosmia. 'Fun'.
21:21:20 <ehird> HURF DURF HOMEOPATHY
21:21:22 <pikhq> I am currently doing something very, very silly.
21:21:43 <pikhq> This brought to you by IRC in Screen via SSH from a virtual machine to localhost.
21:21:50 <pikhq> The virtual machine in question is running Cygwin.
21:21:58 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Zicam is a retarded homeopathic thing.
21:22:13 <ehird> It has bad side effects!!!12121
21:23:44 <ehird> GregorR-L_: It's homeopathy.
21:23:58 <GregorR-L_> Is it purported to do anything useful? :P
21:25:28 <ehird> pikhq: So, uh, why are you surprised homeopathic "remedies" aren't fluffy bunnies and magical cures? :P
21:25:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:25:52 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
21:26:06 <ehird> "In September 2003, Zicam (which claims on its label to be "homeopathic") faced lawsuits from users who claimed that the product negatively affected their sense of smell, and sometimes taste. In January 2006, 340 lawsuits were settled for $12 million.[9] In early 2004, at the height of the controversy"
21:26:19 -!- coppro has joined.
21:26:20 <ehird> (OK, so on the 16th the FDA told people not to use it. But c'mon.)
21:26:44 <GregorR-L> Don't you know that "natural" = "safe"?!
21:26:55 <GregorR-L> Go out into the forest and eat anything you can find, and you'll be healthier!
21:27:08 <GregorR-L> Especially leaves with weird prickly bits or bright colors.
21:27:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, if they literally just did the dilution a ton of times (so it's more effective, you see) into water, it'd be perfectly safe!
21:27:33 <ehird> Unless the provably more than the agent amounts of Francis Bacon's pee in it are feeling particularly toxic today.
21:27:41 <ehird> Wow that was an awkward sentence
21:27:44 <ehird> Can you tell I wrote it non-linearly?
21:27:49 <GregorR-L> UNRELATED: Y'know what would be hill-larry-us? If gaylick.com was a homoerotically-themed Gaelic language learning site.
21:28:26 <ehird> 20:38:10 --- join: oklopol (i=oklopol@a91-156-18-48.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #esoteric
21:28:26 <ehird> 20:38:15 <oklopol> morning
21:28:27 <ehird> 20:39:45 <oklopol> i'm not a programmer
21:29:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: SAYS MR HOMOEROTIC GAELIC
21:29:16 <pikhq> Quick! Type faster than ehird can read!
21:29:20 <pikhq> HE SHALL NEVER CATCH UP!
21:29:58 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Egobot could if you let him.
21:30:12 <ehird> THIRD REICH IS LIKE A BIKE
21:30:24 <ehird> pikhq: i once wrote a thingy that let you spawn a ton of clients and synchronize them talking
21:30:31 <ehird> and used it to do some one-message-per-user floodin
21:30:33 <pikhq> fungot: third reich
21:30:34 <fungot> pikhq: the pgimeno is a guy in fnord flares and a superman cape flying through a computer science wookie. i expected something better.
21:30:41 <ehird> you could spit out 300 lines in like 30 seconds
21:31:19 <ehird> 20:56:50 <augur> oklopol, whats your opinion of a programming language where you have to take certain core pieces of code, all of which are full programs, and compose them together to get other programs
21:31:26 <ehird> that's called point-free functional programming
21:32:33 <ehird> [[To many people, including Ron Owens, the word "some" refers to a relatively small amount in between "none" and "most". But To Ron's employer, and especially in the context of "job responsibly include... some maintenance of legacy VB6 applications"]]
21:32:42 <ehird> "most maintenance of legacy VB6 applications"
21:33:04 <GregorR-L> ehird: Whereas writing functional code in VB is called pointless functional programming?
21:33:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, lambdabot's @pl stands for pointless :P
21:33:23 <ehird> I was just trying to avoid that joke.
21:33:37 <ehird> 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
21:33:40 <ehird> the fourth linking of it today
21:33:44 <ehird> unless it happens again in the logs
21:33:47 <GregorR-L> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx // fifth
21:33:52 <ehird> 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.co
21:33:54 <ehird> m/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
21:34:09 <pikhq> Ah, the O(abcdefghijklmnopqr) algorithm. ^_^
21:34:52 <ehird> 21:18:24 <pikhq> God, a bare minimum of 2^18 function calls.
21:34:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:35:12 <Warrigal> I've come up with an algorithm for solving the traveling salesman problem that's O(n) in its running time.
21:35:23 <ehird> Warrigal: You can get $1,000,000.
21:35:31 <ehird> Warrigal: Now, where's the bit of that that's inaccurate?
21:35:36 <ehird> ais523: no, it just means P=NP
21:35:42 <ehird> ais523: but I highly doubt Warrigal proved that
21:35:45 <ais523> ehird: even if P=NP, it wouldn't be O(n)
21:35:49 <ais523> it would be O(n^something)
21:35:55 <oerjan> ais523: it _could_ be...
21:35:57 <ehird> ais523: is that for certain, though?
21:36:04 <Warrigal> By "in its running time", I mean n = running time.
21:36:23 <ehird> Count on Warrigal to do stuff like that.
21:36:24 <ehird> "Brooks Brown, Lucasarts: If Monkey Island re-release sells, other Lucasarts adventure titles will follow!"
21:36:29 * oerjan swats Warrigal -----###
21:36:29 <ehird> myndzi: celebrate with me! \o/ \m/
21:36:33 <Warrigal> It's probably pretty certain that there are no linear time algorithms for solving the NP-complete problems.
21:36:35 <ehird> myndzi: celebrate with me! \o/ \m/
21:36:43 <ehird> meh no \m/, I forgot how to trigger that thingy :P
21:37:21 <Warrigal> \a/ \b/ \c/ \d/ \e/ \f/ \g/ \h/ \i/ \j/ \k/ \l/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \p/ \q/ \r/ \s/ \t/ \u/ \v/ \w/ \x/ \y/ \z/
21:37:26 <ehird> myndzi: \m/ \o/ \m/
21:37:31 <ehird> myndzi: \o/ \m/ \m/
21:37:57 <ehird> lament: but that means he has really fucking tiny legs.
21:38:00 <lament> he added penises wherever he could
21:38:14 <ehird> myndzi and Slereah should hook up.
21:38:41 <ehird> \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/
21:38:51 <ehird> \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/
21:38:58 <GregorR-L> (I'm huge!)> \m/ \m/ \o/ <(I'm tiny!)
21:39:35 <lament> the dicks are about the same size, though
21:39:48 <pikhq> \o-o-o-o-o/ <(We're holding heads!)
21:40:07 <oerjan> Warrigal: if there is any polynomial algorithm for an NP-complete problem, it's not that unlikely that one has a linear one, since different NP-complete problems don't need to have the same polynomial
21:40:26 <oerjan> the reductions between them are only polynomial, not linear, after all
21:40:34 <ehird> Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis.
21:40:53 <GregorR-L> <ehird> Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis. // add this to your out-of-context quote list forever.
21:41:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, I have to become gay now just for you.
21:41:25 <GregorR-L> <ehird> Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis. // add this to your out-of-context quote list forever
21:41:27 <Warrigal> oerjan: I think it's impossible for any NP-complete problem to have an O(n) solution.
21:41:39 <ehird> 21:41 GregorR-L: Miss Copy X_X // add this to your etc
21:41:41 <oerjan> Warrigal: in fact it's easy to do it by cheating, if you have one (just pad the input of one polynomially)
21:41:49 <GregorR-L> <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, I have to become gay now just for you. // add THIS to your out-of-context quote list forever
21:43:54 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Arguably you can solve the "some idiot gave me too damn much data" problem in O(0) time by simply never taking all after some value n, then turning your "linear" algorithm into a faster non-linear one :P
21:44:30 <lament> some idiot gave me too damn much data :(
21:44:44 <oerjan> GregorR-L: um that only works if you can find the answer from the first n data
21:45:12 <oerjan> also, that's O(1), not O(0), i think
21:45:15 <GregorR-L> oerjan: I thought you were talking about turning e.g. an O(n^2) problem into an O(n) problem by just always providing junk data as part of the "input"
21:45:27 <GregorR-L> oerjan: /never/ doing something is O(0) :P
21:45:38 <ehird> O(constant) always = O(constant), no?
21:45:48 <ehird> well i guess O0 may be an exception.
21:45:55 <GregorR-L> O(bleh) is all functions computable in time bleh*k which is a constant.
21:46:09 <GregorR-L> Although 2*k just means you need a smaller k.
21:46:14 <lament> see, i can get a penis.
21:46:19 <tetha> lament: now that's an O-class I like
21:46:36 <ehird> lament: yes, but do you have a big O to put it in?
21:47:02 <oerjan> lament: more for the out-of-context quote list?
21:49:04 <oerjan> GregorR-L: and of course as you say, it will work for turning it into faster than linear O(n^(1/k)) as well
21:50:04 <oerjan> and even more, but then the resulting problem will not be NP-complete
21:50:24 <GregorR-L> Today, on Useless Problems in Computing
21:51:01 <ehird> 21:33:46 <augur> your problem is not that you stop thinking when you get annoyed with me
21:51:01 <ehird> 21:33:50 <augur> its that you never start thinking.
21:51:08 <ehird> augur oklopol isn't going to fuck you if you keep insulting his intelligence.
21:51:23 <oerjan> padding may be practically useless, but it is an important technique for theory iirc
21:52:23 * pikhq wants O(n^{A(G,G)})
21:52:24 <oerjan> *will not be NP-complete because it will require superpolynomial time to add the padding and reduce to it
21:52:38 <ehird> pikhq: 21:45 ehird: = O(A(g64,g64))
21:52:50 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, that's trivial to construct artificially ofc
21:52:54 <pikhq> ehird: Except that yours is O(1)
21:53:04 <ehird> i was using it to demonstrate that :P
21:53:27 <ehird> it occurs to me that I only have one patch to a public open source project that I know of
21:53:36 <ehird> i'm such a leecher :D
21:54:23 <GregorR-L> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/NPR-Is-Reading-My-Email,-Just-Fix-It!,--More-Support-Stories.aspx // second one in here is awesome
21:56:42 <ehird> http://gitweb.factorcode.org/gitweb.cgi?p=factor/.git;a=commitdiff;h=0719d8365337981d4ee2cc9c5f26be2fe023084d
21:56:47 <ehird> which was then promptly rewritten by slava as
21:56:48 <ehird> http://gitweb.factorcode.org/gitweb.cgi?p=factor/.git;a=commitdiff;h=86e5ddf449aa283ca3894b46b43cdd23df13bec7
21:57:07 <ehird> 1- signal-names nth; ← this is actually a syntax error :|
21:57:11 <ehird> (needs a space before ;)
21:57:16 <ehird> because i amended it without checking.
21:58:30 <ehird> 21:54:52 <pikhq> Out of curiosity, anyone with a good MIDI setup willing to do something with Opus 9?
21:58:30 <ehird> 21:55:22 <pikhq> Make an Ogg, really.
21:58:40 <ehird> hi there! I'm barry scott asking if you have problems with the OS X soundfont
21:58:43 <oerjan> <oklopol> this has been a treat, see you in a few months! <-- what, no!!
21:58:47 <ehird> No? Good! I'll make a ... wav, I guess.
21:59:13 <oerjan> he had just temporary access? :(
21:59:21 <ehird> pikhq: it sounds a bit whiney at points but meh
22:00:00 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:04:27 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
22:05:06 <ehird> pikhq: as soon as I install flac you shall have it
22:05:42 <pikhq> Nice work on not having it already, BTW. :P
22:05:47 <oerjan> don't give me any of that flac
22:06:03 <ehird> itunes doesn't support flac
22:06:06 <ehird> so i have no general use for it
22:06:15 <ehird> and i last reinstalled feb
22:06:20 <ehird> to upgrade to leopard
22:06:45 <ehird> opus 9 sounds... very italian.
22:06:55 <ehird> don't you agree, GregorR?
22:06:55 <ehird> (who is probably away)
22:07:16 <ehird> pikhq: meh, ALAC (apple's lossless) works for playback purposes
22:07:19 <ehird> it's just a bit bigger
22:08:10 <ehird> pikhq: I'm going to lzma --best both the .flac and the .wav and upload the smallest out of all of them :P
22:08:12 <ehird> for no particular reason
22:08:32 <pikhq> Alright. I strongly suspect straight FLAC is the winner.
22:09:01 <ehird> lzma inflates the flac, obviously
22:09:21 <pikhq> BTW, I can play ALAC, as well.
22:09:36 <ehird> ALAC is just for my music library :P
22:09:36 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
22:09:39 <pikhq> (it was reverse engineered back in '05, is now in libavcodec...)
22:10:37 <ehird> pikhq: Yah, lzma is 30mb vs flac's 18.3
22:10:41 <ehird> well lzma is 30.2 :P
22:10:56 <ehird> bzip2 might do better but LAZY
22:11:01 <pikhq> Specific compression scheme FTW!
22:11:48 <ehird> pikhq: but 7zip might compress it better
22:12:05 <pikhq> 7zip and lzma both use liblzma.
22:12:15 <pikhq> It's the same damned code doing the compression.
22:12:18 <ehird> pikhq: but if they didn't; 7zip could e.g. have an equivalent to -9
22:12:22 <ehird> and ok, I just didn't know that
22:12:30 <ehird> s/didn't;/didn't,/
22:12:30 <oerjan> <lament> Slereah: Last warning. This is a nigger-free channel. <-- ROFL
22:12:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:12:47 <ehird> oh i just got that
22:29:46 <GregorR> ehird: Like most great Italian tangos, huh :P
22:32:27 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:33:57 <GregorR> ehird: So, where's the FLAC? :P
22:34:15 <GregorR> I really want to hear this on slightly-better MIDI :P
22:34:26 <GregorR> (That melody was stuck in my head for literally years before I wrote that, btw)
22:34:38 * pikhq observes that Opus 8 is a great piece. Not getting the 'Italian' bit, though.
22:35:15 <pikhq> Oh, he did say 9, didn't he.
22:35:22 <pikhq> I can't say, since I've not heard the damned thing.
22:37:04 <GregorR> pikhq: I put up my ogg, btw :P
22:38:30 <GregorR> I may recommend waiting for ehird's.
22:38:37 <GregorR> My MIDI instruments for that are pretty terrible.
22:39:18 <pikhq> ... Shit, that's terrible MIDI.
22:39:38 <pikhq> It's like, there's only a handful of samples that are getting pitch-shifted.
22:39:58 <GregorR> Unfortunately, my current MIDI doesn't do cello well at all (you can barely hear it)
22:40:23 <pikhq> I can't listen to more. ehird, hurry up.
22:42:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:42:38 <GregorR> What is with all the MIDI soundfonts having terrible strings.
22:43:14 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:43:18 <pikhq> Lemme know if you find one with good strings; I need to bother installing soundfonts for my MP3 player.
22:44:50 <GregorR> Chorium is good with everything /except/ strings. Actually, it's strings aren't bad, they just assume legato.
22:44:55 <GregorR> Well, legato and largo, really.
22:45:18 <pikhq> Which is great and all, except that Opus 9 breaks its assumptions.
22:45:18 <GregorR> The cello in Chorium takes roughly six minutes to get from "started playing a note" to full volume.
22:49:37 <GregorR> Exaggeration for emphasis :P
23:03:59 <GregorR> I don't know what format media-convert.com uses, but it would be perfect if the violins weren't inaudibly quiet.
23:11:57 <augur> its not points free programming
23:12:08 <augur> i said full programs, not fill functions
23:14:54 <GregorR> pikhq: http://w5.media-convert.com/convert/index.php?pg=getmyfile&key=-1&xid=bdtmhple
23:15:04 <GregorR> Pretty good, although the violin isn't great.
23:15:45 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
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23:17:35 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
23:17:41 <pikhq> GregorR: Appears to be an ogg.
23:18:09 <GregorR> That would be because it is an ogg.
23:20:17 <GregorR> Bleh, somebody bringing this up really makes me want to somehow find an ensemble to perform it.
23:21:02 <pikhq> Who here plays violin, viola, or cello?
23:23:18 * oerjan plays violent -----###
23:23:34 <pikhq> So if you need someone to help perform "Kill Yourself", I'm your man. :P
23:23:41 <CESSMASTER> "i don't know how anybody can complain about too many violins on television"
23:23:49 -!- coppro has joined.
23:23:57 <lament> reminds me of the line from Misty
23:24:03 <lament> "walk my way / and a thousand violins begin to play"
23:26:46 <lament> love can be very emotionally painful
23:26:51 <lament> and that line conveys that wonderfully
23:29:10 <lament> looks more like a god knows what
23:29:33 <CESSMASTER> looks like some shit i saw at the BEMF
23:29:55 <CESSMASTER> my friend ended up buying that gamba he saw there
23:30:20 <lament> does he have aspergers?
23:31:02 <lament> i always wanted to do that
23:31:19 <lament> until i realized how retarded it is
23:31:48 <lament> i was at this concert at a guitar society
23:31:54 <lament> and everyone was, like, playing guitars
23:32:10 <lament> and this one guy had this fucked up thing with an extra neck that had ~20 sympathetic strings
23:32:31 <lament> and he played the most boring shit ever
23:32:45 <lament> with his eyes closed and great passion
23:33:01 <lament> for like ten minutes. really boring stuff that sounded like early music
23:33:13 <lament> don't think the sympathetic strings added anything either
23:33:18 <CESSMASTER> guitars are for chumps that don't want to play a lute
23:36:53 <GregorR> OK, I uploaded the score in .pdf.
23:37:35 <GregorR> http://codu.org/music.php // Opus 9. People brought it up again recently and it annoys me that it's MIDI :P
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23:46:47 -!- MACTRESSES has changed nick to ASSCRESTME.