00:04:04 <GregorR> You're sinking into the ebyss.
00:14:20 <GregorR> Everyone else except ehird.
00:14:34 <GregorR> Who will amazingly undo his memory in order to follow the backlog with you.
00:15:26 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from GregorR: 8.99 second(s)
00:15:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, a CTCP wouldn't highlight you anyway
00:18:15 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:20:25 * nooga does not read logs because he's convinced that there's nothing worth reading on the channel while his person is absent
00:20:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:20:48 <oerjan> yes, that's what we want you to think
00:21:45 * nooga is greping the logs
00:24:23 -!- ehird has joined.
00:24:33 <ehird> i'm just going to assume AnMaster has died in a fire now, la la laa
00:25:00 <ehird> hmm i felt the strangest feeling, just like someone said "fnord"
00:25:55 <AnMaster> ehird, good for you, because I'm actually busy reading a book. Not sure if you know of the author: Stephen Potter.
00:28:11 <ehird> <AnMaster> GregorR: no
00:28:17 <oerjan> could be Beatrix's great grandson...
00:28:24 <nooga> GregorR: yeah, i thought the same
00:28:53 <AnMaster> I'd just like to add one thing: Potter isn't a totally uncommon name in England afaik?
00:29:15 <nooga> I wonder if they give someone a surname Potter when he's smoking too much pot
00:29:16 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong, I didn't answer GregorR
00:29:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: well that's what they _want_ you to think, so you don't suspect their conspiracy
00:29:25 <GregorR> Stephen Potter is the English version of (American) John Smith.
00:29:29 <GregorR> (^^^ just making that up :P )
00:29:49 <nooga> AnMaster: at least I try
00:30:00 <AnMaster> nooga, potter, as in making pots.
00:30:15 <nooga> i know what pot is
00:30:17 <GregorR> AnMaster's masterful sense of humor at work again.
00:30:21 <oerjan> so nothing to do with potatoes then?
00:30:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, actually I'm pretending to not understand the joke
00:30:42 <ehird> nooga: I wonder if they give someone a surname Potter when he's smoking too much pot
00:30:42 <AnMaster> so thus it is double-reverse-humour or something.
00:31:09 <ehird> GregorR: AnMaster's thing used to be sarcasm you cannot possibly detect, now it's ignoring your joke and instead responding to it irritatingly
00:31:09 <GregorR> *joke detected, activating HUMOR MODE*
00:31:19 <ehird> humor? lame. i have a humour processor.
00:31:24 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29J3ZCtIYwY < I WANT ONE
00:31:42 * oerjan throws a pie (chromium free) in GregorR's face
00:31:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, is that a major or minor mode?
00:32:34 <AnMaster> apart from being a typoed mode ;P
00:33:17 <nooga> oh it's just a retarded meme
00:34:36 <AnMaster> someone should make a complete list of all major internet memes...
00:34:42 <AnMaster> Oh wait, I bet wikipedia has one already
00:35:19 <nooga> oerjan: enjoy your elder meme
00:35:51 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fqpp-IAXF0&feature=related < I WANT ONE
00:43:08 <augur> nooga: so dangerous
00:43:46 <ehird> augur: ssh, if he gets one he might kill himself with it
00:44:00 <augur> nooga: true. danger is awesome
00:44:49 <augur> gimme the pattern!
00:45:11 <ehird> just draw downwards ffs
00:45:22 <ehird> voila, fuzzy sierpinski diamond
00:45:33 <augur> it doesnt work for me!
00:45:37 <nooga> http://blip.tv/file/324976 << I just watched that, holy shit, that guy is probably on crack
00:45:51 <augur> simon peyton jones is awesome
00:45:56 <ehird> augur: make your hand less steady
00:46:26 <nooga> maybe he's awesome but the lecture isn't
00:46:35 <nooga> where are the slides?!
00:46:35 <augur> its an awesome lecture
00:46:38 <ehird> augur: just have a 1-3 pixel error every 30 vertical pixels or so
00:46:47 <augur> i was about to ask. thank you.
00:47:05 <ehird> in fact more like 55 vertical pixels
00:47:07 <nooga> i don't like to watch SPJ, I'd like to watch the thing he's talking about
00:47:33 <augur> ehird: i get noise.
00:48:11 <nooga> augur, ehird: where?
00:48:30 <ehird> augur: show me the screenshot i gave you of what you want and i'll give it
00:48:38 <augur> i dont have it! :|
00:49:05 <ehird> grep -ir 'FUCK BITCH ASS' .
00:49:26 <augur> insensitive, and ... ?
00:49:32 <ehird> recursive in directory, not files
00:52:22 <nooga> ehird: last evening i think i felt true awesomness of haskell
00:52:32 <ehird> augur: how many logs you have?
00:52:34 <augur> no, that was michael jackson's ghost.
00:52:36 <ehird> also you did run in log directory right
00:52:57 <augur> ive got 362 log files.
00:53:13 <ehird> then it should not take any time.
00:53:30 <augur> well its not going anything :|
00:54:41 <augur> nevermind. spotlight e.e
00:55:47 <augur> http://xs136.xs.to/xs136/09071/picture_1324.png
00:56:23 <Slereah> That's like half a sirpienski
00:56:28 <nooga> http://blip.tv/file/913860 < shat brix, i might say
00:56:31 <augur> its a dual sierpinski, actually.
00:57:14 <Slereah> So it turns out I have like over 100 euros in petty cash
00:57:20 <Slereah> Should I cash it in at the bank?
00:57:21 <ehird> augur: i don't know how i did that
00:57:27 <ehird> augur: too bad Life isn't reversible
00:57:32 <augur> i dont think its Life, to be honest
00:57:41 <Slereah> I fear haters hating, because they'd have to wait while I count my pennies
00:57:44 <augur> the noise looks unlifelike tho :(
00:57:53 <ehird> augur: just convert that png to an .rle and play it in golly
00:57:56 <ehird> and you'll see that it's life
00:58:04 <augur> anything will play in life. :P
00:58:14 <augur> howsa convert? is in golly?
00:58:28 <ehird> imagemagick to get it in a simple format
00:59:35 <augur> ehird, you refused to send me the file when you first did it
00:59:43 <augur> and now you say you cant remember how to do that
00:59:44 <ehird> augur: i had no file
00:59:48 <ehird> i do not save golly files
01:01:24 <augur> aha, i found your original source image that you showed me
01:02:01 <augur> ehird, might i quote from the logs
01:02:03 <augur> 15:12 ehird: psygnisfive: I have the .rle
01:02:03 <augur> 15:12 ehird: if you want
01:02:39 <augur> http://xs536.xs.to/xs536/09071/picture_2491.png
01:04:11 <nooga> i can't see that image
01:06:41 <augur> i do not think that is life.
01:06:58 <ehird> it is 100% certain life
01:07:02 <augur> and you're 100% wrong.
01:07:09 <ehird> you are wrong, have a nice day
01:07:47 <AnMaster> what's the point of that pic....
01:08:20 <ehird> a screenshot of golly.
01:08:41 <augur> ehird, you're wrong.
01:09:00 <ehird> augur: i like how you are aggressive to me when you're trying to get files out of me
01:09:06 <ehird> it's amusingly self-defeating
01:09:11 <ehird> s/aggressive/angry/; whatever
01:09:24 <augur> im not trying to get files out of you
01:09:27 <augur> i trust that you dont have the files
01:09:35 <ehird> you asked me repeatedly for the .rle
01:09:39 <augur> im just telling you you're wrong about it being life
01:09:51 <ehird> augur: have you converted and tested yet?
01:10:10 <augur> no, ehird, and i dont have to, because i know the decay products of that original line
01:10:17 <ehird> we know that life does sierpinski on straight lines, and i've tested today that it produces noisy sierpinski on uneven lines
01:10:23 <augur> any long vertical line in GoL will produce a proper sierpinski
01:10:35 <ehird> and crooked ones produce noisy sierpinskis
01:10:39 <ehird> i don't see what's so implausible about mine
01:10:41 <nooga> > let a = 1+1 in a `seq` a
01:10:47 <ehird> yes they do augur, i just tested it now
01:10:57 <oerjan> nooga: a `seq` a === a
01:11:41 <oerjan> well nothing is evaluated until a `seq` a is evaluated
01:11:47 <ehird> augur: http://filebin.ca/uvpgtw/untitled
01:12:00 <AnMaster> hm could you make a reversible game of life?
01:12:24 <AnMaster> while keeping similar (but not quite the same) rules
01:12:49 <ehird> just always save the previous cells, ignoring the
01:12:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:12:53 <oerjan> and when that happens, a is evaluated, for the first argument. then the second argument is evaluated, found to already be done, then returned.
01:13:16 <ehird> to reverse, remove oldness 0 cells, set cell of oldness N to N-1
01:13:16 <oerjan> nooga: although ghc probably optimizes it down to just a
01:13:30 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok, but for the pattern *** that would build a VERY large stack
01:13:42 <nooga> oerjan: but when i have threads and talk throught the net or something
01:13:51 <ehird> yes it would AnMaster
01:14:07 <ehird> oerjan: nooga seems to think haskell's IO stuff affects the language deeply
01:14:13 <ehird> feel free to attempt to disillusion him of this notion
01:14:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you could do cycle detection though
01:14:20 <augur> ehird, the only part of that thats noisy is the places where the line is jagged
01:14:30 <augur> the larger straight portions are not noisy sierpinskis
01:14:32 <ehird> augur: no it's not
01:14:35 <AnMaster> more than one pattern could cause the same next pattern
01:14:36 <ehird> the whole thing has a lot of gliders and shit
01:14:42 <oerjan> nooga: well everything needs to be indirectly required by some IO action to be evaluated
01:14:50 <augur> im looking at it right now
01:14:55 <augur> its nearly identical to a perfectly straight line
01:15:19 <ehird> it doesn't have the huge gliderfest that a perfectly straight one produces
01:15:28 <augur> the one he just linked to
01:15:38 <augur> its almost identical
01:15:45 <ehird> no it is not, shut up
01:15:49 <augur> yes it is you idiot
01:15:57 <AnMaster> http://filebin.ca/uvpgtw/untitled? application/octet-stream <--
01:16:07 <AnMaster> there is no clue what to open it with
01:16:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
01:16:47 <AnMaster> it isn't there? That's very unusual
01:17:09 <AnMaster> golly is not in gentoo portage it seems
01:17:14 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, it's linked with golly in the resource fork.
01:17:27 <ehird> may not be transmitted over the net. do not use while pregnant. requires os x. YMMV.
01:17:41 <oerjan> nooga: par is a ghc operator which in principle means the same as seq iirc, but where ghc tries to evaluate both sides in parallel
01:17:50 <augur> ehird: i get the same thing with a straight line.
01:17:54 <ehird> AnMaster's comprehension of language hits a new low
01:18:04 <ehird> try reading it a few dozen more times
01:18:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> may not be transmitted over the net. do not use while pregnant. requires os x. YMMV. <-- yes
01:18:14 <ehird> 01:17 ehird: AnMaster: actually, it's linked with golly in the resource fork.
01:18:15 <nooga> oerjan: quite cool i'd say
01:18:30 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't clear if it meant that specific part, or the entire thing
01:18:41 <ehird> AnMaster: it was incredibly clear.
01:18:56 <AnMaster> because you know what you meant
01:19:12 <ehird> to anyone who actually knows english........
01:19:16 <AnMaster> but ask some of the .fi people and I bet at least Deewiant would agree with me
01:20:22 <ehird> fuck you. to prove it i'd have to test it with every english-speaking person in the world, YOU cannot comprehend half of everything people say, and yet the only time you blame it on someone else explicitly is with me
01:20:35 <AnMaster> ehird, or a large subset at least
01:20:56 <augur> ehird: i agree, it was clear.
01:21:03 <augur> and since im a linguist, anmaster, shut up.
01:21:24 <AnMaster> but remember, most people in here speak English as their second language.
01:21:29 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel par :: a -> b -> b
01:21:29 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Frameset paragraph :: Html -> Html
01:21:29 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Strict paragraph :: Html -> Html
01:21:30 <ehird> non-native speaker != I only understand sentences if the moon is in the right phase
01:21:32 <AnMaster> (Didn't fizzie make some graph some time ago?)
01:21:49 <ehird> i have spoken to plenty of non-native speakers that barely make any errors, are eloquent, and understand most everything anyone says
01:21:57 <ehird> so please don't attribute it to "being non-native"
01:22:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think strawberries are delicious
01:22:36 <lament> non-native speakers am STUPID
01:22:45 <augur> ehird: i still dont get the double sierpinski, sorry.
01:22:58 <oerjan> rouge probabilities sound dangerous
01:23:02 <ehird> augur: it's ok, you can turn canadian instead.
01:23:11 <oerjan> although not quite as dangerous as rogue ones
01:24:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: also i've corrected errors from native speakers before
01:24:45 <lament> native speakers make correct errors
01:24:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah it's pretty arduous
01:24:58 -!- karla has joined.
01:25:47 <AnMaster> it is interesting, that for most words I have to google to find out what they mean, you get some definition as the top result *even without the define: prefix*
01:26:13 <AnMaster> this suggests those words are probably less used :P
01:26:38 <ehird> hello karla, who are you
01:26:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have yet to find out how rough = arduous
01:26:46 <karla> do you speak english?
01:26:53 <ehird> i'm talking in french
01:27:08 <nooga> once we've played with GoL and discovered that there is something that resembles doppler law in the world of ca - when information about cell's state comes to observer with lag equal to the distance between observer and the cell
01:27:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: well you'll have a rough time finding that out
01:27:11 <karla> so im speaking german
01:27:47 <AnMaster> and yeah I did, since it seems it can mean a lot of different things
01:27:48 <ehird> karla: so are you here for esoteric programming languages or what
01:27:57 <nooga> ... to ja może coś po Polſku dorzucę
01:28:17 <ehird> karla: how did you find out about us
01:28:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, använder du synonymordbok?
01:28:54 <ehird> i can't tell what frikipedia is
01:29:12 <GregorR> nooga: ... what language was that? I was unaware of ſ being in any language but English ...
01:29:14 <karla> its like the wikipedia
01:29:38 <AnMaster> considering where nooga is from
01:29:40 <karla> a parody of the wikipedia
01:29:55 <nooga> Polish, but with . in the beginig my filter worked
01:29:56 <ehird> oh, so uncyclopedia in spanish.
01:29:58 <AnMaster> THAT explains why ehird is here
01:30:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: you didn't know? well i guess that's expected from you
01:30:47 <GregorR> So, it's like Spanish Uncyclopedia.
01:30:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i do use define: quite a bit though
01:30:59 <AnMaster> now one question remains, why are we mentioned in it...
01:31:16 <GregorR> Wish I spoke Spanish ... after three years of Spanish in high school :P
01:31:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, can you recommend a good browser? Firefox is too slow, konq too bad support for web pages...
01:31:34 <karla> i dont speak english very well
01:32:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, so I end up avoiding browser a lot
01:32:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: you are asking a person who is still using IE? >:D
01:32:28 <ehird> AnMaster: oerjan uses IE.
01:32:42 <GregorR> Hola. No hablo Español, porque soy un estudiante mal. So, some joke page about some esoteric programming language then? :P
01:32:47 <ehird> hey, I think wine can run it.
01:32:47 <oerjan> probably repressed memory
01:32:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, seriously, Why not opera?
01:32:59 <karla> how old are you all??
01:33:08 <ehird> karla: i'm 13 and i speak english brilliantly. although this could be attributed to it being my first language.
01:33:22 <ehird> (for some values of brilliantly, admittedly)
01:33:37 <oerjan> brilliantly inventive spelling and grammar
01:33:45 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ ← this has our stuff.
01:33:48 <karla> you speak a little bit spanish?
01:34:18 <ehird> nooga: you just set the new record for last person to find out, congrats
01:34:29 <ehird> normally that'd be the person that just came in here a few minutes ago
01:34:38 <ehird> but nooga continually pushes the boundaries of stupidity!
01:34:43 <nooga> i don't really care
01:34:54 <karla> i tought this would be a spanish chat room
01:35:03 <ehird> karla: what gave you that impression?
01:35:09 <ehird> karla: can you link to the article you found this place from?
01:35:11 <nooga> why should i be concerned with your young age
01:35:19 <karla> because a i found this page in a spanish chat?>??
01:35:21 <ehird> nooga: you *did* ask...
01:35:21 <nooga> i'm not a pedobears pal
01:35:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: primality has nothing to do with base
01:35:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> but nooga continually pushes the boundaries of stupidity! <-- And you think I'm bad?
01:35:32 <karla> www.frikipedia.com
01:36:03 <ehird> karla: on the main page?
01:36:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, but 3 is a prime. thus base 3 must be a prime base. For certain values of certain.
01:36:30 <ehird> frikipedia.es actually
01:36:46 <oerjan> hm there's an english frikipedia too
01:36:51 <ehird> karla: and this thing opened up to #esoteric?
01:37:06 <ehird> very strange. we don't know of this frikipedia.
01:37:12 <ehird> ok it connects to freenode
01:37:17 <ehird> which is where #frikipedia is
01:37:23 <ehird> but we're just a random channel
01:37:39 <nooga> karla: type: /join #frikipedia
01:37:47 <GregorR> Wow, I'm lagged like crazy. I got all the lines back to my previous one in one go...
01:38:07 <nooga> GregorR: sue freenode and you ISP
01:38:12 <AnMaster> now this is an unusual misjoin
01:38:24 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
01:38:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it autojoins #frikipedia
01:38:37 -!- GregorR has joined.
01:38:39 <ehird> so i guess "hi" came out as "/part<ENTER>/join #esoteric"
01:38:44 <oerjan> "las lolis son agentes de la Guardia Civil y los Jocicuos son mujeres portuguesas ecofeministas
01:39:00 <oerjan> whatever that means...
01:39:11 <karla> ii know what that means
01:39:36 <ehird> the loli's son's agent is the Civil Guard's lost son of Jociuos, the portuguese eco-feminist
01:39:54 <ehird> (note: translation made by replacing each word with closest english equivalent while keeping grammatical structure)
01:40:11 <ehird> "kamuikd are the agents of the Guardia Civil and Jocicuos are Portuguese women ecofeministas"
01:40:28 <karla> this is the right one
01:40:29 <AnMaster> I guess the joke was lost in translation
01:40:41 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, it was a joke translation
01:40:47 <ehird> 01:39 ehird: (note: translation made by replacing each word with closest english equivalent while keeping grammatical structure)
01:40:55 <karla> kamukid are agents of the civil guard and the jocicuos are portuguese womene ecofeminist
01:41:01 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> "kamuikd are the agents of the Guardia Civil and Jocicuos are Portuguese women ecofeministas" <ehird> says google"
01:41:20 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for kamukid.
01:41:39 <nooga> ehird: go outside and play soccer with your school friends, that would be amusing
01:41:55 <oerjan> that's from #frikipedia's topic, anyway
01:42:00 <GregorR> They don't play soccer in the UK :P
01:42:03 <ehird> friends? seems i'm AnMaster, now I need to look up that word's definition
01:42:06 <ehird> also what GregorR said
01:42:09 <AnMaster> nooga, even I wouldn't want to force ehird to play football
01:42:20 <nooga> GregorR: I KNOW, that's the point
01:42:23 <ehird> AnMaster: i dunno, i'd fail very comically
01:42:27 <ehird> it could be amusing
01:42:29 <nooga> playing football in UK isn't nonsenical at all
01:42:32 <ehird> karla: "in the UK"
01:42:35 <GregorR> karla: Some tiny minority of us are :P
01:42:48 <karla> im the only girl here?
01:42:52 <GregorR> karla: <-- US, ehird is in the UK, the rest are mostly from various countries.
01:42:55 <karla> am i the only girl herE?
01:43:04 <nooga> i'm almost certain that he can only play on my nerves :F
01:43:13 <GregorR> karla: Unless somebody's holding out on us :P
01:43:17 <ehird> karla: that-other-guy (err gal) in here yesterday was female.
01:43:20 <AnMaster> this channel is about programming though
01:43:23 <ehird> also sukoshi was female but that was years ago
01:43:34 <ehird> AnMaster: i see your topic-fucking has done a load of good
01:43:38 <oerjan> karla: ooh maybe you shouldn't join #frikipedia after all then, "el canal donde los hombres son hombres, las mujeres son hombres, las lolis
01:43:40 <ehird> karla: do you know what programming is?
01:43:47 <ehird> oerjan: what does that mean :p
01:43:57 <karla> i dont know what your talking about
01:44:05 <AnMaster> ehird, not mine. And as the say "they will always design a better idiot" ;P
01:44:08 <oerjan> the channel where the men are men, the women are women, and ...
01:44:09 <ehird> karla: coding computers.
01:44:15 <AnMaster> no offence meant to you ehird!
01:44:23 <ehird> AnMaster: what about offense
01:44:41 <oerjan> *the channel where the men are men, the women are men, and then the last thing i posted
01:44:44 <AnMaster> ehird, aspell thinks "offense" doesn't exist.
01:45:05 <ehird> AnMaster: aspell is mentally retarded.
01:45:20 <GregorR> Spelling offence with a 'c' is pretty offencive.
01:45:24 <nooga> ehird: what about your driving license
01:45:42 <AnMaster> ehird, actually: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/offence
01:45:55 <ehird> AnMaster: nobody says offence
01:46:06 <AnMaster> ehird, except aspell's en-GB wordlist yeah
01:46:10 <nooga> m is far from f on us keyboard
01:46:17 <ehird> AnMaster: it needs both
01:46:17 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe I should use en-US?
01:46:31 <ehird> AnMaster: spellings
01:46:33 <ehird> also, cat together en-*
01:46:38 <karla> can i speka spanish ?/
01:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that would say color was correct spelling
01:46:49 <oerjan> i take opphence at this spelling
01:46:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it would say both are.
01:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, which would be horrible
01:46:58 <ehird> also, color is a fine word.
01:47:04 <nooga> þou ſhall not paſs
01:47:12 <ehird> http://cowbirdsinlove.com/comics/simplephilosophy1.png
01:47:43 <karla> les gusta la pizza?
01:47:44 <ehird> karla: well can you speak it?
01:47:55 <karla> soy hispanohablante
01:48:08 <ehird> "spanish, motherfucker! do you speak it?"
01:48:21 <ehird> in an alternate universe!
01:48:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I love the first one especially.
01:49:12 <ehird> wow, AnMaster has a sense of humour!
01:49:20 <nooga> me llamo martin, me hablo espanol un poco
01:49:28 <ehird> maybe AnMaster's humour and humor sensors are defective; he has both
01:49:36 <ehird> but they both have a ton of misfires and false negativse
01:49:39 <AnMaster> ehird, ... it is well known that I do ... Just tuned to a different frequency than most other people.
01:49:41 <ehird> so you have to find the subset
01:49:49 <ehird> i wonder which one is less defective?
01:49:53 <ehird> probably the humour one
01:50:01 <nooga> NOW IS TIME FOR A LATE NIGHT CIGARETTE!!!???????!?!111111
01:50:10 <ehird> <nooga's lungs> ABSOLUTELY!
01:50:45 <karla> yo are my best friend
01:50:55 <nooga> wow, that's an achievement
01:51:25 <AnMaster> oh, I don't want to cause any offence to anyone.
01:51:35 <AnMaster> lets just say it is related to the topic.
01:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: starts with a k ends with an arla?
01:51:48 <ehird> we could be trolling her right now.
01:52:07 <ehird> karla: trolling means "oboe"
01:52:12 <ehird> "playing oboe at" in particular
01:52:19 * ehird plays the oboe at karla
01:52:55 <karla> can anybody help me to speak english???
01:52:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Swedish Schwarzenegger!
01:52:57 <nooga> yea, me too, i've got iphone pain-work to do
01:53:20 <AnMaster> ehird, which movie was that from.
01:53:26 <AnMaster> it wasn't an intentional quote
01:53:26 <nooga> karla: i'm sure that ehird can help you with that, he's native after all
01:53:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well drop the "later"
01:53:42 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'll_be_back
01:53:55 <ehird> nooga: i'm almost certain the english are migrants.
01:54:06 <karla> carlita_bonita94@hotmail.com
01:54:19 <ehird> karla: this probably isn't the channel you want.
01:54:27 <nooga> ehird: me not understanding
01:54:47 <ehird> nooga: i'm not a native of England if you go far backe nough ;-)
01:56:10 <nooga> uh, I'm half German, quarter Lithuanian, quarter Norwegian and i speak Polish and English
01:56:21 <ehird> nooga: wait you're not any polish?
01:56:31 <ehird> nooga: please be part polish
01:56:50 -!- karla has left (?).
01:57:06 <ehird> nooga: argh! a friend-of-a-friend is a guy who's insanely lithuanian patriotic and hates poles with the fury of a billion sons
01:57:10 <ehird> you would make him explode
01:57:42 <nooga> my grandmother and grandfather form the german side were living in the same place during their whole life - but the terrains suddenly changed from german to polish
01:57:48 <oerjan> and to think poles and lithuanians almost had an empire...
01:58:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> nooga: i'm not a native of England if you go far backe nough ;-) <-- how many generations?
01:58:33 <ehird> AnMaster: many; this family is entirely british
01:58:36 <ehird> prolly anglo-saxon
01:58:56 <nooga> ehird: and you have this terrible accent and you're ginger
01:59:03 <AnMaster> oh and I know some very very distant forefather was actually Polish. Emigrated to Sweden around 1660 or so iirc.
01:59:05 <ehird> and i don't have an accent
01:59:11 <ehird> well a slight british one, but nothing beyond that
02:00:04 <AnMaster> (My grandmother on my farther's side used to be into genealogy)
02:00:15 <nooga> i used to have undistinguishable accent (like from tv host) but suddenly it became quite "russian", i bet that's because i don't speak english too much
02:00:51 <ehird> AnMaster: farther is side?
02:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, just checking you were alert</retcon>
02:01:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it's even more invalid now
02:01:26 <ehird> "fathers side" is even more incorrect
02:01:36 <ehird> "farthers side" is even more incorrect
02:01:40 <ehird> AnMaster: drop the r, reinstate the '
02:04:04 <nooga> ehird: nooga: argh! a friend-of-a-friend is a guy who's insanely lithuanian patriotic and hates poles with the fury of a billion sons << now I know a friend-of-a-friend who is insanely polish patriotic and he hates everyone with the fury of billion sons
02:04:17 <ehird> apart from polish people i assume
02:04:25 <nooga> and here's the best part: all his freinds are the same
02:04:35 <nooga> better, 1/3 of our nation is the same
02:05:33 <GregorR> So we're talking about genealogy then?
02:05:55 <GregorR> <-- Briton with a side of Jew
02:06:07 <ehird> GregorR: NWO NWO NWO
02:06:21 <ehird> I bet you're a REPTILIAN BANKER.
02:06:26 <nooga> GregorR: but you're not one of that evil Zionists ?
02:06:39 <GregorR> I should put up a picture of my face in profile :P
02:06:55 <GregorR> Suffice to say that if I ever needed to convince somebody that I'm Jewish, that'd do it.
02:07:40 <nooga> that will be evil:
02:07:41 <ehird> i wonder if any jews get nose reduction
02:07:48 <nooga> now, cut vs. uncut, discuss
02:08:00 <ehird> so they can be secret jews
02:08:02 <GregorR> nooga: Uh, are you referring to circumcision?
02:08:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> GregorR: NWO NWO NWO <-- Detected probable meme.... Searching database... Meme not found.
02:08:07 <ehird> GregorR: no, noses.
02:08:18 <ehird> AnMaster: New World Order; see Zionist conspiracies and the like.
02:08:25 <ehird> GregorR: nose. circumcision.
02:08:26 <GregorR> I find it fairly shocking that we live in a society that totally accepts ritualistic mutilation of infant penises.
02:08:44 <ehird> you would say that just to throw us off, GregorR
02:08:56 <nooga> don't be riddiculous ehird
02:09:09 <ehird> Circumcision is how they brand their pray, it's like 666 but for penises
02:09:30 <GregorR> ehird: Idonno about the UK, but in the USA circumcision is pretty much the norm regardless of religious background.
02:09:42 <ehird> GregorR: yeah, 's weird
02:09:49 <ehird> i don't think circumcision is done in the uk at all basically
02:10:15 <ehird> i don't think you -can- get it done on birth
02:10:43 <ehird> "By 1975, only 6 per cent of boys born in the UK were circumcised."
02:10:49 <GregorR> Y'know, there are Jews that live in the UK :P
02:10:56 <nooga> ehird: but you can't say a bad word to a muslim who calls you an animal
02:11:08 <ehird> nooga: i say "bad words" to all religion
02:11:14 <GregorR> nooga: You are an animal. As are we all.
02:11:20 <ehird> GregorR: i don't think doctors will circumcise at birth, is what i mean
02:11:27 <nooga> (they'll explode with rage and clumsy, engish police will run for their lives)
02:12:40 <GregorR> "In the United States, about 70 percent to 80 percent of boys are circumcised, whereas, in Europe the majority of boys are not circumcised."
02:14:13 <GregorR> Apparently the USA is 70-80% Jewish. Who knew.
02:14:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, that can't be quite correct?
02:14:47 <augur> of circumcised guys
02:15:05 <AnMaster> so lots of non-jews being circumcised?
02:15:16 <GregorR> Yes, the vast majority in fact. It's still weird :P
02:16:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is the percentage of jews in US?
02:16:17 <GregorR> Idonno, substantially less than 70% X-D
02:16:19 <augur> probably near 10% maybe?
02:16:29 <GregorR> That seems a bit high, but maybe *shrugs*
02:16:43 <AnMaster> what is the other secret religion practising circumcising in US then...
02:16:49 <augur> ah, cia world factbook says 1%
02:16:57 <augur> anmaster: white people.
02:17:08 <GregorR> It's not a religious thing.
02:17:13 <augur> apparently 25% of americas jews live in new york city
02:17:20 <oerjan> my understand was someone in US convinced people circumcision was actually healthy at some point...
02:17:21 <augur> anmaster: have you never seen those black jews who hate white jews?
02:17:33 <GregorR> oerjan: Yup. It's a widely-agreed-upon silly lie.
02:17:37 <AnMaster> augur, how much of this is due to so many people living there anyway?
02:17:38 <augur> the reasoning is, "omg you'll get the aids if you dont get circumcised"
02:17:53 <augur> anmaster: only like 3% of the population is in nyc tho
02:18:01 <augur> or something like that.
02:18:11 <GregorR> And yet, 75% of the accents are there. Strange.
02:18:18 <AnMaster> augur, ok, so I guess it *can* be statistical significant then
02:18:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: there are some quite black jews, from Ethiopia
02:18:26 <augur> nyc is ~10m, whole counter is ~300m, so 1/30 of americans are in NYC
02:18:39 <augur> oerjan: i didnt mean those
02:18:59 <GregorR> The problem is that "Jewish" refers to both a race and a religion.
02:19:01 <augur> i meant the crazy american black jews that are pronazi because the white jews are fake jews who oppressed the black jews
02:20:44 <oerjan> augur: um i thought the widespread circumcision in the USA was far older than the aids scare
02:21:03 <augur> oerjan: possibly, but its the same general idea.
02:21:07 <oerjan> like from the fifties at least..
02:21:13 <augur> "omg you gotta get circumcized otherwise you'll have to wash your cock"
02:21:30 <augur> we should just cut of peoples bodies
02:21:36 <augur> otherwise they'd have to wash.
02:21:38 <oerjan> augur: whereas some _have_ actually suggested it helps against aids, in africa
02:21:56 <augur> oerjan: it might. you know what REALLY helps against aids in africa? condoms.
02:22:00 <augur> and not being catholic.
02:22:05 <augur> unfortunately africa has lots of neither.
02:22:12 <nooga> yea, because skin is probably thicker and less likely to absorb the virus
02:22:25 <oerjan> oh there are plenty of african protestants and muslims too...
02:22:39 <augur> oerjan: sure, but they're not getting aids because they were condoms.
02:22:48 <augur> the catholic church specifically tells africans not to wear condoms.
02:22:51 <GregorR> THIS CONVERSATION TOO WEIRD
02:22:57 <oerjan> augur: [citation needed]
02:23:00 <GregorR> The catholic church tells EVERYONE not to where condoms.
02:23:05 <augur> this is true, GregorR
02:23:12 <oerjan> on the "they're not getting aids" part
02:23:13 <augur> but not everyone is an african with a high risk of getting aids.
02:23:57 <GregorR> This is why I canceled my "getting transportation through sexual favors tour of Africa"
02:24:18 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Africa_HIV-AIDS_300px.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Religion_distribution_Africa_crop.png
02:24:24 <augur> aids trends with being christian in africa
02:24:24 <ehird> so an extreme shortage of not being catholic
02:24:30 <ehird> is that like having the inventory item no tea?
02:24:50 <nooga> ehird: you're 13, you can't even legally use your penor
02:25:00 <GregorR> nooga: Well that's just wildly incorrect :P
02:25:11 <augur> nooga: in spain and the netherlands he can
02:25:16 <ehird> nooga: that's just plain false, i can do most anything with it apart from put it in somebody else.
02:25:16 <augur> ehird, wanna go to amsterdam? ;o
02:25:28 <ehird> i like the idea of someone not urinating until they're 18
02:25:33 <nooga> oh yes, taking to accound that 70% of 13-year old girls in the UK are preggo
02:25:36 <ehird> "are you pregnant?" "no, i just haven't pissed for years"
02:25:43 <Slereah> There was a monty python sketch like that
02:25:52 <Slereah> In the German version of Flying Circus
02:26:00 <GregorR> Idonno about UK law, but age of consent in the US applies to sex over the age-of-consent boundaries; if two 14 year olds have sex, they haven't done anything worse than make probably really stupid decisions.
02:26:11 <augur> http://www.religiouslyremapped.info/map4/content.html
02:26:13 <nooga> ehird: nooga: that's just plain false, i can do most anything with it apart from put it in somebody else. < that's what i actually meant
02:26:14 <ehird> here we get jail time for that
02:26:34 <GregorR> ehird: Then I agree with nooga :P
02:26:36 <ehird> GregorR: we've also prosecuted underaged people for giving naked pics of themselves to their significant othe
02:26:41 <augur> so its clear that theres SOME general trend = more christian = more aids
02:26:50 <augur> but i cant find a map of different brands of christianity
02:27:01 <oerjan> augur: goddammit christian != catholic
02:27:04 <augur> http://www.religiouslyremapped.info/map5/content.html
02:27:13 <augur> oerjan: catholic subset christian
02:27:28 <ehird> catholicism is highly non-canonical christianity
02:27:35 <GregorR> augur: That doesn't mean you can take any christian population and say "I assume 25% of these people are catholic"
02:27:38 <ehird> basically like ancient mormonism imo
02:27:42 <augur> aids is more common in protestant countries in africa!
02:27:50 <GregorR> ehird: What an utterly weird thing to say.
02:27:50 <augur> gregor: uh, i didnt
02:28:00 <Pthingg> catholicism is non-canonical christianity
02:28:07 <Pthingg> will have to justify this statement
02:28:18 <ehird> catholicism is wildly different from all different sects of christianity
02:28:28 <GregorR> Well, if we're "just stating", then Christianity is totally just non-canon Zoroastrianism.
02:28:29 <augur> infact, i explicitly stated that the map DIDNT have a breakdown of the branches.
02:28:33 <ehird> Pthingg: yes, it is
02:28:40 <augur> ehird: catholicism is very similar to the anglican church
02:28:51 <augur> and those two are the top two churches
02:28:57 <augur> having like 90% of christians
02:29:01 <ehird> i didn't say it was unpopular
02:29:09 <Pthingg> catholicism is *the* canonical form of christianity
02:29:16 <Pthingg> (one clue is: "canonical" is catholic jargon)
02:29:18 <GregorR> Pthingg: Nah, not that much, in the USA other forms of protestantism are substantially more common.
02:29:35 <Pthingg> meanwhile in the huge portion of the world that is not america
02:29:40 <GregorR> Pthingg: (And the USA has a giant percentage of the christians in the world ... and all the annoying noisy ones)
02:29:49 <ehird> Pthingg is acting very defensive of catholicism
02:29:52 <Pthingg> yes yes, god bless america, usa #1 usa #1
02:29:57 <ehird> i'm tempted to infer things :p
02:30:12 <Pthingg> you are saying stupid things
02:30:18 <Pthingg> and somebody saying stupid things on the internet
02:30:30 <ehird> Pthingg: you need to
02:30:37 <augur> pthingg reads xkcd, obviously
02:30:53 <GregorR> No, Pthingg speaks in free verse poetry.
02:31:10 <Pthingg> the carriage return is punctuation on irc :|
02:31:12 <augur> i prefer beat poetry
02:31:26 <GregorR> Pthingg: It is if you're a flooding dick ;P
02:31:36 <ehird> Pthingg: you'll get on AnMaster's ignore list! surely you don't want that
02:31:43 <Pthingg> man, flooding is saying the same thing again and again
02:31:44 <augur> pethingg, ive noticed that you and i break sentences up in very similar fashions
02:31:53 <Pthingg> uh probably i mean people copy a lot of how i type
02:31:58 <Pthingg> it makes me feel special~~
02:32:05 <augur> namely, at the edges of sentences and sentence complements
02:32:16 <ehird> you are not unique in doing that
02:32:32 <ehird> i meant you didn't invent it.
02:32:46 <augur> GregorR: mary and joseph!
02:32:54 <GregorR> augur: Dangit, he was supposed to say it :P
02:34:23 <GregorR> Borodín's Nocturne from String Quartet #2
02:40:32 -!- calamari has joined.
02:42:06 <AnMaster> and actually, the idea of ehird having a split personality and arguing with himself is funny....
02:44:22 <augur> AnMaster: hasnt he done that before
02:44:56 <GregorR> I wonder how long new Billy Mays com/infomercials will be coming out. I mean, certainly the amount of time from "recording" to "on the air" is not insubstantial, and it's too late and expensive to restart from scratch ... I wonder if, psychologically, being advertised something from beyond the grave would make you not want to buy it very much ...
02:45:37 <pikhq> I also wonder how long “Pitchmen” is going to last.
02:45:56 <GregorR> Oh, it is sooooo canceled. I'm sure they'll finish out the season, but without him it's not a show.
02:46:10 <augur> i would buy something just because a zombie told me to.
02:48:48 <nooga> that whole SCM in xcode
02:49:03 <nooga> really really really suxx
02:50:32 <GregorR> Source Code Management I assume
02:50:47 <nooga> svn support is highly shitty
02:51:04 <GregorR> ON A SHITOCITY SCALE OF ONE TO SHITTY, I WOULD RATE IT HIGHLY SHITTY
02:51:20 <nooga> conflicts all the time, idiotic gui for comparison
02:52:21 <oerjan> > foldl' (liftM3 id [const,flip const]) "B" "rains."
02:52:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
02:52:47 <nooga> if i have "logical" folders in project that reflect "physical" structure of folders on my disk and then i create a file in one of the folders, it's only "logically" there and lands in project's main folder
02:54:35 <nooga> + objective-c has #import instead of #include
02:55:04 <nooga> and that whole #import searches for files automatically in frameworks and your project
02:55:23 <nooga> so try to have 2 files with same name
03:05:50 <oerjan> > foldl'(flip$ap.sequence[const id,const])"B""rains."
03:05:52 <lambdabot> "Braaiiiinnnnnnnnssssssssssssssss................................"
03:08:35 <oerjan> > ap (sequence[const id,const] 'r') "B"
03:08:45 <oerjan> > ap (sequence[const id,const] 'a') "Br"
03:09:46 <oerjan> that thing in the last parenthesis is the same as [const id 'a', const 'a'], or [id, const 'a']
03:09:50 <GregorR> ehird: spoony == oerjan. Just FYI.
03:10:05 <GregorR> (Using the extensive evidence I just presented :P )
03:10:42 <HackEgo> * DJ Spoony is the stage name of Johnathan Joseph (born 25 June 1970, Hackney, London ) who is a British DJ, and former BBC Radio 1 presenter. \ [13]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoony \ * A foolish, simple, or silly person; A foolishly amorous person; Enamored in a silly or sentimental way; Feebly sentimental; gushy
03:11:41 <oerjan> nooga: ap [id, const 'a'] "Br" is the same as [f x | f <- [id, const 'a'], x <- "Br"]
03:11:50 <oerjan> > [f x | f <- [id, const 'a'], x <- "Br"]
03:12:50 <oerjan> nooga: what that does is to concatenate two lists the length of "Br", one where the characters are kept and the other where they are all replaced by 'a'
03:13:23 <pikhq> GregorR: Final Fantasy translation reference. ;)
03:13:55 <pikhq> Final Fantasy... 6? had a crappy translation, and someone was accused of being a spoony bard.
03:14:09 <oerjan> so then we make that a point-free function of the 'a' and the "Br" part. We want to reverse the arguments so that it fits into the foldl'
03:14:58 <oerjan> @pl \br a -> ap (sequence [const id, const] a) br
03:14:58 <lambdabot> flip (ap . sequence [const id, const])
03:15:58 <oerjan> and then we use foldl' to apply that to an initial "B" list and each of the rest of the characters in turn
03:18:47 <oerjan> ap is a monadic function, used here with the list monad to abbreviate a list comprehension
03:19:43 <oerjan> sequence is also monadic, although confusingly it is used with a completely different monad, the (e ->) monad. this is a nice trick to apply a list of functions all to the same argument.
03:21:15 <oerjan> anything in particular still unclear?
03:23:20 <oerjan> > sequence [f,g,h,i] x :: Expr
03:23:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t -> a'
03:23:45 <oerjan> > sequence [f,g,h] x :: Expr
03:23:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
03:24:01 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a
03:24:29 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => [a]
03:24:57 <oerjan> i'm not sure why Expr doesn't show what i want there
03:25:18 <nooga> these haskell hacks look pro
03:25:25 <oerjan> > sequence [f,g,h] x :: [Expr]
03:26:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (Success).
03:27:50 <oerjan> making haskell hacks is a bit addictive
03:28:40 <nooga> i've read that funny tutorial with pictures and my code is also funny
03:32:12 <nooga> i need something more synthetic
03:34:02 * oerjan doesn't know much about tutorials
03:35:06 <nooga> how did you learn haskell?
03:35:46 <oerjan> i don't quite recall what tutorial i looked at
03:36:11 <oerjan> but after that i read the language definition
03:36:32 <oerjan> that was around 2001-2002
03:38:01 <oerjan> then i didn't do much until around 2006 or 2007 when i joined #haskell for a while
03:38:30 <oerjan> and picked up a lot of small but maybe not that useful tricks :)
03:43:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:43:28 * oerjan wonders what that blue flag is the reddit alien is holding
03:44:05 <zzo38> Where it says the topic must contain "esoteric programming languages" does it also mean it has to be in all lowercase?
03:44:35 <oerjan> well if EgoBot still enforces it, then probably
03:45:54 -!- zzo38 has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "Esoteric Programming Languages" AT ALL TIMES.
03:46:08 -!- zzo38 has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES.
03:46:43 <oerjan> i am not sure if GregorR gave up on it
03:47:12 <GregorR> I gave up on it because you're all a bunch of dicks.
03:47:22 <GregorR> But no, it wasn't case sensitive.
03:47:59 <zzo38> I just wanted to test it to see if it complained when changing the case of the letters
03:50:27 <zzo38> Does anyone here have knowledge of Mathematica and Mathematica Player, I have a few questions about it
03:51:08 <oerjan> coincidentally i just tried wolfram alpha in the other window, but no
03:51:36 <oerjan> does anyone know how to find a flag from its _look_, rather than the other way around?
03:51:45 <zzo38> I'm not talking about Wolfram|Alpha.
03:52:11 <GregorR> zzo38: We're not talking about what you're talking about, so neeah. If anybody knew Mathematica, they'd respond.
03:52:19 <GregorR> oerjan: Idonno, poke aimlessly around Wikipedia?
03:52:40 <zzo38> My questions about Mathematica Player are: Can ToExpression still be used? How large can a inputted number be? Can numbers be pasted in?
03:53:28 <zzo38> But I can tell things I have discovered about Wolfram|Alpha, which I have found in TDWTF and some of my own experimenting with it.
03:53:32 <oerjan> hm cool there is a flags by design page
03:54:01 <zzo38> Type in "how much beer can i drink" and it gives an imaginary number answer in units of inches to the sixth power.
03:54:08 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Honduras
03:54:29 <oerjan> ooh it was the Hon *dammit* GregorR
03:54:39 <zzo38> And "the answer to life, the universe, and everything" is acceptable in Wolfram|Alpha and it can be used as a constant in other calculations, too.
03:55:04 <zzo38> Also, "what is your name" works, but it can't do anything with "what is my name"
03:55:15 <oerjan> but yeah wikipedia's flag lists are pretty awesome
03:56:16 <zzo38> And "the answer to life, the universe, and everything" can also be used in Google Calculator.
04:01:20 -!- nooga_ has joined.
04:02:41 <zzo38> Mathematica Player is of no use if the Three Fundamental Questions of Mathematica Player cannot be answered.
04:03:42 <oerjan> this somehow probably has parallels to life in general. or at least people's attitude to it.
04:04:20 <pikhq> GregorR: Following the coup d'etat?
04:04:40 <oerjan> iran is _so_ last month
04:05:00 <oerjan> ok iran is so _soon last month_
04:05:47 <pikhq> The President of Honduras was moved to Costa Rica in his sleep by Honduran soldiers.
04:05:50 <GregorR> I'm looking over some of the past US flags ... I never realized that there were wildly asymmetrical official flags :P
04:06:25 <zzo38> Yesterday I have calculated the value of a tensor diagram using Linear Al. Linear Al can't do tensor diagrams, so I draw the diagram on paper first and then manually converted it to a series of tensor multiplications and matrix multiplications.
04:06:43 <GregorR> (I mean assymetry in the stars, obviously the whole flag has never been symmetrical)
04:06:45 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Shishou_riot Why was this not in the news?
04:06:57 <zzo38> The diagram I have calculated, is I have made a diagram representing a latch made using NAND-gates, and I got the expected answer.
04:07:18 <oerjan> > product<$>replicateM 7[-1,1]
04:07:20 <lambdabot> [-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1...
04:08:04 <nooga_> zzo38: seems interesting
04:08:18 <zzo38> O, that's thuemorse sequence!
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04:08:33 <oerjan> yeah i translated your tensor idea to haskell
04:09:16 <zzo38> I have gotten the answer [0,0,0,0;0,0,1,1;0,1,0,1;1,0,0,0] which is the correct value of a latch of NAND-gates, isn't it?
04:09:42 <oerjan> what is a latch of NAND-gates?
04:09:48 <zzo38> O, so that's how you do tensor products in haskell.
04:10:06 <oerjan> the list monad is nice for that, yes
04:11:04 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SR_Flip-flop_Diagram.svg
04:12:10 <zzo38> In order to compute the value of a tensor diagram, you do tensor multiplying horizontally and you do matrix multiplying vertically.
04:13:09 <oerjan> hm right, but a flip-flop is a time varying circuit...
04:13:15 * Warrigal ponders how to make "cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end" evaluate to [1,2,3]
04:14:03 <zzo38> Yes it is time varying and I knew that, but I wanted to find out what would happen if I made a tensor diagram for it and computed its value anyways, so I did.
04:15:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t]'
04:15:12 <zzo38> The diagram required the U-shaped hoops (also called metric tensor), which represent flattened identity matrices. Straight vertical lines represent actual identity matrices.
04:15:26 <Warrigal> Yes, but that's not "cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end".
04:15:47 <Warrigal> Lessee, cons must have the same type as cons 1 cons, and... eh, fucitol.
04:15:47 <oerjan> must have end = [] i think
04:15:49 <pikhq> That line doesn't mean what you think it means.
04:15:57 <Warrigal> It means precisely what I think it means.
04:16:04 <oerjan> because logically that's what you get by dropping all the cons'es
04:16:55 * Warrigal ponders continuation passing style.
04:16:55 <pikhq> In order for that to work, cons would have to be of type [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t], I think.
04:17:07 <oerjan> some polymorphism is needed there
04:17:29 <pikhq> What you want is cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 end)), or somewhat different syntax in Haskell. :P
04:17:29 <Warrigal> How about "begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end"...
04:17:56 <oerjan> yes, that should be easier
04:19:40 <zzo38> Using the similar way I have done, you could compute the matrix for any digital circuit (even time-varying circuits) but the result won't be time-varying, but other than that the result will be the correct matrix.
04:20:27 <oerjan> > let begin f = f []; cons l n f = f (n:l); end l = reverse l in begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end
04:21:40 <zzo38> O, it works. I don't know haskell much but I can somewhat understand how it works.
04:23:08 <nooga_> am I mistaken that i can write a parser in haskell using guards that the actual program would look almost like BNF?
04:23:10 <Warrigal> @type let chase begin cons end = begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end in chase
04:23:12 <oerjan> > let begin f = f id; cons cmb n f = f (cmb.(n:)); end cmb = cmb [] in begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end
04:23:12 <lambdabot> forall t t1 t2 t3 t4 t5. (Num t3, Num t2, Num t1) => (t -> t1 -> t -> t2 -> t -> t3 -> t4 -> t5) -> t -> t4 -> t5
04:23:25 <Warrigal> Yeah, I figured it would give something kind of stupid.
04:23:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure if this is more efficient than reverse though
04:23:48 <Warrigal> @type let chase begin cons end = [begin end, begin cons 1 end, begin cons 1 cons 2 end] in chase
04:23:49 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t2 -> t1 -> t
04:23:50 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `begin' is applied to too many arguments
04:23:50 <lambdabot> In the expression: begin cons 1 end
04:26:20 <oerjan> nooga_: somewhat, but look at Parsec
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04:34:06 <lambdabot> forall b a. Maybe (b -> Either a b)
04:37:50 <zzo38> Using the matrix of the SR latch of NAND gates I have computed, an input of |11> results in *both* output values |01> and |10> while other inputs give a single output state, being the correct state that the circuit would actually produce.
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04:54:30 <nooga_> how to access tuples' elements?
04:55:39 <oerjan> > let (a,b,c) = (1,2,3) in a+b+c
04:55:56 <oerjan> for 2-tuples only there is also fst and snd functions
04:57:54 <oerjan> there are other functions for doing various higher level things, mostly for 2-tuples
04:58:43 <oerjan> > unzip . zip [1..] $ "abcdefg"
05:01:35 <oerjan> > (pred *** succ) (5,7)
05:01:54 <oerjan> zip turns two lists into a list of tuples
05:02:34 <nooga_> (<+>) :: Vec -> Vec -> Vec
05:02:35 <nooga_> (x,y,z) <+> (x1,y1,z1) = (x+x1,y+y1,z+z1)
05:02:59 <oerjan> oh and there isn't much to work on arbitrary length tuples
05:03:09 <oerjan> something can be done with type classes
05:03:38 <oerjan> there are probably some libraries on hackage
05:04:26 <oerjan> nooga_: a 2-tuple and a 3-tuple are never the same type, so any function that is to work with both needs type class overloading
05:04:36 <nooga_> i want to write whole path tracer from scratch in order to LEARN something
05:04:48 <oerjan> and there aren't any in the basic libraries
05:05:31 <oerjan> generally, if you have elements of the same type inside and need varying length, then use a list
05:06:55 <oerjan> even if you don't need varying length a list can be better since you have map and stuff
05:11:20 <oerjan> hm that might be, at least for short tuples
05:11:31 <oerjan> well a 3-tuple should work fine
05:12:04 <nooga_> (x,y,z) <+> (x1,y1,z1) = (x+x1,y+y1,z+z1) < is there a way to write it simpler?
05:12:19 <oerjan> with a data type you can make the fields strict (non-lazy) which helps performance
05:15:00 <oerjan> but then you only need a few basic functions for 3-vectors anyhow
05:15:02 <nooga_> you know, path tracer is something that has enormous amounts of iterations in final form
05:15:19 <oerjan> i think that's usually called "ray" tracer
05:15:22 <nooga_> it would be cool to make it parallel
05:15:37 <nooga_> path tracer is a specific form of ray tracer
05:16:06 <nooga_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_tracing
05:18:58 <oerjan> i understand recent ghc has better support for parallel array or list processing which i know essentially nothing about. parallel list comprehensions, i think it's called.
05:21:07 <nooga_> [ trace ray | ray <- (map shootRay imageMatrix) ] ;D
05:21:39 <oerjan> um that's an ordinary list comprehension
05:21:50 <oerjan> there's some special syntax for the new ones
05:22:14 <oerjan> but other than that, probably a good start :)
05:22:39 <Asztal> parallel ones are like [ (x,y) | x <- xs | y <- ys ]
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05:23:55 <Asztal> I thought that was what you meant
05:23:55 <oerjan> er they may be called parallel
05:24:12 <nooga_> i'll need to use something like 2d array of tuples (800x600 for example)
05:24:16 <oerjan> no, i am talking about something they added for automatic parallel computation
05:24:26 <Asztal> oh, I haven't heard of that
05:25:23 <nooga_> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell#A_simple_example
05:26:15 <nooga_> oh no, that's an array
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10:35:45 <AnMaster> great... the harddrive with swap on it died when I was sleeping. Resulting in a kernel panic
10:35:57 <AnMaster> funny thing: smartctl said it was just fine. Everything else disagrees.
10:40:01 <AnMaster> luckily I have complete backups of anything important on it.
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13:21:56 * AnMaster had a hard drive failure during the night
13:22:03 <ais523> how much was backed up?
13:22:13 <AnMaster> but the drive had the swap partition
13:22:30 <AnMaster> well all of it, except the last day or so
13:22:39 <ais523> most people are upset at losing all their data when their hard drive fails
13:22:45 <ais523> whereas you're just upset at having to reboot...
13:22:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and having to take out the drive
13:23:14 <AnMaster> especially since you need to open both sides to take out a drive
13:23:23 <AnMaster> to reach all the needed screws holding the drive
13:23:41 <AnMaster> this case is really badly designed IMO
13:23:56 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and at having to buy a new drive...
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13:24:03 <AnMaster> I'm quite irritated by that too
13:24:47 <nooga> http://i39.tinypic.com/8ycl07.png
13:31:19 <AnMaster> nooga, what the hell is it supposed to be...
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13:38:40 <AnMaster> I think I found a hidden 1 April joke by google this year: look http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=google.se
13:39:43 <AnMaster> but sqrt(-garfield) was funnier today
13:40:03 <ais523> AnMaster: it would be great if they were running a Chrome-based server, somehow
13:40:23 <AnMaster> ais523, looking at the date it must have been some 1 April joke that no one noticed...
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13:43:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, they didn't tell me if they did!
13:43:48 <oerjan> in fact, i believe fighting fire with fire is a well-known tactic
13:44:23 <oerjan> i seem to vaguely recall it being used in one of the little house on the prairie books...
13:46:03 <oerjan> basically i think they burned a ring around their house before the big prairie fire reached them
13:50:32 <ais523> oil fires are often put out using explosives
13:50:48 <ais523> the explosion takes away much of the oxygen in the area and blasts the rest away from the oil
13:51:18 <AnMaster> <oerjan> i seem to vaguely recall it being used in one of the little house on the prairie books... <--- oooh, I have a vague memory of them too...
13:54:38 <AnMaster> ais523, about that failed drive... even after it failed, querying it with SMART reported that all was well
13:55:55 <AnMaster> (strange considering that when ordered to do a short self test all it did was spin up, spin down, spin up, spin down, .... for about half a minute, then reporting "self test aborted by host")
13:56:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I never had a drive fail in this strange way before btw...
13:56:45 <AnMaster> somehow the partition table *was* readable. But nothing else was.
13:57:04 <fizzie> There's also the term, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn
13:57:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, to prevent buffer underrun? ;P
14:00:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: that sqrt(-garfield) seems like it would be inspired by the "Ryan North's Jokes Explained^n" posts
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14:02:42 <oerjan> fizzie: especially the Back Burning section
14:03:20 <fizzie> Yes; that was actually my wikipedia search, but it got rediddled to that page.
14:15:51 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=define:rediddled
14:16:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm pretty sure `google is broken ^
14:17:25 <HackEgo> Definition of broken in the Online Dictionary. Meaning of broken. Pronunciation of broken. Translations of broken. broken synonyms, broken antonyms. \ www.thefreedictionary.com/broken - [18]Cached - [19]Similar
14:17:39 <HackEgo> Definition of work (noun) form plural: works labor; task; profession; occupation ; vocation; effort. Definition of work. Define work ... \ www.english-test.net/toeic/vocabulary/.../toeic-definitions.php - [18]Cached - [19]Similar
14:18:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, define: doesn't work in `google...
14:20:35 <fizzie> Oh, just "redirected".
14:20:39 <HackEgo> * plant: buildings for carrying on industrial labor; "they built a large plant to manufacture automobiles" \ * whole shebang: everything available; usually preceded by `the'; "we saw the whole shebang"; "a hotdog with the works"; "we took on the whole caboodle"; "for $10 you get the full treatment" \ * performance
14:22:36 <nooga> Mac Pro, i want one
14:37:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
14:37:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Define what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q=define:'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 3 'Definitions of' | \ head -n 4 | tail -n 3
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14:47:31 <ais523> everyone: the new people here are because zid mentioned Befunge over in #nethack
14:47:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
14:47:58 <ais523> fungot's written in Befunge, for instance
14:48:12 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
14:48:15 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
14:48:53 <GregorR> ais523: All one of those new people? :P
14:49:01 <zid> Can the bots here do brainfuck?
14:49:12 <AnMaster> <nooga> Mac Pro, i want one <-- you could get something more powerful for much less from anyone but Apple.
14:49:26 <nooga> AnMaster: but mac pro is sexy
14:49:29 <zid> well i'm busy playing nethack atm
14:49:32 <zid> I'll talk to you guys in a bit
14:49:42 <EgoBot> show: !show <interp>. Shows the definition of a user interpreter.
14:49:46 <GregorR> nooga: I have a mac pro, and I often have sex with it. Oh, would a good computer.
14:49:49 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
14:49:54 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
14:49:55 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for sadbf!
14:49:55 <AnMaster> I'm actually working on efunge atm
14:49:58 <ais523> that's what i was looking for
14:50:07 <AnMaster> the core stuff for ATHR is mostly done.
14:50:09 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
14:50:11 <ais523> loads of esolangs, plus a few real langs
14:50:23 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I noticed
14:50:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
14:50:26 <AnMaster> as in, the thread supervisor finally works
14:50:28 <ais523> just didn't think of a reason to respond
14:50:34 <AnMaster> ais523, the newline was not intentional
14:50:38 <zid> I wrote a befunge interp, it was just a jump table and bin2o
14:50:43 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
14:50:52 <GregorR> !aol ais523: This is hyperuseful!
14:50:52 <EgoBot> AI5523: TH1S I5 HYPERU5EFUL!!!!!!!!!!1
14:50:53 <zid> 93 I assume
14:51:03 <ais523> 98 is considerably harder to implement
14:51:13 <zid> I don't remember the difference anymore
14:51:15 <nooga> zid: :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1 this is brainfuck in sadol
14:51:28 <ais523> zid: 98 has more commands, and lets you use programs of unlimited size
14:51:34 <ais523> nooga: I can't read SADOL
14:51:35 <GregorR> THIS! IS! BRAINFUCK! (in Sadol)
14:51:46 <zid> It didn't support unlimited size but it supported 4.3G
14:52:17 <ais523> !cintercal DO READ OUT #12345 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:52:34 <ais523> !cintercal DO READ OUT #1234 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:52:51 <ais523> stupid blank lines before numeric output
14:52:58 <ais523> !clcintercal DO READ OUT #1234 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:52:58 <nooga> !bf_textgen ehird is an idiot
14:53:27 <nooga> !bf_txtgen ehird is an idiot
14:53:29 <EgoBot> 145 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>+++.+++.+.>++.>>++.<++++.<<.>+.>.>---.<<-----.>.<<.>>>+++.<<<.>+.+++++.>----------------------. [167]
14:53:45 <nooga> !sadbf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>+++.+++.+.>++.>>++.<++++.<<.>+.>.>---.<<-----.>.<<.>>>+++.<<<.>+.+++++.>----------------------.
14:54:29 <nooga> !redneck you've said that greg
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14:55:22 <GregorR> It's like XOR, but instead of being eXclusive, it's Greg.
14:55:52 <zid> I should implement somethng in brainfuck using xor linked lists
14:56:04 <zid> just for the fact of having to implement both linked lists and xor
14:56:16 <nooga> zid: wo'd write a compiler first
14:57:01 <nooga> GregorR: AFAIR you've developed something ... eeeee .... c2bf ?
14:57:19 <GregorR> Look at ais523's gcc-bf instead.
14:57:42 <ais523> it's unfinished, although finished to the point that you can consider it a very buggy finished product as opposed to an unfinished one
14:57:45 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5[minBound,maxBound]
14:58:07 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> a) -> [a] -> a
14:59:09 <oerjan> > foldl1'(/=)<$>replicateM 5[False ..]
14:59:11 <lambdabot> [False,True,True,False,True,False,False,True,True,False,False,True,False,Tr...
14:59:56 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5"01"
14:59:57 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Bits.Bits GHC.Types.Char)
15:00:27 <nooga> ais523: sadol is stupidly simple
15:00:29 <zid> nooga: If I wrote a brainfuck compiler i'd probably end up adding IO ports to it
15:00:40 <nooga> forward polish notation, that's it
15:00:52 <ais523> nooga: I guessed it was some sort of Polish, although I prefer reverse
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15:00:56 <nooga> zid: no no no, compiler targetting brainfuck
15:00:56 <zid> or rip out the core of my gameboy emulator and plug in brainfuck instead ;D
15:01:01 <zid> nooga: bwahah
15:01:04 <ais523> just because I'm an incurable Underload-and-derivatvies fan
15:01:07 <zid> nooga: nicer idea
15:02:20 <nooga> CP stands for concatenative programming, just like child porn
15:03:31 <GregorR> "child porn" also stands for "concatenative programming"???
15:04:59 <nooga> it seems that it does
15:05:06 <ais523> I prefer just writing out the name in full
15:05:28 <ais523> and although I like concatenative programming in general, there's something about Underload in particular that just clicks with me
15:05:44 <nooga> http://www.h3rald.com/articles/concatenative-programming-in-ruby
15:05:52 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5[0,1]
15:06:19 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5[0,1::Int]
15:06:21 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1]
15:06:34 <nooga> oerjan: your PhD theisis is about short haskell hacks?
15:06:36 <ais523> why does lambdabot need type signatures?
15:06:49 <oerjan> ais523: ambiguous overloading
15:07:24 <oerjan> and no extend default flags set, probably
15:08:32 <oerjan> nooga: strangely not, i didn't know haskell at the time. i think i may have used a little perl while experimenting.
15:08:58 <nooga> where we can read your PhD thesis?
15:15:18 <nooga> you probably even remember the walrus scam
15:22:34 <oerjan> it's a shame many of these haskell hacks require a handful of import lines outside lambdabot
15:27:16 <oerjan> > filterM[const False,const True]"abcdef" -- another oldie
15:27:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> m GHC.Bool.Bool'
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15:27:27 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
15:28:08 <oerjan> > filterM[const[False],const[True]]"abcdef"
15:28:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> m GHC.Bool.Bool'
15:29:25 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:38:27 <oerjan> > filterM(const[False ..])"abcdef"
15:38:28 <lambdabot> ["","f","e","ef","d","df","de","def","c","cf","ce","cef","cd","cdf","cde","...
15:38:41 <oerjan> > filterM(const[False ..])"abcd"
15:38:43 <lambdabot> ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ad","ac","acd","ab","abd","abc","...
15:39:06 * oerjan thinks lambdabot is cutting rather short these days
15:40:32 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:42:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
15:43:20 <Slereah> !swedish ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ad","ac","acd","ab","abd","abc","...
15:43:21 <EgoBot> ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ed","ec","ecd","eb","ebd","ebc","... Bork Bork Bork!
15:51:16 -!- nooga has joined.
16:05:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:07:38 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:07:46 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
16:08:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, if I made a patch to add erlang as a language to it, would you consider it?
16:08:20 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
16:08:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, what erlang version do you have installed/available for installation on there?
16:08:54 <GregorR-L> None, I'll install one once I have a reason to :P
16:08:59 <GregorR-L> Whatever version is in Debian Testing.
16:09:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, where do I find out what debian testing has?
16:10:48 <AnMaster> uuuh it is split in several packages?
16:11:29 <GregorR-L> That's a very Debian thing to do :P
16:11:43 <nooga> i should prepare my personal webpage
16:12:23 <GregorR-L> nooga: http://codu.org/colormatch/ // USE THIS DO IT DO IT YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO
16:12:24 <ais523> AnMaster: most likely info common to all versions, plus common version
16:12:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm not against it in general. For example gentoo splits the huge kdebase, kdeextra and such in individual packages for each program, like kwrite, konqueror, ...
16:12:58 <AnMaster> but really erlang isn't large enough to motivate splitting it into 22 packages
16:13:05 <AnMaster> if I read http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/erlang-nox correctly
16:13:11 <AnMaster> oh and I guess the x11 one is even larger
16:13:16 <zid> someone siad gentoo
16:13:24 <AnMaster> the tk bindings and the wx bindings
16:13:41 <GregorR-L> zid: You have "gentoo" highlighted? :P
16:13:56 <AnMaster> ais523, all of those are parts that do change with erlang version
16:13:58 <ais523> AnMaster: Debian allow you to save disk space insanely if you want to
16:14:10 <ais523> they changed all the copies of the GPL into symlinks to a common location to save space, for instance
16:14:20 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang uses EPL though
16:14:44 <nooga> GregorR-L: i know how to pick matching colors
16:14:45 <AnMaster> (iirc the original tarball comes with one copy, that tarball includes all those packages....)
16:14:45 <ais523> $ apt-cache search nethack | grep ^nethack | wc -l
16:14:59 <ais523> see what I mean? You wouldn't have thought they could have split NetHack into 7 packages...
16:15:20 <AnMaster> ais523, um... I can think of a few splits nox/gtk/qt/x11?
16:15:22 <ais523> the other 6 are 6 different interfaces
16:15:40 <GregorR-L> nooga: Well A) I don't so stop showing off :P, B) This picks a /variety/ of matching colors! :P
16:15:43 <ais523> 5 different interfaces, plus the Emacs mode for playing nethack-lisp
16:15:51 <zid> portage has 2, nethack and noegnud-nethack
16:16:03 <ais523> AnMaster: the GTK one has been retired because it used Athena widgets
16:16:05 <nooga> GregorR-L: i know how to pick my nose
16:16:13 <ais523> and the Qt one has been broken for ages
16:16:19 <AnMaster> ais523, athena... gtk... How are they related?
16:16:25 <AnMaster> aren't they different toolkits?
16:16:28 <ais523> why do you think it was retired?
16:16:39 <AnMaster> ais523, they could have *renamed* it instead?
16:17:04 <ais523> but there's already an X version
16:17:14 <ais523> just, GTK with Athena widgets
16:18:16 <AnMaster> but why split out erlang-mnesia from erlang-base for example... There are no extra deps for mnesia. And mnesia itself isn't that large...
16:18:17 <AnMaster> $ du -sh /usr/lib/erlang/lib/mnesia-4.4.10/
16:18:18 <AnMaster> 1,8M /usr/lib/erlang/lib/mnesia-4.4.10/
16:18:24 <AnMaster> $ du -sh /usr/lib/erlang/lib/kernel-2.13.2/
16:18:24 <AnMaster> 2,4M /usr/lib/erlang/lib/kernel-2.13.2/
16:18:37 <ais523> AnMaster: so people can choose not to install it
16:18:40 <AnMaster> oh and that includes the installed source...
16:18:59 <AnMaster> ais523, not installing mnesia is pretty much guaranteed to break quite a few things...
16:19:17 <ais523> yes, but not everything
16:19:27 <ais523> things might want to use the other bits of Erlang, but not mnesia
16:19:33 <ais523> Debian deps only install the bits you actually depend on
16:20:04 <GregorR-L> There's probably an "erlang" pseudopackage that pulls in all of them.
16:20:06 <AnMaster> anyway, you save less than 1.8 MB.. (less because I have the source installed too, which would be reasonable to have in a separate package)
16:20:25 <zid> of course under portage, the source IS the package
16:20:45 <GregorR-L> zid: Gentoo is just LFS for pussies.
16:20:53 <zid> exactly why it's so good
16:21:01 <pikhq> zid: No. The source is not the package.
16:21:09 <pikhq> Source+ebuild is the package.
16:21:17 <ais523> the package contains source + build instructions
16:21:20 <pikhq> (or the binary package you can have emerge make)
16:21:24 <zid> ebuild is a good couple of hundered characters :>
16:21:24 <AnMaster> zid, the reason you don't end up with tons of split variations like x11/nox in portage is the useflags
16:21:40 <zid> AnMaster: useflags <3
16:22:05 <AnMaster> okay... they split out the docs as a separate meta-package
16:22:29 <AnMaster> also the deps doesn't make sense
16:22:45 <AnMaster> they skip typer in the nox11, yet that is a completely command line app
16:23:45 <zid> what's typer?
16:24:06 <AnMaster> tries (quite successfully) to infer erlang type specifications from the source code
16:24:29 <GregorR-L> And is linked against libXaw for no reason whatsoever :P
16:24:30 <zid> Hmm, not in portage, at least under 'typer'
16:24:56 <AnMaster> okay... the debian typer package depends on dialyzer (correct, it is a part of dialyzer in fact...), and the dialyzer package depends on the Tk bindings... Fun thing is that dialyzer doesn't actually need those Tk bindings... it can use them optionally
16:25:02 <AnMaster> zid, it is part of the erlang package
16:25:25 <AnMaster> and IMO the gentoo way is much saner here.
16:25:51 <zid> erlang package is 52.7MB, nice :P
16:26:22 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, /usr/lib64/erlang/bin/typer is linked against libdl, libm and libc here
16:26:36 <AnMaster> zid, that is the source code download yes
16:26:52 <AnMaster> zid, depending on useflags (especially the doc one) it can be a lot smaller installed
16:27:14 * pikhq has doc enabled globally.
16:27:18 <zid> doc isn't set by default
16:27:25 * pikhq <3 documentation. ;)
16:27:39 <zid> ssl -doc -emacs -hipe -java -kpoll -obdc -sctp -smp -tk
16:27:44 <AnMaster> I have the full thing installed except the java bindings and the odbc stuff (USE="doc emacs hipe kpoll sctp smp ssl tk wxwindows -java -odbc" for erlang)
16:28:07 <zid> I don't have a wxwindows flag
16:28:29 <AnMaster> (docs and sources installed, I develop a lot in erlang, that is why)
16:28:43 <zid> what version has a wxwindows flag?
16:28:47 <zid> none of mine do
16:29:05 <zid> 12.2.5-r1 is latest in portage
16:29:11 <ais523> how many esolangs does gentoo have in portage, btw?
16:29:16 <AnMaster> 13.2.1 is the latest in portage
16:29:19 <AnMaster> and that is from the main tree
16:29:26 <zid> Oh, you're right
16:29:31 <pikhq> I know there's CIntercal...
16:29:32 <zid> the list was upside down
16:29:37 <zid> it goes 12.2, 13.2, ..
16:29:44 <ais523> pikhq: officially? I thought that was just AnMaster porting it as a side project
16:29:57 <AnMaster> ais523, some dev accepted it... was as surprised as you are
16:30:19 <AnMaster> I filed a bug with the ebuild in as half-joke/half-serious
16:30:24 <pikhq> ais523: It's in portage.
16:30:40 <AnMaster> YET THE EBUILD FOR THAT pygopherd WASN'T ACCEPTED
16:30:42 <pikhq> I don't think there's any other esolangs in there.
16:31:25 <ais523> was pygopherd a joke too?
16:31:29 <pikhq> Gentoo mostly accepts things which work correctly and have an active ebuild maintainer...
16:31:39 <AnMaster> ah I know why the erlang dir is so large
16:31:42 <ais523> I think gopher's mostly only used by zz038 nowadays
16:31:43 <AnMaster> it isn't actually erlang itself
16:32:21 <pikhq> ais523: There's a small amount of people using it.
16:32:46 <pikhq> IIRC, Gopher support in Firefox was removed from 3.0, upsetting the few Gopher users out there.
16:32:57 <pikhq> zzo38 is one of them, yes.
16:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523, pygopherd wasn't a joke... I didn't think it would be accepted... but I was serious still..
16:33:08 <zid> I bet all three of them were upset
16:33:22 <ais523> I'm upset it isn't there, even if I hardly ever use it
16:33:29 <ais523> I want to be able to see zzo38's pages, at least
16:33:40 <AnMaster> ais523, use that http->gopher proxy
16:33:42 <zid> I've never used gopher once, i'm likkle
16:33:59 <AnMaster> link: http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/
16:34:10 <pikhq> When I first used the Internet, Gopher and HTTP still kinda coexisted.
16:34:22 <pikhq> (Gopher wasn't to survive much longer, mind.)
16:34:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, pretty sure gopher is still in ff3, but not in ff3.5
16:35:12 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:35:34 <zid> AOL was already around when I first started using the interwebs
16:37:21 <Deewiant> FF 3.5 seems to handle Gopher fine, and I recall 3.0 did as well.
16:37:37 <zid> gimmie a gopher uri
16:37:40 <zid> I wanna see
16:37:55 <zid> my terminal doesn't even let me click that :p
16:38:03 <pikhq> zid: AOL is ancient.
16:38:11 <zid> seems to work in 3.5
16:38:46 <AnMaster> for erlang in egobot I think somehow using escript for a wrapper would be best... erl is more advanced of course, but a bit cumbersome to use for short-running programs.
16:38:51 <pikhq> AOL goes back to 1989.
16:39:10 <zid> that doesn't sound right
16:39:32 <pikhq> Perhaps you're thinking of AOL for DOS, which is from '91?
16:39:47 <pikhq> Which is to say, *still older than WWW*?
16:39:57 * zid browses xkcd in gopher
16:40:19 <zid> pikhq: I was refering more to it ruining the old internets by introducing the web to morons
16:40:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I love how debian messed up erlang... libsctp is an optional dependency that makes sense to have optional. Yet on debian it isn't optional
16:41:08 <pikhq> zid: Ah, the Eternal September and the like.
16:41:10 <ais523> that gopher link works fine in 3.0.11
16:41:11 <zid> AnMaster: it was linked from the frontpage of that gopher uri someone gave me
16:41:41 <zid> pikhq: exactly!
16:42:13 <pikhq> AOL was slow on that.
16:42:24 <ais523> weird, floodgap posted the tail of their server log as one of the pages
16:42:47 <ais523> gopher CGI is silly enough, and posting your own server logs?
16:43:18 <AnMaster> ais523, gopher cgi is common iirc
16:43:29 <AnMaster> as in, pretty sure pygopherd supports it too
16:43:32 <ais523> works the same way as http
16:43:55 <zid> best page on the intertubes is http://zid.yggdrasil.sk/cgi-bin/maze
16:44:42 <ais523> does that use NetHack's Gehennom code?
16:44:47 <zid> no, I wrote it
16:44:51 <zid> to look like gehennom
16:45:02 <zid> I couldn't understand nethack's source it was.. awful
16:45:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:46:20 <zzo38> My gopher site runs using GOPHSERV (a gopher server I wrote myself). Most stuff is standard, but to play the hangman game on my gopher site the only client that works is Vonkeror (or you can write your own, it isn't that hard).
16:47:12 <AnMaster> I can't find any file listing on http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/erlang-base
16:47:14 <zid> is there some command I can use to get you to appear in whatever channel I want?
16:47:49 <pikhq> zid: Nethack is old and crufty.
16:47:56 <zzo38> Grumpy is a HTTP+Gopher server, GOPHSERV is Gopher only.
16:47:58 <zid> it's pre ansi :(
16:47:59 <pikhq> zid: Its build system predates Autotools.
16:48:29 <AnMaster> GregorR-L or GregorR: The !c one automatically adds some header/footer right? How does that work when you give it an url?
16:48:40 <AnMaster> I think erlang will need something similar
16:48:46 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
16:48:50 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It still automatically adds the header and footer. If that doesn't compile, it tries using it as a full file.
16:48:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: It adds a footer, tries to compile it. If it errors out, it just compiles the full thing.
16:49:00 <zid> hrmph, it's hot so I have a fan on, and my ashtray keeps setting on fire now
16:49:03 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: See interps/gcccomp/gcccomp (something like that)
16:49:24 <pikhq> zid: Where are you at?
16:49:37 <pikhq> And how hot is it?
16:49:48 <pikhq> (I need to know if I can just say "man up". :P)
16:50:06 <zid> the comparison never works
16:50:12 <zid> these are houses built to keep warmth
16:50:27 <zid> not that hot with the fan on
16:50:29 <zid> last night was worse
16:50:33 <zid> 22C at 100% humidity
16:50:56 <pikhq> The US has a lot of houses built to handle extreme cold and extreme heat.
16:51:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, Can you run it specially? As in, ./compiled-file won't work, nor will erl compiled-file, rather something like erl -run compiled_file_without_extension somefunction_in_said_file
16:51:09 <pikhq> Some parts of the country range from -10°F to 100°F... ;)
16:51:11 <AnMaster> assuming the compiled file is in the current directory
16:51:22 <AnMaster> if it isn't you need -pa path/where/it/is
16:51:24 <zid> what's that in real temperatures
16:51:28 <pikhq> But gawsh, 22°C? I envy you.
16:51:40 <zid> don't forget the 100% humidity
16:51:43 <zid> there was fog in my room
16:51:52 <AnMaster> actually, making an escript-wrapper is probably saner
16:51:58 <pikhq> It's at 30°C right now, and that's lower than usual.
16:52:00 <zzo38> Which gopher server software do you think is better?
16:52:14 <pikhq> And Missouri has humidity from 70 to 100% generally.
16:52:25 <zid> do you have AC?
16:52:36 <AnMaster> zzo38, I used pygopherd, quite decent. I heard Bucktooth was good too.
16:52:43 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Again I say, see interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
16:52:44 <ais523> hi zzo38; strangely, we were discussing Gopher servers before you arrived
16:52:54 <zid> I think he was summoned
16:53:00 <zzo38> I know that. I read the logs.
16:53:01 <pikhq> zid: I'd have to be mad not to. 40°C is not all that uncommon.
16:53:09 <zid> pikhq: then you can't compare it :P
16:53:36 <zzo38> Have you heard of Grumpy or GOPHSERV, those are two less common gopher servers
16:53:40 <pikhq> Sure I can. Last summer I went without AC.
16:53:51 <pikhq> (I was in Boston, not Missouri, but it has a similar climate)
16:53:53 <zid> in what kind of house, and what kind of temps are you used to
16:54:06 <zid> you can come here for the winter and have no heating if you lke
16:54:19 <pikhq> House designed for hard winters.
16:54:31 <zid> what strange weather you have
16:55:02 <pikhq> And I'm used to 0% humidity, 90°F being the *peak* temperature, averages from 70°F to 80°F in the summer.
16:55:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, question about ulimit -u used there... What is the normal limit and how does this interact with threads?
16:55:23 <pikhq> (Colorado. Ah, 0% humidity, how I miss you so.)
16:55:28 <EgoBot> core file size (blocks, -c) 0 data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited scheduling priority (-e) 0 file size (blocks, -f) 10240 pending signals (-i) 16382 max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 64 max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 1024 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 8 POSIX message queues (bytes, -q) 819200 real-time priority
16:55:43 <GregorR-L> <EgoBot> size (kbytes, -s) 8192 cpu time (seconds, -t) 30 max user processes (-u) 1024 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) 131072 file locks (-x) unlimited
16:55:50 <EgoBot> max user processes (-u) 1024
16:56:04 <zid> !sh cat /etc/passwd
16:56:04 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
16:56:11 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
16:56:15 <AnMaster> zid, it's in some jail sort of thingy iirc
16:56:29 <zid> !sh echo meow > test.txt
16:56:30 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.18404: line 1: test.txt: Permission denied
16:56:54 <GregorR-L> zid: If you want to write files, try HackEgo.
16:57:01 <zzo38> GOPHSERV comes with three programs: gophserv, imgindex, txtbindb. gophserv reads a gopher request from stdin and sends the result to stdout. imgindex creates index files of directories, using a data file you specify which gives it instructions for how to do so. txtbindb converts text databases into binary databases.
16:57:03 <GregorR-L> `run echo I am the most hackable bot evars
16:57:04 <HackEgo> I am the most hackable bot evars
16:57:12 <zid> `run cat /etc/passwd
16:57:40 <GregorR-L> It's still jailed, it just allows you to write (some) files.
16:57:52 <HackEgo> max user processes (-u) 128
16:58:14 <HackEgo> max user processes (-u) 128
16:58:15 <zid> `run uname -a
16:58:15 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
16:58:22 <Deewiant> `run ulimit -u unlimited; ulimit -a | grep -e -u
16:58:23 <HackEgo> max user processes (-u) 128
16:58:31 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, started erlang to check... 6 threads started on a single-core system. One additional per CPU by default after that iirc.
16:59:28 <zid> can I run gcc on it and things?
16:59:34 <zzo38> `run echo '!sh pwd'
16:59:34 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
16:59:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, right, if debian provides a build with no smp support at all (as opposed to "supported, but not enabled right now"), you get 2 threads by default it seems.
17:00:04 <pikhq> zid: Sure you can.
17:00:13 <pikhq> !c printf("See?\n");
17:00:29 <ais523> why isn't /etc/passwd visible?
17:00:37 <HackEgo> gcc (Debian 4.3.3-10) 4.3.3 \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \
17:00:40 <AnMaster> ais523, <AnMaster> zid, it's in some jail sort of thingy iirc
17:00:40 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Doesn't matter, you have plenty of processes.
17:00:51 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, yes, quite a few inside erlang :P
17:01:03 <ais523> I mean, why deny that exact file? /etc/passwd is designed to be world-readable
17:01:04 <AnMaster> (virtual ones, erlang does it's own scheduling...)
17:01:05 -!- ineiros_ has joined.
17:01:17 <HackEgo> cat (GNU coreutils) 7.4 \ Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Torbjorn Granlund and Richard M. Stallman.
17:01:21 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: So I don't anticipate issues.
17:01:33 <GregorR-L> ais523: You think it's /cat/ that's limited??? lawl
17:01:45 <ais523> I just wanted to see its silly version string
17:01:53 <ais523> limiting cat would not solve the problem at all
17:02:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:02:43 <HackEgo> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
17:03:12 <HackEgo> BASH=/bin/bash \ BASH_ARGC=() \ BASH_ARGV=() \ BASH_LINENO=() \ BASH_SOURCE=() \ BASH_VERSINFO=([0]="3" [1]="2" [2]="48" [3]="1" [4]="release" [5]="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu") \ BASH_VERSION='3.2.48(1)-release' \ DIRSTACK=() \ EUID=1126489
17:03:25 <HackEgo> /lib/libc-2.9.so: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped \ /lib/libc.so.6: symbolic link to `libc-2.9.so' \ /lib/libcfont.so.0: symbolic link to `libcfont.so.0.0.0' \ /lib/libcfont.so.0.0.0: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object,
17:03:27 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
17:03:54 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Because ehird is a bitch. Also, since you can write files, I added a paste command.
17:04:15 <HackEgo> GNU C Library (EGLIBC) stable release version 2.9, by Roland McGrath et al. \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. \ There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A \ PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \ Compiled by GNU CC version 4.3.3. \ Compiled
17:04:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22262
17:04:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, you want to force me to start a browser? :(
17:04:55 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Surely you have a browser in your emacs :P
17:05:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29473
17:05:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is the time limit
17:06:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, where does fetched files end up?
17:06:27 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdjbQ
17:06:29 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 16:06:29 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdjbQ [1952144/1952144] -> "vMXdjbQ" [1]
17:06:48 <GregorR-L> You might want to put that in bin.
17:07:10 <AnMaster> ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, statically linked, stripped
17:07:29 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Your mv command didn't work. Needed to be in run.
17:07:41 <GregorR-L> That command was mv '"vMXdjbQ" busybox'
17:07:53 <HackEgo> busybox: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
17:07:59 <GregorR-L> When you don't use run, everything else is /one/ argument.
17:08:00 <HackEgo> busybox: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
17:08:07 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 1952144 Jun 29 16:08 busybox
17:08:34 <GregorR-L> I have no idea why that isn't working *shrugs*
17:08:56 <GregorR-L> I believe it can't output because it's not doing it through the proper channels.
17:09:10 <pikhq> GregorR-L: What, stdio?
17:09:13 <GregorR-L> Things not linked against glibc don't work because they're in a completely empty environment with no files.
17:09:30 <GregorR-L> (By which I mean, no files and no file descriptors)
17:09:32 <pikhq> ... You're doing crazy prelink stuff.
17:09:34 <AnMaster> `run /lib/libc-2.9.so /usr/bin/env -i ./busybox
17:09:35 <HackEgo> GNU C Library (EGLIBC) stable release version 2.9, by Roland McGrath et al. \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. \ There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A \ PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \ Compiled by GNU CC version 4.3.3. \ Compiled
17:10:03 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I believe you're looking for /lib/ld-linux.so
17:10:15 <HackEgo> /lib/ld-linux.so: ERROR: cannot open `/lib/ld-linux.so' (No such file or directory)
17:10:22 <HackEgo> /lib/ld-2.9.so: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, stripped \ /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2: symbolic link to `ld-2.9.so'
17:10:36 <AnMaster> `run /lib/ld-2.9.so /usr/bin/env -i ./busybox
17:10:57 <AnMaster> `run /lib/ld-2.9.so /usr/bin/env
17:11:10 <HackEgo> PLASH_FAKE_GID=5000 \ SHELL=/bin/bash \ TERM=screen \ IRC_SOCK=/tmp/multibot.HackEgo \ IRC_NICK=AnMaster \ PLASH_CAPS=conn_maker;fs_op \ PLASH_FAKE_EUID=5000 \ USER=hackbot \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
17:11:28 <AnMaster> `run /usr/bin/env -i /usr/bin/env
17:11:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, does it only use the ld stuff or also some ptrace stuff?
17:12:15 <GregorR-L> It only uses a hacked glibc. No ptrace.
17:12:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, so the libc in /lib is the hacked one?
17:12:52 <AnMaster> then we are down to doing something with syscalls directly I guess
17:12:53 <GregorR-L> It's not actually in /lib of course :P
17:13:10 <AnMaster> does hackego has any asm thingy?
17:13:11 <GregorR-L> Right, the problem with that is that it's actually running in a nearly-empty chroot with no open file descriptors :P
17:13:18 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Well, it has gcc *shrugs*
17:13:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, I just hope to break into the chroot without phash basically
17:13:48 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
17:13:57 <GregorR-L> Feel free to try, just please don't actually break anything if you succeed :P
17:14:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, I saw that it disallowed the static binary there... but will it disallow syscalls where the instruction sequence for them are embedded directly into the binary in question
17:14:46 <AnMaster> rather than going through libc
17:15:20 <AnMaster> well it could use ptrace I guess
17:16:08 <pikhq> I think the tricky bit is the lack of file descriptors more than anything else.
17:16:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, it clearly disallowed the static busybox from running
17:16:43 <AnMaster> as well as anything when environment was empty
17:24:15 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
17:25:03 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
17:25:14 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id : AuthenticAMD \ cpu family: 16 \ model: 2 \ model name: Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 2347 HE \ stepping: 3 \ cpu MHz: 1909.786 \ cache size : 512 KB \ physical id: 0 \ siblings: 1 \ core id: 0 \ cpu cores : 1 \ apicid: 0
17:30:22 <GregorR-L> Ahhhh computer science: Where the phrase "First you need to kill all the children" is not only acceptable, but natural and obvious.
17:30:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, killing them for what purpose
17:30:57 <Deewiant> So they don't live unnecessarily
17:31:04 <GregorR-L> Well, you want to kill the parent process, and otherwise you have orphans in the process tree.
17:32:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:33:07 <zzo38> `run b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a';echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:33:07 <HackEgo> b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a';echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:33:20 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
17:33:53 <GregorR-L> If you want a shell quine, make sure the output from HackEgo starts with !sh and the output from EgoBot starts with `run :P
17:34:20 <GregorR-L> `run echo '!sh echo Lawl, forgot to prevent this'
17:34:20 <HackEgo> !sh echo Lawl, forgot to prevent this
17:34:21 <EgoBot> Lawl, forgot to prevent this
17:34:36 <ais523> generally speaking, when doing botloops, I use thutubot as part of them so as to be able to end them easily
17:34:58 <ais523> !sh echo `run echo Does it work the other way too?
17:34:58 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.22111: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'
17:35:05 <ais523> !sh echo '`run echo Does it work the other way too?'
17:35:06 <EgoBot> `run echo Does it work the other way too?
17:35:06 <HackEgo> Does it work the other way too?
17:35:36 <pikhq> !sh echo ^bf ++++++++++.
17:35:49 <fungot> pikhq: state your quesiton
17:35:59 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:36:06 <GregorR-L> fungot will have to fix fungotself.
17:36:06 <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
17:36:06 <HackEgo> bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22325
17:36:22 <GregorR-L> Wow, that was the most awesome phrase ever.
17:36:40 <GregorR-L> `addquote <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
17:36:41 <fungot> GregorR-L: some brainfuck implementations use 8 bits per pixel there?) are impressively fast for what they like.
17:36:41 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
17:36:42 <fungot> HackEgo: i wrote text with fnord pressed enter and the wiki uploads?
17:36:46 <ais523> `run echo '^bf ,[.,]!Does fungot ignore this?'
17:36:47 <HackEgo> ^bf ,[.,]!Does fungot ignore this?
17:36:47 <fungot> ais523: but still, presenting that face to the world of alcohol? why not just ( filter-unwanted " foobar"
17:36:48 <fungot> Does fungot ignore this?
17:37:30 <ais523> `run echo '^bf ,[.,]!`run echo test'
17:37:42 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > foo
17:37:55 <HackEgo> bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22627
17:38:05 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > foo; ls foo
17:38:33 <zid> `run echo $@;
17:38:37 <HackEgo> bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22848
17:38:38 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > tmpdir.22627/foo; ls tmpdir.22627
17:38:50 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > tmpdir.*/foo; ls tmpdir.*
17:39:02 <ehird> 02:09 GregorR: ehird: spoony == oerjan. Just FYI.
17:39:03 <GregorR-L> tmpdir.* is just mapped to /tmp btw
17:39:07 <ehird> Therefore, oerjan is gay. QED.
17:39:22 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:39:29 <zzo38> `run X=\!sh Y=\`run b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a'; echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:39:30 <HackEgo> !sh X=\`run Y=\!sh b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a';echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:39:43 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > $(mktemp); ls /tmp/tmp.*
17:40:04 <ehird> 03:06 pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Shishou_riot Why was this not in the news?
17:40:07 <ehird> why do you rely on the news?
17:40:08 <zzo38> That is what I was showing you I am glad you fixed it
17:40:09 <Deewiant> `run a=$(mktemp); echo foo > $a; cat $a
17:40:27 <AnMaster> I got a working manual system call hm
17:40:32 <ehird> 03:17 pikhq: What you want is cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 end)), or somewhat different syntax in Haskell. :P
17:41:19 <GregorR-L> zzo38: Why did you part? Trying to flee the scene of the crime? :P
17:41:59 <HackEgo> GNU Wget 1.11.4 \ \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later \ <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Originally written by Hrvoje Niksic
17:42:09 <zzo38> No, I parted so that I could experiment with HackEgo privately without the channel messages on the screen, so that I could see more clearly what I was doing.
17:42:44 <zzo38> And then when the command worked, I rejoined to try it to see if it was fixed or not
17:42:59 <ehird> 12:38 AnMaster: I think I found a hidden 1 April joke by google this year: look http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=google.se
17:43:02 <ehird> except it's not funny
17:43:09 <ehird> also http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=google.com
17:43:13 <ehird> maybe swedes just suck at jokes
17:43:22 <ehird> 13:22 nooga: Mac Pro, i want one
17:43:22 <GregorR-L> ehird: I know some very funny swedes :P
17:43:31 <ehird> i'm being pinged, cool
17:43:35 <Deewiant> `run a=$(mktemp); wget -q tar.us.to/x -O $a; cat $a
17:43:37 <AnMaster> ehird, as you can see the april ones have gone off the end
17:43:47 <AnMaster> that is why you can't see if the .com one had that joke too
17:43:52 <ehird> 13:49 AnMaster: <nooga> Mac Pro, i want one <-- you could get something more powerful for much less from anyone but Apple. ← uh huh, and where is this system more powerful than 2 x Nehalem Xeons and 16GB of RAM? cheaper, yes. more powerful? unlikely
17:44:01 <ehird> 13:49 GregorR: nooga: I have a mac pro, and I often have sex with it. Oh, would a good computer.
17:44:04 <ehird> wood: a good computer
17:44:05 <zzo38> The !sh and `run quine was what I was originally thinking of at first back before when I wrote the first command at 08:59:34
17:44:35 <ehird> 14:05 ais523: and although I like concatenative programming in general, there's something about Underload in particular that just clicks with me
17:44:37 <ehird> because you wrote it :p
17:45:28 <ais523> ehird: I generally write things /because/ I like the idea
17:46:04 <ehird> 15:33 zid: I bet all three of them were upset
17:46:05 <ehird> 15:33 AnMaster: zid, quite a few more.
17:46:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:46:46 <ehird> 15:47 zid: is there some command I can use to get you to appear in whatever channel I want?
17:47:04 <ais523> actually, /invite works against some clients
17:47:08 <ais523> but not against otheres
17:47:49 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:48:03 <zzo38> There is a command to make PocketMonsterIRC appear in whatever channel you want.
17:48:35 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdjdg
17:48:36 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 16:48:36 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdjdg [378/378] -> "vMXdjdg" [1]
17:48:48 <GregorR-L> If anybody uses that command to bring PocketMonsterIRC here, they will suffer the wrath of many angry esoers :P
17:48:52 <ehird> 16:04 AnMaster: GregorR-L, just ignore ehird
17:48:52 <ehird> 16:04 AnMaster: I prefer the DCC one
17:48:54 <ehird> 16:04 AnMaster: much better
17:48:56 <ehird> contrarian fun with anmaster
17:49:00 <pikhq> /invite #cannibalism zzo38
17:49:11 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -std=c99 asm-test.c
17:49:16 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
17:49:32 <zzo38> Underload is very purely concatenative programming.
17:49:37 <AnMaster> I can make a direct syscall GregorR ^
17:49:41 <AnMaster> just a write one for testing here
17:49:45 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I never claimed that you couldn't.
17:49:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, lets see if we can run that busybox binary this way!
17:49:55 <ehird> 17:39 GregorR-L: ehird: Isn't spoony ... a woman?
17:49:58 <GregorR-L> It doesn't block direct syscalls, it just makes them useless.
17:50:02 <ehird> Spoony is oerjan and oerjan is male.
17:50:14 <GregorR-L> ehird: But spoony isn't actually oerjan :P
17:50:19 <ehird> Therefore, from the set {spoony,Dylan} we can deduce gayness(oerjan) = 100%
17:50:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, not if we can break out by running a static binary
17:51:07 <zzo38> Well, it won't work now anyways, because PocketMonsterIRC is not connected
17:52:01 <ehird> The idea that you could singlehandedly break plash is amusing.
17:52:04 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Like I said (sooo many times), it doesn't block direct syscalls, it just makes them useless by placing you in an empty chroot.
17:52:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes, but this is still fun!
17:52:36 <GregorR-L> You haven't really broken out of anything though, you're just in a situation it already anticipated :P
17:53:11 <ais523> what if someone breaks the chroot?
17:53:31 <zzo38> I should invent 2D-Underload (I already have some ideas)
17:53:35 <GregorR-L> Yes, that's a concern. But chroots are really not /that/ broken in general.
17:53:38 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen Shove?
17:53:39 -!- nomaddave0987 has joined.
17:53:46 <ais523> it isn't really Underload
17:53:56 <GregorR-L> Dave wanders into #esoteric, looking to hunt wild game...
17:53:56 <pikhq> If someone breaks out of a chroot, run screaming.
17:53:57 <ais523> but Underload translates better into it than most other languages
17:54:17 <pikhq> Dave slowed slightly as his ears.
17:54:20 <ehird> nomaddave0987: Haskell Nomads!
17:54:21 <ais523> pikhq: there are all sorts of ways to break a chroot, but they mostly need root powers
17:54:24 <GregorR-L> He aims his bow at a wild ehird. Tragically, ehird never saw the nomadic hunter-gatherer.
17:54:34 <pikhq> ais523: ... Ways of breaking out without root.
17:55:02 <ais523> can you run plash inside plash?
17:55:11 <GregorR-L> WhyTF do people think I'd give root :P
17:55:13 <pikhq> It's happened before, but none of the ways of doing so work on anything newer than, oh, 2.4.10.
17:55:34 <ais523> certainly, there's a well known way to break out of an outer chroot if you have an inner chroot inside it
17:55:38 <ais523> somehow, I can't remember how it works
17:55:59 <pikhq> If you've got root, breaking out of a chroot is trivial.
17:56:06 <zzo38> I have idea 2D-Underload, it isn't really underload either but I have some ideas how it can work, the stack can contain 2D-strings now, is one idea
17:56:19 <zid> if you've got root, everything is trivial :P
17:56:19 <ais523> pikhq: yes, specify the device by number, mknod it and mount it
17:56:23 <pikhq> (unlike a BSD jail)
17:56:40 <pikhq> ais523: Most Linux systems these days have devfs.
17:56:57 <pikhq> Curses, it's udev.
17:56:59 <zzo38> There is a module for thing similar BSD jail in Linux too
17:57:08 <pikhq> devfs was a 2.4 thing.
17:57:44 <zid> udev is made of unicorn farts
17:57:56 <pikhq> Start a udev daemon in your chroot.
17:57:56 <GregorR-L> Mounting a filesystem isn't /really/ breaking out of a chroot :P
17:58:09 <ais523> GregorR-L: you can now access everything outside it, though
17:58:13 <ais523> if that isn't breaking, what is?
17:58:25 <GregorR-L> Actually disabling the chroot restrictions on your process?
17:58:31 <zid> i'd just remount root
17:58:36 <pikhq> Oh, hey. chroots don't stack.
17:59:15 <ais523> ah, ok, the trick is that if you have an inner chroot, something in the outer chroot can pass a handle to a directory between the chroots into the inner one
17:59:19 <zid> just mount root to /blah and chroot /blah :P
17:59:22 <ais523> then the one inside can move outside the outer one using cd ..
18:00:17 <GregorR-L> ais523: Surely this can't be an extant bug?
18:00:20 <ais523> strangely, the webpage I'm reading about this seems to assume that it can only be done using C or Perl
18:00:26 <ais523> GregorR-L: I think it's deliberate
18:00:38 <pikhq> Better still. Chroot without changing into the dir you're chrooting into.
18:00:39 <ais523> the idea is that you can take the parent directory of any directory but root
18:00:52 <pikhq> pwd is below the process's root.
18:01:09 <GregorR-L> ais523: The inner one, passed a directory handle from the outer one, should perhaps be able to chroot up into other dirs in the outer one, but not OUT of the outer one ...
18:01:19 <pikhq> So, you just do cd(".."); a lot and then chroot(".")
18:01:37 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Except that chroot's semantics are specified so that chroots don't stack.
18:01:37 <ais523> GregorR-L: you'd need to know the chroot stack
18:01:43 <GregorR-L> Anyway, it's kind of irrelevant because you need chroot power to take advantage of it :P
18:01:44 <ais523> and chroots don't stack
18:02:12 <ais523> interestingly, FreeBSD blocked this attack by making it illegal to pass directory handles into a chroot (if you try, the chroot system call fails)
18:02:20 <ais523> which is a really weird place of the trick to block it
18:02:36 <pikhq> And we were discussing how it's trivial to break out of a chroot if you have root.
18:02:38 <GregorR-L> Well, plash passes /no/ handles in, so g'luck :P
18:03:09 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I thought we were discussing breaking out of HackEgo's chroot.
18:03:55 <ais523> the idea would be to somehow create a second chroot inside plash
18:04:01 <ais523> unfortunately, that generally needs root powers
18:04:08 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Which is likely impossible without some major kernel or plash bug.
18:04:32 <ais523> what about just attempting to set your UID to root?
18:04:46 <ehird> !c setuid(0); chroot("butt");
18:04:46 <pikhq> ais523: ... And you need root to do that.
18:05:00 <ais523> Linux remembers what UID a process started with
18:05:06 <ais523> and you can always setuid to that
18:05:09 <pikhq> If you don't need root, that's a bug.
18:05:11 <GregorR-L> ais523: That would be the world's stupidest bug.
18:05:23 <ais523> IMO, that's a bug, because it means there's no way to permanently drop root powers
18:05:30 <ais523> but I suppose you can get round it by forking children
18:05:31 <pikhq> ais523: This is why you setuid(0) then fork().
18:05:52 <GregorR-L> Except there /is/ a way to permanently drop root powers: root (and only root) can set both real and effective UID.
18:06:05 <pikhq> Oh, right. So root can.
18:07:31 <ais523> GregorR-L: no, that's what I'm saying, there are three UIDs, real, effective, original
18:07:44 <ais523> at least, that's what the man page said (or was it info?)
18:07:48 <ais523> when I read it, I thought it was on crack
18:07:57 <GregorR-L> Uhhh, no. I'm fairly certain that's not correct, or at least the original UID is kept only for informative purposes, and gives no real power.
18:08:05 <fizzie> "If the effective UID of the caller [of setuid] is root, the real UID and saved set-user-ID are also set."
18:08:16 <fizzie> There are three, though.
18:08:18 <ais523> oh, only in a setuid process
18:08:22 <ais523> that's /slightly/ less insane
18:08:25 <ais523> but still, only slightly
18:08:37 <ais523> as it still means setuid processes have no way to drop privileges
18:08:53 <GregorR-L> That's just not correct. There is absolutely no way that's correct.
18:08:58 <GregorR-L> That's a misunderstanding, I'm sure.
18:09:10 <pikhq> ehird: That's POSIX.
18:09:16 <fizzie> Huh? If the effective uid of the process calling setuid is 0, it will set all those three privileges and then it is impossible to regain root privileges.
18:09:18 <pikhq> OS X has the same.
18:09:25 <pikhq> (and that's retarded)
18:09:29 <ais523> ok, but say I have a process that's setgid games
18:09:35 <ais523> it has no way to permanently drop that setgid
18:09:39 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, that's ridiculous
18:09:40 <GregorR-L> The setuid() function sets the real and effective user IDs and the saved set-user-ID of the current process to the specified value. The setuid() function is
18:09:40 <GregorR-L> permitted if the effective user ID is that of the super user, or if the specified user ID is the same as the effective user ID. If not, but the specified
18:09:40 <GregorR-L> user ID is the same as the real user ID, setuid() will set the effective user ID to the real user ID.
18:09:49 <ais523> which means, that it can't just open the files it needs and then drop privileges
18:09:57 <ehird> guys, let's lobby os makers to violate posix in this case!
18:10:19 <ais523> GregorR-L: ah, I missed that bit
18:10:25 <ais523> so you can change saved-suid as well
18:10:40 <GregorR-L> That bug would be too stupid to exist, I knew it couldn't be right :P
18:10:58 <ais523> and it's presumably seteuid that doesn't mess with saved-suid
18:11:25 <GregorR-L> But seteuid doesn't drop anything.
18:11:31 <GregorR-L> Well, not in any permanent sense, that is.
18:12:04 <ais523> seteuid(insert real UID here) would be a rather obvious way to permanently drop setuid powers
18:12:08 <ais523> such a pity that it doesn't work
18:12:58 <ais523> ooh, someone should tell the BSD people about the exploitable double-free bug in NetHack
18:13:12 <ehird> bsd is also hilarious, the whole "let"
18:13:12 <ais523> I'm just reading the BSD essay on game security
18:13:18 <ehird> "'s have one big team maintain EVERYTHING"
18:13:30 <fizzie> Actually "Under Linux, setgid() is implemented like the POSIX version with the _POSIX_SAVED_IDS feature. This allows a set-group-ID program that is not set-user-ID-root to drop all of its group privileges, do some un-privileged work, and then re-engage the original effective group ID in a secure manner." Based on that I'd say just saying setgid or setuid is not enough to permanently drop privileges when you're some non-root setuid/setgid-file process.
18:13:51 <ais523> they also said that games shouldn't have write power to their own executables, which makes sense
18:13:57 <ais523> and is another reason to make them setgid not setuid
18:14:15 <ehird> i think the whole "another user/group so people don't tamper with scores" is silly
18:14:24 <ehird> it doesn't really help anything
18:14:38 <ais523> well, I managed to corrupt the Minesweeper high score table once on a Windows box
18:14:45 <ais523> we accidentally wrote the wrong username next to a pretty good high score
18:14:51 <ais523> so attempted to fix it in the registry
18:14:52 <ehird> on a single-user machine, you can fuck them up anyway. on a multi-user machine, you can get the admin to fuck them up. there's no verification or anything.
18:14:59 <ais523> it seems it's checksummed and Minesweeper went mad
18:15:07 <ais523> and we had to revert the registry (the whole thing!) to a backup
18:15:15 <ehird> at least you backed up
18:15:20 <GregorR-L> How many times do you have to hear the expression "bit-shift" before it becomes "bitch-ift"?
18:15:21 <ehird> i _still_ don't back up
18:15:22 <ais523> Windows does automatically
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18:15:32 <ais523> except it reverts your program files directory at the same time
18:15:42 <ais523> user-friendliness, you see
18:15:42 <ehird> i'm very happily lucky with mechanical disks
18:15:43 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Bitſhift, you mean?
18:15:51 <ehird> ais523: you mean system restore?
18:16:09 <ais523> it does work to fix borked changes to Minesweeper high score tables
18:17:02 <ais523> <FreeBSD> This package does not yet support security hardening by giving each setgid game its own gid, but in some environments you may wish to do this.
18:17:33 <ais523> I'm reading the BSD advice file on game security that ended up in the Debian BSD-games package
18:17:45 <ais523> what's slightly more worrying is that I have previously met, in RL, the person who wrote it
18:17:56 <ehird> ais523: not BSD "generally"
18:18:02 <ehird> before all the derivatives, I assume
18:18:06 <ehird> ais523: who wrote it?
18:18:26 <ehird> nomaddave0987: no. ##linux
18:18:43 <ehird> AnMaster: adding "esoteric programming" to the topic sure has stopped 2-3 non-esolangers coming in lately huh
18:18:51 <ehird> statistically, we're doing worse!
18:19:14 <pikhq> Not as odd as people coming in for spiritual esotericism.
18:19:21 <ehird> magick. with a k!!!!!!
18:19:25 <ehird> the k means arkane
18:19:26 <nomaddave0987> ok..mm.. ho.. its because I follow your conversation and i try to understand what about talk about
18:19:32 <AnMaster> ehird, did any of them read the topic...
18:19:35 <ehird> nomaddave0987: esoteric programming languages
18:19:40 <ehird> AnMaster: if they don't, does it help anyway? nope
18:19:42 <GregorR-L> nomaddave0987: Admittedly we're sort of off topic :P
18:19:45 <AnMaster> and then nothing will help indeed
18:19:51 <pikhq> !bftxtgen Like this.
18:19:54 <nomaddave0987> yeah I read.. but my englisgh is my second languaje..
18:20:00 <ais523> pikhq: you missed an underscore
18:20:06 <ehird> did pikhq miss an underscore
18:20:10 <ehird> i think he meant bf_txtgen
18:20:10 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen Like this.
18:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, however I suspect we need to collect more data on this before giving a definite answer
18:20:12 <EgoBot> 128 +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----. [115]
18:20:24 <pikhq> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----.
18:20:26 <AnMaster> also what was the frequency during the same period one year ago?
18:20:38 <AnMaster> are there more in the summer for example
18:20:40 <pikhq> `echo ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----.
18:20:41 <HackEgo> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----.
18:20:51 <ehird> AnMaster: you just gotta accept the crazies and the confused. they're natural
18:21:09 <AnMaster> ehird, It was GregorR who added it originally to the topic
18:21:10 <ehird> also, ais523: did you read on proggit? they've made a solid-state quantum processor with two qubits
18:21:15 <ehird> kept them entangled for a microsecond
18:21:21 <ais523> although, that is progress
18:21:25 <ehird> AnMaster: you're the one who argued it with me :P
18:21:33 <nomaddave0987> why is called esoteric programming languajes? .. can you do some kind of magik.. with computers?
18:21:38 <ehird> ais523: it operates at less than 1 kelvin above 0
18:21:53 <ais523> nomaddave0987: no, because they're rather different from mainstream programming languages
18:21:53 <AnMaster> nomaddave0987, no, the same word has different meanings in different contexts.
18:21:56 <ehird> nomaddave0987: No, you can't do any magic full stop because there's no such thing. Esoteric programming languages are weird ones like Brainfuck.
18:22:20 <ais523> ehird: no magic? how am I going to get my halting oracle now?
18:22:44 <ehird> nomaddave0987: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
18:23:00 <ehird> ais523: prove that the Entscheidungsproblem is actually solvable
18:25:13 <ehird> ...for some definitions of philosophical and geometric
18:25:47 <ais523> geometric, I don't get, although I sort-of know what you mean by philosophical here
18:26:00 <pikhq> http://bill.wards.net/blosxom/humor/story/feynman.html You have three hours. You may use your notes and Feynman.
18:26:33 <GregorR-L> http://www.explosm.net/comics/1699/ // lawl
18:28:16 <nomaddave0987> i readed about the INTERCAL.. and basi has the same basic strcutures to make a sentece.. but is represented by symbols
18:28:57 <GregorR-L> Yeah, INTERCAL is one of the languages we sometimes talk about here.
18:29:10 <ehird> But mostly GregorR-L just makes innuendos.
18:29:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's what you said about your mom.
18:29:44 <ehird> *smoooooooooooooth*
18:30:57 <ehird> i wonder if Logic Studio still requires the obnoxious dongle they did in the windows days
18:37:31 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex.
18:45:41 -!- nomaddave0987 has left (?).
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18:51:36 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.25907
18:51:43 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdkYw
18:51:44 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 17:51:43 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdkYw [444/444] -> "vMXdkYw" [1]
18:52:21 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
18:52:49 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.26162
18:52:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, ok, now I am confused...
18:53:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, it must do something more than just replace libc
18:53:17 <HackEgo> asm-test: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
18:53:24 <HackEgo> #define _GNU_SOURCE \ #include <unistd.h> \ \ volatile char *en[] __asm__("en") = {NULL}; \ volatile char *ar[] __asm__("ar") = {NULL,NULL}; \ \ int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { \ar[0] = argv[1]; \// Syscall execve = 59 \// execve(argv[1],ar,en); \// syscall(59, ar[0], ar, en); \asm volatile
18:54:04 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
18:54:22 <AnMaster> ldd sets some env vars then runs ld-linux.so
18:54:47 <AnMaster> so ldd of course won't work GregorR ^
18:55:11 <ehird> "Intel's 32nm Clarkdale CPUs moved up to Q4, a full year ahead of AMD?"
18:55:42 <AnMaster> `run /usr/bin/nm -D /usr/bin/nm
18:55:43 <HackEgo> U _IO_putc \ w _Jv_RegisterClasses \ U __assert_fail \ 000000000060989c A __bss_start \ 00000000006098a0 B __environ \ U __errno_location \ w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main \ U __strdup \ U
18:55:45 <ehird> "Intel launching cheaper SSDs with up to 320GB capacity in two weeks?"
18:55:46 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/nm: /bin/ls: no symbols
18:55:49 <ehird> two birthdays in one!
18:56:15 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
18:56:23 <AnMaster> `run nm -D asm-test 2>&1 | wc -l
18:56:38 <HackEgo> asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.26975
18:56:48 <GregorR-L> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c 2>&1
18:56:57 <GregorR-L> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c 2>&1
18:57:18 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.27075
18:57:24 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
18:57:31 -!- Pthing has joined.
18:59:37 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdkZQ
18:59:38 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 17:59:38 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdkZQ [776/776] -> "vMXdkZQ" [1]
19:00:02 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.27242
19:00:16 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:00:51 <AnMaster> then the execve syscall failed hm
19:01:01 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
19:01:09 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -ggdb3 -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:01:13 <HackEgo> 00000000006006e0 d _DYNAMIC \ 0000000000600888 d _GLOBAL_OFFSET_TABLE_ \ 00000000004005f8 R _IO_stdin_used \ w _Jv_RegisterClasses \ 00000000006006c0 d __CTOR_END__ \ 00000000006006b8 d __CTOR_LIST__ \ 00000000006006d0 D __DTOR_END__ \ 00000000006006c8 d __DTOR_LIST__ \ 00000000004006b0 r __FRAME_END__
19:01:15 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.27515
19:01:16 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
19:01:37 <ehird> wow, the arial glyph to l is actually identical to that of I
19:02:43 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test.S -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:02:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3502
19:02:57 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test.S -S -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:03:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14348
19:03:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, see anything strange there?
19:04:45 <HackEgo> PLASH_FAKE_GID=5000 \ SHELL=/bin/bash \ TERM=screen \ IRC_SOCK=/tmp/multibot.HackEgo \ IRC_NICK=AnMaster \ PLASH_CAPS=conn_maker;fs_op \ PLASH_FAKE_EUID=5000 \ USER=hackbot \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
19:05:19 <ehird> wait, clarkdale is a consumer cpu
19:06:01 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:07:13 <ehird> "We just got all new Phenom II X2 550 3.1GHz systems and they beat the crap out of the old Intel Pentiums."
19:07:19 <ehird> AMD Phenom II: It's faster than Pentium.
19:10:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm... it is possible it actually ran but no output could be captured... not sure
19:10:20 <AnMaster> it seems plash does all sort of tricks to be able to handle exec*
19:10:25 <AnMaster> http://plash.beasts.org/wiki/ExecutableObjects
19:10:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's proof that AMD _can_ be faster than Intel!
19:11:15 <ais523> GregorR-L: stop it with that smiley, you're giving me flashbacks to Windows
19:11:30 <ehird> ais523: windows stole XP.
19:11:34 <GregorR-L> Windows XP was named after the faces of its users.
19:11:37 <ehird> i remember thinking it was a fucking dick move.
19:11:40 <ais523> ehird: yes, quite possibly
19:11:48 <ehird> ais523: the interwebs
19:11:55 <GregorR-L> ais523: He's referring to the smiley :P
19:12:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, what version of plash are you using
19:12:51 <HackEgo> pola-run: error: Unrecognised argument: --version
19:13:21 <GregorR-L> Idonno if that should work or not :P
19:13:25 <HackEgo> dpkg-query: failed to open package info file `/var/lib/dpkg/status' for reading: No such file or directory
19:15:42 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less \ lessecho \ lessfile
19:15:49 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/captoinfo \ /usr/bin/debconf-escape \ /usr/bin/infotocap \ /usr/bin/run-mailcap
19:15:58 <HackEgo> accessdb \ add-shell \ addgroup \ adduser \ arp \ arpd \ biosdecode \ chgpasswd \ chpasswd \ chroot \ cpgr \ cppw \ cron \ cytune \ defoma-reconfigure \ delgroup \ deluser \ dmidecode \ dpkg-divert \ dpkg-preconfigure \ dpkg-reconfigure \ dpkg-statoverride \ fdformat \ filefrag \ groupadd \ groupdel \ groupmod \ grpck \ grpconv
19:16:45 <HackEgo> attr \ auxv \ cgroup \ clear_refs \ cmdline \ coredump_filter \ cpuset \ cwd \ environ \ exe \ fd \ fdinfo \ io \ limits \ loginuid \ maps \ mem \ mountinfo \ mounts \ mountstats \ net \ oom_adj \ oom_score \ pagemap \ root \ sched \ sessionid \ smaps \ stat \ statm \ status \ task \ wchan
19:17:23 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 2 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 27 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9
19:17:29 <AnMaster> `run ls -l /proc/self/fd | paste
19:17:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20342
19:17:54 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 0 Jun 29 18:17 /proc/self/cwd -> /tmp/hackenv.28535
19:18:42 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:21:10 -!- Pthing has joined.
19:21:38 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdkaA
19:21:39 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 18:21:39 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdkaA [740/740] -> "vMXdkaA" [1]
19:21:44 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.S \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.28613 \ vMXdkaA
19:22:15 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c 2>&1
19:23:02 <AnMaster> `run ./asm-test ${PWD}/busybox
19:23:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, this means that the exec call never returns, even when the relevant file doesn't exist.
19:26:09 <AnMaster> `run (sleep 1; echo ab) & echo c
19:26:21 <AnMaster> `run (sleep 1; ./asm-test xxx) & echo c
19:27:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, conclusion: once asm-test was executed, (even with &) nothing after it was executed in fact!
19:27:34 <HackEgo> PLASH_FAKE_GID=5000 \ SHELL=/bin/bash \ TERM=screen \ IRC_SOCK=/tmp/multibot.HackEgo \ IRC_NICK=AnMaster \ PLASH_CAPS=conn_maker;fs_op \ PLASH_FAKE_EUID=5000 \ USER=hackbot \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
19:27:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26027
19:28:46 <HackEgo> X11R6 \ bin \ games \ include \ lib \ lib64 \ local \ sbin \ share \ src
19:28:58 <HackEgo> gc-uid-locks \ lib \ run-as-anonymous
19:29:02 <HackEgo> libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libc.so.6 \ libcrypt.so.1 \ libdl.so.2 \ libm.so.6 \ libmemusage.so \ libnsl.so.1 \ libnss_compat.so.2 \ libnss_dns.so.2 \ libnss_files.so.2 \ libnss_hesiod.so.2 \ libnss_nis.so.2 \ libnss_nisplus.so.2 \ libpcprofile.so \ libpthread.so.0 \ libresolv.so.2 \ librt.so.1
19:29:21 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/pager \ /usr/bin/paperconf \ /usr/bin/partx \ /usr/bin/passwd \ /usr/bin/paste \ /usr/bin/pathchk \ /usr/bin/pcretest \ /usr/bin/pdb \ /usr/bin/pdb2.5 \ /usr/bin/pdf2dsc \ /usr/bin/pdf2ps \ /usr/bin/pdffonts \ /usr/bin/pdfimages \ /usr/bin/pdfinfo \ /usr/bin/pdfopt \ /usr/bin/pdftoabw \ /usr/bin/pdftohtml
19:29:32 <HackEgo> pola-run is /usr/bin/pola-run
19:29:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/plash-pkg-choose \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-deb-inst \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-fetch \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-install \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-launch \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-unpack \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-update-avail
19:30:38 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:30:47 <EgoBot> 83 ++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>---.>++.+++++++...<++...>....<........>..>. [710]
19:30:49 <HackEgo> attr \ auxv \ cgroup \ clear_refs \ cmdline \ coredump_filter \ cpuset \ cwd \ environ \ exe \ fd \ fdinfo \ io \ limits \ loginuid \ maps \ mem \ mountinfo \ mounts \ mountstats \ net \ oom_adj \ oom_score \ pagemap \ root \ sched \ sessionid \ smaps \ stat \ statm \ status \ task \ wchan
19:31:01 <EgoBot> 84 +++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.-----.+++++++.....>+....<..>..<......>.>-. [511]
19:31:43 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>---.>++.+++++++...<++...>....<........>..>.
19:31:43 <fungot> WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
19:32:36 <GregorR-L> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++>>+++++++>+<<<<-]>++.+++++++.>>-...............................
19:32:36 <EgoBot> RYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
19:32:36 <ais523> the bit at the end is rather interesting
19:32:50 <ais523> !bf_txtgen 11111111111111111111111122222222222222222222222222333333333333333333333333
19:32:53 <EgoBot> 184 ++++++++++++[>++++>++++>++++>++++<<<<-]>+....>+.>+.....<...>..>+......<...+..<+..>...<...............>..<..+........>>++...<<.<++...>.........-----------------------------------------. [724]
19:33:15 <GregorR-L> That end is severely weird ... oh wait, newline???
19:33:20 <ais523> there's a neat deficiency of bf_txtgen for you
19:33:27 <ais523> not just the newline, the rest of it is really weird too
19:33:49 <GregorR-L> Well, yeah, I think it's pretty well understood that it doesn't do runs well.
19:35:34 <ehird> 19:32 GregorR-L: What a strange thing to say :P
19:35:41 <ehird> WRY{lots,} is a meme.
19:36:03 <ehird> yes, it's from some weird game.
19:36:17 <ehird> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/ZA_WARUDO
19:36:34 <ais523> GregorR-L: even using the system it uses, something like >++++>++++>++++>+ in the main loop would have been more expected
19:38:04 <GregorR-L> But ... "wry" is actually a word ...
19:38:38 <Deewiant> "wry" is a braindead translation most likely by an American
19:39:05 <ehird> Deewiant: "Translation"?
19:39:12 <ehird> It's... not a fucking word, as far as I can tell.
19:39:20 <Deewiant> ehird: In fact, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure was not originally in English!
19:51:07 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:51:46 <AnMaster> `run ls /var/lib/plash-chroot-jail
19:51:57 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
19:52:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: Do you think he'll get the hint that it's effectively unbreakable eventually?
19:52:42 <ehird> ejecting the cd rom drive of a lonely server
19:52:43 <ais523> eject famously used to contain a race condition that let you get root privileges
19:52:50 <ais523> although that was fixed ages ago
19:52:55 <ais523> probably before Linux even existed, tbh
19:52:56 <HackEgo> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
19:52:56 <ehird> oh, i thought you were being sillier than that
19:53:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, I think I know what the issue is... is the chroot where it is in empty in reality, but readdir/open/whatever calls are patched to go somewhere else?
19:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, issue with making asm-test work
19:54:03 <AnMaster> anyway I got an idea for how to work around it
19:55:13 <AnMaster> it rather abuses some linux specific features
19:57:08 <ais523> ehird: an issue with attempts to crack out of a sandbox /is/ a feature
19:57:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it is in a chroot too, so that is pointless
19:57:35 <ehird> ais523: well, yeah
19:57:46 <AnMaster> I just want to be able to executed a statically linked binary inside the chroot
19:58:20 <AnMaster> wth, glibc removed it's viewvc thingy?
19:58:21 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally thought I explained that to you :P
19:58:32 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: The hacked glibc provides fake "syscalls"
19:58:42 <ais523> AnMaster: why not send the statically linked binary in via a pastebin, and then run it?
19:58:47 <AnMaster> but I want to execute a statically linked busybox in there
19:58:55 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.S \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.30622
19:59:28 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, current plan: open and read the file in. then mprotect() stuff to execute it
19:59:50 <AnMaster> if I can find how it is implemented
20:00:41 <ehird> ˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀ
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20:06:00 <GregorR-L> There's an upside-down interrobang?!
20:06:35 <pikhq> In my terminal, Ctrl-Shift-2 Ctrl-Shift-E Ctrl-Shift-1 Ctrl-Shift-8.
20:06:57 <pikhq> And it's called a gnaborretni.
20:11:32 <pikhq> ⸘Gnaborretni‽ ⸘Interrobang‽
20:25:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, does egobot support dobela?
20:25:51 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:27:31 <pikhq> I'm the Queen of France!
20:28:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, how large is plash? I mean, installation wise
20:28:34 <AnMaster> just wondering for testing that erl thing
20:28:41 <AnMaster> since there is no gentoo package for it
20:28:56 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I realize that. I have no info.
20:29:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, well good thing, but I don't have any debian or debian-based system
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20:29:30 <ehird> to install plash like that.
20:29:31 <HackEgo> apt 0.7.21 for amd64 compiled on Apr 15 2009 21:31:44 \ Usage: apt-get [options] command \ apt-get [options] install|remove pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ apt-get [options] source pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ \ apt-get is a simple command line interface for downloading and \ installing packages. The most frequently used commands are
20:29:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, what command checks that size
20:29:58 <GregorR-L> Not a clue. If I knew, I would have told you how much space it took :P
20:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, ever looked at the source of the runtime linker?
20:30:33 <ehird> `run apt-get info plash
20:30:37 <ehird> `run apt-cache show plash
20:31:01 <AnMaster> 313 /* The following is not a complete strsep implementation. It cannot
20:31:01 <AnMaster> 314 handle empty delimiter strings. But this isn't necessary for the
20:31:17 <AnMaster> this is elf/dl-minimal.c in glibc source
20:31:18 <ehird> Time it took to write that comment: 30 seconds
20:31:24 <ehird> Time it would take to complete the implementation: 1 minute
20:31:33 <AnMaster> ehird, there are reasons to avoid the full one
20:31:44 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, eglibc has a viewvc.
20:31:50 <AnMaster> ehird, ld.so needs to be quite crazily optimised
20:32:05 <ehird> you complained that glibc didn't have one any more
20:32:08 <AnMaster> they forgot to add a link it seems
20:32:27 <AnMaster> they recently switched to git, and they forgot to add a link to the gitweb-thingy
20:32:33 <AnMaster> http://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=elf/dl-minimal.c;h=e07029326c913aa617d09c9cf2e5453b4ef3ede6;hb=HEAD
20:32:42 <ehird> oh well, debian will kill fsf glibc anyway
20:32:51 <ehird> alas i don't think they can kill drepper
20:32:59 <ehird> AnMaster: debian are abandoning glibc for eglibc
20:33:12 <ehird> originally designed for adding embedded system support
20:33:21 <ehird> but now basically being "glibc except without that goddamn drepper guy"
20:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, and the freebsd runtime linker is quite crazy too
20:33:28 <ehird> http://blog.aurel32.net/?p=47
20:34:29 <AnMaster> ehird, when that code is entered, you can't do malloc or use stdio for example. Nor can you just use the normal malloc(), because the pools it use and such aren't set up, or even possible to set up yet
20:34:46 <AnMaster> remember this is before the actual executable is loaded.
20:34:47 <ehird> !swedish sbrk sbrk sbrk!
20:34:47 <EgoBot> sbrk sbrk sbrk! Bork Bork Bork!
20:36:13 <AnMaster> this indicates that all Swedes are kernel programmers (yes technically userspace, but this is actually more like kernel programming than user space programming until you hit main() (or at least crt.o).
20:36:27 <pikhq> ehird: Eglibc still has embedded system support.
20:36:38 <pikhq> The idea is to make the build system flexible.
20:36:47 <pikhq> And to support useful things, like ARM.
20:36:52 <pikhq> And to not have Drepper.
20:36:53 <AnMaster> I can see where this is leading I think
20:36:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't glibc support ARM?
20:37:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ulrich Drepper refuses to accept patches for it.
20:37:29 <ehird> AnMaster: because he's a fucking asshole.
20:37:29 <AnMaster> some specific issues with those patches or what
20:37:35 <pikhq> He doesn't like ARM.
20:37:42 <ehird> i can't believe red hat employ him
20:37:48 <ehird> they should fire him like 10 times
20:38:00 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think drepper is ever "official"
20:38:19 <pikhq> Also, Glibc only builds with Bash.
20:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is too late. Considering he was one of the people working on POSIX 2008..
20:38:33 <pikhq> Because he refuses patches to make it build with straight Bourne.
20:38:44 <ehird> AnMaster: too late for what?
20:38:47 <ehird> glibc can certainly be displaced
20:38:48 <pikhq> And it won't build with -Os.
20:38:53 <pikhq> Because he refuses patches.
20:39:01 <ehird> and he's obviously criminally incompetent wrt to glibc maintainership
20:39:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can partly understand that, plain sh is quite painful compared to bash...
20:39:03 <ehird> causing people to stop using it
20:39:08 <ehird> thus redhat has good grounds to fire him
20:39:11 <ehird> AnMaster: the patch was ONE LINE, iirc
20:39:17 <ehird> and he refused to apply it
20:39:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: People have submitted patches to make it work.
20:40:15 <AnMaster> lets see what will happen in the future.
20:40:57 <pikhq> Arch is also switching to Eglibc.
20:41:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh when? And will there be any possible transition issues with it?
20:41:34 <ehird> ofc, ubuntu will probably inherit the debian change
20:41:39 <pikhq> Gentoo may, but quite likely not for a while; it's a bitch to switch libc versions in Gentoo.
20:41:39 <ehird> so it's pretty much a done deal as far as marketshare goes
20:41:56 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Like it's trivial to switch glibc in Debian X-D
20:42:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never had issues with that switch
20:42:36 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Touché.
20:42:42 <AnMaster> not even back when it went linuxthreads -> ntpl
20:42:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's a bitch for the Gentoo maintainers, not the users.
20:42:54 <AnMaster> I think mono broke (I used C# back then...)
20:43:18 <pikhq> And they've got a bit less of a labor force than Debian.
20:43:21 <AnMaster> fairly painless considering how huge the change was
20:43:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, if it is really binary compatible, I fail to see why it would be so hard
20:44:10 <ehird> binary compatible "where possible", actually.
20:44:16 <ehird> or where feasible, I forget
20:44:25 <GregorR-L> Which is virtually every conceivable situation :P
20:44:35 <ehird> What it actually means is "when we like".
20:44:45 <GregorR-L> Yeah, but they like being compatible :P
20:44:56 <AnMaster> where is the list of important changes compared to "plain" glibc
20:45:09 <ehird> i think it's compatible atm
20:45:14 <ehird> and what i said was just cynicism
20:45:26 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.eglibc.org/mission
20:45:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant... stuff like "added this cool feature"
20:45:41 <ehird> see their version control?
20:46:14 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I could, but that would include trivial changes too. I meant something more like "highlights in this release" skipping white-space changes and similar :P
20:46:28 <AnMaster> I guess you can't get everything
20:46:33 <ehird> search for YOUR MOM.
20:46:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gentoo is slow to do minor version bumps.
20:46:56 <pikhq> Since they like to treat @system like Debian Stable.
20:53:18 <AnMaster> ffs... http://plash.beasts.org/wiki/BuildingFromSource <-- you think that would be generic instructions right?...
20:53:44 <AnMaster> plash seems very debian-oriented...
20:53:46 <ehird> Uhh, isn't plash Debian only?
20:53:56 <GregorR-L> Yeah, plash is very Debian-oriented. But it's not Debian-only.
20:54:11 <GregorR-L> I've heard of it run on other systems, it's just a bit caveat emptor.
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20:55:20 <pikhq> Could probably run on Gentoo with some effort.
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20:58:06 <GregorR-L> Alternatively, you could get debootstrap, which is easy to get running on other systems, and hey presto :P
20:58:39 <ais523> what does debootstrap do?
20:59:21 <pikhq> Why yes, I'm well aware that debootstrap is easy to get running on other systems.
20:59:40 <AnMaster> I'm a but low on disk space until I get that replacement disk...
20:59:45 <pikhq> It's dev-util/debootstrap
21:00:14 <AnMaster> since my second harddrive broke down last night... I'm left with about 1 GB free space in total
21:00:31 <pikhq> And I keep it installed because I sometimes have call for getting a chroot running at a random whim.
21:00:52 <GregorR-L> pikhq: On any system it's the easiest way to get a working chroot ^^
21:01:06 <GregorR-L> On Debian it's like Russian nesting dolls of Debianness! :P
21:01:30 <pikhq> I've also used it to install Debian on an external hard drive.
21:02:09 <pikhq> (friend at college had a hard drive failure on his laptop, and couldn't get a replacement for a few months. So, plug in his external drive, parted, debootstrap, et viola.)
21:02:37 <pikhq> Erm, wait. No, that was Kubuntu I set up.
21:02:41 <pikhq> Still debootstrap. ;)
21:03:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, it could boot from the external drive?
21:03:45 <AnMaster> I guess that is common nowdays
21:03:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Just have to install Grub.
21:03:59 <pikhq> Yes, USB booting is very common.
21:04:11 <pikhq> And if it weren't, I could just stick isolinux on a CD. ;)
21:04:12 <ehird> very common = everything has it
21:04:22 <ehird> isolinux? bah! use grub on a cd.
21:05:06 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, yeah. That'd work well.
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21:05:38 <ehird> arch uses grub to make an unholy menu system of slowness
21:05:45 <ehird> it's cute and horrible to use.
21:06:01 <AnMaster> ehird, um? I don't remember it being slow
21:06:10 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, takes a second or two to switch to a menu
21:06:12 <pikhq> Well, if they're going to do *that*, they'd be far better to use FreeDOS.
21:06:14 <ehird> your computer is just slow so you don't notice :P
21:06:24 <pikhq> Yes, a FreeDOS batch script with loadlin.
21:06:27 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I wouldn't notice that on the pentium3 I used it on...
21:06:31 <ehird> pikhq: it actually has grub lines that start grub specifying a grub config file
21:06:40 <ehird> and then "back" items that do it again for the main menu
21:06:48 <ehird> a rather fucked up system
21:06:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't using it on my desktop
21:07:05 <pikhq> ehird: Better than chain-loading GRUB installations.
21:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm can you install arch over ssh? that is, boot the cd, set password, start ssh, then to the rest over ssh?
21:07:20 <AnMaster> I don't remember that being possible
21:07:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Can you install a donkey on a futon?
21:07:36 <ehird> I don't remember that being possible.
21:07:48 <pikhq> That's certainly possible with Debian and Gentoo.
21:07:50 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact I only remember ssh on install cd being possible on gentoo
21:07:54 <ehird> (translation: Why are you asking me? Why is that a question? You even say you don't recall it being possible.)
21:08:03 <ehird> pikhq: what, installing a donkey on a futon?
21:08:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, must be rather hidden for debian?
21:08:32 <ehird> debian installation cds do everything
21:08:33 <AnMaster> as in, check the process in a vm, then do the same on a headless computer
21:08:55 <pikhq> But yes, Debian has a very flexible installation process.
21:13:12 <pikhq> In expert mode, it has an option for "continue install remotely over SSH".
21:13:36 <pikhq> If you want this to happen automatically, you can remaster the CD with a preseed file that makes that the default.
21:13:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, I wish freebsd had it though
21:14:03 <pikhq> Also, Debian can readily be installed over serial console.
21:14:06 <AnMaster> since when I install freebsd it tends to be on a system where the options are either ssh or kvm
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21:29:32 <ais523> pikhq: is there a completely unattended installer?
21:29:44 <ais523> as in, boot off the CD and it installs by itself without a need to do anything?
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21:30:44 <pikhq> ais523: You need to remaster the disc to have a preseed file which has answers to the installer questions.
21:31:01 <ais523> I guessed it would be something like that
21:31:06 <pikhq> Or host the installer on TFTP with a preseed file.
21:34:46 <ehird> ais523: how about for actual possibility reasons
21:34:52 <ehird> unless you depend on a CD-RW
21:35:00 <ehird> which is still remastering
21:35:08 <ais523> ehird: you could have something like an alternate ISO for automatic install
21:35:22 <ais523> or just a really long timeout, don't reply for 5 minutes and it does unattended install, although that's a bad idea for other reasons
21:35:24 <ehird> ais523: but it doesn't know how you want t o install...
21:36:55 <pikhq> It's also possible to pass "autourl=foo" to the Debian installer and make it load the preseed from the network...
21:37:55 <GregorR> "Manual of USB Folding Hamburger Controller"
21:38:21 <GregorR> Have I mentioned that I wuuuuuuuuuuurve imported Chinese crap?
21:41:10 <ais523> a USB Folding Hamburger?
21:41:14 <GregorR> A USB folding game controller.
21:41:29 <GregorR> It folds "hamburger-style", for those of you who folded paper in Elementary school in America :P
21:41:29 <ehird> i preferred it when it was a hamburger
21:42:06 <GregorR> Or a hamburger controller ... a device that controls hamburgers.
21:42:12 <ais523> here in the UK we don't fold hamburgers at all
21:42:19 <pikhq> Ah, US elementary school.
21:42:36 <pikhq> Can't teach anything useful, so you get paper folding for 5 years.
21:42:39 <GregorR> ais523: It's a description of a direction of paper folding when the paper is non-square.
21:42:57 <pikhq> GregorR: A4 is also non-square.
21:43:22 <GregorR> I was e.g.'ing that just to get in another US reference :P
21:45:03 <pikhq> A4 has a 1:sqrt(2) aspect ratio.
21:45:07 <pikhq> Pretty non-square, IMO.
21:45:45 <pikhq> And An paper has the interesting property that you can get An+1 paper by cutting it in half.
21:46:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, would be nicer if it folded actual hambugers
21:47:16 * pikhq doesn't get the Bn paper standards
21:47:36 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it controls foldable hamburgers
21:47:40 <AnMaster> <pikhq> And An paper has the interesting property that you can get An+1 paper by cutting it in half. <--- err yeah? What's so special with that...
21:47:47 <ehird> pikhq: 1:phi ratio FTW!
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21:47:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: no, it controls foldable hamburgers <-- ah right
21:47:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's what C is for.
21:48:21 <ehird> (he means it's like hands)
21:48:49 <pikhq> B0 is 1mxsqrt(2)m, and Bn is the geometric mean between An and An-1.
21:49:20 <Deewiant> C is also bigger than A but not as big as B, so it gets a C for not achieving anything special.
21:49:22 <pikhq> And Cn is the geometric mean between An and Bn.
21:51:21 <pikhq> US paper sizes have neither rhyme nor reason.
21:51:36 <GregorR> But they do have ... flavor?
21:51:58 <pikhq> Letter is slightly smaller than A4, and legal is slightly *larger*.
21:51:59 <Deewiant> Letter - about a quarter of the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms.
21:52:31 <Deewiant> There's also government-letter.
21:52:45 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Letter - about a quarter of the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms. <-- seriously?
21:53:03 <Deewiant> The American Forest and Paper Association argues that the dimension originates from the days of manual paper making, and that the 11-inch length of the page is about a quarter of "the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms".[1] However, this does not explain the width or aspect ratio.
21:53:20 <ehird> a vatman is a man... WHO IS ALSO A VAT!!!!!!!!
21:53:27 <Deewiant> He's the man who works at the vat.
21:53:29 <GregorR> ehird: All men are also vats.
21:53:37 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, so not a man made in a cloning vat?
21:53:39 <Deewiant> In this case, he shakes the pulp into the wire.
21:54:01 <Deewiant> [1] is http://www.afandpa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Pulp_and_Paper/Fun_Facts/The_U_S__Standard_Paper_Size.htm, which is incidentally ill-formed XML.
21:54:13 <Deewiant> They forgot to run ASP on their .htm files.
21:54:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what browser can you view it in
21:54:32 <Deewiant> <script type="text/javascript"> var addthis_pub = "shashankhazrati";</script>
21:54:40 <pikhq> Then we've got the ANSI standards, which are A-E. A is letter, n+1 is n*2.
21:54:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2009-06-29 23:54:12 ( Deewiant) They forgot to run ASP on their .htm files.
21:54:57 <ehird> <CMS:ContentBlock id="ContentBlock2" runat="server" DefaultContentID="874">
21:54:57 <ehird> </CMS:ContentBlock>
21:55:01 -!- blackh has joined.
21:55:02 <ehird> A hefty block of content, that.
21:55:04 <Deewiant> If you look at the source, you'll see that it's the ASP source of a 404 page.
21:55:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it sends a strict mime type I think, otherwise firefox would render it as good as it could by itself
21:55:12 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to Duffy.
21:55:20 <ehird> AnMaster: it sends the official xhtml mime type, you mean.
21:55:28 <ehird> xhtml 1.0 (not 1.1) allows text/html for backwards compoopability.
21:55:35 <Deewiant> My recommendation for now is http://web.archive.org/web/20071024123755/http://www.afandpa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Pulp_and_Paper/Fun_Facts/The_U_S__Standard_Paper_Size.htm.
21:55:37 <ehird> (read: IE6 doesn't do application/falafel)
21:55:43 <ehird> (it tries to downloadify it.)
21:56:10 <AnMaster> in fact I made a script to check if the browser supports the mime type, and only then use the new one
21:56:20 <ehird> Yes, just like every other XHTML-using person.
21:56:27 <AnMaster> nowdays I don't think it is actually needed
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21:56:42 <AnMaster> ehird, yes we all did back when IE6 was still common
21:56:52 <ehird> No, that's not true.
21:56:54 <pikhq> IE6 is still used by 25% of people online.
21:56:59 <ehird> Some of us didn't use XHTML because we weren't insane.
21:57:03 <ehird> I was, alas, not among them until later.
21:57:25 <AnMaster> the pages I make? IE6 is definitely a minority
21:58:46 <AnMaster> 65.55.109.172 bzr.kuonet.org - [29/Jun/2009:12:16:45 +0000] "GET /cfunge/trunk/revision/183/doc/ HTTP/1.0" 200 5786 "http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=revision" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.2; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"
21:58:50 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to Duffy.
21:59:34 -!- Duffy has changed nick to Warrigal.
21:59:59 <Deewiant> I love the way it adds itself to the user-agent string without asking
22:00:39 <Deewiant> And it isn't exactly useful given that I usually browse from Linux.
22:01:13 <ehird> how does it add it to your linux user agent string?
22:01:29 <Deewiant> It adds it to some configuration file in my profile, which is shared between the OSs.
22:02:02 <Deewiant> general.useragent.extra.microsoftdotnet is the preference name.
22:02:13 <ehird> what is this OS-shared configuration profile?
22:02:15 <Deewiant> So presumably it's in prefs.js.
22:02:32 <Deewiant> It is the Firefox profile. :-P
22:02:48 <ais523> wow, the obnoxious Microsoft extension that they pushed onto Firefox affects Linux installations too, if you're sharing config?
22:02:51 <ais523> I bet Microsoft didn't expect that
22:04:54 <AnMaster> wouldn't simply disabling the extension solve the issue
22:05:04 <AnMaster> and yeah, why did they install that extension...
22:05:22 <pikhq> Because Microsoft is a bunch of pricks.
22:05:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, disabling the extension doesn't remove .NET CLR from the UA.
22:05:38 <AnMaster> and what did mozilla.org think about it
22:05:55 <pikhq> The extension was uninstallable.
22:05:57 <Deewiant> Microsoft .NET Framework Assistant 1.1
22:06:11 <ais523> pikhq: /was/ ununinstallable, although Microsoft patched it so it could be
22:06:13 <Deewiant> Adds ClickOnce support and the ability to report installed .NET versions to the web server.
22:06:39 <Deewiant> Oh, you're right, it is uninstallable now, hadn't noticed.
22:06:55 <Deewiant> Uninstalling it did remove the string from the UA, at least.
22:09:39 <nooga> I WANT MAC PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
22:09:40 <Deewiant> I do not know, and I'm not sure I wish to.
22:09:44 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, it's for installers for .NET programs
22:09:53 <ais523> so you can click on a link and the installer starts running, without confirmation
22:09:56 <pikhq> Because ActiveX was a good idea.
22:10:09 <ais523> in theory it's safe as they only allow approved installers, and the user can choose not to install
22:10:16 <ais523> in practice, who knows?
22:10:22 <ehird> nooga: Step 1. Get ~$3,000. Step 2. Mac Pro!
22:10:33 <Deewiant> The options did have a toggle for whether to ask for confirmation.
22:10:51 <ais523> for instance, theory: you can create lots of windows without window decorations, and place them at known locations on the screen, and make them steal focus
22:10:57 <ehird> nooga: http://www.apple.com/
22:10:59 <ais523> and they cover up everything but the 'accept' button
22:11:15 <ais523> which is somehow disguised as part of something else
22:13:40 -!- blackh has left (?).
22:14:16 <nooga> ehird: can't buy it
22:14:33 <nooga> i have to eat, buy petrol, pay rent etc.
22:14:34 <ehird> nooga: then you evidently don't have $3k spare.
22:14:42 <pikhq> ais523: Gah. So awful.
22:14:45 <ehird> well now that doesn't count nooga :-P
22:14:53 <pikhq> Win32, the fundamentally flawed API.
22:15:10 <ais523> pikhq: do you think .NET is also fundamentally flawed?
22:16:11 <pikhq> ais523: .NET's main flaw is that it, like Java, has the theory that if some object-oriented programming is good, a lot of it is absolutely great.
22:16:35 <ais523> I at least give Java credit for being consistent, by the way
22:17:05 <pikhq> Mmm, yeah, there is at least that...
22:18:40 <pikhq> .NET has one other flaw. It's core design philosophy is "ME TOO!" (like some dumb AOLer)
22:19:44 <ehird> AOL references are fresh and hip
22:20:07 <pikhq> That was actually a Weird Al reference.
22:20:41 <ehird> ...weird al invented AOL="Me too!"?
22:20:59 <ehird> Uhhh...huuuhh...sorry, somebody put me in the particle decelerator there.
22:22:26 <pikhq> No, he used the phrase "saying 'Me too!' like some dumb AOLer"
22:23:13 <pikhq> In "It's All About the Pentiums".
22:23:22 <ehird> That's as much of a reference to him as... as... as something someone else didn't invent.
22:23:52 <pikhq> Fuck off, I don't care, lalalala, and you're dumb.
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22:43:26 <ais523> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
22:43:30 <EgoBot> 127 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [398]
22:44:37 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Fuck off, I don't care, lalalala, and you're dumb. <-- stop acting like ehird... It makes me confused...
22:44:51 <AnMaster> ais523, there are considerably shorter versions
22:46:04 <zid> use a 5bit encoding and a decoder? :P
22:46:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I know, I was responding to a question in #IRP
22:46:32 <ais523> zid: interesting idea; that's likely longer for short strings, though
22:46:35 <ais523> for long strings, I don't know
22:47:39 <EgoBot> 72 +++++++++++++[>>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.>.<.>.<.>.>---. [167]
22:47:49 <AnMaster> and that was one silly encoding...
22:48:09 <pikhq> !bf +++++++++++++[>>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.>.<.>.<.>.>---.
22:48:13 <EgoBot> 246 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>--.-------------------------.-----------.<+++++.>+++.<<++.<.-------------------------------.>>++++.<.>>+.<----.<.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------.>----------------------. [709]
22:50:08 <zid> i'd probably just block copy the smallest character, then add/sub the dfferences per char
22:50:22 <zid> or some midline character
22:50:27 <nooga> mardi gras mardi gras
22:50:38 <zid> so abcdefghijkl just ends up being a load of 'a', 25 copies and a loop adding the loop iterator
22:51:10 <zid> I am however, quite mad
22:52:05 <pikhq> Here's how I'd do abcdefghijkl: --[+++++>->++<<]>----->[--<.+>]
22:52:22 <pikhq> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
22:52:28 <pikhq> !bf --[+++++>->++<<]>----->[--<.+>]
22:52:29 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
22:52:42 <pikhq> Nice bit of golfing, that.
22:53:27 <pikhq> Code golf -- competing to make the shortest program to do a predefined task.
22:53:35 <ais523> attempting to write a program as shortly as possible
22:53:41 <zid> I used to do those in x86 asm
22:53:42 <pikhq> Especially popular in Perl.
22:54:10 <ais523> there was a BF golfing tournament at Agora ages ago, before they went and invented BF Joust
22:54:10 <zid> I got the example 500 byte program down to about 120 iirc
22:54:24 <pikhq> That snippet is from a Brainfuck golf contest another IRC channel I'm in had.
22:54:27 <zid> using compression and putting the all the loops together
22:54:40 <pikhq> The next smallest program was some 40 chars.
22:56:28 <AnMaster> was the shortest test containing all three of those chars and that was still a sensible sentence I could think of
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22:57:01 <AnMaster> oh and in alphabetic order too!
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23:00:31 <AnMaster> reading the AMD64 ABI is fun...
23:03:04 <nooga> Application Bugging Interface?
23:21:40 <nooga> ais523: Agora golfing in what?
23:22:07 <ais523> nooga: they had a Brainfuck golfing competition a while ago
23:30:43 <ais523> because there are lots of esoprogrammers there
23:31:44 <ais523> it's also why nomic gets discussed here occasionally
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23:51:06 <oerjan> who the hell is spoony anyway...
23:52:15 <pikhq> I wonder if he's a spoony bard.
23:54:29 <oerjan> also, why is that _not_ a spoonerism. apparently.
23:55:17 <pikhq> Boony spard makes less sense.
23:55:50 <oerjan> and bony spaard is not much better
23:57:41 <GregorR> oerjan: You were running a Haskell snippet that printed "BRAAAAAINS" right as she was writing "BRAAAAAINS" in a different channel :P
23:57:49 <GregorR> Seemed a little bit unlikely :P
23:58:12 <GregorR> So I came to the ONLY natural conclusion.
23:58:19 <oerjan> except that was induced by someone here mentioning zombies, i think
23:59:59 <oerjan> goddammit i bit my lip again