00:00:09 <ehird> if you combine with me you'll insert random words accidentally!
00:00:15 <augur> and you complain about MY english!
00:00:17 <ehird> With your powers combined, I am CAPTAIN PLANET!
00:00:36 <augur> BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED
00:00:39 <augur> I AM CAPTAIN PLANET
00:00:44 <ehird> LACK OF HOMONYM DISTINGUISHING
00:00:59 <ehird> ABILITY TO NOT DISTINGUISH HOMONYMS
00:01:03 <ehird> ABILITY TO NOT RECOGNIZE SYMBOLS
00:01:11 <ehird> ABILITY TO NOT AVOID INSERTING RANDOM WORDS
00:01:15 <ehird> BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED
00:01:16 <ehird> I AM CAPTAIN PLANET
00:01:19 <ehird> augur: ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ backlog
00:01:40 <augur> silhouettes are not symbols.
00:01:45 <augur> they're depictions.
00:01:48 <augur> theres a difference.
00:01:53 <ehird> waaaaaaah i'm augur and i'm a pedant who hates funny
00:02:04 <augur> well it was rather funny actually
00:02:09 <augur> but the word choice was wrong
00:02:34 <augur> its funnier if you realize that symbolic intelligence is distinctly human, while silhouette recognition is something even lowly reptiles can do
00:02:52 -!- coppro has joined.
00:03:33 <ehird> that's irrelevant to it
00:03:46 * Warrigal makes an angry post about the Monty Hall Problem.
00:05:11 <ehird> Warrigal: are you really able to get angry about that?
00:05:22 * oerjan predends to make an angry post about how Warrigal ignores the subtleties of the Monty Hall Problem.
00:09:50 <Warrigal> And precisely the point I'm making has been made, probably in more detail, eighteen years ago.
00:09:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
00:14:34 <ehird> i wanna buy a box, put openbsd on it
00:14:42 <ehird> give it a hugely phat internet pipe
00:14:47 <ehird> deny everything in the firewall
00:14:50 <ehird> apart from web traffic
00:14:59 <ehird> run a server that rejects ANY invalid http at first sight
00:15:05 <ehird> and only serves static pages extremely securely and quickly
00:15:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:15:12 <ehird> then put a huuuuuuuuuge library of exploits on there
00:15:14 <ehird> and taunt anti-sec
00:16:27 <ehird> also, put some anti-ddos crap on there
00:16:29 <ehird> just in case they try
00:23:04 <ehird> http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html
00:23:11 <ehird> find latex symbols by drawing them
00:28:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:29:20 <pikhq> ehird: BTW, "a server that rejects ANY invalid http at first sight" -- I believe that OpenBSD's patched Apache will suffice.
00:29:48 <ehird> pikhq: Apache is far too big to trust like that.
00:30:44 <ehird> I'm thinking thttpd sort of thing.
00:31:14 <pikhq> I seem to recall that OpenBSD did regular security audits of their Apache.
00:31:30 <pikhq> Few lines of Haskell, then?
00:31:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:32:03 <ehird> pikhq: they may well do; that won't help against anti-sec's undisclosed exploits
00:32:06 <ehird> I would not trust Haskell in this system.
00:32:30 <pikhq> Then you don't trust OpenBSD.
00:32:35 <ehird> OpenBSD, smallest system possible, locked-down firewall apart from web traffic, extremely minimal, extremely hardened static web server, simple anti-DDOS measures
00:32:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:32:46 <ehird> that's about as trustable as you can get
00:32:58 <ehird> (no ssh access either; configure it before coloing it)
00:33:17 <pikhq> ... You're making it more secure than OpenBSD is outside of the box.
00:33:23 <pikhq> That is... Impressive.
00:33:59 <ehird> Anyway, I'd enjoy imagining their acne-filled faces swelling up into a fury.
00:34:09 <ehird> "HOW DARE THEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!"
00:34:51 <pikhq> I suggest starting with thttpd and hardening that.
00:37:14 <ehird> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 9,758
00:37:36 <ehird> pikhq: it's not exactly small
00:37:45 <ehird> and i'm not sure i'd trust unmaintained software THAT much
00:39:23 <ehird> pikhq: ideas for a base: boa, fnord
00:39:31 <ehird> fnord uses djb-style stuff
00:39:34 <ehird> so is probably quite secure
00:39:36 <ehird> and it's also very fast
00:40:00 <ehird> boa is a bit unmaintained and slower than fnord
00:40:10 <ehird> pikhq: otoh, then we need to trust both openbsd libs AND the djb libs
00:40:49 <pikhq> And the OpenBSD libs are probably more trustable.
00:41:57 <ehird> pikhq: considering djb's security recodr that's not necessarily true
00:42:30 <ehird> pikhq: ok, it depends on dietlibc and libowfat
00:42:35 <ehird> it includes libowfat
00:42:52 <ehird> http://www.fefe.de/libowfat/ is a reimplementation of libdjb under GPL
00:42:59 <ehird> diet libc everyone knows
00:43:05 <ehird> pikhq: hey, can OpenBSD use dietlibc by default?
00:43:10 <ehird> that way you could reduce the things to trust
00:43:20 <ehird> esp. if they have a maintained fnord
00:43:22 <pikhq> No, it has its own libc.
00:43:28 <ehird> not even an option?
00:43:41 <pikhq> And I think that nobody's even tried porting other libcs to it.
00:44:08 <pikhq> Besides which, nuking the libc gets rid of the address space randomization of its malloc.
00:46:43 <ehird> pikhq: but fnord in itself comes to 1,953 SLOC
00:46:53 <ehird> including the distribution perl and shell scripts :P
00:47:32 <ehird> pikhq: although libowfat is 12,464, it's questionable how much is actually used in fnodr
00:48:34 <pikhq> But LOC is a bad measure.
00:49:01 <ehird> pikhq: The easier to audit, the more trustable you can heuristicerize.
00:52:24 <ehird> `define GregorR's face
00:52:29 <ehird> Two things that do not exist by GregorR's logic.
00:59:18 <oerjan> sir, that is not a kitty, that is a sewer rat
01:00:10 <GregorR> Well, then it's a big, fuzzy, pretty sewer rat.
01:00:40 <ehird> There's more to a qubit than probabilityOfBeingOne, right?
01:00:46 <ehird> (And associated operations.)
01:01:25 <ehird> oerjan: that's helpful :D
01:01:52 <oerjan> actually, a single qubit state is a complex vector with 2 coordinates
01:02:24 <oerjan> n qubits, 2^n coordinates
01:02:24 <ehird> oerjan: i don't see how that's actually related to a qubit, though
01:02:34 <ehird> it seems that one qubit is just a probability of being 1 or 0
01:02:42 <GregorR> And of course there's entanglement.
01:03:17 <ehird> GregorR: Uhh, that's accounted for.
01:03:26 <oerjan> ehird: the problem is that that gives you no help when collecting more than one qubit together
01:03:43 <ehird> a|0> + b|1> → probability=0.5
01:03:55 <ehird> oerjan: so qubits can't be [Qubit]? you need to have them linked?
01:03:59 <ehird> makes sense I guess
01:04:10 <oerjan> unless they don't communicate
01:04:57 <ehird> oerjan: i assume you need that for staples like Shor's algorithm, so let's ignore that
01:05:05 <ehird> i'm just wondering what a Bog Standard Qubit is
01:06:51 <oerjan> a and b complex numbers as above, with |a|^2 + |b|^2 = 1
01:07:24 <oerjan> and |a|^2 and |b|^2 are the probabilities of 0 and 1 respectively
01:08:07 <ehird> oerjan: so it's ((a,b),(c,d))?
01:08:32 <oerjan> i didn't mention any c or d
01:09:04 <ehird> oerjan: "a and b complex numbers"
01:09:10 <ehird> a complex number can be represented as (real,imag)
01:09:28 <ehird> so it's ((r1,i1),(r2,i2))
01:09:41 <oerjan> > 2 :+ 3 :: Complex Double
01:09:54 <ehird> oerjan: so "a and b complex numbers" isn't true
01:09:57 <ehird> that implies two complex numbers
01:10:16 <oerjan> a is a complex number, b is a complex number
01:10:28 <ehird> so (a,b) where a = (r1,i1) and b = (r2,i2)
01:10:37 <olsner> what was that site with a series of numbered mysterious items?
01:10:37 <ehird> oerjan: and [ri][12] are reals?
01:11:00 <ehird> oerjan: can said reals be uncomputable? :-D
01:11:47 <oerjan> but you won't get that if you only apply computable unitary transformations
01:12:01 <olsner> it was iirc a three-letter initialism
01:12:13 <ehird> oerjan: will you get rationals or computable reals?
01:12:41 <oerjan> ehird: hm, might depend on your operations
01:12:53 <ehird> oerjan: "quantum complete"
01:13:11 <oerjan> i'm not sure what things like shor's algorithm uses
01:14:21 <ehird> oerjan: isn't that hardaadandjand gate transform + fourier "quantum complete?
01:14:46 <oerjan> i suppose it is considered to be so?
01:15:27 <ehird> oerjan: so, I'm not sure how you go from (a,b) → probabilityOfOne
01:15:32 <oerjan> i don't remember what those are, at the moment
01:15:57 <ehird> so what's a used for?
01:16:04 <oerjan> which is the same as r2^2 + i2^2
01:16:36 <ehird> also |b| = abs(b)? my mathematical notation is rusty
01:16:41 <olsner> it was really funny too! no-one remembers?
01:16:41 <oerjan> the phase of a can still vary
01:16:58 <ehird> olsner: care to be more specific?
01:17:01 <ehird> 01:16 oerjan: the phase of a can still vary
01:17:24 <oerjan> ehird: knowing |b|^2 determines |a|, but not the phase of a
01:18:09 <olsner> ehird: it was about a fictional organization that had as its mission to keep artifacts with mysterious powers safe
01:18:40 <olsner> each artifact was numbered also
01:18:55 <ehird> olsner: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/
01:19:24 <ehird> olsner: if you find it *funny* i think you're reading the bad ones :D
01:19:38 <ehird> oerjan: |a|^2 + |b|^2 = 1 right?
01:19:43 <oerjan> ehird: in polar coordinates, a = |a|*e^(i*theta)
01:19:56 <olsner> ehird: funny as in entertaining, not as in haha-funny
01:20:09 <olsner> SCP it was! thanks! :D
01:20:17 <ehird> olsner: hmm. odd usage. is that common in — *checks* — swedish?
01:20:32 <oerjan> = |a|*cos(theta) + i|a|*sin(theta)
01:21:11 <ehird> oerjan: that just lets me determine a from |a|
01:21:14 <ehird> not a from nothing
01:21:19 <oerjan> theta can vary independently from |a|
01:21:48 <ehird> oerjan: i saw a qubit.py that was like 70 lines
01:21:52 <ehird> this sounds far too complex for that :D
01:21:59 <oerjan> ehird: i am pointing out that even if you know b, and that |a|^2+|b|^2 = 1, you don't know everything about a
01:22:48 <olsner> ehird: the word for funny does primarily mean funny in swedish too, but something that is entertaining is also fun
01:22:53 <ehird> pikhq: i'm underage.
01:23:00 <ehird> olsner: right, fun != funny
01:23:09 <pikhq> ehird: Okay, so you're not all that many quantums.
01:23:24 <ehird> if you know what i mean
01:24:00 <ehird> Prelude Data.Complex> (1 :+ 2) :+ (3 :+ 4)
01:24:00 <ehird> <interactive>:1:0:
01:24:01 <ehird> No instance for (RealFloat (Complex t))
01:24:02 <ehird> awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:24:33 <olsner> (1 :+ 2) + (3 :+ 4) you mean?
01:24:36 <oerjan> ehird: the second :+ should be just +
01:24:53 <ehird> i want to make it a qubit
01:25:08 <ehird> and trying to use :+ as (,)
01:25:20 <oerjan> well that won't work reasonably
01:26:09 <olsner> a qubit is a pair of complex numbers? or a quaternion?
01:26:52 <oerjan> "(Exactly what unitaries can be applied depend on the physics of the quantum device.)"
01:27:36 <oerjan> ehird: so it is possibly not agreed upon what quantum complete requires...
01:28:12 <oerjan> grmbl wikipedia locking up
01:30:56 <ehird> import System.Environment
01:30:56 <ehird> main = mapM_ putStrLn =<< getArgs
01:31:00 <ehird> #include <stdio.h>
01:31:00 <ehird> int main(int argc, char **argv) {
01:31:02 <ehird> for (int i = 0; i < argc; i++) puts(argv[i]);
01:31:06 <ehird> We report, you decide!
01:31:28 <ehird> The latter being bad style :)
01:31:37 <oerjan> the latter doesn't print newlines
01:33:20 <ehird> The C is about 1.9s faster, though. If you pass it 1000000 arguments.
01:34:06 <ehird> If you pass only a measly 100000, it's 0.179s slower.
01:34:27 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 487K 2009-07-13 01:28 foo
01:34:27 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 13K 2009-07-13 01:32 foo2
01:34:32 <ehird> And the ghc executable is KILOBYTES bigger!
01:34:33 <oerjan> what about main = putStr . unlines =<< getArgs ?
01:34:54 <ehird> oerjan: that's not what the C does.
01:35:05 <ehird> and writing THAT in C would be true torture
01:36:59 <ehird> first you'd have to malloc() it all
01:37:01 <ehird> and expand dynamically
01:37:04 <ehird> then you'd have to write a join function
01:37:06 <ehird> which again allocates
01:37:08 <ehird> and writes a whole new string
01:37:12 <ehird> (the haskell here would have an advantage, building bit by bit)
01:37:20 <ehird> if you combine the two steps, resulting in harder-to-read code, it's still hard
01:37:52 <pikhq> Whereas the Haskell is about as easy to read as a UNIX pipeline.
01:38:01 <olsner> putStr . unlines only describes the result though - I'd say it's perfectly sensible to write a per-character iteration or something like that instead in C
01:38:12 <ehird> pikhq: Well, it's written applicative-y
01:38:19 <ehird> "getArgs >>= mapM_ putStrLn" would be pipey
01:38:41 <pikhq> ehird: Sure. I'm just saying it's as easy to read as a UNIX pipeline. :)
01:38:55 <ehird> pikhq: But unix pipelines aren't especially easy to read :P
01:39:04 <pikhq> ... Sure they are.
01:39:10 <pikhq> In the trivial cases, at least.
01:39:18 <ehird> trivial perl's easy to read too.
01:40:35 <ehird> @hoogle (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:36 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d
01:40:42 <ehird> @hoogle Functor m => (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:42 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d
01:40:46 <olsner> what language manages to make even trivial things unreadable?
01:40:46 <ehird> @hoogle Applicative m => (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:47 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d
01:40:55 <ehird> @hoogle Applicative m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:56 <lambdabot> Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:56 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:56 <lambdabot> Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
01:41:02 <ehird> @hoogle Functor m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:41:03 <lambdabot> Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:41:03 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:41:03 <lambdabot> Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
01:41:06 <ehird> hmm so =<< it is then
01:41:11 <ehird> 01:40 olsner: what language manages to make even trivial things unreadable?
01:41:14 <ehird> look at the channel you're in
01:41:46 <pikhq> And raise you a moo.
01:41:55 <olsner> haha, kind of like asking for your glasses when you already have them on
01:42:03 <ehird> !cxx std::vector<std::string> foo("Hello", "world!");
01:42:09 <ehird> Let's assume that worked.
01:42:21 <ehird> !cxx std::vector<std::string> foo = {"Hello", "world!"};
01:42:35 <ehird> GregorR: better error reporting would be appreciated
01:43:59 <ehird> !cxx std::string elems[] = {"Hello", "world!"}; std::vector<std::string> strings(elems, elems + sizeof elems);
01:44:02 <ehird> i cannot believe you have to do that.
01:44:07 <pikhq> I wonder if it includes obvious headers.
01:44:40 <pikhq> !cxx std::string foo = "Hello, world!";
01:45:01 <pikhq> !cxx std::cout << "Hello, world!";
01:45:06 <ehird> GregorR: Gee, remind me to never report an issue to you ever again.
01:45:20 <ehird> !cxx std::string fuck = "Hello, world!"; std::cout << fuck
01:45:22 <pikhq> I think we can conclude that C++ sucks.
01:45:35 <olsner> hey, it's C++, you wouldn't understand the error message anyway
01:45:39 <ehird> !cxx std::vector<std::string> fuck;
01:45:47 <ehird> olsner: weren't you that one trying to replace C++?
01:46:01 <ehird> !cxx #include <vector>; int main() { std::vector<std::string> fuck; }
01:46:23 <pikhq> ehird: You'd need to include a literal newline there.
01:46:30 <pikhq> The C preprocessor sucks.
01:46:33 <ehird> you can do it with !c can't you
01:46:41 <ehird> !cxx int main() { std::vector<std::string> fuck; }; #include <vector>
01:46:50 <ehird> FUCK YOU EgoBot AND YOUR TWELVE WIVES.
01:47:22 <ehird> incidentally, let's golf lambdacat:
01:47:29 <ehird> main = putStr =<< getContents
01:47:34 <ehird> main = interact id
01:47:41 <ehird> oops, i finished :)
01:48:06 <GregorR> Heh, it includes iostream but not string :P
01:48:14 <ehird> pikhq: That $ is the same length as a space.
01:48:20 <ehird> a space is semantically simpler
01:48:24 <ehird> GregorR: std::string works, so.
01:48:24 <GregorR> ehird: The problem is that there are two attempts at compiling it, and it's impossible to know which error is useful.
01:48:26 <ehird> it's <vector> we need.
01:48:31 <ehird> GregorR: wut? howso?
01:48:35 <pikhq> $ is more dollary.
01:48:39 <ehird> pikhq: And syntactic golfing is zzzzzzzz
01:51:26 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:51:34 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
01:51:45 <ehird> Hey, I have a challenge. Your script/binary will be called "test". Golf the printing of "test: <<loop>>"
01:51:55 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
01:52:13 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
01:52:27 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
01:52:32 <GregorR> ehird: I compile it once in main() and once as a whole file; if both produce an error, probably only one of those errors is useful, but it's impossible to guess which.
01:53:06 <EgoBot> Interpreter id installed.
01:53:11 <ehird> pikhq: That's longer than mine. (That's what she said, but.)
01:53:11 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
01:53:38 <EgoBot> Interpreter id deleted.
01:54:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter id installed.
01:54:46 <pikhq> !sh echo "m@main=m">>tmp.hs;ghc --make tmp.hs;./tmp
01:54:46 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.19965: line 1: tmp.hs: Permission denied
01:55:03 <pikhq> DAMN YOU NOT HACKEGO!!!
01:55:16 <Warrigal> I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to make a cat interpreter.
01:55:20 <ehird> !sh echo "m@main=m">>tmp.hs;ghc --make tmp.hs;chmod +x tmp;./tmp
01:55:20 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.20007: line 1: tmp.hs: Permission denied
01:55:26 <ehird> ...........................................
01:55:34 <ehird> GregorR: are file extensions ignored?
01:56:03 <pikhq> The failure is writing tmp.hs in the first place.
01:56:40 <Warrigal> !addinterp bypass_ignore sh cat
01:56:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter bypass_ignore installed.
01:56:56 <Warrigal> Hey, it's one of the possible names for that interpreter I didn't think of.
01:57:06 <ehird> Eh? What kind of ignorey?
01:57:10 <ehird> Is EgoBot ignoring the Warrigal?
01:58:10 <Warrigal> !ehird What do you do, my eponymous friend?
01:58:11 <EgoBot> Wut do you do, my eponymous friend?
01:58:14 <GregorR> ehird: You can't write files.
01:58:15 <pikhq> No, but presumably it allows you to bypass someone else's ignore. ;)
01:58:24 <oerjan> EgoBot doesn't like dogs, being written by a cat person
01:58:28 <pikhq> That's what HackEgo's for.
01:58:52 <Warrigal> I was expecting it to do something along the lines of:
01:58:52 <ehird> !funetak I think nooga named it that because he's an idiot.
01:58:59 <ehird> !ehird I think nooga named it that because he's an idiot.
01:59:00 <EgoBot> Em tunk nooga named it that because he's an idiot.
01:59:07 <ehird> !addinterp funetak sh funetak
01:59:07 <EgoBot> Interpreter funetak installed.
01:59:08 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
01:59:20 <ehird> Warrigal: That's just fmt -w thingy.
01:59:27 -!- GregorR has joined.
02:05:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:05:31 <zzo38> Is there a such thing as log base two of aleph zero?
02:06:05 <oerjan> not as a cardinality, anyway
02:06:24 <ehird> i almost understood that
02:06:27 <zzo38> I didn't think there could be, but I wanted to ask anyways.
02:06:59 <oerjan> maybe as a surreal number, but i don't know if 2^ means the same thing there as with cardinalities
02:07:28 <ehird> holy shit, Poromenos' comment karma is 59,928
02:07:53 <ehird> his name is apropos.
02:08:00 <zzo38> I think you can have two (or any positive number) to the power of aleph zero to make aleph one
02:08:03 <oerjan> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ :D
02:08:38 <oerjan> zzo38: you mean beth one, unless you assume the continuum hypothesis
02:08:51 <zzo38> O, I mean beth one. I didn
02:09:27 <zzo38> O, I mean beth one. I didn't actually know that "beth" to mean this was standard at all. I invented this notation too independently a long time ago and haven't heard about it since.
02:09:29 <Warrigal> > map (unwords . words) $ (\s -> case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s') $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?"
02:09:45 <ehird> Warrigal: that is ridiculously verbose.
02:09:51 <ehird> it hurts to look at.
02:10:08 <oerjan> zzo38: beth_(n+1) = 2^(beth_n)
02:10:19 <ehird> oerjan: any base cases?
02:10:24 <oerjan> aleph_(n+1) = minimum cardinality > aleph_n
02:10:27 <Warrigal> > let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in map (unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?"
02:10:29 <lambdabot> ["what do you do","my eponymous friend"]
02:10:45 <oerjan> yes, beth_0 = aleph_0 = cardinality of natural numbers
02:11:03 <ehird> oerjan: oh, how boring, i thought it was a cute factorial-like thing
02:11:17 <oerjan> and for larger non-successors, aleph and beth are continuous (preserving limits)
02:11:21 <Warrigal> I'd say that the log base two of aleph_zero is well-defined but nonexistent.
02:11:24 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that was actually my own notation too a long time ago, but I never used it because I didn't know that other people had invented it too (although I had suspected it before, but never actually known it). Yes I would know that's what "beth" is.
02:11:39 <ehird> > let expotorial 0 = 1; expotorial n = n ^ expotorial (n-1) in map expotorial [1..3]
02:11:42 <ehird> > let expotorial 0 = 1; expotorial n = n ^ expotorial (n-1) in map expotorial [1..5]
02:11:43 <lambdabot> [1,2,9,262144,6206069878660874470748320557284679309194219265199117173177383...
02:11:48 <ehird> that's some nice blowup
02:12:15 <Warrigal> > let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in unlines $ map (("<ehird> " ++) . unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?"
02:12:17 <lambdabot> "<ehird> what do you do\n<ehird> my eponymous friend\n"
02:12:35 <ehird> > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = factorial n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..5]
02:12:40 <ehird> > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = fact n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..5]
02:12:41 <Warrigal> Great, now make that into an interpreter.
02:12:44 <ehird> > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = fact n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..10]
02:12:45 <lambdabot> [1,2,12,288,34560,24883200,125411328000,5056584744960000,183493347225108480...
02:12:51 <zzo38> # Appears as Jordan
02:12:52 <ehird> hmm i prefer expotorial
02:13:46 <zzo38> That's a Microsoft Chat code (usually uses DATA command). I see it whenever I connect to a channel that people using Microsoft Comic Chat. I don't use it myself, though
02:14:08 <Warrigal> !addinterp eehird haskell main = interact (let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in unlines $ map (("<ehird> " ++) . unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower)
02:14:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter eehird installed.
02:14:09 <oerjan> ehird: looks like the beginning of something ackermann-like
02:14:22 <ehird> zzo38: nobody's connected with microsoft comic chat...
02:14:29 <Warrigal> !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say?
02:14:31 <ehird> I deleted regular ehird
02:14:33 <zzo38> I know that. That's why I am just kidding
02:14:48 <oerjan> actually, aleph_(n+1) = minimum _well-orderable_ cardinality > aleph_n, if you don't even assume the axiom of choice
02:14:53 <Warrigal> !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say?
02:15:20 <ehird> oerjan: what we really need is f_0(x,y) = x+y, f_1(x,y) = x*y, f_2(x,y) = x^y, f_3(x,y) = not sure what it's called
02:15:25 <ehird> i'd code it but i'm a bit lazy
02:15:35 <ehird> then we could do fun fun things
02:15:46 <ehird> !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say?
02:15:53 <ehird> 02:15 CTCP-query unknown(DCC CHAT) from EgoBot : chat 1077849409 10052
02:16:56 <oerjan> ehird: i think that may be considered a variant of the ackermann function already
02:17:03 <ehird> oerjan: sudan, no?
02:17:17 <oerjan> huh? haven't heard that name
02:17:22 * Zuu eats zzo38
02:17:27 <ehird> oerjan: it's the first non-primitive recursion thingy
02:18:05 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in map (op 1) [1..]
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
02:18:18 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 1) [1..] [2..]
02:18:19 <lambdabot> [2,6,12,20,30,42,56,72,90,110,132,156,182,210,240,272,306,342,380,420,462,5...
02:18:30 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 2) [1..] [2..]
02:18:31 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
02:18:45 <oerjan> ehird: hm no the sudan function doesn't equal that...
02:18:48 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x 1 = x; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 2) [1..] [2..]
02:18:52 <ehird> oerjan: closer, though
02:18:52 <lambdabot> [1,8,81,1024,15625,279936,* Exception: stack overflow
02:19:03 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x 1 = x; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 3) [1..] [2..]
02:19:13 <ehird> that's some hefty function
02:19:24 * ehird puts mathematica on the job
02:19:38 <zzo38> I have read Godel,Escher,Bach book. And I also played a text-adventure game Goose,Egg,Badger
02:21:18 <ehird> we can't even calculate the first ten op[3,n,2]s
02:22:01 <ehird> oerjan: not even the first five
02:22:10 <zzo38> If you have Mathematica, can you answer the Three Fundamental Questions of Mathematica Player, now?
02:22:19 <ehird> oerjan: op[3, n, 2] starts {1, 4, 27, 256}, anyway
02:22:58 <ehird> oerjan: huh {1, 4, 27, 256} is the start of the sequence (sum of digits of n)^n
02:23:12 <ehird> also Write n in decimal, omit 0's, raise each digit k to k-th power and multiply.
02:23:16 <ehird> also n^(initial digit of n).
02:23:20 <ehird> after an initial 1
02:23:29 <zzo38> How large a number can be entered in Mathematica and Mathematica Player, whether numbers can be pasted into Mathematica Player, and whether Mathematica Player can convert strings to expressions.
02:23:41 <oerjan> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_operator
02:24:05 <ehird> zzo38: Mathematica supports bignums and arbitrary-precision reals and the like, what's that supposed to mean, what's that supposed to mean.
02:24:09 <ehird> Mathematica Player doesn't let you code anything.
02:24:12 <ehird> Just run existing notebooks.
02:24:16 <ehird> zzo38: just pirate Mathematica
02:24:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Just install Maxima.
02:24:34 <ehird> oerjan: hmm that's sad :(
02:24:40 <ehird> zzo38: don't do what pikhq says
02:24:41 <zzo38> ehird: I would rather not if I can avoid it.
02:24:45 <ehird> and can't do half the things mathematica does
02:24:48 <ehird> zzo38: then pony up the $1,000+
02:24:57 <ehird> and support the immoral selling of unscarce goods
02:25:14 <ehird> pikhq: Maxima is legal, and oh my god this system is awfultastic.
02:25:21 <ehird> And has not the gigantic library of Mathematica.
02:25:43 <ehird> I don't think you've used Mathematica :P
02:25:52 <oerjan> ehird: really, that is too obvious to be new. i am pretty sure i also reinvented it at one point.
02:25:59 <zzo38> I know Mathematica has ToExpression. You can't load data from files or input strings in Mathematica Player, but it doesn't say anything about ToExpression not working.
02:25:59 <pikhq> I'm well-aware that GHC is not a CAS.
02:26:22 <ehird> zzo38: it presumably supports everything apart from coding yourself. Okay, I have a third option now; it's free or cheap.
02:26:24 <zzo38> If anyone has the player can you test it?
02:26:33 <ehird> zzo38: Get into a good university that has a copy of Mathematica.
02:26:39 <ehird> Or, get into any university and get a student discount.
02:27:26 <ehird> oerjan: OK so what i was talking about is tetration
02:27:46 <pikhq> Which is much easier to compute.
02:27:50 <ehird> the next one appears to be 65.536
02:28:07 <ehird> 1, 4, 27, 256, 3,125
02:28:18 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Tetration_escape.gif
02:28:21 <ehird> smells like mandelbrot
02:29:50 <lambdabot> [1,4,27,256,3125,46656,823543,16777216,387420489,10000000000,285311670611,8...
02:30:17 <ehird> oerjan: ha, so op n = join (op (n-1))?
02:31:04 <ehird> oerjan: so it only applies to tetration?
02:31:11 <ehird> remember that op (n-1) = (^) in this cae
02:31:19 <ehird> its because of the extra argument
02:31:19 <pikhq> > join (+) <$> [1..]
02:31:21 <lambdabot> [2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52,...
02:31:22 <ehird> it only covers one type of tetration
02:31:27 <Warrigal> Cute Rock, Paper, Scissors variant: there are six choices, A, B, C, D, E, and F; and A < B, A > C, A > D, A > E, A > F, B < C, B > D, B < E, B < F, C > D, C > E, C > F, D > E, D > F, and E > F.
02:31:27 <zzo38> Is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Suxesol turing-complete?
02:31:29 <ehird> pikhq: incidentally, here's the perl version of that haskell code
02:31:40 <ehird> probably the shortest, most direct so far
02:31:56 <ehird> zzo38: Uhh, ask an oracle.
02:32:06 <pikhq> ehird: Sure, but that's Perl.
02:32:12 <zzo38> I'm asking for your opinion, though.
02:32:27 <zzo38> Do you think it is turing-comlpete? Do you think it works?
02:32:40 <ehird> zzo38: I don't know. It looks TC.
02:32:49 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, not all of Perl is bad.
02:32:53 <pikhq> Turing completeness is not a matter of opinion. :P
02:33:16 <Warrigal> Yes, but probable Turing completeness is.
02:33:17 <pikhq> ehird: Sure; pretend it's shell scripting with more features and you'll do alright.
02:33:25 <ehird> pikhq: Or use Moose.
02:33:29 <GregorR> pikhq: It's a matter of flavor.
02:33:38 <ehird> I mean, "x foo y" being "foo (y) { x }" for a control structure is clever
02:33:50 <ehird> And the $_ stuff, while sometimes icky, does make for very direct code.
02:33:58 <pikhq> GregorR: Anosmic says what?
02:33:58 <zzo38> I know turing complete is not a matter of opinion. I want your opinion on whether you think it is turing complete, not on whether or not it really is turing complete (unless you can prove it, in which case do prove it).
02:34:05 <ehird> foreach my $x (@ARGV) { say $x; } looks stupid.
02:34:33 <ehird> pikhq: Perl 6's object system for Perl 5; plus a shitload of CPAN modules. Postmodern. Meta-object protocol included. http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Moose-0.87/lib/Moose.pm
02:34:38 <Warrigal> zzo38: can you write predecessor in it?
02:34:42 <ehird> Empathetically a best practice.
02:34:45 <GregorR> pikhq: For the first time I realized that red wine and coffee taste exactly the same to me. I'd never had both in close proximity before, so I was like "wtf ... this is just like that coffee ... but cold"
02:34:57 <ehird> pikhq: Also, plays well with code using Perl 5's object system directly; it's an extension.
02:35:02 <pikhq> GregorR: ... Wine and *coffee* taste exactly the same to you?
02:35:09 <pikhq> No wonder you don't like either.
02:35:17 <ehird> Wine is disgusting, but coffee is lovely.
02:35:21 <ehird> How on earth can that work? :P
02:35:37 <GregorR> ehird: I'm hyposmic, it severely reduces my ability to taste most beverages. Both taste like bitter, very-slightly-sour water to me.
02:35:47 <zzo38> Warrigal: Let's see if I can, I thought of it before but now I forgot, so I will try again.
02:35:54 <pikhq> ehird: Wine is rather tasty.
02:36:14 <pikhq> ehird: You must have had shit wine.
02:36:29 <pikhq> Or just don't like the taste. That works, too...
02:36:31 <Warrigal> If you can swap two numbers on the stack and you have predecessor, I'm pretty sure it's TC.
02:36:37 * oerjan likes both red wine and coffee, fwiw
02:36:52 <ehird> Wine and beer: It may fuck up both your mind and your liver, but you get to taste a foul taste!
02:37:49 <pikhq> ehird: ... If you abuse it...
02:38:14 <pikhq> Just don't be an idiot.
02:38:17 <ehird> pikhq: Are you telling me you have the ability to drink alcoholic drinks and come out of it 100% unintoxicated?
02:38:23 <zzo38> 0!1!0@1@ can swap two numbers on the stack
02:39:10 <pikhq> Oh, wait. "100% unintoxicated".
02:39:12 <ehird> pikhq is an android.
02:39:27 <pikhq> You probably count any alcohol in the blood as intoxication.
02:39:32 <Warrigal> So implement a tape using two integers. Double them, halve them, and test them for oddness.
02:39:38 <oerjan> zzo38: hm, can a subroutine call a later subroutine?
02:39:51 <oerjan> oh wait, you have infinity
02:40:39 <zzo38> I guess you could make it call a later subroutine (although BlooP can't, but Suxesol doesn't say it can't, so I guess it can).
02:41:01 <oerjan> store and fetch manipulate deep stack, do they?
02:41:08 <ehird> zzo38: BlooP isn't TC, btw.
02:41:24 <zzo38> Store and fetch manipulate the variable storage. Probably I should mention that.
02:41:31 <zzo38> ehird: But FlooP is.
02:41:42 <zzo38> And FlooP is the same as BlooP except it has infinite loops.
02:42:31 <oerjan> zzo38: with a variable storage i expect you can do a minsky machine rather easily
02:43:25 <oerjan> or a bounded tape length bf, may be even easier
02:45:01 <oerjan> the possibility of giving max loop times in advance should be useable for decrementing, i think
02:45:30 <Warrigal> The next question is whether arbitrary Turing machines can be compiled into it and run in polynomial time with their original running times.
02:45:42 <ehird> running times are irrelevant for TCness
02:45:44 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that's what I was thinking too. I thought I had figured it out but I forgot.
02:47:22 <zzo38> You can toggle a single-bit value in a specified cell by 0!1 0@! 0@[0 0@!] (I think)
02:47:36 <oerjan> Warrigal: that seems unlikely if you cannot get to deep stack and have ... wait
02:47:52 <oerjan> zzo38: do you have infinite number of variable cells?
02:47:52 <Warrigal> If there isn't a term, I coin the terms "repaliant" and "polynomially Turing complete".
02:48:18 <Warrigal> Two stacks is as efficient as one tape.
02:48:34 <zzo38> Yes there is a infinite number of variable cells (since numbers are unbounded, if the cell's address is a number then it would be assumed the infinite number of variable cells)
02:48:52 <Warrigal> BF-style doubling and halving are not as efficient as constant-time pushing and popping.
02:49:02 <oerjan> Warrigal: but an integer that can only be incremented cannot implement either a stack or a tape polynomially
02:49:26 <oerjan> zzo38: in that case i think an unbounded brainfuck tape length is also possible
02:49:37 <Warrigal> Then find a way to decrement it.
02:49:51 <oerjan> Warrigal: er, decrementing doesn't help either
02:50:17 <Warrigal> In which case I have no objection to anything you said.
02:51:13 <zzo38> I think I have figured out the function for decrementing the number: 0 0!0[0@[+]1 0!] If I have mistake please notify.
02:51:13 <oerjan> zzo38: and that should also make it possible to do it polynomially as Warrigal suggested
02:51:34 <zzo38> O no, I just realized I wrote it wrong.
02:51:43 <oerjan> or ... yes i think you can
02:51:46 <zzo38> I will fix it and re-post it.
02:52:31 <oerjan> zzo38: i think a bounded cell but unbounded tape length brainfuck implementation with polynomial efficiency may be possible
02:53:07 <oerjan> hm wait even unbounded might be, the decrementing is bad but not superpolynomial...
02:53:31 <zzo38> I think I wrote it right now.
02:53:39 <zzo38> 0 0!0 1![1@0@[+]1 0!]1@
02:56:52 <oerjan> x y ! stores number x in variable y?
02:57:56 <oerjan> i don't see the point of cell 1 there, it is always made 0
02:58:32 <zzo38> Sorry I think I wrote it wrong again.
02:59:03 <zzo38> 0 0!0 1![1@0@[+]1!1 0!]1@
03:00:11 <oerjan> [+] essentially sums the two numbers on top of stack, doesn't it
03:02:49 <oerjan> i think that's correct
03:23:09 <zzo38> In Mathematica Player, it says all interactive content must be generated with the Manipulate command, it says InputField[x,Number] works normally. Does it mean InputField has to be inside of a Manipulate?
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03:27:11 <zzo38> Is this Mathematica code valid: ToExpression[FromCharacterCode[RealDigits[InputField[0,Number],128]]]
03:32:53 <zzo38> Maybe this code is better: Manipulate[ToExpression[FromCharacterCode[RealDigits[codes,128]]],{codes}]
03:33:12 <zzo38> I really don't know, because I don't know Mathematica very well I just try to read the documentation and try to figure it out.
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03:52:58 <zzo38> However, the demonstration guidelines says that InputField is not supported by Mathematica Player but the other page says it does but only numbers. Someone should fix the inconsistency
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05:28:37 <Warrigal> I should get a coherent tab system.
05:29:26 <Warrigal> There was a poll along those lines. "What data structure are your tabs: a queue, a stack, or a map?"
05:29:38 <Warrigal> I was sad, for my tabs were a map.
05:30:34 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood_: RUN, RUN AWAY
05:31:02 <Warrigal> Anyway, I've put some minimal thought to it, and decided that I should use my tabs as a queue.
05:31:40 <Warrigal> Because while a queue guarantees that every page will be visited, this doesn't compare to the topology preservation a stack provides.
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05:32:51 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood_: back when i discovered tvtropes, i was on IE6 with no tabs, so it got to be a stack by necessity. let's just say i rarely ever got back to the top.
05:33:39 <oerjan> a bottomless internet pit
05:34:57 <oerjan> (it expanded way beyond tv long before i got to it)
05:36:51 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature) (warning, contains link to tvtropes ;D)
05:48:52 <oerjan> you're immune? good, then there is someone to rebuild civilization after we get sucked in...
05:49:27 <oerjan> (actually, i'm much less addicted now than i was in the beginning. knock on wood.)
05:50:16 <pikhq> oerjan: It's hard to remain addicted.
05:50:21 <pikhq> Eventually you read the whole thing.
05:50:44 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood_: It's a wiki. A massive wiki.
05:50:50 <pikhq> With interesting things.
05:56:00 <pikhq> You'll note that the same issue happens with that.
05:58:45 <oerjan> i think xkcd had a comic on that too
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06:53:54 <Warrigal> `wolfram melting point of apples
06:54:05 <HackEgo> melting point of apples \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ apples \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ 29.3 °C degrees Celsius \ Unit conversions: \ \ 302.5 K kelvins \ Thermal properties: \ \ melting point optimal storage temperature specific heat \ \ 29.3 °C 1.5 °C 3.64 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
06:54:52 <Warrigal> Make it use forward slashes and collapse them when you have multiple in a row.
06:55:15 <Warrigal> melting point of apples // Input interpretation: // apples / Result: // melting point // . . .
06:55:56 * Warrigal licks a stamp and sticks it to GregorR's transparent, glossy exterior.
06:56:42 * oerjan read that as posterior. or something close.
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10:25:31 <Pthing> the tvtropes realisation isn't novel
10:25:48 <Pthing> the duplication of the panels with changes rung on interested noises
10:25:51 <AnMaster> Pthing, um... I have never had that problem before tvtropes
10:25:59 <AnMaster> so I completely agree with xkcd today
10:26:07 <Pthing> man people have been talking about it ever since the web was invented
10:26:19 <Pthing> that was the whole point behind """surfing the web"""
10:26:42 <AnMaster> Pthing, I tend to not get lost in links while using the web
10:26:47 <Pthing> and people have been ascribing *that* to tvtropes ever since it opened
10:27:05 <Pthing> also the rickrolling mention in the past panel
10:27:14 <AnMaster> the duplication of panel is for the effect.
10:27:17 <Pthing> seems to be there solely as the xkcd version of a laugh track
10:27:47 <Pthing> it doesn't really work?
10:27:52 <Pthing> how is it like rickrolling
10:28:17 <Pthing> the idea of rickrolling was tricking somebody into something unexpected, the basis behind a million practical jokes
10:28:42 <AnMaster> Pthing, yes, but first time you get linked to tvtropes, the effect is unexpected
10:29:02 <Pthing> if you manage to ignore everyone who ever talks about it mentioning that fact
10:29:22 <AnMaster> Pthing, first time I ran into it was before everyone talked about it
10:29:34 <Pthing> then you weren't tricked
10:29:51 <Pthing> HEY LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE IT WON'T TAKE YOU LONG TO READ IT ;)
10:30:13 <Pthing> OH GOODNESS I HAVE ONLY READ A TINY PORTION OF IT AND IT HAS BEEN THREE HOURS, WHAT A TREMENDOUS UNEXPECTED TRICK!!!
10:30:30 <AnMaster> Pthing, quite plausible for tvtropes
10:30:45 <AnMaster> Pthing, I pulled that trick on someone else actually.
10:30:57 <Pthing> congratulations, you are as terrible as randall munroe
10:31:35 <AnMaster> Pthing, it wasn't a very nice person, someone even worse than ehird
10:32:39 * AnMaster wonders why ripping this cd is so slow
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11:43:20 <ehird> 02:18:06 <AnMaster> xkcd is great today!
11:43:25 <ehird> you like the worst xkcd in ages
11:43:35 <ehird> and find great delight enough to share this! with exclamation marks! and "hahah"
11:43:40 <ehird> even the most obnoxious "hahah"
11:43:50 <ehird> and you claim authority on comic rankings.
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11:44:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't. But you shouldn't claim that either.
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11:47:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> even the most ? "hahah" <-- how do you mean obnoxious
11:47:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> even the most obnoxious "hahah" <-- how do you mean obnoxious?
11:47:50 <ehird> 11:43 ehird: even the most obnoxious "hahah"
11:48:24 <ehird> "so true" in response to a piece of alleged humour is among the most retardedly obnoxious phrases the human race can procure
11:48:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but you said "hahah" not "so true"
11:48:48 <ehird> 11:47 ehird: 11:43 ehird: even the most obnoxious "hahah"
11:48:49 <ehird> 11:47 ehird: s/hahah/so true/
11:49:02 <ehird> no, I said hahah the line before
11:50:34 <ehird> AnMaster: your rip is slow because you're using cdparanoia and it reads everything N times.
11:52:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it did find some issues though... man page says a + on the progress bar means "Unreported loss of streaming/other error in read"
11:52:18 <ehird> http://www.plextoramericas.com/index.php/dvd-rw ;; damn, the plextor site is 1990s
11:53:11 <ehird> A plus indicates not only frame jitter, but an unreported, uncorrected loss of streaming in the middle of an atomic read operation. That is, the drive lost its place while reading data, and restarted in some random incorrect location without alerting the kernel. This case is also corrected by Paranoia.
11:53:29 <ehird> http://www.xiph.org/paranoia/faq.html#progbar
11:54:31 <ehird> AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect
11:54:44 <ehird> if you have a !, it's been corrected, but your drive or disc are probably FUBAR.
11:54:59 <ehird> (and thus other instances will go undetected)
11:56:15 <AnMaster> I mean, what does it actually mean
11:56:26 <ehird> that two blocks overlapped properly, but they were skewed (frame jitter).
11:56:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Physically, it means that your CD jittered.
11:56:35 <ehird> Or rather, the laser.
11:57:10 <ehird> 11:54 ehird: AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect
11:57:13 <ehird> I retract this for X's
11:57:23 <ehird> if you have a good drive and it can detect X's all the time, it'll be the best you'll get
11:57:40 <ehird> tbh ripping properly is such a pain that piracy is easier :)
11:58:09 <ehird> then the rip is fine
11:58:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I love the smiley thingy
12:00:30 <ehird> Relatedly: 8-| is the same situation as !, ;-( is the same as eX*V.
12:00:50 <AnMaster> no ;-( is same as V only it seems
12:00:57 <ehird> 11:54 ehird: AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect
12:01:00 <ehird> I meant it's in the same family
12:02:21 * AnMaster listens to http://musicbrainz.org/release/c4479a37-6830-4f3d-8091-b29e173050a5.html
12:02:47 <ehird> using the musicbrainz website as a URI for music?
12:02:49 <AnMaster> track 4 to be specifc, very nice.
12:02:56 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems accurate enough
12:02:59 <ehird> you mean http://musicbrainz.org/track/d57d37d0-4318-42d6-9967-60aed46315bc.html
12:03:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't very good for actually talking about the tracks and such hm
12:03:45 <AnMaster> good for general info about the cd or such though
12:04:08 <ehird> AnMaster: everything's one click away
12:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, two clicks: right click link, select "open in browser"
12:04:43 <ehird> AnMaster: the cd requires that too
12:04:50 <ehird> also, what kind of client doesn't open links in browsers when you click them?
12:05:04 <ehird> "Hurr, clicking should... um... make the link turn pink."
12:05:25 <ehird> how is click-to-open-URL-in-browser ever not sane
12:05:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I often click in the window just to focus it
12:05:44 <AnMaster> sometimes that happens to be a link
12:05:54 <ehird> AnMaster: os x separates focus clicks and inside clicks
12:05:59 <AnMaster> and often I want to select the link instead
12:06:02 <ehird> normally you'd have the same issue with a browser too; that's an X11 problem
12:06:05 <ais523_> ehird: all OSes do that, even Windows
12:06:07 <ehird> so do you do the same for the browser?
12:06:17 <ehird> ais523_: apparently AnMaster begs to differ.
12:06:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't work that way in the browser for some reaso
12:06:29 <ais523_> probably the client's set up to open links even on focus clicks
12:06:38 <ais523_> which probably is a bad idea
12:06:43 <ehird> So basically, you're saying, "insane clients that do X are insane".
12:06:48 <ehird> Which is a very silly thing to do.
12:06:52 <ais523_> but the fix is "open only on non-focusing clicks" rather than "don't open links on clicks at all"
12:07:25 <AnMaster> I often want to copy the link instead
12:07:34 <ehird> Right click, copy link.
12:07:54 <AnMaster> ehird, often end of link detection is imperfect too
12:08:03 <AnMaster> consider a link followed by a .
12:08:06 <ehird> Select the misdetected end, drag to other end of link.
12:08:09 <AnMaster> sometimes that is actually part of the url
12:08:45 <ehird> Here's a screenshot of the Copy URL item:
12:08:56 <ehird> it didn't enter the screenshot
12:08:59 * AnMaster now listens to http://musicbrainz.org/track/9a6e1605-55e3-4e3c-bae5-290f006a5e65.html
12:09:08 <ehird> basically, if you right click on a link you can get a copy URL or whatever, option
12:09:38 <AnMaster> ehird, that is there too *shrug*
12:10:59 <AnMaster> then I just have to double-click the url
12:11:21 <AnMaster> but atm I'm using a GUI client on the bouncer
12:12:09 <AnMaster> anyone remembers "microsoft chat"?
12:13:26 <ehird> It has come to your mind because zzo38 mentioned it yesterday.
12:13:28 * AnMaster looks for his sleeve with http://musicbrainz.org/release/c81f9a16-d42e-40d9-aa87-15f11767a644.html in
12:13:45 <AnMaster> I was just considering what on earth a "GUI irc client" is
12:13:51 <AnMaster> really it sounds rather strange
12:13:59 <AnMaster> considering it is just a text window really
12:14:17 <AnMaster> the comics mode in MS chat must be a "GUI" client though
12:15:02 <AnMaster> I even missed zzo was here yesterday
12:15:06 <ehird> AnMaster: you are using a GUI irc client. it uses shitty control code characters to paint (a) a pane with a label, (b) a window with text, with formatting (irc colours, separating nicknames/times etc) and URLs.
12:15:14 <ehird> and (c) a rich input field
12:15:21 <ehird> and (d) a status line
12:15:34 <AnMaster> ehird, um, atm I'm actually using xchat
12:15:36 <ehird> if you use a fancy one like WeeChat, maybe even a list of items, i.e. the users in the channel.
12:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: then why are you wondering what a GUI irc client is/
12:15:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm wondering if xchat is really that much "GUI"
12:16:54 <ehird> many GUI applications are minimalist
12:17:22 <ehird> really, all curses programs tend to be almost entirely uniformly restricted GUIs grafted on to a vt100
12:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I had to either add nearly all the classical cds I had, or at least add puids/discids to them
12:19:13 <AnMaster> so they couldn't be automatically identified
12:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, for the non-classical cds it was usually no problem at all.
12:19:56 <ehird> Well, it has better coverage now.
12:20:04 <AnMaster> ehird, still about 30 cds to add...
12:20:08 <ehird> Yeah, I'm thinking the main thing it lacks is classical, rather than obscure music.
12:20:14 <AnMaster> however. I will add them next time I listen
12:20:54 <ehird> I'm glad I don't like classical for the mostpart; otherwise tagging would be a bitch.
12:20:59 <AnMaster> ehird, my plan is not to add all 30 or so in one go, but next time I take one out to listen to it anyway I will add it if missing.
12:21:00 <ehird> Way too complicated.
12:21:57 <AnMaster> luckily they are NOT "various artists" (those are a real pain to add!)..
12:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ever added any "various artists" where half of the artists were missing?
12:22:41 <ehird> that's never happened to me. i generally don't listen to compilations so VA cds are rare.
12:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, IMO they should be renamed: complications
12:24:01 <ehird> (the reason i don't listen to compilations is twofold: (a) artistic sentiment blah blah blah (sort of invalid because i shuffle tracks), (b) if i get an album that has the same track, it'll be an evul duplicate)
12:24:08 <AnMaster> especially since it seems the "link artist" popupish thingy got some sort of focus problems
12:24:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ah! you are missing out of the joy of classical here!
12:24:52 <AnMaster> collect the *best recordings of Vivaldi's music*
12:25:08 <AnMaster> personally I'm rather fond of the recordings by City of London Sinfonia.
12:25:29 <ehird> But I don't like classical music… (generally)
12:25:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well, then you are missing out of it
12:25:57 <ehird> AnMaster: by your logic, you're missing out on death metal
12:26:01 <AnMaster> just one canonical performance? Bah.
12:26:44 <AnMaster> but that is still much less than for classical music, where you could consider *all of them* as covers.
12:27:03 <ehird> I'll have you know I only listen to the authentic original recording of 4'33"
12:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't that the all silent one?
12:27:43 <ehird> No, it is not silence.
12:28:05 <ehird> The band consists of everything present that makes noise.
12:29:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″ is missing "In popular culture"
12:30:48 <ehird> and thank god for that
12:31:06 <ehird> [[There was a similar recording titled: "The Best of Marcel Marceau" available in the seventies lasting a bit longer than four minutes and thirty-three seconds.]]
12:31:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Because "In popular culture" is insipid and useless: http://xkcd.com/446/
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12:32:05 <ehird> 12:31 AnMaster: why?
12:32:09 <ehird> you didn't seem to follow up on that
12:32:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> [[There was a similar recording titled: "The Best of Marcel Marceau" available in the seventies lasting a bit longer than four minutes and thirty-three seconds.]]
12:32:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Because "In popular culture" is insipid and useless: http://xkcd.com/446/
12:32:57 <AnMaster> I was half thinking of something else
12:33:05 <AnMaster> so took a second to get what you meant
12:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, it is easy to perform 4'33"
12:34:42 <ehird> using a stopwatch is cheating.
12:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it says the original performance used one
12:35:08 <ehird> Yes. Cage was cheating.
12:35:16 <ehird> [And then the student was enlightened.]
12:36:36 <AnMaster> ehird, this section should be renamed "in popular culture" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″#References_by_other_artists
12:36:50 <ehird> odd definition of popular culture
12:36:58 <ehird> * In 2009 Petri Purho released "4 Minutes and 33 Seconds of Uniqueness", a computer game which can only be won by a player if they are the only person in the world playing it for four minutes and thirty-three seconds.[32]
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13:06:46 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway 4'33" isn't classical music.
13:07:07 <ehird> It is if someone's playing classical music next door.
13:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, the classical period was roughly between 1750 to 1825 according to wikipedia.
13:08:02 <AnMaster> I refuse to use classical in the vulgar sense
13:08:19 <AnMaster> atm I'm listening to music from the romantic period.
13:08:35 <ehird> Great, time-based music classification. All music made from the 80s onwards is hereforth known as "Spatula music".
13:09:10 <ehird> Music has no inherent relation to the time in which it was produced.
13:09:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not classifying it by time, but after classification you will see that the time actually does roughly match
13:10:09 <ehird> I am certain that there is someone out there still producing music exactly like what you'd call classical from that period.
13:10:55 <AnMaster> there was the neoclassical period too
13:11:08 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism
13:11:23 <ehird> "The termination argument behind the TAPL algorithm for subtyping of equirecursive types is not as scary as it sounds"
13:11:39 <AnMaster> ehird, is this haskell related
13:11:53 <ehird> Only insofar as Haskell has ties to type system academia.
13:42:17 <ehird> Not the Game in your face bitch
13:54:56 <GregorR> * Warrigal licks a stamp and sticks it to GregorR's transparent, glossy exterior.
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13:58:51 <GregorR> Why, I don't like ANY of the implications of that :P
13:59:17 <ehird> Warrigal and oerjan would be a perfect match, clearly.
14:23:18 <AnMaster> ehird, adding those "relationships" as in http://musicbrainz.org/release/c81f9a16-d42e-40d9-aa87-15f11767a644.html is a pain
14:23:42 <ehird> Suggest some UI improvements? I've only done light editing of MusicBrainz but it's been quite painless for me
14:24:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Those tags are inconsistent though
14:24:13 <ehird> "No. 2" but "No.1"/"No.2".
14:24:22 <ehird> Some have "suite", some don't
14:24:25 <AnMaster> ehird, the titles? yeah. I didn't add it.
14:24:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I just added the orchestras.
14:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you can see on the yellow stuff, recently edited things
14:26:33 <AnMaster> ehird, fixed them, vote on the edits!
14:26:52 <ehird> Think I'll have to make a new count. I am the notoriously unreliable at remembering such things.
14:27:07 <ehird> Nice if it used OpenID, although not really as I still haven't set a domain up.
14:27:41 <AnMaster> ehird, ah... you can't vote unless you had at least 10 edits accepted
14:27:55 <ehird> i'll see if i still have my account\
14:28:06 <AnMaster> I can't vote yet because I only have one edit accepted so far. I have 45 pending ones.
14:28:18 * ehird attempts to disable tabbing in his browser
14:28:25 <ehird> AnMaster: 45? wow, that's some dedication\
14:28:30 <ehird> I hate this enter key
14:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, also it needs 3 votes to accept. times out after 2 weeks.
14:28:37 <ehird> \ should go above enter, not next to it!
14:28:43 <ehird> DAAAAAAAMN YOU TWO-LINE ENTER!!!!
14:29:05 <AnMaster> where time out action = pass/fail based on votes
14:29:27 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, more than 45 now
14:29:32 <AnMaster> "Found 52 edits matching the current selection."
14:30:41 <AnMaster> that is stuff like adding puids and discids
14:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, since half of the stuff isn't there I'm forced to do this!
14:31:25 <ehird> it's your fault for listening to classical :)
14:32:06 <AnMaster> I cancelled one edit, superseded by a new edit without typo, so down to 51 open edits.
14:32:10 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway http://musicbrainz.org/mod/search/pre/editor.html?userid=467550
14:32:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> DAAAAAAAMN YOU TWO-LINE ENTER!!!! <-- I'm used to two line enter
14:33:00 <ehird> i was but i now prefer the layout where the slightly larger than normal \ key is above a two-key wide enter
14:33:39 <ehird> Could not log in: Either the user name you entered does not exist, or the given password did not match the one stored on the server. Please try again ;; I wish sites would tell you which; it's barely any security gained
14:35:42 <ehird> I wonder how long until I regret disabling tabs
14:40:47 <ehird> because they're actually just a hack for not having a good window manager (eg pwm, fluxbox, pekwm and others can tab windows)
14:40:54 <ehird> i'm going to see if i have a good window manager :)
14:41:25 <AnMaster> "Could not log in: One of these happend: a) The user name you entered does not exist. b) The given password did not match the one stored on the server. c) There was some sort of internal server error. d) Other"
14:41:39 <AnMaster> suggestion for new more ambiguous error :P
14:42:38 <ehird> The login failed because of quantum.
14:42:51 * AnMaster listens to http://musicbrainz.org/track/a906855a-90ab-4ec9-bc85-fb3f1f93bef5.html
14:43:00 * ehird reënables tabs, victim to a bad window manager
14:43:10 <ehird> AnMaster: you should script that. call it now-playing.
14:43:12 <ehird> i'm sure it'll be a hit.
14:43:15 <ehird> everyone will do it.
14:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, extract metadata from vlc somehow?
14:43:57 <ehird> vlc as a music player? how bizarre
14:44:03 <ehird> well okay not that bizarre
14:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird, except I'm playing this from a CD. And I'm using vlc to play the cd
14:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird, so the only info I have on it is the cddb entry
14:44:45 <AnMaster> all it says is "Grieg - Lyric Suite, Op. 54 No.4, March of the Dwarfs"
14:45:02 <AnMaster> when I play a flac that I handled in picard already it will contain the id
14:45:30 <ehird> has anyone else never really used virtual desktops?
14:45:44 <ehird> you know, multiple workspaces
14:45:57 <ehird> i try them every year or so and come back with the impression that it's totally useless with a non-paltry sized screen
14:46:03 <ehird> i'm just wondering if i'm weird
14:46:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I use them a bit, but most stuff on one desktop
14:46:39 <ehird> i wonder if i can make the delay on hovering over the dock before it appears shorter
14:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird, if it was linux you could always do that ;P
14:47:21 <ehird> i -am- switching to linux
14:47:37 <AnMaster> ehird, if gnome, probably by hacking the source, or by gconfedit. if KDE by some well hidden setting
14:47:52 <ehird> the gconf editor is fine tbh
14:47:58 <ehird> i don't think gnome has all that many source-only things
14:48:20 <AnMaster> ehird, bah, stop destroying fine stereotypes!
14:48:23 <ehird> AnMaster: with a lisp machine, by pressing whatever keycombo gives you the menu to click "Edit Source"
14:48:31 <ehird> and changing it immediately :)
14:48:45 <ehird> or, by changing a (defvar dock-hover-delay ...) or whatever in the source
14:48:55 <ehird> or with a gui that changes foo-bar-baz into Foo Bar Baz
14:48:57 <ehird> like M-x customize does
14:49:11 <ehird> after all, lisp machines were pretty much system-wide emacs done right...
14:49:24 <AnMaster> why does scheme use define for both defvar and defun
14:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: because (define (foo x) ...) = (define foo (lambda (x) ...))
14:50:06 <ehird> common lisp is a lisp-2, i.e. function/variable namespaces are separate
14:50:10 <ehird> scheme is a lisp-1, i.e. one namespace for everything
14:50:17 <ehird> languages like python, etc are lisp-1
14:50:26 <ehird> not many things are lisp-2
14:50:33 <ehird> AnMaster: pretty much; with common lisp you can't do
14:50:36 <ehird> (mapcar function ...)
14:50:40 <ehird> (mapcar #'function ...)
14:50:47 <ehird> and you can name variables list and still do (list 1 2 3)
14:50:56 <ehird> give me naming variables "lst" any day
14:51:00 <AnMaster> I guess erlang is erlang-2, kind of
14:51:11 <ehird> AnMaster: i think so
14:51:35 <AnMaster> Variables always start with a capital or _. Atoms start with lower case. BUT you can use single quotes around to make anything an atom
14:51:44 <AnMaster> function names must be valid atoms
14:52:06 <AnMaster> so calling 'To be or not be a function'(X, Y, Z) works
14:52:38 <ehird> AnMaster: in 3 seconds, please highlight me
14:53:13 <ehird> to see if I managed to conquer LimeChat's habit of leaving Growl highlight notifications on the screen until I click them
14:53:19 <ehird> (I did, by fixing it in the Growl settings)
14:53:29 <AnMaster> btw. I'm off for about an hour.
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15:06:08 <ehird> Post-reboot, my mac is running happier and faster. Yay.
15:11:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Success).
15:16:52 <ehird> GregorR: Which part?
15:17:06 <ehird> The exhaust is full of brown stuff.
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15:21:16 <ehird> I wonder if there's a patch you can do to put the Happy Mac logo back on your boot screen.
15:21:44 <GregorR> As well as the olde boot sound?
15:21:56 <GregorR> Even sampled from one of their shit-o speakers so it'll sound right (wrong)
15:22:53 <ehird> GregorR: Sure, the old sound would be nice too.
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15:25:03 * ehird removes two partitions from disk, resizes currently-booted partition to fill their space, without any LVM stuff
15:25:10 <ehird> It's nice to be able to do that.
15:25:13 <ais523> ehird: what were they for?
15:25:22 <ehird> botched arch linux install from a while ago
15:25:29 <ehird> i could use the extra 9GB, i only have like 6GB free
15:25:44 <ehird> hmm more than 9GB if you include the swap i think
15:26:02 <ehird> can any other OS do that, anyway? linux can with lvm
15:26:06 <ehird> but can it with regular partitions?
15:26:16 <ehird> (i.e. partition the disk while booted into it, then resize the currently booted partition)
15:26:52 <ehird> i'll get 10.8GB back for this, hoorah
15:28:48 <ehird> bleah, i can delete the linux partition but not the linux swap one
15:37:37 <ehird> eh, i'll just leave the swap partition for now
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16:00:23 <oerjan> <ehird> you like the worst xkcd in ages
16:00:33 * oerjan swats ehird without mercy -----###
16:00:43 <ehird> IT'S LIKE RICKROLLING BUT YOU'RE TRAPPED ALL DAY HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
16:01:05 <ehird> Other analogies made by Munroe at the time include "HAVING SEX IS LIKE JUMPING OF A BRIDGE; BUT YOU'RE HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE AND NOT JUMPING OF A BRIDGE."
16:01:23 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, you can do that with normal partitions.
16:01:42 <ehird> oerjan: It's a Researched Fact.
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16:01:54 <pikhq> parted and resize2fs.
16:02:15 <pikhq> Heck, even fdisk would work if you're willing to deal with the unsafety involved.
16:20:52 <oerjan> <GregorR> Why, I don't like ANY of the implications of that :P
16:27:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> Post-reboot, my mac is running happier and faster. Yay. <-- doesn't this bother you?
16:27:33 <AnMaster> though I had such issues under one kernel. 2.6.21 I think it was.
16:27:43 <ehird> AnMaster: It would if I had not started an awful lot of applications before.
16:27:48 <AnMaster> (such issues = reboot fixing it)
16:28:08 <ehird> Memory management not picking up stuff, maybe some useless daemons left behind.
16:28:16 <ehird> Definitely, OS X's memory management could be better.
16:29:29 <AnMaster> ehird, similar. I remember having memory fragmentation issues under 2.6.21 (or around there). Some later kernel fixed it by putting movable user pages in one part of the memory and fixed pages for DMA and such in another. Making it easier to free up a contiguous memory block when needed.
16:29:49 <ehird> But really, I just open too much stuff for my RAM.
16:29:54 <ehird> AnMaster: That wasn't intentional, btw
16:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure you didn't intend "mm" as a joke yeah
16:30:43 <ehird> anyway, it's been sailing smoothly since; subjectively the minimalisation I did of the UI beforehand probably helps the feeling.
16:31:38 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, since 2.6.26 or something linux begins putting movable pages in one end and fixed pages in the other (this is a simplification, there is more to things than this), this reduces memory fragmentation quite a bit iirc.
16:32:10 <ehird> OS X's memory management is probably good enough technically; just not tuned for UI responsiveness.
16:32:26 <AnMaster> I had "slow down after some weeks turned on" before that anti-fragmentation thing
16:32:46 <AnMaster> especially disk IO used to suffer
16:33:42 <AnMaster> my only-partly-educated guess is that it was harder for the DMA stuff to find large regions when doing stuff like copying large files between two disks and such
16:36:15 <AnMaster> ehird, ah seems like it was 2.6.24 that fixed it
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17:23:35 * ehird tries to hide menu bar so that his desktop can be 100% gray
17:24:04 <ehird> obsessive-compulsive? unpossible!
17:40:48 <AnMaster> ehird, <insert comment (in order to annoy ehird) about how easy doing that would be under X>
17:41:16 <ehird> notably, I do not choose operating systems based on whether I can hide their menu bar or not
17:41:41 <ehird> damn i was trying to troll you into a tirade about freedom
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17:54:18 <ehird> My new desktop: small, http://imgur.com/VdWzh.png; big, http://imgur.com/n5MxZ.png.
18:00:45 <ehird> No. I don't think so.
18:03:56 <ehird> No. I don't think so.
18:04:03 <AnMaster> btw, how did you hide the HD icon thingy?
18:04:20 <AnMaster> or do I misremember, and it is only Classic MacOS that had it
18:04:26 <ehird> What is the HD icon thingy?
18:04:43 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_Desktop.png <-- it's there
18:04:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Finder → Preferences → General → untick "Hard disks" from "Show these items on the Desktop:".
18:05:23 <ehird> I also disabled the 3D dock, so now it's a lean, mean, autohiding, semi-transparent black, white-bordered-with-curve application switching-and-launching machine.
18:07:01 <AnMaster> can you get the recycle bin on the desktop instead of in the dock in OS X? Just wondering
18:07:25 <ehird> Sure, I guess; make a shortcut to ~/.Trash
18:07:35 <ehird> You probably won't be able to evict it from the Dock, though.
18:11:48 <pikhq> ehird: Needs more K.
18:12:01 <ehird> pikhq: What do you want me to do; heat up my monitor?
18:13:04 <ehird> Strangely, the Graphite theme, though less colourful than Blue, does not leave me feeling more spartan. Back to the prettier Blue.
18:13:09 <ehird> pikhq: So what did you really mean? :-P
18:13:33 <pikhq> A sort of K desktop environment.
18:17:07 <pikhq> And so's my 3D WM.
18:19:57 <ehird> pikhq: you're using a 3D WM?
18:20:09 <ehird> congrats, you hate your sense of usability
18:21:43 <pikhq> Strictly speaking, all that it's doing could be done soley with 2D.
18:21:50 <pikhq> It's merely using OpenGL for speed's sake.
18:22:02 <pikhq> (the fanciest thing it's doing is Exposé-like)
18:24:33 <ehird> pikhq: I thought you used a tiling WM.
18:24:57 <pikhq> I changed my mind on a whim.
18:25:18 <ehird> So… Misguided but well-intentioned attempt at usability → shitty, mass-produced glitzy WM.
18:26:18 <pikhq> Seriously, the only feature of it that requires any compositing that I use at all is the Exposé-like thing...
18:26:31 <ehird> Shush, you. It's still traditional. :P
18:27:04 <pikhq> I thought you were accusing me of using the shitty cube desktop.
18:27:13 <pikhq> And other such completely useless glitz.
18:27:36 <ehird> I have to concede that I haevn't yet used anything better than the traditional floating windows model.
18:37:42 <lambdabot> [[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[]...
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18:44:52 <zzo38> Which esolangs of each inventor do you like best/worst of each?
18:46:10 <ehird> Gee, I'll just research and compile a gigantic list. Right now.
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19:09:59 <zzo38> I now defined a few variations of Suxesol program language (all are optional).
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19:14:40 <ehird> you really like options don't you
19:15:35 <zzo38> Yes those are possible variations on this program language, you can use whichever one you prefer for the case you are working with.
19:16:10 <ehird> zzo38: you should add a configuration option to one of your projects where you can set the code of the program to what you want so it does what you want
19:16:55 <zzo38> I'm not sure I understand you fully.
19:17:48 <ehird> zzo38: well, if you want a program to be 100% configurable
19:17:51 <ehird> then you can do like this:
19:18:01 <ehird> settings['programcode'] = read(this_file)
19:18:07 <ehird> then when it changes
19:18:15 <ehird> execute(this_file);exit()
19:18:28 <ehird> so you can patch the source how you want, thus removing the need for any other configuration options
19:18:59 <zzo38> I have made various programs. I have added a Forth interpreter to MegaZeux.
19:19:22 <ehird> what's that got to do with what i said?
19:19:56 <zzo38> ehird: No, that won't work very well, if you want different program codes you just get the source-codes and re-write it
19:20:11 <ehird> zzo38: but you practically make it do that anyway
19:21:18 <zzo38> What I meant is that you can add stuff to the program using Forth in this way. Not re-writing the entire program but you can add events to run at the hooking points in order to modify how parts of the program works.
19:22:40 <AnMaster> just make the system completely hot-patchable
19:22:57 <AnMaster> which reminds me, I must get the genera thingy working
19:23:05 <ehird> genera on linux is amusing
19:23:08 <ehird> you have to emulate linux
19:23:10 <ehird> which emulates a lisp machine
19:23:17 <ehird> because genera craps all over your environment :D
19:23:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I know, so I'll wait until I have more disk space
19:23:29 <ehird> just put a minimal install on there
19:23:33 <ehird> like 1GB total including genera
19:23:39 <zzo38> I found a web-site of not making any sense at http://ltsun.com/demo/index.php It includes menus that don't make sense, text overlapping other text, some Japanese text with a comment saying not Korean, and other strange things. This is TRWTF
19:23:40 <ehird> you can dispense with window mangement
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19:23:44 <ehird> use genera as the root window
19:23:51 <AnMaster> still haven't got a replacement disk
19:23:58 <ehird> zzo38: it is obviously a demo page
19:24:16 <ehird> LTSun-Engine was designed in response to the unanswered demand of clients and informed web users seeking a way to create, edit, manage, and optimize web content without the cumbersome requirements of other existing CMS.
19:25:06 <ehird> it's marketing bullshit
19:25:10 <ehird> i was just copying from ltsun.com
19:26:28 <AnMaster> was just commenting on how absurd it was
19:31:48 <ehird> In this screenshot, I show off my classy new Dock: http://imgur.com/iCOI4.png
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19:34:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the mouldy orange thingy?
19:34:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Ummm........ do you know what a lime is?
19:34:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I never ate one. I do know the outside of them as they are in the store.
19:35:08 <ehird> Right, well, it's not a lime.
19:35:12 <ehird> It's a mouldy orange.
19:35:56 <AnMaster> so I guess that is mouldyorangechat then?
19:36:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the green bird?
19:36:20 <ehird> That would be a duck...
19:36:29 <ehird> His name is Adiumy.
19:36:34 <AnMaster> right, wasn't sure, what with ducks usually not being green!
19:36:51 <ehird> Adiumy comes in multiple colours.
19:38:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the website for adium? if it is adium.im as wikipedia says, there is dns trouble for it. Even using opendns
19:38:39 <ehird> The hideous dark-blue/light-blue chimera is an application where you input a white person and you input a black person, it merges them.
19:38:46 <ehird> The compass is a GPS application.
19:39:06 <ehird> The arrow pointing to the computer on the folder controls the hard drive's shock resistance protection.
19:39:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what Finder is and I know what Safari is
19:39:15 <ehird> The trash can is, uh, a trash can.
19:39:33 <AnMaster> what is that unusual folder? Really
19:39:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Everything I said after "The hideous" until the start of this line is bullshit. Apart from that thing about the trash can.
19:40:53 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, you know you can't quit finder from any menu?
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19:41:23 <AnMaster> ehird, however, using that speech command thing, you could (at least in Tiger) tell it to "quit application finder" and it would do it
19:41:41 <AnMaster> you could restart it again using "open finder" or something similar
19:42:35 <ehird> Eh, I added Cmd-Q to the Finder with a hack a while back.
19:42:42 <ehird> That was Tiger though.
19:43:23 <AnMaster> guess not, never used under OS X iirc
19:44:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Incidentally, that duck opens its eyes when you run it.
19:44:39 <ehird> What's argh about that? :P
19:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, just a personal hate for icons like the thunderbrid one having a number for number of unread mail (almost always just new spam) and similar
19:45:31 <ehird> oh, it's nothing like that
19:45:40 <ehird> it just changes to open eyes when the app is open, closes them when disconnected
19:45:43 <ehird> it's just a useful indicator
19:46:14 <ehird> if you get a message it does jump up like all applications do when they notify, and does get a little stamp with the number of unread messages, but generally you look at those rather quickly with IM (and you can disable the notification, leaving just the banner)
19:46:22 <AnMaster> ehird, decided what irc client you will use under linux btw?
19:46:25 <ehird> it might flap its wings too; I never look. I just use the Growl notifications.
19:46:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Hadn't even thought about it. Maybe xchat-gnome.
19:46:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you prefer gnome over xmonad?
19:47:08 <ehird> My pick of xchat-gnome isn't inherently gnome-related, it just has a leaner UI.
19:47:26 <ehird> Meh. I might check out KDE 4.3 or whatever.
19:47:43 <ehird> KDE 3 I'm no fan of. It's just cluttery.
19:48:36 <ehird> Requirements: Minimum of 8 years of the following experience: [...] •Microsoft Reporting services 2005
19:48:40 <ehird> — http://newjersey.craigslist.org/eng/1255128352.html
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20:47:04 <ehird> http://imgur.com/X1Hi1.gif
20:47:08 <ehird> L1, L2, RAM, hard disk.
20:47:12 <ehird> One pixel per nanosecond.
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21:06:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, first example of ATHR:
21:06:34 <AnMaster> $ ./efunge tests/athr/02_spawn_simple.b98
21:06:34 <AnMaster> TEST: Will test S followed by Q in the old thread, waiting for input in new thread, then exiting.
21:06:52 <AnMaster> also I need a new host, the current one is down
21:07:03 <AnMaster> and will so be forever (all data is backed up yes)
21:09:24 <AnMaster> "IInn noelwd!!" btw is "In new!" and "In old!" mixing up
21:13:46 <AnMaster> ehird, since the actual pause isn't deterministic, it sometimes ends up as that and other variants.
21:14:34 <AnMaster> it does seem to end up with "IInn noelwd!!" rather often though, *shrug*
21:27:56 <AnMaster> Pthing, ATHR is a fingerprint I'm working on, meant to help befunge keeping it's market share by allowing it to take advantage of multiple cpus/cores.
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21:28:21 <Pthing> but what's the IInn noelwd
21:28:37 <AnMaster> Pthing, two threads printing at once
21:28:43 <AnMaster> thus overwriting each other partly
21:34:31 <Sgeo> AnMaster, "Sgeo" is also mixed up in a similar way
21:35:25 <ehird> Sgeo: Didn't you used to be Oegs or something.
21:36:36 <Sgeo> Um, not that you should have ever seen
21:36:52 <ehird> I think I read it on the Creatures wiki. Also, where does "should" enter in to it?
21:37:01 <ehird> Am I not meant to tread on your kinky sex websites or something?
21:37:06 <ehird> Aww, I preferred it when you were confused.
21:37:22 <Sgeo> It's part of my AIM name, and my name on Wulfram
21:37:40 <Sgeo> Two things which I think you didn't know me from
21:52:53 <AnMaster> with async thread and when you are testing thread sync you get some funny messages: "?tupni eht htiw hguone wols erew uoy erus ,eulav detcepxe daer t'ndiD :DAB YLEKIL"
21:53:03 <AnMaster> I assume you can read backwards without problems
21:54:19 <ehird> No I can't; but irb(1) can.
21:54:58 <ehird> I compulsively use it for things like reversing or doing basic calculations.
21:55:16 <AnMaster> rev(1) is easier, not sure if it is GNU specific or not.
21:55:18 <ehird> I could also use frink and do:
21:55:21 <ehird> "?tupni eht htiw hguone wols erew uoy erus ,eulav detcepxe daer t'ndiD :DAB YLEKIL" -> reverse
21:55:52 <ehird> AnMaster: http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/; a clever calculator/programming languages that knows a metric fuckton of units.
21:56:00 <ehird> (But not the metric fuckton, unfortunately.)
21:56:13 <ehird> AnMaster: It also has things like easy googling, regexps, date processing etc
21:56:35 <ehird> It's for doing calculations involving tangible data from places; conversions and calculations with glue.
21:56:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Unfortunately not; I'm not sure why, though; you could ask him, I suppose.
21:56:52 <ehird> It's Java, though, so you could decompile it.
21:57:21 <ehird> Said person is also behind http://futureboy.us/mithenge/, which is delightfully pointless, especially as it doesn't benefit him.
22:06:22 <ehird> I dislike how LimeChat includes ;s at the end of links.
22:11:58 <ehird> But that would be work.
22:11:59 <Sgeo> I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients
22:12:05 <Sgeo> I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients
22:12:12 <ehird> Sgeo: But that makes you sound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French !
22:14:03 <Sgeo> ugh, damn thing won't stay in
22:14:54 <Sgeo> Why is Basic Instructions down?!
22:15:13 <AnMaster> Sgeo, basic instructions for what?
22:15:48 <Sgeo> And if you say that you know, and were making a joke, sorry
22:16:07 <ehird> Sgeo: AnMaster never know.
22:16:12 <ehird> Basic Instructions is funny though.
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22:16:51 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> ugh, damn thing won't stay in <-- then what was that about?
22:17:02 <ehird> It's what HE said!
22:17:22 <Sgeo> AnMaster, the ethernet wire keeps falling out
22:17:34 <ehird> (By ethernet wire he means penis.)
22:17:37 <AnMaster> is that why you repeated "<Sgeo> I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients" ?
22:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't believe that :P
22:17:56 <Sgeo> AnMaster, yes, I didn't think it came through
22:17:59 <ehird> That's because you don't get jokes.
22:18:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I realised it was a poor attempt at humour yes.
22:18:34 <ehird> He means it for serious.
22:18:58 <AnMaster> since the discussion was about what you said
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22:19:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, fixed the åäö bug yet?
22:20:06 <GregorR> When did you first report said bug?
22:20:21 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:20:26 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:20:36 <ehird> GregorR: two days ago.
22:20:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, it fails for unicode on the command
22:20:51 <ehird> Not on the command.
22:20:52 <ehird> On the filesystem.
22:21:08 <GregorR> That's really bizarre, actually ...
22:21:15 <ehird> GregorR: hg encoding issues, I presume.
22:21:16 <AnMaster> ehird, so fetch is broken if file contains åöä
22:21:25 <GregorR> Except hg has no encoding issues ... at least, not that I've ever seen ...
22:21:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, also your client was connected, so I assume you read the away log with the highlights
22:21:34 <ehird> GregorR: Never seen? Aren't we seeing them now? :P
22:22:07 <GregorR> ehird: There are a trillion other potential problems in this setup.
22:22:10 <AnMaster> so how do I reliably get a message through that you will read next time you connect to the bouncer or look at the client or whatever?
22:22:12 <ehird> GregorR: Do not be insolent! You must not displease AnMaster.
22:22:20 <ehird> SERVE HIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT COMMUNICATION DEMANDS.
22:22:36 <AnMaster> ehird, sending a /msg to me means I will *sooner or later* read it.
22:23:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway, unicode is broken for stuff like `quote too
22:23:12 <ehird> because quote writes to the filesystem
22:23:13 <GregorR> OH, I think I know the issue then.
22:23:15 <ehird> AnMaster: addquote.
22:23:25 <GregorR> The LOG won't accept unicode, I believe.
22:23:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, okay, make that work?
22:23:46 <ehird> GregorR: but `echo bütt works.
22:23:58 <ehird> that doesn't go in log
22:24:00 <GregorR> OK, I have not a fucking clue what the problem is :P
22:24:12 <GregorR> As I can commit changes with unicode in the log here :P
22:24:22 <GregorR> Not right now, I have other sh** to do.
22:24:22 <ehird> With your magical debugging mind.
22:24:34 <ehird> You have other shasterisksasterisks?
22:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, attach gdb to everything on the system.
22:25:15 <AnMaster> ehird, quite possible with a serial cable or a firewire one
22:25:29 <ehird> then that'd become part of the system and you'd have to debug that too
22:25:32 <ehird> as well as the debugging computer
22:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you could run it in qemu and attach gdb
22:25:55 <ehird> that's the definition of a system
22:25:57 <ehird> interconnected components
22:26:06 <ehird> AnMaster: that would work if the emulation was perfect; it's not
22:26:10 <ehird> it has holes into the above system
22:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, only well guarded holes
22:26:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know about that. but that is what YOUR MOM said.
22:26:58 <ehird> GregorR: Unlike AnMaster's attempt.
22:27:09 <AnMaster> agreed. I'm not used to that sort of memes.
22:27:21 <AnMaster> all your mom are belong to dead memes
22:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, Can haz for great justice?
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23:31:35 <AnMaster> ehird, are you back yet? I have a question for you
23:33:27 <AnMaster> do you know the fingerprint HRTI for befunge 98? If not: it provides a millisecond accuracy timer (at best). However modern computers can easily manage accuracy around a few nanoseconds for timers. Yet HRTI is specified in milliseconds and can't use it.
23:34:00 <AnMaster> My question thus is: What would be a good unit if I were to add high resolution time measurement to a new fingerprint
23:34:14 <AnMaster> would nanoseconds be enough or should one future proof it by going for picoseconds or such
23:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: planck times
23:38:48 <ehird> it's befunge, why does it have to be practical?
23:39:02 <AnMaster> how much would one second be in plack times?
23:39:10 <AnMaster> would it fit in a 32-bit integer?
23:39:16 <pikhq> Or maybe petatimes; planck times are *small*.
23:39:32 <ehird> AnMaster: 1 planck time is the minimum unit of time that makes sense
23:39:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the use here is for a timeout
23:39:43 <ehird> in smaller units, physics gets all quantum and shit
23:39:46 <ehird> AnMaster: planck times dammit
23:40:09 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway one planck time is um
23:40:13 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Can you express even one millisecond in a 32-bit singed integer using planck times?
23:40:19 <ehird> 1 attosecond is 10^-18 seconds
23:40:27 <ehird> and 1 attosecond is 10^26 planck times
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23:40:29 <ehird> you do the mathematic
23:40:35 <ehird> AnMaster: a millisecond is an aeon
23:40:41 <oerjan> no, _i_ do the mathematics
23:40:53 <ehird> oerjan: AnMaster is asking whether he can represent 1ms in 32-bit signed integers in planck times
23:40:56 <ehird> i'm responding "fuck no!"
23:41:09 <oerjan> `google 1 ms in planck time
23:41:11 <HackEgo> 106, 1 megasecond (11.6 days), Ms, month = 2.6 x 106 s .... [edit] External links. Exploring Time from Planck time to the lifespan of the universe ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(time) - [17]Cached - [18]Similar
23:41:20 <ehird> 23:40 ehird: 1 attosecond is 10^-18 seconds
23:41:20 <ehird> 23:40 ehird: and 1 attosecond is 10^26 planck times
23:41:28 <ehird> i don't think google will work with units that huge.
23:41:32 <ehird> (as in, 1 ms in it)
23:41:36 <HackEgo> 10. [PDF] \ [42]THE PLANCK SCALE
23:41:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, expressed in planck times, what is the largest time unit you can fit into a signed 32 bit integer. Expressed as a reasonable unit (attseconds, millseconds or whatever)
23:41:49 <ehird> Frink probably has it.
23:41:52 <ehird> Want me to use Frink?
23:41:57 <oerjan> `calc 1 ms in planck time
23:41:58 <HackEgo> 106, 1 megasecond (11.6 days), Ms, month = 2.6 x 106 s .... [edit] External links. Exploring Time from Planck time to the lifespan of the universe ...
23:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you realise how COLOSSALLY SMALL a planck time is
23:42:22 <ehird> It is the time required for light to travel, in a vacuum, a distance of 1 Planck length.[1]
23:42:23 <AnMaster> ehird, do you really *understand* that?
23:42:33 <oerjan> hmph, google doesn't have planck time as a unit, it seems
23:42:38 <ehird> 1 planck length is approximately 1.616252 x 10^-35 meters
23:43:13 <ehird> because it's too small
23:43:15 <ehird> and the resulting number is too big
23:43:22 <AnMaster> ehird, W|A can convert planck times I bet
23:43:22 <oerjan> ehird: rubbish, it's just exponential notation
23:43:44 <ehird> http://www24.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+ms+in+planck+times
23:43:55 <oerjan> `wolfram 1 ms in planck times
23:44:05 <HackEgo> 1 ms in planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 ms millisecond to Planck times \ Result: \ \ 1.855 1040 Planck times \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1000 µs microseconds \ Interpretation: \ \ time \ Corresponding quantity: \ \ Distance x traveled by light in a vacuum from x 186 miles 300 km kilometers \
23:44:06 <ehird> AnMaster: 1.8550000000000000000e+40 planck times
23:44:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, a bit outside reasonable range to express
23:44:23 <AnMaster> but that is less than a gogolplex right?
23:44:32 <ehird> yes, I wasn't quite thinking straight
23:44:36 <oerjan> it's even less than a googol
23:44:37 <ehird> AnMaster: representing 18550000000000000762995842968505615908864 is trivial with bignums btw
23:44:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but this fingerprint should work on stuff like CCBI and such too
23:44:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant expressed interest in it
23:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, however CCBI uses 32-bit signed integers
23:45:21 <ehird> push it as multiple stack elements
23:45:33 <ehird> i'm sick and tired of befunge not having enough esoteric fingerprints
23:45:42 <ehird> hmm actually planck times are rather reasonable
23:45:46 <ehird> 1 second = 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048 planck times
23:45:49 <ehird> that number's peanuts
23:45:51 <AnMaster> so what is a reasonable accuracy for timeouts? nanoseconds or picoseconds? I want to future proof it for the next 20 years or so
23:45:52 <ehird> physics sure is shaky :D
23:46:06 <ehird> AnMaster: PLANCK TIMES
23:46:15 <ehird> Fuck! Practical! Units! This! Is! Befunge!
23:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, this one has some esotericness.
23:46:27 <ehird> if it's not planck times, it's not enough
23:46:31 <AnMaster> ehird, to sync threads you use books.
23:46:36 <ehird> AnMaster: in 20 years we may have a singularity.
23:46:46 <ehird> so you need the smallest quantity you can think of
23:46:48 <ehird> → planck times!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:47:22 <ehird> two years isn't futureproofing
23:47:26 <ehird> just do planck times!
23:47:31 <ehird> it's just a few stack elements
23:47:49 <AnMaster> "1.0 nanoseconds (1.0 ns) – cycle time for frequency 1 GHz, radio wavelength 0.3 m" says wikipedia. So on a modern CPU nanoseconds would be enough, on a future one in some years, maybe you need the next step down
23:47:54 <AnMaster> but probably not more than picoseconds
23:48:02 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:48:07 <ehird> You have to go more than a step down.
23:48:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but currently we are scaling cores, not speed
23:48:23 <ehird> PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PL
23:48:26 <ehird> ANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—TIMES
23:48:36 <oerjan> <ehird> 1 second = 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048 planck times <-- something tells me the part past the first zeros isn't accurate ;D
23:48:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I WANT THIS TO BE IMPLEMENTABLE TO EXPRESS SOMETHING LIKE "2 second timeout" on an implementation with 32 bit signed integers.
23:49:07 <oerjan> and indeed, probably not more than at most one of the zeros
23:49:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Then don't fucking ask #esoteric.
23:49:15 <ehird> oerjan: accurate enough :P
23:49:41 <AnMaster> btw, expressing 10^40 in befunge would be a rather long string
23:49:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Maybe you should read the channel name again... #esoteric... as in esoteric... as in abnormal... as in you're writing a goddamn befunge fingerprint
23:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes... correct. but iirc you said you liked practical esolangs
23:50:12 <ehird> that meant something VERY different
23:50:26 <ehird> a dead esolang is not an uninteresting esolang with some libraries that happen to be fucking boring
23:50:31 <ehird> s/dead eso/practical eso/
23:50:38 <ehird> (mixing of windows...)
23:50:45 <oerjan> > logBase 2 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048
23:50:46 <ehird> a practical esolang is a language designed for real use using weird concepts
23:51:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: 161 bits is enough for a second
23:51:16 <oerjan> so, 256 should be enough for everyone *ducks*
23:51:54 <oerjan> > 2^256/1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048/86400/365.2425
23:52:19 <oerjan> number of years in 2^256 planck times
23:52:41 <AnMaster> `wolfram number of years in 2^256 planck times
23:52:49 <HackEgo> number of years in 2^256 planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 115 792 089 237 316 195 423 570 985 008 687 907 853 269 984 665 640 564 039 457 584 007 913 129 639 936 Planck times to years \ Result: \ \ 1.98 1026 years \ Additional conversion: 33 \ \ 6.243 10 seconds \ \ Comparison as age: \ \ 1.4 1016 universe
23:53:04 <AnMaster> not sure it interpreted it right
23:53:09 <oerjan> hm it doesn't seem to agree
23:53:10 <AnMaster> but if it did, yeah enough for everyone
23:53:19 <lambdabot> 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639...
23:53:47 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Real./' [infixl 7] of a section
23:53:54 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] of a section
23:54:08 <oerjan> * and / are both left associative with the same precedence
23:54:29 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Real.^' [infixr 8] of a section
23:54:41 <oerjan> ^ is higher, as expected
23:55:07 <oerjan> `wolfram 1 second in planck times
23:55:14 <HackEgo> 1 second in planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 second to Planck times \ Result: \ \ 1.855 1043 Planck times \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1000 ms milliseconds \ Interpretation: \ \ time \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Distance x traveled by light in a vacuum from x 186 282 miles 299 792 km kilometers
23:55:52 <oerjan> it doesn't agree with ehird above :)
23:56:10 <ehird> note that `wolfram is broken.
23:56:15 <ehird> it skips out formatting
23:56:17 <oerjan> > 2^256/1.855e43/86400/365.2425
23:56:23 <ehird> oerjan: 1.855 1043 = 1.855 x 10^43
23:56:31 <ehird> the lesson is: don't use `wolfram
23:56:39 <oerjan> ehird: of course i can guess that, it's still not what you pasted above
23:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, the lesson is: bug GregorR to make it handle superscript
23:57:12 <ehird> the lesson is irc is not a browser.
23:57:37 <AnMaster> the real lesson is that we will argue about what the real lesson is.
23:57:55 <oerjan> ehird: also, i was never confused about what w|a's answer meant, anyhow
23:59:07 <oerjan> anyway, that's quite a bit longer than the time since the big bang
23:59:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it larger or not then
23:59:39 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
23:59:50 <AnMaster> I think that is too large to write out